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A | Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science based tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. Today, I have the pleasure of introducing Doctor Lex Friedman as our guest on the Huberman Lab podcast. Doct... |
B | We meet again. |
A | We meet again. Thanks so much for sitting down with me. I have a question that I think is on a lot of people's minds, or ought to be on a lot of people's minds, because we hear these terms a lot these days. But I think most people, including most scientists and including me, don't know really what is artificial intelli... |
B | Well, I think that question is as complicated and as fascinating as the question of what is intelligence? So I think of artificial intelligence first as a big philosophical thing. Pamela McCordick said, AI was the ancient wish to forge the gods, or was born as an ancient wish to forge the gods. So I think at the big ph... |
A | Oh, I see that. Play games. |
B | That play games. |
A | Got it. |
B | So the idea of self play, this probably applies to other domains than just games, is a system that just plays against itself. And this is fascinating in all kinds of domains, but it knows nothing in the beginning. And the whole idea is it creates a bunch of mutations of itself and plays against those versions of itself... |
A | No, please keep going. I'm learning. I have questions, but I'm learning, so please keep going. |
B | So to me, what's exciting is not the theory. It's always the application. One of the most exciting applications of artificial intelligence, specifically neural networks and machine learning, is Tesla autopilot. So these are systems that are working in the real world. This isn't an academic exercise. This is human lives... |
A | These are automated vehicles. Autonomous vehicles. |
B | Semi autonomous. Okay, we've gone through wars on these topics. |
A | Semi autonomous. |
B | Semi autonomous. So even though it's called FSD, full self driving, it is currently not fully autonomous, meaning human supervision is required. So human is tasked with overseeing the systems. In fact, liability wise, the human is always responsible. This is a human factor psychology question, which is fascinating. I a... |
A | We do this as adults. |
B | We do this as adults. Exactly. But we learn really quickly. But the whole point, and this is the fascinating thing about driving, is you realize there's millions of edge cases. There's just, like, weird situations that you did not expect. And so the data engine process is you collect those edge cases, and then you go b... |
A | Is the updating done by humans? |
B | The annotation is done by humans. So you have to, the weird examples come back, the edge cases, and you have to label what actually happened in there. There's also some mechanisms for automatically labeling, but mostly, I think you always have to rely on humans to improve to understand what's happening in the weird cas... |
A | To be the case. First of all, this is a beautiful description of terms that I've heard many times among my colleagues at Stanford at meetings in the outside world. And there's so many fascinating things. I have so many questions. But I do want to ask one question about the culture of AI, because it does seem to be a co... |
B | Yeah, I think so. First of all, the more specific you get, the less disagreement there is. So there's a lot of disagreement about what is artificial intelligence, but there's less disagreement about what is machine learning, and even less when you talk about active learning or machine teaching or self supervised learni... |
A | I didn't know that. I mean, I grew up in the age of neuroscience, when neural networks were discussed, computational neuroscience and theoretical neuroscience, they had their own journals. It wasn't actually taken terribly seriously. By experimentalists until a few years ago, I would say about five to seven years ago. ... |
B | No, they were always. No, they're always the same thing. |
A | Interesting. It was so I'm a neuroscientist, and. |
B | I didn't know that so well, because neural networks probably mean something else in neuroscience. Not something else, but a little different flavor depending on the field. And that's fascinating, too, because neuroscience and AI people have started working together and dancing a lot more in the recent, I would say, pro... |
A | Oh, machines are going into the brain. I have a couple questions, but one thing that I'm sort of fixated on that I find incredibly interesting is this example you gave of playing a game with a mutated version of yourself as a competitor. I find that incredibly interesting as a kind of a parallel or a mirror for what ha... |
B | No, you don't know until you get. So you mutate first and then figure out, and they compete against each other. |
A | So you're evolving. Your. The machine gets to evolve itself in real time. |
B | Yeah. And I think of it, which would be exciting if you could actually do with humans. It's not just so usually you freeze a version of the system so really you take an andrew of yesterday and you make ten clones of them and then maybe you mutate, maybe not. And then you do a bunch of competitions of the Andrew of toda... |
A | Do you think that darwin's theory of evolution might have worked in some sense in this way? But at the population level, I mean, you get a bunch of birds with different shaped beaks and some birds have the shaped beak that allows them to get the seeds. I mean, it's a trivial, trivially simple example of darwinian evolu... |
B | So with, I should probably have said this, but perhaps it's implied with machine learning or reinforcement learning through these processes. One of the big requirements is to have an objective function, a loss function, a utility function. Those are all different terms for the same thing, is there's an equation that sa... |
A | Systems because it's a game. Like with chess, there's a goal, but. |
B | For anything, anything you want machine learning to solve, there needs to be an objective function. In machine learning. It's usually called loss function that you're optimizing. The interesting thing about evolution, complicated, of course, but the goal also seems to be evolving. Like it's, I guess adaptation to the e... |
A | Has to have a meaning of artificial intelligence based life. |
B | Right? It can't. So there's a lot of interesting explorations about that function being more about curiosity, about learning new things and all that kind of stuff, but it's still hard coded. If you want a machine to be able to be good at stuff, it has to be given very clear statements of what good stuff means. That's o... |
A | I love that you mentioned curiosity. I'm sure this definition falls short in many ways, but I define curiosity as a strong interest in knowing something, but without an attachment to the outcome. It's sort of a, it could be a random search, but there's not really an emotional attachment. It's really just a desire to di... |
B | Yeah. Curiosity is a kind of symptom, not the goal. So what happens is one of the big trade offs in reinforcement learning is this exploration versus exploitation. So when you know very little, it pays off to explore a lot, even suboptimal, like even trajectories that seem like they're not going to lead anywhere. That'... |
A | So there's no dopamine for. |
B | There's no dopamine. |
A | There's no reward system, chemical or I guess, electronic reward system. |
B | That said, if you look at machine learning literature and reinforcement learning literature, they will use, like, DeepMind will use terms like dopamine. We're constantly trying to use the human brain to inspire totally new solutions to these problems. So they'll think, like, how does dopamine function in the human brai... |
A | Yeah. We don't actually know what we're looking. |
B | For and seeking and doing well, like Lisa Feldman Barrett. He's spoken with at least on Instagram. I hope you met her through you. Yeah, yeah. I hope you actually have her on this podcast. She's terrific. So she has a very. It has to do with homeostasis like that. Basically, there's a very dumb objective function that ... |
A | So you think that robots and or machines of some sort are going to start telling human stories? |
B | Well, definitely. So the technical field for that is called explainable AI. Explainable artificial intelligence is trying to figure out how you get the AI system to explain to us humans why the hell it failed or why it succeeded, or there's a lot of different sort of versions of this, or to visualize how it understands... |
A | Why'd you fall down the stairs? |
B | Yeah, but not an engineering question, but almost like, endearing question, like, I'm looking for if I fell and you and I were hanging out. I don't think you need an explanation. Exactly. What were the dynamic? Like, what was the underactuated system? Problem here. Like, what was the texture of the floor or so on? Or, ... |
A | No, I want to know what you're thinking. |
B | That. Or you might joke about like, you're drunk again, go home or something. Like, there could be humor in it. That's an opportunity. Like, storytelling isn't just explanation of what happened. It's something that makes people laugh, makes people fall in love, makes people dream, and understand things in a way that po... |
A | I mean, I find this incredible because one of the hallmarks of severe autism spectrum disorders is a report of experience from the autistic person that is very much a catalog of action steps. It's like, how do you feel today? And they'll say, well, I got up, and I did this, and then I did this and I did this. And it's ... |
B | Okay, there's a million ways to explore this question. It's a fascinating one. First of all, there's a question of, what is life like? How do you know something is a living form and not. And it's similar to the question of when does sort of a. Maybe a cold computational system becomes a. Well, we're already loading the... |
A | So it could be through language or sound, or it could be through movement or both. |
B | Yeah. And I think it could also be in the digital space. As long as there's an aspect of entity that's inside the machine and a world that's outside the machine, and there's a sense in which the machine is sensing that world and acting in it. |
A | So it could, for instance, there could be a version of a robot according to the definition that I think you're providing, where the robot, where I go to sleep at night, and this robot goes and forages for information that it thinks I want to see loaded onto my desktop in the morning. There was no movement of that machi... |
B | Yeah. There's a distinction that I think is important in that there's an element of it being an entity, whether it's in the digital or the physical space. So when you have something like Alexa in your home, most of the speech recognition, most of what Alexa is doing is constantly being sent back to the mothership. When... |
A | Because it supersedes the human brain in that moment. |
B | So not supersedes, like, outperforms, but surprises you in a positive sense. Like, I didn't think you could do that. I didn't think that you had that in you. And I think that moment is a big transition for a robot from a moment of being a servant, that particular. That accomplishes a particular task with some level of ... |
A | I would agree with that statement. |
B | So I tend to really want to explore this, treating robots really as entities. So anthropomorphization, which is the act of looking at an inanimate object and projecting onto it lifelike features. I think robotics generally sees that as a negative. I see it as a superpower. We need to use that. |
A | Well, I'm struck by how that really grabs onto the relationship between human and machine, or human and robot. Simple question is, and I think you've already told us the answer, but does interacting with a robot change you? Does it, in other words, do we develop relationships to robots? |
B | Yeah, I definitely think so. I think. I think the moment you see a robot or AI systems as more than just servants, but entities, they begin to change, just like good friends do, just like relationships, just like other humans. I think for that, you have to have certain aspects of that interaction, like the robot's abil... |
A | So when I think about human relationships, I don't always break them down into variables, but we could explore a few of those variables and see how they map to human robot relationships. One is just time. If you spend zero time with another person at all in cyberspace or on the phone or in person, you essentially have ... |
B | I look. I look forward to you being one of the first people and this robot. |
A | So do I. So there's. There's struggle. You grow. You know, when you struggle with somebody, you grow closer. Sometimes the struggles are imposed between those two people. So called trauma bonding, they call it in the whole psychology literature and pop psychology literature. But in any case, I can imagine. So time succ... |
B | It can also leave. |
A | It can also leave. So I've never conceptualized robot human interactions this way. So tell me more about how this might look. Are we thinking about a human appearing robot? I know you and I have both had intense relationships to our, we have separate dogs, obviously, but to animals, this sounds a lot like human animal ... |
B | So there's a lot to be said here, but you actually pinpointed one of the big, big first steps, which is this idea of time. And it's a huge limitation in machine learning community currently. Now we're back to the actual details. Lifelong learning is a problem space that focuses on how AI systems can learn over a long p... |
A | Those together with you because they can't move with you and be with you. |
B | No, no. Like, literally, we don't have the techniques to do the learning, the actual learning of containing those moments. Current machine learning systems are really focused on understanding the world in the following way. It's more like the perception system, like looking around, understand, like, what's in the scene... |
A | Could you post a photo of you and the robot? Selfie with robot? And then the robot sees that image and recognizes that was time spent, there were smiles or there were tears, and create some sort of metric of emotional depth in the relationship and update its behavior. So couldn't it text you in the middle of the night ... |
B | Well, yes, all of those things, but we can dig into that. But I think that time element, forget everything else. Just sharing moments together, that changes everything. I believe that changes everything. Now, there's specific things that are more in terms of systems that can explain you. It's more technical and probabl... |
A | Do Russians go to therapists? |
B | No, they don't. They don't. And if they do, the therapists don't live to tell the story. No, I do believe in talk therapy, which friendship is, to me, is talk therapy. Or, like, it's like you don't necessarily need to talk. It's like just connecting in the space of ideas, in the space of experiences. And I think there'... |
A | I love that because my graduate advisor, unfortunately, she passed away. But when she passed away, somebody said at her memorial all these amazing things she had done, et cetera. And then her kids got up there, and she had young children that I knew when she was pregnant with them. And so it was really, even now, I can... |
B | Yeah, I think so. I think there's no reason to see machines as somehow incapable of teaching us something that's deeply human. I don't think humans have a monopoly on that, I think we understand ourselves very poorly, and we need to have the kind of prompting from a machine. And definitely part of that is just remember... |
A | Maybe what they meant was it wasn't a big outing, it wasn't as there was no specific goal, but a goal was created through the lack of a goal, like where you just hang out and then you start playing thumb war and you end up playing thumb war for an hour. The structure emerges from lack of structure. |
B | No, but the thing is the moments, there's something about those times that creates special moments, and I think those could be optimized for. I think we think of like a big outing as, I don't know, going to Six Flags or something, or some big. The Grand Canyon, or going to some. I don't know that I think we would need ... |
A | Let's talk about this startup, and let's talk about the dream. You've mentioned this dream before in our previous conversations, always as little hints dropped here and there, just for anyone listening. There's never been an offline conversation about this dream. I'm not privy to anything except what Lex says now. And ... |
B | Sure. So the way people express long term vision, I've noticed, is quite different. Like, Elon is an example of somebody who can very crisply say exactly what the goal is also has to do with the fact that problems he's solving have nothing to do with humans. So my long term vision is a little bit more difficult to expr... |
A | The possibility of a clean breakup is actually what will keep people together. |
B | Yeah, I think so. I think exactly. I think a happy marriage requires the ability to divorce easily without the divorce industrial complex or whatever that's currently going on, that there's so much money to be made from lawyers and divorce. But, yeah, the ability to leave is what enables love. |
A | I think it's interesting. I've heard the phrase from a semi cynical friend that marriage is the leading cause of divorce. But now we've heard that divorce or the possibility of divorce could be the leading cause of marriage, of a happy marriage. Good point. |
B | Of a happy marriage. Yeah, but there's a lot of details there. But the big dream is that connection between AI system and a human. And I haven't had, you know, there's so much fear about artificial intelligence systems and about robots that I haven't quite found the right words to express that vision, because the visio... |
A | I love that positivity, and I agree that the stance everything is doomed is equally bad. To say that everything's going to turn out all right. There has to be a dedicated effort, and clearly you're thinking about what that dedicated effort would look like. You mentioned two aspects to this dream, and I want to make sur... |
B | These two parallel dreams 100% the same thing? It's. It's, uh, difficult to kind of explain without going through details, but maybe one easy way to explain the way I think about social networks is to create an AI system. That's yours. That's yours. It's not like Amazon Alexa that's centralized. You own the data. It's ... |
A | Would love feedback from whatever this creature, whatever. I can't. I don't know what to call it as to, you know, maybe at the end of the week it would automatically unfollow some of the people that I follow because it realized through some really smart data about how I was feeling inside or how I was sleeping or somet... |
B | Point, because of the interaction, because of sharing the moments and learning a lot about you, you're now able to understand what interactions led you to become a better version of yourself, like the person you yourself are happy with. This isn't, you know, if you're into flat Earth and you feel very good about it, th... |
A | I feel like in every good story, there's a guide or a companion that flies out or forages a little bit further, a little bit differently, and brings back information that helps us, or at least tries to steer us in the right direction. |
B | That's exactly what I'm thinking and what I've been working on. I should mention there's a bunch of difficulties here. You see me up and down a little bit recently. So there's technically a lot of challenges here, like with a lot of technologies. And the reason I'm talking about it on a podcast comfortably, as opposed ... |
A | You sort of don't, but you're kind of pulling on a. On a string, hoping that there's a bigger ball of yarn. |
B | Yeah, but you have this kind of intuition. I think I pride myself in knowing what I'm good at, because the reason I have that intuition is because I think I'm very good at knowing all the things I suck at, which is basically everything. So, like, whenever I notice, like, wait a minute, I'm kind of good at this, which i... |
A | Well, in your case, however, I agree. And actually, David had a post recently that I thought was among his many brilliant posts, was one of the more brilliant about how he talked about this myth of the light at the end of the tunnel. And instead, what he replaced that myth with was a concept that eventually your eyes a... |
B | I love them so much. |
A | Yeah. You guys share a lot in common. Knowing you both a bit. You share a lot in common. But in this loneliness and the. And the pursuit of this dream, it seems to me it has a certain component to it that is extremely valuable, which is that the loneliness itself could serve as a driver to build the companion for the j... |
B | Well, I'm very deeply aware of that. So, like, some people can make. Because I talk about love a lot. I really love everything in this world, but I also love humans, friendship and romantic, you know, like, even the cheesy stuff, just. |
A | You like romantic movies. |
B | Yeah, well, I got so much shit from Rogan about, like, was it the tango scene from scent of a woman? But, yes, I find, like, a woman, there's nothing better than a woman in a red dress. Like a. You know, just, like, classy. |
A | You should move to Argentina. You know, my father's argentine. And you know what he said when I. When I went on your podcast for the first time? He said he dresses well, because in Argentina, the men go to a wedding or a party or something, you know, in the US, by halfway through the night, ten minutes in the night, al... |
B | I know that. |
A | But let's talk about this pursuit just a bit more, because I think what you're talking about is building not just a solution for loneliness, but you've alluded to the loneliness as itself an important thing. And I think you're right. I think within people, there is caverns of thoughts and shame, but also just the desir... |
B | In terms of business and in terms of systems? |
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