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subjects or whether Dr. Romberg had any influence on it. A.Romberg certainly had no influence whatever on that because Romberg was a civilian and could not give any orders in concentration camps. Q.Would it have been possible for Romberg to consult the files on the prisoners to obtain information about the sentence pas... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,710,000 | 1,710,500 |
for that purpose. Q.And what was the point of view of the interrogation? A.I was the only non-scientist there in a special camp for scientists and finally I was asked about scientific matters. Q.What do you believe that the interrogator was interested in proving to you? MR. HARDY:Your Honor, these interrogations the wi... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,710,450 | 1,710,950 |
buy a low pressure chamber of our own in case the Luftwaffe refused to send their low pressure chamber to Dachau. Rascher said this would be the best thing and then Reichsfuehrer wouldn't have to let the Luftwaffe lead him around by the nose. When I had this assignment I called up Dr. Romberg in the DVL. I did not know... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,710,900 | 1,711,400 |
and no low pressure chamber could be made available because it was urgently needed for testing pilots, so Rascher could do nothing against this explanation of mine, because Rascher was known by the medical inspectorate but not by the people in charge of the research at the Luftwaffe. QWitness, did you ever talk to your... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,711,350 | 1,711,850 |
his correspondence with Rascher, was not only interested in carrying out these experiments but took an active part in them. I, therefore, ask permission, that the witness be given permission to make these statements. (Mr. Hardy rises to make objection) THE PRESIDENT:The Tribunal is of the opinion that the character of ... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,711,800 | 1,712,300 |
Q. 1943? A.Yes. Q.How about the month? A.My office, the Reichs Business Office and from there I was transferred in the month of August to Weissenfels. Q.When was the first time that you saw or spoke to the defendant Dr. Becker-Freyseng or even heard of him? A.Here in this trial. Q.Did you or one of your subordinates ha... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,712,250 | 1,712,750 |
asked Sievers to come to me several times to give me information;" what do you have to say about that? A.I must say that Poppendick never asked me to come and see him; I made his acquaintance only in 1944. Q.In other words, you never consulted Poppendick about this matter nor did he ever call on you? A.No. Q.No further... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,712,700 | 1,713,200 |
you, so to speak, were officer on guard? AAs to what was going to be done here, all I can say here is that I heard something was going to be done with sea water and I put that down in my diary. QIn ether words, your entry in the diary does not correspond to facts? AThat is quite so, and as I said yesterday in my direct... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,713,150 | 1,713,650 |
human subjects whom you saw at Dachau? ANo, I cannot tell you the names. QHow did you happen to ask these two experimental subjects whether or not they had volunteered for the experiments? AI said that both from Himmler and from Rascher I had been told that those were volunteers. I wanted to make sure of this for mysel... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,713,600 | 1,714,100 |
feeling precisely because I knew the difference in the case of these high altitude experiments, since I knew Romberg was a very circumspect and punctilious person, and on the other hand I heard Rascher express himself brutally, saying the persons in question were completely unimportant, and it was for this reason I sai... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,714,050 | 1,714,550 |
structure and plan of the individual groups was aimed at a federated union of the various German provinces, the creation of a free German government which would rest on a basis that would permit an understanding to be reached with the Allies. QDo you know of any occasion when non-German nationals were used as experimen... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,714,500 | 1,715,000 |
to: "1. Insects" - doesn't interest us; "2. Potato beetles" - doesn't interest us either; "3. 'Poison experiments in connection with Reichsfuehrer SS". Number 7 reads: "Professor Blome is being pressed anew to test the poison now." You were already asked about this entry during your direct examination, Dr. Sievers, and... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,714,950 | 1,715,450 |
when Dr. Blome was interrogated on the stand we discussed at some length the card index file which was kept at the Reich Research Council for Dr. Blome and Sauerbruch. You were present at this discussion. This concerns two documents, one is Document 690 concerning Blome and the other is 691, Sauerbruch's card index fil... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,715,400 | 1,715,900 |
through Dr. Sauerbruch who alone was competent for that. But with regard to the Hirt assignment I can tell you something of material importance. In addition to this card index there are copies of the original research assignments; in the card index cards, for reasons of space, there is only a very brief notation of the... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,715,850 | 1,716,350 |
a layman, can you, because of your activities in the Reich Research Council, confirm that an assignment, such as for example, rewarming human beings, or effecting changes in the human organism, does not belong to Department 15 but to Department 10, which is General and Classical Medicine? You have already said this mor... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,716,300 | 1,716,800 |
view of the material here submitted about human experiments in all countries and during all periods of time, have I realized that this is a series of most difficult problems, which has persuaded me that my attitude heretofore has been onesided. Even though after the Easter conversation in 1942 the effort was made by va... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,716,750 | 1,717,250 |
Movement; now, inasmuch as you were a member of this Resistance Movement and apparently a strong member, what was the reason for the Resistance Movement being so intent in overthrowing the Nazi Regime; what did they have against the Nazi Regime? Do you understand the question? A.We rejected the centralized form of Gove... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,717,200 | 1,717,700 |
on this subject. In the interrogation before the Commission I was, because of an objection on the part of the Prosecution, not allowed to talk about these matters. In the IMT also I was very limited, and when I made a written statement on this subject in August of 1946, I did not hear anything further. In other words, ... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,717,650 | 1,718,150 |
members ran into one or two thousand; now whether or not there were subordinates among them, I don't know and I don't know them by name or personally. Concerning the active members I don't know this. Rascher was a member of the Luftwaffe and a University Professor, therefore, I cannot say just what the subordinating re... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,718,100 | 1,718,600 |
Rascher in the instance of high altitude experiments, by Milch for freezing experiments, perhaps by Hirt for lost experiments, or by various other individuals to secure human beings or to have made available inmates of the concentration camps for the purpose of conducting the experiments, now would Himmler, or you, or ... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,718,550 | 1,719,050 |
great deal; you fully realize, of course, that the SS had experimental research problems, that the Wehrmacht had experimental research problems, the civilian sector had experimental research problems; and due to the chaotic conditions in German from 1941 to 1945 when all were engaged in all-out warfare; it must have be... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,719,000 | 1,719,500 |
are two lay-men, Himmler in this case would have called Grawitz, but if you or I brought him a proposal made by a professor, then that authority would have sufficed for him and he himself would have decided the matter. Q Do you recall the affidavit of Oswald Pohl where he had a paragraph pertaining to your name, where ... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,719,450 | 1,719,950 |
and thus the dwelling accomodations made an exellent impression; but it is not just a clean house alone, that makes life tolerable. As I said, what struck me was everyone thrown together here. Q Did you see, any of the inmates drinking champagne? A No, I did not see that. Q Well now, we have been told that all the inma... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,719,900 | 1,720,400 |
now in the course of all of your visits, how many of the visits that you had, are in the category of an official visit? For instance, you were with Himmler one time at Dachau. I assume that would have been an official visit. Now how were conditions that you saw? AI was never in Dachau with Himmler. QDidn't you go with ... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,720,350 | 1,720,850 |
the war ended or when the resistance movement had accomplished their objective, if you had had that good fortune, did you make attempts to save the files of these criminal experiments, or did you make any attempt to retain this information so that you could aid in bringing home to the German people just what the basic ... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,720,800 | 1,721,300 |
Allies will find it"? I would have been shot the next day. QWell now you state here in the letter that you would leave remnants of these corpses around tho Strassbourg laboratories which would indicate they were apparently left in the anatomical institute by the French, that is a fine how-do-you-do-, isn't it, trying t... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,721,250 | 1,721,750 |
of the month, and if no further notice will have arrived there in the noontime, I shall see to it that all letters mailed to you recently shall be dispatched once again. "Paris as well as London is taking quite active an interest in the Anatomic Institute of Strasbourg and regret that you have not been seized. In the m... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,721,700 | 1,722,200 |
interfere in matters concerning budgets, or other organization matters. In this manner I was already able to prevent two different things. In the year 1939 already Himmler wanted to create a Cancer Research Institute under the charge of Professor Holtz, and wanted to affiliate it to the Ahnenerbe. At that time Professo... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,722,150 | 1,722,650 |
that this was to be carried out at Natzweiler. QThen consistent with your thought and your statement, did you make arrangements with, we will say Gluecks, Brigadefuehrer Gluecks, who was in charge of the concentration camps at that time? Did you make arrangements with Bluecks to get a station for Military Scientific Re... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,722,600 | 1,723,100 |
Natzweiler. During their activity in the concentration camp Natzweiler they are to be provided with accommodations and board." And now will you turn to paragraph 5 in the same document, wherein you state: "The experiments which are to be performed on prisoners are to be carried out in four rooms of an already existing ... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,723,050 | 1,723,550 |
proposed by the Reichsfuehrer-SS." QNow let us turn to DocumentNO-935which is offered as Prosecution Exhibit No. 481 for identification. This document bears your initials, doesn't it, Mr. Sievers? AYes. QWell, now, this document is dated 27 August, which is a short time prior to the time the document was submitted to y... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,723,500 | 1,724,000 |
possibility that the research ordered by the Reichsfuehrer-SS in the concentration camp Natzweiler be carried out. Working conditions on the whole are extraordinarily favorable. The difficulty lies in the reaching of the camp. For the time being, the scientists ordered to carry out the investigation, Professor Dr. Hirt... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,723,950 | 1,724,450 |
the basis of the mutual conversations between Hirt and myself, and then between me and Wuest who was my departmental chief, and it was all suggested to Himmler. QWho suggested it to Himmler that they found an institute to be attached to the Ahnenerbe Society? AI suggested that to Himmler on the basis of my previous con... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,724,400 | 1,724,900 |
June 1942. QAnd the date of the order by Himmler establishing the Institute for Military Scientific Research is 7 July 1942, is it not? AYes, that is also true. From this passage it becomes evident that I am here referring to Himmler's decision dated the 25th of March, which I already mentioned earlier, where he ordere... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,724,850 | 1,725,350 |
Tropical Institute; Naval Medical Officer and Consulting Hygienist of the Bulgarian Army." Now was it usual for people to request that you intervene for them to gain admission to the concentration camps? AThis letter constitutes a reply to an inquiry which I directed to a number of institutes and researchers at the beg... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,725,300 | 1,725,800 |
think I probably transmitted that to Brandt, and if Himmler decided to sent it to Genzken, it may have been that later I transmitted it to Genzken, but I can't remember it. QWell, we will look again at another section of this same document, which is page 3 of this document. It is dated 22 January 1942, addressed to Pro... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,725,750 | 1,726,250 |
have had to receive an order from Grandt or Himmler, is that right? A.Yes, that would have been a prerequisite. Q.Maybe page two of this same document will clarify that problem for us. This is document, section is dated 19 January, and was sent for information to: The Ahnenerbe", and this document says: That the matter... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,726,200 | 1,726,700 |
Ruff, for the first time? A.Here during the trial. Q.You never met him when he was working with Rascher? A.No, I only knew that he was the chief of the German experimental station for aviation. Q.And you met Romberg when you mot Rascher, is that right? About the same time? A.Yes. Q.That was the first time you had ever ... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,726,650 | 1,727,150 |
Is that SI that appears there under the notation, Wolfram Sievers? A.Yes, that is my initial. Q.And the date thereon is the 26 May 1939? A.Yes, it concerns the crystallization procedure with reference to the cancer work which Rascher intended to carry out. Q.That is right. A.The Reichsfuehrer was in favor of that as ca... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,727,100 | 1,727,600 |
of the Ahnenerbe, although this was not any voluntary action on my part. Finally, under difficulty I had an opportunity to speak before the I.M.T. and tell them what I really was, and I told you this morning what difficulties I had in that respect through you. Q.Now, Mr. Sievers, you appeared before the Commission whic... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,727,550 | 1,728,050 |
A man like Hirt, who was so close to Himmler and who enjoyed his particular confidence, always found it necessary to live up to this relationship in the tone that he adopted in his relations with me. In my direct examination I stated that not only from the beginning of 1944 on did I have the feeling of being watched ov... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,728,000 | 1,728,500 |
official trip was translated as an official round trip, and this is one of the repeated and unfair interpretations on the part of the prosecution. Q.I can assure you that the interpretation was not meant to mislead. A.Nevertheless it did so. Q.Your note of the 26th of June, 1942, Exhibit 481 contains... In other words,... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,728,450 | 1,728,950 |
letterhead of the Reichsfuehrer SS. Q.Now, page 4 of this document was submitted to you by the prosecution with the accusation that your first statement that you had never spoken to Dr. Genzken was not true. Because of this notation here "with reference to our previous telephonic conversation", I should like to ask a f... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,728,900 | 1,729,400 |
in Rascher's case with material courtesy, and precisely because of the close relations between the Rascher family and Himmler I was particularly careful since he was always ready to turn to Himmler directly if, in his opinion, he had any reason for complaint. DR. WEISGERBER:Mr. President, that concludes my redirect exa... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,729,350 | 1,729,850 |
gone off in the experiments, and whether nothing had happened to the experimental subjects. To my surprise, since this contradicted what I had observed at the experiments myself, he said that a couple of persons had died. Then I asked him "How come?" He said Himmler had asked him to carry out a few extreme experiments ... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,729,800 | 1,730,300 |
in Niederbroecking near Starnberg? AYes. QYou have the title of Doctor. Which one? ADoctor of Natural Philosophy. QWere you ever a member of the Nazi Party, the SS or the SA? ANo, I belonged neither to the Nazi party nor to any of its organizations or affiliations. QIn the Defendant Sievers' diary, an SS Oberscharfuehr... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,730,250 | 1,730,750 |
some sort of loose contract with the Ahnenerbe and that I should discuss this matter with the Reichs business manager of the Ahnenerbe, namely Mr. Sievers. That was the first time I heard his name. That was the contents of our discussion, and Wuest said that Sievers would get in touch with me. QDid you then have a talk... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,730,700 | 1,731,200 |
"in this connection I am wondering whether we couldn't begin the experiments most rapidly if we used Dachau installations." Now, in this first talk with Sievers there was no mention of Dachau. Otherwise I never should have made the suggestion that I find a building through private agencies, nor should I after this conv... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,731,150 | 1,731,650 |
in Dachau, such as I had intended, but could simply get a barracks, and he asked whether the entomological laboratory could be housed in a barracks. I then told Sievers that an entomological laboratory just like any others could be housed in a barracks, and that I had no objections to locating the research institute in... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,731,600 | 1,732,100 |
raw material situation was such the previous used means were not available any more in sufficient quantities. QDid you ever work with Professor Schilling in Dachau? ANo, I did not work with Professor Schilling, nor did I know him personally, but I found out in Dachau itself in conversations that in the camp a Professor... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,732,050 | 1,732,550 |
but merely the furnishing of space. I met Professor Ploetner, he was introduced to me, and we went out to the barracks, which at that time had only been half completed. QDoctor, I believe that will suffice. APerhaps I may add that Dr. Ploetner looked at the barracks and said he did not have sufficient space there. QDid... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,732,500 | 1,733,000 |
Sievers, one day asked me, when visiting me, whether it was possible for me to furnish a room. We were then concerned with a number of chemists who were to carry out chemical examinations and had to be accommodated for two to three weeks. He said that the gentlemen would bring all the equipment with them that they only... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,732,950 | 1,733,450 |
QThis conference regarding the furnishing of the room took place on the 20th of July, 1944, on the basis of Sievers' diary. Do you know whether Sievers went to Dachau after this period of time? ANo. DR. WEISGERBER:Mr. President, I have concluded the examination of this witness. 5882 THE PRESIDENT:Are there any question... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,733,400 | 1,733,900 |
in every laboratory. I had a great lack of technical assistants. I only had one who was not very good, and I repeatedly asked Mr. Sievers to get me at least another two technical assistants since I could not make any progress in any other way. As a result, one day these two ladies arrived, Schmidt and Bennemann. They h... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,733,850 | 1,734,350 |
I thought originally. QDid you know where Professor Beiglboeck came from? ANo. I hadn't known his name or where he came from. QHe was a Vienna boy, wasn't he? AI don't know that. QIt is rather a substantial ride from Vienna to Dachau, isn't it? AThat is not too bad from Vienna to Munich. You can do that normally within... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,734,300 | 1,734,800 |
discussion was the cooperation not only in the field of vermin control but also in the research sphere of Rascher, and with regard to the use of gastein water in cases of freezing as well as in various operational fields of the Hygiene Institute. As had already been laid down in the interview with SSUntersturmfuehrer, ... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,734,750 | 1,735,250 |
will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing. (The witness repeated the oath) You my be seated. DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. WEISGERBER: QIf you prefer to answer in the English language, please do so. Your name is Franz Borkenau? AYes. QYou were born in Vienna on 15 December 1900? AYes. QAnd you now live at... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,735,200 | 1,735,700 |
left England and returned to the Continent. QWitness, the defendant Wolfram Sievers, whom I am representing here is relying on the fact in his defense that already prior to 1933 and then during the entire subsequent period of the national socialist regime he was a member of the resistance groups headed by Dr. Hielscher... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,735,650 | 1,736,150 |
to testify as to the personality of Hielscher, and it appears that that is all he is going to do. If that is the case, I think this testimony is irrelevant here. If he is going to testify to the personality of the Defendant Sievers, he may continue, but this manner of examination I don't think is taking up the valuable... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,736,100 | 1,736,600 |
Hielscher was active. But about Dr. Hielscher. THE PRESIDENT:Very well, counsel. Very well, counsel. I wasn't sure whether the witness knew anything about that or not. The witness may testify as to the existence of non-existence of a genuine, bonafide resistance movement in Germany during the years testified to by the ... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,736,550 | 1,737,050 |
reasons you established a close contact with him. My question is, did you clearly realize Hielscher's attitude toward the National Socialism at that time--that was around 1930? AI don't think Hielscher at that time took the Nazis very seriously, as in fact few people did. I think he regarded Hitler as a mountebank, alm... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,737,000 | 1,737,500 |
that thing could not stand, that that thing would not last, that it had no basis. I remember that we were very eager to get details about his views. He drew out of his cupboard a list of the members of the Harren club which was then the real power behind the scene. We saw that, and he said something like, "Well, now lo... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,737,450 | 1,737,950 |
problem directly, so we sat there, not saying much or really saying very little, because it was already an atmosphere where discussing underground techniques on a possibly near future -one wouldn't say more than was necessary and also Hielscher did not mention any names. In fact if he had I think we should have been do... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,737,900 | 1,738,400 |
you had with Hielscher, the details of which you so well remember, took place in the fall of 1932? AIt was my last holiday I spent in Berlin. QYou were surprised at the very sharp attitude and the very precise method of combatting the danger as Hielscher described it to you? AWell, if you mean by "Scharfe Einstellung" ... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,738,350 | 1,738,850 |
in it." That, of course, was guess work. That was not based on any news. Until I met him again when I returned - Q.Doctor, after you returned to Germany, did you find that your judgment, respectively views abroad, about Hielscher was confirmed in any way? I met Hielscher again, or more exactly I ran into him in the off... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,738,800 | 1,739,300 |
as a State would be superfluous. That, of course, in his case is founded on very strong views about decentralization in general. He had always been an adversary of large towns and large industries. I don't follow him on that point and his view about political federalization hangs together - belongs to his views about i... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,739,250 | 1,739,750 |
over the Government? A I was never a member of that organization, for reason of basic political differences if no other. Q Can you say how many people were members of this Hielscher Resistance Movement? A No. I couldn't. No such details were ever given in talks with outsiders, I am quite sure, I can answer one thing, t... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,739,700 | 1,740,200 |
be used by the resistance movement to practical advantage in actually, physically overthrowing and replacing its leaders? A I think if such a man were sufficiently high in the ranks of the nazi movement he could impart every kind of necessary information and nothing well timed and well conceived could be done with such... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,740,150 | 1,740,650 |
all. QI see. ANor was any name mentioned to me except the name of Plaas, one of Hielcher's friends, whom I mentioned repeatedly together with him. As I said already, I should not have taken him seriously if he had divulged names and numbers. QThen you are not in a position to know, of your own knowledge, that Sievers w... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,740,600 | 1,741,100 |
and in the year of 1923, standing strongly under the impression of the murder of Rathenau, went over to the social democratic party. I had a few friends at Hamburg who persuaded me to do that. I will mention their names; they were Egon Wertheimer, Franzhofen who is now a resident of the United States, a professor there... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,741,050 | 1,741,550 |
the year of 1938? AI really do not know to what you are referring. QDid not Hielscher at any time tell you that he had received a research assignment by the Ahnenerbe? AYes, he told me that. However, I do not believe that was in the year 1938; as far as I remember, that only occurred after the outbreak of the war. I ma... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,741,500 | 1,742,000 |
action, but one could realize the entiro extent of this action at that time, if I may state my opinion I must say that it was only after the capitulation that I became acquainted that close friends of nine belonged to that group. A good friend of mine, by the name of Krouzberger, at Munich, belonged to the Ministorialr... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,741,950 | 1,742,450 |
be sure that at such a moment one would not break down physically and psychologically and testify to matters which would incriminate a number of people and cause their death. As for the second part of your question - Q.In this connection I want to ask you another question. Is this also the reason why Hielscher mentione... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,742,400 | 1,742,900 |
had been under arrest for three months, and had now been released. I took the next opportunity to speak to him, which occurred around the middle of January when passing through Berlin riding from the East Front to the Western Front. I had a long and very impressive conversation with him on which occasion he described t... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,742,850 | 1,743,350 |
threatened by the Gestapo and the SD and that absolute secrecy was required. I understood my duties with in this movement, that I looked among my old friends for people who would be suited later after the fall of the Hitler Regime to take important positions, and, on the other hand, when I met now people, perhaps in th... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,743,300 | 1,743,800 |
had to choose between the two, to exterminate the man who was the executive, that is, Himmler. Because without Hitler Himmler would be quite capable of carrying on the regime but Hitler would not be able to continue without Himmler is executive power. QAnd did Hielscher tell you that within his circle each plans were b... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,743,750 | 1,744,250 |
I know Hielscher and I believe I know him well. He would not take the part of any one of whose integrity he was not convinced, and the concept of integrity in his opinion includes a definite rejection cf everything belonging to the Hitler regime. I might add that I remember a conversation when he told me that one of hi... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,744,200 | 1,744,700 |
who disposed of weapons. The SS was unimportant, especially during the war, and in the case of the Wehmacht one could expect that large parts of it very quickly would be willing to cooperate. Q.I have no further questions. THE PRESIDENT:Any question of this witness on the part of any defense counsel? There being none, ... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,744,650 | 1,745,150 |
89. This is an affidavit of Dr. Lothar Mischke, about Hielscher's work in the resistance movement. The same subject is discussed in Document Sievers 37 which I offer as Sievers Exhibit 27. This is on page 89-90. Document 36 ... just a minute, excuse me .... Document Sievers 36 on page 89-90, that is Exhibit Sievers 26.... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,745,100 | 1,745,600 |
definite political party with the intention of combatting the NSDAP? A.No. I considered it impossible for any of the 33 German parties, with their bureaucratic methods, to be able to prevent a fascist dictatorsnip, or if it had come into existence, to overthrow it. Q.What methods did you thing were the right ones? A.Th... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,745,550 | 1,746,050 |
within the machine, what were the leaders doing, what plans were being made, what organization was being set up. Q.Then first of all you wanted to find out what intentions the NSDAP had? A.Yes, and specifically in the youth work, because that had to be the most important in the long-run. Q.Now, in 1931 Sievers resigned... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,746,000 | 1,746,500 |
the Ahnenerbe, and to get as close to him as possible. We, that is my group, were among the people who very early recognized the special personal danger of Himmler, and in the second place from the beginning we had been determined that one day we would have to overthrow the Party regime by force, and for that purpose o... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,746,450 | 1,746,950 |
it become necessary for Sievers to protect you personally; I speak of this, since you said before that Sievers work --- you wanted to explain first how he helped and protected members of your organization, and first of all yourself. AHe protected me when on the 2d of September 1944 I was suspected of participating in t... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,746,900 | 1,747,400 |
that prisoners in order to make them testify were thrown into a bath of water wit 80 degrees heat and the skin was pooled off their bodies. One must imagine that none of us could be sure that he would be able to keep quiet and what he would testify under torture, or under the pressure of any which was introduced to him... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,747,350 | 1,747,850 |
work. Q.Now, I think it would he desirable that you describe to the Tribunal how you cooperated with circles that were of your opinion, how you established contact with them, and to what extent your collaboration was possible with other groups? A.Our group maintained contact and cooperated with Socialists; I mention Dr... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,747,800 | 1,748,300 |
window to ascertain if anyone was on the street. We found out through a member of our organization in what manner a hidden microphone could be built into the wall, the flat was searched carefully, and this is the way we worked. Q.What did Sievers do in order to further the activities of your organization? A.For instanc... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,748,250 | 1,748,750 |
number of generals were ready to remove the N.S. system immediately after the assassination, for a elimination of just these two people themselves would have no political purpose whatsoever. We did not intend to carry out a Putsch but we intended to remove a political system, a political order, and for that reason we h... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,748,700 | 1,749,200 |
sense as to think of him in that connection. Thank God one could enter negotiations with them because it was sure that nobody was behind these people in the country, but it did seem that these gentlemen had many foreign political relationships and it would be advisable to find out what in effect was behind it all, and ... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,749,150 | 1,749,650 |
was submitted by the Prosecution. This is Document NO-975, Prosecution Exhibit 479. It is a letter sent by Sievers to Dr. Hirt. Would you please look at that letter? AYes. QThis letter contains a tone of voice which seems to indicate that he tried to cover Dr. Hirt's activity. Dr. Hirt was working in the Anatomical Ins... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,749,600 | 1,750,100 |
concentrate on the decisive points in order to finally remove everything, and, as I have said before, there was no other way into the staff of the ReichsfuehrerSS. We, therefore, summarized in case Sievers resigned because of that case, it was sure that he would be eliminated and probably that would also be true of all... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,750,050 | 1,750,550 |
told about his sabotage of the low pressure chamber. He told about his interference in the malaria experiments; how he placed Ploetner against Schilling. He told me that he succeeded in getting a group of thirty inmates for experimental purposes from Dachau to some other place at Hodensee, and, furthermore, that he fin... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,750,500 | 1,751,000 |
also a leader in the Gestapo. This was called the Gesavius complex. My question is: Considering the enormous pressure of Himmler's police machine, was there yet an added psychological pressure, that one would oppose the Fatherland when opposing this enormous might? A.In this case one has to differentiate. There were a ... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,750,950 | 1,751,450 |
said he did the right thing. A.Now, what information did Sievers gather to further your purpose? A.I said before that, for example, he told me what Himmler reported about Popitz. I said that he currently kept me and all the other resistance groups informed of the strength of the Waffen-SS within Germany. I said that he... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,751,400 | 1,751,900 |
United States, and Russia. A.It was probably not quite correct procedure, that we did not before 1933 think of establishing such contacts abroad. If the Nazis should come back again, I know that I have to establish contacts before hand. Unfortunately we did not do so before 1933 and after 1933 it was too late. But with... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,751,850 | 1,752,350 |
say, first told you of these experi ments in 1942, is that right? A.Yes. Q.Never told you about any negotiations for experimentation in the year 1938? A.No. I do not remember any such thing. Q.In the year 1939? A.I should like to ask you something. Do you mean negotiations which lead to experiments or any discussions? ... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,752,300 | 1,752,800 |
was Sievers to Himmler? A.I have already said - Reich Business Manager of the Ahnenerbe and a member of the Circle of Friends. Q.He was a member of the Circle of Friends, was he not? A.Yes. Q.Sievers quite frequently had talks with Himmler only in Himmler's presence. That is, no other people there. Isn't that right? A.... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,752,750 | 1,753,250 |
to do that. They had never studied it. That was the unfortunate thing. I repeat - politically, good; for later strategic execution good; for the technique of the coup d'etat proper, that was bad. Q.And now, what did Sievers ever tell you about the SieversHirt skeleton collection? Did he ever tell you about that? A.Yes,... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,753,200 | 1,753,700 |
name of God, Mr. Hiels cher, you are a Christian, what am I to do? I had nothing to do with that. I have asked the Rabbis. I have asked the odl people themselves and we have come to the decision that I must stay in this office. At least I can determine the persons - I can at least select the oldest people who can't sta... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,753,650 | 1,754,150 |
blamed on to the French, and bearing in mind, of course that the French, as well as the United States, Grest Britain and other Allies were equally as interested as the resistance movement were in defeating the Nazi regime, were they not? A I have already said that it was Sievers8' duty to say "yes" and to act negativel... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,754,100 | 1,754,600 |
Germany during the year 1939? AUp to 1939 the number of concentration camps which I knew about was 5, 6, perhaps 7, no more. QWhat would you say about the year 1940? AThe number of concentration camps increased rapidly with the beginning of the war. First, because the NSDAP or rather the SS, began to send foreigners to... | Harvard: Medical Case (Karl Brandt et al.) | 1,754,550 | 1,755,050 |
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