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Collection for podcasts • 511 items • Updated • 2
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A | Hey, guys. Welcome to the episode after the episode with Hernando de Soto. This is our episode on the power of property rights. This is the guy that wrote the book on the power of property rights. I read this book after our episode with Marc Andreessen, where he recommended it. |
B | Are you sure? I think you recommended this book to. |
A | Me, but way before we did that episode, maybe. Yeah, I don't know. Everything's blurring together. I did it on audio, so, you know, when you listen to a tough book reading, by the way, it was really tough, but I absorbed enough to give me the scaffolding of wow. You know, basically, the. The way you unlock the way capi... |
B | There's this podcast that I never ended up recording. It would have been like a David takes, for example, you talked about David Graeber. David Graeber recite his book the first 5000 years as where money comes from. Anthropologically, like, historically, where does money come from? Did I say debt? Where does money come... |
A | Yeah, another term for that. And by the way, I think that's the bull case for bureaucracy. Right, right. But it basically tells you why these bureaucratic systems come to be and tells you that they're not completely useless. I mean, some people will look at, like, government and just be like, why do we need government?... |
B | It's a little bit, it's a little bit like proof of work, right? Like proof of work. We waste the work. Yeah, the work is waste of waste. We get output. We do get output. |
A | Yeah. I mean, so another word for that, like that output is consensus. And it's very interesting that Hernando actually uses that term, because what you actually need is consensus on who owns what. Like, for property rights system to function. Right. Who owns what. And do you have also settlement assurances? And if the... |
B | Wait, is he 83? Is that right? I can't, every time I look up Hernando Sado h. I get the conquistador who died at 42. |
A | Economist. |
B | Economist Hernando de Soto. |
A | I feel like 82. |
B | Sorry, 82. Okay. I thought it was older than that. |
A | Go on. 83? |
B | Yeah. I mean, like, dode, like Hernandez de Soto. Straight up legend, bro. Like, bankless podcast episode hall of Fame. Like, so glad we did this. Yeah, it took us a bit to get here, but, you know, his house is beautiful. I like his house. His garden is amazing. |
A | He was showing pictures. I don't know how well that will translate for the podcast listeners. |
B | They were pictured the rustling of the paper that you heard if you were just listening, or the paper that you half saw if you showed it on the YouTube. It's just like, it's him meeting, like, heads of and showing him shaking hands with heads of state. And, you know, he's had, like, a rough time, like getting meetings t... |
A | Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, his book came out in the year 2000, right? And so I guess maybe it's been a while. It's one of those books, like the sovereign individual that just, like, stands the test of time, too. I thought this concept was really interesting that we sort of mined and tapped into in the episode, which is ... |
B | Tokenize the world. Yeah. |
A | He wasn't wrong. |
B | I mean, he didn't know what he meant. |
A | Yeah. Okay, well, do any of us really know what we mean? I mean, he's just. |
B | I do. |
A | Okay. David knows what he means. But this idea that I guess property rights systems are an expression of power projection, maybe, or like, civilization or. What's that book that I've never read but you constantly quote at bactermies, seeing, like, a state. |
B | Yeah. So seeing like a state. Mystery of capital and utopia of rules. This is like the triple overlap venn diagram of these systems that blanket the earth. |
A | And seeing like a state focuses some of the like on what the state as an organism tries to do. And it tries to serialize everything. Basically all of the humans and all of the property and all of the assets. We want to serialize you so that we can kind of marshal you and we can project power and we can organize you. An... |
B | Your freedoms are the yield farm of a nation state. We are like the whole neo in the little matrix, getting farmed out of his energy. And there's fields of them. Yeah, that's the hyperbolic version of seeing a state. Humans are just extracted for their energy. But then the benefit of it is it's like, well, nation state... |
A | That's what part of America's value proposition is today. Why do people from all over the world register in a Delaware LLC or Delaware C Corp? Right. The nation state of the US, and in particular the state of Delaware, has fantastic corporate law, you know, fantastic precedent, like all of the debates have already been... |
B | Let China and United States just, like, duke it out. What's that meme of, like, two people fighting, and then the third one is just, like, in front of them, like, throwing a sign. Yeah. I mean, I will admit that of the. Of the three books I've mentioned seeing, like, a state utopia of rules and her and mystery of capit... |
A | Why are you. David will only admit that during the debrief. |
B | That's only a debrief take. I've read more than half of each of them, but just likes to talk about them. |
A | Well, you know what's even worse is I talk about them as if I've read them through you. Oh, yeah. Yeah. You haven't read them. |
B | You started seeing, like, a state. |
A | Apparently, my foundation is shaky because the guy I was referencing who told me all about these books hasn't even read the freaking. |
B | Zach, you're referencing me, and I'm like, I've read half of it. |
A | Yeah. Wow. It's more self referencing than bitcoin. He also had kind of, like another, I guess, sub point. What is capital? When I asked, I loved his answer. |
B | What is capital? |
A | I want to clip that. It was incredibly coherent. He was like, can you see capital? No. Can you see energy, though? No. You see its impact on the world. It's like capital is back to another book that we quote very often. Now, I have actually read David, and I'm calling you question whether you've read it. Is the book sa... |
B | I've read that, like, four times. |
A | Promise me. You promise? Okay. |
B | For sure. |
A | Well, I mean, that's back to the idea that what is capital? It's a symbol. It's a myth. It's a shared narrative that we instantiate in kind of social consensus. Again, property is very much. It's similar to money in that respect. And again, money is a subset of property. So actually, maybe property rights is the big st... |
B | Is a real thing. |
A | Yeah, capital is the real thing. Money is a type of capital. It's not the only type. And in fact, it. If you look at all the capital in the us financial system, even the thing that we call money is, like, 5% base money, 95%. These other things, other assets, other instruments based on the base money supply. And then, l... |
B | You know what my favorite form of capital is? |
A | What's your favorite form of capital, you capitalist social capital. |
B | You know? Want to know why? |
A | Why? |
B | Because it has the strongest settlement assurances. So, like, if I have, like, money, capital can be stolen from me, can even be stolen from me if it's, like, my private key with, like, the five dollar rent attack, for example. But my social capital, if I lose my social capital, it's because of a choice I made, a right... |
A | Not necessarily, David. |
B | Okay, give me the. Give me a. I mean, have you. |
A | Ever been on Twitter? I can't wait to spread a rumor about my co host David Hoffman on Twitter. |
B | Yeah, but it spread and projekt to the truth. |
A | Destroy his social capital. |
B | Yeah, yeah. But, like, ideally, in an ideal world, if somebody's spreading a false rumor about me, eventually the truth will come out. Like, not all the times. That's naive to say that's an assured thing, but there's something nice and pure about social capital is that. Yeah, it's very, very pure because there's no, li... |
A | Yeah, I'm kind of messing with you. I like, I think there's, like, the social media, right? It's just like, what you're actually saying is your social capital is your reputation. And, you know, obviously, reputation. |
B | Your reputation can pay dividends in many, many, many ways. |
A | Yeah. And to the extent our consensus system for social capital, which is, like, what everyone thinks, essentially, to the extent that is tainted by lies, fake news, misinformation, or something by social media, that's just a reflection on the consensus system for social capital is kind of broken, but, yeah, that is va... |
B | I don't know if you can tokenize social capital. That's possible. |
A | Well, I mean, that goes to the question of, like, what can we actually tokenize in crypto? I mean, I like, I think physical. |
B | Physical property the most ip maybe. |
A | Can you. So I'm on I'm so bought into, obviously, everything digital that we can kind of, like, if it's a digital thing, it can be tokenized, right? And it will be. And that's very Internet native. But how much can our titling system of ethereum, for instance, how many of these real world assets can actually tokenize a... |
B | I would say, yeah, like, the Leviathan. The digital Leviathan concept is like, we have the Thomas Hobbes Leviathan, which is that it forms the state via the stick, right? Like, if you violate the social contract, you go to jail. And then all of a sudden, we have nation states because they all are coordinated by this fa... |
A | Yeah. |
B | Like, there's churches that live in harmony inside of larger structures. |
A | What do you think of his take that? Hey, when you pitch crypto, don't pitch your spectral of assets. That's a complete distraction. |
B | I think we've learned that one. |
A | Yeah. It's hard not to, though. It's the one thing we got. |
B | Bitcoin's 21 million guys. It's so good. Ultrasound money. |
A | I do think that there is some opportunity to figure out where the unique value proposition of. Of crypto really lies with respect to tokenizing real world assets that are outside of, like, you have stable coins and bonds and things like this. And I just. I wonder how much of that will be dependent on existing legal str... |
B | This is why, like, this is why bitcoiners are so bullish on, like, central banks buying bitcoin, or my. Or in states having mining operations. You know, maybe not Kazakhstan, but mining. |
A | Or by bitcoin mining in this bitcoin. |
B | Mining, whereas, like, it's different when the state does it. Right. Like, when this. When a nation state is doing it, that's a big deal. And so, like, it would have to come if we want to, like, tokenize peruvian mines. The only people that have that power is Peru. Like, the government of Peru, the nation state of Peru... |
A | Yeah. And that's a nation state peruvian settlement, basically, that is just an iou in our, you know, so the value proposition is more surface area. There is, I guess my observation, I don't know, maybe. Maybe this could work out in a different way. Yeah. What else did you get from that episode. Do you like his answer ... |
B | Yeah. I've got friends that have very different perceptions of the word capitalism than what I have. |
A | I mean, I have a. I have a mixed perception in my mind, too. Well, yeah. So I have a different perception of food than maybe you do. |
B | Also true. Yeah. |
A | Yeah. What else? |
B | I don't know, man. I think it was good. I think it was great. |
A | All right, guys, well, this has been the property rights system debrief. I appreciate you guys. Thanks for subscribing. Bye. Cheers. |
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