51： Apple's Rotten Scanning _transcript.txt

[0.00 --> 5.28]  We're doing the show from Cheyenne, Wyoming, and Brent is here in Lady Joops with me, Alex.
[5.70 --> 6.22]  Hello, Brent.
[6.60 --> 7.64]  Hello, guys.
[7.96 --> 10.40]  I brought him with, you know, he's been with us the whole trip, Alex.
[10.62 --> 12.22]  We're in for such a treat tonight.
[12.38 --> 18.60]  I have two of my best friends in the whole world, one of my favorite beverages, and a self-hosted podcast.
[19.26 --> 21.18]  This is going to be a perfect episode.
[21.92 --> 22.26]  Wow.
[22.38 --> 22.90]  Wait a minute, though.
[22.90 --> 24.46]  What's the favorite beverage?
[24.62 --> 26.36]  I feel like you've got to give us more information.
[26.86 --> 28.78]  Well, this particular one is non-alcoholic.
[28.78 --> 29.80]  It's an import.
[30.34 --> 30.70]  Okay.
[30.88 --> 34.16]  So I've gone to a lot of effort for this particular beverage.
[34.66 --> 36.72]  Import from Canada or somewhere further?
[37.08 --> 39.84]  The British people in the audience are going to laugh their faces off in a minute.
[40.06 --> 42.40]  It's Robinson's squash.
[43.52 --> 44.44]  Do you know what that is?
[44.78 --> 45.60]  No, I've got to look it up.
[45.64 --> 46.12]  Tell me about it.
[46.20 --> 46.44]  Okay.
[46.64 --> 48.44]  So it's just flavored water, essentially.
[48.64 --> 53.98]  It's a bit of sugar with apple and blackcurrant flavoring in it.
[53.98 --> 59.90]  And every six months or so, someone in my family sends me a care package with a few British treats in.
[60.00 --> 64.32]  So some, you know, British style Kit Kats, because the Kit Kats you have over here are garbage.
[64.32 --> 68.94]  And then also a few of these Robinson squashed.
[70.92 --> 74.24]  It's the word squash with an apostrophe in D after the end.
[74.32 --> 78.02]  These little, you know, water flavoring packets you can get.
[78.18 --> 80.74]  And I end up with a, you know, a taste of home.
[80.90 --> 83.12]  It's just a little treat I have every now and again.
[83.64 --> 84.56]  That does sound kind of nice.
[85.00 --> 89.20]  We have some things just like that on board today, actually.
[89.32 --> 91.08]  The kids love to drink it while we're going down the road.
[91.72 --> 93.72]  We've been off-grid in two, killing it.
[94.46 --> 103.68]  In fact, in some ways, I think I've been, not in some ways, in every single way, I've enjoyed our off-grid random spots that we've stayed along the way more than any of the campgrounds.
[104.16 --> 107.14]  Some have been forced and some have been planned, but they've all been good.
[107.48 --> 110.30]  Yeah, there was a time where we had to pull over for a bit.
[110.30 --> 114.66]  And, you know, the power system was great, although we were a little short on water.
[114.82 --> 116.90]  The mobile internet system has been killing it, though.
[117.32 --> 118.08]  It's been fantastic.
[118.20 --> 120.82]  We've had connectivity the entire time, everywhere we've went.
[121.20 --> 128.38]  Sometimes better or worse connectivity, like here in Cheyenne, Wyoming, we have kind of moderate connectivity right now.
[129.18 --> 135.50]  But even with moderate connectivity, you can still use a Cloud Guru and become a Cloud Guru.
[135.50 --> 140.72]  Go over to CloudGuru.com, the leader in learning for cloud and Linux and other modern tech skills.
[140.82 --> 142.62]  Hundreds of courses, thousands of hands-on labs.
[143.14 --> 146.80]  Get certified, get hired, get learning at a CloudGuru.com.
[147.28 --> 155.64]  So, Alex, with our special guest in studio, as it were, do you have any questions for our exclusive access to Brent?
[155.72 --> 158.46]  I mean, when's the last time we've had a chance to sit down and ask him a question?
[158.76 --> 159.58]  It's been too long.
[159.58 --> 165.64]  For those of you that don't know, Brent is the host of Brunch with Brent, which you can find over at extras.show.
[166.12 --> 170.82]  Now, I wanted to ask you, Brent, you spent a few days now in Lady Dupes with Chris and the fam.
[171.58 --> 180.92]  He often goes on about accessibility of the Home Assistant interface and how he's got these tablets mounted to the wall and how easy it is to use and blah, blah, blah.
[181.42 --> 187.12]  I was curious as to how you found using someone else's automation system.
[187.12 --> 194.98]  Well, as you know, I don't have an automation system at home, so I'm pretty fresh when it comes to experiencing these things.
[195.54 --> 199.44]  However, I will say my experience on day one started actually in the studio.
[200.10 --> 206.34]  He very kindly set up the exact same tablet system in the studio as he did here in Lady Dupes.
[206.66 --> 210.54]  So, night one, I slept over there and had to figure it out.
[210.98 --> 215.04]  He gave me a 37-second tour, but actually that was enough.
[215.04 --> 223.74]  It had a familiar enough on-off switch interface with very kind labels that were identical to the voice commands.
[224.46 --> 226.22]  And so, I was able to play a little bit, actually.
[226.44 --> 235.66]  I could sort of run over there and go see the tablet and what things were named and then use some of the voice commands and, I guess, learn myself.
[235.66 --> 240.14]  The other thing I did is I got one of those wall mount socket mounts for the HomePod mini.
[240.46 --> 243.50]  So, it's plugged in and mounted right there at the wall socket.
[243.70 --> 245.78]  And so, it's in that guest room.
[246.20 --> 250.96]  So, once you learn the names, you can just ask the HomePod to turn things on and off.
[250.96 --> 255.20]  I do remember when my mother-in-law came to stay once a couple of years ago now.
[255.94 --> 259.42]  I was just in the throes of doing Home Assistant, you know, the first few months.
[259.62 --> 266.06]  So, everything I could possibly put behind automation was behind automation, including, you know, the light switches.
[266.26 --> 267.72]  The light switches no longer worked.
[268.42 --> 270.60]  And I just remember hearing through the wall,
[270.98 --> 274.10]  Hey, Google, turn off the sodding lights!
[274.10 --> 274.58]  Yeah.
[277.86 --> 278.80]  Yeah, you got it.
[279.48 --> 281.14]  Memorizing the names is the hardest part.
[281.54 --> 285.20]  I mean, my wife's been using the automation system for a couple of years now.
[285.26 --> 289.14]  She still has some troubles with the verbal syntax.
[289.52 --> 292.86]  And in part, that's because I've tried all the different assistant tubes.
[292.96 --> 295.32]  And so, they sometimes have various different syntaxes.
[295.42 --> 296.92]  But the real system's in the RV.
[297.10 --> 298.20]  That's like the bigger system.
[298.30 --> 301.58]  I feel like that system in the studio was really the training.
[301.58 --> 306.44]  It was like step one to the system in the RV.
[306.70 --> 310.76]  And so, what was nice about that was that getting here into the RV, it was like,
[310.82 --> 312.24]  Oh, yeah, you know this tablet thing.
[312.30 --> 315.84]  It just has a heck of a lot more on the screen.
[316.30 --> 318.22]  But the same kind of systems apply.
[318.50 --> 324.90]  And so, what I appreciate, I think, the most about that interface is its simplicity and its categorization.
[324.90 --> 331.64]  So, Chris has the systems categorized by either living space or what their use is.
[332.26 --> 337.54]  And so, the first few nights, I would walk all the way back there just to turn the lights on.
[337.60 --> 339.38]  But these days, it feels a lot easier.
[339.70 --> 340.64]  Now you know the names.
[341.22 --> 342.90]  And you can just bark it into the air.
[344.14 --> 350.14]  Are you tempted at all to retrofit the cabin that you live in with any of this stuff?
[350.14 --> 352.40]  That's a very good question.
[352.54 --> 354.10]  So, that hadn't quite hit me yet.
[354.28 --> 358.50]  But now I'm beginning to realize all of the advantages.
[359.28 --> 362.30]  So, for instance, Chris has shown me, you know, he gave me the geek tour.
[362.50 --> 363.88]  And he's given other people the geek tour.
[363.96 --> 365.08]  So, I've been on it a few times.
[365.58 --> 371.26]  And there are sensors in various bays on the RV that give temperature.
[371.26 --> 376.38]  And in my home, I've got these thermometers all over the place.
[376.52 --> 381.04]  But I've got to actually, you know, go up the stairs into my loft to go check out if the fire is too hot up there or not.
[381.06 --> 381.78]  Like an animal.
[382.00 --> 382.46]  I know.
[382.64 --> 383.42]  Like a caveman.
[383.88 --> 385.96]  So, yeah, I know.
[386.32 --> 394.26]  I could see now the two systems in juxtaposition where I could really gain some currency there.
[394.26 --> 400.82]  Because we've talked a lot about how you, in particular, can dip your toes into more self-hosting stuff.
[400.90 --> 404.44]  And I feel like you're curious and you want to do this stuff.
[404.50 --> 409.90]  But you just don't quite know how to break down that first barrier and kind of get going.
[410.46 --> 416.58]  I think if I had to pick the very first barrier that's keeping me from it the most, it would be the server side.
[416.58 --> 425.62]  It would be getting in there and creating a server that's stable enough and safe enough that I feel like I'm not getting myself in more trouble than not.
[425.94 --> 434.72]  This is where I think the Home Assistant Blue or something like it eventually is going to be such an easy on-ramp for a guy like you.
[434.80 --> 436.48]  Because you know about Home Assistant.
[436.72 --> 438.74]  Now you've seen my Home Assistant set up.
[439.36 --> 445.74]  And the fact that there is an official Home Assistant device that runs the whole stack, that's pretty compelling.
[445.74 --> 449.94]  I don't know if the price point's right yet or if it's quite the right device yet.
[450.10 --> 452.64]  But I could definitely see that being a good starting spot, though.
[453.30 --> 455.90]  You know, I think that maybe you guys are on to something.
[456.16 --> 462.40]  I have at least two very good mentors who can walk me through some of the glitches, if any.
[462.82 --> 467.22]  But it sounds also like these days, you know, I've been hearing you guys talk about this for years.
[467.32 --> 469.36]  But it sounds like these days, things are pretty solid.
[469.78 --> 473.50]  So I feel like for me, maybe now is a nice time to jump in.
[474.04 --> 475.06]  Yeah, and you could always start small.
[475.06 --> 480.48]  You'd be surprised, too, how many things Home Assistant might just pick up on a LAN automatically and suggest integrations for.
[481.08 --> 484.52]  And it's never been a better time to take local stuff seriously.
[484.70 --> 491.32]  I mean, I don't know if you saw the Apple news that broke over the last week or two about their expanded protections for children.
[491.58 --> 495.28]  In other words, they're going to scan all of your pictures for kiddie porn, right?
[495.28 --> 496.88]  And it always starts this way.
[496.94 --> 510.26]  And I really hate this kind of insidious way that big companies will roll out overreaching, egregious things like this in the name of, you know, child porn.
[510.34 --> 512.58]  Because who could possibly disagree with child porn?
[512.58 --> 522.68]  The other thing about those integrations, it feels to me like it is affecting many people to solve the problems of few.
[523.12 --> 523.62]  Absolutely.
[523.82 --> 524.72]  I wonder about that.
[525.18 --> 525.40]  Yeah.
[525.40 --> 531.76]  I mean, so as Apple put it, our goal is to create technology that empowers people and enriches their lives.
[531.76 --> 543.26]  We want to help protect children from predators and those who use communication tools to recruit and exploit them and limit the spread of CSAM, you know, child sexual abuse material.
[543.90 --> 545.42]  Obviously, that's a laudable goal.
[545.58 --> 549.52]  And we can't legitimately sit here and say that that is not a laudable goal.
[550.24 --> 553.86]  However, the way in which they're doing it, I have significant issues with.
[553.86 --> 566.78]  So what they're doing is they're taking every photo that you have on your iPhone or iPad that is linked to an iCloud account and scanning it on your local device.
[567.28 --> 572.60]  And this entire announcement has been extremely complicated and confusing because they've really announced three things.
[572.74 --> 578.24]  They've announced iMessage image detection for child accounts in a family plan.
[578.24 --> 584.54]  They've announced iCloud photo library scanning on your local device.
[584.54 --> 592.40]  In other words, if you have iCloud photo library turned on locally on your device, it will scan and check for matches in the CSAM database.
[592.64 --> 599.08]  And then the third thing they've announced is they're also going to start censoring results in Siri search.
[599.24 --> 604.20]  So if you search for something like child porn and it matches that stuff, Siri is going to block that.
[604.20 --> 611.22]  And this is all happening using that new neural processing area in the Apple processors that they love to brag so much.
[611.28 --> 612.32]  It's accelerating this.
[613.04 --> 616.28]  And I find this to be an extremely, extremely slippery slope.
[616.76 --> 620.44]  And I know that the other side of the argument is that child harm is real.
[620.82 --> 629.14]  So one interesting stat, you've probably seen this floating around, is Apple reports a couple of hundred incidents of child porn in iMessage a year.
[629.60 --> 630.94]  A couple hundred a year.
[630.94 --> 636.96]  And Facebook Messenger, because they are already using the CSAM scanner, reports 20 million.
[638.48 --> 639.84]  It's a huge difference.
[640.50 --> 644.94]  And you've got to figure, people that are using Facebook are probably on iPhones or Android devices.
[645.60 --> 648.32]  So there's probably a lot of iPhone users.
[648.46 --> 654.22]  If 20 million Facebook messaging flags have happened, whatever that is, whatever that metric is,
[654.54 --> 658.80]  there's a good chance that they were using iPhones and that that stuff's on their phone.
[658.80 --> 663.18]  Now, the thing is, is it's not going to matter if they don't turn on iPhoto library.
[663.82 --> 670.70]  And if you are a big child porn collector, I wouldn't imagine you're probably using iCloud's photo library feature.
[670.78 --> 673.72]  You probably wouldn't be auto-uploading your child porn to their server, right?
[674.14 --> 675.94]  I think you might be surprised, actually.
[676.08 --> 680.56]  I bet you there's a lot of people out there using technology just for the bare minimum,
[680.74 --> 684.54]  just to get what they need done and not understanding, like we do, the underlying principles.
[684.54 --> 686.62]  Yeah, I guess.
[686.68 --> 688.38]  And I suppose it's so easy to turn that stuff on.
[688.46 --> 690.06]  You turn on iCloud when you get your phone.
[690.46 --> 692.16]  You don't realize every picture you're taking.
[692.36 --> 694.74]  I suppose, especially if you're taking the pictures with the phone.
[695.36 --> 702.02]  But an important thing to realize is the CSAM detection is only looking for images that are in the database.
[702.02 --> 709.16]  It's not doing like some sort of flesh recognition algorithm and detecting 80% nakedness on a 10-year-old.
[709.24 --> 710.38]  Like it's not doing that.
[710.68 --> 717.56]  It is looking at a hash that has been provided by CSAM, which they then only look for those images.
[717.56 --> 720.38]  And so it doesn't really feel that effective.
[720.38 --> 723.80]  If you combine the fact that people can just turn off iCloud Photo Library,
[724.16 --> 727.88]  and it's only looking for the CSAM photos that exist today,
[728.78 --> 735.96]  it seems like a limited reach, a limited return for a massive increase in surveillance on people's devices.
[736.36 --> 741.12]  And Alex, I think it sounds like it bothers you that it's actually happening on device.
[741.24 --> 744.30]  Like you'd almost be more comfortable if it was happening up in the cloud, it sounds like.
[744.94 --> 745.54]  I think I would.
[745.54 --> 753.00]  And for me, this feels like a capitulation to wider pressures that are at play.
[753.00 --> 760.00]  You know, if you're Apple, you probably get a lot of requests from different governments,
[760.22 --> 764.98]  different organizations to put back doors into your end-to-end encryption algorithms.
[765.54 --> 770.12]  And for me, I think this is their way of saying, no, we're not going to do that.
[770.12 --> 777.76]  But what we are going to do is say we have some protections in place for the stuff that you say is actually bad,
[777.84 --> 782.50]  as opposed to terrorists or whatever the next excuse is going to be.
[782.50 --> 788.30]  Right. You say you need a backdoor for child porn, so we are going to build a system that automatically detects it,
[788.36 --> 790.82]  and then your excuse for a backdoor goes away.
[791.16 --> 792.08]  It's nullified.
[792.24 --> 793.58]  And then you have to move on to the next one.
[794.00 --> 798.66]  But what bothers me most is there was an ad campaign not that long ago that says,
[798.92 --> 803.66]  what happens on your iPhone stays on your phone as part of their privacy message.
[803.66 --> 809.28]  This feels to me like it crosses a line because the scanning's happening on the local device.
[809.78 --> 817.32]  I don't necessarily opt in quite as obviously as I would if, say, my stuff was being uploaded to a remote server.
[817.88 --> 819.08]  Like Facebook is a good example.
[819.22 --> 824.40]  If I upload something to Facebook, in my mind, I consider that now public domain,
[825.14 --> 828.24]  whatever the privacy controls that Facebook say is there.
[828.68 --> 830.08]  And it was an implicit action as well.
[830.16 --> 832.14]  You're choosing to upload to Facebook.
[832.14 --> 837.12]  It's a manual action you're taking where iCloud Photo Library is kind of a built-in default.
[837.26 --> 840.82]  You have to be an iCloud user, and you can go in there and turn it on and off.
[840.94 --> 844.48]  But, you know, if you sign up for the whole shebang, you're going to get iCloud Photo,
[844.70 --> 846.78]  and every photo you take goes in there.
[847.30 --> 850.56]  Like you said, it's just a very, very slippery slope.
[850.78 --> 852.90]  This year, it's child pornography.
[853.12 --> 854.22]  Next year, it's terrorists.
[854.92 --> 861.18]  In 20 years' time, it's monitoring a social credit score because you said something bad about the president, you know?
[862.14 --> 862.98]  That's what I worry about.
[863.06 --> 866.76]  It's also true that these are only the things that they're saying they're scanning for.
[867.52 --> 869.54]  We don't know about the things they are not saying.
[869.66 --> 869.92]  Right.
[869.98 --> 876.02]  And if you go by the docs that Apple has released, they don't even have input in that CSAM database.
[876.20 --> 878.66]  They're basically just being handed a list of hashes.
[879.12 --> 880.40]  Here, put this in your database.
[880.40 --> 884.96]  Now, I have to say, I am actually more comfortable with this being on-device.
[885.92 --> 890.00]  I think because it limits the scale and scope of something when it's on-device,
[890.10 --> 893.82]  a big database update or a feature like this is going to have to come through a software update,
[893.96 --> 898.22]  where if it was a cloud service, they would just push the update, and one day I would be subject to it.
[898.76 --> 903.72]  So I kind of prefer those aspects, and I think it also does help with the privacy aspect.
[904.12 --> 906.86]  They're not having to unencrypt everything on iCloud to do this.
[906.86 --> 912.04]  They're doing it on your device that already has access, and then they're pinging Apple with a,
[912.18 --> 913.76]  hey, we think we found a match here.
[914.44 --> 918.18]  Apple then has to have some sort of human interact with that alert.
[918.38 --> 922.70]  There's various descriptions of what kind of alert they get, and then Apple flags the authorities.
[923.26 --> 925.36]  And it does seem like they've taken a lot of steps here.
[925.84 --> 927.66]  They've limited the way they check this.
[927.74 --> 931.82]  They're looking for specific fingerprints, and then they have this cryptographic signature
[931.82 --> 935.00]  that they assign to it when they think they have found one, and that's what they send up to Apple.
[935.00 --> 936.84]  Then it's reviewed by a human.
[937.06 --> 942.70]  It's happening on your device instead of at cloud, and you can turn it off by turning off iCloud Photo Library.
[943.30 --> 948.52]  Is this a reasonable compromise if the platform, let's just say for the sake of argument,
[949.02 --> 954.76]  is really being used for child abuse at some massive scale because of the popularity of the platform?
[955.22 --> 957.06]  Is this a reasonable thing for them to do?
[957.28 --> 962.28]  Do they have some responsibility as a platform owner with a billion devices out there
[962.28 --> 966.06]  to take some action to try to maybe stop something like this?
[966.58 --> 969.88]  Well, I look at that 20 million figure that you came out with for Facebook,
[970.68 --> 975.72]  divide that by 365, and that's 55,000 flags a day.
[975.86 --> 978.98]  Who is reviewing 55,000 flags a day?
[979.82 --> 983.64]  That's just a crazy amount of signal-to-noise ratio, isn't it?
[984.00 --> 984.52]  No kidding.
[985.02 --> 986.88]  Well, and can you imagine when they turn this on,
[986.88 --> 991.54]  the initial, if this is going to be a thing and it's a real big problem,
[991.64 --> 996.10]  you would think they're going to have just this massive deluge of alerts,
[996.34 --> 998.22]  and I just wouldn't want that job.
[998.70 --> 1004.22]  Well, I've certainly been on the other end of logging overload or alert overload.
[1004.38 --> 1006.20]  You just stop looking after a while.
[1006.68 --> 1009.54]  And you know, the other reality is several cloud providers,
[1009.54 --> 1012.62]  I think many, I don't want to name them off the top of my head,
[1012.62 --> 1016.40]  but I know Facebook and Microsoft are already doing this scanning.
[1016.74 --> 1017.82]  They're already doing this.
[1018.50 --> 1020.24]  Apple was one of sort of the holdouts here.
[1020.86 --> 1023.62]  So it really comes back to, if you're not comfortable with this,
[1024.12 --> 1026.64]  you really have to self-host.
[1026.88 --> 1028.72]  And you have to advocate self-hosting,
[1028.78 --> 1031.14]  because that's the only way you can avoid this kind of content scanning.
[1031.46 --> 1034.24]  And if you're worried about the slippery slope of what could be added to this database,
[1034.90 --> 1037.58]  then I think people should really be, I don't know,
[1037.58 --> 1042.38]  like when you can self-host, like invest in self-hosting, use it,
[1042.54 --> 1044.06]  make an audience for it out there.
[1044.56 --> 1044.64]  Absolutely.
[1044.92 --> 1046.70]  And on that note, actually,
[1046.94 --> 1050.20]  I thought we might try doing a new challenge in the show.
[1051.26 --> 1054.38]  The de-Google-ification challenge.
[1054.68 --> 1056.76]  I need to come up with a better name than that, don't I?
[1057.20 --> 1058.12]  Well, I don't know.
[1058.20 --> 1060.98]  I actually kind of like it because I know what you mean immediately.
[1061.86 --> 1062.12]  Yeah.
[1062.30 --> 1067.32]  So the idea is I'm not going to be able to just cold turkey drop Google from my life,
[1067.32 --> 1071.28]  because I use Gmail and I have done for 15 years or however long.
[1071.80 --> 1074.08]  I've been using it a long time since the beta anyway.
[1074.86 --> 1076.30]  I use Google Photos a lot.
[1076.44 --> 1079.80]  I use Google, you know, it's going to be tricky.
[1079.90 --> 1081.78]  I'm not going to, I'm not going to pull any punches.
[1081.92 --> 1082.80]  It's going to be very difficult.
[1082.80 --> 1085.62]  But the idea is one day a week,
[1085.94 --> 1088.98]  I am going to go completely cold turkey from Google.
[1089.16 --> 1090.56]  That's, you know, DuckDuckGo.
[1091.14 --> 1093.48]  That's, you know, a self-hosted note service,
[1093.58 --> 1097.02]  a self-hosted photo service, completely no Google Photo backup.
[1097.02 --> 1098.06]  Et cetera, et cetera.
[1098.18 --> 1098.70]  No Gmail.
[1099.68 --> 1101.52]  And no Android.
[1102.00 --> 1105.02]  Well, technically I'm going to be using Lineage OS.
[1105.30 --> 1114.04]  And I think the only thing that I will allow in terms of de-Google-ifying is the micro G apps thing through.
[1114.04 --> 1118.18]  So for the very first iteration of this,
[1118.36 --> 1120.82]  it'll probably be in episode 53.
[1121.22 --> 1122.06]  This is 51.
[1122.32 --> 1125.82]  Just because I'm going to Denver next week to see you two fine gentlemen.
[1126.38 --> 1129.22]  And I probably won't have time to do the full research on this.
[1129.30 --> 1131.20]  But I have an old OnePlus 6 in a drawer.
[1131.54 --> 1136.04]  I'm going to designate that as my de-Google-ify device.
[1137.08 --> 1137.60]  What do you think?
[1138.00 --> 1138.30]  Hmm.
[1138.66 --> 1140.14]  I mean, I love this idea.
[1140.74 --> 1142.08]  I have an Android device.
[1142.20 --> 1143.10]  It's a Pixel 3.
[1143.80 --> 1151.58]  But I've always struggled with replacing the ROM on there because the reason I have it is to kind of know what the Google experience is like.
[1152.04 --> 1153.20]  But I'd be down for it.
[1153.32 --> 1154.50]  I'd give it a try.
[1155.84 --> 1157.82]  I feel like there's – I'm trying to run through my head.
[1157.82 --> 1167.20]  My biggest area and where I worry this is going to lead to is I use Google apps for Jupyter Broadcasting for like email and calendar and stuff like that.
[1167.66 --> 1169.76]  And I think it's kind of a decent service.
[1170.12 --> 1171.02]  I hate to say it.
[1171.34 --> 1171.82]  Oh, right.
[1172.04 --> 1172.44]  Calendar.
[1172.94 --> 1174.50]  Oh, I'd forgotten about calendar.
[1174.62 --> 1176.02]  I use that all the time.
[1176.44 --> 1178.24]  Even stupid stuff like contacts.
[1178.36 --> 1181.42]  You kind of forget that they're just managing my contacts for me on that, you know?
[1181.82 --> 1182.52]  Oh, gentlemen.
[1182.70 --> 1184.08]  You guys are so behind the times.
[1184.38 --> 1185.14]  Oh, what?
[1185.42 --> 1186.64]  You all in the next cloud over there?
[1186.64 --> 1190.90]  Well, I ran through this very experiment many years ago.
[1191.14 --> 1191.70]  I'll have you know.
[1191.96 --> 1193.94]  Could you sound any more smug right now?
[1194.48 --> 1201.02]  Well, it's only because you guys are both typically far ahead of me in most other realms.
[1201.32 --> 1203.68]  He's enjoying this moment too much, Alex.
[1203.86 --> 1205.50]  He's enjoying this.
[1206.68 --> 1207.40]  Well, good.
[1207.44 --> 1208.08]  I want to hear it.
[1208.32 --> 1209.82]  I did a similar challenge.
[1210.40 --> 1212.40]  I didn't have anyone else to challenge.
[1212.66 --> 1213.82]  I just challenged myself.
[1213.82 --> 1217.94]  And I will say it's been actually a few years now.
[1218.16 --> 1220.54]  I think two, two and a half, something like that.
[1221.22 --> 1224.68]  And Nextcloud, I will say, is the underpinning of most of it.
[1224.96 --> 1229.18]  Most of the hard stuff, which was calendaring and context syncing.
[1229.68 --> 1233.44]  You know, when it comes to file syncing, I can figure that out in a whole bunch of different ways.
[1233.44 --> 1238.14]  But I will strongly encourage you both to take it pretty seriously.
[1238.14 --> 1248.38]  Because on the other side is a fairly liberating feeling to know that you have control of all of your own deeply personal information.
[1248.68 --> 1249.96]  I mean, something like contacts.
[1249.96 --> 1262.92]  If you think about the people you know and the sensitive information that's in there, it's a little bit surprising to think about what might happen if that got into someone else's hands that would like to mix up your life a little bit.
[1263.26 --> 1264.94]  Well, you heard it here first, ladies and gentlemen.
[1265.14 --> 1267.60]  Brent is our de-googlification referee.
[1268.10 --> 1268.34]  Yeah.
[1268.78 --> 1275.20]  He'll be our correspondent in the de-googled universe, reporting live from an alternative universe.
[1275.20 --> 1278.56]  So the thing is, I mean, there's so many things to this.
[1278.74 --> 1279.58]  There's Maps.
[1279.98 --> 1281.96]  There's Google Maps is so priceless.
[1282.76 --> 1283.12]  Maps.
[1284.38 --> 1285.12]  Oh, no.
[1285.36 --> 1285.72]  I know.
[1286.36 --> 1289.44]  And you could, like, if you're on the iPhone, you could use Apple Maps.
[1289.70 --> 1290.14]  You could.
[1290.84 --> 1292.32]  And in the RV, I've got a Garmin.
[1292.62 --> 1301.86]  But I tell you what, when I get to a new town, and, like, legitimately has happened several times on this road trip, I trust Google Maps to have the most up-to-date information.
[1302.58 --> 1304.36]  That's going to be really hard for me to kick.
[1304.36 --> 1305.88]  I really haven't thought this through.
[1305.96 --> 1307.40]  This is going to be so hard.
[1307.66 --> 1311.84]  Well, I can give you a few pointers based on what I've gone through.
[1312.04 --> 1313.32]  Are you not using Google Maps?
[1313.64 --> 1317.96]  Well, so that's a really good example of, I think, the concept I'm about to explain.
[1318.12 --> 1318.26]  Okay.
[1318.62 --> 1326.96]  And so I'll start with saying that I use the exact same concept with my dietary choices.
[1326.96 --> 1330.60]  So when people say, oh, how do you eat, Brent?
[1330.68 --> 1338.64]  I say, well, I'm, like, trying my very best to eat as vegan as possible, but that never always works out.
[1338.64 --> 1349.16]  So what I would say for you both in de-Google-fying is you'll never likely get to 100%, and you need to be okay with that.
[1349.16 --> 1370.26]  Because if you can do it even 80%, 90%, 95% of the time and only rely on Google in certain instances, maybe when Maps in Google has the only updated information on this new ring road around your city and nobody else does or something like that, then I think you're already making a massive difference in your life.
[1370.26 --> 1374.44]  And you shouldn't feel bad about that 5% or whatever it may be.
[1374.82 --> 1374.94]  Amen.
[1375.30 --> 1376.08]  Yeah, absolutely.
[1376.34 --> 1381.94]  So the idea behind this challenge is to do exactly what we've just done, you know, pick a service.
[1381.94 --> 1385.64]  In this case, it was Google as a whole, but let's take Maps as an example.
[1386.20 --> 1388.94]  Discuss what would be required to drop that service.
[1389.48 --> 1394.80]  Figure out in the intervening two weeks some options we could use to try and replace it with.
[1394.80 --> 1401.38]  And then in the following episode, repeat that cycle, pick a new service and report back on how the old one went.
[1401.80 --> 1405.98]  I mean, I kind of feel like if I was going to do it, I could try Maps while I'm on the road.
[1406.12 --> 1410.76]  Like, this is an opportunity to try alternative mapping and routing.
[1410.86 --> 1419.02]  I know there's a few apps I could give a go, so maybe I'll try just, this is going to be crazy, but while I'm on the road trip, I'll try for the next two weeks not to use Google Maps.
[1419.28 --> 1420.08]  See how that goes.
[1420.32 --> 1420.94]  Go for it, yeah.
[1420.94 --> 1423.64]  I have a question about your choices of alternatives.
[1423.64 --> 1431.26]  Will you try to make them free and open source or just try to be an equivalent replacement?
[1431.56 --> 1432.54]  What's the name of the show, Brent?
[1433.92 --> 1438.00]  I'm thinking, like, for mapping, I don't know what would be even equivalent, right?
[1438.12 --> 1440.38]  So then I think it's, like, not so much equivalent.
[1440.50 --> 1441.84]  It's about just core functionality.
[1442.18 --> 1443.20]  There's always MapQuest.
[1443.50 --> 1447.86]  Yeah, and I feel like switching to Google Search to look things up isn't an alternative that I can accept either.
[1448.12 --> 1449.52]  So I'll have to give it some thought.
[1449.62 --> 1450.66]  I will have to give it some thought.
[1450.66 --> 1458.64]  I'm going to look into a couple of different apps for it, and I'm also going to look into how Apple Maps works and see what the privacy situation is there, because that's also already on my device.
[1459.06 --> 1460.06]  That's a factor, too.
[1460.62 --> 1461.52]  It's like you're saying.
[1461.68 --> 1465.04]  I love your point about you could just reduce your footprint at Google.
[1465.72 --> 1468.10]  If that's the goal, I think that's something I could get behind.
[1468.78 --> 1472.76]  But it doesn't necessarily mean I want to increase my footprint somewhere else, right?
[1472.76 --> 1474.60]  So that's the math I'm going to have to do.
[1474.92 --> 1481.24]  I don't mind taking two steps forward and one step back with this over the next few years, because that's how long I genuinely think it will take.
[1481.62 --> 1482.46]  I just worry.
[1482.58 --> 1492.68]  You know, you see people like Apple who were genuinely supposed to be the privacy-first people rolling out stuff like this, CSAM protections.
[1492.68 --> 1496.72]  And you just think, yeah, it's never going to get any better.
[1497.02 --> 1498.56]  It's up to me to take control.
[1498.70 --> 1500.62]  It's up to me to host this stuff.
[1500.80 --> 1507.00]  And if I, you know, take my daughter, for example, I think there's one photograph of her on Facebook.
[1507.32 --> 1509.14]  One in the last six months.
[1509.34 --> 1511.34]  And I want to keep it as low as that.
[1511.42 --> 1512.22]  One every six months.
[1512.32 --> 1516.32]  I mean, why does Facebook need all of that data to mine on her?
[1516.32 --> 1518.30]  So it's not her choice.
[1518.38 --> 1520.80]  She can't make that choice yet because she's six months old, you know.
[1521.04 --> 1525.64]  When she's old enough to make that choice for herself and understand the implications, then fair enough.
[1525.78 --> 1529.12]  But it's not really my place to share her pictures everywhere, is it?
[1530.88 --> 1532.96]  Leno.com slash SSH.
[1533.04 --> 1536.24]  Go there to get $100 in 60-day credit on a new account.
[1536.32 --> 1538.56]  And you go there to support this here podcast.
[1539.12 --> 1545.88]  You know, this show is made possible independent content like this by our listeners taking advantage of our sponsor's offer.
[1545.88 --> 1549.18]  And Linode is one that we can enthusiastically endorse.
[1549.82 --> 1550.26]  We use it.
[1550.38 --> 1551.00]  We love it.
[1551.10 --> 1554.62]  It is powering our live tracker right now as we go down the road.
[1555.12 --> 1558.56]  Linode started in 2003 as one of the very first companies in cloud computing.
[1559.08 --> 1560.68]  You know, that was 18 years ago.
[1561.98 --> 1563.42]  That's like a whole other internet.
[1563.52 --> 1565.14]  And the entire time, they've stayed competitive.
[1565.58 --> 1571.54]  They've increased the capabilities, the performance, the smooth slickness of the dashboard.
[1572.00 --> 1574.08]  Over time, they became their own ISP.
[1574.08 --> 1576.78]  They've built out to 11 data centers around the world.
[1577.26 --> 1578.66]  Super crazy fast systems.
[1578.78 --> 1582.90]  They're always investing in the disk I.O., in the CPUs, in the network connections.
[1583.02 --> 1587.40]  And now, they've got nearly a million customers and businesses around the globe.
[1587.52 --> 1590.20]  But yet, Linode's core focus remains.
[1590.56 --> 1596.50]  They're making cloud computing simple, affordable, and really accessible to all of us.
[1596.56 --> 1599.76]  If you're a sysadmin that's been doing this for years, or if you've never set up a server,
[1599.76 --> 1601.64]  you can get started at Linode.
[1602.06 --> 1607.82]  And I think that focus has really led to the best-in-class dashboard, speed, and more importantly,
[1608.00 --> 1608.76]  customer service.
[1608.76 --> 1611.74]  When you do need it, they've got the very best in the business.
[1612.12 --> 1615.94]  And then, as you start to use Linode, or something you could use that $100 credit to
[1615.94 --> 1620.58]  check out, is some of their nice features, like the S3-compatible object storage.
[1621.00 --> 1625.14]  Think about all of the software, like the backup software you have, or different ways you can
[1625.14 --> 1629.52]  mount file systems that support S3-compatible object storage.
[1629.80 --> 1632.94]  Start thinking about what you could do with that, not even from a server standpoint, but
[1632.94 --> 1635.06]  just a cloud storage standpoint that you control.
[1635.18 --> 1637.00]  You encrypt, and then you upload.
[1637.40 --> 1638.62]  Plus, they have cloud firewalls.
[1638.66 --> 1641.00]  VLAN support a very powerful DNS manager.
[1641.44 --> 1642.76]  Block storage as well.
[1643.56 --> 1645.50]  I know some of you still prefer the traditional disk.
[1645.56 --> 1646.12]  They've got that.
[1646.12 --> 1652.68]  And they also support things like Terraform and Kubernetes, if that's the direction you're
[1652.68 --> 1652.86]  going.
[1652.86 --> 1657.56]  They got all of that, and you combine that with the fact that you can get $100 and support
[1657.56 --> 1658.58]  the self-hosted podcast.
[1659.24 --> 1662.90]  Well, what kind of maniac wouldn't go to linode.com slash SSH?
[1663.26 --> 1667.06]  Get that $100 60-day credit on your new account, and you support the show.
[1667.16 --> 1672.34]  And by the way, if you're coming to our Denver meetup next week, Linode will be there.
[1672.42 --> 1676.24]  They're going to be giving out prizes, Linode credit, raspberry pies.
[1676.42 --> 1680.58]  I mean, Linode is going all in on our road trip, and they're helping support it.
[1680.82 --> 1681.32]  It's great.
[1681.32 --> 1682.62]  And we'd love to see you at the meetup.
[1683.02 --> 1688.22]  That's linode.com slash SSH to get $100 in 60-day credit on a new account and to support
[1688.22 --> 1688.62]  the show.
[1689.18 --> 1691.24]  Linode.com slash SSH.
[1692.92 --> 1697.84]  I know you've got this whole road trip prep ritual where you update things a couple of
[1697.84 --> 1701.66]  nights before in critical systems the week before and all this kind of stuff.
[1701.66 --> 1703.56]  What did you upgrade this time?
[1704.08 --> 1705.54]  You are correct.
[1705.68 --> 1707.40]  And yes, I did do some updates.
[1709.04 --> 1713.84]  This time, you know what I wanted to do is I wanted to try out the new PyHole because I
[1713.84 --> 1714.68]  was sniffing around.
[1715.22 --> 1718.52]  You know, PyHole is one of these things, for those of you who maybe are not familiar, PyHole
[1718.52 --> 1724.28]  is it's like a nice DNS manager that can block ads, maybe block adult material.
[1724.28 --> 1726.10]  It has a lot of advantages.
[1726.10 --> 1730.68]  It's also a DHCP server, so it can hand out addressing and then give your systems on your
[1730.68 --> 1731.52]  network names.
[1731.64 --> 1734.06]  And it gives you a beautiful dashboard to see everything on there.
[1734.14 --> 1735.82]  It just, you know, checks all my boxes.
[1736.18 --> 1739.88]  And you can run it as a Docker container, which is what I'm doing on a Raspberry Pi.
[1739.88 --> 1744.78]  And I have version four on there forever, since I talked about it on the show.
[1744.84 --> 1745.58]  And it's just been running.
[1745.78 --> 1746.76]  You know, I don't even mess with it.
[1747.48 --> 1750.06]  But I thought, you know what I want to do on this road trip?
[1750.12 --> 1754.82]  Because I'm an old man and I go to bed, as Brent could attest, really early.
[1755.62 --> 1755.98]  Quite.
[1756.26 --> 1756.54]  Yeah.
[1756.88 --> 1758.12]  I've had to change my schedule.
[1758.22 --> 1759.40]  When do you normally go to bed?
[1759.58 --> 1764.26]  Well, if left to my own devices, I drift deep into the night.
[1764.28 --> 1764.46]  Yeah.
[1765.02 --> 1767.38]  But that doesn't serve most people around me.
[1767.38 --> 1769.88]  Yeah, we're doing like, what, 9, 10 p.m. at the latest?
[1770.26 --> 1774.54]  And so I don't want the kids up much later than that, browsing the internet.
[1774.54 --> 1778.54]  Because they can just, you know, get their devices after dad nods off and start browsing
[1778.54 --> 1779.00]  the web.
[1779.10 --> 1782.26]  And so we're watching YouTube more likely, let's be honest.
[1782.66 --> 1784.82]  And so I wanted to be able to pause their devices.
[1784.82 --> 1786.94]  And I had read that you could do that in PyHole.
[1787.06 --> 1791.04]  But I logged into my PyHole setup, and I had just done a Docker poll.
[1791.32 --> 1793.82]  You know, so it should be totally up to date.
[1794.18 --> 1796.78]  And I log in, and it's several versions behind.
[1796.78 --> 1802.30]  And I'm looking at my Docker compose file, and I see it's using the latest tag, you know,
[1802.34 --> 1803.04]  for the latest image.
[1803.12 --> 1805.18]  And I think, okay, well, why aren't I getting that?
[1805.20 --> 1808.08]  I'm starting to think maybe there's some compatibility problem.
[1808.48 --> 1812.24]  So I start looking into it, and it turns out, no, I'm using the wrong tag.
[1812.58 --> 1816.92]  I was supposed to be using PyHole master, ARM64 buster, because I'm on a buster-based
[1816.92 --> 1817.18]  Debian.
[1818.12 --> 1819.90]  And so I set the right tag in there.
[1819.94 --> 1820.86]  I get the right image.
[1820.96 --> 1822.42]  I pull down version 5.
[1822.46 --> 1824.08]  It's like version 5.3 or whatever.
[1824.24 --> 1824.92]  Working great.
[1824.92 --> 1826.30]  The upgrade goes super smooth.
[1826.68 --> 1829.14]  You know, congrats to the PyHole team for making that easy.
[1829.92 --> 1833.12]  And yet I can't pause the devices like I read, like I should be able to.
[1833.84 --> 1835.96]  I grouped up the kids' devices by MAC addresses.
[1836.16 --> 1837.02]  I go into their group.
[1837.10 --> 1837.82]  I say disable.
[1838.42 --> 1840.98]  And I think what I'm just doing is disabling the PyHole filtering.
[1841.08 --> 1842.72]  I don't think I'm disabling their internet access.
[1843.18 --> 1846.78]  So I went through this whole rigmarole, getting this whole system updated, so that way we'd
[1846.78 --> 1848.74]  have the latest PyHole while we're going down the road.
[1848.74 --> 1852.98]  Because my theory is, let's block the ads at the network level, so that way I'm not wasting
[1852.98 --> 1854.56]  network bandwidth, you know?
[1854.62 --> 1855.76]  Because we have limited network bandwidth.
[1855.86 --> 1856.70]  Anything I can do.
[1857.26 --> 1860.92]  So PyHole, it's working great, but it's not giving me the results I wanted.
[1861.22 --> 1864.90]  I wanted to be able to pause the kids' internet when I go to bed, and I cannot do it.
[1864.94 --> 1870.22]  If anybody out there knows a way to do this with PyHole, or a relatively straightforward
[1870.22 --> 1874.76]  way to just accomplish this that doesn't require a specific router software or whatever,
[1874.76 --> 1875.70]  I'd love to know.
[1876.20 --> 1877.66]  Selfhost.show.contact.
[1878.04 --> 1885.32]  But the upshot is, upgrading from PyHole 4 to PyHole 5.3.whatever, super smooth, totally
[1885.32 --> 1885.72]  flawless.
[1886.26 --> 1887.56]  Once I got the right tag in there.
[1888.22 --> 1889.18]  I have a question.
[1889.28 --> 1894.44]  Would you be able to tie that into your Home Assistant goodnight kids recipe?
[1894.88 --> 1895.70]  Oh, I could imagine.
[1895.92 --> 1899.38]  I do pull in Home Assistant, there is a PyHole integration.
[1899.38 --> 1907.82]  And so I do pull into Home Assistant the amount of active network clients and some DNS stats
[1907.82 --> 1908.70]  for the day.
[1908.98 --> 1913.08]  And I graph them in Home Assistant on the dashboard, just for my own fun.
[1913.94 --> 1918.32]  And I don't know, but I bet you there is a way you could totally do that, is when I run
[1918.32 --> 1921.70]  that script, it also would pause their devices.
[1922.50 --> 1922.60]  Right.
[1922.76 --> 1923.60]  Have a look in your Telegram.
[1923.70 --> 1924.62]  I've just sent you a picture.
[1924.62 --> 1924.74]  Yeah.
[1925.12 --> 1927.36]  This is of the AdGuard Home interface.
[1927.86 --> 1932.10]  And just look at all the different services that you can toggle on and toggle off.
[1932.28 --> 1936.86]  And then also look at the top of this page where it says, select the tags that correspond
[1936.86 --> 1938.08]  to a specific client.
[1938.44 --> 1940.92]  You know, the tag being child or whatever it is.
[1941.38 --> 1942.56]  Doesn't this do what you need?
[1943.38 --> 1943.78]  Ah.
[1944.32 --> 1944.74]  Yeah.
[1944.82 --> 1949.94]  You know, the only thing that's funny thing about it is it felt like this, this approach
[1949.94 --> 1952.92]  with AdGuard, because I actually gave AdGuard about a 20 minute try.
[1952.92 --> 1956.72]  It didn't have like, just turn off everything.
[1957.50 --> 1963.64]  You can go in and block individual services like eBay, Hulu, Discord, Amazon, Instagram,
[1963.94 --> 1969.66]  Facebook, Telegram, Twitch, YouTube, all which actually would basically do the job, to be
[1969.66 --> 1970.16]  honest with you.
[1970.18 --> 1972.90]  If I just turned off YouTube, that did 90% of it.
[1973.58 --> 1975.86]  But I just want turn off internet access.
[1976.32 --> 1977.90]  Like, just don't route them.
[1978.56 --> 1980.60]  Could you send them to a dud DNS server?
[1981.04 --> 1982.60]  I was wondering about that.
[1982.60 --> 1988.46]  You know, it would have to be a pretty short DHCP lease that somehow switched around bedtime
[1988.46 --> 1989.74]  or something like that.
[1990.34 --> 1990.86]  I don't know.
[1991.40 --> 1993.34]  Or maybe reboot the Wi-Fi access point.
[1993.46 --> 1995.74]  Then every client gets a new IP.
[1995.92 --> 1998.14]  And at that point, they all get ratted to like nowhere.
[1999.24 --> 2004.86]  I mean, I think the AdGuard solution may be just simpler because if you turn off, it's
[2004.86 --> 2006.86]  funny that Cloudflare is one of the services in here.
[2006.94 --> 2011.28]  I mean, if you turn off Cloudflare, you're going to break a lot of the internet right there.
[2011.28 --> 2014.12]  And then if I turn off YouTube, that's going to do pretty much the rest of it for them.
[2014.44 --> 2014.50]  Yeah.
[2014.64 --> 2016.16]  So maybe I'll go back to AdGuard.
[2016.48 --> 2020.64]  I think I liked the DHCP server setup better in PyHole when I was looking at the two, though.
[2021.10 --> 2025.72]  One option might just be throw them on a different Wi-Fi network and switch that off.
[2026.02 --> 2026.94]  Yeah, that's true.
[2027.04 --> 2028.28]  I could have a kid Wi-Fi network.
[2028.56 --> 2029.32]  That's the one, Brent.
[2029.54 --> 2031.52]  The simple solutions are always the best.
[2031.52 --> 2032.82]  Simplicity, gentlemen.
[2033.36 --> 2035.88]  You know, I do need another Wi-Fi network in this thing.
[2036.30 --> 2037.86]  I've got like six or something.
[2038.34 --> 2038.82]  I don't know.
[2038.86 --> 2039.38]  It's ridiculous.
[2039.52 --> 2041.48]  But yeah, that would probably work, huh?
[2041.80 --> 2045.42]  If you have a better idea, let us know at selfhosted.show slash contact.
[2045.80 --> 2050.54]  Now, in the meantime, 1Password had been busy this week and released version 8.
[2051.16 --> 2055.76]  Yeah, version 8 of what I used to think was one of the best password managers out there.
[2055.76 --> 2062.96]  And they recently released a Linux desktop version and they announced that the backend was written in Rust.
[2063.04 --> 2065.10]  And I thought, hey, isn't that just fantastic?
[2065.78 --> 2070.72]  But version 8 is switching to a subscription-only service, Alex.
[2070.76 --> 2073.40]  And I think there's kind of a big loss in functionality with that.
[2073.96 --> 2075.98]  $3 a month to manage your passwords.
[2076.96 --> 2081.74]  Why do we need a password manager to be a subscription service?
[2081.74 --> 2087.40]  Not only that, why do we need a password manager that can no longer handle local vaults?
[2088.10 --> 2091.32]  My mind is just blowing out right now.
[2091.46 --> 2096.70]  When I read this news this week, I just couldn't believe they would make such a dumb move.
[2097.28 --> 2104.24]  And then I saw that they took a $200 million Series A funding late in 2019 and suddenly all became clear.
[2104.76 --> 2105.52]  Oh, yeah.
[2105.60 --> 2107.66]  Okay, that does kind of connect the dots, doesn't it?
[2107.70 --> 2108.10]  Unfortunately.
[2108.10 --> 2112.60]  I hate to see it that way, but that's pretty tough not to see.
[2112.68 --> 2114.44]  And then when you combine the changes they're making.
[2114.54 --> 2118.10]  So that Linux Electron app they created with the Rust backend.
[2118.68 --> 2119.10]  Surprise!
[2119.60 --> 2121.74]  Turns out to be what they're switching everybody to.
[2121.84 --> 2124.46]  So now the new Mac version is also Electron.
[2124.60 --> 2133.18]  And the Mac users are pissed because 1Password started as kind of a exclusive to the Apple ecosystem with native applications.
[2133.18 --> 2135.28]  That was what 1Password was special for.
[2135.28 --> 2141.00]  And so now to switch over to Electron, the Mac users are just pissed.
[2141.10 --> 2145.72]  And I don't mean to laugh, but Linux users, we've had to live with that for a while already.
[2146.40 --> 2148.30]  But it's two whammies at once.
[2148.98 --> 2154.40]  An Electron swapperoo and the removal of a local vault.
[2154.80 --> 2159.12]  That's just, well, that's game over right there.
[2159.12 --> 2164.30]  I have 1Password installed on my machine because I was playing around with it to compare it to Bitwarden.
[2164.76 --> 2166.40]  And they just disqualified themselves.
[2166.84 --> 2170.68]  I remember 1Password, I think, was the first password manager I used.
[2171.20 --> 2174.34]  It must have been, because I was still working at the Apple Store at the time.
[2174.46 --> 2177.30]  So it was 2013, I want to say.
[2177.98 --> 2182.40]  And at the time, I thought it was absolutely crazy, the idea of putting all my passwords in one place.
[2182.40 --> 2188.66]  I thought, how can this possibly be more secure than me remembering the password in my head?
[2189.24 --> 2190.04]  Yeah, I remember.
[2190.28 --> 2191.78]  I think I thought that way, too.
[2192.14 --> 2193.68]  Very early on, I was very skeptical.
[2194.00 --> 2196.42]  Yeah, but over time, I mean, my approach has matured.
[2196.48 --> 2198.50]  And everything now lives in my Bitwarden.
[2198.56 --> 2199.64]  And I do mean everything.
[2200.00 --> 2201.54]  WireGuard configs live in there.
[2202.14 --> 2203.34]  A bit of a tangent for a second.
[2203.34 --> 2212.32]  We had a right old chat this week about encrypted storage vaults on Discord with a couple of the guys on there.
[2212.38 --> 2215.56]  One was talking about Cryptomator, which I'll talk about in a future episode.
[2216.06 --> 2219.04]  And another one was talking about Veracrypt.
[2219.70 --> 2221.82]  And both of those are great fun.
[2222.18 --> 2225.18]  But honestly, nothing beats the simplicity of Bitwarden for me.
[2225.30 --> 2227.12]  Just you can store files in there.
[2227.20 --> 2229.96]  You can do all your two-factor stuff in there and all your passwords.
[2229.96 --> 2234.00]  I mean, if you know my master password, I've never said it out loud.
[2235.10 --> 2236.18]  Good for you.
[2236.32 --> 2236.66]  Well done.
[2236.86 --> 2239.24]  I mean, you deserve to crack some of my stuff, I guess.
[2239.86 --> 2243.62]  Bitwarden should totally sponsor this show because I am a big Bitwarden fan now, too.
[2243.98 --> 2245.50]  They totally won out in my tests.
[2245.92 --> 2250.64]  And the fact that there's that Rust implementation of the server that's super easy to get up and running, I'm just all about it.
[2250.68 --> 2251.46]  Have you tried Bitwarden?
[2251.84 --> 2253.50]  You know, I will admit I haven't.
[2253.50 --> 2259.46]  I got onto password managers even earlier than Alex, I will admit.
[2259.46 --> 2259.94]  Wow.
[2260.90 --> 2263.10]  He's really taking this opportunity, Alex.
[2263.58 --> 2266.40]  You don't have me on the show that often, so I got to take it all.
[2266.82 --> 2267.74]  I love it.
[2267.86 --> 2272.22]  So I landed on a great many years ago onto KeyPass databases.
[2272.78 --> 2276.16]  And I will say that they are simpler.
[2277.10 --> 2280.30]  And I have to sync them myself with some other solution.
[2280.54 --> 2282.38]  However, they've been solid.
[2282.78 --> 2286.10]  And my father thinks they're his favorite application ever.
[2286.60 --> 2288.40]  And that says something.
[2288.40 --> 2294.56]  So everyone I've shown it to has enjoyed their simplicity and hasn't needed to think about it much more than that.
[2294.70 --> 2300.04]  So I think Bitwarden, if I was getting into it today, would be the perfect solution for me.
[2300.12 --> 2301.46]  But I don't really have a reason to change.
[2301.46 --> 2304.48]  KeyPass and KeyPass, was it XC, I think?
[2304.78 --> 2306.04]  Very popular options.
[2306.26 --> 2309.30]  But you touched on the reason why I won't consider it.
[2309.38 --> 2312.26]  And that, for me, is the fact that you have to sync it.
[2312.26 --> 2316.04]  With Vault Warden, which is a self-hosted Bitwarden server.
[2316.54 --> 2319.94]  And the hosted service that costs $12 a year.
[2320.58 --> 2321.92]  I never have to think about it.
[2322.06 --> 2333.56]  And for passwords, when I have way too many devices in my life, and I have often got more than one phone and a tablet and a laptop and a desktop and a server and wife's phone and blah, blah, blah.
[2333.56 --> 2335.80]  I just don't need that extra complexity in my life.
[2335.80 --> 2365.78]  Thank you.
[2365.80 --> 2371.78]  And you're all familiar with cloudfree.shop at this point.
[2371.88 --> 2376.28]  You can go over there and use the coupon code self-hosted to get $1 off a smart plug.
[2376.62 --> 2381.26]  The version 2 smart plugs from CloudFree have just launched with built-in energy monitoring.
[2381.94 --> 2384.66]  But some good news for the British people in the audience.
[2385.04 --> 2390.04]  One of our other listeners on the other side of the pond has launched a similar store in England.
[2390.58 --> 2393.10]  This is at mylocalbytes.com.
[2393.10 --> 2400.12]  And to start with, he has launched a couple of Zigbee devices as well as a branded smart plug for LocalBytes.
[2400.12 --> 2403.42]  Again, you can use the coupon code self-hosted to get a pound off that.
[2404.30 --> 2414.86]  But for all of those of you that have been asking me about cloudfree.shop shipping to the UK, well, here's your answer at mylocalbytes.com.
[2414.86 --> 2416.24]  Wow, that's so great.
[2416.30 --> 2418.52]  Now, we have no affiliation with them other than they are listeners.
[2419.00 --> 2420.60]  But this is incredible.
[2420.72 --> 2422.72]  They even have an LED light strip thing there.
[2423.20 --> 2424.06]  What a cool idea.
[2424.56 --> 2425.36]  What a cool idea.
[2425.80 --> 2426.80]  Mylocalbytes.com.
[2427.00 --> 2428.84]  And I love that there's some Zigbee tech in there.
[2428.90 --> 2429.92]  I've been thinking more and more.
[2430.02 --> 2431.74]  I think I'm going to quit getting Wi-Fi devices.
[2431.86 --> 2433.80]  I'm going to go Z-Wave and Zigbee on stuff.
[2433.80 --> 2439.80]  We got an email in about my usage of WallPanel.
[2439.90 --> 2440.90]  The Linux trucker writes,
[2440.98 --> 2443.78]  I was listening to your last episode and heard you talking about WallPanel.
[2444.12 --> 2446.80]  Although it is great software, I feel there is a better option.
[2446.80 --> 2455.56]  The Fully Kiosk browser does everything that WallPanel does, including motion detection, auto launch, and will even function with the Home button on Android.
[2455.94 --> 2459.50]  However, for use with Home Assistant, it takes it a step further.
[2460.32 --> 2466.58]  Fully Kiosk will connect to MQTT and send battery, temperature, and some of the other information to Home Assistant.
[2466.96 --> 2471.94]  I'm using this in combination with a smart outlet to cycle the battery in hopes it will last a little bit longer.
[2473.06 --> 2474.32]  Man, I've been talking about doing that.
[2474.40 --> 2475.36]  That's awesome.
[2475.88 --> 2477.26]  Linux trucker goes on to say,
[2477.36 --> 2481.86]  It also gives you one more device you can use for automations and tinkering in Home Assistant.
[2482.60 --> 2489.08]  This is a very small $5 fee to unlock all of the features, and I don't mind supporting great software that I use every day.
[2489.50 --> 2492.92]  Give it a look before you settle for WallPanel, the Linux trucker.
[2492.92 --> 2495.36]  And we have an anonymous person who wrote in saying,
[2495.66 --> 2496.28]  Hi, Chris Nellix.
[2496.40 --> 2500.66]  I recently bought my first apartment, and construction will take about two years.
[2501.12 --> 2504.56]  My wife is going to focus on the kitchen, the living room, and the bathroom.
[2504.94 --> 2508.28]  Whilst what I'm thinking about are the tech parts of the project.
[2508.56 --> 2509.04]  Of course.
[2509.20 --> 2513.02]  I have many things I'm wondering about, and I'm not entirely sure what to prioritize.
[2513.74 --> 2518.52]  I mean, laying cables and other electrical work is probably going to be one of the more important things,
[2518.52 --> 2524.32]  but I'm already wondering, for example, whether PoE is the right tech or not.
[2525.00 --> 2527.72]  A totally different topic is IoT and home appliances.
[2528.06 --> 2532.82]  You can buy washing machines and ovens and all sorts of things with Wi-Fi built in these days,
[2533.02 --> 2538.40]  but some of this stuff is going to be in a basement where Wi-Fi might not be the best choice.
[2539.10 --> 2541.76]  I am hoping that there is some compromise for all this.
[2542.64 --> 2543.40]  Can you help me?
[2543.40 --> 2548.38]  This is an opportunity because he is so early in the stage of planning.
[2548.52 --> 2550.56]  He can run Cat 7.
[2550.76 --> 2552.82]  He could run Fiber if he wanted to.
[2552.94 --> 2554.94]  I mean, he could really go all out.
[2555.06 --> 2558.28]  And he could also run Ethernet to Wi-Fi access points.
[2558.84 --> 2561.34]  This is how you get your Wi-Fi rock solid, by the way,
[2561.42 --> 2564.84]  is you have multiple Wi-Fi access points that have Ethernet run to them.
[2565.02 --> 2568.66]  And that stuff just works nearly like Ethernet.
[2568.66 --> 2572.54]  I won't say like Ethernet because nothing works like Ethernet, but it's pretty close.
[2573.08 --> 2579.84]  And if you're in this, man, if you're in this stage right now, Anonymous, you are in such a great position.
[2580.10 --> 2584.50]  I mean, imagine, Alex, if you could have been two years before your house was even finished building.
[2584.70 --> 2588.42]  Like, oh, what a great, so many choices, but what a great position to be in.
[2588.80 --> 2591.90]  Well, it's the ultimate conclusion of being a self-hoster, isn't it?
[2591.90 --> 2593.06]  It's to be a self-builder.
[2593.06 --> 2598.22]  So I think in my life plan at some point, it might be 10 years away,
[2598.38 --> 2602.88]  but I really want to build my own house and do all of this stuff and make all these decisions.
[2603.70 --> 2610.12]  And to that point, another one of our listeners is embarking on a similar journey himself up in Vermont.
[2610.74 --> 2613.78]  His name is Matt, and they have a YouTube channel called Adventurous Way.
[2613.88 --> 2615.16]  There'll be a link to it in the show notes.
[2615.54 --> 2619.52]  They've literally only just closed on the 40-acre plot of land up in Vermont.
[2619.52 --> 2621.34]  And currently, Chris, they live in an RV.
[2621.34 --> 2626.94]  So, you know, there's a lot of stuff, a lot of synergy between his approach to stuff and yours right now.
[2627.64 --> 2629.58]  So I'm really curious to see what they're doing.
[2629.66 --> 2633.66]  I've just watched a video tonight where they're cutting back all the trees on the land, for example.
[2633.66 --> 2638.02]  So they're doing it all themselves pretty much right from the very beginning.
[2638.20 --> 2640.84]  And man, does that fill me with some excitement.
[2640.98 --> 2644.12]  I think in the future, you've got to do it.
[2644.12 --> 2644.80]  I've just got to do it.
[2644.96 --> 2645.56]  I feel the same way.
[2645.62 --> 2646.74]  I feel exactly the same way.
[2646.76 --> 2648.22]  So I'm definitely going to check out their channel.
[2648.22 --> 2651.74]  I could see parking Lady Joupes on some land and building from there.
[2652.06 --> 2655.34]  I think that'd be the ultimate final destination for Lady Joupes if I could.
[2655.82 --> 2657.70]  It'd be some piece of land that we park her on.
[2657.94 --> 2661.02]  I can imagine a JB commune right now.
[2661.14 --> 2663.64]  Brent in his little house in the corner.
[2664.10 --> 2664.54]  Totally.
[2665.32 --> 2665.76]  Yes.
[2666.66 --> 2666.92]  Yeah.
[2667.12 --> 2667.32]  Yeah.
[2667.48 --> 2668.18]  You'd be there.
[2668.26 --> 2669.04]  Wes would be there.
[2669.12 --> 2669.74]  It'd be great.
[2670.08 --> 2670.58]  Yeah, man.
[2670.58 --> 2677.30]  You know, I've retrofitted many homes in the last few decades with the technologies of the day.
[2677.30 --> 2688.06]  And I think part of my advice would be to look at the cost of laying a bunch of cable versus what you think the future might bring in the next even five years.
[2688.06 --> 2694.98]  Because some of the homes that I've lived in that have been retrofitted with Ethernet to every room.
[2695.14 --> 2697.78]  Actually, my parents' home right now, we didn't do this.
[2697.88 --> 2700.12]  But there's Ethernet run to every toilet.
[2700.96 --> 2704.92]  You know, just in case you need the best speeds possible.
[2704.92 --> 2707.64]  I don't know why, but I love that idea, actually.
[2707.78 --> 2709.28]  I think I see nothing wrong with that.
[2709.64 --> 2710.38]  That seems reasonable.
[2711.92 --> 2713.98]  But it turns out they never get used.
[2714.54 --> 2723.14]  And nothing ever gets plugged in because the Wi-Fi, even in the basement, is good enough for most of the activities that ever happen in that home.
[2723.28 --> 2730.82]  So I would use some imagination and think about where Wi-Fi is going to be in the next, you know, five to ten years and think about if the cost is worth it.
[2730.82 --> 2734.94]  I know there are people tapping in their keyboards furiously right now.
[2735.14 --> 2735.92]  Run Conduit.
[2736.68 --> 2739.62]  And I think that's probably the best future-proof thing you can do.
[2739.80 --> 2740.00]  Right.
[2740.06 --> 2745.36]  Is to make sure there's plenty of Conduit so you can upgrade the cables later without having to fish through walls.
[2745.94 --> 2748.02]  Jonas writes in along the same line.
[2748.14 --> 2750.16]  He says, I know you guys talk about networking a lot.
[2750.74 --> 2752.24]  We're renovating our house.
[2752.24 --> 2755.12]  We ran Cat7 cables almost to every room.
[2755.26 --> 2759.38]  But we've discovered, to Brent's point, we're still using Wi-Fi a ton.
[2759.82 --> 2764.08]  And so now I'm looking at what are the right APs and switches to use here.
[2764.36 --> 2768.92]  I heard you guys mention recently that you don't think you'd recommend Unify gear anymore.
[2769.32 --> 2770.30]  So now I'm kind of stuck.
[2770.38 --> 2771.54]  Do I go with cheap stuff?
[2771.62 --> 2772.44]  Do I do unmanaged?
[2772.50 --> 2773.58]  Do I do managed switches?
[2774.12 --> 2778.80]  You know, I'm looking for stuff in the range of maybe $1,000, somewhere in there.
[2779.18 --> 2781.10]  Slightly professional gear, but not too crazy.
[2781.10 --> 2782.70]  And he wants to know if we have any recommendations.
[2783.26 --> 2784.44]  This is a good point.
[2784.50 --> 2787.08]  Like, what do you do if you want really great Wi-Fi right now?
[2787.36 --> 2794.86]  I mean, the reality of the situation is I bought the Unify access point I'm looking at right now from my desk in 2015.
[2795.12 --> 2799.78]  And it has just done the job extremely well since then.
[2800.02 --> 2805.30]  Despite all of Unify's wackiness with their policies over the last year or two,
[2805.30 --> 2811.10]  the hardware and the performance of what I put in has just been great.
[2811.44 --> 2813.58]  I can't really fault the actual device.
[2813.94 --> 2817.40]  So with regards to would I purchase it again?
[2817.86 --> 2819.76]  I'm already in the Unify ecosystem.
[2820.16 --> 2822.72]  The pragmatist in me is going, yes, I probably would.
[2822.76 --> 2825.10]  If I needed a third access point in this house, for example,
[2825.34 --> 2828.52]  just to make sure it all meshed and talked together properly,
[2829.10 --> 2830.50]  I'd probably just buy another one.
[2830.50 --> 2835.90]  I know that TP-Link makes some good devices, and Jim Salter's written about those on Ars Technica a little bit.
[2836.50 --> 2841.46]  There are lots of people over at smallnetbuilder.com that regularly review this stuff.
[2841.54 --> 2847.10]  So if you're looking at what the best mesh system is or the best Ethernet backhaul system is,
[2847.36 --> 2850.52]  that's where I'd go for all that advice rather than listening to what I know.
[2851.46 --> 2855.10]  Now, I won't pretend to be an expert, but I do know some people who are.
[2855.10 --> 2866.10]  And I will notably say my older brother, Chris, he very, very, very strongly recommends the MicroTik hardware and software in this area.
[2866.58 --> 2876.16]  He's explored a bunch of it, and he has been very happy over many years with just how powerful their software is,
[2876.26 --> 2878.68]  but also how it can be simple if you need it to be.
[2879.08 --> 2884.82]  And the software that's available is their professional software that gets sent to all of their devices.
[2884.82 --> 2888.16]  So even if you buy their low-end hardware, you get the same software.
[2888.38 --> 2889.92]  So I would recommend looking into that.
[2890.06 --> 2895.98]  I can't make any specific recommendations, but when I asked him, that's what he told me.
[2896.16 --> 2897.34]  So passing that along.
[2897.98 --> 2899.70]  This is an area I'd love to hear what people are using.
[2899.90 --> 2903.78]  What are you actually using out there, and how has it worked for you?
[2903.96 --> 2907.02]  Because I'm also trying to find something else.
[2907.02 --> 2916.38]  And there's so many mesh options out there, but I think all of them, if I'm not mistaken, require cloud connectivity or some sort of cloud account.
[2917.04 --> 2918.30]  And I just don't want any of that.
[2919.52 --> 2923.70]  Unify, I feel like I've already made that concession once before for the stuff we have in the studio.
[2923.96 --> 2924.42]  So, okay.
[2924.98 --> 2926.36]  That's already a concession I've made.
[2926.48 --> 2927.64]  But I'd love some tips.
[2928.10 --> 2930.44]  And if you're sticking with Unify, I'd love to know why, too.
[2930.96 --> 2932.48]  Selfhosted.show slash contact.
[2932.48 --> 2936.60]  And did you see that The Grand Tour aired an episode this week in Scotland?
[2937.18 --> 2938.42]  We watched it on the road, actually.
[2938.88 --> 2941.50]  As a family, we all sat down and watched it and had a great time.
[2941.56 --> 2943.64]  It was more of like a classic episode, I felt, Alex.
[2943.66 --> 2944.64]  Did you get that sense?
[2944.96 --> 2950.90]  Yeah, for my stag do, actually, a buddy of mine and my dad, we rented three cars.
[2951.08 --> 2955.44]  And we did our own mini Top Gear road trip from Edinburgh, actually.
[2955.48 --> 2957.06]  We started in Edinburgh and finished in Edinburgh.
[2957.06 --> 2966.12]  But in the intervening three or four days, we went up to Inverness, drove down the side of Loch Ness, out to the Isle of Skye, and then back through the Trossax.
[2966.26 --> 2972.56]  And, oh, man, I tell you what, Scotland has some of the best driving roads, not cliche, in the world.
[2972.76 --> 2974.38]  It was just a phenomenal trip.
[2974.72 --> 2983.92]  And to watch that episode feeling as homesick as I am at the moment, you know, dude, it was just so perfectly timed.
[2984.48 --> 2985.78]  Yeah, they really made it beautiful, too.
[2985.78 --> 2988.34]  So, yeah, those had to be some of the same roads, right?
[2988.48 --> 2989.58]  Some of them were, yeah.
[2989.82 --> 2999.62]  And I'll tell you what brought me onto this topic was I've been looking at mechanical keyboards lately, and I came across a podcast named Top Clack, you know, like Top Gear.
[2999.92 --> 3001.00]  I just thought that was fun.
[3001.38 --> 3003.82]  TopClack.com if you're a MEC keyboard enthusiast.
[3004.20 --> 3005.08]  Oh, my goodness.
[3005.22 --> 3006.12]  There is a podcast.
[3006.42 --> 3007.04]  Are you kidding me?
[3007.12 --> 3007.88]  Of course there is.
[3007.96 --> 3008.84]  Why am I surprised at all?
[3009.14 --> 3010.08]  Why am I surprised by that?
[3010.10 --> 3011.10]  I shouldn't be surprised by that.
[3011.20 --> 3013.24]  Almost everyone we've met on this trip has had a podcast.
[3013.70 --> 3014.64]  That's true, actually.
[3014.64 --> 3019.28]  I was listening to your podcasting adventures about concrete in Idaho, so.
[3019.68 --> 3019.90]  Yeah.
[3021.00 --> 3027.44]  We did a couple of micro meetups, and we had a group of five at one of them, and literally every single person there had a podcast.
[3027.84 --> 3031.80]  Then we did the Salt Lake City meetup, and there was a handful of people there that had a podcast.
[3032.30 --> 3033.72]  It's the influence you both had.
[3034.92 --> 3035.76]  I don't know.
[3036.22 --> 3037.56]  I don't know, but it was pretty crazy.
[3037.56 --> 3046.46]  And Brent joined you for episode 418 of Linux Unplugged, where there was an absolutely excellent rundown of WireGuard user interfaces.
[3046.98 --> 3052.26]  Yeah, and not only the tools to manage WireGuard, but big news for people that want to use WireGuard on Windows.
[3052.48 --> 3054.64]  There is an alternative to that user space implementation.
[3054.92 --> 3061.80]  There is now a kernel space implementation, and the performance difference is huge.
[3061.80 --> 3070.08]  So Jim Salter from Ars Technica and Two and a Half Admins joined us to talk about that on Unplugged 418 at linuxunplugged.com slash 418.
[3070.44 --> 3072.94]  That's huge with a Y at the beginning, by the way.
[3073.06 --> 3078.80]  Yeah, that's going to be a big deal for people that want to have interconnected Windows and Linux machines or just Windows to Windows machines.
[3079.34 --> 3080.58]  And to be able to use WireGuard, too.
[3080.58 --> 3087.68]  You feel like this is probably going to take WireGuard up to the next level in the enterprise, and you're going to see adoption now just across the board once they get this code done.
[3087.74 --> 3088.50]  It's early days.
[3089.06 --> 3091.52]  It's still experimental, and Jim goes through all the details.
[3092.04 --> 3100.46]  Also, we want to say a special thank you to our members who support this show, our site reliability engineers who sign up at selfhosted.show slash SRE.
[3101.02 --> 3103.14]  You are very special to us in my heart.
[3103.38 --> 3103.98]  Remember that?
[3104.06 --> 3105.06]  You are in my heart right now.
[3105.06 --> 3110.14]  And I say thank you because, you know, as we're out here meeting people and we're doing a road trip like this and all of it.
[3110.24 --> 3114.90]  Oh, and we're also, this is the other big part, is we're almost at a year now of being independent again.
[3114.90 --> 3119.04]  And all of this stuff about how critical our members have been and all that has just been on my mind.
[3119.16 --> 3120.02]  So thank you very much.
[3120.06 --> 3122.86]  And if you'd like to support the show, selfhosted.show slash SRE.
[3123.54 --> 3131.24]  And don't forget, if you're an SRE to listen to the post show, there's going to be an exclusive discount code in there for the merch that we launched last episode.
[3131.74 --> 3133.96]  The Chris and the Badger t-shirts are flying off the shelves.
[3133.96 --> 3140.80]  And just to make sure that everybody that wants one gets one, we're going to keep that up for another couple of weeks and then we're going to retire it.
[3141.22 --> 3145.22]  And then after that, it might make some future special edition appearances.
[3145.46 --> 3145.90]  Who knows?
[3146.04 --> 3152.56]  But if you want one, make sure you go over there and pick one up now because who knows when it will ever come back.
[3152.64 --> 3155.60]  So we're going to extend that discount code for two more weeks.
[3156.12 --> 3160.16]  And come say hi to Chris, Brent and myself in Denver at the meetup.
[3160.26 --> 3162.76]  Go to meetup.com slash Jupiter Broadcasting.
[3162.76 --> 3165.42]  And I've mentioned a couple of times, it matters a lot.
[3165.52 --> 3167.72]  Your feedback, selfhosted.show slash contact.
[3167.92 --> 3169.36]  That's the place to get in touch with us.
[3169.74 --> 3171.06]  You can follow me on Twitter.
[3171.16 --> 3172.36]  I'm at Chris LAS.
[3172.60 --> 3174.10]  And I'm there at Ironic Badger.
[3174.24 --> 3177.76]  And this here show is there at selfhosted.show.
[3178.04 --> 3180.48]  And I want to extend a big thanks to everybody for listening.
[3180.80 --> 3182.94]  That was selfhosted.show slash 51.
[3182.94 --> 3187.54]  See you next time.
[3187.54 --> 3188.44]  I'll see you next time.
[3188.44 --> 3190.92]  Be back.
[3195.78 --> 3195.82]  Bye.
[3195.82 --> 3196.40]  Bye.
[3196.40 --> 3196.56]  Bye.
[3196.56 --> 3196.94]  Bye.
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[3204.78 --> 3205.42]  Bye.
[3205.42 --> 3207.42]  Bye-bye.
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[3211.70 --> 3212.06]  Bye.