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Speaker A: Bangladesh. It's a debrief. This episode is not going out on Monday. So usually we wouldn't record a debrief because we generally only do debriefs for Monday episodes. But Ryan here. |
Speaker B: Yeah, I wanted to. |
Speaker A: Wants to do one. |
Speaker B: I wanted to. |
Speaker A: Why do you want to do a debrief for this episode? |
Speaker B: Because. Okay, so some episodes, like an Eric wall episode is like a nice but very long and slow meal. It's like a whole meal. You have to, like, digest. |
Speaker A: Yeah, it's like a seven course meal. And they only bring out to you bit by bit by bit. |
Speaker B: Yes, exactly. It's just the opposite of fast food or the way I generally eat my meals, which is, like, really quick. |
Speaker A: You don't enjoy them. |
Speaker B: I mean, but sometimes there's time for that. Anyway, it's like that. And I wanted to say many things. I wanted to even talk to you about many things, like confirm understanding. But with an Eric wall conversation, I think that kind of interrupts the flow. And he was getting to all of. |
Speaker A: Those slowly progressing very methodically through, like, bitcoin layer. |
Speaker B: So why did I want this? Cause I have more to say. I want to talk to you about some things that we didn't talk to on the podcast, which is, like, for me, that episode was the best episode I had heard on actual l two building and what's real and what's not. And I came away from that episode feeling like. I jus... |
Speaker A: Right. |
Speaker B: Or there's, like, somebody who doesn't understand roll ups from the Ethereum perspective at all. And so, like, just is so new to it, they just can't even talk about it. Or at least even if they can talk about, they can't translate that into Ethereum roll up language, which is, like, let's face it, Ethereum i... |
Speaker A: I think the perspective of Eric Wall is a roll up. Maximalist is like pretty poignant because that was like, the reason why he was ostracized from the bitcoin world in the first place, was trying to basically scale bitcoin not via lightning network, but via v, via ZK tech and other things you could do with t... |
Speaker B: I can't believe he doesn't say he's technical. |
Speaker A: Yeah. Um, but like, I think this is also kind of like emblematic of one of the big lessons I've learned over the last two years. And like, Eric wall left bitcoin in pursuit of, like, some intuitive idea that later became roll ups. And now today's world, the bitcoin community. |
Speaker B: Right? |
Speaker A: Like, ostracized from the bitcoin community because. |
Speaker B: They were not the fundamentalist. Maximalist community. Not everybody. Right? |
Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. Like, he ostracized from the bitcoiners. |
Speaker B: Right, okay. From the religion. Yeah. |
Speaker A: But then bitcoin itself is now, like, what is bitcoin now? And all the building that's happening on bitcoin, it's because bitcoin discovered its own data availability layer. Yeah. Like, oh, it turns out I have data availability in me before we knew what data availability was. |
Speaker B: Yep. |
Speaker A: And so, like, the sovereign roll ups, which Celestia is pioneering roll ups at all, which ethereum is pioneering ERC 20 tokens and non fungible tokens, or on bitcoin, this is, it kind of goes back to, like, what I kind of believe to be true of the crypto universe is actually. There is one logical conclusion ... |
Speaker B: Sure. |
Speaker A: And ethereum, bitcoin, Celestia Solana are all, like, trying to figure out how to get there. |
Speaker B: Yep. |
Speaker A: And they're taking different strategies for getting there. But, like, there's this one, like, magnet that all blockchain architectures is, like, attracted to. And different, like, systems that are developed will stay appended to these blockchains, like, data availability until that magnet is found. |
Speaker B: Yeah, I think that four quadrants model that you put out is pretty good. And they're all kind of like, drifting towards the middle, almost. Right. And the four quadrants model is, what is it, like on the top or the top row? Let's say the top two highest quadrants. It's a big block. No, sorry. It's unexpressi... |
Speaker A: It's not been optimized to do this. |
Speaker B: It's not. There's another funny part where you said something, well, Ethereum rollups have to be decentralized, too. And Eric's like, David, you know, you've gotten wiser as you've aged, right? And I was thinking to myself at the same time, so has Eric, all right? Because I remember the first bankless podcas... |
Speaker A: Right. |
Speaker B: So he's come a long way as well. |
Speaker A: And the whole David, you've come a long way line is like, I think what he's talking about is once upon a time. And honestly, still, I would look at the centralized sequencers and the multi sigs of optimism, and I'd be like, guys, don't worry about that. Like, that's so temporary. Like, think about, like, rol... |
Speaker B: Sorry, you would have glossed over it more, is what you're saying. |
Speaker A: I've always, like, glossed over, like, you and I, as podcasters and in the Ethereum space, are critiqued for, like, not being critical of the layer two space that we hold. So in so high regard because of our opinions and beliefs. And people would say, bag bias. But, like, what we would say is like, well, tha... |
Speaker B: Sure, sure. |
Speaker A: And so, like, Eri and me. So, but when I go into the podcast and I say like, oh, but also, Ryan, layer twos aren't finished either. And Eric was like, david, you're so. I've just been like, more like middle grounded by receiving 10,000 punches from Solana people over the years. But I'm just marginally more p... |
Speaker B: Willing to. I don't know, I don't. Maybe it's because we've changed together. I just. I feel like if they sound. If they did sound bites of what you said or what we said, collectively, they could have come away with this idea that David Wright or bankless thinks that l two s are completely decentralized toda... |
Speaker A: Misinterpretation. Yeah, the. |
Speaker B: The bank listeners can be the judge of that. Um, I did think one of the most valuable pieces of the conversation for me in terms of my knowledge progression, was that exhaustive analysis of BitVM. So, yeah, coming into that is completely new to me. Yes. Coming to this conversation, um, BitVM. And even from o... |
Speaker A: And so, but he also said that there's still like a. It's not a solved problem yet, 100%. |
Speaker B: But like, if anybody's gonna solve it, they're gonna solve it. Um, we've heard that from a lot of the bitcoin layer two teams, which is like, basically we're starting off centralized, more centralized, like, look at, like a side chain. And then what's your solution to decentralization? It's bit VM. And the i... |
Speaker A: Right. That's a, that's more than a little bit longer. |
Speaker B: But the rest of it where he talked about the, the fatal flaw, I consider it a fatal flaw. Massive fatal flaw, like liquidity crunch, liquidity crisis, type of event where the operator, in order to like enable redemptions, actually has to be, has to have that cash on hand. To the extent that's true, that feel... |
Speaker A: Yeah. Right. Just start with a multisig then. |
Speaker B: Yeah. So it's less of, from this conversation anyway. It's less of a holy grail than I had thought going into this. Now we're going to schedule something with the BitVM folks. Right. So we'll be able to talk to them directly about this and maybe there's design patterns around this, but. Yeah, that was all ne... |
Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. And like, the thing is, this is bitcoins current roadblock. But if you just believe in human ingenuity, it will find its way over that roadblock. And at the very end of the progression of the cryptography industry, you can literally do anything you want with sufficient cryptography. You just thro... |
Speaker B: Yes, I agree with that. But like, provided, David, provided they add an opcode, they have to have some, like, so my. |
Speaker A: I don't know if that's true. |
Speaker B: Okay. |
Speaker A: I think you can squeeze cryptography in corners no matter what. |
Speaker B: My takeaway coming from this conversation was they are squeezing everything into the calculator that they possibly can. And they've gotten great things from it. They've gotten ordinals, they've gotten runes from this, they've gotten these sovereign roll ups which are different. It's just totally different sc... |
Speaker A: Like, Ethereum moves at, like, lightning speeds comparison to bitcoin, because, like, bitcoin is like, yo, we do like one soft fork and we introduce one opcode every four years. And Ethereum does like, bulk eips, like six or seven or eight eips every 18 months. |
Speaker B: Yep. |
Speaker A: But then, have you seen the Solana discord? They're shipping patches like, every fucking week, dude. Lightning fast, man. |
Speaker B: Yeah, it's just a whole different value set. Did you hear Eric? He was basically, yeah. When you're arguing for an opcode, you're arguing against people who think if you add this opcode, the world's going to end. |
Speaker A: Right? |
Speaker B: Like, I don't think that's hyperbole. |
Speaker A: No, no, I think that's. That's how bitcoiners think. They're like, let's suss out every single, like, failure scenario of this opcode. Is this an attack on bitcoin? I love the line. This is an attack on bitcoin because it's, like, turned into, like, such a meme. I don't think many, like, newcomers. Listen, w... |
Speaker B: Why do you love that this is attack. |
Speaker A: This is an attack on bitcoin? |
Speaker B: Yeah. So many things. |
Speaker A: Well, that's kind of the joke is like, the bitcoiners who will, like, look at something and be like, oh, this is an attack on bitcoin. Oh, you're putting a jpeg on into data availability on bitcoin. That's an attack on bitcoin. Like, oh, you sold bitcoin to buy something that's an attack on bitcoin because y... |
Speaker B: And so, like, this was a high purity culture, though. |
Speaker A: He's super, super. Like, you don't really hear about this anymore. At least I don't, because I don't really, like, affiliate with bitcoiners as much as I once did. |
Speaker B: But, like, you're saying fundamentalist, maximalist. Not Eric Wall tribe, but zig tribe. |
Speaker A: Well, Eric wall called the. The BRC 20 token standard, like an attack on bitcoin because it is fundamental state bloat. And what he means by that, like, the regular, like, shitcoiners who are just, like, you know, buying and selling BRC twenties, doing some speculation. They're not attacking bitcoin. They're... |
Speaker B: Yeah. |
Speaker A: That, like, actually renders bitcoin useless. |
Speaker B: Right. |
Speaker A: So therefore, it's an attack on bitcoin. |
Speaker B: Yeah, an attack on bitcoin. Right. How does that lead to the end of the world? So attack on bitcoin. |
Speaker A: Bitcoin is going to save the world. |
Speaker B: Okay, cool. Bitcoin is basically a lifeboat for civilization. Right? And so an attack on bitcoin, you destroy bitcoin, you destroy humanity. Yeah. That's how that connection is made. So you can see if the stakes are that high. It could take some time to add something. But that's why I was saying to you, it's... |
Speaker A: No, I mean, every single opcode is its own case study, I think. So just because we had segwit go in and then Taproot went in after that. So it was segret, taproot and then it would be opcat. But these are, like, every one of these being accepted. |
Speaker B: Like, this conversation is the first time I heard a bitcoiner, like, make the case that we need opcat. |
Speaker A: I mean, I think this conversation has been around in bitcoin. Like, op cat. And also, covenants are, like, the big. The two big upgrades. |
Speaker B: Yep. |
Speaker A: Yeah, but, like, the conversations are, like, at a fucking snail's pace, bro. |
Speaker B: Yeah. |
Speaker A: Like, when I. When I go and I talk to, like, ck my old bitcoiner, like, mentorous, like, I lost him. Like, oh, so, like, what's the deal with covenants? And, like, he'll, like, update me. I'm like, oh, that's what it was, like four months ago. Great update. |
Speaker B: Sometime this decade. |
Speaker A: Yeah, maybe. |
Speaker B: Well, that was part of my question is, if you get a lot of just kinetic energy around building and, like, funding these bitcoin, quote, unquote layer twos, which are just, like, layer twos from a narrative perspective, does that actually put pressure on bitcoin itself to let in bitcoin core? |
Speaker A: I don't think it does. I think bitcoin core is actually pretty well politically buffered from the surrounding ecosystem because they're all open source devs who run on donations and grant money. And so there's actually a pretty strong political buffer between private interests and bitcoin core. |
Speaker B: So how do they decide? How does a bill become a law? How does a bip become a law? |
Speaker A: Honestly, we've never done an episode on bitcoin governance, I think, of. Pretty interesting. |
Speaker B: Really? Yeah, it's like, we've never been. |
Speaker A: We would. We would exit the episode being like, wow, I am so glad that's not us. That's a mess over there. |
Speaker B: It's gonna take a long time. And so as you guys were concluding that this is inevitable. Right. I think maybe you're more optimistic that we can find, like, they can find a way to stuff it somewhere else in. In the chain without adding an upcode. |
Speaker A: Maybe in the fullness of time. Like. Like I said, like, sufficiently advanced cryptography solves everything. |
Speaker B: What's, like, something beyond snarks because, like, you. You do need some, like, you need some stuff. You can't just do it with, like, math and subtraction. Yeah, your pluses and your minuses. That's all the thing does. |
Speaker A: I might be out of my death here, but, like, that's generally my. Just my understanding of cryptography is, like, just wait for it to get more advanced, and it can be more powerful, and you can fold it into smaller spaces. Yeah, but like, I don't know, maybe not. Maybe you're right. Bitcoin needs more opcodes... |
Speaker B: I personally, I like, I really like ordinals and runes. I think that's cool. I think it's very cool that you can put a jpeg on chain. Let me ask you this. This is a question I didn't ask Eric, but I was just kind of thinking it. Do you think Satoshi would approve of a dick butt being like the first ordinals ... |
Speaker A: Oh, specifically a dick butt or like, like the fact that you can insert. |
Speaker B: Your jPeg here, but like an irreverent JPEg that has like, no, you know, value or whatever? |
Speaker A: I think so. I think Satoshi was a big blocker. |
Speaker B: Really? Yeah, but that's not a big blocker. That's just, that's still not a big blocker. |
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