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Speaker A: Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science based tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. Today, my guest is Tim Ferriss. Tim Ferriss is an author, a podcaster, an investor, and is known ... |
Speaker B: Well, thank you for the very generous comparison and intro. I'm thrilled to be here. So thanks for having me. And the FOIA body represented an opportunity for me to do a few things. The first was to diversify my identity from outside of the realm of the, say, business category. So it was a deliberate move si... |
Speaker A: Science is often very slow to catch up. You mentioned many things I have questions about. You mentioned paying attention to the new, the very old, or the orphaned. So interesting. And I just thought I'd tell you that when you sit down with a graduate student or a postdoc and they're trying to come up with a ... |
Speaker B: I do both. And I would say that in the case of the four hour body, it's a bit of an anomaly compared to my later books because I had recorded effectively every workout I'd done since age 16. As a competitive athlete, I had a lot of records and I kept copious notes on supplement use and everything imaginable.... |
Speaker A: Where were you training at that time? San Francisco is not famous for amazing gyms. |
Speaker B: It's not famous for amazing gyms. At the time, I was training mostly at a climbing gym called mission Cliffs. They didn't have much, but they had barbells and they had kettlebells. I also had in the walkway leading from the front door of the apartment I was renting. It was more of a house, the front door, al... |
Speaker A: Likewise, on multiple levels. Terrific. And his new book, built to move. His great book. He's so good. |
Speaker B: Yeah, he really not only talks the talk, but walks the walk, and exemplifies many of the capabilities that he teaches, which I take seriously. I like practitioners, not just the people with pretty theories. Although the theories are important, I prefer to see someone who can actually put them into practice. ... |
Speaker A: Wow. And I say wow because, of course, all of this was prior to the publication of Matt Walker's seminal book, why we sleep, which I really see as the book that shifted a lot of people. Fortunately, from the I'll sleep when I'm dead mindset to I'll, you know, to really paying attention to it. And you know, I... |
Speaker B: I would sleep from say four to maybe eleven or twelve. So I would be getting up later and I've had conversations with Matt about this and there are night owls and morning larks. And there are certainly differences in the code, meaning the genetics, but that worked very, very well for me for a very long time.... |
Speaker A: I know several very successful podcasters, Lex Friedmande in particular, who. I think he's trying to follow a more normal schedule now, but he's pseudo nocturnal, at least by my read. And there are a couple other online content creators, Derek from more plates, more dates, who's hyper productive in his domai... |
Speaker B: Yeah, it removes the plausible deniability, which might not be the perfect use of that phrase, but in the sense that it's harder to fool yourself into thinking you're doing something important when you're checking your messages or social media at two in the morning. Who are we kidding, folks? You should be w... |
Speaker A: I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge one of our sponsors, athletic greens. Athletic greens, now called ag one, is a vitamin mineral probiotic drink that covers all of your foundational nutritional needs. I've been taking athletic greens since 2012, so I'm delighted that they're sponsoring the podca... |
Speaker B: I'll mention one other maybe heuristic that I use for trying to peek around corners, which is if I find an example of an outlier trying to find two or three, because one is an exception. Two is interesting, three is worth investigating. That's how I think about it. And I recognize plural of anecdote does not... |
Speaker A: I'd love to hear about those. And along the lines of what I call anecdote data, most of what we know about human memory stems from one patient, Hm, who had his hippocampi removed for epilepsy. And of course, there have been millions, probably close to millions, of studies in animals and humans focusing on th... |
Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, exactly. So there's a lot to be examined. Not all of it will get funding for RCT's. Let's be realistic. This is especially true if you're hoping for any type of directive data. Notice I'm not saying conclusive, but if you are a human who's going to be making decisions about diet, health, exercise... |
Speaker A: Can you say that twice so that the Internet can hear it extra loud and clear? For those of you that are arguing about nutrition on Twitter, it might actually be life wasted. Yeah, I mean, I'm not being judgmental. I mean, I think that there's validity in lots of those pockets. There's stuff that's wrong in l... |
Speaker B: Yeah, I would just say focus on what works for you and your family or your team. And if you're arguing on the Internet, recognize that you're just doing it because you like arguing on the Internet. You're not going to convince anyone of anything, and you're just going to make yourself more frustrated if you ... |
Speaker A: And I just want to say thank you there too. Read that recommendation. I followed the recommendation of not keeping the phone on in my front pocket or back pocket. And that's anecdote. My sperm analysis isn't relevant to this conversation, but worked out. But you could say, well, that's not necessarily becaus... |
Speaker B: Amazing. And I don't expect to get everything right at all. That would be crazy. I'd like to think I'm not totally crazy. And it's very important if you are going to do self experimentation, or experimentation in small groups, which the quantified self community did quite well, and I think still does quite w... |
Speaker A: Yeah, I agree. And I also think that there are a lot of things that just simply will not ever be explored in a randomized control trial. One of the things that Peter and I have talked about before is he texted me, what are your thoughts on BPC 157? This is a gastric peptide that's now been synthesized so peo... |
Speaker B: And that last one you mentioned is one that people miss a lot. People doing these studies are people with careers, who are planning their careers, and so they choose what they're going to invest time in very carefully. So that's another limiter on what will end up in an RCT or not, right? I think that's good... |
Speaker A: And makes sense to me. Yeah, I think it would be fun if ever you were willing that we could do a hybrid podcast on supplement fails. I have some spectacular failures, as do I, and I'm thinking about a few of them. I mean, some that were really like, took me off course. Like, there's one supplement called bul... |
Speaker B: Sounds like an infection. |
Speaker A: I mean, this thing will really spike your testosterone and free testosterone. I'm talking back acne, like, huge strength gains, aggression. It's really wild. And then after about seven to ten days, it all crashes and you go below baseline. Oh, sounds terrible. |
Speaker B: Yeah. |
Speaker A: Even testicular pain. So it was unclear. So if you're a smart person, you halt use, right. So I can understand why people are skeptical of certain things, and then of course, there are supplements that I'm a big fan of and that you're a big fan of. We talked about those things elsewhere, but it might be fun ... |
Speaker B: I could do just experimental fails. Oh, yeah, yeah. End of one. Experimental fails, which include things that people might not think about. For instance, for our body had quite a bit of real estate dedicated to looking at things like PRP, so platelet rich plasma. I think there's a role for it. It's not usefu... |
Speaker A: Not good. |
Speaker B: And that really could have ended very poorly. I ended up having to go to the ER and get it, get it all removed and so on, but that could have ended up in a, in a much, much more severe situation. So you do have to be careful with this stuff. I've become a little more conservative with some what I do, includi... |
Speaker A: Yeah, smart, very smart. I'm curious about some of the things that you talked about in the four hour body and that you've mentioned today, things like accelerometers, continuous glucose monitors, deliberate cold exposure. How many of those things are you still doing on a regular basis, and how many do you us... |
Speaker B: I use as consistently as is practical, so if I'm traveling, it's a little harder. But we're in LA right now. One of the first things I did was find a few options for contrast therapy. One of the first things I did, and by contrast, I do not mean infrared sauna and cold plunge. I'd much rather have hot and co... |
Speaker A: The japanese approach. |
Speaker B: Right. For just speed of vasodilation, particularly for injury recovery. I think it's incredibly helpful for mood regulation, certainly that's the case. And cold water for mood regulation or the treatment of, say, depression, or as a preemptive intervention to avoid or mitigate depression is old, used to be ... |
Speaker A: There'S some research at a UCSF right now. Yeah, really interesting studies. Too early to report. I'm not involved in these, but I think these are really important, important studies because for all the people saying, oh, well, you know, it's ice bath stuff, you know, metabolism this, metabolism that. One th... |
Speaker B: Yeah, and the hyperthermia, especially the way this formatted right now with some of the research is very early stages, there's going to be less adherence, it's not as readily available, say, a cold shower or cold bath. So I do think about the practical implications of that. But right now it's very interesti... |
Speaker A: Just a cue for people I know that slow carb diet achieved great prominence. In fact, wasn't it featured or mentioned in an episode of Orange is the New Black? |
Speaker B: I think it might have been. It's made appearances on a handful of shows. |
Speaker A: Great. I realize that I've been referring to this slow carb diet several times throughout this discussion. So for those that aren't familiar with the slow carb diet, I know they can go look up what that is, but so that we can keep them here for the rest of this discussion and not have to send them out and ba... |
Speaker B: Slow carb diet is intended to be a simple, easy to adhere to diet for people who have perhaps failed other diets. That allows you to recompose your body, so improve muscle mass, decrease body fat percentage. And the rules are really simple, and that's part of what makes it work. It's not ideal for every spor... |
Speaker A: That includes things like oatmeal. |
Speaker B: That includes things like oatmeal. So, roughly speaking, just avoiding things that are white or that could be white will get you pretty far. And yes, there are exceptions, like cauliflower. Fine, you can have cauliflower, but again, don't get fancy, right? It's very easy to outsmart yourself when it comes to... |
Speaker A: Great. Thank you for that. I also want to ask, is it okay to take the day after cheat day and fast, or do one meal that day? When I followed this low carb diet, I benefited from it tremendously. Lost fat, gained muscle, tons of energy. Sleeping great, required less caffeine, all sorts of wonderful things. St... |
Speaker B: I think that if that is what works for you, then that is what works for you. So the slow carb diet template for me is a starting point. And generally I'll say, I think this is from Picasso. Right? It's like, learn the rules as an amateur so you can break them as a professional. But it's like, I recommend mos... |
Speaker A: And no calorie counting. Correct. |
Speaker B: No calorie counting. It tends to be self limiting. When you're eating this much fiber and this much protein, it tends to be very self limiting what you'll want to consume and what you can consume. |
Speaker A: Once again, I had great experiences with slow carb diet and I'm going to go back on. |
Speaker B: Yeah, and nobody, and nobody needs to buy anything to figure it out. If you just search on Tim blog slow carb diet, you'll get everything that you need to get started. No purchase necessary. |
Speaker A: Well, it works very, very well, I'll say that. And it's very straightforward to follow. And it does include the notorious cheat day. Infamous cheat day. And it can be done on a very reasonable budget. And so if people want to learn more about that, they should go to Tim's blog on four hour body and slow carb... |
Speaker B: I would like to do a follow up, but I think with diets in general, there's a lot of reversion to the mean, regression to the mean. So I would expect that some have kept it off and some have not. That would be true of, I think, every possible diet, especially for people who are overcoming behavioral inertia o... |
Speaker A: Sorry to interrupt you. One thing that I really like about it is that um. Many uh, variants on caloric restriction which is because laws of thermodynamics definitely apply. |
Speaker B: Yeah, for sure. |
Speaker A: We're not trying to say they don't. Um, but one of the issues with a lot of things including intermittent fasting, which I sort of do some variant of because I'm not really hungry to eat, I, until about eleven, I like to train in the morning if I can, et cetera, is that they can sometimes prevent best perfor... |
Speaker B: Yeah, it's counterintuitive. And a lot of approaches can work for a lot of different people. Right, to state the obvious, but this particular aspect of this low carb diet is helpful for, let's just say, the majority of the people in that thousand person sample. I was talking about the hypothetical pull from ... |
Speaker A: Massive psoriasis. I mean, my scalp, you know, sloughing off like when I'm in ketosis and going like, what the hell is going on here? Going back on some complex carbohydrates and it. Going away. |
Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. |
Speaker A: I don't need a randomized control trial to know I simply don't want to. |
Speaker B: Run that experiment with your scalp. Yeah. So in the case of, say, time restricted feeding, some people who do intermittent fasting lose a lot of muscle mass. And there are multiple reasons for this. I think people should make use of relatively widely available tools like Dexa and so on, and to ensure that y... |
Speaker A: Incredible. I mean, what the awakening that he's created through his book and going on your podcast, my podcast and others, and letting people be aware that changes in diet can impact mental health. So I think in two, three years it's going to be a duh. And we're not just talking about the difference between... |
Speaker B: Yeah, super exciting. So that's one of the things that I'm paying a lot of attention to right now. There are handful in that realm within the, just say, the interplay of mind and body, since the cartesian duality and separation of those two makes no sense from a biological standpoint. So that's something tha... |
Speaker A: Thanks for revisiting some of the four hour body and slow carb diet and elaborating on some of the process that went into that. And I think creators of all kinds, thinkers of all kinds, and people who are interested in the contents of the four hour body are going to be very grateful for that information. I c... |
Speaker B: Totally, yeah. Few thoughts in no particular order, I would say. The first is, it depends. My recommendations depend a lot on where you are in the arc of your career, in life. If you are in full growth hyperdrive mode and you are trying to build both yourself and your capabilities in a very concentrated way,... |
Speaker A: Were you terrible? Were you in the south bay? |
Speaker B: I was working in San Jose, yeah. |
Speaker A: I mean, no disrespect to San Jose, I'm from the south bay, but there's a bleakness to the south. |
Speaker B: There is a little bit of bleakness. And then I lived across the street in this tiny apartment, lived across the street from the jack in the box in Mountain View. So it's not like I was strolling onto the big stage and just blowing people away. |
Speaker A: Oh, I, I grew up right near Mountain View. I'm very familiar. I probably skated the curves at that jacket. Probably. Did you train at the gold's gym off rings store? |
Speaker B: Did, actually. |
Speaker A: Amazing. That was a great gym. |
Speaker B: That was a great gym. |
Speaker A: That was a great gym. I don't think it's still, I go. |
Speaker B: There super late before my writing sessions and it had the benefit of being open really, really late. And wow. Ringstorf, I haven't thought about that in a long time. So the point is, I also started where a lot of people are starting. And what did I do? I put myself in a high density environment. Next. What ... |
Speaker A: And gatherings where that person has a lot of demands on them. The last place you want to do that. |
Speaker B: The way you're going to make yourself. |
Speaker A: No saliency to that. |
Speaker B: Yeah. The way you're going to make yourself memorable with people like that is to be very professional, always on time, predict what they're going to need or problems they'll run into beforehand and address them before they even think of them, and be easy to deal with. And people like that, high performers, ... |
Speaker A: Yeah. The being easy to work with is something that I used to tell my graduate students postdocs, because the opposite of that, nobody wants. Nobody wants that. |
Speaker B: Yeah. Especially in the beginning, like later. Okay, great. You're Steve Jobs. You want to be difficult here and there, or a lot, no problem. But in the beginning, that can be a real liability. You can make up for that if you are the best in the world, but in the very beginning, you probably won't be. So try... |
Speaker A: Clubhouse still going? |
Speaker B: Maybe not. I have no idea. |
Speaker A: Oh, no. I don't know. I'm not saying it's gone. I just remember during the pandemic, there were some clubhouse gatherings that hopped on there, but I've sort of forgotten to. Together. |
Speaker B: Maybe not. The platform affinity is really fickle, which is why I think, to the extent possible, if you want to build a world class, and I use that term very deliberately, network in record time, just to give you a nice headline, I would say focus on the uncrowded channel, which is in person, it's out of fas... |
Speaker A: Point, people still hand them out. |
Speaker B: Yeah, people still hand them out. I guess depends on where you are, especially, like, Boston. But rather than trying to collect people as Pokemon cards, developing, say, three to five deeper relationships through longer conversations at an event, that is what directly led ultimately to the hockey stick for t... |
Speaker A: Yeah. Whether or not it's health practices or nutritional practices or at meetings, it seems you're oriented toward the uncrowded but very interesting people in spaces. But the keyword there, I think, is uncrowded. And, of course, the other keyword is interesting. Right? I mean, it's not like you're standing... |
Speaker B: Here's another one. I think there's a tendency among people who want to develop their networks or their relationships to be star fuckers, not to get too technical. |
Speaker A: But that's a technical term, yeah. Yeah. |
Speaker B: They want to tell other people they are friends with someone more than they want to develop skills or learn from someone. This puts you in a very disadvantaged position, because then that means, all right, you want to become friends with Elon Musk. Good luck. Or you want to become friends with this a lister ... |
Speaker A: On the other, they have staff to prevent from having. |
Speaker B: They have a phalanx of protectors to prevent you from ever getting to that person. On the other hand, if you're approaching it from the standpoint of developing skills, learning, and actually becoming potential friends with someone, I'll give you an example you could go after. You want to become better at bo... |
Speaker A: Yeah. And I'm not sure what the value of saying one knows somebody very famous is. It's just never been something that I've oriented to. |
Speaker B: It's a common orientation, though, and I think that's true for a lot of things. Like many people use, say psychedelics because they want to tell other people the story that they have of doing psychedelics. They're not doing it intrinsically for what they hope to get out of that experience. Maybe there's part... |
Speaker A: What a great, great thing to think about, right? |
Speaker B: Like, if I could, if I could have. Let's just say we didn't know each other. And I was like, okay, I'm earlier in my career, let's apply some constraints. So I'm not where I am. I still want to do a, b, and c in the public eye. Maybe I want to build a podcast, whoever. If I could meet with you, but I could n... |
Speaker A: I don't know. Would you? I would. I would. But I would, too. |
Speaker B: But. But for a lot of folks, if. |
Speaker A: This meaning I'd meet with you, I'm not saying I'd meet with me, by the way. I'd meet with me. Believe me, I meet with me all the time, and sometimes it's pretty unpleasant. |
Speaker B: And that can be applied to all sorts of things, right. And it's a useful question because I asked myself this for examining your motivations, and I'm not saying one motivation is always better than another, but you should at least be aware of your driving motivations, because you can end up playing games you... |
Speaker A: Yeah, that's a great question. Much harder to answer. And at the same time, I'm called back to when I was a graduate student. And still now with the podcast, I have this litmus test, which is. Is the experiment that I'm working on. The one that I want to be working on most of is the podcast that I'm working ... |
Speaker B: Yeah. I literally have a document with questions that I've gathered from Seth printed out. And at the Airbnb where I'm staying here. |
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