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A | Welcome to Bankless, where we explore the frontier of cultural artifacts. With deep mainstream lore being tokenized on Ethereum, Ethereum enables the future of ownership, and the music industry has slowly been losing the concept of user owned music ever since the rise of digitization and the Internet. Today on Bankless... |
B | I'm here with Leighton Cusack here to my left, and Matt Markov on the screen over in California, Layton. Matt, welcome to the show. |
C | Thank you for having us. |
D | Thank you. Good to be here. |
B | Layton and Matt, you guys are two leading members of Pleaserdao, the organization that is tokenizing an album that was created before the word tokenizing was even a thing. There's a bunch of backstory, there's a bunch of lore that the bankless nation will have just listened to going into this episode. So we're kind of ... |
C | Yeah, well, the history of this album is that ten years ago, in 2014, it was released as a one of one album, one of the first, or certainly the most famous, if not the first one of one album ever created. So there's only one physical copy that exists. And the reason why this makes so much sense and why this is importan... |
B | Matt, what would you add to that? |
D | Yeah, I mean, I would just say that this album is unique and is a one of one. But more than that, it's an album that is easily viewed as a fine work of art. And the question here is, what has value? And I think what resists all from the beginning was this juxtaposition between, hey, I can go spend $50 million on this m... |
B | We in the crypto industry, I think many of us became familiar with crypto thanks to the NFT movement of 2021, which made a lot of promises and had a lot of awareness, brought a lot of awareness to crypto, made a lot of promises, especially in the world of art, online art, the digitization of art, like artists, one of o... |
D | Well, I mean, in my opinion, we're trying to carve a path. Pleaserdao is a digital physical collection. We're a museum. And so it's not a question of, we're not Hayden, we're not uniswap. We're not going to create the rails for this, but we can point the right direction with the art. And so, yeah, absolutely, I think t... |
C | Yeah, I think the thing I would add is, like, it's up to the people to decide at this point if this is a one off or if this is the new model, because right now, there's been a lot of people over the past ten years who have complained about not being able to hear this album, and the work has now been done where anyone i... |
B | I'd like to go into that a little bit more. So this album was created in 20. |
C | 1514 was when it was launched. |
B | 2014 was when it was launched. A one of one album, one of one before this idea of nfts, when one of ones on Ethereum were even a thing. And can we talk about some of the pressures that inspired the Wu Tang clan to do this in the first place? We have Spotify streams coming out. We have the itunes music story. Even befor... |
C | Yeah, I mean, I think that's, like, an important thing you bring up, because this whole narrative of trying to bring value back to music, specifically in art, is not something we invented. It's a vision that we're trying to steward that was very much the Wu Tang Clan's vision from day one with this piece. And so I thin... |
D | I mean, it's a nice circular thing, because the concept of digital ownership is certainly what started this problem. The tech world and people that are kind of very similar to our own ecosystem now discovered that if they got an early copy, they could upload this onto parts of the web that were only accessible by certa... |
B | One of the current stories about music is that the relationship between consumers of music, listeners of music, fans of artists, is mediated by Spotify. |
C | Right. |
B | Spotify knows who the artists are and they know who the fans are, but they don't allow for those connections to be made directly. And this is something that I think was also part of the motivation to make this album in the first place. And now this is something that I think pleaser is reintroducing here, because right ... |
C | Yeah. Yeah. Cause I think the thing you're picking up on, just to, like, put a finer point on it, is outside of sort of the economics of it. Another thing that RZA and Silver Rings wrote about when they released this, was just how sad it is that people don't collect music anymore. Right. You rent it from Spotify, and i... |
A | Right. |
C | You don't cherish it, you don't collect it. Those are their words, you know, if you go to their artist statement and read it. And so that is another component outside the economics. The other component is us saying, look, collect this thing, own it. And that's why we had Hassan Rahim, who's a very famous designer in th... |
B | Matt, anything for you. |
D | I don't have much more to add to that. I think that's exactly right. Laden. |
B | Well, let's talk about the actual mechanics of owning this thing. So let's just drill down right into the actual details. What's going on? What's happening? What are we doing here? |
C | Yeah, well, I mean. Okay, so let's start with, everything about this album is interesting. So let's start there. So right now, what is on offer to people is they are able to pay $1. Wanted to start with the lowest price point possible to really bring this question to the forefront of are you willing to do anything for ... |
B | So there is an encrypted. So I think one thing we might have missed is that no one, very few people have listened to this album because it's not being reproduced. And so this album is scarce in the fact that there's one of one, but it's also scarce in that you can't go find it on Spotify, you can't go find it on the In... |
C | Yes, that's correct. So the album was fully encrypted? Every song. And so that's sort of like part of the story here, right, is that you can actually become an owner of this music, right? You actually can access these encrypted files. You can't obviously listen to it, but you can't become an owner of it. So what you're... |
B | So you can try before you buy. Well, try after you buy. After you buy, after you buy. |
C | You can listen. You can listen. Once you show that you value music and you care about this, you can get some access. Now, the final thing that happens, and this is where there's interesting mechanic, is the Wu Tang clan originally decided that this album could not be released until 2103. |
B | Okay. |
C | Okay. So we used. |
B | What does it mean to be released? |
C | That was when they were dictated that it could not be used in a way that's public outside of private listing parties. So they said the owners can have private listing parties, but you cannot publicly share this with the world till 2100. |
B | No broadcasting? |
C | No broadcasting, no. Just no streaming, no public events, no public performance. No public performances. Yeah, all that stuff. So, again, to honor this vision, we use that as the decryption date for the music 2103. But for each purchase of $1, it takes 88 seconds off of that clock. So it brings that closer. Now, of cou... |
B | And saying, yes, the time, now, the window. |
C | So I'm not trying to say no one's showing up, but I am saying this is the question that the art. |
D | Is asking, and how are they going to show up? Right. I think the question RZA didn't. I don't think they just made this from an economic perspective. I think they also wanted it to be treasure. And so by putting it into mona, we're having conversations now with other museums to take this on tour and to allow the listen... |
B | Okay, so the. The rules according to the contract or contract. Yeah. Of the album, is that there can't be any public dissemination of the album until 21 30 or some very far in this future. Correct? |
C | 2103, yeah. |
B | Why does pleaser doubt get the right to move forward that release date by 88 seconds every purchase? How is that allowed? |
C | Yeah, I think without going into this, into the details, I think it is true to say that we have been working with the original artists to be able to create a mechanism that people can at least have the option of unlocking this music earlier if they have desire, if they have provenance, if they so care to value the musi... |
B | Right. |
C | Because we just as a society, decided we don't really just put that in the same category. And so we. |
D | Or because the reproductive mechanism was such that it could be stolen and not tracked. |
C | That's right. |
D | Which is kind of interesting. |
C | Yeah. |
D | Because now you can actually put it out and track it digitally. |
C | Yeah, yeah. |
B | So unlike other art mediums, music is so unique in the sense that it's extremely digital. Like there you can scan a piece of artwork, but that never really is true to its original form of the artwork, but that is true for music. |
C | Well, and that. So that gets into an interesting. So in the digital world, pre ownership. Right. And this is maybe super nerdy, but with the crypto audience in mind, let's maybe go in here. In a digital world where there's no conception of a public ledger that defines provenance, there is no difference between all thes... |
B | Can we now rethink this idea of digital content? |
C | Can we now rethink this idea? And I don't know if we can, to be honest. But that's what goes back to the. |
B | People who are buying these one of one albums is like, it's really gonna be up to the consumers of this product, and this product is the art. |
C | Yeah, the product is there, maybe. |
D | Right? I mean, sometimes the first thing isn't the thing. |
C | Right. |
D | That's why this is more a pointing in the direction. But there's a reason why the California DMV is putting things on chain. Right? There's a reason why companies are actually using this as a back end, because it's clear, it's open, it's obvious it's not centralized. And so, you know, whether or not this is the exact m... |
B | And to my understanding, you guys have been, the members of the Wu Ting clan are fully aware of this process and are watching this happen. What's it been like to work with them and kind of pitch the idea of web three to them? |
C | Well, yeah, I want to start with the first part of that question. So not just the members of the Wu Tang clan are watching this. The entire music industry is watching this. Look, this is the Wu Tang clan. This is, like, one of the most famous music groups of all time. The number of people who are watching this and seei... |
B | So let's take the perspective of a crypto person who's very familiar with everything crypto. Maybe they're not familiar with the Wu Tang clan or how big of a deal of a music group they are. Maybe they just don't like rap. Maybe they're not really as familiar with the music industry. Most of this conversation is foreign... |
C | I think it's the best chance you have, at least this year, calendar year, I'll say. I don't know how long. I want to extend that timeline to show people outside of crypto that digital ownership means something and that we can use that as a tool to bring value back to artists. Like, I can't think of a better opportunity... |
D | I mean, I'd have to come at this from the other direction, because the reality is I'm in crypto since 2020, 2021. I'm onboarded by Jamus, by pleaser, for this purpose, and then kind of started to spread my wings and really come to love the industry. My prior jobs have all involved building structure around talent. And ... |
B | I have a memory I'd like to share before we wrap up and give some call to actions. 2021 NFT NYC was one of the first times that I met a lot of the members of Pleaserdao and also just a lot of people in crypto at all, because we were coming out of COVID and there was a Wu Tang. The Pleaserdao had just bought the album. ... |
C | Yeah. No, I think it's the most exclusive piece of music ever to exist. Only owned by one person, can now be owned by anyone for a dollar in an encrypted format. Right. And so there is this really interesting play here where we have democratized ownership of this asset. Now, listening is still happens in these differen... |
D | And David, I think you really zero in on it for a big part of this. I mean, I grew up on. Whoa. I grew up listening to them. 36 chambers, sure, but Ray and only built for cuban links. Ghost and iron man. Some of my favorite music of all time. And the reason why you say what you say is the same reason why I can apprecia... |
C | It is. It is great music. I've had the chance to listen to some of it and I. It's amazing. It's beautiful. |
B | Yeah. I definitely am very partial to the song with the. The trumpets, the brass. I think that's track four. Don't know the name of it. I don't know. Are there. Are there names to these songs? |
D | There are names. Yeah, there are names. And that track is one of my favorites as well. |
B | All right, guys, if people are peaked, either because they absolutely love the Wu Tang Clan and they want to own a part of this, or because they think that this is a great example to help promote the values of crypto to outside industries and outside players who, like Layton said, are definitely watching. What should t... |
C | Yeah, so you can go to the album.com. dot the album.com. the album.com. i know what a great URL. I think it's the best appropriate branding here. A lot of work went into creating not. Yes, you can mint this digital artifact, but there's a lot more to that website. You can interact with a 3d version of the box. You can ... |
B | Yeah, I do think answering that question would be interesting, but asking that question in bigger and bigger form factors, I think, also kind of serves that same purpose. And I think that's really what Ethereum and online digital property rights also brings to the table, is what does it really mean to own something? An... |
C | Yeah. |
B | So the sale has been live for, I think, a week now. So we are already getting some data about how well this is going. How well is it going? |
C | Yeah, well, I'll let Matcalf add some color from the music side. But I think one thing that's really interesting so far is that of the mints, we've already had, I think, 45, 50,000 mints. Between 45 and 50,000 mints are happening with people using credit card. |
B | Okay, 45,000 mints just with a credit card, not with the crypto side of. |
C | It, just with credit card. And so what we're seeing is the levels of engagement with people using credit card, not using crypto, are off the charts, like, thousands of unique people buying it. 45,000 or so unique mints. I think maybe 50,000 unique mints. And so I think that's an example. Now, on the flip side, the enga... |
D | Yeah, I mean, I think the constitution dial is actually an interesting example because I'm pretty sure that trickled in before there was a couple much larger injections before it took out. Took off. I think that in 2024, though, right now I want to say Ariana was at 240 for. Yes. And as a single, red drum was a 155. I ... |
C | Like 250,000 I think is a total mint. So far, we're about six days in, and I think it's come from around 15,000 unique minters. And again, a very large portion of that being people who do not use crypto, who are using a credit card and who presumably don't have a wallet. |
B | Right. And who heard about this probably from non crypto channels as well. |
C | Yes. Who heard about it from hip hop and larger, you know, New York Times type publications. Yeah. |
B | So just to do the math, 250,000 minutes times 88 seconds. |
C | Yep. |
B | 250,000 times 88 seconds. |
D | We're getting close to a year. |
B | Getting close to one year. So we have pulled forward the release date by one year. And this has been out for a week or so. |
C | Yeah. |
B | And we have 100 years to go. |
C | No, not quite 100. I think it's like 70, 77 years. It's like the total is the total, but it's not gonna be a completely binary. Right. So it's not like it has to get to zero for music to release will be released. People, people can expect that as people become owners and value music, the music comes out. And of course,... |
B | Just so we might be dead. |
C | It just might be. It just might be later. But, yeah, I mean, to be honest, like, you know, the amount of time we, the whole, the eyes and the ears of a very important section of the music industry are on crypto right now. Right. And most people in crypto, I think, are totally unaware of that. But that is the reality. A... |
B | Layton, Matt, thank you guys so much for coming on the show and helping me explain this to the bankless nation today. |
C | Thank you. |
D | Thank you for having us. |
A | Bangladesh nation. |
B | You guys know the deal. Crypto is risky. Defi is risky. Is owning music risky? I don't know. I'll let that be a question for the listener. But we are on the journey west. It's not for everyone. But we are glad you are with us on the bankless journey. Thanks a lot. |
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