podcasts
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Collection for podcasts • 511 items • Updated • 2
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A | After the twelve years in the crypto and I think I become a crypto native, I start to feel like this is my home. If I sell all the crypto and go any other places, there is nowhere I can go. |
B | Welcome to Bankless, where we explore the frontier of Internet money and Internet finance. This is Ryan Sean Adams. I'm here with David Hoffman and we are here to help you become more bankless. Guys, we have Justin sun, the controversial founder of the Tron blockchain, on the podcast today. Why in the world did we do t... |
C | Yeah, I had fun. |
B | I had fun as well. If you are not familiar with Tron, it's an open source proof of stake layer one chain. It was launched during the peak of ico mania back in September 2017. If you were around at that time, you will remember it as a copypasta of Ethereum. And historically, I'd say it's been really dialed up to the max... |
C | Desist is actually how this podcast got started. You know, bankless, we're pretty good at making friends, and we, of course, were interfacing with Justin's lawyers, not Justin himself. And I can't remember some podcast meeting that Ryan and I were having. A bank list. We just had the idea, like, haha, what if we had Ju... |
B | Yeah, so did I. And certainly this is not an endorsement of Tron. And, you know, this is not a claim that Tron is the most decentralized blockchain on the planet. |
C | We definitely got one side of Justin's son. Yeah, we see. We saw the very, like, personable, happy side of Justin's son there. |
B | I gotta say, though, Dave, there's something to the fact that Tron has survived all of this time. And what doesn't lie to me is the attraction that Tron actually has in the stable coin market. And it's actually incredibly impressive. |
A | The. |
B | The amount of block space it's selling, the fees that it's throwing off. |
C | Like, it's traction that even Ethereum would be jealous of. |
B | Yeah, there. There's something here, and it is surprising. So, one other thing, David. I want to talk a little bit about the backstory of this episode, more detail on how it came to be and what were some of the provisions going into the episode. But we'll save that for the debrief conversation. If you're a bankless cit... |
A | Thank you, Ryan and David. |
B | Okay, so this is the first time we've had you on bankless, actually. And I don't know, David. We've been doing this podcast for about four years. So we've gone through some stuff in crypto, some crypto cycles, and you've been through many cycles in crypto as well. So I think we should really start this conversation by ... |
A | Yes, sure. So in around 2011, I graduated from Peking University in Beijing at that time, and then I applied for the graduate school in United States in UPenn. So I joined up around 2012. And then at 2012, I started getting started to know about bitcoin. So at that time, bitcoin is around $1 trading on empty docs. But ... |
B | This is really fascinating to hear. Your journeys begin with ripple very early as well into your career. It sounds like after graduating university. It's funny, I remember Vitalik Buterin saying in 2013 he actually tried to get an internship at Ripple. For some reason he didn't. But I'm not sure if you took his job, Ju... |
A | I think for me, I'm quite lucky. When I first graduated from school, the first thing come to my mind is cryptocurrency. Actually, I haven't had a chance to get into AI industry, to get into other tech industry. So the first industry I get in is crypto. So that's why I also feel it's kind of lucky to find a long career ... |
C | Yeah. |
A | Yeah. |
C | Well, Justin, we're entering the 2024 bull market. It's either the fourth or fifth crypto cycle, depending on how you account them. And you've actually seen all of them. And the number of people that see all of these crypto cycles becomes extremely rare. The number of cycles that we go on, it's, it's hard to last in cr... |
A | Yes. Um, actually, um, this year has been, um, has been twelve years I have been in this industry. Um, so I think for the, for the first cycle, um, I think sometimes, um, this kind of idea kind of across my mind is like, I will sell all my crypto and I can take the money and leave the table, right? It's like in a casin... |
B | Yeah, it's funny, the idea of nowhere to go. That's sort of how, yeah, whenever I am thinking about selling some of my crypto, people forget about the other side of that, which is you have to buy something else. I think about what else am I going to buy, right? Do I want fiat? Am I more bullish on stocks? This is why i... |
A | Yes, I definitely believe this cycle is different from the three, like four cycles we have been through. One of the biggest difference, I believe is mass adoption. So before that even. I think mass adoption has become like a narrative, right? Everybody believe in, but we never been so close to this narrative. Today, if... |
C | Justin, I kind of want to ask about your personal vision for yourself, your own identity, and also your vision for your impact on the world. All of these builders that I think have lasted the test of time have some sort of thesis about how crypto works and what it's going to do for the world and how it's going to chang... |
A | Yes, I believe my perspective for my role become, I will say more humble after this twelve years journey, because I think when I first joined the crypto industry, I'm always thinking what want to do in this industry and what I want the world to become. So that's why clearly I have a design like how Tron protocol gonna ... |
B | Yeah, I think, Justin, it's an interesting comment. I've kind of like, watched your character arc over time. And one thing I would say is I personally, I think maybe the world would appreciate a humble era. Justin sun, because I would say Tron did not start that way. Right. I think a lot of people listening to this are... |
A | Yes, definitely. I think one of the reason we created Tron is just why want to bank the unbanked? Because I think most of people in United States probably not aware of. Probably most of people, majority of the people in the world actually don't have bank account because I actually live in those regions when I was, I th... |
B | Yeah. Like I said, I've actually been very, very surprised, in a pleasant way, that TrOn has had so much traction, particularly in the developing market. Another thing that surprised me, actually, Justin, is the economics of TrON. So bankless listers will know. The way David and I sort of approach these asset classes i... |
A | Yes. When I first, like, uh, um, designed like a tron network. Right. So I think several, like, principles on why I design Tron block in this way. First of all, it's like 100%, like fee burns. It's because I believe this is the cleanest way to should be happen to the Tron blockchain. Because I believe, like, if we dist... |
C | Yeah, I wanted to definitely get into the structure of the tron blockchain as it, as it stands today. And as it'll stand in the future, maybe. But maybe we can start from the beginning. Justin. My first impression of the Tron blockchain, I think is pretty representative of the typical Ethereum person's perception of th... |
A | Yes, I discuss this with compound founder Robert. Actually, we come to a conclusion, like, lots of people will be surprised, actually. So one of the mistake I think I make in around 2017 is I should copy Ethereum 100% rather than 95%. One of the biggest problem here is, you know, when we copy Ethereum 95%, and then lot... |
C | So making Tron 100% like Ethereum is always going to be like a technical challenge. And at some point, you can't really get all the way there. But there's also the non technical aspects of a blockchain. You've called Tron the world's largest decentralized ecosystem. In advertisements. I remember at consensus in 2018, t... |
A | I wouldn't do this kind of advertising for now. I think that is like back to 2020 when we first be in a consensus conference, my team is, we can't find a spokesperson for Trump. I said, why not just try myself? We don't even have realize we will create these kind of things people might discuss. And for today, I think T... |
B | So, Justin, I have kind of like maybe a personal request as someone who is crypto native in the ecosystem, and I want to see how this lands with you. So you were kind of laughing earlier about the 2018 picture of your face where you have the world's largest decentralized ecosystem, and it's like, Justin sun space, righ... |
C | Not actually the whole post, just the bear side. Yeah, just the bear side of the bullying. |
B | And so the context here is, like, we've seen aggressive marketing. The first time we actually write something about Tron, we get a cease and desist that feels aggressive, too. Like, I'm just like, you don't need to do that. Do you have any thoughts here? Any, any comments here? |
A | Yes, I can agree with you. I'm a crypto native founders. Right. I know, like, what crypto people thinks. So I definitely know. Trust me. But sometimes, you know, things get a little bit complicated for, like, when, like, lawyer involved, you know, know, I don't. Sometimes I can't really, like, control, like, the legal ... |
C | Justin, I want to hang on this whole cease and desist thing. Fortunately, bankless is successful enough to the point where we can hire and manage our own lawyers. So we had our lawyers guiding us against your lawyers. But if a smaller, more independent content creator was interested in writing a critical piece about Tr... |
B | Or let's say if your legal team does it without your knowledge, can we surface it to you and just be. |
C | Like, hey, like, come on, not these guys. |
A | Trust me. I completely understand your point because I am the, like one of the donors for Holden up against the, against Craig Lee, Craig Wright on the, on the lawsuit. And I was also one of the sponsor for Remember when the Mercy Brothers XPT. I'm also like one of the donors for that. And also I'm also the one of the ... |
B | You know what, Justin? What? One idea I have for you. I know in the past that there have been some like skeptics in the Ethereum community, right. And I think that you are like you've survived this long. You have traction on Tron. I almost see like the crypto native community kind of warming up to what you're doing at ... |
A | I will say definitely Ethereum. So I'm actually one of the earliest supporter for Ethereum when it's doing ISO fundraising. So I trade my first ethereum on Poloniex at that time, since Poloniex is like one of the major blockchain, sorry, exchange supporting Ethereum at that time. And I have been one of the biggest mine... |
C | There was a post that I saw you write, Justin, maybe like a week or two ago, talking about some of the next plans for Tron, the technical plans, and that involved a bitcoin layer two. Maybe you could illuminate some of the plans that you have for Tron in 2024 and 2025 as it relates to bitcoin. What's going on over ther... |
A | Yes, shorter, totally. So first of all, I think for building a layer two for bitcoin is like dream for everyone. Every developers since Vitalik is trying to do something on bitcoin in terms of like smart contract, like back to 2013. So that's why I be, I believe a bitcoin like layer two solution compatible with like Tr... |
B | So if that's what's next for TroN, the chain itself, I'm curious, what's next for Justin sun? What are you planning to do? Is Tron kind of your project for the next half decade or more? Are you going to get up to some other things. Where does your future lie? |
A | Yes, for me, I think first of all, there's nowhere else for me to go. I have to stick in the crypto industry. And also, of course, since I'm the founder of Tron, I will still spend majority of my time to think about how we can utilize the Tron blockchain to empower everybody around the globe, including users, developer... |
B | Justin, you mentioned CZ and I can tell by the way you talk about his kind of departing speech that maybe he is someone you admire. And, um, who else, who are some other figures in crypto that, that you'd like and admire? |
A | Um, CD, definitely the one I think I learned from him since the beginning. Uh, and also I think definitely, uh, Vitalik. I actually, you know, read like every post, blog post of Vitalik. |
B | What do you like about Vitalik? What do you like about him? |
A | Vitalik is like a goldmine. You know, like every time, like when, I don't know, like what's happening and what's going on in the crypto world. And I went to like Vitalik blog posts and, and read those posts and I really like, learned to lots of things from Vitalik and I always feels like Vitalik's idea is actually, you... |
B | Have you ever talked to Vitalik, Justin? Have you ever like, yeah. What do you think Vitalik thinks of Tron and what you're up to? |
A | I actually know about Vitalik back to 2015. So we met in Beijing. We actually take a picture together and discuss lots about how to build things in the crypto space. But of course, after, like, when I create trial. Right. Vitalik and I don't really, like, talk much, but last time, actually we spoke is about the donatio... |
B | I would actually love for you guys. I don't know if this is possible, but in my world, it would be really interesting for you and Vitalik to connect sometime. And this obviously doesn't have to be public on a podcast, but I recall you bidding for a lunch with Warren Buffet at one point in time. This is one of the big k... |
A | Yes, I'm open to this idea for sure. |
C | One person that you're on record for saying that you admire outside of the crypto industry, Justin, is Elon Musk. What do you think about Elon Musk today? How do you feel about him as a leader or a role model? Does the take that you had a few years ago still stand? |
A | Yes, I think still stands one of the. Because I graduated from Hupa University, which my mentor is Jack Madden. So I think one of the. Actually, Jack Ma is as crazy as Elon Musk. He wants to do lots of crazy things as well. But one of the biggest reason is the reality in China. Once you are in China, become an entrepre... |
B | Well, Justin, this has been a fascinating conversation. I've learned a lot. And, you know, I'm, I'm glad we had this today. I guess as we maybe wrap out, wrap up and close this conversation, I'm wondering if you'd give kind of a last word to somebody that has not used TrOn is maybe skeptical about it. Yeah. Give your p... |
A | First of all, I believe Tron going to be last forever. We are a crypto blockchain with 200 million users and with 15 billion market cap of the stablecoin here, there is numerous of the people making transaction on TrON network around $15 billion. It's not like a very simple numbers. It becomes supporting people's lives... |
B | Well, Justin, thank you for joining us today. It's been a great conversation. |
A | Thank you, bankless nation. |
B | I will leave you with some action items, including I pulled a lot of stats from this episode. I'll link you to those links where I got those stats. Some fantastic reports about Tron. Got to end with this, of course, risks and disclaimers. You know, crypto is risky. You could lose what you put in. But we are headed west... |
C | Again, the bankless journey. |
B | But we're glad you're with us on the bankless journey. Thanks a lot. Let's just keep that in. David. |
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