podcasts
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Collection for podcasts • 511 items • Updated • 2
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A | Hey, guys, one more geek, bro. |
B | We've been in the studio for so long. |
A | I know. This could be a quick debrief episode. Bankless nation. So we just finished recording our longest episode far with Dom and Mike on the Ethereum endgame. I think it's worth it, though. Who else is going to get to this level of detail with what I think is legitimately one of the world's most important computers b... |
B | It says quantum computer. |
A | Mean. It's not, like, happening in Google Labs somewhere, right? It's happening out in the open. And what's super about it, to your point? It's like property rights, man. Property rights layer. We're creating money. It's Internet finance. It's the Internet of value. It's incredibly important to the next step stage in t... |
B | I should think, maybe just a thread to pull on here. Quantum computers don't do the same kind of computation that normal computers do. They don't. They're not just faster computers. They unlock a new plane of math. They do math differently. So it's not just like our quantum computers are faster computers. We're not loc... |
A | That's right. Well, it's like, quantum computers are bad at a lot of things. Like, if you throw traditional programming, like, its way, it sucks. You're better off with a standard model computer. But for a particular type of computing that requires superpositions and all of this complexity, it cannot be beaten. |
B | And this is the same for Ethereum? |
A | Similar to Ethereum, yeah. It just cannot be beaten as a property rights system. Yeah. So, wow. I mean, that was comprehensive. I don't have anything to add that we didn't uncover the. Are there any things that we left, any corners of this roadmap you feel like we left unprobed? |
B | I think that's a question for the EF people, the researchers out there, not for the consumers of these interviews. I have a different perspective that I think our skill and our. The way that we can add to this, like, conversation is really just kind of understanding this, the thing, as a pattern. Like, even. Cause I th... |
A | Yeah, that's a good, you know, that emphasis really is on the asset side of things, right? And you're, you're saying, like, and if you distill the whole thing, it is kind of like an asset. And would also like, this thing is also consuming cryptography and spitting out a censorship resistant computer. Like, that's the a... |
B | You're really just trying to hammer on, just like, the fact what of what this roadmap is gives you the security that you have in the bet on the future that you've made. And Dom kept on using this phrase during the episode, like, it's just so elegant. The roadmap is so beautiful. And I think maybe to extrapolate what I ... |
A | Yeah, I think, yeah, I agree with that. And look, if the world, if we build this network and we get through the roadmap and the world doesn't care or doesn't value it, which is like censorship resistant, like, transactions, but that's not. |
B | Them not caring about Ethereum, that's them not caring about crypto. |
A | And you know what I'm fine with? |
B | If that's the outcome, fine. |
A | It's basically fine. It's like, well, we delivered. And part of what I feel like our job is, or bankless job is to talk about the long term, of why we should care about censorship resistant, why we should build on stronger foundations than the foundations we now have in place that are less corruptible and that are more... |
B | I've always said that, like, the most bearish thing for bitcoin is fiscal and monetary responsibility by the Fed and the government. And so, like maybe the most bearish thing for Ethereum is like responsible governance, aligned web, two companies, a good healthy future for humanity. And if the end, I'm not going to be ... |
A | No, that's a great thing. And I think that even in that case, it will be the case very much that systems like bitcoin and Ethereum have kind of like provided that counter ballast to like be a check on the web, two companies or the central banks. Right? So, like, it's probably going to be some sort of mixed outcome here... |
B | They don't decentralize proofs in the same way that we in the Ethereum world have checks on block builders. They just implement checks. They don't decentralize, they just implement checks. |
A | Well, but that, I'm kind of like almost using that synonymously. Right. It's kind of like same, same, right. Or just like call it, call it in the diagram, it's called anti fraud and anti censorship armor, basically. So you just plus up this armor. I think there are paths for big blockchains to get there too, possibly. ... |
B | But I think this brings up, and. |
A | We'Ll add this armor, this brings up. |
B | The conversation of path dependency, because like, to me, the end destination, the end game, what that means is that your system gets to exist until the end of time. As in, you are sustainable. Like, you don't die. And that is a requirement for existing in a multi generational context. But how you got there qualitative... |
A | Well, yeah, I hear that argument. I get that argument. I think that some would argue, I think, like, our friend over at block works, Mikey Pilido, is one of these that rather than endgame, he phrases like convergence, basically, right? Yeah, it's like we're still sort of converging to the same thing. And I think some o... |
B | I don't know if Mike would. I've definitely. I definitely had a conversation with, like, Mike. I put out this tweet where he said Cosmos got the end game totally right, and he's talking about, like, the whole app chain vision. And then I just, like, went into its DM's, like, yeah, but, like, they just started at the en... |
A | Well, this is. This is why, like, the way I view things. Cause, like, my take is a chain. Like Solana, for instance, specializes in kind of, like, execution, acquires so much state and a ton of value, and then eventually, like, starts orbiting around the sun, which is like the settlement layer. Right. And becomes a rol... |
B | The monolith, turns itself into a module. |
A | It's kind of still my prediction over the very long term. And that would get you to the same place, too, where you have centralized production and you still have decentralized validation and strong anti censorship protection. So Vitalik's endgame post, I think, has held up very well. It's still not fully played out, of... |
B | Of six more years in this decade, and then maybe we'll be most. |
A | Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's cool. I mean, the unexplored territories are like all the Justin Drake quantum math type stuff that he's. |
B | The unexplored territories, or how the centralized block production weaves together the fragmentation, that's still like. And that is an extra protocol area of research, which is why it's not found in the roadmap. |
A | Do you think that the roadmap will ever be finished? |
B | I don't know. |
A | Do you think there's always more that will just kind of pop up? What do you think of that? I think one episode coming from this that I still want to absolutely do is, what do we do about a percentage validator? Like percentage staking? |
B | Yeah, because Mike implied that we're going to change the economic policy of Ethereum. He implied that we are going to change it lower, which would align with every other change we've ever done, which he implied we're going to increase the money ness of ETH because lower issuance is more money ness. |
A | Well, but, yeah, but basically, the way I've heard this talked about in concrete terms, again, I haven't gone into the deal. You just max cap the amount of validators in the network. Right. So if you do that, then there's like a, you know how Eth beeka chain rewards asymptote to kind of zero? |
B | It doesn't hit zero. It does asymptote, but it doesn't hit zero. |
A | Exactly. But if you, if you sort of cap that and there can't be more. |
B | I don't think we want the cap because the cap, the large scale institutions, because if you're caps, you would just put your ether into the lido that so you can get the stakes. So, like, he's, he's advocating for any problem. So uncapped. But just like, if you do stake, you are actually skidding. Uh, you're losing ethe... |
A | Yeah. Also very weird. Like, this isn't where I think you could, you could hear, you were already hearing it in the background. They were screaming, uh, strong bitcoin maximalist, saying, this sounds like a central bank you're talking about. Negative. |
B | Yeah, but they say that. Valid theory. And they're like, I've never listened to them. Yeah. Monetary policy and issuance curves are just part of nature. Like, it's not anything. Just like the government's doing it now. Protocols are doing it. |
A | The difference is algorithm, like, the difference is twofold. One is, for me, is you do it algorithmically. Right, but like, I think a strong bitcoiner would say, but like, every single time you change it, you kind of reset the clock. |
B | But then, but then we say, like, every single time is changing, we are changing it into induced further scarcity, not more printing. |
A | That's what we have been saying since 2018. |
B | But we've also won that fight, I declare. |
A | You think so? If you've declared it there. And shall we declare maybe this debrief done for sure, that 3 hours recording session. |
B | My God. |
A | Thanks for listening. See you. |
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