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Speaker A: Hey, guys, welcome to Debrief after our ETH in 2024 bull panel with the three panelists. David, good panelist selection, I would say for sure. Yeah, because you had a taste of the bull, but it wasn't like three kind of people saying similar things to anthony. Sasana. You had three people agreeing. They were ... |
Speaker B: Yeah, that was kind of cool. I liked that, actually. |
Speaker A: Yeah, I really enjoyed that. I was not expecting that. I think they all had some really good takes and some pushback. So it was like a bull episode, but like a sober bull episode, which is like my favorite kind, I think. |
Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. I think my biggest takeaway, and this has been, like, my opinion for a while, is like, ether and Ethereum, the narrative and understanding of ether the asset, the understanding of Ethereum the protocol and its vision for itself and what it can do is extremely complicated and hard to wrap your hea... |
Speaker A: There's a lot to talk about. I guess one thing I want to throw at you is this idea of Ethereum is at least this bull cycle for the last three to six months, let's say, has not been the Internet casino or the crypto casino. |
Speaker B: It is no more. |
Speaker A: It's not where the casino, not where the, and like, I think Ethereum expected, like the Ethereum community expected this to shift to layer twos, but some of it shifted to layer two, certainly. But over the past three months, let's say it's actually shifted to alternative layer ones and particular Solana. And... |
Speaker B: Yeah, like this is kind of how I've understood Solana. And it's like rise in the last, like half a year or so. It's just like, it's just the better casino. It's just what it is. And I think there's. We made a couple of different contrasting points on that episode. One is like, toy versus prime time, right? C... |
Speaker A: Fastest way to make incredible, the fastest. |
Speaker B: Way to make money. Right. Uh, and it's like, not, it's not the, it's not the mature version of this industry that we all expect to eventually export to the real world. And so it's the inside high school version of crypto, whereas Ethereum has always had its eyes on the. The largest, longest horizons, the mos... |
Speaker A: It's definitely. It's definitely a different game. And, and I think. I don't think it hit me as much. So I've been inside of kind of the bubble, I would say, of, like, understanding layer twos and Ethereum's pivot from an execution layer to like a settlement chain to, like a chain for other chains. And like,... |
Speaker B: But anyway, monopoly of being a casino. |
Speaker A: It'S a painful pivot for ethereum because it's pivoting its roadmap. This is the layer two pivot, essentially, of execution is going to be in the layer two. I know a couple of years ago, a few years ago, when I first realized that this was the direction Ethereum is moving in, I was like, oh, there's going to... |
Speaker B: To be on a layer two, I want to be where the action is. |
Speaker A: Yes. And so I think the resurgence of, like, because that is the plan. It's not like I see Twitter comments being like, ethereum's really got to fix its scaling. And what they mean is, like, it has to become like Solana and it scale out its base layer transaction per second. I'm just like, that's not what's ... |
Speaker B: It's definitely not. |
Speaker A: It's not going to be a degen setup. Right? |
Speaker B: Ethereum's pivoting to b two b. And so it makes perfect sense that the b two b chain, that's meant to be invisible, that's not meant to serve consumers. The layer one has a shit narrative on crypto Twitter because everyone is like, well, this doesn't make any sense to me. Like, yeah, I bet it doesn't. Like, ... |
Speaker A: Well, I think I underestimated the extent to which crypto assets are just purchased because, like, people go to that chain and then buy the native asset of that chain. Right? So, like, what. What could happen is if we have fewer people coming to Ethereum as their first experience, because they won't. Because... |
Speaker B: I don't know how much capital that actually is, though, in the grand, grand fullness of time. |
Speaker A: I don't know. Neither do I. And by by the way, I also think that could happen to layer twos as well, which is why I've not, um, weighted that pretty, like, very highly in my calculation. Right. Like, right now, as we're recording this debrief, isn't optimism, like, close to optimism. |
Speaker B: Highs, touching all time highs? Which is, like. It's funny because, like, the entire narrative is on Solana, and Solana's at $90 when it's all time high is $250, $280 or something. And optimism, is that at its all time highs, but that no one's talking about it. |
Speaker A: That's what I mean by, like, I'm worried the execution environment is not defensible because you have. You have one settlement, a layer, right? Just one ethereum. No one else is, like, competing in that domain right now. You have so many different execution environments. There are so many, and they are all c... |
Speaker B: Yeah. Um, two things that I want to unpack out from that episode. One is one really quickly, maybe you want to touch on it, too. Uh, credible neutrality is so underrated. So underrated. Uh, and I think preach, yeah, incredible neutrality. It's the fairness of the foundations that you build on. Is the foundat... |
Speaker A: Way, there's an episode we did with Vitalik where we touched on credible neutrality. I think that's the title's legitimacy, one of my all time favorite bank canonical episodes. |
Speaker B: One of the best. |
Speaker A: Like, if you have not caught that because you've entered bankless earlier, go look up the legitimacy episode with Jimacy, with Vitalik. |
Speaker B: That episode, that art article that he wrote to me was like, oh, Vitalik is putting names on forces. That is an all time first for humanity. He just named that force. And, and maybe other people have done it, but he did it so well. And in a modern era with modern context. And, yeah, it's just like, it's some... |
Speaker A: Invisible but still important or invisible, and it becomes no longer important. |
Speaker B: Invisible becomes no longer important. And kind of in the same way that, like, decentralization, like, the people of the world who care about decentralization, like crypto probably has most of those people already, like, we've already nerd sniped those people. And so like, the, for the power of credible neut... |
Speaker A: Well, that was my question at the end about, hey, what if the new generations don't care about decentralization? And like, the consensus answer from the group was, they probably won't. But over time, the decentralized protocols will be the survivors. And so in the long term iterative game that we're going to... |
Speaker B: The Solana response to that would be like, credible neutrality. Like, what the hell? You eth holders who bought eth cheap just want us to build on your platform and you guys are the kings because you were able to buy cheaper early than everyone else and to like, and this is one of the coordination defection ... |
Speaker A: We could just do this without your camera. A lot of people listening on the podcast, David's camera just went off camera just, oh, we're back with a new camera. |
Speaker B: We're back with a MacBook camera. Yeah. Cause it's cold as shit in my house. And so I turn on the heat and then like actual Cameron. So they camera. Anyways, what was I saying? Oh, yeah, so that, so that critique of just like, yo, you don't get, you're not the incredibly neutral platform because you guys all... |
Speaker A: Less company script, more community money, like, on its trajectory towards becoming a base money. Like, it's fascinating to me to hear how pissed off Jordy was about the all in guys, like, joking about how cheap they purchased Solana in these, like, private deals. |
Speaker B: Well, that was super cringe, dude. |
Speaker A: Well, it was, but also, Jordy heard that and was like, what am I doing? Like, this is not a stable store of, like, wealth. If the funny thing is, is like. |
Speaker B: Why is Solana pumping so hard right now? It's like, well, VC's all bought the hell out of the dump. Like, out of, like, lower 30, maybe. |
Speaker A: Yeah. Is that why? It's fundamentals, man. I don't know. |
Speaker B: Like, all the VC's are shilling Solana. |
Speaker A: Yeah. |
Speaker B: Because that's where the gains are to be made. |
Speaker A: Yeah. I do think the take about, like, your take about all layer ones kind of suffer the same fate of the people who purchased low become kind of rent extractors for the beginning. So that kind of, like, nullifies the argument across all of them. Reminds me of the pattern of fragmentation. The very frustrati... |
Speaker B: On Solana, your fragmentation, you're still. You're still far worse. |
Speaker A: If we have ethereum, all of these layer twos, cosmos chains, we have fragmented chains. |
Speaker B: Can I introduce you to Monad? |
Speaker A: Right. So, like, that argument is so, like, short term unless your chain becomes the king and wins. But, like, no, no, no, we want many chains. |
Speaker B: I don't know if Solana wants many chains. There's definitely a growing Solana maxi out there. |
Speaker A: Well, then that's. That's. Yeah, that's like a challenge. Then I think if you are the king, you have king type problems. So these things will come back to by Chiyo. |
Speaker B: Okay, but that was only the first. The first of two things that I want. |
Speaker A: Yeah, give me your second. |
Speaker B: Restaking. Restaking is going to be the theme of ethereum. Yeah, I won't liquid retaking tokens. |
Speaker A: Specifically, what do you think of this? This idea? I'm floating an idea by you. Okay. Ultrasound money meme has had its day and was incredibly effective. And all of the metrics behind ultrasound money, if you go to, like, the ultrasound money website, are absolutely essential in terms of understanding the m... |
Speaker B: It was all about being antagonistic to bitcoin. |
Speaker A: We don't need that crutch anymore. |
Speaker B: We don't. Yeah, we already won. I feel like even though bitcoin still. |
Speaker A: Has a big theory, one and, like, above two k. It already won. Above, you know, $250 billion. It already won. So now you move into, like, that was the high school meme. Now you move into the college meme, which is, like, Internet bond. |
Speaker B: I was gonna say the same thing, except I was gonna say, like, college. I was gonna say college into, like, young adulthood. Like, is getting its first drop. It's getting. It's. Ethereum is getting its first drop. It's like putting on a suit. First job. Yeah, first drop. |
Speaker A: Job. Okay. I think drop. I was like, what? |
Speaker B: Drop? Yeah, yeah. It's getting his first job. It's shedding its frat boy memes. |
Speaker A: I don't know. Above a trillion, you graduate college in the billions. I feel like we're college students, but. |
Speaker B: We all just predicted a trillion dollar network by the end of this year. Like, it. Excuse me. Excuse me. It needs to go get its first job, and so it has to put on a more polished narrative. |
Speaker A: Resume. Work up that resume. Cook up that resume. |
Speaker B: Yeah. |
Speaker A: So what do you think? As bankless has played a role in memetic forces, I will not say. I will not give us credit for being the originator of all a theory. Memetic forces. |
Speaker B: But as somebody had a role in most of them. Yeah. |
Speaker A: Smiling right now. As somebody's played a role in some of those memetic forces. What do you think of Internet bond? Jordy? Hated it. |
Speaker B: I've always loved the Internet bond. I've always thought it was great. Me too. |
Speaker A: And that's something we've talked about. I think it just becomes much more real when you start to get into restaking, and all of these apps give me a flavor. |
Speaker B: Ether, the bulk case for ether to summarize, everything that we've talked about, bull case for ether's yield and to what degree that eigen layer and wreath and increase its native real yields beyond just the native yield of the Ethereum blockchain is a, is a proxy for how bullish you can be. |
Speaker A: It's fascinating because then ether becomes the chief export of Ethereum. So Ethereum is exporting a pristine, decentralized block space, basically, right? Like, that's its export for settlement and for Da. Okay. But it has some other DA competitors in the game, and settlement won't necessarily have, I think... |
Speaker B: Some, one episode I want to do sometime this year is about how insecure the Internet is. And this is not even a crypto. This is just like, yeah, the Internet is an insecure place, and it's not fit for crypto. And actually, I kind of think crypto as a necessity is going to have to make the Internet more secur... |
Speaker A: Internet bond for Internet security, for Internet. |
Speaker B: Security in one way, shape or another? There's, there's a there there that I want to go tap into. |
Speaker A: Well, the, of course, the thing that really propels, uh, prices and markets during bull markets of the season. |
Speaker B: Yeah. |
Speaker A: Is speculation. Speculation is dj and type of behavior. Right. And so there's a question to me of whether a theorem is kind of, like, fully put on the suit, and it's just not going to have upside exposure in that d gen behavior. And then maybe you're looking at, like, the six to eight k type of range as far ... |
Speaker B: Like, game on. Yeah, yeah. |
Speaker A: Enjoy. Enjoy that, I guess. Like, again, I'm not encouraging this djen behavior, but, like, it's a little bit. |
Speaker B: Of a Moloch trap. You know? It's kind of. It's gonna happen no matter what. |
Speaker A: Yeah. Did you. Did you read chaos? Remember chow? We had him on talking about, aih. He wrote a post called degens are pioneers, extolling the virtues of degens, basically. |
Speaker B: Oh, yeah, sure. Yeah. The furthest west. Yeah, that's right. That's fair. |
Speaker A: I wrote a counter to that, though, which is, like, I agree with that. But also, if you hold someone else's assets, if you have their trust and you are risking their assets. |
Speaker B: Oh, yeah, sure. |
Speaker A: Yeah. If you are do Kwan or FTX, like SBF or Alex Mashinsky, Djen is not cool. Like, you are not a pioneer. You're. |
Speaker B: No, you're djen of your own assets. |
Speaker A: Yes. |
Speaker B: Not someone else's assets. |
Speaker A: The problem is I find that. That, like, in this promotion of Djen culture, it doesn't get translated to, like, whether, like, so Suzu or do you remember. Remember what? Do. Kwan used this so much, he was just split, basically, like, encouraging the Djensh and the populist rhetoric. |
Speaker B: Like, I just don't want to really lean into that. He was like, I am your savior. I am. Like, I will save you from your nine to five, blah, blah, blah. |
Speaker A: Just. I think that's gonna happen again in 2020. I'm not looking forward to it. Yes. That's an aside. |
Speaker B: So you remember when we ran into Danny Sessa for the first time? You know how that happened? This is one of the things I'm the most proud of, actually. |
Speaker A: People don't remember Danny Sesta. David. Maybe she'd give them a. That was a flash in the pan. |
Speaker B: It was very short. Yeah. It was like. It was like a kind of a terra unback, stable coin. And his prices, the abracadabra. There's, like, a whole ecosystem. There's a bunch of abracadabra. There's bell, there's wonderland. They're all just, like, going up. And I've always been a makerdao supporter, and I can'... |
Speaker A: And you got invited him attacked. |
Speaker B: Of course I'm not inviting you on my podcast. And, like, even people like Anthony Sedano, Eric Conner, they're like, oh, that's weird that you didn't know who Danny Sesta was. I had no idea who this guy was because it is the djinn side of crypto, and that's not my vibe. Like, between you and me, everyone is ... |
Speaker A: So, Boomer. |
Speaker B: We're both pretty boomer. |
Speaker A: Yeah. |
Speaker B: And. And, like, I just got so much shit for not, like, knowing who Danny Sesta was his army came after me like, he was in vogue because he had made a bunch of people a lot of money. And, like, it was one of the things. |
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