diff --git "a/data/M2LdN3qh0hc_001/metadata.json" "b/data/M2LdN3qh0hc_001/metadata.json" new file mode 100644--- /dev/null +++ "b/data/M2LdN3qh0hc_001/metadata.json" @@ -0,0 +1,75051 @@ +{ + "sample_id": "M2LdN3qh0hc_001", + "video_id": "M2LdN3qh0hc", + "video_title": "Alles Schwarz: Depressiv nach der Geburt | no stigma!", + "chapter_title": "Julia's Story", + "chapter_start_sec": 112.0, + "chapter_end_sec": 1819.0, + "audio_file": "001 Julia's Story.mp3", + "srt_file": "001 Julia's Story.srt", + "language_code": "de", + "diarize": true, + "elevenlabs_model_id": "scribe_v2", + "created_at_utc": "2026-03-25T16:30:52.094163+00:00", + "transcript_text": "Hallo und danke, dass wir bei dir sein dürfen. Gerne. Wir haben heute früh 'ne schöne Reise von, von München hierher zu dir gemacht. Ähm, haben sehr viel Natur gesehen. Äh, das sieht toll draußen aus. Wie sieht's in dir aus? Tja, im Moment etwas nervös. Ja, klar. Ähm, aber es ist nicht so dunkel, wie es schon mal war. Mhm. Wie ist es für dich? Es sind irgendwie zwei, zwei für dich wildfremde Kerle. Wir haben gestern miteinander telefoniert, aber trotzdem, da muss man ja auch erst mal irgendwie 'n gewisses Vertrauen aufbringen. Was, was hat für dich den ausschlaggebenden Punkt gegeben, dass du gesagt hast, ich, ich möchte bei NoStigma dabei sein? Wenn ich an mich zurückdenke, die Unwissenheit zu dem Thema Wochenbettdepression. Bei anderen Frauen es irgendwie anders laufen kann, könnte, wie's bei mir war, weil ich einfach zu wenig darüber wusste und... Jetzt müssen wir so ein bisschen an das Eingemachte gehen. Wie war's denn bei dir? Also ich hab zwei Kinder. Der Größere kam 2015 im Dezember zur Welt und der Kleinere 2018 im Januar. Letztendlich eine diagnostizierte Wochenbettdepression hatte ich dann, ähm, 2018, als dann der Kleine auf der Welt war, aber tatsächlich erst so 'n halbes Jahr, nachdem dann der Kleine auf der Welt war. Das ist einfach reichlich spät. Mhm. Ähm, die Symptome, die kamen ungefähr sieben Wochen nach der Geburt. Nach der Geburt deines zweiten Sohnes? Des zweiten Sohnes. Das war also nach der Geburt deines ersten Sohnes hattest du die Probleme nicht. Also im Nachhinein, wenn ich jetzt das Wissen habe, dass ich, oder wenn ich damals das Wissen gehabt hätte, das ich jetzt habe, würd ich sagen, ich hatte vielleicht eine leichte Wochenbettdepression. Aber da war es hauptsächlich eigentlich eine, ein Geburtstrauma, das mich beim zwei, beim ersten Sohn, ähm, gequält hat, sag ich mal. Es war also eine schwierige Geburt, die Geburt deines ersten Sohnes. Es war eine schwierige Geburt für mich und, ähm, ich wusste, irgendwas stimmt nicht, aber, ähm, so Flashbacks und so kamen dann erst auch so acht Monate ungefähr nach der Geburt und ich wusste, irgendwas war, war falsch gelaufen, irgendwas passt nicht. Und, ähm, dann kam später aber auch der zweite Kinderwunsch und der hat das einfach, glaub ich, auch wirklich überdeckelt letztendlich, so dass ich's nie komplett aufgearbeitet hatte dann in der Zeit, sondern wirklich der zweite Kinderwunsch war dann so stark, dass ich 'n zweites Kind haben wollte und, ähm, da war das Geburtstrauma erst mal hinten runtergefallen. Und die Geburt deines zweiten oder eures zweiten Sohnes lief ja, glaub ich, auch ohne irgendwelche Komplikationen ab. Genau. Also die war, es war eine schöne Geburt für mich. Ich war wirklich gut betreut und mir ging's gut. Es war auch, als ich dann zu Hause war, war alles wunderbar und ja, ich hatte auch das Gefühl, dieses, ja, gerühmte Gefühl des Mutterglücks- Mhm. -was ich beim ersten nicht hatte und mir ging's die ersten Wochen ging's mir wirklich richtig gut. Und plötzlich hat sich irgendwie was verändert und das war halt irgendwie nicht im Außen, sondern im Innen. Kannst du beschreiben, wie sich das angefühlt hat? Äh, kam, kam das schleichend oder war es urplötzlich da? Das weiß ich ehrlich gesagt nicht mehr, aber ich glaube, es kam schleichend und irgendwann war es halt einfach so, dass ich mich wirklich leer gefühlt hab, musste viel weinen, ähm, ja, hatte einfach so diese kompletten oder einige der Symptome, die halt einfach 'ne Depression, Wochenbettdepression so mit sich führt. Ich konnte nicht mehr so gut schlafen. Gut, was mit kleinem Baby sowieso eher schwierig ist, aber es hat sich trotzdem irgendwas verändert und ich hatte dann der Hebamme, ähm, Bescheid gegeben und hatte mit ihr gesprochen und, ähm, die sagte zu mir damals dann nur, na ja, sie meint, sie ist jetzt nicht die richtige Ansprechpartnerin für das, hat aber nicht gesagt: \"Äh, pass auf, äh, Mel, es könnte sein, dass du irgendwie Richtung Wochenbettdepression schlitterst. Geh zum Arzt.\" Ähm, und ich hab mir dann nur so gedacht, na ja, also ich wusste ja nicht, was es sein könnte. Oder ich mein, klar, ich hab schon mal von der Wochenbettdepression gehört, aber ich dachte mir dann, na ja gut, wenn sie's jetzt nicht so ernst nimmt, dann wird's schon nicht so schlimm sein. Also irgendwie war's, wurd's aber immer schlimmer und letztendlich bin ich dann tatsächlich halt erst 'n halbes Jahr, ähm, nachdem die Symptome dann oder beziehungsweise nach der Geburt halt zu meiner Hausärztin gegangen. Und die hat mir dann erst mal, äh, gesagt, na ja, Wochenbettdepression und hat dann auch noch zusätzlich zur ersten Geburt, äh, die Diagnose Geburtstrauma halt eben gestellt. Na, ich kann mir vorstellen, natürlich, man ist gerade das zweite Mal Mama geworden, man hat 'n, 'n kleines Baby, da ist der Tag ja auch voll, ne. Ja. Und, äh, da hat man unter Umständen vielleicht auch einfach schlicht und ergreifend was anderes zu tun, als jetzt zum Hausarzt zu gehen. Man wird sich's wahrscheinlich auch nicht so richtig eingestehen wollen am Anfang, oder? Nein, überhaupt nicht. Du erwartest ja wahrscheinlich von dir auch, dass du 'ne, 'ne tolle Mama bist und so weiter und so fort. Dein Umfeld erwartet es unter Umständen. Genau. Dann hat man wahrscheinlich mal was vom Babyblues gehört, äh, und dass der Babyblues was anderes ist als 'ne Wochenbettdepression. Das hat man wahrscheinlich auch nicht aufm Schirm. Mhm. Ja. Wie war das? Hast du die ganze Zeit so gedacht: \"Ah, ist 'ne Phase, geht hoffentlich bald wieder weg und...\" Ja, im Grunde schon. Also ich, was ich gemacht hab, ähm, ich war halt dann mal irgendwie bei meiner Heilpraktikerin oder so, aber die hat auch nicht so wirklich, also wir sind dann eher auf-Das Geburtstrauma dann irgendwie wieder so gekommen, dass man das vielleicht irgendwie eher bearbeiten sollte und, ähm, da ist ja sowieso nicht viel mit irgendwelchen, ähm, Medikamenten und so weiter. Ähm, aber Fakt ist, ich hätt wahrscheinlich einfach mit Medikamenten gleich eingestellt gehört und dann wär das Ganze vielleicht, ähm, nicht unbedingt so aus dem Ruder gelaufen, wie es letztendlich dann, äh, passiert ist. Wie war denn, äh, zu, zu diesem Zeitpunkt, ähm, also kurz nach der Geburt eures zweiten Kindes, wie warst du da aufgestellt? Also lag da alles auf deinen Schultern oder, äh, gab's da Hilfe aus der Familie? Äh, ich mein jetzt gar nicht mal Hilfe bezüglich deiner Wochenbettdepression, sondern einfach für diesen neuen Lebensabschnitt. Also ich hatte viel Hilfe, weil ich hatte, ähm, zwei Omas. Eine Oma direkt, äh, ein paar Häuser weiter und die andere Oma so fünfzehn Kilometer ungefähr entfernt. Also, ähm, die haben mir meinen Großen auch regelmäßig abgenommen und, ähm, tja, durfte dann auch teilweise zu der Tante. Und da muss ich sagen, kann ich mich glücklich schätzen, weil ich wirklich im Familienumfeld einfach viel, ähm, Hilfe habe. Ich weiß, es gibt viele Frauen, die's nicht haben, ähm, und da muss ich mich wirklich glücklich schätzen. Also ich Gott sei Dank die Hilfe dann für den Großen dann auch annehmen konnte. Und gut, den Kleinen, den hab ich gestillt. Der war erst mal an mich gebunden. Mit dem Großen, den konnt ich, den konnt ich ohne Weiteres dann auch mal eben der Oma geben oder so. Gab's denn neben der Hilfe auch das Verständnis für dich und deine Situation? Ehrlich gesagt, glaub ich, hab ich am Anfang gar nicht unbedingt dafür oder darüber gesprochen. Mein Mann wusste es natürlich. Ähm, auch meine Mutter wusste es, aber mit meinen Schwiegereltern und so und im Umkreis hab ich das ehrlich gesagt erst mal nicht so groß breit getreten. Weil du Angst hattest, scheu? Es ist ja nix, wo man sagt, och Mensch. Also erstens ist es, was das so, so unwirklich erscheint, irgendwie so überhaupt nicht greifbar für andere Leute, ist jetzt meine Meinung. Weil Betroffene oder wenn ich jetzt von mir zumindest spreche, für mich ist es ja auch nicht greifbar. Und dann irgendwie zu sagen, ah, hey, ähm, ich hab jetzt hier 'ne Wochenbettdepression, wollt euch nur mal Bescheid geben, das war nicht so mein, mein Ding irgendwie. Das war, das ist leichter, über eventuell somatische Sachen, glaub ich, zu sprechen, als jetzt über psychische Sachen. Ja, ich glaube zumal, wenn's mit so 'nem per se so positiv besetzten Ereignis wie, wie der Geburt eines Kindes behaftet ist, ne. Wenn jetzt jemand sagt, ich hab 'n Burnout, weil ich hab so viel gearbeitet und werd von meinem Job gestresst, da ist vielleicht unter Umständen das Verständnis noch größer, als wenn man sagt: \"Ich hab 'n Kind gekriegt und irgendwie macht es mich nicht in erster Linie glücklich\", wie man's wahrscheinlich auch von sich selbst erwartet, sondern es macht was anderes mit mir und nichts Gutes. Jetzt ist ja aber die Geburt eures zweiten Sohnes acht Jahre her und du bist nicht symptomfrei. Nein. Wo man jetzt eigentlich sagen würde, okay, 'ne Wochenbettdepression acht Jahre später ist ja wahrscheinlich irgendwann mal durch. Mhm. Bei dir scheint's nicht so zu sein. Definitiv nicht. Also bei mir ging's dann, nachdem dann der Kleine auf der Welt war, ähm, da hatt ich 'ne Phase, da ging's mir dann erst mal wirklich richtig, richtig gut. Also beziehungsweise nachdem ich halt bei meiner Hausärztin war damals, hab ich, ähm, das erste Antidepressivum geschrieben bekommen und auf das hin ging's mir dann einigermaßen gut. Ich war relativ stabil. Ich hatte noch Symptome, aber es war einigermaßen in Ordnung. Ja, letztendlich ist es dann so weit gekommen, dass ich tatsächlich dann 2019, der Kleine war noch kein, keine zwei Jahre alt, ähm, in die erste psychosomatische Klinik, äh, gegangen bin, in der Hoffnung, die Depression, damals war's 'ne mittelschwere Depression, dann, ähm, wieder in den Griff zu bekommen, auch hoffnungsvollerweise die, das Geburtstrauma aufzuarbeiten, was mir immer noch dann zu schaffen machte. Da war's dann auch letztendlich wieder so: Die Klinik an sich, ähm, hat mir wirklich gutgetan, aber ich hab dann zum Schluss halt mit der Ärztin gesprochen. Die Ärztin meinte, ja, ich könnte, wenn ich mutig wäre, ähm, das Antidepressiva jetzt ausschleichen. Nachdem ich wieder runtergegangen bin von der Dosierung her, ähm, hat's mich dann das zweite Mal zerlegt. Im Endeffekt bin ich dann 2020 im Herbst, äh, in der Psychiatrie in Mainkofen gelandet. Das war dann der erste Aufenthalt in Mainkofen. Dann war ich '21, äh, gleich noch mal da. 2022 war ich zweimal dort, '23 einmal und '24 jetzt zweimal. Und wie lang sind dann jeweils deine Aufenthalte da? Also der längste war tatsächlich jetzt, äh, 2021 mit 'nem halben Jahr. Ansonsten sind's meistens so sieben, acht, mal zwölf Wochen. Letztendlich hab ich jetzt, glaub ich, um die, wenn ich's hochrechne, um die zwei Jahre, ähm, in Kliniken verbracht die letzten neun Jahre, seit die Kinder auf der Welt sind. Was für mich halt auch bedeutet, zwei Jahre, die mir irgendwie fehlen von im Leben. Mit welchen Augen schaust du auf deine Kinder? Ich liebe meine Kinder. Ich weiß, dass ich sie liebe. Das Problem und das Fiese an der Depression ist, dass man's nicht spüren kann, also ich zumindest. Ich weiß, ich liebe sie über alles und meine Kinder sind auch diejenigen, die mich halten. Mhm.Aber ich kann's nicht spüren. Kannst du mit deinen Kindern darüber sprechen? Ja. Die beiden kennen die Depression unter, ähm, Depressionsmonster, weil gibt's 'n ganz nettes Buch und das hatte ich damals gekauft und, ähm, und deswegen nennen sie quasi meine Depression jetzt immer das Depressionsmonster und ich, ähm, sag ihnen halt dann wieder: „Okay, also das Depressionsmonster ist jetzt vielleicht 'n bisschen kleiner, ähm, also geht's mir besser.\" Mhm. Und wenn's wieder größer wird, dann, ähm, wissen sie auch, okay, ähm, kann sein, dass die Mama vielleicht auch wieder in die Klinik muss. An welchen Punkten deines Alltags spielt deine Erkrankung 'ne Rolle? Und ich möchte eigentlich auf die Stelle hinaus: Inwieweit spielt 'ne Stigmatisierung eines solchen Krankheitsbildes 'ne Rolle? Ich hab schon immer so das Gefühl, so im Umkreis, auch wenn mir oder im Umfeld halt, ähm, auch wenn mir das so niemand sagt, aber, ähm, ich habe einfach so den Eindruck, dass Leute vielleicht reden könnten: „Ach, die ist ja einfach nur faul, die will ja nicht\", oder so. Es ist tatsächlich so, dass es mir auch unglaublich viel Kraft kostet, allein die kleine Wohnung hier jetzt irgendwie, ähm, einigermaßen sauber zu halten und ich einfach antriebsmäßig ziemlich gehemmt bin. Ich schaff's im Moment auch nicht mal, so wirklich, äh, spazieren zu gehen oder so. Also es klingt irgendwie so banal, aber es ist so, für einen selbst ist es auch so unverständlich. Warum kann ich jetzt nicht einfach rausgehen und einfach da mal 'ne Runde spazieren gehen? Irgendwas, irgendwann 'n, 'n, 'n unsichtbares Seil bindet mich, weiß ich nicht, an 'n Stuhl, ähm, dass ich sagen muss: „Okay, äh, nee, ich geh jetzt nicht.\" Und also hauptsächlich ist es halt einfach wirklich so, dieses, diese Angst irgendwie über das Gerede: „Ja, die ist faul, die, ähm, will ja einfach nur nicht.\" Aber wenn die Leute einfach mal nur 'n, 'ne Sekunde lang wahrscheinlich oder eine Minute lang in meinen Kopf gucken könnten, ich weiß nicht, was sie dann sagen würden. Was würden Sie sehen, wenn Sie in deinen Kopf gucken in dem Moment jetzt? Grundsätzlich 'ne gewisse Traurigkeit, einfach aufgrund dessen, dass ich nicht so kann, wie ich will. Ich mein, mir geht's im Moment tatsächlich verhältnismäßig gut, das muss ich auch sagen und, ähm, für das muss ich auch dankbar sein. Ich möchte eini-- Also ich möchte wirklich viel. Ich würde gerne arbeiten. Ähm, ich bin jetzt grad am Überlegen, ähm, dass ich jetzt oder eigentlich schon seit Wochen am Überlegen, dass ich zu meiner alten Firma fahre und mit meinem Chef einfach mal spreche und, äh, sag: „Ähm, du, pass auf, ich würd gerne wiederkommen.\" Und er mir ja eh auch immer sagt: „Okay, wenn's ist, meld dich, ähm, irgendwas finden wir.\" Aber im Moment, ich schaff's einfach nicht, weil ich einfach auch ein Problem hab, was Konzentration betrifft, was Erinnerungen betrifft. Es sind so viele Kleinigkeiten, die mir, die ich manchmal tatsächlich auch wieder vergesse, bis sie dann wieder irgendwie mit 'nem Hammer ähm, plötzlich wieder auftauchen. Du hast gerade gesagt, im Moment geht's dir verhältnismäßig gut. Ja. Wie hast du das geschafft? Also was tust du aktiv, damit's dir gut geht? Na ja, also ich denke, ich bin recht gut eingestellt, was Medikamente betrifft. Das heißt, du nimmst nach wie vor Medikamente? Ich nehme Medikamente. Ich nehme viele Medikamente. Also ist gleich leider nicht nur eins. Dann hab ich 'ne wunderbare Psychologin, mit der ich wöchentlich, äh, Termine habe. Ja, im Moment, ich versuche einfach irgendwie die Depression so 'n bisschen auszutricksen, oder was heißt, das geht, funktioniert grundsätzlich nicht, aber ich versuch zumindest, dass ich, ähm, so wie gestern, wir waren gestern, äh, am Herrenkemssee, äh, mit den Kindern. Ich war unendlich kaputt und mich hat's zeitweise gedreht und ich war einfach, weil die letzten Tage einfach anstrengend waren, aber ich wollte es halt dann einfach unbedingt, ähm, für die Kinder, dass sie nicht nur immer den Papa irgendwie im, in Erinnerung haben, wenn's irgendwie an Ausflüge oder so was geht, sondern auch mich dann irgendwie mal in Erinnerung haben. Ich mein, sie überfordern mich auch komplett. Das ist so dieses zweischneidige Schwert. Sie sind bei mir und wenn sie bei mir sind, dann, ähm, ja, bin ich maximal überfordert in der Regel. Und wenn ich aber die Kinder nicht habe, dann, ähm, ja, weiß ich nichts mit mir anzufangen. Dann, ähm, wander ich von einem Fleckchen vom Schreibtisch irgendwie dann rüber zum Esstisch und wieder zurück, weil lesen geht im Moment nicht, was ich eigentlich gerne gemacht hab. Ich kann im Moment zumindest einigermaßen funktionieren und das ist schon, schon viel wert. Wobei ich auch aufpassen muss. Also ich darf mich nicht überfordern, weil sonst geht der Schuss nach hinten los. Mhm. Wie äußert sich das dann? Es sind einfach die Symptome, die dann wieder intensiver werden. Es kommen dann auch Symptome hinzu, über die man nicht so gerne spricht, wie Suizidgedanken. Das ist einfach dann, und die Traurigkeit und die Antriebslosigkeit wird noch, noch schwerer und man fühlt sich einfach wie Blei. Es ist so, ich, ich hab mal 'n Bild gemalt, ähm, wenn ich nicht wusste, wie ich's irgendwie beschreiben sollte und da hab ich's eigentlichSo 'n bisschen gemahlen, so 'ne, es kommt so 'ne Welle über einen drüber und, ähm, man sitzt so im Nebel und dann sieht man einfach nur noch 'n Tunnel, der einfach dunkel ist, aber kein, kein Licht irgendwie am Ende des Tunnel. Und außenrum ist so 'ne Glaskuppel und man kommt nicht raus ins, ins Leben. Gibt es einen Ort, einen Sehnsuchtsort, einen Platz, an den du gerne gehst, wenn's dir nicht gut geht oder wenn's dir gut geht? 'N Platz, an dem du gern alleine bist, wo die Gedanken frei sind? Mhm. Ja, so einen gibt's tatsächlich. Und zwar ist nicht weit von hier 'n kleines Waldstück und, ähm, da ist 'ne kleine Bank. Auf die hab ich mich immer gesetzt, wenn's mir wirklich gar nicht gut ging. Manchmal war's gut, dass ich dort war und andererseits war's manchmal auch nicht so gut, weil da konnt ich auch, ja, man grübelt ja in der Depression. Meistens hat's mir aber gutgetan, einfach da zu sitzen und, ähm, es sind viele Tränen auf dieser Bank geflossen. Könntest du dir vorstellen, mit uns zu dieser Bank zu gehen? Ja, kann ich. Wollen wir's machen? Gerne. Spielt Religion für dich 'ne Rolle? Sagen wir so, ich glaube, dass es was gibt, aber ich glaub's nicht unbedingt so, wie die Kirche es erzählt. Hat dir das in deiner Situation irgendwo Halt gegeben oder hat's dich eher verzweifeln lassen? Weder noch. Also ehrlich gesagt, die ganze Zeit über war für mich, ja, der Glaube nicht wirklich relevant. Mhm. Du hast ja, ähm, erzählt, dass als es losging mit, mit deiner Wochenbettdepression, du sehr, sehr viel Halt und Unterstützung auch von der Familie, von deinem Mann bekommen hast. Nun gehört ja leider auch dazu, als wir vorhin bei dir in der Wohnung waren, das ist keine gemeinsame Wohnung mehr. Das ist richtig, ja. Das heißt also, eure Ehe hat deine Erkrankung nicht überstanden. Nein. Was war der Auslöser? Warum ging's nicht mehr? Na ja, ich war früher wirklich 'n lebensfroher, lustiger Mensch, etwas schlanker. Ja, mit der Depression hab ich mich wohl so sehr verändert, dass es einfach nicht mehr tragbar war. Irgendwie haben wir uns halt einfach auch auseinandergelebt. Und in der Zeit, wo ich in den Kliniken war, die ganzen insgesamt zwei Jahre über, war er ja ständig allein mit den Jungs. Vor allem auch, was Kommunikation betrifft, da bin ich sehr schlecht. Mhm. Ich kann eigentlich nicht unbedingt gut mit ihm reden, wenn ich irgendwie 'n Problem hatte oder so. Er hat mir immer gesagt, ich soll halt Bescheid geben, wenn's mir nicht gut geht und so weiter, aber ich konnt's eigentlich nicht. Und oft hat er's halt irgendwie anderweitig gemerkt, bis ich dann irgendwann mal was gesagt habe, war's eigentlich meistens zu spät. Und ja, irgendwie hat's einfach scheinbar nicht sollen sein. Die Kinder sind bei deinem Mann, die beiden Jungs? Ähm, nicht nur. Also ich hab sie dreimal die Woche über Nacht bei mir in der Wohnung und die restliche Zeit sind sie aber bei meinem Mann. Wobei, wenn der arbeitet, ähm, unter der Woche, bin natürlich dann schon auch ich für die Kinder zuständig. Wobei auch da, ähm, mir meine Mutter und meine Schwiegermutter, ähm, auch dabei behilflich ist. Mhm. Wie lange, wie lange seid ihr denn zusammen gewesen bis zu dem Punkt, wo es nicht mehr ging? Fünfzehn Jahre. Vielleicht ist es 'ne Chance, 'ne Chance, dass die Depression auch irgendwie besser wird, wenn ich für mich etwas mehr Ruhe auch bekomme oder etwas mehr Abstand bekomme zu allem so 'n bisschen. Ah, wir sind an deiner Bank. Wir sind an meiner Bank, genau. Wie oft hast du hier gesessen? Tja, unzählige Male. Ich weiß es ehrlich gesagt nicht. Und mit welchen Gedanken bist du hierher gekommen? Schwere Gedanken. Unfassbar schwierige Gedanken. Kannst du uns mitnehmen, welche Gedanken das gewesen sind? Es waren Suizidgedanken mit dabei. Es ging oft um den Sinn meines Lebens. Ging dann natürlich darum, dass ich aber auch meine Kinder nicht allein lassen will. Im Grunde sah ich eigentlich keine, keine Chance, dass sich das jemals wieder, wieder bessern würde. Es war einfach ziemlich dunkel alles. Wenn du sagst, es war, gibt es denn Dinge, die dich hoffnungsvoll stimmen, wo du sagst, hier sehe ich Licht am Horizont? Mhm. Na ja, ich hab's jetzt geschafft, dass ich jetzt sechs Monate nicht in der Klinik war. Das ist schon mal sehr gut. Nachdem es mir jetzt im Moment einigermaßen gut geht, hab ich die Hoffnung, dass ich vielleicht, wenn ich Glück habe, auch nie mehr irgendwie so tief falle, wie's damals passiert ist. Gut, ich mein, ich werd kein Kind mehr bekommen, aber, ähm, ich hätte mir damals einfach früh genug Hilfe suchen müssen und die letzten Jahre über teilweise auch und nicht erst warten, bis es wirklich komplett dunkel ist über, um, um einen rum. Ich hab 'ne Frage, die klingt vielleicht brutal, du musst sie auch nicht beantworten, aber war jemals der Gedanke da, vielleicht wär's besser gewesen, kein zweites Kind zu bekommen? Ehrlich gesagt bin ich mir nicht sicher, ob ich den Gedanken jemals hatte. Ich glaub nicht, weil ich nieMeinen Kindern die Schuld an der Situation gegeben hab. Grundsätzlich hätte ich einfach vielleicht keine Kinder bekommen sollen. Ich hab immer das Gefühl, ich bin einfach nicht so, nicht gut genug als Mama. Ich genüge nicht. Ich, ja, mit der Krankheit und so weiter. Wobei ohne meine Kinder weiß ich nicht, ob ich ehrlich gesagt noch hier sitzen würde. Trotzdem es dir, wie wir ja jetzt auch grade mitkriegen, nicht immer gut geht und du deine Dämonen nach wie vor hast, ähm, die Kraft gefunden, die Erfahrungen, die du gesammelt hast mit deiner Krankheit, durchaus auch an andere weiterzugeben. Du bist in einem Verein. Kannst du darüber ein bisschen was erzählen? Ja, ähm, ja, der Verein nennt sich Schatten und Licht und ist ein Verein, äh, zu psychischen Erkrankungen rund um die Geburt eines Kindes. Und da steh ich als Beraterin auf der Beraterinnen- und Selbsthilfegruppenliste. Ja, einfach aus dem Grund, weil ich halt irgendwie hoffe, und wenn's nur eine Frau ist, der ich das irgendwie auch ersparen kann, dass sie zu lange wartet, halt die Hoffnung habe, da vielleicht irgendwie ein bisschen was zu bewirken. Das wär mir wichtig. Eine Wochenbettdepression ist natürlich nichts, was, was so enden muss, wie's bei mir jetzt geendet ist. Oder meine, meine Geschichte geht ja noch weiter dann irgendwann, aber sie ist eigentlich wirklich gut behandelbar. Das ist ja das Schlimme an dem Ganzen, dass man wirklich, ähm, wenn man sie frühzeitig behandeln lässt, auch nicht unbedingt, ähm, dann so enden muss, wie ich jetzt geendet bin, sage ich mal. Inwieweit hilft dir diese Beschäftigung, also dass du anderen helfen kannst, inwieweit hilft dir das selbst auch? Ich helfe grundsätzlich gerne anderen Menschen. Ja, für mich ist es irgendwie wichtig. Ich kann nicht sagen, wieso, aber, ähm, ja, ich helfe einfach gerne. Und der Witz an der Geschichte ist, dass ich mir eigentlich nicht unbedingt gerne helfen lasse. Ja, ich hab da vielleicht einfach 'ne gewisse Genugtuung an, an gewisse, ein gewisses Erfolgserlebnis, oder nee, Erfolgserlebnis ist nicht der richtige Ausdruck. Erfüllung? Ja. Ja, irgendwie 'ne gewisse Erfüllung, wenn ich einfach weiß, okay, ich konnte jetzt vielleicht jemanden einfach nur, und wenn ich ihn in den Arm genommen hab, einfach nur dadurch irgendwie helfen. Du hast grade zwei Dinge gesagt. Du hast von Hoffnung gesprochen und du hast gesagt, deine Geschichte ist ja hier noch nicht auserzählt. Machen wir mal den vorsichtigen Versuch und denken jetzt in die Zukunft. In einer idealen Welt, wenn du dir was wünschen könntest, wo würdest du dich in fünf, in zehn Jahren sehen? Ganz klar in Australien mit meinen Kindern. Australien ist mein Herzensland und, ähm, ich war, ja, Australien ist einfach mein Land. Ich weiß auch nicht. Es ist einfach, ist einfach so. Ich danke dir sehr, sehr herzlich, dass du uns so tief in dich hast reinblicken lassen und dass du uns mitgenommen hast an diesen ganz besonderen Ort. Und ich, äh, drücke dir die Daumen. Ich wünsche dir von Herzen, dass du A, die Kraft findest, die Zuversicht findest, auch die Selbstachtsamkeit und die Selbstliebe findest, äh, genau diesen Wunsch vielleicht auf eine gewisse Art und Weise wahrwerden zu lassen. Und vor allem wünsche ich dir, dass du deine Kinder immer an deiner Seite hast. Danke schön. Gerne. Vielen lieben Dank, dass wir mit dir hierhergehen durften. Danke. Und dass wir dich so begleiten durften. Alles Gute für dich. Danke schön. Ist aber echt auch ein schönes Sächchen.", + "raw_asr_payload": { + "language_code": "deu", + "language_probability": 1.0, + "text": "Hallo und danke, dass wir bei dir sein dürfen. Gerne. Wir haben heute früh 'ne schöne Reise von, von München hierher zu dir gemacht. Ähm, haben sehr viel Natur gesehen. Äh, das sieht toll draußen aus. Wie sieht's in dir aus? Tja, im Moment etwas nervös. Ja, klar. Ähm, aber es ist nicht so dunkel, wie es schon mal war. Mhm. Wie ist es für dich? Es sind irgendwie zwei, zwei für dich wildfremde Kerle. Wir haben gestern miteinander telefoniert, aber trotzdem, da muss man ja auch erst mal irgendwie 'n gewisses Vertrauen aufbringen. Was, was hat für dich den ausschlaggebenden Punkt gegeben, dass du gesagt hast, ich, ich möchte bei NoStigma dabei sein? Wenn ich an mich zurückdenke, die Unwissenheit zu dem Thema Wochenbettdepression. Bei anderen Frauen es irgendwie anders laufen kann, könnte, wie's bei mir war, weil ich einfach zu wenig darüber wusste und... Jetzt müssen wir so ein bisschen an das Eingemachte gehen. Wie war's denn bei dir? Also ich hab zwei Kinder. Der Größere kam 2015 im Dezember zur Welt und der Kleinere 2018 im Januar. Letztendlich eine diagnostizierte Wochenbettdepression hatte ich dann, ähm, 2018, als dann der Kleine auf der Welt war, aber tatsächlich erst so 'n halbes Jahr, nachdem dann der Kleine auf der Welt war. Das ist einfach reichlich spät. Mhm. Ähm, die Symptome, die kamen ungefähr sieben Wochen nach der Geburt. Nach der Geburt deines zweiten Sohnes? Des zweiten Sohnes. Das war also nach der Geburt deines ersten Sohnes hattest du die Probleme nicht. Also im Nachhinein, wenn ich jetzt das Wissen habe, dass ich, oder wenn ich damals das Wissen gehabt hätte, das ich jetzt habe, würd ich sagen, ich hatte vielleicht eine leichte Wochenbettdepression. Aber da war es hauptsächlich eigentlich eine, ein Geburtstrauma, das mich beim zwei, beim ersten Sohn, ähm, gequält hat, sag ich mal. Es war also eine schwierige Geburt, die Geburt deines ersten Sohnes. Es war eine schwierige Geburt für mich und, ähm, ich wusste, irgendwas stimmt nicht, aber, ähm, so Flashbacks und so kamen dann erst auch so acht Monate ungefähr nach der Geburt und ich wusste, irgendwas war, war falsch gelaufen, irgendwas passt nicht. Und, ähm, dann kam später aber auch der zweite Kinderwunsch und der hat das einfach, glaub ich, auch wirklich überdeckelt letztendlich, so dass ich's nie komplett aufgearbeitet hatte dann in der Zeit, sondern wirklich der zweite Kinderwunsch war dann so stark, dass ich 'n zweites Kind haben wollte und, ähm, da war das Geburtstrauma erst mal hinten runtergefallen. Und die Geburt deines zweiten oder eures zweiten Sohnes lief ja, glaub ich, auch ohne irgendwelche Komplikationen ab. Genau. Also die war, es war eine schöne Geburt für mich. Ich war wirklich gut betreut und mir ging's gut. Es war auch, als ich dann zu Hause war, war alles wunderbar und ja, ich hatte auch das Gefühl, dieses, ja, gerühmte Gefühl des Mutterglücks- Mhm. -was ich beim ersten nicht hatte und mir ging's die ersten Wochen ging's mir wirklich richtig gut. Und plötzlich hat sich irgendwie was verändert und das war halt irgendwie nicht im Außen, sondern im Innen. Kannst du beschreiben, wie sich das angefühlt hat? Äh, kam, kam das schleichend oder war es urplötzlich da? Das weiß ich ehrlich gesagt nicht mehr, aber ich glaube, es kam schleichend und irgendwann war es halt einfach so, dass ich mich wirklich leer gefühlt hab, musste viel weinen, ähm, ja, hatte einfach so diese kompletten oder einige der Symptome, die halt einfach 'ne Depression, Wochenbettdepression so mit sich führt. Ich konnte nicht mehr so gut schlafen. Gut, was mit kleinem Baby sowieso eher schwierig ist, aber es hat sich trotzdem irgendwas verändert und ich hatte dann der Hebamme, ähm, Bescheid gegeben und hatte mit ihr gesprochen und, ähm, die sagte zu mir damals dann nur, na ja, sie meint, sie ist jetzt nicht die richtige Ansprechpartnerin für das, hat aber nicht gesagt: \"Äh, pass auf, äh, Mel, es könnte sein, dass du irgendwie Richtung Wochenbettdepression schlitterst. Geh zum Arzt.\" Ähm, und ich hab mir dann nur so gedacht, na ja, also ich wusste ja nicht, was es sein könnte. Oder ich mein, klar, ich hab schon mal von der Wochenbettdepression gehört, aber ich dachte mir dann, na ja gut, wenn sie's jetzt nicht so ernst nimmt, dann wird's schon nicht so schlimm sein. Also irgendwie war's, wurd's aber immer schlimmer und letztendlich bin ich dann tatsächlich halt erst 'n halbes Jahr, ähm, nachdem die Symptome dann oder beziehungsweise nach der Geburt halt zu meiner Hausärztin gegangen. Und die hat mir dann erst mal, äh, gesagt, na ja, Wochenbettdepression und hat dann auch noch zusätzlich zur ersten Geburt, äh, die Diagnose Geburtstrauma halt eben gestellt. Na, ich kann mir vorstellen, natürlich, man ist gerade das zweite Mal Mama geworden, man hat 'n, 'n kleines Baby, da ist der Tag ja auch voll, ne. Ja. Und, äh, da hat man unter Umständen vielleicht auch einfach schlicht und ergreifend was anderes zu tun, als jetzt zum Hausarzt zu gehen. Man wird sich's wahrscheinlich auch nicht so richtig eingestehen wollen am Anfang, oder? Nein, überhaupt nicht. Du erwartest ja wahrscheinlich von dir auch, dass du 'ne, 'ne tolle Mama bist und so weiter und so fort. Dein Umfeld erwartet es unter Umständen. Genau. Dann hat man wahrscheinlich mal was vom Babyblues gehört, äh, und dass der Babyblues was anderes ist als 'ne Wochenbettdepression. Das hat man wahrscheinlich auch nicht aufm Schirm. Mhm. Ja. Wie war das? Hast du die ganze Zeit so gedacht: \"Ah, ist 'ne Phase, geht hoffentlich bald wieder weg und...\" Ja, im Grunde schon. Also ich, was ich gemacht hab, ähm, ich war halt dann mal irgendwie bei meiner Heilpraktikerin oder so, aber die hat auch nicht so wirklich, also wir sind dann eher auf-Das Geburtstrauma dann irgendwie wieder so gekommen, dass man das vielleicht irgendwie eher bearbeiten sollte und, ähm, da ist ja sowieso nicht viel mit irgendwelchen, ähm, Medikamenten und so weiter. Ähm, aber Fakt ist, ich hätt wahrscheinlich einfach mit Medikamenten gleich eingestellt gehört und dann wär das Ganze vielleicht, ähm, nicht unbedingt so aus dem Ruder gelaufen, wie es letztendlich dann, äh, passiert ist. Wie war denn, äh, zu, zu diesem Zeitpunkt, ähm, also kurz nach der Geburt eures zweiten Kindes, wie warst du da aufgestellt? Also lag da alles auf deinen Schultern oder, äh, gab's da Hilfe aus der Familie? Äh, ich mein jetzt gar nicht mal Hilfe bezüglich deiner Wochenbettdepression, sondern einfach für diesen neuen Lebensabschnitt. Also ich hatte viel Hilfe, weil ich hatte, ähm, zwei Omas. Eine Oma direkt, äh, ein paar Häuser weiter und die andere Oma so fünfzehn Kilometer ungefähr entfernt. Also, ähm, die haben mir meinen Großen auch regelmäßig abgenommen und, ähm, tja, durfte dann auch teilweise zu der Tante. Und da muss ich sagen, kann ich mich glücklich schätzen, weil ich wirklich im Familienumfeld einfach viel, ähm, Hilfe habe. Ich weiß, es gibt viele Frauen, die's nicht haben, ähm, und da muss ich mich wirklich glücklich schätzen. Also ich Gott sei Dank die Hilfe dann für den Großen dann auch annehmen konnte. Und gut, den Kleinen, den hab ich gestillt. Der war erst mal an mich gebunden. Mit dem Großen, den konnt ich, den konnt ich ohne Weiteres dann auch mal eben der Oma geben oder so. Gab's denn neben der Hilfe auch das Verständnis für dich und deine Situation? Ehrlich gesagt, glaub ich, hab ich am Anfang gar nicht unbedingt dafür oder darüber gesprochen. Mein Mann wusste es natürlich. Ähm, auch meine Mutter wusste es, aber mit meinen Schwiegereltern und so und im Umkreis hab ich das ehrlich gesagt erst mal nicht so groß breit getreten. Weil du Angst hattest, scheu? Es ist ja nix, wo man sagt, och Mensch. Also erstens ist es, was das so, so unwirklich erscheint, irgendwie so überhaupt nicht greifbar für andere Leute, ist jetzt meine Meinung. Weil Betroffene oder wenn ich jetzt von mir zumindest spreche, für mich ist es ja auch nicht greifbar. Und dann irgendwie zu sagen, ah, hey, ähm, ich hab jetzt hier 'ne Wochenbettdepression, wollt euch nur mal Bescheid geben, das war nicht so mein, mein Ding irgendwie. Das war, das ist leichter, über eventuell somatische Sachen, glaub ich, zu sprechen, als jetzt über psychische Sachen. Ja, ich glaube zumal, wenn's mit so 'nem per se so positiv besetzten Ereignis wie, wie der Geburt eines Kindes behaftet ist, ne. Wenn jetzt jemand sagt, ich hab 'n Burnout, weil ich hab so viel gearbeitet und werd von meinem Job gestresst, da ist vielleicht unter Umständen das Verständnis noch größer, als wenn man sagt: \"Ich hab 'n Kind gekriegt und irgendwie macht es mich nicht in erster Linie glücklich\", wie man's wahrscheinlich auch von sich selbst erwartet, sondern es macht was anderes mit mir und nichts Gutes. Jetzt ist ja aber die Geburt eures zweiten Sohnes acht Jahre her und du bist nicht symptomfrei. Nein. Wo man jetzt eigentlich sagen würde, okay, 'ne Wochenbettdepression acht Jahre später ist ja wahrscheinlich irgendwann mal durch. Mhm. Bei dir scheint's nicht so zu sein. Definitiv nicht. Also bei mir ging's dann, nachdem dann der Kleine auf der Welt war, ähm, da hatt ich 'ne Phase, da ging's mir dann erst mal wirklich richtig, richtig gut. Also beziehungsweise nachdem ich halt bei meiner Hausärztin war damals, hab ich, ähm, das erste Antidepressivum geschrieben bekommen und auf das hin ging's mir dann einigermaßen gut. Ich war relativ stabil. Ich hatte noch Symptome, aber es war einigermaßen in Ordnung. Ja, letztendlich ist es dann so weit gekommen, dass ich tatsächlich dann 2019, der Kleine war noch kein, keine zwei Jahre alt, ähm, in die erste psychosomatische Klinik, äh, gegangen bin, in der Hoffnung, die Depression, damals war's 'ne mittelschwere Depression, dann, ähm, wieder in den Griff zu bekommen, auch hoffnungsvollerweise die, das Geburtstrauma aufzuarbeiten, was mir immer noch dann zu schaffen machte. Da war's dann auch letztendlich wieder so: Die Klinik an sich, ähm, hat mir wirklich gutgetan, aber ich hab dann zum Schluss halt mit der Ärztin gesprochen. Die Ärztin meinte, ja, ich könnte, wenn ich mutig wäre, ähm, das Antidepressiva jetzt ausschleichen. Nachdem ich wieder runtergegangen bin von der Dosierung her, ähm, hat's mich dann das zweite Mal zerlegt. Im Endeffekt bin ich dann 2020 im Herbst, äh, in der Psychiatrie in Mainkofen gelandet. Das war dann der erste Aufenthalt in Mainkofen. Dann war ich '21, äh, gleich noch mal da. 2022 war ich zweimal dort, '23 einmal und '24 jetzt zweimal. Und wie lang sind dann jeweils deine Aufenthalte da? Also der längste war tatsächlich jetzt, äh, 2021 mit 'nem halben Jahr. Ansonsten sind's meistens so sieben, acht, mal zwölf Wochen. Letztendlich hab ich jetzt, glaub ich, um die, wenn ich's hochrechne, um die zwei Jahre, ähm, in Kliniken verbracht die letzten neun Jahre, seit die Kinder auf der Welt sind. Was für mich halt auch bedeutet, zwei Jahre, die mir irgendwie fehlen von im Leben. Mit welchen Augen schaust du auf deine Kinder? Ich liebe meine Kinder. Ich weiß, dass ich sie liebe. Das Problem und das Fiese an der Depression ist, dass man's nicht spüren kann, also ich zumindest. Ich weiß, ich liebe sie über alles und meine Kinder sind auch diejenigen, die mich halten. Mhm.Aber ich kann's nicht spüren. Kannst du mit deinen Kindern darüber sprechen? Ja. Die beiden kennen die Depression unter, ähm, Depressionsmonster, weil gibt's 'n ganz nettes Buch und das hatte ich damals gekauft und, ähm, und deswegen nennen sie quasi meine Depression jetzt immer das Depressionsmonster und ich, ähm, sag ihnen halt dann wieder: „Okay, also das Depressionsmonster ist jetzt vielleicht 'n bisschen kleiner, ähm, also geht's mir besser.\" Mhm. Und wenn's wieder größer wird, dann, ähm, wissen sie auch, okay, ähm, kann sein, dass die Mama vielleicht auch wieder in die Klinik muss. An welchen Punkten deines Alltags spielt deine Erkrankung 'ne Rolle? Und ich möchte eigentlich auf die Stelle hinaus: Inwieweit spielt 'ne Stigmatisierung eines solchen Krankheitsbildes 'ne Rolle? Ich hab schon immer so das Gefühl, so im Umkreis, auch wenn mir oder im Umfeld halt, ähm, auch wenn mir das so niemand sagt, aber, ähm, ich habe einfach so den Eindruck, dass Leute vielleicht reden könnten: „Ach, die ist ja einfach nur faul, die will ja nicht\", oder so. Es ist tatsächlich so, dass es mir auch unglaublich viel Kraft kostet, allein die kleine Wohnung hier jetzt irgendwie, ähm, einigermaßen sauber zu halten und ich einfach antriebsmäßig ziemlich gehemmt bin. Ich schaff's im Moment auch nicht mal, so wirklich, äh, spazieren zu gehen oder so. Also es klingt irgendwie so banal, aber es ist so, für einen selbst ist es auch so unverständlich. Warum kann ich jetzt nicht einfach rausgehen und einfach da mal 'ne Runde spazieren gehen? Irgendwas, irgendwann 'n, 'n, 'n unsichtbares Seil bindet mich, weiß ich nicht, an 'n Stuhl, ähm, dass ich sagen muss: „Okay, äh, nee, ich geh jetzt nicht.\" Und also hauptsächlich ist es halt einfach wirklich so, dieses, diese Angst irgendwie über das Gerede: „Ja, die ist faul, die, ähm, will ja einfach nur nicht.\" Aber wenn die Leute einfach mal nur 'n, 'ne Sekunde lang wahrscheinlich oder eine Minute lang in meinen Kopf gucken könnten, ich weiß nicht, was sie dann sagen würden. Was würden Sie sehen, wenn Sie in deinen Kopf gucken in dem Moment jetzt? Grundsätzlich 'ne gewisse Traurigkeit, einfach aufgrund dessen, dass ich nicht so kann, wie ich will. Ich mein, mir geht's im Moment tatsächlich verhältnismäßig gut, das muss ich auch sagen und, ähm, für das muss ich auch dankbar sein. Ich möchte eini-- Also ich möchte wirklich viel. Ich würde gerne arbeiten. Ähm, ich bin jetzt grad am Überlegen, ähm, dass ich jetzt oder eigentlich schon seit Wochen am Überlegen, dass ich zu meiner alten Firma fahre und mit meinem Chef einfach mal spreche und, äh, sag: „Ähm, du, pass auf, ich würd gerne wiederkommen.\" Und er mir ja eh auch immer sagt: „Okay, wenn's ist, meld dich, ähm, irgendwas finden wir.\" Aber im Moment, ich schaff's einfach nicht, weil ich einfach auch ein Problem hab, was Konzentration betrifft, was Erinnerungen betrifft. Es sind so viele Kleinigkeiten, die mir, die ich manchmal tatsächlich auch wieder vergesse, bis sie dann wieder irgendwie mit 'nem Hammer ähm, plötzlich wieder auftauchen. Du hast gerade gesagt, im Moment geht's dir verhältnismäßig gut. Ja. Wie hast du das geschafft? Also was tust du aktiv, damit's dir gut geht? Na ja, also ich denke, ich bin recht gut eingestellt, was Medikamente betrifft. Das heißt, du nimmst nach wie vor Medikamente? Ich nehme Medikamente. Ich nehme viele Medikamente. Also ist gleich leider nicht nur eins. Dann hab ich 'ne wunderbare Psychologin, mit der ich wöchentlich, äh, Termine habe. Ja, im Moment, ich versuche einfach irgendwie die Depression so 'n bisschen auszutricksen, oder was heißt, das geht, funktioniert grundsätzlich nicht, aber ich versuch zumindest, dass ich, ähm, so wie gestern, wir waren gestern, äh, am Herrenkemssee, äh, mit den Kindern. Ich war unendlich kaputt und mich hat's zeitweise gedreht und ich war einfach, weil die letzten Tage einfach anstrengend waren, aber ich wollte es halt dann einfach unbedingt, ähm, für die Kinder, dass sie nicht nur immer den Papa irgendwie im, in Erinnerung haben, wenn's irgendwie an Ausflüge oder so was geht, sondern auch mich dann irgendwie mal in Erinnerung haben. Ich mein, sie überfordern mich auch komplett. Das ist so dieses zweischneidige Schwert. Sie sind bei mir und wenn sie bei mir sind, dann, ähm, ja, bin ich maximal überfordert in der Regel. Und wenn ich aber die Kinder nicht habe, dann, ähm, ja, weiß ich nichts mit mir anzufangen. Dann, ähm, wander ich von einem Fleckchen vom Schreibtisch irgendwie dann rüber zum Esstisch und wieder zurück, weil lesen geht im Moment nicht, was ich eigentlich gerne gemacht hab. Ich kann im Moment zumindest einigermaßen funktionieren und das ist schon, schon viel wert. Wobei ich auch aufpassen muss. Also ich darf mich nicht überfordern, weil sonst geht der Schuss nach hinten los. Mhm. Wie äußert sich das dann? Es sind einfach die Symptome, die dann wieder intensiver werden. Es kommen dann auch Symptome hinzu, über die man nicht so gerne spricht, wie Suizidgedanken. Das ist einfach dann, und die Traurigkeit und die Antriebslosigkeit wird noch, noch schwerer und man fühlt sich einfach wie Blei. Es ist so, ich, ich hab mal 'n Bild gemalt, ähm, wenn ich nicht wusste, wie ich's irgendwie beschreiben sollte und da hab ich's eigentlichSo 'n bisschen gemahlen, so 'ne, es kommt so 'ne Welle über einen drüber und, ähm, man sitzt so im Nebel und dann sieht man einfach nur noch 'n Tunnel, der einfach dunkel ist, aber kein, kein Licht irgendwie am Ende des Tunnel. Und außenrum ist so 'ne Glaskuppel und man kommt nicht raus ins, ins Leben. Gibt es einen Ort, einen Sehnsuchtsort, einen Platz, an den du gerne gehst, wenn's dir nicht gut geht oder wenn's dir gut geht? 'N Platz, an dem du gern alleine bist, wo die Gedanken frei sind? Mhm. Ja, so einen gibt's tatsächlich. Und zwar ist nicht weit von hier 'n kleines Waldstück und, ähm, da ist 'ne kleine Bank. Auf die hab ich mich immer gesetzt, wenn's mir wirklich gar nicht gut ging. Manchmal war's gut, dass ich dort war und andererseits war's manchmal auch nicht so gut, weil da konnt ich auch, ja, man grübelt ja in der Depression. Meistens hat's mir aber gutgetan, einfach da zu sitzen und, ähm, es sind viele Tränen auf dieser Bank geflossen. Könntest du dir vorstellen, mit uns zu dieser Bank zu gehen? Ja, kann ich. Wollen wir's machen? Gerne. Spielt Religion für dich 'ne Rolle? Sagen wir so, ich glaube, dass es was gibt, aber ich glaub's nicht unbedingt so, wie die Kirche es erzählt. Hat dir das in deiner Situation irgendwo Halt gegeben oder hat's dich eher verzweifeln lassen? Weder noch. Also ehrlich gesagt, die ganze Zeit über war für mich, ja, der Glaube nicht wirklich relevant. Mhm. Du hast ja, ähm, erzählt, dass als es losging mit, mit deiner Wochenbettdepression, du sehr, sehr viel Halt und Unterstützung auch von der Familie, von deinem Mann bekommen hast. Nun gehört ja leider auch dazu, als wir vorhin bei dir in der Wohnung waren, das ist keine gemeinsame Wohnung mehr. Das ist richtig, ja. Das heißt also, eure Ehe hat deine Erkrankung nicht überstanden. Nein. Was war der Auslöser? Warum ging's nicht mehr? Na ja, ich war früher wirklich 'n lebensfroher, lustiger Mensch, etwas schlanker. Ja, mit der Depression hab ich mich wohl so sehr verändert, dass es einfach nicht mehr tragbar war. Irgendwie haben wir uns halt einfach auch auseinandergelebt. Und in der Zeit, wo ich in den Kliniken war, die ganzen insgesamt zwei Jahre über, war er ja ständig allein mit den Jungs. Vor allem auch, was Kommunikation betrifft, da bin ich sehr schlecht. Mhm. Ich kann eigentlich nicht unbedingt gut mit ihm reden, wenn ich irgendwie 'n Problem hatte oder so. Er hat mir immer gesagt, ich soll halt Bescheid geben, wenn's mir nicht gut geht und so weiter, aber ich konnt's eigentlich nicht. Und oft hat er's halt irgendwie anderweitig gemerkt, bis ich dann irgendwann mal was gesagt habe, war's eigentlich meistens zu spät. Und ja, irgendwie hat's einfach scheinbar nicht sollen sein. Die Kinder sind bei deinem Mann, die beiden Jungs? Ähm, nicht nur. Also ich hab sie dreimal die Woche über Nacht bei mir in der Wohnung und die restliche Zeit sind sie aber bei meinem Mann. Wobei, wenn der arbeitet, ähm, unter der Woche, bin natürlich dann schon auch ich für die Kinder zuständig. Wobei auch da, ähm, mir meine Mutter und meine Schwiegermutter, ähm, auch dabei behilflich ist. Mhm. Wie lange, wie lange seid ihr denn zusammen gewesen bis zu dem Punkt, wo es nicht mehr ging? Fünfzehn Jahre. Vielleicht ist es 'ne Chance, 'ne Chance, dass die Depression auch irgendwie besser wird, wenn ich für mich etwas mehr Ruhe auch bekomme oder etwas mehr Abstand bekomme zu allem so 'n bisschen. Ah, wir sind an deiner Bank. Wir sind an meiner Bank, genau. Wie oft hast du hier gesessen? Tja, unzählige Male. Ich weiß es ehrlich gesagt nicht. Und mit welchen Gedanken bist du hierher gekommen? Schwere Gedanken. Unfassbar schwierige Gedanken. Kannst du uns mitnehmen, welche Gedanken das gewesen sind? Es waren Suizidgedanken mit dabei. Es ging oft um den Sinn meines Lebens. Ging dann natürlich darum, dass ich aber auch meine Kinder nicht allein lassen will. Im Grunde sah ich eigentlich keine, keine Chance, dass sich das jemals wieder, wieder bessern würde. Es war einfach ziemlich dunkel alles. Wenn du sagst, es war, gibt es denn Dinge, die dich hoffnungsvoll stimmen, wo du sagst, hier sehe ich Licht am Horizont? Mhm. Na ja, ich hab's jetzt geschafft, dass ich jetzt sechs Monate nicht in der Klinik war. Das ist schon mal sehr gut. Nachdem es mir jetzt im Moment einigermaßen gut geht, hab ich die Hoffnung, dass ich vielleicht, wenn ich Glück habe, auch nie mehr irgendwie so tief falle, wie's damals passiert ist. Gut, ich mein, ich werd kein Kind mehr bekommen, aber, ähm, ich hätte mir damals einfach früh genug Hilfe suchen müssen und die letzten Jahre über teilweise auch und nicht erst warten, bis es wirklich komplett dunkel ist über, um, um einen rum. Ich hab 'ne Frage, die klingt vielleicht brutal, du musst sie auch nicht beantworten, aber war jemals der Gedanke da, vielleicht wär's besser gewesen, kein zweites Kind zu bekommen? Ehrlich gesagt bin ich mir nicht sicher, ob ich den Gedanken jemals hatte. Ich glaub nicht, weil ich nieMeinen Kindern die Schuld an der Situation gegeben hab. Grundsätzlich hätte ich einfach vielleicht keine Kinder bekommen sollen. Ich hab immer das Gefühl, ich bin einfach nicht so, nicht gut genug als Mama. Ich genüge nicht. Ich, ja, mit der Krankheit und so weiter. Wobei ohne meine Kinder weiß ich nicht, ob ich ehrlich gesagt noch hier sitzen würde. Trotzdem es dir, wie wir ja jetzt auch grade mitkriegen, nicht immer gut geht und du deine Dämonen nach wie vor hast, ähm, die Kraft gefunden, die Erfahrungen, die du gesammelt hast mit deiner Krankheit, durchaus auch an andere weiterzugeben. Du bist in einem Verein. Kannst du darüber ein bisschen was erzählen? Ja, ähm, ja, der Verein nennt sich Schatten und Licht und ist ein Verein, äh, zu psychischen Erkrankungen rund um die Geburt eines Kindes. Und da steh ich als Beraterin auf der Beraterinnen- und Selbsthilfegruppenliste. Ja, einfach aus dem Grund, weil ich halt irgendwie hoffe, und wenn's nur eine Frau ist, der ich das irgendwie auch ersparen kann, dass sie zu lange wartet, halt die Hoffnung habe, da vielleicht irgendwie ein bisschen was zu bewirken. Das wär mir wichtig. Eine Wochenbettdepression ist natürlich nichts, was, was so enden muss, wie's bei mir jetzt geendet ist. Oder meine, meine Geschichte geht ja noch weiter dann irgendwann, aber sie ist eigentlich wirklich gut behandelbar. Das ist ja das Schlimme an dem Ganzen, dass man wirklich, ähm, wenn man sie frühzeitig behandeln lässt, auch nicht unbedingt, ähm, dann so enden muss, wie ich jetzt geendet bin, sage ich mal. Inwieweit hilft dir diese Beschäftigung, also dass du anderen helfen kannst, inwieweit hilft dir das selbst auch? Ich helfe grundsätzlich gerne anderen Menschen. Ja, für mich ist es irgendwie wichtig. Ich kann nicht sagen, wieso, aber, ähm, ja, ich helfe einfach gerne. Und der Witz an der Geschichte ist, dass ich mir eigentlich nicht unbedingt gerne helfen lasse. Ja, ich hab da vielleicht einfach 'ne gewisse Genugtuung an, an gewisse, ein gewisses Erfolgserlebnis, oder nee, Erfolgserlebnis ist nicht der richtige Ausdruck. Erfüllung? Ja. Ja, irgendwie 'ne gewisse Erfüllung, wenn ich einfach weiß, okay, ich konnte jetzt vielleicht jemanden einfach nur, und wenn ich ihn in den Arm genommen hab, einfach nur dadurch irgendwie helfen. Du hast grade zwei Dinge gesagt. Du hast von Hoffnung gesprochen und du hast gesagt, deine Geschichte ist ja hier noch nicht auserzählt. Machen wir mal den vorsichtigen Versuch und denken jetzt in die Zukunft. In einer idealen Welt, wenn du dir was wünschen könntest, wo würdest du dich in fünf, in zehn Jahren sehen? Ganz klar in Australien mit meinen Kindern. Australien ist mein Herzensland und, ähm, ich war, ja, Australien ist einfach mein Land. Ich weiß auch nicht. Es ist einfach, ist einfach so. Ich danke dir sehr, sehr herzlich, dass du uns so tief in dich hast reinblicken lassen und dass du uns mitgenommen hast an diesen ganz besonderen Ort. Und ich, äh, drücke dir die Daumen. Ich wünsche dir von Herzen, dass du A, die Kraft findest, die Zuversicht findest, auch die Selbstachtsamkeit und die Selbstliebe findest, äh, genau diesen Wunsch vielleicht auf eine gewisse Art und Weise wahrwerden zu lassen. Und vor allem wünsche ich dir, dass du deine Kinder immer an deiner Seite hast. Danke schön. Gerne. Vielen lieben Dank, dass wir mit dir hierhergehen durften. Danke. Und dass wir dich so begleiten durften. Alles Gute für dich. Danke sch��n. 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