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Speaker A: Hey, guys, welcome to the debrief episode with, um, from our episode with Robert Breedlove on what is bitcoin. Wow. We are hundreds of episodes in David, and this is the first time we actually title an episode on what is bitcoin. Can you bring folks to the reason for that? Like, why have we waited this long ... |
Speaker B: Yeah, I think a part of that perspective also just comes with the story arc of bankless. Like, because you can't answer that question without talking about why Bankless was created and the environment that it was created in. So you and I were really getting to know each other in late 2019, early 2020, when w... |
Speaker A: Yeah, I think that's true from a market perspective, for sure. For a media market perspective, I guess I'll take another advantage point to it, which is the what is bitcoin story had already been told, like, ten years, man, and they had it nailed. Like, it was told, like, people in crypto actually knew that ... |
Speaker B: It was a bear market darling podcast. |
Speaker A: I really enjoyed it. And it was basically a bitcoin and ethereum argue about crypto stuff mostly collapsed. |
Speaker B: It's mostly philosophical differences about why we're in the systems and platforms that we're in. It was, to me, it was a big question where people would come into crypto and then they would immediately categorize themselves into a specific tribe. They would tribalize themselves. And this is still true to th... |
Speaker A: And it was very clear to this day he hasn't been like, oh, David, you were actually right about some things. Has he? |
Speaker B: Right. No. Except bitcoiner. Listeners of the podcast have been like, yeah, well, you know, if you listened to David, you would have made a lot more money. |
Speaker A: But that's different than kind of like saying, now I am open to non bitcoin things. Right. Which he's never. |
Speaker B: He is still just as committed to bitcoin as he always was. |
Speaker A: What do you think? What do you think it is about that? Right? Is there something in, you know, this episode with Robert where I was like, my God. So first of all, I get some reflections as you're going through it. It's like, fantastic explanation of money killer. Just fantastic. |
Speaker B: So good, so precious. |
Speaker A: A plus. The only person that has done, like, in the ballpark of that good job is something like Lynn Alton, who, like, he's also a bitcoiner, is interesting. Like, bitcoiners know monetary history, and they tell that story so incredibly well, so well that, like, you know, other communities should be envious ... |
Speaker B: Like, they just, they know it better than most macro people. Yeah. |
Speaker A: And as I was listening to Robert explain this, I was like, oh, my God. And now you're relating this to bitcoins. Like, all of these problems with fiat money, and now what's the solution? Like, bitcoin is the solution. End of story. Like the solve. There's something so beautiful about the simplicity of that n... |
Speaker B: It just triggers, it triggers the dopamine in your reptilian brain very much. |
Speaker A: And so I had that kind of experience throughout it, and I would rate the explanation of money as, like, an a plus part of the episode, and only a seasoned, I think, bitcoiner who really understands this stuff can, can do that justice. Yeah, so that was my first reflection. What else you got? |
Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, right after we were done recording with Robert, I think the first thing I asked him is like, robert, do you meditate? And he goes, yeah. I'm like, yeah, I can tell. He's just got that precision in wording that is obvious from meditators. Legion is also one of these types. Cooper Turlo is also o... |
Speaker A: Well, tell me how you really feel. |
Speaker B: And, like, there's this big magical, like, big. People were talking about identity on bitcoin talk in, like, 2012 because they understood the relationship between the assurances of a signature and a human, a unique human on the other side of that thing. And they're like, okay, cool. Bitcoin can solve identit... |
Speaker A: It does. |
Speaker B: And so that's why we have smart contracts. |
Speaker A: Right? |
Speaker B: And so bitcoin has always been a fantastic ideology, but with a very imperfect execution. And this has been always my main critique of the bitcoiners is, like, there's. They're so resonant with very deep truths about just nature and universal laws, and then they apply all of that learning lessons and funnel ... |
Speaker A: Yeah, I get it. It's a container for a lot of hopes, imagination, desires, and imagination. I guess my take on this is I have much more, also more moderate views than somebody like Robert, I think, on kind of the solution is hard money type of thing. I think we have very much veered far too in the direction ... |
Speaker B: The pendulum. Yeah, yeah. |
Speaker A: Or the bitcoin standard, that, like, all the problems would go away and, like, you know, war would be, you know, no one could fund their wars. |
Speaker B: Fiat culture. |
Speaker A: Yeah. Fiat art would be better, and the music would be better, and, like, our. |
Speaker B: Food would be more nutritious. |
Speaker A: Yeah. I'm like, just like, ugh, that sounds great. But that, again, to me, is why it has the flavorings of almost, like. |
Speaker B: A religious type of compelling. It is very compelling. |
Speaker A: It is very compelling. And I guess I. This is why I like bringing something like Robert on, is because, like, you want to have that perspective, and you want to have that view. I think if you dial all the way in, at least for me, I just. I can't get there. It's just there's not enough there, actually there i... |
Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. |
Speaker A: Which is like, f you. I wouldn't even. Come on bankless. Like, I wouldn't even talk to two shit coiners like Ryan and David. You guys are scammers and grifters. He. He hasn't devolved into that. He has, though, stayed laser focused on bitcoin. It's just like, I had this problem. I learned the problem has exi... |
Speaker B: Yeah, well, we never really asked him about this, like, why his. What his critiques of Ethereum would be, but I'm without, like, intentionally trying to put words in his mouth. |
Speaker A: Why didn't we? |
Speaker B: Because we wanted to be the episode about bitcoin. |
Speaker A: That's right. I don't. I just. I haven't. The answers aren't really satisfying. |
Speaker B: Yeah. And I've gotten general and like, oh, here we go again. Like, when you remember when he had David Marcus on and he was like, yeah, I don't like proof of stake because it's governance. I'm like, it's nothing. Governance, God damn it. |
Speaker A: I know. I just don't even want to kill the vibes by, like, yes, it's killing the vibes. |
Speaker B: It's killing the vibes. But, yeah, this is like the. I'm going to probably assume that if we asked Robert Breedlove about his opinions on Ethereum, he would make very similar noises as Linnalden would. Right. Like, there's some inherent, like, truth about energy that is good and keeps bitcoin grounded. Proof... |
Speaker A: Well, I think there's a couple of elements that really cement this as kind of like a strong narrative for people. One is Satoshi, who just like, left, gone, immaculate conception. You know, this person who set the thing in motion is now gone. I mean, that is just such a fantastic, like, origin story and orig... |
Speaker B: This is even the thing. |
Speaker A: Go listen to Michael Saylor. |
Speaker B: Yeah. This is one of the things that bitcoiners energy, right. Always really grounded about bitcoin in that they really give a fuck about the connection between bitcoin and physics via proof of work. They really care about that relationship, even though it makes no sense to me. Like, if. If you could go two ... |
Speaker A: Why is that? I don't. So my, my, maybe you could help me understand this. So the. The way I think about bitcoin, right, is basically, let. Let's use a proof of stake type terminology, okay? You have a particular type of token. It's called an ASIC, which is a specialized physical piece of equipment that is, y... |
Speaker B: Like what's, well no, you're just, you're just being an ethereum. Like, okay, you ready? You ready for me to put on my bitcoin? |
Speaker A: Yes. |
Speaker B: Okay, this is now. This is now. You're the, you're David and POV crypto and I'm now ck. So I'm not a bitcoiner. |
Speaker A: Hi, Christian. |
Speaker B: You don't want that token to have perfect, you know, immutability over time. It needs to decay. The bitcoin Asic needs to decay. You can, you know, the whole like um, queen of hearts race in. You know, that metaphor is like you gotta keep on sprinting to keep up. |
Speaker A: Yeah. |
Speaker B: And if you do, if you're not going as fast as possible, then you're falling behind. So your asics have to decay as a check to make sure that no bitcoin miner is ever in power for, you know, in infinity. It's a way to make sure that there's always a decay in the centralization of bitcoin miners. Uh, and so al... |
Speaker A: I think that decay is actually the most interesting argument for anything I've heard of proof of work. But also, isn't there, like, there's actually no reason you couldn't implement something like that on the proof of stake side of things. Couldn't you have, like, the stake be like, decay over time? I know E... |
Speaker B: Monetary properties that way, don't you? |
Speaker A: I guess so, yeah. Maybe that is the most interesting argument I've heard for it. But, like, what about the attachment to energy? Does that matter in any way? Because it seems to. The physicality of bitcoin seems to matter. Is it just the idea that it's ungamable? |
Speaker B: Yeah. So energy is a universal constraint of ungamable energy consumption. And it also rewards bitcoin miners to get more and more efficient so that they can add more hash power for cheaper costs to the network. So the efficiency of, the efficiency of security of bitcoin is always up, only it's always becomi... |
Speaker A: What do you think of that argument then? |
Speaker B: It's fantastic. You dismantle it, bro. You're the ethereum. |
Speaker A: Oh, okay. So I think that basically energy is just a cost. And you could abstract that. I mean, I could purchase oil, I could purchase solar energy, I could purchase any type of energy. And it's essentially money, it's just capital. And so it doesn't necessarily have to be energy. Energy is fungible with mon... |
Speaker B: Slashing sounds like the fiat system. Like they're just. You're going to, like, destroy people's property rights, bro. Slashing. Get out of here with that. |
Speaker A: I am. So let's take off our hats. Like, I am capital. |
Speaker B: You can mince capital out of thin air. Energy is truth. Energy is physics. |
Speaker A: See, that's the thing that just doesn't work for me. It just never made sense to me. I'm kind of glad that proof of work still exists. Or just in case, like, I'm missing something, or just in case, like, you know, they're right or something like that. Like, I'm glad that experiment is also playing out in par... |
Speaker B: Yeah, the bitcoin path and the shitcoin path. |
Speaker A: I don't get it. The energy piece, I don't actually get what else from this episode was interesting to you. I know we didn't get into the critiques, and so I think some bankless listeners would probably be frustrated at that. And let me just say, the point of this episode was not to just be like, well, but Ro... |
Speaker B: Security is made up on feeds, bro. |
Speaker A: Right. That's another thing that is very difficult for me to kind of understand from a bitcoin perspective. |
Speaker B: But the bitcoin perspective is that the bitcoin. Bitcoin. Hyper bitcoin. Hyper bitcoinizes the world. And so the unit of account is bitcoin. And bitcoin is so incredibly valuable that this midgen of fees that are being paid are worth it because that it's the unit of account of the currency of the whole globe... |
Speaker A: I always find it interesting, David, that you just, like, you just don't own bitcoin. And, like, why? Like, a lot of people in crypto, they own at least some bitcoin. I guess. Me, like Anthony Sasano, he doesn't. I don't think he owns any bitcoin. |
Speaker B: I don't think he does anymore. |
Speaker A: But, like, you just have never felt the need to go back in time and go purchase some bitcoin to, like, kind of diversify out of your, what, primarily ETH investment and other shitcoin investments that you own. |
Speaker B: Yeah. |
Speaker A: Why? |
Speaker B: Well, I think a lot of people that I know have bitcoin that have bitcoin came into crypto with bitcoin via bitcoin. And so they kind of have it as like, maybe there's like a first love effect also, maybe there's like some capital gains taxes they don't want to pay, so they have, like, momentum there. I never... |
Speaker A: Like, like, in general. |
Speaker B: In general, yeah. |
Speaker A: Why not just be bullish on the things? |
Speaker B: Why not just be bullish? Like, if you have two assets. I'm like, I'm more bullish on this one than I am on this one. Then you should do that. I'll just buy the one I'm more bullish on. I don't really, I don't have to overthink it. |
Speaker A: Imagine being wrong. Like, that's not. Imagine that. Yeah. |
Speaker B: You just be right all the time. |
Speaker A: Yeah. |
Speaker B: It works. |
Speaker A: Yeah, it's great. Great advice coming out of bank list. Just be right and you don't have to think about diversification. |
Speaker B: That's exactly it. |
Speaker A: The key is just to be right. |
Speaker B: Yeah. |
Speaker A: Yeah. |
Speaker B: Well, back when I was buying bitcoin, when the ETH bitcoin, or, excuse me, buying ether when the ETH bitcoin ratio was zero three. I've been right ever since. Although it's been a little bit less right in the last month or so. |
Speaker A: I just. So one thing I actually feel, and some bitcoin listeners may get upset at this or may completely disagree, but. But I think that the torch has actually been passed to Ethereum to carry on this legacy of bankless money system. Right? |
Speaker B: Yeah. Even though bitcoin is number one in market cap. Like, the bitcoiners know Ethereum has the momentum well. |
Speaker A: But the reason is a couple fold. Like, one is I get very worried about bitcoin transactions and they haven't solved things like oFAC sanctions. Right. Like miners have lists and they can sanction transactions too, and they do from time to time. And I feel like that is not something that the bitcoin community... |
Speaker B: Three, maybe three. |
Speaker A: Three transactions per second to be a peer to peer cash system for the globe. So what ends up happening? Well, you actually have to do the pay layer in coinbase or in a kraken or some centralized exchange, and you have to do the lending because you don't have defi in a blockfire celsius, right. And so you be... |
Speaker B: It's Internet gold. It's gold transfers. |
Speaker A: It's gold transfers, like settlement just for big whales, basically, and large institutions. And that, to me, is not the full manifestation of what crypto can actually do in the world. It's not the full bankless vision, certainly. And so I feel like they've given up on that. I also feel like the security bud... |
Speaker B: The security of bitcoin, ethereum is six. |
Speaker A: X or something like that. When you talk about six x security. |
Speaker B: The economic security is bitcoin while being one third of the market cap. |
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