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A | Bankless nation. Not every single day is launch day for a protocol. The Eigen layer token details are here. Don't call it an airdrop. This is a stake drop. That's because that's the only thing that you can do with your Eigen layer tokens right out of the gate. Brian, how are you doing today, my man? |
B | I'm good. |
C | I'm pretty excited about this stake drop we got going on. So what are we in for? What's happening? |
A | We're going to cover all of the details. There's been some feedback on Twitter, some people have some questions about how this whole thing works. We're bringing on stream and Robert, Robert, the new director of the Eigen Layer foundation on the show today to answer all these questions and unpack the announcement detail... |
C | Wait, what? |
A | And we're going to unpack exactly what that is and how this actually increases the scope of what Eigen layer can provide security for. And so, like I said, in addition to the token details getting released, we're also getting the Eigen foundation with a new director, Robert Drost, who we're going to introduce here in j... |
D | Hey, David. Hi, Ryan. Excited to be here. |
A | And joining Sriram today is Robert Drost, the new director of the Eigen Lair Foundation. Robert also, welcome to Banklist. |
B | Hey, I'm so happy to be here. Thanks for having me on. |
A | So big day today, guys. This is not an airdrop. This is a stake drop. Um, first we have to explain what that is. So what is a straight drop stake drop and why are we getting one? Sreeram, what's the thought behind this? |
D | Yeah, the, the Eigen token is designed as a staking token in the Eigen layer ecosystem. And a staking token allows for new functionality that heat staking alone cannot provide. And the tokens designed around this functionality and so that's why we're calling it a stake drop, where, you know, users who participated in t... |
A | Go for it. |
B | Robert, I was just going to add, I mean, because people do talk about staking a lot. The token has this, you know, I think it's, it's a good contribution, but this technical underpinning where it is, you know, it is a token, but it also has this ability that it can be viewed inter subjectivity. Inter subject intersubje... |
A | Oh my gosh. |
C | Intersubjectively, yeah. |
B | Getting ready for the airdrop contribution. Yeah, exactly. So that allows the token to have abilities that are harder to normally do. So it allows there to be social consensus outside, and people can organize and decide about actions that would be hard, basically impossible to tell on chain. So it adds a new element of... |
A | So there's been some just questions about like why is the token, like frozen on chain, right. Is currently the Eigen token is non transferable. And Eigen layer has been in this process of slowly rolling out component after component after component, putting it on Mainnet. Airdrop days or stake drop days are very big da... |
B | Yeah, that's a good way to put it. I think for things like data availability specifically, there are certain kinds of conditions that are really essential that you have this ability to have social consensus that way. It's known that if people are doing certain types of tax, it could be seen. There's a good comparison o... |
A | Yeah. This inter subjective forking is a mechanism that I remember Auger invoking way back in the day. And for people who are trying to still wrap their heads on what that is, think of it like a hard fork, but for the app layer. And it's really something that the Eigen token specifically is bringing into the scope of E... |
B | Yeah, I think similar to a lot of situations, if you were talking about things that are in the public markets, talking about a lot of future things. We are trying to say as much as we can without getting to a situation where we are giving specific details on things. We do have a good plan for how we are thinking about ... |
A | So the snapshot for season one was March 15. So, of course, what that means is the parameters of season one are closed, but it sounds like the parameters of future seasons is still up in the air. And so we are on like a slow rollout of, like, this eventual full scope of the release of the token. |
B | Yeah, by necessity. You know, you can't speak about things until the time's coming up. We have some ideas about what's happening. We have communicated that we're looking for ecosystem participation. We are looking for things after that date. We are going to look at things before that date. It's one of these. I think th... |
A | Inside of season one. Again, which is this season, there's phase one and phase two. So I'm hoping we can kind of provide some clarity on these two different phases. Phase one has the bulk of the eigenstake drop inside of it, and then phase two is accounting for these edge cases. Can you walk us through the different ph... |
B | Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I think the first part, to talk about the principle, we originally opened up the app, and people could stake either eth or lsts, restake them. And the goal is very much, we like to look at the end users and people who are actually coming into the system and make sure that we're looking dir... |
A | So, so the base, I think the. |
D | Numbers, David, just one thing. The numbers 90% and 10% maybe threw off some people seemed like their own numbers. They were not like hand allocated, they just the outcome of a natural calculation. Yeah, and it's not exactly 90% and 10%. There is some round off the stuff, but the actual numbers are, you know, somewhere... |
B | Yeah, we can actually. That's right. They came out to roughly those numbers and it's just sort of easy numbers to put out there. The exact ones were calculated down to specific numbers and. Yeah, I guess if people are interested at some point, we can just put it out. You'll see by May 10 or, sorry, after May 10 and pha... |
A | Okay, so let me try and summarize the whole phase one and phase two of season one. Just as I understand it, the 90%, which is phase one, which is what's happening today, is the bulk of base case of restaking inside of eigen layer, which is totally objective eth inside of eigen layer per unit time. And this is a calculu... |
B | Yeah, that's a fair summary. And you captured a really key point there, which is open innovation means that the protocols, they did all these things not attached, no guidance from us. They had interpretation and just people are free to do what they want. That's the big value of the crypto world, is self determination, ... |
C | Let me try to attempt to summarize where we've gotten this conversation. I want folks to be crystal clear on what's just happened. All right, so there was a token. Now it's called Eigenv. Right? Eigen, that's a token that is now locked. Eigen layer has done a stake drop, not quite an airdrop stake drop. We've talked ab... |
B | Yes, that's right. |
C | Okay, perfect. So, Robert, could you tell us a bit more about what people can do with the Eigen tokenization right now? So it's locked, but what sort of things can folks do with it? |
B | So I should clarify one thing, because we did the announcement today, people can go to the claims page and they can check on, making sure that they are there. There's an escalation process, there's discord and others where people go if they think there's errors and other stuff. So we have a team ready to kind of resolv... |
C | Got it. Claim today. But they can check to see if an address is eligible. |
B | Yes, that's right. You can check that your address is eligible. If it's eligible. That means it's in phase one. If you did activity and it was in one of those protocols. If you look through the FAQ, there's a list of contract addresses. And those protocols are going to be included in phase two. So there's information t... |
C | Okay, so, Robert, at this point, people can see what they're eligible for. They've addressed, but they can't do a claim yet. After May 10, they will be able to do a claim. And then once they claim, they will be able to actually delegate. Then through the kind of the governance process and the AV's. And they'd stake to ... |
B | I mean, it's actually the whole reason for Eigen layer to exist. So it's good for people to kind of, and I appreciate you guys have a platform where we can talk about it a little bit. The goal of Eigen layer is to like, more general purpose, allow what used to be you're going to create a new ethereum or filecoin or, yo... |
C | Okay, so why are the token, like, when do the tokens become unlocked? So they're locked right now, but is there, is there a date by which at some point in the future they come unlocked? |
B | Three things that we're looking for, and we're going to want to try to get through them quickly, like one of them. On the community side, it's really important. We dropped an intersubjective work token and we're actually taking people back to basics. Inter subjectivity. Oh God, I said it that time and social consensus.... |
C | So, Robert, are you saying right now there's not an unlock date per se? Some ideas have to propagate, or like back to the people who are wondering at what date. Is there a concrete date by which this unlocks, or is there some kind of an estimate? |
B | Yeah, I mean, they're non boundary like that first one, there's going to be a wave. You're never like this. You know, we want there to be some time, but it's not going to be waiting around for years and anywhere close to that. The second factor is probably an important one, which is payments and slashing. So having the... |
C | Okay. And I think I heard in this, maybe months, not years, would be sort of an estimate of when unlock. |
B | Yeah, I mean, there's been a lot of work on it already. We can't say for sure exactly when people that we're working with. Of course, there's a lot of really good, robust incentive type researchers around. Ethereum Eigen layer is like, barring a lot of, you know, a lot of the best ideas that we can get from it. But, yo... |
A | Okay, so it sounds like the answer here is just like, there's some actual technical infrastructure that needs to get built in order for the actual token to get unlocked. And then also there needs to be some sort of just like community understanding. There needs to be more conversations about what an inter subjective wo... |
B | Yep, yep. And then the third part that's important is, you know, we so Sriram and the team, you know, made the decision, this is going in the path of progressive decentralization. So the foundation was formed a while back. We were doing work in order to get ourselves ready for this point. And so we were able to launch ... |
A | Trivam, I want to bring you in here as the information theory expert here about inter subjective forking. Can you talk about just like increased scope of what the contract system around the Eigen token, what this whole system of inter subjective forking, what this unlocks for Eigen layer? What does Eigen layer do? It p... |
D | Yeah, really the rest of the things are really supporting this particular thing, which is that how do we enable more people to build new actively validated services on top of Eigen layer? So you start from there, and as you know, some of you know, here we are building ourselves Eigen Labs is building ourselves the firs... |
C | So srivram, really quick, I'm with you so far, right? And I can understand why this is a bad thing. Eigen layer nodes withholding data is not fulfilling their duty of an Eigen layer node. Just a quick side quest, though, is like, why would they do that? Like, we would call that, like, corruption. Like, what sort of thi... |
D | That's a great question. When we're building these blockchain systems, we want to protect against all kinds of nuclear events. And a nuclear event here that one would be worried about is all the Eigen layer validators coming together and saying, hey, let's just attack the system. Why would they attack the system by wit... |
C | Okay, so if that happens, basically your validator set, you're kind of like, node set turns evil. They get corrupt for a lot of chains, a lot of consensus systems. That's kind of like game over. It's like reset time. Like, oh, the system's dead. It's corrupted. Right. It no longer works. But I think where you're gettin... |
D | Exactly. So this, again comes from deep in the Ethereum research culture that we want to build for world War three, as we call it in Ethereum. But the idea being that what kind of systems can withstand all these complex attacks? And, you know, people, you know, some people might say, oh, why are you worried about such ... |
C | I get it. Thats very cool. So the net gain is it makes Eigen layer and kind of like the validator node set of Eigen layer nodes more corruption resistant, right. Because there can always be this fork that happens and thats all embedded in the protocol. So it's like one example of something that wasn't intersubjective f... |
D | That is correct. So, you know, so this core idea, I think David mentioned earlier that this was from Augur and actually from some of Vitalik's blog posts, and even earlier from an idea called Truth Coin, which was a forking version of Futarchy. There's a kind of like a history to this, you know, in the blockchain space... |
C | I'm laughing because people came for the airdrop and we're finishing this episode with a masterclass on crypto economics. And that was both geeky and incredibly cool and incredibly ambitious, I would say. And I think shows a lot of foresight into the seriousness of how you guys are designing Eigen layer to sort of plan... |
D | Absolutely. The white paper is published on the Eigen layer webpage. Its link is, you know, we'll give you a link at the end of the end of the chat. There is also a blog post. You know, the paper is pretty dense and long. You know, it's a 40 plus page paper, but there is a five page blog post which is, you know, a some... |
A | Right. |
D | So there are some core parameters like this. How do you define a new AV's now inherits the forkability. Like, you know, it's like a constitution, and like, you know, edits to the constitution. What is the mechanism? Is it enough that you just take an eigen layer? Is the, does it have to be returned somewhere? What are ... |
B | Yeah, and it's really important. It would be, I mean, it would be possible to make some guesses at what are the right thing to do. But as we've seen with Ethereum and others, look at how, look at how much effort is put into the design parameters on 1559, or in thinking about going from 32 ETH validators to 1000 plus ET... |
A | And while that was kind of a lot, it's actually kind of simple at the same time. Once you've put all the pieces together, really, a lot of this complexity stems from the fact that we want Eigen to be interoperable with DeFi, yet also have to this forking ability. And so, like the base case of Eigen, actually kind of li... |
B | Yeah, I mean, the foundation, it's brand new in terms of being public. It's been behind the scenes for a little while now. There's a lot of prep involved in the process of getting up to doing one of these types of transitions. From having, you know, a labs running entire protocol to the labs making the trusted decision... |
C | Okay, so just some straggling questions as we finish this conversation off. So people are probably wondering, points, what does anything happen to Eigen layer points? Is that, is there a points program continuing moving forward? Do you have any comments on this? |
B | Yeah. So as far as, like after March 15 was the cutoff date and, you know, everything from that point on is still in the system. It's not part of this season, but it's all tracked and, you know, it is, nothing is, nothing is going away. Nothing is like going to stop being considered going forward. We just had to pick a... |
C | So some of the messaging for this conversation is today, folks can go to the website and go check to see how much their, their address might be eligible for. Except, and this is a subset of bankless listeners, people who live in the US are hit with a block and other certain jurisdictions are hit with a block and also n... |
B | Yeah, I mean, it's a difficult situation. Like you're saying it's not possible to operate in the space without following regulatory guidelines and being responsible to that. And the challenging part is there's not a lot of clarity. And, you know, there is pretty strict guidance around what is possible to be done and no... |
C | One thing I'll say to bankless listeners from me personally, if you're angry, go contact your Congress representative, go contact your lawmakers. Get involved politically, because that's what it's going to take to sort of change some of these things. |
B | Yeah, I'll get on my pedestal for a second as well, which is, I mean, we, you know, we have a government. We actually, you know, it is our government in the United States especially. I assume you're kind of talking more about countries such as the US. And so, yeah, the voting system is, you know, where we really get ou... |
C | Yeah, sometimes, Robert, I wish we had an inner subjective fork in the US that we could just kind of route to, but I don't know if that's baked in the constitution. So we're working. We got to work these things out socially. |
B | Conference where one of the big. There's a number of senators and others who are trying to push this forward. There are states that are a lot more aggressive about trying to represent the real interest. You know, I think a lot of the laws we have, they were created a time that's very hard for them to anticipate the rap... |
A | Yeah, we're just tying off some loose ends here. I'm collecting some questions from people in the bankless nation. Discord. There's like, a different, whole different, like, rabbit hole. We could go down on, like, a sizing philosophy for distributing a token to the community. There's, like, linear versus unlinear. Ther... |
B | Yeah, I mean, I think the general parameter that we have is we want to make sure that there's meaningful participation early on from the whole community. And we know in this case we have a lock token. And there's still a lot of more that we are looking at making sure that we're able to get people in and kind of reward ... |
C | Well, congrats to the eigen ecosystem. On the stake drop is definitely another exciting milestone in what we've observed with Eigen layer shipping so much and kind of this whole narrative and idea around restaking has been really excited to go down the rabbit, the rabbit hole. So I have a question for each of you guys ... |
D | Yeah, I think looking forward to some of the unblocking some of the technical infrastructure, like payments and slashing, getting them ready and going on Mainnet, that would be the biggest thing we are looking at from labs. |
C | How about you, Robert? |
B | Yeah, I think the compliment for that, the foundation, its goal is to serve the larger community, to be able to meaningfully get involved. And so what I'm really excited about is as our foundation is getting our, our feet planted and we are able to communicate more with the community, allow more people to be involved i... |
C | Exciting times. Robert Sriram, thank you so much for joining us today on bankless. |
A | Congrats, guys. |
C | Thank you. One thing to leave you with, of course, is be careful of scam links. There could be all sorts of go to the official channels. We will include links in the show notes to those official channels. We can see the announcements and you can see the links and all of those details. Gotta remind you, of course, crypt... |
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