podcasts
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Collection for podcasts • 511 items • Updated • 2
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A | Hey, bankless nation. So Michael and Ben from the Animal Spirits podcast had David and I on their podcast recently, and if you're not familiar with animal spirits, it's been described to us as, like, bankless, but for stocks, I think that's probably accurate. So they took the host role in this conversation, interviewed... |
B | We were just giving them a download on what's going on in the crypto world. The ECF, the bitcoin, ETF AI, meme coins, kind of giving what is the bankless of stocks? A download on what is the bankless of crypto, uh, which is us. Uh, so if you just are kind of wondering what it's like to, um, peer over the fence or from ... |
C | We're very excited to be joined by the bankless guys. This is David Hoffman and Ryan Shaw Adams. Guess I started listening to you guys, I don't know, 2019, maybe 2020. |
A | Oh, wow. |
B | Something would have been 2020. We started the podcast in 2020. |
C | Okay. |
A | I hope you guys loaded up on some crypto at that time. We were, you know, we were down bad. It was a good time to buy. I don't know if I know. |
C | We dabbled. We'll get into that. |
A | All right. |
C | All right. So I don't think that. So for our audience and for my benefit, I've listened to you guys for a while, but I don't think I know your origin story. How do you guys meet? How do you get into crypto? Why did you start a podcast? Just give us the. Whoever wants to take us, just give us the background. |
A | Do you want to do it, David? |
B | Yeah, sure. Well, so we met on Twitter because we were just saying similar things about crypto. Crypto has always been in flux, in debate, people debating about what crypto is, what's its future. And in 2018, when Ryan and I discovered each other on Twitter, and I think meeting each other counted as just him following ... |
A | I was actually a listener to David's podcast, so he had this podcast at the time where he would argue with a bitcoin maximalist. |
B | Yeah, different podcasts. Different podcasts from banquets. |
A | And I found it so entertaining. I was like, I like this guy. I don't know about this other host, but I like this David Hoffman guy. And so one day I saw an article you wrote, david, and I don't know, I think I slid into your DM's. I don't know if it was the other way around, but I think that's how it happened. |
B | I think I slid into your deal. |
A | Really? |
D | I don't know. |
B | Yeah, we've done this before. |
D | I'm pretty sure Michael and I met on Twitter as well. |
A | You guys read on Twitter, too? This is so funny. And by the way, we're in the recording studio here. You guys are using Riverside and had some of your production folks on. This feels so similar to how we do things at bankless. And it's like our audience has told us that animal spirits is the bankless for stocks, basica... |
C | Totally okay. No, I embrace that. So just. But I'm curious about how you guys even taking a step back from that. How did you get into crypto? Are you guys computer nerds or money guys or. What's your story? |
B | Well, Ryan, you got into crypto before I did, so. |
A | Yeah, I probably a computer nerd. Not really a finance guy. I learned everything I know about money and finance through crypto, which is kind of like a interesting way to learn it. I should step back. I did a business degree. Okay. And then went on, like, to an entrepreneurial event. So I knew the basics right? I knew ... |
B | Yeah, I discovered ethereum through mining. I discovered that my gaming computer, I could just get $5 a day from mining Ethereum, and I had no idea what that meant, but I was trying to save up some money to go to physical therapy school, of all places. And that kind of interest in just some passive income grabbed my at... |
D | Actually pretty useful for crypto, though. |
B | Yeah, exactly. And so all of my business major friends, my finance major friends, like, they couldn't wrap their heads around crypto. And I had, like, as little financial education as possible. Like, my relationship with the IR's was that they paid me money. Like, I, like, I didn't get it. Like savings, like marketing,... |
C | Total nerds. |
B | And a lot of early people who came into crypto, like, there's the meme of, like, in it for the tech or in it for the money or one of the things. A lot of people are just in it because it's so interesting. There's so many, like, facets to peel back and to understand. It is the great educational system of, like, the why ... |
C | Where do you guys think crypto is today versus where you maybe hoped it would be idealistically, when. When you first got involved. And, David, I'll just. I'll tee you up with. With your pinned tweet. You said, this is in 2022. Crypto wasn't created to make you rich. It was created to set you free. So riff on that. |
A | Sure. |
B | Yeah. A lot of people like to do, like, the whole, like, crypto is in, like, the nineties of the Internet, which is, like, a fun comparison. I kind of prefer comparing crypto to, like, a biological organism and seeing it on its growth arc. And I think right now, crypto is in, like, early stages of puberty. Like, bitcoi... |
D | One of the things that surprised me about the onset of the bitcoin ETF was just how much excitement it caused from both tradfi people, like you said, and crypto people. And it seemed like crypto, the crypto community, I'm painting a broad brush here, was pretty receptive to letting Wall street and other people in to th... |
B | Go for a ryan? |
A | I think. Let's see. It's actually the more. The most surprising thing was the adoption of bitcoin. And that, like, the size, the growth that it's seen has, like, I think, floored people in crypto. But also on the. On the tradfi side of things, I'm not surprised that the, the social community around crypto, like, was ex... |
C | So the podcast is called bankless. Again, David, you said that crypto was created to set you free. Let's zoom in on that. What exactly is wrong with the current institutions and the way money works? What are you trying to set us free from? |
B | Yeah, crypto is all about individual sovereignty and individual power. Cryptography, in its essence, is a technology that strictly benefits individuals over institutions. So you have the large centralized institution of a government, and then you have the many, many, many individuals. Cryptography strictly benefits ind... |
C | Yeah, there's a lot of political underpinnings behind the philosophies behind what you guys are talking about. And while I don't necessarily, I guess, love the idea that my data is all over the Internet, I also don't care enough to do anything about it. I understand that. All right, well, I guess my data is being sold,... |
A | Yeah, I think that's totally valid. I think that, I mean, the banking system, the financial system in the US is pretty broken. Even if you just look at payments, compare like a payment system in the US to even what China has going on in like Alipay and WeChat and this type of thing where they've moved to a digital curr... |
D | I've heard Ben Thompson talk about the payment system before, and he says it's kind of like a timing and luck situation where we built our whole financial system in like the sixties and seventies as credit cards were coming up. And so it's like that just because that's how things were done. China built their financial ... |
A | I think it's starting to happen right now. So you've got, like, stripe. They are going, basically, they're going all in on stable coins. Not 100% all in, but they're massively expanding stablecoin support, you know, starting the summer. Paypal now has its own stablecoin project as well. So I think they're, they're reco... |
B | There's definitely a meme that the crypto industry, crypto people want to tear down the financial system. And that's like a very small, extreme part of crypto far more likely. And the thing that we're actually seeing is both systems are developing in parallel. Crypto is developing much, much faster. And really, this is... |
C | One of the big problems that crypto has right now is a messaging pr nightmare. |
B | Yeah, I always have. |
C | For, for people that are not financially savvy, that don't know anything about the traditional financial system or crypto, they know Sam Bankman freed, and they see the scams. And what do you guys, as industry leaders, what can you do about that? I know it's like a, you know, gigantic challenge, but what, what will you... |
A | I do think this is one thing that's, you were asking earlier, Michael, about, like, what surprised you? It has surprised me a little bit. The, like, repeated fractal boom bust cycle of crypto in that every single cycle, and this one will be no exception. I just want to set expectations here for animal spirits listeners... |
B | We got nothing to hide. Yeah, you can watch. |
D | Well, the double edged sword of it is the casino is a thing that gets new entrants to enter. |
A | Yeah, it does, but it's like, it does, but toward the end of the cycle, you know, there's. There's a difference, I think, between, like, you know, scammers abusing and getting entrance this way. Like, they're. The point was made when all of the people bought monkey jpegs at the top last cycle, right? And they watched t... |
D | Yeah. |
A | I do think, though, on the flip side of this, this is why there's, like, a great buying opportunity. I've always seen this in crypto. It's like if somebody is just floating on the surface and all they hear is the media headlines of Sam Bankman, fried and, like, jenner Coin and, like, the 9th crypto founder who's like 3... |
C | Well, more, more people are going to hear about crypto whether they like it or not, because it's now coming to Washington in a big way. |
A | That's true. |
C | Had a representative on your podcast last week. So what is the state of affairs with crypto and Washington, DC? |
B | Yeah, like, last week, when the Ethereum ETF went from, like, almost definitely getting denied to surprise 180 from the SEC and getting approved. It was probably the biggest week in crypto history in terms of just like, a political win, if not just the biggest week. We went from just, like, kind of being behind the sce... |
A | Yeah, I think that explains a lot of it. Just like the fact that David, you're saying 20 million votings. Like, 20. 20% of voters in swing states think that crypto is an important issue. 50 million Americans own crypto right? Now, Mike Novogratz has said this is almost the amount of people who own dogs, right? |
B | More people own crypto than own dogs. |
A | If you come out and you say, we're the party against dogs, right, that's just not very popular. Like, I mean, I have a dog. I love my dog, right? I love my crypto bags. You're against my bags. You're making me, like, poor. I don't want you, like, I want the person who's, like, for my bags, right? I also think an unspok... |
D | What would those demands be? Is it just like, don't over regulate us? Is that God, get it? |
A | Essentially, like Gary Gensler? The SEC is right now in a lawsuit against five companies that are legitimate. |
B | Like, companies, our most legitimate companies, Uniswap. |
A | Metamask, the wallet, Coinbase, Kraken. These are exchanges and products that did not fail, have not failed, have been in existence forever, haven't lost even Robin Hood. You guys know Robin Hood, that there's a lawsuit against Robin Hood for listing assets. |
B | So, yeah, there are plenty of scams to go after, and they would be easy to go after coins. They could do anything else, but they're going after the people that have actually worked hard to promote this industry. And for some reason, they seem to want to give out wells notices like candy. Despite having lost, I don't th... |
C | In Washington is uniting the crypto community, which is very bifurcated. And it's like, a lot of other things. It's very tribal. I know you guys are. I don't know if you consider yourself eth Maxis, you can comment. What's that? |
A | It did David, do you, this is. |
B | A frequent topic of conversation between me. |
D | And it's funny because you don't have, you don't have, like, stock Maxis. Like, Michael's not an Nvidia maxi or something, or like a Nasdaq 100 maxi. That only happens in crypto. |
B | Yeah, well, okay, the quick explanation behind that is, like, generally there are, like, values that each layer one ecosystem has built into it. So, like, bitcoin has certain values, very strong austrian economic values. Ethereum has different sets of values. So these are like, if you really get down to the basement of... |
D | Like, what's the dogecoin values? What's the maxi. |
B | That one would take me a moment. So something about community, the celebration of community culture banding together under a joke. |
A | What do you guys see? |
D | We like memes. Right? Something like memes. |
A | What do you guys see when you. So you're saying you don't see this in the equity space, in the stock space. Right. But although I will say, there are some tribes that I've seen, like the. |
C | Oh, yeah, yeah. |
D | Yeah. |
A | The vanguard tribes. Buffett tribe. |
C | Vanguard, for sure. Yeah. |
A | But even, even you get, like, the Tesla moon boys are pretty, like, like, I would say ardent. I don't know if that characterize that as a subclass. |
C | But I guess the difference, though, is that bogleheads, for example, I don't think they're spending a lot of time thinking about what other people are doing. Like. Right. I don't think they're, like, arguing necessarily with, like, Kathy Woody. |
D | Yeah. |
A | They're nothing. They're not. |
C | We do what we do, and you. I don't care what you do. |
A | They're more. |
C | Whereas within. Right. Within crypto, there are battles. And I know you guys like to roll around in the mud sometimes, and it makes sense because this is a very nascent industry. You're looking to plant your flag and fight for what you believe in. But there's. There's a lot of friction within each individual vertical. ... |
A | There is. And it's ugly as tribal at times. One thing, I'll tell you this, and this is another thing you don't see until you kind of look below the surface is all of the argument is like bag argument. There's some values argument, as David said, but it's all about. I'm concerned that it's all about assets. It's like, a... |
B | The surface, I'd actually, like, contest that. |
A | Well, let me just finish, though. So under the surface, though, there's a massive wave of cooperation that's happening in that all of the tools and technologies that are built are, like, open source, so they're shared. Right. And so if bitcoin is launching a layer two, for instance, I'm using crypto terms here, but the... |
C | Yeah. David, you think this is altruistic behavior? |
B | No, not, not necessarily that. The, the people think that it's the art. The tribal ness in crypto is because of bag bias. And that's not wrong, but I think it's the wrong framing. Like, people, like, they come into, like, the charcuterie board that is like the layer one landscape in blockchains, like bitcoin, ethereum,... |
D | People are talking their books. |
C | It's both. And I think it's both, like, if trad five people behaved the same way that crypto people behaved. Imagine that. I was like, screaming every day, you guys, you could own apple. You could own the best company in the world. You should. |
A | Why don't you? |
B | Well, okay, but crypto has, like, way more growth potential. At least it's perceived by crypto people to have way more growth potential. And so, like, the next ten years of crypto means so much more than the next ten years of Apple, because Apple's already, like, so much. |
A | But also, David, I would say, is like, you know, when you sign up for crypto and you pick your tribe, you're picking a subculture, but you're also picking a religion. |
B | Yeah. |
A | Like, you definitely are me. They closest in tradfi is just, you remember those old, like, I'm a Mac, I'm a PC type ads and that religious warfare they kind of tapped into. So there were, like, Mac subculture people and there's, like, windows subculture people, like, all the nerds do, you know, like, there's an element... |
C | Well, big time. And this is one of the reasons that I first bought bitcoin, and I think June 2020 was because. Not because I believed, but because I believe that enough people believed. |
A | Yeah. |
C | And it is a simple supply and demand story, and I could give two shits. In fact, I don't like, like, the austrian economic philosophy of buy bitcoin, your dollar is going to zero. Like, to me, that feels like a shitty message, and I don't like that. And I don't like it so much that if bitcoin went to 100,000 and I didn... |
B | Yeah. And it's. It's the sales sphere around bitcoin. Bitcoin has no marketing department. Bitcoin has no, like, promotion or found a foundation or anything. |
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