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foreigners and Jewish people were included in the program, and he makes special reference to the activities of the Defendants Brandt and Brack. We come now to Page 99 of the document book, Document No- 3059, which is offered as Prosecution's Exhibit 558. This is a document which has been before the Court before. At tha... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 2,970,000 | 2,970,500 |
the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America against Karl Brandt, at all, defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 30 June 1947, 0930, Justice Beals, presiding. THE MARSHAL:Persons in the courtroom will please find their seats. The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal I, Milita... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 2,970,450 | 2,970,950 |
President, may I make a brief urgent application? During the afternoon session of 13 May, page 7581 of the German record, I have stated that after long efforts I had succeeded to find the author of the opinion which was given in connection with DocumentNO-205upon which Brack has worked. This witness is now residing in ... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 2,970,900 | 2,971,400 |
is here and then submit it to the Tribunal. Obviously, that is impossible to deal with by way of correspondence. Since December until April I have tried to get his address. I always receive my replies three or four weeks too late. THE PRESIDENT:Dr. Froschmann does not desire to call this doctor as a witness but simply ... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 2,971,350 | 2,971,850 |
time? AAt the present time I am an assistant of the University of Utrecht. QIn what capacity? AThe capacity of an anatomical assistant on the medical and anatomical laboratory. QWitness, during the course of this interrogation inasmuch as we are both speaking in the English language, if you will kindly hesitate for a m... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 2,971,800 | 2,972,300 |
five months in Haren I was transported to Utrecht and in Utrecht I had the trial for the spy work case. In these two trials I was detached. The Germans called that -- I don't remember the name -- "Abtrennung", I was Abtrennung and then after five months in Utrecht they transported me to Armersfoerth, and in Armersfoert... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 2,972,250 | 2,972,750 |
to work in, I can do the work." So he said, "From now on you are an assistant of the hospital." And from other people, prisoners of the camp, I heard that I was now an assistant of Dr. Hagen and that Dr. Hagen would do experimental work about typhus and there should be built a laboratory for me, but it was at that time... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 2,972,700 | 2,973,200 |
now this job of yours fell through as assistant to Dr. Haagen what did you do then? ASo i had nothing to do and then I met George Bogartz who was a prisoner, too, and a Belgian surgeion and he had to make the autopsies for the hospital, the normal autopsies, who were ordered by the prisoner physicians. When somebody wa... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 2,973,150 | 2,973,650 |
table and they were filmed again and they were also taking photograms. QWas it obvious from the autopsy just what the cause of death was in the case of these two corpses? AI discussed it afterwards with Dr. Bogartz and we came to the conclusion that this man was poisoned with a gas effecting the respiratory intestines,... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 2,973,600 | 2,974,100 |
the Luftwaffe. QDid Professor Hirt wear a uniform when he was at the camp? AI don't think so. I mean the two or three times I saw him he was in knickerbockers. QI see. Now after the 2 autopsies on the gypsies did you ever perform any other autopsies on gypsies who had supposedly been poisoned by gas? ANo sir. QDid you ... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 2,974,050 | 2,974,550 |
time attended one such autopsy, accompanied by a member of the camp and a blond lady, to when he obviously intended to show the camp. In that connection, witness, let me ask you was an autopsy in the concentration camp of Natzweiler something that attracted particular attention, or were corpses autopsied there on frequ... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 2,974,500 | 2,975,000 |
in the camp it started. Q.Could you tell the Tribunal, witness, perhaps you know it because of your connection with the camp physicians, how many patients there were in the camp at that time? A.I do not know that. I cannot give any effective number of these patients. Q.Do you know, witness, whether, during the course o... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 2,974,950 | 2,975,450 |
of some sort? A.Yes, sir. Q.The first one by the Wehrmacht? A.Yes, sir. Q.The second one by the Luftwaffe? A.Yes, sir. QAnd then as I understand you were acquitted upon both charges? AYes Sir. QHow long after that was it before you were taken in custody and sent to Natzweiler? AI was already in custody. I never came fr... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 2,975,400 | 2,975,900 |
who came in under that decree? AYes, only for the people who came in under that decree. QDid you ever see a document or paper of any kind while you were in the camp which denoted the type of custody under which you were held, whether you were hold as a political prisoner, a bible researcher, or a professional criminal ... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 2,975,850 | 2,976,350 |
inArmersfoerth. QI am speaking of Germany now. AIn germany in Narzweiler and afterwards in Dachau. QYour statements therefore only refer to the camps of Natzweiler and Dachau? AYes, sir. QIf I now put to you, witness, that a camp physician of another camp has succeeded in getting a large number of Nacht und Nebel inmat... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 2,976,300 | 2,976,800 |
certificate from Captain Roy A. Martin, captain Medical Corps, Prison Physician, U. S. Army, stating that the defendant Herta Oberhauser is a patient in the 385th station hospital, U. S. Army. The diagnosis is acute gastroenteritis. The Secretary will file the certificate. The Tribunal will now be in recess. (A recess ... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 2,976,750 | 2,977,250 |
documents have already been offered to the Tribunal and marked for identification and copies delivered to defense counsel. I see no occasion for any further delay in the proceedings. DR. GAWLIK:Mr. President, it is not a question of the submission of the documents, but as long as the documents were only offered for ide... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 2,977,200 | 2,977,700 |
not you were given a trial after your arrest by the Gestapo for underground activities? A.Yes. Q.You were given a trial? A.No. Q.Well, did they merely keep you in prison or did they release you after having arrested you in August 1940? A.I was freed by the Dutch police. Later I was rearrested again on 13 November 1940 ... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 2,977,650 | 2,978,150 |
a test, a burning test, on the arms and the body-- Q.Were those experiments with gas? A.I think - I can't say because I am not a doctor. I can only tell you what I saw, the procedure. Q.Will you tell the Tribunal just what was done to the inmates in this burning procedure? A.When the experiments were started, there wer... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 2,978,100 | 2,978,600 |
Mr. Hardy): Witness, when you were in the Natzweiler concentration camp what language did you talk? A.German. Q.What language did you talk when you were in the Dachau concentration camp? A.Only German. MR. HARDY:That's all, your Honor. THE PRESIDENT:It appears that the translators are satisfied that they are getting th... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 2,978,550 | 2,979,050 |
points on which the witness is to be examined--lost experiments, perhaps typhus experiments individual technical expressions are important and I am sure that the witness will not be able to give them in German. That is the objection that I have. THE PRESIDENT:Well, if the witness does not know the technical expressions... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 2,979,000 | 2,979,500 |
of the Anenerbe station. Q.How long did these gas burn experiments last, for a period of several months or just a week or so? A.The treatment lasted a noon on one day and then the people were sick for some time, for some months, from April and May, '43 approximately. Q.And these three experimental subjects who died in ... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 2,979,450 | 2,979,950 |
alright. Then Professor Haagen divided these people into two rooms, 2 groups, he made out of them. One group went to room one and the other to room two and then he divided these again into groups one and two. Then the people of the first group were given a vaccination against typhus. The second group was given nothing.... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 2,979,900 | 2,980,400 |
A:Yes. Q:In the experimental station Ahnenerbe? A:Yes. Q:And then Professor Haagen vaccinated one group and did not vaccinate the other, is that correct? A:Not the other one, that's right. Q:Were you in a position to see the vaccinations take place? A:Yes. Q:Then after a period of a number of days Professor Haagen retu... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 2,980,350 | 2,980,850 |
of these gypsies who had already been used once with the typhus experiments and some groups who were already in the camp. Then he had four groups of gypsies. He took one group after the other down to the gas room and brought them back up again. I know very well Haagen went down with these people and he came back up wit... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 2,980,800 | 2,981,300 |
QNow the experiment with gas burns, were the experimental subjects exclusively Germans or were there some Poles or Czichs or Austrians or Russians or Frenchmen used? ANo. There were only Germans in the first experiment. QNow in the typhus experiments you state that they were decidedly not volunteers? ADecidedly not. QA... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 2,981,250 | 2,981,750 |
and myself. QNow, will you point out to the Tribunal what entries in that book indicate the deaths that you have outlined here in your testimony? AYes. AWhile the Tribunal is still looking at the book I will ask you another question. Did you ever draft charts at the experimental station, inasmuch as you were a draftsma... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 2,981,700 | 2,982,200 |
month of June - at the end of the month of June - but in the original book there were the dates of death, June 1, June 2, etc. - but not in this copy. QWell, now, is that copy numbered -- is each page numbered? In other words, is it paginated 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, etc. -- the pages? ANo. No. QWell, then, how could I find that... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 2,982,150 | 2,982,650 |
questions I wish to put to him concerning the book and I cannot very well put them without identifying the pages therein. THE PRESIDENT:The Tribunal will now be in recess until 1:30 o'clock. (A recess was taken until 1330 hours.) AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1330 hours, 30 June 1947.) GERRIT H. NALE - R... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 2,982,600 | 2,983,100 |
AYes. QWell now, do you know what these first 15 men used in the gas burn experiments volunteered for? ANo, certainly not. QWell, did they volunteer for a dangerous experiment or for a harmless experiment? AThey volunteered for a harmless experiment. QThen in other words they did not expect to die as a result of the ex... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 2,983,050 | 2,983,550 |
where the names should be. AYes, there are 18 gypsies who died as a result of the experiments. QWell, what does the entry say in the book on page 18 to indicate that these were 18 gypsies? ABetween the last deaths and the following deaths there are the words, "18 Gypsies." QI see and that is on what line on page 38; Li... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 2,983,500 | 2,984,000 |
6587, name - Fodassy Andreas, presumably a Hungarian, he was born on 12 February 1911. QAnd how do you know that that name referred to in that entry is one and the same as the man experimented on by Haagen in the poison gas experiments? ABecause after the name, there is the letter "V" inserted. QAnd what does "V" mean?... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 2,983,950 | 2,984,450 |
him dead? A.Yes. Q.Do you have any other entries there recording deaths as a result of the experiments? A.No. Q.Is that a complete list of those you know died as a result of the experiments you told the Tribunal about this morning? A.Yes, these are the last cases of which I was speaking. Q.Witness, that book that you h... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 2,984,400 | 2,984,900 |
assistant nurse at the socalled departnent Ahnenerbe? A.Ever since November 1942. Q.November 1942? When did the so-called burning experiments start? A.That was in November 1942. Q.Very well. The experimental subjects came from outside or had they been selected in Natzweiler? A.They were selected in the camp itself. Q.Y... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 2,984,850 | 2,985,350 |
shall once more have the book handed to you in order to enable you to ascertain the month or the months during which these three people had died in connection with the burning experiments. Would you please select these three months? A.December 1942. Q.That refers to the three cases of the first experiment? A.Yes, Decem... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 2,985,300 | 2,985,800 |
barrack among the inmates? A.That did not apply to all of the inmates, only those who knew. Q.And how did these few inmates have that knowledge? A.In every camp there are rumors and rumors pass from one to another. Q.At any rate you have no exact material which culd tell us in what connection this barrack was with the ... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 2,985,750 | 2,986,250 |
would come from Auschwitz. That is the official in formation we received. Q.But that this evacuation was to be carried out on behalf of the institute of Ahnenerbe, how did you know that? A.I already told you that we received an order that this place was to be vacated since it was to be used for the Ahnenerbe. Q.Did you... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 2,986,200 | 2,986,700 |
they must have known about that but not in such detail, certainly not about typhus because at that time he was already in Baden-Baden. I mean Holl. But he know about the burning experiments. Q.And how about the other two, Grandjean and your countryman? AYes, they certainly knew about these things but not to the same de... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 2,986,650 | 2,987,150 |
there too among the inmates, and they knew it just as well as I did. Q.Well, who were these innate physicians, witness? A.For instance, there was a Dutch Physician, Dr. Kredit, who unfortunately died of typhus. Q.Was there another physician there? A.No, there wasn't another physician in the typhus station perhaps Dr. P... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 2,987,100 | 2,987,600 |
AWell, as far as I can judge it, if one receives typhus normally, one gets it through lice or unclean conditions, but these people were entirely clean. Therefore, they must have bean infected with an artificial medium. Even if you are not a physician you can judge that. QWell, witness, I am repeating that you are merel... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 2,987,550 | 2,988,050 |
pardon, witness, what do you mean by normal typhus cases? AI mean those cases which were already in the camp, that is, those who were sent to the camp suffering with typhus; but the typhus cases came from Auschwitz. QYou were saying that the blood tests were sent to Strassbourg. Now, witness, you are not a physician. A... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 2,988,000 | 2,988,500 |
at the end of November or the beginning of December, and when did the first death cases occur? AI think that these occurred towards the middle of December. QNow, witness, can you tell us with certainty what the cause of the death was? ANo, I cannot tell you. QWhen did the other death cases occur? ADuring the subsequent... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 2,988,450 | 2,988,950 |
called Joseph and one had another name, but of course I can't tell you that with certainty now. QWitness, form the fact that these inmates were not registered in the camp at their arrival, and from the fact that here in the book we find a group of 18 gypsies, without names, you conclude that we are here concerned with ... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 2,988,900 | 2,989,400 |
AI was always interested in getting hold of these names because I, as a Dutchman, knew that one day I would be free and I did want to know who found his death from our people in order that I might get back and say that these and these people died at the camp of Natzweiler. All these people were Nacht und Nebel prisoner... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 2,989,350 | 2,989,850 |
but at that time I certainly did. Sometimes, after I came home, and I can tell you that, some Dutchmen pointed out to me that I have to learn to speak Dutch properly once more. For 5 years I had to speak German and therefore I often made mistakes in Dutch and even today it occurs that I make a mistake. QYou were saying... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 2,989,800 | 2,990,300 |
refers to the testimony of Grandjean he quotes the record exactly as Grandjean testified. I think this will deceive the witness here. DR. TIPP:I haven't the testimony of Grandjean before me but I shall be able to ascertain the exact page number during the recess and will then be able to inform the Tribunal as to when h... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 2,990,250 | 2,990,750 |
experiments were carried out on eight persons? A.Yes. Q.I believe you said this morning that these experimental subjects included some gypsies who had already been in the typhus experiments, is that true? A.Yes. Q.Now, do you know whether Mr. Haagen ordered the people to come to the hospital and from what group of pers... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 2,990,700 | 2,991,200 |
people look like when they came back? A.The first were not seriously affected. They were used again later. And became worse and worse. When the worst came the people were trying hard to breathe. They couldn't get air; they had foam at their mouth. Terrible, terrible to look at. I can't judge, of course. I only know tha... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 2,991,150 | 2,991,650 |
at the Book you will see that in the cases of the Dutchmen the exact date is given. Q.Well, Witness, are these exact dates given in your copy too? A.Of the Dutchmen ? Yes they are. Q.Now, Witness, to go back to Mr. Haagen: Can you say definitely that Mr. Haagen carried out these experiments or is there a possibility th... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 2,991,600 | 2,992,100 |
you assign to this document? DR. WILLE:Twenty-four. THE PRESIDENT:The document will be received in evidence. DR. WILLE:Mr. President; may I come back to my presentation of documents of Saturday ? I have investigated. The President said that the so-called document book was not supplied with numbers and there was no inde... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 2,992,050 | 2,992,550 |
documents so that we will be able to ascertain whether we should sit nights. Me might run out of evidence and have to adjourn. The Prosecution is nearly finished . We may have two or three little jobs to clean up our case, but other than that we have these documents marked for identification which I am endeavoring to g... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 2,992,500 | 2,993,000 |
new to speak of brought out in the cross examination of Hoven. THE PRESIDENT:The documents offered by the prosecution and marked as identification during the examination of the defendants were furnished to the defendants long a go. Copies were offered to most of the defendants. Of course, those defendants whose cases c... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 2,992,950 | 2,993,450 |
to be offered on cross examination. THE PRESIDENT:In every case there always comes a point where there is an examination of the defendant and then a cross examination and in that case evidence is properly identified to be offered as rebuttal evidence. If counsel can suggest anyway by which he can procure further affida... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 2,993,400 | 2,993,900 |
I am not in a position to obtain this affidavit from Dr. Balachowsky -- or, rather, the answer to the questions. I believe that this is an approved cross examination. If the witness does not appear, then what is said in his affidavit against Professor Handloser cannot be used as evidence. Therefore, on the 18th of June... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 2,993,850 | 2,994,350 |
I do not intend to ask him for a third; but I have in my possession a statement which Professor Reiter gave to mo when I asked him about an affidavit and wanted to determine whether he had already made any statement on the typhus conference 29 December 1941. When I said to him that in making an affidavit as I wanted it... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 2,994,300 | 2,994,800 |
his cell and wrote me a letter and never delivered it, that isn't something that I have received. This is not under oath. Ho executed an affidavit under oath for the defense counsel. Then we called him, presented that affidavit to him and asked him for other statements. He gave us statements and swore to those. What th... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 2,994,750 | 2,995,250 |
to check with the other one? DR. NELTE:Yes, there is a photostat too. THE PRESIDENT:Counsel for Becker-Freyseng. DR. TIPP:Mr. President, first of all, from document book 1, Becker-Freyseng, I should like to offer a few documents which deal primarily with experiments on human beings. From document book 1 I have already ... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 2,995,200 | 2,995,700 |
that document 32 has not been introduced in evidence. MR. HARDY:If he intends to introduce that, I have no objection either, your Honor. DR. TIPP:This document, an affidavit of Professor Zugschwert, has already boon offered as a Schroeder document and I enclose it in my document book merely for the sake of simplicity. ... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 2,995,650 | 2,996,150 |
DR. TIPP:No. Mr. President, I am not offering 62. 63 is Exhibit number 43. Document 64 is Exhibit number 7. THE PRESIDENT:Well, counsel, I have no record that 64 has been offered in evidence. You say it's been received as Exhibit number 7. I have no record of that, that may be true, but I have no record of that. MR. HA... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 2,996,100 | 2,996,600 |
one research assignment from the Medical Inspectorate to the witness Matthes, and one to a Leipzig institute at which the witness was working. The witness had said in his affidavit that the attachments, that is the research assignments, were in order. When this document was offered, and the prosecution objected, the Tr... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 2,996,550 | 2,997,050 |
have here before me a document book 5 for Becker-Freyseng, but I have no part 2. I have it hero. Very well, now if you will start over again with that. DR. TIPP:I offer Becker-Freyseng Document No. 76 as Exhibit 60. This is an affidavit of Mrs. Viverowsky. It is on page 385. I do not intend to read from this affidavit,... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 2,997,000 | 2,997,500 |
It is an affidavit by Professor Dr. Achelis, the contents again a description of a research assignment, how it came about. The witness says that there was no check, no control exerted, and there was no authority to issue orders on the part of the office which issued the assignment. I do not intend to quote from this do... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 2,997,450 | 2,997,950 |
now I have the certified copy, so that this document is in order now. MR. HARDY:Was this one offered before as a Beiglboeck exhibit? DR. STEINBAUER:No, I gave it the old number - Exhibit No. 5. MR. HARDY:The Prosecution has no objection now that it is in order, your Honor. Apparently the Tribunal admitted that provisio... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 2,997,900 | 2,998,400 |
that the charts and the 2 books were introduced as Beiglboeck Exhibit #34 and the 2 books that are included in Exhibit #34 have one which has the black cover thereon, where those lists of names are found. I think it would save trouble and would not create too much difficulty if we continued to keep thorn under one numb... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 2,998,350 | 2,998,850 |
names as written on the photostatic copy which I think would be sufficient, rather than having the book re-photostated. As a matter of fact.... THE PRESIDENT:My reference was merely to tho photostatic copy of that pa c of the names. MR. HARDY:That is what I mean. I mean it has been photostated once and I have a copy an... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 2,998,800 | 2,999,300 |
I could alert him in case he decided to leave for Vienna before the end of the week and if we did agree in a conference the Tribunal would recall the witness Hoellenrainer. That is purely tentative. THE PRESIDENT:You will notify the Tribunal at the opening of tomorrow's morning session whether you expect to call the wi... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 2,999,250 | 2,999,750 |
after there has been an opportunity to interrogate him, and to tell him what Laubinger testified to just before him, then I believe that the value of this witness is slight, and it would be prejudicial to all the defense counsel, because then, of course, we would make application to re-examine our witnesses on weak poi... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 2,999,700 | 3,000,200 |
be done within two hours. The reason is that Karl Hoellenreiner is not unknown to my colleagues. They told me that to their knowledge Karl Hoellenreiner must have been convicted at least 12 times. He lied to you. He was asked whether he had been convicted and he said, "No." I don't have the German record here but I rem... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 3,000,150 | 3,000,650 |
examining the witness. The witness may be recalled to the stand being under custody under order of the Tribunal, he will be under guard at 1:30 o'clock this afternoon. Dr. GAWLIK: (for the defendant Hoven) Mr. President, in the list of exhibits which are to be admitted which was given to you yesterday there is document... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 3,000,600 | 3,001,100 |
was to be ready here this morning at 9:30. I wonder if they have it ready? THE PRESIDENT:Has defense counsel prepared the list suggested by the Tribunal yesterday afternoon as to the exhibits they propose to offer? Any defense counsel now prepared to offer any further documents? Mr. HARDY: Your Honor, I am not in a pos... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 3,001,050 | 3,001,550 |
but as far as I can see now will be 1800 to 2000 pages. The Tribunal said that closing briefs had to be ready by 7 July. If the translation takes 2 weeks we will not be able to get the closing briefs in time and Mr. Vartena told me yesterday that would take up this matter with the Tribunal once again. Mr. HARDY: As I u... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 3,001,500 | 3,002,000 |
jail, your Honor. THE PRESIDENT:Naturally. DR. FLEMMING:Mr. President, this noon, after the recess, I shall hand in a list of the defense documents which are not yet translated. MR. HARDY:It should also be called to the attention of the defense counsel that attorney Steinbauer should be called to the Courtroom for this... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 3,001,950 | 3,002,450 |
examined us. We had to take our clothes off and, line up. And he said, "Now, you will be given good food, as good as you have never had it, and then you will be hungry. You won't get anything to eat, and you will have to drink sea water." One of the prisoners whose name was Rudi Taubmann jumped up and refused. He was i... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 3,002,400 | 3,002,900 |
Then we began to drink sea water. I drank the worst kind, that was yellowish. We drank it two or three times a day, and then in the evening, we had one liter of the yellow water. There was three kinds of water, white water, and yellow water; and I drank the yellow kind. And then after a few days, the people were cursin... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 3,002,850 | 3,003,350 |
Luftwaffe, he took this red tube and put it in the gypsy's mouth and into his stomach. And then he poured the water down tho tube. The gypsy kneeled in front of him and beseeched him, but that doctor had no pity. QWitness, during the experiments were your temperature taken? AYes. QWho took your temperatures? AThere wer... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 3,003,300 | 3,003,800 |
nor anywhere in the camp. We often talked about it and wondered where they were. We never saw them again. I assume that the people died. QDo you know where they were taken to? ANo, I don't know. QWell, during the course of the experiments were you weighed every day? AYes, we were weighed, too. QWas that every day or ev... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 3,003,750 | 3,004,250 |
power to relate everything as it...... QAll right. Just a moment. Was your bed number "23"? AYes. QThen you were considered to be experimental subject No. 23? AYes. QWere you sick during the course of the experiments, witness? AYes. QNow, witness, after the completion of the experiments in early September were you then... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 3,004,200 | 3,004,700 |
Augsburg and work for Messerschmidt. QAll right, witness, Did you ever have malaria while you were in the concentration camp? ANo. MR. HARDY:At this time, your Honor, the prosecution has no further questions to put to this witness. I might call attention of the Tribunal that this witness is Case No. 23, the man -- we e... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 3,004,650 | 3,005,150 |
AI told the doctor I drank salt water. QLister, Mr. Mettbach, don't evade my question after there fashion of gypsies. Give me a clear answer as a witness under oath. Did you tell the doctor that you were in other experiments, yes or no? ANo. I just drank salt water. MR. HARDY:Your Honor, the testimony of this doctor is... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 3,005,100 | 3,005,600 |
away. We were sent to the camp and the Nazis took all our property. QWell then, it's true that you want to ask for a large sum of money? ANo, I haven't taken a penny. QBut you want 20,000 marks? ANo. QHow much do you really want? AI haven't got anything yet.Aman named Issner, from whom we made purchases before the war,... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 3,005,550 | 3,006,050 |
were several tents. QWere there a hundred gypsies or two hundred, how many? AOh, for God's sake, how shall I remember an exact number? There were a great many from Auschwitz. Some were put on a Wehrmacht transport. My brother was there. He was sent to Ravensbruck. QA little slower, witness. Then I am right if I say the... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 3,006,000 | 3,006,500 |
remember the gypsy from Pressbourg? ANo. QWho was the oldest gypsy? AI don't remember. QYou were with your comrades for weeks, and don't know their names? ANo. QIt is possible that Mettbach did not know all the names then, isn't it? AHow should I know? I did not have time to ask everybody what his name is. QDid the pro... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 3,006,450 | 3,006,950 |
I did. He has to, too. He has to tell the truth about what the doctor did. QYes, you both have to tell the truth, but now you are saying exactly the opposite. One of you must be lying. AI don't tell lies. I tell the truth what the doctor said. QNow then Laubinger was lying? AI don't know. QThat is enough. You said that... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 3,006,900 | 3,007,400 |
where you were weighed every day? AI don't know. QWere you weighed standing up or lying down? AStanding up. QWere some of the people weighed lying down? AI don't remember. QWas this scale such that people could be weighed lying down? AI don't know. QWhere -- what did this scale look like? AWell, it was a scale, a big s... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 3,007,350 | 3,007,850 |
you get after you left that farm? You had a phlegmone after this dirty work... AYes. QAnd then where did you go? AThen I went toAugsburg. QTo the Messerschmidt Works. AYes. QWhat were you there in the Messerschmidt Works? AI was a laborer. QNo, you were more. Just think. ANo, I was nothing. I was a common laborer. I wa... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 3,007,800 | 3,008,300 |
to read what the witness Laubinger said ... Well, that is not important...they all said that the Professor treated the experimental subjects well. ANo! QWell, are all these people lying then? AHow could the doctor from the Luftwaffe treat us well? QThis doctor... AWhat doctor? QDr. Bieglboeck. ANo, he did not treat us ... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 3,008,250 | 3,008,750 |
these pictures were taken just before the end of the experiment? AYes. QAnd how did the experiment and in your case -- do you remember? AI don't remember what day it was. QI asked you how, and were you given water to drink, or milk? ANo. QWell, what happened? AWe had to drink salt water. QYes, but when that stopped? AW... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 3,008,700 | 3,009,200 |
I didn't drink any water; I didn't eat anything. QAnd you did not throw away any urine? ANo. QWell, when you were so weak after the experiment and came back to your barracks, which barrack did you come to? ABlock 22. Q 22. Weren't there other gypsies there too? Room 4, I think? AI don't remember.And it is not important... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 3,009,150 | 3,009,650 |
Then the doctor from the Luftwaffe would get some sea water. Q.Yes, we have already heard that. Do you know that some people had what they called an "escape point"? A.I don't know. Q.Were you there when the station was dissolved and the apparatus was packed up? Did you help? A.No. Q.Do you know whether the professor tr... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 3,009,600 | 3,010,100 |
shall have it translated and offer it to the Tribunal. THE PRESIDENT:From that record you might ask the witness concerning the statements on the record which you have. MR. HARDY:May I see the record to check its authenticity? Will the German interpreters kindly look at this for me to check its authenticity? Q.Witness, ... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 3,010,050 | 3,010,550 |
of documents which are still to be offered by the defense. This morning I asked my colleagues how many documents they still have to offer, and I have drawn up a list which I now hand to the Tribunal so that the Tribunal will be informed. I shall hand you a list in a moment. On the right side I have always indicated whe... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 3,010,500 | 3,011,000 |
dealing with these recent charges raised by the Prosecution. MR. HARDY:Your Honor, you see the great difficulty has been here, the Prosecution, in an endeavor to be cooperative with the Tribunal and defense counsel, has introduced rebuttal evidence out of order. We have done that to shorten the number of days and to ex... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 3,010,950 | 3,011,450 |
that is something new for us. I, as defense counsel, if it is a fair trial, demand that if such new evidence is brought in at the last moment, I am given an opportunity to answer it. I should like to show you by a practical example what I mean. During the whole trial, which has been going on for eight months, the Prose... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 3,011,400 | 3,011,900 |
discretion to allow rebuttal on both sides. The situation is not altogether fortunate, but I would like to say defendants in preparing these documents they were informed they must get in their documents to the Translation center. I don't know how many documents are coming out. The translation authorities said the docum... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 3,011,850 | 3,012,350 |
Oberhauser who is ill. The Tribunal will be in recess until 1:30 o'clock. (A recess was taken until 1330 hours.) AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1330 hours, 1 July 1947) THE MARSHAL:The Tribunal is again in session. DR.SEIDL (consel for the defendants Gebhardt and Fischer): Mr. President, on last Saturday ... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 3,012,300 | 3,012,800 |
noon I spoke with the head of the Translation Department. I talked with him Saturday, Mr. Hodges, and he told me that every document which he had last Saturday, would be available for this Tribunal tomorrow morning, Wednesday morning. He informs me today that his promise will be carried out, that every document that he... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 3,012,750 | 3,013,250 |
as I go through these, Your Honor..... THE PRESIDENT:Just a moment, Counsel. MR. HARDY:Yes, sir. THE PRESIDENT:The last document.... MR. HARDY:The last document was No. 892. THE PRESIDENT:That doesn't seem to be here, Counsel. MR. HARDY:Perhaps it's been put on top. THE PRESIDENT:Yes, that is on top. I thought you refe... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 3,013,200 | 3,013,700 |
attention of the Tribunal and offered, will be considered as received in evidence unless there is an objection, in which event, of course, the objection will be heard and decided. MR. HARDY:There is one other point I want to clarify, Your Honors. When I refer to these documents which are submitted during the cross-exam... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 3,013,650 | 3,014,150 |
cross examination of the defendant Karl Brandt. These are two telegrams, Your Honor. The next document isNO-1620, which is offered as Prosecution Exhibit 449 and found during the cross examination of Karl Brandt, on page 2646 of the official transcript. This is a memorandum from Grawitz to Himmler on proposed medical e... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 3,014,100 | 3,014,600 |
Counsel, is Document 1315? MR.HARDY: 1318, Your Honor. It is offered as Exhibit 455 as indicated on the index. The next document, Your Honor, is DocumentNO-1852, which is offered as Prosecution Exhibit 456, which is found on page 3406 of the official transcript and was introduced during the course of the crossexaminati... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 3,014,550 | 3,015,050 |
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