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Speaker A: Bankless nation. We got a live stream for you here today. We're going to get some questions answered about, I think, something that people have the most questions about, which is restaking Eigen layer, AV's networks, timelines, where's the yield coming from, what are we going to do? There's a lot of differen... |
Speaker B: Hey. Hi, David. Really excited to be here. Looking forward to do this together. |
Speaker A: And also next to him, we got Nima Viziri, ecosystem research and development over at Eigen Lair. Nima, welcome to the show. |
Speaker C: Thanks so much for having me. |
Speaker A: Nima, you're a new face for us. Maybe give us a little bit of your introduction, who you are and what you do at Eigen Lair. |
Speaker C: Yeah, sure. So I joined the Eigenlabs team a few months ago to lead the ecosystem development and AV's teams that have been interfacing with the protocol. Right before this, I was actually a research partner at Polychain, which is how I got to know about the protocol in its early stages. And I just saw the e... |
Speaker A: Beautiful. And I'm enjoying having you here because I think I want a lot of questions answered about the AV's ecosystem specifically. So I'll be directing some of those questions to you. Some of the higher level, more general stuff I'm going to throw to Sriram, and I think that's actually where we're going t... |
Speaker B: Different people care about Eigen lair for different things. If you are a builder, you know it opens up an opportunity for you to go build new things without having to secure a trust network on your own. You can build arbitrary new protocols on Eigen layer. That's why you should care about it. If you're a st... |
Speaker A: Beautiful. A couple of these questions, or maybe some of them will actually be in the same spirit. And so I'll ask them both at once. And these next ones, Nima, are going to you, dai, Suzuki, Reblock, EtH and also Niski. First question, what are some unique use cases using eigen layer? And then the second qu... |
Speaker C: Yeah, sure. So I mean, right off the bat, a few things that are uniquely enabled by the protocol, let's just say bridging the economic security that we're dealing with here can just enable much more secure protocols to enable cross chain activities. The other thing that I'm personally really excited about is... |
Speaker B: One thing I would add to that is a little bit of a high level response when people think the modular paradigm. The modular paradigm is chains where integrated solutions for all the different things that need to be done on applications inside the chain. But the model paradigm is, oh, maybe there are different... |
Speaker A: Yeah. One of the things that I think really gets people's imaginations going about Eigen layer is there. It's pretty boundless. The design space is pretty boundless. But that also makes, that leads into my next question here from Ethan Lippmann. If we have such a boundless design space, and I'm assuming that... |
Speaker C: I'll let Sriram take the first step at this, but I'll chime in with anything he hasn't covered. Cool. |
Speaker B: Yeah. So the idea is that there is an AV's consumer. Imagine an AV's like something concrete as an oracle. This is an oracle. An AV's consumer is an dap that is calling the Oracle. So that's where it is starting. But the DaP itself has a user. I'm calling a swap or a lending protocol, which needs to call an ... |
Speaker A: Nima, anything you want to add there? |
Speaker C: I'm just fascinated by the fact that this permissionless market is going to enable all the various flavors of services. I just view it as we've seen distributed systems, these backend infra providers, be able to do what they do over the past 2030 years, except now you have this crypto economic angle attached... |
Speaker A: Yeah, I think maybe part of the spirit of the question is that one of the reasons why everyone is getting excited about restaking is because we love ether and we love staking ether, and we love the yields, and we get more of it this way. But then there's also a tension, I think maybe, at least I suspect, in ... |
Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, this is the power of, uh, permissionless markets is we can't say whether this is going to be the market. Eth stakers demand that they get only paid in Eth. We will see that. That's what happens if we see that. Yeah, actually, ETH stakers want all kinds of liquid tokens. Then that's what will ha... |
Speaker A: Right. Maybe that question specifically is like how to couple the income being generated from avss and then transfer it over to the restakers, the ETH restakers. Maybe that question is actually more appropriate to ask the LRT level of the, of the stack because they are the people actually more or less in cha... |
Speaker B: Yeah. We are also seeing interesting kind of payment management type services emerging. Somebody may say, hey, subscribe to my you stake. You don't even have to go through an LLRT and subscribe to my payment management service. I'll collect all these tokens, I'll do an RFQ auction, and then later I'll give y... |
Speaker A: It's funny that you say that, because there's the variety of opinions that liquid restaking tokens could have, which is good because there's so goddamn many of them. There's like 15 of them out there. So maybe we will see all those opinions expressed. Nima, these next set of questions I want to ask to you, a... |
Speaker C: Yeah, I'll start with the first one. So the background image that Sriram painted is these services talking to each other, right. These abs's. So in the same capacity, you can imagine how an AV's talking to another AV's has the capability to read some state. Right? Now there's on chain contracts, there's auct... |
Speaker B: I'll just add one thing to all of these things, is all of these events are reported back to Ethereum. Eigen layer is an ethereum centric system. So any AV's which is actually, there may be avias which don't interact on a kind of like a routine basis with Ethereum, but all of the AV state is reported back to ... |
Speaker A: Moving on to a question from cloudy eth shout out. Christy. That's our community manager at bankless. What happens if an Eigen layer, AV's operator with delegated lsts gets slashed? What happens with the lsts? Where do they go? |
Speaker C: Sriram, you want to take this? |
Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. You know, so there are two types of slashing that can happen on Eigen layer. So Nima was mentioning that we have, you know, upcoming designs on the full slashing mechanism. But there are two kinds of slashing. One is burning, right? You just burn, burn the stake. The other one is redistribution, ... |
Speaker A: Seamus on Farcaster orange Seamus ETH asks, how will delegators, operators and AVss adequately be able to calculate risk? The problems here will be incredibly dynamic and involve unclear dependencies. I'm not sure it's solvable, let alone by all parties routinely. So I think it's a little bit of just the unk... |
Speaker C: Yeah, this is a super interesting question. A lot of us have spent some, quite some time thinking about, and I guess to approach this, we can take a look at it from the perspective of each of these different stakeholders. For example, as an AV's developer, what does risk means to you? Is it the operators tha... |
Speaker A: Moving on to a question from a token terminal. How do they, this might, there might be no answer here. This might be a market forces thing, but we'll see. How do they see days, you guys, Eigen lair see the take rate in the ecosystem. For example, $1 paid by an AV's. How many cents goes to restakers, how many... |
Speaker C: This is still being thought out, and we're taking a lot of community feedback from what AV's developers like to see what operators are comfortable with, what ranges they think is reasonable across what type of assets. Because it's such a nascent space, it's still something that we're actively figuring out. T... |
Speaker B: Yeah, I think, you know, that there are dimensions of pricing and that we are thinking through the dimensions also carefully. For example, pricing need not be only for stake. Pricing should also be for the complexity of computation. So we are thinking through, like all the other systems that exist and see ho... |
Speaker C: Yeah. And to add on top of that, the reason why I said we're still so early in how this might look is because it's a problem that I think the broader industry is thinking about. Right. When you look at Solana and fee markets, or the concept of the discussion on multi market and multidimensional fees, like th... |
Speaker A: Yeah, right. I remember. That's still, I think, an ongoing conversation. Even when we talk about resource pricing inside of the EVM as well. |
Speaker C: Right. |
Speaker A: Thadyth asks, how long does it take to unstake? And then I'll add myself, why is there an unstaking waiting period at all? Sriram, you wanna take this one? |
Speaker B: Yeah. It takes seven days to unstake today. And why is there a seven day period? Is because when you stake and you provide security to services, what we don't want is you stake, you provide security to your service, attack the service, unstake, and then go swap and get out. Unstaking should have a lag greate... |
Speaker A: Elco Eth writes great songs. Sometimes we put them into the roll up. He asks, how big do we think the premium will be that Avss put on solo stakers? Is there a good enough way to determine who is a solo staker? He's asking because there is. This is the one way that I can see that Eigen layer will actually in... |
Speaker B: Yeah. What premium AVss will put, like I said, we are like a little bit of an open market type project, so we don't know what will happen. But there are clearly, absolutely clearly there are places where I, you know, AVss just want more decentralization than just one more stake, right? You know, I want to se... |
Speaker C: Something that I think is particularly interesting on this front is when you have solid seekers, irrespective of the kind of hardware that they have. One thing that we're noticing is a lot of networks rely on this component of a keeper or a relayer where the computational bandwidth of what you're actually re... |
Speaker A: I think maybe part of your guys answer is that it's actually not necessarily being the binary of, oh, you are a solo staker, you are one person. But it's more about how much net decentralization do you add to the system when we measure decentralization in a variety of different ways, because there is no good... |
Speaker B: Yeah, I think there is. We put out a detailed risk document, so I think that's maybe a good place to point it. We can put it up on the YouTube link afterwards. I think that'll be awesome. But the high level thing is, number one thinking of, I think the term restaking is what throws people off. If you know th... |
Speaker A: Do you want to add anything to the daisy chain of rest conversation? |
Speaker C: Those, the two points were pretty much what, yeah, what I was going to say. So beautiful. |
Speaker B: Just one more thing on that is smart contract risks, which we didn't talk about. Right. Like I talked about earlier when talking about the withdrawal lag, that the Eigen layer core, you know, each state is one way it is protected is because of the withdrawal lag, because, you know, there is a time to pause a... |
Speaker C: So that, that's what it actually, one thing I would say in this discussion is there is probably a misconception around how operators view their position in the ecosystem. There will be a sweet spot in terms of how many abs's they want to opt into, in contrast to how much risk they're willing to take on. Beca... |
Speaker A: So, yeah, on that note, that actually perfectly leads into a question that I have. So this one comes from me. I want to talk about possible design architectures for avss that have slashing as, like, more permissible slashing. Whereas, like, I think we talk about many AV's networks, and the general context th... |
Speaker B: Yeah. This is a really, really interesting question, and I should say this is out of scope for our current eigen layer design. And the reason is, you know, systems like Auger have a tyranny of majority. You know, you slash the minority based on a majority opinion. What if the majority was actually adversaria... |
Speaker A: Yeah. |
Speaker B: And, you know, this is where. This is the boundary that Vitalik has drawn for us, that, hey, don't do stuff, assuming, you know, ethereum will work for you. And I think it's a really good sign principle of, like, you know, drawing a boundary. So it's one thing to consider avSs, where you could get slashed, y... |
Speaker A: Okay, so that sounds like a very firm line that you are drawing, that you are saying, eigen layer will not cross that line. It will not cross the line of allowing for effective, honest operators to get to be slashed. |
Speaker B: Absolutely. I think that is what makes it all the rest of the properties of the system to actually work. |
Speaker A: Okay. Okay. And I think you also kind of implied that that same line is the line that Vitalik was labeling in his blog post, don't overload ethereum consensus. |
Speaker B: That's correct. In fact, the example he gave was a USD to Brazil oracle. And something crazy happens in Brazil. And then you have Brazil north and Brazil south. And now, you know, a majority is voting with Brazil north and a minority is voting with Brazil south. But actually they were all honest. And then su... |
Speaker A: Intended for, yes. And also Eigen layer is also intended for permissionless innovation. And at some point, won't these two things collide? Like if. Can I go build my subjective auger layer? |
Speaker B: Yeah, great question. So the way we mediate this is by the veto committee. So if I'm a staker, right, look at what I'm trusting. I'm trusting that either the AV's is correct or the AV's contracts are correct, or the veto committee is good. This is what I'm trusting when I'm opting into the system. That's the... |
Speaker A: Beautiful. That, that actually has given me a ton of clarity about. About this whole system. Uh, getting back onto the, the questions here, as we wrap up, getting closer, towards the end, I'm going to put these two questions together. Arun asks, will they eventually switch to their native token staking to se... |
Speaker B: Theoretical Eigen layer. Token doesn't exist. So we'll review this position if and when it exists. |
Speaker A: All right, so we're punting on this question. That brings me to my next, but. |
Speaker B: Just one important thing. The reason we have each staking as the kind of central thing in Eigen layer is this is important to understand for you know, I see a lot of people, for example, asking, hey, when you have a lot of different dlayers and fees, go to all these dlayers, what is the role of ETh? And I ju... |
Speaker A: Would you say ETH is like the bootloader for the eigen layer system as an asset, and then other tokens, like ARB for arbitrum, op for optimism, can then kind of enter the game when that is, when the system is ready for it. |
Speaker B: I think that's possible because many of these different systems may want, for example, the way they might start off is, they say, dual staking with ARB and eat. But unless the belief is that any of these other tokens acquire the money nas that ETH has been able to acquire, risks will be primarily denominated... |
Speaker A: Preston, so long as ETH is the money of the metaverse, this is probably where it's going to go moving forward. If the metaverse demands something else, Eigen layer will serve that demand. Cool. Last couple, last questions. Two more questions. Gabriel Haynes. We all love Gabe. He asks, of course, when theoret... |
Speaker B: That'S the answer. |
Speaker A: Okay, all right, David. Me asks when Mainnet. |
Speaker B: Oh, yeah, I. Early Q two. |
Speaker A: Early Q two. Early Q two. All right. Is there any other questions that. That's the end of my questions. Are there any questions that you guys wish that I had asked? What questions should I have? I have asked. |
Speaker B: The questions around. Risks were really good. So, you know, another time, maybe there's a, there's an opportunity to dig into, just like, you know, in a detailed discussion on some of that, because I see a lot of people don't understand the models clearly enough to know what is actually happening. But I thin... |
Speaker A: All right, guys, well, if that's all the questions, which it is, I really appreciate. Nima. It's good to reconnect. And now probably, am I going to see you at East Denver? |
Speaker C: Absolutely. And a lot of the team from eigenlabs, actually. |
Speaker A: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Sriram will definitely see you at Ethan as well. |
Speaker B: Absolutely. Yep. |
Speaker A: Bankless nation. You guys, thank you so much for coming on and answering all these questions from myself and the community. I feel much smarter about Eigen lair bankless. |
Speaker B: Thanks for the deal. |
Speaker A: Crypto is risky. Staking is risky. Restaking is re risky. You can lose what you put in. That was a terrible pun, but we are headed west. This is frontier. It's not for everyone. But we are glad you are with us on the bankless journey. Thanks a lot. |
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