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Speaker A: Hey, bankless nation. This is a special episode, actually, an interview we recorded with Guy from Coin Bureau about a month ago. So some of the prices, some of those details might be dated, but I think we talked a lot about the bankless story, David, so we thought you guys would enjoy it during the holidays. |
Speaker B: Importantly, this is an interview of us by Coinhero. This is not a Bankless podcast, but we are putting it on the Bankless podcast feed. |
Speaker A: Yeah. So I hope you guys enjoy. As usual, I was shocked that he did a podcast. I still, to this day, have no idea why SBF came on a podcast with an $8 billion hole on his balance sheet. |
Speaker C: Hello, everyone, and welcome back to Coin Bureau. We have two very special guests with us today. I am deeply honored to welcome none other than Ryan, Sean Adams and David Hoffman, better known as Bankless, one of the best crypto podcasts out there. An invaluable source of information for not just all things ... |
Speaker B: Thanks for the kind words, guy. |
Speaker A: Yeah, it's a pleasure to be here. |
Speaker C: It's great to finally meet you. Like I say, I've been listening to you guys for years now, and you guys have had so many incredible conversations with some of the top names in the space, and there's no way we've got time to sort of dig into all of those today. But I do want to get your thoughts on a few sort... |
Speaker A: You want to start, David? |
Speaker B: Yeah, sure. I think to start things off, Ryan and I are definitely podcast people. I would say we both are big podcast consumers, and I don't really know how anyone would start a podcast without having that as their foundation. Like, first we enjoy podcasts, and then we are like, okay, we could. We could sta... |
Speaker A: Yeah. Like, David, how much, how much, how much podcast listing do you do versus YouTube, would you say? |
Speaker B: Yeah, like, three to one ratio. And it used to. It used to be a ten to one. It's gotten. YouTube has increased lately, and I would say that's been on track with bankless emphasis on YouTube. Like, we've nailed the podcast game relatively early, but the YouTube game is still, like, new to us. |
Speaker A: We stuck at YouTube. |
Speaker B: Yeah, we stuck at YouTube. We're working on it. But we started first as podcast consumers and then podcasters, and that's really where bankless came to be. It filled this niche in the early days of Ethereum, where there were a lot of people that had a lot of shared ideas and understanding about what this Eth... |
Speaker A: Yeah, I think the perspective at that time, 2019, when we kicked things off, was we had just come out of 2017. And, guy, you remember this, right? The highs of 2018, the elation all the way, and we're going to change the world. And crypto is everything all the way to the lows of 2018. 2019 and the absolute d... |
Speaker C: Yeah. Well, because, I mean, you guys have been. You guys have been working together for so long now, and, you know, you gel so well together. I think that's part of the appeal, isn't it? It's like, it's not just two guys who really care about what they're talking about and what they're into, but also just l... |
Speaker A: Yeah, I was actually going to ask you, guy, because I think you do this really well with your YouTube channel and kind of your platform, but it seems to be there can be a challenge with anyone who is in crypto media with presenting candy to the audience versus presenting vegetables. Right. We like to say at ... |
Speaker C: It's tricky. It's a good question. It's that idea of calories or sweeties. Healthy calories, healthy candy, as you say, it's tricky. I think one of the things that we found that helped us grow was the realization that crypto is no longer in a bubble. And I think this was really sort of coming out sort of 202... |
Speaker A: I mean, we try to balance it out a little bit, but we will, like, still do a show on an entire Eip. Like, we did a show called Dank Sharding and, like, we didn't even. |
Speaker B: No, no blob space. |
Speaker A: So, like. But as it can't be all of our episodes, that's how we. We just do a portfolio. Right? So you get some vegetables mixed in with everything else. |
Speaker B: I think that's where we've kind of settled is there's just an extreme amount of variety on bankless. So you get the one and a half hour long, very technical deep dives with Justin Drake. And at the end of that, you end up saying, like, I can't really regurgitate anything, but I still kind of got it anyways. ... |
Speaker A: And if you feel like that, that's how david and I feel. |
Speaker B: And then, and then there's, like, the 45 minutes shorter forum episodes where we're specifically talking about market movements and, like, kind of doing the dopamine content that everyone in crypto pays attention to, whether you're, you know, an Adiq degen who just got in or you're Justin Drake. Like, one of... |
Speaker A: There's plenty of market drama. Isn't there always all the time in. |
Speaker B: Crypto, I would say in. In the YouTube game. And this is something that we identified pretty early at bankless, I would say. We didn't. Our. The first podcast episodes were no video, just because we didn't have that set up. The technology wasn't there, and we weren't very good at, like, we could have done it... |
Speaker A: Yeah, but I. David is gas and I am brakes. Yeah, we're saying contrast, too. |
Speaker B: Yeah, but you have. The difference is in you and me, which is, like, the gas and brakes, and, like, you're a business background, I'm a psych background. But these are actually complementary, not like they don't conflict. And so, like, the bankless brand just makes people, like, feel things at times, sometim... |
Speaker A: It's very negative things. |
Speaker B: But, like, the idea is, like, the. The people do feel stuff, and we have, like, leaned into that a little bit. |
Speaker A: It's not an apathetic brand, by the way. You could tell that David and I are still podcasters because we have these big ass headphones on. We were just talking about. David just sent me. |
Speaker B: Yeah, I want to. I want to get the invisible headphones. I want to get. |
Speaker A: At that point, you'll know that we are trying to like more with YouTube when we get the invisible headphones. |
Speaker C: That's the moment you transition. The headphones come off, and suddenly. Suddenly you're a youtuber, and it's all good. It's all good. |
Speaker A: Yeah. Is it better on the other side, guy? Is it better to be on the YouTube side? |
Speaker C: It's okay. It's okay. It has its moments. It can get a bit weird as well. People can. |
Speaker A: Well, you guys deal with some characters on YouTube that I just don't. I don't think exist in the podcast game. Like, there are some absolutely, like, crypto YouTube personalities. |
Speaker C: I would say there certainly are. Sometimes you just find yourself kind of, what is going on? Is this real? Am I actually seeing this? Am I actually. Am I actually a part of this world? Yes, it would seem that I am. Good Lord. It can be very strange. There's never a dull moment. But yeah, I mean, going back t... |
Speaker B: We're working on it. Our team is corralling us over there and they're doing a good job. |
Speaker C: Okay. You just have to lose it at some point and just give over. Give over to the nuttiness of it all. You'll enjoy it. I wanted to, so, like I said earlier, you know, there are so many great episodes that you guys have done. I want to take you back in time, if I may, to sort of just over a year ago, because... |
Speaker B: Oh, yeah, certainly. |
Speaker C: Yeah. What did you make of it all at the time? Did it feel as surreal as it kind of came across to listen to? |
Speaker B: Yes, definitely. And there's. If you go. If you look at. I mean, only we can see it, because we only. We have the back end to the particular episode, the analytics, but you can see the chart of viewers, concurrent viewers, who are watching the live stream. Like, it spikes up, as all livestreams do, and then ... |
Speaker A: I think it was. And I think that this was part of the unveiling. So let's remember, go back in history, rewind a bit further. So this happened in the end of October 2022. But if you rewind to January 2022, the three smartest people in crypto were do Kwan, SPF, and Suzu. Okay? These were the legends. These we... |
Speaker B: Well, we didn't yet know that. SBF didn't shut up. Like, he had. He had just entered that arc of I talked. |
Speaker A: He does not have the shut up gene. And I think we saw that in court. He decided to testify on his own behalf. Like, he just. He's got something that most human beings don't have. And so the reason he came on was because he was pushing forward this anti DeFi legislation in DC behind closed doors in a way that... |
Speaker B: Compromising faustian bargain that was SPF. |
Speaker A: It was so clear even at the time. And we didn't know that he was short $8 billion, but we knew he was short, like, values. We knew he was short, like, the reason we're all in crypto. |
Speaker B: And I think Sam articulated, like, I am here not for decentralization. |
Speaker A: I'm a mercenary. |
Speaker B: I'm a mercenary. |
Speaker A: I'm just going to make as much money as possible, and then I'm going to give it away. |
Speaker B: And I think people were okay with that until he stepped into Congress, until he, like, started to play into the regulatory arbitrage game. |
Speaker A: Anyway, the other interesting thing about that episode, David, is, like, when we were going through it, SPF seemed, like, shaken during the time. If you watch, he was unable to articulate in the same way that he usually is. |
Speaker B: He started to fall apart. |
Speaker A: He started to fall apart. And. |
Speaker B: I speak English, but I'm guessing if you didn't speak English and you watched that episode, you would understand that. Like, yo, that the Eric guy won the debate. Like, you don't have to understand the words that were said to understand that. Like, Sam Bankenfree just, like, fell apart. |
Speaker A: I don't know. What did you think of it, guys? So at the time, of course, the entire industry didn't know that what, what SPF was up to behind the scenes. But, yeah, what did you think of that when you were trying to assemble that bed? |
Speaker C: Yeah, it was like, you know, the more that it went on and the more, you know, because Eric just sort of killed him with logic and clarity, like you said, didn't he? It was so. It was so clinical and it was sort of like, I don't. I. You know, when, you know, when you sort of feel like. You feel on edge, even ... |
Speaker A: So glad we did that episode and that it's on the record. I'm glad on behalf of bankless, but I'm also glad on behalf of the crypto industry, because I think I, after that, crypto has been painted in such a light that it's full of sbfs and scammers and people who don't take accountability for their actions. A... |
Speaker B: He was not. Wasn't our guy. |
Speaker A: He was not one of us. He wasn't us. |
Speaker C: Yeah, I think it's so important. It is like, people outside of crypto think that the whole industry just sort of exists to scam people or whatever. I think it's really important to have a record of that, to have a record of people in the industry going, hang on a sec. No, what's going on here? You have to ex... |
Speaker A: Well, absolutely. And I don't know if you read a post from Balaji Srinivasan who makes this, this point. So it wasn't just that bankless episode. It was crypto media who actually, like, broke the story. It was like that coindesk article from the reporter who revealed the balance sheet, and then it was crypto... |
Speaker C: Yeah. And I think, well, it's so important to pass that lesson on, isn't it, to go look? Because that's another thing I wanted to ask you guys, just on the subject of that interview. Do you think crypto has kind of, as an industry, has kind of learned its lessons from that whole saga? Are we, are we older an... |
Speaker B: I think this last 2022, the year of just terrible price action and blow ups and fraudsters being revealed as fraudsters, that was pretty unprecedented in crypto. We had some pretty undesirable behavior in the downfall of 2018 in that same kind of era. But it was not at the same level of the gaping hole that ... |
Speaker A: Yeah. The way I would answer that is we will make the same mistakes just in different ways. I think that if you look at the parallels between icos and all of these futility tokens and all of this money that was raised in 2017, that was the mistake that was the cardinal sin of the 2017 bull market. And then i... |
Speaker C: Yeah, I was listening to that episode that you did with Morgan yesterday. And can I just say to anyone watching, if you listen to anything before the bull market starts. You should listen to, to Ryan and David speaking with Morgan Hauser. It was such a good episode. Obviously the psychology of money is a won... |
Speaker A: And he just talks about the timeless principles of life and investing things that don't change. |
Speaker C: Yeah, it reminded me of something my grandmother used to say. She always used to say like, if something is easily got, then it isn't worth having. And I think I really felt that with listening to that discussion. It's like, yeah, it has to be hard because as you said, we started from zero, we started from Sa... |
Speaker A: Yeah, I completely agree. I don't think there's an easy path here. The volatility is the price of entry. That's another thing that Morgan Hausel said. If you want something to five x, the reverse of that is you have to be comfortable with an asset losing 80% of its value. Thats the trade off that we make. An... |
Speaker C: Yeah, well, of course, because that was the point he made, wasnt it? About this idea of people years ago trying to figure out how to stop recessions. Its like, well, you cant. If you never had a recession that would create the perfect conditions for an absolutely massive recession. |
Speaker A: Well, I just think, I imagine how much worse our industry would actually be if we didn't have 2022 and we still had an algo stablecoin that was rather than 30 billion, it was now 300 billion. Okay. And then actual retail, non crypto retail got involved because some fintech app started offering it. And we had... |
Speaker B: Yeah, we did clean up all of the mess in 2022, in 18 months. I mean, it was one year of time between the fall of FTX and Sam, like, being charged guilty. I remember one of the very early takes that I heard in the middle of 2022, I think right after the fall of FTX, was from a friend of our pod, Nick Carter. ... |
Speaker A: Well, I'm actually curious from you guys. Are you surprised that this is happening so soon? I mean, there's an element of me as, like, this is my third cycle here, and I'm just like, wow, we've recovered from that. |
Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. And, like, I do feel like that. |
Speaker A: You said it at some level, I'm like, it was only a year ago. It was only a year ago when we had that conversation with SBF. And so much has happened, and now you're saying we've healed and we're back to bull market. Like, too soon. |
Speaker B: It seems fast, but also, it's the same exact time as last cycle. And I think time just goes faster now because we're older. We've done. We've seen this before. |
Speaker A: Okay. I know first cyclers are like, what are you guys talking about? We went through so much pain that last. |
Speaker B: I don't know. |
Speaker A: I'm just like, wow, that was quick. |
Speaker C: Yeah, well, you guys were talking about this the other day, weren't you? Because you're like, there's always that. There's always that thing in the back of your mind. It's like, okay, so it goes in cycles, but is it really gonna. Are we really gonna have another cycle? Is this actually gonna be that easy? |
Speaker A: If everyone thinks it's gonna go in cycle, it's not gonna go into the cycle, right? In a four year cycle. |
Speaker C: Yeah. And then it's like going back to. |
Speaker B: The Morgan household thing, right? If it's. If it's easy, it's not worth doing. It's like, yeah, the four year cycles, if you. If they really play out that way, that's super easy. But come on, you had to live through 2022, and 2023 wasn't great either. Like, those weren't. That was hard. That was a hard thin... |
Speaker A: That was hard. You guys earned it. Hey, if you're still listening to Coin Bureau, if you're still listening to bankless, it's likely you were. You lived through all of that, and I feel like you have. You've got veteran status now. All right? You are going to be the OG for future generations of crypto. I mean... |
Speaker C: I couldn't agree more. I couldn't agree more. And it's like that OG status is kind of hard earned, isn't it? You really have to walk through the fire to get that. And, I mean, I guess you look back to some of the trio, like Eric Voorhees, who was there sort of almost at the beginning and went through Mount G... |
Speaker A: Yeah, we've come such a long, I mean, that was a magic, the gathering, like card trading exchange that converted to a crypto exchange. It's like we have come so far since then, we have real companies here. Ten years. I mean, it's not a long time. |
Speaker C: No, we have, yeah, we have real companies. We will have ETF's before too long. It's crazy to think touching on the ETF's. Obviously you guys are not solely focused on Ethereum, but ethereum is a large part of bankless focus. So can I just get your take on where Ethereum is at the moment? Obviously it's been ... |
Speaker A: Are you ready to cope, David? You cope. |
Speaker B: Yeah. Like you said, ethereum always kind of occupies this uncanny space in which it never really seems to be popular. I think from January of 2021 to May of 2021, Ethereum was in vogue for the moment of time in which I thought, okay, finally it's getting the recognition it's deserved. Like Defi is now being... |
Speaker A: You know what movies that from? That's from David. Yeah. Tangled. |
Speaker B: Tangled. |
Speaker A: Tangled, yeah, sure. All right, fun fact. |
Speaker B: Yeah. And so, like, Ethereum occupies the space where, yeah, it's getting the Ether ETF because of its size, but then also just the ambitiousness of the roadmap is too long to be realized and catch that dopamine hit of people in the short term investing cycle. That is a bull market to be interested in that. ... |
Speaker A: So I guess that's good cope, David. |
Speaker B: Good, thanks. |
Speaker A: Here's my cope on it. So, first of all, I think things in Ethereum are going just fine. I think it is executing incredibly well from a fundamentals perspective. And you just look at the growth of layer twos. And also it's doing pretty well from an institutional narrative perspective. There will probably be t... |
Speaker B: Three year bear market in Defi tokens. |
Speaker A: And let's talk about the reality. Very few Defi tokens are more than governance tokens today, okay? Very few of them actually pay back token holders with on chain profits. Very few of them have actual solid fundamentals. So a lot of the expectations that was pulled forward at that time turned out to not be t... |
Speaker B: It totally doesn't matter. |
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