[ { "seq": 1, "page_number": "1", "date": "20 December 1947", "date_iso": "1947-12-20", "text": "Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunals Case No. 2 in the matter of the United States of America against Erhard Milch, defendant, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 20 December 1946, 1000-1020, Justice Toms, presiding.\nTHE MARSHAL:Military Tribunal No. 2 is now in session. God save the United States of America and this honorable Tribunal.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The Marshal will ascertain whether the defendant, Erhard Milch, is present in Court.\nTHE MARSHAL:May it please Your Honors, the defendant is present in Court.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Is counsel for the defendant, Dr. Bergold, also present?\nTHE MARSHAL:Dr. Bergold is also present in the Court Room.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Prosecution nay proceed with the arraignment by reading the indictment.\nMR. DENNEY:If Your Honors please, Military Tribunals Case No. 2, the United States of America against Erhard Milch, defendant.\nINDICTMENT \"The United States of America, by the undersigned Telford Taylor, Chief of Counsel for War Crimes, duly appointed to represent said Government in the prosecution of war criminals, charges the defendant Erhard Milch with the commission of War Crimes and Crimes against Humanity, as defined in Control Council Law No. 10, duly enacted by the allied Control Council on 20 December 1945.\nThe defendant Milch between 1939 and 1945 was: Secretary of State in the Air Ministry, Inspector General of the Air Force, Deputy to the Commander in Chief of the Air Force, and Member of the Nazi Party. The Defendant Milch was also Field Marshal in the Luftwaffe 1940-1945, Aircraft Master General 1941-1944, Member of the Central Planning Board 1942-1945, and Chief of the Jaegerstab 1944-1945.", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "MR. DENNEY", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2, "page_number": "", "date": "20 December 1947", "date_iso": "1947-12-20", "text": "The War Crimes and Crimes against Humanity charged herein against the defendant Milch include deportation, enslavement and mistreatment of millions of persons, participation in criminal medical experiments upon human beings, and murders, brutalities, 1 a cruelties, tortures, atrocities, and other inhumane acts.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3, "page_number": "2", "date": "20 December 1947", "date_iso": "1947-12-20", "text": "\"1. Between September 1939 and May 1945 the defendant Milch unlawfully, willfully, and knowingly committed War Crimes as defined by Article II of Control Council Law No. 10, in that he was a principal in, accessory to, ordered, abetted, took a consenting part in, and was connected with plans and enterprises involving slave labor and deportation to slave labor of the civilian populations of Austria, Czechoslovakia, Italy, Hungary, and other countries and territories occupied by the German armed forces, in the course of which millions of persons were enslaved, deported, ill treated, terrorized.\n\"2. Between September 1939 and May 1945 the defendant Milch unlawfully, willfully, and knowingly committed Jar Crimes as defined by Article II of Control Council Law No. 10, in that he was a principal in, accessory to, ordered, abetted, took a consenting part in, and was connected with plans and enterprises involving the use of prisoners of war in war operations and work having a direct relation with war operations, including the manufacture and transportation of arms and munitions, in the course of which murders, cruelties, ill treatment, and other inhumane acts were committed against members of the armed forces of nations then at war with the German Reich and who were in custody of the German Reich in the exercise of belligerant control.\n\"3. In the execution of the plans and enterprises charged in Paragraphs 1 and 2 of this Count, millions of persons were unlawfully subjected to forced labor under cruel and inhumane conditions which resulted in widespread suffering. At least 5,000,000 workers were deported to Germany.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 4, "page_number": "", "date": "20 December 1947", "date_iso": "1947-12-20", "text": "The conscription of labor was accomplished in many cases by drastic and violent methods. Workers destined for the Reich were sent under guard to Germany, often packed in trains without adequate heat, food, clothing or sanitary facilities, other inhabitants of occupied countries were conscripted and compelled to work in their own countries to assist the German war economy and on fortifications and military installations. The resources and needs of the occupied countries were completely disregarded in the execution of the said plans and enterprises. Prisoners 2 a of war were assigned to work directly related to war operations, including work in munitions factories, loading bombers, carrying ammunition, and manning anti-aircraft guns.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 5, "page_number": "3", "date": "20 December 1947", "date_iso": "1947-12-20", "text": "The treatment of slave laborers and prisoners of war was based on the principle that they should be fed, sheltered, and treated in such a way as to exploit them to the greatest possible extent at the lowest expenditure.\n\"4. The defendant Milch from 1942 to 1945 was a member of the Central Planning Board which had supreme authority for the scheduling of production and the allocation and development of raw materials in the German war economy. The Central Planning Board determined the labor requirements of industry, agriculture and all other phases of German war economy, and made requisitions for and allocations of such labor. The defendant Milch had full knowledge of the illegal manner in which foreign laborers were conscripted and prisoners of war utilized to meet such requisitions, and of the unlawful and inhumane conditions under which they were exploited. He attended the meetings of the Central Planning Board, participated in its decisions and in the formulation of basic policies with reference to the exploitation of such labor, advocated the increase use of forced labor and prisoners of war to expand war production, and urged that cruel and repressive measures be utilized to procure and exploit such labor.\n\"5. During the years 1939-1945 the defendant Milch, as Secretary of State in the Air Ministry, Inspector General of the Air Force, Deputy to the Commander in Chief of the Air Force, Field Marshal in the Luftwaffe, Aircraft Master General, and Chief of the Jaegerstab, had responsibility for the development and procurement of arms and munitions for the German Air Force. The defendant Milch exploited foreign laborers and prisoners of war in the arms, aircraft and minitions factories under his control, made requisitions for and allocations of such labor within the aircraft industry, and personally directed that cruel and repressive measures be adopted towards such labor.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 6, "page_number": "", "date": "20 December 1947", "date_iso": "1947-12-20", "text": "3 a \"6. Pursuant to the order of the defendant Milch, prisoners of war who had attempted escape were murdered on or about 15 February 1944.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 7, "page_number": "4", "date": "20 December 1947", "date_iso": "1947-12-20", "text": "\"7. The said War Crimes constitute violations of international conventions, particularly of Articles 4,5,6,7,46 and 52 of the Hague Regulations, 1907, and of Articles 2,3, 4,6, and 31 of the Prisoner-of-war Convention (Geneva, 1929), the laws and customs of war, the general principles of criminal law as derived from the criminal laws of all civilized nations, the internal penal laws of the countries in which such crimes were committed, and Article II of Control Council Law No. 10.\n\"8. Between March 1942 and May 1943 the defendant Milch unlawfully, willfully, and knowingly committed war Crimes as defined in Article II of Control Council Law No. 10, in that he was a principal in, accessory to, ordered, abetted, took a consenting part in and was connected with plans and enterprises involving medical experiments without the subjects' consent, upon members of the armed forces and civilians of nations then at war with the German Reich and who were in the custody of the German Reich in the exercise of belligerent control, in the course of which experiments the defendant Milch, together with divers other persons, committed murders, brutalities, cruelties, tortures, and other inhumane acts, Such experiments included, but wore not limited top the following:\n\"(A) HIGH ALTITUDE EXPERIMENTS. From about March 1942 to about August 1942 experiments were conducted at the. Dachau concentration camp for the benefit of the German Air Force to investigate the limits of human endurance and existence at extremely high altitudes. The experiments were carried out in a low-pressure chamber in which the atmospheric conditions and pressures prevailing at high altitudes (up to 68,000 feet) could be duplicated.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 8, "page_number": "", "date": "20 December 1947", "date_iso": "1947-12-20", "text": "The experimental subjects were placed in the low-pressure chamber and thereafter the simulated altitude therein was raised. Many victims died as a result of these experiments and others suffered grave injury, torture, and ill 4 a treatment.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 9, "page_number": "5", "date": "20 December 1947", "date_iso": "1947-12-20", "text": "\"(B) FREEZING EXPERIMENTS. From about August 1942 to about May 1943 experiments were conducted at the Dachau concentration camp primarily for the benefit of the German Air Force to investigate the most effective means of treating persons who had been severely chilled or frozen. In one series of experiments the subjects were forced to remain in a tank of ice water for periods up to three hours. Extreme rigor developed in a short time. Numerous victims died in the course of the experiments. After the survivors were severely chilled, rewarming was attempted by various means. In another series of experiments, the subjects were kept naked outdoors for many hours at temperatures below freezing. The victims screamed with pain as parts of their bodies froze.\n\"9. The said War Crimes constitute violations of international conventions, particularly of Articles 4, 5, 6, 7, and 46 of the Hague regulations, 1907, and of Article II, III and IV of the Prisoner-of-War Convention (Geneva, 1929), the laws and customs of war, the general principles of criminal law as derived from the criminal laws of all civilized nations, the internal penal laws of the countries in which such crimes were committed, and Article II of the Control Council Law No. 10.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 10, "page_number": "6", "date": "20 December 1947", "date_iso": "1947-12-20", "text": "\"Between September 1939 and May 1945, the defendant Milch unlawfully, willfully, and knowingly committed Crimes against Humanity, as defined by Article II of Control Council Law No. 10 in that he was a principal in, assessory to, ordered, abetted, took a consenting part in, and was connected with plans and enterprises involving slave labor and deportation to slave labor of German nationals and nationals of other countries in the course of which millions of persons were enslaved, deported, ill treated, terrorized, tortured, and murdered. The particulars of those crimes are set forth in Count One of this Indictment and are incorporated herein by reference.\n\"Between March 1942 and May 1943, the defendant Milch unlawfully, willfully, and knowingly committed Crimes against Humanity as defined in Article II of Control Council Law No. 10 in that he was a principal in, assessory to, ordered, abetted, took a consenting part in, and was connected with plans and enterprises involving medical experiments without the subjects' consent, upon German nationals and nationals of other countries, in the course of which experiments the defendant Milch, together with divers other persons, committed murders, brutalities, cruelties, tortures, atrocities, and other inhumane acts. The particulars of such experiments arc set forth in Count Two of this Indictment and arc incorporated herein by reference.\n\"The said Crimes against Humanity constitute violations of international conventions, the laws and customs of war, the general principles of criminal law as derived from the criminal laws of all civilized nations, the internal penal laws of the countries in which such crimes were committed, and Article II of Control Council Law No. 10.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 11, "page_number": "", "date": "02 December 1947", "date_iso": "1947-12-02", "text": "\"WHEREFORE, this Indictment is filed with the Secretary General of the Military Tribunals and the charges herein made against the above named defendant are hereby presented to the Military Tribunals.\n\"Telford Taylor, Brigadier General, United States Army, Chief of Counsel for War Crimes, Acting on Behalf of the United States of America, Nuremberg, 13 November 1946.\"\n6 a", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 12, "page_number": "7", "date": "20 December 1947", "date_iso": "1947-12-20", "text": "THE PRESIDENT:The defendant will stand. You have heard the indictment just read?\nERHARD MILCH:Yes.\nTHE PRESIDENT:And it has been translated into the German language which you understand?\nERHARD MILCH:Yes.\nTHE PRESIDENT:For more than 30 days you have had in your possession a copy of this indictment translated into the German language?\nERHARD MILCH:Yes.\nTHE PRESIDENT:You have also had tho benefit of Dr. Bergold's counsel for at least 30 days?\nERHARD MILCH:Yes.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Now then to this indictment how do you plead, guilty or not guilty?\nERHARD MILCH:Not guilty.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The Secretary General will enter upon the records of tho Court tho defendant's plea of \"Not Guilty\", You may be seated.\nThe Tribunal has sot tho second day of January, Thursday, 1947 for the commencement of the trial of this action. Will the United States be ready on that date?\nMR. DENNEY:The Government will be ready at that time, Your Honor.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Dr. Bergold, will you be ready to proceed with the trial on the second of January?\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes.\nTHE PRESIDENT:In the absence of any intervening factors which may necessitate changing this date, tho Court orders the trial to proceed then upon the second of January, 1947, at 9:30 in the forenoon. The trial will be conducted in Room 581 of this building rather than this court room.", "speakers": [ "ERHARD MILCH", "MR. DENNEY", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 13, "page_number": "", "date": "20 December 1947", "date_iso": "1947-12-20", "text": "Are there any further details which the Government wishes to take up with the Tribunal at this time?\nMR. DENNEY:None at this time, Your Honor.\n7 a", "speakers": [ "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 14, "page_number": "8", "date": "20 December 1947", "date_iso": "1947-12-20", "text": "THE PRESIDENT:Dr. Bergold, is there any matter which you wish to take up with the Tribunal at this time - any other matter?\nDR. BERGOLD:No.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Very well, the order having been entered for the commencement of the trial, this Tribunal will be in recess until that time.\n(The Tribunal adjourned until 2 January 1947 at 0930 hours.)", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 15, "page_number": "9", "date": "02 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-02", "text": "Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunals, Court No. 2, in the matter of the Uni bed States of America against Erhard Milch, defendant, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 2 January 1947, 0950, Justice Toms, presiding.\nTHE MARSHAL:Military Tribunal 2 is now in session. God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The record will show that the defendant and his counsel are present in Court. r. Denney, you may proceed to offer the prosecution.\nMR. DENNEY:May it please Your Honors, this defendant is Erhard Milch, Field Marshal in the Luftwaffe, Inspector General of the Luftwaffe, State Secretary in the Air Ministry, General Luftzeugmeister, sole representative of the Wehrmacht on the Central Planning Board, Chief of the Jaegerstab, and member of the Nazi Party.\nThis man is accused of war crimes and crimes against humanity in that he took part in the program for the enslavement and ill-treatment of the civilian population of vast territories conquered by the Armed Forces of Germany and in the employment of prisoners of war in tasks forbidden by the laws and customs of war. He is also accused of the torture and murder of concentration camp inmates and prisoners of war who were made the unwilling subjects of savage and fatal medical experiments.\nThe life of Erhard Milch is a story of personal and professional betrayal. A man of high intelligence, of great executive ability, he misused these talents, to dedicate them to a scheme for conquest and a plan for the enslavement of the world. The ten years of military service of the defendant from the ages of 18 to 28 which took him through the First World War were a perfect preparation for the tasks to come. From 1915 to 1919, Milch was a scout, observer, adjutant and squadron chief in the German Air Force. At the very infancy of military aviation, the defendant began an association which was to last through his entire public career. It was at this time that he learned the needs and the problems of flying men, a knowledge which was to stand him in such good stead in his work as the founder of the Luftwaffe.", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "MR. DENNEY", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 16, "page_number": "10", "date": "02 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-02", "text": "The defendant never dissociated himself from the aims and ideals of German militarism. He became one of the silent army of men who remembered, hated, and hoped, but unlike many others, this man did not sit idly by. He did not wait passively for Germany to rise again, he devoted his best efforts towards that end. In 1921, only one year after his discharge from the Army, we find him working as Chief of air operations in the new business of commercial aviation.\nThere is no necessity to fill out in detail the successive steps in the defendant's rise in civilian air transportation--a few broad strokes suffice. The next significant event in his career came in 1925 when he joined the state sponsored Lufthansa which within three years he was to form into the nucleus of a new air force. It is no emphemism that he was called the Father of German Air Transportation.\nWhen Hitler came into power in 1933, Milch acceeded to the requests of both Goering and Hitler and assumed the additional duty of State Secretary in the Air Ministry. It was understood from the start and it was confirmed in 1937 that Milch would succeed Goering as Chief of the German Air Force in the event of the latter's death or withdrawal. By the time the new Luftwaffe had publicly emerged from such embryos as the Air Sport League, the Air Defense League and the Flying Hitler Youth, the defendant had become a Generalleutnant (the equivalent of the American Major General). The honors which followed: Field Marshal in the Luftwaffe in 1940, which was gained from two months' participation in the invasion of Norway; General Luftzeugmeister in 1941; member of the Central Planning Board in 1942; Chief of the Jaegerstab in 1944, were proof alike of the evil genius of Erhard Milch and of his complete compatibility with the Nazi ambitions and methods.\nThis defendant became a member of the Nazi Party in May 1933. His work in the party was important. He was indeed one of the little group of specialists of whom Mr. Justice Jackson, in his closing address before the International Military Tribunal, aptly said:", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 17, "page_number": "11", "date": "02 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-02", "text": "\"It is doubtful whether the Nazi master plan could have succeeded without their specialized intelligence which they so willingly put at its command. They (speaking of Goering, Keitel, Jodl and the rest) did so with the knowledge of its announced was and methods and continued their services after practice had confirmed the direction in which they were tending. Their superiority to the average run of Nazi mediocrity is not their excuse. It is their condemnation.\"\nVarious Germans allowed themselves to be absorbed into tho Nazi Party for a variety of reasons. Depression, financial and business betterment, ambition, discouragement with the previous political situation and human weakness in the face of terrorism all played their part in the recruitment of the Nazi machine. There were few cases in which a man made as clear, as deliberate and as discreditable a choice of Naziism as did Milch.\nThe high esteem in which the defendant was held by Hitler and his position within the inner circle of Nazi militarists can be seen from the fact that he was one of a party of fourteen of Hitler's highest and most trusted officers who attended a conference in the new Reich Chancellory on May 23, 1939) at which Hitler made known to his military chiefs his plans and objectives.\nAll in all, two points stand out in even a quick survey of Milch's career: first, he never accepted the defeat of Germany in the First World War, his life between The wars was devoted to the work of placing Germany in a position to challenge the world in the matter of air supremacy; and second, he was a man who was unlikely to allow either difficulty or honor to stand in the way of the accomplishment, of his purpose--the objectives of the Nazi Party. If these characteristics are borne in mind, much of the defendant's fanaticism and the unbelievable savagery with which he adhered to the Nazi plan for conquest at the expense of all values of human decency, may be seen as the natural consequences of the acts of a man with his criminal philosophy.\nWe have then, at the outbreak of the war, this man, already within the inner circle, already devoted to the Nazi scheme of things and quite essential to their fulfillment, with a record of organization and with the work of preparation behind him--poised with his companions for the kill.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 18, "page_number": "12", "date": "02 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-02", "text": "We see the air armadas, which were the labor of his love, helping to shatter Poland within 18 days, helping to reduce the Lowlands to smoking ruins within a few days' time, assisting in the subjugation of the French military machine and in driving the British from the continent in a period of a few weeks. We see the hordes of the Fatherland racing on and on with the air arm always overhead, preparing the way, until Germany had overrun a territory from the Normandy Coast to Moscow and from the Norwegian Sea to El Alemain.\nThen began the occupation, the next step in the plan of the Third Reich--an empire which was to last a thousand years. Over an entire continent there spread the deadly rigor of a \"Pax Germanica\" in which there was to be one citizen class, one race of supermen, and the balance, one class of slaves. At first the occupation overlords maintained the appearance of legality. They gave receipts for the property they plundered, they offered inducements to the laborers they shanghaied, they went through the mockery of signing contracts which were both illusory and fraudulent. But even this sham disappeared as the war went on, and as early as 1942, the German occupation appeared in public as the ugly thing it was, complete with armed recruiters, military escorts on deportation trains and prison camps for the workers brought into Germany. Mr. Justice Jackson, in his opening address on behalf of the United States of America before the International Military Tribunal, vividly described the character and extent of the slave labor program in the following words:\n\"Perhaps the deportation to slave labor was the most horrible and extensive slaving operation in history. On few other subjects is our evidence so abundant and so damaging. A speech of the defendant Frank, Governor General of Poland, made on January 25, 1944 boasts, 'I have sent 1,300,000 Polish workers into the Reich.' The defendant Sauckel reported that 'out of the five million foreign workers who arrived in Germany, not even 200,000 came voluntarily.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 19, "page_number": "13", "date": "02 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-02", "text": "' Children of 10 to 14 years were impressed into service. When enough slave labor was not forthcoming, prisoners of war were forced into war work in flagrant violation of international conventions. Slave labor came from France, Belgium, Holland, Italy, and the East. Methods of recruitment were violent. The treatment of these slave laborers was stated in general terms, not difficult to translate into concrete deprivations, in a letter to the defendant Rosenberg from the defendant Sauckel; it is stated:\n'All the men (prisoners of war and foreign civilian workers) must be fed, sheltered and treated in such a way as to exploit them to the highest possible extent at the lowest conceivable degree of expenditure.'\" Working as we do every day with crimes of unbelievable enormity, we are apt to become quite deadened to the hideous nature of specific crimes.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 20, "page_number": "14", "date": "03 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-03", "text": "It is, therefore, well to stop and consider the particular offenses with which this man stands charged.\nCrimes are best evaluated in terms of the rights they violate. The evil, slavery, which is the deprivation of another' liberty is best judged through a consideration of its opposite good, freedom. Freedom is, to an extent, properly regarded as the symbol of human progress, the measure of civilization. Much of man's history can be expressed in terms of his fight for freedom. Man's personal freedom is his most precious prerogative, the exercise of his free will is his distinctive function. The building of a legal structure to protect the freedom of the individual is the basic purpose of good government. Men have lived for freedom, worked for it, fought for it and died for it.\nIt is precisely because of their destructive effects on the freedom of the individual that governments such as the Nazi German State are so hatefully and essentially evil. The Nazi rise to power is a story of duress which ripened into slavery, first for the people within Germany and then for those in the lands she conquered. The enforced labor program was no expedient forced upon Germany by the exigencies of war. It Was a basic concept of the Nazi scheme and the permanent destiny of these who would come under the German yoke.\nIt is most natural, therefore, that Control Council Law No. 10 which was enacted for the guidance of this and other tribunals which are set up for the trial of the principals in the crime of Nazi Germany should deal in very severe terms with that most Nazi of all crimes - slavery. Article II, Paragraph 1 (section b) specifically names among the enumerated war crimes the ill-treatment or deportation to slave labor cf civilian populations from occupied territory and the murder or ill-treatment of prisoners of war.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 21, "page_number": "15", "date": "02 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-02", "text": "Paragraph 1 (section c) specifies as a crime against humanity, deportation of civilian populations. Article II, Paragraphs 2 and 5 proclaim that anyone taking a principal or consenting part in these crimes or belonging to a plan or enterprise for the commission of these crimes is guilty of an offense for which the death penalty may be prescribed.\nThe Prosecution will prove that Milch was a principal in the deportation into slave labor of civilian populations from occupied territories. It will show that he was involved in the murder and ill-treatment of prisoners of war. Evidence will be presented which will prove that he was engaged in plans and enterprises which directly involved the use of slave labor. He will show that this man was as muck concerned with the employment of slave labor as was any man in Germany. In his positions as a member of the Central Planning Board, as General Luftzeugmeister of the Air Force and as Chief of the Jaegerstab, he had full opportunity to hear all the grim details of the exploitation of slave labor. He participated in decisions and formulated basic policies with reference to its use and over and above all this he skewed his personal animosity and his gratuitous fanaticism in constantly urging the most repressive and cruel measures in the procurement and exploitation of foreign workers.\nDuring the course of this trial, an attempt will be made to distinguish among that which this defendant did as General Luftzeugmeister, as Chief of the Jaegerstab, as State Secretary for Air and as a member of the Central Planning Board. At times at will be difficult, if not impossible, to state in just which capacity ho was acting at a particular time. He must emphasize now that it is not essential to the proof of this case that we should be able always to specify the exact capacity in which the defendant acted.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 22, "page_number": "16", "date": "02 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-02", "text": "The multiplicity of his connection with the slave labor program is his greatest condemnation and it is because he knew so much and did so muck that there can be for him no excuse.\nErhard Milch operated at a policy level high in the chain of command above the work boss and the concentration camp guard. We need not show him driving the workers to their tasks or crowding them into the hovels in which they lived. We are not primarily concerned with tho minute details of the slave labor program which were carried out by minions who obeyed non like the defendant. We are dealing with a planner of a great crime and it has not been difficult for the law to seek out and punish these who plan as well as those who obey. The law would indeed be derelict if only these were punished who pulled the trigger to kill, or, comparably speaking, ran a slave camp in which people worked an 84 hour week and dragged out a miserable existence under conditions from which death was welcome relief.\nThis defendant cannot plead in truth that he did not know that the use of slave labor was wrong. He cannot use even the technical excuse so common among the Nazis that this was not illegal because the Nazi law authorized it. Official sanction of slavery would have been a law so evil that even the Nazi masters dared not proclaim it. A search through the nass of decrees and pronouncements which passed for law during the regime of Adolf Hitler fails to reveal sanction for slavery of foreign laborers. On the other hand certain prohibitory laws survived from a more respectable day.\nParagraph 234 of the German Criminal Law (published in 1942 in Munich and Berlin pp. 364-365) provides that \"whosoever seizes a person by ruse, threat, or force in order to expose him in a helpless situation, and to bring him into slavery, serfdom and foreign Army and Navy service shall be punished for kidnapping with penal servitude.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 23, "page_number": "17", "date": "02 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-02", "text": "This law was in force during the Nazi regime and was published in the most recent edition of German Criminal Law which we have been able to find.\nThat mal-treatment was common place in the course of the enforced labor program in Germany is well known; that starvation, murder and all types of personal abuses took place is notorious. All of this was found as a fact in the decision of the International Military Tribunal. There can be no question of the responsibility of the defendant for the murders and privations which were the inevitable by-product of the slave labor program.\nBut we need not follow the crime of slave labor down to its last detail in order to show the defendant as the murderer he was. We can and will prove that he directly participated in crimes of which murder was often the intended and on numerous occasions the inevitable result.\nThe Prosecution charges, and will prove, that he took an Important, responsible and essential part in the practice of experiments upon human beings carried out against their wills and in callous disregard of the lives of its victims.\nCut then to bare essentials the charges set forth in Paragraphs 8 and 9 of Count II of the Indictment and in Paragraph 11 of Count III can be summarized by the statement that the defendant was officially connected with and took a consenting part in enterprises in which criminal medical experiments were performed upon involuntary subjects.\nThe nature and extent of these experiments and the fact that they were conducted for the specific benefit of the Luftwaffe will be, shown in some detail. We will prove that the defendant was the responsible Luftwaffe officer with ultimate supervisory authority over the experiments. The Court will see that throughout the duration of these experiments, the defendant was constantly treated by all concerned as the ultimate authority within the Luftwaffe in control of the experimental equipment and in charge of certain personnel who were actively engaged in them.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 24, "page_number": "18", "date": "02 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-02", "text": "Evidence will be presented which will prove that the defendant was thoroughly informed of the criminal activities of Dr. Rascher, the experimenter, and his associates. We will prove that a conference was hold at the defendant's office, that films were shown there, that communications were sent to him from highest Nazi sources which specifically referred to opposition on the part of \"narrow-minded doctors\" to the experiments. A web of evidence will be adduced to portray the defendant, as he really was, an active partner in crime. We will show that the defendant authorized the initiation of freezing experiments and that he ordered an extension of the high altitude experiments for a period of two months during which extended period a number of experimental subjects died.\nAt the conclusion of the evidence with respect to the medical experiments upon human beings there will remain no doubt that Erhard Milch was a knowing, willing and active participant in murder.\nThroughout the trial the Prosecution will place before the court a number of statements which will portray him as a man who believed no tears should be shed for the victims of total war when German soldiers were every day making the ultimate sacrifice for the Fatherland. This man was not a hard headed, single minded production chief whose only problem was to get things done and whose rash statements were the impetuous remarks of an over-worked executive. Milch will be shown as a man who boasted of his responsibility in the hanging of prisoners of war, who urged that any effort on the part of foreign workers to strike during enemy action should be not with rifle fire, who offered protection to slave supervisors who should mistreat their subjects. We will show that he was not too busy to inform himself fully of everything with which he was officially connected and that over and above this he went out of his way to learn the most minute details of matters with which he was very remotely connected.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 25, "page_number": "19", "date": "02 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-02", "text": "And now a brief word about the type of evidence with which the Prosecution will prove its case. It must be borne in mind that we are not concerned with a single localized incident or with a series of such incidents. The proof which we must show cannot be brought forth from the daily events of ordered society. It must be drawn from the cold ashes of a broken nation. The documents which will be brought into court have been taken from all corners of a continent. They have one common feature which elevates them in the hierarchy of evidence to a place above the story of sincere but fallible eye-witnesses. These documents are official German records, some of them records of the defendant's own organizations. In some cases they bear the defendant's signature or his hand-written initials. In every case they are authentic records compiled by Germans, accurate because there was no reason for falsification or exaggeration, thorough because of a national fetish for attention to detail, reliable because they were made at times when the German fortunes of war were high and their scriveners had no reason to fear that one day they would be confronted with their hand made records of criminality.\nIt would seem that at this point there should be some discussion of the various organizations with which the defendant was connected.\nWe are concerned principally with that part of the OKW (Oberkommando Wehrmacht) High Command of the Armed Forces, known as the OKL (Oberkommando Luftwaffe) the German Air Force. The Chief of the OKL was Reich Marshal Hermann Goering. His Inspector General and State Secretary in the Air Ministry was the defendant Erhard Milch.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 26, "page_number": "20", "date": "02 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-02", "text": "As such, from July 1940, he held the rank of Field Marshal (comparable to the American rank of General of the Armies).\nThe other two branches of the OKW with which we are incidentally concerned were the OKH (Oberkommando Heeres) the Army, and the OKH (Oberkommando Marine) the Navy. The Army was commanded by Field Marshal von Brauchitsch until December 1941, at which time it was taken over by Hitler. The Navy was commanded by Grand Admiral Raeder until 1943, thereafter by Grand Admiral Doenitz.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 27, "page_number": "21", "date": "02 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-02", "text": "The Luftwaffe Medical Service came under this defendant in his capacity as Inspector General of the Luftwaffe. The Medical Service was headed by Dr. Erich Hippke until January 1944, thereafter it was headed by Dr. Oskar Schroeder.\nThere was an experimental institute, in Berlin, called the DVL. This was a technical research institution for aero-research. This was subordinate to this defendant in his position as General Luftzeugmeister.\nWe now turn to the Central Planning Board. This was established by a Goering decree, pursuant to a Hitler order of April 22nd 1942. The Board consisted of Albert Speer, Erhard Milch, and Paul Koerner. Later, by a supplementary Goering decree, in September 1943, Walther Funk was added to the Board. Speer and Milch were the dominant members, and Koerner and Funk played comparatively minor roles. The Central Planning Board was, in effect, a consolidation of all controls over German war production. The Board was found by the International Military Tribunal to have \"had supreme authority for the scheduling of German production and the allocation and development of raw material\". Hand in hand with this goes the corollary of the procurement and allocation of labor. Reich Marshal Goering, in his decree of April 22nd 1942, stated in part - \"It (the Central Planning Board) encompasses that which is fundamental and vital. It makes unequivocal decisions and supervises the execution of its directives\". The Central Planning Board requisitioned labor from Sauckel with full knowledge that the demands would be supplied by foreign forced labor, and the Board determined the basic allocation of this labor within the German war economy. Sauckel was the servant of the Central Planning Board in the procurement of slave labor. There are records of some 50 odd meetings of the Board between the time of its establishment in 1942, and 1945. The defendant was present at all but a few of these meetings and on occasion his was the dominant voice. The International Military Tribunal found that \"...the Central Planning Board determined the total number of laborers needed for German industry, and required Sauckel to produce them, usually by deporta tion from occupied territories\".It is worthy of note that Speer was appointed Reich Minister for Armaments and Munitions on February 2, 1942, Sauckel was appointed Plenipotentiary General for the Utilization of Labor on March 21, 1942, and Central Planning Board was created on April 22, 1942.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 28, "page_number": "22", "date": "02 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-02", "text": "Turning now to the defendant's position as Chief of the Jaegerstab. The Jaegerstab was formed pursuant to a Speer decree of March 1, 1944, for the purpose of increasing the production of German fighter aircraft, which, because of effective and heavy raids by strategic air forces of Great Britain and America, had suffered a production decrease to a figure below 1,000 planes a month.\nBecause of this reduced production of fighter planes, Milch had requested Speer to establish a commission to deal with this most vital problem. The commission was created and Speer and Milch were joint chiefs. The Jaegerstab was actually a group cf experts, drawn from the various phases of German industry and supplemented by representatives of the various Ministries concerned, such as Labor, Supply, Transportation, Power and Energy, Raw Materials, Health, Repairs and so forth.\nMeetings were held almost daily, in the beginning at the Air Ministry in Berlin and later at Tempelhof airfield in the same city. The Jaegerstab functions were these: the quick repair of plants damaged in bombing or strafing operations, the dispersal of German aircraft plants and the construction of underground factories for aircraft production.\nAs it was with the Central Planning Board, so it was with the Jaegerstab, a major problem was the procurement of slave labor. The workers for Jaegerstab were procured from the Sauckel Ministry, from occupied countries and from the SS, who supplied concentration camp inmates and Hungarian Jews.\nSo successful was the work of Jaegerstab that Speer decided to enlarge its functions to include other phases of armament and munitions production. Accordingly, on August 1, 1944, he issued a decree expanding the functions of Jaegerstab and changing its name to Ruestungsstab.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 29, "page_number": "23", "date": "02 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-02", "text": "The position of General Luftzeugmeister was taken over by the defendant in 1941, following the death of Colonel General Ernst Udet. In this post the defendant was in charge of all technical research in the Luftwaffe and his was the overall responsibility for all aircraft production. As such he spoke for the Luftwaffe in the meetings of the Central Planning Board and in conferences with Hitler. It is obvious that here again the procurement of labor was a primary consideration for one who had the complete responsibility for keeping the Luftwaffe in the air.\nIn the trial before the International Military Tribunal, it was determined that 5,000,000 laborers were deported to Germany. Of these, 4,800,000 did not come voluntarily.\nThe evidence will show that the defendant's responsibility was as great, if not greater, than was Sauckel's. Erhard Milch raised his voice in demanding that foreign labor be procured by any methods and in advocating that cruel and repressive measures be taken by those in charge of these laborers. There is no record of any utterance by him, which can be offered as a mitigating circumstance to his complete complicity in the criminality of the slave labor program.\nThe evidence on the altitude and freezing experiments will reveal him as a man completely without concern for the welfare and lives of the wretched, unwilling victims of the criminal tortures conducted for the benefit of the Luftwaffe.\nThe series of trials, of which this is one, if it is to serve its purpose in exposing and punishing the abuses of Nazidom, must strike hard at the cores of savage German militarism and its technical counterpart, industry for war. Erhard Milch is the foremost example of the union between German militarism and German heavy Industry. What useful purpose is served by condemning these two and allowing their sponsors, men like Milch, to go unpunished?\nWe take it as a fundamental proposition that man is not the helpless product of his environment. Civilization is a lengthy chronicle of men who triumphed over difficulty. Its survival depends on the moral fibre of individuals who can use circumstance, not be determined by it.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 30, "page_number": "24", "date": "02 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-02", "text": "If society must answer for the actions of men and not men for the course of society, then, indeed governments are our masters and not our servants, then, indeed, law dictates but does not express justice. Erhard Milch lived during years of violence and in an evil environment but he was a man well able to overcome these factors and become a force for good. It was by his own free choice that ha followed the line of least resistance and became one of the evil spirits who cast a dark shadow of war and crime over Germany and the world. He had a choice between the easy wrong and the hard right -- he chose the former. Peace, order and progress depend an men of sufficient courage to choose at times a hard, just path. Ours indeed is an exacting standard - but the rewards are great - and the alternative is chaos.\nMR. DENNEY:If Your Honor please, at this time I respectfully request an adjournment until tomorrow morning. The document book in German was handed to Dr. Bergold, night before last at seven o'clock, and we do not as yet have our first document book. We shall have it by tomorrow morning. I believe it would be most helpful, if the Tribunal is agreeable, to adjourn until that time.\nPRESIDENT:You will be ready to proceed with the table of proof tomorrow morning then?\nMR. DENNEY:Yes, sir.\nPRESIDENT:Very well, then, under those circumstances, the Tribunal will recess until tomorrow morning at 9:30.\n(The Tribunal adjourned until 3 January 1947, at 0930 hours.)", "speakers": [ "PRESIDENT", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 31, "page_number": "25", "date": "03 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-03", "text": "Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America, against Erhard Milch, defendant, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany on 3 January 1947, 0930, Justice Toms, presiding.\nTHE MARSHAL:The Honorable Judges of military Tribunal Number 2.\nMilitary Tribunal No. 2 is now in session.\nGod save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal.\nThere will be order in the court.\nMR. DENNEY:Your Honors please, I would first like to hand up to the Court, not as an exhibit but just by the way of being of assistance to the Court, a list of comparative rank in the United States Army, the German Army, the SS and various other German organizations. As I say, it is not to be considered as an exhibit and I will hand one copy of it to the Defense counsel. This is the same chart given to the Tribunal in the first case and also in the case that is going on upstairs. As far as the presentation of documents is concerned we propose, with the Court's approval, to follow the same procedure in presentation of documents as was followed in the initial case before the International Court and which is presently being followed in the United States against Karl Brandt and others. The prosecution will mention a specific document by identifying numbers and will give to it a number at the time that it is offered and we respectfully suggest that the Clerk assign the numbers to it that we will mention at the time that the document is offered. Of course, the defense counsel will have his opportunity to object and if no objection is raised, why, then the document will be deemed to have been received in evidence and to receive the number which has been announced when the document was offered. We believe that this is the most expeditious and orderly way to enter the document. It was followed before and it seemed to have worked fairly well. At the time we present it a member of the prosecution staff will hand the original or a certified copy which is serving as the original to the Clerk of the Tribunal Judge Dixon or his representative, and he will, of course, place a number on the exhibit.", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 32, "page_number": "", "date": "03 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-03", "text": "Normally we won't find it 25 a necessary to read entire documents into the record as has been done on some cases before.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 33, "page_number": "26", "date": "03 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-03", "text": "In the first case the reason they read so many complete documents was because of the fact they had to be translated into four languages. Very often at the time the document was presented the translation in one or two of the languages was not available so they read the whole document into the record. However, that doesn't mean there aren't some we won't try to read entirely into the record.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Mr. Denny, the documents which you are about to introduce are the same ones we have had before in this document book?\nMR. DENNEY:Yes, sir.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Which are indexed but have not been given exhibit number?\nMR. DENNEY:That's correct, your Honor. Now, we charge that these two books that are up there now constitute Document Book 1. The index in the first volume being for both volumes and the page numbers that have been placed in the lower right hand corner I will refer, your Honor, to the pages as we go along. We have given the defense counsel a copy of these documents Tuesday evening and we shall continue to abide by your Honor's ruling of giving the copy 24 hours in advance except in so far as documents which will be produced for cross-examination. Counsel in that instance will have to see new documents when used for cross-examination or when they will be handed to the witness so there will be some he has not seen before. Generally speaking, we will try to direct the attention of the Court by reading the parts of the documents which we deem most relevant. Of course, we would like to make it clear we are offering the whole document when we do offer it, even though we don't read it. As far as the method of authentication of the documents is concerned, we will again follow the procedure that has been followed before the International Military Tribunal and is now being used by Mr. McHaney in the case of the United States against Karl Brandt and others.", "speakers": [ "MR. DENNEY", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 34, "page_number": "", "date": "03 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-03", "text": "Probably for a purpose of showing the process whereby these documents were initially obtained it might be well to read from the transcript in order that the record may show and the Court will understand how these captured documents were sent to Nurnberg for the present case going on before Military 26 a Tribunal 1. I have here pages 75 and 76 of the original transcript.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 35, "page_number": "27", "date": "03 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-03", "text": "When the United States Army entered Germany, it had specialized military personnel whose duties were to capture and preserve enemy documents, records and archives. Such documents were assembled in temporary document centers. Later each Army established fixed document centers in the United States Zone of Occupation where there documents were assembled and the slow process of indexing and cataloguing was begun. Certain of these document centers in the US Zone of Occupation have since been closed and the documents assembled there sent to other document centers. When the International Military Tribunal was set up, field teams under the direction of Major William N. Coogan were organized and sent out to the various document centers. Great masses of German documents and records were screened and examined. Those selected were sent to Nurnberg to be and were given trial identification numbers in various series, such as the letters \"PS\", \"L\", \"R\", \"CH\", and \"C\" indicating the means of acquisition of the documents. As an example, the \"PS\" documents or most of them were obtained by Col. Storey in Paris so they gave them \"P\" for Paris and the \"S\" is Storey and the \"L\" means London. Within each series, documents were listed numerically. The prosecution in this case shall have occasion to introduce in evidence documents processed under the direction of Major Coogan. Some of these documents were introduced in evidence before the International Military Tribunal and some were not. Those which were, this Tribunal is required by Art. XX of Ordinance 7 to take judicial knowledge thereof. However in order to simplify the procedure, we will introduce photostatic copies of documents used in Case 1 before the International Military Tribunal to which will be attached a certificate by Mr. Fred Niebergall, the Chief of our Document Control Branch, certifying that such document was introduced in evidence before the International Military Tribunal and that it is a true and correct copy thereof.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 36, "page_number": "28", "date": "03 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-03", "text": "These documents have been and will be made available to the defendants just as in the case of any other document.\nAs to the documents processed under the direction of Major Coogan and which was not used in the case before the International Military Tribunal, they are authenticated by the affidavit of Major Coogan and dated 19 November 1945. This affidavit served as a basis of authentication and substantially all documents used by the Chief of Counsel before the IMT. It was introduced in that trial as United States of America Exhibit No. 1. Since we will use certain documents processed for the IMT trial, I would now like to introduce as Prosecution Exhibit No. 1 the Coogan affidavit in order to authenticate such documents. This affidavit explains the manner and means by which captured German documents were processed for use in War Crimes Trials, I can't read it because it's substantially the same as the affidavit of Mr. Niebergall to which I shall come in a moment. I believe Judge Dickson has a copy of this affidavit with the original for Your Honors. If Your Honors please, I believe that is the original affidavit and there are some photostatic copies which -\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:Mr. Denney, it would appear to me that where you have a document of sufficient importance as to be studied by the Tribunal in analyzing all the testimony, that you read a substantial part of it into the record.\nMR. DENNEY:Yes, but if Your Honor please, that is exactly our intention.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:That the record itself will be complete without having to leaf through a number of other documents.\nMR. DENNEY:Yes, your Honor, that is exactly what I have in mind. The only reason that I mentioned that we won't read the complete document in every instance is because that process was followed on occasion before the first trial and I thought perhaps Your Honors might have the idea that every document should be read in toto. Now, of course, if Your Honors, want it, we will definitely do it, but we do definitely have in mind to read into the record documents at some length where they are important and where we fool that they are cast like either on the slave labor program or medical experiments or that we fool is definitely on the subject, but of course that is for Your Honors' ruling.", "speakers": [ "MR. DENNEY", "JUDGE MUSMANNO" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 37, "page_number": "29", "date": "03 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-03", "text": "JUDGE MUSMANNO: In other words, tho record should be self-sustaining.\nMR. DENNEY: Yes, we have that in mind, Your Honor.\nComing now to the manner in which the documents are authenticated by the affidavit of Mr. Niebergall, I now like to offer as Prosecution's Exhibit No. 2 the Niebergall affidavit and with Your Honors' permission I should like to read it into the record; one, in view of the fact that the Coogan affidavit was omitted; and 2 two, in order that the record will show how these exhibits were obtained and how they are authenticated. This affidavit was made on 3 December 1946.\nMR. PRESIDENT:Let me interrupt a second, Mr. Denney. We appear to have some German and some English copies. Let's get this straightened out.\nMR. DENNEY:Yes, sir, I am very sorry.\nMr. Niebergall's affidavit, which was executed on 3 December 1946, reads as follows:\n\"I, Fred Niebergall, A.G.O. D-150636, of the Office of Chief of Counsel for War Crimes, do hereby certify as follows:\n\"1. I was appointed Chief of the Document Control Branch, Evidence Division, Office of Chief of Counsel for War Crimes (hereinafter referred to as 'OCC') on 2 October 1946.", "speakers": [ "MR. PRESIDENT", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 38, "page_number": "", "date": "03 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-03", "text": "\"2. I have served in the U.S. Army for more than five years, being discharged as a 1st Lieutenant, Infantry, on 29 October 1946. I am now a reserve officer with the rank of 1st Lieutenant in the Army of the U.S. of America. Based upon my experience as a U.S. Army Officer, I am familiar with the operation of the U.S. Army in connection with the seizing and processing 29(a) of captured enemy documents.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 39, "page_number": "30", "date": "03 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-03", "text": "I served as Chief of Translations for OCC from 29 July 1945 until December 1945, when I was appointed liaison officer between Defense Counsel and the Translation Division of OCC and assistant to the executive officer of the Translation Division. In my capacity as Chief of the Document Control Branch, Evidence Division, OCC, I am familiar with the processing, filing, translation, and photostating of documentary evidence for the United States Chief of Counsel.\n\"3. As the Army overran German occupied territory and then Germany itself, certain specialized personnel seized enemy documents, records, and archives. Such documents were assembled in temporary centers. Later fixed document centers were established in Germany and Austria where these documents were assembled and the slow process of indexing and cataloguing was begun. Certain of these document centers have since been closed and the documents assembled there sent to other document centers.\n\"4. In preparing for the trial before the International Military Tribunal (hereinafter referred to as 'IMT') a great number of original documents, photostats, and microfilms were collected at Nuernberg, Germany. Major Coogan's affidavit of 19 November 1945 describes the procedures followed. Upon my appointment as Chief of the Document Control Branch, Evidence Division, OCC, I received custody, in the course of official business, of all these documents except the ones which were introduced into evidence in the IMT trial and are now in the IMT Document Room in Nuernberg. Some have been screened, processed, and registered in accordance with Major Coogan's affidavit. The unregistered documents remaining have been screened, processed, and registered for use in trials before military tribunals substantially in the same way as described below.\n\"5. In preparing for trials subsequent to the IMT trial, personnel thoroughly conversant with the German language were given the task of searching for and selecting captured enemy documents which disclosed information relating to the prosecution of Axis war criminals. Lawyer and Research Analysts were placed on duty at various document centers and also dispatched on individual missions to obtain original documents or certified photostats thereof.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 40, "page_number": "31", "date": "03 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-03", "text": "The documents were screened by German speaking analysts to determine whether or not they might be valuable as evidence. Photostatic copies were then made of the original documents and the original documents returned to the files in the document centers. These photostatic copies were certified by the analysts to be true and correct copies of the original documents. German speaking analysts, either at the document center or in Nurnberg, then prepared a summary of the document with appropriate reference to personalities involved, index headings, information as to the source of the document, and the importance of the documents to a particular division of OCC.\n\"6. Next, the original document or certified photostatic copy was forwarded to the Document Control Branch, Evidence Division, OCC. Upon receipt of these documents, they were duly recorded and indexed and given identification numbers in one of six series designated by the letters: 'NC', 'NI' 'NM' 'NOKW' and 'NP', indicating the particular Division of OCC which might be most interested in the individual documents. Within each series, documents were listed numerically.\n\"7. In the case of the receipt of criminal documents, photostatic copies were made. Upon return from the Photostat Room, the original documents were placed in envelopes in fireproof safes in tho Document Room. In the case of the receipt of certified photostatic copies of documents, the certified photostatic copies were treated in the same manner as the original documents.\n\"8. All original documents or certified photostatic copies treated as originals are now located in safes in the Document Room, where they will be secure until they are presented by the Prosecution to a court during the progress of a trial.\n\"9. Therefore, I certify in my official capacity as herein above stated, that all documentary evidence relied upon the OCC is in the same condition as when captured by military forces under the command of the Supreme Commander, Allied Expeditionary Forces; that they have been translated by competent qualified translators; that all photostatic copies are true and correct copies of the criminals, and that they have been correctly filed, numbered, and processed as above outlined.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 41, "page_number": "32", "date": "03 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-03", "text": "Signed: Fred Niebergall.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 42, "page_number": "33", "date": "03 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-03", "text": "\"The Niebergall affidavit, as I have mentioned before, is in substance the same as the Coogan affidavit which was accepted by the International Military Tribunal as sufficient authentication of documents used in the case before that Tribunal. However, in addition to these affidavits, the Prosecution in this case will attach to each document submitted in evidence, other than self-proving documents such as affidavits signed by the defendants, a certificate signed by an employee of the Evidence Division of the Office of Chief of Counsel for War Crimes, reading for example as follows:\n'I, Donald Spencer, of the Evidence Division of the Office of Chief of Counsel for War Crimes, hereby certify that the attached document, consisting of one photostated page and entitled, 'Letter from John Doe to Richard Roe, dated 19 June 1943' is the original of a document which was delivered to me in my above capacity, in the usual course of official business, as a true copy of a document found in German archives, records and files captured by military forces under the command of the Supreme Commander, Allied Expeditionary Forces.\n'To the best of my knowledge, information and belief, the original document is at the Berlin Document Center' or wherever it may be.\n\"At as early a date as possible, in all cases in which a photostatic copy was available, the Prosecution sent to the Defendants' Information Center one such copy of the documents which it intended to use in its case in chief. In addition, on 5 December 1946, the Prosecution consented to the furnishing of a German copy of all Central Planning Board Minutes. Thus, the bulk of the Prosecution's documents have been in the hands of the Defense Counsel for some time.\nThe Prosecution has prepared document books in both German and English of the documents on which it will rely during its case in chief. These are principally mimeographed copies and each book contains an index which sets out the document number, a short description, the page number and a space for writing in the index number of the document on its admission in evidence.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 43, "page_number": "34", "date": "03 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-03", "text": "The books themselves and the documents within each book are arranged substantially in the order in which they will be presented.\nThe Prosecution will follow the rule which requires that one official copy in German of each document book be filed in the Defendant's Information Center at least 24. hours prior to the time of introduction in Court. In addition, the Defendant's Information Center will receive one unofficial copy in German and one photostatic copy in German of each document book used by the Prosecution. Six official copies of the German document books will be presented to the Tribunal, one for each of the justices and two for the Secretary General. Two of these will contain photostatic copies so that the Tribunal may be able to refer to the original. Copies will also be made available to the German interpreters and to the Court Reporters.\nThe English document books will contain certified translations of the documents in the German document books, numbered and indexed so as to correspond to the arrangement in the German document books. A copy of each English document book will be deposited in the Defendant's Information Center and sufficient copies will be distributed to the interpreters and Court Reporters.\nThe Secretary General's office will receive six copies of the English document books for the use of the Tribunal.\nAt various times, unintentionally or unavoidable, the Presecution may fail to observe the procedure outlined above, or may overlook some other rule of the Court. We respectfully request in advance that any such omissions may be ascribed to our inexperience in the presentation of a case in two languages, rather than to any lack of effort to comply with the Court's rule.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 44, "page_number": "35", "date": "03 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-03", "text": "On occasions it may be necessary for us to introduce documents which are not in a book, the reasons being that matters of omission in processing or lateness of translation, or any one of a number of other causes, or were left out through some inadvertence. At that time we will advise the Court and comply with the rule by presenting the document sufficiently in advance to Dr. Bergold so there will be no question about it.\nJust in passing - in the case this morning there were two or three documents which have been listed but which will be left out for the moment because adequate copies couldn't be obtained, or the stencils were bad and couldn't be read. At some later time we hope to produce them and insert them in the proper place in the record.\nJUDGE PHILLIPS:Does Exhibit 1 comprise both Coogan's and Niebergall's affidavits?\nMR. DENNEY:If your Honors please, we had indicated that Exhibit 1 would be Coogan's affidavit and Exhibit 2 Niebergall's Affidavit, unless your Honors would rather have it another way.\nTHE PRESIDENT:That is all right.\nMR DENNEY:We come new to the first document which is in your Honors' Document Book. Beginning at page 1-1 actually is the 6th page but it is the first page after the index. This is Document Book 1-A that has the index. I believe there is no index in Document Book 1-B. The index continues over from 1-A for both books. I would like to offer this document in evidence, it being No. L 79, and we offer it as Prosecution exhibit No. 3. It is a secret copy of the minutes of a conference held 23 May 1939. The place in which the conference was held was Hitler's study in the New Reich Chancellery. The copy indicates that the Adjutant on duty, Lt. Col. Schmundt of the General Staff Corps, also made the notes. His signature appears on page 7. Present at the conference were Hitler; Field Marshal Goering, Commander in Chief of the Luftwaffe; Grand Admiral Raeder, at that time Commander in Chief of the Navy; Colonel General von Brauchitsch, later Field Marshal von Brauchitsch, at that time Commander in Chief of the Army; Colonel General Keitel, later Field Marshal Keitel, the Chief of Staff at the Oberkommando Wehrmacht, which was set up subsequent to this meeting; the defendant, then Colonel General Milch; in addition General of Artillery Halder; General Bodonschatz; Rear Admiral Schniewindt; Colonel Jeschennel; Colonel Warlimont; the afore mentioned Lt. Colonel Schmundt; Captain Angel, of the army; Lt. Commander Albrecht of the navy; and Captain von Below - the latter three acting as aides.", "speakers": [ "THE PRESIDENT", "MR DENNEY", "JUDGE PHILLIPS", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 45, "page_number": "36", "date": "03 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-03", "text": "Your Honors will note that the subject of this is: Indoctrination on the political situation and future aims.\nJUDGE PHILLIPS:Mr. Denney, what evidence do you have as to who was present?\nMR. DENNEY:It is recited, if your Honors please, on the first page of the document. Now here we have Hitler calling to a conference, some few months prior to the time the invasion of Poland was started, which as the Court knows took place 1 September 1939, a group of some fourteen men to whom he was explaining the situation so far as the political aims of the Nazi party were concerned, and also its future aims so far as conduct of the war and various other necessarily allied elements. I don't think it is necessary to read in detail from the first two pages. However, it is worthy of note in passing that Lt. Colonel Schmund stated that the Fuehrer defines as the purpose of the conference: \"1) Analysis of the situation. 2) Definition of the tasks for the armed Forces arising from the situation. 3) Exposition of the consequences of those tasks. 4) Ensuring the secrecy of all decisions and work resulting from these consequences. Secrecy is the first essential for success. It then follows that the Fuehrer's observations are given in systematized form below.\"", "speakers": [ "JUDGE PHILLIPS", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 46, "page_number": "37", "date": "03 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-03", "text": "The first part has to do with the settlement of the well known question of lebenstraum for the German people and Hitler makes a short summary of the fact that 80 million people solved the ideological problems and then proceeds to state that the national policy is as of this month.\nIt is to be noted on page 2, 8 lines from the bottom. It states: \"The population of non-German areas will perform no military service, and will be available as a source of labor.\"\nThen on page 3 he goes into some more comments on the attack upon Poland. It is clearly indicated there that they mean to attack Poland even at this early date.\nOn page 4, art the top, he states \"The war with England and France will be a life and death struggle. The idea that we can get off cheaply is dangerous; there is no such possibility. We must burn our boats, and it is no longer a question of justice or injustice, but of life or death for 80 milling human beings.\"\nAnd then it is worthy of note in the next paragraph he states, \"Every country's armed forces of government must aim at a short war. The government, however, must also be prepared for a war of 10-15 years duration.\"", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 47, "page_number": "38", "date": "03 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-03", "text": "I'm sorry; there were some notes I wanted to call the Court's attention to on the second page, again tending to show at this early date the magnitude of the problem that was facing the German people, at least as it was expressed by Hitler, and the fact that he had called these men here, which will be seen later in the document, to advise them that certain procedures were to be taken and that a special staff was to be set up for the conduct of this war.\nAt the top of page two it will be noted that:\n\"A mass of 80,000,000 people have solved the ideological problem; so, too, must the ecomonic. problem be solved. No German can evade the creation of the necessary economic conditions for him. The solution of the problems demands courage. The principle by which one evades solving the problems be adapting oneself to circumstances is enadmissible. Circumstances must, rather, be adapted to aims. This is impossible without invasion of foreign states or attack upon foreign property. Living space in proportion to the magnitude of the state is a basis of all power. One may refuse for a time to face the problem, but finally it is solved one way or the other. The choice is between advancement or decline. In 15 or 20 years' time we shall be compelled to find a solution. No German statesman can evade the question longer that that.\n\"We are at present in a state of patriotic fervour , which is shared by two other nations: Italy and Japan.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 48, "page_number": "39", "date": "03 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-03", "text": "And then, dropping down and omitting the part where he speaks about Danzig and the Polish Corridor, there is one short note just below the point where he says, \"There is no other possibility for Europe,\" speaking of colonies, he says:\n\"Beware of gifts of colonial territory. This does not solve the food problem. Remember -- blockade.\"\nThen, going over to page 5, about the middle of the page -there is a Roman numeral I to the left with a parenthesis:\n\"The effort must be made to deal the enemy a significant or the final decisive blow right at the start. Considerations of right and wrong or treaties do not enter into the matter. This will only be possible if we are not involved in a war with England on account of Poland.\"\nAgain directing the Court's attention to the fact that throughout this speech he indicated that nothing mattered so long as Germany went ahead.\nThen, the last of the five listed items under \"Consequences\" on the same page, he says, \"Germany will not bleed to death on land.\"\nGoing over to the top of page 6, following Number 3, \"The unrestricted use of all resources is essential.\n\"Once the army, in cooperation with the Air Force and Navy, has taken the most important positions, industrial production will cease to flow into the bottomless pit of the Army's battles and can be diverted to benefit the Air Force and Navy.\"\nDropping down about six lines, paragraph beginning with Number 5:\n\"This applies to gas, submarines and the Air Force. It would be true of the latter, for instance, as long as the English Fleet had not available counter-measures; it will no longer be the case in 1940 and 1941. Against Poland, for example, tanks will be effective, as the Polish Army possesses no counter-measures.\"\nThen, again on the same page, to show that he is considering the various possibilities even at this early date:", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 49, "page_number": "40", "date": "03 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-03", "text": "\"A correct estimate of weapons and their effectiveness: e.g., (a) Battleship or aircraft carrier, which is the more effective? Individually or considered as a whole?\n\"(b) Is air attack more important on a factory than on a battleship? Where are bottlenecks in production located?\"\nThen he goes on, down to the bottom of the page, where he speaks of the \"Study of the enemy's weak points.\" This is of great importance because at this time was when Hitler first announced that he was taking away from the German General Staff what had prior to this time been their own particular functions and that he was going to set up this OKW, the Oberkommando Wehrmacht, and here, in substance, were the men who were to be spread throughout all of the German army, navy and Luftwaffe being taken into his confidence about this.\n\"A study of the enemy's weak points:\n\"These studies must not be left to the General Staff. Secrecy could no longer be guaranteed.\n\"The Fuehrer has therefore decided to to order the formation of a small planning staff as OKW.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 50, "page_number": "41", "date": "03 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-03", "text": "It will keep the Fuehrer informed and report to him.\n\"The planning staff is responsible for the planning of operations on the highest level, and of the technical preparations and organization necessarily required by the decision taken.\n\"The purpose of certain regulations concerns no one outside the staff.\"\nIn other words, all they did was to tell them what they do, and they did it. Nobody told them why.\n\"However great are the increases in the armament of our adversaries, they must at some time come to the end of their resources, and ours will be greater.\"\nDropping down on page 7:\n\"Secrecy is the decisive requirement for success. Our object must be kept secret even from Italy or Japan. The break-through the Maginot line is still a possibility for Italy and must be studied. The Fuehrer considers that such a breakthrough is possible.\"\nThen he goes on to state, \"The close combination of the services, for the study of the problem in its entirety, is important.\n\"The Object:\n\"1. The study of the problem in its entirety.\n\"2. Study of the procedure.\n\"3. Study of the necessary requirements.\n\"4. Study of the necessary training.\"\nDropping down to the \"Working Principles:\n\"No one must be admitted who is not concerned.\n\"No one may know more than it is necessary for him to know.\n\"When must the person concerned know, at latest? No one may know of a matter earlier than is necessary for him to know of it.\n\"At the request of Field Marshal Goering, the Fuehrer decrees that:\n\"The various services shall decide what construction is to be undertaken.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 51, "page_number": "", "date": "03 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-03", "text": "\"There shall be no alterations in the shipbuilding program.\n\"The armaments program are to be considered with regards to 1943 or 41 a 1944.\"", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 52, "page_number": "42", "date": "03 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-03", "text": "It is signed by Lieutenant Colonel Schmundt.\nIt is apparent from this that at this early date, in May, 1939, they were even then preparing and that the defendant, at that time a Colonel General, not a Field Marshal, was certainly in as high a position as one could have been in Germany at the time. I think all the Court has to do is look at the list of those present to see what elite company he was traveling in.\nWe now come to the next document, which isPS-1375, which will be Exhibit 4. This is a letter of January 25, 1940 from Frank to Goering.\nI might mention that these documents that are now being put in represent a screening of the slave laboe documents in the first trial. I do not want to burden Your Honors with all of them that were put in, but we went over them and we believe that the forty that we have clearly show the picture of the way slave labor was being brought into Germany and the way it was treated, and when we get into the Central Planning Board Minutes, which are in part -- or rather, all, in Document Book Number 2, then we can see what connection the defendant had with it.\nThis letter has to do with \"The execution of the task of systematically placing the economic strength of the Generalgovernment of Poland within the framework of the Four Year Plan, in the service of the German defense industry,\" and Frank makes this report to Goering. I do not think that there is anything on the first page which needs to be read. However, on page two, Paragraph 2 (d), which is the first full paragraph, he says:\n\"Exploitation, if necessary also partial expansion, of the industrial capacity existing in the Generalgovernment, in order to execute as rapidly as possible the Wehrmacht orders to be placed by the Reich in the Generalgovernment while maintaining production of those products which are absolutely vital for the running of the economic machinery in the Generalgovernment even if the strictest standards are applied.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 53, "page_number": "", "date": "03 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-03", "text": "(e) Maintenance of the productive capacity of those plants to which Wehrmacht orders have not get been assigned but which are chosen as replace-\n42 a ment plants for militarily vital factories which have been or will be evacuated in the Reich.\"", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 54, "page_number": "43", "date": "03 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-03", "text": "Skipping to (g):\n\"Supply and transportation of at least one million male and female agricultural and industrial workers to the Reich, among them at least 750,000 agricultural workers of which at least 50 per cent must be women, in order to guarantee agricultural production in the Reich and as replacement for industrial workers lacking in the Reich.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 55, "page_number": "44", "date": "03 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-03", "text": "Then, skipping over to page 3, which is page 10 in Your Honor's Document Book, \"f. that, in order to insure the necessary supply of Polish workers in the Reich, the labor offices harmonize the recruiting of labor requirements in the General Government. The shipping will take place early enough to be completed early in the course of April, that the transfer of savings of those workers who came to the Reich merely as migratory workers, then, passing over to page 11, page 4 of the document, \"the collection of leather and old material, the gathering of scrap are to be pushed forward according to plan. In view of the social conditions in the General Government, Jewish dealers who can be freed for this purpose from forced service and so forth, may also be engaged.\"\nWe will, at this time, pass the next document because it is still in process, it being number 2233 PSA, and go to 2233 PFB, which is the fourth one listed in Your Honor's Document book, at page 13. This is an excerpt from the diary of the same Franck \"who was Governor General of Poland, and who wrote the letter to Goering which is Exhibit 4.\nPRESIDENT:What exhibit number would you give this, Mr. Denney\nMR. DENNEY:Number 5, sir. If Your Honor please, I think it's better to keep them running along serially, and when we want to insert one we can give it a letter number, if that is agreeable to you. We can make the one ahead of 4, 4-A; otherwise we'll have gaps as we go along.\nI'm just advised now that \"B\" is missing from the German book too, so, if Your Honor pleases, we'll leave out 2233PS thistime completely and go down to page 14 of Your Honor's book, and we'll call this Exhibit No. 3. This is a confidential report, signed by one \"Kusher.\" We have not been able to identify him other than that. It was made in May of 1940. It has to do with the achievement of confiscations of Polish agricultural enterprises, for the purpose of transferring Poles to the old Reich and to employ them as agricultural workers. I think the particular parts of the document, which are of interest appear in the last several lines of the first page, beginning with the part that's underlined:", "speakers": [ "PRESIDENT", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 56, "page_number": "", "date": "03 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-03", "text": "\"The former owners of Polish farms, together with their families, will be transferred to the Old Reich by the 44 a employment agencies for employment as farm workers.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 57, "page_number": "45", "date": "03 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-03", "text": "In this way many hundred Polish agricultural workers can be placed at the disposal of agriculture in the Old Reich, in the shortest and simplest manner. In this way, the most pressing shortage is removed, which is now, in a very disagreeable manner felt, especially in the root crop district. Besides, the shepherds who are still working in the confiscated and formerly settled enterprises and who are superfluous, are to be removed into the Old Reich, for until now they were only a burden for the respective enterprise, for they are too numerous. In this way, Polish agricultural workers can be made free to the Old Reich.\"\nIf Your Honor please, Dr. Bergold has just advised that the copy of Exhibit 5, which is in his document book in German, is so badly stenciled that he is unable to read it. So, with the Court's permission at this time, I shall withdraw the offer of Exhibit 5, until such time as we can get a German copy which is legible.\nDR. BERGOLD:It is not a copy badly legible, but something is missing, several pages of this document are missing. But if the prosecutor just wanted to refer to these, it is just these missing pages which are needed. However, I do not want to detain proceedings; they can continue. It will be satisfactory if we obtain the missing pages subsequently.\nPRESIDENT:I believe a proper copy has just been put on your desk. Let's wait just a minute to see if it is a proper copy. Mr. Denney, will you take a look at the copy which has just been given to Dr. Bergold?\nMR. DENNEY:If Your Honor please, it seems that the document which is in the German Document Book has the same number, 1352 PS, and has to do with the same dates; there is also a document signed by a man named \"Kusher\" but it is not the same document as the 1352PS wehave in English, so, with Your Honor's permission, we will leave the number 5 to be assigned to this document at the time when we clear it up, but withdraw its offer at this time, subject to renewing the offer at a later time, when the German copy and the English copy can be made to coincide, one with the other.", "speakers": [ "PRESIDENT", "DR. BERGOLD", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 58, "page_number": "", "date": "03 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-03", "text": "PRESIDENT:Well then, Exhibit 5 is neither offered nor admitted in evidence at this time.\n45 a", "speakers": [ "PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 59, "page_number": "46", "date": "03 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-03", "text": "MR. DENNEY:Thank you, sir.\nIf Your Honor please, the next document which we offer as Number 6, is ED 68, which is the letter of March 6, 1941, being a confidential letter from the Ministry of Finance and Economy at Baden, containing directives on the treatment of Polish farm workers. Although this document is some two pages long, I should like to read it rather at length, to show what the treatment was of these people who were benefitting from the protection of the so-called Government General in inland. \"Subject: Directives on the treatment of foreign farmworkers of Polish Nationality\" \"The agencies of the Reich Food Administration - State Peasant Association of Baden have received the result of the negotiations with the Higher SS and Police Officers in Stuttgart on 14 February 1941, with great satisfaction.\nAppropriate memoranda have already been turned over to the District Peasants Associations. Below, I promulgate the individual regulations, as they have been laid down during the conference and how they are now to be applied accordingly.\"\nIn these, Your Honor, are the conditions under which laborers sent from Poland to Germany - Stuttgart and Baden - work.\n\"Fundamentally, farmworkers of Polish nationality no longer have the right to complain, and thus no complaints may be accepted any more by any official agency.\n\"The farmworkers of Polish nationality may not leave the localities in which they are employed, and have a curfew from 1 October to 31 March from 2000 hours to 0600 hours, and from 1 April to 30 September from 2100 hours to 0500 hours.\n\"The use of bicycles is strictly prohibited. Exceptions are possible, for riding to the place of work in the field, if a relative of the employer or the employer himself is present.\n\"The visit of churches, regardless of faith, is strictly prohibited, even when there is no service in progress. Individual spiritual care by clergymen outside of the church is permitted.", "speakers": [ "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 60, "page_number": "47", "date": "03 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-03", "text": "\"Visits to theaters, motion pictures or other cultural entertainment are strictly prohibited for farmworkers of Polish nationality.\n\"The visit of restaurants is strictly prohibited to farmworkers of Polish nationality except for one restaurant in the village, which will be selected by the Rural Councillor's Office, and then only one day per week. The day, which is determined as the day to visit the restaurant, will also be determined by the Landratsamt. This regulation does not change the curfew regulation, mentioned above under no. 2.\n\"Sexual intercourse with women and girls is strictly prohibited, and wherever it is established, it must be reported.\n\"Gatherings of farmworkers of Polish nationality after work is prohibited, whether it is on other farms, in the stables or in the living quarters of the Poles.\n\"The use of railroads, buses or other public conveyances by farmworkers of Polish nationality is prohibited.\n\"Permits to leave the village may only be granted in very exceptional cases, by the local police authority. However, in no case may it be granted if he wants to visit a public agency on his own, whether it is a labor office or the District Peasants Association or whether he wants to change his place of employment.\n\"Arbitrary change of employment is strictly prohibited. The farmworkers of Polish nationality have to work daily so long as the interests, of the enterprise demands it, and as it is demanded by the employer. There are no time limits to the working time.\n\"Every employer has the right to give corporal punishment toward farmworkers of Polish nationality, if instructions and good words fail. The employer may not be held accountable in any such case by an official agency.\n\"Farmworkers of Polish nationality should if possible be removed from the community of the home, and they can be quartered in stables etc. No remorse whatever should restrict such action.\n\"Report to the authorities is compulsory in all cases, when crimes have been committed by farmworkers of Polish nationality, which are to sabotage the enterprise or slow down work, for instance unwillingness to work, impertinent behavior; it is compulsory even in minor cases.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 61, "page_number": "48", "date": "03 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-03", "text": "An employer, who loses his Pole who must serve a longer prison sentence because of such a compulsory report, will receive another Pole from the competent labor office on request with preference.\n\"In all other cases, only the state police is still competent.\n\"For the employer himself, severe punishment is contemplated, if it is established that the necessary distance from farm workers of Polish nationality has not been kept. The same applies to women and girls. Extra rations are strictly prohibited. Noncompliance of the Reich tariffs for farm workers of Polish nationality will be punished by the competent labor office by the taking away of the worker.\n\"In any case of doubt, the State Peasants Association -IB will give information.\n\"Forwarding in writing of the above agreement to the farm workers of Polish nationality is strictly prohibited.\n\"These regulations do not apply to Poles who are still prisoners of war and are thus subordinated to the armed forces. In this case, the regulations published by the armed forces apply.\"\n\"Heil Hitler!\"\nBy order /s/ Dr. KLOTZ", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 62, "page_number": "49", "date": "03 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-03", "text": "JUDGE SPEIGHT:Do you establish a chain between all of these documents which you read and the Defendant?\nMR. DENNEY:If your Honor please, the Prosecution has in mind in presenting these documents to give an overall picture of the way slave labor was treated in Germany, going back to the early days showing that this Defendant knew because of attendance at the May, 1939 conference that slave labor was going to be employed. Then as Generalluftzeugmeister, later as Chief of the Jaegerstab, and later as a member of the Central Planning Board, we will connect him with enterprises involving slave labor.\nJUDGE SPEIGHT:Very well.\nMR. DENNEY:The next document which is listed on your Honors' index is 3044-PS which we pass at this time if your Honor please, and we will assign Number 7 to 3005-PS. This is a letter from the Reich Labor Ministry to Presidents of the Regional Labor offices concerning Russian prisoners of war. The letter is dated August-\nDR. BERGOLD:May it please the Tribunal, I was given the wrong document. The document given to me, No. 3005, refers to the production of household goods for air raid casualties.\nMR. DENNEY:Well, if your Honor please, we have nothing to do with the preparation of these German books. We just send them down, and we assume that they will send up the proper ones. This apparently is another instance just the same as the earlier one, 13 --- or 2233-PS, rather, 1352-PS -\nDR. BERGOLD:I was just told that the No. 3005 in my book is the right document.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Is it all straightened out, Mr. Denney?\nMR. DENNEY:Yes. Dr. Bergold apparently has two documents number 3005-PS. One is the right one and one is the wrong one, so we can continue with this letter of August 26, 1941. Paragraph 1 of the letter states: \"Upon personal order of the Reich Marshal, 100,000 men are to be taken among the French Prisoners of War not yet employed in armament industry, and are to he assigned to the armament industry (airplane industry). Gaps in manpower supply resulting therefrom will he filled by Soviet Prisoners of 49a War.", "speakers": [ "JUDGE SPEIGHT", "DR. BERGOLD", "MR. DENNEY", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 64, "page_number": "50", "date": "03 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-03", "text": "The transfer of the above-named French Prisoners of War is to be accomplished by 1 October.\n\"Russian Prisoners of war can be utilized only in quite large concentrated groups under the well-known, tougher employment conditions. In the civilian field the Regional Labor Exchange Offices will have to determine immediately those work projects where French prisoners of war can be withdrawn and replaced by Soviet groups. For the time being, no additional assignment of Soviet Prisoners of War can be considered. Initially, all replacement possibilities must be completely exhausted. Similarly, all French Prisoners of War no longer needed are not to be channeled into agriculture and forestry any more, but exclusively into armament industry (aircraft industry).\"\nTurning over to Page 2, which is Page 24 in your Honors' book, the last part of the full paragraph on the page: \"Since the determining factor in the allocation of Soviet Prisoners of War are military and counterintelligence considerations, final decision about the exchange rests with Service Command Headquarters.\n\"The first 100,000 French Prisoners of War shall be channeled into the aircraft industry.\"\nTHE PRESIDENT:This Tribunal will take the usual recess at this time.\nMR. DENNY:Your Honor please, could I ask how long will the recess be?\nTHE PRESIDENT:I beg your pardon?\nMR. DENNY:How long will it be? Fifteen minutes?\nTHE PRESIDENT:Well, approximately. We will say fifteen minutes.\n(A recess was taken.)\nTHE MARSHAL:All persons will rise. The Tribunal is again in session. Be seated.\nMR. DENNY:Your Honor please, the next document listed isEC-194which will become Prosecution's Exhibit No. 8. This is a memorandum of October 31, 1941, prepared by Field Marshal Keitel. Its first two paragraphs are as follows:", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "MR. DENNY", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 65, "page_number": "51", "date": "03 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-03", "text": "-- the title of the memorandum is \"Use of Prisoners of War in the War Industry.\"\n\"The lack of workers is becoming an increasingly dangerous hindrance for the future German war and armament industry. The expected relief through discharges from the armed forces is uncertain as to extent and date, however, its possible extent will by no means correspond to expectations and requirements in view of the great demand.\n\"The Fuehrer has now ordered that even the working power of the Russian prisoners of war should be utilized to a large extent by large scale assignment for the requirements of the war industry, The prerequisite for production is adequate nourishment. Also very small wages are to be planned for the most modest supply with a few consumers' goods for every day's life, eventual rewards for production,\" and thereafter he lists various v-rays in which they can be employed.\nSubheading II speaks of construction and armament industry:\n\"Work units for constructions of all kind, particularly for the fortification of coastal defenses (concrete workers, unloading units for essential war plants).\n\"Suitable armament factories which have to be selected in such a way that their personnel should consist in the majority of prisoners of war under guidance and supervision (eventually after withdrawal and other employment of the German workers.)\" The next document is 1206-PS which becomes No. 9 which are some notes prepared on some remarks made by Goering at a meeting in the Reich Ministry of Air on 7 November 1941.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 66, "page_number": "52", "date": "03 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-03", "text": "The middle of this first page speaks about employment of Russian prisoners of war, as a rule employment in groups no individual employment, not even in agriculture. Guard personnel, not only soldiers but also foremen, at least during the working time proper. As a rule soldiers in the camp.\nTurning over to the second page, which is Page 28 in your Honors' document book, speaking of employment of the prisoners in the Interior and the Protectorates of Bohemia and Moravia, ho said, \"It would be ideal if entire factories could be manned by Russian Prisoners of liar except the employees necessary for direction. For employment in the Interior and the Protectorate the following arc to have priority:\n\"At the top coal mining industry.\nOrder by the Fuehrer to investigate all mines as to suitability for employment of Russian. At times manning the entire plant with Russian laborers.\n\"Transportation (construction of locomotives and cars, repair-shops). Railroad repair and industry workers are to be sought out from the Prisoners of 'Jar. Railroad is most important means of transportation in the East.\n\"Armament industries.\nPreferably factories of arms and guns. Possibly also construction of parts for airplane engines. Suitable complete sections of factories to be manned exclusively by Russians. For the remainder employment in columns Use in factories of tool machinery, production of farm tractors, generators etc.\nIn emergency, erection individual places barracks for occasional workers which are used as unloading details and similar purposes.\"\nAnd then dropping down and speaking about the various food, clothing and supplies, where there is a note saying about food, \"Food is a matter of the Four Years' Plan. Supply their own food ( cats, horses etc.)\" \"Clothes, billeting messing somewhat better than at home where part of the people live in caverns.\n\"Supply of shoes for Russians as a rule wooden shoes, if necessary install Russian shoe repair shops.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 67, "page_number": "53", "date": "03 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-03", "text": "\"Examination of physical fitness, in order to avoid importation of diseases.\nAt the bottom of the page, speaking about labor program generally, \"Rather employ prisoners of war than unsuitable foreign workers. Seize Poles, Dutchmen, etc. if necessary as prisoners of war and employ them as such, if work through free contract cannot be obtained. Strong action.\"\nThen turning to Page 29 about half way down that page, about four paragraphs before the end, \"Foreigners not to be treated like German workers, on the other hand do not provoke inferiority complex in foreigners by posters.\n\"The welfare installations of the Labor Front (DAF) are under no circumstances to be used for prisoners of war or Eastern workers.\n\"All agencies are to promote maximum utilization of Russian manpower.\"\nThe next document, which is document 3040-PS, which are copies of secret orders of the Reich Fuehrer SS Heinrich Himmler, concerning commitment of manpower from the East. This will become Exhibit No. 10.\nOn Page 32 of your Honors' document book, which is page 3 of the exhibit, and at the bottom of the page, speaking of combating violations against discipline, Paragraph (2).\n\"In severe cases, that is in such cases where the measures at the disposal of the leader of the guard do not suffice, the state police office has to act with its means. Accordingly, they will be treated, as a rule, only with strict measures, that is with transfer to a concentration camp or with special treatment.\n\"Transfer to a concentration camp is done in the usual manner.\"\nTurning to Page 33, we see the meaning of special treatment. Special treatment is hanging. Hanging should not take place in the immediate vicinity of the camp. A certain number of the manpower from the original Soviet Russian territory should attend the special treatment; at that time they are warned about the circumstances which led to this special treatment.\nThen dropping down the page to Item VI, Sexual Intercourse. Sexual intercourse is forbidden to the manpower of the original Soviet Russian territory.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 68, "page_number": "54", "date": "03 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-03", "text": "By means of their closely confined quarters they have no opportunity for it. Should sexual intercourse be exercised nevertheless -especially among the individually employed manpower on the farms - the following is directed:\nFor every case of sexual intercourse with German countrymen or women, special treatment is to be requested for male manpower from the original Soviet Russian territory, transfer to a concentration camp for female manpower.\nWhen it occurs with other foreign workers, the conduct of the manpower from the original Soviet Russian territory is to be punished as severe violation of discipline with transfer to a concentration camp.\nThen turning over to Page 34. Under the heading VIII \"Search.\" Fugitive workers from the original Soviet Russian territory are to be announced principally in the German search book. Furthermore, search measures are to be decreed locally. Too, when caught the fugitive must receive special treatment.\nDropping down to some general provisions on the same page, the third paragraph, this manpower must, under no circumstances, be put on the same level with the Poles or the manpower of the original Soviet Russian territory.\nI neglected to mention to the Court this is manpower from the Baltic states and not of Polish origin, from the Government General and from the annexed Eastern territories. That appears on B, in the middle of the page.\nThis manpower must, under no circumstances, be put on the same level as the Poles or the manpower of the original Soviet Russian territory, on account of their nations' fundamental antagonism toward the Polish people.\"\nTurning over to Page 35, speaking of breach of contract, under Section 3, the fourth paragraph there.\n\"In any other case, however, immediate action is necessary and, in case of a breach of contract on part of this manpower, the transfer to a concentration camp is to be ordered, as a rule. In cases of severe repetition the transfer to a concentration camp can also be requested.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 69, "page_number": "55", "date": "03 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-03", "text": "In the cases of breach of contracts handled by the state police, the arbitrator has to be informed each time about the decision.\"\nThe next document, is 1435-PS, which is a partial extract from a speech of the Reich Minister Speer, made to a gauleiter's meeting on 24 February 1942, at Munich. It becomes exhibit No. 11. He says on Page 4 of that speech, \"I am grateful to fate that, also Party member Dr. Todt, in January, personally ordered the complete stoppage of work on his Reichsautobahnen as well as released all specialists and German workers for the railroad construction in the East and his PW's for the armament industry.\"\nThe next extract, \"I therefore proposed to the Fuehrer at the end of December that all my labor force including specialists, be released for mass employment in the East. Subsequently the remaining PW's abt. 10,000, were put at the disposal of the Armaments industry by me.\"\nThe next document, which is No. D-316, is a memorandum, March 14th, 1942, from Dr. Hupe, having to do with allocation of Russian workers. It becomes document No. 12.\n\"During the last few days we have established that the food for the Russians employed here is so miserable that the people are getting weaker from day to day.\n\"Investigations showed that single Russians are not able to place a piece of metal for turning into position, for instance, because of lack of physical strength. The same conditions exist at all places of work, where Russians are employed.\n\"If it cannot be seen to, that the feeding is changed in such a way that a normal output can be demanded from these people, then the employment of these people, with the necessary expense connected thereto, ha.s been in vain; I do not think it is worth while employing any more Russians, from whom I cannot expect any results in production, although they are charged out to me as productive workers.\n\"I expect that the same auditions prevail inside all the other works.\"", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 70, "page_number": "56", "date": "03 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-03", "text": "DR. BERGOLD:I beg your pardon, Gentlemen, but what has just been read is not contained in my document book.\nMR. DENNY:If your Honor, please, we will have to withdraw Exhibit No. 12 at this time in the same manner as we have the others. I regret that these things are happening. There is no control that we have over it. Perhaps we can establish some sort of a liaison over the week end, and have some of our people check the book before it goes to the Germans. We assume when something is sent down to the proper place for translation and is sent to the Germans it is correct. I shall see tomorrow what can be done. I am extremely sorry. I would like to point out to the Court we never see the German copies, the way it is set up, except in the original. It is sent down for translation and is out of our hands. With your Honors' permission we will withdraw the offer of D-316, to which exhibit number 12 has been assigned and re-offer it at a later time.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Very well.\nMR. DENNY:The next document, is ol6-PS, which is Sauckel's labor nebilizatien program, dated August 20, 1942. As you were, April 20, 1942, which is Page 39 in your Honors' document book.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Mr. Denny, what exhibit number will this have?\nMR. DENNY:Exhibit No. 13, Your Honor, please. We certainly can find the original German of Exhibit No. 12, and I believe it has been marked on by Judge Dixon.\nTHE PRESIDENT:That Exhibit No. 12 has been offered and is not yet admitted?\nMR. DENNY:Yes, sir.\nTHE PRESIDENT:We will refer to document D 316 as Exhibit No. 12.\nMR. DENNY:That is what we plan to do, as marked. This will be Exhibit 13, document 016-PS. In passing it might be noted that this program is made at the time Sauckel was appointed Plenipotentiary General for Labor and shortly after the founding of the Central Planning Board. This particular copy which we have, which is one of five, is one which Sauckel sent to Rosenberg.", "speakers": [ "MR. DENNY", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 71, "page_number": "57", "date": "03 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-03", "text": "On Page 1, which is Page 40 of your Honors' document book, Sauckel outlines the aims of his labor program.\n\"The aim of this new, gigantic labor mobilization is to use all the rich and tremendous sources, conquered and secured for us by our fighting armed forces under the leadership of Adolf Hitler, for the armament of the Armed Forces and also for the nutrition of the Homeland. The raw materials as well as the fertility of the conquered territories and their human labor power are to be used completely and conscientiously to the profit of Germany and their allies.\"\nThen we pass over to Page 5, which is Page 43 in your Honors, document book. In the fourth paragraph, the last several lines of that paragraph, \" ** should we furthermore be able, also with the help of the party, to use the prisoners of war as well as civilian workmen and women of foreign blood not only without harm to our own people but to the greatest advantage to our war and nutrition industries, then wo will have accomplished the most difficult part of the labor mobilization program.\"\nAnd also in the first paragraph under \"The Task and its Solution\" heading, in parenthesis, \"(No figures are mentioned because of security reasons. I can assure you, nevertheless, that we are concerned with the greatest labor-problem of all times, especially with regard to figures.)\" And at a proper time when we get into the minutes of the Central Planning Board, we will show to your Honors that Sauckel indeed was not exaggerating.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 72, "page_number": "58", "date": "03 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-03", "text": "At page 44, which is page 6 and 7 of the German original, I believe about midway down the page starting with 3:\n\"The Armament and Nutrition tasks make it vitally necessary, not only to include the entire German labor power but also to call on foreign labor. Consequently, I immediately tripled the transport program which I found when I took charge of my mission. The main effort of that transport has been advanced into the months of May-June in order to assure in time and under any circumstances the availability of foreign labor power from the occupied territories for an increased production, in view of coming operations of the army, as well as agricultural labor in the sector of the German Nutrition Industry. All prisoners of war, from the territories of the West as well as of the East, actually in Germany, must be completely incorporated into the German armament and nutrition industries. Their production must be brought to the highest possible level. It must be emphasized, however, that an additional tremendous number of foreign labor has to be found for the Reich. The greatest pool for that purpose are the occupied territories of the East. Consequently, it is an immediate necessity to use the human reserves of the conquered Soviet territory to the fullest extent. Should we not succeed in obtaining the necessary amount of labor on a voluntary basis, we must immediately institute conscription or forced labor.\"\nThen turning over to page 11, which is page 49 in your Honors' book at the top of the page:\n\"Prisoners cf war and Foreign Workers. The complete employment of all prisoners of war as well as the use of a gigantic number of new foreign civilian workers, men and women, has become an undisputable necessity for the solution of the mobilization of labor program in this war. All the men must be fed, sheltered and treated in such a way as to exploit them to the highest possible at the lowest conceivable degree of expenditure. It has always been natural for us Germans to refrain from cruelty and mean chicaneries towards the beaten enemy, even if he has proven himself the most bestial and most implacable adversayr, and to treat him correctly and humanly, even when we expect useful work of him.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 73, "page_number": "", "date": "03 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-03", "text": "As long as the German defense industry didn't make it absolutely necessary, we refrained under any circumstances - -\nMR. BERGOLD:May it please your Honors, I have an objection to make. The translation which just came through shows one wrong German word. The sentence in the German language is \"All of these people must be fed and given billets, and treated so that they bring out the best work possible at the cheapest commitment.\" The word \"commitment\" is different to the word \"expenditure\". The word \"commitment\" means in German the cheapest use of human beings as such, but not the saving of expenditure with reference to food, housing, etc. I don't know how it is translated in the English language, unfortunately I cannot check that since I have no English copy of the English copy of the Document bock. I should therefore like to ask at this occasion that an English copy of the Document book be submitted to me which would enable me to check whether the translations into English correspond to the original German. In addition, I should value the English document book, since I could quote passages therefrom which are of importance to me. As the situation is now I can only quote the German pages and it would always be a waste of time for the High Tribunal to look for the English pages. If, however, the English document book were at my disposal, then I could always inform the Tribunal where the particular passage can be found in the English document book. This would facilitate the work of the High Tribunal and also my own work and I would suggest that the Tribunal make an order accordingly.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Mr. Denny, the purport of Dr. Bergold's request is that he be given an English transiation; given an English copy of the Document. Is that feasible? Can that be done?\nMR. DENNY:I see no reason why we can't give them an English copy in addition to the German copy insofar as this particular translation is concerned. It is my impression that this quotation appears in the Opinion of the International Military Tribunal in the first case, paragraph 2 of having to dc with prisoners of war and foreign workers and we can get to- 59 gather with Dr. Berfold and see what happened that the man who translated it, Lt. Gerard Schaeffer, who was formerly had of the Document Room made the mistake in translation.", "speakers": [ "MR. BERGOLD", "MR. DENNY", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 74, "page_number": "60", "date": "03 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-03", "text": "He was born in Germany and lived here for many years. I just noticed in reading his name, so that the translation may be a matter of argument. I can certify to the court that Lt. Schaeffer was completely conversant with the German language.\nTHE PRESIDENT:It is possible that two people may disagree. I suggest that we furnish Dr. Bergold with the English translation we are talking about and perhaps the academic argument can be ironed out. If not, the court is willing to hear the matters involved in the dispute. We will reserve that right to Dr. Bergold.\nMR DENNY:I will make those copies available to him today. If your Honors please, when I gave the statement about Lt. Schaeffer I was not in any way saying that two people could not disagree. I was merely trying to explain to the court a little about Lt. Schaeffer, whom I happened to know. Continuing to the fourth paragraph on page 49 of your Honors Document Book:\n\"As long as the German defense industry didn't make it absolutely necessary, we refrained under any circumstances from use of Soviet prisoners of war as well as of civilian workers, men or women, from the Soviet territories. This has now become impossible and the labor power of these people must now be exploited to the greatest extent.\"\nThe next document is A-129, which is a letter of April 30, 1942, from SS Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl to Himmler which becomes Document No. 14.\nTHE PRESIDENT:You mean Exhibit No. 14?\nMR. DENNY:I beg your pardon. Exhibit No. 14. It is a report on the inspection of concentration camps. The first list which is given is the concentration camps which were in existence at the outbreak of the war, together with the number of inmates with the added column of the number of inmates currently in those six concentration camps, and turning over to page 2, which is page 53 of your Honors book, paragraph 1, under section 2, on that page:", "speakers": [ "MR. DENNY", "MR DENNY", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 75, "page_number": "61", "date": "03 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-03", "text": "\"The war has brought about a marked change in the structure of the concentration camps and has changed their duties with regard to the employment of the prisoners. The custody of prisoners for the sole reasons of security, education, or prevention is no longer the main consideration. The mobilization of all prisoners who are fit for work, for purposes of the war new, and for purposes of construction in the forthcoming peace, come to the foreground more and more. From this knowledge necessary measures result with the aim to transform the concentration camps into organizations more suitable for the economic tasks, whilst they were formerly merely politically interested. For this reason I have gathered together all the leaders of the former inspectorate of Concentration camps, all Camp-Commanders,and all managers and supervisors of work on the 23rd and 24th April 1942. I have explained personally to them this new development. I have compiled in the order attached the mam essentials which have to be brought into effect with the utmost urgency if the commencement of work for purposes of the armament industry is not to be delayed.\"\nTurning over to page 54, which is Pohl's order which he refers to in his letter, I don't think we need to road all of it. Paragraph 4 of the order on page 54 states:\n\"The camp-commander alone is responsible for the employment of the labor available. This employment must be, in the true meaning of the word, exhaustive, in order to obtain the greatest measure of performance.\"", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 76, "page_number": "62", "date": "03 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-03", "text": "MR. BERGOLD:Incidentally, it is not contained in my document book, Your Honor.\nMR. DENNY:If your Honor please, we will withdraw -\nTHE PRESIDENT:Wait a minute until we clarify.\nMR. BERGOLD:Pardon me; I was on the wrong page.\nMR. DENNY:Turning then to page 54, the inclosed order of Pohl with his letter paragraph \"The camp commander alone is responsible for the employment of the labor available.\nThis employment must be in the true meaning of the word, exhaustive, in order to obtain the greatest measure of performance Paragraph 5:\"There is no limit to working hours.\nTheir duration depends on the kind of working establishments in the camps and the kind of work to be done. They are fixed by the camp commanders alone.\"\nParagraph 6:\n\"Any circumstances which may result in a shortening of work hours such as meals and roll-calls have therefore to be restricted to the minimum which cannot be condensed any more. It is forbidden to allow long walks to the place of working and noon intervals only for eating purposes.\" Paragraph 8 which appears on page 55 of your Honors' book:\n\"Much mere than before is required from each and every camp commander if they carry out his orders correctly. Hardly any camp is like any other one, therefore no uniform instructions shall be issued. But the whole responsibility is shifted on to the initiative of the camp commander. He needs a clear professional knowledge of matters military and economic and he must be a clever and wise leader of men, who he has to weld into a big potential of performance.\"\nThose camp commanders who were clever and wise and leaders of men commanded such installations as Dachau, Saxenhausen, Buchenwald and the rest of them listed on the first page. The next document -- we will pass 3044 for the time being and go on to 2241-PS 3 which will have the document number", "speakers": [ "MR. BERGOLD", "MR. DENNY", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 77, "page_number": "63", "date": "03 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-03", "text": "THE PRESIDENT:Exhibit number, please, instead of document number.\nMR. DENNEY:Exhibit No. 15. Turn to page 64 of your Honors document book. This is a SAUCKEL Decree dated. July 20, 1942. On page 64, the last four paragraphs above the bottom of the page he speaks of the conditions under which these forced laborers were transported to Germany.\n\"according to reports of transportation commanders presented to me, the special trains provided by the German Railway have frequently been in a really deficient condition. Numerous windowpanes have been missing in the coaches. Old French coaches without lavatories have been partly employed, so that the workers had to fit up an emptied compartment as a lavatory. In other cases the coaches were not heated in winter so that the lavatories quickly became unusable because the water system was frozen and the flushing apparatus was therefore without water.\" We will also pass at this time 3044 APS and the next document bearing Exhibit No. 16 will be 654-PS which are notes and discussion with Himmler concerning delivery of Jews to Himmler for extermination through work.\nThis was prepared by one Theurer. Page 1, paragraph \"b\" states;\n\"The Reich Minister for Justice will decide whether and when special treatment at the hands of the police is to be applied.\"\nI call your Honors' attention to the fact that \"special treatment\" is defined as hanging in the earlier documents. Paragraph 2 on the same page:\n\"The delivery of anti-social elements from the execution of their sentence to the Reich Fuehrer of SS to be worked to death. Persons under protective arrest, Jews, Gypsies, Russians and Ukrainians, Poles with more than three-year sentences, Czechs and Germans with more than eight-year sentences, according to the decision of the Reich Minister for Justice. First of all the worst anti-social elements amongst those just mentioned are to be handed over. I shall inform the Fuehrer of this through Reichsleiter Bormann.\"", "speakers": [ "MR. DENNEY", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 78, "page_number": "64", "date": "03 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-03", "text": "Turning over to page 62 at the bottom of the page, paragraph 14: \"It is agreed that in consideration of the intended aims of the Government for the clearing up of the Eastern problems, in future Jews, Poles, Gypsies, Russians, Ukrainians are no longer to be judged by the ordinary courts, so far as punishable offenses are concerned, but they are to be dealt with by the Reich Fuehrer of SS. This does not apply to civil lawsuits nor to Poles whose names are announced or entered in the German racial lists.\"\nWe shall have to pass over 084-PS at this time and we shall introduce Document 1903-PS which bears Exhibit No. 17. This is a Hitler decree and extension of the authority of the Deputy General for Labor dated 30 September 1942:\n\"I hereby authorize the Deputy General for the Arbeitscinsatz, Gauleiter Sauckel to take all necessary measures for the enforcement of my decree referring to a Deputy General for the Arbeitseinsatz of 21 March 1942 which Hitler promulgated and which made Sauckel the Plenipotentiary General for Labor that was the original decree according to his own judgment in the Greater German Reich, in the Protectorate, and in the Government General of Poland as well as in the occupied territories, measures which will safeguard under all circumstances the regulated deployment of labor for the German war economy. For this purpose he may appoint commissioners to the bureaus of the military and civilian administration. These are subordinated directly to Deputy General for the Arbeitseinsatz. In order to carry out their tasks. They are entitled to issue directives to the competent military and civilian authorities in charge of the Arbeitseinsatz and of wage policy.\" More detailed directives will be issued by the Deputy General for the Arbeintseinsatz.\nThat, of course, is the same as the General Plenipotentiary for Labor. The next document is 017-PS bearing Exhibit No. 18 which is a letter of October 5, 1942, from Sauckel, General Plenipotentiary for Labor to the Reichs Minister for the Easter Occupied Territories having to do with foreign labor. Paragraph 1:", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 79, "page_number": "65", "date": "03 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-03", "text": "\"The Fuehrer has worked out new and most urgent plans for the armament which require the quick mobilization of two more million foreign labor forces. The Fuehrer therefore has granted me; for the execution of my decree of 21 March 1942; new powers for my new duties; and has especially authorized me to take whatever measures I think are necessary in the Reich; the Protectorate; the General Government; as well as in the occupied territories; in order to assure at all costs an orderly mobilization of labor for the German armament Industry. The additional required labor forces will have to be drafted for the majority from the recently occupied eastern territories especially from the Reichskommisariat Ukraine. Therefore the Reichskomissariat Ukraine must furnish 225,000 labor forces by 31 December 1942 and 225;000 more by 1 May 1943\" I believe that on your Honors' paper it says 1942 but that is a misprint and should be 1943. The second to the last paragraph:\n\"Right now though; I ask that the procurement be taken up at once with every possible pressure and the commitment of all powers especially also of the experts of the labor offices. All the directives which had limited temporarily the procurement of Eastern laborers are annulled. The Reichs procurement for the next months must be given priority over all other measures. I do not ignore the difficulties which exist for the execution of this new requirement; but I am convinced that with the ruthless commitment of all resources; and with the full cooperation of all those interested; the execution of the new demands can be accomplished for the fixed date. I have already communicated the new demands to the Reichskommissar Ukraine via mail.\"\nMR. BERGOLD:Once again here the translation is not quite correct and if you don't mind I would like to discuss this document with you, sir.\nMR. DENNEY:We will certainly agree to that; your Honor. We will take all of those up before the Court today and see if we can thrash them out. The next document is 054-PS which is a report to the Reich Minister for the Occupied Eastern Territories concerning the treatment of Ukrainian specialists.", "speakers": [ "MR. BERGOLD", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 80, "page_number": "66", "date": "03 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-03", "text": "This will bear Exhibit No. 19.\nMR. BERGOLD:Of this document the first page is missing. The first page and there are several more pages missing in the end.", "speakers": [ "MR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 81, "page_number": "67", "date": "03 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-03", "text": "MR. DENNY:If your Honor please, Dr. Bergold has the pages which I intend to read from, so with your Honor's permission I'd like to read them. On the first page is a letter from a lieutenant in the German Army, speaking about the treatment of Ukrainian specialists and he has certain enclosures with it. And if Dr. Bergold has no objection, I am not going to read anything from that page, and I will see that he is furnished with it at the close of the day's hearing.\nDR. BERGOLD:No objection.\nMR. DENNY:This is a report to the Commander of the Army Sector B, Section VII. The subject is \"abuses in the treatment of Ukrainian skilled workers.\" The page concerned of Your Honor's Document Book is 86. The man writing it is the Commandant of the Collecting Center for Skilled Workers.\nThe bottom half of the page in question, page 86, page 2 of the Document Book:\n\"The starosts village elders are frequently corruptible, they continue to have the skilled workers, whom they drafted, dragged from their beds at night to be locked up in cellars until they are shipped. Since the male and female workers often are not given any time to pack their luggage, etc., many skilled workers arrive at the Collecting Center for Skilled Workers with equipment entirely insufficient (without shoes, only two dresses, no eating and drinking utensils, no blankets. etc.). In particularly extreme cases, new arrivals therefore have to be sent back again immediately to get the things most necessary for them. If people do not come along at once, the threatening and beating of skilled workers by the above-mentioned militia is a daily occurrence and is reported from most of the communities. In some cases, women were beaten until they could no longer march. One bad case, in particular, was reported by me to the commander of the civil police here (Colonel Samek) for severe punishment (Place Sozolinkow, district Dergatschi). The encreachments of the starosts and the militia are of a particularly grave nature because they usually justify themselves by claming that all that is done in the name of the German Armed Forces.", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD", "MR. DENNY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 82, "page_number": "68", "date": "03 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-03", "text": "In reality, the latter have conducted themselves almost throughout in a highly understanding manner toward the skilled workers and the Ukrainian population. The same, however, cannot be said of some of the administrative agencies. To illustrate this, be it mentioned that a woman once arrived being dressed with barely more than a skirt.\n\"Particularly distressing is the fact that on account of issued ordinances to prevent smuggling all food acquired by the skilled workers and the rest of the population by buying or bartering household utensils etc. is being taken away by the militia on the way. This is not rarely accompanied by beatings (without regard to objections or given circumstances).\"\nAnd turning over to Page 87, dropping down to the paragraph in the middle of the page;\n\"Very depressing for the miracle of the skilled workers and the population is the effect of those persons slipped back from Germany for having became disabled or not having been fit for labor commitment from the very beginning. Several times already, transports of skilled workers on their way to Germany have crossed returning transports of such disabled persons and have steed on the tracks alongside of each other for a long period of time. These returning transports are insufficiently cared for. Nothing but sick, injured or weak people, mostly 50 to 60 to a car, usually escorted by 3 to 4 men. There is neither sufficient care or food. The returnees made frequently unfavorable--but surely exaggerated --statements relative to their treatment in Germany and on the way. As a result of all this and of what the people could see with their own eyes, a psychosis of fear was evoked among the specialist workers, the whole transport to Germany.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 83, "page_number": "69", "date": "03 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-03", "text": "Several transport leaders--of the 62nd and the 63rd in particular--reported hereto in detail. In one case, the leader of the transport of skilled workers observing with his own eyes how a person who died of hanger was unloaded from a returning transport on the side track. (1st Lt. Hofmann of the 63rd transport, Station Darniza). Another time it was reported that three dead had to be deposited by the side of the tracks on the way and had to be left behind unburied by the escort. It is also regrettable that these disabled persons arrived here without any identification. According to the reports of the transport commanders one gets the impression that these persons unable to work are assembled, penned into the wagons and are sent off, provided only by a few men escorts, and without special care for food and medical or other attendance. The Labor Office at the place of arrival, as well as the transport commanders, confirm this impression.\"\nTurning now to Page 88, the last few lines of the first paragraph:\n\"The chief of transportation in Romodan stated to a transport commander that these transports are not important. Yet the Fuehrer himself ordered these transports and the problem of work power was declared to be the most important and urgent in order to increase the potential of armament.\"\nThen the last half of the next paragraph, beginning, with the words \"the attitude\" which is in the middle of the paragraph:\n\"The attitude and behavior of many female Red Cross workers toward the specialists is based often on uncomprehension of the Fuehrer's great action in regard to Eastern workers; and they treat especially the female workers in an outrageous manner. Food also has been refused at times with the reference that these were 'Russian swine'. Nobody pays attention to the fact that these are Ukrainians because there is a lack of information to that effect.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 84, "page_number": "", "date": "03 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-03", "text": "69a In reference to this, attention is called to the fact that it has happened on several occasions that people have broken out of the cars after several days of hungering, hurried into the nearby villages, sold their goods and acquired food.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 85, "page_number": "70", "date": "03 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-03", "text": "In such cases, of course, it is not to be expected that they all have come back. Such gross incidents of the transports of the first months have not, to our knowledge, been repeated in the summer. However, it has been reported that about 500 workers escaped along the route out of a transport which started from Kiev, accompanied by only a few policemen, supposedly five in all, (and without medical personnel) and which convoy was badly supplied and taken care of.\"\nThen the last sentence of the last paragraph on the page:\n\"On the basis of reported incidents, attention must be called to the fact that it is irresponsible to keep the workers locked in the cars for many hours so that they cannot even take care of the calls of nature. It is evident that the people of a transport must be given an opportunity, from time to time, in order to get drinking water, to wash, and in order to relieve themselves. Cars have been showed in which people had made holes so that they could take care of the calls of nature. \" Then at the top of the next page, which is Page 89 in Your Honors' book, on treatment of these workers en route:\n\"The following abuses were reported from the delousing stations:\n\"In the women's and girls' shower rooms, services were partly performed by men, or men would mingle around or even help with the soaping; and vice versa, there was female personnel in the men's shower rooms; men also for some time were taking photographs in the women's shower rooms. Since mainly Ukrainian peasants were transported in the last months, as far as the female portion of these are concerned, they are mostly of a high moral standard and used to strict decency, they must have considered such a treatment as a national degradation.\"", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 86, "page_number": "71", "date": "03 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-03", "text": "Then speaking of abuses inside Germany, the second paragraph under Roman numeral three:\n\"Here too, unfortunately voices are heard that tell of bad treatment in the collection as well as other camps. All the time do people tell about beatings and thrashings, but constantly also do they write about them. It seems that especially those men who have functions pertaining to order and security violate sometimes very much the limits of admissibility and identify the Ukrainians as Bolshovism, while they have actually for decades opposed themselves to Bolshevism as its natural enemies. The camp commanders also usually show no understanding for the Ukrainians. The treatment in the camps is described as being bad and very brutal.\"\nDr. Bergold, do you have a letter which then comes, which was dated 27 April 1942? You didn't?\nDR. BERGOLD:No.\nMR. DENNEY:All right. The letter is also part of the document and we will not read it at this time because Dr. Bergold doesn't have a copy.\nTHE PRESIDENT:This seems to be a good time to recess, Mr. Denney, until one thirty.\nDR. BERGOLD:One moment. May it please Your Honors, I have a request. Very early after I became a counsel, I asked that all these documents of the Central planning Board, be put at my disposal. I have to look through all these documents because I know that I will be able to find exonerating documents which will help with the defense. Unfortunately, these documents have not been put at my disposal yet, although I haven't inquired at the Information Center concerning these documents. At this present trial, only very little time is given to me as a counsel. I must see to it myself to get these documents as soon as possible so that I can use them. Without the help of the prosecution, however, I cannot receive these documents and I'd appreciate it very much that the Tribunal will rule that all the documents of the Central Planning Board, be put at my disposal as soon as possible so that I can prepare the defense in time.", "speakers": [ "THE PRESIDENT", "DR. BERGOLD", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 87, "page_number": "72", "date": "03 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-03", "text": "MR. DENNEY:If your Honor please, I made the statement this morning that all of the documents of the Central Planning Board had been made available. Now the statement may be wrongs it was not intentionally wrong. Dr. Bergold made a request and I approved that all the Central planning Board minutes which we had should be given to him, withholding nothing. I have asked Mr. Blakeslee and he states that all of them which we have, have been made available to him. Now, I can check this afternoon and find out. It's certainly been our intention to give him everything that we do have, so far as Central Planning Board is concerned, and this is the first that I have been advised that he doesn't have.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Dr. Bergold, have you received any of the documents of the Central planning Board?\nDR. BERGOLD:No,Your Honor. I have often requested them from the Information Center of the defense counsels and was always repeatedly told by Lt. Garrett that they were not to be found or that they do not exist. I repeatedly applied for them but couldn't get them--apparently, because of a mistake.\nMR. DENNY:If Your Honor please, it's the first time that I have heard about it. I assumed that when the request came through and I told them to give it to him, he would get them, but I am sorry it's happened and I will certainly do everything; I can to see that he does get them. As I say, they aren't in my custody; they are in the custody of the document room. But it's certainly my responsibility that he doesn't have them.\nTHE PRESIDENT:At least the facts can be ascertained.", "speakers": [ "THE PRESIDENT", "MR. DENNY", "DR. BERGOLD", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 88, "page_number": "73", "date": "03 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-03", "text": "You can find out what documents you do have and you will be sure of course that whatever they are Dr. Bergold will be given a chance to see them.\nMR. DENNEY:Most certainly, Your Honor, we will make copies available that he can have of his own.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Let's have that done and then we will cross the next bridge, if there is one. If there are further documents, why we will hear Dr. Bergold on that.\nMR. DENNEY:I am extremely sorry that it happened and as I said, this is the first time I hear about it.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The Court will recess until one thirty.", "speakers": [ "THE PRESIDENT", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 89, "page_number": "74", "date": "03 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-03", "text": "AFTERNOON SESSION The court reconvened at 1330 hours, 3 January 1947.\nMARSHAL:The Tribunal is again in session.\nMR. DENNEY:If your Honors please, during the noon hour I inquired into the situation concerning the Central planning Board minutes and the procedure which is followed after an application is made. I am informed that once the application is made through the General Secretary it then comes to us through Liaison OfficerRaugust that if we approve it, which I did, then we return it to the General Secretary's office and thereafter the matter is out of our hands.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Whose move is it then, after you return it to the General Secretary?\nMR. DENNEY:From that I don't know. Mr. Conway will be in later this afternoon. I asked him to check up and find out but went beyond that so he could tell me so we could advise your Honors. I want to make sure the Court will understand we have not tried to keep anything from Dr. Bergold.\nTHE PRESIDENT:I don't think anyone suggests that, not even Dr. Bergold. It is just a mechanical matter. You do have the papers he wants, some of them?\nMR. DENNEY:The do not have all the minutes of the Central Planning Board. All we have are some of them. Certainly everything we have is available to him or should be available to him.", "speakers": [ "THE PRESIDENT", "MARSHAL", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 90, "page_number": "75", "date": "03 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-03", "text": "At the end of Court this afternoon or tomorrow morning I will see that Dr. Bergold gets them.\nTHE PRESIDENT:This will work out satisfactorily, I am sure.\nMR. DENNEY:The last document, I believe, was Exhibit No. 19, which was Document 054-FS. At this time I would like to pass 294-PS. Turn to page 3 of the Index to DocumentL-61which will become Exhibit No. 20. This is a letter from Sauckel, dated November 26, 1942, concerning the employment of Jews and exchange of Jews in essential employment against Polish labor.\n\"In agreement with the Chief of the Security Police and. the SD\" -If your Honors please, as you know that is Sicherheits Dienst. \"Jews who are still in employment are, from now on, to be evacuated from the territory of the Reich and are to be replaced by Poles, who are being deported from the General Government.\nThe Chief of the Security Police advised us under the date of 26 October 1942 that it is anticipated that during the month of November the evacuation of Poles in the Lublin district will begin, in order to make room there for the settlement of persons of German race.\nThe Poles who are to be evacuated as a result of this measure will be put into concentration camps and put to work where they are criminal or asocial elements. The remaining Poles, where they are suitable for labor, will be transported. - without family - into the Reich, particularly to Berlin; there they will be put at the disposal of the labor allocation offices to work in armament factories instead of the Jews who are to be replaced.", "speakers": [ "MR. DENNEY", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 91, "page_number": "76", "date": "03 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-03", "text": "The Jews who will become available as a result of the employment of Polish labor will be deported on a shuttle system. This will apply first to Jews engaged in menial work since they can be exchanged most easily. The remaining so-called \"qualified\" Jewish laborers will be left to the industries until their Polish replacements have been made sufficiently familiar with the work processes by a period of apprenticeship to be determined for each case individually. Loss of production in individual industries will thus be reduced to the absolute minimum.\nI reserve the right to issue further instructions. Please inform the labor offices concerned accordingly.\nI transmit the foregoing copy for your information. Insofar as the removal of Jews (still) in employment concerns your area (Bezirk) too, I request that you take the necessary measures in cooperation with the competent offices of the Chief of the Security Police and of the SD.\"\n407-PS, the next document I believe is not in your Honors' Document Book. So, the next one is 1063-PS-D, page 100 of the Document Book, Id, first page. I believe this is the last time we will have to run over from one book to another but in the event we do I shall certainly see than an index is prepared for both volumes. It will make it easier, I realize, to work. 1063-PS-D becomes Exhibit No. 21. This is an order of Mueller signed 17 December 1942.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 92, "page_number": "77", "date": "03 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-03", "text": "\"For reasons of War necessity not be discussed further here, the Reichsfuchrer SS and Chief of the German Police on 14 December 1942, has ordered that until the end of January 1943; at least 35,000 prisoners qualified for work, are to be sent to the concentration camps.\n\"In order to reach this number, the following measures are required:\n\"1) As of now (so far until 1 Feb. 1943) all eastern workers or such foreign workers who have been fugitives, or who have broken contracts, and who do not belong to allied, friendly or neutral states are to be brought by the quickest means to the nearest concentration camps. For this, the most necessary formalities, as listed under No. 3) must be observed.\"\nSkipping down now to paragraph No. 2.\n\"All prisoners qualified for work, if it is essentially and humanly possible, will be committed at once to the nearest concentration camp, according to the following instructions, for instance also if penal procedures were to be established in the near future. Only such prisoners who in the interest of investigation procedures are to remain absolutely in solitary confinement can be left there.\nEvery single laborer counts \"The checking must be taken up at once.\nAll withholding of prisoners qualified for work is prohibited. My approval is required for exceptions.\"", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 93, "page_number": "78", "date": "03 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-03", "text": "Turning over to the next page, the 4th paragraph from the end.\n\"In regards to eastern workers, that is to say for such workers who have to wear the insignia \"EAST\", it is sufficient to give the total number of the arrested.\"\nThe next document is 018-PS which is a letter from Rosenberg to Sauckel, dated 21 December 1942. This if offered as Prosecution Exhibit No. 22. Starting in the middle of the second paragraph where he is speaking about acquisition of new laborers.\n\"This would always be the case, where the acquisition of new laborers is uncertain in a way which intimidates the population. The reports I have received show, that the increase of the guerilla bands in the occupied Eastern regions is largely due to the fact that the methods used for procuring laborers in these regions are felt to be forced measures of mass-deportation; so that the endangered persons; prefer to escape their fate by withdrawing into the woods or going over to the guerilla bands. Add to the occasionally unfavorable news regarding the treatment of the Eastern laborers in the Reich, that experience with the labor procurement authorities, then the result can only be a strengthening of the number and fighting: spirit of the hostile troops. This development is further aided by the return of tons of thousands of useless Eastern workers from the Reich (sick, cripples, etc.)\" To this point I should like to add that my repeated plea to establish sick camps in the Regional Labor Office District, that is in mass deportations of the Easterners who are incapable of work has so far not been answered.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 94, "page_number": "79", "date": "03 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-03", "text": "Then, going down toward the end of that same paragraph, it starts out, \"Even if I do not close my eyes to the necessity that the numbers demanded by the Reichsminister for weapons and ammunition as well as by the agricultural economy justify unusual and hard measures, I have to ask, due to the responsibility for the occupied Eastern territories which lies upon me, that in the accomplishment of ordered tasks such measures be excluded, tho toleration and prosecution of which will some day be held against me and my collaborators.\"\nDr. Bergold, do you have two additional pages on that exhibit, one headed, \"Extracts From the Secret Report on Morale by the Foreign Hail Censorship Post, Berlin\"?\nDR.BERGOLD (Counsel for Defendant Hilch): Yes.\nMR. DENNY:And another one, parts from two letters, right after that? It may run right along with it. There should be three paragraphs.\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes.\nMR. DENNY:Turning over, then, to page 104, which is page 3 of that document, \"Extracts from the Secret Report on Morale by the Foreign Hail Censorship Post, Berlin\":\n\"Horrifying picturizations of compulsory measures by the administrative authorities for the seizure of Eastern laborers form a major part of the news from home to their relatives working in Germany. The disinclination to answer the call to work in the Reich has evidently grown steadily, not only due to the reports of Eastern workers which fled home and their workshops or have been dismissed.", "speakers": [ "DR.", "DR. BERGOLD", "MR. DENNY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 95, "page_number": "80", "date": "03 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-03", "text": "In order to secure the required number for the labor transport, men and women, including youngsters from 15 years on up, are allegedly picked up on the street, from the market places and village festivals and carried off. The inhabitants therefore hide themselves in fear and avoid any appearance in public. After public beating during the month of October, so available letters state, came, the burning down of homesteads and of whole villages as retribution for failure to comply with the demand for the appropriation of labor forces directed to the communities. The execution of the latter measures is being reported from various villages.\"\nTurning ever to the next page, skipping the next paragraph, and then the last long paragraph which starts, \"On October 1 a new conscription of labor forces took place.\nFrom what has happened, I will describe the most important to you. You can not imagine the bestiality. You probably remember what we were told about the Soviets during the rule of the boles. At that time we did not believe it, and now it seems just as incredible. The order came to supply 25 workers, but no one reported. All had fled. Then the Herman militia came and began to ignite the houses of those who had fled. The fire became very violent, since it had not rained for two months. In addition the rain stacks were in the farm yards. You can imagine what took place. The people who had hurried to the scene were forbidden to extinguish the flames, beaten and arrested, so that seven homesteads burned down. The policemen meanwhile ignited other houses.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 96, "page_number": "", "date": "03 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-03", "text": "The people fall on their knees and kiss their hands, but the policemen beat them with rubber trunchions and threaten to burn down the whole village. I don't know how this would have ended if I, Sapunkany had not intervened. He promised that there would be laborers by morning. During the fire the militia went through the adjoining villages, seized the laborers, and detained and brought them under arrest. Wherever they did not find any laborers, they detained the parents, until the children appeared. That is how they raged through the night in Bielosirka. The workers which had not yet appeared till then were to be shot. All schools were closed and the married teachers were sent to work here. while the unmarried ones go to work in Germany. They are now catching humans like the dog-catchers used to catch dogs. They are already hunting for one week and have not yet enough. The imprisoned workers are locked in at the schoolhouse. They can not even go out to perform their natural functions, but have to do it like pigs in the same room. People from many villages went on a certain day to a pilgrimage to the monastery Potschaew. They were all arrested, locked in, and will be sent to work. Among them there are aged, lame, and blind people.\"\nThe next document is 1726-PS, which becomes Prosecution Exhibit 23. We pass 556PS atthis time, Your Honor. Do Your Honors have 1726 in your book.\nTHE PRESIDENT:That is the statement of the Netherlands Government?\nMR. DENNY:Yes, sir.\n-81.", "speakers": [ "MR. DENNY", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 97, "page_number": "32", "date": "03 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-03", "text": "THE PRESIDENT:Yes.\nMR. DENNY:I dislike to bother you about it, but are there several pages or just one?\nTHE PRESIDENT:There is just one page.\nMR. DENNY:We will have to pass that at this time, because I notice that this document contains six pages, whereas the one they have bound has only one. However, in that we have tentatively assigned number 23 to that, we will just withdraw the offer at this time, the number having been written on the exhibit, and we will proceed by marking the next one 24, if that is agreeable.\nThe next document is 3003-PS, which will become Prosecution Exhibit 24. This is a partial excerpt from a report on a lecture by Lieutenant Haupt, giving the situation in the Netherlands on the war economy.\n\"Cooperation between civilian and military agencies so far has been thoroughly satisfactory. Page 109 in the English book. The commander of the Fwi 0 who had been active for many years in Holland, was able to eliminate through personal contact in any difficulties that might have arisen. There had been some difficulties with the Arbeitseinsatz, i.c., during the man catching action (Kenchenfang Aktion) which became very noticeable because it was unorganized and unprepared. People were arrested in the streets and taken out of their homes. It had been impossible to carry out a unified release procedure in advance, because for security reasons, the time for the action had not been previously announced. Certificates of release, COUT NO.", "speakers": [ "MR. DENNY", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 98, "page_number": "83", "date": "03 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-03", "text": "2 furthermore, were to some extent not recognized by the officials who carried out the action.\nNot only workers who had become available through the stoppage of industry, but also those who were employed in our installations producing things for our immediate need. They wore apprehended or did not dare to go into the streets. In any case it proved to be a great less to us.\nDocument 1526-PS, which is offered as Prosecution Exhibit Number 25, being a letter in February 1943, written by Professor Kubijowytach to the Governor General, Frank. The first page and the first section deal largely with the restoring of private property. However, the third page, which is page 111 in your Honor's document book, has under Roman Numeral II measures for finding Labor.\n\"The general nervousness is still more enhanced by the wrong methods for foreign labor which have been used more and more frequently in recent months to find labor.\n\"The wild and ruthless man-hunt exercised everywhere in towns and country, in streets, squares, stations, even in churches, at night in houses, has badly shaken the feeling of security of the inhabitants. Everybody is exposed to the danger of being seized anywhere and at any time by members of the police, suddenly and unexpectedly, and being brought into an assembly camp. None of his relatives knows what has happened to him; or months later, one of the others gives news of his fate by a postcard.\n\"I beg to mention some instances with their respective proofs \"a.) During such an action a pupil in Sokol lost his life and another one was wounded.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 99, "page_number": "84", "date": "03 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-03", "text": "\"b) Nineteen Ukrainian workers from Galicia, all provided with identity cards, were assigned in Cracow to a transport of 'Russian prisoners-of-war' and delivered into a punishment camp in Graz.\n\"c) Ninety-five Ukrainians from Galicia, recruited for work in Germany by the labor offices in the middle of January, were sent to Pskow in Russia, via Eastern Prussia, where most of them died as a result of very hard conditions.\n\"d) Seizure of workers under pretext of military recruitment; kidnapping schoolboys during school time.\"\nTHE PRESIDENT:Mr. Denny, this letter was written from Cracow?\nMR. DENNY:Yes.\nTHE PRESIDENT:It purports to describe conditions in Cracow, Poland?", "speakers": [ "MR. DENNY", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 100, "page_number": "85", "date": "03 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-03", "text": "MR. DENNY:In Poland, generally; yes, sir. Apparently, again, the pages have been torn out of this book. This exhibit should have -- oh, I see how they've done it.\nPRESIDENT:Runs through page 123, does it not?\nMR. DENNY:Yes, sir. There's a blank page bound in here. Turning now to page 115, \"The Events at Sokal.\" That's enclosure number two of the letter.\n\"On 24 October 1942 between 13 and 14 hours, when the school-boys went home from school, they were stopped by detachments of military police on the street, and together with other people were formed in one unit. There was a panic as nobody knew what was going to heppen to these people. People began to flee from the streets. A school boy, Jaroslau MEDA, who was just passing with his father, the secretary of the collective community of Parchacz also started to run. The father tried to calm him and called him back as there was no danger. A military policeman, however, saw him fleeing and shot at him, wounding him fatally, so that he died in the local hospital half an hour later.\n\"At the same time two military policemen went into the Ukrainian hostel for schoolboys and took away some boys. The others were at lunch in the dining room and therefore remained unnoticed. In front of the schoolboys' hostel, a school boy Wassyl ZRAWTSCHUK was caught by a military policeman and wounded so seriously in the upper thigh by a bayonet that he had to be taken to a hospital.\n\"Osyyp KARAWAN student of theology was severely beaten until he fainted.\"\n\"Michael DULIBA, Public school teacher, was beaten publicly.\"\n\"It is to be stressed that nobody knew that this action of collecting people was to procure workers to load carrots at the station. When the headmaster of the German school informed the manager of the local labor office by phone and asked for his help, the latter replied he had no time to spare for this matter at the moment. Thereafter, the headmasters of the Ukrainian schools informed the director of the local Labor Office that they would put their boys at the disposal of the authorities in every case where there was -85a work to be done in the Town, which was unforeseen and could not be delayed, after having received fair warning, provided no other labor was available.\"", "speakers": [ "PRESIDENT", "MR. DENNY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 102, "page_number": "86", "date": "03 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-03", "text": "Turning then to page 117, which is enclosure number 5, first paragraph:\n\"In November of last year a mustering of all males in the age groups 1910 to 1920 was ordered in the area of Zaleschozyki. After the men had appeared for inspection, all those who were chosen were locked up at once, loaded into trains and sent to the Reich. Such recruiting of laborers for the Reich also took place in other areas of this district. Following some interventions, the action was then stopped.\"\nTurning now to page 121, which is part of Appendix 12, enclosure 12, it starts:\n\"On 18 January 1943, 14 persons were shot who were unfit for work together with 80 Jews and were buried together in a ditch. Among these 14 were old men and invalids.\"\nThe next document is 1130-PS, which we offer as Prosecution Exhibit No. 26, the outer cover being a letter of enclosure of a speech by one Koch, made in Kiev, concerning the treatment of the civilian population in the Ukraine. Page 2 of the document which is page 125 of Document Book No, 2, the second paragraph under Roman numeral heading No. I:\n\"I will draw the very last out of this country. I did not cone to spread bliss. I have come to help the Fuehrer. The population must work, work, and work again....for some people are getting excited, that the population may not get enough to eat. The population cannot demand that. One has only to remember what our heroes were deprived of in Stalingrad...We definitely did not come here to give our Manna; we have come here to create the basis for Victory.\"\n\"We are a master race, which must remember that the lowliest German worker is racially and biologically a thousand times more valuable than the population here.\"\n407, Roman numeral 2 - PS, which is the next one, I believe -- well, although they have included it, we will pass that at this time.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 103, "page_number": "87", "date": "03 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-03", "text": "019-PS' which we offer as Prosecution Exhibit No.27, the letter of March 17, 1943, from Sauckel to Rosenberg, concerning the draft of workers from the east, the third paragraph of the letter:\n\"Especially the labor supply for the German agriculture, and likewise for the most urgent armament production programs ordered by the FUEHRER make the fastest importation of approximately 1 million women and men from the Eastern Territories within the next 4 months a must. Starting 15 March the daily shipment must have reached 3000 female and male workers respectively, while beginning of April this number has to be stepped up to 10,000. This is a requisite of the most urgent programs, and the spring tillage, and other agricultural tasks are not to suffer for the detriment of the nutrition and of the armed forces.\n\"I have foreseen the allotment of the draft quotas for the individual territories in agreement with your experts for the labor supply as follows:\nDaily quota starting 13 March 1943:\nfrom General Commissariat WHITE LUTHENIA 500 people Economic Inspection CENTER 500 people Reich's Commissariat UKRAINE 3 000 people Economic Inspection SOUTH 1 000 people TOTAL 5 000 people \"Starting 1 April 1943 the daily quota is to be doubled corresponding to the doubling of the entire quota.\n\"I hope to visit personally the Eastern Territories towards the end of the month? and ask you once more for your kind support.\"\n\"HEIL HITLER!\"\nSigned: SAUCKEL The next document is 3012-PS which we offer as Prosecution's Exhibit No. 28.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 104, "page_number": "88", "date": "03 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-03", "text": "This is an order signed by - just a moment, if the Court please, - There is an error in the index, your Honors, it says it is signed by Christians. It should be signed by Stapf. The paragraph in the middle of the page which starts just after the daily quota of workers which was distributed:\n\"In consideration of the extraordinary losses of workers, which occurred in German war industry because of the developments of the past months, it is now necessary, that the recruiting of workers be taken up again everywhere with all emphasis. The tendency, momentarily noticeable in that territory, to limit and/or entirely stop the Reich recruiting program is absolutely not bearable in view of this state of affairs. Gauleiter Sauckel, who is informed about these events, has because of this, turned immediately to General Feldmarschall Keitel on 10 March 1943 in a teletype, and has emphasized on this occasion, that, as in all other occupied territories, there, where all other methods fail, by order of the Fuehrer a certain pressure must be used.\"\nThe last sentence but one in the next paragraph:\n\"As far as the quotas cannot be filled by voluntary enlistments, they are to be filled by conscription. For the realization of the service obligation, in the individual case, compulsion may be used if necessary.\"\nThen the last paragraph:\n\"I request to direct at once with the consent of the competent headquarters, that disturbance of the Reich recruiting program is stopped, and that the latter is assisted in every respect by the military agencies.\" Signed by Stapf, Lieutenant General (General der Infanterie).\n2220-PS which is a report of Lammers to Himmler concerns the situation in Poland, dated April 17, 1943, is offered as Prosecution's Exhibit No. 29.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 105, "page_number": "89", "date": "03 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-03", "text": "The particular part here occurs on the last page in paragraph 2 entitled \"Utilization of Manpower.\" The last two sentences occurs on page 136 of your Honors' document book. It is a comment by hammers on the utilization of manpower. At the end of the paragraph next to the last paragraph:\n\"As things were, the utilization of manpower had to be enforced by means of more or less forceful methods, such as the instances when certain groups appointed by the Labor Offices, caught Church and Movie-goers here and there and transported them into the Reich. That such methods, not only undermine the people's willingness to work and the people's confidence to such a degree that it cannot be checked even with terror, is just as clear as the consequences brought about by a strengthening of the political resistance movement.\"\nThe next document is 407-V-PS which is a report from Sauckel to Hitler dated April 14, 1943. I should like to call the court's attention in passing that on the last page, which is page 139, it is noted that Reichsmarshal Goering received a copy of this. The particular things to be noted start with -- well, perhaps it would be well if I read the first paragraph as well -\nTHE PRESIDENT:Is this Exhibit 30?\nMR. DENNEY:Yes, Sir, the document has this number: 407-V-PS, which the prosecution offers as Exhibit 30.\n\"As you have been told by Lt. General Gruppenfuehrer Bormann already, I am going to the Eastern territories on April 15th in order to secure in the coming months one million workers from the East. The result of my last trip to France is that after exact fulfillment of the last program another 450,000 workers from the Western territories will come into the Reich, by the beginning of summer. With the probable use of about 150,000 workers from Poland and from the other territories, it will then be possible, to put five to six hundred thousand workers at the disposal of the German agriculture again and 1,000,000 workers at the disposal of the armament and other war industries; this will be done by summer.", "speakers": [ "MR. DENNEY", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 106, "page_number": "90", "date": "03 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-03", "text": "I ask for your approval to have the new French workers come into the Reich under conditions similar to those of the last group. I have negotiated with the High Command of the army. Since the big majority of the Belgian civilian workers and of the prisoners of war is doing a very satisfactory job; I ask you to approve a statute for about 20,000 Belgian prisoners of war similar to the one you have granted to the French. That great concession of your has made a big impression upon Laval and the French ministers. Laval asked me again and again to give you, my Fuehrer, his sincerest thanks for that. After having been active as Plenipotentiary for the Arbeitseinsatz for one year, I have the honor to report to you that -- the figure says on the copy which your Honors have five million and it should be three million - \"3,638,056 new foreign workers have been added to the German war economy between April 1st of the last year and March 31st of this year. (Generally speaking these workers have done a satisfactory job. Their feeding and housing is settled and their treatment regulated in an undisputable way. In that respect, too, our national socialist Reich presents a shining example compared with the methods of the capitalist and Bolshevik world. Of course, occasional mistakes and blunders cannot be avoided. I shall always try with the greatest energy to keep them at a minimum.\") Then dropping down at the end he says:\n\"Besides the foreign civilian workers, another 1,622,829 prisoners of war are employed in the German economy.\"\nAnd in paragraph 2 he has a breakdown of the way that the 3,638,056 workers are employed; armament, 1,588,801; and he gives the figures for mining, construction, transportation, agriculture and other branches of the economy.\nNow, for the moment we would like to pass - No, I beg your pardon. I am sorry. The next Exhibit is a series of pictures which we offer as one exhibit, being 3027-PS and 3028-PS, and we would ask that they be assigned as Exhibit No. 31. The captions which appear on the document itself, 3027-3028, are self-explanatory. They show Russian prisoners of war engaged in various occupations that have to do with the furthering of the German war effort such as loading ammunition trains, carrying ammunition, stacking ammunition, transferring ammunition from freight cars to trucks.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 107, "page_number": "", "date": "03 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-03", "text": "2280-PS, a letter of May 3, 1943, from the Reich Kommissar in the -90a East concerning the recruitment of manpower in the Baltic countries for Reichs territory is offered as Prosecution's Exhibit No. 32.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 108, "page_number": "91", "date": "03 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-03", "text": "It provides in part, starting at the beginning:\n\"Recruiting of Manpower from the Eastern territories for the Reich territories here: New quotas based upon the agreement with GPA Gauleiter Sauckel on 21 April 1943. Following the basic statements of the Plenipotentiary General for manpower, Gauleiter Sauckel, on the occasion of his visit to Riga on 21 April 1943, it was decided in view of the critical situation and in disregard of all adverse considerations, that a total of 183,000 workers have to be supplied from the Eastern territories for the Reich territory. This task must absolutely be accomplished within the next four months and at the latest must be completed by the end of August. The following sub-quotas have been established: White Ruthenia: 30,000 adolescent workers and 100,000 workers including families. Of the families only members capable of productive work will be counted. All persons 10 years old and up are considered as productive manpower. Lithuania: 15,000 female workers, 15,000 male workers, 10,000 productive workers from about 2 to 3000 families, Latvia: 10,000 female workers, no male workers. Estonia: 3,000 female workers, no male workers.\"\nThen dropping down another paragraph:\n\"All permissible means shall be used to obtain manpower from White Ruthcnia. Do not hesitate to apply extraordinary measures.\"\n407, IX Roman numberal Nine, PS, is a letter of June 3, 1943 from Sauckel to Hitler concerning the foreign labor situation. At the beginning of the letter:\n\"I beg to be permitted to report to you on the situation of the Arboitseinsatz for the first 5 months of 1943. For the first time the following number of new foreign laborers and prisoners of war were employed in the German war industry.\"\nThen he gives the figures for the first five months with a total of 846,511. This is Prosecution's Exhibit No. 33. He goes on to state that:\n\"I may remark that this number of 850,000 was reached only after greatest difficulties were overcome which had not existed during the pre vious year; all those who have worked for the Arbeitsoinsatz, particularly in the occupied territories, did so with the greatest fanaticism and devotion.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 109, "page_number": "92", "date": "03 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-03", "text": "Unfortunately quite a number of our officials and employees were victims of murders and attacks by partisans. Besides those labor forces recruited for work within the Reich, several hundred thousand laborers were recruited in the occupied territories through the agencies for the Arbeitseinsatz as well as through the OT which refers to the Organization Todt and the factories working in the East and the West for the German war industry. Furthermore the Wehrmacht received a large number of laborers as well as labor volunteers.\"", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 110, "page_number": "93", "date": "03 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-03", "text": "The next document, 3000 PS, which we offer as Prosecution Exhibit 34, which is a report from Chief of Main Office III with the High Command in Minsk to Ministerialdirektor Riecke, which has particularly to do with the conditions in White Ruthenia.\nOn page 3, which is -- sorry Your Honor, this document book doesn't have this. We will have to withdraw the offer. I beg your pardon, it is in here in part, the only part which we are offering at this time. Page 4, which is on Page 147 of your Honors' document book, \"Everything you do for Germany is right, everything else is wrong.\"\n\"The recruitment of labor for the Reich, however necessary, had disastrous effects. The recruitment measures in the last months and weeks were absolutely manhunts, which have an irreparable political and economic effect. From White Ruthenia, approx. 50,000 people have been obtained for the Reich so far. Another 130,000 are to be obtained. Considering the 2.4 million total population these figures are impossible.\" ...\nThe next quotation, which is on Page 5?\n\"Due to the sweeping drives (Grossaktionen) of the SS and police in November 1942, about 115,000 hectar farmland is not used, as the population is not there and the villages have been razed...\"\nThe next document is 263-PS, which is a memo of an oral report of one Leyser to Rosenberg on the situation in his district. This will be Prosecution's exhibit 35.\nPage 149 of your Honor's document book, sixth paragraph in the document book, about half through the paragraph which starts \"In the foreground stands, at the moment the mobilization of the ****\" \"With this our propaganda became for the greater part illusory.\nBut as the Chief Plenipotentiary for the mobilization of labor explained to us the gravity of the situation, we had no other device. I consequently have authorized the commissioners of the areas to apply the severest measures in order to achieve the imposed quota. The deterioration of morale in conjunction with this does not necessitate any further proof. It is nevertheless essential, to win the war on this front too! The problem of labor mobilization cannot handled with gloves.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 111, "page_number": "94", "date": "03 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-03", "text": "\"Up-to-date, almost 170,000 male and female workers have been sent to the Reich for the general district Shitomir. It can be taken for granted that, during the month of June, this number is going to rise to approximately 200,000.\nI neglected to road a short paragraph at the bottom of the page 148 of your Honors' document book, the first page, - and for the interpreters it is the sixth paragraph in the letter. It starts out, \"The symptoms created by the recruiting of workers.\"\n\"The symptoms created by the recruiting of workers are, no doubt, well known to the Reichs Minister through reports and his own observations. Therefore, I shall not report them. It is certain that a recruitment of labor, in the sense of the word, can hardly be spoken of. In most cases, it is nowadays a matter of actual conscription by force. The population has been stirred up to a large extent and views the transports to the Reich as a measure which does in no way differ from the former exile to Siberia,...\"\nThe next document is 3010-PS. Which will be offered as Prosecution Exhibit No. 36. This has to do with the recruitment of workers for the Reich, is a partial extract of a report from the inspector, on an order from the Economy Inspection South. The first two paragraphs of which provide on pages, - or Page 151 of your Honors' document book.\n\"The Plenipotentiary General for Labor Employment ordered the recruitment and employment of all born during two years for the whole, newly occupied Eastern territory in Decree AZ. VI, \" and so forth, \"copy of which is inclosed. The Reich Minister for Armament and Munition approved this order.\n\"According to this order by the Plenipotentiary General for Labor Employment you have to recruit and to transport to the Reich immediately all labor force in your territory born during 1926 and 1927. The decree relative labor duty and labor employment in the theater of operations of the newly occupied Eastern territory of the 6th February 43 and the executive orders therefore are the authority for the execution of this measure.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 112, "page_number": "", "date": "03 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-03", "text": "Enlistment must be 94a completed by 30 Sept.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 113, "page_number": "95", "date": "03 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-03", "text": "1943 at the latest.\"\nThe date of the memo calling for these people born in 1926 and 1927 is 17 August 1943.\nThe next document is 290-PS, which we offer as Prosecution Exhibit No. 37. It is a report on the evacuation of Cossar, dated 12 November 1943. At the very bottom of Page 193, which has to do with alleged encroachment of a district commissioner, at the end of the second paragraph in the second part, \"But even if Mueller had been present--\"\nYou do not have it, Dr. Bergold?\nDR. BERGOLD.:I cannot check with your number 190.\nMR. DENNY:Your Honor, please, Dr. Bergold has one number 190, and we have marked this Exhibit No. 37. We will withdraw it and not offer it at this time, and will arrange to see he has the proper copy of it. We might as well leave the Number 37 on it, and we will offer the next document, which is 1702-PS as No. 38. 1702-PS., do you have that, Dr. Bergold, - 1702?\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes.\nMR. DENNY:The secret report covering the period 8 November to 28 December 1983, and then -- on Page 156 of your Honors' book, the third large paragraph, starting \"In the midst of the conditions.\"\nDocument 1702-PS, and it is the third paragraph in the English Document Book. The interpreters copy apparently doesn't have it, so we will pass the offer of this. Do you have it?\n(affirmative response not audible).\nI withdraw it.\n\"In the midst of the conditions, almost restored to Normal, I received a call on the eve of the 29th of December from the Army according to which the Soviets with superior forces of tanks and motorized troops, had exerted a strong renewed pressure on the line of KOTSCHEROWO BRUSIL0W - FASTOW and along the street KIEV - SHIT0MIR with the main advance in a South West direction. Shortly afterwards, the long distance call, as per attached inclosure number 2, was put through according to which the ble-bodied male population in the ages between 15 and 65 as well as the cattle had to be led back in the direction East of the line BILILOVKA - BERKITSCHEW - SHITOMIR.", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD", "MR. DENNY", "DR. BERGOLD." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 114, "page_number": "96", "date": "03 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-03", "text": "The transporting of the able-bodied population was charged to the military authorities by the chief quartermaster of the army, while beginning with the morning of 26 December. I discussed and ordered in detail, during an immediate conference for the whole district the shipment of all the cattle. This action started successfully on that day according to plan, while the discussions over the seizure of the male population were not yet concluded in the afternoon hours of the 26th of December and no positive measures of any kind were taken.\"", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 115, "page_number": "97", "date": "17 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-17", "text": "And then on the fourth page, enclosure three, which appears as Page 158 of your Honors' document book, an order from the High Command of the 4th Armored Army, dated 26 December 1943 referring to Evacuation Measures:\n\"The city of Berditschew is to be evacuated of Reich Germans, German agencies of the civil government, government of the country, able-bodied population. The cattle is to be taken away. Execution of evacuation measures is charged to the civil government.\"\nFor the moment we will pass 1913-PS and go to 204-PS which is a memorandum of February 18, 1944, and which we offer as Prosecution's Exhibit No. 39. The first page which appears at Page 163 of your Honors' document book:\n\"Numerous actions for the purposes of recruiting native workers for the Reich have taken place since the entry of German armed forces into the General district Lithuania in June 1941. A few weeks after the entry of the German troops, thousands of Lithuanian male and female farmworkers were recruited at the instigation of the military administration, and namely for the duration of 6 months for employment on the large estates in the GAU East Prussia. Unfortunately, the promises made then were not kept. One did not release those farmworkers neither after 6 months nor after 12 months one has for months left their relatives who were left behind without any support at all; one has refused them for a long time to make a short vacation journey to Lithuania; one even has the idea today to transfer the agricultural workers, recruited in the year 1941 for the duration of 6 months, into the armament industry of the Reich.\n\"The second larger action was started by the Armed Forces in the Spring of 1942 and comprised the getting ready of approximately 7,000 male, so-called transport helpers. The action which was rushed into and was started without sufficient propaganda preparations was obstructed a great deal by careless measures of the armed Forces which had become nervous. Thus, for instance, the Lithuanians, ordered to the official agencies \"only for registration\" were held there, taken away under military guard to the local barracks, and then they had neither the opportunity to bid their families good-bye nor to put their most important personal affairs in order.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 116, "page_number": "98", "date": "03 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-03", "text": "No wonder that the enemy propaganda grasped this \"blemish\" with pleasure and was able to make a comparison with deportation methods used barely a year ago by the Soviets.\n\"Until the most recent times numerous additional actions have been staged for the purpose of obtaining volunteers for the Armed Forces, police and Reich Labor Service, or for obtaining workers for the armament industry of the Reich.\"\nThen skipping the next paragraph and the first sentence of the following paragraph which appears at the bottom of Page 169 of your Honors' document book:\n\"Finally it must be established that the native administration in its present from and since its existence has completely failed in the question of the procurement of workers for the Reich.\nThen going over to the paragraph marked 3 in the letter which is on Page 167 in the American or the English version -- do the interpreters have it?\n\"The demand of Gauleiter Sauckel read to recruit in a short time 30,000 native workers for the Reich and to ship them to Germany. During a conference between the Commissioner General and the first General Council on 7 September 1943, the latter offered to assume the entire responsibility for the execution of this action for the native administration and to recruit and ship the demanded number of 30,000 workers by 7 November 1943.\"\nThen turning over to page 168, paragraph number 4:\n\"In the meantime Gauleiter Sauckel made a new demand that the General District Lithuania must now get 100,000 native workers instead of the 30,000 demanded up until now ready for the Reich.\"\nThen dropping down in that same paragraph about twenty lines, still on Page 168 of your Honors' book, the last eight lines on that page:\n\"In the district of the City of Kauen, according to the findings of my labor office, on 1 February 1944, 7,000 labor jobs in industry in the agencies of the armed forces, police, etc.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 117, "page_number": "99", "date": "03 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-03", "text": ", were vacant so that practically 15,400 workers would have to be supplied in the city of Kauen alone in order to comply fully with the demands of the Reich and the demands of native economy, and that with a total population figure of only a little more than 130,000 native persons.\"\nAnd then at the very end just before the signature, the last two lines -no. No. That's all there is in that document.\nThe next document isR 103which the Prosecution offers as Exhibit No. 40. It appears as page 171 in your Honors' document book 1.B. This is a report from the Polish Main Committee in Cracow again to the Government General, Poland, this time made 17 May 1944, and has to deal with the situation of the Polish workers in Germany. Turning to Page 172 in your Honors' document book, which is on Page 3 of the German original, I believe it is the last paragraph of that page starting, \"The food and bread:\n\"The food and bread fixed for Polish children in the camps are by no means sufficient for building up the substance for growing and developing their organism. In some cases children up to the age of ten and more are allotted 200 grams of bread weekly, 200 grams of butter and margerine, 250 grams of sugar monthly and nothing else.\" This is in Zeititz near hurzen in Saxony.\nTurning then to Page 172 which is on Page 5 of the German original\nTHE PRESIDENT:The last you read was on Page 172.\nMR. DENNY:I am sorry, sir. I meant 173. Excuse me. Page 5 of the German original, at the top, \"Care of Children,\" the last half of the paragraph:\n\"An indication of the awful conditions this may lead to is given by the fact that in the camps for Eastern workers, camp for Eastern workers. \"Waldlust\", Post Office Lauf, Pegnitz, there are cases of eight year olds delicate and undernourished children put to forced labor and perishing from such treatment.", "speakers": [ "MR. DENNY", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 118, "page_number": "100", "date": "03 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-03", "text": "Sanitary Treatment \"The fact that those bad conditions dangerously affect the state of health and the vitality of the workers is proved by many cases of tuberculosis found in very young people returning from the Reich to the General Government as unfit for work.\nTheir state of health is usually so bad that recovery is out of the question.\n\"The reason if that a state of exhaustion resulting from overwork and a starvation diet is not recognized as an ailment until the illness betrays itself by high fever and fainting spells.\" Then turning to Page 174 of the English book which is on Page 7 of the German book, referring to religious care:\n\"The elimination of religious services, religious practice and religious care from the life of the Polish workers, the prohibition of church attendance at a time when there is a religious service for other people and other measures show a certain contempt for the influence of religion on the feelings and opinions of the workers.\"\nTHE PRESIDENT:We will take a recess at this time.\n(A recess was taken.)", "speakers": [ "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 119, "page_number": "101", "date": "03 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-03", "text": "THE MARSHAL:All persons in the Court will rise. The Tribunal is again in session.\nMR. DENNY:If your Honors please, the next documentNO-254-PS, which appears on page 175 of the second volume of document book 1, will be Exhibit No. 41. This is a letter from one Raab who was part of the Ministry for the Occupied Eastern Territories, dated 29 June 1945. On Page 1, the third paragraph under the entry \"Diary No. 81/44 g\" -- the second paragraph, rather, beginning \"I was committed...\" \"I was committed as district commissioner in the information service in the territory of L'assikow from May 5th 1942 up to December 28th 1944. Besides many work districts, I was made fully responsible by district commissioner Dohrer to completely fill the district quota of workers to be delivered to Germany. Although the task wasn't agreeable to me, I carried it out conscientiously, with skill, and where it was necessary with sternness. Up until the penetration of the Soviet Armies, this territory delivered more than 31,000 workers to Germany.\"\nAnd on page 177 of the document book which starts after the number three: \"Strict measures, like the burning down of houses, were only used in a few cases. By this means, it was accomplished - at least in 1942 that the recruiting of workers didn't tie down to many police forces, who because of other functions, couldn't be used for that purpose all the time.\"\nAnd then, five: \"The delivery of 31,000 workers to the Reich is definitely important to the war effort. Stern measures are definitely justified in order to prevent a failure of this action.\"", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "MR. DENNY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 120, "page_number": "102", "date": "03 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-03", "text": "We pass the next three documents which are 031-PS, 3721-PS and 3719-PS and come to the affidavit of October 15, 1945 of one Dr. Wilhelm Jager Document D2n6 which we offer as Prosecution Exhibit No.42. It will be noted that Dr. Jager was the Senior Camp doctor in the Krupp workers camp having attained that position on October 1, 1942. On the first page, which is page 221 of your Honors' document book and which is page 1 of the German original at the second paragraph from the bottom of the page:\n\"All of these camps were surrounded by barbed wire and were closely guarded. Conditions in all of these camps were extremely bad. The camps were greatly over crowded. In some camps there were twice as many people in barrack as health conditions permitted. At Kramerplatz, the inhabitants slept in treble tiered bunks, and in the other camps they slept in double tiered bunks. The health authorities prescribed a minimum space between---\" Still on page 221 but page 2 of the German original.\"--beds of 50 cm. but the bunks in these camps were separated by a maximum of 20 to 30 cm. The diet prescribed for the Eastern workers was altogether insufficient. They were given 1,000 calories a day less than the minimum prescribed for any German. Moreover, while German workers engaged in the heaviest work received 5,000 calories a day, the Eastern workers in comparable jobs received only 2,000 calories. The Eastern workers were given only 2 meals a day and their bread ration. One of these two meals consisted of a thin, watery soup. I had no assurance that the Eastern workers, in fact, received the minimum which was prescribed. Subsequently, in 1943, when I undertook to inspect the food prepared by the cooks, I discovered a number of instances in which food was withheld from the workers. The plan for food distribution called for a small quantity of meat per week. Only inferior meats, rejected by the veterinary such as horse meat or tuberculin infested was permitted for this purpose. This meat was usually cooked into a soup.. The clothing of the Eastern workers was likewise completely inadequate. They worked and slept in the same clothing in which they had arrived from the East.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 121, "page_number": "103", "date": "03 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-03", "text": "Virtually all of them had no overcoats and were compelled, therefore, to use their blankets as coats in cold and rainy weather. In view of the shortage of shoes many workers were forced to go to work in their bare feet, even in the winter. Wooden shoes were given to some of the workers, but their quality was such as to give the workers sore feet. Many workers preferred to go to work in their bare feet rather than endure the suffering caused by the wooden shoes. Apart from the wooden shoes, no clothing of any kind was issued to some of them. To my knowledge, this represented the sole issue of clothing to the workers from the time of their arrival until the American forces entered Essen. Satinary conditions were exceedingly bad. At Kramerplatz, where approximately 1,200 Eastern workers were crowded into the rooms of an old school, the sanitary conditions were atrocious in the extreme. Only 10 childrens' toilets were available for the 1,200 inhabitants. At Dechenschule, 15 childrens' toilets were available for the 400 to 500 Eastern workers. Excretion contaminated the entire floors of these lavatories. There were also few facilities for washing. The supply of bandages, medicine, surgical instruments, and other medical supplies at these camps was likewise altogether insufficient. As a consequence, only the very worse cases were treated. The percentage of Eastern workers who were ill was twice as great as among the Germans. Tuberculosis was particularly widespread among the Eastern workers. The TB rate among them was 4 times the normal rate, Eastern workers 2%, Germans 5/10-1%. At Dechenschule approximately 2.5% of the workers suffered from open TB. These were all active TB cases. The Tartars and Kirghis suffered most; as soon as they were overcome by this disease they collapsed like flies.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 122, "page_number": "", "date": "03 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-03", "text": "The cause was bad housing, the poor quality and insufficient quantity of food, overwork and insufficient rest. These workers were likewise afflicted with spotted fever. Lice, the carrier of this disease, together with countless fleas, bugs and other vermin tortured the inhabitants of these camps. As a result of the filthy conditions of the camps nearly all Eastern workers were afflicted with skin diseases. The shortage of food also caused many cases of Hunher-Oedem, Nephritis and Shighakruse.\n103 a It was the general rule that workers were compelled to go to work unless a Camp Doctor has prescribed that they were unfit for work.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 123, "page_number": "104", "date": "03 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-03", "text": "At Seumannstrasse, Grieperstrasse, Germaniastrasse, Kapitan-Lehmannstrasse, and Dechenschule, there was no daily sick call. At these camps, the doctors did not appear for two or three days. As a consequence, workers were forced to go to work despite illnesses.\nThen skipping the next paragraph and coming down to the one commencing:\n\"With the onset of heavy air raids in March 1943, conditions in the camps greatly deteriorated. The problem of housing, feeding, and medical attention became more acute than ever. The workers lived in the ruins of their former barracks. Medical supplies which were used up, lost, or destroyed, were difficult to replace. At times, the water supply at the camp was completely shut off for a period of 8 to 10 days. We installed a few emergent toilets in the camps, but there were far too few of them to cope with the situation.\nDuring the period immediately following the March 1943 raids many foreign workers were made to sleep at the Krupp factories in the same rooms in which they worked. The day workers slept there at nights, and the night workers slept there during the day despite the noise which constantly prevailed. I believe that this condition continued until the entrance of American troops into Essen.\nThen going over to page 222, which is on page 5 of the German document book starting out:\n\"The French prisoner-of-war camp -\nTHE PRESIDENT:What page, Mr. Denney, please?\nMR.DENNEY; Page 224, sir, I am sorry.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Twenty-four.\nMR. DENNEY:Page 234. Yes, sir. Excuse me. At the top of the page. It's worthy of note that on the bottom of the preceding page he said that he was getting a thousand aspirin tablets to care for over 3,000 prisoners of war following the raid in 1943.\nMR. PRESIDENT:You understand, Mr. Denney. It's a hundred aspirins.", "speakers": [ "MR. PRESIDENT", "MR.", "MR. DENNEY", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 124, "page_number": "105", "date": "03 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-03", "text": "MR. DENNEY:I am sorry, sir. Yes, sir, a hundred aspirin tablets. I thank you, your Honor.\n\"The French Prisoner-of-War camp in Nogerratstrasse had been destroyed in an air raid attack and its inhabitants were kept for nearly half a year in dog kennels, urinals, and in old baking house. The dog kennels were three feet high, nine feet long, and six feet wide. Five men slept in each of them. The prisoners had to crawl into these kennels on all fours. The camp contained no tables, chairs of cupboards. The supply of blankets was inadequate. There was no water in the camp. That treatment was extended was given in the open. Mary of those conditions were reported to me in a report by Dr. Stinnesbeck dated 12 June 1944, in which he said:\n'315 prisoners are still accommodated in the camp. 170 of these are no longer in barracks but in the tunnel in Grunerstrasse under the Essen-Mulheim railway line. This tunnel is damp and is not suitable for continued accommodation of human beings. The rest of the prisoners are accommodated in 10 different factories in Krupps works. The first medical attention is given by a French Military Doctor who takes great pains with his fellow countrymen. Sick people from Krupp factories must be brought to the sick parade. This parade is held in the lavatory of a burned out public house outside the camp. The sleeping accommodation of the 4 French Ordlies is in what was the men's room. In the sick bay there is a double tier wooden bed. In general, the treatment takes place in the open. In rainy weather it is held in the above-mentioned small room. These are insufferable conditions: There are no chairs, tables, cupboards, or water. The keeping of a register of sick people is impossible. Bandages and medical supplies are very scarce, although badly hurt in the works are very often brought here for first aid and have to be bandaged here before being transported to hospital. There are many loud and lively complaints about food which the guard personnel confirms as being correct. Illness and loss of man power must be reckoned with under these conditions.\"", "speakers": [ "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 125, "page_number": "106", "date": "03 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-03", "text": "\"In my report to my superiors at Krupps dated 2 September 1944, I stated:\n\"The P.W. Camp at Noeggerathstrasse was in most deplorable condition. The people live in ashcans, doghouse, old baking stoves and self-made huts. The food was just scarcely enough. For food and lodging Krupp is responsible. The supply of medicines and bandages was so extremely bad, that a systematic medical treatment was absolutely impossible. \"Camp Humboldstresse has been inhabited by Italian prisoners of war. After it had been destroyed by an air raid, the Italians were removed and 600 Jewish families from Buchenwald Concentration Camp were brought in to work at the Krupp factories. Upon my first visit at Camp Humboldstrasse, I found these females suffering from festering wounds and other diseases. I was the first doctor they had seen for at least a fortnight. There was no doctor in attendance at the camp. There was no medical supplies in the camp. They had no shoes and went about in their bare feet. The sole clothing of each consisted of a sack with holes for their arms and head. Their hair was shorn. The camp was surrounded by barbed wire and closely guarded by SS guards.\"\n\"The amount of food in the camp was extremely meager and of a very poor quality. The houses in which they lived consisted of the ruins of former barracks and they afforded no shelter against rain and other weather conditions. I reported to my superiors that the guards lived and slept outside their barracks as one could not enter them without being attacked by 10. 20 and up to 50 fleas. One Camp Doctor employed by me refused to enter the camp again after he had been bitten very badly. I visited this camp with Mr. Greene on two occasions and both times we left the camp badly bitten. We had great difficulty in getting rid of the fleas and insects which had attacked us. As a result of this attack by insects of this camp, I got large boils on my arms and the rest of my body.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 126, "page_number": "107", "date": "03 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-03", "text": "I asked my superiors at the Krupp works to undertake the necessary steps to delouse the camp so as to put an end to this unbearable, vermin-infested condition. Despite this report, I did not find any improvement in sanitary conditions at the camp on my second visit a fortnight later.\n\"When foreign workers finally became too sick to work or were completely disabled they were returned to the Labor Exchange in Essen and from there, they were sent to a camp art Friedrichsfeld. Among persons who were returned over to the Labor Exchange were aggravated cases of tuberculosis, malaria, neurosis, career which could not be treated by operation, old age, and general feebleness. I know nothing about conditions at this camp because I have never visited it. I only know that it was a place to which workers who no longer of any use to Krupp were sent.\nMy colleagues and I reported all of the foregoing matters to Mr. Ihn, Director of Friedrich Krupp A. G., Dr. Wiels, Personal Physician of Gustav Krupp von Bohlen and Halbach, Senior Camp Leader Kupke and at all times to the Health Department. Moreover, I know that these gentlemen personally visited the camps.\"\nThe next document is NO. 2520-PS. It is an affidavit of Edward L. Deuss, the Economist for the Foreign Economic Administration, Washington, who served as an economic analyst in London, Paris and Germany, specializing in Labor and population problems in Germany during the war, dated November 1, 1945 and contains statements giving the approximate numbers of foreigners put to work for the German war-effort by nationalities and also indicating how many of them were prisoners-ofwar. It will be Exhibit No. 43. The note which he has made after his figures which show? that 4,795,000 workers of various nationalities. The highest being 1,900,000 Russians and the lowest being 2,000 Bulgarians and 1,873,000 prisoners-of-war, Russians, French, Poles, Italians and Belgians is as follows:", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 127, "page_number": "108", "date": "03 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-03", "text": "\"Of the estimated 6,691,000 approximately 2,000,000 civilian foreigners and 245,000 prisoners-of-war were employed directly in the manufacture of armaments and munitions and aproducts or components on the 31 December 1944, according to Speer Ministry tabulations. The highest number of prisoners-of-war so employed was 400,000 in June 1944, the decrease to December 1944 being accounted for in part by a change in status from prisoners to civilian workers. A figure of 2,070,000 Russians uncovered in the American, British and French zones, given in \"Displaced Persons Report No. 43\", of the Combined Displaced Persons' Executive, c/o G-5 Division, USFET, 30 September 1945, was increased by 430,000 to allow for Russians estimated to have been found on German territory conquered by the Red Army.\"\nAt this time, if your Honor please, we would like to pass those documents L-NO-159 and in view of the fact that we have not served another document book on Dr, Bergold I respectfully request that we be allowed to adjourn and perhaps Dr. Bergold and I can take up some of these questions which he has raised today.\nMR. PRESIDENT:Very well. The Tribunal will recess until Monday morning at 9:30.\nTHE MARSHAL:The Tribunal will arise. The Tribunal will recess until 0930 hours Monday, 6 January 1947.\n(The Tribunal adjourned until 6 January 1947 at 0930 hours)", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "MR. PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 128, "page_number": "109", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America against Erhard Milch, defendant, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 6 January 1947, 0935, Justice Toms, presiding.\nTHE MARSHALL: Military Tribunal No. 2 is now in session. God Save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal. There will be order in the Court.\nMR. DENNEY: If Your Honors please, the document books which we will not touch for a moment, but which have been delivered to you this morning are No. 2-A, B and C, and No. 3-A and B. I regret that in spite of my promise the index still appears in the first volume, in one case a series of three and in the second case a series of 2. I believe this is the last time we will have to submit document books in series. Hereafter I hope they will be separate, and I shall do my bost to got the index, as I told Your Honors I would.\nFirst, if Your Honors would turn to Document Book 1-A, there were some documents which we omitted on Friday for a variety of reasons, and at this time if we could go back and pick those up, so to speak, the record will be complete. I believe the first document which was passed was No. 2233-PS-A which appears on Page 12 of the English Book, and I believe in the interpreter's book it comes just after 1375-PS.\nTHE PRESIDENT: Mr. Denney, have you designated Book 1 as 1-A and 1-B?\nMR DENNEY: Well, I guess that is the way they are designated, Your Honor. I know it's considered as one book, but I just said 1-A because of the fact that they are broken up in two parts so that it will help Your Honors.\nTHE PRESIDENT: In order to follow the same number of plans as you have in your leader document books, shall we call these books 1-A and 1-B?\nMR DENNEY: One-A and 1-B, Yes Sir.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 129, "page_number": "110", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "Dr. Bergold, do you have copies now of 2233-PS-A, B, is that right?\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes.\nMR. DENNEY:The first document being 2233-PS-A which we offer as Exhibit 4-A. There is an entry from the Diary of Frank for 10 May 1940, speaking of the Governor General of Poland, he says:\n\"The Governor General deals with the problems of the Compulsory Labor Service of the Poles. Upon the demands from the Reich, it has now been decreed that compulsion may be exercised in view of the fact that sufficient manpower was not voluntarily available for service inside the German Reich. This compulsion means the possible arrest of male and female Poles. Because of these measures, a certain disquietude had developed which, according to the individual reports was spreading very much, and which might produce difficulties everywhere. General Field Marshall Goering some time ago pointed out in a long speech, the necessity to deport into the Reich a million workers. The supply so far was 160,000. However, great difficulties had to be overcome. Therefore, it would be advisable to consult the district and town chiefs in the execution of the compulsion, so that one could be sure from the start that this action would be reasonably successful. The arrest of young Poles when leaving church service or the cinema would bring about an increasing nervousness of the Poles. Generally speaking, he had no objections at all if the rubbish, capable of work yet often loitering about, would be snatched from the streets. The best method for this, however, would be the organization of a raid, and it would be absolutely justifiable to stop a Pole in the street and to question him what he was doing, where he was working, and so forth.\"\nTHE PRESIDENT:Mr. Denney, just to make it clear, will you identify the Governor General and also Frank as to who they were.\nMR. DENNEY:If Your Honor please, I believe that the Governor General of Poland at that time was Frank himself. I shall check to make sure, but it is my understanding -\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:That would appear to be correct because the document is entitled \"Frank's Diary,\" and I presume we can take judicial.", "speakers": [ "THE PRESIDENT", "DR. BERGOLD", "MR. DENNEY", "JUDGE MUSMANNO" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 130, "page_number": "111", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "notice of the fact that he was a defendant before the First Trial in the International Military Tribunal, and has since been executed.\nMR. DENNEY: Yes, Your Honor.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 131, "page_number": "112", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "MR. DENNEY:The next document is 2233-PS-B which we offer as Prosecution Exhibit 4-B (for Baker) is another excerpt from Frank's Diary.\n\"Saturday, March 16, 1940 The Governor General remarks that he had long negotiations in Berlin with the representative of the Reichministry for Finance and the Reichministry for Food.\nOne has made the urgent demand there that Polish farm workers should be sent to the Reich in greater numbers. He has made the statement in Berlin and he, if it is demanded from him, could naturally exercise force in such a manner, that he has the police surround a village and get the men and women, in question, out by force, and then send them to Germany. But one can also work differently, besides these police measures, by retaining the unemployment compensation of these workers in question.\"\n1352, if your Honors please, was offered as Exhibit 3 and then withdrawn because Dr. Bergold did not have a complete copy. I believe now, Dr. Bergold, you do have a complete copy of 1352-PS. Is that correct?\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes.\nMr. DENNEY: This is offered now as Prosecution Exhibit No.5, it having been assigned that number prior to the time it was withdrawn, It appears on page 14 of your Honors' document book.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Mr. Denney, we have just been handed by the Page another document which is a partial translation of document No. 1352-PS.\nMR. DENNEY:Yes, your Honor.\nTHE PRESIDENT:It is not identical with the one in the bound document volume.\nMR. DENNEY:These are additional pages which should have come with the document when it was first bound which were left out of your Honors' document books, also this one, and of Dr. Bergold's.\nMR. PRESIDENT:Mr. Denney, so we wont get the papers confused will you tell us at what point this additional part of Exhibit 3 is to be inserted?", "speakers": [ "THE PRESIDENT", "MR. PRESIDENT", "DR. BERGOLD", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 132, "page_number": "", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "MR. DENNEY:Just after page 13, if your Honors please. I believe your Honors have in the book prior to what we have given you pages 14, 15, 16, 17.\n112 a and 18 which are headed Confidential Report and signed on the fourth page by one, Kusche.", "speakers": [ "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 133, "page_number": "113", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "Then there are additional pages. Dr. Bergold, will you check yours and make sure you have than. One, report of two pages, headed Kattowitz, May 22, 1940. Do you have that Dr. Bergold?\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes.\nMR. DENNEY:Signed again by Kusche. And a report of three pages, headed Berlin , Friedr. Str., May 29, 1940. Do you have that, Dr. Bergold?\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes, sir.\nTHE PRESIDENT:We do not have that second throe page document. We do have the two page document, dated May 22 from Kattowitz.\nMR. DENNEY:Yes.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Subject on the details of confiscation in the Bielitz country.\nMR. DENNEY:Yes.\nTHE PRESIDENT:But we do not have the second three-page document you refer to.\nMR. DENNEY:If your Honors please, we will pass this again. I am sorry this has happened. I hope it will be cleared up. Perhaps we can offer as Exhibit 5 the pages 15 to 18 of your Honors' document book and the secret report signed by Kusche which is dated Kattowitz, May 22, 1940 - Dr. Bergold has the additional one - at a later time when we can serve your Honors with copies of this we can then offer that as annex to Exhibit 5.\nTHE PRESIDENT:All right. We will mark these two pages, pages 17-a and b, and they will follow page 17.\nMR. DENNEY:Very well, sir. Then, with your Honors' permission, we will read into the record parts of Exhibit 5 when we have the exhibit complete. Turning now to page 22 in your Honors' document book to 3044-PSB which we now offer as Prosecution Exhibit 6-A. These are instructions concerning Eastern household workers.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Mr. Denney, did you not intend to read Exhibit 5 into the records?", "speakers": [ "THE PRESIDENT", "DR. BERGOLD", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 134, "page_number": "114", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "MR. DENNEY:If your Honors please, I would appreciate it if I could wait until we get the other three pages and then read it in at that time.\nThis concerns free time for domestic workers.\n\"Free time.\n\"There is no claim for free time.\nFemale domestic workers from the East may, on principle, leave the household only to take care of domestic tasks. As a reward for good work, however, they may be given the opportunity to stay outside the home without work for 3 hours once a week. This leave must end with the onset of darkness, at the latest at 2000 hours. It is prohibited to enter restaurants, movies, or other theaters and similar establishments provided for Germans or foreign workers. Attending church is also prohibited. Special events may be arranged for Eastern domestics in urban homes by the German Workers Front, for Eastern domestics in rural homes by the Reich Food Administration with the German Woman's League.\nOutside the home, the Eastern domestic must always carry her work card as a personal pass.\nVacations, Return to homes.\nVacations are not granted as yet.\nThe recruiting of Eastern domestics is for an indefinite period.\"\nIf your Honors please, the next document is on page 38 which is document D-316. It was assigned the Exhibit No. 12 and then withdrawn. At this time we wish to renew the offer of D-316 as Exhibit No. 12. Dr. Bergold, do you have as the first page of that exhibit a letter to Mr. Huper having to do with allocation of Russians, dated 14 March 1942, from Krupp Works at Essen?\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes.\nMR. DENNEY:This provides in part: \"During the last few days we have established that the food for the Russians employed here is so miserable that the people are getting weaker from day to day.\nInvestigations showed that single Russians are not able to place a piece of metal for turning into position, for instance, because of lack of physical strength.", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 135, "page_number": "115", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "The same conditions exist at all places of work where Russians are employed.\nIf it cannot be seen to, that the feeding is changed in such a way that a normal output can be demanded from these people, then the employment of these people; with the necessary expense connected thereto, has been in vain; I do not think it is worth while employing any more Russians, from whom I cannot expect any results in production, although they are sent to me as productive workers.\nI expect that the same conditions prevail inside all the other works. It would only be right if you via the firm take steps to clear up this matter.\"\nThe next document appears on page 56 of your Honors'document book, being 3044-PS, which we now offer as Prosecution Exhibit 14-A.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 136, "page_number": "116", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "This is rather a long document, and apparently there are some indications in at that Sauckel is seeking to have better working conditions. However, there are one or two things which I should like to point out to Your Honors specifically.\nFirst, on page 56. Do your Honors have a page 56,57, 58,59,60, up to 63 of this?\nTHE PRESIDENT:Yes. To 63, inclusive.\nMR. DENNEY:Do you have it, Dr. Bergold?\nDR. BERGOLD:In German: That is not a page number, is it?\nMR. DENNEY:No, it is not a page. Do you have document 3044--PS?\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes.\nMR. DENNEY:You do? The first page, starting in the second paragraph:\n\"In the tremendous struggle of fate of Europe, the Greater German Reich is constrained to import a tremendous number of nonGerman (foreign) workers of both sexes into the Reich to secure its armament and food supply. All of these working people, prisoners of war included, will be treated according to the oldest traditions of the German people and, of course, correctly, decently, and humanely.\n\"The recruitment of foreign labor will be done on the fundamental basis of volunteering. There, however, in the occupied territories the appeal for volunteers does not suffice, obligatory service and drafting must be under all circumstances resorted to.", "speakers": [ "MR. DENNEY", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 137, "page_number": "117", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "This is an indisputable requirement of our labor situation.\n\"Recruitment must be made to benefit the prestige of the Greater German Reich and the will of the Fuehrer. Irresponsible promises regarding pay, contracts, housing, free time, etc., must not be made. Living conditions in Germany itself, which are better than anywhere else in Europe, can and should be emphasized, without exaggeration being necessary. Jewish methods of catching people, such as are customary in the democratic states of the capitalistic age, are unworthy of the Greater German Reich. with the above principles as a basis, I order the following: __\" And then it goes on.\nHowever, there are a few things I would like to point out to Your Honors. On Page 60 -- Of course, Your Honors are aware of the other documents that have been put in. Under (5):\n\"Ethnic Germans, as far as possible, will be separated from the foreign members of the transport.\"\nContinuing on the last page, we find again the words \"Special Treatment,\" which have been identified as meaning hanging. Roman Numeral V:\n\"Special treatment of individual foreign workers groups: The special regulations concerning the treatment of individual groups of foreign workers will remain unchanged.\"\nThe next document is at page 66, which is 3044-PS-A. Do you have that, Dr. Bergold?\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes, sir.\nMR. DENNEY:This is offered by the Prosecution as Exhibit 15-A. This is a portion of a Sauckel order, dated 22 August 1942:\n\"The resources of manpower that are available in the occupied territories are to be employed primarily to satisfy the requirements of importance for the war in Germany itself. In allocating the said labor resources in the Occupied Territories, the following order of priority will be observed:", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 138, "page_number": "118", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "(a) Labor required for the troops, the occupation authorities, and the civil authorities;\n(b) Labor required for the German armaments;\n(c) Labor required for food and agriculture;\n(d) labor required for industrial work other than armaments, which is in the interest of Germany;\n(c) Labor required for industrial work in the interests of the population of the territory in question.\"\nThe next document appears on page 70, which is 084-PS. Do you have that, Dr. Berghold?\nDR. BERGHOID:Yes, sir.\nMR. DENNEY:Thank you. This is a report by one Dr. Gutkelch, dated 30 September, Berlin. It is believed to be a report of 1942. The year does not appear. We offer this as Exhibit No. 16A. On page 71, which is page 2 of the report, after number (1):\n\"The concept of workers in the occupied territories of the USSR was narrowed down to the labor and social legal term 'Eastern laborer'. The labor condition among foreigners was hereby created and segregated employment under special conditions which had to be looked upon by those affected as degrading.\n\"The drafting of Eastern workers and women workers often occurred without the necessary examination of the capabilities of those concerned, so that five to ten out of a hundred, sick and children, were transported along. On the other hand, in those places where no volunteers were obtained, instead of using the lawful employment obligations, coercive measures were used by the police: imprisonment, penal expeditions, and similar measures.\n3. \"The employment in businesses was not undertaken by considering the occupation and previous training but according to the chance assignment of the individual to the respective transports or transient camps.", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGHOID", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 139, "page_number": "119", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "\"The billeting did not follow the policies according to which the other foreigners are governed but just was for civilian prisoners in camps which were fenced in by barbed wire and heavily guarded and from which no exit was permitted.\n\"The treatment by the guards was on the average without intelligence and cruel, so that the Russian and Ukrainian workers in enterprises with foreign labor of different nationalities were exposed to the scorn of the Poles and Czechs, among other things. The food and care was so bad and insufficient in the camps for the Eastern laborers being employed in industry and in the mines that the good average capability of the camp members dropped down shortly and many sicknesses and deaths took place.\"\nAnd then, \"Payment\":\n\"Payment was carried out in the form of a ruling in which the industrial worker would keep on the average 2 or 3 RM each week and the farm laborers even less, so that the transfer of pay to their homes became illusory, not to mention the fact that there had been no satisfactory procedure developed for this.\n\"The postal service with their families was not feasible for months because cf the lack of a precautionary ruling, so that instead of factual reports, wild rumors arrived in their countries, among other means by means of emigration.\n\"The promises which had been made time and time again in the areas of enlistment stood in contradiction with those facts mentioned under Paragraph 3-8.\"\nAnd then on page 72, which is page 3 in the English and is the last part of the third full paragraph from where we have just concluded in German:\n\"There are some numbers in a series cf documents which have been found with the staffs of destroyed German units there is a directive to the order of the High Command under No. 2974/41 of 6 December 1942 which directs that all grown men are to be deported from occupied populated points into prisoner of war camps.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 140, "page_number": "", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "From the order to the 37th Infantry Regiment of the 6th Division of 2 December 1941 under the heading \"About the deportation of 119a the civilian population\" it can be deduced that for the period from the 4th to the 12th of December the capture and forceful deportation of the total population of seven villages to the German rear areas was planned, for which a carefully worked out plan was proposed.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 141, "page_number": "120", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "\" 'Sometimes all the inhabitants were deported, sometimes the men were torn away from their families or mothers were separated from their children. Only the smallest number of these deported people have been able to return to their home villages. These returnees report terrible degradations, heaviest forced labor, abundant deaths among inhabitants because of starvation and tortures and murder by the Fascists of all the weak, wounded, and sick.' \" The next document is 294-PS, which appears at page 92 of the document book 1-A. Do you have 294, Dr. Bergold?\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes.\nMR. DENNY:We offer it as Exhibit 19-A.", "speakers": [ "MR. DENNY", "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 142, "page_number": "121", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "This is a top secret memorandum,signed by one \"Brautigam\", concerning conditions in Russia, dated October 25, 1942. Directing Your Honor's attention to page 95 of the English translation, the large paragraph starting in the middle of the page. The paragraph starts out, Mr. Interpreter, \"Of primary importance --\" It's about two-thirds of the way through the document. Just after a very short paragraph which is headed, \"The Main Department for Politics Was Compelled\", a paragraph of about three lines. \"Of primary importance, the treatment of prisoners of war should be named. It is no longer a secret from friend or foe that hundreds of thousands of them literally have died of hunger or cold in our camps. Allegedly, there were not enough food supplies on hand for them. It is especially peculiar that the food supplies are deficient only for the prisoners of war from the Soviet Union, while complaints about the treatment of other prisoners of war, Polish, Serbian, French, and English, have not become loud. It is obvious that nothing is so suitable for strengthening the power of resistance of the Red Army as the knowledge that, in German captivity, a slow, miserable death is to be met. To be sure, the main department for politics has succeeded here, by unceasing efforts in bringing about a material improvement in the fate of the prisoners of war. We now experience, however, this improvement is not to be ascribed to political acumen, but to the sudden realization that our labor market must be supplied with laborers at once. We now experience the grotesque picture of having to recruit millions of laborers from the occupied Eastern Territories, after prisoners of war have died of hunger like flies, in order to fill the gaps that are formed within Germany. Now the food question no longer existed. In the prevailing limitless abuse of the Slavic humanity, recruiting methods were used which probably had their origin only in the blackest periods of the slave trade. A regular manhunt was inaugurated. Without consideration of health or age, the people were shipped to Germany, where it turned out immediately that far more than 100,000 had to be sent back because of serious illnesses and other incapabilities for work. This system in no way considered that these methods would of necessity have their effect on the power of resistance of the Red Army, since these methods were used only in the Soviet Union, of course, and in no way remotely resembling this form in enemy countries like Holland or Norway.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 143, "page_number": "122", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "Actually, we have made it quite easy for Soviet propaganda to augment the hate for Germany and the National Socialist system. The Soviet soldier fights more and more bravely in spite of the efforts of our population to find another name for this bravery. Valuable German blood must flow more and more in order to break the resistance of the Red Army. Obviously, the Main Department for Politics has struggled unceasingly to place the methods of acquiring workers and their treatment within Germany on a rational foundation. Originally it was thought in all earnestness to demand the utmost efforts at a minimum cost of the biological knowledge has led to an improvement. Now 400,000 female household workers from the Ukraine arc to come to Germany, and already the German press announces publicly that these people have no right to free time and may not visit theaters, movies, restaurants and so forth, and may leave the house, at the most, three hours a week, apart from exceptions concerning duty.\n\"In addition there is the treatment of the Ukrainians in the Reichs Commissariats itself. With a presumption unequalled we put aside all political knowledge and to the glad surprise of all the colored world treat the peoples of the occupied Eastern territories as whites of Class 2, who apparently have only the task of serving as slaves for Germany and Europe. Only the most limited education is suitable for them, no solicitude can be given them. Their sustenance interests us only insofar as they are still capable of labor, and in every respect they are given to understand that we regard them as of the most minute value.\"\nThat, I believe, concludes the exhibits in Book 1-A, except for the three pages of No. 5 which we hope to be able to give Your Honors this afternoon. Now, turning to 1-B, the first one is 556 PS. We are unable to find the original of that, so we have excluded that for the time being, and unless we can find the original, why we will not be able to offer it.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 144, "page_number": "", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "The first one then becomes 1726 PS, which was assigned the number 23, and 122a which we now offer as Exhibit No. 23.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 145, "page_number": "123", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "THE PRESIDENT:What about 40? PS?\nMR. DENNEY: 407PS wedo not wish to offer, Your Honor. We feel that that's repetitious. This appears in 103 of Your Honor's Document Book, and I believe was left out, at least in part, when they initially entered it. You have 1726 PS, Dr. Bergold? We offer this as Exhibit No. 23.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Is this the document we received as a supplement to page 108?\nMR. DENNEY:The one in the document bock is merely an excerpt, Your Honor, and this is the complete document.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Well, we can strike out page 108 and substitute the pages that we've just received.\nMR. DENNEY:Yes, sir; page 108 and 109, if Your Honor please, excerpts from this complete report which were inadvertently placed in the bock, so 108 and 109 can be disregarded and substituted therefore, these six pages which are headed Netherlands Government Commissioner for Repatriation Section, Eastern Europe.\nTHE PRESIDENT:And we've numbered these pages 108 and 108 A through E.\nMR. DENNEY:Thank you, sir.\nTHE PRESIDENT:I didn't have my key; that's when I said that, and I want to change it anyway. We'll number these pages 108, and 108 A through E, and the last page will be 109. Then there's no skip in the tabulation.\nMR. DENNEY:Yes, Your Honor.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Did you also say, Mr. Denney, that 556PS willnot be offered; that's the one just ahead of this in the index.\nMR. DENNEY:Yes, Your Honor.\nTHE PRESIDENT:You did not cross off that?", "speakers": [ "MR. DENNEY", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 146, "page_number": "", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "MR. DENNEY:No, Your Honor. This is a report of the German measures in Holland, during the occupation, particularly having to do with treatment of the Jewish people in that country. The report is self-explanatory.\n123a There are a few items which might be called to the attention of the Courts on page 1, the first item in the case is that the \"Jews were removed from Civil Defence services.\"", "speakers": [ "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 147, "page_number": "124", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "Item number 8, all Jews were dismissed from Government service. Item number 10, in part, well complete; \"Formation - on German orders - of the Jewish Council as liaison between the German authorities and the Dutch Jews - Jews no longer allowed to have contact with Netherlands officials.\" \"The Jews are forbidden to visit cinemas\", and, at the bottom they imply that Nurnberg laws on marriage and sexual contact between non-Jews and Jews -- Jews who are bethrothed to non-Jews will be arrested and sent to concentration camps. \"Jewish lawyers, doctors and chemists were no longer allowed to have any but Jewish clients, patients respectively.\"\nAnd then, the third entry from the bottom, \"Thousands of Jews sent to Netherlands Labor Camps, of which especially the camp at Ellecom was notorious for the ill-treatment of its inmates. Age originally between 18 and 35, afterwards 18 and 55.\"", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 148, "page_number": "125", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "And then if your Honor will note there are several references to moving them, on Page 108-C, to a camp called Westerbork. One of July 19A2, completion of the \"aryanisation\" or liquidation of Jewish firms; decision to intern the Jews gradually in Westerbork to be deported from there to Poland; and then since November 1942 Jews taken from their houses, from now on assembled in the so-called \"Jewish Theatre\" in Amsterdam, from where they were sent to Westerbork after a few days; April 1943, Jews living outside Amsterdam sent to the camp at Vught - a labor camp for the German Army - and eventually transported to Westerbork; September 1943, last Jews from Amsterdam including the leaders of the Jewish council, sent to Westerbork. The transfer to Westerbork took place gradually from the Summer of 1942 till the Autumn of 1943.\nOver on Page 108-C, \"Westerbork - of which we need not give a description here - 12,000 to 15,000 persons used to live at the same time; they were housed in huts which were adjusted for the purpose, and each of which contained about 800 persons.\n\"All Jewish Netherlanders, whom the Germans could lay their hands on - with the exception of a small group of exempted persons, were brought together here; hospitals, old age homes, institutions for the blind and other disabled persons were emptied in order to concentrate the inmates in Westbork for deportation. Even the inmates of lunatic asylums did not escape deportation.\n\"Gradually all those interned in Westerbork were deported to Poland - old people and babies included!\n\"Once or twice a week a train \"Westerbork-Auschwitz\" left with 1200 to 2,000 persons. Originally these trains were composed of passenger cars afterwards only goods vans, (first with and afterwards without straw) in each of which about 60 deportees used to be transported. Even sick people were loaded into goods vans. Every deportee was allowed to take maximum 15 kilograms of luggage with him. The choice of those to be deported was more or less arbitrary, some were able to get their deportation temporarily postponed by means of so-called \"Sperr\" stamps. In the Autumn of 1943, all those who had been interned Vught - a number of about 1200 were deported to Poland - with the exception of diamond workers and those employed at Philips (Het Parcol, 15/12/43) \"The above enumeration shows clearly the gradual character of the measured of the enemy, some of which may seem of little importance.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 149, "page_number": "126", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "The Dutch Jews were deprived of their livelihood, their property and possessions were confiscated, every freedom of movement was taken from them, they were isolated from their fellow-citizens, and finally, as a group without any rights, humiliated and extruded, they were deported, condemned to slave labor and as it is to be feared partly killed.\n\"It is almost impossible to get details about the individual fate of Dutch Jews deported to Poland.\n\"After their leaving Holland all trace of them was lost. Absorbed in an agglomeration of deportees from almost all occupied countries, they can no longer be identified as a separate group.\"\nAnd on the next page it indicates that various numbers of Jewish people who were deported were distributed to Poland, 100,000 nonNetherlands subjects --- Netherland subjects; and non-Netherlands subjects 15,000 - 115,000; to Terezin, Netherlands subjects, 1,000; nonNetherlands subjects, 1,000-2,000. That is a break-down of the figure above of 117,000.\nThe next document, I believe, is No. 28, Document 3012, was offered as No. 28, and then withdrawn, and there was one letter missing from the exhibit. I believe, Dr. Bergold, you now should have a letter signed by General der Infanterie Stapf, and then a memo signed by an SS Major and Commanding Officer, Christensen, dated 19 March 1933. Do you have those?\nJust a minute, please.\n(At this point in the record the reporter asked for the exhibits to be handed to her, as exhibits were handed to the court, opposing counsel, and all parties concerned except the reporters.)\nMR. DENNY:I am sorry, it is not our fault you don't have them. You certainly should, but we have nothing to do with furnishing the exhibits and we certainly want you to have them.", "speakers": [ "MR. DENNY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 150, "page_number": "", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "Apparently Dr. Bergold doesn't have them either. You do have? And 126 a do you have the two pages ofPS 3012, signed by Christensen, the SS Major?", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 151, "page_number": "127", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "It may be in the supplementary folder which Mr. Blakesly delivered to you on Friday, 3012-PS, which was offered in part as Exhibit 28.\nThis follows Exhibit 019 PS. Do you have these reports signed by Christensen, the SS Major?\nDR. BERGOLD:We have the documents.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Does this supplement the pages already in the document?\nMR. DENNY:It does, your Honor, please.\nTHE PRESIDENT:In addition to it?\nMR. DENNY:Yes, the page in the book has already been read in. Dr. Bergold consented at that time if I would consent to reading this until such time as we got the copy to him.\nTHE PRESIDENT:We will mark this page 131-A and B.\nMR DENNY:Does the Secretary General have one which he could loan to Judge Mussmano, and I will furnish you with additional copies after the morning hearing.\nThis rill be 131-A and B, Your Honor, please. This is a memo of March 19, 1943, by one Christensen, an SS Major, and commanding officer. He speaks cf the SS measures which have been carried out recently. He says, \"I deem it the task of the Security Police and of the Security service to discover all enemies of the Reich and fight against them in the interest of security, and in the zone of operations especially to guarantee the security of the army. Besides the annihilation of active opponents, all other elements who, by virtue of their opinions or their past, may appear active as enemies under favorable conditions, are to be eliminated through preventative measures. The Security Police carries out this task according to the general directives of the Fuhrer with all the required toughness. Energetic measures are especially necessary in territories endangered by the activity of hostile gangs. The competence of the Security Police within the zone of operations is based on Barbarossadecrees. I deem the measures of the Security Police, carried out on a considerable scale during recent times, necessary for the two following reasons:", "speakers": [ "MR DENNY", "MR. DENNY", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 152, "page_number": "128", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "\"The situation at the front in my sector has become so serious that the population, partly influenced by Hungarians and Italians, who streamed back in chaotic condition, took openly position against us.\n\"The strong expeditions of hostile gangs, who came especially from the forest of Brvansk, were another reason. Besides that, other revolutionary groups, formed by the population, appeared suddenly in all districts. The providing of arms evidently provided had no difficulties at all. It would have been irresponsible, if we had observed this whole activity without acting against it. It is obvious that all such measures bring about some harshness. I want to take up the significant points of harsh measures:\n1. The shooting of Hungarian Jews 2. The shooting of Agronoms 3. The shooting of children 4. The total burning down of villages 5. The \"shooting, while trying to escape,\" of Security Service prisoners.\n\"Chief of Committment Group C confirmed once more the correctness of the measures taken, and expressed his recognition for the energetic actions.\n\"With regard to the current political situation, especially in the armament industry in the fatherland, the measures of the Security Police have to be subordinated to the greatest extent to the recruiting of labor for Germany. In the shortest possible time, the Ukraine has to put at the disposal of the armament industry 1 million workers, 500 of whom have to be sent from our territory daily.\n\"The work of the field groups has therefore to be changed.\n\"The following orders are given:\n\"1. Special treatment is to be limited to a minimum.\n2. The listing of communist functionaries, activists and so on, is to take place by roster only for the time being, without arresting anybody. It is for instance, no longer feasible to arrest all the close relatives of a member of the communist party.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 153, "page_number": "", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "Although, members of the Komsomolz 128 a are to be arrested only, if they were active in a leading position.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 154, "page_number": "129", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "\"3. The activity of the labor offices, respective of recruiting commissions, is to be supported to the greatest extent possible. It will not be possible always to refrain from using force. During a conference with the Chief of the Labor Commitment Staffs, an agreement was reached stating that wherever prisoners can be released, they should be put at the disposal of the Commissioner of the Labor Office. When searching villages, when it has become necessary to burn down a village, the whole population will be put at the disposal of the Commissioner by force.\n\"4. As a rule, no more children will be shot.\n\"5. The reporting of hostile gangs as well as drives against them is not affected hereby. All drives against those hostile gangs can only take place after my approval has been obtained.\n\"6. The prisons have to be kept empty, as a rule. We have to be aware of the fact, that the Slave will interpret all soft treatment on our part as weakness and that they will act accordingly right away. If we limit our harsh measures of security police through above orders for the time being, that is only done for the following reason.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 155, "page_number": "130", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "The most important thing is the recruiting of workers. No check of persons to be sent into the Reich will be made. No written certificates of political reliability check or similar things will be issued.\"\nTHE PRESIDENT:That disposition was made of 407?\nMR.DENNY: 407, we do not wish to offer, your Honor.\nThe next one appears at page 133 of your Honors' document book, which is 290 PS. Do you have that, Dr. Bergold? I believe it is being brought to you now, Doctor. It should contain two pages. It should be 153 and 154 in your Honors' book. Do you have a copy now, Doctor?\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes, sir:\nMR. DENNY:The second letter which concerns the command of an official in the activities of one Mueller. This is Exhibit 37. This is offered, your Honor, as Exhibit 37. It was given that number before, and was withdrawn. Document 290 P.S. is Exhibit No. 37.\nStarting at the bottom of Page 133, close to the middle of the second paragraph in the second letter:\n\"But oven if Mueller had been present got the burning of houses in connection with the national conscription in Biloserka, this should by no means lead to the relief of Mueller from office. It is mentioned specifically in a directive of the Commissioner General in Lusk of 21 Sep. 1942 referring to the extreme urgency of the national conscription.\n\"Estates of those who refuse to work are to be burned, their relatives are to be arrested as hostages and to be brought to forced \"labor camps. It is obvious that this decree was merely directive in nature and was not a binding ordor of the individual commissioner to decide according to his own discretion, when the interest of the conscription, such severe measures were to be applied.", "speakers": [ "MR. DENNY", "MR.", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 156, "page_number": "", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "\"I request therefor to consider the case closed.\"\nThe next document, which is 1913 P.S. which was not offered on - 130 a Friday, and we now offer it as Exhibit 38-A. This is an agreement signed by Sauckel and Dr. Ley, dated Berlin, 20 September 1943.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 157, "page_number": "131", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "\"The following agreement has been concluded between the Plenipotentiary General for the Arbeitseinsatz, Gauleiter and Reich Governor SAUCKEL and the Reichsleiter of the German Labor Front, Reicherganisation leader Dr. LEY:\n\"1. The German Labor Front, on the basis of certain decrees which are mentioned has the solo and exclusive mission of caring for all foreign workers employed within the Reich. Excluded are the farm workers employed in the Reich food Administration.\n\"2. The Reichsleiter of the German Labor Front, Reichsorganisationsleiter Dr. LEY in collaboration with the Plenipotentiary General for the Arboitseinsatz, Gauleiter SAUCKEL, will establish a 'central inspection' for the contiuous supervision of all measures concerning the care of the foreign workers mentioned under 1. This will have the designation.\n\"'Central inspection for the care of foreign workers'.\"", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 158, "page_number": "132", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "The next document, if Your Honors please, is on page 180, which is 3721-PS. We do not offer 31-PS; we offer 3721-PS as Prosecution Exhibit 41-A. It seems, Mr. Blakeslee reminds me, that on Saturday or Friday, Document No. 204-PS, which is No. 39 in evidence, there was a page missing in your Honors' book, and I believe that page is now-don't have it to be distributed -- Page 8. And that page is being typed and will be distributed this noon or this evening.\nWe come now to 3721-PS which the Prosecution has offered as Exhibit 41-A Interrogation. This is an interrogation of Fritz Sauckel which was conducted on 22 September 1945. I direct Your Honors' attention to page 188 and 189. In the German, that is about half way through. It occurs on page 9 of the English text. It starts out: \"I believe this Central Planning was founded...\"\n\"I believe this Central Planning was founded about three months after my taking over my office.\" -- Sauckel speaking concerning his position as Plenipotentiary for Labor--\" This was founded on account of a law by the Fuehrer or just upon an agreement between the Fuehrer and Speer and Goering- I don't know. The leader and Chairman of this General Planning was Speer himself. How the Central Planning was founded to take the work from the Four-Year Plan to Speer, I think, because Goering was already ill at that tine and there were also difficulties about which I am not informed. Speer constantly took the job of the great changes in new production under his own direction. Steady members of this Central Planning were the State Secretary and Field Marshal. Milch, and the State Secretary Kcerner. These three were responsible for the decisions of the Control Planning. Orders for internal affairs, they went through this office if they were worked out by other people inside the office.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 159, "page_number": "133", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "I was only called to this Central Planning if my mission was discussed, and the demands were put before me and my offices from Speer, FourYear plan, as well as from Milch. The Fuehrer himself told me to fulfill these demands without question. In other words, if Speer asked me for certain amount of workers, for instance, several thousand, I could not refuse him. The concerned minister had to give the number to the Central Planning and that was the only place where the number of workers could be discussed. In the Central Planning it was decided how many workers I was able to supply to these carious sections like Milch and Speer, agriculture, and so on. If it came to an argument these discussions were brought before the Fuehrer and he then decided upon them himself.\"\nThere is a quotation on Page 184 and 185 which is back on Page 5 and 7 of the English original, still talking about Exhibit No. 4l-A, Document 3721-PS, Sauckel interrogation of Spetember 22, 1945, paragraph starting out:\n\"Now, coming to the end of all this, I must say that in the year 1944, there was hardly any new workers left which could be used any more. The only thing was left to undertake certain concentration within the German war production itself. Himmler, himself, for reasons of his own initiative, concerned himself with that. He, therefore, used especially for the underground factories which were his own work more or less, the people from the concentration camps. Once he said to the Fuehrer when I was present that the workers from the concentration camps were the best ones. I was opposed to that and also talked to the Fuehrer about that because I saw in that disqualification of workers, the workers themselves and the atmosphere they were in.\n\"I say that under oath now that I never was concerned with any of these things, that is, the transferring of the people from the concentration camps to those places of work. I also don't know how this happened and I never had anything whatsoever to do with any of the administration of other kind of work which occurred there. I also don't know how this was done. All I know about this is that entrusted with this kind of work was an SS Obergruppen fuehrer Kammler, who was an engineer, and Obergrupponfuchrer Pohl, who was responsible for tho conscription, of the people from tho concentration camp to the places of work.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 160, "page_number": "134", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "I am completely unable to tell you to what extent these people from the concentration camps were used. Also, I am not able to toll you under what conditions they were working. i, myself, was never interested in all these things and therefore I kept away from them a.s much as possible.\n\"I was never informed about anything of that nature either by Hitler, the Reichminister, or Goebbels, officially. All this work was done by the SS themselves. This was Office 6 of the SS. I can tell you that for sure because we don't know anything about the SS. I just reported as far as I can remember the things the way I would have reported them to the Fuehrer himself or Milch about the work, details of the work, from the beginning to the end. To give an overall picture, I therefore put down on paper seven points which I want to tell you now\".\n3719, If Your Honor please, is eliminated.\nDR. BERGOLD:May it please the Tribunal, I would like to make a formal objection against the introduction of the exhibit number which was put in by tho Prosecution, namely, 41-A, for the following reason: the question here concerned is an interrogation of Mr. Sauckel who, due to the sentence which was passed against him by the first Tribunal was executed. I am of the opinion that such an interrogation should not be used as evidence here because due to the execution of Mr. Sauckel, I have no possibility whatsoever to ask him to appear here before the Tribunal as a witness and to cross-examine him in respect of this interrogation. In this statement, there are certain inaccuracies which cannot be corrected due to the fact that the person who made these statements, is dead. In the International Military Tribunal, the Tribunal often decided that statements made by witnesses and affidavits can only be introduced when there is the general possibility for the defense counsels to hoar those persons as witnesses, or to propose to the Prosecution, these people be brought in for cross-examination.", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 161, "page_number": "", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "All this is no longer possible in the case of Sauckel, and I would like to ask the Tribunal to make a decision whether these statements can be used as evidence.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Mr. Denney, we ill hear your argument on the objection alter the short intermission.\n(A recess was taken.)", "speakers": [ "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 162, "page_number": "136", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "THE PRESIDENT:I shall hear you, Mr. Denney, on the objection of Dr. Bergold.\nMR. DENNEY:Your Honor, please, in reference to Dr. Bergold's objection to the offer of Prosecution's Exhibit No. 41-A in evidence, being document No. 3721-PS, the interrogation of Fritz Sauckel, dated 22 September 1945, as we understand it, it is based on the grounds that the subject of the interrogation, Fritz Sauckel, due to his death, is not available for cross examination, therefore Article 19 of the Charter of the International Military Tribunal, which was adapted pursuant to the London agreement between the United States of America, originally, the government of the French Republic, the government of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, and the government of Union of Soviet Socialist Republics in the prosecution of major war criminals of Europe, provides as follows:\nThe Tribunal shall not be bound by technical rules of evidence. It shall adopt and apply to the greatest possible extent expeditious and non-technical procedure, and shall admit any evidence which it deems to have probative value.\nArticle 7, of ordinance number 7, promulgated by the office of Military Government of the United States for Germany, provides that the Tribunal shall not be bound by technical rules of evidence. They shall adopt and apply to the greatest possible extent expeditious and non-technical procedure, and shall admit any evidence which they deem to have probative value. Interrupting for a moment, that is adopted in toto from Article 19 with the exception of the change of the word \"they\" to include the tribunals for the word \"if\" which should refer to the International Tribunal, Article 7 continues without limiting the foregoing general rules, the following shall be deemed admissible if they appear to the Tribunal to contain information of probative value relating to the charges: affidavits, depositions, interrogations, and other statements, diaries, letters, records, findings, statements, and judgments of the military tribunals, and the reviewing and confirming authorities of any of the United Nations, and copies of any document or other secondary evidence of the contents of any document, if the original is not readily available or cannot be produced without delay.", "speakers": [ "MR. DENNEY", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 163, "page_number": "137", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "The Tribunal shall afford the opposing party such opportunity to question the authenticity, or probative value of such evidence as in the opinion of the Tribunal the ends of justice require.\nArticle 9 of the same ordinance No. 7 provides, the Tribunals shall not require proof of facts of common knowledge, but shall take judicial notice thereof. They shall also take judicial notice of official governmental documents and reports of the United Nations, including the acts and documents of the committees set up in the various Allied countries for the investigation of war crimes, and the records and findings of military or other tribunals of any of the United Nations.\nFirst, this document No. 3721-PS was admitted before the International Tribunal, and in addition I might add that it is purely within the power of the Tribunal to give such probative values as they deem a document merits. It is submitted in passing that we have offered in evidence in this case, and in other cases, statements equally important by men who are dead--Hitler, Himmler and many others.\nI am informed by counsel for the Prosecution trying the case of the United States against Karl Brandt, that that Tribunal has ruled this morning in the case of an affidavit of one Dr. Ding. The case is not in point with this, because this is an interrogation, but it is submitted at least partially on the subject that this affidavit given by Ding was sworn to before an American army officer. Ding is now dead, and counsel for the defense objected to the admission; the Prosecution urged its admission on the grounds which have been urged here and the court admitted the document.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Mr. Denney, do you know whether this statement, which was introduced before the International Military Tribunal was the subject of cross examination?\nMR. DENNEY:No, sir, I do not.", "speakers": [ "MR. DENNEY", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 164, "page_number": "138", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "MR. DENNEY:I can look at the record and at least make an effort to determine and advise Your Honor.\nJUDGE MUSSMANO:If it were the subject of inquiry before that Tribunal, it would seem that the objection made here by defense counsel would not have as much weight as if it had in merely as an uncommented upon document.\nMR. DENNEY:If Your Honor please, the Prosecution is going to have, at later dates, other interrogations and other affidavits by people who are now no longer living. It is respectfully submitted that the test of admissibility is not made on the ground of opportunity for cross-examination based on article VII of Law Number 10; not for a moment denying the fact that Your Honors have the right to reject or admit whatever you see fit. However, the very nature of these proceedings are such that documents turn up, interrogations and affidavits, and it is impossible to bring the affiants or the interrogatee before the Court either because of physical difficulties or because of the fact that he is no longer living and is submitted that these are admissible and worth so much probative value as Your Honors see fit to give than.\nTHE PRESIDENT:It is true, Mr. Denney, that when this affidavit was admitted before the International Military Tribunal, Sauckel was still alive.\nMR. DENNEY:Yes, sir.\nTHEPRESIDENT; So there was a possibility of cross-examination or of repudiation possibly. That is not at this moment. This may have nothing to do with your other points, but it seems to me to dispose of the point that that has been admitted under different circumstances before another Tribunal.\nJUDGE MUSSMANO:If there was any other repudiation, then certainly, Defense Counsel should bring that to our notice.\nTHE PRESIDENT:In view of the fact that the same point has been raised before Tribunal One. I think it would be well if this Tribunal reserves its decision on this objection for further consideration and also for a conference with Tribunal One so that we may be consistent and, we hope, correct.", "speakers": [ "THE PRESIDENT", "THE", "JUDGE MUSSMANO", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 165, "page_number": "139", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "MR. DENNEY:Would your Honors care to have a short memorandum on the sections involved for your own convenience?\nTHE PRESIDENT:We have those sections. We have access to them. We can pass this now.\nMR. DENNEY:Very well.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Was some disposition made of Document 031 PS?\nMR. DENNEY:We do not intend to offer Document 031 PS, if Your Honor please.\nThe next document is NumberL-159which we offer as Prosecution's Exhibit Number 44. It appears on Page 230, in Your Honors. Document Book, I believe you have a copy of that Dr. Bergold?\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes.\nMR. DENNEY:This is a report dated May 15, 1945, presented by Mr. Barkley of the Congress of the United States relative to atrocities and other conditions in concentration camps in Germany. The Committee was requested by the General of the Army, Dwight D. Eisenhower through the Chief of Staff General of the Army George C. Marshall to visit these camps.\nI turn now to page 235, Page 6 of the English original and refer to the second paragraph under the heading \"The Three Classes of Evidence Upon Which This Report is Based.\" It is two pages after the page where the Committee Members are listed.\n\"Three classes or kinds of evidence were presented to us. The first was visual inspection of the camps themselves, freshly freed of SS supervision by the American troops. We saw the barracks, the work places, the physical facilities for torture, degradation, and execution. We saw the victims, both dead and alive, the atrocities practiced at these camps. We saw the process of liquidation by starvation while it was still going on. We saw the indescribable filth and smelled the nauseating stench before it was cleaned up, and we saw a number of victims of this liquidation process actually die.", "speakers": [ "THE PRESIDENT", "DR. BERGOLD", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 166, "page_number": "", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "The second kind of evidence we obtained was the testimony of eye-witnesses among the prisoners themselves to these atrocities. Many of the prisoners had been in camps we visited as long as three to four years. Many others had spent long terms as prisoners in several other similar camps. While these prisoners included men from nearly all the -139-A. countries of central Europe, whose speech, whose station in life, and whose education and previous environment differed widely from one another, yet the testimony of all of these witnesses was substantially the same.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 167, "page_number": "140", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "Directly and through interpreters we talked to prisoners who had seen the hangings and the beatings and who had themselves experienced the systematic process of starvation, corporal punishment, and human degradation.\n\"The third kind of evidence was what may be called the common knowledge of the camp, that is to say, evidence of things done in the camp which were not done publicly but which, nevertheless, all prisoners were aware of. This is similar to certain knowledge possessed by prisoners generally in legitimate institutions like State penitentiaries. These prisoners, from custom and experience, from the conversation with the guards and among themselves, and from a very plain and almost mathematical kind of circumstantial evidence, have accurate knowledge of certain things which they have not actually seen with their own eyes.\n\"The prisoners at the camps speak about these things as though they had actually seen them. It was the unanimous opinion of our committee after talking to hundreds of prisoners that this third kind of evidence was often as accurate and reliable as the two kinds of direct evidence above referred to. An example of this kind of evidence will be found in that part of our report dealing with the torture chamber at Buchenwald, where no one actually saw the strangulations perpetrated in this chamber, but where the circumstantial evidence of it was so complete and clear as to leave no doubt in the mind of anyone.\"\nI am turning over to page 248, Part 3, the Conclusion. For the interpreters \"While the above three camps which were visited by the joint committee differed in some details, they were all of the same general pattern and design and administered for the same purpose.\n\"At each cf these camps we found four general classifications of prisoners: First, political prisoners; second, habitual criminals; third, conscientious or religious objectors; fourth, persons who were imprisoned for failure to work.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 168, "page_number": "", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "\"Although differing in size, they all carried into effect the same pattern of death by hard labor, starvation, hanging strangulation, 140 a disease, brutality, gas chambers, gallows, and filthy and unsanitary conditions, which meant inevitable death eventually to every imprisoned person.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 169, "page_number": "141", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "\"We found in each case, that the supervision of the camps was carried out by criminal tactics cf SS troops, who, in addition to their own brutality, assigned some of their punitive duties to the prisoners, especially the habitual criminals who had charge of the barracks in which all types of prisoners wore subject to their vicious and inhuman methods.\n\"We found that this entire program constituted a systematic form of torture, and death administer to intellectuals, political loaders, and all others who would not embrace and support the Nazi philosophy and program. We found the extent, devices, methods, and conditions of torture almost beyond the power of words to describe.\n\"We found, from all the evidence available, that in these craps the Jews and Russians and Poles wore treated with a greater degree of severity than other nationalities. No found that a colossal scheme of extermination was planned and put into effect against all those in occupied countries who refused to accept the principles of nazi-ism or who opposed the sadding of the Nazi yoke on their countries. The Nazi leadership in the pursuit of this policy found especially expedient the use of various forms of terrorism calculated to reduce the opposition and to render futile all efforts to threw off the yoke.\n\"The over-all pattern of the scheme varied but little. First, vast numbers of nationals of overrun countries were abducted and brought into Germany sometimes whole families, sometimes just the men. The number of these persons is variously estimated at between twelve and twenty million people. These poeple were forced to labor long; hours by their Nazi masters, and slight infractions they were place in concentration camps.\n\"Likewise, the intellegentsia, college professors, former army generals, business leaders, and professional men of the occupied countries, were taken captive and placed in these caps unless they agreed to spread the doctrines advocated by the Nazis.\n\"The treatment accorded to these prisoners in the concentration camps was generally as follows; They were herded together in some wooden barracks not large enough for one-tenth of their number.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 170, "page_number": "142", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "They were forced to sleep on wooden frames covered with wooden boards in tiers of two, three, and even four, sometimes with no covering, sometimes with a bundle of dirty rags serving both as pallet and coverlet.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 171, "page_number": "143", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "\"Their food consisted generally of about one-half a pound of black bread per dry and a bowl of watery soup for noon and night, and not always that. Owing to the great numbers crowded into a small space and to the lack of adequate sustenance, lice and vermin multiplied, disease became rampant, and those who did not soon die of disease or torture began the long, slow process of starvation. Notwithstanding the deliberate starvation program inflicted upon these prisoners by lack of adequate food, we found no evidence that the people of Germany as a whole were suffering from any lack of sufficient food or clothing. The contrast was so striking that the only conclusion which we could reach was that the starvation of the inmates of these camps was deliberate.\n\"Upon entrance into these camps, newcomers were forced to work either at an adjoining war factory or were placed \"in commando\" on various jobs in the vicinity, being returned each night to their stall in the barracks. Generally, a German criminal was placed in charge of each \"block\" or shed in which the prisoners slept. Periodically, he would choose the one prisoner of his block who seemed the most alert or intelligent or showed the most leadership qualities. These would report to the guards' room and would never be heard from again. The generally accepted belief of the prisoners was that these were shot or gassed or hanged and then cremated. A refusal to work or an infraction of the rules usually meant flogging and other types of torture, such as having the fingernails pulled out, and in each case usually ended in death after extensive suffering. The policies herein described constituted a calculated and diabolical program of planned torture and extermination on the part of those who were in control of the German Government. These camps, on the whole, were conducted and controlled by the SS and the Gestapo, who acted under orders from their superiors or who were given wide discretion in the methods which they were to adopt in perpetrating these hideous and inhuman sufferings.\n\"It is the opinion of your committee that these practices constituted no less than organized crime against civilization and humanity and that those who were responsible for them should have meted out to them swift, certain, and adequate punishment.\"", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 172, "page_number": "144", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "If Your Honor please, there is one document which is in Book Number 2, to which I would like to call your attention. I shall have to get my copies out before I can tell you which one it is. A speech by Himmler was omitted. We should like to offer it at this time.\nIf Your Honor please it was given Exhibit Number 44 at the time it was offered. Judge Dixon tells me that is correct. This document appears in Document Book Number 2A, Page 14. It is on Page 13 of the German Document Book. It is 1919-PS. And we offer this at this time as Prosecution Exhibit Number45. This is a speech given by Reichsfuehrer SS, Heinrich Himmler, at a meeting of the SS Major Generals (SS Gruppenfuehrer) at Posen, on October 4th 1943. The first part appears on Page 3, I believe, of the German original and is now on Page 13 of the German Document Book.\n\"The Russian Army was herded together in great pockets, ground down, taken prisoner. At that time we did not value the mass of humanity as we value it today, as raw material, as labor. What after all, thinking in eras of generations, is not to be regretted, but is now deplorable by reason of the loss of labor, is that the prisoners died in tens and hundreds of thousands of exhaustion and hunger.\"\nI will skip the next paragraph, and I go down to the next full one which I believe is one the same page of the Document Book, it is Page 23 of the initial speech.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 173, "page_number": "145", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "\"One basic principle must be the absolute rule for the SS man: We must be honest, decent, loyal, and comradely to members of our own blood and to nobody else. What happens to a Russian, to a Czech does not interest me in the slightest. What the nation can offer in the way of good blood of cur type, we will take, if necessary by kidnapping their children and raising them here with us. Whether nations live in prosperity or starve to death interests me only in so far as we need them as slaves for our Kultur; otherwise, it is of no importance to me. Whether 10,000 Russian females fall down from exhaustion while digging an anti-tank ditch interests me only insofar as the anti-tank ditch for Germany is finished. We shall never be rough and careless when it is not necessary, that is clear. We Germans, who are the only people in the world who have a decent attitude toward animals, will also assure a decent attitude towards those human animals. But it is a crime against our own blood to worry about them and give them ideals, thus causing our sons and grandsons to have a more difficult time with them. When somebody comes to me and says, \"I cannot dig the anti-tank ditch with women and children, it is inhuman, for it would kill them\" then I have to say, \"You are a murderer of your own blood because if the anti-tank ditch is not dug, German soldiers will die, and they are sons of German mothers. They are our own blood.\" That is what I want to instill into this SS and what I believe I have instilled into them as one of the most sacred laws of the future. Our concern, our duty, is our people and our blood. It is for them that we must provide and plan, work and fight, nothing else. We can be indifferent to anything else. I wish the SS to adopt this attitude to the problem of all foreign, non-Germanic peoples, especially Russians. All else is vain, fraud against our own nation and obstacles to the early winning of the war.\"\nNow, if Your Honor please, that concludes, with the exception of the reading of some transcript from the initial case into the record, the presentation of the general background on Slave Labor.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 174, "page_number": "146", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "In Book 2-A, Document NumberNO-1179; which appears on page 6, of your Honors' Document Book; starting with Page 16910 of the original opinion of the International Military Tribunal. We offer this as Exhibit Number 46. It is Pages 16910 to 16917. It goes from Pages 6 to 13 in Your Honors' Document Book.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 175, "page_number": "147", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "\"Slave Labor Policy \"Article 6 (section b) of the Charter provides that the \"ill treatment or deportation to slave labor or for any other purpose, of civilian population of or in occupied territory\" shall be a War Crime.\nThe laws relating to forced labor by the inhabitants of occupied territories are found in Article 52 of the Hague Convention, which provides:\n'Requisition in kind and services shall not be demanded from municipalities or inhabitants except for the needs of the army of occupation. They shall be in proportion to the resources of the country, and of such a nature as not to involve the inhabitants in the obligation of taking part in military operations against their own country.'\nThe policy of the German occupation authorities was in flagrant violation of the terms of this convention. Some idea of this policy may be gathered from the statement made by Hitler in a speech on November 9, 1941:\n'The territory which now works for us contains more than 250,000,000 men, but the territory which works indirectly for us includes now more than 350,000,000. In the measures in which it concerns German territory, the domain which we have taken under our administration, it is not doubtful that we shall succeed in harnessing the very last man to this work.\"\nThe actual results achieved were not so complete as this, but the German occupation authorities did succeed in forcing many of the inhabitants of the occupied territories to work for the German war effort, and in deporting at least 5,000,000 persons to Germany to serve German industry and agriculture.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 176, "page_number": "148", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "In the early stages of the war, manpower in the occupied territories was under the control of various occupation authorities, and the procedure varied from country to country. In all the occupied territories compulsory labor service was promptly instituted. Inhabitants of the occupied countries were conscripted and compelled to work in local occupations, to assist the German war economy. In many cases they were forced to work on German fortifications and military installations. As local supplies of raw materials and local industrial capacity became inadequate to meet the German requirements, the system of deporting laborers to Germany was put into force. By the middle of April 1940 compulsory deportation of laborers to Germany had been ordered in the Government General; and a similar procedure was followed in other eastern territories as they were occupied. A description of this compulsory deportation from Poland was given by Himmler. In an address to 68 officers he recalled how in weather 40 degrees below zero they had to \"haul away thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands.\" On a later occasion Himmler stated:\n'Whether ten thousand Russian females fall down foam exhaustion while digging an anti-tank ditch interests me only insofar as the anti-tank ditch for Germany is finished...We must realize that we have 6-7 million foreigners in Germany...They are none of them dangerous so long as we take severe measures at the merest trifles.'\nDuring the first two years of the German occupation of France, Belgium, Holland and Norway, however, an attempt was made to obtain the necessary workers on a voluntary basis. How unsuccessful this was may be seen from the report of the meeting of the Central Planning Board on the 1st of March 1944.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 177, "page_number": "", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "The representative of the defendant Speer, one Koehrl, speaking of the situation in France, said:\n'During all this time a great number of Frenchmen were recruited, and voluntarily went to Germany.'\n148 a He was interrupted by the defendant Sauckel:", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 178, "page_number": "149", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "'Not only voluntary, some were recruited forcibly.'\nTo which Koehrl replied:\n'The calling up started after the recruitment no longer yielded enough results.'\nTo which the defendant Sauckel replied:\n'Out of the five million workers who arrived in Germany, not even 200,000 came voluntarily.' and Koehrl rejoined:\n'Let us forget for the moment whether or not some slight pressure was used. Formally, at least, they were volunteers.'\nCommittees were set up to encourage recruiting, and a vigorous propaganda campaign was begun to induce workers to volunteer for service in Germany. This propaganda campaign included, for example, the promise that a prisoner of war world be returned for every laborer who volunteered to go to Germany. In some cases it was supplemented by withdrawing the ration cards of all laborers who refused to go to Germany, or by discharging them from their jobs and denying them unemployment benefit or an opportunity to work elsewhere. In some cases workers and their families were threatened with reprisals by the police if they refused to go to Germany. It was on the 21st of March 1942 that the defendant Sauckel was appointed Plenipotentiary-General for the Utilization of Labor, with authority over 'all available manpower, including that of workers recruited abroad, and of prisoners of war.'\nThe defendant Sauckel was directly under the defendant Goering as Commissioner of the Four Year Plan, and a Goering decree of the 27th March 1942 transferred all his authority over manpower to Sauckel. Sauckel's instructions, too, were that foreign labor should be recruited on a voluntary basis, but also provided that ' where, however, in the occupied territories, the appeal for volunteers does not suffice, obligatory service and drafting must under all circumstances be resorted to.' Rules requiring labor service in Germany were published in all the occupied territories.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 179, "page_number": "150", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "The number of laborers to be supplied was fixed by Sauckel, and the local authorities were instructed to meet these requirements by conscription if necessary. That conscription was the rule rather than the exception is shewn by the statement of Sauckel already quoted, on the 1st March 1944.\nThe defendant Sauckel frequently asserted that the workers belonging to foreign nations were treated humanely, and that the conditions in which they lived were good. But whatever the intention of Sauckel may have been, and however much he may have desired that foreign laborers should be treated humanely, the evidence before the Tribunal establishes the fact that the conscription of labor was accomplished in many cases by drastic and violent methods. The \"mistakes and blunders\" were on a very great scale. Manhunts took place in the streets, at motion picture houses, even at churches and at night in private houses. Houses were sometimes burnt down, and the families taken as hostages, practices which were described\" ........\nDR. BERGOLD:The continuation is missing. If the Counsel for Prosecution is continuing I have no objection because the verdict is known to me because I was present at the first trial and I am familiar with this document.\nMR. DENNEY:You are agreeable to let me continue reading it? I am sure if there are any errors I make his Honor will correct me.\nMR. BERGOLD:Yes", "speakers": [ "MR. BERGOLD", "DR. BERGOLD", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 180, "page_number": "151", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "MR.DENNEY: \"... practices which were described, by the defendant Rosenberg as having their origin 'in the blackest periods of the slave trade. ' The methods used in obtaining forced labor from the Ukraine appear from an order issued to SD officers which stated:\n'It will not be possible always to refrain from using force... When searching villages especially when it has been necessary to burn down a village, the whole population will be put at the disposed of the Commissioner by force... is a rule no more children will be shot... If we limit harsh measures through the above orders for the time being, it is only done for the following reasons... The most important thing is the recruitment of workers.'\nThe resources and needs of the occupied countries were completely disregarded in carrying out this policy. The treatment of the laborers was governed by Sauckel's instructions of the 20th April 1942 to the effect that:\n'All the men must be fed, sheltered and treated in such a way as to exploit them to the highest possible extent, at the lowest conceivable degree of expenditure.'\nThe evidence showed that workers destined for the Reich were sent under guard to Germany, often packed in trains without adequate heat, food, clothing or sanitary facilities. The evidence further showed that the treatment of the laborers in Germany in many cases was brutal and degrading. The evidence relating to the Krupp Works at Essen snowed that punishments of the most cruel kind were inflicted on the workers. Theoretically at least the workers were paid, mused and fed by the DAF, and even permitted to transfer their savings and to send mail and parcels back to their native country; but restrictive regulations took a proportion of the pay; the camps in which they were housed were insanitary; and the food was very often less than the minimum necessary to give the workers strength to do their jobs. In the case of Poles employed on farms in Germany, the employers were given authority to inflict corporal punishment and were ordered, if possible, to house them in stables, not in their own homes. They were subject to constant super vision by the Gestapo and the SS, and if they attempted to leave their jobs they were sent to correction camps or concentration camps.", "speakers": [ "MR." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 181, "page_number": "152", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "The concentration camps were also used to increase the supply of labor. Concentration camp commanders were ordered to work their prisoners to the limits of their physical power. During the latter stages of the war the concentration camps were so productive in certain types of work that the Gestapo was actually instructed to arrest certain classes of laborers so that they could be used in this way. Allied prisoners of war were also regarded as a possible source of labor. Pressure was exercised on non-commissioned officers to force them to consent to work, by transferring to disciplinary camps those who did not consent. Many of the prisoners of war were assigned to work directly related to military operations, in violation of Article 31 of the Geneva Convention. They were put to work in munition factories and even made to load bombers, to carry ammunition and to dig trenches, often under the most hazardous conditions. This condition applied particularly to the Soviet prisoners of war. On the 16th February 1943, at a meeting of the Central Planning Board, at which the defendants Sauckel and Speer were present, Milch said:\n'We have made a request for an order that a certain percentage of men in the Ack-Ack artillery must be Russians; 50,000 will be taken altogether. 30,000 are already employed as gunners. This is an amusing thing, that Russians must work the guns.'\nAnd on the 4th October 1943, at Posen, Himmler, speaking of the Russian prisoners, captured in the early days of the war, said:\n'At that time we did not value the mass of humanity as we value it today as raw material, as labor. What, after all, thinking in terms of generations, is not to be regretted, but is now deplorable by reason of the loss of labor, is that the prisoners died in tens of hundreds of thousands of exhaustion and hunger.'\nThe general policy underlying the mobilization of slave labor was dictated by Sauckel on the 20th April 1942. He said:\n'The aim of this new gigantic labor mobilization is to use all the 'rich and tremendous resources conquered and secured for us by our fighting armed forces under the leadership of Adolf Hitler, for the armament of the armed forces, and also for the nutrition of the Homeland.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 182, "page_number": "153", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "The raw materials, as well as the fertility of the conquered countries and their human labor power, are to be used completely and conscientiously to the profit of Germany and her Allies.... All prisoners of war from the territory of the West, as well as the East, actually in Germany, must be completely incorporated into the German armament and nutrition industries.... Consequently it is an immediate necessity to use the human reserves of the conquered Soviet territory to the fullest extent. Should we not succeed in obtaining the necessary amount of labor on a voluntary basis, we must immediately institute conscription or forced labor.... The complete employment of all prisoners of war, as well as the use of a gigantic number of new foreign workers, men and women, has become an indisputable necessity for the solution of the mobilization of the labor programme in this war.'\nReference should also be made to the policy which was in existence in Germany by the summer of 1940, under which all aged, insane, and incurable people, \"useless eaters,\" were transferred to special institutions where they were killed, and their relatives informed that they had died from natural causes. The victims were not confined to German citizens, but included foreign laborers, who were no longer able to work and were therefore useless to the German war machine. It has been estimated that at least some 275,000 people were killed in this manner in nursing homes, hospitals and asylums, which were under the jurisdiction of the defendant Frick, in his capacity as Minister of the Interior. How many foreign workers were included in this total it has been quite impossible to determine.\"\nTHE PRESIDENT:Mr. Denney, does this Exhibit come from the findings of the judgment of the International Military Tribunal? In other words, this is the Tribunal speaking?", "speakers": [ "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 183, "page_number": "154", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "MR. DENNEY:Pages 16910 to pages 16917 on tho record--but it is the decision in the conclusion of the trial at the time they returned their decision.\nNow, if your Honors please, I would like to offer an exhibit which appears in Book No. 2-A No.NO-1171which we offer as Prosecution Exhibit No. 47. This is excerpts from the Hague Convention 18 October 1907 and an annex to tho Geneva Convention 27 July 1929 which appears at pages 2 to 5 of your Honors' Document Book and has the same page in the German Document Book.", "speakers": [ "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 184, "page_number": "155", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "This will become Prosecution Exhibit 47, Annex to Hague Convention No. IV of 18 October 1907, embodying the regulations respecting the Laws and Customs of War on Land, Adopted by that Convention; Treaty Series Number 539; 35 Stat. 2295; Malloy Treaties, Vol. II, 2281.\n\"Article 4:\n\"Prisoners of war are in the power of the hostile Government, but not of the individuals or corps who capture them.\n\"They must be humanely treated.\n\"All their personal belongings, except arms, horses, and military papers, remain their property.\n\"Article 5:\n\"Prisoners of war may be interned in a town, fortress, camp, or other place, and bound not to go beyond certain fixed limits; but they cannot be confined except as an indispensable measure of safety and only while the circumstances which necessitate the measure continue to exist.\n\"Article 6:\n\"The State may utilize the labour of prisoners of war according to their rank and aptitude, officers excepted. The tasks shall not be excessive and shall have no connection with the operations of the war.\n\"Article 7:\n\"The Government into whose hands prisoners of war have fallen is charged with their maintenance.\n\"In the absence of a special agreement between the belligerents, prisoners of war shall be treated as regards board, lodging, and clothing on the same footing as the troops of the Government who captured them.\n\"Article 23:\n\"In addition to the prohibitions provided by special Conventions, it is especially forbidden**** \"(b) To kill or wound treacherously individuals belonging to the hostile nation or army.\n* * * \"(g) To destroy or seize the enemy's property, unless such destruction or seizure be imperatively demanded by the necessities of war.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 185, "page_number": "156", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "\"(h) To declare abolished, suspended, or inadmissible in a Court of law the rights and actions of the nationals of the hostile party.\n\"A belligerent is likewise forbidden to compel the nationals of the hostile party to take part in the operations of war directed against their own country, even if they were in the belligerent's service before the commencement of the war.\n\"Article 46:\n\"Family honour and rights, the lives of persons, and private property, as well as religious convictions and practices, must be respected.\n\"Private property cannot be confiscated.\n\"Article 52:\n\"Requisitions in kind and services shall not be demanded from municipalities or inhabitants except for the needs of the army of occupation. They shall be in proportion to the resources of the country, and of such a nature as not to involve the inhabitants in the obligation of taking part in military operations against their own country. * * *\" \"Annex to Geneva Convention of 27 July 1929; relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War; Treaty Series No. 846; 47 Stat.\n233; Treaties, etc., Between the U.S. and other Powers, 1923-1937, Vol. IV, 5224.\n\"Article 2:\n\"Prisoners of war are in the power of the hostile Power, but not of the individuals or corps who have captured them.\n\"They must at all times be humanely treated and protected, particularly against acts of violence, insults and public curiousity.\n\"Measures of reprisal against them are prohibited.\n\"Article 3:\n\"Prisoners of war have the right to have their person and their honor respected. Women shall be treated with all the regard due to their sex.\n\"Prisoners retain their full civil status.\n\"Article 4:\n\"The power detaining prisoners of war is bound to provide for their maintenance.* * * \"Article 6:\"All effects and objects of personal use -- except arms, horses, military equipment and military papers -- shall remain in the possession of prisoners of war, as well as metal helmets and gas masks.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 186, "page_number": "157", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "\"Money in the possession of prisoners may not be taken away from them except by order of an officer and after the amount is determined. A receipt shall be given. Money thus taken away shall be entered to the account of each prisoner.\n\"Identification documents, insignia of rank, decorations and objects of value may not be taken from prisoners.\n\"Article 10:\n\"Prisoners of war shall be lodged in buildings or in barracks affording all possible guarantees of hygiene and healthfulness.\n\"The quarters must be fully protected from dampness, sufficiently heated and lighted. All precautions must be taken against danger of fire.\n\"With regard to dormitories -- the total surface, minimum cubic amount of air, arrangement and material of bedding -- the conditions shall be the same as for the troops at base camps of the detaining Power.\n\"Article 13:\n\"Belligerents shall be bound to take all sanitary measures necessary to assure the cleanliness and healthfulness of camps and to prevent epidemics.\n\"Prisoners of war shall have at their disposal, day and night, installations conforming to sanitary rules and constantly maintained in a state of cleanliness.\n\"Furthermore, and without prejudice to baths and showers with which the camp shall be as well provided as possible, prisoners shall be furnished with a sufficient quantity of water for the care of their own bodily cleanliness.\n\"It shall be possible for them to take physical exercise and enjoy the open air.\n\"Article 31:\n\"Labor furnished by prisoners of war shall have no direct relation with war operations. It is especially prohibited to use prisoners for manufacturing and transporting arms or munitions of any kind, or for transporting material intended for combatant units.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 187, "page_number": "158", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "***\" Now, if Your Honors please, we will be concerned for sometime with Books Nos.\n3(a) and (b). We won't have anything in Book 2, (a), (b), and (c) for a while.\nI might say about these books that in 3 (a) appears the document 124, R-124. It is a series of meetings; that is, excerpts from meetings of the Central Planning Board. They are not in order. There are also included the minutes of some six Hitler conferences, and in one or two instances the Central Planning Board meetings may be notes which are the results of the meetings.\nThis first volume, which isR-124, appearing in Document Book No. 3(a), was presented in toto to the International Military Tribunal asR-124. For Dr. Bergold's information, because I know he remembers the document, the Book 3(a) is exactly the same. The reason that there are more pages is that some pages had to be re-typed. The stencils had been used so much that some pages had to be re-typed, and therefore it now contains 47 pages, instead of the initial 44 which it contained at the time that it was put in evidence in case Number 1, but the book is exactly the same, with that exception.\nIncidentally, this Document Book is numbered in English at the top of each page, if Your Honors will notice, 1 to 47, consecutively. Now, unfortunately, that is only maintained in volume (a). Volume (b) did not have that happen, and I will ask Your Honors at this time if they have put page numbers on the upper right hand corner of Volume (b).\nTHE PRESIDENT:There are page numbers at the lower right hand corner in Volume 3 (b).\nMR. DENNEY:Three (b), yes, sir. Does it start off, sir -- with what page?\nTHE PRESIDENT:Page 45.\nMR. DENNEY:Well, if Your Honor please, we will have to take those and re-number them because there are 47 pages in the first book, and they apparently did not correct them. I am very sorry. Perhaps we could adjourn now and, if I could take those books, we can correct them during the noon recess.", "speakers": [ "MR. DENNEY", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 188, "page_number": "159", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "THE PRESIDENT:I am talking now about Book 3 (a).\nMR. DENNEY:Yes, sir.\nTHE PRESIDENT:It is numbered up to Page 44, and then, following that, are two more pages, which would be 45 and 46.\nMR. DENNEY:And then 47 is the first page in 3 (b).\nTHE PRESIDENT:No, unfortunately 45 is the first page.\nMR. DENNEY:If we may have Your Honors' books, we will correct them at the noon recess. I am really sorry that this happened. Apparently they may have omitted some pages. I am not sure. Unfortunately we never see those before they are given to the Court. Today we got together with the interpreters and have given them the German pages throughout. It doesn't help Your Honors.\nSir, I would appreciate it very much if Your Honor would do that, because there should be 47 pages in the first book, I will check all of them and make sure that they are proper.\nTHE PRESIDENT:We will recess at this time and give you the opportunity of doing so.\n(A recess was taken until 1330 hours.)", "speakers": [ "MR. DENNEY", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 189, "page_number": "160", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "AFTERNOON SESSION\nTHE MARSHAL:Persons in the Court will arise.\nThe Tribunal is again in session.\nMR. DENNEY:If your Honor, please, Dr. Gergold hasn't returned as yet.\nTHE PRESIDENT:We will wait for him.\nIn the meanwhile, Mr. Denney, in the books 3-A. and 3-B, have they been properly paged?\nMR. DENNEY:If your Honor, please, they have been corrected. Because of a table which I have made out it was necessary to renumber the second book starting from Page 1, so that the pages appear as 3-A, 1 to 47, or 3-B, 1 to 41, and I shall try to guide Your Honor through the various pages as we go along. The pagination for the first book, I believe, has been placed in the upper right hand corner for your convenience, and that agrees with the small number which appears at the center of the page.\nThe reason that Page 22-A, in Book B appears is because of the fact that the affidavit by the interpreter was left out of one of the books, and hence it went along, 21, 22, and 23; and therefore when we came to numbering them in order that they would correspond with mine we gave your Honor page 22-A.\n(At this point Dr. Bergold entered the Courtroom.)\nTurning for a moment to Dr. Bergold's objection to the offer of the Sauckel interrogation this morning, which was Prosecution offer of the Document in evidence, 41-A, being P.S. 3721, the prosecution would like to stress at this time that, at the time the long No. 7 was written, and it was stated therein that interrogations were admissible, it certainly was within the knowledge of those propounding the law that certain defendants in Case No. 1 would shortly be dead, and it is respectfully submitted to the Court that Ordnance No. 7 after establishing the jurisdiction, then also proceeds to set forth the limitations, if any, on the receipt of evidence, and also to prescribe what shall be received.", "speakers": [ "THE PRESIDENT", "THE MARSHAL", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 190, "page_number": "", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "160a We respectfully urge the Court that the interrogation is admisible, subject to such probative value as the Court wants to give it.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 191, "page_number": "161", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "I would appreciate it if your Honor had that in mind when you confer with the other judges this afternoon.\nTHE PRESIDENT:What you say is true of any exhibit. The probative value is for judicial determination. You think the exhibit should be received and if worthless disregard it, but nevertheless receive it?\nMR. DENNEY:Yes, sir.\nWe come now to the part of the proof which places the defendant in the very center of the Slave Labor Program.\nWe have shown that from the outset of the war and prior thereto, he was thoroughly informed in the Nazi plan for total War, which contemplated fall use of all human and material resources within the homeland, and within the countries that were to be conquered. We will show he was active in the project which carried out this master plan. We will show the board exercised jurisdiction in the matter of procurement, allocation and use. He carried out the master plan for requisition, allocation and use of human raw material for the human war machine. These are words we will have occasion to repeat as we introduce the documents, - requisition, allocation and use.\nOur evidence will show that Milch, a member of the Central Planning Board, belonged to an organization which requisitioned, allocated, directed the supply of Slave Labor,--and here again we have another important word \"Delong\". He was one of two most essential men in the Planning Board that guided the decisions of that organization.", "speakers": [ "MR. DENNEY", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 192, "page_number": "", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "We will present to the Court excerpts from the minutes of some 12 meetings, and everyone of which Milch was present, starting with the first held in April 1942 and ending with the fifty-eighth held in May, 1944. Actually, he was at all but eight meetings, and we use the figure \"eight\" advisably. We are not sure, he may have been in some of those. There is no question that he was in everyone of these meetings which we introduce here. On occasions when Speer was not present Milch presided. We will show that he actively participated when the Central Planning Board was arriving at decisions with respect to the request, allocation and use of this labor.\n161a We will show he was active in the formulation of the announcement of decisions of the Central Planning Board.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 193, "page_number": "162", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "We will show the Board exercised jurisdiction in the matter of procurement, allocation and use of labor. Some of the labor in which it dealt was enforced in the occupied countries, some of them were prisoners of war and were allocated to occupations directly connected with the German War effort. Requisition, allocation, use, dominating voice, decisive influence, active participation, forced labor, illegal occupation, those are the words with which we are concerned, and these are the things with which he concerned himself.\nIn presenting this part of the case we decided a chronological presentation would be best suited for the Court. As I indicated earlier this morning the reason the exhibits are not in chronological order in the book is a matter of mechanics, when we were able to get some of them and when we were able to get some of them translated, plus the face the first 47 pages were all used in the first case, and it was found impossible to have them retyped, restenciled and rebound. Our proof and some of our remarks will be repetitive, but in this very repetition comes an accumulation which shows the extent of this defendant's involvement in the activities of this Board.\nNow, if your Honor, please we would like to offer all of Book 3-A and 3-B, as DocumentR 124, and we will refer to the various meetings and reports of meetings, Hitler's conferences, and so forth, by their pages as we go through them. There is nothing in these two books safe a Schieber letter with Statutes of the Central Planning Board, which appears on pages 1, 2 and 3 of Book B, which are other than meetings of the Central Planning Board, reports of meetings and Hitler conferences.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 194, "page_number": "", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "The Hitler conferences, are notes, there are some five of them.\nTHE PRESIDENT:This then is Exhibit 48?\nMR. DENNEY:Yes, Your Honor, please. This is offered as Prosecution Exhibit No.48. We respectfully suggest that we refer to them as 48-A and 48-B, if your Honor approves. 48-A being for No. 3-A, and 48-B for No. 3-B.\nI first direct your Honors' attention to Page 1 of book B, which is a letter by one Walter Schieber, dated Berlin, October 20, 1942. The Court's 162a attention is respectfully directed to the distribution which appears at the bottom of the page, \"The highest Reich authorities, The Reich protector The Governor General, The Executive authorities in the occupied territories\". The Reich protector, of course, refers to Bohemia, Moravia and the Governor General Poland, and \"d\" takes in everyone else that is acting in a capacity of an executive in an occupied territory.", "speakers": [ "MR. DENNEY", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 195, "page_number": "163", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "\"Enclosed I send for your information, statues of the Central Planning Board with the request to support the office of the \"Central Planning Board\" in every possible way in its work, and to direct, more particularly, your section chiefs and reporters to forward all information requested orally or by writing, in the shortest possible time. By this collaboration of your section chiefs and reporters, the building up of a larger machinery in the framework of the 'Central Planning Board' is to be avoided.\"", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 196, "page_number": "164", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "Turning then to page 2, \"STATUTES OF THE CENTRAL PLANNING BOARD.\" \"The Central Planning Board created by the Fuehrer and the Reichs Marschall in order to unify armament and war economy deals only with the decision of basic questions. Professional questions remain the task of the competent departments which in their fields remain responsible within the framework of the decisions made by the Central Planning Board.\n\"In order to have the conferences properly prepared and to have the execution of the decisions supervised, the Central Planning Board appoints an office. This office consists of the deputies appointed by each of three members of the Central Planning Board; one of these three deputies shall be appointed chief of the office.\n\"In accordance with the attached distribution of work the office appoints reporters. These reporters are at the disposal of all members of the Central Planning Board. The office appoints one reporter to keep the record.\n\"Office and reporters have to see to it, above all, and to draw the attention of the Central Planning Board, if necessary to the required measures, that:\n\"All decisive tasks of war economy are achieved quickly, without red-tape, and ruthlessly, by mutual adapting of all composing branches.\n\"All such work as is obviously without importance for winning the war, be discontinued.\n\"The office prepares the meetings of the Central Planning Board in such a manner that the members of the Central Planning Board have the agenda and the material of discussian 24 hours in advance. For this purpose the office conducts preliminary talks with the competent department, etc..", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 197, "page_number": "", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "\"On the strength of the record made by the reporter, the office sees to the execution of the decisions of the Central Planning Board by the competent agencies, and sees to it that the deadlines fixed are complied with.\n\"The members of the office keep the members of the Central Planning Board informed between the sessions.\n164a \"The distribution of work, dealing with incoming mail, etc.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 198, "page_number": "165", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "is arranged by the office itself. The members of the office sign \"By order\" of the Central Planning Board.\n\"Reporters have to keep in constant touch with the departments, with regard to the sectors of work they are in charge of. In the regular sittings of the office they report on the progress made and on the measures which are required for the carrying on of the war economy, especially for the increase in production, for other improvements in the supply with raw materials, and for necessary changes in distribution. They do the preliminary work for the meetings of the board (see also 5A) and in their working sector they are primarily responsible for the execution, within the established time limits, of the decisions of the Central Planning Board.\n\"Berlin, 20 October 1942.\n/s/ M i l c h (Typewritten) /s/ S p e e r (Typewritten) /s/ D o e r n e r (Typewritten)\" That should be \"Koerner (typewritten)\". We then turn to page 21 in Document Book 3-B. This is a first conference of the Central Planning Board; it's headed \"Berlin, 27 April 1942\". Page 3105 of the German original; what page in your document book I don't know.\nIf Your Honor please, while the interpreters are locking for this, I might add that all of these originals are not available at this time to hand the Secretary, Judge Dixon, the reason being that some of them are bound up and some of them will have to be taken from the record in Case I. However, before we are through, we will deposit the originals or photostatic copies of them with Judge Dixon, and, if that's agreeable to the Court and Dr. Bergold, we can proceed on that basis. Dr. Bergold has copies of everything that we have, both in English and German, and Your Honors have a complete copy.\n\"Present: The three members: Speer, Milch, and Koerner. Furthermore: State Secretary Dr. Schulz-Fielitz, Munitions Ministry and Minister von Bormann, from the Four Year Plan.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 199, "page_number": "", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "\"The Central Planning in the Four Years Plan (Decree of the Reich Marshal of Greater Germany of 22 April 1942) is a task for leaders. It encompasses only principles and executive matters. It makes unequivocal decisions and supervises the execution of its directives. The Central Planning does not rely on anonymous institutions, difficult to control, but always on individually and fully responsible persons who are free in the selection of their working methods and their collaborators, as far as there are no directives issued by the Central Planning.\" And then they go on to discuss the iron situation. I don't think that that needs to be read into the record. The next meeting with which we are concerned is the 11th meeting, which appears in \"B\" at pages 16 to 20 in the form of notes and in \"A\" at 41 and 42 in the form of a report.\nDr. Bergold, do you have, in Bock 3, notes on the 11th conference, Berlin, 24 July 1942?\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes, sir.\nMR. DENNEY:Reading, if Your Honor please, from the part in Book B, the notes - the meeting was held on the 22nd, the notes were prepared on the 24th. Noted present in the beginning were Speer, Milch, and Koerner. The five people present, including Director von Bohlen, were Roechling, Rohland, Dr. Langen, and Bergass. Also present were Gauleiter Sauckel, Plenipotentiary General for Labor, and then the last eight, members from the Reich Ministry of Armaments and Munitions.\nTurning over to page 14, the last paragraph on the page, it appears at 3060 in the German original, the page directly following the page from which we were just reading, page 17. \"Securing of food. A net influx of one million foreign workers is counted on.\" If Your Honor please, there was some typing on the exhibit which was in Dr. Bergold's book, which was made at the time the notes were originally translated into English, which have no part of the exhibit at all, and he was questioning as to whether or not they should be in English. They don't appear in the English: they have nothing to do with the case. They were just made for the convenience of the lawyers and translators using them at any prior date. 166 \"Securing of food.", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 200, "page_number": "167", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "A net influx of one million foreign workers is counted on. This number was not reached in the past months. Even with an influx of more than one million in the coming months, the one million peak will actually not be surpassed in view of current departures of workers. Food for this one million is secured.\n\"To what extent an improvement of the food situation, through a sharper hold on the production outside of Germany, could be accomplished.\"\nDR. BERGOLD:All the rest is missing in my document book, sir.\nMR. DENNEY:Isn't it on the next page?\nDR. BERGOLD:No, sir, it isn't.\nMR. DENNEY:Well, we'll have to pass this at this time and --\nTHE PRESIDENT:Mr. Denney, page 3061 is the original document also missing from our copies.\nMR. DENNEY:Yes, sir, they're just excerpts that we've taken here. These minutes are many pages long and we're just taking the parts that we think are pertinent to the Court. They do go from 3060 to 3062. We've omitted 3061.\nbeTHE PRESIDENT:Well, then the next page should/read at this time -\nMR. DENNEY:Yes, Your Honor.", "speakers": [ "THE PRESIDENT", "DR. BERGOLD", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 201, "page_number": "168", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "Well, we shall pass the eleventh meeting until such time as we can get Dr. Bergold the proper copy. We will turn to that at a later time.\nNow the next item to which we would like to direct Your Honors' attention is on page 37 of Book A, a Hitler conference, a memorandum by Speer dated 19 August 1942, a record of a conference with the Fuehrer on 10, 11, and 12 August 1942:\n\"Gauleiter Sauckel promises to make Russian labor available for the fulfillment of the iron and coal program and reports that, if required, he can supply a further million Russian laborers for the German armament industry up to and including October 1942. So far he has already supplied one million for the industry and 700,000 for agriculture. In this connection the Fuehrer states that the problem of providing labor can be solved in all cases and to any extent; he authorizes Gauleiter Sauckel to take all measures required.\n\"He would agree to any necessary compulsion in the East as well as in the West if this question could not be solved on a voluntary basis.\"\nOn the same page just below what has been read is another Fuehrer conference dated 29 September 1942, a memorandum prepared by Speer. The conference was held on September 20, 21, 22, 1942. Still on page 37 of Document Book 3-A which is Prosecution's Exhibit 48-A.\n\"I pointed out to the Fuehrer that, apart from an insignificant amount of work, no possibility exists of organizing armament production in the concentration camps because the machine tools required are missing; there are no suitable premises. Both these assets would be available in the armament industry if use would be made of them by a second shift.\n\"The Fuehrer agrees to my proposal that the numerous factories set up outside towns for ARP reasons should release their workers for supplementing the second shift in town factories and should in return be supplied with labor from the concentration camps - also two shifts.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 202, "page_number": "169", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "\"I pointed out to the Fuehrer the difficulties which I expect to encounter if Reichsfuehrer SS Himmler should be able, as he requests, to exercise authoritative influence over these factories. The Fuehrer, too, does not consider such an influence necessary.\n\"The Fuehrer, however, agrees that Reichsfuehrer SS Himmler should draw advantages from making his prisoners available; he should get equipment for his division.\n\"I suggest to give him a share in kind (war equipment) in ratio to the working hours done by his prisoners. A 3-5% share is discussed, the equipment also being calculated according to working hours. The Fuehrer would agree to such a solution.\n\"The Fuehrer is prepared to order the additional delivery of this equipment and weapons to the SS, according to a list submitted to him.\"\nAnd then going to the sixteenth meeting of the Central Planning Board which appears in Document Book B, pages 32 to 36.\nDR. BERGOLD:I ask the Tribunal to ask the representative of the prosecution to clarify which persons were present during that Fuehrer conference. I can't see that and I would appreciate it very much if I could possibly be told in what way these minutes pertain to the defendant.\nMR. DENNEY:Your Honor please, so far as I know, we, too, have been unable to find out who was present at this conference, and the first ones mentioned according to Speer's notes are conferences which he had with Hitler.", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 203, "page_number": "170", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "Speer was a member of the Board. Speer talked to the Fuehrer, and Speer sat with Milch when the Board met. There was one later conference of which we do have a note showing that Milch was present. We offer these for such value as the Court sees fit to give them again to case a light on the whole program.\nTurning now to page 32 in Document Book B, the sixteenth meeting that appears in Your Honors' book on page 31 as the eighteenth meeting, that should be the sixteenth. Page 31 which is just a face page. It says \"18\". It should say \"16\".\nTHE PRESIDENT:It has been corrected.\nMR. DENNEY:Thank you, sir. This was held on the 23rd of October 1942 in the Reich Ministry for Armament and Munitions. We start in the middle of a speech at page 32 by one Fischer. Speer is present and Milch is present.\n\"For if I lack 68,400 men in the Ruhr mining district alone, and if 140 skilled workers are taken away from me, as happened in the Dutch national mines, although I had definitely enjoined Bruch, do not let any skilled workers be taken away from the pits, and if the Organization Todt and the Wehrmacht simply take my men out of the Campino mines, out of the mines in Belgium, for the airports --\" and then Speer interjects, \"When did that happen?\" The reply: \"Last year.\"\n\"SPEER: These are the same old stories which we have already heard often enough. That does not do any good now. You will have to bring up something new. Were any of the workers you received through the new drive of Sauckel taken away from you? We must be informed of it.\n\"FISCHER: That is the case in Holland now. 140 have already been taken away and another 60 are to be taken away.\"\nI call Your Honor's attention to the fact that these men concern themselves with figures that are astronomical and even with numbers like \"60\".\n\"SPEER: Who took them away?", "speakers": [ "MR. DENNEY", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 204, "page_number": "171", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "\"PLEIGER: The Sauckel Labor Commitment.\n\"SPEER: Where did they go to?\n\"PLEIGER: To Cologne, Deutz, Humboldt.\n\"SPEER: What are they doing there?\n\"PLEIGER: They are supposed to be used in mining there. To this I replied that it was nonsense to take my men away from mining itself.\n\"SPEER: Today I gave several other like cases to Sauckel and said: if we do not insist on having everyone of these cases referred back to the Labor Office and in this way give them the work to do, we will not bring them to their senses. That is why pressure must be applied here, too, and we shall also order at Sauckel's that these 150 men return to you, man for man, and I should like to ask you to let us know in three to four weeks whether you have received all of them back. We shall make that clear directly ourselves.\n\"PLEIGER: That is not the only thing. For instance, 420 men in Upper Silesia, too. A transport of Russians started from Nikolojewsk to Rumania. We were simply told that a military order could not be opposed.\n\"MILCH: All I need is the case with names and documentary evidence.\"\nMilch taking care of the Army situation.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 205, "page_number": "172", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "\"SPEER: No. But you may include the Eastern workers, after all, so that you do not receive only prisoners of war. Before we take German workers from the sector of the rest of the economy, the planning must first be finished so that one may know what results it will have on industry. I believe, however, that the German workers in mining industry would turn out to be a failure if they would come from the textile industry, for instance, or from elsewhere.\n\"(Interjection: Quarry men.)\"\nDR. BERGOLD:My copy here is missing. The Milch statement.\nMR. DENNEY:If Your Honor please, in the German copy Dr. Bergold has, the original statement of Field Marshal Milch is missing, but here is a photostatic copy of the original which we showed him with the statement in it.\n\"SPEER: No. But you may include the Eastern workers, after all, so that you do not receive only prisoners of war. Before we take German workers from the sector of the rest of the economy, the planning must first be finished so that one may know what results it will have on industry. I believe, however, that the German workers in mining industry would turn out to be a failure if they would come from the textile industry, for instance, or from elsewhere.\n\"(Interjection: Quarry men.)\n\"Yes, it is true that at one time many men went over to the stone industry from the mining industry. Could not a list be made sometime of the workers who used to be in mining industry? Could not a list be made sometime of the workers who used to be in mining industry and who now gad about elsewhere?", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 206, "page_number": "173", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "\"PLEIGER: Such lists can be made only with a total figure only but not itemized. It would already help us if we could get only a few hundred.\n\"SPEER: From the quarries you can get all of them.\n\"(Interjection: Only old men are left there.)\nPleiger continues:\n\"Three-quarters of a year ago I made available all quarrymen for any use the labor commitment might choose. They are still working in Himmler's concentration camp Mauthausen. Pleiger, maybe you can have it established sometime how many men there are in the quarry of Mauthausen.\n\"PLEIGER: I have already looked them over. I cannot use them for hard coal mining; I cannot work them there. I had made an agreement with Himmler that he would take over one pit but it cannot be done. It is too dangerous with those people. It would have a psychologically negative effect if we would start with prisoners there. Even with civilian prisoners the situation is difficult.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 207, "page_number": "174", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "The next meeting is the 17th which appears at A-42 through 45 and B-7 is the facing page, and 8 and 9. Dr. Bergold has pages 42, 43, 44 and 45 of Book A and there are 7,8 and 9 of Book B. Now on Page 44 of Book A, Hildebrand is talking again there, speaking of requirements for the increase of coal production:\n\"Our promises were made on the basis of the 150,000 prisoners of war whom Field Marshal Keitel had promised us for this purpose. Of these, 60,000 are still missing. Several departments are passing the buck in this matter. General Wagner, the chief of supply, called on me and told me they could not supply them now and wanted time until January. They are now promised for the beginning of December.\n\"As for the quality of the new incoming transports, apparently a weeding out takes place already in the East. The good workers among the prisoners of war are kept back and only those of inferior quality are passed on so that I cannot estimate the value of these 60,000 as high. I think we shall be able to use hardly 60% in mining.\n\"There are, furthermore, 15,000 men in the prisoner of war camps in the General Government. They are all right and will come as soon as the 30,000 have been expedited. Gauleiter Sauckel promised Mr. Pleigel for the coal industry, 10,000 civilian Russians who would be freed by redirections of labor in agriculture. This was discussed yesterday with Dr. Fischer. Their 10,000 men, we think, will be at the disposal of the coal industry in about a fortnight. The total will, therefore, be 115,000. We have, however, to allow for certain reductions according to the physical conditions of the men.\n\"The recruiting of suitable civilian workers over there is very much hampered because we were repeatedly told that our recruiting personnel should give up the whole department Staline or the DonDonetz area because the men there were all needed. Then a small number of workers from the East would remain\" -- Is that as far as your book goes, Dr. Bergold?", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 208, "page_number": "", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "DR. BERGOLD:Yes, sir. One page is missing, 1234.\nMR. DENNEY:We don't have 1234 in it. We have 1232, 1233 and 1235.\n174 a However, we shall leave that out at this time and direct the Court's attention to Page 42 and 43 which is a summary of the results of the 17th meeting of the Central Planning prepared on the 30 October 1942, on the meeting of the 28th; and the distribution which appears on Page 43, the second name which appears is Generalfieldmarshall Milch.", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 209, "page_number": "175", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "And then turning to that part of the 17th meeting which appears in Document Book B at page 9, which is another part of the stenographic transcript of these minutes. On page 1265 of the German original, I believe, a man named Winkhaus, W-I-N-K-H-A-U-S, speaking at the top of the page -- It should be on page 9, on page 111 of the German transcript, I am told, a man named Winkhaus, speaking at the top:\n\"The issue at stake here is not in our dealings with labor offices and building contractors, but rather we touch with our feeder industry many districts, where there is no mining industry and in such places it has not become known yet that the mining industry is an essential part of the armament industry. This should, on some occasion, be brought to the attention of all competent offices.\" And then Speer goes on to say:\n\"I am doing that any way. The Central Planning is issuing equal worded directives to all armament inspections, regional labor and economy offices which say in effect: the shoe pinches mostly here at the time and now especially in the mining industry.\"\nThe next meeting is the 21st Meeting. It appears at Pages 45 through 47 of the Book A and pages 23 to 27 of Book B. Directing our attention for the moment to the section in Book B which starts on page 23, Your Honors can see from the entry on Page 47 of Book A that General Field Marshall Milch is listed as having been present at the meeting which was held on 30 October 1942, at the Reich Ministry for Armament and Munitions. It's on Page 125 of the German Translation. Sauckel is speaking:\n\"There is but one possibility, and that is that the moment the Wehrmacht takes prisoners in operational territory, they are to be immediately turned over to us.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 210, "page_number": "", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "We will move them away much faster then the Wehrmacht.\" Here, of 175 a course, Sauckel is making an improper proposal -- the taking over of all prisoners of war by his Plenipotentiary General for Labor -something that clearly violates the laws of war.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 211, "page_number": "176", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "\"Milch: The correct thing to do would be to have all Stalags transferred to you by order of the Fuehrer. The Wehrmacht takes prisoners and as soon as it relinquishes them, the first delivery goes to your organization. Then everything will be in order.\n\"Sauckel: Yes, but we do not have sufficient personnel for guarding the prisoners.\n\"Milch: The Wehrmacht should have to provide you with that.\"\nThen Sauckel continues: \"As soon as prisoners of war are taken, they should be placed at our disposal and we would then allocate them in a fair manner. However, with the present method, we are getting nothing or only a fraction of what the Wehrmacht had promised us, although the prisoners had been taken by the Wehrmacht.\n\"Timm: We can hardly hope to achieve that, since this might have something to do with the agreement concerning the treatment of prisoners of war.\" That has to be mentioned by a civilian. The Field Marshal is sitting there and doesn't call it to anyone's attention.\n\"Milch: The man who acts there for you can wear a uniform all right and be a soldier. Only his superior will not be Herr Reinecke, General Reinecke in charge of prisoners of war of the Oberkommando Wehrmacht, but Herr Sauckel.\n\"For psychological reasons, emphasis should be placed on first of all covering the requirements of the Wehrmacht branches without other considerations. The feeling -- we don't get it anyway -- has gradually permeated our whole air force industry, and I heard the same about the Army. I will admit that these gigantic allocations are completely misjudged. For example in the Luftwaffe where from an original allocation of 480,000 a balance of 150,000 was left over.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 212, "page_number": "", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "The plants always look at the balance. However, there are many plants also who have suffered an actual decrease in manpower, especially 176a in a young industry like ours, which is occupied with the manufacture of very special products.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 213, "page_number": "177", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "This industry has many young people, of whom many again have been drafted into the Wehrmacht. This drafting is done in such an idiotic way, that one actually has to feel ashamed -- all three experimenting engineers working on a development which may have an important bearing on the outcome of the war are simply drafted.\nThey are not sent to the front or into training but sit around in the back somewhere and are guarding some camp. No consideration whatsoever is given to individual cases. Of course, the plants then call for replacements. The masses cannot fill these breaches and qualified replacements we cannot supply at all. Herr Dr. Werner, for example, writes a letter to Herr Schieber of which he forwards a copy to me and which states that production figures established in the delivery schedules can no longer be met owing to the fact that for weeks, partially even for months, no manpower has been allocated and that even current withdrawals cannot be replaced by the labor offices. The fact that we can no longer meet the demands of the rising production, the backlogs are increasing more and more, fills him with rising apprehension.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 214, "page_number": "178", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "He then goes into details, but always reverts to the same conclusion; everything might be accomplished, we could even get the necessary material; in the final analysis we fail, however, in one important aspect in connection with our whole armament program, the allocation of manpower. If only we had - if only we had, thus it goes all day and in every conference.\nI am convinced that many people are beginning to put in fake requests and exaggerate their requirements. There is only one way to straighten out this affair. In my department I do it this way; (and what is Milch's Department; the Luftwaffe). If for months a spare part cannot be found, the entire front begins to heard this article, say, for instance the tail skid of a JU 52. Then we proceeded to manufacture triple the amount of the expected requirements, yet, no tail skeds were available. Ordinance stock piles were filled with it, but they did not issue any. I then said: \"We will now manufacture nothing but tail skids until we hear shouts not to send any more.\" Thus, an affair like that gets finally straightened out. And here likewise we must say for once, we will supply the required laborers to the industry, if necessary by depriving other fields. Agriculture at the moment can spare laborers; it does not need them from 15 November to 15 March of next year. It is just a waste to have to feed them. Only a small number will be needed for the procurement of wood. Thus we are able to generously help industry, and later on again replenish agriculture. At the same time we have the advantage of getting fairly well fed people.\nAs Herr Timm recently explained, prisoners of war from the Ukraine would not serve our purpose. They could not regain their physical strength on what they get to eat in the industry.\nEven supplying them with better food then we give to our own people would not be sufficient to get them beyond a still weakened condition. In agriculture they get additional food. Don't muzzle the mouth of a beast when food lies all around it. This is also of advantage to prisoners of war, and workers from the East.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 215, "page_number": "", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "However, we have to finally do away with the general feeling. We have 178a nothing and we want yet anything.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 216, "page_number": "179", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "We have been forsaken by God and the Fuehrer constantly more and more is demanded of us; how can we still believe in this great program? We can only carry it out if we have such faith in it, as is spoken of in the Bible.\nIn January we started with a monthly production of 2,000 meters; today we have reached 4,000, and in a year and a half I must reach 14,000. That, of course, is a gigantic achievement for a month. Every motor has at least 1,200 h.p. If in measurements of horse power I compare the present with the former world-war, then the present achievement is forty times as great. What an immense amount of manpower was then available at that time for an industry so totaly different from ours.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Mr. Denney, the court will recess for five minutes. I believe I told you we are to adjourn at 3:30.\nMR. DENNEY:Yes, Your Honor.", "speakers": [ "MR. DENNEY", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 217, "page_number": "180", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "MR. DENNEY:If your Honors please, during the recess we were able to find the page 1059 in German and showed it to Dr. Bergold, and he is willing that we continue with the reading of Field Marshal Milch's remarks made at the 21st meeting. We continue with your Honors' Document Book, page 26 of Book B.\n\"What an immense amount of manpower was available at that time for an industry so totally different from ours. Yet today we must come up to more than three times that, which we have already done. That means, that in airplane motors alone we have to achieve 135 to 140 times as much as we did in the world war. Dr. Werner, who is responsible for the motor industry proposed how this can be done. He said: We must apply a mass production scale everywhere, or else we will not accomplish it. He has very progressive ideas in this field. With the airplane motor it can be done for sure. Crank-shafts and connecting rods, etc., we can produce on a mass production scale. Today we manufacture 40,000 connecting rods. However, we still have no machines today that assemble these products individually on the assembly line. The Americans have such machines. We are lacking about 10 construction engineers and 5 mechanics; they just simply cannot be procured. One must for once satisfy the needs of the people again. I have always put them off until November and told them, that Sauckel would produce the necessary labor from agriculture.\"\nAnd, as I pointed out to the Court before, the parts on pages 46 and 47 of the Book A are the results prepared by one, Dr. Stettler, and I don't think they need to be mentioned at this time. It is worthy of note that the defendant indicates on page 1058 that the only reason he turned down prisoners of war was because they weren't fit.\nThe next meeting is the 22nd which appears in part on pages 28, 29 and 30, Document Book B, and there is also an excerpt on page of Document Book A. The defendant was present at this meeting.", "speakers": [ "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 218, "page_number": "181", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "At the excerpt from this 22nd meeting which was held on 2 November 1942, which appears on page 30, Document Book A, the defendant speaking:\n\"Milch: I believe that agriculture must get its labor quota. Assuming that we could have given agriculture 100,000 more men we would new have 100,000 more men who would be more or less well fed, while actually the human material which we received generally, above all the prisoners of war are not in good enough condition for work.\"\nTHE PRESIDENT:What page are you reading from Mr. Denney? You said 30, but I don't find it on that page.\nMR. DENNEY:It should be on page 30 of Document Book A, sir.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Wrong book.\nMR. DENNEY:Short excerpt appearing at the top. I believe that is only half a page in your Honors' book.\nThen on page 29, Document Book B, Speer starts, on page 129 of the German.\n\"We agreed at the last meeting how the 500,000 workers who are necessary for the armament Industry and the industrial War Economy are to be apportioned but would like to have Thimm estimate how the 100,000 workers, who would remain, are to be apportioned.\n\"Sauckel: The balance has however become considerably worse. For a present possibility of making 600,000 workers available in November, there is an estimated inquiry for 732,000, including the demands for mining, pitprops, coal trade, transportation, Reich Railway, Reich Mails, forestry, fireproof industry, agricultural machinery, merchant shipbuilding, machinery for provisions, inland navigation, women helpers for aviation reports, war production program, requirement for repairs of bombing damages.\n\"Speer: Are our 500,000 included?", "speakers": [ "MR. DENNEY", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 219, "page_number": "182", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "\"Sauckel: (continued) There are included 481,800 and namely urgent 441,000 - basic industry with assignments 124,000, halffinished products 16,000, delivery 48,000, tool industry subdivided army 50,000, air 40,000 with the addition of 30,000 called up. Haven't the callings up been taken with consideration by the plants?\n\"Brueckner: No, they are not included.\n\"Sauckel continues: Generally the number called up is not higher than usual, about 100,000.\n\"Milch: We must make up for not having called up sooner. (add the drawings in) \"Sauckel continues:\nNavy further 32,000, other requirements 45,000, construction 75,000, total 441,000.\nThe red ticket drives are included with 72,000. Should we however use up the 72,000 red tickets, then we must employ as many additional workers who should be taken into account, that we should like to suggest another procedure. Should we allot you 100 percent, thus altogether with the red ticket men supplied with an addition and then those called up, the normal fluctuation and so forth, then you arrive exactly at the same result. We evade the powerful bureaucracy which is connected with it when we fill out 70,000 rod tickets, advise and must mail and then wait again in order to register them, sort out, and so forth. We have very few people available in our offices.\n\"Schieber: The 70,000 red tickets will be divided among 5 to 6 thousand firms.\n\"Thimm: There will probably be many more firms. At Schrott there are for instance plants with 6 to 7 peoples. It indicates naturally a tidy bureaucratic expanse, when one has to send and return forms for these few people.\n\"Speer: It can be done in such a way that we give the red tickets direct to the plants and the plants inform us when they have received the people.\"", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 220, "page_number": "183", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "I direct the Court's attention to the fact that these men were even concerned with plants that employed only six or seven people.\nThe next meeting is the 23rd which appears in Book B at pages 5 and 6 and also Book A at page 30 -- no -- I withdraw that. That's been taken out, your Honors. That was the bottom half of page 30 and it has been removed because it is all set forth in pages 4 and 5 of Document Bock B. This is the 23rd conference and a partial extract of the stenographic minutes dated 3 November, 1942. Pleiger is speaking at the start, top of page 5, Look B.\n\"For the physical strain on the miners, who practically work two Sunday shifts each month, is such, that they could not stand it for another six months. In other words -- this is the important point -- the still lacking workers quota of 95,600 men must be assigned to work now at last, which was promised to me at one time. The gentlemen of the Ruhr tell me: we have our huts ready. Some of them are not completely furnished, and I reproached the people for it. They answered however: but you promised us workers for about half a year. We have always been ahead with our huts. How can you reproach us now, our huts were not ready. The workers assigned to us will be taken care of. I would be very thankful, if Sauckel would be induced to assign to us the quota of workers.\n\"Speer: He received the instruction in the last session of the Central Planning to assign workers first of all to the coal mining industry as well as to the iron producing industry, for you the amount of 44,000 plus 12,000 plus 7,500 for the feeder industry plus 5,000 for pit props. The same holds true fer Mr. Rohland.\n\"Pleiger: In our conferences it must always be taken as a basis, that the Reichsbahn with regard to the allocation of wagons is at least in the same position as they were last year.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 221, "page_number": "184", "date": "08 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-08", "text": "\"Speer: That's pretty bad.\n\"Pleiger continues: No, it allocated over 80,000 wagons in December.\n\"Speer: However, it was already at that time gigantic....\"\nThen we continue on page 1024. They arc talking about a kind of specialized worker.\n\"Speer: Can you give me by name any smelters or other people which could be taken out?\n\"Rohland: Yes.\"\nThis would still be another 50 or 100, I guess.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 222, "page_number": "185", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "MR. DENNEY:Then we deduct on page 1024 they are now talking about certain types of specialized workers, smelters.\n\"Rohland: I figure about 40 men per Martin furnace. If we take away 20 or 15 -- let's say 20 -- as trained Martin-furnace smelters, we would have 300 men. 300 smelters could help us a lot. But when will they come?\nSpeer: Then we could deceive the French about the industry in such a way, as if we would release as prisoners of war the rollers and smelters -- they have if they give us their names.\nRohland: We opened our own office in Paris. In other words you mean, the French should report the smelters who are prisoners of war in German?\nMilch: I would simply say: you will get two people for one of this kind.\nSpeer: The French firms know exactly, who is a smelter among the prisoners of war. There you should make it appear, as if they would be released. They give us the names and then we take them out. Try it.\nRohland: That's an idea.\nMilch: We in the Laftwaffe and airplane-industry will also try to find out; who is a roller, smelter or furnace mason.\nRohland: But by the time the people arrive the quarter will be over.\"\nHere we have these men that are in bad shape for smelters. So, what do they do? Sitting around try to figure cut about their labor. They say, \"Let's ask the French to give us the names of the prisoners of war, who are French prisoners, who are smelters, be will indicate to them that we are going to release them to go back to work in the French economy.\" Filch says, \"No, just tell them you will give \"them two for one of this kind.\" What do they plan to do-- they give the names of smelters, and then put them out to work in smelting factories for Germany.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:Do you know whether any attempt was made then to supply France with two others?\nMR. DENNEY:No, your Honors, I have no information about that.\nThe 32nd meeting we have here -- B 10 and 12, but I don't think there is anything of importance to be read there.", "speakers": [ "MR. DENNEY", "JUDGE MUSMANNO" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 223, "page_number": "186", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "We go now to the 33rd meeting. The meeting is in A, 31 to 35, and also appears in B, 13 to 15, as the results. It is 62 and 63 of the German Book for interpreters. This is a meeting concerning labor supply February 16, 1943 at the Reich Ministry for Armament and Munitions. \"Thimm: I should like to say something about tho labor supply possibilities. Perhaps you will permit me to emphasize the negative side a little. The greatest difficulties result from the fact that the supply of labor outstanding could not be fully dispatched from the East, but came in ever diminishing numbers. One may say that they have almost become completely exhausted. Eastern laborers during the last six weeks arrived only in smaller numbers than in former times, so that they can hardly be included to an appreciable amount on the credit side of the supply account. In any case their numbers are small. The foremost reason is that in former months most transports were dispatched from the Ukraine while the main recruitment areas were these which in the meantime had become operational areas, or even were no longer in our hands. The forecasts we made applied to a large extent to the transport of people from the Caucasus district, to Juban, from areas like parod measures which should enable us to draw more Eastern workers again during the following months. I venture to think that we should be able, on a conservative calculation, to transfer during tho month of March between 150,000 and 200,000 laborers from the east to the West.\"\nSpeer interjects: \"Including or excluding those needed for agriculture. But in my opinion, sending those needed for agriculture it will be necessary to apply much pressure, since just these districts are concerned which have been pacified to a certain extent, and for the same reason will not be very much inclined to release labor.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 224, "page_number": "", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "This is calculated on the assumption that some labor has to be released also from the eastern and northern parts of the East.\nThe second area, capable of releasing a considerable amount of labor is the General Government, and that for the January estimate which has been drawn up with particular caution as I again wish to emphasize. We expect that the figures will rather be surpassed than not reached. I think we can expect a number of 40,000 of which it is true, a part will have to be given to 186a agriculture, if we intend no more than to cover the losses which we had to inflict last autumn.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 225, "page_number": "187", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "Beyond this it ought to be possible in my opinion, to imply within the Reich, and especially for the mining industry, part of the polish Building Service. I venture to think one ought to enlarge this organization in such a way that more age groups than so far are called up for it. since this procedure is functioning. The younger age groups which in fact are especially suited for mining could be dispatched to the Reich. In this case the supervisors who are provided for the greatest part by the Building Service, will be needed only in very small numbers in the Reich.\nThe next area would be the Protectorate on which I cannot make a final statement today. We have promised for the month of March about 10,000 laborers. But I am of the opinion that some loosening-up is possible. The Commissioner will seen in a personal visit take in hand the possibility of this loosening-up.\nFrance is included in the account with 100,000 laborers for March. Messages which I received permit us to hope that this number will be increased in the middle of March. Belgium is included with 40,000, Holland with 30,000, Slovakia with 20,000 who, it is true, are exclusively suited for agriculture, since their share of individual workers has been completely delivered. This item consists exclusively of agricultural laborers, owing to a State treaty. For the remaining part of the foreign areas I included another 10,000. This amounts altogether to 400,000 laborers who should arrive in March. One might be entitled to add for the last month altogether 10,000 prisoners of war.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 226, "page_number": "", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "These are non to be drawn from the East. It can be expected that this number might under certain conditions be surpassed, since the High Command intends especially for operational reasons, to take the prisoners of war back to the Reich, particularly from the areas threatened by the enemy. A former item concerns the fluctuation of labor which certainly amounts to about 100,000 laborers. Then there are items which at the moment cannot be estimated; the yield from the threatened areas and from the \"Stoppage 187a action\". Here I cannot venture to name final figures, but I hope to be able to do so next month.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 227, "page_number": "188", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "Sauckel: Of course we regret very much that last autumn we were unable to recruit as much as we would have liked in the areas which now are again in enemy hands. This is partly due to the fact we were not assisted in the degree we had expected. Moreover we were not able to effect the removal of the civil population which had been planned. These events are an urgent reminder of the fact that it is necessary to employ foreign laborers at once and in great numbers in Germany proper and in the actual armaments industry. You may be certain what we wish to achieve this. We have not the slightest interest in creating difficulties for the armaments office, even for those working for German interest abroad, by taking labor away from them to an unreasenable extent. But on this occasion I should like to ask you to try and understand our procedure. We Germans surely have sent to front between 50 and 75 of our skilled workers. A part of them has been killed while the nations subjugated by us need no longer shed thed their blood. Thus they can preserve their entire capacity with regard to skilled workers, Inasmuch as they have not been transferred to Germany which is the ease only for a much smaller percentage than all of us supposed, and in fact they do use them partly for manufacturing things which are not in the least important for German war economy. If we proceed energetically against this abuse, I ask you to give me credit for so much reason that I do not intend to damage the foreign interests of the German armaments Industry. The quality of the foreign worker is such that it cannot be compared with that of the German worker. But even then I intend to create a similar proportion between skilled and workers trained for their job, as it exists in Germany by force of tradition, since it has come about that we had to send men to the front in much larger numbers than we requested France or any other country to do.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 228, "page_number": "", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "Moreover no shall endeavor increasingly to bring about on a generous scale the adaptation of the French, Polish, and Czech workers. I do not see for the moment any necessity for limiting the use of foreign labor. The only thing I ask is that we understand each other, so that the immense difficulties and friction between the 188a respective authorities disappear and the program drawn up by us will by no means be frustrated by such things.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 229, "page_number": "189", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "There are without a doubt still enough men in France, Holland, Belgium, the protectorate, and the General Govern ment to meet our labor demands for the next months. I confess that I except more success from such a procedure with respect to heavier work or for work where shifts of 10 or more hours are customary, than from relying on the use of German women and men exclusively. We shall have better success by proceeding this way provided the foreign workers still obey, which remains a risk we always run, than by using weaker German women and girls as labor in places of very important armament work, where foreigners may be used for security reasons......\nThe situation in France is this; after I and my assistants had succeeded after difficult discussions in inducing Laval to introduce the Service Act this act has now been enlarged, owing to our pressure so that already yesterday three French ago groups have been called up. We are now therefore legally and with the assistance of the French government entitled to recruit laborers in France from three age groups, whom we can use in French factories in the future, but of whom we may choose some for our use in Germany and send them to Germany. I think in France the ice is now broken. According to reports received they now have begun to think about a possible breakthrough by the Bolcheviks and the dangers which thereby threaten Europe. The resistance which the French Government has hitherto shown, is diminishing. Within the next days I shall go to France in order to set the whole thing in motion, so that tho losses in the East may be some what balanced by increas ing recruitment and calling-up in France.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 230, "page_number": "", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "If we receive comprehensive lists in time, we shall, I think, be able to cover all demands by dispatching in March 800,000 laborers.\nSpeer: Recruitment abroad as such is supported by us. We only fear very much that the skilled workers extracted from the occupied countries do not always reach the appropriate factories in Germany. It might certainly be better if we acted in such a way that the parent firms of Germany which work 189a with the French and Czech factories would comb out the foreign works more than before for their own use.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 231, "page_number": "190", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "Sauckel: We made an agreement with Field Marshal Milch. You will get the factories which are urgently needed for your airplane motors, etc; these will be completely safeguarded. In the same way I promised Admiral of the Fleet Doenitz today that U-boat repair firms proper are absolutely safeguarded. We shall even be able to provide our own armament factories on French soil with labor extracted from French factories, in the main from the unoccupied territory where there still are metal workers which have their full complement of skilled workers without even having been touched so far.\nHildebrandt: May I point out at this point that we have to put up with the loss of the Italian workers this year. This according to present discussions, concerns 300,000 men altogether, or 15 to 20,000 a month. If we deduct the first installment, the remaining ones to a great part are just highly skilled metal workers.\nSauckel: This is a request of the Fuehrer, but he had not yet finally decided.\nHildebrandt: But we have been told to be prepared to lose those men.\nSpeer: We ourselves quite support the combing-out abroad. On the other hand we must be entitled -- and this was agreed -- to exclude or prefer particular kinds of work, e.g. the armour factories. In France we are more and more turning toward giving up finishing processes, and stressing the sub-contracting. It is the foundries and similar works, e.g. for the use of the aluminum industry, which we wish to use to capacity. We could force the production of Opal, so that in this case Peugeot who manuc facture the forged parts for Opal, the parent firm, might demand more labor for this while this while the rest of their workers would be taken over by Opal.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 232, "page_number": "", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "190a Then page 2292 \"Milch:", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 233, "page_number": "191", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "With regard to France there is in France an industy which manufactures complete aeroplane motors and spare parts. We have transferred to France the manufacture of everything which can be made there without impairing secrecy. These are training planes, transport planes, etc. However, since we wish to make better use those possibilities, we have transferred to a great extent the manufacturing of parts. The complete product must be kept secret from the French; but in every secret appliance there are only a few parts which are to be kept secret. The bulk is made up of the other parts; their manufacture has been transferred to France to a great extent. In the same manner we have started the employment of many construction engineers there. Today there is continuous work in France for several thousand construction engineers. The industry which works in France for our benefit needs today 20,000 men who must be provided by us in order to fulfill the program. The production lags far behind the program agreed upon. While we fulfill in Germany the whole of the program, it is being met in France by only 30 per cont. True, it is now on the increase since we intervened during the last weeks and months. On principle we have kept the State out of this collaboration with French industry and have had the German firms deal with the French firms. They are called sponsor firms so that now this system works. This system has not been completed everywhere, but it is on the way all over, and we have had rather good results. We are often told we have almost the whole of Europe at our dispon sal. But the production which we receive from France is insignificant, except for army cars. The whole potential French production is not used by us so far, but only a small percentage.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 234, "page_number": "", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "If we were not forced to produce in France, since many facilities, rooms, machines, etc, cannot be transferred to Germany, if the housing of workers were not difficult, etc., then we might prefer to transfer everything to Germany and let all work be done here. But we would have too great losses in production, apart from the restiveness of the men. Yesterday we made an agreement. I am very grateful that this matter will now be put right on the spot by you, Gauleiter Sauckel, together with General von der Heyde and Colonel Brueckner. It is most difficult to get French laborers to Germany. These things cannot be 191a decided or regulated by authorities, but only a sponsor firm has the necessary means of finding out about it.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 235, "page_number": "192", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "I therefore propose to make use of sponsor firms, especially hero in France the system of sub-contracting is very much developed. Behind a factory which organizes the whole business, as far as is known from the outside, there are in fact other factories employed in preparation and semifabrication. But our sponsor firms would be able to comb out these sub-contractors as well, do ought to charge our people with combing out all those firms and to find out what men work for our program. Who does not will be spateked by us.\n\"Of course, a front exists somewhere in the East. This front will be held for a certain time. The only thing which tho Russians inherit if we evacuate an area is the population. The question is whether we had not better make it a rule to take the population back as far as 100 km. to the rear of the front. All tho civil population will be taken back 100 km. behind the front. There are no trenches for which labor would be needed.\n\"Timm: We tried to take the population of Charkow back, but the officer commanding the fortress of Charkow requested 90-120,000 people only for the construction of field works so that we had to provide even complete railway trains.\n\"Weger: They were even undertaking demolitions.\n\"Milch: But this is done by the Engineers. Any hope of getting prisoners of war from the East hardly exists today.\n\"Sauckel: If any prisoners are taken there, they will be needed.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 236, "page_number": "", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "\"Milch: We have made a request for an order that a certain percentage of men in the Anti-Aircraft Artillery must be Russians. Fifty thousand will be taken altogether; 30,000 are already employed as gunners. This is an amusing thing that Russians must work the guns. The last 20,000 arc still outstanding. Yesterday I received a letter from the Army High Command, in which they say they could release net a single man; they themselves have not enough. Thus this measure will not be successful for us.\"\n192a I don't think that the Court needs to be advised that the employment of Russian prisoners of war as anti-aircraft gunners is in violation of the laws of war.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 237, "page_number": "193", "date": "06 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-06", "text": "Used as anti-aircraft gunners, certainly not against the Germans when they are prisoners of war.\nI might point out in passing that in the German army, unlike ours, the anti-aircraft is part of the air force. In our army the anti-aircraft is part of the coast artillery and part of the ground forces. In the German army it is part of the Luftwaffe.\nIf Your Honor please, the next meeting is the 36th conference, which appears on pages 16 to 26 of Document Book A. It is quite lengthy, and I would like to put the parts in at one time. I wonder if we can adjourn now?\nTHE PRESIDENT:I was about to suggest that. You may start with that, then, in the morning and complete it in one sitting.\nThe Tribunal will recess until tomorrow morning at 9:30.\n(The Tribunal adjourned until 0930 hours, 7 January 1947.)", "speakers": [ "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 238, "page_number": "194", "date": "07 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-07", "text": "Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America, against Erhard Milch, defendant, sitting at Nuernberg, Germany, on 3 January 1947, 0930, Justice Toms, presiding.\nTHEMARSHALL) Military tribunal No. 2 is now in session.\nGod save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal.\nMR. DENNEY:I have put on Your Honor's desk and given defense counsel a copy of the consolidated index in part, with marks in Books A and B, for Your Honor's convenience, and sometime later we hope to give you one with the meetings arranged in chronological order, indicating where they are to be found in the book. With reference to meeting number 32, which was not read, if the Court recalls, which appears at page 10 and 12 of Exhibit No. 48 B, we should like to withdraw that because of the fact that the defendant was not present at that meeting. So I say, we did not read it and correct.\nMR. DENNEY:Yes, sir.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The Court has determined that under the Charter and the Ordinance, this exhibit is admissible. Its weight, however, in view of the peculiar circumstances attending it is of course still for the Tribunal to determine. This ruling is made after conference with the judges of Tribunal I, who had a similar problem presented, and which made the same ruling as this Tribunal now makes.\nMR. DENNEY:If Your Honors please, that question will come up again, because we have interrogations and affidavits from other defendants in the first trial, who have since either been executed or taken their own lives.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The Tribunal feels that the very broad scope of the section of the Charter and the Ordinance dealing with the admission of evidence justifies the admission of this exhibit.\nBefore you start, also I have been advised that Dr. Bergold will have some request to make with reference to the afternoon session. We will hear you now.\nDR. BERGOLD:To the High Tribunal, I should like to make a request: I am asking for permission to be absent from the first half of the afternoon session, as Colonel Holsten of the Nuernberg Military Government has asked me to a conference this afternoon.", "speakers": [ "THE PRESIDENT", "MR. DENNEY", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 239, "page_number": "195", "date": "07 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-07", "text": "I therefore ask your approval that my assistant, Dr. Milch, may be present in my place at the first half of the afternoon session. I assume that the Court has received my application to admit Dr. Milch as my deputy. I do not know definitely. I was told by the information center that my application has already been forwarded to Your Honors to admit this gentleman as my representative. I therefore request that he be allowed to appear in my place during the first half of the afternoon session.\nTHE PRESIDENT:What is the name of your assistant?\nDR. BERGOLD:Dr. Milch. He is the brother of the defendant Milch. He is an attorney, and I have already directed a written request to this effect to the Tribunal a few days ago.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The Tribunal sees no objection to Dr. Milch's substituting for Dr. Berhold this afternoon. The Secretary-General will please make a note of that determination.\nDR. BERGOLD:Many thinks.\nMR. DENNEY:If Your Honor please, at this time we will hand out page 169 A, which goes in Document Book 1 D, immediately following page 169. That was inadvertently left out of Your Honors' Document Book. It is page 8 of Exhibit 204PS andDr. Bergold had that in the original German. It would have completed his book. That should be 169 A, if you please, to be inserted between pages 169 and 170, Document Book 1B. That is part of Document 204 PS, which is Exhibit 39 in evidence.\nBefore coming to the 36th meeting of the Central Planning Board, which was held on April 23, 1943, I should like to direct Your Honor's attention to a letter of 8 April 1943, which appears in Document Book 2 C at page 101, and which is at page 176 of the German Book 2. We offer this as Prosecution's Exhibit No. 49. It's document No.NOKW 287. This is a letter to Sauckel and Goering, dated 8 April 1943, subject: \"Protection of Industry.\"\n\"The continuously increasing drafting of German members of the Staff, from the production as well as from the security terms (plant protection and plant fireguards) make it necessary to assign more and more foreign labor to the factories of the armament industry.", "speakers": [ "MR. DENNEY", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 240, "page_number": "", "date": "07 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-07", "text": "This assignment of foreign labor faces the plants of the armament industry with special tasks of security.\n-195a which cannot be guaranteed with the forces at present at the disposal of the industry.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 241, "page_number": "196", "date": "07 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-07", "text": "According to what I have found out the statistics of December 31, 1942 have already shown an unfulfilled demand of 15% in plant protection personnel. Moreover, the extension of the air force industry brings about a further increase in the requirements for plant protection personnel, an increase which up to now has not been covered by the labor offices.\n\"An investigation I made in a number of plants of the air force industry a short while ago has shown that even after the introduction of the compulsory labor law most of the labor offices could not make the necessary forces available for protection and fire guard tasks, while other labor agencies could not entirely satisfy the needs. The labor office of Halberstadt has even refused to deal with this requirement because these men were required for organizations without productive value.\n\"In the field of the air force industry I already ordered, at the beginning of the war, the 84 hour week for these sectors. So that no further increase can be made with these working hours, for otherwise, there would be an increase of illness which would bring about a further unwarranted weakening in the numbers of the personnel. Even the decree for the securing of the necessary forces of protectory guards, issued by you on December 29, 1942, has not yet shown any results up to now in the Field of Armament Industry.\n\"Therefore, you are urgently requested to direct the labor offices to place at the disposal of the armament plants, upon their request as quickly as possible the competent forces for plant protection and fire guards, because otherwise normal security in the plants does not seem to be guaranteed any longer.\n\"In the field of the air force industry this would involve approximately 2500 to 3000 men.\n\"We ask you to kindly inform us about the steps taken.\"", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 242, "page_number": "197", "date": "07 December 1947", "date_iso": "1947-12-07", "text": "MR. DENNEY:Turning now to the meeting of the Central Planning Board, the 36th Session, which appears in document book A at pages 16 to 26. This meeting was held on 22 April 1943. Starting at page 2106, page 16 of Document book A, Exhibit 48 A, Speer speaking:\n\"Throughout the winter we have seen that in the last instance it is coal which provides the basis for all plans which we wish to execute in other respects, and most of you are also aware of our intention to increase the manufacture of iron. Here also it will again be coal which in the last instance will tip the scales, whether or not we shall be able to accomplish this increase of iron production. Seen from the Central Planning, we are of the opinion that the demand for coal as well as the demand for iron ought to be co-ordinated in a separate plan, and that this plan ought to receive about the same degree of urgency as the Krauch-plan, and that with regard to labor, the conditions required for the execution of that plan trust be established. Perhaps Dr. Timm will be able to state how he expects the question of the miners to be developed; unfortunately the miners cannot be taken from the German reservoir, in their place we shall have to use very strong foreigners. I might add at this point that Dr. Timm was the Deputy of Sauckel, who was head of the German Labor Procurement.\n\"TIMM: at the moment, 69,000 men are needed for hauling that coal. We want to cover this by finding within the Reich 23,000 men, that is, healthy prisoners of war, etc. who are especially suitable for mining and by dispatching 50,000 Poles from the General Government. Out of these about 30,000 men have been supplied up to April 24th, so that about 39,000 men are still outstanding for January to April.\"\nIt certainly doesn't look as there are any voluntary laborers as Mr. Timm is speaking about.\n\"The demand for May has been reported to us as being 35,700. The difficulties existed especially with regard to recruitment in the General Government, since in every district surrounding Germany there is an extraordinary resistance to recruitment.", "speakers": [ "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 243, "page_number": "198", "date": "07 December 1947", "date_iso": "1947-12-07", "text": "In all countries we have to change ever more or less to registering the men by age groups and to conscripting them in age groups. They do not appear for registering as such, but as soon as transport is available, they do not come back so that the dispatch of the men has become more or less a question for the police. Especially in Poland the situation at the moment is extraordinarily serious. It is well known that vehement battles occurred just because of these actions. The resistance against the administration established by us is very strong. Quite a number of our men have been exposed to increased dangers, and it was just in the last two or three weeks that some of them were shot dead, for example, the Head of the Labor Office at Warsaw, who was shot in his office, and yesterday another man again. This is how matters stand presently, and the recruiting itself even if done with the best will remains extremely difficult unless police reinforcement are at hand. It certainly does not seem as though there are any voluntary laborers amongst those whom Timm is speaking about.\n\"It was expected that at the end of the month 50,000 men should have arrived from the General Government. Unfortunately, this could not be done. Only three or four thousand of them have arrived, and 8,000 more are on the way, so that the gap is rather considerable.\n\"SPEER: Of these men one can indeed only absorb a portion each month.\n\"SOGEMEIER: We have provided a plan for stages April 26,000, May 30,000, June 30,000, July 50,000, and September 56,000. If the men arrive in these stages and numbers, we should be able to reach the 290 millions of tons, provided that no miners are otherwise called up.\n\"SPEER: Are these additional labor supplies? Are these numbers which you wish to build up:\n\"TIMM: Yes, they include the losses which we expect.\n\"MILCH: Yes, including the 70,000.\n\"SPEER: I take it that the losses are included in these numbers?\n\"TIMM: Yes, this is not building up but distribution, if I understand rightly. As said before, we hope to dispatch within the next month 50,000 men from the General Government including the men shifted from other industries.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 244, "page_number": "", "date": "07 December 1947", "date_iso": "1947-12-07", "text": "This page seems to have been omitted from Dr. Bergold's book. I think you are getting them now. We can pick up with the second sentence -198a in Timms speech there.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 245, "page_number": "199", "date": "07 December 1947", "date_iso": "1947-12-07", "text": "Do you have that?\n\"Including the men shifted from other districts there will be 73,000 which should cover the first two months. It would be very difficult for us to increase the number in the next two months, since we have to provide agriculture with the remaining requirements which are due within the next two months, whereas in the months beginning with June the need of agricultural labor can be satisfied much easier by measures taken inside Germany. In the harvest months German labor can be called up for assistance. Only during the season for the harvesting of root vegetables is the situation difficult.\n\"After what General Commissioner Sauckel found out in the East during his new completed tour of inspection, it would be possible to dispose of more Russian labor again in the ensuing months. How many of them will be men, can at the moment hardly be guessed, since it is the army especially who wishes to release women from the East, but to keep the men there because they are needed for all kinds of urgent work.\n\"SPEER: May I propose an inquiry on the question as to what Russian laborers are used at the moment as auxiliary laborers in the armament factories, in essential war business or otherwise? This should be done separately from these who in the meantime have learned a trade. We can indirectly exchange auxiliary industry workers with Russian women, and we will be able in this way to provide the mining industry with Russian prisoners of war who now do clearing up labor in the courtyards.\n\"TIMM: I would also propose such indirect exchange for the essential industry as well.\n\"SPEER: The towns also were provided some time ago with Russian prisoners-of-war for sweeping roads, etc.\n\"TIMM: Not many will be found there. If we look for greater numbers of prisoners-of-war we shall find them repairing tracks at the railways, and it will not be easy to extract them there, since they need grown-up and vigorous men.\n\"SPEER: But the Russian women do that kind of work.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 246, "page_number": "200", "date": "07 December 1947", "date_iso": "1947-12-07", "text": "\"GANZEMMUELLER: We need the men, and it is out of the question to extract men from there. We use them now as railway guards also, and we have to do this, since no other people are available.\n\"TIMM: Then we are going to draw up a statement showing where Russian prisoners-of-war and civilians are still used anywhere in the industry, except those who are employed after having gone through training.\n\"SPEER: Including also the agriculture. Trained people cannot be extracted. I should object at once in my capacity as General Commissioner for Armaments, if now trained men would be extracted again from the armament factories. The works manager will go slowly if he has to train new people over and over again. But to extract in order to send them to the mines, their employers must receive other laborers in exchange.\n\"ROHLAND: This would be impossible for the foundries. We need 35,000 additional women, whom we could employ at once, but we do not get them. We have already assented to the exchange of 35,000 eastern laborers, but we must get them as soon as the mining industry gets its men. This is understood.\n\"SOGIMEIER: This labor demand applies solely to pit-coal. As to lignite, we need an additional 25,000 men in the course of the next months.\n\"SPEER: This is exactly the same in the other mining industries including ore.\n\"KEHRL: 85% are needed for coal-pits, the remaining mining industry ought to get additions in proportion.\n\"SPEER: You should add up the numbers. We cannot approach the Reich Marshal with numbers for a single industry.\n\"TIMM: altogether it amounts to 70,000 for coal and 14,000 for the remaining mines, potassium included.\n\"SPEER: We do it that way; Kehrl collects the demands for labor necessary to complete the coal and iron plan and communicates the numbers to sauckel. Probably there will be a conference at the Reich Marshal's in the next week, and an answer from Sauckel should have arrived by then. The question of recruitment for the armaments industry will be solved together with Weger.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 247, "page_number": "201", "date": "07 December 1947", "date_iso": "1947-12-07", "text": "\"KEHRL: I wish to urge that the allotments to the mines should not be made dependent on the recruitment of men abroad. We were completely frustrated these last three months because this principle had been applied. We ended December with a deficit of 25,000 and we never get replacements. The number must be made up by men from Germany.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 248, "page_number": "202", "date": "07 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-07", "text": "\"SPEER: No, nothing doing!\" They won't employ Germans.\n\"KEHRL: We are completely stuck. I wish to point out that for a year now we feed the mining industry with promises only, and always are we pressed by the pits. They have received only half of the amount they were promised last year.\nSPEER:That they were only put off is not true. It was something, too, which they got in the meantime. Let us not hide our candle under the bushel.\nKEHRL:If all is said and done, we are in such a precarious situation that trouble is certain if one considers the ever increased program of the armament industry. No, we have drawn the plan for May. This plan cannot in fact be executed, since the 1st of May is a holiday. The other day already we did not know how we could make it right.\"\nThe next figure that appears is 300,000 tons, but I think it must be 80,000 -- \"tons of coal fall out by reason of observing the 1st May. Compared with such numbers we are not served by a slow increase in haulage. The mines must receive their allotment in one stroke.\nSPEER:Out of the question. If Sauckel is able to promise the amount which he tries to get..........\nTIMM:He quite expressly stated he cannot promise to dispatch 50,000 men from the General Government.\nSPEER:But Russia has to be added to it.\nTIMM:Owing to the military events the influx which we had up to December has stopped at once. We received formerly 10-12,000 men in the three last months, 60,000 altogether. This is how the number has gone down.\nKEHRL:We now have to touch the reserve which we cannot miss on the other side. Pleiger some time ago wired Sauckel, and reports like that from the Foundry East also came from other works.\n\"SPEER: This has been clarified already by an ordinance --\"\nDo you you have it, Dr. Bergold?\nDR. BERGOLD:No.\nMR. DENNEY:In the speech of Timm it starts out \"Owing to the mili tary events -- Owing to the military event the influx which we had up to December has stopped at once.", "speakers": [ "TIMM", "KEHRL", "DR. BERGOLD", "MR. DENNEY", "SPEER" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 249, "page_number": "203", "date": "07 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-07", "text": "We received formerly 10-12,000 men in the three last months, 60,000 altogether. This is how the number has gone down.\nKEHRL:We now have to touch the reserve which we cannot miss on the other side. Pleiger some time ago wired Sauckel, and reports like that from the Foundry East also came from other works.\nSPEER:This has been clarified already by an ordinance and a letter from me to Sauckel; from the coal pits, the foundries and the Ivan-program as such no labor will be extracted, and from the age groups only the auxiliary laborers who can be taken at the spot from the 3 - 4 age groups in question.\nKEHRL:In this case the labor again will be taken from agriculture.\nSPEER:In relation to the whole of the population the number employed by the \"Mountain Foundry East\" is immaterial.\nTIMM:The Gauleiter returned this morning after he spent seven days on the other side, and told me on the telephone he had spoken there with all competent authorities and they promised him to deliver until August a number not far below one million, consisting of men and women. Nobody can predict how many will be men.\nKEHRL:The far greater number will be women.\nSPEER:These women we can use in the Reich. There are a great number of Russian prisoners of war and laborers who are employed at places where they need not be employed. There can be an exchange. The only thing is to do this with unskilled workers, and not to take the workers from the industry where they were trained with difficulty.\n\"KEHRL: Where we are late in completion of a task, or where we lose an opportunity, we can make up for it. But any coal which we cannot haul at once is definitely lost for use in this war. This is why we cannot do enough to force the allotment to the pits.\nSPEER:But not by forcible actions in smashing what we toilsomely built.", "speakers": [ "TIMM", "KEHRL", "SPEER" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 250, "page_number": "204", "date": "07 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-07", "text": "(KEHRL: We need not do that.) You ought to add the conscripted labor.\nTIMM:We must endeavor to get German men for working at the coalface.\nKEHRL:We subsist on foreigners who live in Germany.\nTIMM:These men are concentrated within a very small area. Otherwise there might be trouble in this sector.\nSPEER:There is a specified statement showing in what sectors the Russian prisoners of war have been distributed, and this statement is quite interesting. It shows that the armaments industry only received 30%. I always complained about this.\nTIMM:The highest percentage of Prisoners of War are Frenchmen, and one ought not to forget that it is difficult to employ them at the coalface. The number of Russians living within the Reich is small.\nROHLAND:In the mines one should exclusively use eastern people, not western ones.\nSPEER:The western men collapse.\nSOGEMEIER:May I point out how much we are on the way down: In comparison with the end of February, before the start of the SE-action, we lost every day 40,000 tons of pit coal, only because we did not get replacements for the allotment promised to us; we were supposed to have our losses replaced in the proportion of 2 for 0. The proportion is still 1 for 1.\n\"SPEER: I have been given a note according to which the mines received in the first quarter of 1943, therefore at the same time when the call-ups took place, an additional 18,000 men.\nSOGEMEIER:At the beginning of the year we had still to receive out of earlier demands about 26,000 men. To that number there are to be added 26,000 men owing to the SE-action, if we take a proportion of 1 for 1. The Central Planning had promised us in March 15,000 men for use in a planned increase of haulage. Altogether we received only 18,000 men. This means that in fact we had not even the remainder of the request for the preceding year, and moreover that we had not yet received replacements for the SE-action in proportion of 1 for 1. Now Field Marshal Keitel wants to know whether the mining industry was in a position to release another 14,000 men.", "speakers": [ "TIMM", "KEHRL", "ROHLAND", "SOGEMEIER", "SPEER" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 251, "page_number": "205", "date": "07 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-07", "text": "In our present situation this is entirely out of the question. If we lose another 14,000 men they could be taken only from the most vigorous age groups of the coal face workers. It is easy to calculate to what extent the haulage would go down in such a case. We urgently ask to protect us from further calling-up in the mining industry.\nSPEER:At least it cannot be undertaken until replacement labor is available in such a way that they all have been trained. It cannot be done at a moment's notice.\nKEHRL:Before August we cannot discuss such a thing. A decrease of 40,000 tons a day means a yearly deficit of 14 million tons.\nSPEER:Timm will find out in collaboration with Wager and the District Economy Office where Russians suitable for mining are still employed as auxiliary laborers. They will be exchanged man for man against Russian women or other replacements received by us and suitable for their work, and the Russians will be turned over to the mining industry. I would only be preferable to make a preliminary examination of these men, since of the people engaged we always found only one half of them to be really suitable. The pre-examination of these men in the factories should set a stricter standard. After the final numbers have been found out and discussed with Timm, a detailed statement has to be prepared for use in the Reich Marshal's conference.\n\"SOGEMEIER: May I put a question connected with this matter? Russians are still being combed out from the mining industry who had been more or less trained metal workers. This leads to difficulties, since Russian prisoners of war, when they learn of this fact, come forward at once and state they had been metal workers.\nSPEER:The intention was to comb out these Russians solely for use in the industry which services the needs of the mining industry. This is clearly stated with regard to the mines. In that case you surely have no objections?", "speakers": [ "KEHRL", "SPEER" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 252, "page_number": "206", "date": "07 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-07", "text": "\"SOGEMEIER: No, if the industry which serves the mines is receiving them, I do not object.\n\"KEHRL: In case of doubt the serving industry is not getting them. As soon as they are discovered, the Russians are snatched away for more urgent work. For instance, we have experienced that people while being on their way to us have been redirected when they had arrived in Cologne. Only a certain percentage of then arrive as a rule, a rather high percentage is taken away for different use.\n\"SPEER: But the number of men released as metal workers is established. Therefore, it must be possible to find out how many of these men have arrived at the serving industry. You are able to find that out, Mr. Sogemeier. We on our part had agreed with Sauckel that they are to be extracted solely for the serving industry. This was in compliance with Pleiger's express request to that effect.\n\"SPEER: In any case we ought to force the coal production with all our power.\n\"I have here a statement on the distribution of the Soviet prisoners. There are 368,000 altogether Of these are: 101,000 in agriculture, 94,000 in the mining industry, who are not available in any case, 15,000 in the building materials industry, 26,000 in iron and metal production where they cannot be extracted either, 29,000 in the manufacture of iron, steel, and metal goods, 63,000 in the manufacture of machines, boilers, and cars and similar appliances, which means the armaments industry and 10,000 in the chemical industry. Agriculture thus has received by far the most of them, and the men employed there could in the course of time be exchanged for women. The 90,000 Russian prisoners of war employed in the whole of the armaments industry are for the greatest part skilled men. If you can extract 8 - 10,000 men from there, it would already be the limit.\n\"KEHRL: Would it not be possible to add Serbians, etc?\n\"SOGEMEIER: We ought not to mix them too much.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 253, "page_number": "207", "date": "07 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-07", "text": "ROHLAND:For God's sake, no Serbians! We had very bad experiences with mixing.\nSPEER:We distribute by starting from a production of 290 million tons which is quite considerable. If the conditions on which such a production can be reached cannot be fulfilled, this will influence the supply of household coal to a very great extent. This we ought to point out to Sauckel, that is, that the psychological effect on the population will be a considerable one in case he cannot provide the necessary labor.\n\"MEINBERG: Especially since the transports of laborers always arrive 1½ months later than promised; for this means a loss of 10% production intended to be accomplished by the additional laborers. In that case the 290 million tons can never be reached, but 280 million at the most. The deal alone in supplying the labor has that effect.\nSPEER:What are your proposals for our further action, Kehrl?\nKEHRL:If the labor supply is secured by appropriate measures we have no problems as to its distribution. This problem for distribution, however, is insulable, if we have to distribute the labor for a production of less than 295 million tons, that is, if we produce less than 282 million tons. According to what Timm just said and what we have discussed, we shall not reach our goal. He wants to take 22,000 men from inner Germany, moreover 10,000 Russian Prisoners of War, altogether 32,000. To supply the rest, we wait for God in Heaven and the General Government. Judging by our earlier experience, we shall not get them. The gentlemen of the General had to cancel the recruitment owing to the danger for their lives, since they were unable to recruit at all in certain areas. The least we have to reckon with are therefore great delays, and each delay means great loss of production because there is less hauling.\nTIMM:All these numbers are estimates, and nobody can guarantee their correctness. I made a point of mentioning the difficulties. But I am enough of an optimist to believe that we shall be able to attain these numbers. I also said we hope to supply in May the outstanding labor from the General Government despite all the difficulties. If one es timates pessimistically one never arrives at a conclusion.", "speakers": [ "TIMM", "ROHLAND", "SPEER", "KEHRL" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 254, "page_number": "208", "date": "07 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-07", "text": "KEHRL:Our risk with regard to coal, however, is too great. All honor to the optimist, but it seems out of the question that we could get as much as we need. We cannot affort to take a risk in this matter.\nSPEER:Who is in a position to give you a guarantee for a 100% certainty?\nKEHRL:We have to employ the men who are already in this country. This is the only possible guarantee.\nSPEER:Absolutely out of the question.\nKEHRL: (continues) In relation to the number of men already working for us the 20,000 to 30,000 men whom we wish to extract are a very small number. They are of decisive importance for the entire industry. We employ altogether 24 million men. If we extract 25,000 directly from our people, this does mean nothing for he manufactures, but would decisively benefit the whole of industry.\nSPEER:Out of the question!", "speakers": [ "KEHRL", "SPEER" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 255, "page_number": "209", "date": "07 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-07", "text": "\"SCHIEBER: In my opinion the General Commissioner for Labor ought to proceed in the following manner: Action to bring about the immediate release of at least 30,000 laborers from agriculture who will be supplied to the coal mines. In exchange, agriculture which is anyway in urgent need of additional female labor, receives any female labor who arrive. In my opinion the mines today can be supplied only from the sole real reserve of vigorous foreign men which we still have viz. from agriculture. These men are also well fed and able to do real work.\nSPEER: Everything depends on the amount of the influx from abroad.\nSCHIEBER: If anyway nothing arrives, the mines certainly will get nothing.\nTIMM: Gauleiter Sauckel is perfectly convinced that the transports will be on their way within a short time. Now the front has been consolidated at last.\nSCHIEBER: We ought to be grateful that the weather has allowed the farmer to keep things going in some way despite the little labor being available to him. For the farmer, the coal supply is just as important as for the whole of the armaments industry, when we discuss tomorrow the nitrogen problem we shall see the same. Our first, need is coal.\nKOERNER: On the 1st of April we had in agriculture a deficit of about 600,000 laborers. It had been planned to cover it by supplying labor from the east, mainly women. These laborers will first have to be supplied until other laborers are released from agriculture. We are just entering the season where the heaviest work in the fields has to be done, for which many laborers are necessary. Much labor is needed for the hoeing of the fruits, and it is to be hoped that this year the harvest can be started early which would be rendered much more difficult if an exchange of labor would have to take place.\nKEHRL: Relatively considered, agriculture is much better provided with labor than the mines. They are still able to undertake improvements which they could not have undertaken in peace-time. We of the mines, on the other hand, have to fight for 20 to 30,000 men. It should not be possible to raise this number out oi the 24 millions? The mines are in a bad position because they en use only certain categories of workers. They are fed with hopes of the men promised from the General Government, or of Russians. But if these men do not arrive?", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 256, "page_number": "210", "date": "07 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-07", "text": "SOGEMEIER: The 30,000 men are but replacements for the men extracted by the SE-action. If we get them we can just haul 260 million tons, in the best possible case, 275 million tons. Therefore, we need more men than the 30,000.\nKEHRL: I meant this number in an additional sense: Added 30,000 men to those expected from the General Government.\nSPEER: How is the situation in the Protectorate, Mr. Timm? Can we not extract anything from there?\nTIMM: Discussions on this question had been planned, but were cancelled because of the intended shifting of orders for manufacture in the Protectorate.\nMR DENNEY:If the court please, I shall now give the interpreter the English copy which they can use for interpreting there, and shall give the photostatic copy in German to them. Now continuing \"SPEER:\nDespite this shifting, the manpower reservoir is still of such size that some could be extracted. Apart from this, we are not in a position to shift orders at wish, but we are already hampered by the power question.\nTIMM: This is exactly what we expected. But the discussions planned to take place in Prague, have been cancelled.\nSPEER: The local authorities always maintain that nothing can be released.\nTIMM: We wanted the discussions in Prague, since we had examined the position and found out that there are far too many skilled workers in some places and that many workers could be extracted. But subsequently we were told by the Ministry, the conference was cancelled because the shifting made it necessary to employ all available labor.\nWEGER: General Daluege and Gauleiter Sauckel especially wished that you, Mr. Minister, took part in the conference. I agree with Timm, and told Hoersekamp that I do not doubt he could release labor from the General Government despite the shifting, because the power question will not be solved in the Protectorate until next year, and the year after. Until that time he can not even use so much labor. Therefore he ought to release some in any case.\nMILCH: We ought to except certain areas of the Protectorate to which the orders are being directed, and nothing extract there until a surplus is found out subsequently. For the time being it can not be ascertained. There are enough Court.", "speakers": [ "MR DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 257, "page_number": "211", "date": "07 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-07", "text": "No. 2 other areas of the Protectorate which are not affected by the industry plan and some labor could be extracted from them at once.\nWe ought to name the places which are excepted from our action.\nTIMM: In this the authorities on the other side ought to participate. They are in the best position to tell the places from where nothing must be extracted.\nMILCH: If one proceeds as I proposed, and Timm agreed to it, no damage can be done. This ought to be done in any case. For the rest I completely agree. We must now supply the mines with labor. The greatest part of labor which we can supply from the East will indeed be women. But the eastern women are quite accustomed to agricultural work, and especially to the type of work which has to be done these coming weeks, the hoeing and transplanting of turnips, etc. The women are quite suitable for this. One thing has to be considered. First, you must supply agriculture with the women, then you can extract the men, laborer for laborer. It is not the right thing if first the men are taken away, and the farmers are left without labor for 4 to 6 weeks. If the women arrive after such time they arrive too late.\nSPEER: Beyond this we are prepared to release from all parts of the war economy in exchange for women, any Russian P/W, or other Russian who is employed as auxiliary laborer.\nMR. DENNEY:The next meeting to which we come is on 23 July -- however, before that there is a Hitler conference which appears on page 38 of Document Book No. 3-A; a note made by Speer on 10 July 1943, in a discussion with Hitler on 8 July 1943, which appears at page 38 in the Document Book No. 3-A, as follows: \"The Fuehrer laid down in the coal discussion that 70,000 Russian prisoners of war fit for mining work should be sent each month to the mines. He also pointed out that an approximate minimum of 150,000 - 200,000 fit Russian prisoners of war must be earmarked for the mines in order to obtain the required number of men suitable for this work. If the Russian prisoners of war can not be released by the Army, the male population in the partisan infested areas should without distinction --\"\nThat is our page 37. I don't know what is the German page. It must he 82, 83, or 84, perhaps, in Book 3-A. I have read down to the end of the first paragraph, if you want to read that.", "speakers": [ "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 258, "page_number": "212", "date": "07 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-07", "text": "Do you want to read in German the first paragraph, and then we can pick up the second paragraph.\n\"If the Russian prisoners of war cannot be released by the Army, the male population in the partisan infested areas should without distinction he proclaimed prisoners of war and sent off to the mines.\n\"The Fuehrer ordered at the same time that these prisoners of war who are not fit for the mines should immediately he placed in the iron industry, in manufacturing and supply industries and in the armament industry.\n\"The Fuehrer further ordered that he should receive a monthly report giving:\n(A) The total number of Russian prisoners of war.\n(B) The number of Russian prisoners of war fit for mining, who have been made available for the mines and a report addressed to Field Marshal Keitel as to why the remainder could not be used.\n\"The joint report of Sauckel and Pleiger is also to he sent to me.\"\nThen we cone to the 42nd meeting of the Central Planning, which appears at pages 27 and 28 of Document Book A - that is marked the 59th meeting by inadvertence in the German book, but actually it is a copy of the 42nd meeting, and on page 54 of the German document book.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 259, "page_number": "213", "date": "07 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-07", "text": "Here's a page -- it appears on Page 27 of the English book. These are the results of the meeting, typed or signed by one Dr. Gramsch, and the list on Page 28 indicates that the defendant was present. This meeting was held on the 23 of June 1943.\n\"The manpower situation in the coal mining industry, particularly in the hard coal mining industry, is still unsatisfactory, and necessitates an extension of the measures decided upon at the 36th session of the Central Planning Board, held on the 22nd April 1943.\n\"The intensive discussion yielded as the most expedient solution the use of Russian prisoners of war to fill the existing vacancies. The more homogeneous character of the shifts will\" -- The original hasn't come back from the document room, so at this time we will pass the reading up of the 42nd meeting due to the fact that Dr. Bergold doesn't have a copy of it and the interpreters.\nAnd the next document is 1292-PS which appears in Document Book 2-B, Page 60 and on Page 106 of the German translation. We offer this as Exhibit No. 50, being Document 1292-PS: A Sauckel letter to Lammers, dated 5 January 1944, being a report of a Hitler meeting with reference to the allocation of labor.\nTHE PRESIDENT:On what page?\nMR. DENNEY:Page 60 of 2-B, Sir. This is dated. 5 January 1942 and is to Reich Minister and Chief of the Reich Chancellery, Dr. Lammers, written by Gauleiter Sauckel, the General Plenipotentiary for Labor.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Is it 1942 or '44?\nMR.DENNEY: '44, Sir; I am sorry.\n\"I herewith beg to be permitted to submit to you the following notes about the result of yesterday's conference of the chiefs at the Fuehrer's.\n\"I further ask you to confirm this result on your part to the chiefs who took part in the conference and to be so kind as to support me in the introduction of the measures which have become necessary as a result of the conference.", "speakers": [ "MR.", "MR. DENNEY", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 260, "page_number": "214", "date": "07 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-07", "text": "\"1. The chief subject of the conference was the minimum requirement for workers to be expected in 1944.\n\"After listening to the participants in the conference, the Fuehrer ruled:\n\"a) In order to maintain employment at its present level in the entire war economy including agriculture or in order to compensate for losses due to drafting into the Wehrmacht, death, illness, expiration of contracts, etc., it is necessary to make available 2,500,000 workers.\n\"b) In order to replenish factories which are to carry out additional armament tasks special Fuehrer programs, it is necessary to make available 1,300,000 for Reich Minister Speer.\n\"c) In order to fulfill requests of the Fuehrer concerning air raid shelters 250,000 workers are needed.\n\"Total: 4,050,000.\n\"2. For the purpose of mobilizing reserves of strength of German workers and of foreigners working in Germany, the G.B.A. submitted the suggestion that an effective incentive for an increased output be created by granting food premiums and other advantages. The execution of this suggestion, the practicability of which was recognized unanimously, encounters considerable difficulties due to the fact that the necessary additional food can hardly be raised from German reserves. The Fuehrer held out the prospect of succeeding in making available the necessary products by personally contacting Marshal Antonescue.\n\"3. The Fuehrer commissioned the G.B.A. on his part to contact the Reich Minister of Foreign Affairs in order to be able to prepare the mobilization of the necessary foreign workers with the utmost speed.\n\"4. The Fuehrer ruled that the workers employed in the French armament industries by Reich Minister Speer should be protected against a removal.\n\"5. The Fuehrer pointed out that it was necessary to convince all German offices in the occupied territories and in the axis satellite countries of the necessity of employing foreign workers in order to enable them to assist the G.B.A. in carrying out the necessary organizational, propagantistic and police measures.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 261, "page_number": "215", "date": "07 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-07", "text": "\"6. The G.B.A. emphasized that during the past two years he had been in the position of being able to guarantee the execution of the given tasks in advantage. This was not possible with absolute certainty in the year 1944. He would, however, make every effort in order to fulfill the plant program under any circumstances.\n\"The G.B.A. brought up the question of the stabilization of the wages in the occupied territories. The Fuehrer emphasized again that it would be necessary to maintain the level of wages also, in the future; since the additional recruitment of 4,050,000 -workers for the year 1944 was made compulsory by virtue of the Fuehrer's decision.\" -- Do you have a page missing, Dr. Bergold, too?\nDR. BERGOLD:Missing.\nMR.DENNEY: \"I suggest the following program to make the necessary workers available\" -- That is Page 62 -- \"after a most exhaustive examination of all possibilities:\n\"1. From reserves within Germany, about 500,000 new workers can be mobilized if the utmost efforts are exerted (commitment of workers who became unemployed as a result of enemy air raids, duty to register shutting down, measures of selection.\n\"2. Recruitment of Italian workers amounting to 500,000, of these from January to April monthly 250,000 to 1,000,000 and from May to December 500,000.\n\"3. Recruitment of 1,000,000 monthly French workers at the same rates, from 1.2 to 31.12,44.\" (From the beginning of January to the end of December). \"(about 91,000 per month).\n\"4. Recruitment of 250,000 workers from Belgium.\n\"5. Recruitment of 250,000 workers from the Netherlands.\n\"6. Recruitment of workers from the Eastern territories, the occupied former Soviet territories, the Baltic States, the Government General\" -- And the figure has been left out.\n\"7. Recruitment of workers from the rest of the European countries, 100,000.", "speakers": [ "MR.", "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 262, "page_number": "216", "date": "07 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-07", "text": "\"In order to be able to carry through this program, I ask that the Fuehrer be requested to issue a decree to the highest Reich authorities and military offices concerned, emphasizing again to these agencies the urgency of the task. This decree might mention in an appropriate manner that at an exhaustive conference of the Chiefs at the Fuehrer's with the competent departments, a total requirement of 4,050,000 additional workers for the year was laid down and that the G.B.A. thereupon worked out the above program for the fulfillment of the requirement; the Fuehrer has approved it and its fulfillment is to be aimed at under all conditions. The highest Reich authorities and the military offices concerned should have it pointed out to them that they should assist the G.B.A. with the greatest vigor in carrying out this measure.\n\"In my opinion, primarily the following authorities are to receive the decree:\n\"1. The Reich Fuehrer SS and the Reich Minister of the Interior Himmler for the information of all higher SS and police chiefs in the West, in the East and in the South.\n\"2. The Reich Minister for Foreign Affairs von Ribbentrop for the information of diplomats representing the Reich.\n\"3. The Chief of the OKW, Field Marshal Keitel, for the information of the military commanders in French and Belgium, the military commander SouthEast, the plenipotentiary general with the Fascist-Republican Government of Italy, the chiefs of the army groups in the East.\n\"4. The Reich Minister of occupied Eastern territories for the information of the Reich Commissioners for the Ukraine and the Ostland.\n\"5. The Reich Commissioner of the occupied Dutch territories.\n\"6. The German General in Cracow, and the General Governor.\n\"I would be especially grateful to you, most Honorable Reich Minister, if you would be so kind as to expedite this matter as much as possible. In order to carry out the spring cultivation in Germany, as well as to prevent a further decrease in the level of employed in the armament industry, the speediest action is essential. It is important to get the recruitment of foreign workers under way again as Quickly as possible.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 263, "page_number": "217", "date": "07 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-07", "text": "Since the Fuehrer has made his decision, I do not want a single day to be lost in the preparation of the measures which must now be taken.\"\nIf Your Honor please, an error has been made in the transcription in the original which I have and which I will now show to Dr. Bergold. Opposite Item 6, which appears on page 62 of Document Book 2-B of Exhibit 50 in evidence, the figure \"600,000\" should be inserted.\nWe have now obtained the 42nd meeting and in the interest of order it might be well to read that at this time. If Your Honors will recall, that is on page 27 of Document Book 3-A. It is the results of the 42nd meeting which was held on 23 June 1943, and it was passed for the moment because the copy of Dr. Bergold did not have the proper page in it and we now have the photostat of the original.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 264, "page_number": "218", "date": "07 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-07", "text": "\"The manpower situation in the coal mining industry, particularly in the hard coal mining industry, is still unsatisfactory and necessitates an extension of the measures decided upon at the 36th session of the Central Planning board held on 22 April 1943.\n\"The intensive discussion yielded as the most expedient solution the use of Russian prisoners of war to fill the existing vacancies. The more homogeneous character of the shifts will bring about the necessary higher output resulting both from an increased capacity of such shifts and particularly from a restriction of fluctuations.\n\"1. The present drive, which is to be carried out throughout the German economy proper, aims both at freeing Russian labor fit for work in the mining industry and actually not employed as semi-skilled workmen, and at replacing it by additional imported labor consisting of Eastern workers, Poles, etc. Thus, about 50,000 workmen are expected to be made available up to the end of July 1943. This drive is to be accelerated.\n\"Furthermore, as an immediate measure it should be suggested to the Fuehrer - RVK and the GBA submitting the necessary figures for the statement to the Fuehrer - that 200,000 Russian prisoners fit for the heaviest work be made available from the Wehrmacht and Waffen SS through the intermediary of the Chiefs of the Army Groups. The prisoners will be selected on the spot by medical officers in the mining industry and officials of the Commissioner General for Labor Control (GBA) will take charge of then, there and then. Provisions are to be made for an extension of this program in order to satisfy any demand for manpower, which will have accumulated up to end of the year 1943.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 265, "page_number": "219", "date": "07 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-07", "text": "\"The manpower needed by the mining transport industry and by the iron-producing industry may be supplied from that same source provided that the necessities of the coal mining industry have previously been adjusted.\n\"The performance of the Soviet Russians so employed is to be raised by a premium system. For this purpose the ban on pay restrictions is to be lifted and the manager be allowed to distribute among the workmen, according to his duty and discretion, RM 1 per head per day as a premium for particular services rendered.\n\"Furthermore, care will be taken that workmen can exchange these premiums, which will be paid out in camp money, for goods. It is intended to put at their disposal various provisions - beer, tobacco, cigarettes and cigars, small items for daily use, etc.\n\"The Reich Ministry of Food, in conjunction with the Reich Association Coal and the Reich Ministry of Economic Affairs, will clarify the question whether further improvement can be granted as far as rations are concerned.\n\"2. Equally in occupied countries, labor is to be tied more securely to the various factories by means of the distribution of additional ration cards as premium for good service. This refers in particular to the Government General and the occupied territories in the east. The output demanded of the Government General is to be fixed at the proposed amount, and the additional rations for armament workers may then be rated accordingly.\"\nThe Court will note the amount of these premiums that are being placed at the disposal of the people working could be purchased for RM 1 is reasonably limited.\nThe next document isNOKW-198, which should have been inserted in Your Honors' Document Book No. 2. The chart should be between pages 58 and 60. It is listed in the index of Document Book 2-A asNOKW-098. It followsNO-1177and precedes 1929-PS which was just offered as Exhibit No. 50. It is a photostat and looks like this (photostatic copy of document held up by Mr. Denney) if Honors please.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 266, "page_number": "220", "date": "07 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-07", "text": "It has a letter attached to it, a photostat.\nTHE PRESIDENT:That will be Exhibit No. 51?\nMR. DENNEY:We offer this as Exhibit No. 51. If the Court please, in having copies made of this exhibit some difficulty was encountered because there are some figures which have been written over and the original exhibit which the Secretary General has perhaps gives a little clearer picture. For some reason it was impossible to photostat the chart and this was the best we could do -- to make a translation of it which has been certified. I suggest that your Honors look at the original so as to see the handwriting which appears over the figures. We have tried to show them as well as possible on the copies which we made.\n(The original exhibit was handed to the President by the Secretary General)\nTHE PRESIDENT:Mr. Dixon, this is the German.\nMR. DENNEY:That is what we wanted your Honors to see -- the writing and figures because it was impossible in the translation to make the copies show -- it conforms, at least, as a Chinese copy so as to speak. Your Honors will note that on the letter which is on the first page -- that is this short piece of paper with it -- up in the right hand corner there is handwritten \"back to Central Planning\" and then \"MI\" which are the initials in the handwriting of the defendant.\nNow this is a proposal of distribution for I/1944. It is submitted that that means the first quarter of 1944. There is no other date on it except at the bottom it says \"25 February 1944\".\nNow, if this is examined, over on the left side appears a chart \"distribution of labor\" and it is to be noted that foreigners -- French, Belgians, Dutch, Italians, Eastern workers, Balkans, and other foreigners - are listed there and, also, prisoners of war, and that distribution of labor is listed in thousands.", "speakers": [ "MR. DENNEY", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 267, "page_number": "", "date": "07 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-07", "text": "Over at the right, the third section, under III it speaks of \"armament and war production\", listing thereunder mining, other raw material industry, 220A iron and metal and ore manufacturing industry, trade goods and food producing industry, building industry, and energy.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 268, "page_number": "221", "date": "07 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-07", "text": "And then the various totals by \"natives, male and female; foreigners, male and female\". Then over in the last column under \"balance: 31 May 1943\" prisoners of war.\nThere are some handwritten notes on the left. There are also some handwritten notes on the right. We will produce the original after the recess in order that your Honors may see it because on the original the Defendant's note \"Back to Central Planning Milch\" is in red pencil. Also, this other handwriting on the plan is in red pencil. I would like Your Honor to see it.\n(A recess was taken).", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 269, "page_number": "222", "date": "07 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-07", "text": "MR. DENNEY:If Your Honors please, we have now obtained the original of Exhibit 51 and Your Honors will note that there are, in addition to the short letter, two pages. The first page appearing thereafter has nothing on it that is not typewritten. That has been photostated and Dr. Bergold has a copy of that and we are getting this page photostated to add it to the exhibit. However, the page that I want to bring up for Your Honors' attention at this time is the last page and the first page and when the photostat comes through of this second one we just have typewritten material except for one red pencil mark around the word \"Geheim\". We will add that to the exhibit.\nIt is our contention that the figures in red on the second page were placed there by the defendant.\nJUDGE MUSMANO:You say the second page?\nMR. DENNEY:Well, the second page in the exhibit, actually that first page which is there. The second page is not part of the exhibit which Your Honors have and there is no red writing on there. So that the record is clear, on the last page which Your Honors have of the original exhibit.\nWe then cone to the 53rd meeting of the Central Planning Board, which appears at Page 29, Document Book A. It is page 56 in the German copy.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Mr. Denney, is there a page number for this photostatic exhibit 51? Where should it go?\nMR. DENNEY:It goes between pages 58 and 60. It should have page 59 in Document Book 2-B, and Your Honors' index in Document Book 2-A should be corrected to read NOWK 198 instead of NOWK 098. Its page number is 59, Document Book 2-B. It follows an excerpt from the Tribunal which isNO 1177and precedes Exhibit Number 50, which is 1292-PS.", "speakers": [ "THE PRESIDENT", "JUDGE MUSMANO", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 270, "page_number": "", "date": "07 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-07", "text": "THE PRESIDENT:We have it.\nMR. DENNEY:In addition, we would like to offer as Exhibit 52 and ask the court to judicially noticeNO 1177, which appears at page 103 in Document Book 2-C, an excerpt from the transcript of the International Military Tribunal pages 5651 to 5656. That becomes Document No. 52. It is next to the last document on the index of Your Honors' Document Book No. 2, No. 1172.\n222A This is the testimony of -- on cross-examination by Mr. Justice Jackson in the initial trial of the defendant with reference to the matter which we ore now going to read, the 53rd meeting of the Central Planning Board, appearing on page 29, Exhibit 48 A, Document Book No. 3 A. This is a partial excerpt from the \"stenographic transcript of the 53rd conference of the Control planning Board, concerning the supply of labor on February 16, 1944, 10 o'clock in the Reich Air Ministry.", "speakers": [ "MR. DENNEY", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 271, "page_number": "223", "date": "07 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-07", "text": "(Prsent: Milch (for Central Planning), Dehrle, Berk, etc.)\" \"Milch:\nThe Armament industry employs foreign workmen to a large extent: according to the latest figures - 40 percent. The new directions by the Plenipotentiary General for Manpower are mostly foreigners and we lost a lot of German personnel which was called up. Specially the air industry being a young industry employs a great many young people who should be called up. This will be very difficult as is easily seen if one deducts these working for experimental stations. In mass production the foreign workers by far prevail. It is about 95 percent and higher. Our best new engine is made 88 percent by Russian prisoners of war and the other 12 percent by German men and women. 50 - 60 Ju 52's (a Junkers plane) which we now regard only as transport planes are made per month. Only 6 - 8 German men are working on this machine: The rest are Ukrainian women who have beaten all the records of trained workers.\"\nContinuing 10 pages later: \"The list of the shirkers should be entrusted to Himmler's trustworthy hands who will make them work all right. This is very important for educating people and has also a deterrent effect on such others who would likewise feel inclined to shirk.\"", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 272, "page_number": "", "date": "07 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-07", "text": "Then, going down to page 1913: \"Milch: It is, therefore, not possible to exploit fully all the foreigners unless we compel them by piece work or we have the possibility of taking measures 223A against foreigners who are not doing their bit.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 273, "page_number": "224", "date": "07 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-07", "text": "But, if the foreman lays hands on a prisoner of war or snacks him there is at once a terrible row, the man is put into prison etc. There are sufficient officials in Germany who think it their most important duty to stand up for human rights instead of war production. I am also for human rights. But if a Frenchman says: 'You fellows will all be hanged and the chief of the factory will be beheaded first' and if then the chief says 'I am going to hit him' then he is in a mess. He is not protected. I have told my engineers 'I an going to punish you if you don't hit such a man; the more you do in this respect the more I shall praise you. I shall see to it that nothing happens to you'. This is not yet sufficiently known. I cannot talk to all factory leaders. I should like to see the man who stays my arm because I can settle accounts with everybody who stays my arm. If the little factory-leader docs that he is put into a concentration camp and runs the risk of losing the prisoners of war. In one case two Russian Officers took off with an airplane but crashed. I ordered that these two men be hanged at once. They were hanged or shot yesterday. I left that to the SS. I expressed the wish to have them hanged in the factory for the others to see.\"\nField Marshal of the German air force, a man who had a soldier's book in the first page of a soldier's book, which he had from the time that he was a private until he was a field marshal, the statement saying:", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 274, "page_number": "225", "date": "07 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-07", "text": "\"Respect prisoners of war.\"\n(at the request of Dr. Bergold, the last statement was read by the reporter. )\nMR. DENNEY:We now come to the 54th meeting which starts at page 1 of Your Honor's Document Book. That appears in Document Book 3A, page 1. At this meeting Speer was absent and the defendant presides, and, although we have it in here at some length, there is only one more meeting after this one; I think it necessary for the record that all of this be read in because it shows the critical situation in which they found themselves as of this date. We have a record of Speer's conference with Hitler and the date, March 1, 1944. The clerk then can judicially notice the position in which the German Wehrmacht found itself and we have a statement of Field Marshal Keitel which was given at the first trial, which we will read into the record shortly. We have seen the defendants working on a program for labor for the first quarter of 1944 in Exhibit 51, and at this meeting the whole thing was threshed out.\n\"Sauckel: (This, incidentally, was the beginning of the meeting.) Field Marshal, Gentlemen, it goes without saying that we shall satisfy as far as possible the demands agreed upon by the Central Planning Board. In this connection I wish to state that I call such deliveries as can be made by the Plenipotentiary for Labor \"possible\" by stressing every nerve of his organization. Already on January 4th I had to report to the Fuehrer with the greatest regret that for the first time I was not in a position to guarantee delivery of the grand total of 4,050,000 men then calculated in the Fuehrer's headquarters for the year 1944. In the presence of the Fuehrer I emphasized this several times. In the previous years I Was able to satisfy the demands, at least with regard to the number of laborers, but this year I am no longer able to guarantee them in advance. In case I can deliver only a small number, I should be glad if those arriving would be distributed by percentage within the framework of your program. Of course I shall readily agree if I am now told by the board: Now we have to change the program; now this or that is more urgent. It goes without saying that we will satisfy the demands whatever they may be, to the best of our ability, with due regard to the war situation.", "speakers": [ "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 275, "page_number": "226", "date": "07 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-07", "text": "So much about figures.\n\"We have no reason to contest the figures as such, for we ask nothing for ourselves. We are not even able to do anything with the laborers we collect; we only put than at the disposal of industry. I only wish to make some general statements and ask for your indulgence.\n\"In the autumn of last year the supply program, inasmuch as it concerns supply from abroad, was frustrated to a very great extent; I need not give the reasons in this circle; we have talked enough about them, but I have to state: the program has been smashed. People in France, Belgium, and Holland thought that labor was no longer to be directed, from these countries to Germany because the work now had to be done. For months sometimes I visited these countries twice a month -- I have been called a fool who against all reason traveled around in these countries in order to extract labor. This went so far, I assure you, that all perfectures in France had general orders not to satisfy my demands since even the German authorities quarreled over whether or not Sauckel was a fool.\n\"If one's work is smashed in such a way, repair is very, very difficult. Now for the first time I have been reproached by officers stationed in the East, which was very hard on me, that it was the Plenipotentiary for Labor who did not extract enough men from the East during the last year and thus was responsible if now our soldiers had to fight against the same men wham I should have t ken away; for these had become an essential part of the Russian divisions.\"", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 276, "page_number": "227", "date": "07 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-07", "text": "\"Thus I have been reproached several times by front officers; and I wish to protest here and now. For the East last year was barred to me. In large areas I was forbidden to take anything from agriculture. I was told: You don't get any men since we have to organize agriculture here, the Donots area too was barred to me, and I was not allowed to extract anything. I had to struggle hard for every individual man whom I wished to extract from the East. Therefore I wish to state. expressly here and now that the reproaches made by the front that the men who I did not extract now fight on the side of the enemy are unjust, since I was entirely kept out of these areas. Such was the situation at the end of the year.\n\"At that time I was very much concerned: We discovered a decrease in the amount of labor employed. Today I am able to report that we stopped that decrease. According to most accurate statistics, which I had ordered, we have today again including foreign workers and prisoners of war, the same number of 29.1 millions which we had in September. But we have added nothing since that time. Thus we dispatched to the Reich in these two months no more than 4, 500 Frenchmen which amounts to nothing. From Italy only 7,000 civilians arrived. This, although from January 12 until today I have had no hour, no Sunday, and no night for myself. I have visited all these countries and traveled through the whole Reich. My work was terribly difficult, but not for the reason that no more workers are to be found. I wish to state expressly, in France and in Italy there are still men galore. The situation in Italy is nothing but a European scandal, the same applies to a certain extent to France. Gentlemen, the French work badly and support themselves at the expense of the work done by the German soldier and laborer, even at the expense of the German food supply, and the same applies to Italy. I found out during my last stay that the food supply of the northern Italians cannot suffer any comparison with that of the southern Italians. The northern Italians, that is as far to the south as Rome, are so well nourished that they need not work; they are nourished quite differently from the German nation by their Father in Heaven without having to work for their bread.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 277, "page_number": "228", "date": "07 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-07", "text": "The labor reserves exist, but the means of touching them have been smashed.\"\nOf course, there is a note at this time speaking of Italy. Italy had withdrawn from the war as of March 1, 1944.\n\"The most abominable point made by my adversaries is their claim that no executive had been provided within these areas in order to recruit in a sensible manner the Frenchmen, Belgians, and Italians and to dispatch them to work. Thereupon I even proceeded to employ and train a whole batch of French male and female agents who for good pay just as was done in olden times for 'shanghaiing' went hunting for men and made them drunk by using liquor as well as words, in order to dispatch them to Germany. Moreover I charged some able men with founding a special labor supply executive of our own, and this they did by training and arming with the help of the Higher SS and Police Fuehrer a number of natives, but I still have to ask the Munitions Ministry for arms for the use of these men. For during the last year alone several dozens of very able labor executives have been shot dead. All these means I have to apply, grotesque as it sounds, to refute the allegation there was no executive to bring labor to Germany from these countries.\"\nThe term \"executive\" is certainly peculiarily used here when he has to ask the SS and Police, or rather the armament Industry to give them weapons so that these executives may be safe in going about in their so-called recruiting of labor.\n\"I have to tell you, Field Marshal, after repeated inquiry, there is no longer a genuine German direction of labor. I have just issued the well-known proclamation which the Fuehrer himself had inspired, corrected, and adapted concerning voluntary honorary service. What success this step will have, I don't know yet; it will be very little. But I shall enlarge this voluntary honorary service. The Fuehrer wishes it to be administered by the Women's Service. Therefore, I shall go tomorrow and see the Women's Service and the Women District Leaders of the Women's Service of Germany in order to insist on the most extensive recruitment by the Women's Service of women above the ages of 45 and.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 278, "page_number": "229", "date": "07 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-07", "text": "50 years. Something will be attained in that way. There are quite good, beginnings in some of the districts. There are quite good beginnings in some of the districts. But recruitment must be continuous and uninterrupted, and such things need some time before they run smoothly. Out of the German labor reservoir, however, 60,000 new laborers have been found in the first two months of the year, and the start as a whole has functioned better than I expected. The grand total so far is 262,000. Of these from the East alone there are 112,000. Thus the satisfactory statement can be made that the authorities in charge of what remains of the occupied areas have acknowledged the fact that better results are expected if the available labor is used in Germany than if it is used abroad. The supply of these 112,000 new Eastern workers, mainly men, has made it possible for us to hope for arrival within the first two months of 262,000 workers.\n\"Then some words about the question of women's labor. I have asked one of my assistants to give you later a survey comparing the English regulations on the national service to women with the German ones. It is perfectly correct to state that England, even if we take into account the difference in the total number available, does not use as many of her women as we do. One ought to abstain therefore from the reproach which is still made against me, that we didn't do enough with regard to the use of women's labor. On January 4th I told the Fuehrer expressly and repeatedly; if he gave me the power to recruit laborers a la Stalin, I should be able to put at his disposal perhaps a million more women. The Fuehrer brusquely and repeatedly refused this. He used the expression that our German long-legged slender women could not be compared with the (Austrian dialect term for short-legged, used in a derogatory sense) and healthy Russian women. I, for my part, also wish to warn against setting too much hope on the usefullness to these woman. But I wish to ask you to be sure that I am doing everything in order to put to work everybody who is fit for work, as far as I am able to do within the frame-work of the Fuehrer's permission, and this by exercising some soft moral pressure as well.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 279, "page_number": "230", "date": "07 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-07", "text": "In the same way I have directed all my assistants to examine continuously the results of the action of January of last year concerning the duty to register and to make sure that the labor exchangers continuously find out and call up the women whose children grow beyond the age in question, and the girls who reach the age groups in question. Thus we do everything possible.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 280, "page_number": "231", "date": "07 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-07", "text": "In order to enable me to reach these numbers, two conditions must be fulfilled. First it is indispensable that all authorities which administer the occupied countries must recognize the necessity of fulfilling the demand for labor in the Reich. This so far is not the case everywhere. Especially the protected factories in the occupied countries make my work more difficult. According to reports received within the last days these protected factories are to a great part filled to capacity, And still labor is sucked up into those areas This strong suction very much obstructs our desire to dispatch labor to the Reich. I wish to emphasize that I never opposed the use of French labor in factories which had been transferred from Germany to France. I am still sound of mind, and as recently as last summer I charged Mr. Hildebrandt with an inquiry in France which had the following results: It would be easy to extract from French medium and small factories (80% of all French factories are small enterprises with only 36-40 working hours) - 1 million laborers for use in the transferred factories, and 1 million more for dispatch to Germany. To use 1 million within France should be quite possible unless the protected factories in France artificially suck up the labor completely and unless their number is continually increased, as happen according to my reports especially in Belgium, and unless new categories of works are continually declared protected, so that finally no labor is left which I may use in Germany. I wish here and now to repeat my theses: A French workman, if treated in the right way, does double the amount of work in Germany that he would do in France, and he has here twice the value he has in France.\nI want to state clearly and fearlessly: the exaggerated use of the idea of projected factories in connection with the labor supply from France in my submission implies a grave danger for the German labor supply. If we cannot come to the decision that my assistants together with the armament authorities, are to come-out every factor, this fountain of labor too in the future will remain blocked for the use of Germany, and in this case the program prescribed to me by the Fuehrer may well be frustrated. The same applies to Italy. In either country there are enough laborers, even enough skilled workers; only we must have enough courage to stop into the French plants. What really happens in France, I do not know. That a smaller amount of work is done during enemy operations in France, like in every occupied country, than is done in Germany seems to me evident.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 281, "page_number": "232", "date": "07 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-07", "text": "If I am to fulfill the demands which you present to me, you must be prepared to agree with me and my assistants, that the term \"protected factory\" is to be restricted in France to what is really necessary and feasible by reasonable men, and the protected factories are not, as the Frenchmen think, protected against any extraction of labor from them for use in Germany. It is indeed very difficult for me to be presented to French eyes as a German of whom they may say: Sauckel is here stopped from acting for German armament: the term \"protected factory\" means in France nothing but that the factory is protected against Sauckel. This is what the Frenchmen think, and they cannot be blamed for it; for they are Frenchmen and before their eyes the Germans disagree in their opinions and actions. To what degree the creation of protected works is expedient and necessary at all is not for me to decide. I can only state how the effect of creating them touches the work expected to be done by me. On the other hand, I have grounds for hoping that I shall be just able to wiggle through, first by using my old corps of agents and my labor executive, and secondly by relying upon the measures which I was lucky enough to succeed in obtaining from the French Government. In a discussion lasting five to six hours I have exerted from M. Laval the concession that the death penalty will be threatened for officials endeavoring to sabotage the flow of labor supply and certain other measures. Believe me, this was very difficult. It required a hard struggle to get this through. But I succeeded and now in France, Germans ought to take really severe measures, in case the French Government does not do so. Don't take it amiss, I and my assistants in fact have sometimes seen things happen in France that I was forced to ask, Is there no respect any more in France for the German lieutenant with his 10 men. For months every word I spoke was countered by the answer: But what do you mean, MR. Gauleiter, you know there is no executive at our disposal; we are not able to take action in France! This I have been answered over and over again. How then, am I to regulate the labor supply with regard to France. There is only one solution: the German authorities have to cooperate with each other, and if the Frenchmen despite all their promises do not act, then we Germans must make an example of one case, and by reason of this law if necessary put Prefect or Burgomaster against the wall, if he does not comply with the rules; otherwise no Frenchman at all will be dispatched to Germany.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 282, "page_number": "233", "date": "07 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-07", "text": "During the last quarter the belief in a German victory and in all propaganda statements which we were still able to make, has sunk below zero, and today it is still the same. I rather expect the new French ministers, especially Henriet, will act ruthlessly; they are very willing and I have a good impression on them. The question is only how far they will be able to impress their will on the subordinated authorities. Such is the situation in France. In Italy the situation is exactly the same, perhaps rather worse. We have no executive, we are told, and the Italian nation is morally so hopelessly corrupted that only pure force gives any hope for success.\nMoreover, I am insulted, and this grieves me most, by the statement that I was responsible for the European partisan nuisance. Even German authorities reproached me thus, although they were the last ones who have the right to make such statements. I wish to protest against this slander, and I can prove that it is not I who is responsible. From the General District of Kiev, and this from the town itself and the near surroundings I extracted 100,000 men for labor, and in Kiev there were no partisans. The Kiev district was the quietest of all. In 1942 and 1943 I hardly extracted one man from the Minsk District, and was not able to do so,since I was to a great extent barred from this district. The Minsk district, however, was the chief partisan area, and even a Gauleiter has been murdered there. If there had been no measures of labor supply, many more partisans would be in action than there are now; for there would be many more unemployed among the foreign nations. These countries are indeed not able to exist unless they produce the things which Europe wants from them, and since the planning of production for the whole of Europe is done exclusively and solely by Germany, all these nations are indebted to Germany alone and to nobody else for the fact that they have bread and work. The measures increasing the labor supply for Germany and the occupied countries therefore has the effect of giving useful work to gangs of unemployed men. If this had not been done, the gangs would have become partisans. Furthermore, partisan warfare has appeared in every Eastern revolution for centuries and Stalin did nothing but incorporate into his strategic plans in a masterly way the assistance offered by partisans of the Polish, Ukrainian, and other areas known from history.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 283, "page_number": "234", "date": "07 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-07", "text": "Similar considerations apply to France. I have been answered that such things never happened in France, that it was nothing but a consequence of German labor measures that these bands made their appearance there. To which I can only reply that those who say we obviously forget the whole of France's history, what happened in the 1870-71 war. Then too franc-tireurs operated in France. Even if there were no labor measures, the English would drop arms from their planes and would certainly find unemployed willing to pick them up.\nIndeed, we too commit mistakes, this is only human. I only intended to acquaint you, Air Marshal, with the actual difficulties used by enemy and German authorities alike to oppose the German labor measures. It goes without saying that the ideal solution would consist in transferring the whole of manufacturing in these countries and, as the saying goes, in bringing the work to the workers. Numerous German authorities, even such as had no connections with economics and labor supply, inquired of me, why do you fetch these people to Germany at all? You make trouble for this area and render our existence there more difficult. To which I can only reply, It is my duty to insist on it that labor supply comes from abroad, There is no longer a German labor supply. That the latter is exhausted I already proved by my ill-famed manifesto of April of last year. But I am not able to transfer the German soil to France. Nor can I transfer the German traffic to France nor the German mines. Nor can I transfer the German Armament works which still have to release part of their workers, if fit for war service, nor their machines.\nHere alone 2,500,000 men are in question as has been calculated in the Fuehrer conference. This is the flower of German workers who go to the front and must go there. I have always been one of those who says: if only energetic measures are applied in fetching labor from abroad, then we want to release in God's name everybody from armaments work whom we can, in order to strengthen our companies. The 1st and 7th Armoured Divisions are frequently mentioned in the War Report. I can only tell you that the number of soldiers killed in battle in some Thuringian villages has surpassed for some time already the number of soldiers killed in the World War, by twice that amount. This I mention in my capacity as Gauleiter.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 284, "page_number": "235", "date": "07 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-07", "text": "It is for this reason that we have to do our duty. The best kind of German men, and men in the prime of life, have to go to the front, and German women of more than 50 years of age cannot replace them. Therefore I have to continue to go to France, Belgium, Holland and Italy, and there will be a time again when I shall go to Poland and extract workers there as fit and as many of them as I can got. In this circle I only wish to urge that you spread it around that I am not quite the insane follow that I have been said to be during the last quarter of a year. Even the Fuehrer has been told so. It goes without saying that just this slander has had the effect that I was unable to deliver in the last quarter at least 1 1/2 million workers whom I would have been able to deliver as long ago as last year, had the atmospheric conditions been better. It was due to that \"artificial atmospheric screen\", that they did not arrive. I am aware that they simply have to arrive this year. My duty to the Fuehrer, the Reich Marshal, Minister Spear, and towards you, gentlemen, and to agriculture is apparent, and I shall fulfill it. A start has been made, and as many as 202,000 new workers have arrived, and I hope and am convinced to be able to deliver the bulk of the order. How the labor is to be distributed will then have to be decided according to the needs of the whole of German Industry, and I shall always be prepared to keep the closest contact with you, Gentlemen, and to charge the labor exchanges and the district labor exchanges with intimately collaborating with you. Everything is functioning if such collaboration exists.\"", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 285, "page_number": "236", "date": "07 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-07", "text": "MR. DENNEY:Then in reply to this we have a speech by the defendant:\n\"I now proceed to the important question where we will still be able to get greater amounts of laborers from you, and without a doubt the answer is, from abroad. I have asked Mr. Schieber to make a short appearance here in order to give his opinion on Italy. I agree with your statement, Gauleiter, that it is only the bad organization of our work abroad which is responsible for the fact that you can't do your job. Too many people meddle in your work. If someone tells you, there is no executive in France and Italy, I consider it an impudence, a foolish and stupid lie uttered by people who either are unable to think or consciously state an untruth. This kind of person is not interested in giving a clear lead in this respect and in analyzing the situation, probably because they are not smart enough. In this way, However, your work is rendered more difficult or frustrated, and all armament work at the same time. For we have it before our eyes what close relations exist between the situation in the occupied countries and that in the armaments industry. A more foolish policy can hardly be cancelled. in case the invasion of France begins and succeeds only to a certain degree, then we shall experience a rising by partisans such as we have never experienced either in the Balkans or in the East, not because this world have happened in any case, but only because we made it possible by not dealing with them in the right manner. Four whole age groups have grown up in France, men between 18 and 23 years of age, who are therefore at that ago when young people moved by patriotism or seduced by other people are ready to do anything which satisfies their personal hatred against us--and of course they hate as. These men ought to have been called up in age groups and dispatched to Germany; for they present the greatest manger which threatens us in case of invasion. I am firmly convinced and have said several times; if invasion starts, sabotage of all railways, works, and supply bases will be a daily occurrence, and then it will be really the case that our forces are no longer available to survey the execution of our orders within the country, but they will have to fight at the front, thereby leaving in their rear the much more dangerous enemy who destroys their communications, etc.", "speakers": [ "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 286, "page_number": "237", "date": "07 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-07", "text": "If one had shown the nailed fist and a clear executive intention, a churchyard peace would reign in the rear of the front at the moment the uproar starts. This I have emphasized so frequently, but still nothing is happening, I am afraid. For if one intends to start to shoot at that moment, it will be too late for it; then we have no longer the men at our disposal to kill off the partisans. In the same way, we are aware of the fact that their supply of arms in the west is rather ample since the English are dropping them from planes. I consider it an idiotic statement if you, Gauleiter, are accused of having made those men into partisans. As soon as you arrive, the men run away to protect themselves from being sent to Germany. Then they are away, and since they do not know how to exist, they automatically fall into the hands of the partisan leaders; but this is not the consequence of the fact that you wish to fetch them, but of the fact that your opposite number, the executive is not able to prevent their escape. You simply cannot act differently.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 287, "page_number": "238", "date": "07 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-07", "text": "\"The main crux of the problem is tho fact that your work is made so extremely difficult, and this is why you cannot deliver the 4,000,000 workers. As long as it is feasible for these men to get away and not be caught by tho executive, as long as the men are able not to return from leave and not be found out on the other side, I do not think Party Comrade Sauckel, that you will have a decisive success through employing your special corps. The men even then will be whisked away unless quite another authority and power is on the watch, and this can only be the army itself. The army alone can exercise effective executive. If some say they cannot do this kind of work, this is incorrect for within France there are Training Forces stationed in every hole and corner town and every place which could all be used for this work. If this would be done in time, the partisan nuisance would not emerge, just as it would not have done in the East if we had only acted in time. Once i had this task at Stalingrad. At Taganrog there were then 65,000 men of the Army, and at the front one lieutenant and six men were actually available for each kilometer, and they would have been only too glad if they had 20 to 30 for their assistance. In the rear there great masses of men who had retreated in time and squatted down in tho villages, and who now were available neither for fighting at the front nor for fighting the partisans. I am aware that I am placing myself in opposition to my own side, but I have seen such things happen everywhere, and can find no remedy but that the army should assert itself ruthlessly. You, Gauleiter Sauckel, the Reich Marshal and the Contral Planning Board ought to report on this question to the Fuehrer, and then he ought to decide at the same time on the duties of the Military Commanders.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 288, "page_number": "", "date": "07 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-07", "text": "There ought to be orders of such lucidity that they could not be misunderstood, and it is then that things will be in order. It never can be too late to do so, but these duties and this work will be more difficult to perform with every passing day. The same applies to Italy as well.\"\nAnd then Schiever speaks:\n\"The Gauleiter sometime ago discussed this question in detail with General Leiers, and they succeeded in reaching quite a comprehensive agree 238(a) ment.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 289, "page_number": "239", "date": "07 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-07", "text": "In my opinion there are still a considerable number of people in Italy who could be extracted there, especially if it is possible, which is not for me to decide, to increase vastly the method, so much recommended by your collaborators of transferring whole firms. It was only a few days that 200 to 400 non were transferring together with very little difficulty. I am favor ing this method especially for tho reason tint in my opinion it will nip in the bud any tendency to take to the woods and to become partisans. Where the Plenipotentiary for Labor transfers the entire personnel of a firm, this personnel is being transferred as an entity this also presupposes the existence of some human solidarity between the members of the entity. The Gauleiter will meet even more difficulties in the transfer of these Italians than he has to overcome in France because the Italians have extraordinarily strong family ties. We notice this fact more all the time. One has to meet these difficulties half-way. On the whole we of the production branch in Italy are quite willing to extract laborers from Italy. Our collaboration with your office: is functioning without friction. We attach special importance to our desire that these workers for whom we no longer have work in Italy, ought not to be left to loaf about for too long, but ought to be caught and sent to Germany. Outside the protected factories, too, there still remains in Italy a relatively vast reservoir of labor, and if this reservoir is drawn upon in the way arranged by the Plenipotentiary for Labor by the poeple from the armaments authority, and by our special commissioner, if especially the problem of transfer of wages is solved, I consider tho transfer of a nice amount of labor from Italy as being quite possible, I should be glad, however, if right from the beginning any discussion by offices concerned or not concerned with it, about the possible consequences of the action should be prohibited; such a discussion could only disturb the peaceful development of production in Italy.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 290, "page_number": "", "date": "07 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-07", "text": "\"SAUCKEL: I wish to insist on combing out the protected factories in the future also for the protected factories are working like a suction pump; and since it is known everywhere in Italy and France that every worker if 239(a) he works in a protected factory is protected against any attempt of mine to extract him, it is only too natural that the men are pouring into these factories.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 291, "page_number": "240", "date": "07 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-07", "text": "How difficult my task becomes thereby is proved by the following fact. I intended to extract from Italy a million workers within the quarter ending may 30th. hardly 7,000 arrived in the two months which expired so far. This is indeed the difficulty. The bulk enters the protected factories, and only the chaff remains for my purpose to send them to Germany. At least I hope to accomplish that with regard to larger enterprises as tho number of protected factories is restricted in Italy, that is, the number of protected factories, will not be further increased.\nOn the proceeding page, the quarter reading \"May 30th\" should read \"March 30th\" \"SAUCKEL:\nThis indeed is the decisive question, the one we are dealing with now. If half of the program for four million workers to be brought to Germany, this means two million , cannot be fulfilled, the employment of labor in Germany will fall off this year. The more useful workers however, are in France, and of course in Italy too, employed in the protected factories. Therefore, if I an not to touch the protected factories which are situated in these countries, this will have the effect that the loss valuable workers instead of the more valuable type will arrive in Germany. And here we have to ponder about what is in fact more important and expedient. If we give up using these people in Germany, where we effectively rule the factories, where moreover, we keep to a different labor discipline and reach better labor results than in France proper, then we give up the valuable kind, and then I shall only be able to transport to Germany the less valuable kind of people who still can be found on the streets of France or Italy,or people like waiters, hairdressers, small folk from tailor shops, etc.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 292, "page_number": "", "date": "07 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-07", "text": "\"MILCH: What is the percentage of protected factories in Italy compared with the whole of Italian Labor?\nSCHIEBER:I think 14, but I have not got the figures here.\n\"MILCH: Would not the following method be better? We could take under 240(a) German administration the entire food supply for the Italians and tell then:", "speakers": [ "SCHIEBER" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 293, "page_number": "241", "date": "07 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-07", "text": "only he gets any food who either works in a protected factory or goes to Germany:\n\"SAUCKEL: True, the French worker in France is better nourished than the German worker is in Germany, and the Italian worker too, even if he doesn't work at all , is better nourished in the part of Italy occupied by us than if he works in Germany. This is why I asked the German food authorities over and over again to improve also the food of the German worker introducing the \"factory sandwich.\" When I am in Paris of course I go to Maxim's. There one can experience miracles of nourishment. He still thinks that in these countries only very rich men can go to Maxim's, are well provided with food. Thereupon I sent my assistants to the Paris suburbs, to the estaminets and lunch restaurants and was told that the Frenchmen who eat there did not feel the shortage caused by the war to any degree comparable with what our nation has to experience. The average French citizen too can still buy everything he wishes.\n\"Interruption: this is still more so in so all places.\n\"Yes. Moreover, the Frenchman can pay for what he can get. Therefore he has no reason for wishing to go to Germany in order to get better food. Thus unfortunately is the case.\nMILCH:Is there nothing we can do? True, we might not be able to control the distribution to the customer, but we ought to be able to intervene at an earlier stage of distribution.\n\"KOERNER: he have requested from France really immense amounts of food; these requests have always been fulfilled; often after some pressure, but they have been fulfilled.\n\"MILCH : But there is a simple remedy; let us cease supplying the troops from Germany, but tell them to provide the food for themselves from Franco. Then in a few weeks they will have everything eaten up, and then we can start distributing the food to the Frenchmen.\n\"KOERNER: In France there still as for the time being a rationing system.", "speakers": [ "MILCH" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 294, "page_number": "242", "date": "07 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-07", "text": "The Frenchmen and his ration card in which he receives the minimum. The rest he provides in other ways, partly by receiving food parcels which we cannot touch at all. Every year we increase our food demands to the French Government who always satisfied them, though very frequently yielding to pressure, and in proportion to the harvest results, were they good or bad. In Italy the situation is that food is not rationed at all. The Italians can buy and eat what he wants, and since an Italian has always money and deals in the Black Market, he is in a much better situation than our German worker who practically has nothing but what he get on his card.\n\"MILCH: But don't we even send food to Italy?\n\"KOERNER: We are exchanging certain goods.\n\"SAUCKEL: Moreover we are now at the point that the families of French and Italian workers are no longer in a better position owing to the money transfer if their bread-winning members are working in Germany than if they remain abroad; now nothing remains to induce them to go to Germany.\n\"MILCH: And the second question is this: will it be possible at all to catch and transfer the 80% who are not employed in protected factories considering the lack of a so-called executive and divergence of opinions with regard to that problem.\"\nThere seems to be some variation here, your Honor. If we may have a moment we will see if we can clear it up.\nTHE PRESIDENT:It's so near recess time, if you would like to do it during that time --", "speakers": [ "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 295, "page_number": "", "date": "07 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-07", "text": "MR. DENNEY:Very good, sir.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The tribunal will recess until one thirty.\nTHE MARSHAL:All persons in the courtroom will arise. The Tribunal will recess until 1330 hours.\n(A recess was taken until 1330 hours)\n242(a) AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1330 hours, 7 January, 1947.)", "speakers": [ "THE PRESIDENT", "THE MARSHAL", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 296, "page_number": "243", "date": "07 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-07", "text": "MR. DENNEY:If Your Honorsplease, with reference to the 53rd meeting of the Central Planning Board, which we were discussing, there seems to have been some slight error in the translation, so we will suspend with the reading of that at the bottom of page 1816 of German original, which is page 12 of Your Honors' Document Book 3--A, Exhibit 48A in evidence. We are endeavoring to have the proper pages made and delivered to defense counsel.\nTHE PRESIDENT:I think you misspoke. It is the 54th meeting? is it not?\nMR. DENNEY:I am sorry. Yes? Your Honor? it is the 54th meeting. We will have those pages from there on restencilled and retranslated and offer them at a later time. However? the part as far as we have gone is correct.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Where does it stop?\nMR. DENNEY:On Page 12 of Book A, just after the first Sauckel speech? which is the first speech above the notation 1824 on the lefthand margin.\nNow? the Exhibit 5, about which there was so much trouble? has finally been redone and retranslated. This is from Document Book 1-A, and because of the difficulty in the pages, it now contains nine pages, which we will submit to Your Honors for each of your document books. As a matter of convenience we have labelled the pages 14-A through I, and respectfully request that Your Honors insert these instead of Pages 14 through 18 which you presently have in your document book 1--A. These are 14-A through I, and we have put the pages on each one of the papers which Your Honors have. These will be substituted for the present Exhibit 5 in evidence which appears in Your Honors' Document Book 1--A. We believe that we have sufficiently covered the background material with reference to this so that it will not be necessary to read from this document.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Can you tell me offhand that the pages are for which these are to be substituted?\nMR. DENNEY:Yes? sir; 14, 15, 16, 17, 17-A, 17-B, and 18. The reason we did it this way is because some of these pages had to be inserted in the middle and we thought it was easier.", "speakers": [ "THE PRESIDENT", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 297, "page_number": "244", "date": "07 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-07", "text": "Now directing Your Honors' attention to the results of the 54th meeting of the Central Planning Board which appear -- or rather, the results of the 53rd meeting, which we mentioned just to call Your Honors' attention to them - they appear in Document Book B Page 37. These are the results of the 53rd meeting, which has already been covered. That was the meeting held 16 March, Your Honors' attention is directed to Page 40, a rather impressive list of people who were in attendance at the meeting.\nThen in Document Book A, Page 38, at the bottom of the page, there is a note on a Hitler conference Document Book 3-A Page 3* at the bottom of the page there is a note on the Hitler conference, which was prepared by Saur and seen by Speer. The conference was held on the 5th of March, a few days after the meeting which we have just referred to. This note was prepared on the 6th of March, and the defendant was at the conference. The note provides:\n\"Told the Fuehrer of the Reich Marshal's wish for the further utilization of the production power of prisoners of war by giving the direction of the Stalag, that is the camp, to the SS, with the exception of the English and the Americans. The Fuehrer considers the proposal good and has asked Colonel Von Belo* to arrange matters accordingly.\"", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 298, "page_number": "245", "date": "07 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-07", "text": "MR. DENNEY:The next reading of a document occurs in Document Book No. 2.\nTHE PRESIDENT:May I interrupt you, Mr. Denney,\nMR. DENNEY:Yes, sir.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Was this the first date at which the camps were turned over to the SS?\nMR. DENNEY:This is the first date that we have any note of so far as these people are concerned, Your Honor. These camps that I refer to here it is submitted are the lator camps. These are not the concentration camps.\nTHE PRESIDENT:That clears it up.\nMR. DENNEY:No, no, the concentration camps at all times were under the SS.\nTHE PRESIDENT:That is what I understood.\nMR. DENNEY:Yes, sir.\nTHE PRESIDENT:And the stalags refer only to labor camps?\nMR. DENNEY:Yes, sir, in this instance, and the word \"stalag\" is used for any kind of camp, a prisoner of war camp, and obviously here the labor camps also apply, and the prisoner of war camps; that is where they are getting it, and that they do accept the American and the English, they do except those and all the others, yes.\nThe Document No. 1297, which appears at page 65, which is in Document book 2-B, this will become Exhibit No. 53, page 65 in Document Book 2-B, is a letter of 9 March 1944, Sauckel to Dr. Lammers.\nDR. MILCH:It is not clear as to what the German designation is?\nMR. DENNEY:I believe you will find that at page 111 of the German book. Do you have it Dr. Milch?\nMR. DENNY:This letter is dated, \"Berlin 8 March 1944.\" It is written from Sauckel, the general Plenipotentiary for Labor, and to the Reich Minister and Chief of the Reich Chancellory, Dr. Lammers. It reads: \"Your Excellency, Reich Minister:\nI have the privilege of informing you that in spite of the greatest difficulties, in the period from 1 January until 6 March of this year, inclusive, altogether 303 124 now - i.e. not previously introduced into the labor market nonfluctuating laborers have been assigned to the German war economy.", "speakers": [ "THE PRESIDENT", "MR. DENNY", "MR. DENNEY", "DR. MILCH" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 299, "page_number": "246", "date": "07 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-07", "text": "This figure includes 89 390 German men and women 164 096 foreign workers 49 638 prisoners of war.\nThe German workers are persons discharged from the Wehrmacht, and other formations, newly recruited workers, women who were not gainfully employed before, youths who are employed for the first time, and finally persons who heretofore were independent.\n(signed) Fritz Sauckel.\"\nThe next is the documentNOKW 017, which appears in Document Book 2-C. I believe it is the final document in that book. It begins in Your Honors' book at page 110 of Document Book 2-C, and in the German translation it begins at page 182. This is offered as Prosecution's Exhibit No. 54. This is a copy of a speech made by the defendant in his capacity as Chief of the Jaegerstab. The Court will also bear in mind that he was also chairman, as well as Geuleiter, at the conference with Air Force engineers and Chief Quartermasters on 25 March 1944. The speech is very long and I will only read parts of it into the record. On page 110, beginning:\n\"Field Marshal Milch: Gentlemen. I welcome you. I have called you together here in order to discuss with you questions of importance for our German defense.\" And then dropping down to the end of the first paragraph, the last full sentence but one: \" -- We do have in our employ today approximately 60% foreigners, and 40% Germans, whereby one has to take into consideration that the 'women work in the factories only half a day. Therefore, the ratio of Germans to foreigners become considerably more unfavorable. The ratio is gradually approaching 90% foreigners with 10% German managers The rest of the Germans are concentrated in development factories and the like.\"", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 300, "page_number": "247", "date": "07 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-07", "text": "The next quotation appears on page 113, at page 5 of the original speech. I don't know -- the full paragraph starts on that page with the word \"The Jaegerstab.\" \"The Jaegerstab is made up as follows: The direction is in the hands of Reich Minister Speer and myself.\" I don't think we have to go into any further statement by the defendant to the effect that he was along with Speer, the head of the Jaegerstab, and, I would like to bring to the Court's attention something that appears at the very top of page 6 of the original, which appears on page 114 of Your Honor's text.\n\"The evacuation under ground will be in the hands of SS Gruppenfuehrer Hammler.\" It is the heading with that quotation following: \"The evacuation underground will be in the hands of SS Gruppenfuehrer Hammler,\" and Mr. King will come forward to present the Jaegerstab part of the case which will follow, and in reference to that it will be apparent why that was made.\nThen at page 7 of the original, and at page 115 of Your Honors' Document Book, Milch when speaking about how these Jaegerstab tours are made by himself and his staff when going to the various plants, speaks as follows. The sentence starts out, Mr. Interpreter, \"On the spot.\"\n\"On the spot the individual gentlemen are then told -- supported by the combined authority of the State, the Wehrmacht, and the party, that is, Sauer and me, Speer is unfortunately still on sick leave, otherwise he would also be present.\" Sauer is not in the Army. Speer is not in the Army. Sauer was deputy to Milch in the Jaegerstab, and was also a man who was in charge of an armament program on a large schedule for the Army and the Navy in the years preceding this.\nThen at the bottom of page 8 of the original. Sentence at the beginning of the paragraph. \"Then there is still the human factor\" it should be, Dr. Milch.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 301, "page_number": "", "date": "07 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-07", "text": "DR. MILCH:Yes.\n247- A", "speakers": [ "DR. MILCH" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 302, "page_number": "248", "date": "07 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-07", "text": "MR.DENNEY: \"Then there is still the human factor. We often had considerable difficulty with the human factor. The fluctuation there is very considerable. The quota of the Luftwaffe in the distribution of manpower was constantly lowered. The foreigners run away. They do not keep any contract. There are difficulties with Frenchman, Italians, Dutch.\"", "speakers": [ "MR." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 303, "page_number": "249", "date": "07 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-07", "text": "The prisoners of war are partly unruly and fresh. The people are also supposed to be carrying on sabotage. These elements cannot be made more efficient by small means. They are just not handled strictly enough. If a decent foreman would sock one of those unruly guys because the fellow won't work, then the situation would soon change. International Law cannot be observed here. I have assorted myself very strongly, and with the help of Sauer I have represented the point of view very strongly that the prisoners, with the exception of the English and the Americans should be taken away from the military authorities. The soldiers are not in a position, as experience has shown, to cope with these fellows who know all the answers. I shall take very strict measures here and shall put such a prisoner of war before my court martial. If he has committed sabotage or refused to work, I will have him hanged, right in his own factory. I am convinced that that will not be without effect.\"\nHere we have him speaking on the 25th saying that he will have people who refused to work, who are prisoners, not the Americans or the English -- no, he's afraid of them -- the same words that he used telling of what he had done in the 53rd meeting where he had two Russian officers who were working in one of his plants, who escaped or tried to escape, whose plane crashed, and who he ordered to be hanged or shot by the SS. To says at the time, \"It was done yesterday. He didn't know which.\n\"Anyhow, the strongest things occur in the treatment of the workers. It is said that the people collapse, and then one has to find out that they have a furlough of three or four days every eight weeks. That is dirty business of the first order, and treason to the country. Then perhaps a construction battalion arrives and is supposed to be put to work. The commanding officer, perhaps some overfed grade school teacher, declares that the men must drill and must take part in sports. Damn it, the fellows are there to work so that the maximum amount of work will result. One has to act very strictly here.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 304, "page_number": "250", "date": "07 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-07", "text": "A construction battalion was ordered to Regensburg. The commanding officer was one of those scholars she said he could not billet the men in peace time conditions, therefore he refused to start to work. Such a guy should be convicted by a court martial and hanged. I would be grateful if the gentlemen would proceed in that manner. As with me in industry, so every stupidity is possible everywhere else. As chief, one has to take up these matters. I know what kind of obstacles become apparent. There is bureaucracy. It is not easy to go against bureaucracy. But we have to cut through that also, and if you gentlemen proceed in the right attitude here, we are already assured of success.\"\nThe next occurs on Page 128 of Your Honor's book, which is Page 22 of the German original. I don't have the page of the German translation. It's in the middle of a page and the paragraph in which it is starts out with the word \"Gentlemen\". However, there are two references to 20 percent in the paragraph just ahead of it. I think Dr. Milch has it. Perhaps he on give it to you.\nDR.MILCH(Acting Defense Counsel): I have it; 3200.\nMR. DENNEY:He says, \"In saying this, I do not even consider the fact that the workshops have first-class personnel; whereas we in the Luftwaffe armament inductry have Russians, French prisoners of war, Dutch, and members of 32 other nations.\"\nThe next quotation appears on the bottom of Page 133, which is the last full paragraph on Page 33 of the original speech. The paragraph starts out. \"I further ask for support by the Luftwaffe physicians.\" That is Page 133 of the Document Book. It's the last paragraph on the page, on the very bottom. That is Page 207 in the German book.\n\"I further ask for support by the Luftwaffe physicians. With all the rabble that we have among the foreign workers, there is of course a lot of skirking. At the moment the Russians -- that is, the Russian prisoners of war -- are feigning a lot of fatigue and illness. The incidence of sickness of one a half to two percent which we have had up to now has at least doubled and in some factories it has been increased to eight, nine and ten percent.", "speakers": [ "DR.", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 305, "page_number": "251", "date": "07 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-07", "text": "That is, of course, done by previous agreement. There the official physicians must undertake an examination and if the physicians, who have to be very strict, find out that it is not true, then we return the fellows to work by means of the whip. Then the whip serves as a cure.\"\nField Marshal in the Luftwaffe handling prisoners of war with a whip because they won't work in something they are forbidden to work in by the Geneva and Hague Conventions.\nPage 143 of Your Honors' document book; it's the latter half of Page 43 in the original part of the speech and the first part of 49, and the conclusion of the Field Marshal's origin I remarks. It's just ahead of the speech starting by Sauer. Find out where Sauer speaks, then you can go back ahead of it one paragraph. The sentence starts out: \"Let everyone consider that if he does not do his duty.......\" It's before Sauer; the first full paragraph, and then up about three sentences, and then the paragraph before that.\n\"Let everyone consider that if he does not do his duty, we do not ask whether there is a law; we ask only that he is the responsible one and that we will seize him no matter who he is. We also get this help from the other offices, but from you as comrades of the Luftwaffe, we expect to receive the first help and the strongest help. That is your honor-bound duty. That is the foundation upon which the Luftwaffe stands. That is the justification for existence for you and for us all.\n\"Please go whereever you are going and knock everybody down who blocks your way. We cover up everything here. We do not ask whether he is allowed to or whether he is not allowed to. For us, there is nothing but this one task. We are fanatics in this sphere, be do not even consider letting anything at at all distract us from that task.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 306, "page_number": "252", "date": "07 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-07", "text": "No order exists which could prevent me from fulfilling this task. Nor shall I ever be given such an order. Now, do not let anything hinder you, and get your people to the point that no one hinders them. If there is a little hindrance from below, this is not due to ill-will, but to stupidity. Gentlemen, in the fifth year of war, stupidity is punishable.\"\nAnd the last quotation occurs on the last page of the speech, which is Page 155 in Your Honors' Document Book, starting out: \"Gentlemen, I know not every subordinate can say: for me, the law no longer exists, but he has to have someone who covers up for him, not out of cowardice. But if you act according to the spirit of the old field service regulation, \"Abstaining from doing something hurts us more than erring in the choice of the means,\" and if, moreover, you keep in touch and immediately clarify difficult points, so that something can be done, then we are willing to accept the responsibility, whether this is the law or not. I see only two possibilities for me and for Germany: either we succeed and therby save Germany, or we continue these slipshod methods and then get the fate that we deserve. I refer to fall, while I am doing something that is against the rules but that is right and sensible, and be called to account for it, and if you like, hanged, rather than be hanged because Papa Stalin is here in Berlin, or the Englishmen. I have no desire for that. I would rather die in a different way. But I think we can accomplish this task, too. We are in the fifth year of war. I repeat: The decision will come during the next six weeks. Heil Hitler.\"\nThe next document is a Hitler conference of April 9, 1944 which appears in Document Book 3 A at Page 39. This is a memorandum prepared on 9 April 1944: Minutes of the Discussions with Hitler of the 6th and 7th of April. It's on Page 39 of Your Honors' Document Book 3 A. The memorandum is prepared by Speer.\n\"Suggested to the Fuehrer that, due to lack of builders and equipment, the second big building project should not be set up in German territory, but in close vicinity to the border on suitable soil (preferable on gravel base and with transport facilities) on French , Belgian or Dutch territory.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 307, "page_number": "", "date": "07 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-07", "text": "The Fuehrer agrees to this suggestion if the works could be set up behind a fortified zone. For the suggestion of setting this plant up in French territory speaks mainly the fact that it would be much easier to procure the necessary workers. Nevertheless, the Fuehrer asks an attempt be made to set up the second works in a safer area, namely in the Protectorate. If it should prove impossible there too to get hold of the necessary workers, the Fuehrer himself will contact the Reichsfuehrer SS\"--speaking of Himmler--\" and will give an order that the required 100,000 men are to be made available by bringing, in Jews from Hungary. Stressing the fact that the building 252-A organization of the (Industriegemainschaft Schlesien Silesia) was a failure, the Fuehrer demands that those works must be built by the Organization Todt exclusively and that the workers should be made available by the Reichsfuehrer So. He wants to hold a meeting shortly in order to discuss details with all the men concerned.\"", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 308, "page_number": "253", "date": "07 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-07", "text": "", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 309, "page_number": "254", "date": "07 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-07", "text": "MR. DENNEY:If your Honors plea so, this refers to the construction of some airplane plants.\nDR.MILCH (Acting Counsel for the Defendant): May I point out that that document is not complete in our Document Book. We would also like to ask what was the exhibit number of it.\nMR. DENNEY:Dr. Milch, I might state at this time that Books 3-A and B were all offered under No.R-124and bear Exhibits No. 48-A and 48-B. Now as to the compete note made by Speer, Dr. Bergold, Counsel for the Defendant, is at liberty to go over to the Document Room and examine the German original. It has been the custom - that complete translations are not made and the complete document is not offered in view of the great bulk which would thereby be placed before the Court. That procedure has been followed up to this time in this trial and also before the International Tribunal.\nDR. MILCH:I ask only because part of the document was read of which I had no copy in German and I had presumed only parts would be road of which I had a copy.\nMR. DENNEY:I am extremely sorry. I didn't know you had not a copy.\nDR. MILCH:The copy that I have is not complete.\nDR. DENNEY:We will endeavor to see if we have the original in German here.\nIf your Honors please, I would like the record to show that the complete exerpt which was read was shown to the defendant's counsel and that the German translation apparently stopped a few lines short of the exhibit which was read. We will furnish defendant's counsel with a complete translation this evening.\nI will direct your Honors' attention to the figure 100,000 Hungarian Jews which appears in the note of this conference. When we go into the Jaegerstab case that figure applying to those nationals will be again called to your Honors' attention.", "speakers": [ "DR.", "DR. DENNEY", "MR. DENNEY", "DR. MILCH" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 310, "page_number": "", "date": "07 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-07", "text": "The next and last meeting of the Central Planning Board with which we are concerned is the 58th Meeting which appears on page 14 and 15 of your Honors' Document Book - Document Book 3 A, pages 14 and 15. That is page 29 in the 254-A German book.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 311, "page_number": "255", "date": "07 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-07", "text": "It starts out with Pleiger talking:\n\"Pleiger: Will you please look at the diagram no. 3, it shows the whole personnel in the pit-coal mines. There you can see at what time we began using foreign labor. That was at the end of 1941. Furthermore, you can see how, consequently, the use of German labor declined and the share of the eastern workers and the Russian Ps/W rose. On the top is added a further large proportion of Italians. But if you take the next diagram on the number of scheduled personnel and the number of actual personnel you can see clearly how steeply the curve drops; the same with lignite. It would be necessary to find here some means of improvement. If you note that 800,000 Russian Ps/W are working at places in Germany where Italians could be used just as well, it would be possible to transfer from among these 800,000 Ps/W about 150-320,000 people to the mines. Italians are of no use in the mines; the Italians cannot stand it, they are physically not strong enough, it won't even work if strong arm methods are used. The Russians, however, are developing excellently, particularly if they are fed in a way. In any case such a solution should be tried. If the situation in the West deteriorates, if we can do no more in Belgium and the North of France we shall be able to overcome the difficulties in Lorraine and Luxembourg only by a very big increase in the direction of labor to the Ruhr region.\"\n\"Kehrl: I believe there are 2 possibilities to solve the difficulties. Contrary to Pleiger, I believe that we cannot do entirely without the Italians and especially because we can procure trained Italian miners. We have stopped practically all mining in central Italy because we have no transportation for the material anyhow. As far as the Italians there who worked as miners are concernethey should be transferred and used sensibly in our mining industry, because the physical strain in Germany is not substantially different from that in Italy. We could free at least 20,000 miners. Perhaps one could adjust the proportion between lignite and pit--coal by transferring miners accordingly. Of course, we would then have to x-ray the Ps/W. By an exchange system something could be achieved.\"", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 312, "page_number": "256", "date": "07 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-07", "text": "And then go over to page 1468 - Kehrl again:\n\"Kehrl: Will you please look at page 29 of the report. You can see from it how the reduction which represents a considerable amount, has been worked out. The reductions are: among the Germans 4½%, among the foreigners 5%; and among the recruited.\n\"Pleiger: These are Bulgarians, Hungarians, Belgians, etc. They do not stay put as a matter of course. It is impossible to make them stay. \"K \"Kehrl:\nThey go away their time expires. Among the eastern Ps/W workers one reckons with a lossof 20% of the total, among Did IMMT\".......\nIMMI - I don't know what that means.\n\"with a 40% loss.\n\"Pleiger: Among the eastern workers the loss has increased so much because we received these people from the land. They were with farmers before they were sent to the mines. When they came from the farmers each of them had a package containing sausage, bacon and bread, etc. In this way the farmers thought they would return to them. In fact, the result was staggering in favor of agriculture. The people simply cannot be kept in the mines in the long run. If they have once been on the land, they leave us again. This tendency is to be noted all along the line, in the Ruhr even worse than in the Upper Silesian region.\n\"Rohland: Is there no possibility of sending all foreign fugitives to educational camps for 2-3 months? About 30 to 40,000 people per month would be involved. These are quite considerable figures. The result of the education is phantastic. I have the firm conviction that these people could be used in the mines.\n\"Speer: We shall consider that later.\"\nAnd 1481, Speer speaking:\n\"Speer: Now, the labor problem in Germany. I believe it is still possible to transfer some from the western territories. The Fuehrer stated only recently he wishes to dissolve these foreign volunteers as he had the impression that the army groups were carting around with them a lot of ballast. Therefore, if we cannot settle this matter ourselves, we shall have to call a meeting with the fuehrer to clear up the coal situation, Keitel and Zieitzler will be invited to attend in order to determine the number of Russians from the rear area territories who can be sent to us.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 313, "page_number": "257", "date": "07 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-07", "text": "However, I see another possibility; we might organize another drive to screen out workers for the mines from the Russian Ps/W in the Reich. But this possibility is none too promising.\n1483, Speer continues:\n\"Speer: We have to come to an arrangement with the Reichsfuehrer SS as soon as possible so that Ps/W he picks up are made available for our purposes. The Reichsfuehrer SS gets from 30 to 40,000 men per month. First of all, they have to be divided up. From what classes do these people come anyhow. There certainly is a certain percentage of miners among these people who are picked up. These few thousand men have to go to the mines , automatically. Certainly, some educational work has to be done. The men should be put into the factories as convicts. But they have to return to the factories were they were before. Furthermore, we could perhaps bring the people from agriculture to the mines. A great numer leave, and the people do not go the mines, but do home.\"", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 314, "page_number": "258", "date": "07 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-07", "text": "The next document is a Sauckel report which is No. 208-PS, which appears at Page 66 of Your Honors' Document Book 2-B and at Page 112 of the German Document book. The Exhibit No. is 55.\nTHE PRESIDENT:What is the document number please?\nMR.DENNEY: 208-PS. It appears at Page 66 of Document Book 2-B and it is the second item on the second page of the index appearing in Document Book 2-A. The report of Sauckel of 7 July 1944 on the accomplishments of labor employment in the first half of the year. Dated Berlin 7 July 1944. It goes to the highest Reich authorities, the Reich leader of the NSDAP, the highest offices of the army, and all Gauleiters.\n\"In the annexed I have listed the total results of the manpower which has been placed at the disposal of the German war effort by the German labor employment offices in the first half year of 1944. It deals only with such manpower which was not yet employed in the German war effort.\n\"Owing to the plan of this year for 4,050,000 laborers, 2,000,000 now workers were to be employed in the first half year. Because of increased difficulties in Italy and in the occupied Western provinces, a million less than the goal was achieved unfortunately. Despite the known difficult situation 1,500,000 people wore able to be mobilized in the first half year, this is solely due to the exertion of all possible energy.\n\"Since the call of 17 February 1944, Around 62,000 women have reported for \"Voluntary honorary service\" of which already 52,000 have been employed\".\nSigned by Sauckel, and the table below indicates the disposal of these two million people, part of which we have seen that they requisitioned as of January 1944. The total for all industries was 1,482,000. There 848,000 citizens, 537,400 foreigners, 96,600 prisoners of war. These in the first group which were employed in agriculture and forestry, 231,000. Of these, 156,000 were foreigners.", "speakers": [ "MR.", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 315, "page_number": "", "date": "07 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-07", "text": "In mining, 46,000 of whom 34,000 were foreigners. In the metal industry, 415,000 of whom 250,000 were foreigners. The remaining industry, 790,000 of whom 194,000 were foreigners. The foreigners came from the following territories: from the occupied eastern provinces, 258-A 284,000; the General Government of Poland 52,000; the Protectorates of Bohemia and Poravia, 23,000; France, excluding northern France, 33,000; Belgium, including northern France, 16,000; the Netherlands, 15,000; Italy, 37,000; from the rest of Europe, 77,400 The next document is 3829PS, which appears in Document Book 2-B. It is just after the last document which was offered in evidence.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 316, "page_number": "259", "date": "07 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-07", "text": "It is at Page 68 in the English book and Page 114 in the German book. We offer this as Exhibit 56, page 68, in the English document book and page 114 in the German book. It Is a report of Lammers on the Hitler conference dated -If Your Honors please, this appears to be the wrong document. I will withdraw that at this time. It appears on page 75 . It is improperly indexed in Your Honors' book. It appears on page 75, not on page 68.\nIt is a report by Lammers dated 12 July, 1944 on a conference held 11 July, and the list of those present starts on the preceding page. It is to be noted that the defendant was present. \"Participating in the executive conference were the departmental chiefs and representatives indicates in the attached lists of those present. No guarantee can be given for the absolute completeness of the lists, as all participants did not sign.\n\"Reich Minister Dr. Lammers reported by way of introduction on the various proposals at hand by the Plenipotentiary for Labor Commitment that serve the purpose of bringing about the increase in labor commitment in Germany which is absolutely essential for winning the final victory.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 317, "page_number": "260", "date": "07 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-07", "text": "He limited the theme cf the discussions by saying that actually all possibilities were to be examined by which the present deficit of foreign manpower could be covered, for example the question of the reestablishment of an acceptable price and wage scale between the Reich and the extra-German territories. But the primary consideration will have to remain the solution of the question whether and in what form greater compulsion can be exerted to accept work in Germany. In this connection it must be examined how the executive forces, regarding the inadequacy of which the Plenipotentiary for Labor Commitment raises lively objection can be strengthened, on the one hand through an influence on the foreign governments and on the other through building up the indigenous administration (Executive), whether by an increased use of the Wehrmacht, of the police, or of other German agencies. Reichsminister Dr. Lammers then gave the floor to the Plenipotentiary General, for Labor Commitment, Gauleiter Sauckel.\n\"Gauleiter Sauckel stated that the present deficit in the matter of the half-year program of 2,025,000 foreign workers, to be fulfilled by 30 June of the current year, amounted to 500,000 workers. Of the total of 1,500,000 workers procured up to now, no less than 365,000 were Germans, of whom half were apprentices and women, both of which categories cannot be regarded as workers of full value. Of the 560,000 foreigners who wore put to work, three-quarters came from the East alone. This result is a scandal in contrast to the German people who are incorporated in the labor process to the greatest extent, and it represents the complete bankruptcy of German authority in Italy and France, where hundreds of thousands cf workers were still idling. In executing the labor commitment we did not exert the necessary severity and in particular we were not able to achieve the necessary unity of the German authorities. It would not do for German authorities to interfere irresponsibly with the tasks of the GBA (Plenipotentiary for Labor Commitment). The latter must have much greater freedom of action, as was the case in 1942.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 318, "page_number": "261", "date": "07 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-07", "text": "With the present methods of recruitment for voluntary commitment we will not make any progress, for one thing because the volunteers still at hand exposed themselves to danger to life and limb from reprisals by their own fellow countrymen. If, on the other hand, they were forcibly obligated and decdently treated in their work, they did completely satisfactory work. The treatment of the wage and price questions connected with the subject was desirable, but in the present situation no longer so important. If it were not dealt with now, then our labor commitment program would fail, with the consequence that the fighting forces no longer could receive the arms they need.\n\"State Secretary von Steengracht, Foreign Office, stressed that the Reich Foreign minister from the beginning had favored the same standpoint as the Plenipotentiary General for Labor Commitment. The Foreign Office could, however, do nothing besides urging the foreign governments mere or less intensively to fulfill the German demands, which had been done consistently up to the present. The executive is in the hands of other offices which therefore would new have to express themselves on the subject of the conference.\n\"The Deputy of the Head of the OKW, General Warliment, referred to a recently issued Fuehrer order, according to which all German forces had to place themselves in the service of the work of acquiring manpower. Wherever the Wehrmacht was, and was not employed exclusively in pressing military duties (as, for example, in the construction of the coastal defenses), it would be available, but it could not actually be assigned for the purposes of the GBA. General Warliment made the following practical suggestions:\n\"The troops employed in fighting partisans are to take over in addition the task of acquiring manpower in the partisan areas. Everyone who cannot fully prove the purpose of his stay in these areas is to be seized forcibly.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 319, "page_number": "262", "date": "07 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-07", "text": "\"When large cities, due to the difficulty of providing food, are wholly or partly evacuated, the population suitable for labor commitment is to be put to work with the assistance of the Wehrmacht.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 320, "page_number": "263", "date": "07 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-07", "text": "\"The seizing of labor recruits among the refugees from the areas near the front should be handled especially intensively with the assistance of the Wehrmacht.\n\"Gauleiter Sauckel accepted these suggestions with thanks and expressed the expectation that certain successes could there-with already be achieved.\n\"On behalf of the military commander of Belgium and Northern France. The chief of the Military Administration, Raeder, put up for discussion the possibility of expansion of the Feldgendarmerie, at the time comprising only 70 men, and of the civilian searching service (Fahndungsdienst) consisting of Flemings and *alloons (1100 people). If the Feldgendarmery was strengthened to 200 men appreciable searching results could be accomplished. At the inquiry of Reichsminister Dr. Lammers, General Warlimont agreed for the OKW to his strengthening of the searching service.\n\"On further inquiry by the Reichsminister Dr. Lammers, whether with the withdrawal of the troops the population suitable for recruiting could not be taken a long. Colonel Saas (Plenipotentiary General for Italy) stated that Fieldmarshal General Kosselring had already decree that the population in a depth of 30 kilometers behind the front area was to be \"captured.\" This measure could, however, not be extended to areas situated farther behind the lines as thereby the sharpest shocks would occur in the whole structure of these areas, especially in regard to the industry not fully employed in production.\n\"Gauleiter Sauckel was of the opinion that widest circles of the Wehrmacnt saw in the labor recruiting program something disreputable. It has actually occurred that German soldiers had endeavored to protect the population from being taken by the German labor service. Therefore an instruction of the fighting forces on the extraordinary importance of Labor recruiting seemed necessary. In opposition to the much too mild German method, it was part of the Bolchevist conception of war, when occupying territories immediately to have the fighting troops commit the whole population to labor.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 321, "page_number": "", "date": "07 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-07", "text": "The question of administration (Executive) thus was not one of 263-A mass recruiting, but of being consistent.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 322, "page_number": "264", "date": "07 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-07", "text": "One must finally proceed to establish examples, the passive resistance would quickly change into active cooperation. One ought also not to shrink back from proceeding with drastic moans against the administrative heads (Behordenleiter) themselves who sabotage the labor commitment. Not the small refractory offenders should be punished, but the responsible administrative heads. In addition to these compulsory measures, other means too must be applied. The thought should be taken for the removal of a great part of the remaining exceptional Italian harvest in order to improve thereby the rations of the German and foreign workers. A special problem was presented by the entirely insuffcient alimentation of the Italian military internees who were almost starving. The Fuehrer should be asked to have the statute for these military internees gradually altered. No inconsiderable working energies would be released thereby.\n\"Reichsleiter Dr. Ley underscored these statements and suggested the establishment of a searching office made up of all German forces in the extra German territories, that would carry out the ruthless enrollings in large areas.\n\"Against these proposals, doubts were expressed:\n\"Reichsminister Funk anticipates from ruthless raids considerable disturbances of the production in the extra-German territories. The same opinion is held by the Chief of the military administration of Italy. Stqatssekretaer Dr. Landfried, who considers the German forces comprised in the executive body as too small and fears that the Italian population will escape the seizure in great numbers and will flee into uncontrollable regions.\n\"Reichsminister Speer stated that he had an interest both in spurring on an increased labor recruiting for the Reich and also in the maintaining of the production in the extra-German territories. Up to the present 25 to 30 percent of the German war production had been furnished by the occupied \"Western territories and Italy, by Italy alone 12½ percent.\n\"The Fuehrer recently decided that this production must be maintained as long as possible, in spite of the difficulties already existing, especially in the field of transportation.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 323, "page_number": "265", "date": "07 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-07", "text": "The executive is well in a position in the opinion of Reich Minister Speer, to seize sufficient foreign workers with its present strength, as a relatively small number of executive men are sufficient for this purpose. All that is needed are stricter orders, but no violent measures nor large scale raids may be carried out. One should, rather, proceed with clean methods step by step.\n\"For the military commander in France, the military administration chief Dr. Michol referred to the statements of State Secretary Dr. Landfried and advanced the opinion that the situation in France was similar. The calling up of entire age classes is prepared in France, but has not yet begun, as the German military authorities have not yet been able to give their consent. The good will of the highest French authorities cannot be doubted but it is in part lacking among the lower and middle authorities. These and the persons willing to work expose themselves, with a loyal attitude toward the German authorities, to reprisals by the French population.\n\"Ambassador Abetz confirms these statements. The application of severe measures, such as the shooting of French functionaries, into the Marquis. In these territories, in which the Wehrmacht is employed anyway, some 10,000 more workers would doubtless be seized. Then those same German forces could be employed for executive measures, which would also turn up large numbers of workers. In Paris, the evacuation of which was considered 100,000 to 200,000 workers could be seized. In this connection, entire plant communities might be transplanted.\n\"The chief of the security police Dr. Kaltenbrunner declared himself willing, when asked by the GBA, to place the security police at his disposal for this purpose, out pointed out their numerical weakness. For all of France he had only 2,400 men available. It was question be whether entire age classes could be seized with these weak forces. In his opinion, the Foreign office must exercise a stronger influence on the foreign governments.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 324, "page_number": "266", "date": "07 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-07", "text": "\"State Secretary von Steengracht (Foreign Office) commented on this. The agreements made with the foreign governments were entirely sufficient. The governments had always been willing, on the request of the Foreign Office, to issue the corresponding orders. If these orders were not carried out, this was due to the inadequate executive of the foreign governments themselves. In France this was bad for political reasons, being reduced to a minimum. In Italy there was no longer an executive in actuality. The Foreign Office was willing at any time, he said, to exercise stronger pressure on the foreign governments, but did not expect too much from that. State Secretary von Steengracht asked Ambassador Rahn to comment on this for Italy.\n\"Ambassador Rahn believes that there is still a sufficient number of workers in Italy, so that in theory 1 million could still be taken out, although 2/3 of the Italian territory had been lost with respect population also. He had always been in favor of the system of drafting age classes. This was, until before the fall of Rome, in general successful, as can be seen from the fact that 200,000 Italians could be seized for military purposes. Since that time the situation in Italy has become extremely difficult, however, since the fall of Rome was an enormous shock to the Italian people. The German authorities, had attempted to intercept the effects and united the entire executive in the person of Marshal Graziani. At present, however, the use of violent methods on A large scale is not possible since that would cause complete disorder and interruption of production. The best example for this is the retaliatory action ordered by the Fuehrer because of the strikes in Turin, through which 10% of the personnel were to be seized as unwilling to work. 4,000 German forces were collected for this purpose. The result was that the food supply to Turin was cut off by the resistance movement and the supply of energy was interrupted, so that 250,000 workers had to starve. This could not be justified in view of the considerable contribution to the war of the Italian armament industry.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 325, "page_number": "", "date": "07 June 1947", "date_iso": "1947-06-07", "text": "General Field Marshal Kesselring declared that a continuation of forced obligations would cause nor only the loss 266- A of the armament production in the upper Italian area, but the loss of the entire theater of war.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 326, "page_number": "267", "date": "07 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-07", "text": "In the face of this statement the hardest political will must keep silent. The only thing which could happen would be the execution of the forced obligations in the rebellious area proper. Ambassador Rahn believes the following practical suggestions could be carried out:\n\"The recruitment of volunteers is to be continued.\n\"To a limited extent plants are to be transferred to the Reich with machinery and workers.\n\"The transmittal of salary savings of the Italian workers in Germany to their homeland, which is not operating well, is to be safeguarded.\nFor this purpose an automatic procedure is to be introduced which Ambassador Rahn had already proposed in another connection.\n\"The system of the induction of ago classes will be reintroduced when the German military authorities consider the time ripe.\n\"In answer to the reported remark of General Field Marshal Kesselring, General Warliment (OKW) commented that this remark was unknown to the OKW. The OKW's approval of this standpoint could therefore not yet be assumed.\n\"Gauleiter Sauekel declared that all these proposals were inadequate since they were net suited to set into motion the masses of manpower which he needed. The execution of all these proposals had already been tried in practice since the labor commitment authorities had at no time limited themselves to the method. He still had to call it seriously damaging to the execution of the labor commitment that his far-reaching competencies and powers had been made the subject of discussion. Wheat heneeded, as already said, was \"elbow room\".\n\"At the suggestion of Reich Minister Dr. Lammers, Gauleiter Sauckel declared himself willing to set up several programmatic demands on which he wants to vote with the participants and which than are to be submitted to the Fuehrer with a request for acknowledgment and legalization. A written formulation will follow. For the time being the GBA present his demands as follows:", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 327, "page_number": "268", "date": "07 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-07", "text": "\"The proposals of General Warliment will be discussed directly among the participants and will be executed together.\n\"The GBA receives permission to establish national security and recruitment machinery for labor commitments, which will operate on the basis of orders and directives of the GBA without need of interference by other offices.\n\"The regulations made by the French and Italian authorities in regard to German labor commitment are to be fortified by concrete execution regulations which guarantee the most active collaboration of foreign authorities in the acquisition of manpower.\n\"Reich Minister Dr. Lammers, having made these statements closed the meeting by pointing out that he would leave the further treatment of the problem, as proposed, to those concerned.\"\nI request that we recess, Your Honor.\nTHE PRESIDENT:I was just about to suggest it. The Tribunal will recess for fifteen minutes.\n(A recess was taken)", "speakers": [ "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 328, "page_number": "269", "date": "07 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-07", "text": "MR. DENNEY:If Your Honors, please, at this time we would like to offer as an additional part to our 124, which we are now distributing to the Court and defense counsel, is to be placed in the rear of Document Book 1B.\nTHEPRESIDENT: 1B, Mr. Denney\nMR. DENNEY:I am sorry, 3B. It is an additional Central Planning Board report. It has to do with the 30th meeting. Actually only the first two pages are necessary. The second page has to deal with the 31st, so it will only be the first two pages. They will be counted pages 42 and 43 of Document Book 3B; which is Exhibit 48-B in evidence; these are offered merely for the first paragraph on the page 42 which says first the copy of the results of the 30th meeting of the Central Planning Board on January 26, 1943. The first paragraph provides: \"Reichsminister Speer informed the meeting that Field Marshal Milch, on account of special duties entrusted to him by the Fuehrer, was prevented for some time from being present at the meetings, and has asked him to act as his representative in the Central Planning during his absence\".\nWe would like also to direct the Court's attention, without reading the matters in question, to two other portions of Exhibit 56, in evidence, which is 3819-PS, the 1 st volume--or the 1 st document in Volume 21. The first appearing on page 68, which is page 131 of the German book B, being a letter from Saukel to Hitler, dated Paris 17 March 1944; and the second which is on page 72 of Your Honors' Document look, and page 123 of the German Book B, being a letter from Speer to Hitler, dated 5 April 1944. This again has to do with this same business of procurement of labor for the year 1946I believe the Court his enough before them on this subject without going into the altercation between Saukel and Speer. On the other matter, however, I did want to call Your Honors' attention to the matter in passing.", "speakers": [ "MR. DENNEY", "THE", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 329, "page_number": "270", "date": "07 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-07", "text": "The next document isF-824which appears on page 82, which is the first page in Document Book 2C. This is offered as Prosecution Exhibit number 57. This appears in the German book at page 136. It is an order of Field Marshal von Kluge, Commander-in-Chief West, dated 25 July 1944. This letter again shows to what extent the power of this Central Planning Board in the recruitment of labor was carried. We have heard them talk of the Wehrmacht, we have seen representatives of the Wehrmacht at their meetings, and now we see the Wehrmacht itself in passing out an order based on labor recruitment. It is to be noted at the top that the subject is \"Procurement of labor in the West.\n\"Chief of the OKW is ordered: The communication of 8th July for General Field Marshal von Kluge, addressed to the Reich Minister for Armament and War Production, crossed with my order of the same day.\"\n\"From this it is evident that, by order of the Fuehrer, with reference to the suspension of contradictory orders, the wishes of the Plenipotentiary for labor and of Reich Minister Speer, must, on principle, be carried out. Further to my teletype, the following additional general instructions apply in future, as a result of the conference of ministers in the Reich Chancellery on with July, about which the Commander-in-Chief West will be informed by the Military Commander: Rejecting justified misgivings with regard to peace and security in the interior of the country, seizures must be carried out wherever the opportunities, referred to in my above mentioned teletype, offer themselves.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 330, "page_number": "271", "date": "07 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-07", "text": "As the only limitation, the Ruehrer has ordered that no forcible means shall be employed against the population in the actual combat area as long as it shows itself prepared to assist the German armed forces. However recruiting of volunteers from among refugees from the combat zone is to be carried out vigorously. Moreover, every means is justified to seize as much labor as possible, apart from the powers granted to the armed forces.\n\"In order to render as effective as possible the measures which have been introduced, the army is further to be instructed in general as to the necessity of the organizations for conscription of labor in order to put an end to the open and covert resistance which has arisen in many instances. The field commanders and the offices of the Military administration must give wide support to the representative of the Plenipotentiary for labor and to refrain from encroaching on his sphere of activity.\n\"In accordance with this, Commander-in-Chief West has reported the following to the Chief of the OKW on 12 May 1944:\n'I have authorized the execution of the Sauckel-LavalAgreement of 12 May in spite of misgivings because of interior security. I will issue more explicit directives for the execution of the measures in the combat zone in accordance with OKW/WFST/AU. Signed, the Commander-inChief West, von Kluge, General Field Marshal.\"\nNow, this is the only one of these orders that we have been able to find, but it is to be presumed that they were probably issued by other theaters. As I say, this is the only one we have.\nI neglected to offer the decree which establishes the Central Planning Board, which is 1510-PS and appears at Page 32 of your Honors' document book 2A. I think Your Honors arc thoroughly familiar with what the Board did, what its powers were from other documents which have been read, but we offer this at this time as Exhibit 56.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 331, "page_number": "", "date": "07 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-07", "text": "271a This appears at page 51 of the German Book 2A page 40I beg your pardon, at page 32 to 39.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 332, "page_number": "272", "date": "07 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-07", "text": "actually this is a Decree of October 29, 1943 concerning the dividing of tasks in tic War Economy. It is a Speer Decree and generally outlines what that pertains to. I have already offered the Decree establishing the Board. This particular Decree establishes the so-called Planning Board within the Central Planning Board --- the Planning Office and your Honors have had some material on that before this time. This is this complete document. The document immediately before that in Book 2A, which is NOKW269 which is an outline of the defendant's life which he has prepared maybe in Book B in your Honor's book. I am not sure. There was some trouble in the binding. In my copy it appears at page 29 and 30 in Book 2A.NOKW 269at the top.\nTHE PRESIDENT:It is on page 29.\nMR. DENNEY:In tho German it nay be in Book A.\nDR. BERGOLD:No. Book B.\nMR. DENNEY:This is an English translation. Actually this was prepared by tho defendant in English. I believe that is correct, is it not true, Dr. Bergold? This was prepared by the defendant in English?\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Is it Exhibit No. 59, Mr. Denney?\nMR. DENNEY:Exhibit 59, yes, if your Honors please. I think that document speaks for itself and there is no reason to road any part of it in tho record. Then there is another document 1666-PS which appears at page 48 of your Honors Document Book 2 3 which is at page 85 to 87 of tho German book.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The number again , please, Mr. Denney?\nMR. DENNEY:No. 1666-PS, if your Honors please. We offer this as exhibit 60 -1666-PS.", "speakers": [ "MR. DENNEY", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 333, "page_number": "", "date": "07 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-07", "text": "It is on page 48 of Document Book 2 3, page 85 to 87 of the German Book. Page 48 and 49 of your honor's Book. It is Hitler's order to Sauckel giving authority to get out an Ordinance implement and is signed by Scoring as Reichsmarshal.\n272(a) The order is dated 21 Larch 1942, and the order implementing i signed \"by Goering is dated 27 Larch 1942.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 334, "page_number": "272", "date": "07 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-07", "text": "How, at page 99 Document Book 3 C, which is -", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 335, "page_number": "273", "date": "07 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-07", "text": "THEPRESIDENT: 2 C, Mr. Denney, you mean?\nMR.DENNEY: 2 C, yes, sir, at page 174 of the German Book. Document NONA 247 which we offer as Prosecution's Exhibit No. 61.\nExhibit 61, which is Document NONW, No. 247 is a Goering Directive from Berlin - June - There is no date after -- on the copy which I have. I think it can be presumed that it is 1944 in view of the contents of the document, entitled \"Authorization\". As your Honors will recall, it was in June that the first landings were effected across the English Channel on territory then held by the German Army.\n\"The war situation calls for the utmost intensification of the armament capacity of the German Air Force within the shortest time. The goal of the measures to be taken has to be the fourfold of the present production in all branches of Air Force Armament. I commission the State Secretary of the Aivation Ministry, General Field Marshal Milch with the speediest execution of this intensification of armament ordered by the Fuehrer. To secure the attainment of the end at which we aim I confer herewith the most extensive power of authority on General Fieldmarshal Milch within the spheres defined a s follows:\nShutting-down and seizure of factories, decisions about expropriations and forced leases, seizure and expropriation of construction material in agreement with the GB-Construction, erection of auxiliary buildings exempted from restricting provisions of the building police, of the office for the supervision of industry, of Air Raid Protection, social institutions etc.", "speakers": [ "MR.", "THE" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 336, "page_number": "274", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "as far as these provisions arc incompatible with the fast completion of the building projects.\nConfiscation, expropriation and renting of machinery of all kinds and its distribution to the armament factories of the Luftwaffe. Forced transfer of workers who are unemployed or employed in industry of any kind whatsoever, this not only for the erection of buildings but also for allocation to Luftwaffe Armament factories.\nConfiscation of raw materials is absolutely essential for the Luftwaffe program; only superfluous raw materials may then be distributed in the manner as now. This refers especially to light metals and gasoline.\nRemoval and transfer of key personnel of the entire armament industry irrespective of existing contracts under private law, cancellations of, or changes in, existing powers of authorization, and issue of now powers, creation of industrial associations, patent associations, merger of companies, creation of now companies, separation of uneconomically working firms and their co-ordination or subordination to better managed firms.\nDeviation from existing regulations about the financing of the war and premiums in cases whore the utmost intensification of output con not be achieved otherwise. In this connection due consideration has to be given to the economical situation and to the financial capacity of the firms involved.\nAll decisions of, and all measures taken by my plenipotentiary on the basis of this authorization have to be regarded as if they wore ordered by me.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 337, "page_number": "", "date": "07 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-07", "text": "Those decrees and measures have priority in respect to all other official directions and decrees as far as these arc not compatible with the speediest execution of the intensification of the production capacity.\"\nDR. BERGOLD:If you please I should like to ask Mr. Denney to find out whether this order - this decree was signed as there is no signature on the German copy.\n274 a", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 338, "page_number": "275", "date": "07 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-07", "text": "THE PRESIDENT:Did you got that, Mr. Denney?\nMR. DENNEY:I think what he asked is whether this was signed because there is no signature shown on the German copy.\nINTERPRETER:He wanted to know whether the signature was on the German original. It is not on the German copy.\nMR. DENNEY:If Your Honors please, I believe the copy which we have was not signed.\nDR. BERGOLD:Thank you.\nMR. DENNEY:If Your Honors please, at this time I would respectfully request that we adjourn. There arc some of these papers which I would like to re-arrange slightly.", "speakers": [ "MR. DENNEY", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "INTERPRETER", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 339, "page_number": "276", "date": "07 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-07", "text": "This in substance presents all except an interrogation and some excepts of the transcript from the initial case and an affidavit or two. We now have all of tho documents except these which appear in Book 2, A, 3 and C in evidence. We have worked this morning until four o'clock endeavoring to ct the next document book ready. It isn't as yet ready. It has to do with the Jaogerstab which, roughly takes in the activities of the defendant from the period of March until approximately August of 1944. We hope to got this ready for tonight and I don't knew whether or jot Dr. Bergold is willing to waive the 24 hour service on it. If he is we may be able to finish it tonight and probably proceed in the morning. Dr. Bergold has told me that he has to be a witness in court in an automobile accident case to which he was a witness. I believe the court is in Furth and tomorrow morning he is going to request that the defendant's brother again be allowed to act as counsel.\nTHE PRESIDENT:That permission, of course, will be granted. We might ask Dr. Bergold now. If you do not receive the next document back until tomorrow morning will you raise the objection that you have not had the required 24 hour notice or will you be willing to proceed?\nMR. DENNEY:I might state for Dr. Bergold's information that this book contains principally items having to do with meetings or the Jaogerstab; if that's any help to you.\nDR. BERGOLD:The Tribunal: It is far from no to cause any kind of difficulties and I know myself that when my turn comes I also often have to ask for the cooperation and kindness of the prosecution and naturally I am ready to continue negotiations without keeping to the 24 hour period I merely beg to take the liberty of being absent tomorrow during the first half as I have boon summoned to court and according to German law must follow this summons.", "speakers": [ "MR. DENNEY", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 340, "page_number": "277", "date": "07 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-07", "text": "THE PRESIDENT:Well, it's understood, Dr. Bergold, that you are excused from attending the Tribunal tomorrow as long as you arc required to be a witness in the other Court.\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes.\nTHE PRESIDENT:I take it also then that you will not object to proceeding tomorrow naming with a now document bock.\nDR. BERGOLD:No, that's agreeable to no.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Let no take this opportunity also to advise both counsel that the members cf this Tribunal have been asked to go to Berlin on Thursday se that tomorrow will be the last sessions cf the court this week. No will return in time to resume sessions on Monday at the usual hour but both counsel will have Thursday Friday, Saturday and Sunday in which to adjust themselves and perhaps get a little sleep. No will recess now until 9:30 tomorrow morning.\nMR. DENNEY:Thank you, your Honor.\nTHE MARSHAL:All persons will arise. The Tribunal will recess until 0930 tomorrow.", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "MR. DENNEY", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 341, "page_number": "278", "date": "08 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-08", "text": "Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the Matter of the United. States of America against Erhard Milch, defendant, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on g January 1947, 1945 hours, Justice Toms presiding.\nTHE MARSHALL:Military Tribunal Number 2 is now in session. God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal. There will be order in the Court.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Mr. Denney.\nMR. DENNEY:If Your Honor please, in introducing Document No. 1510-PS, which is Exhibit 58, and appears in Document Boon 2-A, starting at Page 32, there is one short excerpt at the bottom of Page 38 which I should like to read. It appears in the German translation three paragraphs before the end, and it follows Arabic Numeral 4. It starts out, \"The planning office --\" It appears on Page 49 of the German, and it is the paragraph in the middle of the page after Number 4. - It is on Page 50, paragraph number 4, second paragraph on the page.\n\"The Planning Office will have to submit to Central Planning for decision the proposed assignment of manpower to the individual big sectors of employment (trade economy on war work, traffic, foodstuffs, etc.). It also has to evaluate statistically the carrying through of the assignments.\"\nTHE PRESIDENT:Mr. Denney, we have not found the place.\nMR. DENNEY:I'm sorry, sir. It is at the bottom of Page 38.\nTHE PRESIDENT:All right.\nMR. DENNEY:Just one short paragraph at the bottom. Sorry. The next exhibit which we offer isNOKW 311, Prosecution Exhibit Number62. It appears at the first page of document book 2-B, page 44 of Document Book 2. This is a partial excerpt from an interrogation conducted on 6 September 1946 of Hermann Goering:\n\"Q. Now, to the Milch case. Who was commissioned after 1941 with the labor employment in the ministry for Air?\n\"A. What am I to understand by 'labor employment'?\n\"Q. Labor employment consisted of the drawing in of foreign workers or German workers, especially of concentration camp inmates, in order to free them for air force production.", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHALL", "MR. DENNEY", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 342, "page_number": "279", "date": "08 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-08", "text": "\"A. This matter wont through Udet, the Chief of Supply for tho Air Force until Udet's death, and then it went through Milch.\n\"Q. In what manner did the Reich Ministry for Air submit its requests to Sauckel and the approximate figure for its requirements, tho number of workers, etc? And if Sauckel received such a request from the Reich Ministry for Air, how did he undertake the distribution?\n\"A\". The requests were made by Milch; it was he who said how many workers the air force needed, and these were forwarded to Speer. Speer then asked Sauckel for the workers for the entire armaments branch, almost for the entire industrial branch, and he then made the distribution. It was he in tho end who trade the final decision as to how many workers went to tho air force, for instance, how many for the Army, etc. As far as I know, Sauckel had actually nothing to do with the distribution of labor. The contingent was put at tho disposal of the authorities. Terrific pressure was continually brought to bear on Sauckel. If the requested number was not brought, he was given hell. I personally presided over a meeting where there were differences between Sauckel and Speer. He wanted to have more, etc. There was a mix-up, and that is how I know it; but the needs of the air force wore put forward by Milch, that is, tho Chief of the Supply for the Air Force. When difficulties arose and they did not get tho people and the program threatened to break down, then they came to me, and I supported their demands.\"", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 343, "page_number": "280", "date": "08 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-08", "text": "THE PRESIDENT:Mr. Denney, this was an extra judiciary interrogation wasn't it? This was not testimony but it was a statement?\nMR. DENNEY:Not testimony, no sir. It is an interrogation conducted on the late Hermann Goering, after the conclusion of the trial, and prior to the time that the judgment was announced.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Dr. Milch is speaking through the microphone.\nDR. MILCH:May it please the Tribunal, I would request Your Honors not to take this interrogation, as a basis, the contentscare incorrect, the witness Goering is dead, and can no longer be cross examined, thus it is impossible to prove the falsehood of the minutes in this manner.\nMR. DENNEY:Your Honor, please.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The Tribunal is ready to rule, Mr. Denney. This raises the same objection as was proposed in the previous case. I will repeat because counsel for the defense was not listening. This objection is the same one as was urged by Dr. Bergold day before yesterday on which the court ruled. Consistent with that ruling, and under the broad powers relating to evidence in the Charter in the Ordnance, this exhibit will be admitted. Its credibility, of course, and weight to which it is entitled being reserved for the consideration of the Tribunal.\nMR. DENNEY:The next document which becomes Exhibit No.63, is found at page 51 in Your Honors' Document Book 2-B, the one which Your Honors have just been looking at, and it appears at page 91 in the German translation. It is Document No.NI-1098, an affidavit of fritz Sauckel made 23 September 1946. The Prosecution offers this as Exhibit No. 63.\nDirecting Your Honors' attention to page 54, the third paragraph of that page, it is on page 3 of the original affidavit, and. it is a paragraph which is No.L-l, L (love) 1:\n\"The Central Planning Board (Zentral Planung) intervened in the problem of foreign workers only the extent of determining priorities and as in representing and demanding the requirements of the economic branches consolidated in the Central Planning Board. It also represented these demands to the Fuehrer. The competent gentlemen of the Central Planning Board at the same time of course represented their Ministries as Vorstand.", "speakers": [ "MR. DENNEY", "THE PRESIDENT", "DR. MILCH" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 344, "page_number": "281", "date": "08 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-08", "text": "Thus I am not in a position today to whether Speer, for instance, spoke in any particular capacity in connection with any special matter. At any rate the Central Planning Board determined the total labor requirements.\nIn practice I only obtained labor for them.\n\"I attended sessions of the Central Planning Board only when questions concerning the mobilization of labor were involved. Sometimes only my representatives, Dr. Timm, Landrat Berck, Stothfang, or Dr. Hildebrandt attended.\n\"The competent gentlemen from Speer's Ministry also attended. Speer had a labor mobilization department where the requirements of industry were collected and confirmed.\n\"Milch producted the figures for aviation. The same was done by Spoor in his sphere of activity. Spoor and Milch, however, also exerted influence on the allocation of workers. How far this came within their capacity as members of the Central Planning Beard I cannot say; in any case they did this in their ministerial capacity.\"\nThe next Document is No-1177, which immediately follows this one is on page 58 of your Honors' Document Book and appears at page 100 of the German translation. That is, Exhibit No.64 is Document No. No-1177, which is a parti 1 excerpt of the transcript of the trial before the International Military Tribunal. The witness is Max Timm, Deputy to Sauckel of the General Plenipotentiary for Labor. He is being examined on direct examination by Dr. Servatius, this is page 10839 of the original transcript referred to before.\nQ.What was the position of the Central Planning Board towards Sauckel?\nA.The Central Planning Board was an agency of the Four-Year Plan. Its task was, as far as the G.B.A. (that is General Plenipotentiary for Labor) was concerned, to collect the demands for workers of the big users of labor and at regular sessions to adjust these demands.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 345, "page_number": "282", "date": "08 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-08", "text": "Since the Plenipotentiary General for Labor commitment could not judge the information of the commitment of the workers for the various sources, this question was decided in the Central Planning Board. An attempt was made, for various periods of time, for as long a time as possible to work out a balance of the workers--\".\nYour Honors will recall that the name \"Timm\" appeared frequently in the minutes which went into yesterday and the day before.\nThe next exhibit is No.NO-1174, which appears at page 46 of the document book in which Your Honor is presently reading. It is at page 83 of the German original. This will be Exhibit No. 65, the Document No.NO-1174. It is an excerpt from the judgment of the International Military Tribunal commenting with reference to Walter Funk: \"In the fall of 1943--\"\nDR. MILCH:What page is that, please?\nMR. DENNEY:Dr. Milch, it is at page 83 of the German original.\nDR. MILCH:Proceed, sir.\nMR. DENNEY:The exhibit number is No. 65. This is page 17015 of the original transcript, being part of the judgment of the International Military Tribunal in the case of United states in the case against Hermann Goering and. other's.\n\"In the fall of 1943, Funk was a member of the Central Planning Board which determined the total number of laborers needed for German industry, and required Sauckel to produce them, usually by deportation from occupied territories. Funk did not appear to be particularly interested in this aspect of the forced labor program me, and. usually sent a deputy to attend the meetings, often SS General Ohlendorf, the former Chief of the SD inside of Germany, and the former Commander of Einsatzgruppe D. But Funk was aware that the Board of which he was a member was demanding the importation of slave laborers, and. allocating them to the various industries under its control.\"\nThe next document is No.NO-1180, which appears in Document Book 2-A at page 40, and which is at page 51 of the German origin, and the Prosecution offers this as Exhibit No. 66, at page 40 in the Document Book 2-A, it being 282-A Document No.NO-1180, and it appears at page 51 in the German translation.", "speakers": [ "MR. DENNEY", "DR. MILCH" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 347, "page_number": "283", "date": "03 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-03", "text": "It is an excerpt from the judgment of the International Military Tribunal, pages 17098 to 17161, starting at the second paragraph on page 40 in Your Honors' book; that will be the second paragraph in the German translation. It starts out with the words, \"As Reich Minister for Armaments.\"\n\"As Reich Minister for Armaments and Munitions and General Plenipotentiary for Armaments under the Four Year Plan, Speer had extensive authority over production. His original authority was over construction and production of arms for the OKH. This was progressively expanded to include naval armaments, civilian production and finally, on August 1, 1944, air armament. As the dominant member of the Central Planning Board, which had supreme authority for the scheduling of German production, and the allocation and development of raw materials, Speer took the position that the Board had authority to instruct Sauckel to provide laborers for industries under its control and succeeded in sustaining this position over the objection of Sauckel. The practice was developed where Speer transmitted to Sauckel an estimate of the total number of workmen needed, Sauckel obtained the labor and allocated it to the various industries in accordance with the instruction supplied by Speer.\"\nI should like to call Your Honors' attention to the date, August 1 1944 on which Spoor took over Air Armament, which was prior to that date that the defendant was in charge of the Air Armament.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 348, "page_number": "284", "date": "08 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-08", "text": "Then turning to page 41, its the paragraph beginning with \"Sauckel continually informed.\" That is two paragraphs later: \"Sauckel continually informed Speer and his representatives that foreign laborers were being obtained by force. At a meeting of March 1, 1944, Speer's Deputy questioned Sauckel very closely about his failure to live up to the obligation to supply four million workers from occupied territories. I might interpolate at this point, Your Honors' will recall the meeting of March 1st 1944, Speer was not present, Milch was presiding. The deputy referred to here was Milch. In some eases Speer demanded laborers from specific foreign countries. Thus, at the conference of August 10-12, 1942, Sauckel was instructed to supply Speer with \"A further million Russian laborers for the German armament industry up to and including October 1942.\" At a meeting of the Central Planning Board an April 22, 1943, Speer discussed plans to obtain Russian laborers for use in the coal mines, and flatly vetoed the suggestion that this labor deficit should be made up by German labor.\"", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 349, "page_number": "285", "date": "08 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-08", "text": "There is one more excerpt which I'd like to put in. I don't seem to have it at the moment -- if Your Honors would bear with me. The next document is No. 1176, N-O-1176, which we offer as prosecution Exhibit No. 67. It appears on Page 85 of Your Honors' Document Bock and page 138 of the German translation. It's in Document Book 2-C, page 85. It's offered as Prosecution Exhibit No.67. It's an excerpt from the decision of the International Military Tribunal.\n\"One of the important parts of this mobilization was the systematic exploitation, by force, of the labor resources of the occupied territories. Shortly after Sauckel had taken office, he had the governing authorities in the various occupied territories issue decrees establishing compulsory labor service in Germany. Under the authority of these decrees Sauckel's Commissioners, backed up by the police authorities of the occupied territories, obtained and sent to Germany the laborers which were necessary to fill the quotas given them by Sauckel. He described so-called 'voluntary' recruiting by Janates 'a whole batch of male and female agents just as was done in the olden times for shanghaiing'. That real voluntary recruiting was the exception rather than the rule is shown by Sauckel's statement on March 1, 1944, that 'out of the five million foreign workers who arrived in Germany, not even 200,000 came voluntarily'. Although he now claims that the statement is not true, the circumstances under which it was made, as well as the evidence presented before the Tribunal, leave no doubt that it was substantially accurate.\"\nIf Your Honors please, that concludes the exhibits which the Prosecution wishes to offer at this time. On this question the next phase of the case under which we wish to go is that of the Jaegerstab, and I am sorry to inform your Honors that we don't have another Document Book and will not have one today. We realize that Your Honors will not sit tomorrow or Friday and we certainly hope to be ready to proceed at 9:30 on Monday.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Will you explain what the next phase in the case will involve, Mr. Denney, so that we may think about it ahead.\nMR. DENNEY:That next, phase of the case, if Your Honor please, involves the Jaegerstab, a force which --or rather a Board-- which was set up by Speer at Milch's request early in 1944 to take care of the increase of fighter aircraft production in Germany.", "speakers": [ "MR. DENNEY", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 350, "page_number": "286", "date": "08 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-08", "text": "The German aircraft industry had suffered greatly as a result of the Allied bombings, particularly by strategic Air Forces, and their problems were briefly these:\n1) The quick repair of airplane factories which had been damaged by bombing or strafing operations;\n2) The dispersal of aircraft production and the going underground of aircraft production insofar as it was possible, particularly for fighter planes; and, of course,\n3) The ever-present problem of raising the German fightercraft production so that they would be able successfully to cope with the Allied armadas in the air.\nTHE PRESIDENT:To what part of the indictment is this proof directed?\nMR. DENNEY:This has to do again with the employment of slave labor, if Your Honor please.\nTHE PRESIDENT:We are still in that same category?\nMR. DENNEY:Yes, sir. We do not go into the medical experiments at all in the Jaegerstab.\nTHE PRESIDENT:That explains it.\nJUDGE PHILLIPS:As we understand it, at this time you have not rested your case on the slave labor feature of the case.\nMR. DENNEY:No.\nJUDGE PHILLIPS:This is just one phase of it?\nMR. DENNEY:Yes, Your Honor.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Very well, the Tribunal will be in recess until next Monday then at nine thirty.\nTHE MARSHAL:The Tribunal will recess until 0930 hours, next Monday morning, 13 January 1947.\n(The Tribunal adjourned until 13 January 1947, at 0930 hours.)", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "JUDGE PHILLIPS", "MR. DENNEY", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 351, "page_number": "287", "date": "13 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-13", "text": "Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the Matter of the United States of America against Erhard Milch, defendant, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 13 January 1947, 0940-1700, Justice Toms presiding.\nMR. DENNEY:If Your Honors please, before we go into the Jaegerstab, there are one or two matters which should be cleared up for the sake of the record.\nFirst, if Your Honors will recall, on the first day of the evidence there was a discussion with reference to a translation, and Dr. Bergold and I discussed that in my office, and he is agreeable with the translation as it appears in the document and a was read to Your Honors.\nNow, we have the extra page. If Your Honors will recall, in Exhibit 51 which was presented last week,NOKW 198, was a chart which was prepared with reference to the slave labor. I got the original for Your Honors, and it was noted that there was one page which had not been photostated. We now have that page photostated, and we offer that to be added to Exhibit 51, which appears at page 59-A of Document Book 2-B.\nAnd, if Your Honors will recall, in reading the minutes of the 54th session of the Central planning Board, which appeared in Document Book 3-A, there was a discrepancy in the translation. We now have the balance of the pages, and they should be added after page 12 in Document Book 3-A. Page 13 in Document Book 3-4 should be dropped because it is included in this new material, and Page 12, as it appears in your Document Book, should only go down to the bottom of the German page 1816, which is the speech of Sauckel appearing just before the German Page 1824. These pages are offered as an addition to Page 12 of Document Book 3-A, being Exhibit Number 48-A, and they are pages 12-A through H, and with Your Honors' permission, I will read them into the record.\nThis is a continuation of the 54th meeting of the Central Planning Board, which was held 1 March 1944.", "speakers": [ "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 352, "page_number": "288", "date": "13 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-13", "text": "The defendant is talking:\n\"Milch: Unfortunately Reich Minister Speer is not present today. He certainly must have had his opinion about the whole system. His agreement with Bichelonne was to activate an additional labor supply in France itself for out armament with the aid of existing French capacities. We cannot compute the result here of what that action achieved. Whether the result he dreamed of has been achieved can not be decided just now; that is: have the S-plants given us an increase of armaments which is greater than what we would have achieved if the people had worked in Germany? I would propose that Minister Speer himself one day clarify this problem again. Because if only a negative resuly had been achieved, he would automatically change his point of view, too.\n\"The first question is: Is the percentage of trained people in the S-plants so great that all the others are to be regarded as rubbish? And the second question is: Is it possible at all, with the lack of so-called executive power and the different opinions on this question, to seize and transfer to Germany the remaining 80 per cent who arc not in the S-plants? So, in view of the general political and organizational conditions in France, would you be able to transfer some 10 - 15 per cent of the best of these 80 per cent?\n\"Sauckel: I must take them out.\n\"Milch: Can you do it at all?\n\"Sauckel: Today I can not promise anything. Today I can only work.\n\"Milch: I mean if as regards the other 80 per cent your hands are not tied by the different circumstances that, firstly, there is nothing to attract these people to Germany, that secondly they reckon with Germany's defeat in a short time, that thirdly they are attached to their families and to their country and that fourthly they shun work because they can still exist and without it they look on the whole period as a period of transition they expect to get over.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 353, "page_number": "289", "date": "13 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-13", "text": "On the other hand you have the fact that the army docs not assist you and that the German authorities are hostile to each other, a fact which is very cleverly utilized by the French.\n\"Sauckel: That has changed since my last visit. All the German authorities, the military commander, Field Marshal von Runstedt, Field Marshal Sperrle, have supported me considerably in these affairs.\n\"Milch: I refer to the smaller authorities, the Executives.\n\"Sauckel: That has boon spoiled--pardon me if I have to bring this up--because all departments, even armaments over there, were of the opinion up to 4 January that my claims and especially my figures were a crazy demand.\n\"Milch: But only people who thought that could not understand such figures.\n\"Sauckel: Up to 4 January it was the same everywhere, from the Military Commander to the German Ambassador and the German armament departments. Up to then all the agencies in Franco had in general hold the opinion without exception it has not been decided yet by any means, Sauckel's figures are not correct, so we have to take it easy here. And that penetrated naturally to the lower ranks of French Authorities too.\n\"Milch: That is just what I mean about the differences of opinion between the different authorities, today, the difference between you and Minister Speer. You say, the best thing for mo is to approach the protected industries; Speer says: Leave those people alone, take 80 per cent away from the others. And if one is neutral, one has to say always under the condition that these 20 percent in the SPlants really achieve something for us. Speer is right when he says: Please do not touch my 20 percent; there are enough among the 80 percent for you to use.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 354, "page_number": "289", "date": "13 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-13", "text": "And now I say Why do you not take tho others? Is it so difficult to approach then?\n\"Sauckel: No. I need tho people as well. The fact is that Spoor's plants are filling up nowadays. For instance, I received the information tho day before yesterday that the urge to work for the protected industries is especially strong just now in France and so the supply of quality work ers to Germany is practically cut off.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 355, "page_number": "290", "date": "13 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-13", "text": "People of duality are only to be found in these plants.\n\"Kehrl: May I explain briefly the opinion of my minister? Otherwise the impression might be created that the measures taken by Minister Speer had been unclear or unreasonable, and I do wish to prevent this from happening. Seen from our viewpoint the situation is as follows: Up to the beginning of 1943 manufacturing for the use of Germany was done in France only to a relatively modest extent, since generally only such work was transferred for which German capacity did not suffice; these were some few individual products, and moreover some basic industries. During all this time a great number of Frenchmen were recruited and voluntarily went to Germany.\n\"Sauckel: Not only voluntarily; some were recruited forcibly.\n\"Kehrl: The calling up started after the recruitment no longer yielded enough results, \"Sauckel:\nOut of the five million foreign workers who arrived in Germany not even 200,000 came voluntarily.\n\"Kehrl: Let us forget for the moment whether or not some slight pressure was used. Formally, at least, they were volunteers. After this recruitment no longer yielded satisfactory results, we started calling up according to age groups, and with regard to the first age group the success was rather good. Up to eighty percent of the age group was caught and sent to Germany. This started about June of last year. Following developments in the Russian war and the hopes raised thereby in the Western nations, the results of this calling up of age groups became considerably worse, as can be proved by the figures noted; viz., the men tried to dodge this call-up for transport to Germany, partly by simply not registering at all, pertly by not arriving for the transport or by leaving the transport on its way. When they found out through these first attempts that the German executive either was not able or was not willing to catch these shirkers and either to imprison them or take them forcibly to Germany, the readiness to obey the call-ups sank to a minimum.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 356, "page_number": "291", "date": "13 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-13", "text": "Therefore, relatively small percentages were caught in individual countries. On the other hand, those men, moved by the fear the German executive might after all be able to catch them, did not enter French, Belgian, or Dutch factories, but took to the mountains where they found company and assistance from the small partisan groups existing there.\n\"Milch: Another question, Since now through the transfers of industry so much is covered by French labor, as in the textile industry, etc.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 357, "page_number": "292", "date": "13 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-13", "text": ", a corresponding number of German workers just necessarily become free as a result.\n\"Kehrl: Then they will not be required where they would have been required formerly.\n\"Timm: Nobody is going to be released. Probably other requests will be sent to tho same factories.\n\"Sauckel: in this respect I must also draw attention to the fact that the German factories which were slut down wore much more up to date and probably worked with loss personnel than tho French factories.\n\"Milch: But we do want all the factories to work for armaments.\n\"Kehrl: That would also result in spreading tho risk in case of air warfare.\n\"Filch: I believe the system to be good, as a still severer commitment of workers for Germany would have the effect of making a considerable part of them remain over there for good. I wish you had something at the back of you to make tho thing a necessity. I do not think that anyone in France will enforce it.\n\"Sauckel: How about Germany setting about the thing in tho right way. It is not the insignificant French workman who should be punished, but the French policeman, who, instead of supplying people to Germany, goes to them beforehand and says: 'I'm coming tomorrow; you'd better get out,' The French subordinate and intermediary authorities have to be punished.\n\"Filch: Even if Bichelonne and Laval have the best intention there will be resistance from the mayors, the gendarmes, and the prefects, just because those people are afraid that firstly, they will be called to account afterwards for this affair, and secondly because of their national point of view, which makes them say: 'We must not work for the enemy of our country.\" Therefore I would like to have an authority in our administration which would force these people to do it, because then the French could say:", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 358, "page_number": "293", "date": "13 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-13", "text": "\"If you force us, we will do it, but voluntarily we will not do it.' The same applies to Italy. There they say: 'Who knows who will win, whether it will be Mussolini or Badoglio or the King; only if you force us we are ready to do it.' Therefore we have to have some tiling on our side which will exercise this pressure. I don't at all see why big divisions should be necessary for this. The existing forces should be sufficient to accomplish it.\n\"Timm: I have the feeling that in this problem we are keeping too close to the question of figures and are overlooking the question of quality. The present development may permit us to fulfill our programs with regard to figures, but in the demands made by the factories the important thing for them is to have so many metal workers, etc. Then we practically have to say:\n'You will get only unskilled workers.'\n\"Kehrl: This point is clear to all of us. The plants are getting unskilled workers, at the utmost it may be possible to obtain quality workers by transferring plants from Italy to Germany.\n\"Sauckel: Then it will happen that in the course of years the factories will declare: 'We cannot use these workers.' And over against this you have the fact that in France we have a reservoir of unused skilled workers.\n\"Milch: I am not worrying about that. Naturally our plants will say: 'We want skilled workers.' But they also need a certain number of unskilled workers.\n\"Timm: Will it not happen that the offices making the demands say one day: 'But we know that in the French plants there is an excess of skilled workers which cannot be justified?'\n\"Milch: That should be discussed again later with Speer himself. First Speer must have a survey of what has happened as the result of all his agreements.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 359, "page_number": "294", "date": "15 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-15", "text": "I can imagine that first he immediately Introduces a propertionate number so that the extent of the output in the S-plants is fixed, and that secondly it is decided later on that if a part of the S-plants has not worked properly after a certain period, they lose their protection again and the people from those plants can be transferred collectively. I can foresee now already that air armaments a part of the plants will turn out such bad production that I shall not be interested in keeping them up. So that protection for certain plants will simply be lifted again. And this will have a positive effect on the other plants, too, because they will say: 'If we do not work decently, we shall be transferred.' Now during the transfer it is necessary to see that the people really do arrive and do not run away before or during the transfer. If a transport has left a town and has not arrived, 500 to 600 persons from this place must be arrested and sent to Germany as prisoners of war.'\nHere we have a Field, Marshal, a member of the Wehmacht, recommending in an order that forced labor be brought to his country that if when a transport leaves, some of them don't show up in Germany, to get the questionable benefits of the Third Reich's policy with reference to those laborers, ho says, \"arrest five or six hundred people and send then to Germany as prisoners of war,\" probably to be sent to Mr. Himmler's stalag.\n\"Such a thing is than talked about everywhere. If actions like this and other similar ones are carried out often, they would exert a certain pressure. The whole thing would be made easier if we had control of food. The stuff offered by the black market has to come from a certain depot, and there we ought to cut in.\n\"Kehrl: That is difficult. The transport of food by parcel post has taken on extraordinary proportions in Franco.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 360, "page_number": "295", "date": "15 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-15", "text": "\"Milch: I personally as military commander would confiscate all goods sent by parcel post.\"\nAgain indicating that fine demeanor ho had toward everything connected with this slave labor program, he suggests there that the military commanders confiscate all the parcel post packages.\nThere is one more document which appears in Your Honors' Document Book 4, which should be offered at this time. page 118\nTHE PRESIDENT:Mr. Denney, may I interrupt before you leave this document, this document refers to protected industries and S-Plants.\nMR DENNEY:These, if Your Honor please, are the same. That was a plan whereby Spoor and his ministry set up certain protections over plants in foreign territories whereby the product of those plants was coming into the German war economy, and anybody who worked there was exempt from being seized for forced labor.\nTHE PRESIDENT:I understood that; but they are synonymous?\nMR DENNEY:Yes, as I understand it; yes, Your Honor.\nTHEPRESIDENT: \"S-Plants\" means \"protected industries\"?\nMR DENNEY:Yes. It happens to be a difference in translations. One translator works on one part and calls it \"S-Plants\" which is the German indication for it, some one else works on another cart and calls it protected industries, In Document Book 4 at Page 118, this is an interrogation of Speer conducted on 18 October 1945, by Lt Col Murray I. Curfein.\nIt was conducted here in Nurnberg, and this is offered as Prosecution's Exhibit No. 68a. Hr King, in his presentation of the Jaeger Stab, will have occasion to refer to it at some length. However, the first", "speakers": [ "THE", "MR DENNEY", "MR DENNEY", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 361, "page_number": "", "date": "13 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-13", "text": "DR. BERGOLD:May it please the Tribunal, you will remember, that in your decision-- I am sure you will remember this-- You granted me an interrogation of Mr. Speer as a witness. I an of the opinion now that in this case where a certain 395A man will appear here as a witness in court.", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 362, "page_number": "296", "date": "13 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-13", "text": "Affidavits and previous interrogations should not be presented, merely cross-examinations, and the prosecution could submit the corresponding charges. In the case of Military Tribunal No. 1 it was generally done in this manner. Affidavits and statements of persons certain to be interrogated generally should not be introduced.\nMR. DENNEY:If Your Honor please, I don't agree with Dr. Bergold's conception of the ruling of the International Military Tribunal. Speer has been requested by him as a witness. We have not objected to Speer being called. This is an interrogation, not an affidavit, and Your Honors are familiar with the provisions of the charter with reference to interrogations. It has whatever probative value Your Honors want to give it. It was made at a time some time past. If Dr. Bergold wants to ask him questions about it when he calls him here as a witness, he is certainly entitled to. But I certainly don't have to call Speer to ask him about this.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Is it your plan, Dr. Bergold, to call Speer as a witness?\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes, Your Honor. The Tribunal has made a decision to this effect, granting me the examination of Speer as a witness. At least that was told me by the Secretary General.\nTHE PRESIDENT:And Speer is available as a witness?\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes, indeed.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:Mr. Denney, do I understand that you would be willing, in the event this document is introduced, that the defense counsel may regard what is contained in the document as testimony already introduced in court for the purpose of cross examination?\nMR. DENNEY:Yes.\nDR. BERGOLD:May it please the Tribunal, in your question, Your Honor, I can see a difficulty. We have been taught the following during the International Military Tribunal No. 1: If we call upon a witness, we can interrogate him but not cross-examine him.", "speakers": [ "THE PRESIDENT", "DR. BERGOLD", "MR. DENNEY", "JUDGE MUSMANNO" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 363, "page_number": "297", "date": "13 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-13", "text": "I cannot charge the witness with what the prosecutor has presented in the cross-examination because of the rule that if I request the witness I may not cross-examine him. At least that was told us during the International Military Tribunal. However, if Your Honors are of a different opinion, if Your Honors think that I may present the witness with these statements, then my objection becomes unfounded and void.\nMR. DENNEY:Of course, if Your Honor please, our position about this document is this: Speer is of necessity to be regarded as a hostile witness. He is now serving, I believe, a twenty year sentence. He was a co-worker with the defendant. This is a statement that he made. The statement shows that there was no duress in it. It was voluntary. It was made after he turned all his documents over to Mr. Justice Jackson, which appears in the record of the first case. We offer it for such probative value as Your Honors see fit to give it.\nTHE PRESIDENT:In view of the fact that the witness will be here, Dr. Bergold will have an opportunity to examine him, at least, either as a friendly or a hostile witness, and especially with regard to the matters that are in this interrogatory, there will be no limitation upon Dr. Bergold's examination; and if he can induce Speer to repudiate the interrogatory or to modify it by means of cross-examination, of course he has that right. The interrogatory will be admitted.\nDR. BERGOLD:Thank you, Your Honor.\nTHE PRESIDENT:We haven't located the document, Mr. Denney. Will you give us the page again?\nMR. DENNEY:It may be page 104, Your Honor. I have 118 but the note I have at the bottom says page 104, starting 104, Document Book 4.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The exhibit number, please?\nMR. DENNEY:Exhibit No. 68.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Will there be more than one volume of 4?\nMR. DENNEY:No, sir. There is just 4, and then after that comes 5, the medical experiments book. Starting about the third question:", "speakers": [ "THE PRESIDENT", "DR. BERGOLD", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 364, "page_number": "298", "date": "13 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-13", "text": "\"Q. I wanted to ask you to day about the Central Planning Beard.\n\"A. Yes.\n\"Q. Were you the chairman of that office?\n\"A. The Central Planning Beard was no office as such, it was a place where decisions wore made. The Central Planning Board was not led by me but the decisions were made by three men in common -- by Milch, Keerner and myself. After we took over the production department from the Ministry of Economics the fourth man, Funk, was added.\n\"Q. And did you attend all the meetings of this Central Planning Beard yourself?\n\"A. I took part in all sessions except from February until May, when I was sick.\n\"Q. In what year?\n\"A. In 1944.\n\"Q. And while you were away, during February to May 1944, did you receive reports of the proceedings so as to be in touch with the situation?\n\"A. I was kept informed of all current events by the chief of my ministry. The exact minutes of the sessions of the Central Planning Board I only read later.\n\"Q. So that when you returned to work in May 1914 you went over all the minutes of the decisions and discussions of the Central Planning Board, I take it?\n\"A. I don't remember this exactly, but you must remember that when I returned after my sickness I came into the middle of much work and the plane attacks were going on at that time. I more or less tried to catch up with the information that I had missed with the use of certain key words in order to donate what had happened in my absence. But I will say now, frankly, that if a decision has been made, no matter what its nature, tint I will tell you about it if I know about it now, even if I did not knew about it at the time it was made.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 365, "page_number": "299", "date": "13 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-13", "text": "\"Q. Who was your representative in the Central Planning Board at the time of your illness?\n\"A. In the case of absence of one of the members of the Contral Planning Board no deputy was chosen but one of the other members took over the functions of the absentee.\n\"Q. Who was it?\n\"A. I believe it was Milch in this case.\n\"Q. You mean that you were acting as the Chairman of the Central Planning Board before you became ill and that Milch took your place as Chairman?\n\"A. There was no Chairman in the Central Planning Board as such, the three members had equal jurisdiction and powers, thus Milch was not Chairman when I was absent. In practice, however, it happened that milch and I would usually agree upon what to do and Keerner played a subordinate part more or loss.\n\"Q. But to represent the production office of yours you must have had a man there to represent your interests during the time of your illness?\n\"A. May I say the following here. We agreed that in the Central Planning Board Milch and I would not represent special interests. If that had been so, there would have had to be other representatives beside us. For instance, there would have been one for the Navy and also somebody to represent the other main factors. We agreed that we would be impartial in representation on the Board and that we would not be there as representatives of our representative Ministries.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 366, "page_number": "300", "date": "13 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-13", "text": "THE PRESIDENT:That should probably be \"respective ministries\".\nMR. DENNEY:That is as much as I wanted to read at this time, Your Honor. We never did present to the Secretary General B-124. We have it here now. We will hand it up. The documents have been completed. That completes this pant. Mr. King will now take over. He will present the case with reference to the Jaegerstab.\nJUDGE PHILLIPS:The Tribunal understands you have rested your case on the slave labor feature of the indictment.\nMR. DENNEY:No. If your Honor please, this Jaegerstab also has to do with the slave labor feature.\nJUDGE PHILLIPS:You have rested on one feature?\nMR. DENNEY:On the general background and Milch's participation so far as Central Planning is concerned. We are now going into 1944. Mr. King will now proceed.\nMR. KING:If Your Honor please, we are waiting momentarily for a chart showing the organization of the Jaegerstab - the general set-up.\nMR. DENNEY:If Your Honor please, the translation difficulty which we referred to a little earlier and which we had discussed with Dr. Bergold, was in reference to Document 016-PS, which is Exhibit 13.\nDR. BERGOLD:May it please the Tribunal, concerning this statement made by Mr. Denney I would like to say the following: I have come to an agreement with him that the present translation shall remain because Mr. Denney told me the English translation refers not only to the financial part but also to general employment as such.\nMR. DENNEY:Referring to the question of expenditure, the Doctor thought \"expenditure\" meant only the money part. I said \"expenditure\" was used in the document to mean everything. It was not just money.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Has the difficulty been cleared up between you?\nMR. DENNEY:Yes, if Your Honor please.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Dr. Bergold?\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes.\nMR. KING:If Your Honor please, the prosecution begins now the presentation of that phase of its case dealing with the defendant Milch's partici pation in the Jaegorstab.", "speakers": [ "JUDGE PHILLIPS", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "MR. DENNEY", "MR. KING" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 367, "page_number": "301", "date": "13 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-13", "text": "I might add that has to do with the slave labor phase of the Milch case.\nFirst, I wish to say a few words about the background of the Jaegerstab. The Jaegerstab was formed on March 1, 1944 by decree of Albert Speer issued pursuant to an order of Adolf Hitler. Our evidence will show, however, that it was the defendant Milch who conceived and instigated the formation of the Jaegerstab.\nThe purpose of the Jaegerstab was the increased production of fighter aircraft. Fighter plane production had suffered severe set-backs due to British and American air attacks. Defendant Milch and his Luftwaffe had also suffered in the battle for new raw materials and workers had hampered the spare armament industry.\nFighter aircraft were Germany's principal defense against bombing raids. Early in 1944 the defendant Milch had concluded that without adequate fighter protection the entire German armament industry would soon be destroyed. After repeated urgings, Milch was finally successful in his efforts to create a special commission of top officials from various ministries to undertake a special effort in the field of fighter production.\nThe Jaegerstab, therefore, was actually a concentration of experts drawn from various ministries. Our evidence will show that the defendant Milch and Speer were designated as the joint chiefs of the Jaegerstab with Karl Adolf Sauer acting as the Chief of Staff.\nThe methods adopted by the Jaegerstab in the execution of its tasks were (1) transfer of German aircraft industry under Grogg, (2) the decentralization of German aircraft industry, (3) quick repair of bombed-out plants.\nOur proof will show that the labor for this program, which was the decisive consideration in the discussions of the Jaegerstab, was obtained from throe sources: (1) Sauckel Ministry, (2) concentration camps, (3) by direct recruitment from occupied countries.\nThe first series of documents which the prosecution will introduce show the background and operating procedure of the Jaegerstab.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 368, "page_number": "", "date": "13 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-13", "text": "The first document in this series isNOKW 317. It is prosecution exhibit Number 69. It is on page 3 of the English Document Book; page 2 of the German document book.\n301-A This is an interrogation of former Field Marshal Milch held on October 14, 1946.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 369, "page_number": "302", "date": "13 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-13", "text": "In this interrogation the defendant describes the economic and political background of the formation of the Jaegerstab stating that the Luftwaffe had been shortchanged in the administration of armaments by Herr Sauer of the Speer Ministry.\nPart of the interrogation which I shall read starts on page 5 of the English Document Book and Page 6 of the German Document Book. It starts with a question, \"How long were you leader of the Jaegerstab?\" I will continue reading.\n\"A. The Jaegerstab was founded on my suggestion around the end of February or the middle of March, 1944. I resigned on 20 June 1944 as Director General of Air Force Equipment Generalluftzaignmeister and State Secretary. Then for a few days I only did the transfer work. As far as I know, that was approximatly only July or August. One of Speer's men, Sauer, arrived then and he then took over the whole matter. From then on I had absolutely nothing to do with it. I believe it was from I August on, and during this time I have only worked on the transfer.\n\"Q. What was your job as chief of the Jaegerstab?\n\"A. May I briefly depict the historical motives?\n\"Q. Please do.\n\"A. Already previously the whole administration of armaments was in the hands of Speer's ministry. Thereby we in the Luftwaffe incurred disadvantages. The man who prejudiced us for the benefit of the army and the navy was this Mr. Sauer, who was Department Head for Armament matters on the staff of Speer. For a period we engaged in weekly conferences with Speer in order to remove all these injustices. Many assurances were given, but few of them were kept. Speer himself had the good will but apart from him his Mr. Sauer made his own business flourish. And the result was that we were unable to produce sufficient fighter planes because we were not given enough assistance in all spheres. However, this support was particularly necessary for us because since July 1943 the Luftwaffe industry had been the main bombing target, especially in daytime of the American airforce and also severely at night of the English.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 370, "page_number": "303", "date": "13 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-13", "text": "As a result of this, we could only raise our plan of increasing the production of fighter planes to a certain degree and could not proceed any further. Approximately 1000 fighter planes. However, we wanted to reach 3000, that was my suggestion at the time, which I submitted when I took up my office. When these discussions with Speer did not show any real success --they had helped somewhat, but not decisively -- Speer became severely ill at the end of 1943 and early 1844. Now Sauer did not have anybody to hamper him anymore. And that was when I had the idea to establish a mutual commission between us and the Speer ministry only for the purpose of increasing the production of fighter planes. That was the only task with which the Jaegerstab was charged.\"\nTHE PRESIDENT:Should not that word be \"pamper\"?\nMR. KING:No, \"hamper\", Your Honor. The idea is that Sauer was interfering with the production of the Luftwaffe armament and the implication is that with Speer ill Sauer had complete control of the Armaments Ministry and was not allocating sufficient workers or raw material to the Luftwaffe.\n\"I now demanded that Sauer also was to join the Jaegerstab. After several refusals by Speer. I had visited him at the hospital, after his suggestion had been disapproved, he was a politician, who, however, did not have any understanding of our affair -- he gave in and agreed that Sauer also joined. And thus the Jaegerstab consisted of Speer, myself, and Sauer.\"\nThis document helps to show the Jaegerstab was founded on the instigation of the defendant Milch and that it was he who originally conceived the idea for this joint commission.\nI would like to offer in evidence Document NumberNOKW - 017, rather, if Your Honor please, this document has already been introduced and it is Prosecution Exhibit Number5-A. This document is on Page 12 in Your Honors' Document Book; page 13 in the German Document Book.\nJUDGE MUSSMANO:Mr. King, when you refer to a document book, would it be too much trouble to tell us the number?\nMR. KING:I will do that, Your Honor. The Exhibit Number of the next document which I am going to read is Prosecution Exhibit Number58. This document contains minutes of a conference of defendant Milch with Air Force Engineers, Chief Quartermasters, held on Saturday, March 25, 1944.", "speakers": [ "MR. KING", "JUDGE MUSSMANO", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 371, "page_number": "304", "date": "13 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-13", "text": "The document bears the initials of the defendant, that is, his very distinctive \"M.I.\".\nIn the reference, 295, the part which I shell read is from the opening address of the defendant in which he describes the background and the formation of the Jaegerstab and the jurisdiction of its personnel. This is on Page 14, Document Book 4; page 15 of the German Document Book.\n\"We of the Luftwaffe armaments have been asking for over a year already that a strong home defense in the air be set up. We have made efforts to establish the prerequisites necessary for this, namely the providing of sufficient planes to serve as day and night fighters. Since July of last year, when we exceeded the figure one thousand, we have made no further progress. The average production during the succeeding months always hovered around 1,000 planes, sometimes less, sometimes a little more; once in December 700--that was due to the weather and the bad conditions for testing planes--and in January, on the other hand, 1300. It always balances and what was produced was brought in from the evacuation areas, while the main works were more likely to be put out of commission. There is not a single one of our fighter plane factories, accessory factories, which has not been hit at least three times; they were hit by the Americans during the daylight raids, not to mention the scattered raids (Streuangriffe) by the English, which unfortunately are lucky enough on occasion to hit one of the most important production plants (Fertigung). That is what happened two nights ago at Frankfurt on the Main, where a main production plant for propeller blades of the VDM was completely destroyed. Being fully aware that the strength of the Luftwaffe alone is insufficient both as regards quotas and with respect to the workers, etc., to bring about an extensive change in the field of air armaments, we applied to Minister Speer and his colleagues to undertake a common special effort in this field. The establishment of a Ruhr staff served as an example for us; it was established at the time when the industry in the Ruhr area seemed to be entirely put out of commission by the continuous raids. At that time the Ruhr staff was set up and the necessary quotas, buildings, etc., were put at its disposal.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 372, "page_number": "305", "date": "13 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-13", "text": "Thereby the entire situation was changed. Minister Speer and his colleagues, fully aware that without air armaments and without air defense the rest of the armament industry would very soon be destroyed and become useless, agreed to this plan enthusiastically and with iniative.\"", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 373, "page_number": "306", "date": "13 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-13", "text": "Thus it came about that a definite proposal was made to the Reich Marshal, the Fuehrer; the Fighter Staff was created. The order of the Fuehrer provides clearly that the fighter plan planes program which the Fighters Staff is starting has priority over all other fields of armaments, which means, to be sure, that other important armaments are not to be infringed upon by it. And that is not necessary either. Our Additional needs, which seem very large within the possibilities available to the Luftwaffe, are a relatively simple and modest matter when considered within the framework of the entire armament industry; they can, to be sure, not to be made up for by a few additions, as perhaps existing reserves, but have, it is true, to be met at the expense of other parts of the armament industry. And if we advance our cause at the expense of others, then we are doubly obligated to eliminate as far as possible, every infringement of decisively important matters in this field, from the very beginning. Thus it would be madness if, in order to produce more planes, we should considerably reduce the number of tanks produced; for these tanks are, beside the air war, today in the East and naturally also in Italy of decisive significance. The same holds true for the munitions used by the infantry, which were anyhow available in far too small quantities. It holds true also for several other things; I do not want to enumerate them in detail. However, there is, of course, still the possibility in the armament industry to reduce something that is not so important numerically, or to postpone something, and thus to create a new reserve and a new basis, which will enable us to increase the production of fighter planes.\n\"Simultaneously, there is bound up with the increase in production an extraordinary effort to undertake a further evacuation in such a way as is dictated by the enemy, and, on the other hand, not to carry out the evacuation as before, in the year and a half, by dispersal above ground, but by concentration underground. For this purpose large scale construction work is under way. Altogether some 100,000 workers who have been taken of other jobs are being employed in that undertaking.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 374, "page_number": "307", "date": "13 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-13", "text": "\"According to the plans we have here, I believe that we shall have our production to a considerable extent safely under ground by four months from now, and that six months from now we shall have a large part of our production under ground. Eight months from now we hope to have the bulk of our armament industry entirely protected. Previously there was not the faintest sign of a possibility for the execution of such plans; for none of the requests for workers, construction workers, building machinery quotas, etc., which were constantly made could be filled.\n\"The Jaegerstab is made up as follows: The direction is in the hands of Reichminister Speer and myself. Deputy for both of us, and at the same time our chief of staff, is Hauptdienstleiter Graduate Ing.(Engineer) Saur, who is sitting on my left. Saur is the man who carried out the large scale armament program for the Army and the Navy in the Speer Ministry in recent years in an exemplary manner. Saur again and again during the past 1 1/2 years succeeded in raising the production figures in all important fields and sometimes even in multiplying them.\n\"Further, I name only the leaders of the Haegerstab. We have put the question of over-all planning in the hands of Dr. Wegener. Construction matters will be directed by Graduate Engineer Schlempp. The evacuation underground will be in the hands of SS Gruppenfuehrer Kammler. The supply, that is one of the most essential factos, and everything in the way of semi-manufactured material that comes to our factories for completion, will be taken care of by Director Schaaf, Deputy to Staatsrat Dr. Schieber, the Director of the Armament Supply Office in Speer's Ministry. Dr. Schmelter will take care of labor commitment, sites suitable for dispersal confiscation, etc., will be in the hands of Ministerialrat Speh of the Armaments Supply Office. Gruppenfuehrer Nagel of the Organization Speer will be in charge of transportation. The supply of power will be in the hands of General Director Fischer. Engineer Lange will be in charge of machinery, Mr. Nobel of repairs. Reich Railroad questions will be in the hands of the President of the Reich Railroad, Pueckel; Post Office, Oberpostrat Dr. Zerbel. Health matters, Dr. Poschmann. Social Welfare, Dr. Birkenholz.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 375, "page_number": "", "date": "13 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-13", "text": "Special problems for Mo 262 and steel powder units, Captain Dr. Krome. Raw materials and quota system, Dr. Stoffragen. Questions of technical simplification, etc., Oberstabsing, Klinker. Office manager, Petri.\" I read that list of names to Your Honors, because these are names you will find mentioned over and over again in the discussion of the Jaegerstab.\nI now call to the Tribunal's attention a chart of the Jaegerstab drawn by Carl R. Saur, Chief of Staff of the Jaegerstab, which shows the personnel of the Jaegerstab, and their activities as members of the Jaegerstab Ministry from which they are drawn. This chart is Prosecution's Exhibit No. 70, and is Document No.NOKW-262, found on page 1 of Your Honors' Document Book, that is, Document book No. 4, and at page one of the German's. For the benefit of the Tribunal we have reproduced this chart on the wall, showing the members of the Jaegerstab at the bottom there in yellow and orange, and the ministries from which they are drawn, together with their functions as members of the Jaegerstab. As I say this is a replica of the chart as drawn by Saur, the man that the defendant Milch named as Chief of Staff of the Jaegerstab.\nI call Your Honors' attention to some of the members of the Jaegerstab besides that of Milch, Speer and Saur. I call your attention to Schlemp who was deputy in the Jaegerstab for Xavier Dorsch of the notorious Todt; Fritz Schmelter, Labor boss of the Jaegerstab; SS Gruppenfuehrer Hans Kammler, in charge of the subterranean construction of the Jaegerstab. Those drawn from the airforce were Frytag, Chief of the Jaegerstab Main Board of the air plants; Werner, Chief of the main board for motors; Heyne, Chief of the Jaegerstab for aircraft equipment; and Schnauder who was in charge of the air raid production for the Jaegerstab.\nWith the labor, as was seen from the document which I have read, the primary consideration behind the formation is inevitably that the Jaegerstab should become involved in the question of labor commitment and recruitment, as well as the policy around which the treatment of slave labor production centers. 308 I should like to point out it is evident from Milch's speech, which I have read, that the Jaegerstab was assigned top priority in all matters, including the commitment of new manpower.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 376, "page_number": "309", "date": "13 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-13", "text": "As was indicated by Prosecution's Exhibit No. 54 -- in that connection I shall correct the exhibit number of Milch's speech to the airforce engineers, 25 March, 1944. I am told that is Exhibit No. 54. As was indicated by that exhibit, and the Exhibit No. 69, the purpose of the Jaegerstab was the increase of fighter production. This was partially accomplished by the transfer of the aircraft industry to underground installations.\nThe next series of documents which the Prosecution will present will show that the Jaegerstab participating in the recruitment allotment, and the employment of slave labor for this program. Our proof will show that workers employed in this program were derived from three sources, that is, labor obtained through the Speer Ministry, of manpower directly recruited by the Jaegerstab in the occupied countries, the concentration camp inmates, and Hungarian Jews, obtained from the SS; this is labor employed in the underground construction program of the Jaegerstab.\nThe first document of this series which the Prosecution would like to offer is the Teletype from Geering to Reichsfuehrer of the SS Himmler. This is Document No. 1584-PS, and it is part of Prosecution Exhibit No.71. This is at page 60 of tho English Document 4, at page 56, German Document Book 4. This letter shows that even before tho formation of the Jaegerstab by Geering, who was the superior officer in the Luftwaffe, and who had foreseen the need for the construction of the underground factories. It showed that the aircraft industry had requested necessary labor from Himmler. This letter is addressed to Reichsminister Himmler, Berlin, it states:\n\"Reference: Letter 168 No. 72/44 Subject:\nCreation of the 7th Air Echelon Z.B.V.7 Dear Himmler:", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 377, "page_number": "", "date": "13 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-13", "text": "Your request to set up another Echelon of the 7th Air Squadron Z.B.V 7 has been received and I have ordered the operational staff of the 309-A Luftwaffe to make an examination.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 378, "page_number": "310", "date": "13 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-13", "text": "At the same tine I request that you place another number of concentration camp inmates, as large as possible, at my disposal for the armament of the Luftwaffe since the experience acquired so far proves these workers to be very useful. The war situation in the air makes the shifting of industry underground necessary. Especially here the concentration camp inmates lend themselves particularly well to organization both from the point of view of work and accommodation. These measures are necessary in order to secure the production of ultramodern aircraft, the development of which is completed. During his last visit at Insteburg, the Fuehrer attached decisive importance to these aircraft. There have already been intermediary consultations between your offices and mine. I would be particularly grateful to you for your assistance in carrying out this task.\n\"HEIL HITLER - Yours Geering, Reich Marshal of the Greater German Reich.\"\nHimmler in his letter of Feb, 18th replied in full on March 9, 1944. This reply is on pages 61 and 62 in Your Honors' Document Book No. 4; pages 57 and 58 of the German. Attached thereto is a chart showing the employment of concentration camp labor in the aircraft industry. This chart is at pages 63 to 7 in the English Document Book, on pages 59 to 63 of the German. The details by individual plans of the use of this labor. I shall not read the chart in detail, but I call Your Honors' attention to it, and in connection with the defendant's responsibility for the employment of this labor, I then call your Honors' attention to Document No.NOKW-017, Prosecution's Exhibit 54, at page 21 of the English Document Book, page 22 of the German. That is Document Book 4, where the defendant stated that it was he who was responsible for the Army and the Luftwaffe, and, I should also like to call the Tribunal's attention to the document presented previously in this case by Mr. Denny, showing that as General Luftzengmoister of the Air Force the defendant was responsible for the requisition and commitment of labor in the aircraft industry.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 379, "page_number": "311", "date": "13 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-13", "text": "The letter from Himmler, that is the letter of March 9, 1944, opened with a reference summarizing the use of concentration camp personnel and air armament, which I shall read, this is the first two paragraphs on page 61 of the English Document Book:\n\"Following my teletype letter of the 18 February, I herewith transmit a survey on the employment of prisoners in the aviation industry. This survey indicates that at the present time about 36,000 prisoners are employed for the purposes of the air force. An increase to a total of 90,000 prisoners is contemplated.\"\nThen dropping down to the end of the letter, next to the last paragraph where Himmler states about the assignment of concentration camp labor, and the underground construction program of tho Jaegerstab were already under way. Then I'll read the next paragraph starting with \"The Movement:\"\n\"The movement of manufacturing plants of the aviation industry, subterranean locations requires further employment of about 100,000 prisoners. The plans for this employment on the basis of your letter of 14 February 1944 are already well under way. I shall keep you, most honored Reichsmarshal, currently informed on this subject.\nHeil Hitler (Initialed) HH.\"", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 380, "page_number": "312", "date": "13 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-13", "text": "DR. BERGOLD:May it please the Tribunal, if I understood the representative of the prosecution correctly, he has explained to us after reading the letter written by Goering, that the receipt of this letter was acknowledged by Himmler. I would appreciate it if the prosecution would tell us in what way this acknowledgement took place because I can see no such confirmation amongst the documents presented to me.\nMR. KING:If Your Honor please, in that connection I call your attention to the opening statement in this letter of March 9th referring to a teletyped letter of February 18th, 1944, that is the confirmation that I was referring to.\nDR. BERGOLD:However, this teletype letter of the 18th of February has not been introduced yet. Willit be introduced? Although, of course, I do not doubt the declaration of the prosecution, officially I cannot accept such a statement.\nMR. KING:We don't have a copy of that letter. We only take the reference in the Himmler letter for what it is worth. We are not formally introducing that letter. We are only making reference to it as description of the succeeding document.\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes. However, I would like to draw the attention of the prosecution to the fact that in this letter of the 9th of March Himmler refers to a teletype letter of tho Reichmarshal of the 14th of February; whereas the letter from the Reichmarshal submitted to the Tribunal was written on the 15th of February, that is one day later. From the 15th to the 14th of February do not go together.\nTHE PRESIDENT:I think, Mr. King, if you will look at the document on Page 60, Exhibit 71; it bears the numbers 14/2, which would indicate tho 14th of February.\nMR. KING:That is right.", "speakers": [ "MR. KING", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 381, "page_number": "", "date": "13 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-13", "text": "THE PRESIDENT:And then the next page says, \"Teletype of 14th February.\"\nMR. KING:I would like to draw Your Honor's attention to the distinction between the date that the letter was apparently written and the date that it was apparently received. This date up 312-A on the left hand corner is apparently the date it was received; that is the 15th--or rather, the date that it was transmitted.", "speakers": [ "MR. KING", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 382, "page_number": "313", "date": "13 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-13", "text": "DR. BERGOLD:In any case, it is not quite clear.\nTEE PRESIDENT:All of it is clear by reason of the fact that the date up in the left hand corner refers to April, not February; the 15th day of the 4th month. It plainly is a mistake.\nMR. KING:If Your Honor please, we will withdraw the reference of this letter as a reply to the Goering letter of February 14th and treat it as a reply to a letter of February 14, 1944; that is, we will only withdraw the reference of the Himmler letter as a reply to a Goering letter of February 15, 1944.\nThe next document which I should like to read is from our 124 and shows further steps of the development of the Jaegerstab underground construction program. This is Prosecution Exhibit No.48-F and is on Page 88 of the English Document Book--that is Document Book 4--Page 90 of the German. The excerpt which I shall read from this document is on Page 90 and it's part of the summary of the results of the 55th Meeting of the Central Planning Board which was held on March 23, 1944. I might add that the list of those present does not include Speer; the defendant Milch is the only member of the Board present. This excerpt shows that at this time the Jaegerstab was receiving an allocation of steel for its building program. And this is on Page 90, Page 93 of the German, the paragraph starting with: \"The Planning Office.\"\n\"The Planning Office is authorized to divert from the return flow of iron permits orders of sheet metal handed back by those Kontingentstraeger (that is quota recipients) who had specially big sheet metal orders, a part of this return flow in favor of the Fuehrer Reserve up to 50,000 tons per month. Out of this return flow, a reserve must be formed once only of up to 30,000 tons for the immediate requirements of the Jaegerstab; the administration of this quantity must rest with the Planning Office.\"", "speakers": [ "MR. KING", "DR. BERGOLD", "TEE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 383, "page_number": "314", "date": "13 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-13", "text": "This shows that at this time plans wore being made for the setting aside of steel for the construction program of the Jaegerstab.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The Court will recess for 15 minutes, Mr. King.\n(A recess was taken.)", "speakers": [ "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 384, "page_number": "315", "date": "13 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-13", "text": "THE MARSHAL:All persons in the Courtroom will arise. The Tribunal is again in session.\nMR. KING:If Your Honor please, I would like to correct that last exhibit number, that is, the result of the 55th meeting of the Central Planning Board. That will be Exhibit 48C. That is for the purpose of the record. I now call your Honors' attention to a second excerpt from the general document bookR-124which is Prosecution's Exhibit No. 48G and of that page 95 of the English document book four and page 98 of the German. This is from the result of the 56th meeting of the Central Planning Board which was held on April 4, 1944. It appears from the list of those in attendance that Speer again was not there. The topic at this meeting was building allocations for 1944. As your Honors will see from the excerpt which I shall read, the Jaegerstab received the allocation of 550 million Reichsmarks to carry out the building program. This excerpt is at page 95 of the English and 98 of the German, starting with the paragraph \"The Fighter Staff.\" That's translated.\n\"The Fighter Staff is to get a quota of 550 million including 150 million definitely pledged from the reserve and the Air Administration is to have a quota of 200 million; both are to be checked up against each other. Regarding the Air Administration quota precise details such as specific amounts, numbers of workers required, quantities of materials are to be submitted, building projects for the supplying industry are to be transferred to the Office of Armament Supplies, trial projects are to be discussed between the Commissioner of Building and Air H. C., the remaining demands are to be cleared between the Air Chief Administration and the Chief of the General Staff.\"\nI also call your Honor's attention to the last paragraph on Page 96 of the English Document Book 4 and page 99 of the German. This is the paragraph starting with:\n\"The quota recipients will be informed of their respective quotas as of guiding figures within the limits of which the Commissioner of Building may give assignments. The quota recipients themselves are, on the basis of these guiding figures, to re-plan their projects by concen trating on priority issues and to report which of their building projects will have to fall out, including the resulting figures.", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "MR. KING" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 385, "page_number": "316", "date": "13 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-13", "text": "Fieldmarshal Milch will report to the Fuehrer on the total situation of building. Reports on the quotas Air Ministry, Navy, Army and Reichsbahn are to be sent to Fieldmarshal Milch forthwith.\n\"Demands of labor, building materials, etc. as resulting from the quota allocations are to be discussed with the Planning Office by the quota recipients taking into account such amounts of the quota as were already used up for building purposes since January 1, 1944. Signed Steffler.\"\nAnd the list of those present includes General Fieldmarshal Milch, Reichsminister Funk and General Secretary Koerner.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 386, "page_number": "317", "date": "13 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-13", "text": "A few days later, on April 6th and 7th, 1944, the results of the 56 meeting of the Central Planning Board were reported to Hitler by Milch and Sauer. The minutes of this conference, which I shall read, are also part of theR-124, and are located on pages 74 and -5 of Your Honor's Document Book, pages 72 and -3 of the German. This document is Prosecution Exhibit 48 E. The minutes of this conference were compiled and signed by Sauer and there are references to letters from Speer in these minutes which indicate that Speer was not among those present. The minutes show that Milch and Sauer at this time stressed the achievements of he Jagerstab which had already taken place and discussed the turns to the construction of the underground factory for the Jaegerstab, plans of the Jaegerstab for the construction project were submitted to the Feuhrer. Hitler proposed that 100,000 Hungarian Jews be made available by the SS for a part of the construction project, and the part which I wish to read is paragraph number 16 of the numbered paragraphs, 74 and 75 of the English Document Book 4; \"Reports made to the Fuehrer by myself (this is Sauer speaking) and General Field Marshal Milch, based on tables and drawings, as to the achievements of the Jaegerstab stressing the satisfactory cooperation of the new organization with all offices and works. Reported in detail that plans have been made for the best part of transfers, and that, as a first installment, the decentralisation above ground will be completed by August, and as the second installment, the most vulnerable works will be underground by the end of the year.\"\nTHE PRESIDENT:That will be 1944?\nMR. KING:That will be 1944. Further: \"General Field Marshal Milch reported on the result of a meeting on the building subject by the Central \"Planning\" according to which the most important building projects only could materialize due to agreat tension in general conditions. In spite of this, the Fuehrer demands that the two huge buildings of 600,000 sq. m. each should be erected with a,ll speed. He agrees to it that one of these buildings is not to be made from concrete, but according to our suggestion will be set up as an extension of, and in close vicinity of, the Middle 317-A Works as a so-called Middle-building, and that this work will be placed under the direction of the JUNKERS-WERKE.", "speakers": [ "MR. KING", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 388, "page_number": "318", "date": "13 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-13", "text": "Plans have to be made without delay to secure production in bottleneck items of the JUNKERS Works, production of ME 262 at 1,000 per month, and fighters at 2,000 per month.\n\"Suggested to the Fuehrer that, due to lack of builders and equipment, the second big building project should not be set up in German territory, but in close vicinity to the border on sitable soil (preferably on gravel base and with transport facilities) on French, Belgian or Dutch territory. The Fuehrer agrees to this suggestion if the works could be set up behind a fortified zone. For the suggestion of setting this plant up in French territory speaks mainly the fact that it would be much easier to procure the necessary workers. Nevertheless, the Fuehrer asks that an attempt be made to set up the second works in a safer area, namely in the Protectorate. If it should prove impossible there too to get hold of the necessary workers the Fuehrer himself will contact the REICHSFUEHRER 'SS' and will give an order that oho required 100,000 men are t o be made available by bringing in Jews from Hungary. Stressing the fact that the building organization of the INDUSTRIEGEMEINSCHAFT SCHLESIEN - SILESIA was a failure, the Fuehrer demands that these works must be built by the O.T.- exclusively and that the workers should be made available by the REICHSFUEHRER 'SS'. He wants to hold a meeting shortly in order to discuss details with all the concerned men.\"\nBy written letter, written in the name of Speer, and dated April 17, 1944, all interested parties were formally notified of the decision reached at the Hitler conference. This latter is included in 1584-PS, and is part of Prosecution Exhibit No.71. This is at pages 68 and 69 of the English Document Book and pages 64 and 65 of the German. This is Document Book 4, In connection with this, I might call Your Honor's attention to 3720-PS, which was introduced previously by Mr. Denney as Prosecution's Exhibit No. 68, and in which Speer states that this letter was written by Sauer. That is, the letter of April 17, 1944, and this is at page 119 of the English Document Book and 118 of the German.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 389, "page_number": "319", "date": "13 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-13", "text": "That is the reference in The Speer interrogation, 3730-PS. I also call Your Honor's attention to page 118 of the Document Book 4, in which Speer states that he was ill between February and May of 1944. This is at page 117 in the German. This it letter, and/is the Speer letter, is addressed to Jaegerstab, care of Milch and Sauer, copies to Reichsfuehrer of the SS, Chief of the German Police, Himmler, Chief of the Armament Office, Generalleutnant Waeger, the GBA Construction Director, Stobbedetleffsen. In this letter, reference is again made to the procurement of the Hungarian Jews. This letter is at page 68 and 69 of the English Document Book; 64 and 65 of the German.\n\"By means of tables and drawings, I have, together with Field Marshal Milch, reported to the Fuehrer on the work of the Jaegerstab with due reference to the extremely gratifying and successful cooperation of the newly formed organism, with all offices and plants. He has duly noted that the best part of the transfer has been determined according to plan and, that as a first phase decentralization from above ground can be concluded by about August and that the second phase will be concluded by the end of the year by a total securing underground of the most vulnerable plants. As a result of the construction conference of the Central Planning, Field Marshal Milch has reported to the Fuehrer that, of the required amount of construction work, only the most important structure can be effected in view of the extreme stress of the situation as a whole. The Fuehrer insists that the two major plants he asks for, covering at least 600,000 M. each, should nevertheless be erected with the greatest energy. He agrees that one of these plants will not be built in concrete, but will, in accordance with the proposal, form an extension and be in the immediate vicinity of the present Central plant, under the name of Central Building, and be under the management of the Junkers Plant. In view of the lack of building labor and installations the suggestion to erect the second proposed large building not on German territory but on suitable sites, involving primarily gravel foundations for transport facilities in the immediate vicinity of the frontier, on French, Belgian or Dutch territory, has been approved by the Fuehrer, so long as the structure is erected behind a fortified zone.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 390, "page_number": "", "date": "13 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-13", "text": "319-A The suggestion of French territory is particularly vindicated by the fact that it will be considerably easier to procure the necessary workers.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 391, "page_number": "320", "date": "13 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-13", "text": "The Fuehrer requests, however, that the attempt should be made to erect this second structure in a considerably safer area, namely in the protectorate. Should labor not be found there, the Fuehrer proposes to contact the Reichsfuehrer SS personally and require him to procure the necessary 100,000 men or so, by making available a corresponding quota of Jews in Hungary. The Fuehrer wants a meeting to take place at short notice at his headquarters for the discussion of details in the presence of the men concerned. Besides insuring the day by day bottleneck in the JUNKERS works the immediate task of the Central Building will be to plan and insure the production of the ME 262 at the rate of 1000 units per month and of yet another fighter at the rate of 2000 units.\n\"Heil Hitler\" /s/ Speer Our proof as presented in the next documents, will show that the thousands of workers needed for this gigantic construction program, were furnished primarily by the SS and consisted of concentration camp inmates and Hungarian Jews.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 392, "page_number": "321", "date": "13 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-13", "text": "The immediate supervision of the Jaegerstab project was undertaken by SS Gruppenfuehrer Kamera of the Jaegerstab, and Exavier Dorsch, of the notorious Todt organization. Dr. Shlemm, a member of the Jaegerstab was especially designated as Dorsch's deputy. The Tribunal will see, from succeeding documents, that Shlemm periodically informed the Jaegerstab, both orally and in writing, of the progress of the work. Kemmler also rendered written reports, and in addition, both Kemler and Shlemm were active participants in meetings of the Jaegerstab. The Tribunal will recall that, in his speech of the air force engineers, the chief quartermasters, which is Prosecution Exhibit 54. I previously made reference to this, DocumentNOKW 017. The defendant Milch reported to Shlemm and Kemmler as among the leaders of the Jaegerstab. This reference is at page 17 of English Document 4, page 19, in the German book.\nThe next document, which the prosecution wishes to introduce is NOKW 372, which is an affidavit by Fritz Schmelter, the man whom the defendant named in his speech of March 1944, chief of Labor Commitment for the Jaegerstab. Reference is again made to prosecution Exhibit 54, page 17 of the document book -- that is, the English-- page 19 of the German; this is Prosecution Exhibit No.73. This is at page 101. That is the Schmelter affidavit of the English Document Book.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Mr. King, what was Exhibit 72?\nMR. KING:I stand corrected, Your Honor. This is English Exhibit No. 72. This affidavit is dated December 9, 1946. It is clear from the affidavit that Kamera's chief source of labor was concentration camp inmates received through the SS, while Dorsch utilized the Hungarian Jews and other foreign labor. I shall read the affidavit in full.\n\"I, Fritz Schmelter, swear, state and declare: That from around January 1944 to April 1945 I held the position of Ministerialdirigent in the Reichministry for Armament and War Production (Speer Ministry); that as Ministerialdirigent I directed the Department for employment and distribution of labor, and from December 1944 to April 1945 I directed the Central Department for Employment and distribution of labor, and that on the basis of the first position I was a member of the Jaegerstab.", "speakers": [ "MR. KING", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 393, "page_number": "322", "date": "13 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-13", "text": "\"1. That the Jaegerstab was founded on or about 1 March 1944; that Speer and Milch were the mutually responsible Chiefs of the Jaegerstab.\n\"2. That the air-raids in the beginning of year 1944 made it necessary to decentralize the airplane factories by transferring them in part to above surface localities and in part to subterranean localities.\n\"3. That the entire program of decentralization to above surface localities and the construction of subterranean installations was directed under the jurisdiction of the Jaegerstab; that the direct supervision of this Jaegerstab construction program was exercised by SS Obergruppenfuehrer Kammler and by Stobbe-Detleffsen and later by Xaver Dorsch of the Todt Organization. Kammler was a member of the Jaegerstab and Dorsch was represented in the Jaegerstab by his deputy Schlemp. Both Kammler and Schlemp reported at regular intervals to the Jaegerstab on the progress of their work: Kammler in written reports and Schlemp in both oral and written reports.\n\"4. That Kammler utilized concentration camp prisoners placed at his disposal by the SS in order to carry out his share of the Jaegerstab construction program; that Dorsch used foreign workers, part of whom were Hungarian Jews, to carry out his share of the Jaegerstab construction program.\n\"5. That Milch, as one of the two responsible Chiefs of the Jaegerstab, personally directed, ordered or approved decisions made in the interests of Jaegerstab-Undertakings.\n\"6 That the aforementioned facts are personally known to me and to be sure by virtue of my position and responsibility as member of the Jaegerstab.\"\nSworn and signed, \"Fritz Schmelter, Nurnberg, 9 December 1946.\nKammler's part in the construction program, and his use of concentration camp personnel, are also referred to in the next document, which the Prosecution wishes to introduce. This document isNOKW-320, and there's an excerpt from an interrogation of Sauer, Chief of Staff of the Jaegerstab, dated November 13, 1946. This is Prosecution Exhibit No.73and is at page 103 of the English Document Book 4, and page 105 of the German book.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 394, "page_number": "323", "date": "13 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-13", "text": "\"Q. Were special factories built after the creation of the Jaegerstab?\nA.All building of factories above the ground was stopped, and subterranean factories were built. We divided approximately 30 factories into 700 individual workshops, to avoid offering targets for attacks.\nQ.What kind of workers were used for this construction?\nA.The construction was divided into three parts:\nthe two Kammler parts\na) new construction underground\nb) expansion underground and the OT part.\nQ.This expansion program was directed by Kammler, then?\nA.Parts a) and b) were directed quite independently by Kammler. He had full authority from Goering as of 4 March 1944 and was then made a member of the Jaegerstab.... The whole affair was carried out by Kammler alone.\nQ.And the workers who were used for this purpose were concentration camp prisoners?\nA.To my knowledge, they must have been concentration camp prisoners.\"\nDR. BERGOLD:May it please the Tribunal, I should like, to protest against the submission of this affidavit, in its present form. It is evident that an extensive part of this affidavit has been omitted, and I should consider it correct if the entire affidavit would be submitted, so that I could ascertain whether a meaning can be devised from those parts omitted; which would place the entire document in a different light.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Well, it is the rule, isn't it, Mr. King, that if you use part of a document for your own purposes, that the opposition is entitled at least to see the entire document?\nMR. KING:If Your Honor please, we intend to furnish Doctor Bergold with the complete interrogation. We've had some difficulty in getting our documents together and we weren't able to locate the complete interrogation as of last evening.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "MR. KING" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 395, "page_number": "324", "date": "13 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-13", "text": "THE PRESIDENT:Very well.\nMR. KING:If Dr. Bergold wishes to waive the usual 24-hour notice, we'll introduce it at this time; otherwise we'll suspend and introduce it tomorrow, or within any period within which he has had the usual notice.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Well, if you do not furnish him with the entire affidavit, the Tribunal will hear his objection to this portion of it again. We'll suspend decision on the admissibility of this portion until Dr. Bergold has been furnished with the complete affidavit.\nDR. BERGOLD:Thank you.", "speakers": [ "MR. KING", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 396, "page_number": "325", "date": "13 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-13", "text": "MR. KING:The next document which the Prosecution would like to refer to is No. 3720 PS, and is again a part of Prosecution Exhibit No.68, which Mr. Denny introduced previously this day.\nThis document was introduced into evidence before the INTERNATIONAL MILITARY TRIBUNAL and is an excerpt from an interrogation of Albert Speer and we will notice here that a reference was made regarding the use of the 100,000 Hungarian Jews which were furnished to DORSCH.\nThis testimony is at Page 118 of the English Document Book Four; at page 117 of the German. The part which I would like to read starts with the fourth line down:\n\"Q. Put your mind on foreign Jews. Did you use these for forced labor in Germany?\n\"A. As far as foreign Jews are concerned, Hungarian Jews were used in the building program.\n\"Q. And when was that -- in 1944?\n\"A. Yes, that was in 1944.\"\nMR. KING:There, we have the testimony that REICHSMINISTER SPEER, as a Chief of the JAEGERSTAB, would undoubtedly be in a position to know that Hungarian Jews were used in the building program.\nThe next document which the Prosecution wishes to introduce, is NOKW447, an affidavit by Xavier DORSCH, who was apprised of one phase of the JAEGERSTAB program. This is Prosecution Exhibit No.174, and is found at Page 131 of the English Document Book, and on page 128 of the German.\nDORSCH himself states that he used Hungarian Jews in the construction program; in detail, states, that the JAEGERSTAB through Schmudt and other liaison officers was fully informed of the progress in the construction and the questions connected with it. This affidavit states in part, starting from the sixth line from the bottom on page 131 of the English Document Book:\n\"Also, as far as I remember, there were about 3,000 Hungarian Jews employed on the construction site Kaufering. The Jaegerstab was informed currently about the progress of construction and the questions connected with it by SCHIEMM, and later by Dipl.", "speakers": [ "MR. KING" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 397, "page_number": "", "date": "13 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-13", "text": "Ing. KNIPPING and EWARLD who worked in the Jaegerstab as liaison engineers.\"\n325 (a) I might say that this affidavit is in DORSCH's own hand and written by a man who would be in a position to know the tie-in between the JAEGERSTAB and the Construction Program; and of the amount of MANPOWER there employed.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 398, "page_number": "326", "date": "13 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-13", "text": "Despite assertions that DORSCH and Kammler acted independently, the MINUTES of the Jaegerstab discussion show that the members were fully informed that KAMMLER and DORSCH were utilizing slave labor in the construction program labor sites. The minutes of the Jaegerstab meetings which I will presently introduce, show that the JAEGERSTAB not only consented to the utilization of this labor bub encouraged its use, its evident to aid in the procurement of such labor that Dorsch and Kammler used all the means placed at their disposal.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 399, "page_number": "327", "date": "13 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-13", "text": "The first document which the Prosecution wishes to introduce in this series isNOKW-338, which is a part of Prosecution Exhibit No.75, and I might add, for the benefit of the TRIBUNAL, that all of the minutes of the Jaegerstab meetings which we shall introduce, are included as part of General Exhibit No. 75. The reference is at page 135 of the English document Book Four; and on page 132 of the German.\nThis is an excerpt of the minutes of the Jaegerstab meeting of March 17, 1944. I might add, that this meeting was held at the Air Ministry, and presided over by the defendant Milch. The minutes record his active participation in the meeting, and the excerpts which I will presently read show that the Jaegerstab was furnished labor by Kammler and that concentration camp labor was used in the construction program.\nFor identification purposes the participants in this discussion were Stuba F. Detlerson, who was plenipotentiary for construction in the Reichs Ministry for Armament; that is, the Speer Ministry; Sauer, who was chief of staff to the Jaegerstab; Dorsch, who represented the Volks Wagon Works, Nobel, who was in charge of repairs for the Jaegerstab; and the defendant Milch.\nThis is at page 135 of the English Document Book; 132 of the German. The excerpt opens with a statement by Stobbe Detleffsen: \"....We already reckon on 100,000 men for the task of the Jaegerstab; to transfer them would mean breaking into the rest of the armament economy to an unheard of degree.\"\nSAUER interjects: \"100,000 without Kammler!\"\nSAUER again: \"Including the labor we give Kammler but not including the concentration camp people.\"\nSAUER once again: \"Right from the beginning, we realized that 200,000 men would be transferred.\"", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 400, "page_number": "328", "date": "13 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-13", "text": "\"Stobbe-Detleffsen: I have just spoken to Prinzil about it. It is absolutely necessary that the few German key personnel at our disposal should be taken with the concentration camp inmates or with the other subjugated people in such proportion as will guarantee the best use of this valuable Germanstrength .....\nMR. KINO:Later, on, Stobbe-Detleffsen: \"I am always getting demands for German labor, for example: Here are 5000 concentration camp inmates, give me 1000 German workers. I do not fulfill these requests in this proportion; otherwise my German labor would soon come to an end. We have filled only a fraction of the positions. I distribute German workers only in the ratio of one to ten (1:10.)", "speakers": [ "MR. KINO" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 401, "page_number": "329", "date": "13 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-13", "text": "\"Milch: The Air Force stressed the importance of getting the whole cave for the purposes of manufacture...\n\"Dorsch: I shall talk to Weiss again about our getting more concentration camp people for finishing off the work.\n\"Diesing: (Who is on the Staff of Milch's General Luftzengmeister) \" -- We probably shall not get them.\"\n\"Diesing: \"I'll get them from the Reichsfuehrer. I already have 3500. Two of Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl's men are going to France to prepare everything locally with regard to housing and feeding.\n\"Nobel: Can one be responsible for foreigners working as airfield control personnel? The repair works say: Yes.\" (Milch interjects:) \"not as pilots.\"\n\"Dorsch again: \"I do not think that is intended. The repair works said yesterday that it would be a help to them if foreigners could be used as airfield control personnel.\nThe next document which the Prosecution wishes to introduce in this series is DOCUMENT NO.NOKW-361. This is an excerpt of the minutes of the May 1944 meeting of the Jaegerstab; and is, again, a part of Prosecution Exhibit No.75. This is at page 154 of the English Document Book, 152 of the German. This excerpt is a discussion of the labor for underground construction.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Is this \"Exhibit No. 76\", Mr. King?\nMR. KING:No--I--. If your Honor please, we would like to introduce these minutes of the Jaegerstab as one document.\nTHE PRESIDENT:This is still part of \"Exhibit No. 75\"?\nMR. KING:Yes, your Honor. The participants in this discussion are, GABEL, who is in charge of machinery for the Jaegerstab; Sauer, Chief of Staff of the Jaegerstab; (Minister Plenipotentiary to Speer) and BORNITZ.", "speakers": [ "MR. KING", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 402, "page_number": "330", "date": "13 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-13", "text": "This is at page 153 of the English Document Book 4, and at page 152 of the German Document.\n\"GABEL: We must have 1,000 underground workers at once.\nSAUER: Definitely.\nBORNITZ: The Erzberg (ore-mine) has, furthermore, a loss of from 1400 to 1500 men per annum due to climatic conditions. It goes up as high as 1500 metres.\nSAUER: Do you give the men up systematically, and to whom?\nBORNITZ: Not systematically. They collapse, report sick and the foreigners do not come back. Some escape, too, as in the mountain country it is not possible to seal everything hermetically.\nGABEL: Careful. Concentration camp internees are not strong enough to be able to work underground.\"\nMR. KING: Document No.NOKW-337--\nDR. BERGOLD: --- May it please the TRIBUNAL, I would like to ask the prosecution whether it has become evident from the last document, that the defendant was present.\nMR. KING: The list discloses, your Honor, that the defendant was present at that meeting. And, I can show Dr. Bergold the original document, which we are introducing in evidence; and if Dr. Bergold wishes to examine it, we can show it to him.\n\"DOCUMENT NO KW-337\", which the Prosecution wishes to introduce now, is an excerpt from the Jaegerstab meeting of March 6th, 1944. This document is, again, part of Prosecution Exhibit No.75, and is at page 133 of the English Document Book Four, and at page 130 of the German.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 403, "page_number": "331", "date": "13 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-13", "text": "Here again we find the Jaegerstab discussing the problem of labor for underground construction, concentration camp personnel, foreign forced labor, prisoners of war and all considered, and I might add in passing that the reference in this document two pages by Milch show time he was present at this meeting of the Jaegerstab. Also in passing I might add that the previous document No.NOKW-361which Dr. Bergold questions has references to a statement by Milch at this meeting of the Jaegerstab. I wish to draw your Honors attention again to the fact that Milch was present at that meeting. We are handing a copy of that excerpt to Dr. Bergold for him to examine. (Dr. Bergold is given a copy of the excerpt referred to.) Going back toNOKW 337a Sturmbannfuehrer of the SS whom I have not been able to identify speaking at page five and thirteen of the excerpt, page 133 of the English, page 130 of the German:\n\"I have already discussed with Lt. Col. Diesing our requirements according to our construction plan in the immediate program. From tomorrow 5,000 prisoners will be in readiness to carry out this measure. For that we need 750 guard personnel.\"\nI want to call the Tribunal's attention to the fact that Diesing was a member of the Air Force. Then on page 13 Milch is speaking:\n\"We must distribute our German people as key personnel. That is, out of three construction companies we can probably make ten complete ones by introducing 70% foreigners. The SS officer replies:\n\"They must be skilled workers. In handling the prisoners it appears best that we should give 5 to 10 of them to one man who knows his job.\n\"The construction companies will be dissolved to provide key personnel for teams 10 times or even 100 times their size. That is a question which must be clarified by 10 a.m. tomorrow between the Plenipotentiary General for Construction, the Air Force Construction Units on one side and Kammler's Construction Staff on the other. That will be clarified by tomorrow, then any man must say what he needs. The Todt Organization must take part in this discussion, but I cannot consent to the inclusion of the Todt Organization in the 331-a matter as a third leading organization, as we should get confused.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 405, "page_number": "332", "date": "13 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-13", "text": "The Todt Organization must bleed with the rest. It is the same as your construction companies. They should know that he is the organizer and usufructory; by all means the usufructuary. For besides being organizer, he is the usufructuary for the construction sites of the Plenipotentiary General for Construction.\"\nAnd the SS Officer replies:\n\"Therefore it is important that these construction companies should be under military leadership.\"\nLater on there is a reference by Milch to the recruitment of miners by the SS from Italy and Czechoslovakia.\nMILCH:We further appealed to the Fuehrer that we should get the 64 miners who are in Berchtesgaden. The work there will probably soon be finished. May we make the suggestion that we, like the SS, should also train miners to a greater degree, and mention the figure 10,000, who would have to be trained one after another, because they could not all be trained at once.\nDR. BERGOLD:May it please the Tribunal, I am reverting to the objection which I raised before, when I asked the Prosecution whether Milch was present during the meeting of the 8th to 10th of May. A photostatic copy of the document has now been shown to me. We must conclude that at this meeting Milch was present in Vienna during the first part. However, during the individual discussions especially mentioned here on page 57 in the village called Bruck an the Mur. Mur is situated in the Southern Part of Austria and only certain individuals were present. However, there is a possibility that Milch has been present and consequently I withdraw my objection.\nMR. KING:If your Honor please, I had that reference checked and an examination made by a German-speaking analyst disclosed that at that particular session Milch was present. If Dr. Bergold wishes to look into it further he may make any further objection later on.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Has he withdrawn his objection? If so, there is no need of it.", "speakers": [ "MILCH", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "MR. KING" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 406, "page_number": "", "date": "13 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-13", "text": "DR. BERGOLD:Yes, Yes.\nMR. KING:Back at page 133 of the English Document Book, page 131 of the German, Milch is speaking. I will read that again in view of the interruption:\n\"We further appealed to the Fuehrer we should get the 64 miners who are in Berchtesgaden, the work there will probably soon be finished. He 332 -a made the suggestion that we, like the SS, should also train miners in a greater degree, and mentioned the figure of 10,000, who would have to be trained one after another because they could not all be trained at once.", "speakers": [ "MR. KING", "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 407, "page_number": "333", "date": "13 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-13", "text": "\"Sauer: The SS should be told that the training of miners should rest entirely with them, because the SS runs the best mining school.\n\"Milch: We must also ask the SS to get more miners from Italy and Slovakia.\n\"Sauer Again: We must bring more order to the PW Base Camp. We made a proposal that these PW Base Camps should be transferred to the SS. The Italian and Eastern people should be treated more roughly. In this document we have the defendant suggesting to the SS that miners be recruited and trained after having been brought in from Italy and Slovakia, and his colleague, Sauer, urging the harsher treatment of foreign labor, the transfer from the Stalag to the SS members of Jaegerstab were fully cognizant of the treatment of labor employed in works under its control. This is shown for example by Document NOKW 389 again part of Prosecutions Exhibit No. 75 and it is an excerpt from the Jaegerstab Meeting of May 2, 1944. This is at page 48 of the English Document Book - rather 148 of the English and 148 of the German. I shall read only that part of the Document in which Kammler is speaking. It is my understanding that the Defendant, Milch, was at this meeting, and in passing I again call your Honor's attention toNOKW 017in which the defendant stated that Kammler was a leader of the Jaegerstab. I also wish to point out that Kammler was chief of one phase of the Jaegerstab Underground Construction Program. Here he reports having ordered the hanging of thirty people in the plant primarily as an example to others:\n\"Kammler: As usual it is because the people have noticed that they are no longer treated severely enough. I had 30 people hanged as a special measure. Since they were hanged, everything has been to some extent in order again. It is the same old story; whenever people notice that they are not being treated so severely as before, they take all sorts of liberties.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 408, "page_number": "", "date": "13 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-13", "text": "It is not surprising that a normal soldier, standing guard on people who were previously always harmless, does not suspect anything of the kind. They are not, however, harmless people. The day before yesterday 30 people succeeded in 333-a breaking out.\"", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 409, "page_number": "334", "date": "13 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-13", "text": "The next documentary excerpt from the Jaegerstab meeting which I would like to introduce is DocumentNOKW 349which is an excerpt of the Jaegerstab meeting of May 25, 1944, again part of Prosecution's Exhibit 75 at page 154 of the English Document Book, 153 of the German. Milch is at the Central Planning Board meeting on this date. He was not at this meeting, but we have, however, submitted his personally initialed copy of the minutes. Participants at the discussion are Schmelter, who the Tribunal will recall the defendant named as labor expert of the Jaegerstab, Schlempp, who was Dorsch's Deputy of the Jaegerstab and Lange who is in charge of the machinery for the Jaegerstab. In the course of the discussion the statements of Schmelter clearly indicate that he was providing labor for Schlempp and in turn Dorsch, who includes the labor to be used by Schlempp in the computation of his needs. Reference is made to the arrival of some of the transports in the Dorsch phase of the construction, and also to the imminent arrival of the Hungarian Jews:\n\"Schmelter: In Italy we now hope that several age groups will be called up by the Italian Government and brought to Germany. The Todt Organization is bringing over 1000 workers I expect to get some of them. Some transports have arrived already.\nLange replies with the question: Will they all go to construction?\n\"Schmelter's Reply: Exclusively. Whatever the Todt Organization brings goes only into construction. The first transports have arrived at the large construction sites in order to get work going gradually on the large bunkers; at the same time the Hungarian Jews are expected now, and they will require some kind of key personnel. Altogether I need about 250,000 construction workers for the large bunkers and for Schlett's installations.\n\"Lange: You can get them all in Hungary. There are still Jews running around Budapest.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 410, "page_number": "", "date": "13 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-13", "text": "\"Schmelter: There is a lot of disorder in the disposal of bomb damage. Of the 20,000 construction workers in Hamburg, 8,000 are employed in bomb damage disposal although, thank God, there have been no raids there for 334-a a long time.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 411, "page_number": "335", "date": "13 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-13", "text": "Nobody can take them from Hamburg because Gauleiter Kaufman says: 'I shall not give them up. I am Commissioner for Defense of the Reich, you cannot force me.' There are in my opinion construction workers who could be get together very quickly to the tune of 50,000.\n\"Schlemp: Then we can employ the Jews and Italian military internees judiciously. The 100,000 Jews and Italian Military Internees will be of no use unless we have the necessary deputy leaders and skilled workers.\nIf your Honors please, I would now like to introduce Document NOKW 336 which is Prosecutions -- rather part of Prosecution's Exhibit No. 75. This is at page 156 of the English Document Book, page 154 of the German. This is an excerpt minute from the Jaegerstab meeting of May 26, 1944. Defendant Milch was there. Participants in this discussion include Speer, Sauer, Kammler, Schlempp, Schmelter and the defendant. In this excerpt Schmelter reports that two transports of Hungarian Jews had already arrived at the SS Camp Ausschwitz; that these consisted primarily of children, women and old men. Schlempp, speaking for Dorsch, reports on Dorsch's plan for capturing more labor. Kammler states that he will capture his own labor by taking fifty thousand people into protective custody:\n\"Speer: With regard to construction it is important that we should not start more building than we can supply labor and equipment for. Equipment is of secondary importance. He must not continue with the mistakes we found in the Air Force Armament industry when we took over, i.e., the beginning of no end of buildings for which, at that time, only 20 per cent to 30 per cent of the necessary labor was available. The Chief of the Jaegerstab stated that labor is a main consideration.\n\"Sauer: That is the case now unfortunately. We have at least 3 times as many buildings under construction as we have labor available.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 412, "page_number": "", "date": "13 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-13", "text": "\"Speer: What is the news about the Hungarian Jews?\n\"Kammler: They are on the way. At the end of the month the first transports will arrive for surface work on the surface bunkers.\n\"Schlempp: Dorsch said yesterday that he wanted to bring 100,000 Jews from Hungary, 500,000 Italians, 10,000 men from bomb damage repair, also 1,000 355-a from Waldbrohl; then he wanted to get something from Greiser's zone by negotiation, then 4,000 Italian officers, 10,000 men from South Russia and 20,000 from North Russia.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 413, "page_number": "336", "date": "13 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-13", "text": "That would be 220,000 altogether.\n\"Speer: We have often made such calculations; but the people never came.\nKammler again:\n\"For all these measures I must take in 50,000 more people in protective custody.\n\"Speer: We shall carry out a \"special operation\" undertaking of our own in order to build up reserves of manpower. It will bring in 90,000 men in three installments of 30,000. It will be experts who are called up. And it would be a good thing if one linked up with it the conscription of toolmakers within the firms so that one would have a body of tool-makers in the Armament industry. These people would get leave from this group and would function as Armed Forces employees. If we make them Armed Forces employees we have the advantage of being independent of Sauckel's offices.\nThen later on Defendant Milch speaking of Italian PW's.\n\"How long do the Italian PWs actually work?\n\"Schmelter: As long as the factory works. There is a regulation that PWs must work so long.\n\"Milch: Could you not look into this? You can see people on the streets about 4 or 5 o'clock and nobody after that.\n\"Schmelter: I can look into it.\nMilch again:\n\"I do not believe that any Italian prisoner of war works 72 hours.\nLater on Schmelter:\n\"Dorsch will accompany me to Greiser to try and get 20 to 30 thousand men out of him.\n\"Speer: Kammler had his doubts about that before.\n\"Representative of Kammler: He didn't think the 100,000 Jews would come.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 414, "page_number": "337", "date": "13 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-13", "text": "\"Schmelter: To that I can add the following. Till now two transports have arrived at the SS Camp Ausschwitz. For fighter construction were offered only children, women and old men with whom very little can be done unless the next transports bring men of an age fit for work the whole action will not have much success.\nSchmelter later on:\n\"I had agreed with Sauckel to get 20 to 25 thousand unemployed from Denmark. It was only a question of rate of exchange.\nOn page 87 of page 156:\nAs far as numbers of workers are concerned we have, for example, 7104 workers in Antwerp, of whom only 238 are German; in the Erla works in Brussels there are 3969 workers of whom 156 are German. The percentage of foreigners to German in the repair works is around 93% to 7%. If we do not succeed in bringing this labor with us into German territory -- we could do it from the point of view of space -- I see very great dangers for us.\"\nTHE PRESIDENT:The Tribunal will recess until one-thirty A recess was taken.", "speakers": [ "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 415, "page_number": "338", "date": "13 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-13", "text": "AFTERNOON SESSION.\nTHE MARSHAL:All persons will please take their seats. The Tribunal is again in session.\nMR. KING:If your Honors please, I would next like to make further reference to the Goering to Himmler telegram, which was part of Exhibit No. 71, 1584-PS at page 60 of the English Document Book. Our discussion about whether the letter from Himmler, which is also part of 1584-PS and which is at page 61, English Document Book 4, whether the Himmler letter of March 9th was a reply to the Goering telegram of February 14th, I would like to call to your Honors' attention an omission in the English translation up in the left-hand corner. An omission from the document as translated for the first case. That is, before the International Military Tribunal. This is in the left-hand corner and the word \"received\" right above \"hour, day, month and year\". The word \"received\" has been left out, indicating that the telegram was received on that day. I would also like to call your Honor's attention to the fact that in the Himmler letter the month is not clear there. This is presumably a \"2\" but it isn't written clearly and distinctly, and it's been translated as a \"4\". Then, in the middle of the page, right next to 2030 \"top secret\" reference 14-2, indicates the date of sending. I call your Honors' attention to the fact that this is a teletype, dated February 14, 1944, reference in the Himmler letter is to a teletype dated February 14, 1944, The teletype dated February 18th, which Himmler refers to has not been located by us. It may refer to the air corps matter that's discussed in the first paragraph of the Goering telegram.\nDR. BERGOLD:May it please the Tribunal, I would like to add the following to this statement: It is correct, when the prosecution says that the word \"received\" means -- may it please the Tribunal, I repeat: it's correct that the word \"received\" is at the top left and means the arrival or the receipt of the telegram. However, I would like to point out that this teletype was sent as a \"Blitz\" telegram. You can see that in the right lower corner of the upper section.", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "MR. KING", "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 416, "page_number": "", "date": "13 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-13", "text": "Such \"Blitz\" telegrams would go by \"blitz\" and arrived 338a within a few minutes.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 417, "page_number": "339", "date": "13 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-13", "text": "Therefore, this teletype, which was sent on the 15th of February 1944 by Himmler, also arrived the same day. Furthermore, the defendant draws my attention to the fact that No. A401714-2230 is not the number of Goering. The Goering number can be seen at the end of the telegram. The number was ADJ No. 391-44, GKDOS. Therefore, this number which is on the upper part of the page has nothing to do with the day on which the telegram was sent.\nMR. KING:I would like to call the Tribunal's attention to the fact that the figure 2030 is mentioned. Presumably the telegram was sent at 8:30 in the evening, and normally it would not arrive until the following day. It's impossible for us to trace by exact reference whether the telegram actually arrived in the morning. We do know it arrived the following day, and indications are that the figure 2030 there refers to the time at which the telegram left the Reich Air Ministry.\nTHE PRESIDENT:There's an indication of the hour. Two forty.\nMR. KING:Yes.\nTHE PRESIDENT:If it was sent at 2030 at night it could have been received at two forty A.M. the following day.\nMR. KING:That's correct, your Honor. I merely make that comment in connection with this \"blitz\" that's referred to there. We gather that, your comment that, presumably, the telegram was received at two forty in the morning, would indicate that the telegram was quickly transmitted.\nMR.BERGOLD: \"Blitz\" telephone calls came through within minutes and not in such a long period of time from eight thirty P.M. to two forty the following morning, that's absolutely impossible.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Well, I think we have heard sufficiently on that.", "speakers": [ "MR. KING", "THE PRESIDENT", "MR." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 418, "page_number": "340", "date": "13 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-13", "text": "MR. KING:If the Tribunal please, the next series of Prosecution exhibits deals with the procurement of labor by the Jaegerstab. The inclusion of Schmelter, the labor expert, in its membership is indicative that the procurement of labor in the fighter aircraft factories was a concern of the Jaegerstab. In this connection I again call Your Honors' attention to Document No.NOKW 317, Prosecution Exhibit 69, Pages 9 and 10, both the English and German Document Book, which is an interrogation of the Defendant Milch. The Court will see from this reference that the formation of the Jaegerstab was explicable in terms of the need for workers in air armament and the controversy over this question.\nIn this same interrogation, at Page 9 in Your Honors' document book the Defendant states that Schmelter, the labor expert of the Jaegerstab, acting on its order, demanded workers from Sauckel. I call the Tribunal's attention at this time to this Page 9, Prosecution Exhibit No.69.\nThe next prosecution exhibit, which is at Pages 98 and 99 of the English Document Book 4 and Pages 101 and 102 of the German, is Document NOKW 266. This is an affidavit dated November 19, 1946, by Schmelter, labor expert of the Jaegerstab. This is Prosecution Exhibit No.76. Here Schmelter clearly describes both the positions of the Jaegerstab in the matter of slave labor and the relative positions of Milch and Speer in the Jaegerstab. Starting on Page 98, numbered paragraph 2:\n\"That Milch and Speer together were in charge of the Jaegerstab; that Saur was the Chief of Staff and was, in this capacity, the immediate subordinate of Milch and Speer.\n\"3. That during its existence the Jaegerstab met almost every day and that these meetings were presided over in most cases by Milch, in the beginning, and later on by Saur; that Speer was very rarely present, and only at special occasions; that these meetings took place, first, in the Reich Air Ministry and after this was destroyed, in the barracks at Tempelhof.\n\"That in the meetings of the Jaegerstab the supply of labor for the Luftwaffe was discussed; that the Labor requirements necessary to the industry of the Luftwaffe were discussed, for the Jaegerstab, with the Plenipotentiary for Labor Assignment Ministry Sauckel; that Sauckel satisfied these requirements as far as possible; that the Chief of Staff Saur, in the Jaegerstab, occasionally also distributed the available labor to the different Luftwaffe plants.", "speakers": [ "MR. KING" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 419, "page_number": "341", "date": "13 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-13", "text": "\"That in the year of 1944 the air raids made it necessary to decentralize many of the plants of the Luftwaffe; that this decentralization was ordered by the Jaegerstab; that many factories of the Luftwaffe were transferred into subterranean buildings, and that for the completion of these subterranean buildings concentration camp inmates and Jews were also used; that the whole building program of the Jaegerstab was established and controlled by this Jaegerstab itself.\"\nSigned, dated November 19, 1946.\nThe next group of documents which show the involvement of the Jaegerstab in the procurement of labor, indicate that during 1944 the Jaegerstab made desperate efforts to obtain labor from every conceivable source, from the Sauckel Ministry, the concentration camps, by direct recruitment from the occupied countries. We show by these Prosecution exhibits that the Defendant Milch took a particular interest in the problem of obtaining labor, and used his personal influence with Sauckel to obtain workers when other methods had failed.\nDocumentary evidence has already been introduced in this and in the preceding presentation by Mr. Denney showing Milch's participation in the slave labor program and his full knowledge of sources from which Sauckel was obtaining his labor.\nThe first documentary excerpt in this series of the Jaegerstab meetings isNOKW 346, and this is at Page 137 of the English Document Book, Pages 134 and 135 of the German, and is again part of the Prosecution Exhibit No. 75. This is an excerpt from the Jaegerstab meeting of March 20, 1944, which was under the chairmanship of the defendant, then Field Marshal Milch. The part which I shall read shows Saur calling upon Milch to tell Sauckel that the entire group mobilized in Hungary should be placed at the disposal of the Jaegerstab.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 420, "page_number": "342", "date": "13 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-13", "text": "The second excerpt in this discussion is the discussion about foreign labor to be obtained from Czechoslovakia. I might add that Mahnke, one of the participants, was Chief of the Motor Supply and General Luftzeugmeister and as such was a subordinate of the Defendant Milch.\n\"Saur: As far as Hungary is concerned, I should be grateful if the Field Marshal would call up Mr. Sauckel and tell him that the whole group mobilized in Hungary should be primarily at the disposal of the Jaegerstab. Large, heavy labor companies must be formed. The people have to be treated like the prisoners. Otherwise it won't work.\"\nAnd then again page 53-\nDR. BERGOLD:I would appreciate it very much if the Prosecution could put this document at my disposal so that I can see if and what answer the Defendant Milch gave to these questions.\nMR. KING:That is amenable to the Prosecution, Your Honor, and we will give Dr. Bergold this entire document.--On Page 53:\n\"Saur: Where are the 54,000 Czechs?\n\"Mahnke: Of the 58,000 Czechs, 17,000 have been earmarked for Czechoslovakia. 31,000 are intended for the Reich, and after that 26,000 have been divided among the special commissions. 31,000 were for power units.\"\nLater:\n\"Saur: In my opinion it is a shame that, if we have a pool of 3,000 to 4,000 Czechs, we cannot open it up and take out 50 to 100 people.\"\nThe second document in this series is at Page 138 of the English document Book, Page 136 of the German, Document No.NOKW 388, and is again part of Prosecution Exhibit No.75. The participants in this discussion are Nobel, who is in charge of repairs for the Jaegerstab; Schmelter, whom I have described before; Frydag of the Jaegerstab for the factories under the jurisdiction of the main board for airplanes, and the Defendant Milch. This document shows the Defendant offering to bring the labor demands of the Jaegerstab to Sauckel, and suggesting that the Jaegerstab itself snatch slave labor arriving on transports and coming in from the East.", "speakers": [ "MR. KING", "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 421, "page_number": "343", "date": "13 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-13", "text": "Milch further suggests that the labor transfers within the German economy be channelled only to the Jaegerstab, that a setter to such effect be written to Keitel of the OKW and to Sauckel, together with a corresponding order to the factories who are not in a position to stop production under the jurisdiction of the Jaegerstab. Page 138 of the English; Nobel is speaking:\n\"The labor situation in the repair sector is very unsatisfactory. Of tho 2,000 people promised me before from the \"Sauckel action,\" not one has yet arrived. There is no point in saying that people should apply to tho Armament department. The Armament departments and inspectorates have not got anybody. If these men are not roped in by higher authority, the repair workshops cannot get any labor. My people are not in a position to stop production and you should let me know because we have net received any men since 11 March.\"\nAnd then a Member of the Jaegerstab replies:\n\"I brought this matter up yesterday with Ministerial Director Dr. Timm of the office of the Plenipotentiary General for labor, and told him that we handed in our request on 17 March, but had not yet received any laborers. He could not tell me anything, but will let us know today. I will ask schmelter, who is coming to this meeting later, to follow up this matter.\n\"Milch: Tell Schmelter that if I can help in any way by calling Sauckel, I would ask a consignment of 10,000.\nThen later on in the meeting Schmelter has arrived and is speaking:\n\"I have received such high demands, for instance today over 3,000, tomorrow over 5,000 and the day after again over 4,000, that it cannot possibly be the case that the labor is really needed, or else the firms do not understand the program. What has been received from you, Mr. Lange, has been passed on. It is also to be expected that these laborers will come within the next 10-14 days. I have arranged with Sauckel that I shall give out \"Red tickets\" for the most urgent demands, first of all the factories are to be closed or restricted. That will do to begin with.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 422, "page_number": "", "date": "13 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-13", "text": "These \"Red tickets\" will have priority, even over other \"red tickets\" Of course, that will 343A cause difficulties over skilled workers.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 423, "page_number": "344", "date": "13 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-13", "text": "When we have a picture of the number of skilled workers we need, we must decide from which branch of manufacture we can remove them, for Sauckel does not have so many skilled workers. Those who have already arrived are, for the most part, from the East. That is still the most prolific source. Very few come from the West, and they are slowly starting to come from Italy. There are comparatively few skilled workers among them. So we must decide what factories are to be closed or restricted and where we shall take away the skilled workers. I can only let you have details in a few days when I have a complete picture of requirements.\n\"Nobel: If I must speed up repair work in a limited time, I need the labor at once. Since the 16th March not one of the 2,000 people that Sauckel was going to send has arrived. That is already two weeks ago. They tell me that if they have to deliver 50 machines they must have 60 people today or tomorrow. But that won't work because I have not got the people. I have always said - you will not get skilled workers. They answer, then give us others. If we do not fulfill these demands, their confidence in the Jaegerstab will be undermined. This morning I shall met material from Hansen & Co. in Muenster. The Labor office there is not yet clear about the setup of the Jaemerstab and the priority of the fighter program. It is the result of the bureaucracy of the authorities. My men have to argue with the authorities and thereby lose valuable time.\n\"Schmelter: It is now customary, if one fails to produce something, to put the blame on the Labor office. I remind you of the Messerschmitt affair.\"\nMilch interjects: \"That is not so in all cases.\"\nSchmelter, again: \"Assuredly! The gentlemen were with me on Saturday. Into the bargain, they had got back 50 toolmakers from the army, which they had had in the meantime and said, nothing about. First, they could, not employ them, secondly they did not need them, and thirdly they got them elsewhere. Furthermore Sauckel ruts the people at the disposal of the Repair Department. It was immediately reported that the Labor of fices worked too slowly.\"", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 424, "page_number": "345", "date": "13 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-13", "text": "Milch again: \"You will make things easier for yourselves if you build up gradually a small reserve of a few hundred people, at first 500 which you can later raise to 2,000, so that you can cover immediately any need that arises. Then our work will gain the respect of others. At the moment it is like this: either we must transfer people and leave a gap where it is less vital, or wait until the people are brought in by Sauckel. When one sees the figures that Sauckel has produced and ascertains what the armament industry has received, the comparison is ridiculous.\n\"Schmelter: A letter is on the way from the Minister to Mr. Sauckel. During the first three months Sauckel has brought in between 300,000 and 400,000 people, but not even a miserable 66,000 \"red tickets\" could be honored.\n\"Milch: I personally cannot get over it! Take the help away from the housewives! In the past year 800,000 domestic servants have been negotiated and we are fighting for 2,000 men!\n\"Schmelter: In one year the demand for female domestic servants in Germany has risen by 200,000, the demands of the armament industry during the same period by 600. I have arranged that transports that come from abroad are directed straight to the points of greatest need.\n\"Milch: Every week 2,000 people come from the East.\"\nSchmelter interjects: \"Most of them go into agriculture.\"\nMilch again: \"The Jaegerstab has priority over agriculture. Can you not intercept them?\n\"Schmelter: I have arranged that. The 2,000 are disposed of: some of them are already there. But it does not always happen that the reports of the firms are 100% correct. We have often checked that up. It often happens that firms take the people and put them into another branch of production but still shout for people for the high priority processes.\n\"Nobel: That is not the case in my repair industry!\n\"Frydag: Yesterday I was in Wiener Neustadt. The works have a considerable assignment and a hefty, increase. Merely in order to get out of the room unscathed I gave them 200 men from the airframes industry.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 425, "page_number": "346", "date": "13 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-13", "text": "\"Schmelter: In Wiener Neustadt there was a demand for 1,000 or 1,500. A thousand were supposed to come from Air Fleet 2 in Italy. An Engineer official Weidinger was going to produce them. On Sunday I received a phone call to the effect that the Engineer official could not produce them.\n\"Frydag: That is quite right. But you must put yourself in the firm's place. The firm must have these people.\n\"Schmelter: Then I must see to it that I take them from somewhere else.\n\"Milch: You know our position. We are convinced that you do everything you can. But we must now commit a robbery. We can no longer operate along legal lines.\n\"Schmelter: That is the only possibility.\"\nMilch again: \"There will be abuse but we must accept that.\n\"Schmelter: I shall go tomorrow to Mr. Sauckel and say to him that he must give the fighter industry the next transport of workers from the East. The proposal that the fighter industry should not give back the laborers it received who originally worked in agriculture, has been turned down by Sauokel. I am commissioned to inform you of this.\n\"Milch: That is out of the question. Nothing shall go out of the fighter industry!\n\"Schmelter: I am commissioned to say that he must have this labor back again.\n\"Milch: Later, not now! One more thing. We must protect all the factories working for the fighter program. We must say to the, You must not give up people for anything whatsoever except on the command of the Jaegerstab. None can touch you, not even the local Labor offices and the ministerial authorities; requests for personnel must all be directed to the Jaegerstab. We must put that out clearly as an order.\"\nPetri interjects; \"That is already in previous minutes.\"\n\"Schmelter: May I request that this order should be extended to the management and repair personnel of the electricity and gas works.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 426, "page_number": "347", "date": "13 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-13", "text": "\"Milch: I can only do it for the Jaegerstab. I am not doing it for the bomber and other branches either as only we have that special authority.\n\"Schnelter: I should like to ask that it should only be done for manufacture and not construction.\n\"Milch: Agreed! We must write a letter to Keitel OKW and a letter to Sauckel saying: Requests are to be made only directly to the Jaegerstab.\"", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 427, "page_number": "348", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "MR. KING:It is clear from this document that the Jacgerstab had a priority in all matters of production, including labor, and that it had supreme power in the matter of labor for fighter factories in its jurisdiction.\nThe Prosecution now wishes to offer Document Number NOPW-365, Page 142, English Document Book 4: Page 142 of the German Document Book. This is, again, part of Prosecution's Exhibit Number 75. It contains an excerpt from the April 12, 1944, meeting of the Jacgerstab. These minutes show the Defendant Milch personally agreeing to demand labor from Sauckel. Lange is speaking. This is Page 142.\n\"Lange: Schmelter's men complain especially that they have no chance to make severe demands on Sauckel which would be carried out.\n\"Saur: Field Marshal, it would be best if you yourself went to Sauckel as the man in charge of Labor recruitment.\n\"Milch: I shall tell him that the 10,000 red tickets have not been covered.\"\nIn addition to obtaining labor through the Sauckel Ministry, it is clear, as the succeeding series of documents will show, that in some instances, the Jacgerstab made special efforts to get workers, by direct recruitment, from foreign countries, thereby by-passing Sauckel.\nDocument NOK -390. This next series of prosecution Exhibits consist of references to direct recruitment of labor at the meetings of the Jaegerstab.\nThese excerpts, as the Tribunal will see, show that the Defendant Milch actively urged forcible methods of recruitment in the procurement of labor. Milch was present at each of these sessions of the Jacgerstab.\nThe first document in this series is on Page 150 of your Honors' Document Book, and Page 150 of the German book. It is part of Prosecution Exhibit Number 75. The Document Number isNOKW-390. It is an excerpt from the May 4, 1944, meeting of the Jacgerstab. I might say Sauckel and Nagel were referred to as the transportation experts of the Jaegorstab.", "speakers": [ "MR. KING" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 428, "page_number": "349", "date": "13 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-13", "text": "Both were members. This document shows that the Jaegerstab, itself, was bringing in labor from Italy, and that it was using its own transportation to do so. Saur is speaking.\n\"Saur: Can the arrival of the reported 50,000 Italians be relied on?\nBy what date will the first transport arrive? This wording is, frankly, unintelligible. It was quite clear that the 50,000 Italians were coming so that the transport facilities were quaranteed long ago. How did such a report get into the minutes of 14.4?\n(Comment: The camps into which these people are to go do not even exist yet.)\nWe shall not get any further like this! Inform Mr. Schmelter. \"Milch: Are they coming via Sauckel?\n\"Saur: No. This is our own undertaking. Pueckel has clarified various doubtful points with Nagel and got ready a large number of vehicles and now all that comes to nothing, Schmelter must report on it tomorrow, not in the sense of whether it can be done, but that this and that must be done and by such and such means.\"\nThe next document which the Prosecution wishes to introduce in this series is N0KW-442. It is Page 151 of the English Document Book, and page 151 of the German Document Book. This is an excerpt from the May 5, 1944 meeting of the Jaegerstab, Schmelter reported on the reasons for the delay in the arrival of the Jaegerstab transport from Italy, Schmelter states the reason for the delay is the lack of adequate guards. He states transports wore leaving that very day. The Defendant suggests that any of those who attempt to escape from the transport while in route should be shot. I might add that the Dr. Wendt referred to in this excerpt is an engineer in the Luftwaffe. Schmelter is speaking. This is Page 151.\n\"Schmelter: Then, the transport of the Italians. 50,000 Italians have not yet been transported. It was due to the fact that the escort for the transport has not yet been appointed.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 429, "page_number": "350", "date": "13 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-13", "text": "The conversation yesterday with the Plenipotentiary in Milan proved that the transport should leave today for this place, Woerl, where further distribution will be undertaken, I booked another call this morning, but did not get through. I hope to be able to give more details tommorrow.\n\"Milch: Has a proper reception center been set up in Weerl?\n\"Schmelter: Yes.\n\"Milch: It is assured that the number of those leaving is in reasonable preparation to those arriving?\"\nThe party replying is not identified.\n\" That shall be. A man has been appointed by Schmelter to travel down there especially and control directly the conscription of civilians.\n\"Milch: Is there someone at the Escort Detachment Hq. in Italy responsible for seeing that people do not get out and run away during the journey? That is what the escorting personnel is there for.\nMilch: Someone of standing?\n\" Dr. Wendt is responsible for the whole undertaking.\nMilch: I am of the opinion that, if anyone jumps out, he should be shot; otherwise a thousand will get on and only twenty will arrive there. The gendarmerie and all military posts must look out for those who abscond on the journey. They will be arrested at once and will appear before a court martial.\"\nIt clearly indicates the treatment the personnel to be recruited from foreign countries was getting enroute. The next document in this series deals with the procurement, employment and allocation of concentration camp labor by the Jaegerstab. The first document which the Prosecution wishes to offer is on Page 161 of Your Honors' Document Book. It is Document N0KW-369 and, again, it is again part of Prosecution Exhibit Number73. This is an excerpt from the Jaegestab meeting of June 27, 1944.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 430, "page_number": "351", "date": "13 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-13", "text": "The Defendant did not attend this meeting. However, we have his personal initialed copy of the minutes.\nI have previously described for Your Honors' edification; the operating capacities of the participants in this meeting. At this session; Schmelter; in the excerpt I shall read, reports that 12,000 female concentration camp internees had been demanded; their disposition had been provided for.\nIn connection with this same document, I also make reference to the excerpt on Pages 27 and 23. The original is on Page 161 of the Document Book. The decision is made to employ English and American flyers in fighter production or in the component parts industry. Starting with the speech of Schmelter-\nDR. BERGOLD:May it please the Tribunal, I would appreciate it; if you would not permit this document to be introduced. I ask that for the following reasons: The Prosecution admits that the Defendant Milch was not present at this meeting. It can be seen by the affidavit which was submitted that he had already resigned on 20 June 1944 and transferred his office to someone else. Therefore, according to my opinion; it cannot be sufficient that he received a copy; that he initialed that copy. The Prosecution has to prove that at this particular moment he was still in possession of that responsibility The documents introduced show that exactly the opposite is true.\nMR. KING:I would like to point out to Your Honors that we have no evidence that the Defendant Milch was no longer a member of the Jaegerstab; that these are personally initialed minutes from his own personal file, and that their probative value is for the Tribunal to determine. We submit that they are relevant. They are minutes of an organization which ceased to operate on July 31, or August 1, 1944. The Defendant still held a participating interest. Milch initialed these minutes for his file. They were kept in his file. That is indicative that he not completely resigned his duties as a member of the Jaegerstab.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Dr. Bergold, did you think this exhibit was competent, even if the Defendant had never heard of it under the theory of conspiracy, whereby the acts of any of the conspirators are binding on the others?", "speakers": [ "MR. KING", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 431, "page_number": "352", "date": "13 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-13", "text": "DR. BERGOLD:May it please the Tribunal, the point of course is to be ob served. They must take into account the period time. Milch was out on the 20-tin of June. From that print on he was no longer Generalluft zaigmeister; therefore, I am of the opinion that he can not be held responsible for the actions which occur after the 20th of June, even if we take it under the point of view of conspiracy.\nMR. KING:If Your Honor please, I have something to add to that. I notice that the defendant states that he resigned as Luftzaigmeister and State Secretary in the Air Ministry. He makes no reference to the Jaegerstab. He states that the Jaegerstab ceased operation in July or August. He is not entirely clear there. He states very clearly that on June 20, he left his duties as Generalluft zaignmeister and Secretary of State in the Air Ministry. It is the only evidence which has been presented to the Tribunal as yet that the Defendant ceased to actively operate in production matters after June 20, 1944.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The Prosecution includes within the scope of the conspiracy any acts done under the Jaegerstab, do you not?\nMR. KING:We do. We have attempted to trace the background of the Jaegerstab; to show by documents submitted, that Defendant Milch was originator of the conspiracy and that he conceived the conspiracy and instigated the formation.\nWe have shown that the crimes of the conspiracy extended beyond June 20, 1944, which date we do not accept as Milch's resignation date from the Jaegerstab. He stated in the interrogate n that he resigned as Generalluft zaignmeister and Secretary of State of the Air Ministry.\nTHE PRESIDENT:But he continued under the Jaegerstab?\nMR. KING:That is right.\nTHE PRESIDENT:He continued the same alleged criminal acts which you charged him with in his former capacity?", "speakers": [ "MR. KING", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 432, "page_number": "353", "date": "13 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-13", "text": "MR. KING:That is correct, Your Honor.\nTHE PRESIDENT:What do you say to that Dr. Bergold?", "speakers": [ "MR. KING", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 433, "page_number": "354", "date": "13 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-13", "text": "THE PRESIDENT:Is my voice getting through?\nDR. BERGOLD:Sir?\nTHE PRESIDENT:The point is, if I may explain to you; that the defendant is here accused of continuing with unlawful acts in one capacity, and then, immediately after, in another capacity, and that does not make any difference, that this document arose during the second phase of these acts instead of the first.\nDR. BERGOLD:May it please the Tribunal, I have so far understood the defendant as well as the prosecution that on 20 June his activities with the Jaegerstab, too, were ended, of course, later on I shall prove that, so then I shall withdraw my objection but reserve the right to come back to it at a later point.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Very well.\nDR. BERGOLD:Very good.\nMR. KING:Starting with this document on page 161 of the English Document Book No. 4, with Schmelter speaking:\n\"Schmelter: I have a few more points. Up till now 12,000 female concentration camp internees, Jewesses, have been demanded. The matter is now in order. The SS has agreed to deliver these Hungarian Jewesses in batches of 500. Thus the smaller farms, too, will be in a position to employ these concentration camp Jewesses better. I request that these people should be ordered in batches of 500.\nMahnke: How many are still there.\nSchmelter: There are still enough there.\"\nThe Prosecution now wishes to introduce Document N0KW 362, which is Prosecutor's Exhibit No. 75, at page 149 of the English Document Book and page 149 of the German. This is an excerpt taken from the Jaegerstab Staff meeting dated May 1 to 3rd, 1944. Defendant Milch was in attendance at this meeting. I read the reference to the speech by Schnauder, concerning the Heinkel factory, starting at the second paragraph at page 149:\n\"SCHNAUDER: 1) At the Heinkel factory at Barth there are 3,300 workers, consisting of 300 Germans and 3,000 concentration camp inmates. Of the 3,000 concentration camp inmates 1,500 are men. In order to maintain their working capacity it is necessary to evacuate these men too during daylight air attacks.", "speakers": [ "MR. KING", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 434, "page_number": "", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "However, there are not enough guards and sometimes 354A there is a deficit of as many as 20.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 435, "page_number": "355", "date": "13 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-13", "text": "As guards can not be drawn from any other source, it has been decided that the factory is to arm a.s guards certain men from its own ranks to guard the concentration camp inmates.\"\nThis document clearly shows the involuntary character of the labor employed at that factory within the jurisdiction of the Fighters' Staff.\nWith the incumbency of the invasion in the West, transfers of labor of the interior were discussed at meetings of the Jacgerstab; including labor employed in the Speer Labor Factory System.\nThe next document the Prosecution wishes to introduce shows the defendant's position in regard to recruitment; and treatment of this labor. The first document of this series is on page 143 of the English Document Book, and 143 of the German. This document is N0KW-334; and again a part of Prosecution Exhibit No.75. The participants in this discussion include Wegener, who was in charge over all planning of the Jaegerstab; Werner who was in charge of aircraft or motors; Schaaf in charge of Supply of the Jaegerstab; Schaede who was in charge of Rationalization under Saur; Heyne who was chief of the airplant production; and Kleber who was chief of the OK in the Jaegerstab. The Tribunal will see from, this excerpt that type of treatment of personnel the defendant was advocating; as for the personnel transferred to Lorraine; the defendant treated them, as prisoners, and confined them, to barracks. Your Honors will also see in the case of the prisoners of war the defendant advocated their transfer to Brunswick on the assumption that air attacks against Brunswick would continue. This is at page 143 of the English Document Book, Wegener speaking:\n\"WEGENER: I have a question for Schmelter: Has the question of the transfer of Western Europeans been clarified?\nWERNER:On this subject I can say that it is especially difficult for BMW, because we can only transfer Russians and concentration camp in mates, and the guards for these are mainly Belgians and French.", "speakers": [ "WERNER" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 436, "page_number": "", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "\"WEGENER: As far as I can remember, 200 key personnel are needed for Markirch.\n355A", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 437, "page_number": "356", "date": "13 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-13", "text": "MILCH:That must be brought before the Fuehrer again.\nSCHAAF:Saur come back and said there was no more to be said on this subject to the Fuehrer.\nMILCH:That is out-of-date now. I have discussed with Saur the fact that we can not keep up this state of affairs. Saur is of my opinion. It must be discussed once more with the Fuehrer. I can discuss it again with the Reichsmarshal.\nWe shall do what we can, but we cannot throw everything into confusion without due consideration. How should we then manage to produce!\nI am convinced that the Fuehrer will agree as soon as we can put these people reasonably, into barracks, so that they do not come into contact with the population.\nSCHAEDE:Whenever French key personnel are brought to Lorraine, they run away without fail in a short time. Then the firm has to be told. They do not come back from leave already.\nMILCH:It will only work if we put these workers into barracks, he cannot exactly treat them as prisoners. It must appear otherwise, but it must be so in practice.\"\nThen again Milch on page 33 speaks:\n\"MILCH:........ I am personally convinced after talking to the Fuehrer that he will agree as soon as it is made reasonable. The people should \"not be able to mingle with the population and to conspire. Nor should they be allowed to run around free, so that they can cross the frontier every day. Both practices must be stopped.\"\nThen, later on, Heyne speaking.\n\"HEYNE: I have two short points. Yesterday Machrisch-Truobau was removed from the program, because the Quartermaster General told me the previous night that it was possible to move on the morning of 28.4. Last night I was called up again, because the Chief of Prisoners of War Affairs did not quite agree with the now accommodation in Brunswich of the prisoners from Maehrisch-Truebau for some reasons of security.", "speakers": [ "MILCH", "SCHAAF", "SCHAEDE" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 438, "page_number": "", "date": "13 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-13", "text": "I should like to ask Major Kleber, who was also yesterday announced as Mr. Saur's liaison officer with the OKW, to exert some pressure hero. Apart from 356A that General Schmidt said:", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 439, "page_number": "357", "date": "13 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-13", "text": "there were also some fighter units and such like in the burracks; he could not move out as quickly as that; he would not take orders; otherwise he would go to the Reichsmarshal.\"\nStarting again with the paragraph \"Apart from that General Schmidt said: \"Apart from that General Schmidt said: there were also some fighter units and such like in the barracks; he could not move out as quickly as that; he would not take orders; otherwise he would go to the Reichsmarshall.\nMILCH:I am of the opinion that that must be done at once. It's all the same to me if individual people do object. Protest does not interest me at all, whether from the Chief of Prisoners of War Affairs or from our side. Kleber, would you be so good as to take care of this?\nKLEBER:As far as prisoners of war are concerned I can take care of it, but not where it concerns the Air Force. That must be handled separately.\nMILCH:Naturally. This must be handled by us. There was in fact, another proposal but we do not want it. Otherwise someone else will come complaining.\nKLEBER:I should like to transfer the prisoners further off to Brunswick.\nMILCH:I think it is an excellent idea for the prisoners to go there if Brunswick continues to be attacked.\nSAUR:I must come back again to the question of Western European workers. Make an energetic attempt to make a compromise within the factories. I think it will work out. I do not think the Fuehrer will give in even if we put the French into barracks. He has spoken so firmly and for reasons which I cannot but recognize.\nI am all the more thankful that permission has been given for the Protectorate. I am going to see Staatsminister Frank on Friday, and I shall discuss with him the whole question of dispersal in the Protectorate. I should like Schmelter to accompany me to Prague on Friday to discuss the question of transfer of workers.\"", "speakers": [ "SAUR", "MILCH", "KLEBER" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 440, "page_number": "358", "date": "13 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-13", "text": "That is on the question of the transfer of Czech workers.\n\"MILCH: I said before that we wanted to carry out the transfer within the factories. Then if something is left over, we should have to approach the Fuehrer again, but only on condition that they arc in barracks, and that there are replacements for them.\"\nA second document in this series which the Prosecution would like to bring to the Tribunal's attention is document NO. NOKW No. 350. This is at page 159, in the English Document Book, 177 in the German's. This again is part of the Prosecution's Exhibit No. 75. This is an excerpt from the Minutes of the -Jaegerstab Staff meeting of June 1st to the 3rd, 1944. On page 159 Milch speaking:\n\"MICH: We must write off these areas in France completely, and above all the factories which arc situated further into the country towards the South and West. For when the invasion begins, the guarding neither of a stretch of land, nor of a line will be possible, nor will anything function because of sabotage.....\nNo Frenchman will work when the invasion begins. I am of the opinion that the French should be brought over again by force, as prisoners.\nSAUR:I should prefer to do it sooner.\nLANGE:We have machines there too, in particular the presses.\nMILCH:Everything must come out: machines and men.\"\nHere we have the defendant advocating the stripping of territories in France, and the deportation of the population by force to Germany. By August 1, 1944, the achievements of the Jaegerstab were considered so successful that it was decided to enlarge the scope of its activity in order to include other phases of its achievements, and on that date a decree was issued to dissolve the Jaegerstab, creating in its place the \"Rustungsstab.\" This change of name is referred to in Document NON -335, at page 164 cf the English Document Book, at page 162 of the Germans. This is an excerpt from the Jergerstab meeting dated 31 July, 1944. We have introduced this document to set the period of the existence of the Jaegerstab.", "speakers": [ "SAUR", "MILCH", "LANGE" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 441, "page_number": "", "date": "13 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-13", "text": "as between March 1, 1944 and August 1, 1944. The success with which the Jaegerstab accomplished its task is shown by the last document 358A in this Jaezerstab series, which the Prosecution wishes to introduce.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 442, "page_number": "359", "date": "13 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-13", "text": "THE PRESIDENT:Will you give us that date again, that is, was it April?\nMR. KING:March 1st, Your Honor.\nTHE PRESIDENT:March 1st.\nMR. KING:To August 1st, 1944.\nTHE PRESIDENT:That covers the life of the Jaegerstab.\nMR. KING:That is right.", "speakers": [ "MR. KING", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 443, "page_number": "360", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "We will locate this document in a moment, Your Honor. It's again part of our 124, Prosecution Exhibit No.48-F, the report on tho conference of June 3 to 5, 1944 with the Fuehrer. The document is on Page 85 of tho English Document Book, Page 88 of the German, and shows the effectiveness of tho Jaegerstab as an-operating party. I will road paragraph No. 20 on Page 85 of the prepared notes on the Fuehrer's conference:\n\"In this connection, I explained to the Fuehrer that the opinion of the Reich Marshal, that the Army equipment for which I was responsible had kept back Air Force equipment in the last two years, was contradicted by the fact that since the beginning of the Fighter Staff in three months in spite of air attacks, aircraft production had doubled and this was not achieved in a short space of time by newly introduced production potentials from the Army equipment industry, as the Reich Marshal assumes, but solely by reserve which originated from the Air Force equipment industry itself.\"\nThis concludes at this time the presentation of documentary evidence concerning the Jaegerstab.\nMR. DENNEY:If Your Honor please, I am afraid we have run out of document books again. We have one more phase of the case: the medical experiments; and I believe, Dr. Bergold, you had a copy of the German book served on you, did you not? The next book? You haven't received one as yet?\nDR. BERGOID:No, sir.\nMR. DENNEY:We hope to get it soon this afternoon. It's the same story we have had before. We have worked so long on it. This will be our last document book.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Dr. Bergold, if you got the next document book this afternoon, will you be ready to proceed tomorrow morning then? Will that be sufficient time?\nDR.BERG0LD: Yes. Yes, Your Honor.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The Court will then be in recess until tomorrow morning at nine thirty.\nTHE MARSHAL:This Tribunal is recessed until nine thirty tomorrow morning.\n(The Tribunal adjourned until 14 Jan 1947 at 0930 hours.)", "speakers": [ "DR.", "THE PRESIDENT", "DR. BERGOID", "MR. DENNEY", "THE MARSHAL" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 444, "page_number": "361", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the Matter of the United States of America against Erhard Milch, defendant, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 14 January 1947, 1105-1700. Justice Toms presiding.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Mr. Denny, before you proceed with the presentation of further proof, we would like to take up with you and Dr. Bergold the application for some witnesses.\nThe Defense has filed with the Tribunal applications for the production of several witnesses. The first one is Lester Gauss, who is a prisoner of war now in this city, and to which the Prosecution offers no objection. The Court will later enter an order permitting the production of that witness.\nThe next one is Kerkhoven van Denterghem, Belgian Ambassador in Berlin, to which the Prosecution does object upon the ground that the matters to which he would testify have to do with waging aggressive war, and that there is no count in the Indictment charging that offense.\nDo you wish to be heard, Dr. Bergold, on that?\nDR.BERGOLD (Counsel for defendant Milch): May it please the Tribunal, I ask for this witness for the following reasons; Namely because the Prosecution in their preliminary speech said that the defendant Milch know in advance or used his position under Goering to promote rearmament and that in advance he agreed with all the aims and goals of National Socialism. In my opinion, that is rather an important point in order to understand this matter which is before you whether he agrees on a full understanding between Belgium, France and Germany for a full cooperation and whether he actually tried to secure peace for Europe and forever. If he did that and if later on this thing did not succeed for reasons which are not his fault, this must be considered when trying to understand this man and his character, and in my opinion it can be a mitigating circumstance. I also refer to the fact, for instance, that the International Military Tribunal regarded it as a mitigating circumstance with the Defendant Speer that he opposed the destructive orders given by Hitler, although they referred to the German people only.", "speakers": [ "DR.", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 445, "page_number": "362", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "I must be able to prove that Milch was not the Nazi who is depicted by the Prosecution. That is the reason for my application in the case of Kerkhoven, Van Zeeland, Cot, and Delbos.\nMR. DENNEY:If Your Honors please, Your Honor mentioned the first point, the fact that Milch is not made the defendant against the subsequent charge of waging aggressive war. As to the statement by Dr. Bergold that Speer's opposition was considered as a mitigating circumstance, the Doctor will certainly agree that that opposition took place late during the period of the war.\nThird, the time in question, about which Count Kerkhoven van Denterghem is to be called is all prior to 1939, and I remind Your Honors that at the time of the invasion of the Low Countries, irrespective of what private statements to anyone may have been, this man was a general in the Luftwaffe and later a Field Marshal in the Luftwaffe, and it seems to me that his record, even as far as we are, is completely inconsistent with the matters that Dr. Bergold seeks to establish by producing this and other witnesses for whom he has asked.\nThe statement made in the opening was merely an outline of the defendant's career. The Court has his own statement that he was a soldier during the last war, that with some exception ho has been in the army ever since. The position which he held at the conclusion of the war, Field Marshal, irrespective of whether or not he had been shown of some of his posts, is clearly indicative of his attitude, at least between 1939 and 1945, whatever it may be now and whatever he may have expressed privately prior to those years.\nI submit that the witness in question is not one who could cast any light for the benefit of the Court in these proceedings.", "speakers": [ "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 446, "page_number": "363", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "THE PRESIDENT:The applications submitted by the DEFENSE for the production of the following witnesses, will be denied by an appropriate order which will be entered:\nPierre Cot, French Air Minister of 1937; and KREIPE (FLIGHT GENERAL) GAUSS, the Defendant's Adjutant in 1937; VAN ZEELAND, Belgian Prime Minister in 1937; COUNT Kerkhoven van Denterghem, Belgian Ambassador in Berlin, and DELBOS, FRENCH Minister of Foreign Affairs in 1937.\nLargely, because of the date, indicated, these applications will be denied.\nNow, Mr. Denny, the Defense proposes to produce Von Neurath. I direct your consideration to the particular portion of the applications which says: \"Soviet Russia denounced all treaties of the Czar Government, including the Geneva Convention and The Hague Agreement. Therefore, at the time of the acts indicated in the indictment, there was no agreement regarding the treatment of prisoners of war and the civilian population between Germany and Russia.\" Do you regard that as in issue.\nMR. DENNY:Sir, we do not regard that as an issue, due to the fact that we maintain that it makes no difference whether the Soviet Union was a party to the Geneva and The Hague conventions. GERMANY was!\nBy the same token, if they had been engaged in war against some colony of a country the people of which had never heard of the GENEVA CONVENTION, then it would seem the force of their logic would be that in view of the fact that just because these people had never been subscribers to it, they would not be entitled to proper treatment as prisoners of war!\nAnd, it is submitted, that has no bearing on this matter, whatsoever! There was a document which was submitted in CASE NO. 1, which we propose to produce at the proper time, an opinion by Admiral CANARIS. I believe it is document No.EC 338, in which he states that the custom of chivalrous treatment of prisoners of war was a custom that had grown up through the ages; it was only CODIFIED at GENEVA and at the HAGUE; and he indicates that the policy which was planned by the WEHRMACHT at that time placed it in a position where it had knowledge of all of the standards of chivalry which had grown up as regards treatment of prisoners of war and Civilian people in time of combat.", "speakers": [ "MR. DENNY", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 447, "page_number": "364", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "Of course, if your Honor please, conceding that the testimony of von Neurath would be that the U.S.R.R. had withdrawn from that: The Hague Agreement and the Geneva Convention; still, even if the man can come in and testify to it, I submit, it has no bearing at all on this case.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The Court gets your point, Hr. Denny, that had there been no Treaty, yet anyone who acts as complained of here would, nevertheless, have boon CRIMINAL; but it does indicate that you can not rely on the breach of treaty obligations as far as the Russians are concerned, perhaps you may rely on something else; and there was at least no contractual obligation, if I nay put it that way, to treat the RUSSIAN prisoners of war and the civilian population in any given way.\nMR. DENNY:I think, if your Honor please, that it might be true that the Russians are, in the nature of an incidental beneficiary; perhaps, they were not specifically mentioned because they weren't party to the contract; but even if they were initially a party to the contract and then withdrew our point is that GERMANY had to abide by those prisoner of war rules which other countries had set up and of which she ha.d become a subscribing member. But, if for reasons known to the SOVIET UNION they intended to withdraw from them, GERMANY would still be bound to treat their prisoners of war according to the contract.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Docs that mean, that your position taken here is in effect, that the SOVIET having withdrawn, that GERMANY would still have to abide by and could not withdraw from the contract, even after it becomes unilateral?\nMR. DENNY:That is for your Honors to determine. I think, having boon a signatory to the THE HAGUE AGREEMENT and THE GENEVA CONVENTION, they can not withdraw the contract, already entered into.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The TRIBUNAL will hear Dr. Bergold on this point.\nDR. BERGOLD:Hay it Please your Honors and The TRIBUNAL, I disagree with Mr. Denny in this matter, The contractual obligations existed between Germany and all the other countries which joined the GENEVA Agreement and The HAGUE Convention.", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD", "MR. DENNY", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 448, "page_number": "365", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "The contract still would hold good for these countries. However, it did not apply to RUSSIA which had explicitly withdrawn because, if so, this would be a contradiction as to all contracts. When a contract is concluded between two persons or powers and one of the two parties says: \"I RESIGN\"! then, of course, surely, he can't ask the second party to keep its part of the contract! The point in question we are trying to prove here, is that the Defendant MILCH was told explicitly by the competent people! The HAGUE Convention and The GENEVA Convention did not apply to RUSSIA because they had withdrawn from all of these treaties and they never stick to any of their treaties, and have never made a statement to the effect that they would stick to these treaties in the future. The witness von Neurath can make statements to that effect.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 449, "page_number": "366", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "THE PRESIDENT:Well, the Prosecution will pass on this matter later. I mis-spoke. I should have said the \"TRIBUNAL\"!\nThis leaves before us the question of the introduction of testimony of Admiral Raeder impeaching certain documents purporting to be a transcript of a speech by HITLER.\nDr. Bergold, was this same proof presented at the INTERNATIONAL TRIBUNAL?\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes, your Honor.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Would it not be possible to present the proof that you wish to offer, by means of the transcript of the proceedings at that TRIBUNAL?\nMR. DENNEY:We are willing to concede that as to any document offered, that proof if it is genuine is proper proof. We are concerned with the method of offering that proof.\nDR. BERGOLD:May it please the Tribunal, concerning this record, we have spoken a. lot about THE INTERNATIONAL TRIBUNAL. It is quite correct that on that day there was a speech by Hitler. The Defendant Milch we wasn't asked concerning this matter in the first trial, now tells me about certain points in Case No. 1, which was the case before the International Tribunal. And we understand that the Schmundt memorandum was set up only after the outbreak of war, which was much later. This viewpoint before THE INTERNATIONAL TRIBUNAL was never put forth by any of the interested defendants; therefore, I must be given an opportunity to bring forth this new point of view, by interrogating RAEDER!\nMR. DENNEY:If your Honor please, the document under discussion, was offered in evidence before the INTERNATIONAL TRIBUNAL. Present at the Conference in HITLER'S headquarters on May 23, 1939, were: GAUSS, RAEDER, MILCH, the defendant here, Keitel, von Neurath, and GOERING!\nThat trial took ten months; and it's beyond belief, that GRAND ADMIRAL RAEDER who was a defendant at that trial, this defendant, (who was called as a witness), Von Neurath (who was here in jail), and GOERING, (who was in the docks) could not remember that that memorandum was made at a much later time, and did not offer it, at that time!It seems to me inconceivable, that that case could have gone on, with these men present, without it having been mentioned that Schmundt's notes on the Conference were later revised!Dr. Bergold said it wasn't offered, in the first case! Yet Admiral Raeder took the stand in the first case.", "speakers": [ "MR. DENNEY", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 450, "page_number": "367", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "There was a man fighting for his LIFE! And yet he never mentioned that Schmundt's notes on the conference of May 23rd, 1939 were later revised; never mentioned the fact that those notes were compiled after the beginning of hostilities!\nTHE PRESIDENT:Your argument, Hr. Denney, goes to the weight to be attached to the proposed testimony, does it not?\nMR. DENNEY:My argument goes to the weight to be attached to the proposed testimony; and, also, the International Tribunal comment on this document, its opinion; and I would be glad to get your Honors that opinion, and read it to your Honors!\nTHE PRESIDENT:Well, Hr. Denney, what Dr. Bergold states is that the proposed document does not contain anything which HITLER said on that day, and it is obvious, that it does not, because he spoke for a couple of hours and several pages indicate that! Now, what Dr. Bergold proposes, is to have the Defendant indicate other things which HITLER said, which do not appear in this document. So, therefore, -- at least to me -- that would appear to be relevant.\nMR. DENNEY:If Dr. Bergold wants to lay the foundation to admit it, and then call Admiral RAEDER to corroborate what he says, we have no objection.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Very well, then; no opposition on the DEFENDANT'S testimony being offered that the SCHMUNDT transcript does not contain a complete record, or a true record, the TRIBUNAL will authorize the production of the witness RAEDER, to corroborate the Defendant's testimony if, and when, it is offered.", "speakers": [ "MR. DENNEY", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 451, "page_number": "368", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 452, "page_number": "369", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "THE PRESIDENT:Mr. Denny, the court has also permitted to allow the production of witness Von Neurath.\nMR. DENNY:If your Honor Please, we now come to the proof of the defendant's responsibility for the medical experiments performed upon human beings against their will and in disregard of their well-being and their lives. We concern ourselves with high altitude experiments conducted in low pressure chambers and with freezing experiments which were carried out by exposing experimental subjects to cold water and to extreme degrees of dry cold, following which various methods of reviving the victims were tried. The high altitude experiments began about the middle of March and lasted into June in the year 1942. The cold water experiments were initiated about the middle of August 1942 and were completed during October. The dry cold experiments were conducted during, the period from February through April 1943. During this time Milch was Inspector General of the Air Force, State Secretary in the Air Ministry and General Luftzeugmeister. In the former position he was in command of the office which authorized research and medical experiments conducted in behalf of the Air Force. General Hippke who was the physician in change of the Luftwaffe medical Department was directly subordinate to the defendant. As General-luftzeugmeister, head of Air Ordnance, Milch had charge of the development of technical experiments for the Luftwaffe. It may well within the provinces of the defendant in the capacities stated above to encourage scientific experiments conducted for the purpose of developing better equipment for the protection of German fliers against low pressure hazards at high altitude and for the purpose of determining the best method of reviving fliers brought down over cold water. It was a characteristic vice of the Nazi movement that not even scientific projects could be carried out lawfully, so it was with these experiments. The essence of the crime charged in paragraphs 8 and 9 of Count II and paragraph 11 of Count III of the indictment is that human beings, without their consent, were subjected to experiments which put them in danger of injury and death. Positive proof will be offered that many victims were forced to undergo these experiments - for others of whom no detailed information is available - the prosecution will rest on the proposition that the conditions of concentration camp privation and persecution out of which experimental subjects were drawn, precluded the possibility of free consent as it is known to the law.", "speakers": [ "MR. DENNY", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 453, "page_number": "370", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "This defendant was in a position of responsibility. Evidence will be offered to prove that Milch was in control of experimental equipment, that he had, authority over at least one notorious experimenter and that he exercised his jurisdiction over both. We will show that the defendant was put on notice that the experiments were being conducted in a criminal manner, and that this information came to him under conditions which made it absolutely incumbent upon him to fully inform himself concerning the method of conducting the experiments. The Court will see that the defendant was treated by all concerned as a fully informed and officially responsible person. Our evidence will show that this defendant was either an informed criminal or an authorizing principal who closed his ears to unpleasant details and thus he was equally culpable. This then will be the pattern of our proof - that experiments were conducted for the benefit of the Luftwaffe - which were brutal, criminal and fatal - with which the defendant was officially connected - and which received his knowing authorization. At the outset of this part of our case we would ask the Court's attention to two points: first, Milch could have avoided culpability by expedients as simple as refusing to authorize the use of experimental equipment, or by ordering the withdrawal of this equipment - he could have put himself on record as opposing the experiments by refusing to allow Doctor Rascher and others to participate in them. We did none of these single honorable acts. Instead we find him extending the period during which the equipment might be used and we find him expressing an approving interest in the work of the infamous Rascher. Second, we would remind the Court that this is the same man who hardened his heart against the plight of thousands of foreign workers who were oppressed slaves of the Nazi war effort. Nothing could be more in character than that this zealot of total conquest should be callous as well to the right to life of the anonymous hundreds who became victims of Nazi Pseudo-science.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 454, "page_number": "371", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "The documents in this case will be presented to your Honors by Mr. McMahon.\nMR. McMAHON:May it please this Honorable Court, the first document which the prosecution will introduce is Number 418 which will be Prosecution's Exhibit Number 77. This is a chart showing the organization of the Luftwaffe Medical Corps. It was confirmed and signed by Dr. Oskar Schroeder, representative Chief of Dr. Hippke in the Medical Inspection in 1940. Later in 1944 Dr. Schroeder succeeded Hippke as head of the Medical Inspection. Throughout the chart which represents a portion of the original there has been changed only in a few respects, so that this larger version could be presented for illustrative purposes. We do not contend that it includes every office or person in the Medical Corps, but it does give a general idea of the organizational picture. Defendant Milch appears at the top of the chart. His position as Inspector General of the Luftwaffe is not indicated, yet the fact is that he did occupy this office throughout 1942, as well as being Secretary of State in the Air Ministry, General Field Marshal and General Luftzeugmeister. The later position he was named to in 1941. A chain of command in organization and technical matters runs from Milch to Hippke, Chief of the Medical Inspection, and on the right hand side the line runs through various offices to the DVL, the Berlin Research Institute to which Doctors Ruff and Romberg were attached. All the medical institutes and luftwaffe Medical men were subordinate to the Medical Inspection Chief Dr. Hippke. The black line, representing technical matters only, which runs from Hippke's office to the DVL illustrates this. The DVL was subordinate to Hippke's office in technical matters, at the same time being subject to Milch through the brown line in organizational and technical matters. Dr. Weltz's Institute in Munich is in the lower left-hand corner - the brown line which stops at the edge of the chart continues on, finally running to Hippke, thence to Milch. Dr. Rascher's position is indicated by the brown arrows. Here at Dachau the experiments took place. He was temporarily assigned to work with the SS, but still retained his status as a Luftwaffe physician and rose from Second Lt. to Captain in the Luftwaffe. At all times during the low pressure and the freezing experiments, Dr. Rascher was under the command of the Luftwaffe.", "speakers": [ "MR. McMAHON" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 455, "page_number": "372", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "The next document to be introduced in evidence will be 1602-PS and is to be found on page two of the English Document and Page 2 of the German. This will be Prosecution's Exhibit No. 78. This document is a letter from. Dr. Rascher to the Reichsfuehrer Himmler and is his original request for professional criminals and feeble-minded people to be used in high altitude research. It is dated 15 May 1941.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 456, "page_number": "373", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "\"Dear Reichsfuehrer:\n-- Going down to the second paragraph -- for the time being, I have been assigned to the Luftgaukommando VII, Munich, for a medical course. During this course, where researches on high-altitude flights play a prominent part (determined by the somewhat higher ceiling of the English fighter planes), considerable regret was expressed at the fact that no tests with human material had yet been possible for us, as such experiments are very dangerous and nobody volunteers for them. I put, therefore, the serious question: can you make available two or three professional criminals for these experiments? The experiments are made at Permanent Luftwaffe Testing Station for Altitude Research (Bodenstaendige Pruefstelle fuer Hoehenforschung der Luftwaffe) in Munich. The experiments, from which the subjects can, of course, die, would take place with my cooperation. They arc essential for researches on high-altitude flight and cannot be carried out, as has been tried, with monkeys, who offer entirely different testconditions. I have had a very confidential talk with a representative of the air forces Surgeon who makes these experiments. He is also of the opinion that the question could only be solved by experiments on human persons. (Feeble-minded could also be used as test material). I hope sincerely highly esteemed Reichsfuehrer that, in spite of the immense burden of work you carry, you are in the best of health. With my heartiest wishes, I am with Heil Hitler your gratefully devoted. Signed S. Rascher.\"\nThe next document the prosecution will offer in evidence will be Prosecution Exhibit No.79. This is a letter from Rudolf Brandt, Himmler's adjutant, replying to Rascher's letter. It will be found on Page 3 of the English book and 4 of the German book. In this case it is document(Book No. 1) 1582 PS, Document Book 5A is the correct number. In this letter from Brandt, he says that prisoners will be made available for the experiments. The letter reads: \"Dear Dr. Rascher: Shortly before flying to Oslo the Reichsfuehrer SS gave me your letter of 15 May 1941, for partial reply. I can inform you that prisoners will of course be gladly made available for the height-flight researches.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 457, "page_number": "374", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "I have informed the Chief of the Security Police of this agreement of the Reichsfuehrer SS. and requested that the competent official be instructed to get in touch with you. I want to use the opportunity to extend my cordial wishes to you on the birth of your son. I shall refer as soon as possible to the second part of your letter. Heil Hitler. By order (initials) R. Br.\", which is the initials of Rudolf Brandt.\nThe next document which we will offer in evidence is 400-PS. which will be Prosecution Exhibit No.80. This will be found on page 4 of the document book 5-A, and 5 of the German copy. This document is the report made by a major -- Major Alexander, U.S. Army Major, who investigated these experiments and drew up a report on them which has been documented. It is entitled, \"The Treatment of Shock from Prolonged Exposure to Cold, Especially in Water.\" Now reading, \"It is indeed a curious irony of fate that Himmler, who may have killed his friends the Rascher, for the purpose of keeping secret their experiments, has indeed become -- after his own death -our best source of information concerning every detail and result of these experiments, since, while ordering others to destroy papers and evidence, he, a man of such obviously obsessive qualities found himself unable to dispose of a single scrap of paper.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 458, "page_number": "375", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "He preserved all in his special cave hideout, where it was discovered later by American troops. Dr. Rascher obviously was a prodigious letter writer and self-advertiser, which is helpful now, in that it provides information concerning every detail of his work and activities. His interminable preliminary reports, his many letters telling Himmler and his underlings what important work he is doing -- he sometimes sent off more than one letter a day -- have indeed become a most interesting social and historical document, which, however, concerns us only partly for the purpose of this report.\n\"The idea to start the experiments with human beings in Dachau was obviously Dr. Rascher's. He first proposed it in a letter to Himmler dated 15 May 1941. Dr. Rascher states that while attending a course in aviation medicine at the Luftgaukommando VII in Munich, he began to feel that the problems of human physiology at extreme height should be studied in experiments \"in human material\". He requested that Himmler place \"professional criminals\" at his disposal for this purpose, since it was expected that nobody would volunteer for such experiments in which 'the experimental subjects might, die.' He added that the 'Prufostollo for Hobenforschung der Luftwaffe', the organization headed by Dr. Weltz (mentioned above) would be ready to carry out these experiments. On 24 July 1941, Himmler authorized the experiments to be carried out by Dr. Rascher, Dr. Kottenhoff, and Dr. Weltz. A letter from Mrs. Rascher to the Reichfuehrer S.S., dated 24 February 1942, gives further details concerning the progress of the arrangement. This letter was written by Mrs. Rascher 'under my husband's orders' because by that time Dr. Rascher, who was commissioned in the S.S. as well as in the Luftwaffe, had been given to understand that he would have to do all his writing through Luftwaffe channels.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 459, "page_number": "376", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "Dr. Kottenhoff had left the team because he was transferred to Roumania. Dr. Weltz was supposed to initiate all technical aspects of the experiments in Dachau, but because he sensed some difficulties in terms of possible objection from higher Luftwaffe authorities, who he heard might consider such experiment's as 'amoral', he delayed the start of the experiments until the Director of the Luftfahrtferschugsansfalt Berlin-Adlershof, Dr. Ruff, and his assistant, Dr. Romberg, joined forces and arrived in Dachau with a low pressure chamber which they supplied. Thereupon a conference was held at Dachau in which Dr. Weltz, Dr. Rascher, Dr. Romberg, and Dr. Ruff took part, and in which technicalities were arranged with Obersturmfuehrer Piorkawski and Obersturmfuehrer Schnitzler of the Dachau Concentration Camp. Dr. Weltz agreed to supply the necessary orders for Dr. Rascher. The actual experiments were begun by Dr. Romberg and Dr. Rascher at the concentration camp in Dachau in March 1942. Dr. Rascher was given an additional stipend from the Research Institute 'Ahnenerbe'. Additional instructions were given by S.S. authorities that Dr. Rascher should personally take an active part in all the experiments on human beings in Dachau, at the request of Mrs.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 460, "page_number": "377", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "Rascher, who felt that the other members of the group wanted to have him removed. Mrs Rascher felt that Dr. Weltz particularly wanted to retain ail control of and responsibility for, the experiments and that he wanted to push Dr. Rascher aside; for that reason, in a personal interview with one of Himmler's adjutants, she suggested that Dr. Rascher be attached to the Luftfabrtferschungsansfelt Berlin Adlorhof, in order to make it impossible for Dr. Weltz to transfer him elsewhere. Himmler's office then asked Generaloberstabsarzt Professor Dr. Hippke for the transfer, but Dr, Hippke merely prolonged the orders detailing Rascher to Weltz's organization in Munich. The final report, however, was not published until 28 July 1942. (The full report of these organizations on 'Salvage from highest altitudes', in which the effects of cold were not studied, will be referred to in another report on miscellaneous aviation-medical matters).\n\"The cold experiments in human beings were authorized on 20 May 1942, in a letter stamped secret and addressed by Generalfelsmarschall Milch to S.S. Obergruppfuehrer Welff in Himmler's office. In this letter, Generalfeldmarschall Milch acknowledges receipt of a telegram of 12 May 1942. He states that the experiments on the effects of great heights have been concluded, but that other important experiments concerning air sea-rescue problems arc regarded as important and desirable. He status that the necessary orders had been given; that Oberstabsarzt Weltz had been ordered to carry them out and that Rascher had been placed at Dr. Weltz's disposal on a part-time basis. He goes on to thank the S.S. for their cooperation with the Supreme Command of the Luftwaffe. Of particular interest is a letter from Rascher to Himmler, dated 15 June 1942. In this report -- in this he reports a conversation with Generaloberstabsarzt Professor Dr. Hippke concerning the cold experiments in human beings. Dr. Hippke is said to have requested these cold-water experiments.\"", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 461, "page_number": "378", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "The next document which the Prosecution will offer in evidence is document 1971-PS, which will be Prosecution Exhibit 81. This will be found on page 8 of the English document book and on page 9 and 10 of the German. This is Rascher's first report on the progress of the high-altitude experiments, made to Himmler. This is the first report. Rascher had begun the experiments at about March 15, 1942, the date he arrived at Dachau. This report mentions the fact that deaths had occurred, as is indicated by the autopsy reports on page 3. First reading of the letter which accompanied the report: \"Highly esteemed Reichsfuehrer. Enclosed is an interim report on the low pressure experiments so far conducted in the concentration camp of Dachau. May I ask you respectfully to treat the report as secret. A few days ago Reich Physician SS (Reichsarzt-SS) Professor Dr. Grawitz made a brief inspection of the experimentation plant. Since his time was very limited no experiments could be demonstrated to him. SS Obersturmbannfuehrer Sievers took a whole day off to watch some of the interesting standard experiments and may have given you a brief report. I believe, highly esteemed Reichsfuehrer, that you would be extraordinarily interested in those experiments. Is it not possible that on the occasion of a trip to southern Germany you may have some of the experiments demonstrated to you?", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 462, "page_number": "379", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "If the results so obtained by the experiments are confirmed by further experimentation, entirely new data will be secured for science; simultaneously entirely now aspects will be opened to aviation. I hope that, thanks to the intended efforts of SS Obersturmbannfuehrer Sievers, the Luftwaffe will make no difficulties from now on. I am very much indebted to Obersturmbannfuehrer Sievers as he has **** shown a very active interest in my work in every respect. I thank you respectfully, highly esteemed Reichsfuehrer, for the generous realization of my proposition to conduct such experiments in the concentration camp. With my best wishes for your personal wellbeing, I am, Gratefully yours, signed S. Rascher.\"\nThe next document which the prosecution will offer in evidence is NO-318, which will be Prosecution Exhibit No.82. This will be found on page 9 of the English book and 13 of the German document book. This document is a letter of 16 April 1942 from Obergruppenfuehrer Karl Wolff, of the SS a member of Himmler's personal staff and liaison man between Himmler and the Luftwaffe in this matter of medical experiments. It is addressed to General Professor Dr. Hippke and requests the prolongation of Rascher's assignment in Dachau. This letter demonstrates that the authorization of Rascher was by the Luftwaffe and subject to the decision of the Medical Inspection. The letter reads: \"To the Chief of the Medical Service, General Oberstatsarzt, Professor Dr. Hippke. The Stabsarzt Dr. Rascher was commended for special experiments, the execution of which to pother with the experimental establishment for Air Navigation was rendered possible by the Reich Fuehrer SS at Dachau, to the experimental establishment for Aviation, Branch Office Dachau from March 16th until April 16th, 1942. The results obtained until now require a continuation of the experiments, particularly as they cannot bo completely terminated in the time provided as the procuring of a few technical appliances caused difficulties which can only be removed during next week. In the interest of the guarantee of a successful conclusion of the experiments, it is therefore requested to order the continuation of the authorization provisionally for four more 379-a weeks until the termination of the experiments.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 464, "page_number": "380", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "Place of command; establishment for experiments for Aviation, Branch Office Dachau. The special research carried out, or actually taking place at Schengau will be individually executed together with the experiments at Dachau by Stabsarzt Dr. Rascher as has been done so far. Signed, SS-Obergruppenfuehrer and Lieutenant General of the Waffen SS.\"\nThe prosecution's next exhibit will be No, 83, which is Document No. NO-219. It is to be found on page 10 of the English Book, and on page 16 of the German book. This document is a letter dated 27th of April 1942 to Dr. Rascher, from Rudolph Brandt. Here Brandt asks Rascher to make up an over-all report on the experiments so Himmler can personally present it to Milch. This shows that Himmler intends to acquaint Milch with the progress of the experiment, and indicates that Milch is the Luftwaffe chief in these experiments. The letter reads: \"Dear Comrade Dr. Rascher: The Reichsfuehrer has soon your letter of 16.4.42. He has shown the same interest in this report as in the one you sent recently. Ho would like you to make up for him an overall report on the experiments carried out to date, which he would like to present personally to General Fieldmarshal Milch. Kind regards to your wife and yourself. Yours. (initialed) R. Br., (Rudolph Brandt).\"\nThe Prosecution now will introduce Document No. 296, which will be Prosecution's Exhibit No. 84. This is on page 11 of the English book, and page 17 of the German. This document is a letter, dated 29 April 1942. This is a reply by Dr. Hippke to Wolff's letter regarding an extension of Rascher's command. Hippke states that he has forwarded Wolff's letter to the physician of Airgau (VII with the request for extension. The letter reads: \"To the Reich Leader SS, Chief of Personal Staff. I have received your recommendation concerning Stabsarzt (Reserve) Dr. Rascher. The recommendation was forwarded by me to the Air Gau Physician VII with the request to extend the Command. Heil Hitler. Signed Hippke.\"", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 465, "page_number": "381", "date": "14 December 1947", "date_iso": "1947-12-14", "text": "MR. McMAHON:Prosecution will now offer in evidence DocumentNO-220, which will be Prosecution Exhibit No.85. This letter is missing from the English book and the copy you will now receive is a supplemental copy. We will call this page 11a. This is a letter from Sigmund Rascher to the Reichsfuehrer SS Himmler inclosing a shot report. The letter reads:\n\"Highly esteemed Reichsfuehrer:\nEnclosed I am forwarding a short summary on the principal experiments conducted up to date. A detailed report on the practical as well as the theoretical results will take some more time. I shall hurry. Since the material has to be processed the exploitation of the pathological preparations will take about ½ year though the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute for Brain Research will help us, I hope.\n\"Tonight I succeeded in seeing Dr. Fehrenkamp who has relatively recovered. He appeared to be very interested and I think there will be a fine and fruitful co-operation. Dr. Fehrenkamp who has an enormous knowledge most amiably promised to help me in everything. His opinion on my heart experiments he will give to you himself. From our conversation I have had the impression that a great field of work will open up to me yet. I thank you, highly esteemed Reichsfuehrer, for having opened these opportunities to me to such an extent.\n\"Unfortunately the extension of my assignment has not been settled yet; in accordance with the present regulations my assignment will be terminated on May 15.\nThanking you again I am with most obedient greetings and Heil Hitler Yours gratefully, signed S. Rascher.\nI will now read the report which accompanies this letter, which report is dated 11 Hay 1942 and is on page 12 of the English book and, I believe, page 19 of the German copy.\n\"Secret Report.\n\"Based on results of experiments which up to now various scientists had conducted on animals only, the experiments in Dachau were to prove whether these results would maintain their validity on human beings.", "speakers": [ "MR. McMAHON" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 466, "page_number": "382", "date": "14 December 1947", "date_iso": "1947-12-14", "text": "\"1. The first experiments were to show whether the human being can gradually adapt himself to higher altitudes. Some ten tests showed that a slower ascent without oxygen taking from six to eight hours, kept the functions of the senses of the various VP's, Versuchspersonen, human experimental subjects, fully normal up to a height of 8,000 meters. Within eight hours several VP's had reached a height of 9.5 kilometers without oxygen when bends occurred suddenly.\n\"2. Normally it is impossible to stay without oxygen at altitudes higher than six kilometers. Experiments showed, however, that after ascent to 8,000 meters without oxygen, bends combined with unconsciousness lasted only about 25 minutes. After this period the VP's had mostly become accustomed to that altitude; consciousness returned, they could make kneebends, showed a normal electrocardiograph and were able to work (60 to 70% of these cases examined).\n\"3. Descending tests on parachutes, suspended, without oxygen.\n\"These experiments proved that from 14 kilometers on down severest bends occurred which remained until the ground was reached. The deterimental effects caused by these experiments manifested themselves at the beginning as unconsciousness and subsequently as spastic and limp, paralysis, catotomy, stereotypy, and as retrograde amnesia lasting several hours. About one hour after the end of the experiment the VP's for the most part were still disoriented as to time and locality. The blood picture often showed a shift to the left; albumen and red and white blood corpuscles were regularly found in the urine after the experiment; cylinders were sometimes found. After several hours or days the blood and urine returned to normal. The changes of the electrocardiograph were reversible.\n\"Contrary to descending tests on parachutes without oxygen, descending tests with oxygen were carried out from heights up to 18 kilometers. It was proven that on the average the VP's regained the normal function of their senses at 12 to 13 kilometers. No disturbances of general conditions occurred during any of these experiments.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 467, "page_number": "383", "date": "14 December 1947", "date_iso": "1947-12-14", "text": "Brief unconsciousness at the beginning of the experiment caused no lasting disturbance. Urine and blood showed only a slight change.\n\"4. As the long time of descent on parachutes under actual conditions would cause severe freezing even if no detrimental effects were caused by lack of oxygen, VP's were brought by sudden decreases in pressure with a cutting torch from 8 to 20 kilometers, simulating the damage to the pressure machine of the high-altitude airplane. After a waiting period of ten seconds, corresponding to stepping out of the machine, the VP's were made to fall from this height with oxygen to a height where breathing is possible. The VP's between 10 and 12 kilometers and at about 8 kilometers pulled the parachute lever.\n\"5. In experiments of falling from the same height without oxygen the VP's regained normal function of their senses only between two and five kilometers.\n\"6. Experiments testing the effect of Pervitin on the organism during parachute jumps, proved that the severe after-effects, as mentioned under No. 3, were considerably milder. The Hoehenfestigkeit, ability to withstand the conditions at high altitudes, was only slightly improved, while the bends since they were not noticed occurred suddenly.\n\"7. Dr. Kliches, Karls-University in Prague, reports in the publication of the Reich Research Council: \"By prolonged breathing of oxygen, human beings should theoretically be kept fully fit up to 13 kilometers, practically the limit is around 11 kilometers.\"\n\"Experiments which I carried out in this connection proved that with pure oxygen no lowering of the measurable raw energy (ergometer) was noticeable up to 13.3 kilometers. The VP's merely became unwilling since pains of the body cavities grew too severe, dur to the lowering of pressure between body and thin air. when pure oxygen was inhaled bends occurred in all 25 cases only at heights about 14.2 kilometers.\n\"As practical result of the more than 200 experiments conducted at Dachau the following can be assumed:", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 468, "page_number": "384", "date": "14 December 1947", "date_iso": "1947-12-14", "text": "\"Flying in altitudes higher than 12 kilometers without pressurecabin or pressure-suit is impossible even while breathing pure oxygen. If the airplane pressure machine is damaged at altitudes of 13 kilometers and higher the crew will not be able to bail out of the damaged plane themselves since at that height the bends appear rather suddenly. It must be requested that the crew should be removed automatically from the plane, for instance, by catapulting the seats by means of compressed air. Descending with opened parachute without oxygen would cause severe injuries due to the lack of oxygen besides causing severe freezing; consciousness would not be regained until the ground was reached. Therefore, the following is to be requested. 1. A parachute with barometrically controlled opened. 2. A portable oxygen apparatus for the jump.\n\"For the following experiments Jewish professional criminals who had committed \"Rassenschande\" (race pollution) were used; the question of the formation of embolism was investigated in ten cases. Some of the VP's died during a continued high altitude experiment; for instance, after one-half hour at a height of 12 kilometers. After the skull had been opened under water an ample amount of air embolism was found in the brain vessels, and, in part, free air in the brain ventricles.\n\"To find out whether the severe psychical and physical effects, as mentioned under No. 3, are due to the formation of embolism, the following was done: after relative recuperation from such a parachute descending test had taken place, however, before regaining of consciousness, some VP's were kept under water until they died. When the skull and the cavities of the breast and of the abdomen had been opened under water an enormous amount of air embolism was found in the vessels of the brain, the coronary vessels, and the vessels of the liver and the intestines, etc.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 469, "page_number": "385", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "\"That proves that air embolism, so far considered as absolutely fatal, is not fatal at all, but that it is reversible as shown by the return to normal conditions of all other VP's.\n\"It was also proved by experiments that air embolism occurs in practically all vessels even while pure oxygen is being inhaled. One VP was made to breathe pure oxygen for two and one-half hours before the experiment started. After six minutes at a height of 20 kilometers he died and at dissection also showed ample air embolism as was the case in all other experiments.\n\"At sudden decreases in pressure and subsequent immediate falls to heights where breathing is possible no deep reaching damages due to air embolism could be noted. The formation of air embolism always needs a certain amount of time.\n(Signed) Dr. Rascher.\"\nThe next document to be presented isNO-476, which will be Exhibit No. 86. The English copy of this is illegible. Consequently, we are distributing another legible copy. I would like to includeNO-610in this Exhibit No. 86.NO-610is an exhibit containing pictures of high altitude experiments and the results which they had on the experimental subjects.\nTHE PRESIDENT:We have the copies in the book.\nMR. McMAHON:Yes, that was included in the book, Your Honors.\nMR. PRESIDENT:What is meant is the document you just offered includes a lot of photographs?\nMR. McMAHON:Yes, your Honor, plus the affidavit of Dr. Romberg which isNO-476. The pictures arc NO-610. They are accompanied to this affidavit but they are both to be submitted as Prosecution Exhibit No.86. This affidavit of Dr. Romberg reads as follows:\n\"I, Hans Wolfgang Romberg, being duly sworn, depose and state:", "speakers": [ "MR. PRESIDENT", "MR. McMAHON", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 470, "page_number": "", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "\"I. I was born on 15 May 1911 in Berlin. From 1929 to 1935 I studied 385-a medicine at the Universities of Berlin and Innsbruck.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 471, "page_number": "386", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "On January 1, 1938 I became an associate scientist in the Department for Aviation Medicine at the German Experimental Institute for Aviation, hereinafter called the DVL. The Chief of the Department for Aviation Medicine of the DVL was Dr. Siegfried Ruff. I remained with the DVL until the end of the war.\n\"2. From about the first part of March 1942 to about the end of May 1942 experiments were conducted at the Dachau Concentration Camp to determine the effects of extreme high altitudes on the human body. These experiments were conducted for the benefit of the Luftwaffe. Dr. Ruff was first approached to assist in the high altitude experiments at Dachau by Dr. G.A. Weltz, Chief of the Institute for Aviation Medicine in Munich. This was in December 1941 or January 1942. Dr. Weltz advised Ruff that Dr. Sigmund Rascher, a doctor in the Luftwaffe and also a member of the SS, was to perform the high altitude experiments. Weltz wanted an expert to work with Rascher on these experiments.\n\"3. In January or February 1942 Weltz, Ruff, Rascher and I had a meeting at waltz's Institute in Munich to discuss arrangements for the experiments. Dr. Weltz introduced Rascher to us at that time. few days later a second meeting was held in the Dachau Concentration Camp and this was attended by Weltz, Ruff, Rascher and myself as well as Piorkowsky who was the camp commander, and Schmitzler, who was the staff of the Reichsfuehrung-SS. Further arrangements were made at this time for carrying out the experiments.\n\"4. A low-pressure chamber was sent from the DVL in Berlin first to Weltz's Institute in Munich and from there to Dachau. This chamber could duplicate atmospheric conditions and low-pressures prevailing at high altitudes. It consisted of two parts, one of which was used for slow ascensions and descensions and could accommodate as many as 12 people at a time while the other was used for a sudden decompression and could accommodate only one or two people.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 472, "page_number": "", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "This low-pressure chamber was set up in one of the blocks at the Concentration Camp. The experiments actually started around the first part of March and the initial experiments were conducted on twelve prisoners. When prisoners were requested, we asked that they be in a physical condition which compared with members of the Luftwaffe. The experimental subjects were tested in either the large or small part of the chamber, usually one at a time, and 386 a and their reactions to high altitudes were checked with an electrocardiograph.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 473, "page_number": "", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "Four series of experiments were conducted:\n\"a. Slow descent without oxygen.\n\"b. Slow descent with oxygen.\n\"c. Falling without oxygen.\n\"d. Falling with oxygen.\n\"The latter two tests were designed to simulate a free fall from an airplane before the parachute opens.\n\"Several tests were from time to time conducted on the same experimental subject.\n\"5. The experiments lasted until approximately the end of May. During this time I was living at Dachau, and with the exception of several trips to Berlin, I was in Dachau for the whole course of the experiments. On my trips to Berlin I reported to Dr. Ruff as to the progress of the experiments. I remember that Dr. Ruff visited Dachau on at least two occasions when he observed the experiments. Dr. Ruff and I worked at the experimental station at Dachau as representatives of the German Experimental Institute for Aviation (DVL) \"6. I witnessed the death of three of Dr. Roscher's human experimental subjects during the experiments.\nThe first death occurred in the latter part of April. On this particular occasion I was studying the electrocardiograph of the human experimental subject then being tested. After the death of this human experimental subject I raised objections to Rascher and also informed Ruff concerning the matter. Thereafter, two other deaths occurred on different days in May. I also reported these to Dr. Ruff. I know that other experimental subjects were killed on at least two occasions while I was not present and I would estimate that they totaled between five and ten.\n\"7. After a human experimental subject died as a result of the lowpressure experiments, an autopsy was performed. The purpose of this was to determine the exact cause of death. Once, to my knowledge, the autopsy was performed under water in order to observe the air bubbles which might have 387 formed in various parts of the human experimental subject's body.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 474, "page_number": "388", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "I have been shown pictures numbered 1, 2 and 3, which show an open section of the brain of a body and also a dissected portion of the breast. Autopsies of this character were performed at Dachau on experimental subjects who died during the low-pressure experiments and I assume that these pictures are photographs made of such subjects. I know that photographs were made of the autopsies at Dachau.\n\"8. I have been shown a series of other pictures which show persons undergoing experiments in a low-pressure chamber. Of these I recognize the pictures number 1a, 2a, 3a and 4 as being photographs made during the course of the low-pressure experiments conducted at Dachau. I suppose that the other pictures numbered, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, and 45, were also made at Dachau, although I do not know. I do not know of any lowpressure experiments on concentration camp inmates other than those made at Dachau. After the low-pressure experiments were completed, Dr. Rascher and I made a report which was approved by Ruff and signed by the three of us. This was circulated to all interested offices in the Luftwaffe. In my opinion Dr. Anthony of Medical Service of the Luftwaffe must also have received a copy of this report. I do not remember if Becker-Freyseng was with the Medical Inspectorate at the time, but if he was, he certainly know that these experiments were being conducted.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 475, "page_number": "389", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "Welfram Sievers cf the Ahnenerbe Society of the SS was also familiar with these experiments and was in Dachau several times when they were being conducted. I myself saw him there once at the experimental station. Milch and Hippke were also quite familiar with these experiments. Dr. Oskar Schroeder was the second highest ranking officer is the Medical Service of the Luftwaffe in 1942 and he also probably knew of these experiments, although I never personally talked to him about them.\n\"10. No one in the Luftwaffe ever made any objection concerning these experiments. Dr. Weltz certainly never expressed any more scruples against these high altitude tests since it was he who originally asked Dr. Ruff and me to assist Dr. Rascher.\n\"I have read the foregoing deposition consisting of four pages, in the German language, and declare that it is the full truth to the best of my knowledge and belief.\n\"Signed Dr. Romberg, Dated 1 November 1946.\nDR. BERGOLD:May it please the Tribunal, I would appreciate it if you would possible rule on the following which the prosecution has submitted. So far as I can understand there is a certain number of affidavits which are submitted and which are statements made by persons who were defendants in the first trial, the International Military Tribunal. All of these persons make statements which are incorrect and partly that they are is that they take it that the defendant Milch knew about these reports which were made. If it please the Tribunal, I cannot accept these affidavits without objecting to them unless the Tribunal rules that all of these people can be heard here in a cross examination. Otherwise, I would have to object to these affidavits, namely, because these people do not state any reasons why the defendant Milch must have known of all of these things. Therefore, I would appreciate it if the Tribunal could rule. Perhaps all of these people could be used here in Court and cross examined.", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 476, "page_number": "", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "THE PRESIDENT:Dr. Bergold, when a witness states that he supposes another person knew or that another person must have known or some similar statement when the witness has no knowledge of the facts, you may be sure 389-A that the Tribunal will not regard that as true as against the person to whom it is offered.", "speakers": [ "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 477, "page_number": "390", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "DR. BERGOLD:Thank you.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The Tribunal will recess until one thirty.\nTHE MARSHAL:All persons will no arise. The Tribunal will recess until 1330.\n(A recess was taken until 1330)", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 478, "page_number": "391", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1330 hours, 14 January 1947)\nMR. DENNEY:If Your Honors please, during the noon recess we have extracted from the document books of Judges Musmanno and Speight the extra copies of the photographs which were handed up by mistake. There is already a bound copy in Your Honors' books. At this time Mr. Blakesly would appreciate it very much if he could have from Judges Toms and Phillips the loose photographs. Your Honors have in the document book individual photographs mounted on individual pages.\nThis morning when Your Honors were talking about the Geneva Convention I did not have available two papers, one which is the summation of Sir Hartley Shawcross before the International Military Tribunal, speaking of the Reinecke order with reference to the treatment of Soviet prisoners of war dated 8 September 1941. The order is not here in evidence, but I merely bring it up so that Your Honors may have this information at hand. Sir Hartley stated:\n\"That Keitel, who is directly responsible for this order, was issuing it with full knowledge of its implications is made clear by the memorandum of Admiral Canaris dated 15th September 1941, protesting again it, and correctly stating the legal position, as follows:\"\nAnd then follows the memorandum of Admiral Canaris, which states:\n\"The Geneva Convention for the treatment of prisoners of war is not binding in the relationship between Germany and the U.S.S.R. Therefore only the principles of General International Law on the treatment of prisoners of war apply. Since the 13th century these have gradually been established along the lines that war captivity is neither revenge nor punishment but solely protective custody, the only purpose of which is to prevent the prisoners of war from further participation in the war. This principle was developed in accordance with the view held by all armies that it is contrary to military tradition to kill or injure helpless people . . . . The decrees for the treatment of Soviet prisoners of war enclosed are based on a fundamentally different viewpoint.\"", "speakers": [ "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 479, "page_number": "392", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "And the Tribunal in its judgement at Page 16892 states:\n\"The argument in defense of the charge with regard to the murder and ill treatment of Soviet prisoners of war, that the U.S.S.R. was not a party to the Geneva Convention, is quite without foundation. On the 15th of September, 1941, Admiral Canaris protested against the regulations for the treatment of Soviet prisoners of war signed by General Reinecke on the 8th of September 1941. He then stated:\"\nThe Tribunal then quotes in toto the excerpt which I have just read to Your Honors from Admiral Canaris' opinion dated 15 September 1941 and at the end of the quotation, returning to the judgement, the Tribunal states:\n\"This protest, which correctly stated the legal position, was ignored.\"\nI just wanted to have that available to Your Honors for reference, because I don't think that I properly covered it this morning.\nTHE PRESIDENT:If yon want to concede, Mr. Denney, that you do not predicate any criminal charge upon the violation of this Geneva Convention, but simply upon the principles of broad international law -\nMR DENNEY:Exactly.\nTHEPRESIDENT: (continuing) -- why, that would obviate the necessity of calling the witness that Dr. Bergold wants. If you take that position, and take it on the record here so that Dr. Bergold can rely on it, then it won't be necessary to call any witness in his behalf to establish the fact that Russia had withdrawn from the Geneva Convention, or from the Treaty.\nMR DENNEY:We are certainly willing to -- well, if Your Honor please, could I not make a statement for the record at this time about it and make a statement in the morning?\nTHE PRESIDENT:Very well. I suggest that you take that under advisement, which might simplify the calling of witnesses by the defense.\nMR. DENNEY:Yes, Your Honor.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Of course, I don't expect you to abandon any posi ion that the same acts constituted a violation of some other obligation.", "speakers": [ "MR DENNEY", "THE", "MR. DENNEY", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 480, "page_number": "393", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "MR. DENNEY:Yes, Your Honor.\nTHEPRESIDENT: (continuing) -- arising out of international law, or even broad humanitarianism.\nMR. DENNEY:Or the laws and customs of wars as such.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Or any other source, except the treaty.\nMR. DENNEY:Yes, Your Honor.\nMR. MC MAHON:Your Honors, the last document which was introduced before recess was Exhibit No. 86, and it consisted of the affidavit of Hans Romberg and the series of pictures taken of the high altitude experiments.\nThe next document to be introduced is 343-PS-a, which is located on Page 18 of Document Book 5-A and 27 of the German copy. An additional page missing in the German is now being distributed. This document is a letter signed by Erhard Milch, dated 20 May 1942. It will be Exhibit 87. The letter reads:\n\"Dear Wolffy!\n\"In reference to your telegram of 12 May, our medical inspector reports to me that the altitude experiments carried out by the SS and Luftwaffe at Dachau have been finished. Any continuation of these experiments seems essentially unreasonable. However the carrying out of experiments of some other kind, in regard to perils at high seas, would be important. These have been prepared in immediate agreement with the proper offices; Oberstabsarzt Weltz will be charmed with the execution and Stabsarzt Rascher will be made available until further order in addition to his duties within the Medical Corps of the Luftwaffe. A change of these measures does not appear necessary, and an enlargement of the task is not considered pressing at this time.\n\"The low-pressure chamber would not be needed for these low-temperature experiments. It is urgently needed at another place and therefore can no longer remain in Dachau.\n\"I convey the special thanks from the supreme commander of the Luft waffe to the SS for their extensive cooperation.", "speakers": [ "THE PRESIDENT", "MR. MC MAHON", "THE", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 481, "page_number": "394", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "\"I remain with best wishes for you in good comradeship and with \"Heil Hitler!\"Always yours, signed, E. Milch.\"\nThe Court will notice the familiar salutation which Milch uses in this letter, indicating that Milch was quite friendly with Wolff. This letter also shows that the sanitary inspector, Dr. Hippke, was reporting to Milch, and at this date, 20 May 1942, Milch knew about the high altitude experiments. In addition, the letter proves that Milch knew who Mr. Rascher was. Finally, it is proof that Milch was the man who authorized the beginning of the freezing experiments and who had complete control of the disposition of the low pressure chamber.\nReference is now made to DocumentNOKW 318, which will be found on Page 19 of the English and Page 30 of the German Document Book.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Mr. Mc Mahon, your paging is apparently a little different. The exhibit you just read is on Page 19.\nMR. MC MAHON:Yes, Your Honor. The one I just read was Page 18, I think.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Well, in the Court's document book, 18 is missing, and the exhibit which was just read, the letter from Milch to Wolff, is on Page 19. It isn't important, as long as we know what document you mean.\nMR. MC MAHON:Yes. Then this next document, Your Honor,NOKW 3118, is on Page 20 of your book, is that right?\nTHE PRESIDENT:Yes.\nMR. MC MAHON:That will be Exhibit No. 88. This is a Milch interrogation in which he denies knowing or ever hearing the name \"Rascher\" until he was questioned during the proceedings before the International Military Tribunal. In view of the previous document, which was 343-PS-a, it is apparent that Milch was not telling the truth during this interrogation when he denied knowledge of Rascher's name.\nReading from the interrogation, the question about seven lines down from the top!\"I know that you are acquainted with a medical captain, Dr. Rascher, medical major, Dr. Welts and Dr. Romberg.", "speakers": [ "MR. MC MAHON", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 482, "page_number": "395", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "\"A. No, I have neither seen nor spoken with these gentlemen. Dr. Rascher's name I know only from hearing it here in the trial.\"", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 483, "page_number": "396", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "MR. MCMAHON:We now turn to Document No. 261, which is found on Page 24 of the English Document Book, and Page 51 of the German Document Book. This will be Prosecution Exhibit Number89.\nDr. Bergold, do you have this document in your book? It is Number 261.\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes.\nMR. MCMAHON:This is a letter dated 4 June 1942. This is a letter signed by Milch. It is addressed to Dr. Hippke. This is an explicit order to continue using the low-pressure air chambers in the Munich area. The letter reads:\n\"Dear Herr Hippke!\n\"According to the agreement with the Reichsfuehrer SS the lowpressure air chamber for experiments in the neighborhood of Munich is still to be available for two months longer.\n\"Moreover the Stabsarzt Dr. Rascher is, in addition to his tests in the Luftwaffe to be on duty for the present for the purposes of the Reichsfuehrer SS.\" \"Heil Hitler!\"\nDown below it is signed: Milch.\nDR. BERGOLD:I should like to see the original of this document. It is not entirely clear whether or not this brief letter was actually sent or whether this is a copy of it. I cannot tell from the copy I have whether or not this letter was actually mailed. I should like to raise an objection on the basis of the copy I have just seen.\nAccording to the photostatic copy I just saw, or the copy that was sent to the Obergruppenfuehrer Wolff, there is no documentary evidence that the original letter to Hippke was signed and actually sent. I can only assume from what I have here that Wolff received a copy of the letter that was or was not sent to Hippke.\nMR. MCMAHON:I think later on, Your Honors, we will be able to show that this letter was sent and received because of references made to it.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The original document appears to have the signature of the defendant.", "speakers": [ "MR. MCMAHON", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 484, "page_number": "397", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "MR. McMAHON:It does, Your Honor. It appears at the base of the letter.\nDR. BERGOLD:It has only been signed here, Your Honor, on the copy that went to Wolff. There is no evidence that any copy went to Hippke. This is not the original letter to Hippke.\nTHE PRESIDENT:That is not so important as is the fact that it is the original letter signed by Milch.\nDR. BERGOLD:Later I shall prove why this is of importance, and it is for that reason, I raised the objection. I shall be able to prove that this letter was sent to Wolff simply to make him feel better. I shall prove that.\nMR. McMAHON:The next document to be offered in evidence, Your Honor, will be Document Number 2083.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Just a minute, Mr. McMahon. In case there is any doubt, the objection to the admission of Exhibit 89, is overruled.\nMR. McMAHON:Thank you.\nOur next Document is Number 2083. It will be prosecution Exhibit 90. It is to be found on Page 25 of the English Document Book, and I think Page 52 in the German Copy Book. This is a letter dated 15 June 1942, from Dr. Rascher to Himmler, relaying the details of a conference with Hippke in which the latter asked that the freezing experiments should begin pursuant to Milch's order in his letter of 4 June 1942 which is Document 343 PS. Rascher says that the cold water experiments can be started immediately and that Hippke does not want to work with the Luftwaffe but merely to continue his assignment in cooperation with the S/S. The letter reads:\n\"Esteemed Reichsfuehrer!\n\"A few days ago I was ordered to a conference with the Inspector of the Luftwaffe Medical Service (Luftwaffensanitaotswesen) Generaloberstabsarzt Professor Dr. Hippke. When I told him that you had not yet received the report concerning the experiments as a whole, and that you still had to give permission for the reporting of the results, he did not ask for any report.", "speakers": [ "MR. McMAHON", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 485, "page_number": "", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "The Inspector was extraordinarily kind and asked me, as liason man with the SS, to express to you, esteemed Reichsfuehrer, his private thanks for the experiments.\n\"At the same time, he asked for permission to carry out the cold and water experiments in Dachau, and asked that the following be engaged in these experiments:\n397-A \"Professor Dr. Jarisch, of the University of Innsbruck, \"Professor Dr. Holzloehner, of Kiel, as well as the Luftwaffepathologist, \"Professor Dr. Singer, of Schwabing Hospital.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 486, "page_number": "398", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "(I know Professor Singer personally very well). The Inspector designated the experiments as extraordinarily important, as we must count on another winter in the East.\n\"Later during the discussion I was asked to inquire of you, esteemed Reichsfuehrer, whether the Gestapo can investigate whether the above mentioned gentlemen are politically unexceptionable.\n\"It was also decided that the Inspector would issue orders to me at all times during the experiments. The Inspector said that he would prefer to approve long-term assignment rather than to free me from the Luftwaffe, as he needed me.\n\"The water experiments can be started immediately.\"\nTHE PRESIDENT:With reference to the Inspector, they mean Hippke?\nMR. McMAHON:Yes, Your Honor, Medical Inspector Dr. Hippke.\nOur next document will be 1618-PS. It will be Prosecution Exhibit 91. It will be found on page 26 of the English Document Book and on page 53 in the German Document Book. This is an intermediate report by Rascher dated 10 September 1942 on intense chilling experiments in the Dachau Camp which began on 15 August 1942. This report is worthy of note in that it mentioned the occurrences of fatalities during the freezing experiments with cold water.\nReading the report:\n\"Experimental procedure:\n\"The experimental subjects (V P) were placed in the water dressed in complete flying uniform, winter or summer combination and with an aviator's helmet. A life jacket made of rubber or kapok was to prevent submerging. The experiments were carried out at water temperatures varying from 2.5 to 12 °°. In one experimental series, OCCIPUT, brain stem, protruded above the water, while in another series, OCCIPUT, brain stem, and back of the head were submerged in water.", "speakers": [ "MR. McMAHON", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 487, "page_number": "", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "\"Electrical measurements gave low temperature readings of 26.4 398-A. in the stomach and 26.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 488, "page_number": "399", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "5° in the rectum. Fatalities occurred only when the brain stem and the back of the head were also chilled. Autopsies of such fatal cases always revealed large amounts of free blood, up to one-half liter, in the cranial cavity. The heart invariably showed extreme dilation of the right chamber. As soon as the temperature in these experiments reached 28° the experimental subjects (VP) died invariably, despite all attempts at resuscitation. The above discussed autopsy findings conclusively proved the importance of a warming protective device for the OCCIPUT when designing the planned protective clothing of foam type.\n\"Other important findings, common in all experiments to be mentioned: Marked increase of the viscosity of the blood, marked increase of hemoglobin, an approximate five-fold increase of the leukocytes, invariable rise of blood sugar to twice its normal value. Auriculer fibrillation made its appearance regularly at 30°.\n\"During attempts to save severely chilled persons (Unterkuehlte) it was shown that rapid re-warming was in all cases preferable to slow re-warming, because after removed from the cold water, the body temperature continued to sink rapidly. I think that for this reason, we can dispense with the attempt to save intensely chilled subjects by means of animal heat.\n\"Re-warming by animal warmth, animal bodies or women's bodies, would be too slow. As auxiliary measures for the prevention of intense chilling, improvements in the clothing of aviators come alone into consideration.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 489, "page_number": "400", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "The foam suit with suitable neck protector which is being prepared by the German Institution for textile research (Deutsches Textilforschungsinstitut) Muenchen-Gladbach deserves first priority in this connection. The experiments have shown that pharmaceutical measures are probably necessary if the flier is still alive at the time of rescue.\"\nThis document is signed by Dr. Rascher.\nThe next document to be presented is Number 234. It will be Prosecution Exhibit 92. This is on Page 29 of the English Document Book.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Page 28.\nMR.McMAHON: 28. Thank you, Your Honor. It is Page 55 in the German Document Book. This is Rascher's accompanying letter to Himmler in connection with the report just read. Here Rascher asks Himmler's decision on the question of submitting his report at the forthcoming Luftwaffe meeting.\nThe letter reads:\n\"My dear Reichsfuehrer, \"May I submit in the enclosure, the first intermediary report about the freezing experiments.\n\"In the beginning of October a meeting on the subject of freezing experiments is to take place. Professor Dr. Hoezloehner, participating in our Dachau experiments on behalf of the Luftwaffe, wants to give on this occasion an account of the results of our experiments in Dachau. SS-Obersturmbannfuehrer Sievers, who surveyed the experiments in Dachau last week, believed, that if any report was to be made at a meeting, I should be called upon to submit the report. A discussion with other experts on freezing experiments would surely be very valuable. I, therefore, request your decision:\n\"1.) Can a report be made elsewhere before the oral report has been submitted to you, my Reichsleader, \"2.) Is my participation in the conference on the subject of freezing experiments of the Luftwaffe, ordered by you, my Reichsleader?", "speakers": [ "MR.", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 490, "page_number": "401", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "I will take care that the report is submitted in the appropriate manner due to a Top Secret matter.\n\"Yours gratefully and respectfully, \"Heil Hitler!\"It is signed \"Your very devoted,\" followed by the signature of Sigmund Rascher.\nThe next document which we will offer in evidence is Document Number 1611 PS. It is dated 22 September 1942. This will be Exhibit Number 93. It will be found on Page 29 of the English Document Book and Page 56 of the German Document Book. This is Himmler's acknowledgment of Rascher's intermediate report. In this letter signed by Himmler the Reichsfuehrer asked that all possible experiments with rewarming be carried out. The letter reads:\n\"Dr. Rascher \"Munich-Dachau \"I have received the intermediate report on the freezing experiments in the Dachau Concentration Camp.\n\"Despite everything, I would so arrange the experiments that all possibilities , quick warming, medication, animal warming will be executed in positive experiment orders.\"\nIt is signed by H. Himmler.\nThe next document to be offered in evidence is Document Number 285, which will be Prosecution Exhibit Number94. It is found on Page 30 of the English Document Book, and on Page 57 of the German Document Book. This is a letter from Dr. Rascher to Obersturmbannfuehrer Rudolph Brandt saying that Milch failed to attend the meeting held in his office in the RLM on 11 September 1942; consequently Rascher did not make the report since he was commissioned to report only to field Marshal Milch.\nI call your attention to the fact that Rascher said the distribution list for this report had been prepared by the RLM.\nI will now read this report dated 3 October 1942.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 491, "page_number": "402", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "\"Most honored Obersturmbannfuehrer!\n\"First of all I want to thank you very much for \"Das Glaeserne Meer\" (The Glass Ocean). My wife and myself are very happy to possess now a complete set of these books. I have already read the book with great interest.\n\"The Reichsfuehrer--SS wants to be informed of the state of the experiments. I can announce that the experiments have been concluded, with the exception of those on warming with body heat. The final report will be ready in about 3 days. Professor Holzloehner, for reasons that I cannot fathom does not himself want to make the report to the Reichsfuehrer and has asked me to attend to it. This report must be made before 20 October, because the great Luftwaffe conference on freezing takes place in Nuernberg on 25 October. The report on the results of our research must be made there, to assure that they be used in time for the troops. May I ask you to arrange for a decision from the Reichsfuehrer regarding the final report to him, and the submission to him of the relevant material?", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 492, "page_number": "403", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "\"Today I received your letter of 22 September 42 in which the Reichsfuehrer orders that the experiments on warming through body heat must absolutely be conducted. Because of incomplete address it was delayed. Today I asked Obersturmbannfuehrer Sievers to send a telegram to the camp commander immediately, to the effect that four gypsy women be procured at once from another camp. Moreover, I asked SS-Obersturmbannfuehrer Sievers to take steps to have the low pressure chamber made ready for use.\n\"The report to General Field Marshal Milch planned for 11 September could not be made, as you have discovered, because he was prevented from attending, and no representative was commissioned to receive it. As the Reichsfuehrer had not empowered me to report to anyone in the Reich Air Ministry (RLM), I abstained from making the report, which rather nettled the gentlemen of the Medical Inspectorate (Sanitaetsinspektion). I immediately informed Obersturmbannfuehrer Sievers. For the time being the report is being held as a military secret at the German experimental Institute for Aviation (DVL) together with a distribution list prepared by the Reich Air Ministry. The distribution of the copies, however, has not yet taken place because, as I said, the report has not yet been made to Milch. I assume that you were informed of this whole business long ago. What shall we do now?\nI wish to enclose a letter of thanks to the Reichsfuehrer from the former prisoner Neff. At the same time I should like to thank you very much for your efforts; and let me beg you, should opportunity offer, to convey to the Reichsfuehrer my most sincere thanks for his granting of this request. I did not write to the Reichsfuehrer in person in order not to make any further demands on his valuable time.\n\"With best wishes and Heil Hitler.\"\nYours most sincerely, S. Rascher.\"\nMR. MC MAHON:The next document which the prosecution will offer in evidence is No. 289, dated 8 October 1942, which will be marked as Prose cution's Exhibit No. 95, and found on page - it seems this copy is missing, so you 403-A will now receive a typewritten copy which will be numbered Page 31-A in your document book.", "speakers": [ "MR. MC MAHON" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 494, "page_number": "404", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "We have distributed this correct copy. The copy now appearing in the document book is incomplete so we have now distributed this typewritten copy, which is to be numbered as 31-A. This document is a letter from Dr. Hippke to Himmler expressing Dr. Hippke's thanks for the aid given by Himmler concerning the Dachau experiments. Here we have -\nTHE PRESIDENT:Pardon me.\nMR. MC MAHON:Yes, sir.\nTHE PRESIDENT:This document is already in the book and seems to be the same one you yourself handed up.\nMR. MC MAHON:The trouble seems to be that almost an entire sentence is omitted, so we have submitted this corrected copy and we will read from that, because the other one will not make good sense.\nTHE PRESIDENT:But there is a difference.\nMR. MC MAHON:There is a difference, Your Honor.\nTHE PRESIDENT:All right.\nMR. MC MAHON:In this letter we see Dr. Hippke mentioning how great a value these experiments for great heights for the aviation-medical problems of the Luftwaffe. The letter reads:\n\"Very honored Herr Reichsfuehrer SS:\n\"In the name of the German research on aviation-medical problems I beg to thank you very obediently for the great help and all the interest shown in the Dachau experiments. These experiments form a supplement which is, for us, of great value and importance.\n\"The fact that an atmosphere with so little oxygen can be endured at all for some time is most encouraging for further research.\n\"It is true that no conclusions as to the practice of parachuting can be drawn for the time being, as a very important factor, viz. cold, has so far not yet been taken into consideration; it places an extraordinary excess burden on the entire body and its vital movements, so that the results in actual practice will very likely prove to be far more unfavorable than in the present experiments.", "speakers": [ "MR. MC MAHON", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 495, "page_number": "405", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "\"In the meantime the supplementary tasks required now have \"been begun. In part they will have to be finished only after completion of the new Research Institute for Aviation Medicine of the Reich Air Ministry, whose low pressure chamber will include all cold generating apparatus, and also an installation for producing conditions up to a height of 30 km. Sub-freezing experiments in another direction are, in part, still being made at Dachau.\n\"When the work will need once more you sympathetic assistance, may I be allowed to get in touch with you again through Stabsarzt Dr. Rascher?\nWith Heil Hitler (signed) Prof.\nDr. Hippke.\"\nThe next document which the prosecution will offer in evidence is Document No. 1616-PS, which will be Prosecution's Exhibit No. 96, at page 38 of the English document book and page 62 of the German book. This Rascher report to Himmler is dated 12 February 1943 and tells of the result of his experiments with animal re-warming. I will not read this report but shall pass on to the next document at this time.\nThe next document will be Document No. 1580-PS, which will be Prosecution Exhibit No. 97, to be found at page 41 of the English document book and at page 71 of the German book. This is a letter from Himmler to Rascher, dated 26 February 1943, acknowledging receipt of Rascher's report and letter on the re-warming experiments, and that his request for further chilling and re-warming tests be made under natural conditions of cold weather. In the same document Himmler agreed with Rascher's request. It reads as follows:\n\"Dear Rascher, \"Best thanks for your letter of 17 February with report on re-warming experiments.\nI agree to experiments being made at Auschwitz or Lublin, although I believe that the time for the chilling and re-warming tests under natural conditions of cold weather has nearly passed for this winter. I am sending this letter at the same time to SS Obergruppenfuehrer (SS Lt. Gen.) Pohl, whom I request to order the execution of your experiments at Lublin or Auschwitz.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 496, "page_number": "406", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "\"Kind greetings and Heil Hitler!(signed) H. HIMMLER\" The next document to be introduced as Prosecution's Exhibit No. 98 is DocumentNO-240. It is found on page 42 of the English document book and page 72 of the German book.\nThis letter is from Dr. Rascher to Himmler, together with a brief report of the dry-cold experiments carried out on human beings. The letter reads:\n\"To the Reichsfuehrer SS and Chief of the German Police Heinrich Himmler.\n\"Dear Reichsfuehrer:\n\"Enclosed I beg to submit a brief report concerning freezing experiments on human beings exposed to the open air.\n\"Early in May I hope to be in a position, dear Reichsfuehrer, to submit to you my habilitation thesis. SS Obersturmbannfuehrer Professor Dr. Pfannenstiel of Marburg is prepared to use and accept it as a secret thesis of habilitation.\n\"Do you want me to send a copy of the enclosed report to the Reich Physician SS?\nWith most devoted greetings and Heil Hitler, I am always Your obedient and grateful (signature) S. Rascher.\"\nThe next document is No.NO-241, thereby being Prosecution's Exhibit No. 99, and will be found on page 43 of the English document book, and page 73 of the German book. This is a letter from Rudolf Brandt to Dr. Rascher acknowledging Himmler's receipt of the Rascher report on dry-cold freezing experiments. The letter reads:\n\"Dear comrade Rascher:\n\"The Reichsfuehrer SS has received the report concerning the freezing experiments on human beings exposed to the open air, and thanks to you for transmitting same.\n\"Kindly contact SS Gruppenfuehrer Professor Gebhardt who received from Reichsfuehrer SS your report for study.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 497, "page_number": "407", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "Please ask SS Gruppenfuehrer Gebhardt personally at Hohenlychen when your visit would suit him.\nAlso send copy of the report to the Reich physician SS. I take the opportunity of confirming receipt of your letter of April 4, 1943.\nCordial greetings and Heil Hitler.\n(signature) Yours, RBr. Rudolf Brandt Obersturmbannfuehrer.\n\" This supplies the Tribunal with the group experiments carried out by Dr. Rascher and his associated in the Luftwaffen, the medical corps for the benefit of the Luftwaffen, and pursuant to orders of the defendant Milch.\nWe shall now proceed with a number of these experiments performed upon involuntary prisoners, and showing of their numerous results.\nThe next document to be offered in evidence is Document 2428-PS, which will be Prosecution's Exhibit No. 100, and will be found on page 45 of the English Document Book, and page 74 of the German Document Book. This document contains testimony of Anton Pacholeff, given under oath at Dachau on 13 May 1945. Mr. Pacholeff was an inmate of the Dachau Concentration Camp, and was a former patent lawyer in Austria. On page three of this witness' testimony is stated that extreme experiments were certain to result in death which would accompany the later pressure experiment. On page 3 also Pacholeff tells how the experimental subjects were selected. The court will note that on the question of giving the subject a free choice, it was not even considered. I shall read the questions and answers, beginning at:\nQ.In light of your being at this investigation, what would you say of interest to this proceeding as to what you knew of this experimental station?\nA.First, I want to talk about experiments with air pressure in connection with the Luftwaffe. The Luftwaffe delivered here the Concentration Camp at Dachau a cabinet constructed of wood and metal, measuring one meter square and two meters high. It was possible in this cabinet to either increase or decrease the air pressure. You could, observe through a little window the reaction of the subject inside the chamber.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 498, "page_number": "408", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "The purpose of these experiments in the cabinet was to test human energy, and the subject's capacity and ability to take large amounts of pure oxygen and then to test his reaction to a gradual decrease of oxygen, almost approaching infinity. This amounted to a vacuum chamber in what had been a pressure chamber at the beginning of the experiment. Such prisoners were chosen for these experiments upon written request which was sent to Berlin. Suggested names of prisoners in this camp were sent, and authorization was received here in camp----\"\nDR. BERGOLD:I have not any copy, it is missing.\nMR. McMAHON:You may get a German copy. Do you have it, Dr. Bergold?\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes, Your Honor.\nMR.McMAHON: \"---Then the experiment was begun. Dr. Sigmend Rascher actually picked the physical subjects, and sent the names to Berlin. He chose these persons from the group in camp within the punishment company, which group was made up of political prisoners who had already been marked for extermination. A few convicts were among these political prisoners, having been placed there merely to depress the morale of the political prisoners, and, so, a few convicts were killed along with others.\nQ.What do you know of the so-called \"Rascher Process\"?\nA.The process, so-called, is more or less a slang term. It was simply a method of testing persons ability to withstand extreme air pressure. Some experiments would have no physical effect on a person, but would only be indicated by meter recordings. There were extremes, however, in these experiments. I have personally seen through the observation window of the chamber when a prisoner inside would stand a vacuum until his lungs ruptured. Some experiments gave men such pressure in their heads that they would go mad, and pull out their hair in an effort to relieve the pressure. They would tear their heads and face with their fingers and nails in an attempt to maim themselves in their madness. They would beat the walls with their hands and head, and scream in an effort to relieve pressure on their eardrums. These cases of extremes of vacuums generally ended in death of the sub ject.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "MR.", "MR. McMAHON", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 499, "page_number": "409", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "An extreme experiment was so certain to result in death that in many instances the chamber was used for routine execution purposes rather than an experiment. I have known Rascher's experiments to subject a prisoner to vacuum conditions, or extreme pressure conditions, or combinations of both for as long as thirty minutes. The experiments were generally classified into two groups, one known as the living experiments, and the ether simply as the \"X\" experiment, which was a way of saying \"execution\" experiment.\nAt this time, Your Honors, I would like to read into the record testimony of one Walter Neff which was taken from the official transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of United States of America versus Karl Brandt., et al. defendants, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 17th December. Mr. Blakeslee informs me we do not have the exhibit virtually, and if you will permit me, we will read it into the record, and later submit the exhibit.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Is this witness Neff still within the American Zone?\nMR. McMAHON:I think he is, Your Honor, so far as I know.\nTHE PRESIDENT:What opportunity does Dr. Bergold have to cross examine this witness?\nMR. McMAHON:Your Honor, I do not believe he has an opportunity here to cross examine him, except insofar as he may call him as his own witness, but this document of Walter Neff is before this court, and I was under the impression this Tribunal takes judicial notice of official procedure of the other Tribunal.\nTHE PRESIDENT:We take judicial notice when he did testify--\nMR. McMAHON:Yes, sir.\nTHE PRESIDENT:But, of course, some of us heard he testified, but that has not anything to do with the right of this defendant's counsel to impeach that testimony and to try to contradict it, or he to testify further under cross examination, but if no objection is raised on the part of the defendant, you may proceed.", "speakers": [ "MR. McMAHON", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 500, "page_number": "410", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "DR. BERGOLD:This is one of the documents about which I spoke this morning. I stated this morning that I should like to reserve to myself the right to cross examine these people. Of course, Neff is among them. I can not accept this document of his interrogation in that other court without my own examination.\nTHE PRESIDENT:This Tribunal is ready to extend to you, Dr. Bergold, the right to have this witness produced for cross examination if you wish.\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:Mr. McMahon, what objection do you have to producing this witness as your own witness so that we may get the testimony first handed?\nMR. McMAHON:Well, Your Honor, we wish to avoid that, if possible, because, as was stated in that other proceeding, Walter Neff is being hold under suspicion of being a war criminal, and we did not want to offer him as our witness because he might prove hostile to our case. For that reason, we wanted to read in his testimony, or, in the event that the Court deemed that he should be called, to have him called as a Court witness.\nTHE PRESIDENT:This witness was produced its a court witness in the first Tribunal?\nMR. McMAHON:He was, Your Honor.\nDR. BERGOLD:May it please the Tribunal, this point that is now under discussion will make special difficulties. The case against Milch is proceeding more rapidly than the case before Court Number 1. It could happen that all the evidence presented in the other Court would have to be repeated by me here in this Court, for my German colleagues upstairs are producing proofs which serve to strengthen my case. I should then have to repeat the same proofs here in this Court. That is the particular difficulty here. If the Prosecution says it can not call a witness because he is busy elsewhere, I must say that I must be confronted with this witness, if not in person, at least by way of affidavit. It is going to happen that I shall have to present the same evidence over again unless I am given a change to see the witness personally or to call him immediately.", "speakers": [ "MR. McMAHON", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "JUDGE MUSMANNO" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 501, "page_number": "411", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "THE PRESIDENT:Well, the Court has already indicated that it proposes to give you the chance to call this witness and to confront him, if you so desire.\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Is that sufficient?\nDR. BERGOLD:That is sufficient, yes.\nMR. McMAHON:Then, what is Your Honor's ruling on that point of Walter Neff? May I read his testimony at this time?\nTHE PRESIDENT:Yes.\nMR. McMAHON:Thank you. This is DocumentNOKW-452, which appears on page 63 of the English and page 87 of the German book.\nTHE PRESIDENT:I think it is page 61, Mr. McMahon.\nMR. McMAHON:NOKW-452?\nTHE PRESIDENT:Yes.\nMR. McMAHON:Thank you. This will be offered as Exhibit No. 101:\n\"Walter Neff, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:\n\"BY JUDGE SEBRING:\n\"Witness, the Tribunal is now about to put certain questions to you before you are sworn as a witness in this case.\n\"Q. Do you answer to the name of Walter Neff?\n\"A. Yes.\n\"Q. Where do you now live?\n\"A. In Dachau, Kufsteinerstrasse, No. 2.\n\"Q. Are you a German national?\n\"A. Yes.\n\"Q. Very well. Hold up your right hand and repeat after me the oath: I swear by God, the almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.\"\nTHE PRESIDENT:I think you can skip the next page, Mr. McMahon.\nMR. McMAHON:Thank you. I will start down on page 606 of the original. Do you have that, where the question was, \"Let us move on now to February of 1942.", "speakers": [ "MR. McMAHON", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 502, "page_number": "412", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "When did the high altitude experiments begin in Dachau?\"\nTHE PRESIDENT:That is the middle of page 63?\nMR. McMAHON:That is right. Your Honor, and I think page 87 of the German book.\n\"A. The first high altitude experiments were on 22 February 1942. The so-called low pressure cars had been brought in earlier and dismounted. The exact time when the cars came I don't know.\n\"Q. Why do you remember the date when first experiments were made in the low pressure chambers so well?\n\"A. The 22nd of February is my birthday and the tubercular patients made a celebration for me. On that date the experiments started and that is way I remember the date.\n\"Q. Do you remember that the low pressure chamber arrived in Dachau some days before 22 February 1942?\n\"A. Yes.\n\"Q. Now, I am going to have a book brought up to you, and if the Tribunal please, this is a book entitled 'Grundriss der Luftfahrtmedizin' by S. Ruff and S. Stutthof, edition of 1944. I am asking the witness to look at a picture on page 29 and tell the Tribunal if the low pressure chamber, which was in Dachau, was similar to the one shown in this picture.\n\"(The witness is shown the book).\n\"A. Yes.\n\"Q. Mayi t please the Tribunal, I do not care to offer the book in evidence. However, I believe you might like to look at the picture and get some idea of the chamber, so that I am asking that it be passed up.\n\"(The book is shown to the Tribunal.)\n\"Q. Witness, was this a moveable low pressure chamber?\n\"A. Yes.\n\"Q. Now, who brought the chamber down to Dachau? Do you know?\n\"A. It was brought into the camp by a coal truck, and Dr. Romberg came with it, and he gave the orders for the assembling and the current.", "speakers": [ "MR. McMAHON", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 503, "page_number": "413", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "\"Q. Witness, do you know Romberg?\n\"A. Yes.\n\"Q. Do you see him in the defendants' box?\n\"A. Yes.\"\nAnd then the following I think we can skip and go down to page 611 of the original, page 66, of the English book. It should be about page 90, I think, of the German book.\n\"Q. Now, let's go back to the high altitude experiments. Will you tell the Tribunal who worked on these experiments?\n\"A. The experiments were conducted by Dr. Rascher and Dr. Romberg. Ten prisoners were selected and were taken up to the station as permanent experimental subject; and they were told that nothing would happen to them. In the beginning, the first three weeks, the experiments went off without incident. One day, however, Rascher told me that the next day he was going to make a serious experiment and that he would need sixteen Russians who had been condemned to death, and he received these Russians. Then I told Rasher that I would not help, and I actually got Rascher to send me away to the tubercular ward. On that day I know for certain that Rascher's SS-M Endres or other SS-Men conducted these experiments. Dr. Romberg was not there that day. The SS Man Endres took the Russian prisoners of war to Rascher, and in the evening the parties were taken out. On the next day when I returned to the station, Endres was already there, and he said that two more, two Jews, would be killed. I am quoting what he said. I left the station again, but watched to see who would be taken for the experiments. I saw the first one getting into the car. I could only see his profile. It seemed familiar to me. I know that man worked in the hospital as a tailor. I tried to find out if he was really that man. I went to the place where he worked, and I was told that Endres had just taken the man away. The first person that I informed was Dr. Romberg, whom I met in the corridor. I told Romberg that this was not a person who had been condemned to death, and this was a clear case of murder on the responsibility of Endres. Romberg went with me to see Rascher to clear the matter up, but it was discovered that Endres had put this man in the experimental car because he had refused to make a civilian suit for the SS men.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 504, "page_number": "414", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "Rascher sent the man back; Endres went with him and remarked, 'Well, then, you will get an injection today.' I must say that Rascher interfered once more and put the man in safety into the bunker. In the meantime, Endres had brought a second man up, a Czech, whom I knew very well Again it was Romberg together with me who talked to Rascher to stop this experiment or inquire why a man like Endres was simply talking people who had never been condemned to death. Rascher went to the camp commandant, Pirkowsky, who personally came to the station, and Endres was transferred to Lublin immediately.\"\nAnd now I come to this subject.\nSkipping a question and answer:\n\"Q. Now, witness, before the recess, you had been telling the Tribunal about the high altitude experiments which you stated began on February 22, 1942, and you had related how early in March Rascher had experimented upon some fifteen Russians who were killed, and you stated that neither you nor the defendant Romberg were present on that occasion, and you then had gone on to relate the introduction when the SS man in Dachau named Endres had brought in the tailor at the camp and wanted him to be experimented upon and how you recognized the tailor and interceded with Romberg and had this man returned.\n\"Now, before you continue with your story, I would like to put some specific questions to you. It is true, is it not, that concentration camp inmates wore experimented on during these high-altitude test experiments?\n\"A. Yes.\n\"Q. About how many concentration camp inmates were subjected to these high-altitude experiments?\n\"A. There were 180 to 200 inmates who were subjected to the highaltitude experiments.\n\"Q. Now, when, to the best of your recollection, did the high altitude experiments end?\n\"A. The incident of the idea-- I am afraid I didn't quite get your question. Will you repeat it?", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 505, "page_number": "415", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "\"Q. I am asking you, witness, when the high altitude experiments ended: that is, when they were completed.\n\"A. During the course of June -- maybe the beginning of July, the low-pressure chambers were transported away. I don't recollect the exact date however..\n\"Q. And you state that between February 22, 1942 and the end of June, or the beginning of July 1942, approximately 180 to 200 concentration camp inmates were experimented on?\n\"A. Yes.\n\"Q. Now, what nationalities were experimental subjects?\n\"A. I don't know, but I shouldn't think so. I shouldn't think that they made great efforts to get volunteers.\n\"Q. Now, other than these approximately ten persons who you state presented themselves as volunteers, were all the rest of the experimental subjects simply picked out and brought in and experimented on?\n\"A. Yes.\n\"Q. Were any of these prisoners, experimented upon, released from the concentration camp because they underwent the experiments?\n\"A. There is only one man who was released after the high-altitude experiments.\n\"Q. And who was that?\n\"A. An inmate with the name of Zopota(?).\"\nNow, on page 618 of the original, the question beginning, \"Now, witness were any Jews experimented on in these high-altitude experiments?\n\"A. Yes.\n\"Q. Now, tell the Tribunal approximately how many prisoners were killed during the course of the high altitude experiments.\n\"A. During the high altitude experiments seventy to eighty persons were killed.\n\"Q. Did they experiment on prisoners other than those condemned to death?", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 506, "page_number": "416", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "A.Yes.\nQ.Were any of those prisoners who had not been condemned to death killed during tho course of the high attitude experiments?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 507, "page_number": "417", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "\"A. Yes.\n\"Q. Do you have any idea of how many may have been killed?\n\"A. There could have been approximately forty persons.\n\"Q. That is, forty persons were killed who had not been condemned to death out of a total of seventy, did you say?\n\"A. Yes.\n\"Q. Now, were some of those killed political prisoners?\n\"A. Yes.\n\"Q. Is there any way of tolling whether or not a prisoner had been condemned to death; that is, when the experimental subject arrived in the pressure chamber, was there any way to know whether he had been condemned to death?\n\"A. Once the experimental subject came from the Bunker, that is, as soon as the SS took them out, we could always tell they were prisoners who had been condemned to death. When the inmates were sent by the camp leader, and were brought there by him, then, we could also tell that they were persons who came from the camp and that those were not persons who had been condemned to death.\"\nNow, at the bottom of the page the question:\n\"Now, did they perform autopsies on any of those bodies, the bodies of the persons who were killed during the high-altitude experiments?\n\"A. I do not understand your expression, autopsies.\n\"Q. By autopsies, I mean, did they dissect the bodies of the persons who were killed in the high altitude experiments?\n\"A. During the, experiments, one autopsy was performed, and that was at ten thousand meters; otherwise, the largest number of the experimental subjects who died were autopsied in the morgue.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 508, "page_number": "", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "\"Q. Now, you say they actually performed the autopsy in the low pressure chamber at ten thousand meters?\n\"A. Yes.\n417(a) \"Q. Why was that done?", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 509, "page_number": "418", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "\"A. I am too little of an expert in order to express myself properly. I only know that it was said that gas or contain air in the brain will result at high altitudes, and they wanted to determine how the prisoner would react in this high altitude.\nQ.Did Romberg assist in this particular autopsy in tho low pressure chamber?\n\"A. Yes.\n\"Q. Was this man deliberately killed in the low pressure chamber?\n\"A. Yes.\n\"Q. Do you mean to state that he was killed because they wanted to see what effect those particular pressures had on his body; that is, how long they had to continue the pressure until he died?\n\"A. Yes.\n\"Q. Did they at times perform autopsies or dissections under water?\n\"A. Yes.\n\"Q. You do not remember that they performed dissections under water? You don't remember that?\n\"A. I am sure that was not done in Dachau, and it really would have been impossible considering the size of the experimental room.\n\"Q. Do you remember any cases of dissection where the heart continued beating after tho breast had been opened?\n\"A. Yes. During one autopsy it was found after the breast had been opened and oven after the heart had been opened that the heart was still beating. I knew that exactly because I brought the EKG apparatus into the morgue; and I then recorded this beating heart on the EKG.", "speakers": [ "Q." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 510, "page_number": "", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "This experiment caused many cases of death because many more experiments were made in order to see how long the 418(a) heart of a man could beat who was thus autopsied.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 511, "page_number": "419", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "I then had the task of carrying the rolls of the EKG apparatus from the dark room to the window of the morgue.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 512, "page_number": "420", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "And coming down now to the question:\n\"Now, you have stated that there were certain volunteers for these high altitude experiments; and you have also stated that the first experiments were carried out on ten subjects. Were any of those first ten subjects volunteers?\n\"A. The first ten subjects were not volunteers; and they did not remain at the station only at the beginning but they stayed there during the entire period, that is, for the entire period that the low pressure chamber was there. Every one of these experimental subjects experienced twenty to thirty experiments.\n\"Now, witness, based upon what you observed and heard at Dachau, can you say that these experiments were conducted for the benefit of the Luftwaffe?\n\"A. Yes.\n\"Q. Do you remember seeing any officers of the Luftwaffe visit the experimental station in Dachau?\n\"A. Certainly. Very frequently high officers of the Luftwaffe, of the SS, and of the Wehrmacht visited the experimental station. However, I can only remember the names of the leading SS men who were there; and I know no name of any Luftwaffe officer who visited the experimental station.\nAnd now coming to the question about seven questions on:\n\"Q. Now, witness, did you ever hear the name of Erhardt Milch mentioned in connection with these high altitude experiments?\n\"A. Yes.\n\"Q. On what occasion?\n\"A. I had the impression that Romberg tried intentionally to withdraw from these experiments. He was ill on numerous occasions; and he had often left on trips. Of course, the negative thing in that connection was that Rascher had to work all the more. I spoke to Romberg himself and I asked him how long the low pressures should remain; and he said that Milch was going to use them, and he would try to do everything to send them away as quickly as possible. That happened approximately the middle or the end of May. I remember that because this meant the time for me to try to make this chamber harmless.\"", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 513, "page_number": "421", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "And now coming down about ten more questions on:\n\"Q. Now, I understand you to say that the experiments continued after the chamber had been fixed again?\n\"A. Yes.\n\"Q. How much longer did they last?\n\"A. I'm sure it lasted another three weeks.\n\"Q. Were experimental subjects killed during the last three weeks?\n\"A. Yes. Rascher killed five persons on the last day. Now on page 626 of the original copy, the question beginning:\n\"Q. All right. Let's move on to the freezing *** experiments. When did tho freezing experiments start?\n\"A. During August or at the end of July the first freezing experiments started. They were conducted by Prof. Holzloehner, Dr. Finke and Dr. Rascher. The freezing experiments can be divided into two separate departments. One a series of Holzloehner-Finke which was later excluded and then a series where Dr. Rascher made these experiments himself.\n\"Q. All right; suppose you describe the experimental basin.\n\"A. The experimental basin was built of wood. It was two meters long and two meters high. It was about 50 centimeters above the floor and it was in Block No. 5. There were found in tho experimental chamber and basin many lighting instruments and other apparatus which were used in order to carry out measurements.\n\"Q. Now, you have stated that you can divide the freezing experiments into two group's; one where Holz loehner and Finke were working with Rascher, and then the period after Holzloehner and Finke had left?", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 514, "page_number": "", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "\"A. Yes.\n\"Q. Now, will you tell the Tribunal approximately how many persons were used over the whole period? That is, including both groups that you have mentioned.\n\"A. 280 to 300 experimental subjects were used for these freezing experiments. There were really 360 to 400 experiments that were conducted since many experimental subjects experienced more than one such experiment. Sometimes even 3.\n421(a) \"Q. Now, out of the total of 280 or 300 prisoners used approximately how many of them died?", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 515, "page_number": "422", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "\"A. As a result of these freezing experiments approximately 80 to 90 subjects died.\n\"Q. Now, hew many experimental subjects do you remember that they used in the Holzloehner-Finke-Rascher experiments?\n\"A. During that period of time approximately 50 to 60 subjects were used for experimental purposes.\n\"Q. Did any of these experimental subjects die?\n\"A. Yes. During that period of time there were about 15, maybe even 18 cases of death.\n\"Q. When was the experimental series concluded?\n\"A. It was concluded in the month of October. I think it was at the end of October. At that time Holzloehner and Finke discontinued these experiments giving the reason that they had accomplished their purpose and that it was useless to carry out further experiments of that kind.\n\"Q. And then Rascher continued experiments on his own?\n\"A. Yes. Then Rascher conducted these experiments giving the reasons that he had to build a scientific basis for them and he prepared a lecture for University Marburg on that subject.\"\nOn, skipping, a question:\n\"Q. Now, were the experimental subjects for the freezing experiments selected in the same way as for the high-altitude experiments?\n\"A. No. Here Rascher turned to the camp administration and told them that he needed so and so many experimental subjects. Then the political department of the camp selected ten inmates by name. That list was sent to the Camp Commander and was signed by the Camp Commander and they were then sent to Rascher's station and the subjects on that list had to be experimented on. The original list I could use as evidence material in the first Dachau trial as evidence.\n\"Q. Now do I understand then that the experimental subjects used in this freezing experiments were political prisoners?", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 516, "page_number": "423", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "\"A. There were certainly a number of political prisoners and also a number of foreigners, but certainty there were also prisoners of war and also inmates who had been condemned to death.\n\"Q. These persons were not volunteers were they?\n\"A. No.\n\"Q. Now suppose you describe to the Tribunal exactly how these freezing experiments were carried out, that is what tests they made, how they measured the temperature and how the temperature of the water was lowered in the basin and so forth?", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 517, "page_number": "424", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "\"A. These basins were filled with water and ice was added until the water measured three degrees, and the experimental subjects were either dressed in a flying suit or were placed into the ice water in a naked state. During the period when Holzloehner and Finke were active most experiments were conducted under narcotics while during the Rascher period he had always rejected narcotics, because he maintained that you could not find the exact condition of the blood, and that you would exclude the will power of the experimental subject if he was under anesthetic. Now whenever the experimental subjects were conscious it took sometime until so-called freezing narcosis set in. The temperature was measured rectally and through the stomach through the Galvanometer apparatus. The sinking down of the temperature until 32 degrees was a terrible plight for the experimental subject. At 32 degrees the experimental subject lost consciousness. These persons were frozen down to 25 degrees body temperature, and now in order to enable you to understand this problem, I should like to tell you something about the Holzloehner and Finke period. During the period when Holzloehner and Finke were active, no experimental subject was actually killed in the water. The death cases only occurred at that time during the revival or rather during the re-warning. The temperature was further cooled down which caused the heart failure, and this also occurred because of the flight therapy so that in contrast to the low pressure chamber experiments, it has to be said here that the death victims in the Finke-Holzloehner period were not in the basin having their full consciousness, while in the air pressure chamber each death case cannot be considered as an accident, but as wilfull murder. However, it was different when Rascher personally took over these experiments.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 518, "page_number": "", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "At that time a large number of the persons involved were kept in the water for so long a time until they were dead.\"\nAnd two questions further on:\n424(a) \"Q. Do you recall the occasion when two Russian officers were experimented upon in the freezing experiments?", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 519, "page_number": "425", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "\"A. Yes.\n\"Q. Will you relate that incident to the Tribunal?\n\"A. Yes. It was the worst experiment which was over carried out. From the bunker two Russian, officers were carried out. We were forbidden to speak to them. They arrived in the afternoon at approximately 4 o'clock. Rascher had them undressed and they had to go into the basin in a naked state. Hour after hour passed and when usually after a short time, 60 minutes, the freezing would have set in, these two Russians were still conscious even after two hours. All of our appeals to Rascher asking him to give them an injection was without purpose. Approximately in the third hour one Russian said to the other: 'Comrade, tell that officer that he may shoot us.' Then the other one replied, 'Don't expect any mercy from this Fascist dog.' Then both shock hands and they said, 'Goodbye, Comrade.' And how can one imagine that we inmates also had to be witnesses of such a death and could do nothing against it, then you can really estimate how terrible it is to be condemned to work in such an experimental station. After these words, which were translated to the Russians by a young Polo in a somewhat different form, Rascher went back into his office. The young Pole immediately tried to give them an anesthetic with chloroform, but Rascher returned immediately. He threatened us with a pistol, and he said, 'Don't dare interfere and approach these victims.' The experiment lasted at least five hours until death set in.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 520, "page_number": "", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "Both corpses were sent to Munich for autopsy in the Schwabisches Hospital there.\n\"Q. Witness, how long did it normally take to kill a person in these freezing experiments?\n\"A. The length of the experiment varied, according to the individual case. It always varied considering the fact whether 425(a) the subject was clothed or unclothed.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 521, "page_number": "426", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "If his physical construction was weak and if, in addition to that, he was naked, death often set in already after 80 minutes. But there were a number of cases where the experimental subject lived up to three hours, and remained that way in the water until finally death set in.\"\nAt this time there was a recess until the next day.\nTHE PRESIDENT:At this time we will recess for fifteen minutes.\nA recess was taken.", "speakers": [ "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 522, "page_number": "427", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "THE MARSHAL:The persons in the court room will rise. The Tribunal is again in session.\nMR. DENNY:Your Honors, I have a few more excerpts that I would like to read into the record, from the testimony of Walter Neff, given on the 18th of December, 1946, before the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America against Earl Brandt, et al, defendants, sitting in Nuernberg, Germany.\nThis is entitled:NOKW-450, and I will begin reading on page 57 of the English Document Book and on page 82 of the German Document Book.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Will you give this a central exhibit number?\nMR. DENNY:No, Your Honor. I would like to give this just one exhibit number for the two documents so far presented.\nTHE PRESIDENT: 101?\nMR.DENNY: 101. (Reading) Beginning with the question:\n\"Q Now, witness, didn't Rascher also make reports to the Luftgau No. 7 in Dachau?\nAIn Dachau toAir District No. 7 and the Sanitary Department of No. 7 final reports. These were reports which were handled as top secret and they were sent to Reichsfuehrer SS, Sievers, and to the Sanitary Department of the Air District.\nQTell the Tribunal, witness, what this Luftgau No. 7 in Munich was.\nAThat I cannot explain. I only know that the designation Luftgau Sanitaetsamt No. 7 existed, and that the offices were on Prinzregentenstrasse, and that Rascher was receiving instruction from there, too. To whom the reports were handed directly and to whom they were passed on is something I do not know.\nQBut you do know that Luftgau No. 7 was a medical installation of the Luftwaffe, isn't that so?\nAYes.\nQAnd was it not on the occasion of the delivery of one of these reports when you went with Rascher to Luftgau No. 7 and on that occasion that you saw the defendant Waltz?", "speakers": [ "MR.", "A", "THE PRESIDENT", "MR. DENNY", "Q", "THE MARSHAL" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 523, "page_number": "428", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "A.Whether it was on that occasion when a report was delivered or some other occasion, since Rascher visited Luftgau No. 7 quite frequently, is something I cannot recollect exactly. I don't want to state that it was just the day when a top secret matter was handed over.\nQ.Was Rascher well known in Luftgau No. 7 in Munich?\nA.Yes, because before Rascher was the head of the experimental station in Dachau he had an experimental station dealing with \"E\" measures at Schongau, also coming under Luftgau No. 7.\nQ.Now, witness, let's move along to the dry freezing experiments. When were they first conducted, do you know?\nA.According to my recollection, the air freezing experiments were carried out in January, February, and March, 1943. First of all, one experiment was made when the prisoner was placed on a stretcher at night and put outside the block. He was covered with a linen sheet but a bucket of cold water was poured over him hourly. That experimental subject remained there under these conditions until the morning and the temperature of that experimental subject was taken with a thermometer. Later Rascher said that it had been a mistake to cover the person with a linen cloth and pour water over him since that had produced wrong results as the air could not get at the body of the person and therefore, in the future experimental subjects were not allowed to be covered up any longer. The next experiment was a mass experiment when ten prisoners were also put outside naked at night. The temperature of one of then was measured with a galvanometer, the others with a thermometer. Rascher was present during approximately eighteen to twenty experiments of that type but I cannot remember exactly how many deaths occurred and if deaths occurred in connection with these experiments. I would like to say with certain reservations that approximately three deaths occurred during that period.\"", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 524, "page_number": "429", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "MR. DENNY:Now, going to the next page, to the question beginning:\n\"Q. Now, were these experimental subjects selected in the same manner as those for the wet freezing and high altitude experiments?\nA.Yes.\nQ.In other words, some of these experimental subjects were political prisoners, some were criminal prisoners and not all of them had been condemned to death; that correct?\nA.Of the experimental subjects subjected to air cooling experiments, none were people who were sentenced to death. They were prisoners of various nationalities. There were also German political prisoners and \"green\" prisoners.\nQ.And these prisoners had not volunteered? Had they?\nA.No.\nQ.Now, witness, tell us to the best of your ability, tell us how long Dr. Rascher was a member of the Medical Service of the Luftwaffe?\nA.I can only say that up until the end of 1943 Rascher appeared in the SS uniform. On the other hand, I know that as early as the beginning of these freezing experiments, they were carried out by the Ahnenerbe Institute and the finances of the Ahnenerbe Institute paid the expenses.\nQ.How do you know that they paid the expenses?\nA.I know that from the correspondence, which Rascher had with the Ahnenerbe Institute since the clerk working in the office was telling us currently about most important matters. He too, you know, was a prisoner.\nQ.But, Rascher did up until the end of 1943 wear the uniform of a Luftwaffe officer; is that correct?\nA.Yes.\nQ.So that all during the high altitude experiments, the freezing experiments in water and the air freezing experiments, Rascher was wearing the uniform of a Luftwaffe officer; is that right?\nA.Yes, he was a captain or staff medical officer in the Luftwaffe.\nMR. DENNY:That completes the reading of the testimony given at the trial, your Honor.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "MR. DENNY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 525, "page_number": "430", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "I would like now to offer in evidence an affidavit sworn to by the same Walter Neff. This will be part of the same exhibit No. 101, and is on page 53 of the English document book, and on page 78 of the German document book. This isNOKW-426Statement -- \"I, Walter Neff, swear, state and declare: That I was born on 22 February 1909, in Westheir in the vicinity of Augsburg (Germany); That I was seized by the Nazis in the year 1938 and brought to the concentration camp Dachau, because I had prevented an SS bomb-outrage (SS-Bombenattentat) on an Austrian police officer. On 1 February 1942 I was assigned as ward supervisor in Dr. Rascher's Experimentation department. I was charged with the duty of supervising the ten subjects for experiments, confined in this station, and was responsible for order and cleanliness. It was part of my duties to present a report to Dr. Rascher at the end of each month. At the conclusion of each report the number of casualties which occurred within the course of the month are given. Sixty to seventy involuntary subjects for experiments died as a result of the High Altitude Experiments (Hoehenversuche). Seventy to eighty were killed during the later freezing experiments. (Unterkuehlungsversuchen). In the middle of 1942 the cars with low pressure chambers were taken away.\"\nMR. McMAHON:It should be 'taken away' instead of 'received'.\n\"On this day, the beginning of July 1942, 5 persons were killed. The name of Fieldmarshal Milch was frequently mentioned in Dachau. Every time I asked Dr. Romberg how long the cares and the pressure chambers would remain in Dachau, he said, that Milch would attend to everything, he assured me that he had communicated with Milch personally and that the cars would remain in Dachau as long as he specified. I am certain that Milch knew Dr. Rascher. The low-pressure chamber was brought to Dachau and taken away again on the basis of orders for which Milch was responsible. I have read the above statement consisting of one page in the German language and declare that it is the complete truth according to the best of my knowledge and belief. I had an opportunity to make alterations and collections in the above statement. I made this statement voluntarily and without any promise of reward, and I was subjected to no force or threat whatsoever.", "speakers": [ "MR. McMAHON" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 526, "page_number": "431", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "Signed Walter Neff, at Nurnberg 23rd day of December, 1946.\"\nMR. McMAHON:The next document which the Prosecution wishes to introduce will be exhibit No. 102 and is Document No. 1581 PS, found on page 79 of the English document book, and 109 of the German copy. This document is a letter from Nini Rascher, Dr. Rascher's wife, which is dated 13 April 1942, written to Dr. Brandt. Mrs. Rascher asks permission to take colored pictures of autopsies since heretofore only black and white photos had been permitted. This letter demonstrates beyond a doubt that fatalities ensued frequently from the medical experiments. The letter reads as follows: \"Dear Dr. Brandt: My husband asks you to get him the permission, if possible of the Reichfuehrer to take immediate colored photos of his new preparations (Frischpruefarate) (of persons just dissected). As a rule only black -- white photographing is permitted in the camp. As he wants to evaluate the preparations later on, these photos would be very important for his work. May I ask you for a short early answer? This letter is forwarded by courier. With best regards and many thanks I remain with -- Heil Hitler, yours respectful Nini Rascher.\" This is Prosecution Exhibit No.102.\nWe now turn to Document No. 218, on page 80 of the English book and 110 of the German book, and is Prosecution's Exhibit No. 103. This is a letter from Rascher to Himmler, describing an experiment which resulted in the death of an experimental person named Wagner. The letter is dated 16 April 1942. The letter reads: \"Highly esteemed Reichsfuehrer: May I thank you for your letter of 13 April. I have been delighted with the great interest which you, highly esteemed Reichsfuehrer, are taking in the experiments and their results. I thank you for the inspirations you have given me in your letter.\n\"The experiment described in the report of 4 April was repeated 4 times each time with the same results. When Wagner, the last VP (experimental subject) had stopped breathing I let him come back to life by increasing pressure. Since the VPW was assigned for a terminal (\"Terminal\" meaning death-resulting in this case) experiment, since a repeated experiment held no prospect for new results, and since I had not been in possession of your letter at that time, I subsequently started another experiment through which VP Wagner did not live.", "speakers": [ "MR. McMAHON" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 527, "page_number": "432", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "Also in this case the results obtained by electrocardiographic registration (Herzstromabschreibung) were extraordinary.\n\"In accordance with your orders, I tried to contact Dr. Fahren Kamp immediately upon receipt of your letter, however, I could not speak to him since he is layed up with angina. In a few days I shall ask again if Dr. Fahren is available.\n\"Meanwhile, at times together with Dr. Romberg I carried out falling experiments from heights of from 16 to 20 kilometers. There, contrary to theoretical assumptions, it was proved that falling through space after jumping from an airplane in the stratosphere (Druckkabinenflugzeugpressure cabin plane) is quite possible, as after severe unconsciousness the VP regained complete consciousness in each case, at between 7 and 8 kilometers height when the parachute lever, installed in the chamber, was pulled.\n\"Within the next few days I shall report at length on the experiments as well as on the above mentioned VP Wagner.\n\"I also have a request to make: may I take pictures of the various dissection preparations in the dissecting room of the concentration camp, to make a record of the strange formations of air embolism. In this connection, my wife has already written to SS Sturmbannfuehrer Dr. Brandt.\n\"Highly esteemed Reichsfuehrer, allow me to close by assuring you that your active interest in these experiments has a tremendous influence on one's working capacity and initiative. I am with devoted greetings and Heil Hitler, yours gratefully devoted, signed Rascher.\"\nWe now turn to Document No. 1613 PS, which will be Prosecution's Exhibit No. 104, and which appears on page 82 of the English and 117 of the German document books. This is a letter from Rascher to Himmler, dated 16 October 1942, which accompanies the final report on freezing experiments at Dachau. It reads as follows: Highly esteemed Reichsfuehrer: -- \"Permit me to submit the attached final report on the super-cooling experiments performed at Dachau.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 528, "page_number": "", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "432-a This report does not contain the course and results of a series of experiments with drugs, as well as experiments with animal body heat (animalisher-Waerme) which are now being conducted.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 529, "page_number": "433", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "Likewise this report does not contain the microscopic pathological examinations of the brain tissues of the deceased; I was surprised at the extraordinary microscopic findings in this field, I will carry out experiments with the start of the conference in which the effect of cooling will be discussed and I hope to be able to present further results by that time. My two coworkers left Dachau about 8 days ago. In the hope that you, highly esteemed Reichsfuehrer, will be able to spare a quarter of an hour to listen to an oral report, I remain, with the most obedient regards and, Hell Hitler. Yours respectfully, Signed S. Rascher.\"\nThis completes the Document Book 5-A, your Honors, and we will now turn to Book 5-B, Document No. 428, and which will be introduced as Prosecution's Exhibit No. 105. This is a final report on freezing experiments, and the thing is on page 84 of the English and on the 4th page of the German document book. It is signed by Professor Hoslinger, Rascher, Fink, and is a report on experiments on human beings. I shall read the under the table contents Roman No. I, problems of the experiment. It is on page 85 of the English and I think page 4 of the German book. It reads: \"Up to the present time there has been no basis for the treatment of shipwrecked persons who have been exposed for long periods of time to low water temperatures. These uncertainties extended to the possible physical and pharmacologial methods of attack. It was not clear, for example, whether those who had been rescued should be warmed quickly or slowly. According to the current instructions for treating frozen people, a slow warming up seemed to be indicated.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 530, "page_number": "", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "Certain theoretical considerations could be adduced for a slow warming. Well-founded suggestions were missing for a promising medicinal therapy.\n\"All these uncertainties rested in the last analysis upon the absence of well-founded concepts concerning the cause of death by cold in human beings. In the meantime, in order to clarify this question, a series of animal experiments were started. And, indeed, these officials who wished to make definite suggestions.\n433a to the doctors in the sea rescue service had to assume a great deal of responsibility if it came to a question of convincing and consistent results in these animal experiments.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 531, "page_number": "434", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "At this particular point it is especially difficult to carry the findings in animals over into the human field. In the warm-blooded, one finds a varied degree of development in the heat-regulating mechanism. Besides this, the processes in the skin of the pelted animals cannot be carried over to man.\"\nAnd now I will read under Roman Numeral VI, which is on page 104 of the English Document, and on page 19 of the German Book: \"Death after cooling in water. Practical and Theoretical considerations. Reports to the effect that those who have been rescued at sea are imperilled for a considerable time after rescue have aroused special attention. It has been reported especially that sudden cases of death occurred as much as twenty minutes to ninety minutes after rescue, and that in mass catastrophes these sudden deaths could amount to mass-dying (rescue collapse). These observations have set off far-reaching discussions. Bleeding in the re-warming periphery, breakdowns of and humoral correlations and similar ideas have been brought up.\n\"In contrast to this our experiments give a relatively simple explanation of cold-death under these conditions. With the exception of a single case, a total irregularity of the heart chamber could be definitely demonstrated in all cases of cooling under 30° C (86° F), (50 experiments) when the restal temperature reached 29°C (84°F), and usually already at a cooling of 31°C, (88°F). The exception was an experiment on an intoxicated person, which is to be gone into more fully below (Sed Section VII).", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 532, "page_number": "", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "\"Furthermore a hearth-death was established clinically in all 434a cases of death observed by us.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 533, "page_number": "435", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "In two cases breathing cased simultaneously with the heart activity. These were cases in which it was specially noted that the neck and the back of the head lay deep in the water. In all remaining cases breathing outlasted the clinical chamber-cessation by as much as twenty minutes. In part this was \"normal, much decelerated breathing\", in part an angonal form of gasping. As already referred to, a Verhefflutter could be demonstrated cardiographically during the irregularity.\n\"In cases in which a special cooling of neck and back of the head had existed before death, the autopsy showed a marked brain edema, a tight filling of the general brain cavity (Hirngefaesse), blood in the spinal fluid as well as blood in the Michaelisrhomboid (Tautengrube).\"\nAnd now I should like to read from a figure which appears at the end of this experiment report, which is figure 13. I think that is on page 129 of the English document and it should be original page 571 of the German. This is just a graph and here we have the annotations in regard to deaths of several persons as a result of these freezing experiments, figure 13, the behavior of the heart action under the influence of medication. This is still Document No-428.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 534, "page_number": "", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "Subject Water Occurrence of Irregularity Temperature after at Experimental Body Temperature. Time Therapy mg.\nstrop at minute Pulse becomes regular Total Duration after after of Irregularity Experimental Administering time strophanthine Remarks; B.L. 4cc Death in the 70th minute, ten coranim minutes after removal from water L.H. intracardial Death (heart stopped) five minutes after administering strophanthine, ten minutes after removal from water.\nV.E. heart, massage Death (heart stopped in the sixty-sixth coramin cardiazel artifical minute during removal from water. respiration S.M. artificial res- Death (heart stopped) in the eighty-seventh piration caria- minute, seven minutes after removal from zol water.\nL.O. Death (heart stopped) in the sixty-fifth minute eight minutes after removal from water.\"\nMR. MC MAHON:That completes the reference toNO 428.\n435 A We would now like to offer in evidence Document No.NOKW 264, which will be Exhibit No. 106 and is on page 131 of the English, and 119 of the German Document Book.", "speakers": [ "MR. MC MAHON" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 535, "page_number": "436", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "The German Document Book is 5-C. Document Book 5-C, page 119 of that book. This document isNOKW-264and is the affidavit of SS standertenfuehrer Wolfram Sievers, dated 19 November 1946. Sievers was manager of the Ahnenerbe Society, a research and instruction group within the SS. Sievers states that a Fuehrer order at the beginning of the war prohibited the further use of Wehrmacht volunteers for high-altitude experiments. The Court will please note that Sievers witnessed the death of experimental persons and refers to the chain of command and the correspondence which Wolff had with Milch. The affidavit reads:\n\"I, Wolfram Sievers, swear, state and declare:\n\"Since 1 July 1935 I was managing director of the Research and Teaching association, \"Das Ahnenerbe.\" and I was admitted to membership of the SS late in 1935 where the last rank I held was that of SSStandartenfuehrer.\n\"The facts mentioned below are known to me as a result of my activity in the Ahnenerbe Society and in the SS. In accordance with a Fuehrer order it was prohibited to use volunteers of the Wehrmacht for high altitude experiments. The Luftwaffe sent a low pressure chamber to the concentration camp Dachau for the performance of the high altitude experiments.\n\"I witnessed a freezing experiment performed on an inmate of the concentration camp. He was a criminal who had been sentenced to death. Professor Dr. Hirth and Dr. Rascher were present at the experiment. The experiment itself was conducted by Dr. Rascher. Thermometers were put on the prisoner and he had to don a flyer's suit. He was given an Evipan injection, whereupon he became unconscious and was immersed into icecooled water. In the course of this experiment the prisoner died and immediately after his death an autopsy was performed by Prof. Dr. Hirth.\n\"Dr. Rascher was a captain in the Medical Corps or the Luftwaffe until the end of 1943. He was subordinate to the Chief of the Medical Inspectorate Dr. Hippke. Dr. Hippke was, as far as I know, directly under the orders of Fieldmarshal General Milch, the Inspector General of the Luftwaffe.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 536, "page_number": "437", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "\"Milch must have known about the experiments of Dr. Rascher. This is evident from the correspondence between Milch and Wolff, in which the latter, in his capacity as Chief of the Personal Staff of Himmler, writes and reports on this matter. The complete information on the details, according to my opinion, belongs within the scope of the Medical Inspectorate of the Luftwaffe, that is, of Dr. Hippke's office. Oberguppenfuehrer Wolff was called \"Woelfchen\" meaning \"little wolf\" by his acquaintances and addressed accordingly.\"\nThis affidavit is signed by Wolfram Sievers. Prosecution now offers in evidence DocumentNOKW 391, which will be Exhibit No. 107, and is at page 133 of the English and 121 of the German Document Book. This is an interrogation taken from Dr. Romberg, dated 29 October 1946. Dr. Romberg, dated 29 October 1946. Dr. Romberg reveals somewhat reluctantly that these experiments were going beyond previously known limits and that cases of death were to be expected and it was for this reason that experimental prisoners were used instead of German volunteers as had been the case heretofore. Beginning about three-fourths of the way down the page with the question:\n\"Q In fact the question comes up how is it that these high altitude experiments were carried out on KZ, meaning concentration camp inmates. For I know, for instance, that before the war the ZVL (German Air Transport League) had made some tests in high altitude experiments, and at that time volunteers put themselves at the disposal of the physicians.\n\"A Yes, we always made them.\n\"Q All of a sudden an end is put to it and prisoners of concentration camps are used. So I have to presume that there was a possibility of deathly issue and that therefore prisoners were used?\n\"A It was something like this: we had made experiments on ourselves not only in our own but also in other institutes and in doing so had dealt with altitude up to 17,000 meters and now a physical limit had proved to be near 17,800 meters, the boiling point of the blood, so that it was possible that in this case it could come to a sudden boiling up of the blood and that consequently cases of death had to be expected.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 537, "page_number": "438", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "\"Q And for that reason prisoners of concentration camps were used?\n\"A After preparation by partial experiments in which the blood did not reach the boiling point, the actual experiments were tackled. It was a question of whether or not something would happen. The results of the partial experiments gave no reason to anticipate that something would happen; on the other hand, however, it w&a not excluded.\"\nThen reading from page 34 of the original, still on the same page in the English document Book:\n\"Q And no deaths occurred with you, only with Rascher and Rascher never informed you and told you that there were deaths during his high altitude experiments? I remind you of your oath.\n\"A Yes, I know of individual cases. I said to Rascher that I did not want to have anything to do with this affair and that I was protesting against it.\n\"Q To whom?\n\"A To Rascher.\n\"Q When approximately did you first mention to Rascher that you had had enough of these experiments?\n\"A I can't tell exactly.\n\"Q You were in Dachau for 8 weeks, 2 months, about February to April?\n\"A No, it was later; March to May.\n\"Q And when, approximately, did you get the impression that things were happening there which you could not reconcile with your principle and about when did you report about it to Ruff?\n\"A That must have been the end of April -- beginning of May.\nThe next document,NOKW-126, will not be offered in evidence but we will pass toNOKW-140which will be Prosecution Exhibit No.108and is on page 139 of the English and 127 of the German copy. This is an affidavit signed by Br. Siegfried Ruff who was in charge of the Medical Section of the DVL.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 538, "page_number": "439", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "Dr. Romberg was sent by Dr. Ruff to Dachau to work on the experiments. He refers to the chain of command for these experiments naming Milch, Hippke, Ruff and Romberg in that order; he also states that Dr. Hippke and defendant Milch were informed of the results of these tests. The affidavit reads:\n\"I, Siegfried Ruff, upon oath, depose arid say:\n\"During the war I acted as manager of the Air Medical Department of the German Research Institute for Aviation DVL in Berlin Adlershof.\n\"I have personal knowledge of all the facts related here.\n\"The entire Air Medical Research was in charge of General Dr. Erich Hippke in his capacity as Chief of Medical affairs until 1944 and then Professor Schroeder. As Chief of the Medical Service General Hippke was directly subordinate to Fieldmarshal Milch. As far as the altitude experiments are concerned which were carried out in 1942 on concentration camp inmates in Dachau. I have sent Dr. Hans Romberg as expert to Dachau to conduct the experiments. Dr. Romberg was sent to Dachau in agreement with General Hippke. The pressure chamber which was used for these tests in Dachau was sent to Dachau by the Luftwaffe. This was done upon orders by the Luftwaffe Medical Service and the pressure chamber was used in Dachau upon my instigation. General Dr. Hippke had full knowledge of the fact that altitude experiments were carried on in Dachau on living persons and that those persons were concentration camp inmates. To my knowledge, Fieldmarshal Milch was kept informed on these tests either by General Hippke or by the SS. The order of command for these tests was Milch, Hippke, Ruff and Romberg. The freezing experiments performed in 1942 were carried out in Dachau by Dr. Rascher without the assistance of Dr. Romberg and there can be no doubt that Dr. Hippke and Fieldmarshal Milch were informed of the results of these tests.\"\nThis affidavit is signed on the 25th of October 1946. The next document to be offered in evidence will beNO-222, which will be Prosecution Exhibit No. 109 and is on page 141 of the English Document Book and page 129 of the German Document Book. This is a letter from Rudolf Brandt to Sievers saying that Himmler had recently sent an experimental report to Milch.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 539, "page_number": "440", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "This document indicates that Milch receiving reports on the experiments. The letter reads:\n\"To SS Obersturmbannfuehrer Sievers \"Dear Comrade Sievers:\n\"SS Untersturmfuehrer Dr. Rascher's supposition is not correct. The letter of the Reichsfuehrer SS by which he transmitted the report to General Fieldmarshal Milch was only signed and sent off a few days ago. I assume that the General Fieldmarshal will of himself give the necessary orders and then confine himself to sending a brief answer to the Reichsfuehrer SS.\n\"I enclose a copy of the Reichsfuehrer SS's letter dated 25 August 1942 for your information.\n\"Hearty Greetings and Heil Hitler (signed) R. Br.\" Rudolf Brandt The next document to be offered in evidence isNO-226, which will be Prosecution Exhibit No.110. This is on page 142 of the English and 130 of the German Document Book.\nThis is a letter from Sievers to Brandt dated 21 October 1942 discussing a revival of the high altitude experiments. The letter reads:\n\"To the Reichsfuehrer SS, \"Personal Staff, \"c/o SS Obersturmbannfuehrer Dr. Brandt \"Subject:\nHigh altitude flying experiments by Dr. Rascher in Dachau.\n\"Dear Comrade Brandt:\n\"In connection with the report made in field headquarters concerning the high altitude flight experiments, a report was to be made to Fieldmarshal Milch too. The date of 11 September was chosen. As you will see from the attached file note of Dr. Romberg, this report has not been made, and indeed the whole thing has gone wrong, so to say. At any rate, the attitude of the gentlemen of the Medical Inspectorate of the Luftwaffe has altered considerably since that date. What would you think if I were to write a letter to the Medical Inspector Generaloberstabsarzt Dr. Hippke, that Rascher was only authorized to report in person to Fieldmarshal Milch, and that, accordingly, he -- as well as Dr. Romberg -- had but obeyed an order of the Reichsfuehrer, when they did not make a report on September 11th.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 540, "page_number": "441", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "Perhaps this would persuade the highly insulted gentlemen to fo-operate again. The deep-freezing experiments are terminated now, so that the continuation of the high altitude flying experiments, as desired by the Reichsfuehrer SS can now begin. In this connection, we need once more the low pressure chamber, but this time with differential pumps, as otherwise large-scale altitude tests cannot be carried out. The new experiments will also serve to conclude the habilitation thesis of Rascher. The putting at our disposal of the low pressure chamber, however, will be possible then only, if the Reichsfuehrer SS writes in person to Fieldmarshal Milch concerning this. I include the draft of such a letter. Yours.\"\nThe draft of this letter on the next page reads as follows:\n\"To Fieldmarshal, Secretary of State Milch \"Subject:\nLow pressure chamber for high altitude flying experiments.\n\"In connection with the report I had submitted to me here by Stabsarzt Dr. Rascher and Dr. Romberg concerning the carrying-out of high altitude flying experiments, I had desired that a similar report be submitted to you too. Although it has not been possible for you to participate in the conference of 11th September 1942 and to convince yourself of the results, up to now, of the experiments, I beg you once more today, to put at our disposal the low pressure chamber, through the Aviation Experimental Institute. As the experiments are to be extended to greater altitudes, this time differential pumps would also have to be supplied.\n\"As I take a great interest in the continuation of the altitude flight experiments suspended in June last, and as I believe that we can still achieve very considerable results, I would be grateful to you if you would have the low pressure chamber and the differential pumps brought to Dachau very soon, and if, at the same time, Dr. Romberg were made available again for the continuation of the experiments.\"", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 541, "page_number": "442", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "Note that Sievers states the low pressure chamber will be obtained again only if Himmler writes to Milch. This demonstrates how dependent the experimentors were on Milch. Here also Dr. Ruff of the DVL was subject to the orders of Milch, thereby affirming Milch's authority over the DVL. Now the prosecution wished to introduce document 1617-PS which will be Prosecution Exhibit No.111and is on page 145 of the English document Book and on page 133 of the German Document Book. This is a personal letter from Himmler to Milch and dated November 1942. The letter reads:\n\"Dear Comrade Milch:\n\"You will recall that through General Wolff I particularly recommended to you for your consideration the work of a certain SS Fuehrer, Dr. Rascher, who is a physician of the air force on leave.\n\"These researches which deal with the behavior of the human organism at great heights, as well as with manifestations caused by prolonged cooling of the human body in cold water, and similar problems which are of vital importance to the air force in particular, can be performed by us with particular efficiency because I personally assumed the responsibility for supplying asocial individuals and criminals who deserve only to die from concentration camps for these experiments.\n\"Unfortunately you had no time recently when Dr. Rascher wanted to report on the experiments at the Ministry for Aviation. I had put great hopes in that report, because I believed that in this way the difficulties, based mainly on religious objections, which oppose Dr. Rascher's experiments -- or which I assumed responsibility -- could be eliminated.\n\"The difficulties are still the same now as before. In these \"Christian medical circles\" the standpoint is being taken that it goes without saying that a young German aviator should be allowed to risk his life but that the life of a criminal -- who is not drafted into military service -- is too sacred for this purpose and one should not stain oneself with this guilt; but at the same time it is interesting to note that credit is taken for the results of the experiments while excluding the scientist who performed them.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 542, "page_number": "443", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "\"I personally have inspected tho experiments and have -I can say this without exaggeration -- participated in every phase of this scientific work in a helpful and inspiring ** manner.\n\"We two should not get angry about these difficulties. It will take at least another ten years until we can get such narrow-mindedness out of our people. But this should not affect the research work which is necessary for our young and splendid soldiers and aviators.\n\"I beg you to release Dr. Rascher, Stabsartz in reserve, from the air force and to transfer him to me to the WaffenSS. I would then assume the sole responsibility for having these experiments made in this field, and would put the results of which we in the SS need only for the frost injuries in the East, entirely at the disposal of the air force. However, in this connection I suggest that with the liaison between you and Wolff a \"non-Christian\" physician should be charged, who is at the same time honorable as a scientist and not prone to intellectual theft and who could be informed of the results. This physician should also have good contacts with the administrative authorities, so that the results would really obtain a hearing.\n\"I believe that this solution -- to transfer Dr. Rascher to the SS, so that he could carry out the experiments under my responsibility and under my orders -- is the best way. The experiments should not be stopped; we owe that to our men. If Dr. Rascher remained with the air force, there would certainly be much annoyance; because then I would have to bring a series of unpleasant details to you, because of the arrogance and assumption which Professor Dr. Holzloehner has displayed in tho post of Dachau -- who is under my command -- about me in utterances deliver to SS Colonel Sievers.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 543, "page_number": "", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "In order to save both of us this trouble, I suggest again that Dr. Rascher should be transferred to the Waffen SS as quickly as possible.\n\"I would be grateful to you if you would give the order to put the low pressure chamber at our disposal again, together with step-up pumps, because the experiments should be extended to include even greater altitudes.\n\"Cordial Greetings and heil Hitler.\"\n- 443A", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 544, "page_number": "444", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "DR. BERGOLD:May it please the Tribunal - will the Tribunal show me the original of this letter, because then I will be able to raise an objection. May it please the Tribunal, the copy which I received -- the date of this letter is the 8th of November 1942, and this photostatic copy, though, doesn't say \"8\", but the letter \"B\" appears here. Furthermore, I'd appreciate it if the prosecution could tell me if this sign here doesn't refer to the fact that this is just a draft and not a finished letter. These signs are not in the copy. I'd appreciate it. I take the permission to show it to the Tribunal.\nThere are a number of corrections which show that this is just a draft and not a definite letter, and the letter is also not signed. Therefore, I'd appreciate it if you could put it on record that this is a draft of a letter of November 1942, and not a definite letter -- not a final letter.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Do you have any proof, Mr. McMahon, of the dispatch or receipt of this letter?\nMR. McMAHON:We do not, Your Honor, but we have an indication that it was sent in a later document, which I'll indicate when we come to it. This later document is the letter from Wolff to Milch, which is practically the same as this copy which you have before you now, and in that letter, Wolff referes to the letter which Himmler had sent to Milch, meaning this letter, and he writes a letter much in the same tenor as this letter now being discusses, and that is the proof which we rely upon, of the fact that this letter was sent.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Well, that merely tends to prove that two men planned to write similar letters. Does it tend to prove that they both sent them?\nMR. McMAHON:I think it indicates that there is a strong possibility that this letter was sent to Milch, but it is not signed, I admit, and there are marks on it which may indicate that it was a draft copy.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Do I understand, Dr. Bergold, that you object to the receipt of this exhibit?\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes, sir.", "speakers": [ "MR. McMAHON", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 545, "page_number": "445", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "THE PRESIDENT:Can you advise the Tribunal where this original letter was found? Because, if it was found in the hands of the addressee, that would be conclusive proof that it was sent and received.\nMR. McMAHON:Yes, Your Honor. I don't think we can say that. I believe that copy was found in the files of Himmler.\nTHE PRESIDENT:That is, of the writer?\nMR. McMAHON:That's right.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Well, in that event, we'll hold a ruling on the admissibility of this exhibit to see, whether or not further proof is obtainable from the later exhibit that you referred to.\nMR. McMAHON:Yes, Your Honor.\nThe prosecution would now like to offer in evidence, DocumentNOKW-451, which will be prosecution Exhibit No. 112, to be found on page 147 in the English and 136 of the German Document Books. This is the testimony given by Wolfgang Lutz, before the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America against Karl Brandt, et al, defendants on December 12, 1946, Justice Beals, presiding. Dr. Wolfgang Lutz was an assistant to Dr. Weltz in the Munich Institute. On page 148 of the English copy, beginning with the question: \"Did you do any high altitude research there?\", about half way down the page. Answer is \"Yes.\"\n\"With whom did you work in this high altitude research?\nA.Primarily alone.\nQ.Did you ever work with a scientist at the Weltz Institute by name of Wendt?\nA.Yes. I wrote a scientific treatise with him, together with him.\nQ.Were you considered to be something of an expert in high altitude research?", "speakers": [ "A.", "MR. McMAHON", "Q.", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 546, "page_number": "", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "A.Yes, I understand the question. I believe so, yes.\nQ.And is the sane true of Wendt who collaborated with you on this paper?\nA.Not in that form I believe.\nQ.Do you know Doctor Rascher, witness?\n- 445A", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 547, "page_number": "446", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "A.Yes.\nQ.When and where did you first meet him?\nA.At the Institute. It was discussed, I believe, in the second half of 1941.\nQ.And it was the Institute of Weltz that you refer to?\nA.Yes.\nQ.Did Weltz ever offer you the opportunity to do high altitude research on human beings in the Dachau concentration camp?\nA.Yes, Weltz asked Wendt and me whether we wanted to conduct such experiments.\nQ.Did you accept or refuse this offer?\nA.Both of us refused.\nQ.Why did you refuse?\nA.I personally primarily because I did not consider myself robust enough to conduct such experiments.\" Page 270 of the original:\n\"Q. Did you know that Dr. Rascher was going to make these high altitude experiments in Dachau?\nA.It was discussed.\nQ.You mean that it was known by various members of Weltz's Institute that these experiments were going to be carried out by Dr. Rascher?\nA.It was discussed in the Institute whether such experiments were useful -- were expedient.\nQ.But I asked you if it was known in the Institute that Rascher was going to carry out these experiments.\nA.I believe so; yes.\nQ.And you state that you refused the offer of Weltz to work on human beings in Dachau because you were not ruthless enough; is that right?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 548, "page_number": "", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "A.Yes.\nQ.I take it that this means that you knew that brutality and ruthlessness would be required to do the work in Dachau?\nA.Yes. An experiment involving a certain danger for the experimental subjects, of course, to a certain extent, ruthless, shall I say.\n- 446A", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 549, "page_number": "447", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "Q.Now witness, do you recall when this offer was made to you by Weltz?\nA.I cannot say exactly.\"\nAnd coming down now to the base of the next page, the question:\n\"Q. Now, I will ask you, witness, if you attended a certain conference on Aviation Medicine held in the city of Nurnberg on the 26th and 27th of October 1942?\nA.Yes.\nQ.Do you remember, on the occasion of that meeting, that a paper was read by a man by the name of Holzloehner?\nA.Holzloehner -- yes, I remember that.\nQ.And what was the subject of the paper which Holzloehner read?\nA.The subject of the paper was experiments -- rather, experiences -made on people whose body temperature had been greatly reduced by putting them in cold water.\nQ.It was made clear at this conference by Holzloehner that experiments to study the effects of freezing had been made on living human beings?\nA.Not the effects of freezing, but of general cooling.\nQ.Did Rascher also have something to say at this meeting?\nA.Holzloehner's report did not indicate that the experiments had been conducted on concentration camp inmates, and Rascher then rose and uttered a few sentences which indicated that the experiments had been instigated at the special suggestion of Himmler.\nQ.And what did the statement that these experiments had been made with the support of the Reichsfuehrer SS Himmler, mean to you?\nA.That is difficult to say. I believe that these present, on the whole, were quite impressed by this information.\nQ.I will ask you if it was not understood at this meeting that these experiments had, in fact, been conducted on concentration camp inmates?\nA.I cannot judge that with great certainty, but I believe that must have been made clear for most of them.\nQ.Was it not also made clear, by the talks of Holzloehner and Rascher, that a number of the experimental subjects had been killed during the course of these experiments?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 550, "page_number": "448", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "A.One could at least assume that had been the case, because Holzloehner mentioned certain observations of heart failure among the experimental subjects.\nQ.Wasn't an important part of the clinical picture given to you and the rest of the meeting by Holzloehner, concerned with the causes of death from cold?\nA.I cannot recall that.\nQ.But you do state that it could have been easily assumed that people have died during the course of these experiments?\nA.Yes.\nQ.Now, witness, I will ask you if, at a time after this meeting, you had a discussion with a certain army officer, concerning the freezing experiments in Dachau?\nA.Yes.\nQ.And what did this army officer tell you?\nA.The man visited me at our Institute in Munich, and we discussed some results of animal experiments which I had conducted, and he told me that it must be similar, or that it was similar with human beings. When I asked him how he knew that, he told me that he had been in Dachau and that Rascher had demonstrated some experiments during that visit and had shown him what freezing to death looked like in human beings.\nQ.In other words, it had been demonstrated to this army officer at Dachau, how people died from cold?\nA.That was the impression that I had; yes.\nQ.Do you remember the name of this army officer?\nA.No.\nQ.Now, witness, I will ask you if you have had a discussion with BeckerFreyseng since the end of the war, concerning the high altitude experiments in Dauchau?\nA.No.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 551, "page_number": "449", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "Q.Did you not one occasion see Becker-Freyseng in a prisoner of war camp?\nA.I met him in Eibling, yes.\nQ.And, did he tell you that Erhardt Milch knew all about the high altitude experiments conducted by Doctor Rascher in Dachau?\nA.Becker-Freyseng told me that the Medical Inspectorate, that is, his office, in dealing with concentration camp experiments was by pressed; and that the Medical Inspectorate frequently had to try to prevent disaster.\nQ.Did not Becker-Freyseng tell you that Erhardt Milch knew about the high altitude experiments at Dachau?\nA.I cannot remember that exactly.\nQ.Did he say anything about Erhardt Milch?\nA.Yes, sir.\nQ.What did he say?\nA.That Milch had negotiated directly with Himmler regarding the execution of such experiments without consulting the Medical Inspectorate.\nQ.I will ask you, witness, whether or not High Altitude problems are a matter which concerns a department for the Aviation Medical Inspectorate of the Luftwaffe. This is an aviation medicine problem, is it not?\nA.The High Altitude Experiments, yes, certainly.\nQ.Is the same thing tru of freezing problems?\nA.Yes, certainly.\nMR. McHANEY:I have no further questions.\"\nThe prosecution will now offer in evidence Document No.NOKW-041, which will be Prosecution Exhibit No.113, and is on page 153 of the English and page 144 of the German Document Book. This document is an affidavit signed by Hermann Goering on the 27th of September 1946. Goering, of course, was Chief of the Luftwaffe. He described the duties of the Inspector Central of the Luftwaffe, defendant Milch, and the extent of his jurisdiction. A more authoritative statement of Milch's responsibilities and his position at the top of the command chain for the experiments could hardly be imagined.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "MR. McHANEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 552, "page_number": "450", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "This document firmly fixes Milch's guilt for the criminal medical experiments program. The affidavit reads:\n\"I Hermann Goering, swear, depose and state:\n\"That I am the former Reich Marshal of the German Reich and the former Commander in Chief of the Luftwaffe, that I have personal knowledge of all the facts stated here, and that I know these facts because of the position and responsibility which I had in the German Reich.\n\"That in approximately 1939 the former Field Marshal Erhard Milch was appointed Inspector General of the Luftwaffe and that as such he was directly responsible to me for the performance of his duties.\n\"That the Inspector General of the Luftwaffe was in charge of all tasks and responsibilities, with the exception of these which were concerned with tactical operations (the latter were handled by the Chief of my General Staff). The supervision of the Inspections, as well as the affairs of the Health and Medical Inspections was included in the tasks of the office of the Inspector General. Special questions, however, such as the number of hospitals to be put at the disposal of the individual air fleets, fell within the province of my Chief of Staff.\n\"That Generaleberstabsarzt Dr. Erich Hippke was Chief of the Medical Service of the Luftwaffe during the years 1941 till 1944 inclusive; that the office of the Chief of the Medical Service was directly responsible for the execution of all medical research and experiments; that the office of the Chief of the Medical Service, (for example), Hippke's office, was directly subordinated to the Inspector General, the former Field Marshal Milch.\"\nThis is signed, \"Hermann Goering.\"\nDR. BERGOLD:May it please the Tribunal, I know that I can't object to this document, even though Goering is dead.", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 553, "page_number": "", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "However, I'd appreciate it if you could accept it only under one reserve, namely, if I can show -- unfortunately, I can't call Goering himself to testify -\nTHE PRESIDENT:Under what condition do you wish us to accept the document then?\n- 450A", "speakers": [ "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 554, "page_number": "451", "date": "14 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-14", "text": "DR.BERGOLD; That is, the probative value of it.\nTHE PRESIDENT:You wish the Tribunal to bear in mind that you are unable to call Goering as a witness.\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The Tribunal will recess until tomorrow morning at 9:30.\nTHE MARSHAL:This Tribunal will recess until 0930, tomorrow morning.\n(The Tribunal adjourned until 15 January 1947, at 0930 hours.)", "speakers": [ "DR.", "THE MARSHAL", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 555, "page_number": "452", "date": "15 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-15", "text": "Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America, against Erhard Milch, defendant, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 15 January 1947, 0930-1700, Justice Toms, presiding.\nTHE MARSHAL:The Honorable Judges of Military Tribunal No. 2. This Tribunal is again in session. God save the United States of America add this Honorable Tribunal. There will be order in the Court.\nMR. McMAHON:May it please the Court, at the close of yesterday's session, I had completed the reading of Hermann Goering's affidavit, implicating General Field Marshal Milch in the medical experiments program. That was Exhibit No. 113, on page 153 of the English and 144 of the German Documents Books, 5B.\nThe prosecution will now offer in evidence Document NO-402, which will be Exhibit No. 114, and is on page 156 of the English Document Book, 146 of the German Book.\nWill the Court excuse us for a minute, please, until we get the German copy down?\nTHE PRESIDENT:Meanwhile -- the exhibit starts on page 155.\nMR. McMAHON:Yes; that's right, Your Honor. I think we can proceed now, Your Honor. This report is entitled: \"Report on Experiments on Rescue from High Altitudes,\" signed by Doctors Ruff, Romberg and Rascher. It is dated July 28, 1942. On page 156 of the English copy and the second page of the German Document Book, the abstract, summarizing the report, reads:\n\"A report is to be made on experiments in which the possibility of rescue from high altitudes in the low pressure chamber is studied. Experiments were made at parachute sinking speeds up to 15 Km. (47,000 ft), without oxygen and up to 18 km. (59,000 ft.) with oxygen breathing as well as falling experiments speeds up to 21 km.", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "MR. McMAHON", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 556, "page_number": "", "date": "15 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-15", "text": "(68,000 ft.), altitude with and without oxygen. The results with practical significance will be discussed below.\"\n452a I call Your Honors' attention to the bottom of this page, where the signatures of Rascher, Romberg and Ruff, for the D.V.L. appear, and also the sentence saying:", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 557, "page_number": "453", "date": "15 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-15", "text": "\"These studies were carried out in conjunction with the research and instruction association 'Das Ahnenerbe'\", and thereafter, the dateline, \"Berlin, Adlershof, July 28, 1942.\"\nTurning to the next page, Roman numeral I:\n\"INTRODUCTION AND STATEMENT OF THE PROBLEM.\"\n\"It is theoritically possible for man to reach as high an altitude as he may wish in an aircraft with a pressure cabin. However, the question must be settled as to what results or effects the destruction of the pressure cabin will have upon the human being, who in such cases is exposed in a few seconds to the low air pressure and thereby to the lack of oxygen, which is characteristic of high altitudes. Of particular practical interest is the question from what altitudes and by what means the safest rescue of the crew can be made. In the work at hand, a report is presented on experiments in which were studied the various possibilities of rescue of the crow under special experimental conditions. Since the urgency of the solution of the problem was evident, it was necessary, especially under the given conditions of the experiment, to forego for the time being the thorough clearing up of purely scientific questions.\"\nNow, turning to the next page, under Roman numeral III \"Results of the Experiments.\" Under this heading, Your Honors, No 1:\n\"Sinking experiments without oxygen breathing.\"\n\"Since a thoroughly dependable parachute oxygen apparatus is not yet generally available, experimental tests were made to determine from what altitudes a rescue with open parachute without oxygen is possible.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 558, "page_number": "", "date": "15 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-15", "text": "Therefore, sinking experiments were carried 453a out in which the mask was taken off after ascent with 02 (for oxygen) (for speed of ascent of the Chamber see Fig.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 559, "page_number": "454", "date": "15 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-15", "text": "1), and, after a waiting period of 10 seconds the sinking was begun.\"\nI refer to the experiments which is described three pages further on, on page 161, beginning with the second paragraph:\n\"Descending experiments were made in larger numbers from 15 km. (47,200 ft.) altitude. Since it became evident that at this altitude the approximate limits for what was possible under severe altitude sickness, spasmodic fits etc. had already been reached; an ascent was made as rapidly as possible with the oxygen apparatus to 15 km. altitude.\nAnd the descent was begun. Since the results of these descending experiments were very typical and especially impressive it is necessary to present one of these experiments in detail. The protocol of an experiment will be represented as follows:\"", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 560, "page_number": "455", "date": "15 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-15", "text": "MR. McMAHON: (Reading) \"47,200 ft.\nLets the mask fall, severe altitude sickness, spasmodic (klonische) convulsions.\n45,580 ft. Opisthotonus.\n44,920 ft. Arms stretched stiffly forward; sits up like a dog, legs spread stiffly apart.\n44,950 ft. Suspended in opisthotonus.\n43,310 ft. Agonal convulsive breathing.\n40,030 ft. Dyspnea, hangs limp.\n23,620 ft. Uncoordinated movements with the extremities.\n19,690 ft. Clonic convulsions, groaning.\n18,080 ft. Yells aloud.\n9,520 ft. Still yells, convulses arms and legs, head sinks forward.\n6,560-0 ft. Yells spasmodically, grimaces, bites his tongue.\nDoes not respond to speech, gives the impression of someone who is completely out of his mind.\n5 minutes (after reaching ground level) Reacts for the first time to vocal stimulation.\n7 minutes Attempts upon command to arise, breathes deeply says in sterotyped mannner: \"No, please.\"\n9 minutes Stands upon command; severe ataxia, answers to all questions: \"Just a minute.\" Tries spasmodically to recall his birth date.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 561, "page_number": "", "date": "15 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-15", "text": "10 minutes Typical stereotypes of attitude and movement (catatonia); numbles number to himself.\n11 minutes Holds his head turned convulsively to the right; tries repeatedly to answer the first question concerning his birth date.\n12 minutes Questions of the subject: \"May I slice something?\" (Note: In civilian work he was a delicatessen clerk) \"May I pant, will it be all right if I inhale?\"\n455a Breathes deeply, then says, \"All right, thank you very much.\"", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 562, "page_number": "456", "date": "15 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-15", "text": "15 minutes On being ordered to walk, steps forward and says: \"All right, thank you very much.\"\n17 minutes Gives his name; says he was born in 1928 (born 1 November 1908). Experimenter asks: \"Where?\" \"Something 1928\" \"Profession?\" \"28-1928\".\n18 minutes May I inhale? \"Yes.\" \"I am content with that.\"\n25 minutes Still the question continues: \"Pant?\"\n28 minutes Sees nothing; runs against open window sash upon which the sun is shining, so that large lump is formed on his forehead; says: \"Excuse me please.\" No expressions of pain.\n30 minutes Knows his name and place of birth. Upon being asked for the day's date: \"1 November 1928\". Shivering of the legs; stuper continues; cannot be frightened by the report of a shot. Dark objects are still not discerned; subjects bumps against them. Is aware of bright lights; knows his profession, specially disoriented.\n37 minutes Reacts to pain stimuli.\n40 minutes Begins to observe differences. Fails continually into his previous speech stereotype.\n50 minutes Specially oriented.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 563, "page_number": "", "date": "15 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-15", "text": "75 minutes Still disoriented in time; retrogressive anmesia over three days.\n24 hours Normal condition again attained; has no recollection of the experiment itself.\nMR. McMAHON:The prosecution will now offer in evidence Document 1607 PS, which will be Exhibit No. 115. And, it is on page 174, of the English and on page 148 of the German Document Books. This document is numbered \"A\" & \"B\". The letter which is narked \"A\" is dated 25 August 1942. It is a letter addressed to General Field Marshal Milch, from 456a Himmler, enclosing the report of high altitude experiments.", "speakers": [ "MR. McMAHON" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 564, "page_number": "457", "date": "15 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-15", "text": "Himmler asks Milch to receive Dr. Rascher and Romberg, for a lecture and presentation of the film; the document shows that Milch sent this report, and thus, is additional proof, that he was fully informed of the high altitude experiments.\nHimmler, himself, sent this report to Milch.\nSuch a prominent figure in the Nazi party, with the great power which he possessed, would not have been casually ignored by Milch. The letter reads:\n\"Enclosed please find a report about experiments for rescue from high altitudes, which have been carried out by Surgeon-Major Dr. S. Rascher and Dr. H. W. Romberg. I saw a film produced by Dr. Rascher. I consider the results of those experiments as so important for the Air Force, that I beg you to receive Dr. Rascher and Dr. Romberg for a lecture and the presentation of the film. I am convinced that, after having seen the film, you will also refer the matter to the Reich-Marshal, because of its importance.\nI would be obliged, if you could let me know your opinion in one time.\nFriendly greetings Heil Hitler!\"\nMR. McMAHON:Initials \"H.H.\"\nMR. BERGOLD:May it please the Tribunal! Please let me have the photostatic copy of the original, so that I can make a statement.\nI merely wanted to find out on the copy, whether there was a \"receiving\" mark, which shows the initials \"MI\". Later on, in the course of the introduction of evidence, I shall prove, that all letters which are not signed with a red pencil, and do not carry the initials \"MI\", were never seen by the defendant Milch, but were forwarded directly. This letter does not show the initials \"MI\".\n(Stepping forward and showing the Tribunal the document) May it please the Tribunal, Milch, whenever he received the letter, added his initials \"MI\"; at all times, when Milch received a document he indicated the receipt with a date; he initialed with a date. Those letters which do not show the initial were received by his office, but were not shown to him.", "speakers": [ "MR. BERGOLD", "MR. McMAHON" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 565, "page_number": "", "date": "15 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-15", "text": "At a later date, I can prove this. I just wanted, at this time, to call the Court's attention to it.\n457-A", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 566, "page_number": "458", "date": "15 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-15", "text": "THE PRESIDENT:Mr. McMahon, do you know whether the film referred to in this letter is available?\nMR. McMAHON:As far as we know, your Honor, it is not available. In regard to the one just referred to, I would like your Honor to understand that the copies which we have come from the secret files of Mr. Himmler, therefore, cannot show the initials of Milch; and so, in fact, would not show that Milch had seen that. This letter was received from the files of Himmler and would not have the initials of Milch on this letter. In addition, we have a later reference to this letter, in a letter from Milch, saying that he had received this particular letter.\n\"1607 PS B\" is on the next page, 175 of the English 127 in the German Document Book. This is a letter from Rascher with the report enclosed to Rudolf Brandt, dated 20th of July, 1942, stating that the Himmler report was to be forwarded to Milch.", "speakers": [ "MR. McMAHON", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 567, "page_number": "459", "date": "15 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-15", "text": "The letter reads:\n\"Very esteemed Dr. Brandt:\nEnclosed please find a copy of the work of myself and Dr. Romberg, 'Experiments for rescue from High Altitudes'.\nOn 14 July 1942 I was ordered by the Reichsfuehrer SS to send you the above-mentioned report. The Reichsfuehrer wants that report to be forwarded to General Field Marshal Milch, accompanied by a letter from him, asking Milch to receive Romberg and me for a lecture. I believe to have understood correctly that the Reichsfuehrer thought you would submit to him a letter to that effect for his signature.\nI was very glad to hear that the Reichsfuehrer was satisfied with the result of the work at Dachau and with the film, and that he ordered an intensive continuation of the work in that field.\nI recommended Dr. Romberg for the War Merit Cross on request of SS Lt. Col. Sievers. SS Colonel Dr. Weist ordered me to notify you hereof.\nThe Reichsfuehrer decided furthermore, on 14 July 1942, that the prisoner Sabota and the two prisoners who work in the dissection room in Dachau should be released and transferred to the group \"Dirlewange\". The exact names are in possession of SS Lt Col Sievers. The Reichsfuehrer has also issued an order to that effect to Major Sucheneck.\nI thank you cordially for everything and remain Heil Hitler Yours Faithfully Signed:\nDr. S. Rascher\"\nMR. McMAHON:The Prosecution will now offer in evidence an interrogation of Defendant Milch, DocumentNOKW 421, which will be Prosecution Exhibit No. 116. On page 177 of the English copy and on page 159 of the German Document Book about three-quarters of the way down the page I call attention to the question beginning:\n\"Q. The film was shown in the Aviation Ministry. At the last minute you were prevented from attending the performance and said: Leave the film there.", "speakers": [ "MR. McMAHON" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 568, "page_number": "460", "date": "15 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-15", "text": "..\"\nMR. McMAHON:That should be on page 159 of the German Document Book. The question would read:\n\"The film was shown in the Aviation Ministry. At the last minute you were prevented from attending the performance and said: Leave the film there. I will look at it later. Is that correct?\n\"A. I do not know about it.\n\"Q. Other people remember it very well.\n\"A. I do not know the film. I know of the film only from the report from Himmler or some other agency, that there was one. I did not see or read the report itself, or see or hear anything of the film.\n\"Q. Why did you tell the Reichsfuehrer SS Himmler: I read the report with great interest and will soon see the film.\n\"A. If you knew what the relationship to the Reichsfuehrer SS was, that one could write him anything else if one valued his own life.\n\"Q. But excuse me, then I must assume that you consciously lied to the Reichsfuehrer.\n\"A. I do not believe that you have the right to say that.\"\nNow I would like to offer in evidence Document 343-PS which is on the last page of the index in the Document Book. This will be Prosecution Exhibit No. 117.\nTHE PRESIDENT:What was the document number, Mr. McMahon?\nMR.McMAHON: 343-PS, B. 343-PS A has already been introduced earlier in the trial.\nDR. BERGOLD:May it please the Tribunal I have to raise an objection with reference to the last exhibit referring to the interrogation of the defendant Milch. The defendant draws my attention to the fact that these minutes are not complete. A very important passage is omitted, namely, the passage where he says, \"Why did you write?\". I read that. It further says, \"Upon that Milch replied\", and that is the passage that was ommitted It was customary in a German ministry to write a letter to any subordinate agency in the first person, that is to say of the Ministry, even if the Minister himself was not dealing with the matter personally.", "speakers": [ "MR. McMAHON", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "MR." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 569, "page_number": "461", "date": "15 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-15", "text": "It may be well to point out to the Tribunal that a special letter was already submitted which was also written in the first person although Speer was already sick at that time and this reply is omitted in this exhibit. I, therefore, raise an objection since this interrogation was not submitted in its entirety.\nMR. MC MAHON:Your Honor, we have submitted an excerpt of the interrogation, but the excerpt is complete in itself. I know of no passage such as Dr. Bergold refers to in the original interrogation and until we have that present or can submit it in German in original to show that no such passage existed -\nDR. BERGOLD:I should ask for that.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Do you have the complete transcript of the entire examination of Milch?\nMR. MC MAHON:I do have that, your Honor.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Can you not submit it to Dr. Bergold for his examination?\nMR. MC MAHON:I think we can submit it. I don't know if we have it right here or not.\nDR. BERGOLD:May it please the Tribunal, in order not to use time unnecessarily for the Tribunal may I examine this document during the recess?\nTHE PRESIDENT:Certainly. It has been suggested, Mr. McMahon, by Judge Phillips, that the answer to this interrogatory does not constitute either a confession nor an admission against interest but on the contrary a denial. Another question is: What value does it have as proof?\nMR. MC MAHON:I would like to submit this interrogation and then contrast it with the next letter which I was about to read to show an inconsistency.\nTHE PRESIDENT:You propose to show that the answer as given.\nMR. MC MAHON:That it is inconsistent with a document we have.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Contrary answers may be shown. Dr. Bergold, you can examine the transcript at your leisure and we will take the matter up again.", "speakers": [ "MR. MC MAHON", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 570, "page_number": "462", "date": "15 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-15", "text": "DR. BERGOLD:Thank you.\nMR. McMAHON:This document I mentioned is 343-PS-B, on page 189 of the English and page 200 of the German Document Books. This is Milch's signature on the letter. This is a letter from Milch to Himmler, date 31 August 1942. Milch acknowledges Himmler's letter of 25 August 1942, which was 1607-PS and tells Himmler that he is much interested in the reports of Rascher and Romberg and will call for a lecture and film showing as requested by Himmler. In this letter Milch states that he has (1) read the reports of Dr. Rascher and Dr. Romberg and (2), that he is informed about the current experiments. Milch's signature appears on the letter. How then can he deny his awareness of Dr. Rascher's experiments and state that he does not know about it. The letter reads:\n\"Dear Mr. Himmler I thank you very much for your letter of the 25th of August.\nI have read with great interest the reports of Dr. Rascher and Dr. Romberg. I am informed about the current experiments. I shall ask the two gentlemen to give a lecture combined with the showing of motion pictures to my men in the near future.\nHoping that it will be possible for me to see you at the occasion of my next visit to Headquarters, I remain with best regards and Heil Hitler!Signed:\nE. Milch.\"", "speakers": [ "MR. McMAHON", "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 571, "page_number": "463", "date": "15 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-15", "text": "MR. BERGOLD:If it please the Tribunal, in regard to my previous objection, the defendant tells me he knows very well that he gave that reply, but evidently this reply was not taken down in the minutes. At the time I could not check up on it. The minutes were never shown to him again, nor did he sign them. He cannot recognize the completeness of the reply.\nTHE PRESIDENT:You are referring now to the interrogatives?\nMR. BERGOLD:Yes.\nMR. McMAHON:Your Honor, this interrogation was conducted in the customary manner; the minutes were taken down by a German court stenographer, and if the Court wishes, I think we can reproduce the sound track of this recording; but, as far as we know it is complete, and the original shows just what I have read.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The Tribunal is content to await testimony in accordance with Mr. Bergold's contention that this transcript is not complete. Let's have that first; then, if required, we can make further inquiry as to whether or not it is complete.\nMR. BERGOLD:Thank you.\nMR. McMAHON:The prosecution will now offer in evidence Document No. 269, which will be offered as Prosecution's Exhibit No. 118, and it appears on page 179 of the English Document Book, and page 174 of the German Document Book. This is a letter dated 27 November 1942 from G. Wolff, written on behalf of Himmler to Milch, and repeating Himmler's plea that Rascher be released from the Luftwaffe so that he can be transferred to a permanent assignment with the Waffen SS. Here is a letter informing Milch of the difficulties Rascher is experiencing in the Luftwaffe medical circles because of the low standards of the other Luftwaffe physicians. It constitutes additional proof of the fact that Milch was informed of the conflict going on in the Luftwaffe over the experiments of Dr. Rascher, and of the fact that remained in Milch's power to release Rascher or to put an end to his criminal experiments if Milch were so moved. The letter is dated 27 November 1942.\nTHE PRESIDENT:On the copy it appears to be 21 November.\nMR. McMAHON:We have corrected it from the original Your Honor and it should be 27 November.", "speakers": [ "MR. BERGOLD", "MR. McMAHON", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 572, "page_number": "464", "date": "15 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-15", "text": "It reads as follows: \"Highly esteemed Herr Fieldmarshal, My dear Party comrade Milch. You will remember that by order of the Reichsfuehrer SS I solicited your special interest in the work of an SS Leader Dr. Rascher, who is a physician, commissiined for the duration, with the Luftwaffe. The research, which is concerned with the reaction of the human organism at great heights and with the symptoms brought on by cooling the human body by immersing it for immersing it for a longer period in cold water and similar problems particularly necessary for the Luftwaffe, can be carried out especially efficiently in our organization because the Reichsfuehrer SS himself who is not associated with the Luftwaffe has accepted the responsibility for supply death-deserving as social persons and criminals from the concentration camps for these experiments. Unfortunately, you had no time recently when Mr. Rascher intended to give a lecture at the Aviation Ministry. The Reichsfuehrer SS would have set great hopes on the, because after having been informed yourself you would certainly have intervened and eliminated the great difficulties encountered by Mr. Rascher in his work. The difficulties are still the same as before. In the medical circles of the Luftwaffe they are of the opinion that it is natural for a young German flyer to risk his life, but that the life of a criminal, who is not conscripted into the army, is too sacred for that, and that they cannot sully their reputation by that. It is interesting that they demand the credit for the results of the experiments, while excluding the scientist who made them. The Reichsfuehrer SS himself has looked at these experiments and has-I can say this without exaggerating -- participated in every phase of this scientific work, aiding and also stimulating it. He does not wish now that you and he should become angry about this development. He is of the opinion that it will take at least another decade until we eliminate such narrow-mindedness from our people.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 573, "page_number": "", "date": "15 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-15", "text": "Our physician will keep you personally posted about the research necessary; our young and excellent soldiers must, however, not suffer thereby. The Reichsfuehrer SS, therefore, requests you to release Stabsarzt Dr. Rascher from the Luftwaffe and to transfer him to the Waffen SS. The Reichsfuehrer SS will then, on his own responsibility, arrange for all experiments in this field and make the results, which we in the SS need only in part namely for the cases of freezings in the East, completely available to the Luftwaffe. Here he suggests that you assign to me a really object physician, who furthermore is in a 464 (a) position to keep you personally posted about the research.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 574, "page_number": "465", "date": "15 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-15", "text": "The Reichsfuehrer SS believes that this arrangement -- Dr. Rascher's transfer to the SS, so that he can carry out the experiments under the Reichsfuehrer's responsibility and orders -- is the best way. In any case these experiments must not be stopped, we owe that to our men. If Dr. Rascher remains in the Luftwaffe, there will certainly be many annoyances, because the Reichsfuehrer would then have to inform you of a number of unpleasant details which, so far as can be judged from the course of the experiments to date, would also occur in the future. Professor Holzloehner especially plays a role here. In order to save you and him a lot of trouble the Reichsfuehrer SS requests you to transfer Dr. Rascher to the Waffen SS as quickly as possible. The Reichsfuehrer SS would also be very grateful if you would order that the low-pressure chamber be made available again, along with differential vacum pumps (Stufenaggregatpumpen) as the experiments are to be extended to cover oven greater heights. Best regards and, Heil Hitler. Signed G. Wolff.\"\nMR. BERGOLD:May it please the Tribunal, may I ask to give instructions to the Prosecution as to where this document came from that was read just now -- whether it came from the collection of Himmler or just where it was taken from.\nMR. MC MAHON:This document, Your Honors, was taken from the files of Himmler.\nMR.BERGOLD; Thank you. May it please the Tribunal, may I now make use of this letter to clarify the question discussed yesterday with reference to the so-called Himmler letter to Milch, in behalf of which the Court yesterday decided to suspend the subject so that I may clarify it. May I ask the Tribunal to examine document 1633 in your document book, Exhibit No. 111, on page 145 of your document book. Kindly take it and you will see by it, that the letter by Himmler, as written by Wolff, is almost word for word, identically the same, with the sole difference that Himmler's letter says he had done so and so, and in the letter of Wolff's he referred to what Himmler had done.", "speakers": [ "MR. BERGOLD", "MR.", "MR. MC MAHON" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 575, "page_number": "", "date": "15 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-15", "text": "The comparison of the two letters, in my opinion, will easily show that they are absolutely identical, and consequently the 465 (a) letter of Himmler remains a draft which was never sent out, that rather Himmler evidently ordered Wolff to write this letter for him Himmler to Milch.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 576, "page_number": "466", "date": "15 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-15", "text": "TEE PRESIDENT:The Tribunal notes your comments Doctor Bergold, and it is a matter of argument which does not affect the admissibility of the letters. You may draw whatever inference you wish from the exhibit, but the Court will admit both of them.\nMR. BERGOLD:I am sorry, Your Honor, but I thought that had been ruled on, the question of the admissibility of Document 111, and that the question of its admission was to be decided at a later date. Did I misunderstand that?\nTHE PRESIDENT:No, that is correct.\nMR. MC MAHON:I would like to say, Your Honors, in regard to that letter that it should be admitted insofar as it tends to show Himmler's feelings toward Milch, and the fact that he considered Milch as the all important man in the Luftwaffe insofar as these experiments were concerned. In other words, I think this letter should be admitted, not necessarily intending to prove that this matter was sent to Milch, but it constitutes proof of Himmler's attitude toward Milch, and that this later letter; just read, perhaps written under the copy which did got to Milch, and by which, he had full knowledge of Himmler's intentions in regard to these experiments.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Both exhibits will be admitted in evidence. It is to be assumed from that, that the Court finds, or does not find that the first communication from Himmler was received by Milch; it will be received in spite of the lack of proof of its actual delivery for other reasons.\nMR.McMaHON: Yes, your Honor.", "speakers": [ "MR.", "THE PRESIDENT", "TEE PRESIDENT", "MR. BERGOLD", "MR. MC MAHON" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 577, "page_number": "467", "date": "13 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-13", "text": "The prosecution will now offerNO-262, Exhibit No. 119, which is found on page 182 of the English Document Book and 176 of the German Document Book. This is a letter dated 6 March 1943 from Hippke to Wolff. Hippke maintained he is not opposed to chilling experiments on human beings and that, on the contrary, he is in favor of it. The letter reads:\n\"Dear Obergruppenfuehrer Wolff:\n\"The State Secretary Milch has given me your letter of 21 November of the last year -- Diary No. 1426-42 top secret -- regarding the release of the Stabsarzt of the Luftwaffe Dr. Rascher, to the Waffen-SS.\n\"I am prepared to release the Stabsarzt Dr. Rascher from the Luftwaffe, even after the Reich Physician of the SS, SS Gruppenfuehrer Dr. Grawitz explained to me that he could not find any substitute. I shall put him at the disposal of the Waffen-SS if Rascher himself desires this release. I shall ask him about that.\n\"Your conception thay I, as the responsible director of all medicalscientific research work, would have been opposed to the chilling experiments on human beings and so retarded their development is erroneous. I immediately agreed to the experiments, because our own previous experiments on large animals were concluded and supplementary work was necessary. It is also highly improbable that I, in that I am responsible for the development of all types of possibilities for rescuing our fliers would not do everything possible to further such works. When Rascher in his time explained his wishes to me, I agreed with him immediately. The difficulties Mr. Wolff, lie in an entirely different sphere: it is a question of vanity on the part of every one of whom personally wants to bring out new research results, and very often it is only with great effort that they can be led to work unselfishly for the common good. None of them is without guilt in this respect. Rascher is not either.\n\"If Rascher wants to build up his own research institute within the frame-work of the Waffen-SS, I have no objection. All research work within the field of aviation Medicine -- that is, altitude -- moreover, is under my scientific supervision in my capacity as director of German aviation medicine.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 578, "page_number": "468", "date": "15 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-15", "text": "This institute would then be under the supervision of the Reich Physician of the SS, SS-Gruppenfuehrer Dr. Grawitz.\n\"Momentarily, however, this work cannot be carried on because its continuation would require a low-pressure chamber in which not only the altitude of the stratosphere, but also the stratospheric temperature can be established, but there is no such chamber available in German as yet. It is just being built as a general chamber in the frame-work of the new Research Institute for Aviation Medicine of Berlin, and I hope I shall be able to have it completed in the course of this year.\n\"If Rascher, on the other hand, wishes to conduct other experiments not concerned with altitude and chilling problems, these would not be under my supervision (aviation medicine) but under the supervision of the Hoerossanitaetsinspektor (military medicine), whom he would have to contact.\n\"I am going to talk over all these problems with Rascher in old comradeship, and I shall again notify you.\n\"With kind regards and signed Hippke.\"\nThe prosecution will now offer in evidence DocumentNO-268, which will he Prosecution Exhibit No.120. This is on page 184 of the English and page 178 of the German Document Book. This is a letter dated 19 February 1943 from Hippke to Himmler, reporting on the results of the cold-water freezing experiments and mentioning the Luftwaffe conference of the 26th and 27th of October 1942 in Nurnberg, at which these experiments were discussed. Here we nave Hippke speaking for the Luftwaffe and expressing his thanks for the Reichsfuchrer SS's help in the experiments which were carried out for the benefit of the Luftwaffe. The letter reads:\n\"Reichsfuehrer:\n\"The experiments conducted in Dachau concerning protective measures against the effective freezing on the human body by immersion in cold water have lead to results of practical use. They were conducted by the Stabsarzte of the Luftwaffe Professer Dr. Holzloehner. Dr. Finke and Dr. Rascher in co-operation with the SS, and are now finished.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 579, "page_number": "469", "date": "13 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-13", "text": "The result was reported upon by those who worked on them during a conference on medical problems arising from distress at sea and winter hardships on 26th and 27th October 1942 at Nurnberg. The detailed report on the coherence is at present in state of preparation.\n\"I thank you most gratefully for the great assistance that co-operation of the SS has meant for us in conducting the experiments, and beg you t c express our thanks, too, to the corm under of the Dachau camp.\n\"Heil Hitler signed, Prof.\nDr. Hippke.\"\nThe next document which the prosecution will offer in evidence is NO-448, which will be prosecution Exhibit No. 121 and is on page 185 of the English Document Book and page 179 of the German Document Book. This is an affidavit of Dr. Becker-Freyseng, who was a physician attached to the Medical Inspectorate, about the Nurnberg conference of the Luftwaffe on the 26th and 27 of October 1942. The freezing experiments at Dachau were openly discussed and there was a general understanding that experimental persons who were being used against their will their death was expected. Thus, it was known throughout the Luftwaffe and as a result Milch cannot avoid responsibility by his plea that these experiments wore little known in Luftwaffe circles. The affidavit reads:\n\"I, Hermann Becker-Freyseng, being duly sworn, depose and state:\n\"1. I was born on 18 July 1910 in Ludwigshafen. I studied medicine at the Universities of Heidelberg, Innsbruck, and Berlin. In the summer of 1940 I joined the Luftwaffe. At first I was an Unterarzt with a Flyer Selection Group.\"\nNow, skip to Paragraph 4 at the bottom of the page.\n\"When I first joined the Luftwaffe, Hippke was Chief of the Inspectorate of the Medical Service of the Luftwaffe. Schroeder at that time was Chief Medical Officer of Air Fleet 2 and held the rank of Generalstabarzt. Schroeder held the highest rank in the medical service of the Luftwaffe other than Hippke.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 580, "page_number": "470", "date": "15 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-15", "text": "Schroeder became Chief of the Medical Service of the Luftwaffe in January 1944.\n\"5. At the Nurnberg conference held in October 1942, Dr. Holzloehner gave a report on the freezing experiments conducted at Dachau in co-operation. with Dr. Rascher. Anthony was Chairman of the meeting. As a result of Holzloehner's report and others given at the conference, we issued instructions to Flight Surgeons that the warm bath method was to be used in receiving aviators who had been severely chilled.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Shouldn't that be \"reviving?\"\nMR. McMAHON.I think it should be, your Honor, the will correct it to make it \"reviving.\"\n\"I know that prior to the Nurnberg conference Holzloehner was experimenting with Rascher in Dachau on freezing problems. I also knew that Ruff and Romberg had conducted certain low-pressure experiments at Dachau in co-operation with Rascher. It was fairly well-known that those men were experimenting on concentration,camp inmates. Dr. Kalk told me that he had seen Rascher in Milch's office at the RLM and we were both very surprised at this.\"", "speakers": [ "MR. McMAHON.", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 581, "page_number": "471", "date": "15 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-15", "text": "This affidavit is dated 24 October 1946. The next document which the prosecution wishes to offer in evidence isNOKW-419, which is Exhibit No. 122 and is on page 188 in the English and page 194 in the German Document Book. This is an interrogation of Dr. Weltz, beginning with the question:\n\"Was it explained to you that in the case of severe freezing, where, however, there wag still some life left, rewarming was -contrary to the previously held opinion -- called for?\n\"A. That is a fact which I and my associates at Dachau, Holzloehner, Finke and Rascher found out simultaneously and we presented this matter at the same meeting and at the Nurnberg meeting.\n\"Q. You had thus had tho experience in your experiments with animals that a quick re-warming of those who have been severely frozen is possible?\n\"A. Yes.\n\"Q. And then it was openly discussed at the Nurnberg meeting?\n\"A. Yes.\"\nThe next document to be offered in evidence --\nTHE PRESIDENT:Is there any documentary evidence that Milch was at the Nurnberg meeting?\nMR. McMAHON:I do not have such evidence, your Honor, but our point is: it was a meeting of major importance to Luftwaffe medical circles and as Inspector General of the Luftwaffe it was Milch's responsibility to acquaint himself with whatever went on at that meeting and whatever was discussed there.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The meeting was held for the benefit of the Luftwaffe?\nMR. McMAHON:It was, your Honor. It was a Luftwaffe meeting to discuss medical problems and its advance in medical research.\nTHE PRESIDENT:And he was in a position, whether he was there or not, that he should have known of the information that was there disclosed?", "speakers": [ "MR. McMAHON", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 582, "page_number": "472", "date": "15 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-15", "text": "MR. MC MAHON:That's right, your Honor. The next document which the prosecution will offer in evidence isNO-224, which will be Prosecution Exhibit No.123and is on page 190 of the English and page 201 of the German Document Book. This is an undated memoranda made by Dr. Romberg concerning the September 1942 meeting in Milch's office in the RLM, which meeting Milch failed to attend. The Court will please note that Milch was the man who finally approved the distribution schedule for this report. Reading from this document:\n\"On September 11, 1942 at 9:45 o'clock Stabsarzt Dr. Rascher and Dr. Romberg met, according to telephonic and oral agreements with Colonel Pendele, in the ante-chamber of the Secretary of State. We were informed that the Secretary of State had ordered this conference at the present stage, in the course of which a report on experiments concerning \"rescue from great heights\" was to be made, and the motion picture concerning these experiments was to be shown. The gentlemen waiting in the ante-chamber of the Secretary of State and in the corridor, most of them from the experimental staff, were informed that previous to the conference a motion picture was to be shown, so that all went to the motion picture room on the 5th floor. Here quite a large number of people were already present, so that 30 to 40 persons were there in all. among them were --- we know some of them personally -- some officer, medical and engineer officer, whose presence surprised us in view of the top secret nature of the motion picture end of the experiments. No checking of the persons present was done, nor was there an attendance list. As, after a short time of waiting, the Secretary of State had not come the motion picture was shown, without giving us an opportunity for preliminary or explanatory remarks. During the intermission between the two parts of the motion picture, Dr. Rascher referred once more to the strict obligation of secrecy ordered by the Reichsfuehrer-SS.", "speakers": [ "MR. MC MAHON" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 583, "page_number": "", "date": "15 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-15", "text": "After completion of the snowing of the motion picture the Secretary of State had not come, as he had been summoned to the Reichsmarshal -- the persons present still talked a little while about the notion picture, on which 472 (a) occasion less interest was shown in the subject itself than in the place of the experiments and the individuals who had been experimented upon.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 584, "page_number": "473", "date": "15 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-15", "text": "After this period of time, during which we were neither called upon to make any statements whatsoever, nor were we, considering the great forum and the absence of the Secretary of State, inclined to give any reports the greatest part of those present sent back to the development conference while Oberstarzt Wuerfler, Oberstarzt Prof. Kolk, Stabsarzt Bruehl and Government Councillor Benzinger asked us for a report in a small medical circle. As, however, the Secretary of State had prohibited any report previous to the fixing of distribution, we refused to disclose the results of the experiments. Oberstarzt Kolk stated that he was willing to report to the Secretary of State our wishes concerning the fixing of distribution and the continuation of the experiments.The motion picture film was handed to Colonel Vorwald.\n\"According to the conference with Oberstrumbannfuehrer Sievers, i tried to get the film back on the same day, but Colonel Vorwald was still at the development conference, then I telephoned the next day and requested that the film be handed back, Colonel Vorwald declared that he would like to keep the film until after Sunday, the 13th of September, since on this day the Reichsmarshal was coming and might perhaps desire to see the motion picture, accordingly, I let Colonel Vorwald keep the motion picture for that day. On the 14th of September I went to fetch the motion picture from Colonel Vorwald and was informed that it had not been shown. On the same day I spoke with Stabsarzt Bruel, who informed me that Oberstarzt Kolb had transmitted, still on September 11th, our wished concerning distribution and continuation of the experiments to the Secretary of State. The Secretary of State --\"-- who was Milch -- \" had approved distribution schedule and said that a continuation of the experiments was not urgent. A few days later, the distribution schedule, accepted by the Secretary of State, was sent to the DVL by Colonel Pendele, and the report was accordingly transmitted by the DVL to the offices concerned. Since that time I have not received any news, neither concerning the motion picture nor concerning the report.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 585, "page_number": "474", "date": "15 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-15", "text": "Signed - Dr. Romberg.\"\nThe prosecution will now offer in evidence DocumentNO-191, which will be Prosecution Exhibit No.124and is on page 193 of the English and page 203 of the German Document Book. This document is an affidavit signed by Rudolf Brandt, who was Himmler's personal adjutant and this document is dated 30 August 1946. It concerns the low-pressure experiments. Here Brandt states that Milch has full knowledge of these experiments. As Himmler's adjutant Brandt knew the details of this matter. Note that he states the experiments could not have been conducted without the knowledge and consent of Milch. The affidavit roads:", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 586, "page_number": "475", "date": "15 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-15", "text": "\"I, Rudolf Hermann Brandt, swear, depose and state \"1. I was born on 2 June 1909 at Frankfurt on the Oder, Germany, and studied law at the universities of Berlin and Jena.\nIn 1932 I became a member of the National Socialist German Labor Party, and my party number --\" I can't quite make that out, Your Honor. \"In October 1933, I became a member of the SS with the number 129771. On 9 November 1935 I Was made Untersturmfuehrer and was promoted step by step to the rank of Standartenfuehrer. In 1936 or 1937 I became personal consultant to Heinrich Himmler, Reichsfuehrer of the SS. This position was of an administrative nature as a personal assistant to Himmler.\n\"2. By reason of my position as personal consultant to Himmler I had the opportunity to look into details of many activities in which Himmler and various SS personalities participated. I obtained this insight by discussions with Himmler and other persons involved, and by conferences, correspondence and similar things. I read and answered a great number of letters addressed to Himmler. In some welfare cases I handled such administrative details on my own initiative, for which a basic directive of the Reichsfuehrer SS existed.\n\"3. By reason of my above-mentioned position and experiences, I also obtained insight into the medical experiments on human beings and I am in the position to give the following testimony on this subject.\n\"A. The low pressure experiments.\n\"4. In May 1941 I heard for the first time of the plan to conduct experiments on human beings. The idea came from Dr. Sigmund Rascher, Stabsarzt of the Luftwatffe and later Hauptsturmfuehrer of the SS. At that time, Rascher participated in a course in Aviation Medicine at the Luftgaukommando VII (Air Force District Command) in Munich. He wrote to Himmler and suggested that concentration camp inmates be placed at his disposal in order to establish the altitude reaction the human body.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 587, "page_number": "", "date": "15 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-15", "text": "Volunteers could not very well be expected, as the experiments could be fatal under circumstances. Rascher further declared that the test station for High Altitude Research of the Air Force, whose director was Dr. G.N. Weltz, was ready to conduct such experiments.\n475 (a) \"5. Himmler had me answer this letter of Rascher who was informed in this answer that prisoners would be made available for the purpose of the experiments.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 588, "page_number": "476", "date": "15 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-15", "text": "Later on, in July 1941, Himmler authorized Dr. Weltz, Dr. Rascher, and Dr. Kottenhof to conduct the tests of low pressure experiments in the concentration camp Dachau.\n\"6. It was about mid-March when the experiments began. In the meantime, the necessary technical preparations were carried out by Dr. Weltz. Dr. Kottenhoff was transferred to Roumania but the other participants in these were reinforced by Dr. Ruff, director of the Aviation Institute, Berlin-adlershof, and his assistant Dr. Romberg. These men, together with Weltz and Rascher, held a conference in Dachau in which technical preparations were discussed with the commander of the concentration camp Dachau, Pierkrowski, and the Munich adjutant of the Reichsfuehrer SS, Schnitzler. Dr. Weltz promised to obtain the necessary orders for Dr. Rascher from the Luftwaffe.\n\"7. It was ordered by the Reichsfuehrer SS that Rascher was to participate personally in the experiments on human beings in Dachau. According to that, I wrote to Sievers in March 1942 that the experiments were approved as long as Rascher participated in them. It was mainly Luftwaffe experiments and Rascher was the only SS doctor in the Group. This was done by request of Mrs. Rascher, who was afraid that other members, especially Dr. Weltz, would assume leadership and. responsibility for the experiments and. so brush aside Dr. Rascher. She wanted Rascher to be attached to the Aviation Research Institute, Berlin-Adlershof, to prevent Weltz from transferring him somewhere else. Rascher was to be transferred by Himmler's order through Generaloberstabsarzt Dr. Hippke, who extended the order to the effect that Rascher was attached to Weltz's organization in Munich.\n\"8. In April 1942 Rascher sent a report draft on the progress of the experiments to Himmler. This report stated that the experiments were conducted, with the aim of ascertaining how long human beings could live if subjected to the variations occurring in high altitudes (lack of oxygen and low pressure). Many experiments ended with the death of the experimental subject. Rascher declared in any accompanying letter that Sievers had seen some of the experiments.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 589, "page_number": "477", "date": "15 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-15", "text": "\"9. After Himmler had read the report, he ordered Rascher to continue the experiments on persons who were sentenced to death. If the experimental subjects survived the experiments, their sentenced was commu*ed to life imprisonment. He also requested him to invite Dr. Fahrenkamp to this experiments. In the meantime, Sievers had reported to Himmler on his visit to Dachau and his knowledge of and participation in the low pressure experiments. For subjects who volunteered the prison sentences were to be reduced.\n\"10. Rascher inquired later on whether Poles and Russians who survived the experiments were to have their death sentence commutted. I answered Obersturnfuehrer Schnitzler by order of the Reichsfuehrer SS that the death sentence of Poles and Russians was not to be commuted.\n\"11. There is no doubt that numerous mishaps occurred in the course of these experiments. I remember that Mrs. Rascher wrote to me asking for permission to take color photos of newly dissected bodies; this permission was granted.\n\"12. Generalfeldmarschall E. Milch and Professor Hippke, Inspector of the Medical Service of the Luftwaffe, were fully informed about the low pressure experiments. Actually, these experiments could not have been conducted without the knowledge and approval of these men, as they were conducted for the benefit of the Luftwaffe and the experimenting persons were mostly Luftwaffe physicians. Rascher was also a member of the SS and that's why Himmler insisted in his full participation in the experiments. He wanted the SS to get credit for this undertaking.\n\"Karl Wolff was the liaison man between Himmler and Milch for the low pressure and freezing experiments. I remember a correspondence between Himmler and Milch, in which the latter admits to have read the reports of Rascher and Romberg. The Air Ministry (RLM) was to show films on these experiments. It is also know to me that Himmler tried to get Rascher's release from the Luftwaffe by a letter to Milch so that he would only be under the orders of the SS. In this he finally succeeded through Hippke's office.\" This is signed.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 590, "page_number": "478", "date": "15 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-15", "text": "\"Rudolph Brandt.\"\nThe final document offered by the Prosecution in evidence isNO 242, which will be Prosecution Exhibit No.125. It is on Page 196 of the English and, Page 207 of the German Document Book. The German copy of this was illegible -\nTHE PRESIDENT:The court will take its customary recess.\n(A recess was taken)", "speakers": [ "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 591, "page_number": "479", "date": "15 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-15", "text": "TEE MARSHAL:The Tribunal is again in session.\nMR. MC MAHON:The exhibit which we were about to discuss was NO242, Exhibit No. 125, on page 196 of the English document book and page 207 of the German book. This affidavit is sworn to by Rudolf Brandt and concerns freezing experiments. It reads:\n\"I, Rudolf Emil Hermann Brandt, being duly sworn, depose and state:\n\"1. I am the same Rudolf Brandt who has heretofore sworn to an affidavit on the 30th day of August, 1946, concerning certain low pressure experiments performed on human beings at the Dachau Concentration Camp.\n\"2. For the same reason set forth in paragraphs 1, 2, and 3 of my affidavit of 30 August 1946 I am able to make this statement concerning freezing experiments performed on human beings.\nFREEZING EXPERIMENTS \"3. In the late Spring of 1942 Field Marshal Milch of the Luftwaffe, in a letter to SS Obergruppenfuehrer Karl Wolff (Chief of the Personnel Staff of the Reichsfuehrer SS), authorized the freezing experiments on human beings; Oberstabsarzt A.G. Weltz was ordered to make these experiments and Rascher was to assist him.\nMilch expressed his thanks to the SS for their cooperation with the Supreme Command of the Luftwaffe in conducting the low pressure experiments --\"\nI believe that should read \"Of the Supreme Command of the Luftwaffe.\"\n\"--To the best of my recollection Rascher wrote Himmler a few weeks later to the effect that Generaloberstabsarzt Professor Dr. Hippke had requested freezing experiments to be carried out on concentration camp inmates at Dachau. Rascher requested that Himmler approve the pardon of several inmates at Dachau who had assisted him in performing autopsies on human guinea pigs who were killed during the course of the low pressure experiments.", "speakers": [ "TEE MARSHAL", "MR. MC MAHON" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 592, "page_number": "480", "date": "15 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-15", "text": "4. The Luftwaffe was interested in having the cooling experiments conducted because of the fact that a number of German aviators were forced to parachute into \"The North Sea, and consequently were so etimes subjected to extreme cold for extended periods of time. The purpose of the freezing experiments was to learn the most effective way of rewarming such aviators, thereby saving their lives.\n5. The freezing experiments were begun in August 1942, and RASCHER sub mitted a preliminary report in September 1942. The test persons were partially submerged in ice water to lower their body temperature. This report stated that some of the experimental subjects were killed as a result of the experiments RASCHER attempted to revive the frozen subjects by rapid rewarming with hot water. He stated that rewarming by animal heat had not yet been utilized, but that he thought it would be too slow.\n6. HIMMLER acknowledged receipt of this report late in September and ordered RASCHER to explore the effectiveness of rewarming by animal heat. A copy of this letter was sent to Sievers with a request for acknowledgment.\n7. As a result of HIMMLER's request that animal warmth be used as one of the methods of rewarming in the course of the experiments, RASCHER made a request that a number of women be supplied for this purpose. I know that women were supplied to RASCHER, and that they were used to rewarm the experimental subjects who had been frozen.\n8. In October 1942, RASCHER submitted the final report on the freezing experiments performed at Dachau. This report did not contain the results of a series of experiments with drugs and with animal body heat which were then still being conducted. It was also noted that the report did not contain the microscopic pathological examinations of the brain tissues of the deceased. This report was signed by Prof. Dr. E. Holzloehner, Dr. Sigmund RASCHER and Dr. E. Finke, Data was submitted concerning number of subjects who were frozen to death.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 593, "page_number": "481", "date": "15 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-15", "text": "9. Himmler acknowledged receipt of this report; a copy of the letter being \"sent to Karl Wolff. He stated that a copy of the report had been sent to field Marshall MILCH of the Luftwaffe, and went on to state that he expected reports regarding the use of animal heat in reviving the frozen subjects. He further asked RASCHER to submit the names of people who were opposed to experiments on human beings, and stated that such peoples were to be considered as traitors. Later on Himmler had a conference with Rascher concerning the experiments, and during November he visited Dachau in order to observe personally the experiments.\n10. It should be noted that some jealousy arose among Rascher and his collaborators, as a result of the low pressure and freezing experiments. Sievers was of the opinion that Holzloehner was attempting to receive credit for the cold experiments, and that the same had been done by Dr. Ruff with regard to the low pressure experiments. For this reason, Sievers suggested to Himmler that it would be wise if Rascher were taken over entirely into the SS and away from the Luftwaffe, so that his work can be carried out under the sole auspices of the Personnel Staff of the Reichsfuehrer SS, and the Anhererbe Institute. As a result of this, Himmler wrote a letter to Field Marshall MILCH in November 1942, requesting that Rascher be discharged from the Luftwaffe and transferred to the Waffen SS. Himmler stated that he would assume sole responsibility for experimentation on human beings.\"\nNow omitting paragraph 11, and reading at paragraph 13:\n\"13. Rascher had still not been released from the Luftwaffe as late as January 1943, and no answer had been received from MILCH in reply to the formal request made by Himmler in November 1942. Sievers was concerned about this delay because Rascher was planning to make certain experiments on the effect of dry-cold on human beings, and since it was thought that these could not be started prior to Rascher's transfer, Sievers was becoming concerned lost the transfer of delayed by the cold season. I know that Sievers was in touch with Wolff on several occasions, and urged him to expedite the transfer.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 594, "page_number": "482", "date": "15 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-15", "text": "Wolff was serving as the liaison between Himmler and MILCH in this matter.\"\nNow going to paragraph 18:\n\"18. The efforts to release Rascher from the Luftwaffe were intensified. Hippke had apparently heard the criticism of the SS that Rascher had not been given full cooperation by the Luftwaffe, and he defended himself against the accusation that ho had not enthusiastically reported the experiments performed on human beings. He indicated would be willing to approve of Rascher's release from the Luftwaffe if Rascher himself made the requests. Hippke pointed out that the difficulties about which there was some complaint were caused not because of any disapproval of experiments on human beings, but because of the personal vanities of the various doctors involved in that each one apparently wanted to take personal credit. Rascher himself was criticized in that respect.\n19. Rascher defended himself in a latter to me against this slur of Hippke, and added that he had made further tests on the resuscitation of human beings who were frozen by dry-cold during a period of heavy frost.\nThe experimental subjects were kept naked outdoors for 14 hours at freezing temperatures. A complete report on this subject was sent to Himmler in April 1943. I acknowledged receipt of this report in a letter to Rascher, and according to orders advised to get in touch with Prof. Gebhardt at Hohenlychen, to whom Himmler had sent the aforesaid report. Rascher was also directed to send a copy of the report to Grawitz.\"\nThe signature to this affidavit should read \"Rudolf Brandt\" instead of \"R. Rascher\". It is dated the 9th September 1946.\nFor the purpose of the record, Your Honor, I wish to call your attention to the exhibit number of Document 343B-PS, which is Exhibit No. 117. Also in regard to Exhibit No. 101, which consisted cf documentsNOKW 426, 450 and 452. These exhibits are now being submitted to the Secretary General as his Exhibit No. 112,NOKW 451.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Let's get these exhibit numbers straight on the NOKW.", "speakers": [ "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 595, "page_number": "483", "date": "15 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-15", "text": "MR. MCMAHON: 450.\nTHEPRESIDENT: 450 and 452.\nMR. MCMAHON:They are correct.\nTHEPRESIDENT: 426 was given Exhibit No. 100, was it not?\nMR. MCMAHON:I think they are all included as Exhibit No. 101. Your Honor.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Will you tell me what is the number of -- exhibit number of 2428-PS?\nMR.MCMAHON:That was Exhibit No. 100.\nTHE PRESIDENT:All right.\nJUDGE PHILLIPS:I have them asNOKW 246, 450 and 452 are all Exhibit No. 101.\nMR. MCMAHON:That is right, Your Honor.\nJUDGE PHILLIPS:And then 1581-PS is No. 102.\nMR. MCMAHON:Yes, Your Honor. This, Your Honor, completes the presentation of evidence in the medical experiments case.\nMR. DENNY:If Your Honor please, the Prosecution at this time would like to request a short adjournment in order that we may correct the record, and make sure nothing has been omitted which we would want to include. addition there is a possibility that we may have some more material to present to Your Honors, but I am not in a position to state now whether that material is forthcoming. I also understand Dr. Bergold also has an objection which he would like to make.\nTHE PRESIDENT:How long do you wish to stay to assure yourself that proofs are all in the record and complete, and in order to determine there may be more and further proof for the Prosecution?\nMR. DENNEY:Certainly the balance of today should be sufficient on the first count; sofar as additional proof is concerned. Your Honor, I am not in a position to state. I don't know.\nTHE PRESIDENT:If you find you have further proof that should be submitted even after the defense opens, you may do so.", "speakers": [ "JUDGE PHILLIPS", "MR.MCMAHON", "THE PRESIDENT", "THE", "MR. MCMAHON", "MR. DENNY", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 596, "page_number": "484", "date": "15 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-15", "text": "MR. DENREY:We would be perfectly willing to do that, Your Honor, if there is an agreement.", "speakers": [ "MR. DENREY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 597, "page_number": "485", "date": "15 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-15", "text": "DR. BERGOLD:May it please the Tribunal, I must ask for a recess for the following reasons. The case of the defendant Milch, from the point of view of time, is particularly difficult because it is a question here of one defendant. To be sure, I have acted for the defendant since November, but as I stated earlier, I had not received the documentation for my defendant until the beginning of this case. The documentation from the Central Planning I did not receive until the prosecution began its case because they are in the possession of the Secretary General. The documents pertaining to the Central Planning that have so far been presented I have not been able to go through in detail. Only in the Information Center for the Defense are these to be found. They cannot be taken from that Center. I cannot give them to my secretary to be copied but must read them there. The office is closed at six o'clock.\nAlmost every day I have been here in the court house and in the court, and after the termination of the court I only had an hour to work on these things. There are enormous piles of books that I estimate to be about five volumes of files that I must go through. I have not had a chance to read the court record of the case regarding the Jaegerstab. None of the witnesses whom I have requested have I been able to speak to personally. Many of them are on their way to Nurnberg or are not here. Therefore, I state my convictions that I am doing everything I can, working from early in the morning until late at night, but so far I simply do not have the data at my disposal and because of the sessions here in court I have not had the time necessary. The witnesses have not yet come.\nI believe I shall need at least a recess of two weeks to prepare myself. I grant that is quite a length of time but because of the extent and scope of this case it is really a very short time. I know that the prosecution has been working on this case for several months. I have seen the documentation and evidence. It is not possible for me to go through this vast material in just one or two days. I must read through all of the files precisely and I must be able to consult with my witnesses. I, therefore, request at least a period of recess of at least two weeks. I must also say that even then I am afraid I may have to ask for a further recess, but I shall do everything in my power to make that two weeks recess suffice.", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 598, "page_number": "486", "date": "15 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-15", "text": "Unfortunately, I can only work on this material during the office hours of the Information Center. After the office closes, I am not allowed to work there because it is not permitted for me to have access to these documents unless there is a guard there. That is my application.\nTHE PRESIDENT:In order to expedite the work of the court, Mr. Denny, would it not be possible for arrangements to be made for Dr. Bergold to have more access to the Information Center, that is, for longer hours in the evening? Could not the necessary guard be provided?\nMR. DENNY:If Your Honor please, I an uninformed about the process in the Information Center. I can make inquiry and advise Your Honors.\nTHE PRESIDENT:That is under the jurisdiction of the Secretary General, is it?\nMR DENNY:As I understand it, we have nothing to do with it directly.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Then that is the court's problem. It seems that we could direct the Secretary General to see to it that Dr. Bergold has access to the material in the Information Center, Defense Center, during the evening or outside of their regular hours. Would that assist you Dr. Bergold, if we did that?\nDR. BERGOLD:Most certainly. But even then, because of the vast extent of the material and the number of witnesses, I shall still need two weeks. I shall, in addition, have to call further witnesses; namely, those who have given affidavits in the case of tho prosecution and whom I shall want to cross-examine. I am trying to do everything I can to see to it that I do not call witnesses who avail nothing in my case.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:Dr. Bergold, during the 30-day period following the filing of the indictment and the actual beginning of the trial, did you not have an opportunity to examine tho documents that you now speak of?\nDR. BERGOLD:No. Only after the first or second meeting, of the court, did I receive those documents. We started here in January and then I asked that the documents pertaining to the Central Planning be given to be and only then-a few days later--did I receive these documents on the Initiative of the Tribunal itself.", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "MR DENNY", "MR. DENNY", "JUDGE MUSMANNO" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 599, "page_number": "487", "date": "15 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-15", "text": "May it please the Tribunal, let me add one thing: in Court No. 1, in the first case, the defense had the documents only a week ahead of time, but since the trial had been going on since November or December, consequently the defense has had the material in its hands for quite a while; and if they since we have been in session only since January, is not unreasonable. We have had to leave our own rooms--the Information Center closes at six--at nine o'clock we have to leave our own offices. Moreover, I am only able to speak to my client only during the evening hours. Unfortunately, it is usually about six-thirty before he is accessible so that I spend most of my evening hours after six-thirty speaking to the defendant. That again takes me more time.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The Tribunal has determined to recess further proceedings until a week from next Monday. The Court will recess at this time and reconvene on January 27 at nine-thirty in the morning.\nTHE MARSHAL:This Tribunal is recessed until 0930 on the 27 January.\n(The Tribunal adjourned until 27 January 1947 at 0930 hours.)", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 600, "page_number": "491", "date": "27 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-27", "text": "Official transcript of the American Military Tribunals Court, case No. 2, in the matter of the United States of America against Erhard Milch, defendant, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany on 27 January, 1947, 0930 - 0945. Justice TOMS, presiding.\nTHE MARSHALL:Military Tribunal No. 2 is now in session. God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal. There will be order in the court.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The Marshal will ascertain whether the defendant, Erhard Milch, is present in Court.\nTHE MARSHAL:May it please Your Honors, the defendant is present in the Court.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Is counsel for the defendant, Dr. Bergold also present?\nTHE MARSHAL:Dr. Bergold is also present in the courtroom.\nMR DENNEY:If Your Honors please, the prosecution is not prepared at this time to submit some additional evidence which we have, as it is not ready. As I understand it, Dr. Bergold was going to start today. In any event we are prepared to concede at this time with reference to tho application by tho defense for calling von Neurath as a witness. If Your Honors recall Dr. Bergold stated that he was calling this witness to show that the Soviet Union was not a participating member of the Geneva Convention. The Prosecution is willing to concede that the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics was not at any time a signatory of the Geneva Convention. However, we wish to direct the Court's attention to the fact that our contention is that the Geneva Convention was only an effort to codify tho already existing rules of land warfare. However, in making this concession we don't for a moment waive our contention that as prisoners of war, soldiers and officers of all nations are entitled to humane treatment, both under the rules of International Law, and under general Humanitarian principles, and that these rules apply whether or not some one has already signed as signatory of a particular pact, or articles of agreement at a convention which has been agreed to among other nations.", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHALL", "MR DENNEY", "THE PRESIDENT", "THE PRESIDENT", "THE MARSHAL" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 601, "page_number": "492", "date": "27 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-27", "text": "THE PRESIDENT:Any further evidence this Prosecution has to present will be documentary in form?\nMR DENNEY:Yes, if Your Honors' please, so far as we know now, except by way of rebuttal we may have some witnesses.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Then tho Prosecution does not rest its case today?\nMR DENNEY:No, sir. If Your Honor is agreeable we would rather not at this time. I think that was Your Honor's ruling Wednesday a week ago, at which time we adjourned, the understanding being that Dr. Bergold would start this morning.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Then you understand, Dr. Bergold, that the Prosecution reserves the right to present its further documentary evidence, and witnesses, , even after you enter into the defense case.\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes, sir.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Is that agreeable?", "speakers": [ "MR DENNEY", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 602, "page_number": "493", "date": "27 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-27", "text": "DR. BERGOLD:May it please the Tribunal, that is agreeable to me, under the condition that I can take issue also with the further evidence that is submitted after I have concluded or during the presentation of my case.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Of course, that is your right.\nIn view of the concession of the Prosecution of the fact that Russia did not sign the Geneva Convention agreement, do you waive the production of von Neurath as a witness?\nDR. BERGOLD:May it please the Tribunal, I can nevertheless not do without this witness because there is a difference between my attitude on this man and that of the Prosecution. The prosecution can do without this witness on the ground that Russia did not sign the Geneva Convention. They do not, however, assert that Russia withdrew from this agreement. It seems to me that this is a very essential juridical difference, whether, on the one hand, a nation does not sign a pact or, on the other hand, withdraws from it, as the Soviet Union did from the pact that Czarist Russia had signed.\nThis withdrawal must have a juridical significance and is important for this reason; namely that the Prosecution says that the Geneva Convention was merely a codification of usages of war that already existed. If, then, a country withdraws from this codification of usages, the Prosecution must concede that the Soviet Union withdrew from the Geneva Convention after once having belonged to it.\nMR. DENNEY:If Your Honors please, Dr. Bergold is now taking a different position from that which he had when we were discussing the witness von Neurath. Our position is the came as it was at that time and which I expressed this morning. Whether or not the soviet Union was a signatory and then withdrew, I don't know. I am willing to make the concession which we have made, and for the law on the point we rely on the decision of the International Military Tribunal, part of which has been read into the record and the balance of which we will present at the proper time.", "speakers": [ "MR. DENNEY", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 603, "page_number": "494", "date": "27 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-27", "text": "THE PRESIDENT:Well, without trying to reach any implications, you are not prepared to concede that Russia withdrew from the Geneva Convention after having once subscribed to it?\nMR. DENNEY:No; if your Honors please, I do not know the facts. I don't know if Russia did subscribe to it or not. I know that in the published edition that we have Russia does not appear as a signatory. There is nothing to indicate in the footnotes or any other printed material with reference to the Convention that she had been a signatory.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Well, without that concession, Dr. Bergold insists on his right to call a witness.\nMR. DENNEY:That is, of course, for Your Honors to determine, and I certainly am not prepared to concede at this time that she was a signatory and then withdrew. I can not see that that makes any difference.\nTHE PRESIDENT:In view of Dr. Bergold's contention of the act of withdrawing from the Geneva Convention, which is claimed to have been a codification of already existing international legal principles, the Court will permit the production of the witness.\nDR. BERGOLD:May it please the Tribunal, I undertake now to present the evidence for the Defense. The prosecution has painted the blackest possible picture of the man I am here to defend. It has pronounced a moral judgment on him, even for the period of his life, which, according to the Indictment, is not to be judged by this Tribunal.\nBecause of the great difference between the American and the German people I have no knowledge of whether such a method of prosecution is customary in the United States of America. The good principles of law which were practiced in Germany before 1933 provided that even the Counsel for the Prosecution should not reproach the defendant for anything that is not subject to examination by the Tribunal. The meaning of this is that the Defense Counsel also should be in a position to express his views with regard to these charges. This, according to my opinion, seems to be a fair principle.\nTherefore, if it please the Tribunal, it shall be my aim in the course of my submission of evidence to prove by witnesses who have been approved and by the defendant himself that the charges made by the Prosecution are incorrect, and I shall aim to prove that also for such charges that are not contained in the Indictment.", "speakers": [ "MR. DENNEY", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 604, "page_number": "495", "date": "27 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-27", "text": "Erhard Milch has never in his life been a traitor, as a person or in his profession, not even at the end of National Socialist rule when he himself was threatened in his life and in his honor. As a man of high intelligence and great talent or organization, he always tried to do his best for his people and for the world.\nTo say of him that ho misused his talent and devoted his life to a plan for conquest and enslavement of the world is to have a completely wrong conception of reality. He was never a militarist in the bad sense of the word, Never did he arm secretly before 1933 nor make use of the peaceful instrument of the commercial air fleet for any sinister purposes. He, the man who wanted to devote himself only to the tasks of peace, the man who in his capacity as Director of the German Lufthansa collaborated with many European air transport companies and who conceived this collaboration as almost a forerunner of a unified Europe, he, the man who in 1937 devoted all his efforts, together with a few wise and courageous statesmen, to the attempt to bring about a full understanding and a large scale collaboration between France, Belgium and Germany (unfortunately, the High Tribunal has not given me permission to furnish complete proof for this fact), he, Erhard Milch, truly never tried to enslave the world. If he had succeeded in his plans in 1937, then there would have be no 1938. And. all the more, there would not have been the horrible period of 1939 to 1945, the period in which the battle against intolerance became so hard and so complicated that we might think today that as in an Arabian tale, this spirit of intolerance has freed himself from the bottle and spread himself over so wide an area that, even today, it causes actions which one day must also be condemned by the just and the wise.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 605, "page_number": "496", "date": "27 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-27", "text": "I shall prove that from the moment when this man tried, in 1937, to achieve his plans for peace he lost the confidence of his superiors. He never belonged to the intimate circle in which his superiors confided, even less so after 1937. They employed him unwillingly, and only because they believed that they could not spare him because of his ability. It is cheap and easy to say now that this man should have denied his superiors the benefit of his talents. We shall prove that he tried to do so. But who can dare to judge with certainty what goes on in the heart of such a man who is terribly aware of what dangers threatened his people --- once the fateful step of starting the war had been taken? Neither did he want this step nor could he prevent it.\nShould he really have chosen the path of revolt, this man who was brought up in a world in which, for all ages, military obedience had been an inviolate law, this man who had a passionate love for his people? How many human beings, in all the countries, are capable of breaking the chains of their education and turn against the laws which have been inviolate for them ever since their childhood?\nThere is no punishable guilt, perhaps even no moral guilt in the fact that a man cannot free himself from the world of his education. Because it is the very essence of all education to give the man unbreakable laws and to create around him what philosophers call \"the environment proper to his own nature.\" Therefore, he has not made himself guilty by doing what his education and the conceptions of his environment made him call his duty, in a war which he did not want, which he tried to prevent; and the stopping of which he advised again and again after it had started. This duty, he felt, was to do his work and to prevent the worst which he anticipated; namely, the terrible devastation of his fatherland and its complete and helpless collapse.\nI shall prove that even after the war had broken out, as before, he always concerned himself with questions of defense only; that he wanted to strengthen the fighter force, a defensive weapon with which he wanted to prevent the doom of the German cities.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 606, "page_number": "497", "date": "27 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-27", "text": "Perhaps, one day, the necessity for this doom will be judged differently. I shall prove that he condemned the attack against Soviet Russia as folly, and that he tried to prevent it. I shall show that in the spring of 1943 he submitted to Hitler detailed proposals for an immediate termination of the war and that he told him without reserve that the war was lost.\nIf it is true that from that moment onward he made efforts again and again to strengthen the fighter force, and that he took part in the creation of the Fighter Staff, who can reproach him with the intention to prolong the war if it will be proved that he knew that the enemy airforces would make a desert of Germany? Was it inhuman that he tried to prevent this total destruction even if the war was lost? He alone could not end the war. But he could try to prevent the inferno in Germany from becoming full reality. What true lover of his own country in any part of the world would not make the same attempt? Never can he be considered guilty on account of that, and even less so because of the fact that in other countries also voices have arisen and still arise which say that during the destruction of Germany many a thing has happened which was not always compatible with military necessity.\nDespite the pains he took, his superiors mistrusted him so much that both Goering and Hitler contemplated to have him put out of the way.\nI shall show that he never endorsed the theory of the superman and of the master race; that he always remained humane and that he intervened on behalf of friends under disregard of his own security. He never was cruel. If may be that some of the minutes carry wild speeches about him which must strike your Honors who come from a different world and are used to different customs -- as terrible and incomprehensible. I shall prove to you that in the barracks yards, which made the first impress on the sensitive mind of young Milch, wild expressions were quite common and that in German barracks yards bombastic expressions were considered normal and truly militaristic style. Nobody in Germany did at any time take those expressions at face value. For this human element in partic ular, the old saying holds true that dogs which bark do not bite.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 607, "page_number": "498", "date": "27 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-27", "text": "This man, however, was all the more inclined to use these shocking expressions, because in a number of accidents he suffered severe concussions of the brain, as a result of which he was more susceptible to fits of anger than other people; all the more so, as he was overburdened with work and always frantic because time was too short. But witnesses will appear before this Tribunal who will confirm that no one in his surroundings took these fits of wrath, these crazy words, seriously; that these expressions never went further than the circle of his intimates, and that they were not brought into reality. His raving and yelling would make so little impression that when people around him noticed he was about to have another fit of rage, one would hear the familiar quotation: \"In a moment somebody will be hanged again and then nothing happens.\"\nI shall show that this man knew nothing at all of the many abominable happenings which occurred out in the country, sometimes committed by persons who were under his command, and that, for example, the connection with the experiments at Dachau were so remote and incidental that he could not even surmise what these men undertook to do. The sphere of his duties was so terrific, the burden of his work so great that he truly should have needed to be a superman if he were expected to have known all that which the Prosecution finds out today from records and from the examination of the offenders. It is appropriate to use a Latin quotation here with a little change: \"Quod est in actis, non semper est in munde.\" Not everything that the investigating mind uncovers at a later date and inter-connects, was so in actual fact. The poet says \"Easy for him to speak who speaks last.\" This man is charged with letting prisoners be a abused and killed. I shall prove that this was not so. I shall even prove that, for example, he did everything possible to protect so-called terror fliers from being lynched. He was a man who tried to attenuate verdicts pronounced by competent courts of justice, and who never favored death sentences.\nThe Prosecution charges him with the enslavement of the peoples of Europe.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 608, "page_number": "499", "date": "27 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-27", "text": "I shall prove that he never aspired to enslavement; that information on deportations and shanghaiing never reached him; and that, on the contrary, information reached him which was bound to confuse his judgment and which permitted him to engage in deeds which now are being considered as wrong. Up to this day the opinion still prevails that everybody in Germany knew everything about all the cruelties. Slowly, however, the recognition comes through that this is not correct. In the \"Neue Zeitung\", the official organ of the Military Government, a German anti-Fascist by the name of Arnold Weiss Ruethel, whose book on the concentration camps is considered noteworthy by the newspapers -- published an article \"On the Psychological Causes.\" There he states literally: \"One would have termed anybody who informed the public of such happenings a scoundrel of a lunatic. This also explains why people who did not see these things with their own eyes and suffered from them day after day, even today, still refuse to believe that they actually happened. Yes, to me too it seems today often a dream and impossible, when thinking back I try to persuade myself that they really happened, the fearful excesses to which I was a witness during my five years in the concentration camp.\" Thus writes, be it noted, a man who suffered for years in a concentration camp himself. It has been proved again and again that the most painstaking secrecy was maintained regarding the atrocities. This is no hollow talk. This is the truth. The actual perpetrators disassembled, denied, lied, in a way that could not have been surpassed in cunning. The documents show you, Honorable Judges, that it was forbidden for Rascher to make reports without Himmler's authorization. Himmler wanted to draw the veil of secrecy over everything. But even with a Hitler, Sauckel, for example, soft-pedalled all his doings in the procuring of foreign workers. Regarding this, I will submit evidence.\nI shall also show that the assignment of these workers was not a point in any program existing from the outset; that it was exclusively an emergency device which the exigencies of the war had forced upon Germany. So at least all this had to appear to him, the man who did not belong to the innermost circle. That he could not think otherwise will be demonstrated to the Court, to the Tribunal.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 609, "page_number": "500", "date": "27 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-27", "text": "It is misleading when the honorable representatives of the Prosecution in his opening speech points out that this man had more to do with the use of forced labor than any other man in Germany. The International Military Tribunal, in its judgment on Speer, whose position as no one in this Courtroom can doubt, was far more powerful and significant than that of this man here, has stated (Page 16,614 of the German Record): \"Speer's position was such that he did not have to deal directly with the atrocities and the carrying out of the forced labor program.\" On Page 16,598 of the German Record, the International Military Tribunal says: \"It is nevertheless established beyond all doubt that Sauckel had the over-all responsibility for the slave labor program.\" I shall offer evidence that Sauckel actually also had the sole power over the manner in which the people were recruited and brought to Germany, and over the urgent work for which they were required.\nThe Prosecution submitted much evidence in Document Books No. I A and I B which contain the speeches and decrees of all possible persons and offices in Germany and in the territories formerly occupied. In my submission, however, it never proved that the defendant knew of all these things, much less that he had anything to do with them. I shall prove that he knew nothing of all this and that it was all so far remote from his sphere of action, that, logically speaking and considering his numerous tasks, he could not even know of them.\nI ask permission to remark here that in cases of that kind it is perhaps after all not in keeping with the rules of true justice to charge one person with everything that happened somewhere and was committed by one person among a people of eighty million. In my opinion the concept of conspiracy is in such a case being inflated to the point of monstrosity. It was created for conditions of a narrower and smaller scope where it was within the framework of a man's possibilities to keep an over-all view of his associates and their deeds. But to extend the concept of conspiracy over an entire nation and, simultaneously, over numerous organizations with millions of members, that no longer can be commensurate with true justice.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 610, "page_number": "501", "date": "27 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-27", "text": "This would result in the creation of a conspirator to whom would be ascribed a God-like stature. That, however, would be a distortion of an intelligent legal thought.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 611, "page_number": "502", "date": "27 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-27", "text": "It must, therefore, be demanded that in the case of each document, of each act, with due consideration of the extent of his working sphere and, consequently, with due consideration for his working capacity, one should examine whether he could obtain knowledge thereof, whether he could humanly anticipate, examine them, and, by reason of his authority, could at all prevent them.\nFinally, I shall prove to you that the documents submitted to you as official documents are not exact, not reliable; that they never were examined by the defendant and his associates, and that they contain inaccuracies, distortions and wilfull deceptions.\nRegarding the powers and position held by the defendant, a number of witnesses and the defendant himself will attest that his powers were not so great nor so permanent as the Prosecution assumes.\nWe will show that while the Medical Inspector of the Luftwaffe was subordinate to him in his capacity of Inspector-General of the Luftwaffe, this subordination was a more formal than a practical one, that the staff of the Medical Service was not at all subordinate to him and that especially he did not have under his direction the DVL.\nWe shall further prove that even the Centrall Planning Board did not have the significance that the Prosecution assumes, that this agency was much more an advisory and information agency, that it was chiefly occupied with the allocation of raw materials and that only these decisions of the meetings were binding which were summarized in the so-called \"Results.\"\nFinally, we shall show that the defendant, it is true, was one of the founders of the Jaeger staff, but that he was not its Chief and that his importance in this commission was far less than it would appear on first consideration. The work of the Jaeger Staff and of the defendant was aimed solely at the protection of Germany against bombing attacks, and Milch very soon lost all influence in this Jaeger Staff.\nIn the presentation of all this evidence, I would ask the High Tribunal to have in mind one difficulty which particularly in this case is nearly insurmountable.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 612, "page_number": "503", "date": "27 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-27", "text": "The documents submitted by the Prosecution are only parts of a body of material the extent of which can be termed gigantic. When one considers that the Jaeger Staff for instance from the time of its establishment held daily meetings and that from those meetings only these few stenographic records of a few sessions have been submitted that appear in the document books of the Prosecution, then one realizes that one even five percent of the material pertaining to the Jaeger Staff has been submitted.\nSimilar, although perhaps not equally striking, is the situation with reference to the minutes of the Central Planning Board. All these documents which were not submitted are not accessible to me at all. Does not, however, justice demand that the material in its entirety should be available to the defense counsel for examination? Already it was possible for me to discover in the incriminating documents numerous passages which threw a different light on the indictment. Is it highly not probable then, that numerous other passages may be found in all of the other material likely to extenuate to a high degree the guilt of the defendant, or which, in any case, might show many things in a better light?\nIn an ordinary trial with a considerably narrower scope it is much easier for a defendant to conduct his defense than here where material of such volume is at hand, that even if he had the best of memories it would be impossible for him to point out to me, his counsel, where and what kind of exonerating material can be found. That simply surpasses the capacity of the human memory, of the human ability to think. In parsing I would say that probably in all of the armies which fought in this war the responsible men used strong language during meetings and discussions which, had they all gone down in records, would cause the milder ones of our present day to shake their head. The wrath, impatience, worry and the anguish because of damages sustained frequently lead the responsible persons to wild utterances. What counts is not whether such words were uttered but the deeds which came after such excitement dies away.\nThe Prosecution had many long months to prepare its case. We, the defendant and I received the real documents on the indictment only in January.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 613, "page_number": "504", "date": "27 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-27", "text": "It is beyond human capacity to examine everything within as short a period of time with the thoroughness which is necessary to assemble the required counter-evidence. The presentation of argument on the part of the defendant can, therefore, be but full of gaps.\nIt is particularly difficult in this case because within the short time available for the preparation it is impossible to study all the problems which are brought to light as a result of the Dachau experiments. This calls for special technical knowledge which a man such as the defendant, who never studied medicine, simply cannot possess. However, as this trial is held simultaneously with the trial on the Dachau experiments, the danger exists that the important and exonerating facts brought to light there, through the defendant experts and their well informed counsel, and which cannot be properly appraised in the present case and in this way, the cause of justice is endangered. All of this I merely say in order to ask Your Honors not to lose sight of these angles in judging this present case. Honorable Judges please bear that in mind, also when examining the documents which I shall submit and, giving ear to that extent to the voice of humanity and of justice lend your assistance to a man who, cut off so long and bitter a time from all his information and other aids to support his memory has been called upon to defend himself before you. If at any time the fundamental principle of penal justice, which exists since the days of the wise Romans, should find application \"In dubio pro reo\", in the case of doubt favor the accused, it should find strict application in this case. That is what I wanted to tell you as an introduction.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 614, "page_number": "505", "date": "27 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-27", "text": "May it please the Tribunal: I must now make application to you for a further recess, and please do not be alarmed, to until next Monday. This application is a matter of great distress to me, because I am also considerably interested in a speedy termination of the case at trial.\nDuring the past days, my associates and I have worked most strenuously, and we have made every effort to meet the deadline of today. However, it proved impossible. The volume of work is simply gigantic as it is a fact that in this present trial, the trial of Speer and of Sauckel, and the trial of the physicians, are being recapitulated. The material at hand is tremendous, and there is not the faintest chance for a careful preparation.\nTaking only the minutes of the Central Planning Board, the minutes of the Fuehrer Meetings, and of the Jaegerstab, they comprise about six stacks, measuring approximately a foot high. Nobody can carefully read this material in a week or ten days, and work on it.\nAs an addition to my other work, I merely was able to tackle this material by taking in with my eyes whole sections in one grasp. The strain to my eyes was such that at times it made me dizzy. It would be important for the trial to study these minutes carefully and, especially, to submit the text to a critical examination because after they had been written up nobody examined them and they contain inaccuracies. A critical examination of the text, however, might establish their lack of reliability; this, in any case, would make them of doubtful value as evidence.\nBut this material covers merely the minutes which the prosecution has submitted. There are additional volumes of minutes in the house here, which I found out one of these last days only, --by accident-- and I should like to examine them also. In that connection, I purposely make it a point to disregard all of the minutes which are still in the Documentation Center in Berlin. But even when taking merely the minutes used by the Prosecution, I lack two minutes on the Jaegerstab and also two minutes on the Central Planning Board, up to today.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 615, "page_number": "506", "date": "27 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-27", "text": "It would also be necessary to examine all the exonerating documents submitted by the counsel for Sauckel and Speer to see whether they can apply here.\nI also must report that of the witnesses granted to me only a few are available for me here. So far I was not able to speak to the witness Speer because the permission of the Control Council is still outstanding. This is one of the most important witnesses without whose statements it is altogether impossible to bring this trial to a conclusion.\nThe witnesses Vorwald and Hertel (not inferior to Speer in their importance as associates of many years' standing and as they are persons familiar with all the activities of the defendant), have not yet reached Nurnberg.\nNearly all of the other witnesses, who are not residents of Nurnberg, have also not yet arrived.\nIt goes without saying that with all these witnesses I must have thorough discussions because they will supply information of utmost importance and possibly additional proofs of decisive import.\nAnother great difficulty is inherent in the fact that on the point of the indictment which pertains to the charge that Milch caused the shooting or hanging of two prisoners, the Prosecution submitted as evidence merely one record, an utterance by Milch which the defendant is certain that it can be termed false. Consequently, I have initiated comprehensive searches throughout Germany which already have yielded partial results, but which not yet been concluded because unfortunately the time for such investigations has as yet been too short.\nI was not yet able to examine the physicians indicted in the Dachau trial, to obtain their objections as experts against the indictment. I was not yet able to speak to them because I could not do this until they were approved as witnesses and because they are in permanent demand by their own counsel for their own pending trials.\nIn this trial of the physicians objections are raised which possibly invalidate the entire indictment relative to the high altitude and freezing experiments, in the Spring and Summer of 1942.\nMilch is unable to supply me with any information on this because he understands nothing about it.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 616, "page_number": "507", "date": "27 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-27", "text": "In every country in the world a trial of the nature as this one would naturally be postponed until after conclusion of the trial of the physicians because quite obviously the decision in their case will establish a precedent for the present trial in a large degree.\nYour Honors, in addition to all of the above, I must discuss all of the submitted documents with my client and that work would call for a greater expenditure of time.\nEven with things following a normal course and with endeavors of reasonable proportions, all of these tasks would take up many weeks. Here I am expected to accomplish in a few weeks a piece of work which goes far, far beyond the strength of any person which not even a superman could accomplish.\nIt is not true to facts, however, that upon receipt of the indictment in November, I would have been given the time to prepare for the case. If Your Honors please, the indictment is so generally formulated that it was impossible for me and the defendant to recognize on what proofs and on which individual concrete events it was based. The leading men of the last era have talked so much in all these years; they have decreed so much that today, especially in view of the prolonged detention as prisoners, it is impossible for them to remember all they have said and all they have considered. From the very outset, however, I endeavored to obtain the Minutes. Despite all efforts, I did not receive them only since the early part of this month the information is being made available to us; only since submission of evidence by the Prosecution, do we at all know what-- in concrete terms-- the defendant is charged with, and only since then it was possible for me to engage in an orderly and appropriate proportion. In America a lawyer's rights are far more comprehensive than in Germany. He can call for witnesses, can ask for information. All of these things are prohibited to a lawyer in Germany. It also is true that since the collapse it is impossible to find a German witness who is willing to make statements unless reproaches can be leveled against him on the strength of written records. They are all afraid to make depositions in favor of the defendant because in certain localities such witnesses encounter difficulties from the population.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 617, "page_number": "508", "date": "27 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-27", "text": "Before the prosecution's evidence was submitted, I therefore, was altogether unable to do any practical work. In Germany, Your Honors, one is very well aware of the difficulties of an attorney. This accounts for the requirement of very old standing that after the indictment has been served, all of the files of the Prosecution must be made available to the defense counsel so that he can inform himself as to what the concrete charges are against the defendant, and to enable him to start with the work at once. Because it is aimed to avoid that a defendant be placed at a disadvantage compared with the Prosecution which always had the time for the preparation which it may need. That is a principle for fair treatment, which principle must not be violated unless conducting a trial against a defendant is to end in illegality. Your Honors, in the present situation it is still necessary for me to conduct a series of investigations. I must be given the opportunity to clarify further the case of the murder. In that connection I cannot even make full use of the assistance of my associates, because it already has been my experience that one refused to give the correct information to my assistants because only I, the actual defense counsel, enjoys confidence. Today, for instance, a man approached me in order to make a statement to me which he refused to make in front of my assistant.\nYour Honors, if a criminal case is at all expected to serve justice in any way whatsoever, there must be the endeavor to determine the objective truth. Since according to your system of law the Prosecution is merely concerned with presenting all that is incriminating - as explicitly stated by Justice Jackson of the International Military Tribunal in reply to one of my objections raised at the time, then I, the counsel, must also be given the time needed for the preparation which cannot be dispensed with whatever efforts I may make. These recent days many people in this courthouse building have confirmed my opinion that it is an impossibility to prepare this trial which calls for such volume of material in a few days. I simply cannot do it. Nobody in the world can do it. This would reduce the defense to a farce, unless I fulfill my duty completely.\nAll of the other defense counsels - in the trial before the International Military Tribunal as well as in trials of subsequent proceedings - have incomparably more time than I. In their case the material of the Prosecution is made available for many, many weeks.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 618, "page_number": "", "date": "27 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-27", "text": "There are many defendants. Consequently that means an appreciable gain of time for the defense, of which they can 508- A take full advantage.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 619, "page_number": "509", "date": "27 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-27", "text": "This is denied to me here. My case is a special one.\nI know that perhaps there are other reasons which will determine the decision of the Prosecution to bring the trial to a speedy conclusion. However I am of the opinion that is not admissible. Each trial is a world of its own. It must not be that consideration for other developments should forcibly bring about acceleration which will make a defense, a true defense, impossible. The prevention of an adequate defense is all over the world ground for attacking a verdict. No revision is in certain respects possible here. All the greater, however, is the duty for all of us to do everything, to eliminate every chance for a miscarriage of justice and to make his defense possible for the defendant in full measure.\nI declare that having a great practice of my own here in Nurnberg which I presently must neglect completely, I am therefore considerably anxious in getting out of this case quickly to keep down the loss arising therefrom to me. But never shall I trespass against my duty.\nHarrased by the pressure of time, the nightmare of my responsibility haunts me in my sleep at night. Your Honors, I plead with you, with all the force of that which is serious, do not misinterpret my position and do not reject my request. However bold it may seem, it is modest enough. Even with this additional adjournment I must draw on all the generosity of conduct of which I am capable, to check my doubts and to believe that I shall then conduct the defense adequately.\nMy application cannot ask less than that, however, or else my conscience will reproach me for the rest of my life.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Dr. Bergold, the Court understood that you had some documents to present this morning; is that true?", "speakers": [ "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 620, "page_number": "", "date": "27 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-27", "text": "DR. BERGOLD:I have arranged a document book which I have here; however, I want to prepare a second such book. If I present the documents today, they will not stand in proper perspective. I want to have them available in connection with the calling of my witnesses, so that they can be properly presented to the witnesses. If I present them separately as they are now, they will each demand a long commentary. Moreover, if we proceed to trial now, I can not proceed with the other work of which I have just spoken at length;\n509 - a I cannot call my witnesses, nor collect my data and affidavits, and they will be gone forever.", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 621, "page_number": "510", "date": "27 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-27", "text": "That is why I ask at this time that additional time be granted me. If your Honors will be cooperative with me now,-- and on the understanding that my witnesses can be produced -- I think that immediate matters can be proceeded with much more rapidly, later. In a trial in Germany, the Defence cannot call witnesses, that has to be done by the Tribunal. And, in the IMT the Tribunal, there, also, took it upon itself to call all of the witnesses; they took care of that matter; calling them by judges, from other countries, and they were brought to Nurnberg. I have not found time, nor have I been in a position, to do that. Since the witness TEICK, the medical officer for the Defendant is in the British Zone, in Berlin, and not here, he must be brought here and I have no power to do that; that has all to be done by others. I am powerless; I have applied to the SecretaryGeneral and he has so told me that he will do everything he can to assist me in getting the witnesses here, but still they are not here today.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Well, if you had been permitted the right to call a witness and you know that the witness is available you have the assurance that the witnesses will be produced when you need them, have you not?", "speakers": [ "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 622, "page_number": "511", "date": "27 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-27", "text": "DR. BERGOLD:Yes, to be sure.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Are you not assured then?\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes, but the witness should come as quickly as possible; Your Honor, I have to speak to him; I must see him here in the court him self so that I may ask him questions to be sure that when I question him he would not be able to answer; that would take an enormous amount of the court's time and, therefore, it is necessary that we have to speak to him in advance. As we learned in the IKT, the witness have to take time to come; unless I can get a chance to talk to the witnesses, as I say, it would take a great many days of time as well as the court's time.\nTHE PRESIDENT:You understand, of course, Dr. Bergold, that the prosecution is confronted with every much the same sort of difficulties as confront you, and even the prosecution cannot instantly produce a witness out of thin air, just because the prosecution wishes to call that witness; isn't that true, Dr. Bergold?\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes, Your Honor, that is true. I am simply drawing a picture of my dilemma, of my position; I am not drawing or making reproaches toward the court. All of my main witnesses -- none of them are here -- I have only a few of my minor witnesses available. During the last few days only a few of my witnesses arrived here. As I stated, I simply want to draw before the Tribunal a picture of the position in which I find myself and I assure, Your Honor, we are doing everything we can. We began to read the documents from the first trial; I took a first series of a lot of important facts; I require a new document book. Your Honors, it is really beyond my capacity within my time limit to do that. It so happens that the defendant knows absolutely nothing about medicine, and I myself know nothing.", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 623, "page_number": "512", "date": "27 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-27", "text": "The documents must be read; the objections which were raised, must be examined and only after we have done that, do we recognize what the issue is. It is impossible to attempt to carry on, to proceed with two trials at once.\nTHE PRESIDENT:I am going to ask you again, Dr. Bergold, whether or not you have some documents assembled that you are ready to present to the court this morning?\nDR. BERGOLD:Your Honor, I did have, and do not have some documents, but if I present them now I should be presenting them out of context and I do not wish to do that.\nTHE PRESIDENT:What do you mean \"out of context\"?\nDR. BERGOLD:These are documents which relate to business of the prosecution--which are to serve to eliminate exonerating statements of the witnesses and which are to present certain statements. If I present these documents now, I should be presenting them out of context; I don't wish to do that.\nTHE PRESIDENT:I think perhaps you underate the ability of the court to put them in their proper context.\nDR. BERGOLD:No, Your Honor, we are all human, and whatever is presented out of context, first of all an explanation is necessary.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Judicial experience enables one to assemble the various items of proof and put them in their proper pidgeonholes, even if they are not presented in logical order. I think we are quite capable of doing that, and if the documents which are ready, can be submitted, you can trust the court to put them in their proper environment, with testimony or other documents.\nDR. BERGOLD:I am afraid about it. Perhaps it may be possible so to do, but in so doing it might also lead to some rather absurd consequences. But I still need further time for my preparations.", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 624, "page_number": "513", "date": "27 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-27", "text": "I absolutely need this week for which I have asked. Whether I received it today or tomorrow really doesn't make much difference but I do need it. I assure you that I do not want to drag out this trial. The situation is such that it is really an enormous task. You, as Judges, are still in a somewhat more easy position that I am. You have the material submitted to you -- I must laboriously assemble it.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Well, the Court will take a few minutes to retire and consider your application.\nJUDGE MUSSMANO:Dr. Bergold, in your general remarks you made a comparison between the American and German method of preparation for a trial and you indicated that an American lawyer has a greater facility in seeking witnesses and in speaking with them, and then you said that a German lawyer is somewhat circumscribed in his method of approach.\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes.\nJUDGE MUSSMANO:Well, certainly you are not being denied an opportunity in this trial, are you, to speak with witnesses, to seek them out, to talk with them? Are you being ....\nDR. BERGOLD:That didn't come through entirely clearly - your remarks\nTHE PRESIDENT:Ask him the question again.\nJUDGE MUSSMANO:Are you being limited or circumscribed in any way in your efforts to seek witnesses, to speak with them, or to prepare them for presentation in court?\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes. In general, in Germany it is forbidden to speak to a witness before the trial. That is most unusual. The usual procedure is that it usually happens that the witness is approached here. However, that is not your concern, that concerns the Tribunal and so on. This is a difficulty that does stand in our way in Germany. In a German trial I would have made myself culpable if I spoke to a witness before the trial. I would be banned from the bar if I did that. This is the difference.\nJUDGE MUSSMANO:But you certainly understand that the Tribunal will allow you that liberty and will certainly protect you in any difficulties that might arise in your associations with your colleagues or with the German courts?", "speakers": [ "JUDGE MUSSMANO", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 625, "page_number": "514", "date": "27 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-27", "text": "DR. BERGOLD:Certainly I understand that. But the mentality of the witnesses who know this is, of course, very limited. However, I have no opportunity to question the witnesses myself. If I write to a witness that he should come he doesn't have to come and mostly usually he does not come because he is afraid of other people. That is the consequence of the moral collapse that has taken place in Germany. However, if the Tribunal does not bring the witness here for me I am helpless.\nJUDGE MUSSMANO:I merely wanted to assure you that the Tribunal will not hold you to any strict accountability in so far as the German rules are concerned.\nDR. BERGOLD:Thank you.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The Court will retire for just a few minutes to consider the application of the Counsel and will return to announce its decision.\n(A recess was taken.)\nTHE MARSHAL:The Tribunal is again in session.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Dr. Bergold, you have some apprehension that this Tribunal ....\nDR.BERGOLD: (interrupting): Excuse me. No interpreter.\nTHE PRESIDENT:You express some apprehension that this Tribunal will be unduly persuaded or influenced by some possible determination in Tribunal I. We want to assure you that our decision will be based entirely upon the testimony that we hear in this court room - entirely independent of any other determination.\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes, I understand that. But my argument runs along the following lines; In this first trial there are proofs being submitted which are not at my disposal because I cannot speak to those people who are suitable to submit exonerating material and who also would be suitable to make exonerating statements for this trial. That is my argument. That these exonerating evidences are not in a position to be submitted. In due course, because only in course of time it will be possible to submit them. My colleagues in the other case do not give them to me because they are jealous and because they want to submit the evidence themselves. I cannot learn them until after they have been submitted upstairs.", "speakers": [ "DR.", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "JUDGE MUSSMANO", "THE MARSHAL" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 626, "page_number": "515", "date": "27 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-27", "text": "The defendants upstairs also are not inclined to tell everything to me because they are afraid that the defense upstairs will be impeded. That is the difficulty and the anxiety I have, not that the high Tribunal will be swayed in some manner or other. That is not my fear, but only that exonerating materials will not be available to me because it is not being submitted upstairs and consequently will not be known to me. Milch does not understand anything and he cannot tell it to me. I do not understand anything about medicine either.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The consequence of your suggestion is that this trial be delayed until the conclusion of the testimony at least in Tribunal I?\nDR. BERGOLD:No. I only want to have time because much has been submitted already, at least some important things, I should like to submit. Not everything but some. Naturally, I cannot suspend the trial until the other one is finished. I understand that. But some of the important material is coming out now only because the defense is beginning in a few days and only then I'll learn it and I can submit it. Did I express myself intelligently?\nTHE PRESIDENT:We understand. The Court is going to insist that you present the documents which you have already assembled and which are translated through the diligent efforts of the Translation Division and are here before the Court. I want to assure you that the Court can properly allocate and separate these documents and attach them to their proper place in the chain of proof, especially with your help. I suggest that when a witness is called to whose testimony these documents pertain that a mere suggestion by you that the Court refer to Document such and such a number in connection with that witness' testimony will be sufficient for your protection. We're not a jury and we're not so easily confused perhaps by the complexities of proof as a jury might be, and with your skilled help I am sure we'll be able to keep the proof in order in our minds. If you will present the documents which you have available now the Court will then announce its decision as to your request for an adjournment until next Monday.\nDR. BERGOLD:Which decision, if the President please?", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 627, "page_number": "516", "date": "27 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-27", "text": "THE PRESIDENT:I'll state it differently. Please proceed now to offer the documents which you have in court.\nDR. BERGOLD:If the Tribunal please, I should like to submit an informal question.\nIn my document book there are a number of documents which I took from the documents submitted by the Prosecution. Inasmuch as these documents are in the possession of the Prosecution and in part have already been submitted I cannot submit them as evidence and I can only read from them. How, informally speaking, is the submission of evidence as such to take place? Will it be sufficient that I make reference to these documents which are in the possession of the Prosecution or do I have to obtain them from the Prosecution?\nTHE PRESIDENT:Mr. Denney, you might explain the Modus Operandi to Dr. Bergold.\nMR. DENNEY:If your Honors please, I am not sure that I understand what Dr. Bergold is referring to.\nDR. BERGOLD:The minutes of the Central Planning Board.\nMR. DENNEY:We have relied on certain extracts of certain Central Planning Board minutes. If what Dr. Bergold submits in this document book and at a later time comes from minutes which he have presented to the Court why then of course we see no reason for resubmitting the material which is already in evidence. However, if he is going to take other meetings or material from meetings which we have used but which material specifically has not been presented by us then I submit that he should prepare his documents just as we have and offer them in evidence in the usual way.\nTHE PRESIDENT:I think he is concerned with authenticating the documents. That is, with proving the identity of the documents. Is that right, Dr. Bergold?\nDR. BERGOLD:In the first place, that's right, and in the second place I do not receive these documents. They are not given to me. I am only permitted to read them. I merely may see them in the office of Lieutenant Garrett but I am not permitted to take them out. Consequently I cannot take them and submit them to Milch.", "speakers": [ "MR. DENNEY", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 628, "page_number": "517", "date": "27 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-27", "text": "THE PRESIDENT:Have you made copies of them?\nDR. BERGOLD:In my document book I do have copies.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Doesn't that answer it? The documents here before the Court are copies or originals now in the hands of the Prosecution. There is no question as to their authenticity - as to their identity.\nMR. DENNEY:In so far as I am concerned I haven't seen any of these he proposes to offer until this morning. I was just reading the index and it saysR-124which was taken from the minutes which we have submitted.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Every document bears the number given to it by the Prosecution?\nMR. DENNEY:On the ones which are here, Your Honor. There are some which do not have numbers. Pages 11, 13 and 16, for example, and Pages 1 and 2. I certainly want to cooperate with Dr. Bergold in every way I can. So far, except for the ones noted, there is certainly no objection to them. I won't know until I see them.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Well, let's go ahead. We'll assume that these documents are authentic. At least these are copies of authentic documents. If there arises any objection on that ground we'll hear it when it comes up.\nDR. BERGOLD:Thank you.\nI have read from my document book, page 6 of the German edition. I cannot yet say what page of the English edition it will be because the English translation was given to me only a few minutes before the opening of the session this morning. Consequently I could not make a comparison as yet.\nTHE PRESIDENT:If you will give us the document number we can find it.\nDR. BERGOLD:Page 6,R 124, \"Minutes of the Change of the Working Contract of 20 February 1942.\"\nTHE PRESIDENT:Let's give this an exhibit number.", "speakers": [ "MR. DENNEY", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 629, "page_number": "518", "date": "27 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-27", "text": "DR. BERGOLD:This is Exhibit Milch 1, Page 8 of the English Document Book. Berlin, 20 February 1942. Points of discussion on trip to Fuehrer Headquarters on 19 February 1942, from pages 7 and 8 of original. I want to show that the Defendant Milch endeavored to obtain for the foreign workers the best possible conditions, especially as regards their wage. It reads:\n\"\"Upon suggestion of Field Marshal Milch the Fuehrer determines that the six-month commitments for foreign workers must be dropped and that the contradictory tax regulations must be rescinded; on the contrary, agreements are to be made according to which in the case of employment of longer duration (exceeding six months) bonus payments of some kind will be made once, particularly as there will be the appropriate saving of the cost of travel back and forth.\"\nThis will show that when speaking of contracts, a contract generally is a voluntary agreement and not compulsory. Then I submit -\nTHE COURT:Just a moment. You may proceed.\nDR. BERGOLD:On the following page R124, the Fuehrer minutes on a suggestion made by Speer on the treatment of foreign workers, dated 8 January 1942, Exhibit No. 2, page 8 of the English Document Book. Berlin, 8 January 1943. Points of discussion from the Fuehrer Interview of 3, 4, 5 January 1943. On Page 16, Speer -- this was a meeting between Speer and the Fuehrer -\n\"The Fuehrer demands unequivocally that in no case must it be permitted that France be less burdened than Germany. Germany must sacrifice her blood for this war. We must demand of France that she contribute more fully economically than hitherto. Should any indication of resistance arise in the case of French labor employed, such labor will be deported if necessary as civilian internees. At the slightest attempt of sabotage the most rigorous measures must be taken. Softness of any kind, for humanitarian reasons, is out of place. The Fuehrer agrees with my suggestion,\" says Speer, \"that on all questions pertaining to the exploitation of the industrial power of France in behalf of armament, matters will be conducted directly by the Ministry for Armament and Munition.\"\nWhen it says in the case of resistance offered, deportation as civilian internees, that is to say that if there is any attempt made in France of armed resistance, then the people should be seized and deported as civilian internee This does not contradict the firm conviction which demands compliance with the orders given by the occupation power.", "speakers": [ "THE COURT", "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 630, "page_number": "519", "date": "27 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-27", "text": "The following document is Document 407 II PS, dated 10 March 1943 to the Fuehrer. Page 9 of the English document, Exhibit 3. I want to show by it that Sauckel left all agencies in ignorance and how he went ahead and used methods which were not proper. It is dated 10 March 1943, teletype.\n\"To the Fuehrer, Fuehrer's Headquarters, with the urgent request to be submitted to the Fuehrer in person immediately for a decision.\n\"Subject: Difficulties originating from drafted labor in former Soviet Territories.\n\"My Fuehrer, You may be assured that the labor assignment is being pushed by me with fanatical will but also with circumspection and with due consideration for economical and technical as well as human necessities and conditions \"Replacement for soldiers who will be relieved and the stockpiling of additional labor needed for the armament programs can and will be carried through, notwithstanding the fact that especially during the last two winter months the greatest difficulty had to be overcome.\nYet it was possible to make for January and February alone 258,000 foreign workers available to the war economy despite the fact that in the East transports practically ceased. The employment of German men and women is in full progress. Inasmuch as the difficulties of the winter months will now increasingly disappear and as preparations were made by me also the transports from the East can again be resumed in full measure. Although the yield of the registration and employment of German men and women is excellent, the employment of the strongest and most efficient foreigners who are used to work cannot be neglected.\n\"Unfortunately, some of the Commanders-in-Chief in the East have prohibited the compulsory enrolment of men and women in the conquered Soviet territories for -- as Gauleiter Koch informs me -- political reasons.\n\"My Fuehrer, in order to enable me to carry out my assignment, I ask that these orders be rescinded.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 631, "page_number": "520", "date": "27 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-27", "text": "I consider it entirely impossible that the population of former Soviet nationality could be accorded a greated measure of consideration than our German people on whom I have been forced to place very drastic measures. Should it no longer be possible to enforce the compulsion to work in the East, nor to draft labor, then the German war economy and agriculture will likewise be able no longer to fulfill their tasks in full measure.\n\"I myself am of the opinion that under no circumstances should the commanders of our armies give credence to the Bolshevist propaganda of atrocities and defamation. After all, it is to the interest of the generals themselves that replacements for the troops be made in opportune time.\n\"I take permission to point out that -- without wishing to discredit their best will -- it is impossible to put German women entirely inexperienced in work -- into the place of hundreds of thousands of excellent workers who now have to go to the front as soldiers. It must be possible for me to replace them with people from the Eastern territories.\n\"I myself report to you that all the members of foreign nations who are working with us are being satisfactorily treated according to human standards; tnat they are being treated correctly and fairly; they are being fed, housed, yes, even clothed. Because of my own experience in the service of foreign nations I am even bold enough to claim that never before have foreign workers been so decently treated anywhere in the world as is being done by the German people during this the hardest of all wars.\n\"I therefore ask you, my Fuehrer, to cancel orders which prevent the enrolment of foreign male and female workers and to kindly advise me whether my concept of the assignment as laid down herein still is correct.\n\"I ask your permission to report to you in person on several important points of the labor recruitment early next week, possibly on Tuesday.\n\"In lasting gratitude, loyalty and obedience, Fritz Sauckel.\"\nWhich proves that until March, 1943, he was the commander in charge of foreign labor and that it was Sauckel and he alone who demanded it because he was of the opinion that foreign people had to do and produce the same as the German people.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 632, "page_number": "521", "date": "27 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-27", "text": "It is further important that he didn't declare that to the Fuehrer only, but also to the Defendant Speer and the Defendant Milch, which the Defendant Speer later on will attest, that never were foreign workers treated so fairly by any other people. In other works, he lied to the men who were to work with him.\nI now turn to No.R-124, the Fuehrer minutes of September 14. This will be Exhibit No. 4, page No. 10 in this document book. I am reading figures 16 and 18 of the minutes.\n\"Fuehrer conference of 11/12 September 1943, from Page 7 of the original. Detleffson: 16) The Fuehrer brings up the subject of the Luftwaffe production and the discussions with Messerschmitt and he asks for my personal intervention with the Reich Marshal and Field Marshal Milch to cut down appreciably the construction of airplane types.\"\nThis is important because later the defendant will show that he encountered difficulties in the construction of fighters because the Fuehrer wanted to have bombers, while Milch wanted to have fighters for defensive protection of Germany.\n18) The Fuehrer is displeased that the long range flight of Messerschmitt planes has not yet been taken by the Luftwaffe -\nTHE COURT:Dr. Bergold, you did not read 17.\nDR. BERGOLD:No. I am omitting it because it is unimportant, just the connection between the two sections I gave in copying it.\n\"The Fuehrer is displeased that the long range flight of Messerschmitt planes has not yet been taken by the Luftwaffe. Messerschmitt is said to have been unable to obtain the support of aviation for it.\"\nThis again shows another attitude on the part of the Fuehrer. I am then omitting several exhibits, because I must prepare them. The next one is 124, minutes of the 11th meeting of Central Planning of 22 July 1942. It will be Exhibit No. 5, Page 15 of the English Document Book.", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD", "THE COURT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 633, "page_number": "522", "date": "27 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-27", "text": "THE PRESIDENT:The interpreter said \"June.\"\nDR. BERGOLD:IT is July, the seventh month.\n\"Safeguarding of Food Supplies:\n\"A net increase of one million foreign workers is anticipated. This figure has not been reached during the past months. Even if more than one million workers are brought here during the months to come, the limit of one million will never be exceeded due to continued losses. Food for this number of workers is guaranteed.\"\nThis proves obligations were fulfilled.\nThe next exhibit is on the following page. Here we have minutes of the 22nd meeting of Central Planning. It is dated November 2, 1942. It will be Exhibit Number 6. It is Page 16 of the English Document.\n\"Extract from the Stenographic Record of the 22nd Conference of the \"Central Planning\" concerning Assignment of Labor, Monday, 2 November 1942, 1200 o'clock in the Reich Ministry for Aviation.\n\"MILCH: In my opinion agriculture has to be provided with its changeover. If, theoretically, agriculture had been given 100,000 more men, there would be 100,000 fairly well-fed men, while those we get now, particularly the prisoners of war, are not exactly fit for work. If agriculture will get them in time, they will again be able to feed those people well. However, it will not be very happy about it.\"\nThis document shows that Milch took care and saw that the people who worked were properly fed. If they worked in agriculture, they would be better fed than the other people in Germany. Consequently, everybody in Germany went out to the country because they could get better food.\nThe next document will beR-124; minutes of a conference on 12 February 1943. This will be Exhibit Number 7.\nTHE PRESIDENT:What is the date of the meeting?\nDR. BERGOLD:It is the 32nd Conference. It is Page 16 of the English Document Book. It is Exhibit Number 7.\n\"Extract from the Stenographic Record of the 32nd Conference of the \"Central Planning\" of the Four-Year Plan.\"", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 634, "page_number": "523", "date": "27 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-27", "text": "I will turn now to the last paragraph of the original document.\n\"MILCH: Everybody sticks to his old methods until he is literally beaten away from them. However, one must not only beat, one must give advice too. They must be good experts who will tell people: You will do that this way or that; it is not necessary that you use just this sum. Who does such a thing will never give in and say I can do with less. Mining has been partly beaten into iron by saying we cannot give you anything but iron on account of the shortage of lumber.\"\nThis document shows that the Defendant liked to use strong language. It refers merely to the allocation. He speaks of \"beating\" figuratively. The High Tribunal will remember at one time he spoke of whips being used to force certain people to use suggested methods. That is not what he meant.\nThe next document is againR-124. These are the minutes of the 33rd Conference, 16 February 1943. This will be Exhibit Number 8. It is on Page 17 of the English Document Book.\n\"Extract from the Shorthand Report of the 33rd Conference of Central Planning, 16 February 1943. Page 16 of the original.\n\"SPEER: We are in complete agreement. You will not receive any list from us for this action, but the whole armament industry including the anticipated deliveries will be devoted to this action. The administration too must be served at the same time. But the authorities including Army, Air and Navy, shall not get a single person from the action. This must be adhered to. You know what the Reich Minister, Dr. Lammers, said: That he must therefore have some new women typists at the Reich Chancellery at once. That makes no sense.\n\"MILCH: Where France is concerned, there exists in France an industry which makes aircraft motors and parts, all complete. We have transferred there all the things which can be made there without endangering secrecy in any way. These are training aircraft, transport aircraft, etc. However, since we want to make the most of the production in other ways, we have moved away part of it to a large extent. As a whole, these things must be kept secret from the French, but in every entity subject to secrecy, there are only a few parts which are really secret.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 635, "page_number": "524", "date": "27 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-27", "text": "The bulk consists of other parts. These have also gone there to a great extent, just as we engaged aircraft builders in France to a great extent. We now currently have work waiting in France for several thousand aircraft builders. At the moment the industry working for us there needs, according to its claims, some 20m000 men, who are asked of us, in order to be able to keep to the program. The production is still far behind that which was agreed upon with you in the program. Whereas we in Germany fully carry out our program, only 30 per cent of it is carried out in France. In fact it has only begun to function in the last weeks and months after we have been more active there. In principle, we have excluded the State from this whole cooperation with industry and set the German firms to work with the French firms.\n\"Sponsor firms have been appointed so as to make the affair operate. This system is not yet fully completed but has been favorably initiated everywhere and indeed brings quite other returns in some extent. The reproach is always made to us that nearly all Europe is at our disposal. The production we draw from France, with the exception of motor cars, is minute as regards the Army. The whole French production potential is not yet fully exploited by us or only to a quite small proportion.\n\"If it were necessary for us to produce in France, because in Germany the capacity, space, machine tools, etc., which are not convenient for removal are lacking, if the accommodation of the people were not so difficult, etc., we would, in fact, be reduced to the point of taking everything to Germany and have the work done here. But this would entail too great a decrease in the production in our own country, not to mention the reluctance of the people. We came to an agreement yesterday. I am very thankful that this matter is now, thanks to yourself, Gauleiter Sauckel, together with Gen. v. d. Heyde and Colonel Brueckner, to be settled on the spot. It is difficult to induce Frenchmen to come over here. An official agency alone cannot either appreciate or realize this, only a sponsoring firm can realize it. I therefore suggest that sponsor firms be called upon to cooperate, precisely because in France the sub-contract system is very widespread.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 636, "page_number": "525", "date": "27 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-27", "text": "\"Behind the factory which actually organized the thing, there are other factories which belong to the semi-finished goods and preparatory industry. This industry, however, can be supervised by our sponsor industries. We should have to assign to our people the task of investigating the individual firms and find out which people are working for our program. All others we annex ourselves. When we have got hold of them and annex them in German industry, that is, only those people who are really necessary to us, it will be possible to utilize them in the right way. The proportion of specialist workers there is higher than in this country. We have indeed drained a certain number of them into our factories last year because they were the easiest to get. The Frenchmen must work with more specialists than the Russian and the Russian must have still more specialists than the American In America they can place any simpleton before any machine. He will put it right in a flash. Only the installation requires a specialist. The man need only have arms; a head is a superfluous luxury. In France the system is quite different. The Frenchman has adapted himself to it and has always indeed had unemployment. A labor organization as we conceive does not exist. With the same number of Frenchmen and all other installations, facilities, etc., being the same, one will only obtain, as compared with German personnel half at the most or only one-third of the production, even if the personnel have all good will and zeal. It is a matter of system. This system we cannot simply alter, neither can the sponsor firms, but we must try in this way to obtain from them to a certain extent the additional resources which we need for our industry and armament. By proceeding thus, we can put things right. I believe the sponsor firms have an obvious interest in this. If industry has too many specialist workers there working for us, let us draw upon them ourselves, because we are suffering a great shortage of them.\n\"This resource should be left to our firms after this extensive drain on specialist workers has been suffered. We want to raise our armament. Now to another point. I have today ordered in my jurisdiction that an extensive action should take place; today, when we are counting upon obtaining a great number of women in virtue of the obligatory service whose age limit we hope to see extended to 55.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 637, "page_number": "526", "date": "27 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-27", "text": "The British have extended obligatory service to the age of 65. The additional ten years are a trifle exaggerated. Women are not able to go the machines immediately and perform heavy work. The few days that are necessary for them to instruct the personnel are immaterial. We can still spare that much time if it were not that I would convey to the population an impress to the following effect: Now that we have reported for work, it is months before we are called up.\n\"I have ordered, within my jurisdiction, that the woman should as much as possible be employed in offices where men are now to be found, for instances, in the wages offices, etc. In these, women and elderly men can be easily trained, as they will be able to do without further difficulty. In this way, men in the commercial offices, etc., should be released for the accountancy offices and similar offices. This involves, in the case of industry, 20,000 individuals and there are other branches besides. It amounts to quite a considerable number consisting solely of people who, in view of the war economy, are unfortunately necessary now. These men must now be placed at our machines insofar as they are not drafted, that is to say, they are not soldiers. These people are more likely to be able to render good service at the machines or in the factories than the women now assigned, insofar as women are disposed to go to the machines. Of course, there will be women who have done such work before and who are willing to turn to this work, but who have not reported for work so far because they have not found it necessary to work for a living on account of the dole. Where the assistance of women is concerned, I should suggest, that, in the process of the action, only those women be assigned for whome work at the machine is not involved if a man is thereby released.\n\"TIMM: The danger lies in this that the draftees were partly to be released without replacement having actually been forthcoming.\n\"FIELD MARSHAL MILCH: That is quite another matter. When female auxiliaries of the Signal Corps are assigned, it is not additionally, but only in the proportion that soldiers are released thereby. There are indeed several 100,000 men in the signal corps of the army and air force. In our department, 250 to 300,000 have been such. Whether there are many now, I do not know.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 638, "page_number": "527", "date": "27 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-27", "text": "They are all young men fit for combat. I have always campaigned against this and said: One ought to assign women preferably so as to release soldiers. If that is done now, it will really release a large number, it does not matter whether for the workshop or of the front.\n\"Of course there is a front somewhere in the East too. This front will be maintained for a certain time. The only useful thing the Russians will inherit from the territories evacuated by us will be the people. It might be better in principle to withdraw the population as far as 100 km behind the front. The whole civilian population will move back to 100 kilometers behind the front. Nobody will now be assigned to ditchdigging.\n\"TIMM: We tried to withdraw the population of Kharkow. 90,000 to 120,000 people were required by the fortress commandant of Kharkow for trench work so that in some cases we had to organize whole convoys.\n\"WEGER: Successful blowing-up operations were even carried out.\n\"FIELD MARSHAL MILCH: But that is done by the engineer corps. There is definitely no more hope that more prisoners of war will come from the East.\nSAUCKEL:The prisoners taken are used there.", "speakers": [ "SAUCKEL" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 639, "page_number": "528", "date": "27 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-27", "text": "DR. BERGOLD:Just a minute, I am short one page from my old document book. From one of the pages I am in the wrong place, and I shall read the one page which was supposed to be right. Consequently that is the reason why you lost the context before. It was my mistake. I am sorry. Now I'll have to cover it. Before that it said on the one page--two pages before that one I just read in the same number of the same document, and the same interlineation. That is on page 18 of the Document Book. I will read:\n\"With the same number of Frenchmen and all other installations, facilities, etc. being the same, one will only obtain, as compared with German personnel, half at the most or only one-third of the production, even if the personnel have all good will and zeal. It is a matter of system. This system we can not simply alter, neither can the sponsor firms, but we must try in this way to obtain from them to a certain extent the additional resources which we need for our industry and armament. By proceeding thus, we can put things right. I believe the sponsor firms have an obvious interest in this. If industry has too many specialist workers there working for us, lot us draw upon them ourselves because we are suffering a great shortage of them. This resource should be left to our firms after this extensive drain on specialist workers has been suffered. We want to raise our armament. Now to another point.\nI have today ordered in my jurisdiction that an extensive action should take place; today, when we are counting upon obtaining a great number of women in virtue of the obligatory service whose age limit we hope to see extended to 55. The British have extended obligatory service to the age of 65. The additional 10 years are a trifle exaggerated. Women are not able to go to the machines immediately and perform heavy work. The few days that are necessary for them to instruct the personnel are immaterial. We can still spare that much time if it were not that it would convey to the population an impression to the following effect: Now that we have reported for work, it is months before we are called up. I have ordered, within my jurisdiction, that the women should as much as possible be employed in offices where men are now to be found, for instance in the wages offices, etc. In these, women and elderly men can be easily trained, as they will be able to do without further difficulty.", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 640, "page_number": "529", "date": "27 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-27", "text": "In this way, men in the commercial offices, etc. should be released for the accountancy offices and similar offices. This involves, in the case of industry, over 20,000 individuals, and there are other branches besides. It amounts to quite a considerable number consisting solely of people who, in view of the war economy, are unfortunately necessary now. These men must now be placed in our machines insofar as they are not drafted, that is, to say, not soldiers. These people are more likely to be able to render good service at the machines, or in the factories than the women now assigned, insofar as women are disposed to go to the machines. Of course, there will be women who have done such work before, and who are now willing to turn to this work, but who have not reported for work so far because they have not found it necessary to work for a living on account of the dole. Where the assignment of women is concerned, I should suggest that, in the process of the action, only these women be assigned for whom work at the machine is not involved, if a man is thereby released.\"\nNow I can make a jump to the page I had read once before. Yes, and I shall then skip one page and continue, \"We have made the request--,\" that is on page 20 in the Document Book:\n\"We have made the request that there should be a certain percentage of Russians with us in the anti-aircraft artillery. 50,000 altogether are expected. 30,000 are already there as gunners. It is a funny thing that Russians must operate the guns. The other 20,000 are still missing. I received a letter from the Supreme Command of the Army yesterday saying: we can no longer turn over a single one, we have too few ourselves. So this thing will not turn out so successfully for us.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 641, "page_number": "530", "date": "27 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-27", "text": "SPEER:It would be advisable to make the draft of women somewhat cleaner in the press.\nFIELD MARSHAL MILCH:That would primarily have to be placed in the foreground. In this respect the question is whether I will receive the accounts from our industry in time. The matter is bound to be settled some time. There will be no deception. People who want to deceive, also deceive now, whether they have this personnel or not, whether their accounts are up to date or not. The other people are decent. The mass has not engaged in deception. Whether we are a little backward in checking prices will not be very important. The most important thing is to work. He know what is produced abroad, having now received their figures. The Russian actually makes 2000 aircraft a month in the way of front-line craft. This figure is far higher than ours. This must not be forgotten. We must get to the assembly line and produce quite other figures.\"\nThis document is to show that Field Marshal Milch was very much endeavoring to leave the French workers in France with their own firms, and to transfer actually only their orders, which the International Military Tribunal has counted as exonerating circumstances in the case of Speer, as that was productive work; so far as Milch is concerned we want to point out that he did the very same thing for the aircraft industry, and this is the basis upon which he endorsed a reasonable arrangement. It also shows that the man always had in mind the reasonable economical thing. Finally the document proves that individual remarks which in themselves were of no significance, flowers of speech which did not lead to any result, as for instance, in the getting of continuances, which is shown by the last words of Speer and of Milch in the marginal note. I will also show that the word used was not at all what it was implied to be, but that it was Goering, and that because he had difficulties with Goering the minutes were changed. In turn again I show this passage was taken out from the document because at that time serious difficulties arose between him and Goering.", "speakers": [ "FIELD MARSHAL MILCH", "SPEER" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 642, "page_number": "531", "date": "27 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-27", "text": "I now turn to page 124, Page 54 of the original, 2nd paragraph. Extract of Shorthand report of the 39th Meeting of the Central Planning Board on the subject Food Situation and Armament Industry held on Friday 23 April 1943, 9:30 AM, Exhibit No. 9, and at page 20a of the English Document Book. I read, \"Extract of Shorthand Report of the 38th meeting of the Central Planning Board on the subject Food Situation and Armament Industry held on Friday 23 April 1943, 9:30 AM in the Festival Barack near the zoo, Jebenstrasse, second paragraph, page 54, reading: page 20b of the Document Book:\n\"MILCH: I am convinced that there are more Russian prisoners of war. At that time 4,000,000 were captured. A large part of them died, however, the number of those who are still living is higher than we are told now. We reckon here with hundred thousand Russian prisoners of wan in the agriculture. Altogether, we have 300,000 of them in the Reich. During the first World War, I had 200 Italian prisoners of war with me. These prisoners were to be turned over however, we kept ours by reporting them dead in order to keep them. And these people also wanted to stay, in spite of the fact that we told them that they would be reported dead even to their families. We dragged these prisoners around with us till the end of the war. This proves that the assertions that have been made regarding the number of employed Russians arc wrong.\nKEHRL:If the food supplies of the labor brought in from abroad are taken from the German rations then, while we think that we are very rich for having these people, the German rations are in reality reduced, and the decrease in the working capacity of our own workers does more harm than the good done my the new people. This proves that they were not starved but were fed at the expense of the German people.\nSPEER:But from the figures of this incoming labor we have to deduct those who leave the country because of expired foreign agreements, and the others which we lose because of cases of death or illness. On the whole the increase of labor in our total professional war economy is not at all so very important.", "speakers": [ "KEHRL", "SPEER" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 643, "page_number": "532", "date": "27 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-27", "text": "This again proves that the agreements were made voluntarily, because they were terminated and the workers had to return home.\n\"(interpolation: The more labor we fetch from the East, the more this total figure will increase.)\nBACKE:But there is a limit, too, in the number of men we can absorb. At that time we were told that one million was to be taken into the country, from the East. Now we have already got several millions.\nMILCH:You can not count that way. Before all these measures in the second year of the war, the Air Force had 1.8 million men and today it has less than two million. The whole air armament which is a considerable part of the total war armament, that is, in the course of the war, or in the last 2½ years of the war, has not even increased by 10 percent. In reality the total increase in this field amounts to about 125,000 to 150,000 men. We are always looking for those people. That is our main problem.\"\nThis man told of this agreement, the fact all were voluntary, because they were issued in accordance with that and they are no longer valid. The figures were raised more as pertains to the reference of Backe, \"But there is a limit, too, in the number of men we can absorb. At that time we were told that one million workers be taken into the country from the East. Now we have already got severed millions.\"\nIf the Court please, this is supposed to show the demands were so gigantic that the aircraft production was started early: because one of the most important things was obtained, and people were not drafted at random.\nI now pass to our page 124, a document in the Speer minutes of the 50th Conference of the Central Planning meeting held 22 November 1943. This will be Exhibit No. 10, and at page 21 of the English Document Book. \"Extract of the Shorthand Record of the Central Planning concerning Energy on 22 November 1943\", page 63 of the original:", "speakers": [ "MILCH", "BACKE" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 644, "page_number": "", "date": "27 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-27", "text": "\"KEHRL: I would appreciate our discussing the boiler-wagon question first. Here I have a request to the Field Marshal. We have asked the Luftwaffe to deliver boiler-wagons to us. They gave us 1000 wagons last year. They now have given us 600 wagons. We had requested 2000. Now it is practically thus that everything we could not transport resulted in the total 532-a loss for the effective fuel-supply.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 645, "page_number": "533", "date": "27 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-27", "text": "During the month of November 23 we had, considering what we could have had, a deficit of approximately 100 to 120,000 tons -- really a disastrous loss. Could you not, Field Marshal, take an appropriate decision\"?\nIt continues at --\nFIELD MARSHAL MILCH:An enormous amount of barrels are being made.\nSPEER:The number of 250,000 will diminish in the future because of lack of tin material.\nFIELD MARSHAL MILCH:During the winter no barrel will be returned. They will disappear in the stoves.\nBIESE:As long as the war will last in the East, the largest amount of the new production of barrels will go to the front.\nFIELD MARSHAL MILCH:I see that also in our place. We manufacture smaller barrels, and use an enormous amount. One should say to the soldiers: \"If you do not return the barrels, you shall not get any fuel any more.\"\nI went to show by this that, while we was opposed to the number, he did not reply in that there were so many meetings, and so much was talked about -- there were so many proposals, that he did not do anything about it. I want also to show how much he was ready at first, to make statements, in his proposal that the soldiers were not to be given any more barrels; if they did not give back any barrels, they they were not to get the fuel any more. Nobody could reduce the consumption, but it showed that he made utterances which nobody seriously because in war time nobody can refuse the troops fuel which they need. But it was simply the nature of this man, to make exaggerated statements without meaning them seriously.\nI now come to the minutes, on page 124, meeting cf the 53rd Conference of the Central Planning. This is a long document, it is thirty-five pages long and before the recess I will say we will not finish.", "speakers": [ "BIESE", "SPEER", "FIELD MARSHAL MILCH" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 646, "page_number": "", "date": "27 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-27", "text": "However, I should like to read it in one stretch, so that the Tribunal might have an idea what was being discussed in one such meeting in the Central Planning Board, that one does not simply deal with the slave labor program but that it 533-a involves certain possible remarks at random.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 647, "page_number": "534", "date": "27 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-27", "text": "I would suggest now a recess so I may at this time be able to read it altogether after the recess.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The Tribunal plans to recess at 12:20 today in any event, and to resume the session at 2:30 P.M. If it will conform with your convenience we may recess now and resume at 2:30 this afternoon.\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes, very much so. Thank you.\nTHE MARSHAL:This Tribunal will recess until 2:30 this afternoon.\n(thereupon noon recess was taken to 1430 hours.)", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 648, "page_number": "535", "date": "27 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-27", "text": "(The hearing reconvened at 1430 hours, 27 January 1947.)\nBY DR. BERGOLD (Continued):\nMay it please the Tribunal, before I continue with the reading of my document, I should like to return to Exhibit No. 4, and ask you please to turn to it once more. This is number eighteen. After this meeting I discovered that the Chief of the Luftwaffe was to build so-called American bombers, which were to be built by Messerschmitt to bomb American cities, and in this case you can see what difficulty was encountered here by me. All of these documents I have been presenting to you, I have not been able to talk over with my client. I had to leave these documents at the Information Center, and then, according to my own judgment, I had to scrutinize these documents alone, without being able to turn to my client. I had to copy them, and it was only after they had been copied that the defendant could see them. You can readily see what sort of difficulty confronted me under such circumstances. The very first thing a defense lawyer should do is to show such documents to his client; that of course, I am not able to do. I simply want to point that out to you. Had I been able to take these documents from the Information Center, then I could have talked it over with my client immediately. However, I had to copy them, have them mimeographed, and only then could I talk them over with my client. That is merely an example of what I have to contend with.\nI will continue now with our page 124, the Minutes of the 53rd Conference, on 16 February, 1944. This will be Exhibit No. 11, This is a very extensive document. It is document of a meeting concerning labor employment. It is a meeting concerning labor employment on the basis of which in the year 1944 the allocation of labor requirements in the amount of four and a half million workers was published; and this document was shown to you by the Prosecution with the defendant's personal initials on it. You will see from this that the question of foreign workers occupies only a relatively small part of the total statements of this 53rd meeting, and that people always asked themselves whether these workers were really available or whether they were being deceived by Sauckel.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 649, "page_number": "", "date": "27 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-27", "text": "Permit me to begin now, extract from the Minutes of the 53rd Conference, on the 16th of February, 1944.\nPage 1 of the original:\nDR. JANICKE/C\n535 A", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 650, "page_number": "536", "date": "27 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-27", "text": "MILCH:Good day, gentlemen. We of the Central Planning, in conjunction with the GBA, should like to discuss in this circle of these most in need of manpower, the question how the personnel needs can be met in this year or in the next quarter. We are very thankful to the GBA for his work in this field and that he has given us the chance of talking it over among ourselves. I am particularly grateful for his preparation of the statistics which all you gentlemen have received and which Sauckel had managed to refuse at that time. That's the reason for our gratefulness.\nSo far as this material is concerned let me draw your attention to a few points.\nFirst, page 1: New Employment and Separations. In the four quarters here described, namely from the last quarter of 1942 to the third quarter of 1943, we had a demand for about 30 million workers, which was designated as requirement. This figure corresponds to the total number of all employed in Germany and, looking at it absolutely, we see that our needs represent something impossible. If, however, we examine it more closely we observe that the balance, that is, what was received in one quarter, was always carried forward for the next quarter. It is interesting that altogether 9,780,000 requests were made. Over against this stands a decrease through discharges, according to the compulsory labor registration statistics, of 6,800,000; so there accordingly remains a surplus of new employment of circa 3,000,000. But several things must still be deducted from this number; those that have died, total invalids, and various others. It would be interesting if later you, President Kehrl, would speak about this matter briefly.\nThe second page shows the allocations of labor forces made by the Labor Offices from 1 October 1942 until 1 October 1943. From it one sees that agriculture was well taken care of with 1,800,000, and, after armaments and war production, received the largest allocation of the total of 9,700,000.\nIt is remarkable that domestic services received the very large increase of 810,000.\nPage three, which shows the total balance of labor forces, makes clear that before the war we had a total number of 38,500,000 persons employed whereas we now have 36,000,000, that is about 2,600,000 less. This matter is also important for the Ministry of Agriculture in their consideration of the question how these workers are fed.", "speakers": [ "MILCH" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 651, "page_number": "537", "date": "27 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-27", "text": "Most interesting of all is the last number, namely, the number of employed females. Before the war there were 14,030,000; In May 1942 only 13,900,000. This number has now, 31 May 1943, again reached 14,270,000. This means that 240,000 German women have been willing to work more during the war than in peacetime. Included among these are still very many women working only half a day and very many working for the Wehrmacht. However, there has been a complete failure in the mobilization of German women for work and armament. We need only point out that the USA has 5,500,000 more women working than in peacetime, and that in England the situation is proportionately the same. You must indeed admit that the captured Russian officer is right, to whom opportunity was given to look around in Germany, and who answered, when he was asked what struck him most, that in Russia the war was being carried on by 100 per cent of the population, but in Germany not even by 40 per cent. Effort and work of a propagandistic nature has not been lacking; the fault therefore does not lie here. I believe that the volunteer method simply does not work here. In England an additional 250,000 women are being compulsorily inducted into war production. There, in other words, they have moved gradually from the mild to the compulsory method and the people accept it without question.\nKEHRL:In England, of 17,200,000 women between the ages of 14 and 65, 10,400,000 work, which is 61 per cent, work either a whole or half day; in Germany, of 31,000,000, 14,300,000 work, which is 46 per cent. In other words 15 per cent more women are employed in England.\nMILCH:Page 4 gives the statistics of the General Army Office on workers draft-deferred as essential; to be sure, as of 1 October 1943, these statistics have probably undergone essential changes in the meantime. The individual annual classes are of interest. Of the annual classes after 1901 only 3,400,000 are still to be regarded as draft-deferred as essential. Of these only circa 1,000,000 are in the armaments industry. Heavy employment of these draft-deferred as essential is to be found first of all in agriculture and also in the crafts, trades, transportation, and administration; and, of course, also in mining.\nKEHRL:A rather large part of those employed in administration are employed by the SS, because this includes the police and the Reich Labor Service.", "speakers": [ "KEHRL", "MILCH" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 652, "page_number": "538", "date": "27 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-27", "text": "GANZENMUELLER:In the transportation sector all these railroad workers are included who are employed in the occupied eastern and western territories and are to be regarded as soldiers.\nMILCH:According to that, the figures should be differentiated.\nBACKE:According to tho nearest statistics only 250,000 men of the annual classes 1906 and younger are classified as draft-deferred as essential.\nMILCH:I do not want to express any criticism of agriculture but merely elucidate the actual state of affairs. The Wehrmacht says that theoretically all who are mentioned on this page should become soldiers; but in reality a great part of them are already doing military service. Page 5 presents the national economic manpower balance, a very interesting comilation. The status as of 31 May 1939 is reckoned as 100. According to that, agriculture has remained at the same strenght, with 100 per cent. On the other hand, forestry and lumbering have declined as of 31 May 1943 to 81 percent.\nBACKE:In part, agriculture does some lumbering work, for instance in the transportation of lumber.\nMILCH:Of all the various departments, forestry has given up most for military service. Amazingly enough, armaments and war production have declined from 100 per cent to 89 per cent. At the same time, industry moved from 100 before the war to 91 in the middle of 1942, and to 101 in the middle of 1943. The handicrafts declined very radically, likewise the power-industry. Transportation rose from 100 to 109, because as you know, we have to provide transportation for the whole world.\n(GANZENMUELLER: The Russian railways are included in this.)\nMICH:Conditions in distribution, that is, trade, foreign trade, banks, and insurance, tho number sank from 100 to 67. Now, does this percentage represent the actual employment in these departments, or should not the personnel still be regarded as to high?\nNow come governmental and Wehrmacht administration Government administration sank from 100 to 89, but Wehrmacht administration rose from 100 to 213 %.\nBOSCH:This includes the female day labor, but not what belongs to the troops, nor the female anti-air-craft labor. On the other hand, those employed in administration are included. Nurses are not included.", "speakers": [ "MICH", "BACKE", "MILCH", "GANZENMUELLER", "BOSCH" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 653, "page_number": "539", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "MILCH:In other words, no staff personnel. Before the war the number of staffs was small, and communications ware taken care of mostly by men. During the war the number of staffs increased measurably. Nevertheless this question must be examined again. At the moment enormous transfers of personnel are taking place within the Wehrmacht. Thus the Luftwaffe has so far withdrawn 250,000 men, draft-deferred as essential, from its own supply of 1,800,000, and has mobilized them for infantry service at the fronts. Likewise, enormous numbers of staffs have been dissolved or are in the process of being dissolved. At the moment, 30 per cent of all our staffs are being dissolved. Moreover, there exists a basic order that every part not at the front must give up 25 per cent of its personnel far this purpose. The Ministry has been reduced to the peace-time status:", "speakers": [ "MILCH" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 654, "page_number": "540", "date": "27 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-27", "text": "Anyway, I have always considered a small staff good, and a good one as capable of working. The technical personnel is the heaviest burden on our administrative machinery. That is the armaments engineers and the architects. These are to be turned over, not to the front, but to industry where there is a lack of skilled personnel which can only be filled in this way. In six years if this trend continues; there won't be any more technical personnel at all.\n\"The next number; which I do not understand, is the medical service which has risen to 118% or 630,000 men. That must include the nurses.\n\"From the audience: Yes, everyone in the country who is in hospitals, etc.)\n\"Domestic servants are an interesting point, the number of whom has declined from 1,100,000 before the war only to 1,025,000 or in other words to 90%. It seems to me that this number is much too high, however. This still included 950,000 Germans and only the ridiculous remainder are foreign women.\n\"Page 6 shows the employment of women and only native German women. The calculation is based on the data of the Reich Statistics Office.\n\"There follow the figures according to the compilation. The number in Wehrmacht Administration has risen from 105 before the war to 500;000 on 31 May 1943; that is, 476%. Considerable amounts of manpower could still be mobilized from here for the armament industry and agriculture.\n\"Bosch: In East Prussia the number of those employed is only 110;000; in the Wehrmacht Administration it is 69,000.\n\"Mich: In transportation the number has risen from 100 to 350%, which is to be explained by the fact that very many men have been replaced by women.\n\"Kehrl: Despite the fact that work on the Reichsbahn is difficult, a greet number of women, thanks to correct propaganda, have applied for it.\n\"Ganzenmueller: That includes the women street car conductors. We have about 200,000 in the Reichsbahn itself.\n\"Mich: There is nothing to say about page 7, I to III. Then page 8 is interesting.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 655, "page_number": "541", "date": "27 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-27", "text": "The participation of Wehrmacht manufacture in armaments and war production. Of the 12,200,000 employed in industry, only 65% are engaged in Wehrmacht deliveries, and if the trades only 35% work for the Wehrmacht. If we take both of these together, only 55% in industry and the trades work for armaments. So the Russian was not so wrong wit his 40%.\n\"Now here is a compilation that shows the manpower balance for the first quarter of 1944; namely, the amounts of manpower and their distribution. Let me ask the GBA to elucidate the balance, so that those with requirements may be able to react to the figures.\n\"Berk: Let me first make a few remarks on page 3. According to it, the total manpower balance as of 31 May 1939 in 38,580,000 and as of 31 May 1943 is 35,900,000. This includes also those who are self-employed, whereas we otherwise give only the figures of those employed by others. The Field Marshal pointed out that the total number of persons employed has declined considerable, namely by nearly 3,000,000. It is to be noticed in this connection that since 31 May 1939, very considerable withdrawals have taken place, to- it, nearly 10,000,000. The supply of native Germans demonstrates that clearly; 38,280,000 as of 31 May 1939, as against 29, 730,000 now. It must be observed here that the total number of persons employed has not declined to the same extent as the new employment has.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 656, "page_number": "542", "date": "27 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-27", "text": "Actually it has, so far as persons employed by others are concerned, increased since the Plenipotentiary General began his activities, namely by circa 3,000,000.\n\"KEHRL: After one year of the plenipotentiary-general's activities we have an increase of 1,000,000; namely from 34,900,000 to 35,900,000.\"\nTHE INTERPRETER:Your Honor, there is a page in the English text that Dr. Bergold is not reading. He is now on Page 30 at the passage marked \"Milch\".\nDR. BERGOLD:I shall read what I did omit. This is on Page 29, in the middle.\n\"Kehrl: After one year of the Plenipotentiary-General's activities we have had an increase of l,000,000; namely, from 34,900,000 to 35,900,000.\n\"Bosch: On page 1 are to be found only the allocations by the GBA and the discharges according to the payroll statistics. There are still many goes in this. On page 3 we have the actual state of employment, so that here we find the clear balance of 1,000,000 plus. But it is not more.\n\"Berk: The manpower balance includes also those who are self-employed, and this is the reason for the erroneous picture. It is noteworthy that despite the considerable withdrawals the number of persons employed by others has increased through the very large accretion from foreign countries. Page 5, female employment, the comparison does not present a clear picture, since the main increase in female employment is not indicated here. The decree on mandatory registration which the GBA issued on 14 January on the basis of the Fuehrer's edict will not become practically effective before the months of June and July. 1,650,000 women have been added. This figure does not appear in the manpower balance. In the meantime some of the women have left, so that at the present moment the numerical balance is not entirely clear. To be sure, we have more precise figures, but I do not have them with me, because I was sent to this conference only at the last minute. As you know, the Fuehrer exercises for biological reasons the greatest restraint in this question of female employment. In addition, in sectors that are not definitely essential for the war, very essential decreases have taken place. The question of the domestic servants is being considered in detail in our office, namely with the fact in view that now, because of the bombing attacks, households have had to crowd together.", "speakers": [ "THE INTERPRETER", "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 657, "page_number": "543", "date": "27 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-27", "text": "At the proper time Gauleiter Sauckel will explain this himself.\nPage 1 does not present a clear picture insofar as it is stated in sections 2 and 3 that with the cooperation of the Employment Offices 9,780,000 are employed, and according to the compulsory labor registration statistics, 6,820,000 have been discharged, so that an excess of now employment of theoretically 2,960,000 has been calculated. Now, the Employment Offices do not play a part in every individual hiring or firing. Thus, for example, farm hands are taken on today and leave tomorrow. And again the comparison of these figures does not provide an unobjectionable picture of what really happens. Many persons are also transferred and discharged several times, for example the unloaders of freight, and they probably appear in these figures several times.\n\"Wilch: What I have said should not be construed as a criticism of the GBA's work; on the contrary, we are all grateful for what has been done. I consider the figures, incomplete as they may be, a great step forward in our discussions. The earlier statistics were even less precise and fewer in number, and because of this, criticism was expressed that was not based on facts.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 658, "page_number": "544", "date": "27 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-27", "text": "\"Our efforts are directed, in joint conferences with the GBA, toward limiting our demands to what is really necessary, in order to make it easier for the GBA, and indeed to make it possible at all, to fulfill them.\"\nTHE PRESIDENT:Dr. Bergold, may I interrupt please? This is a very long document.\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes.\nTHE PRESIDENT:What do you hope it will prove?\nDR. BERGOLD:I wish to prove through this, the way in which this very important work was carried out at these meetings. It has been established that the numbers are not correct because they did not include the fluctuations. This has a bearing on the question of whether or not any such enslavement would be carried on here. The Prosecution presented a pretty one-sided picture of the activity of the Defendant. We can achieve a clear picture only if we view the total picture of his activities. If individual pages are quoted, we cannot. These minutes demonstrate how these figures were tossed back and forth. I wish to establish, your Honors, that you must be presented with a complete picture of the manner in which these meetings functioned. These meetings were simply discussions and no more.\nTHE PRESIDENT:It is your point that even if forced labor were discussed, many other things were discussed at greater length?\nDR. BERGOLD:No. The total question of employment for Germany was discussed, not simply the employment of foreign labor. The employment of German labor was discussed to a much greater extent.\nTHE PRESIDENT:That is the point which I am making. Even though forced labor was discussed, it was only a part of the total problem of labor from all sources?\nDR. BERGOLD:One moment please; you will see from these minutes that these gentlemen were not concerned with forcing these people to work, but singly in finding out how many were needed and where they could be found. I shall later deal with the question of the extent to which the defendant was aware of whether or not they were brought in under compulsion. As far as speaking of foreign workers, they simply discussed what was absolutely necessary and what is not; there was no discussion of compulsory labor.", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 659, "page_number": "545", "date": "27 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-27", "text": "THE PRESIDENT:That is a good deal like claiming that two men who are planning to commit a robbery, they also discussed philosophy. Incidental subjects could be discussed which do not seen to be of any interest. The only question is whether they discussed anything criminal.\nDR. BERGOLD:You cannot decide whether it was a crime unless you have the total picture of the discussion. Then you can see what position the discussion of criminal activity occupied. The way this matter was presented by the prosecution was completely incorrect.\nJUDGE MUSSMANO:If I choose certain things from the total picture, I can create almost any impression I would like to create?\nTHE PRESIDENT:It is not a question of contents; it is a question of degree or proportion. Is that what you mean?\nDR. BERGOLD:Your Honors, to be sure, but I wish to point out of what slight importance those pages that the Prosecution emphasized occupied as a whole. They did not spend time discussing how they could compel people to work for them; but they said if they could not get along with the Germans solely, then they would make use of foreigners.\nJUDGE MUSSMANO:You are referring to one particular meeting. You are saying that at this particular meeting, the subject of slave labor was given very little prominence. That is one meeting. Do you intend to argue that this meeting is a pattern and typical of all meetings? Are you saying that this meeting is typical of all meetings?\nDR. BERGQLD:Yes. It is a typical example of all such meetings; only at a very few of these meetings did they discuss the employment of forced labor. I believe only two in tote. The second was the other one which we spoke of this morning in the year 1944.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Does the fact that an alleged criminal plan was only a small part of the total plan, make it any less criminal?\nDR. BERGOLD:Mr. President, I wish to prove that there was no discussion of any criminal plan. They simply said, \"We will get so and so many forces from Sauckel and we shall distribute then.\"", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGQLD", "JUDGE MUSSMANO", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 660, "page_number": "546", "date": "27 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-27", "text": "That is all that was said. It was simply a question of allocating the forces that were provided by Sauckel.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The Tribunal is supposed to give you every reasonable latitude. Probably you should be allowed to read the rest of this document. The inference to be drawn from it is not altogether persuasive.\nJUDGE MUSSMANO:Are you using up a great deal of time in the reading of this document to establish something which might be indicated just as well with a few short declarations as to what is contained in all these minutes?\nDR. BERGOLD:I asked this morning, Your Honor, that I be permitted to present my case in connection with my witnesses. I told you this morning, that if I did present it now, it would be torn from the context, and would be much more difficult for you to grasp. Everything that I am now saying will be illuminated by witnesses. That is what I suggested this morning in our discussion. I am quite aware that, at the moment, the reason I am pursuing this course, may not be entirely clear to the Tribunal. It is literally true that I am appearing to stand on one leg, so to speak.\nJUDGE MUSSMANO:The presence of the witnesses would not change the fact that you arc reading a document which may be of one hour's duration merely to state negatively that nothing criminal was taken up throughout that long meeting.\nDR. BERGOLD:Mr. President, the Prosecution also read a number of passages from this document. When this document is seen totally, these passages will take on a different meaning, not as terrible any more as when they are torn from the context. It was the Prosecution which laid such emphasis on this document. I shall make an effort to shorten my reading of it as much as possible.\nTHE PRESIDENT:In view of the fact that the Prosecution read from part of this document, the Tribunal is not disposed to prevent your reading the rest of it. What value it has, still remains to be determined.\nDR. BERGOLD:I will continue reading about six lines from the begin ning of Milch's speech on Page 30.", "speakers": [ "JUDGE MUSSMANO", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 661, "page_number": "547", "date": "27 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-27", "text": "\"Our efforts are directed, in joint conferences with the GBA, toward limiting our demands to what is really necessary, in order to make it easier for the GBA, and indeed to make it possible at all to fulfill them. We of the Central Planning cannot do that at all.\"\nThis alone, gentlemen, proves if I nay make a remark here that these men got together and said it was impossible to get an accurate estimate of the manpower needs by sampling a few large concerns; you can see with what sense of responsibility this was done. You also see from this statement that the recruitment and provision of these workers was not a matter to be taken up by the Central Planning but exclusively by GBA.\n\"It is regrettable that the figures are drawn up as of 31 May, and in certain fields, e.g. female employment, they present a false picture. When we receive the figures for 31 May 1944, the total number of female workers will again decline. We for our part, can only check on the figures through sample tests of individual large concerns. We did this in the Junkers-Konzern and have ascertained that it has not even been able to keep the women it had before the war. In other concerns, on the other hand, the number of women increased. Local conditions determine this to some extent. Actually, however, the number of women who are today available for the war economy is not up to the level of what other countries are accomplishing and what we also must accomplish. There are still reserves which Sauckel could still activate. I am thinking particularly of soldiers' wives, who receive an allotment and consequently are not interested in going to work. That is particularly relevant in agriculture.\"\nGentlemen, that proves that the large numbers Sauckel always claimed, and which were the basis for the judgment on slave labor, were not correct numbers. The Central Planning has ascertained that these numbers were fallacious.\nI now turn to Page 31, your Honor.\n\"MILCH: There is still another problem. Very many bombed out and evacuated women have streamed to country towns, and the question of how they can be drawn into employment has also not yet been settled. The relations between the evacuees and their hosts would be measurably improved if the country people see that the evacuees in the country are not just walking around in fur coats and lipstick, but are also doing something.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 662, "page_number": "548", "date": "27 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-27", "text": "No national community spirit will develop from the situation as it is now.\"\nI read that simply so you can see that Milch was concerned with how many Germans they could employ before they employed foreign labor. Their point of departure was not slave labor, but simply some way of meeting the extreme necessity for workers. He also tried, first of all, to find German workers to meet the requirements.\nNow I will turn to Page 33 of the English document.\n\"I don't think that makes any sense. Sixty thousand foreigners, who always entered agriculture seasonally, could be deducted from the 400,000. We should really have the people by the middle of March because otherwise the farmers won't plant potatoes if they don't know whether or not the potatoes will later be grubbed up and gathered. In the first quarter, we shall get back 200,000 men. But we have an agreement with forestry that certain contingents shall remain there longer so far as we don't need the people. So until 31 March we need 200,000 men. In other words, half of our requirement.\"\nYour Honors, you see foreign workers were always employed in Germany. Sixty thousand came into agriculture alone. This proves that the famous statistics of Sauckel, to which the Prosecution referred, namely that 200,000 or so were compelled to work, were an error. Sixty thousand always came to Germany voluntarily to work in agriculture. They were foreign workers.\nI continue reading:\n\"KEHRL: In our presentation of the figures we took our point of departure from the fact that in the first quarter the needs were covered by the people who were returning, so that, if agriculture gets back the 200,000 men and also the seasonal workers, there would be a need for the entire year of 150,000 men.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 663, "page_number": "549", "date": "27 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-27", "text": "\"BERK: So far as the Hungarians are concerned, other factors play a role. Previously they always arrived, so that we can count on their returning now as well in the same numbers. It is a question of foreign exchange and money. The exchange conditions in the Southeastern region are such that they offer no inducement for foreign workers to come to the Reich. Gauleiter Sauckel has brought up this question with Ribbentrop and asked him to examine the possibility of introducing a more favorable rate of exchange for those sending their wages home. This has not yet been settled.\"\nYour Honors, it was always said, Hungarians wore brought to Germany under compulsion. Here you can see that they came voluntarily. They were expected. There was only one difficulty, namely, how could they send their wages back to Hungary. That was the problem mentioned here. It occurred to no one that there should be compulsory or slave labor. All of this is to be seen from these pages I am reading in this document.\nI will read now from Page 16 of the original document, and Page 34 of the English copy. I will leave out the first two paragraphs.\n\"WAEGER: We have an immediate need of 544,000 men. This need was not just arrived at random, but was determined in agreement with the Employment Offices and armaments offices. Actually, we have received so far only an allotment in the month of January of 13,500 men.\" Your Honors, you can see from that, that the high numbers which are always mentioned like 4 million etc. etc. were nothing but wishful thinking. \"We had agreed with the GBA to place the red cards on another basis. There is no point in handing out 200 red cards when it is clear from the start that they cannot be filled. We had agreed on 27,000 red cards, which were given out for the month of January. But actually, only 13,500 came in for armaments. It is, of course, intolerable for the armaments industry if only half the red cards are covered. In addition, there is the following: according to the statements of the GBA a total of 160,000 have been assigned to industrial war production; but actually we have received only 13,500.\"\nAgain, Your Honor, you see what sort of numbers are being dealt with. They are purely fictitious numbers. Of course, if you add all these numbers together, you arrive at a large number. That figure is irrelevant.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 664, "page_number": "550", "date": "27 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-27", "text": "\"What is the reason for this? In my opinion, the reason is that all the transfers which the Ringe and committees made with us are designated by the GBA as actual allotments. I cannot accept this under my circumstances. That is not an allotment, but a transfer. I can only count on the labor forces which are actually newly allotted to me, either, as previously, the allotment of 100,000 men who are lent to us for a quarter year by agriculture, or in some other way-- men, in other words, who do not belong in the armaments sector. But if transfers take place from one armaments sector to another, that is never an allotment. I should be thankful if the GBA could see to it that a clear distinction is drawn here; for above all it must make a strange impression when the higher offices hear about it, to say; you received an allotment of 160,000 men, where as in reality, we only received 13,500. That would lead to our being told; you are completely saturated with workers in the armament industry and don't know what to do with your manpower. Your demands are altogether exaggerated. Moreover, the normal fluctuation has so far not been reduced. We calculate it at 200,000 men per month. That is an established concept, which so far has not been questioned.\n\"MILCH: They are included in the 544,000?\n\"WAEGER: Yes.\n\"BERK: Is that for the quarter year?\n\"WAEGER: No, right away.\n\"KEHRL: Assuming that get the 544,000 tomorrow morning, would you then need some more by 1 April?\n\"WAEGER: These are my immediate requirements, which I can make accommodate in February right away. It has been objected that if I got the 544,000 men, I could not accommodate them. But that is not true; we could take care of them somehow. The main thing is that I get them. But I am convinced that I shall not. I must report my requirements of men as they actually are, and, as I said, the number 544,000 was worked out in close cooperation with the Employment Offices.\n\"KEHRL: If we should say, for the sake of argument, that we were in a position to provide 544,000 men tomorrow morning, and you distribute them in accordance with the demands in question, what needs would there still be in your opinion, before 1 April; or would the requirements then have been covered until 1 April; it will still be three weeks, as you know, before they are assigned?", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 665, "page_number": "551", "date": "27 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-27", "text": "\"WAEGER: By no means. There remain only the month of March and the rest of February. I believe that by that time I shall need at least that many again. The monthly fluctuation alone is 200,000, which has to be covered somehow. Then the labor forces for agriculture disappear again, 100,000 men whom we received.\"\nYour Honors, you can see here how numbers were always dealt with, but really without any sound foundation for the manipulation of the numbers. The information was that it might be; however in reality, it was not.\nI continue on Page 19 of the original, but still on Page 35 of the English copy.\n\"BERK: I must take issue with what General Waeger has said. The immediate requirement of 540,000 is correct. Then a procedure for ascertaining the requirements was agreed on between us and the armaments Ministry, and these are figures which are jointly ascertained. But so far as the statements regarding the allotment on only 35,000 labor forces in January are concerned, it is impossible to regard only the newly assigned manpower as allotment. Otherwise, There should we be? You would have to say in each case: General, for practical purposes the 544,000 can only be covered by new manpower, or at least by manpower that comes from other sectors, by combing out commerce, etc. To be sure, a lack arises in another place. That is to be attributed, among other things, to the lack of raw materials, to a change in program, and to shifts within the industry from one sector to another. Obviously this process draws the people along with it. But that must indubitably be regarded as an allotment. I must here seriously dispute the figure 13,500.\"\nYou can see again such a number of workers were to be derived from German industry.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 666, "page_number": "", "date": "27 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-27", "text": "\"MILCH: You are absolutely right with the word \"allotment.\" The other is additional requirements. That is the number that Waeger wants, labor stocks, or whatever you want to call it. If we discriminate between the two, we are perfectly agreed. The allotments are a coverage of lacks that arises somewhere or other, though, to be sure, this coverage creates a now lack somewhere else. So far as that occurs within armaments itself, it must in turn be covered by allotments somehow. What we want to be able to say is: I need a labor stock of 540,000, and in addition, for the quarter, replacements for the normal fluctuation, which is given as 200,000 per month.\n\"WAEGER: The labor forces that have to be returned to agriculture, which disappear because their contracts are up.\n\"MILCH: Only that art is to be called fluctuation which actually leaves the armament sector as a whole, because of death, induction, termination of contracts with foreigners, etc.\n\"BERK: You think, Field Marshal, that these who change over from armaments to other sectors must also be considered as part of fluctuation?\n\"MILCH: As actual loss! The word \"fluctuation includes so many different processes that they cannot be covered by one word. General Waeger says: What you allot to me in this manner is not an increase for me; it is transferred from Plant A to Plant B and remains within my sector as a whole. But this too, is a sort of fluctuation. In the second place, I lose men because they are drafted, etc. These men should also be replaced. I believe that, the 200,000 men only come under the concept \"fluctuation,\" which was my second concept, not under the first, from Plant A to Plant B. Your allotments, Landrat, consist first of all in those who transfer from Plant A to Plant B, and secondly in those who leave the armaments sector altogether, either by separation from the industry altogether or by transferring to entirely different economic sectors. Over and above this, General Waeger says, he has new requirements, which he estimates at 544,000. In this way such enormous figures come about.\" 552 Here the large numbers spoken about are simply bookkeeping numbers.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 667, "page_number": "553", "date": "27 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-27", "text": "No one at the meeting understands how they could be accrued.\nWAEGER:The monthly fluctuation is actually included in the 544,000. But this is the amount which we can absorb in this month immediately, if they are assigned to us by the Central Planning.\"\nI will break off here and go to the bottom of Page 37.\n\"MILCH: Could not the Planning Office, the GBA, and you, General Waeger, clarify this question of the concepts that we must coin here, in order to make the situation clear, so that we can readily see what \"allotment\" is or \"additional requirements\" or \"labor stocks\" or \"fluctuation,\" etc.? If that is clarified, we have a firm basis for our discussions. I recall the conference with the Reich Marshal on the Obersalzberg, at which several ministers were present and which broke down and came to nothing because of such want of clearness. The statistics would have to be drawn up so as to show that such and such is coverage of missing labor supplies, and such and such is new labor stocks.\n\"BERK: Gauleiter Sauckel was induced by that well-known conference on the Obersalzberg to draw up statistics, beginning with 1 January, which precisely show the reasons for the fluctuation and are perfectly clearly broken down as to death, incapacitation, termination of contract, breach of contract, transfer, induction, etc.\n\"WILCH: The statistics would have to include the loafers, too.\n\"BERK: It will not be possible to determine that statistically.\" The word \"fluctuate\" is being brought in without any regard to the slacker. The word \"slacker\" was simply mentioned, and they said something had to be done about that. Then the matter was dropped. In other words, nothing happened.", "speakers": [ "WAEGER" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 668, "page_number": "554", "date": "27 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-27", "text": "DR. BERGOLD:They said something will have to be done about this, and the matter was dropped. In other words, nothing happened at all.\n\"MILCH: A list of these slackers should be given to Himmler. He would make them work all right. This is very important from the point of view of the people's education, and besides, it has an intimidating effect on others who would like to slack also.\nBERK:This point also will be cleared up by the statistics, which by the way, are already being kept, and which are adjusted with the Central Committee and the competent agency.\nKEHRL:By this improvement of the basic figures is restricted only to the decreases. A corresponding method should also be chosen for the allotments. I could imagine that actually figures and concepts are arrived at which all speak the same language.\nMILCH:It is important that these clear concepts be established, not only for us but also to the gentlemen higher up. I want to tear out by the roots the fluctuation, which in part is natural and in part bad. But we can only do that when we have absolutely clear conditions and figures. Therefore, my request is to consider loafing in the same way as illness, etc.\"\nYou see, the purpose of that question of this treaty was simply to have a true conception of the statistics, and it makes a striking or shocking statement of what had to be put on it, in order to find some way of encumbering the records statistically. Continuing:\n\"Gauleiter Sauckel is justly proud that his Gau Thuringia has a very low sickness rate. Sauckel had already worked on that in peacetime, and educated the people there accordingly. In other Gaus this question did not receive such attention. We must differentiate between Germans and foreigners, men and women. The reasons for the higher sickness rate should be examined. Perhaps the food supply has an unfavorable effect. In other localities perhaps the doctors are too lenient. They must receive the necessary instructions. In other places education through propaganda is necessary, so that the importance of this work is always demonstrated to the people. The Propaganda Ministry can help us especially here, and has already achieved great results wherever it took a hand.\"", "speakers": [ "KEHRL", "MILCH", "BERK", "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 669, "page_number": "555", "date": "27 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-27", "text": "The problem again is how he can keep the requirements at an economic level, and how can these people be fed, and so on.\nI'll skip again. Page 35 of the original, which is page 43 of the English Document Book:\n\"ALPERS: Especially in the rural districts we again and again experience the fact that in basic production, in agriculture and forestry, we are lacking everything. We have no boots for our people in the mountains. Without these boots the people are not in a position to work. On the other hand one sees repeatedly that large organizations, the Wehrmacht, Labor Service, OT, etc., are equipped with everything. We have no support in any way. I only wish to remind you that at Christmas for the first time the farmers received a liquor ration.\nMILCH:That is the same even in armaments. In one and the same plant, if a man works on armor he continually receives food packages; if he does twice as much work an airplanes, he receives nothing at all. What Hayler and Alpers say is absolutely correct. Such wishes are justified. All these questions should be compiled and brought to a reasonable denominator.\"\nYour Honor may concede that the defendant Milch tried again and again to do the very best he could for the workers. He is not a strain -- or strict slave driver.\nTHE PRESIDENT:We will take a short recess, Dr. Bergold.\nTHE MARSHAL:This Tribunal will recess fifteen minutes.\n(Recess)", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "MILCH", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 670, "page_number": "556", "date": "27 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-27", "text": "DR. BERGOLD:If it please the tribunal, I continue on page 47 of the original, page 43 of the English document book:\n\"Milch: That does not prevent us from combining all these matters here. The question of what demands can later be filled depends on what can be produced at all. Your work here is the most difficult, namely, the procurement of the people. That is more difficult that the distribution later on. If one knows what he gets, then he knows also what he can distribute. These various things must be regulated from a central viewpoint. We need everything. We can not wage a war without armament, nor without soldiers. So along that line, an adjustment has to be made later in accordance with the Fuehrer Order. We do not need to do that today.\"\nGentlemen, this shows you the meaning of the meeting. One wanted to determine what it looked like. It all depended on what was really coming up. This was talk back and forth, but no decisions were taken. There was only an attempt to have a clarification so as to know in one's own mind and to make the decision as to what the situation was like.\nI then continue on the following page, Page 48 of tho original, Page 45 of the English document book:\n\"Doubts have already been expressed that the high requirements announced can be covered in that amount. Before I give you a survey of the quota which can be expected in the first quarter, perhaps also in the entire year, I ask you to permit me to present our plans briefly. The starting point for it was a conference with the Fuehrer on 4 January 1944. In this conference the demands were established at a total of 4,050,000. It was determined as fellows:--\"\nYour Honors, that is the figure which is contained in the compilations that we saw in the document shown in the photostatic copy.\n\"It was determined as follows:\n\"2,500,000 were intended for the maintenance of the employment stability and for covering the fluctuations. 1,300,000 was given by Reich Minister Speer as the requirement of armaments. This amounts to 3,800,000. 250,000 are expected by the Fuehrer for industrial relocation and for the construction of air raid shelters and air raid protection measures. This amounts to a total of 4,050,000. This figure is also established in the transcript which Reich Minister Lammers has sent to the departments concerned.\"", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 671, "page_number": "557", "date": "27 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-27", "text": "Your Honors, you Trill see that for air armament nothing is provided. Speer made specific demands as replacements for fluctuations, which means that they were to be shifted from one work to another.\nI skip several things and continue on page 53 of the original, page 59 of the German, page 48 of the English document book, in the second paragraph \"a further problem\":\n\"A further problem, which was already discussed, is the question of the increasing production in the factories themselves, especially the reduction of loafing and illness, etc. The proclamation was issued to the managers, which was signed by the Staatssekretaer and Minister Speer, and in which the managers were asked to direct their attention to this question. Experience lias shown -- I remind you of Siemens -- that a very well organized health system in the plant itself can considerably reduce the sickness rate. At Siemens the sickness rate decreased by 3 per cent. Figured in terms of workers, this amounts to very high number.\n\"Kehrl: Successful measures in this field would contribute enormously to covering the shortage. Three per cent are 300,000 men.\"\nYour Honors, you will see that the figures which are discussed do not state that it is tried to bring up slave labor. It is merely a discussion of what can be done to increase the output of the available manpower. It is stated that by immediate treatment of the sick by competent physicians, 300,000 men who otherwise would be out could be restored to industry.\" I continue:\n\"Berk: This question is of enormous importance. We need here the energetic support of the plants themselves. The same applies to the problem of production increase. We are convinced that there are still enormous production reserves in the plants. It is a fact that some people are not fully utilized. The reason for that may be that they had to wait for a program, that the raw material did not arrive on time, or that the system of the shifting of contracts was not clear. There are workers idle. That is where the well known communications and letters from foreign workers originate, saying that they are standing around without work. Or German women report this who bring work along to the factories. I do not wish to generalize from that in any way, but these things come to us. The whole question was brought up by gentlemen who are outside of our plants.\n\"The question of re-examining the plants has been raised. Minister Speer has given this his attention in order to mobilize production.\"", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 672, "page_number": "558", "date": "27 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-27", "text": "Your Honors, foreign workers write, \"We have too little work. We are standing around idle. If these people had been feeling badly or if they had felt themselves to be slaves, they would not have written \"What's the matter, we have no work.\" Only satisfied people can do that, in my opinion\nTHE PRESIDENT:Is it possible that they were German workers?\nDR. BERGOLD:No, \"That is where the well known communications and letters from foreign workers originate.\"\nTHE PRESIDENT:It speaks of German women.\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes, German women, but in principle of foreign workers. \"This is the origin of the well known communications from foreign workers who say that they are standing around without work.\" German women say something different. They report about their own work which they bring into their work as, for instance, knitting, darning etc. That is what they are speaking about.\nWilch continues:\n\"I believe that something should finally be done now for a fair piecework wage. This means that the man, if he really produces more, can also make more money, without the National Trustee of Labor (Treuhaender der Arbeit) saying that it is impossible.\n\"Berk: This is a problem of the so-called wage-regulating measures.\"\nI skip the rest of the paragraph and continue with Milch:\n\"let us assume that a worker produces today 100 pieces an hour at such and such a wage. We want him to produce approximately 115 to 120 pieces for the same wage.", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 673, "page_number": "559", "date": "27 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-27", "text": "He should, however, be able to produce 130 to 140 pieces, if he goes to it. Then he should receive more. That is apparently, first of all, a wage ceiling for the worker. But if through agreement, training, or education, we can influence the worker by saying to him, 'You can easily make more money; your increased production now is due to improved machines and organization; that is no incentive for you, because piece work wage rate was wrong; if you have the right one, you can exceed it', then we can achieve something by giving his personal willingness the additional inducement of a wage increase.\"\nYou will see that in such a way it is being tried to increase the work by granting higher wages.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 674, "page_number": "560", "date": "27 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-27", "text": "On the next page, I continue, page 58 of the original, 50 of the English Document, the third paragraph before the last one:\n\"WILCH: We can then deduct from the 2,000,000 approximately 1,000,000 as a fictitious fluctuation.\n\"KEHRL: I would suggest that we discuss this question in the smaller circle. The difference between real and fictitious fluctuation is very decisive in the figures which were stated by the various sources. Even if we do not know the extent of the figures, we shall gradually, by means of the new statistics, arrive at a knowledge of it.\n\"MILCH: Let us leave the question open, how high it is. But even today we must reduce by a considerable amount the figures, in the amount of 3,500,000 which were indicated for the second to fourth quarters. The exact number would be determined. We would then arrive at a total of approximately 3,600,000. These would actually be men who would have to be brought into the work process from the homeland and abroad, who actually have to be introduced anew.\n\"(BERK: That is how Gauleiter SAUCKEL sees it!) But the transfers between the plants were not included. This would also facilitate the task of bringing them in.\"\nHe declared that this number was still too high. I continue on page 59 of the original, the same page, page 51 of the English document:\n\"KEHRL: I have asked some friends of mine to establish in their plants, when preparing the statistics, how much was real and how much fictitious fluctuation with them in the last year. Yesterday or the day before yesterday I received a statement from a longer concern. According to that, the fictitious fluctuation in the last year was, with the great majority of the plants, in accordance with what was estimated here. The fictitious fluctuation, no doubt, is also larger in industry than in transportation and agriculture. It is different in the individual groups.\n\"MILCH: That is the point which caused all the misunderstandings. Sauckel said, 'I brought you eight million people.' We asked, \"Where are they?", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 675, "page_number": "561", "date": "27 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-27", "text": "', because we always figure the entire personnel of the plants. The statistics of the employment offices are important but not relevant for these figures.\"\nHere, the defense establishes these figures which were mentioned there; they are all erroneously given by ----- (Kehrl?) It is continued:\n\"BERK: The coverage of the fluctuation is received by us as a requirement. Therefore the coverage is an allotment.\n\"WAEGER: Not for industry. Of what use is it if it is assigned on paper and figured as an allotment?\n\"MILCH: It is really ah allotment. Assume, for instance, that a factory has 100,000 men on the first of January. On 1 July the factory has 98,000 men. For us that is a minus of 2,000. In spite of that there can have been allotments from 20,000 to 30,000 through the real and fictitious fluctuation. You say now, 'I allocated to you for this plant 30,000 men.' That is perfectly correct. We say, 'We did not get them.' That is wrong. We only know we went down from 100,000 to $8,000. That means we lost 2,000. We take only the balance, whereas you take the individual transactions. If this is once formulated correctly, wonderful clarity results.\"\nThis is due to the fact because the people are constantly being shifted from one factory to another one. All these fluctuations are not covered by actual figures. They arc only figures for statistical reasons. I continue. I'm skipping something. On page 61 of the original, page 32 of the English:\n\"WAEGER: I still want to mention the complaints which wore made because cf the letters of the foreigners. It has been said that workers were being hoarded in industry. We were very grateful that the GBA turns those matters over to us. \"With regard to the aviation industry, we did the following: Field Marshal Milch gave us permission for a Luftwaffe officer to take part in it. There were furthermore a representative of the GBA and a representative of the Ruestungsdienststelle. We made a lightening-like inspection of the factory, The received permission to talk to the individual people who said that this factory was hoarding men. It appeared that every thing was subjective opinion and that it was not true.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 676, "page_number": "562", "date": "27 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-27", "text": "If, for instance, a worker wrote that he had steal around and had had no work. That was the case on three days because the supply of raw material did not arrive because air raid damage occurred and because the feeder industry could not deliver the material on time. Such cases were used by these people and, in fact, they are people who want to go home. We had twenty cases investigated. It turned cut that it was not the ill-will of the workers. There was, in fact, something in it, but it lay in another field.\n\"MILCH: Those are still the mild cases. Most of the cases which I have to investigate are such that the person concerned is dissatisfied with his rating and treatment, that he says that to take revenge. He writes to any befriended man of the party or to anybody else nothing at all is done here, there is no organization. There is loafing. I can see at once what the plant has produced, with how many workers and with what means it has worked. In such eases it always turns out that the person concerned only wants to cause trouble for his foreman or plant engineer.\n\"BERK: I did not make any reproach but have only shown the problem.\n\"WAEGER: However, you have expressed the opinion that output reserves which are not being utilized are still present there.\n\"MILCH: Let us say honestly, that is the case everywhere because it is not possible at all to make use of people to the largest possible extent. The leading industrial personnel is lacking for the best personnel we had has been drafted to the Wehrmacht to a very large extent. Certainly a big mess will fellow. And certainly there should be a possibility of proceeding differently, that is, if at any time somebody engaged in the work should complain -\nMR. DENNEY:If Your Honor please, we're not getting anything in the English.\nDR. BERGOLD:Your Honor, I just noticed that the translation, for which I am not responsible, would make of certain passages of my original -- . Evidently that, happened in the Translation Division. They were very pressed for time.", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 677, "page_number": "563", "date": "27 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-27", "text": "Perhaps I do not know how I can take care of it technically, because I can't tell the Translation Department how to do their work.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Mr. Denney, do you raise any objections to this untranslated portion being read?\nMR. DENNEY:If Your Honor please, I have no objections to the reading of the untranslated portion, if we can got a translation from the interpreters as ho gives it and if at a later time Dr. Bergold Trill give us a certified translation from the Translation Department.\nTHE PRESIDENT:How much of this material is there?\nMR. DENNEY:About 15 lines.", "speakers": [ "MR. DENNEY", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 678, "page_number": "564", "date": "27 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-27", "text": "DR.BERG0LD: Your Honor, it is not entirely one page.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Go ahead ad and read it.\nDR.BERGOLD: \"Consequently it is not possible to exploit every foreigner entirely\" (reading from \"about 15 lines of untranslated portion\" previously referred to).\nMR. DENNEY:Your Honor, it isn't coning through -\nDR.BERGOLD: \"- I too am in favor of human rights, but we must have moans of acting against foreigners who show passive resistance.\" This has already been read to the Tribunal, but I just want to get it into the context.\n\"In the case of a plant foreman touching a prisoner of war and slapping his face, however, a terrible rumpus is raised immediately. The man is put in prison. There are a groat number of people in Germany who believe it is their principal duty to stand up for human rights Either than for the war production. With this I do not agree. But when a Frenchman declares: \"You boches will all be hanged\", then the plant foreman is first taken off the payroll, and when he then says: \"I'm going to slap him in the face\", that's his doom. There is no protection for him, only for the poor guy who has made that statement. I have told my engineers; \"If you don't slap a man like that, I'm going to punish you. The more you do in this regard, the more I'll praise you. You will not be punished, I can assure you of that.\" This has not yet become generally known. But I want to see the one whom I catch, because I an able to take care of anyone who wishes to be caught by me. When the little plant boss does this, he is put in the Concentration Camp or he faces removal of the prisoners of war. In one case two Russian officers stole a car and started out in it. They tried to escape. I have immediately ordered the hanging of the men. They have been hanged or shot yesterday, I left that up to the SS. I was said to have hanged them in full view of time others. In the end, there always fellows a big mess and there is sure to be somebody who exerts his influence for the PW's. At any rate, if we had better losing personnel and a better coordination, we would be a.t once in a. position to produce mere, particularly if the regulations directed against malingerers were made more rigid.\n\"BERK: At first , one would theoretically divide the four million into four quarters.", "speakers": [ "DR.", "MR. DENNEY", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 679, "page_number": "", "date": "27 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-27", "text": "Then one million would fall to the first quarter. Of course, this cannot be. The program was not decided on until January. Quite a number of measures are necessary in order to get it started. The first quarter will be the most difficult. Nevertheless, I believe I am in a position to say, with certain reservations, that for February and March together we can count upon a figure of about 500,000.\"\nCertainly there would have to be somebody who would have to stand up for human rights. If this man had not done it himself, he certainly would not have spoken of it. But ho spoke of this natter where the fear of his own religion interfered and ho made a statement on that and it was said in Germany ho criticized it in strong language. Certainly it would be followed by dismissal because he had been warned by the Fuehrer not to say anything against the Fuehrer. Illogical, because another sentence would have followed \"We would have been immediately in a position to produce better -- stick together to make it all one... hold ...\"\nEvidently the minutes are contradictory, not clear, and were subsequently corrected. Later - I am trying to do it, I hope to be able to do so; however, I am 564 A offering these documents to give you a clear picture of this case and hope to be able to show for certain that the decision in this case was not made by the defendant but by the Fuehrer himself without the defendant's knowing anything about it; on the contrary I will show that he had trouble, and because he was afraid of the consequences he had the record changed; but, considering the entire document, one sees that something is wrong with the thing; it is just like an Arabian erratic block in a meadow in spring.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 680, "page_number": "565", "date": "27 January 1947", "date_iso": "1947-01-27", "text": "Your Honors, I will have to road the exhibit which refers to the Central Planning Board. I now pass it up as Exhibit No. 12 and the Organization Plan at the beginning of my book, page two of your copy. I shall pass on the photostat of this speech as an original. It is dated when Speer was not yet in the Armament, placing orders. It shows the real spirit of this man:\n(Reads) You will see how kind this man acted solely in the interest of collaboration. This is not the way a slave driver acts or speaks; rather it is an equal speaking to equals and striving for good neighbor collaboration.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Dr. Bergold, the Tribunal is convinced your request for an adjournment is a reasonable one. The Court will, therefore, be in recess until next Monday, February 3rd, at 9:30 AM.\nDR. BERGOLD:I thank your Honors for your groat understanding.\nTHE MARSHAL:The Tribunal is in recess until 0930 hours, February 3, 1947.", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 681, "page_number": "566", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the Matter of the United States of American, against Erhard Milch, defendant, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 3 February, 1947, Justice Toms, presiding.\nTHE MARSHAL:The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal No. 2. The Military Tribunal No. 2 is now in session. God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal. There will be order in the Court.\nTHE PRESIDENT:You may proceed.\nDR. BERGOLD:May it please the Tribunal, for the time being I would like to read from Exhibit No. 11 of my document book. Another passage I would like to read when last Monday I skipped certain parts for the Tribunal It's on page 26 of the original and Exhibit No. 11. It's on page 50 of the German document book.\nJUDGE PHILLIPS:What page in the American document book?\nDR. BERGOLD:Also page 50 in the American Document book. That is page 26 of the original concerning certain statements made by Milch. That is, concerning the terms \"shirker.\" \"Milch: That is not the way I meant that. By \"shirker\" I mean a man who on the first of March signs a contract with Junkers, does not work there, then loses his job on the first of April, signs another contract with a different firm, does not work there for about 14 days, then he becomes sick or reports sick for the rest of the month and does not show up at all and sometimes he is in a bad mood so the factory says 'get the pig out'. Such a man under such circumstances will appear 12 times a year. Those are the people I call \"shirker\". Not the good house-father who has to take care of his house.\" What I mean by that, he is referring to people whose homes have been damaged by bombs. I shall continue. \"We are taking care of all of those matters as soon as possible.\" I shall close this quotation. And now I would like to introduce as Exhibit No. 12NOKW-337, on page 57 of the German document book. I think it's also on page 67 of the English document book. This concerns the shorthand report concerning the Jaegerstab meeting of the 6 March 1944. in the Reich Aviation Ministry.", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "JUDGE PHILLIPS", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 682, "page_number": "567", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "THE PRESIDENT:We havn't found it in the American book yet.\nDR. BERGOLD:That's page 65, your Honor. It can be found in the index. It comes after Exhibit No. 11, after the last number I-124.\nTHE PRESIDENT:This is the meeting of the 6th of March?\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes, sir.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The document on page 65 is the meeting of the 25th of April.\nDR. BERGOLD:No, sir. It's the 6th of March. It's page 67 of the German document book.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Page 54 of the American document book.\nDR. BERGOLD:Thank you. I shall begin now. \"I see a great many unknown faces and I do not know what business all of these gentlemen have here. I suggest that a check be made at the door and that the showing of passes be mandatory. Otherwise there is danger that other people may sneak in here. I demand therefore stricter control under all circumstances. Furthermore I would ask that the gentlemen are present at meetings only as long and no longer as their business makes this necessary. I would therefore request that the gentlemen in question report his presence and says, I have only a few matters of general interest. These things could then be taken up first and that would settle that and the man could leave. We only want one gentleman for one subject, not a whole bunch of them.\"\nMay it please the Tribunal, I introduce that in order to show that the Jaegerstab meetings not always prove who was there at a certain given time and those meetings changed so that as far as the defendant Milch is mentioned, this does not prove he was there ail of the time. I shall continue:\nOn page 11 of the German original: \"Saur: Does the term \"construction company\" exist at all? I think it does exist. Diesing: We have construction companies with the Luftwaffe. Among them masons, slaters, window fitters etc. That is how we arrived at the term \"construction company.\" We cannot again withdraw the construction companies which we have taken from Berlin.", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 683, "page_number": "568", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "For each building site we need approximately 100 skilled people, this on the basis of a fixed distribution key and we do not know where t o get them.\"\nThere was introduced by the prosecution and also presented an exhibit from this Jaegerstab conference where the term \"construction company\" was mentioned in such a way, those were companies of concentration camp inmates. This explains the term \"construction\" company clearly. I shall continue:\nPage 18 of the German original: \"Milch: Now we come to the question of foreign exchange. Here the Fuehrer has announced his consent that the requests of the Slovaks to purchase anti aircraft guns, etc. be complied with. Saur has reported orally how many anti aircraft guns have actually been finished and how far we have exceeded the program. This is a good and acceptable method for us.\"\nThis passage proves that the Slovaks and their government who had been sent to Germany in order to create foreign exchange, Slovak could buy anti-aircraft guns from Germany. The Slovaks were not slaves.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 684, "page_number": "569", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "I shall then continue and go to the next exhibit, Exhibit No. 13, that isNOKW 336, the Jaegerstab meeting of the 17th of March 1944. That is on page 56 of the English document book. Did Your Honors find the passage?\nShorthand report concerning the fighter staff conference presided over by General Field Marshal Milch on Friday, the 17th of March 1944, at eleven o'clock at the Reich Air Ministry. Rage 8 of the original, the last part of it.\n\"Stobbe-Detleffsen\"--this man was the chief of the construction department in the Speer Ministry, in the remarmament ministry-- \"I want to raise the question as to how far we have gotten with the two engineering constructions planned for the works. The one is a construction scheme at Otmershausen, the second the construction at Kaufring, originally small-scale constructions. They were cancelled and I was informed that the manufacturing firm for Ottmers hausen has not been determined yet. But we need the producing firm if we want to develop this plan. It was also said that Kaufring had become doubtful once more. I want to stress the fact that we must at any rate be clear about the manufacturing firm for both works. Otherwise, delays will be as far-reaching as we have experienced them during the last months. Now the question arises: Perhaps one construction should go to Junkers or to Central Germany or to this firm or the other. This is not the way to get results with the firms. I have not yet received official information and my attitude is that I need works at Ottmersheusen and another at Kaufring, but I shall be glad to be otherwise informed.\n\"Milch: You are right. This must be decided at once. We have promised Daimler-Benz at the time that the destination would be told him on the 13th. It was not told him. The whole matter has not been cleared up to now.\n\"Saur: On our last inspection tour we gained the impression that the time had come to get a clear view on the following points: What have we ordered on the whole of final evacuation space, on how many did we start, what dates have we fixed, what orders remain? I am under the impression that we do two things separately, which ought to be done together. We have, of course, at every plant with very few exceptions determined also together with phase I, the decentralization above ground, also phase II, the transfer underground, at least in broad outlines.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 685, "page_number": "570", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "Now come the two large scale constructions. They have in the meantime been definitely ordered by the Fuehrer for a minimum space of 600,000 sqm each. Since we are not in position, first of all because of our program and then again on account of supplies, to build two new works independent of the total number of works already planned, with a capacity of 800,000 sqm, (that means from 2,000 to 3,000 to 4,000 airplanes each) we have to get clear on phase 3 or 4 if we term the present stage phase 1, decentralization phase 2, the evacuation underground now carried out with single buildings phase 3 and those large scale constructions phase 4. It is therefore very difficult to decide today where the two large scale constructions should go to when one does not even know the following: What is being done in the two big projects, who is doing it, and whose means will be converted into the big construction projects according to plan? It seems evident that the big construction projects in the form which we have now secured within the Fighter Staff can be finished in an incredibly short time. But to obtain tool-making machinery of recent origin within this limit of time for such large scale projects is impossible.\n\"Milch: It is not necessary, either.\n\"Saur continues: Therefore this planning of large scale projects is to be planned under no circumstances as a clear phase 4, that is, independent of phase 3, but within the framework of phase 3. That means either a series of minor scale projects up to 100,000 some are eliminated or we have find another approach to these problems. I have, therefore, arrived at the conviction to approach things perhaps from two different angles. We had the impression in the Erla district that the conditions there were rather favorable and that one could perhaps make this Erla district, which, is some distance from the parent concern, one of the pillars of the large scale project A and that one could in this way first carry out a decentralized evacuation of Erla, but would then have the first large enterprise complete under shelter. According to my opinion, the second thing could be measured, however with great difficulty.\" That is not quite clear in the original.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 686, "page_number": "571", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "\"I am not quite clear on that point and shall therefore proceed with circumspection. Maybe Junkers could be considered with his exceedingly concentrated works which God grant may be spared for some time. But who knows whether they may not be smashed much sooner than we fear. With regard to the construction project for Junkers I am not quite sure whether we ought to change to concrete. I considered the possibility of amalgamating the project Anhydrit, which as far as I know in its final state will amount to 200,000 sqm with the project Mittelwerk if one dry a discussion on this subject will be possible. The Mittelwerk project amounting to almost 130,000 now and increasing to 200,000 in its final state is located in its immediate neighborhood, and I do not doubt that we might find a possibility of getting additional 200,000 sqm.\"\nTHE PRESIDENT:Dr. Bergold, may I interrupt? What are you trying to prove by this long statement?\nDR.BARG0LD: I want to prove, and that will come at the end, that the two great plannings here which were ordered by the Fuehrer, and according to the exhibit submitted by the Prosecution, he ordered Hungarian Jews to be assigned. I want to prove that one of these plans had been dropped, the plan Kaufring. This plan was dropped by the lighter Staff and later on a smaller plant was built there where Jewish workers were used. But this had nothing to do with the Fighter Staff anymore. The prosecution ins proved Only that at Ottmershausen 3,000 Jews had been used.\nOf we read on, we will find that the decision was then taken. I want to Drove also that these plannings, if they were ordered by the Fuehrer, were not final and were not decided yet in a final way.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Well, it isn't clear to the Tribunal what connection there is between allocating the various plants, determining their size and what should be manufactured, and the use of slave labor. Does this tend to throw any light on that?\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes. The prosecution has alleged that these greet plants were made by slave labor, and I want to show that this plant in which, according to the allegations of the prosecution, Hungarian Jews were used, that this plant was not built by the Fighter Staff and that therefore the prosecution has not proved altogether that the Fighter Staff used Hungarian Jews.", "speakers": [ "DR.", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 687, "page_number": "572", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "The passage will show in a very short tine that concentration camp innates were not used. Let me read one page further on and you will see that.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The difficulty is that you are reading so much that has no bearing on the point that you are urging. For example, the number of square meters in a particular plant appears to us to have no relationship to the use of slave labor. Now perhaps somewhere in this document there is a reference to the use of slave labor. Is it necessary to read all the rest of it?\nDR. BERGOLD:No, I didn't want to read the whole thing. For the time being I would like to show to the Tribunal that the Fighter Staff did not plan the construction works, but only issued the instructions as to what should be planned in what factory. I believe I have proved that so far and think the Tribunal understood that. Now I shall skip a few parts. I would have done that anyway, that is, to skip a few passages.\nTHE PRESIDENT:We approve of that.\nDR. BERGOLD:On the same page I would like to read a final sentence down here at the bottom so that the Tribunal can understand that these figures mentioned were highly exaggerated. It is about in the middle of that particular paragraph which begins on page 12 of the original. It begins with \"The following was very interesting for me: When we received the figures for the decentralized evacuation program carried out at present, building costs if 108 millions were submitted to us. When Herr Schlempp afterwards in the train made a more detailed calculation with his experts on the project comprising 600,000 sqm, it worked out to 100 millions. That means that perhaps we have to revise again cur own plans at hand drastically.\"\nThen I shall proceed to the next page. I shall read the statement made by Stobbe-Detleffsen, the last five sentences of the German original, the question concerning the great construction works. It is shortly before Saur makes a certain statement.", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 688, "page_number": "573", "date": "05 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-05", "text": "\"The question of the big works is s Very difficult one for us from the point of view of capacity. It alone requires another 25,000 workers. We reckon already now 100,000 men for the tasks of the Jaegerstab. The switch to some other work would constitute an inroad of unheard-of proportions into the remaining amament economy.\n\"Saur: 100,000 without Kammler.\"\nHe continues: \"Including the manpower we give Kammler but without the people from concentration camps.\n\"Saur: It was clear to us from the beginning that 200,000 men will be switched over.\"\n\"To switch over\" the way it is used, or the way it was used at the time, meant to take them out of one factory and put them in the other factory, from one work to the other work; that is, move them from one work to the other work.\nThe Prosecution has already read the next paragraph.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 689, "page_number": "574", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "I would like to read on the following page, the last paragraph concerning the statement made by Milch. I shall begin on page 16 of the original:\n\"We have been ordered to carry out these two construction projects by the Fuehrer. If I take now a higher compression ratio and thus attain much higher figures, even this higher figure would not prevent us from having to deal with further shifting afterwards, besides concrete works and cave works, smaller other caves, tunnels, etc. It is now doubtless correct to ascertain (1) What has to be constructed (2) for whom has it to be constructed (3) where has it to be constructed. We have to distribute it in such a way that we can efficiently cope with manpower and all the other questions, power, transportation, etc.\"\nNow page 17 of the original:\n\"Stobbe-Detleffsen: May I refer back to Ottmershausen and Kaufring. Both building areas have been chosen in such a way that the original project of 60,000 square meters can without difficulty be enlarged up to 600,000 square meters. I certainly believe that if we now depart from these building areas, and actually lock for a new spot, we shall have to take a loss of nearly a quarter of a year.\"\nI am going to skip now to Saur.\n\"Sauar: It does not have to be situated near Erla, but the point is whether brains for leadership are at Erla. I would think it correct if one of the constructions, which definitely has become a big construction project, would be enlarged over the initial echelon of 60,000 square meters which we will have to discuss anyhow these next days. We cannot assume the responsibility to shift underground a power installation of 60,000 square meters.\n\"Stobbe-Detleffsen: In this case Ottmershausen, which is unquestionably the most favorable - would remain and we would put Kaufring into the reserve.\n\"Milch: If we enlarge Ottmershausen up to 600,000 square meters, which I would welcome, the second big works with 600,000 square meters cannot be in the same region but must be located elsewhere feb many reasons \"Saur:", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 690, "page_number": "575", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "How far away from each other are the works?\n(some one calls out, \"60 kilometers\".)\n\"Stobbe-Detleffsen: These big works cause transportation problems, housing problems, etc., to unheard of proportions.\nSaur: One of these works can be put up.\"\nThen their allocated interest was dropped. I shall proceed to the next exhibit,NOKW 347, this will belong to Exhibit No. 14 concerning a Jaeger Staff Conference dated 20 March 1944. It is the next page to the page that I just read. Your Honors may know that meeting superseded the meeting of the 25th of March where the defendant Milch had to hold a speech, if the court please, before the Masters and Engineers of the Luftwaffe, and the prosecution read several passages out of this particular conference. The point I would like to prove is why this conference took place, and what its purpose was. That is important because later on I Would like to prove out of what psychological reasons Milch made such a strong term, and used such strong terms after the meeting of 23 March. I quote:\n\"Saur: With this we can come to the fundamental issue. Herr Nobel, your task is to make suggestions in a few days, or at the latest in a few weeks as to what measures must be taken in order to bring the production in the Luftwaffe shipyards in this area up to the same output as in factories of a civilian type.\"\nThose are factories of the Quartermaster general.\n\"I guarantee you that there are reserves to be mobilized, that it will be a joy. That is this we must employ stringent means is clear. The gentlemen will be amazed when I make my suggestions to you. The shipyards must, in part, go over into private hands.\n\"Nobel: For this purpose I have asked Fieldmarshal Milch to speak to the gentlemen of the responsible commands on Saturday. They must bring along with them the needed spirit, the rest we will surely got there.\n\"Milch: The chairman of an armament commission is suggesting that the airbase or shipyard-repair industry should be given into the hands of private enterprise.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 691, "page_number": "576", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "We too should like that very much. Up to now, however, it has not been possible that the GL get them. He has had no influence at all on it. In our office we have no undivided technic, but the technic has been neglected all along the line, and it has not been possible to do that as yet. The question must be discussed with the Quartermaster-General. These I see considerable difficulties.\" That is what he wanted.\nOn page 54 of the German original:\n\"Saur: Gentlemen, today we are taking up again the discussion of problems in a range that I consider too extensive. he are having here an administrative discussion. It is the business of the staff member for labor deployment to prepare and present such problems. It is a shame that we have to make suggestions to the staff member for labor, instead of his doing it on his own initiative.\"\nYou can see by this record they don't only have various decisions but a lot of talk which had no bearing to those particular meetings. Then I shall proceed to the next exhibit, that is,NOKW no. 365. This will become Exhibit No. 15. This is the Jaegerstab Discussion on 12 April 1944. That is the page following the one I just read. I shall now read shortly a report of the Jaegerstab Discussion, presided over by Hauptdienstleiter Saur, and later on by Fieldnarshal Milch. On 12 April 1944, page 51 of the original, the last line.\n\"Saur: Please tell this to Schmelter. We are in an incrediable situation as a result of lack of man-power. Here we are in the middle of the month already, and the 10,000 people distributed according to red slips have not arrived yet. A way must be found to assure priority for red slip matters over all other allocations. Tell Herr Schmelter to contact Gauleiter Sauckel still today. Going further than t at, the discontinuation, transfer or concentration of every other type of production must be brought about by us at once.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 692, "page_number": "577", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "\"Schaaf: The 4,000 people from Kahla\".\nThat proves that the great figures which Saur mentioned all the time were not fulfilled, not even 10,000 people to be delivered. This is only on paper, that is all.\nI shall now skip a few sentences.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 693, "page_number": "578", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "\"Lance: Schmelter's people complain particularly because they have no means of making pressure demands to Sauckel which will also be complied with.\"\nThis proves the Jaegerstab did not have any influence on Sauckel.\n\"Saur: Fialdmarchal, the best thing would be for you to approach Sauckel yourself since he is the man in charge of labor assignment.\n\"Milch: I shall tell him that the 10,000 red slips were not covered.\"\nThat is all Milch agrees to. He tells Sauckel he did not keep his promise. I shall now proceed to the following page. It is ExhibitNOKW 334. This will become Exhibit Number 16. This is the Jaegerstab Discussion of the 25th of April, 1944. This page 65.\n\"Shorthand Report on Jaegerstab Discussion on the 25th of April, 1944, presided over by Fieldmarshal Milch.\"\n\"Herr Saur does not appear until towards the end of the meeting.\n\"Wegener: I have a question for Schelter: Has the question of the transfer of West European workers been settled?\"\nI would like to say who Schmelter was. He was with the Rearmament Ministry and will be called as a witness.\n\"Werner: On this I can say that especially for Bavarian Motor Works, matters are particularly difficult because we can transfer only Russians and concentration camp inmates, and the staff used for supervision consists mostly of Belgians and Frenchmen.\"\nYour Honors, these people were not abused because, naturally, they were allies, that is, they were allies in their hearts.\nI shall now proceed to the following page.\n\"Kreutz: Mueller declared at one time, and he believed he could do it, the that he would try and shift a part of the head personnel within the concern.\n\"Schaede: If you bring the French key personnel to Lorraine I can g guarantee you that they would have fun away within the shortest possible time. That must be told to the firm. Even now they do not return from their vacation.\"\nYour Honors, if foreign workers can have vacations, then, of course, you cannot say they were slaves. They were free people. According to their contract, they were entitled to their vacation.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 694, "page_number": "579", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "\"Milch: It will work only if were place these people into barracks. It is true we cannot treat them as prisoners of war; the outward appearance must be different, but in actual practice that is just what it must be.\n\"Schaeder: I merely wanted to suggest to the firms to take along as few French people as possible so that they would not lose them altogether but would rather follow the system of Mueller.\n\"Milch: Exactly. And if then there are still some left one can say that this will be limited in terms of time, perhaps to several months, and that in return certain advantages will be granted to them because they will be subject to certain deprivation of their freedom.\"\nYour Honors, the Prosecution read passages of this. He spoke about putting them in barracks. That was just a precautionary measure. Milch then mentioned that it was only a limited measure, and that it should be discussed with the people. He thought they should get certain privileges. I can say to someone who is free, that I will put him in barracks and say that he will be free or that he will have certain other privileges. He agrees to that. That is not a matter of slave treatment.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Dr. Bergold, this has reference to the French workers only, does it now?\nDR.BERGOLD:Yes, My Lord. I can always prove only part of that I shall now proceed.\nI want to skip a few statements on this page. I shall proceed to the following page where Milch explains his attitude a little more clearly. I refer to Page 67 of Your Honors' Document Book.\n\"Milch: As early as today at noon, we may face the situation that BMWAllach is completely destroyed and that we have to get out. Then we cannot deal with things such as 200 or 300 French people who cannot come to Lorraine. That must be explained to the Fuehrer once more. Otherwise, I see no possibility for carrying through our assignment.\n\"Personally, I am firmly convinced after the conversations with the Fuehrer that he will then consent provided it is being done in a sensible way. The people must not sit together with the population and they must not be able to conspire. Nor should they have sufficient freedom of movement to be able to pass the green border line. Both of these things must be prevented.", "speakers": [ "THE PRESIDENT", "DR.BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 695, "page_number": "580", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "\"In compensation for these restrictions we can, on the other hand, give these people something and make them happy, be it even with cigarettes only.\"\nThe next Exhibit is Speer Exhibit Number 34. This will become Exhibit Number 17 in my Document Book. I shall give one copy to the Secretary General. It is a certified copy of the exhibit which was introduced at the case before the International Military Tribunal by the Defendant Speer. It reads as follows:\n\"The Fuehrer \"Fuehrer's Headquarters \"21 April 1944 \"To the Reich Minister for Armaments and bar Production and Head of the Todt Organization, Reich Minister Speer.\n\"I delegate Ministerialdirektor Dorsch, Chief of the Todt Central Office, to carry out the erection of the 6 fighter production buildings ordered by me, while retaining his other functions in your sphere of work.\n\"You are to be responsible for taking care of all prerequisites necessary for the speedy erection of these buildings and you are particularly to effect the best possible coordination with the other war essential buildings, if necessary referring to me for a decision.\n\"Adolf Hitler.\"\nThis copy was certified by D.I.W. Goode, Captain and George N. Garrett, 2nd Lieutenant, Infantry.\nThis proves that the Fuehrer himself ordered those large construction works, the execution of which is charged to the Defendant.\nAlthough I mentioned before that the Jaegerstab was of the opinion that it could only build one factory, the order was given by Hitler to build six. That was a.n impossible number. He delegated this duty to Mr. Dorsch. That man had his orders from the Fuehrer and not from the Jaegerstab, which, of course, was no longer responsible for his activities.\nI shall now proceed to the next exhibit number. It isNOKW 389. This will become Exhibit 18. This is the Jaegerstab, Fighter Staff Conference on 2 May 1944 at the Reich Air Ministry. This is page 69 of Your Honors' Document Book. This is part of the statement made by Milch.\n\"Milch: First of all, I should like to express our thanks and recognition for the April results to all the gentlemen of the Jaegerstab, the the members of our Central Committees and the Industrial Council, the gentlemen of the Office of the GL and our industries.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 696, "page_number": "581", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "I think Herr Saur has already said the same. I would like to mention Herr Saur personally, as we owe a tremendous amount to his particular initiative and energy.\"\nThis statement will be understood when a witness will be interrogated. They have talked about the importance of the Witness Saur and the Defendant Milch; that is to prove that the leading man in the Jaegerstab was Mr. Saur.\nThe next passage refers to the exhibit introduced by the Prosecution concerning sabotage in an air armament factory where Russians started a fire and thus caused a revolution. Because of this revolution, people were shot, which of course is a process which would lead to death in every other country. When prisoners of war strike, it leads to death. The Prosecution had these passages.\n\"Schaeder: Apart from enemy action, there is one very unpleasant matter.\n\"Milch: The case is not to be considered as typical, but it is bitter.\"\nThis shows that Milch did not draw his own conclusion like Mr. Saur did and that particularly referred to what was introduced by the Prosecution. He said this was a single case and that it does not have to be mentioned here.\nI shall now come to the following Exhibit which isNOKW 362. It will become Exhibit Number 19. It is on Page 70, Your Honors. This is the Jaegerstab Conference of the 2nd and 3rd of May, 1944.\nThat is the next page. This concerns a Fighter Staff Conference about the 5th trip of \"Operation Hubertus.\" This trip was also introduced by the Prosecution and the views of these workers in their particular ore works was mentioned there.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 697, "page_number": "582", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "Milch was not present there. He did participate in the trip; however, he did not participate in all the conferences. I shall now read on Page 107.\n\"Milch: Now I should like to suggest that we should go on to our separate committees according to plan. We will meet here again at 2015 (or 8:15) for our final discussion.\"\nThat follows the single discussions which were introduced by the prosecution where Milch was not present. Now on Page 108:\n\"Saur: Now for the final discussions.\"\nOn Page 115: \"Saur: Field Marshal, the individual conferences arc over.\n\"Milch: Gauleiter! Gentlemen! I would like to thank you for having pieced yourselves at our disposal here and hope that you will support our work. I close with the German salute.\"\nThis shows that Milch only arrived at the end.\nWe will now proceed to the following exhibit, which is OKW-1390. This will become Exhibit No. 20, Page 17 of Your Honors' book, concerning the Fighter Staff Conference on the 4th of May 1944. That is on the following page. This again concerns that revolution which was started by the Russians.\n\"Shorthand Minutes of the Fighter Staff Conference of the 4th of May 1944\"; on pages 13 and. 14 of the original.\n\"Milch: Has the Erla question been cleared up, what is really smashed up there?\n\"Lange: I have the report here. It only means a fortnight's interruption. Then everything will be running again. The report says that no surfaces have been lost. Only the single parts are burnt.\n\"Saur: That must be closely investigated. In view of the weakness of the leadership at Erla, either the Central Committee or the Special Committee will have to clarify the situation.\n\"Lange: The report is of general significance. The measures worked well because a bigger disaster was prevented. The Russians wanted to start this fire so as to kill the guards.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 698, "page_number": "583", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "Then they wanted to go to the village and start a massacre. It's rather similar to what was established at Conradi where the 1,000 Russian officers are. As a result, I had a search made and we took everything away from the Russians. But it is necessary that all the camps are thoroughly searched.\n\"Saur: Who made the report?\n\"Lange: Works delegate Ruodel.\"\nPage 14: \"Milch: I do not quite understand. Has the material for 200 surfaces been completely lost; i.e. have 200 surfaces been put out of action because of this affair?\"\nThis is a very serious result where there were lots of plans to kill the guards and. to cause a massacre in the village; thereupon, if they should want to make an example out of them and some of the prisoners were shot, this is nothing in particular, and I think that would happen in any other country where PW's would commit such revolt.\nI shall now proceed to the following exhibit number, and shall point out that Milch had nothing to do with that matter. Of course, that will come out when I interrogate him. Exhibit Ho.NOKW-443. This is Exhibit Ho. 21, concerning the Fighter Staff Conference of the 5th of May 1544 and it is on Page 73 of Your Honors' Document Book. It's on the following page of the one we just read.\n\"Stenographic minutes of the Fighter Staff Conference, on Friday, 5 lay 1944.\n\"Schmelter: I was supposed to report yet on the employment of labor in the penal institutions. The Minister of Justice has not yet forwarded the complete list of workers available in the penal institutions. I have made another inquiry. Dr. Schmelter has appointed Attorney Marl as special official in charge. He is the liaison to the Reich Ministry of Justice.\"\nI shall now skip a few sentences and shall proceed where Hayno speaks:\n\"Such conversations have taken place. They do not get us anywhere. The thing we need is a listing of all localities showing now large a number of prisoners are yet available there. When we must see whether they are required there.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 699, "page_number": "584", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "Herr Schmelter planned to concentrate then professional workers in those spots. There are only two to three percent professional workers in all among all prisoners. That is too little.\"\nYour Honors, in all vicilized. countries, also in Germany, penal prisoners have to work. How one carries on such a penal plan was carried out in Germany where the concentration camp inmates worked late in Germany. This happened within the frame of the law which existed in Germany. There was nothing in particular. This work of concentration camp inmates cannot he considered slave work.\nI shall now proceed to the following exhibit, No.NOKW-361, which will become Exhibit Ho. 22. It's the Fighter Staff Conference of the 8th to 10th of Hay 1944. This is on Page 74 of Your Honors' Document Book.\n\"Stenographic Minutes on the 6th Trip of the 'Undertaking Hubertus' from 8 to 10 May 1944.\" This is from Page 15 of the original.\n\"Milch: When shortly thereafter His Highness, the Regent, made his visit to Headquarters, the Fuehrer asked me to come to see him at a very late hour at night and ordered me to establish now immediate contacts with the Hungarian Government in order to fortify on the broadest possible basis the opportunity which now exists to an even greater extent to expand and to secure the capacity of Hungarian armament too for the common aims in the field of aviation.\"\nYour Honors, the prosecution also presented this speech and the Prosecution thought that one could conclude that this was slave labor. This passage, however, shows that this was an agreement between the German and the Hungarian Governments which at the time was the legal government, and ordered to expand that particular armament of Hungary. What the Prosecution has introduced docs not prove that this is slave labor.\nI shall now proceed to the next document,NOKW-336. This will become Exhibit No. 23. This is the Jaegerstab Conference of Friday, the 26th of Hay 1944. (Minister Speer and Field Marshal Milch entering.)\n\"Milch: I welcome our Minister Speer for the first time in the circle of the Fighter Staff and would like to express my special happiness and at the same time yours that you, dear Speer, are again with us, well, cheerful and in the old creative- spirit.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 700, "page_number": "585", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "\"This machinery, created by your orders, accomplished excellent things in the three months of its existence. It has made special efforts to bring the production of fighters and all that goes with them to a high level.\" This proves that the Fighter Staff apparatus was built by Speer, so to say.\nI shall now proceed to Page 75 of the original. There seems to be a mistake made by my secretary. The name of the person speaking was omitted here. It is Mr. Schmelter who is speaking.\n\"The reports of the board of examiners show that a larger number could be deducted from the plants belonging to the Luftwaffe if one succeeds to establish joint direction for the department of plane constructions, the technical plant groups and companies.\n\"Field Marshal Misch: The quarter-master-general to whom all are subordinated. No one is subordinate to me.\"\nYour Honors, I would like to mention here that these records here have some very funny expressions. It should read: \"Therefore, it was impossible to get more workers.\" The next sentence will show that where it says that, \"To deduct workers would only be possible if there was one leadership.\" Therefore, it should say, \"Under three leaderships it is impossible; under one leadership it is possible.\" Therefore if we are to prove that these records contain millions of mistakes, it cannot be proven.\nI shall now continue to the next page--the continuation of the age which I shall introduce. It is a continuation of he Prosecution's Exhibit where the defendant is charged that he had to see it that he foreign laborers also had to work for 32 hours and that he mentioned that they were shirking. This on only be understood, however, if were the whole thing. I would like to add the following part which as omitted by the Prosecution. Schmelter mentions of those people who are working around, here, 'Probably they are working in factories where they don't have to work for 72 hours.\n\"Milch: Then one can equalize. Isn't it possible, to avoid injus tice toward our workers, to have our other plants work too, not all of them for 72 hours, but perhaps up to 64 hours?", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 701, "page_number": "586", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "That should suffice if all would do it.\n\"Schmelter: I prepared already for the conference on the chiefs of the various offices, the suggestion that working hours in civilian production plants working only 48 hours.\n\"Field Marshal Milch: Then one Can equalize and we need not work all the time for 72 hours.\"\nMilch wanted to prove the contrary. He wanted to read that not all the workers had to work for less than 72 hours; in other words, it was not an inhumane proposition, but a humane one, and it induced him to do the contrary which was done by the fact that the Prosecution omitted this latter part.\nI shall now proceed to the following exhibit number. It is NOKW-359, which will become Exhibit No. 24, concerning the Fighter Staff of the 27th of June 1944, and it is on page 77 of Your Honors' Document Book, the following page after the one I just read. This refers to an exhibit number of the prosecution where it is mentioned if the Anglo-American terror fliers should not be put to work and Schmelter wanted that. However, I wish to mention the fact that Milch was not present at that particular conference so that he had nothing to do with it. However, I will tell you why the general attitude of Milch is important for the German Government. I shall now read the last part of this page.\n\"Schmelter: There is one little point I have still to mention. Once I pointed out that we have a considerable number of English and American terror aviators in Luftwaffe camps who are not to be employed.\"", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 702, "page_number": "587", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "Your Honors, in Germany Englishmen and Americans were not used for work. They were absolutely unemployed in German camps. In other words, it is not true that Milch and all the other defendants wanted slave laborers at any price; they differentiated between the two, and I shall prove during the examination of Milch that among the Englishmen and the Americans and the French and the Russians there were exceptions, and I shall prove why they had differences among the four. In short, we had no contact with the Russians. The French were released prisoners of war who had been released only on the condition that they would work.\nI shall now proceed to a now exhibit number. This is a report of General George C. Marshall, concerning the warfare of the United states of America from 1 June 1943 to 1945. This will become Exhibit Number 25. This report which is in the hands of the American Government. I would like to have judicial notice taken of this. The report is on Page 11 of my document book. On page 11 we have the title page of this report, \"Diennial Report of General George C. Marshall, Chief of Staff of the United States Army, July 1, 1943 to June 30 1945, to tho Secretary of Mar.\"\n\"The country had bonefitted from the utilization of the labor of these prisoners of war. Our critical manpower shortage had been relieved by 62,075 prisoner working days; the U.S. Treasury had been enriched by 35,196,800 paid by private contractors for this labor. In addition, their use on military installations had an estimated value of $108,825,469.\"\nYour Honors, I am proving with that that even the United States used prisoners of war on military installations.\nI shall now proceed to the following exhibit number. This is the house rules for the prisoners detained in the the Nuremberg Palace of Justice.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 703, "page_number": "", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "This will become Exhibit No. 26. It is on Page 13 of Your Honors' Document Book. I would like to introduce this exhibit because a statement made by Milch in the Jaegerstab was introduced by the Prosecution wherein 587A Milch explained that where Italians try to escape from the transports they should be shot at without 587B warning.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 705, "page_number": "588", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "These Italians were military internees. That is, they were the sort of soldiers who were captured by the German army who had turned against the German Wehrmacht and against the Fascist regime, and, therefore, as in all States, were considered PW's and were made PW's. The order to shoot without warning was mentioned a.s being very ruthless. I shall read the rule concerning prisoners detained in this house:\n\"House Rules for Prisoners:\n\"A. Internees: The term 'internee' in those house rules means every person who is held in prison here and from whom no personal work or other service is demanded.\n\"B. Prisoners: The term 'prisoner' includes all persons detained here.\n\"C. Prisoners of War: The term 'prisoner of war' includes all doctors, clergymen and working personnel detained here for the operation of the prison.\"\nThat is to say, even in this particular prison the prisoners have to work, and the internees do not have to work.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 706, "page_number": "589", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "I shall continue. I shall skip over the other rules, and I shall appreciate it if you would read Number 4 on the following page:\nTHE PRESIDENT:Just a moment.\nDR. BERGOLD:Number 4: \"No internee shall make an attempt to escape. In case of an attempt to escape, they will be knocked down or shot down. The guard will call 'stop' if time permits.\"\nI merely want to show you that it is absolutely clear and naturral that one has to shoot after prisoners of war and that sometimes one does not even say \"Stop\" because there is no time for that. When, in the course of a military transport in the Alps, certain prisoners tried to escape, then, of course, they shot after them. That is not an inhumane act.\nI shall proceed now to the following exhibit, which is an Extract from the Numberger Nachrichter of the 15 January 1947. This is Exhibit No. 27. It is a newspaper that appears here in Nuremberg. This is an article on a report of the Associated Press, \"Where do German Prisoners of War Work in France?\" That is on Page 16 of the German original, page 15 of Your Honors' document book:\n\"Extract from the Nurnberger Nachrichter, Newspaper for North Bavaria, 3rd Year/ No. 4 15 January 1947.\n\"Where do German Prisoners of War work in France?\n\"A survey of the French Ministry of Population from October 1946 showed the distribution of the German prisoners of war and the different branches of French economy as follows:\"\nI shall now refer to the second number, \"coal mines, other mines and quarries, 62,000.\" the Prosecution introduced a number of exhibits concerning the employment of prisoners of war in coal mines. Their introduction can only mean to me that in their opinion.", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 707, "page_number": "590", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "This was inhuman; slave work. That, of course, is a mistake of the Prosecution. Prisoners of war may be employed in cool minus. This can be clearly seen from this special report of the French Government that German prisoners of war were used in the coal mines of France.\nI shall, furthermore, refer to the sixth lino: \"Mine clearing work, 30,200 people\". These, of course, are very dangerous things because in those particular areas there are lots of mines, and it is a very dangerous task to remove those mines.\nMay it please the Tribunal, I have now finished my own document book. However, there is one more document in her which I would like to introduce later on, in the next few days, if I got another document back in the next few days which was not ready because I only got the necessary evidence from your government a few days ago; that is, Saturday. I would like to take the liberty no. -- or if the Tri bunal wishes to take a short recess -\nTHE PRESIDENT:The Tribunal will take its customary short recess.\nTHE MARSHAL:The Tribunal will recess for fifteen minutes.\n(A recess was taken)", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 708, "page_number": "591", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "MARSHAL:All persons in the Court, please find your seats. Tribunal Number II is again in session.\nDR. BERGOLD:Your Honors, I should, first of all, like to make a request. Because of a heart difficulty, since early years, I have not been in a physical condition that permits me to stand for a long time. I become faint under those circumstances. Would the Tribunal permit me to sit down while continuing my case?\nTHE PRESIDENT:Of course, Dr. Bergold.\nDR. BERGOLD:Thank you very much.\nYour Honors, I shall read now from the document books submitted by the prosecution. The prosecution read none that do not appear to me important for my case. I do not know the page numbers for the English Document Book; consequently, I shall refer to the exhibit number of the prosecution, and I hope that this will expedite the work of the Court. First, I should like to read from Exhibit No. 3 of the prosecution. I shall read from that, a few passages -- from Document Book 1-A, yes. This is the so-called \"Schmundt Protocol\" of the 23rd of May, 1939, the first item in Book 1-A. I shall read from page 10 of the German Document Book that I received. It is the paragraph in which Hitler concerns himself with the conducting of the war and lists a number of statistics. I should like to read number four. I'm going to begin with number four, which concerns a matter of cooperation between the army and the air force. Number four, the paragraphs of the underlined words, \"Conduct of the War - The Waging of the War\", page 6 of the English book, top of the page. The paragraph reads, number four, page 6 of the English original:\n\"Once the army, in cooperation with the air force and navy, has taken the most important positions, industrial production will cease to flow into the bottomlesspits of the army's battles and can be diverted to benefit the air force and navy.\"\nSix or seven paragraphs later, on the next page, I should like to read another small paragraph. It begins with the words: -- six paragraphs later.", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD", "MARSHAL", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 709, "page_number": "592", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "Yes, immediately subsequent to the underlined sentence in the middle of the page \"The Plan Demands.\"", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 710, "page_number": "593", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "1. A correct estimate of weapons and their effectiveness, e.g., (a) Battleship or aircraft carrier, which is the more effective?\nIndividually or considered as a whole? The aircraft carrier is the better protection for a convoy.\n(b) Is air attack more important on a factory than on a battleship? Where are bottlenecks in production located?\"\nDR. BERGOLD:I continue. Over to the next page, to the last page of the document, beginning with the word \"Secrecy\", at the top of page 7, the second full paragraph:\n\"Secrecy is the decisive requirement for success. Our subject must be kept secret even from Italy or Japan. The breakthrough to the Maginot line is still a possibility for Italy and must be studied. The Fuehrer considers that such a breakthrough is possible.\"\nThen, on the same page, the last paragraph, \"Working principles\":\n\"Working principles:\n1. No one must be admitted who is not concerned.\n2. No one may know more than it is necessary for him to know.\n3. When must the person concerned know, at latest? No one may know of a matter earlier than is necessary for him to know of it.\nAt the request of Field Marshal Goering, the Fuehrer decrees that:\n(a) The various services shall decide what construction is to be undertaken.\n(b) There shall be no alterations in the shipbuilding program.\n(c) The armaments programs are to be considered with regards to 1943 or 19-4.\"\nDR. BERGOLD:Your Honor, I shall later attempt to prove that this statement on the part of Hitler was not made at all by Hitler. And that, in other words, the Schmundt Protocol is a sort of fortification.\nI come now to Exhibit No. 7. 3005PS isthe document number; 26 August 1941; in the English Document Book; It is addressed \"To the Presidents of Regional Labor Exchange Offices, concerning the use of Russian PW's. I shall read from page 23 with reference to this letter of 14 August 1941 and I shall read only the part at the very beginning of this letter from The Reich Minister of Labor, Berlin, addressed to the Presidents of Regional Labor Exchange Offices (including Nuernberg Branch Office). It will be seen from this letter that these regulations were not known to Milch and could not be known by him because they were not addressed to him.", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 711, "page_number": "594", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "They were internally, internalintra-office matter of the Reich Ministry.\nI go now to Exhibit 8, Document No.EC 194, 31 October 1941, Secret memorandum of decree concerning use of prisoners of war in war industry.\nFrom this document, which is a decree to title, I will read from the last page of the document, the so-called \"Distribution\"; that is, the indication of all those -- the indication of all the offices that received this secret decree. It reads: \"Distribution: Ob.d. H/ Org. Abt.\" - the OKW Organizational Department, Quartermaster General No. 2, with the\"Skl\", abbreviation before it; then, high command of the Luftwaffe Quartermaster General. That means that Milch did not receive this at that time since he was not Quartermaster General. From a document read today you saw that he said subsequently, \"I am not a quartermaster-general, and I have no authority there.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 712, "page_number": "595", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "\" I read further:\n\"Reichsarbeitsministerium Att: Staatssekretaer Syrup; Reichminister fuer Bewaffnung and Munition, Att: Ob. Reg. Baurat Behrens; Reichswirtschaftsministerium: Att: Min. Rat. Quacke; Reichministerium fuer Ernaehrung and Landwirtschaft. Att: Reichminister for Food and Agriculture; Min. Rat. Dr. Dietrich; OFW; and the Intelligence; and the Wi Rue Amt,---Department; \" Ausl/abw; AWA (3 x); W.H.; Abt. Ausl; WEST Abt. L (Chef L I H? IK? IL? IV? II, \" -\nDR. BERGOLD:And the abbreviation: \"ntb)\". This \"Distribution\" proves that Milch did not receive this; rather, it was a secret order; and according to the decree of the Fuehrer I read to you, it is apparent that since it was secret it could not be brought to his attention but only to the attention of the offices named therein.\nI go now to Exhibit 9, Document No. 1206 here, page 27, of the 7th of November 1941. Notes of Goering, remarks made at the Air Ministry, concerning employment of labor in war industry. From this document I shall read again the last page; again, the \"Distribution\"; page 29,: \"Distribution\" \"Chief Ru\" (Reading) that is the OKW; \"Section/ROE would be the second copy that is again a department of the OKW. \"Ru II\" would be the 3rd, copy; Ru IIIa would be the 4th copy; RuVI-IIIa would be the fifth copy; that is also a work department of the OKW. \"Draft Ru IVd\" would he the sixth copy. Then there follows the draft of the persons who had received the particular document. This notation -- or, rather this document -- did not come to \"Mich's attention; also, it was only a draft, but it was called \"top secret military\" and it did remain secret, and came to the attention of only those to whom it was distributed.\nHoweover, at that time, Milch was not at that time LuftwaffeQuartermaster-General, but only Inspector-General, and inspected only troops.", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 713, "page_number": "596", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "I come now to Exhibit No. 10, DocumentNO 3040-PS; page 30, 20 February 1942; secret order of the Reich Fuehrer SS concerning commitment of manpower from the east. I shall read the too of page 32 in the English document book, the first line, Roman numeral II, 4b. I quote; \"b. The instructions for the plant protection and guard personnel. The guards must keep strictly away from the Soviet-Russian manpower and must not speak with them except in line of duty. They have to treat the camp inhabitants strictly but must not commit any injustices against them. c. The conduct of the guards is to be checked constantly. Violations against discipline by men of the plant protection and the protective personnel are to be punished by the State Police.\" This page shows clearly that there were instructions for the guards to behave decently and justly.\nI read the next page, Roman numeral III, heading, combatting violations against discipline; the same page, page 32. 1. \"According to the equal status of the manpower from the original Soviet-Russian prisoners of war, a strict discipline must be exercised in the quarters and at the place of work. Violations against discipline, including work refusal and leafing at work, will be fought exclusively by the Secret State Police. The smaller cases will be settled by the leaders of the guard according to instructions of the State Police Administration Office, with measures provided for in the enclosure. To break acute resistance, the guards shall be permitted also to use physical power against the manpower but that may be done only for a cogent reason. The manpower should always be informed about the fact that they will be treated decently when conducting themselves with discipline and accomplishing good work. This therefore proves, in contradiction to the assumption by the prosecution, that only in particularly serious cases was physical force permitted, only in combatting acute resistance.\"\nI now skip Roman numeral VI, Roman numeral VII and IX. I come to Roman numeral II which is a numeral following Roman numeral VII on the top of page 34, German activities. Just a moment, my error, I want to read Roman numeral III, fighting against the breach of the work contract.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 714, "page_number": "", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "I quote: '1. The fighting against the breach of the work contract of this manpower is principally the duty of the Secret State Police.\n2. This does 596a not mean, of course, any interference in the activity of the Reich arbitrator for work, with the means at his disposal in the regulation and settlement of industrial difficulties as long as no active intervention is necessary.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 715, "page_number": "597", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "If more stringent measures are necessary, the arbitrator will transfer the proceedings to the Secret Police. 3. In every case, however, it is the task of the State Police Administrative Office to check whether the violation of the work duty by this manpower is not caused by the plant, by breach of contract, as well as general bad treatment. If the conduct of the concerned manpower appears justified through the faults or on the part of the plant, the State Police is not to interfere since this is free manpower. These were Poles.\"\nI proceed to the next exhibit, Exhibit No. 11, DocumentNO 1435PS, of 25 February 1942, page 37 of the English document, Speer's speech at the Gauleiter meeting, if the Tribunal will permit me to read this document slowly. It begins, \"They have, we find, one advantage over us, in respect to punishments in the interest of the State. We, too, in the armament industries must proceed far more strictly, far more stringently. The Fuehrer has decreed, on my suggestion, that those plant directors and employees and also those officials and officers who attempt by false statements to request materials or manpower are to be punished either with death or with a long prison sentence.\"\nYour Honors, these last two documents prove that the leadership wanted to do everything in its power to treat their workers decently and that, if there were any offenses, it should first be examined whether or not the German plants were the guilty part, and if the foreigners who worked there should be left at liberty.\nI shall now continue to proceed to Exhibit No. 12, Document NO-D316, of 14 March 1942, a memorandum to Dr. Hupe, page 39, concerning the employment of Russians. This document is inserted in my document book. I shall read slowly because I believe the interpreters haven't got it. I shall read only the introduction. The heading is Friedrich Krupp A.G., ESSEN, the Machine Building Workshop 8 through Mr. Koch to Mr. Hupe, 1942, regarding employment of Russians.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 716, "page_number": "", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "I have read this, Your Honors, in order to show that this had nothing whatever to do with the defendant Milch. The Krupp works were not a plant of aircraft armament, but of the Army. Erhard Milch was interested in the aircraft armament, and know nothing of this.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 717, "page_number": "598", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "I come now to DocumentNO 13-- Exhibit No. 13 -- Document NO 016-PS, page 39, of 20 April 1242, labor mobilization program. I shall read from page 2 of the German copy under large B: \"All orders of the Fuehrer, Reichs Field Marshal of the Greater Reich, and the 'Minister' for ammunition and armament are to be carried out as quickly as possible. Labor supply necessary for that purpose must be freed and made available either in Germany or an the occupied territories.\" This proves that the Central Planning is not mentioned here although it was at that time already in existence. It had, therefore, no direct right to requisition.\nFrom the same document, under VII, I will read: \"The problems and their solution\" and there you must look under Bb, number 3;in the German book it is page 87. I read:", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 718, "page_number": "599", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "DR. BERGOLD:I read No. 3: \"The Armament and Nutrition tasks make it vitally necessary not only to include the entire German labor power but also to call on foreign labor.\" This proves that foreign workers were not used in accordance with a program for slave labor that existed from the time back at the beginning, but used them only as an emergency war measure. I read further: No. 7, Arabic number seven; that's on page )46. I read the last paragraph, the top of page 47: \"The severest measures must be used against leafers, as - we can not allow these parasites to shirk their duties in this fateful struggle of our people at the cost of the decent and industrious ones.\"\nThis passage proves that the loafers he mentioned are oven in Sauckel's case German markers. This is a report on German workers and you can see that from the first sentence of this No. 7 which I am now reading, I quote: \"a last, but also important reserve consists in the possibility of the personal increased production of each German worker.\"\nI read further; several; pages further in the section that begins: \"Prisoners of War and Foreign Workers. \" That's page 93. I read the second paragraph of the section: \"all of the men must be fed, sheltered and treated in such a way as to exploit them to the highest possible degree at the lowest conceivable degree of expenditures.\"\nYour Honor, this passage, when it was read by the prosecution, was the cause of discussion between me and the prosecution, because I was of the opinion that the word 'einsatz\" was incorrectly translated with the word \"expenditure.\" In my opening speech, your Honor, on page 6, I myself used the German word \"einsatz \" and said that\" in connection of \"Einsatz der Arbeitenden\" . Through the official translation of this work, this word \"einsatz \" was translated as \"assignment\". Moreover, it has also been translated with the word \"Employment\" just now and I also heard of it being translated as 'consignment of labor\". Four honor, I believe, \"therefore, that my objection to this translation \"expenditures\" was correct and that the word \"einsatz\" should not be translated as \"expenditure,\" but as either \"assignment\" or \"consignment\" or 'employment\". I come now to the last page of this document, page 5l, or rather page 50, the passage immediately before number 1: \"Therefore, in closing I would ask you to observe the following principles carefully:", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 719, "page_number": "", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "1. All technical and administrative natters for the mobilization come exclusively under the authority and responsibility of the General Plenipo 599a tentiary for Labor Mobilization, the National Labor Offices and the Labor Offices.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 720, "page_number": "600", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "No. 2. All questions and tasks concerning propagandas, orientation, or political consequences and care, come under the jurisdiction of (a) the party, if outside of the plant (b) the German Labor Front if inside of the manufacturing plant, (c) the Bureau for Farm Politics for agricultural enterprises, 3.) The issue of food and clothing ration cards, financial indemnities and relief come exclusively under the jurisdiction of the competent authorities or institutions of the economy.\"\nThis demonstrates that the Plenipotentiary General was exclusively competent for questions of propaganda as such. Milch had no influence whatsoever in this department. I go now to Exhibit No. 14-a, document number 3044PS andpage 56 of the document book. On the 7 May 1942 Sauckel Order No. 5 was published in District Regulations and Announcements. From this collection Regulation No. 4 of the Plenipotentiary General. No. 4, on Page 106 of the German document I believe its page 60, bottom of the page. Have you the got it? I shall read it slowly. \"Regulation No. 4 of the Plenipotentiary General for the mobilization of labor regarding the recruitment, care, housing, feeding and treatment of foreign workers, male and female, of May 7 1942. In this tremendous and fateful fight of all Europe the Greater German Reich must, in order to assure its armament and food, employ an enormous number of non-German and foreign male and female workers in the Reich. All of these workers, including the prisoners of war, will be treated in accordance with the oldest traditions of the German people and race, correctly, decently and humanely. The recruitment of foreign labor will be done on one fundamental basis of volunteering.\"\nThis is, your Honor, on page 56. The third paragraph;", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 721, "page_number": "", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "\"Where, however, in the occupied territories the appeal for volunteers does not suffice, obligatory service must be under all circumstances resorted to. This is an undisputable requirement of our labor situation. Recruitment must be made as benefits the prestige of the Greater German Reich and the will of the Fuehrer. Irresponsible promises regarding pay, contracts, 600-a housing, free time, and so on must not be made.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 722, "page_number": "601", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "Living conditions in Germany itself, which are better than anywhere else in Europe, can and should be emphasized without exaggeration being necessary. Jewish methods of catching people, such as were customary in the democratic states of the capitalistic world, are unworthy of the National Socialist Greater German Reich. With the above principles as a basis I order the following: I. General. The recruitment of foreign labor in the areas occupied by Germany belonging to allied, allied-friendly, or neutral states will be carried out exclusively by my commissioners or by the competent German military or civil agencies for the tasks of labor mobilization. Other agencies, organizations or persons are not allowed to recruit foreign labor.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 723, "page_number": "", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "This proves that only Sauckel and his organization were competent in this matter and that no lies were told to the foreigners; that as a matter of practice they were treated correctly and decently, and were recruited in the main voluntarily.\nI come now to 2, the bottom of page 58. \"The care of foreign labor will be carried out: a up to the boundaries of one Reich by my commissioners or in the occupied areas by the competent military or civil labor mobilization agencies. Care of the labor will be carried out in cooperation with the respective competent foreign organization, b. within the area of the Reich. 1. by the German Labor Front in the cases of non-agricultural workers; 2. by the Reich Food Administration in the case of agricultural workers. The German Labor Front and the German Food Administration are bound by my directives in the carrying out of their tasks of caring for the workers.\"\nThat proves again that only Sauckel was competent for transporting these workers. On the same page I read II.\n\"Carrying out of Recruitment: la. For the carrying out of recruitment in allied, friendly, or neutral foreign countries, my commissioners are solely responsible. They must, in all cases of political importance, come to an agreement with the Chief of the respective German diplomatic missions, and to this extent are bound by the directives of the chief of the mission or his deputy. The missions chiefs are to be informed of all basic questions of mobilization of 1 bor. Negotiations with foreign agencies and organizations in foreign lands which are of basic importance are to be carried out in agreement with respective Reich representatives or on the basis of their arrangements. Conversations with foreign agencies and organizations on questions of technical execution of the **** 602 tion of recruitment can be carried on by my representatives directly.\"", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 724, "page_number": "", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "This shows that Sauckel was in charge. It shows also, however, that workers in allied, friendly, and neutral coun tries were included in this recruitment. I shall prove that this was a considerable number, so that what Sauckel Said about one mere 200,000 that came voluntarily was a mis statement.\n602-a I come now to the next page to IIb. \"For the respective recruitment of labor in areas occupied by the Germany, agencies for the mobilization of labor of the German military or civil administration installed in these areas are exclusively responsible.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 725, "page_number": "603", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "I retain for myself the right to send special representatives to these agencies from time to time.\"\nThis proves that Milch was not responsible.\nThen III about three pages later: \"Carrying out of the transportation into the Reich.\" That is Page 59 in the middle of the page. \"b, Composition and operation of the transports.\" I beg your pardon. \"A. Basis principles, after recruitment and during the transport into the Reich a correct, faultless, treatment of the workers, male and female, is to be striven, for in order that willingness to work and the trust of those recruited may not be destroyed perhaps already during transport. The workers recruited are us a rule to be taken in collective transports with special trains, or if necessary in group transports, with regular trains.\n\"b. Composition and operation of the transports. The composition and operations of the transports up to the place of work is the task of my representatives, in the occupied territories of the labor mobilization agencies of the military and civil administration, in the countries in which foreign representatives are to direct the transports up to the fronties, the German recruiting agency must take part in the supervision and care of the transports.\n\"The chief of the transport must take care that during the transport;\n\"1. Unconditional order and cleanliness prevail. The necessary hygienic precautions must be assured under all circumstances in each transport and if temporary lodging in a collection camp takes place, in every collection camp.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 726, "page_number": "", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "\"2. An overloading of the cars will not take place.\n\"3. A sufficient number of toilets, also at stops, and in the collection camps, or perhaps latrines, will be at hand.\n\"4. Masculine and feminine members of the transport will be separated.\n\"5. Ethnic Germans, as far as possible, till be separated from the foreign 603 a members of the transport.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 727, "page_number": "604", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "\"6. Prevent friction amongst the various foreign elements of the transport through suitable sheltering.\"\nI skip now to \"c, Supply for the transport. The food supply for the industrial workers in transit within the Reich is the duty of the DAF German Workers front, office for labor mobilization. For the rest, my office effect the supply for the transport.\"\nI skip now to the next paragraph: \"The assurances of a sufficient and substantial supply of the members of the transport within the sphere of war-conditioned possibilities is of special importance. Special care must therefore be devoted to that question.\"\n\"d. Decontamination. As far as the foreign workers originate from areas whence the introduction of contagious diseases must be feared, they must, if necessary, be decontaminated several times.\" I skip one sentence. \"This must take place within the borders of the Reich in transient camps specifically provided for this purpose. While the workers are in decontamination place the workers are to be treated unexceptionally.\"\nThose orders prove, Your Honors, that oven Sauckel wanted to do the best that he could for the transport of these workers. It is not a fact that there was a plan according to which these transports should be carried out in an inhumane manner. On the contrary, the plan existed that they should be carried out with the utmost care.\nFrom the same exhibit number I come to Regulation No. V, Page 63 of the English document book. Regulation No. 5 of the GBA regarding the exclusive competence of the GBA offices to accept contracts for the allocation of labor of 11 July 1924. In allocating workers it must always be kept in mind that manpower is requested at offices outside the administra tion for the allocation of Labor.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 728, "page_number": "", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "THE PRESIDENT:We will recess until 1:30.\n(A recess was taken until 1330 hours.)\n604-a AFTERNOON SESSION", "speakers": [ "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 729, "page_number": "605", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "THE MARSHAL:The Military Tribunal is again in session.\nDR. BERGOLD:May it please the Court. Before I continue, I should like to rectify a number of errors. These are errors in the English translation.\nI have before me a German report of the meeting of the 27th of January, page 529. In the English translation a very serious mistake has come to light, and I beg the Tribunal to make an order to have that rectified. There, with reference to my Exhibit Number 11, I had spoken the following sentence.\n\"You will see from this that the question of foreign workers occupies only a relatively small part of the statements of this 53rd meeting\", and then everything following is not understandable in the English report.\nI should like, therefore, to repeat it.\n\"Everybody was meditating about the main thing: Have the foreign workers arrived at all or we fooled by Sauckel?\"\nThat appears important.\nThen, Your Honors, my assistant has pointed out to me that in the course of the interpretation this morning, the words \" voluntary recruitment\" had only been translated as \"recruitment\". The word \"voluntary\" should have been added. That is a crucial point.\nLikewise, the words \"digestible nourishment\" were only translated as \"supplies\". \"Digestible\" had been omitted.", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 730, "page_number": "606", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "THE PRESIDENT:Dr. Bergold, it seems to me that the only kind of recruitment there can possibly be is voluntary recruitment. The word \"recruitment\" means a voluntary offer to work.\nDR. BERGOLD:I have been informed, Mr. President, that in your language the word \"recruitment\" refers to voluntary, a recruitment by the State, that is, for instance the calling up a recruitment for the army, that is a forcible recruitment is the same thing. Maybe I have been misinformed, and I must apologize.\nTHE PRESIDENT:I think there is a distinction between recruitment and drafting. Recruitment means asking for voluntary service; drafting means compulsory service. I think you may rely upon the Tribunal in its interpreting the word \"recruitment\" as voluntary.\nDR. BERGOLD:Thank you, very much indeed. I wish now to continue with Exhibit No. 14-A, document No. 3044-PS, on page 6 of the English Document Book, which I wished to submit this morning. It is instruction No. 5, of the Plenipotentiary General dated 11 July 1942. I have been informed that this document is not contained in the English document book; it is contained in the German book and I shall read the instruction order No. 5 from the plenipotentiary for labor allocation regarding their jurisdiction on the labor distribution for the receiving of orders regarding the supply of workers, dated 11 July 1942; in carrying out these allocations labor special care should be taken at all times that labor allotments are requested at agencies outside of the administration of the labor allotments, or simultaneously at different agencies. This causes difficulties and delays in obtaining supplies, which must be prevented at all costs. On the basis of instructions from the Fuehrer, and the Marshal of the Greater German Reich, I, therefore, order that the requirement regarding labor should only be claimed from agencies of the labor allotment administration, or as a rule, therefore, from such labor offices as are responsible for the local firm concerned. In certain cases where the General Plenipotentiary of Labor Allocation and the Reichsminister of Ammunition and armaments, have agreed on the urgency of certain stock progrms, request is to be made directly through the Reich Ministry for 606 (a) Armament and Ammunition to Main Office 4 of the Ministry of Labor; Your Honors, this proves that with the requests for labor only the General Plenipotentiary and the labor offices, were concerned, with the exception of certain individual cases where the Ministry of Defense was also competent not, however the Quartermaster-General of the Air Force.", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 732, "page_number": "607", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "I now turn to Exhibit No. 15, page 125 of the German Document Book, Document No. 2241*PS, dated 20 July 1942. An order from Sauckel on the 10 August 1942, published in Sauckel's section of instructions, page 64 in the English Document Book. This document contains first of all a decree regarding the newly occupied eastern territories, and then follows the decree to which I am now going to refer, I should like only to read the beginning of it:\n\"Decree of the Plenipotentiary General for Manpower on the execution of the transportation of workers, in this case, damage to and soiling of passenger coaches of the German Railways and their fittings.\"\nThe Prosecution incidentally has submitted an exhibit in order to show that condition were not orderly. In reality we are here concerned with an attempt to prevent such individual disorderly conditions, to do away with them. There are mistakes made in every country in the world, but when the competent authorities take action to remove these conditions, one cannot hold that against them.\nI shall now turn to Exhibit No. 16, which is document No. 654-PS dated September 18, 1942, notes made by Dirak about a conference with Himmler about the surrendering of Jews to Himmler for extermination through labor. It is on page 67 of the English Document Book. Your Honors as proof of the fact that Milch had nothing to do with it, I shall read the introduction as follows:\n\"Discussion with Reich Fuehrer of SS Himmler on 18.9.42, in his Field Headquarters in the presence of State secretary Dr. Rothenberger, SS Gruppenfuehrer Streckenbach, and SS Obersturmbannfuehrer Bender.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 733, "page_number": "", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "607 (a) We are here concerned with the internal agreement made between the Administry of Justice and Himmler.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 734, "page_number": "608", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "Then I turn to Exhibit No. 21, that is document No. 1063-PS, dated 17 December 1942. It is an order from Mueller regarding the workers capable of work to be taken from the concentration camp. It is page 100 of the translation. Have you found it? I shall read the introduction:\n\"The Chief of the Security Police and the Security Service.\" Then comes the reference number, followed by the statement \"Secret\" and then by \"Secret to: All commanders of the security police and the security service.\nAll inspectors of the security police and the security service.\nAll commandants of the security police and the security service.\nAll chiefs of the State police headquarters.\nFor the information of: The chief of the SS economic and administration headquarters, SS Lt. Gen.\nPOHL.\nAll higher SS and police chiefs.\nThe inspectors of the concentration camps.\"\nIt was a secret document, and no agency is mentioned therein which in any way is connected with the defendant Milch. I shall read the first paragraph:\n\"For reasons of war necessity not to be discussed further here, the Reichsfuehrer SS and Chief of the German police on 14 December 1942, has ordered that until the end of January 1943, at least 35,000 prisoners qualified for work, are to be sent to the concentration camps.\"\nLater on I shall prove just why this order was issued, because Himmler for his Waffen-SS was beginning to start armament terms of his own.\nI now turn to document No. 22, the number is )18-PS, dated 21 December 1942. It is a letter from Rosenberg to Sauckel dealing with the question of workers in the East. Page 102 of the English document Book.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 735, "page_number": "609", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "The prosecution has presented the documents in order to show that they were inhumane acts. Its real significance becomes apparent from the second paragraph of this document on the first page, which I shall now read.\n\"If there is now complete agreement between your and my conception of the matter, I nevertheless find it necessary on the grounds of several occurrences during the last months, to point out with reference to the enclosure, the methods applied by your agencies and collaborators. I thereby do not disregard the fact that considering the scope and urgency of the task to be accomplished, difficulties and hardships, yes, even false measures by the executing branches, can in the long run not be avoided. But it seems necessary to me, to follow up these occurrences insofar as they touch the conduct of war and the interests of the Reich.\"\nThen on the following page, there is the third last long paragraph, and it begins by saying, \"Even if I do not close my eyes to the necessity...\" Have you found it? It is on page 102, the third last line from the bottom.\n\"Even if I do not close my eyes to the necessity that the numbers demanded by the Reichsminister for Armament and ammunition as well as by the agricultural economy justify unusual and hard measures I have to ask, due to the responsibility for the occupied Eastern territories which lies upon me, that in the accomplishments of ordered tasks, such measures be excluded, the toleration and prosecution of which will some day be hold against me and my collaborators. In order to achieve this, and to bring into agreement the requirements given by the peculiar political situation of the Eastern territories with the measures of the commissions and the staffs of your agencies, I have empowered the Reichs commissioner for the Ukraine insofar as neccessary to make use of his right, and to see to it that methods which run contrary to the interest of the conduct of the war and war economy in the occupied East be abolished.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 736, "page_number": "", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "\"It appears strange to me that in numerous cases which should have been discussed with the civil authorities, we only receive information through the police and other agencies.\"\nAnd I shall now read the last sentence of the paragraph: \"With consultation of our mutual wishes, which you personally will certainly understand, it is 609 (a) unfortunately impossible for me to accept a co-responsibility for the consequences which result from the recounted state of affairs.\"", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 737, "page_number": "610", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "That ends the reading from Document 1-A. I shall now turn to Document Book 1-B. The first is Exhibit No. 28. The index, incidentally, is still in the first book, Your Honors. We are here concerned with Exhibit No. 28, Document No. 3012-PS, dated 19 March 1943; an order signed by one, Christianson, to all group leaders of the SD and the minutes of a telephone call \"signed Stapf\". This is on page 131 of the English Document Book; in the German Document Book, at the beginning of the Document 3012-PS, a decree is reprinted from which I shall road. Page 224 of the German Document Book.\n\"Decree Regarding Labor Service and Labor Employment in Operational Zones of Newly Occupied Eastern Territories.\" It's an order from the Chief of the General Stiff of the Army. \"For the security of military and economical necessity in operational territories, the following order is published in agreement with the Economic Staff East.\n\"Chapter I, Labor Service, paragraph 1. All inhabitants of the operational zone between 14 and 65 years of age are subject to labor service, depending on their ability to work. After having been called up, they will have to report to the local labor authorities or any other official agency responsible in order to he registered. This labor service mag consist of work outside their normal place of residence or outside the operational zone.\"\nAfter this decree follows a telephone conversation with the Chief of the Economic Staff East, and I shall read the last sentence on the German page. That is in English: \"therefore order ...\" It's the fourth paragraph and it's on page 131 in the English.\n\"I therefore order that in the individual territories, quotas are set up which are to be fulfilled with the consent of the native administrative agencies and in the rural areas with the competent 1-A leaders pursuant to the service obligation, As far as the quotas cannot be filled by voluntary enlistments, they are to be filled by conscription.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 738, "page_number": "", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "For the realization of the service obligation, in the individual case, compulsion may be used if necessary. However, it is not permitted, that the workers are procured by collective measures of 610 (a) coercion.\"", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 739, "page_number": "611", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "That is signed \"Stapf.\" apparently, only in individual cases, in cases of extreme obstinacy, coercion can be applied, whereas collective measures of coercion are prohibited.\nUnder the same document number, there follows, after this telephone conversation, a file note which I shall pass by -- a secret letter from the Commander of the Security Police-- and then follows a letter from a Special Commander, called 4-A, most of which the prosecution has already presented, without, however, reading the heading of the letter into the record, as far as I can remember. The heading states, \"Special Commando 4-A, dated 19 March 1943, Secret. To all Commando Leaders, Personally, of SD outside Commandos.\" And therefore defendant Milch could not possibly know of the secret orders of the SD. He was no agency of the SD.\nUnder the same document number, there follows, after this letter, a File Note. It's two sheets further on -- File Note regarding a conference on the 10th of March. This is still Document 3012. There follows a new part. Have you got it in German? It is on Page 236 in German.\n\"File Notice regarding the conference on the 10th of March 1943 with the KV Chief, State Councillor, Poulkert in Rowno.\n\"Present: Major General Nagel, Wi in the South; secondly, Lt. General Bruch, Rue in the Ukraine; thirdly, KV Chief State Councillor Pouckert, Wi Staff East, Chief Group Labor and Plenipotentiary of the GBA, fourth, Oberregierungsrat Meincke, Deputy to the Plenipotentiary of the GBA at Rowno; fifth, Chief administrative Councillor Bong-Schmidt, Wi in the South, Group Chief, La in Rowno; sixth, KV Chief, Dr. Ackerman, Economic Staff South, Wi in the South, Group Chief in Rowno, temporary.\n\"State Councillor Peuckert stated in his introduction that labor employment in the German agriculture and the armament programs ordered by the Fuehrer demanded the quickest obtaining of another one million laborers from Eastern territories urgently.\"", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 740, "page_number": "", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "THE PRESIDENT:Dr. Bergold, we do not have any part of this. This is DocumentPS-3012611-A", "speakers": [ "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 741, "page_number": "612", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "THE PRESIDENT:Dr. Bergold, we do not have any part of this. This is DocumentPS-3012.\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes, Your Honor.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The part that you are reading isn't in our document books at all.\nDR. BERGOLD:But the prosecution handed it to me in my document book. The original document book is in my hands now, the one used by the prosecution. This document 3012-PS consists of a number oi individual documents, and it's the last document in this series which I am referring to.\nMR. DENNEY:It may be in Dr. Bergold's book, but it still doesn't put it in mine.\nDR. BERGOLD:Naturally, Mr. President, I had assumed that in the document book which the prosecution handed to me, everything would be contained which would also be contained in the English Document book; otherwise I would have had it copied and then would have submitted it to you in its English translation.", "speakers": [ "MR. DENNEY", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 742, "page_number": "613", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "Mr. Denney: Dr. Bergold certainly knows from the first few days of the t trial that that isn't so. We shall be glad to get the translation of this and give it to Your Honors. I don't have a copy of it here in English.\nTHE PRESIDENT:This document in the Court's document book consists of four pages. The last is merely the certificate of translation. Other than that, there are just three pages. The material that you are reading does not appear in those pages.\nMR. DENNEY:Our books are the same as your Honors.\nDR. BERGOLD:I've got 17 pages.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Of this document?\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes. Far be it from me to accuse the Prosecution of anything. I myself realize the tremendous amount of work one has to do on this sort of thing and that errors will keep in. I was merely trying to apologize to you, trying to state that I am sorry that I didn't have it copied and translated. I merely want to say that this is not my fault, but, of course, it is not the fault of the Prosecution either. There is just too much work.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Regardless of whose fault it is, all I am interested in is eventually getting a copy of what you are now putting into the record. I don't care whether it comes from you or the Prosecution, but we do want it in our document book, which we shall need for reference later.\nDR. BERGOLD:Very well, Mr. President, in that case I shall have it copied and translated into English and later on hand it over to the Tribunal, but may I perhaps continue to read from the report today so that I shall not have to repeat it afterward?\nTHE PRESIDENT:Exactly. Please do.\nDR. BERGOLD:In that case, I shall start again:\n\"State Councillor Peuckert stated in his introduction that labor employment in the German agricultural and armament program ordered by the Fuehrer demanded the speedy supply of a further 1,000,000 workers from Eastern territories urgently, German agriculture alone was in need of another 800,000 laborers, of whom up to now only 30,000 have arrived.\"\nI shall skip one sentence:", "speakers": [ "MR. DENNEY", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 743, "page_number": "614", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "\"Apart from this, the Fuehrer had ordered that to begin with the capacity of the German armament industry in the Reich itself should be exploited to the highest possible degree before such armament industries situated near tho front should be made to turn with full revolutions. It had been planned that laborers from the East, particularly for agriculture and in tho food supplies, and workers from the West, particularly experts such as are needed by Minister Speer, should be transferred to the armament industry.\"\nThen I skip one paragraph and continue:\n\"He -- State Councillor Pouker -- was fully aware of the difficulties in the way of the fulfillment of these quotas. In spite of this, it was his view that in principle in the future voluntary methods should be employed as before. In order to assure the greatest possible success for voluntary recruitment, an intensive and systematic propaganda action would have to be started. Welfare for Eastern workers in the Reich, after initial difficulties had been overcome, could now be described as perfectly satisfactory -- something of which he had convinced himself completely in two districts. This was corroborated by the fact that the sickness figures among Eastern workers had now dropped below two percent. Apart from this, Eastern workers' badges, for instance, had been deprived of their inferior significance, since every foreign worker now working in the Reich was compelled to wear a badge of nationality.\nI shall now turn to Exhibit No. 29, Document 2220--PS, dated April 12, 1943, a report from Lammers to Himmler regarding the situation in the Government General. I shall read the introduction of the document.\n\"The Reich Minister and Chief of the Reich Chancellory, Berlin. April 17, 1913. Secret.\"\nIt is Page 133 of the English document book. There are a number of remarks, and then the address, to the Reichsfuehrer-SS and Chief of the German Police, Herr Himmler. The reference is, \"The situation in the Government General.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 744, "page_number": "", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "\"Dear Hr. Reichleader:\n\"We had agreed at our conference on March 27th of this year that written texts should be worked out about the situation in the Government 614-a General on which our intended mutual report to the Fuehrer could be based.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 745, "page_number": "615", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "\"The material gathered for this purpose by SS-* Lieutenant General Krueger was submitted to you immediately. Based on this material, I have had a sketch prepared which sums up the most important points of this material and subdivides them in a way quickly to grasp and finally points out the kind of measures to be taken.\n\"The memorandum was chocked together with SS Lieutenant General Krueger, who agrees with it in full. Part of it I herewith submit to you. A further conference does not appear to be necessary unless you and Reichsleiter Bormann have some general objections to the contents, and I should like to have your immediate reply as to whether you agree to this or not. (signed) Dr. Lammers.\"\nNow, we turn to the following page:\n\"Secret. Reference: Situation in the Government General.\"\nThis is still on Page 133. Then under B, Roman Numeral II, Figure 3, which is Page 52 in the German and Page 136 in the English, there is a paragraph, \"Treatment of the Native Population.\" Page 136, Number 3.\n\"The treatment of the native population can only be led into the right channels based on a foundation of a clearcut and well-organized administration and management. Only such a foundation permits that the native population may be handled strictly if necessary, even severely; on the other hand, it can be dealt with in a big-hearted manner and may be granted certain liberties, especially in cultural respects, causing a certain amount of contentment on the part of the population.\"\nThen I shall continue with \"D\". First of all there follows 4-C, and then \"D\"; \"Measures for Improvement of Conditions,\" is the heading of the paragraph.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 746, "page_number": "", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "THE PRESIDENT:Our document book stops with the portion that you have just read, \"The Treatment of the Native Population\".\nDR. BERGOLD:I see. In that case, once again, I shall see to it that the passage in question is supplied later. I shall read this, because this passage is particularly interesting and important.\n\"The hope entertained by the Governor General following certain revelations made to him sometime ago in connection with the Lasch case, namely, that they might load to an altered course on the part 615 - a of the Governor General and an eventual improvement in the situation in the Government General, did not materialize.", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 747, "page_number": "616", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "No doubt may remain, therefore, that the first and most important prerequisite for a recovery of conditions in the Government General would be the replacing of the Governor General himself with a suitable and energetic personality who has the necessary political form\" You can see that during the supervision of the matters again proposed, one even went as far as that.\nIn 1943 it was even suggested that Governor General Dr. Frank should be removed from his position.\nNow I turn to Exhibit No. 30, Document No. 407, Roman Numeral 5, PS, dated 15 April 1943, a letter from Sauckel to Hitler dealing with labor q questions, Page 137 in the English. I shall read the third paragraph, figure 1.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 748, "page_number": "617", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "\"After having been active as plenipotentiary for the Arbeitseinsatz for one year, I have the honor to report to you that 5,638,056 new foreign workers have been added, to the German war economy between April 1st of the Iasi year and March 31st of this year.\"\nHere, in the original record, of the Tribunal, the session of January 3rd I mean, in the afternoon, a mistake has crept in, because the figure then was 6,630,056. Such a number is not contained in that document. It must be a mistake because, under figure 2, the number of workers is incorrectly stated as being 3,638,056 workers, so that there is a mistake in the record which I beg to rectify.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The prosecution made that correction when it read the document, Dr. Bergold.\nDR. BERGOLD:But then, apparently that hasn't found its proper expressio in the German record, probably by mistake.\nTHE PRESIDENT:In the Court's Document Book, it is three million.\nDR. BERGOLD:Very well. Thank you very much. In that case, I should like to come to number three of the same document, and point out that the result of the registration, for men and women, until the 7th of April has been the following:\n\"As a result of the ordinance of January 27th, 1943, 3,249,743 men and women registered.\"\nThis, gentlemen of the Tribunal, says German workers. This ordinance dea with German workers, whereas the other figure of 3,600,000 workers refers to foreigners. Finally, at the end of the document, may I draw your attention to the fact that a copy of this letter was only dispatched to the following persons: the late Reicnsmarschall Goering, Reichsleiter Bormann, Reichcminister Dr. Lammers, and Reichsminister Dr. Goebbels.\nNow I turn to Document 38-A, document No. 1913-PS, an agreement between the plenipotentiary for Labor and the German Labor Front, regarding the taking care of foreign workers.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Exhibit 38-A?", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 749, "page_number": "618", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "DR.BERGOLD: 38-A, yes; Document 1913-PS. From this document, Page 238, I should like to read, Dr. Beisiegel, page 159; thank you. I'm beginning after the words \"Fritz Sauckel\". \"For the carrying out of this agreement I order the following:\" This is on page 160.\n\"1. The supervision of all welfare measures in the realm of the employment of foreign workers is the sole responsibility of the central inspection for the care of foreign workers. Complains about bad quarters, food, deficient provision of free time activities and cultural and propagandistic care will in the future be directed by me to the central inspectorate for investigation and elimination of possible deficiencies. The labor offices and Gau-labor offices must direct complaints and protests coming to them to the locally competent office of the German Labor Front.\n\"The central inspection will inform the Plenipotentiary General for Arbeitseinsatz regarding its decisions and the measures instituted by it and their completion.\n\"2. The employment of foreign workers, their identification, equalization between the plants, transfers, supervision of practical and vocationally correc employment in the plant, the promotion of instructional measures to increase production, as well as drafting of the labor-contract regulations, the carrying out of pay regulation measures, and the supervision of the orderly paying of foreign workers, remain as formerly the task of the competent offices of the administration of the Arbeitseinsatz and Reich trusteeship.\"\nThis means that foreigners, at all times, could turn to the agencies concerned regarding any possible deficiency, and, as before, everything remained in Sauckel's hadns. I shall now turn to Exhibit No. 41, Document No. 254-PS, 7th of June 1943, a letter regarding the burning of houses in the Wassilkow district, page 175 of the English Document Book. I shall read the beginning.\n\"Paul Raab, leader, 7th of June 1944, Secret. To the Reichsminister for the occupied Eastern territories. Berlin W 35, Xurfurstendamm 134. Concerning: Letter from June 2nd 1944\", and it states.\n\"According to a charge by the supreme command of the armed forces that I burned down a few houses in the territory of Wassilkow, Ukraine, belonging to insubordinate people ordered for work-duty.", "speakers": [ "DR." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 750, "page_number": "619", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "This occupation is true.\"\nI shall now turn to the second part after that:\n\"During the year of 1942 the conscription of workers was accomplished by way of propaganda. Only very rarely was force necessary.\" I shall omit the rest of this paragraph, and continue in the second paragraph from there.\n\"That time I decided to take measures to show the increasingly rebellious Ukranian youth that our orders have to be followed. I ordered the burning down of the houses of the fugitives. The result was, that in the future peopled obeyed willingly, orders concerning labor obligations. However, the measure of burning houses has not become known, for the first time by my actions, but was suggested in a secret letter from the commissioner for the committment of labor as a forced measure, in case other measures should fail.\"", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 751, "page_number": "620", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "This, of course, shows that actually, during 1942, most recruitments were carried out on a voluntary basis. Only once was force employed, based on a secret letter, from the Plenipotentiary for Labor, a letter, of course, which was carefully hidden from any other agencies.\nNow I turn to Exhibit 21-A, which is Document No. 3721-PS, dated September the 22nd, 1945. It is an interrogation of Sauckel's and it is on page 180 of the English Document Book. The prosecution has attached a special copy of this interrogation because it had not been very legible at the beginning. From this interrogation I shall read from page 4 of the German copy a question after the very long paragraph dealing with central planning. It comes along after central planning, about the middle of the document and there, the question is \"Q. Except for Speer, they would give the requirements in general for the broad field, but in Spoor's work you would got them allocated by industry and so on.\nIs that right?\n\"A. The others I only got whatever was left because Speer told me once in the presence of the Fuehrer that I am here to work for Speer and that mainly I am his man. He mentioned it very often and all the countries are not important. It was very unnatural that process of doing these things. These smaller places, instead of ordering their workers from the next higher echelons, gave their orders to the very highest to Speer who in turn gave it down to the lower ones to me; and this was the reason for the Rotzettel system which had to be fulfilled by mo without question. In practice it turned out to be that if a factory actually didn't need any workers but Speer demanded them for that factory I had to supply these workers without being able to discuss or to tell him that it would be a waste of manpower; I just had to do it because Speer had complete domination.\"", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 752, "page_number": "", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "I shall prove through Speer that this testimony of Sauckel's is untrue.\n620-a I now turn to Exhibit 42, Document 2520-PS.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 753, "page_number": "621", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "That has also been added to the Document Book afterwards. It is now page 221. It is a statement from Dr. Wilhelm Jager. And I will just read a few introductory paragraphs, it is dated October 15, 1945, and it is in addition to the document.\n\"I, Dr. Wilhelm Jager, am a general practitioner in Essen, Germany, and its surroundings. I was born in Germany on 2 December 1888, and now live at Kottwig, Segenholz 6, Germany.\nI make the following statement of my own free will. I have not been threatened in any way and I have not been promised any sort of reward.\nOn the 1st of October 1942, I became Senior Camp Doctor in KRUPP's workers' Camps, and was generally charged with the medical supervision of all KRUPP's workers' camps in Essen. In the course of my duties it was my responsibility to report upon the sanitary and health conditions of the workers' camps to my superior in the KRUPP works.\"\nOnly this morning, Mr. President, I directed the attention of the Tribunal to the fact that Milch in connection with his work did not have anything to do with Armament, and this document also proves it. I hope, Mr. President, you will also again take this document back a minute.\nI now pass on to Document Book 2 PS. I shall read from Exhibit No. 45, Document No. 1919 PS, on page 14 of the English Document Book: \"Speech of the ReichsfuehrerSS\"; the SS group; Milch knew nothing of this; it was not conveyed to him and therefore he couldn't have known, no matter how secret it was. I referred to this, it was on page 18 of the German Document Book, where it is on page 64 of the original; there you will find the following passage, which Himmler stated was the plan with reference to the Clearing out of the Jews; and it is to be found on Page 17 of the English Document Book.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 754, "page_number": "", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "\"With reference to the Clearing out of the Jews, I also want to talk to you, quite frankly, on a very grave matter. Among ourselves it should be mentioned quite frankly, and yet we will never speak of it publicly. Just as we did not hesitate on June 30th, 1934 to do the duty we were bidden DR, BERGOLD:\nAnd this is to be found on page 14 of the original. \" - and stand comrades who had lapsed up against the wall and shoot them so we have 621 a never spoken about it and will never speak of it.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 755, "page_number": "622", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "It was that tact which is a matter of course and which I am glad to say is inherent in us, that made us never discuss it among ourselves, never speak of it. It appalled everyone, and yet everyone was certain that he would do it the next time if such orders are issued and if it is necessary.\"\nSo, you see, Mr. President, they didn't speak about this fact in SS circles, not even among themselves. But this is the first time that Himmler actually mentioned it, so, at the top, was secrecy.\nNow, I come to Exhibit No. 8, Document No. 1510 PS. It is the Decree for the creation of the Central Planning. It is on page 32 of tho English Document Book. It is stated in what is called tho English Document Book as the \"Decree for Central Planning.\" This is an error. It is not that. It is merely a Decree from the Reich Minister for Armament and Ear Production, regarding war economy and roads - I quote from it:\n\"The Reich Minister for Armament and War Production. Plenipotentiary General for Armament tasks within the Four Year Plan:\nDecree of October 29, 1943, concerning the dividing of tasks in the Ear Economy.\nThe fuehrer has given me tho opportunity to bring into unified form tho entire war production of war Economy. This is based on Paragraph 7 of the Decree of September 2, 1943, about Concentration of tho War Economy in conjunction with tho Decree of tho Reich Marshal of the Greater German Reich and Commissioner for tho Four Year Plan concerning Central Planning of April 22, 1942 (VP. 6707 6707) complemented by Decree of September 4, 1943 (VP 1129/1). Pursuant to these decrees, I am competent and responsible as Reich Minister for Armament and War Production for the supervision, direction and accomplishment of the production of the trade economy of war.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 756, "page_number": "", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "The aim of all measures can only be the further increase of armaments...\nAccordingly, I decree the following also as Plenipotentiary General for Armament Tasks with the Four Year Plan, for the different offices engaged in war economical tasks.\"\n622 a", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 757, "page_number": "623", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "MR. BERGOLD:We have now the contemplation of a war economy. The simplicity of general orders is also introduced. And the introduction of new agencies wherever it is necessary. The next paragraph is very important:\n\"I. The dividing of tasks in the Reich Ministry for Armament and War Production. The expansion of the sphere of tasks necessitates a re-organization and partly new organization of the Reich Ministry For Armament and War Production I therefore order in my capacity as The Reich Minister Plenipententiary for the different offices engaged in war economical tasks, be divided as follows:\n\"The Tasks of the Reich Ministry for Armament and War Production will be divided in the future into three large groups, namely --\"\nMR. BERGOLD:There follows something which I shall deal with very briefly, the list of agencies employed:\n\"1. tasks of coordination 2. tasks of production 3. cross section tasks.\"\nAnd then follows the offices specified for the following tasks. This is on page 33 of the English Document Book at the bottom:\n\"Individually the offices specified below have the following tasks:\na) The Office for Planning of the Plenipotentiary General for Armament under president KEHRL has, according to Decree of September 16, 1943 ZA Org. POOO/2-143, to take care of the tasks mentioned under number II, within the sphere of the Reich Minister for Armament and War Production.\nb) The Office for Armament under Major General DR. WARGER- securing of the personal and material readiness in the production of armament and war materials, especially in the spheres employment of labor questions of transport and traffic\nc) The Technical Office under Hauptdienstleiter SAUER patent matters special projects\nd) And finally, the Office for Armament Supply under State Councillor", "speakers": [ "MR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 758, "page_number": "624", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "DR.SCHIEBER: Control of orders for iron and steel Supervision of electrical engineers.\"\nDR. BERGOLD:And then there is a general department for Finance and Economy; and finally , f) the Central Department for Culture.", "speakers": [ "DR.", "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 759, "page_number": "625", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "Then we came to Roman numeral II, which I have referred to in connection with the planning office, the tasks of the principal committees and principal cartels, as well as economy and trade groups, all of which were directly under Speer; and among others they had the following tasks on this statement.\nBY THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will recess for a short time.\n(A recess was taken until 1530, 3 Feb 1947)\nDR.BERGOLD (Defense Counsel for Erhard Milch): Your Honors, first of all before I continue I should like to bring up a question. It concerns the interrogation of the witness Speer who I have asked for. As a consequence of a misunderstanding between me and Major Teich, I understood that I had the choice either of calling Speer as a witness or of receiving from him an interrogatory. I then said that I should like to call him as a witness; this was on Friday, in the presence of one of the Judges. I believed this was a preparatory discussion. However, I was just informed by the Marshal of the Court that I had not construed it correctly, Speer could not, at least at the moment, appear in this Court as a witness because the Central Commission has not given its approval.\nOn the assumption that this is now the last word, I must have the opportunity to consult with Speer at some length. On Friday I received some information from him. If outside the Court I must speak with him, then I must have a whole day at my disposal in which to do so, and consequently must ask the Tribunal to explain how Speer's testimony is to be submitted as evidence before this Tribunal. I am not entirely clear on this point yet, whether it is probably true that an interrogatory in the presence of one of the Judges is not sufficient, or whether there must be an affidavit from him probably which then is to be read in the Court. At least I cannot construe it, so I would be obliged if the Tribunal would give me its opinion on the subject.\nBY THE PRESIDENT:The witness, Speer, is in the exclusive control of the allied Control Council, and this Court is without authority to produce him in Court as a witness without consent of the Allied Control authority.", "speakers": [ "DR.", "BY THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 760, "page_number": "", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "The authority did, however, consent that he be subjected to interrogatories, and that, I believe, has been done, has it not?\n625a", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 761, "page_number": "626", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "DR. BERGOLD:No. I believe that the discussion I had with him was only a preparatory discussion, according to Major Teich who spoke to no in English; I misunderstood what ho said. Consequently, I must have the chance to consult Speer in detail. On Friday there were many questions that I really wanted to put to him, but did not have the opportunity to do so.\nBY THE PRESIDENT:If evidence is to be produced at all, it will have to be done by interrogatories which will be transcribed and made a part of the document in this case.\nThe fact that one of the members of the Court was present when the previous interrogatory was being put to him does not mean that his testimony was taken by the Court. The allied Control Council requested that a representative of this Court be present at the time the interrogatories were put to him, and Judge Musmanno volunteered to represent the Tribunal in that respect, but that did not constitute the taking of testimony before the Court be obviously.\nDR. BERGOLD:I quite understand that; in other words, I must submit an affidavit of this interrogation.\nBY THE PRESIDENT:Well, whatever you wish to submit must be in some other way than by calling the witness personally as a witness.\nDR. BERGOLD:In that case, I must ask the Tribunal to give me a day at my disposal during which I can really interrogate Speer in the presence of one of the Judges, and I must ask the Court that court reporters be present, because my secretary is not capable of taking down an interrogation correctly; I have tried that and it was not successful. There were so many errors in her report that I could do nothing with it.", "speakers": [ "BY THE PRESIDENT", "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 762, "page_number": "", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "I should then suggest, Your Honors, that if Major Teich is agreeable to this proposal, and the court is also, that that tomorrow, the witness, Spoor, in the presence of court reporters, should be interrogated; and that the record of this interrogation I shall then submit before the Tribunal. Is that agreeable to the Tribunal?\n626 a Vouty No. 2", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 763, "page_number": "627", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "THE PRESIDENT:Do you wish to be heard, Mr. Denney?\nMR. DENNEY:Just this, Your Honor, that I understand that the Court has ruled that when Dr. Bergold interrogates any of the present prisoners who were defendants in the ease before the International Military Tribunal a member of the Court will be present and assume at least from the three interrogations that have already been held, that the prosecution will be allowed to be represented. At thou time that Speer was interrogated I didn't know about it until very shortly before it happened and not knowing what the subject of the interrogation was going to be I was unable to prepare any cross interrogatories. And, in view of what Dr. Bergold tells me about his German transcript not being a very accurate, I don't know just what sort of record we will have from that. In the case of the two which were held on Saturday of the witnesses Neurath and Raeder, I believe that I was able to cover everything there that was necessary. However, there again we didn't have a court reporter to take it down although we did have the interpreter from the regular staff of Court interpreters. I would suggest that at any future interrogations that we have with these people that both German and English court reporters be assigned as well as interpreters so that all that will be necessary when we come to present the results of the interrogation to the Court, just bring the transcript up and read it into the record providing that is agreeable with Your Honors and Dr. Bergold.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The Allied Control Council merely requires that a representative of the Tribunal be present. It doesn't say that all of the judges must be present so, perhaps, that representative we could have. I think this ought to be handled just as you would be handling a deposition, questions and answers taken down verbatim and read to the Court in lieu of the testimony of the witness.", "speakers": [ "MR. DENNEY", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 764, "page_number": "", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "Did you have much opportunity to cross examine, Mr. Denney?\nMR. DENNEY:With the witness Speer, no, Your Honor.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Apparently the direct examination of Dr. Bergold is not as complete as he questions here\nDR. BERGOLD:Because as I said, I thought it was merely a preparatory investigation or interrogation.\n327 a", "speakers": [ "THE PRESIDENT", "DR. BERGOLD", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 765, "page_number": "628", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "THE PRESIDENT:Well, perhaps with the new idea in mind it would be better to start again.\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes.\nTHE PRESIDENT:And this time with competent reporters and translators and adequate cross examination producing a depostion or interrogation for the prosecution and the defense. Could that be done at all?\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes.\nMR. DENNEY:Your Honor, we will have to suspend if we did it tomorrow. Of course, Dr. Bergold knows best. If he wants to do it tomorrow I have no objection. I would appreciate it if I could get his questions at least some time in advance because its going to be easier.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Is it to be determined by submitting specific interrogations and cross examination or is it going to take the nature of an examination as if the witness were on the stand?\nMR. DENNEY:We can do it which ever way Your Honor wishes.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The latter plan is the most expeditious.\nMR. DENNEY:Yes, it certainly is.\nDR. BERGOLD:I would like to suggest that it is done in the form as if it were the hearing of a witness because if I have to write out all of the questions I would use more time. I again request more time. Therefore, I would like to suggest that we hear him tomorrow as if he were a witness.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The other members of the Tribunal agree that the best way to get this testimony is to examine this witness in the same manner as if he were on the witness stand by direct examination and cross examination then if you have forgotten some interrogation why -- I mean, if you have forgotten to put it down on paper you can still cover it. Judge Mussmano volunteered to represent the Tribunal at any time tomorrow. When will you do it?\nDR. BERGOLD:As soon as possible. Anytime is convenient to me after nine o'clock.\nTHE PRESIDENT:How about you, Mr. Denney?\nMR. DENNEY:I am sorry. I didn't hear what you said.", "speakers": [ "MR. DENNEY", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 766, "page_number": "629", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "THE PRESIDENT:At what hour. What hour would be convenient for you to attend the questioning?\nMR. DENNEY:Dr. Bergold agrees that nine thirty will be all right if that's convenient with the Tribunal.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Very well then the Court will not convene tomorrow but its business will go on as usual in taking this testimony. I presume it will take less time to do it this way than if the witness were here in Court. Now, what about the other witnesses who have been interrogated.\nDR. BERGOLD:Raedor and Neurath perhaps they can be heard or interrogated later. After Speer I should like to continue with my other witnesses and Neurath can be interrogated later should it even be necessary. I can perhaps renounce them as witnesses. I do not know yet for sure.\nTHE PRESIDENT:We will leave that question to be determined later.", "speakers": [ "MR. DENNEY", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 767, "page_number": "630", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "JUDGE MUSMANNO:I am suggesting in the interests of saving time that you night indicate to Mr. Denney the general subjects you intend to cover. Then he will be prepared with any documents which he might want to have in cross examination.\nDR. BERGOLD:I can inform him, yes. I wish to interrogate Speer about the Central Planning, about the Fighter Staff, and about the general position that Milch occupied within the German war machine.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:That doesn't leave much out.\nDR. BERGOLD:That it is, to be sure, and I think it will take quite a while, too.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Let us have it understood, Dr. Bergold, that no one will be present at this taking of testimony except those who are necessary; yourself, Mr. Denny -\nDR. BERGOLD:I shall be there alone on the condition that German reporters are present so that I do not need to bring my own secretary.\nTHE PRESIDENT:A German reporter and an American reporter and an interpreter, yourself, Mr. Denny, and Judge Musmanno.\nDR. BERGOLD:Very well, May I ask in which room this will take place tomorrow?\nTHE MARSHAL:I will let you know.\nDR. BERGOLD:Thank you.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:He will let us know the room number.\nDR. BERGOLD:I may then continue with my presentation?\nTHE PRESIDENT:One more question. Do you expect that examination to take longer than the morning? That is, will you finish it by noon?\nDR. BERGOLD:No, I believe I shall also need the afternoon.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Very well.\nDR. BERGOLD:Of course I do not know how many questions are going to be asked in the cross examination.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Well, it will take some time to transcribe it also and to get it ready to present to the Tribunal. All right.\nDR. BERGOLD:May I continue?", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "JUDGE MUSMANNO" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 768, "page_number": "631", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "THE PRESIDENT:Please.\nDR. BERGOLD:I stopped with Exhibit 58, Document 1510 PS.\n\"II, the tasks of the Principal Committees.\" I continue now in the reading from II, 12b. I read from No. 13, Section a, No. IV. That proves that the matter of assigning workers went through the main department or the principal committees. I read then the part before the concluding paragraph V. It is, I believe, the English page 38, the paragraph just before the heading \"Final Remarks\".\n\"The District Labor Offices and the offices subordinated to them have the following tasks:\n\"They accomplish the entire employment of labor in the armament economy. In these cases it is the duty of the District Labor Offices to fill manpower requisitions according to demands of the bottlenecks as well as the recruiting of aliens and manage their employment as well as the employment of prisoners of war.\n\"They guide the rising generation of their trade and work in the field of relief, such as separation compensations for people drafted into service, special relief, etc.\n\"In the case of objections from plants against measures of Labor Offices they have to call in the competent supervisory office. In a case in which uniformity of opinion cannot be achieved, the Armament Commissions decide finally.\" This, too, was, you see, a function of Speer's ministry.\nI turn now to Document Book 2b, Exhibit No. 2b, Exhibit No. 61, Document No.NOKW 247, page 99. I am afraid that is Volume 3-C, page 99. It is a long interrogation of the late defendant Goering. Goering here answers a question who would provide information. It begins \"No, Funk could give more precise information on the situation.\"\nTHE INTERPRETER:Your Honors, the document begins on page 44, which is the very first document in Book 2-B. In Dr. Bergold's index the document was falsely numbered and he is to read in the middle of this rather long interrogation.\nDR. BERGOLD:I will ask the Tribunal -- I have the entire document but the cart I wish to read is not in the English translation.\nTHE PRESIDENT:You nay read it now.", "speakers": [ "THE INTERPRETER", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 769, "page_number": "632", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "DR. BERGOLD:With your permission I shall read it now and submit it to you later.\nGoering is here discussing the fact that Speer was at his office and wanted to be Commissioner for Armament Tasks. I read:\n\"A short time thereafter Speer came to me again and suggested a Central Planning Committee, because he said he would have to coordinate matters with Economy Group 3, and so on, and since I myself wanted him to do this, because that was the correct thing to do, and because I had too much already to do with the air force, I suggested that he worked very well with Milch and for that reason he should call upon Milch for this, and not so much as my representative as Reich Air Minister, but because of his competence, and he should take care of this field of transportation and the other matters.\"\nThen I read on the next page something again which I presume I shall have to bring later to the Tribunal -- a short section.\nGoering says:\n\"In the Four Year Plan I limited myself to making my general plenipotentiary powers available. I never received any reports on the central planning, because that was not necessary at all. That was Speer's affair.\"\nAnd then one final section which I shall also submit to the Tribunal later. That is question No. 99.\n\"Q. That is not my question. My question was solely who was commissioned in the Reich Luft Ministry to coordinate and prepare the manpower in the various subterranean sectors.\n\"A. An underground factory was built, the so-called Talar(?) Work. That is the only one that I visited. No prisoners worked there. Prisoners of war, that is, concentration camp prisoners. Prisoners of war worked there and German workers. The other factories were not for the airforce, but for the ball-bearing works, and so forth.\n\"Then a program was initiated under the direction, to be sure, of Himmler and subordinate to him an engineer named Kammler, an SS General of the Waffen SS and Gruppenfuehrer. He was to expand the five or six plants that were planned for, and for these, among others also, concentration camp prisoners were to be used.", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 770, "page_number": "633", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "\"The working forces in general were made up of all sorts of elements, free workers, and prisoners. These plants which were intended, however, did not get past the planning stage, for then tunnels in Stuttgart and near Partenkirchen were taken. This matter was, in other words, Hammier's affair which he had received directly from the Fuehrer via Himmler. For the others Speer was commissioned, in which cases Milch stated the space that we needed. But I recall having sent reports on these instructions. So far as the cement works were concerned, the engineer in charge of the building wa.s Saur. That, in other words, was taken care of in Speer's Ministry. It was in part the Deputy Dorsch, and to the extent that it was a matter of providing the space necessary, it was Saur. That is to say, it was taken care of in Speer's Ministry. That is, all armament matters were coordinated, for to be sure the Reich Air Ministry had a part in it to the extent that we had to announce what we needed.\"", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 771, "page_number": "634", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "Your Honors, I wish to show through this that the large plants were as a matter of fact, only planned but never built and that Milch had nothing to do with this, aside from saying that if the capacity was built, that he could use it.\nI come now to Exhibit No. 60. It is document No. 1666 PS, Page 48 of Document Book 2-b, of 27 March 1942, Hitler's order defining Sauckel's authority. This decree is to be found on the first page of this exhibit.\n\"Decree by the Fuehrer concerning a Plenipotentiary General for the utilization of labor of 21 March 1942.\n\"In order to secure the manpower requisite for the war industries as a whole, and particularly for armaments, it is necessary that the utilization of all available manpower, including that of workers recruited abroad and of prisoners of war, should be subject to uniform control, directed in a manner appropriate to the requirements of war industry, and further that all still incompletely utilized manpower in the Great German Reich, including the Protectorate, and in the General Government and in the Occupied territories, should be mobilized.\n\"Reichstatthalter and Gauleiter Fritz Sauckel will carry out this task within the framework of the Four Year Plan as Plenipotentiary General for the utilization of labor. In that capacity he will be directly responsible to the Commissioner for the Four Years Plan.\n\"Section III (wages) and Section V (utilization of labor) of the Feich Labor Ministry, together with their subordinate authorities, will be placed at the disposal of the Plenipotentiary General for the accomplishment of his task.\n\"Fuehrer-Headquarters, 21 March 1942, the Fuehrer, Adolph Hitler:\nI turn now to document -- it received no exhibit number by the Prosecution. It is, however, in the document book asPS 1292, Page 60 of the second Document book of January 4, 1944; Page 60 of the document book.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 772, "page_number": "635", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "JUDGE PHILLIPS: Number 50 in the Prosecution document book. Exhibit 50.\nDR. BERGOLD:Then I made an error. This exhibit consists of two parts, and I made a mistake. I beg the Tribunal's pardon.\nI read from Page 102 of the German Document Book everything that stands under the date b January 19bb at the beginning of this document, 1292. It begins, \"concerning, utilization of labor, 1944.\"\nTHE INTERPRETER: Again, Your Honors, only that second part is in our document, that part that, as Dr. Bergold said, the Prosecution submitted.\nDR. BERGOLD: Again then I shall submit this part that I am reading to the Court later. I quote:\n\" Re: Utilization of labor, 1944.\n\" 1. There was a conference today with the Fuehrer at which the Plenipotentiary General for the Utilization of Labor Gauleiter Sauckel, the Reich Minister for Armaments and War Production Speer, the Chief of the OKW General Field Marshal Keitel, General Field Marshal Milch, State Secretary Backe who was entrusted with carrying on the business of the Reich Ministry for Food and Agriculature, the Reich Minister for the Interior, SS Himmler, and I were present.\"\n\"I\" in this case is Dr. Lammers. \" The Reich Minister for Foreign Affairs and the Reich Economy Minister asked before the conference that they be allowed to participate, but the Fuehrer did not permit it. As an introductory remark the Fuehrer stated: I want to know for sure: 1, how much manpower will be needed for German war production, a, to maintain current capacity, b, to increase current capacity, 2, how much manpower can be found in the occupied territories, or, by application of correct measures, can be obtained in the German Reich for increased production \"On the other hand, therefore, we have to cover losses in manpower through death, sickness, continual fluctuation in manpower, and so on, and further also we have to find additional and new manpower.\"", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 773, "page_number": "636", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "In the German text, page 3--page 104, General Field Marshal Milch stated that particularly in agriculture many women who actually were capable of working did not work because they received an allotment for their husbands who were in the army, and if they worked their pay would be deducted from this allotment as dependents so that they thought, in their primitive fashion, that they were working for nothing.\n\"On the other hand, here we must stop deducting wages from the dependent allotments, and on the other hand, it must also be determined that the women who refused to work will then not receive any dependents allowance, or at any rate, will receive a smaller one. The Fuehrer adopted no position on this question, saying that he did not want to enter into details.\"\nThis, Your Honors, is the meeting of the Central Planning Board about the four million fifty thousand workers, in which, as I have herewith established, the Fuehrer stated for the first time that four million additional workers were needed. I have already read the minutes of that other meeting.\nI come now to Exhibit 56, Document 3819 PS. It is Lammers' report on the Hitler conference of 11 July 1944, I read from the first list of those attending, because the Prosecution was of the opinion that Milch had been present.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 774, "page_number": "637", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "The Prosecution came to this conclusion on the basis of the plans of participation in this meeting, which did not actually take place. I read Page 74 \"list of proposed participants in the conference on 11 July 1944.\n1) Deputy for four Year Plan, Staatssekretaer Koerner.\n2) Reichsminsiter des Innere Staatssekretaer Dr. Stuckert.\nChef der Sicherheitspolizei Kaltenbrunner.\n3) Reichswirtschaftsminsiter: Reichsminsiter Funk.\nMinisterialdirektor Dr. Michel.\n4) Reichsminister der Finanzen: Reichsminister Graf Schwerin von Krosick.\n5) Reichsminister fuer Ruestung und Kriegsproduction: Reichsminsiter Speer.\n6) Vertreter der Wehrmacht: Vertreter des Chefs des OKW:\nGeneral Warliment.\nBegleiter Oberst Meistner.\nVertreter des Generalquatermeisters Heer:\nMinisterialdirektor Sarnow.\nVertreter des Bevollmachtigten Generals Italien:\nStaatssekretaer Landfried Vertreter des Chefs Stabes:\nOberst Hahn Fuer den Militaerbefehlhaber Frankreich:\nChef des Stabes: Oberst von Listow und Ministerialdirektor Michel.\nFuer den Militaerbefehlshaber Belgien/Nordfrankreich:\nChef des Stabes: Generalmajor Heider und Militaerverwaltungchef Reder\n7) Reichsminister des Auswaertigen: Staatssekretaer von Steengracht Botschafter Rahn Botschafter Abetz", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 775, "page_number": "", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "8) Reichsminsiter fuer Ernaehrung und Landwirtschaft: Reichsminister Backe\n9) Partei-Kanzlei:\n637-A Staatssekretaer Dr. Klopfer.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 776, "page_number": "638", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "Ministerialrat Froehling.\n10) Deutsche Arbeitsfront: Reichsleiter Dr. Ley.\nBegleiter: Pg. Bandol.\n11) GBA: Gauleiter Sauckel.\n12) Oberster Kommissar Alpenvorland:\nGauwirtschaftsberater Bilger Leiter des Arbeitsbereichs Arbeitseinsatz Dr. Parl (oder Stellvertreter) 13) Oberster Kommissar Adriatisches Kuestenland:\nOberregierungsrat Dr. Kohlhasse.\nThat is the entire list of participants. It is to be observed from this that, contrary to the allegations of the prosecution, Milch was not present.\nNow, from English Document Book 20. This is Exhibit No. 54, Document No.NOKW-017, apparently the last document in the book. Dated 25 March 1944, a speech at the conference with Air Force Engineers and Chief Quartermasters and Milch, on page 109. That is the famous long speech in which Milch allegedly made many wild remarks, which I already announced to you by my own document this morning, of 20 March, and which is my own documentary exhibit number 14. I read from this speech on page 188 at the foot of the German Document Book. It will be hard to find. It is in the German Document Book, the fifth page - or rather the sixth page. It begins roughly \"Unfortunately there are exceptions.\"\nTHE PRESIDENT:Do you know the page in the German document?", "speakers": [ "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 777, "page_number": "639", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "DR. BERGOLD:No, I cannot inform the Tribunal of that because, Your Honor, that is not indicated in my document book. Your Honor, I have found the page. It is on page 6 of the German book, page 6 of the original. It is on page 115, that is the English document book, the sixth line above the last paragraph: \"Unfortunately there are exceptions for which the Wehrmacht sector is responsible.\"\nTHE INTERPRETER:The Doctor is marking the passages which read \"Because it would be difficult to find each one of the.\"\nDR. BERGOLD:Page six of the German document, of the original, that is the page.\nTHE INTERPRETER:I believe that Doctor Bergold is misinformed. I think it is page seven.\nDR. BERGOLD:It begins at about the end of the page.\n\"Unfortunately there are exceptions for which the Wehrmacht sector is responsible. The Wehrmacht does not work as smoothly and beautifully as civilian offices. It is an error to believe that civilian offices are more bureaucratic than military offices. On the basis of my continuous and extensive experience I can assure you that exactly the opposite is true.\n\"In brief, the people arrive there and are put to work there. If any doubts exist as to whether a request is justified or not - for the people are not requested by numbers, but as electricians, blacksmiths, fitters, turners, as unskilled laborers, as foreigners - then this is settled. If it is found that the request for people is not justified, then the matter is referred to a commission, and this commission examines the facts within 24 hours. If it becomes apparent that dirty dealings are going on, my special court martial is called into play and it hands down a quick decision.\"\nYour Honor recalls I said I would call a witness who will testify that the defendant had no power of the sort that is said here. This is just a part of his wild expressions which he made in order to spur on the other workers. He did not have the power to summon a court martial.", "speakers": [ "THE INTERPRETER", "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 778, "page_number": "", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "Then on page 9 of the German original, I quote: \"Gentlemen,--\" I come now to the detailed individual points. This is a short section, perhaps I can read it into the record anyway, so we can continue.\n639-A \"Gentlemen, I come now to individual questions.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 779, "page_number": "640", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "Here is the most important question with which this present meeting is also concerned, that is to make the cooperation directly and indirectly within the Luftwaffe decisive; what we want to give you gentlemen is a very wide and strong program.\"\nOn page 10 now of the German original. Page 118 of the English Document Book, the top paragraph beginning with:\n\"Gentlemen, the most urgent and important question is the following Due to the heavy air raids on our plane factories, supply depots and similar things, have been hit to an increased extent, and in many cases destroyed. We all know that the keeping of reserves for the troops was very difficult because of the farspread fronts and the often inexpressibly stupid understanding of the troops for Germany's interests. The spare parts which had to be ordered from the supply organization of the Quartermaster General -- he received most urgent requests -- were already very many. Their request for spare parts alone amount at the moment to -- Ceyka, help me! (Ceyka: 4.2 billion) -- to 4.2 billion spare parts requests have been given to the German Industry. You know what 4.2 billion means. It is so mad and crazy that one can not quite imagine what it means. You realize that we are dealing with tremendous figures here. I was once a captain and Squadron Commander (Staffelkapitaen) myself, and it was my greatest pride that I head everything. For my squadron of twenty planes I had 500 or 600 mangetos, 1000 sets of rubber tires, etc. I am quite willing to admit that. Only I believe that just such idiots, as I was at that time, still exist today. If we do not stop this, if we do not stop this exaggerated keeping of supplies, and change it immediately, then the war will be lost through the idiocy of these people! Do not expect a captain or a major in the field to have understanding of what it means to have too many supplies.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 780, "page_number": "", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "I will skip a few sentences. It starts with the last three words on Page 118. I am skipping one sentence only.\n\"He is not in a position - technically alone - to do so, and he relies entirely upon the foreman who is always the bigger dope in this field. Such a foreman hoards spare parts, etc. enough to supply entire squadrons for the next ten years. That is his ambition.\"\nNow I skip seven sentences and continue: \"You have to find out everything for yourself, who has too much of what. You must say to your Air Force Commander and your Corps Engineers: Whoever hoards supplies must be punished immediately. By punishment, I also mean shooting, for if these people are told what is at issue here, and they still try to hide parts of their supplies or to cover them up, that is dirty dealing and a crime against Germany.\"\nYour Honors, I shall prove through General Roeter that he never gave any order that they should ever be shot. They were words on his part. He always pardoned those who are condemned to death.\nTHE PRESIDENT:We have reached the hour of adjournment. Before we adjourn the Tribunal holds, that there will be no failure on the part of the court reporters or the interpreters to have someone assigned to the taking of testimony tomorrow.\nMR. DENNEY:Your Honor, I wondered if I might take one member of my staff in there with me tomorrow.\nDR. BERGOLD:I have no objection.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Of course. The court will recess then until February 5th, the day after tomorrow.\nDR. BERGOLD:One question, Your Honor. Is it permitted that the defendant be present?\nMR. DENNEY:If Your Honor please, with reference to Dr. Bergold's request that a defendant be present, these are in the nature of interrogations and I submit that I see no reason why he should be there. He is ably represented by counsel, and I'd like to call the Court's attention to the fact that this man is a Field Marshal in the Luftwaffe and held a very high position 641 I don't know what his relationship with these people are and I don't see anything that would be served to help the case by having him there, and it certainly won't prejudice him if he is not there.", "speakers": [ "MR. DENNEY", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 781, "page_number": "642", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "He will certainly be ably represented, and a member of the court is there.\nDR. BERGOLD:Quite true. I quite understand Mr. Denny's point of view. However, if we were heard here during the intermission, he could exchange remarks with the defendant as to what other questions should be put, which if he is to be interrogated as we now have it planned, he cannot do.\nMR. DENNY:He can, certainly. Judge Musmanno had a recess the other day and if Dr. Bergold plans to take all morning as is indicated, he will have such time at noon, and certainly Judge Musmanno would be willing to give him a little time at the end to go out and clear anything up.\nDR. BERGOLD:That is quite agreeable to me.\nTHE PRESIDENT:I think opportunity will be given Dr. Bergold to consult his client during the taking of the testimony and that will be sufficient. The defendant will not be present.\nDR. BERGOLD:Then I should like to have it arranged that I might be able to speak with my defendant briefly during the noon pause because as it is according to the regulations of Major Tiech, I cannot do so without special permission. Perhaps Major Tiech would be so kind as to permit that, that at noon I might speak briefly with the defendant.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Well, if the Major isn't so inclined, the Court will direct him to afford you that opportunity. The Court will recess until the day after tomorrow, February fifth at nine-thirty.\n(The Tribunal recessed until 5 February 1947, at 0930 hours.)", "speakers": [ "MR. DENNY", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 782, "page_number": "643", "date": "05 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-05", "text": "Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of American, against Erhard Milch, defendant sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 5 February 1947, 0930-1700, Justice Toms, presiding.\nTHE MARSHAL: The Honorable Judges of Military Tribunal No. 2. This Tribunal is again in session. God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal. There will be order in the Court.\nDR. BERGOLD: (Attorney for defendant Erhard Milch).\nMay it please the Tribunal, the day before yesterday I read from Exhibit No. 54, of Document Book II C, DocumentNOKW 017. This is a long speech by the defendant which he held in front of the Fleet Engineer and Quartermasters General. It was shown from the various passages which I have read were difficult to find for the interpreters. I have now succeeded to trace the speeches in the English document book. I shall, therefore, offer the number of pages, in the English document book, of the passages which I have read.\nThe first passage was from page 115 of the English document book, and it started: \"There are unfortunately exceptions,\" up to the end of that paragraph.\nThe next passage was on page 118 of the English Document Book and it begins: \"Gentlemen: The most urgent and important question is the following:\" It went to the point of \"millions of substitute spare parts.\"\nI shall now read from page 120 of the English document book, from the passage which says: \"It is certain that in the whole period up to now, too many spare parts have been requested just in order to gather such hoards. And this in spite of the fact that not everything has been reached by far, but only very large stocks. I should like to say, with the material that you have, 20 to 30,000 could be newly built or newly equipped without further ado.\" This is as far as it goes.\nPage 122 of the English document book, it begins: \"Gentlemen:", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 783, "page_number": "644", "date": "05 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-05", "text": "In this connection I may call your attention to another important point. If I visit an office and find out that something is being hidden there, then I ask for the death penalty for such a crime today. That is a fraud. That is sabotage of the German armament industry.\" I shall show later through testimony of General Roeter that he had absolutely no authority to do this.\nI shall continue on page 124; it begins: \"It is a story in itself anyway, how idiotic the experts at the front are; in what an idiotic manner the work is often carried on in the entire military machine.\" On the same page, after the prosecution has read the sentence, it begins: \"The soldiers are not in a position, as experience has shown, to cope with those fellows who know all the answers. I shall take very strict measures here and shall put such a prisoner of war before my court martial. If he has committed sabotage or refused to work, I will have him hanged right in his own factory. I am convinced that will not be without effect.\" It will be confirmed by General Roeter that this, too, was impossible.\nI shall continue: \"Anyhow, the strangest things occur in the treatment of workers. It is said that the people collapse and then one has to find out that they have a furlough of three or four days every eight weeks. That is dirty business of the first order and treason to the country. Then perhaps a construction battalion arrives and is supposed to be put to work. The commanding officer, perhaps some over-fed grade school teacher, declares that the man must drill and must take part in sports. Damn it, the fellows are there to work so that the maximum amount of work will result. One has to act very strictly here. There was a construction battalion ordered to Regensburg. The Commanding officer was one of those scholars who said he could not billet the men in peace-time conditions; therefore, he refused to start work. Such a guy should be convicted by a court martial and hanged.\"\nThen I continue on page 126; which begins:", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 784, "page_number": "645", "date": "05 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-05", "text": "\"Gentlemen: How stupidly we act and how much we harm our own cause is evident not only in the field of spare parts but also in that of machine tools.\"\nAnd now I continue on page 129, where it begins: \"Because between our people and the people of the troops there are certain difficulties which are apparent to everybody and which could give rise to discord. Perhaps some over-fed boy comes from the troops. He leaves already at four o'clock in the afternoon to visit a girl which he has somewhere in the vicinity, and to whom he makes love. He may have all kinds of decorations on his belly, and has a rather arrogant air at the workshop. There the civilians are standing; the civilians would have been on the shift since five o'clock in the morning and would get away only after eight or nine o'clock in the evening; in addition to this, there is also the lower pay. Here it is possible, if one does not put matters right immediately, to produce a bad morale permanently. One has to iron out these differences as quickly and as smoothly as possible. The quartermaster general and GL have already agreed that we are to balance the personnel. Also above all, it is necessary that the members of the troops be treated in exactly the same way as the industrial workers. It is an inadmissible situation when such a young fellow, hale and healthy, stands around idly and does not have any real work.\"\nI continue on page 140 of the English document book. It begins: \"There are no laws of bureaucracy, there are no regulations, there is nothing at all as important as the task of winning the war. The Jaegerstab is charge with the coordination of all the possibilities which lie in the Speer Ministry in order to aid the Luftwaffe armament industry. At the moment the one big aim of all these efforts is to banish the one big weapon, the one threat which is before us from the air and to bring it into line. The second is the question of the front, first of the Eastern Front, Southern Front, and possibly, if an invasion comes, another front.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 785, "page_number": "646", "date": "05 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-05", "text": "All of the work in Germany, even for the land front, is futile if Germany is forced to her knees from the air in the next few weeks.\"", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 786, "page_number": "647", "date": "05 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-05", "text": "DR. BERGOLD:Page 152, the address by Mr. Von Seidel: \"Field Marshal, I am very grateful that today's meeting took place, because, as far as I know, it is the first time during the war that all of the Chief Quartermasters and all of the air force engineers have met with the Gentlemen of the GL and with the only recently created Jaegerstab. I put high hopes in this meeting inasmuch as the offices which are not directly subordinate to me now realize what is at stake. I am convinced that the field offices, too, the commanding authorities, will co-operate in the same way in which the offices immediately subordinate to me have co-operated earlier and since the beginning of the Jaegerstab with industry, and that they will accomplish whatever is humanly possible, for the importance of the entire operation. Defense of the Reich has now become apparent to every child. That difficulties occur with the troops, especially in the subordinate offices, is just as obvious as difficulties in subordinate industry with one of the other little men. I ask you to be convinced that we, for our part, shall do everything that is at all humanly possible in order to help the troops in such a case.\n\"Milch: My dear Seidel, I thank you very much. I also thank all of the gentlemen from the auxiliary airfields. We are slowly turning into roughnecks. I can say that quite openly. I personally am happy that for once we can do that. For sometimes we were foaming at the mouth with rage, because everything could not be done and was not allowed, and that at a time when history is weighing us, whether we were up to the job or not. I hope that you personally will take enthusiasm, which we have now away with you, and that you can free yourselves from this terrible foggy atmosphere, this bureaucracy which surrounds us all. That you, too, will now say: all right, if those fellows now act crazy, we shall play along with them, not in order to do something stupid, but in order to set up something sensible. Gentlemen, the pleasure alone of punching the bureaucrats in the nose incites me to work twice as hard as before, and I believe, the way you are built, you will do the same.\n\"We do not want to overlook one thing; holy bureaucracy, represented by the mass of all the civil servants, is a burden which is so soft --you can **ess into it wherever you want, you never meet any resistance -- but also it ***o tough it is absolutely unbelievable; it always spreads out again, just when you think it has disappeared and release the pressure.", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 787, "page_number": "648", "date": "05 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-05", "text": "There are only a few governments and a few people in the history of the world, that we know of, where one of them once succeeded in tackling this gang. One has to attack them, in a united group, however. Their only strength is their stupidity, laziness, smugness, imbecility, which they all have in common. But we, as leaders, will have to teach them that now. We shall pinch them in the body till it hurts.\nDR. BERGOLD:So far as this speech is concerned, you can see the purpose of this meeting. He wanted to expose these shirkers with these words, which he himself calls tough phrases. That's what he wanted to do. Now, Document Book 3-B of the Prosecution. I can't find it in the English Document Book. In Document Book, which is also not quite clear, it's on page 98. It seems to be an extract from the 21st meeting of the Central Planning Board,R-124. Perhaps I can help you by giving you the number of the page. It's page 1059. It's a speech by Speer on the question of Shirkers. It's page 1059 of DocumentR-124. In the index it's indexed as the 21st meeting.\nIt begins:\n\"SPEER The question of shirkers is another point which we must deal with. Ley has stated ---\nTHE PRESIDENT:Dr. Bergold, what you are reading does not appear in the English Document Book. We have the minutes of the 21st Conference and we have page 1059 of the document, but in our document book Milch is speaking, not Speer.", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 788, "page_number": "", "date": "05 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-05", "text": "DR. BERGOLD:That must be a mistake in writing. I am not 100% certain, but I examined that passage and it was a speech by Speer. There is also a speech by Milch on the same point, but this was said by Speer, and he testified to that fact as a witness.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The point is, we want to have a copy of what you are now reading furnished to us later to put into the document book.\nDR. BERGOLD:I understand that, but I think that you have the passage. May I see the English document book?\nI have received it from the Prosecution, and I shall bring it as I brought the other passages the day before yesterday, from the document book of the Prosecution and shall submit it to the court.\nTHEPRESIDENT? You will see that we get a copy of what you are about to read.\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes, sir.\n\"Speer: The question of slackers is another point which we must deal with. Ley has stated that, where there were factory doctors and people are examined by these doctors, the figure of illness lowers by 1/4 or 1/5. SS and police could easily be rough here and arrest the people who are known to be slackers and send them to concentration camps. There is no other way. It need only happen a few times and everybody talks about it. 10,000 --\"\nThis is Page 1062 in the German Document Book. \"10,000 men fluctuate. You may suppose that half of them fluctuate with justification. The other half may be slackers. These slackers he have exactly the same way in the Army, the Navy, etc. They go from one office to the next. These anti-social elements should be given heavy work, and whoever runs away from that, will be sent to the concentration camp. That the police can do with its present force.\"\nI shall now read Sauckel's speech which follows. I will read one sentence which begins, \"The Fuehrer said this.\" The tenth line.\n\"This is what the Fuehrer said. If the French are not inclined to do so willingly, I shall recall the 800,000 prisoners of war. If they are well disposed, the French women may join their husbands in Germany and 649 work there.\"", "speakers": [ "THE", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 789, "page_number": "650", "date": "05 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-05", "text": "That points out, Your Honors, that first of all at least 800,000 Frenchmen volunteered to go to the Reich because it was agreed that for every French volunteer they were given, one prisoner of war was to be released. At least 800,000 Frenchmen went voluntarily to work in the Reich in order to take over from there prisoners of war, and the figure of Sauckel of 200,000 has been proved to be incorrect.\nSecondly, if Hitler later ordered forced labor, this happened because the prisoners of war were released conditionally. That is to say, in case of an emergency in France they could be recalled. Likewise from France German prisoners of War are also released conditionally by the French.\nI shall now turn to the last book from which I shall read today. This is Prosecution Book 4. It is Exhibit No. 48D, R124, Hitler conference of 7 April 1944, and I shall read from Page 75 of the English document book the passage which begins -- it is after the figure 17 -\"suggested to the Fuehrer.\"\n\"Suggested to the Fuehrer that, due to lack of builders and equipment, the second big building project should not be set up in German territory, but in close vicinity to the border on suitable soil, preferably on gravel base and with transport facilities, on French, Belgian or Dutch territory. The Fuehrer agrees to this suggestion if the works could be set up behind a fortified zone. For the suggestion of setting this plant up in French territory speaks mainly the fact that it would be much easier to procure the necessary workers. Nevertheless, the Fuehrer asks that an attempt be made to set up the second works in a safer area, namely in the Protectorate. If it should prove impossible there, too, to get hold of the necessary workers, the Fuehrer himself will contact the Reichsfuehrer SS and will give an order that the required 100,000 men are to be made available by bringing in Jews from Hungary. Stressing the fact that the building organization of the Industriegemeinschaft Schlesien-Silesia was a failure, the Fuehrer demands that these works must be built by the O.T. exclusively and that the workers should be made available by the Reichsfuehrer SS.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 790, "page_number": "651", "date": "05 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-05", "text": "He wants to hold a meeting shortly in order to discuss details with all the men concerned.\"\nThat is the conclusion of my reading from the document books. I have quite a few documents which I shall submit for the record later on. Nor will I now read from book 5 of the Prosecution, which is the whole complex of the Dachau experiments, because I want to deal with that in connection with the witnesses I shall call in. I hope I shall have the Court's permission to do so. I would then, if I may, call the witness Koerner.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 791, "page_number": "652", "date": "05 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-05", "text": "THE PRESIDENT:The witness may be produced.\nMR. DENNEY:Your Honor.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Mr. Denney.\nMR. DENNEY:If Your Honors please, I just got the advice this morning from the Secretary-General this witness is going to be called. My understanding is that we are supposed to be advised twenty-four hours in advance. We certainly are willing to waive the notice in this case, but I would appreciate it if Dr. Bergold would advise the Secretary-General in writing in the approved manner, and the Secretary-General will advise me twenty-four hours prior to the time the witness is to be called. Dr. Bergold told me that he will tell me, but I don't want to rely on that. The prescribed procedure is that he will notify the Secretary-General in writing, so we can be advised, twenty-four hours prior to the time the witness is going to take the stand. I would rather rely on the usual channels.\nDR. BERGOLD:May I say something about this. I was given the list, and asked to write into the list, on which day and which hour I shall call the witness. I have done so. I thought that this would have been the information desired. I believe that that was the understanding. I thought that came from the Secretary-General. It must have been a misunderstanding.\nMR. DENNEY:The Secretary-General may have sent something to Dr. Bergold but nothing to me. I am just asking that he advise me when he is going to call his witnesses and in accordance with the rules.\nDR. BERGOLD:I will do so in the future.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The Court wishes to say to the Secretary-General that he must insist on this regulation.\nPAULKOERNER, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:\nTHE PRESIDENT:The witness will raise his right hand, please, and repeat after me: I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.\n(The witness repeated the oath)", "speakers": [ "PAUL", "MR. DENNEY", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 792, "page_number": "653", "date": "05 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-05", "text": "THE PRESIDENT:You may sit down.\nDIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. BERGOLD:\nQ.Witness, will you please give the Court your full name, Christian end second name, your date of birth, and your former occupation?\nA.My name is Paul Koerner. I was born on 2 October 1893. My position was Undersecretary of State of the Prussian Ministry of State, and, from October 1936 onward I was, in addition, the Secretary of the Four Year Plan.\nQ.Witness, do you know the defendant Milch?\nA.Yes.\nQ.Is he present in this court?\nA.Yes.\nQ.Will you point him out to me?\nDR. BERGOLD:Now I would like to ask to show in the record that the witness had identified the defendant.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The record will indicate that the witness has identified the defendant.\nBY DR. BERGOLD:\nQ.Witness, since when do you know Mr. Milch?\nA.I know for certain that I met him first in 1928.\nQ.Do you know what Milch was doing at the time?\nA.Milch was the director of the German Lufthansa.\nQ.Did you have connections with him officially, or how did you meet him?\nA.I met him in 1928 when I saw Hermann Goering in his work, and helped him in that work. Hermann Goering was then the Deputy of the Reichstag, and furthered, as a special task, the interests of aviation.\nQ.Did he meet the defendant for that purpose?\nA.He occasionally met Goering.\nQ.What purpose did these meetings serve?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 793, "page_number": "654", "date": "05 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-05", "text": "A.As Goering presided over the Reichstag Committees on aviation on behalf of the Party, he informed himself, whenever it was necessary, on these questions.\nQ.What was the purpose of these conversations?\nA.In this conversation he merely discussed German civil aviation, and the work of German aviation in the International field.\nQ.In these talks was secret armament discussed at all?\nA.Never.\nQ.Were these talks prior to 1933?\nA.As I said before, occasional conversations took place after 1928, and only when it was necessary to do so.\nQ.After 1933 did you have connections with the defendant in your official capacity before the war broke out?\nA.We did not meet in our official capacities. Our field and the work were completely separated from one another.\nQ.Did there at that time exist official connections between tho Four Year. Plan and the General Inspector of the Lufthansa, as well as the other Secretary of State for Aviation?\nA.There was no official contact between those authorities.\nQ.When did you and the defendant Milch contact each other officially again?\nA.Only when I was called to the Central Planning Special Board in the Spring of '42.\nQ.By whom was tho Central Planning Board created, and who ordered it?\nA.The Central Planning Board was created in the Spring of 1942 on order by Speer, who had conferred with Hitler on this issue previously.\nQ.Why was the defendant Milch taken into the Central Planning Board?\nA.As far as I can remember the Fuehrer wished that Milch should join this committee.\nQ.Who issued the decrees?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 794, "page_number": "655", "date": "05 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-05", "text": "A.As far as I Can remember, the legal decree has not been issued at all. All that happened was that Goering's consent for the creation of this committee was secured, and it was the natural course of that because the basic task of the Central Planning Board was a distribution of raw material, which up to that time was managed by the Four Year Plan in collaboration with the Reichsministry of Economics.\nQ.What purpose was there in taking you into the Central Planning Board.\nA.It was obvious that Goering demanded that I should join the Central Planning Board, because up to that time I supervised the distribution of raw material as Undersecretary of State in the Four Year Plan. Particularly I was to look after the interests -- the actual interest of the Four Year Plan.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 795, "page_number": "656", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "QI would now ask you to describe carefully what tasks the Central Planning Board had to execute.\nAAs I said before, the Central Planning Board was created in order to supervise the distribution of raw materials. That means that the Central Planning Board generally met every three months, in order to arrange the distribution for the next quarter and to establish it.\nQDid the Central Planning Board also have the task of distributing labor?\nANever. I have been asked this quite often before, and. I have always spoken about this in detail. Once it was before the Tribunal, and in repeated interrogations.\nQBut, witness, there were meetings within the Central Planning Board on the question of the distribution of labor. Why were these called together, and what purpose did they serve?\nAThese talks took place, yes.As far as I remember, in 1943 and particularly in 1944, the Central Planning did deal with those questions, because Speer had now become responsible for the whole German economic system, and he wanted to be informed on this particularly vital question, especially in reference to his armament industry.\nQDid Sauckel attend these meetings?\nAAs far as I can recall, Sauckel was present.\nQDid the Central Planning Board have the right to give orders to Sauckel concerning the distribution of labor?\nAThe Central Planning Board had not the right to give Sauckel any orders or rules. Such orders were never given. As I said before, these meetings were held purely for purposes of information and particularly, because Speer wanted to be informed on the particularly urgent questions and wanted to form an opinion and impression on the whole position. As is well known, there did not exist a very good relationship between Speer and Sauckel. Speer wished in these talks to be informed on the whole complex of these matters in order, if and when necessary, to call attention to mistakes.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 796, "page_number": "657", "date": "05 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-05", "text": "QDid Speer attempt to be able to give Sauckel orders?\nAThis attempt was made by Speer in 1942, but he never succeeded. For that reason, there was once a conversation in Hitler's presence between Speer and Sauckel. Hitler took Sauckel's part, and that settled the question once and for all.\nQThe Central Planning Board, however, did discuss matters of small numbers of labor. Can you recall that once you discussed French smelting workers?\nAIf such questions were brought up in Central Planning Board, it was only in order to find a solution in particularly difficult cases of bottlenecks. As far as I can recall, this case that you just mentioned, was as I have described it just now.\nQWitness, I shall now give you a so-called business order of the Central Planning Board which comes from the document book of the Prosecution. I would ask you -\nMR. DENNEY:May we know what the witness is being shown?\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes, certainly. It is a letter from Schieber, dated 20 October 1942, page 3044 of the document bookR-124. It is in document book 3-B.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Did you give us the page number, Mr. Denney?\nMR. DENNEY:It is page 1 of document book 3-B.\nBY DR. BERGOLD:\nQWitness, did you read those documents?\nAI have read them for the first time now. I certainly did not know up until this moment this letter which I am alleged to have signed, and I may say that I certainly did not sign this letter.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Dr. Bergold, the document that we are looking at does not purport to be signed by this witness, but by Walter Schieber.\nDR. BERGOLD:Would you go a few pages further, your Honor? There is an accompanying letter. The statute is attached to this letter, and it says Milch, Speer, Koerner. I don't know in what sequence they are.\nTHE PRESIDENT:All right, we have it on page 3.", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "BY DR. BERGOLD", "MR. DENNEY", "Q", "A" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 797, "page_number": "658", "date": "05 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-05", "text": "BY DR. BERGOLD :\nQWitness, what do you think was the history of this document, if you have not signed it?\nAI could well imagine that Speer ordered Schieber, who worked on these things for him, to draw up such a letter, such statutes, and after Speer had taken notice of it and a proved it, he gave permission to circularize it. I must assume that the signatures of the three members of the Central Planning Board were noted on the letter, and that Speer as certain to have intended later to obtain our signatures, but it is definite that this never happened, for I would certainly recall such a letter, without a doubt.\nQWitness, would you have signed these statutes because you agreed with the purposes and aims of Central Planning?\nAAs I can see the statutes now, I would never have been able to sign them without Goering's consent, as it represents a very essential change in our original tasks. The Central Planning Board, as I said before, was there only to distribute raw materials, and if it had ever been given such an important task as is contained in those statutes here, Goering would have had to give his consent first.\nQWithin the Central Planning Board, was the extension of powers ever discussed?\nANever. Should it have been discussed, I would certainly recall this whole business now, and surely these statutes would have been submitted to me.\nQWas the question of statutes ever discussed in the Central Planning Board?\nAI can recall very well that, when the Central Planning Board was created, I was the man who pointed out to Speer and asked Speer whether it would be right to draw up some statutes for the Central Planning Board. Speer declined and pointed out that this would not be necessary, as the task of distributing raw materials was quite clearly defined.\nQWitness, you said that you represented the interests of the Four Year Plan?", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 798, "page_number": "659", "date": "05 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-05", "text": "AYes.\nQWhat did Milch have to do with the Four Year Plan?\nAAs I said before, nothing at all. The tasks of the Four Year Plan were in a completely different field from those of Milch, and thus, we could not have had anything to do with each other.\nQI shall now talk about Sauckel. Who gave Sauckel the order to be Plenipotentiary for Labor?\nAIn the spring of 1942 Sauckel was appointed as Plenipotentiary for the Distribution of labor.\nQWould you speak a little more slowly, witness.\nASauckel, in the spring of 1942, by the Fuehrer's decree, was appointed Plenipotentiary for the Distribution of Labor. Formally, Sauckel was, on the basis of this decree, under the Four Year Plan. In reality, however, Sauckel had nothing to do with the Four Year Plan, as he received his orders directly from Hitler.\nQThis formal subordination of Sauckel to the Four Year Plan, did that lead to a connection with the Central Planning Board?\nANo, in no respect.\nQWho was responsible for the hiring of workers?\nAOnly Sauckel.\nQWho was responsible for the recruitment?\nAOnly Sauckel.\nQTransport?\nAOnly Sauckel.\nQBilletting?\nAAs far as I know, there existed between Sauckel and the German Labor Front an agreement which was responsible for the social care of foreign workers. I cannot give any more precise information, because the details are not known to me.\nQWas the German Labor Front to be responsible for billeting, feeding, health services, payment, clothing, leisure, and recreation?", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 799, "page_number": "660", "date": "05 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-05", "text": "A.As I said before, I am not aware of the details of that agreement, but in any case I know that the whole of the social care was looked after by the German Labor Front.\nQ.Was this to the advantage or disadvantage of the foreign workers?\nA.As far as I know, it was only to their advantage.\nQ.What did you hear about the treatment of foreign workers in Germany?\nA.I know nothing of any complaints. I never received any complaint.\nQ.In what way did Sauckel bring the workers to the Reich? Were they brought on the basis of force or on the basis of volunteers?\nA.As far as I knew, these workers came completely voluntarily to the Reich.\nQ.Were there agreements with the French Government?\nA.I do not know the details of such agreements. I only know what is known generally and what was published in the press.\nQ.Did you hear that between French prisoners of war and French workers who volunteered to go to Germany there was an exchange arranged and carried out?\nA.As far as I can remember there was between Sauckel and the French Government an agreement which arranged for an exchange between prisoners of war and French workers.\nQ.Witness, I have just been asked to have a half-minute interval between question and answer and vice versa so that the interpreters can manage better. Will you please observe this.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 800, "page_number": "661", "date": "05 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-05", "text": "QWitness, do you recall that, in the meeting of 1 March 1944, Sauckel said that from among the 5,000,COO foreign workers, hardly 200,000 came voluntarily to the Reich? Do you know that?\nAThat question has been put to me in various interrogations, and therefore I knew it. I do not doubt that Sauckel, in a meeting, has said such a thing. If he said so, he based himself, without doubt, not on facts.\nQIs it known to you that before Sauckel, a bigger number of foreign workers came, in bigger numbers, to the Reich?\nAYes, I know that.\nQCan you tell the Court what figures were approximately involved?\nAI can't give figures at this point very precisely, but in any case, in the German distribution of labor, even before Sauckel took over that assignment, there were always a considerable number of foreign workers. These workers were -- all of them -- recruited on the voluntary basis and brought to Germany.\nQWitness, the term \"considerable\" is a bit vague. It is quite understandable that you can't be speaking in terms of exact numbers, but are the figures about 200,000, or much bigger?\nAIf my memory serves no right, it is a very much bigger figure. It may have, as far as I can remember, gone beyond the million limit.\nDR. BERGOLD:May it please the Court, I would like to ask something. I should like to give the witness a passage of the 54th meeting of the Central Planning Board of 1 March 1944, which is not yet in the document books of the prosecution, and which I will submit in my new document book. This passage I was given only on Saturday. It hasn't been possible since Monday to obtain copies from the department concerned. The Secretary General and I have made every effort, but there was another, more urgent, work to be done at the American authorities. For that reason the translation is not ready yet. I would like to ask permission to be allowed to read this passage to the witness, so that it may be in on the records, and perhaps tomorrow or in a very few days, I shall submit the original.", "speakers": [ "A", "DR. BERGOLD", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 801, "page_number": "662", "date": "05 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-05", "text": "May I do so?\nMR. DENNEY:If Your honor please, the document doesn't seem to be very long, and perhaps it's about time for the Court's usual recess we could have it translated into English. The only thing that appears here is in German. During the recess we can call upon one of the interpreters to translate it into English and have it facilitate the matter for everyone concerned. It's just about a page.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Well, the Court will take its recess, and will you advise the Court when the translation has been finished and we will resume.\nMR. DENNEY:Yes, Your honor.\nMARSHAL:This Tribunal is recessed for approximately 15 minutes.\n(A recess was taken)", "speakers": [ "THE PRESIDENT", "MARSHAL", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 802, "page_number": "663", "date": "05 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-05", "text": "QMr. Witness, I shall now read to you the statement made by Gauleiter Sauckel during the session of the 1st of March 1944. Sauckel says: \"I would like to call your attention again to the question of volunteers and the whole working of the French labor assignment. The labor program has never been carried out in France on a voluntary basis.\"\nMr. Witness, you heard the statement by Sauckel according to which in France there was never a recruiting of workers on a voluntary basis. What do you say to that statement by Sauckel; is it correct, or is it not correct?\nAI can't imagine that this statement made by Sauckel is true.\nQWhat do you think was his aim at the time to make such a statement; do you have any idea about that matter?\nAI can only imagine that he made such statements in order to shift the guilt for not having fulfilled those requirements and to shift the responsibility on other people's shoulders and to clear himself thus.\nQWas it known to you that Speer made certain remarks to him in that connection, or reproaches?\nAIt was known to me repeatedly that Speer reproached Sauckel heatedly regarding the methods of his work. Sauckel frequently made exaggerated reports of the figures.\nQWhat do you think was the attitude of the Central Planning toward these reports?\nA.The Central Planning did not have any attitude whatever concerning these reports; only as I mentioned before, Speer considered the Central Planning as a purely informational center for the purpose of getting a clear picture of the whole situation.\nQDid they believe these reports to be true?\nANo, nobody believed him. What was the reason why Speer wanted to inform himself on the subject in order to be able to get an absolutely clear picture, and to be able to report to the Fuehrer concerning the measures Sauckel took; and also to be able to prove to the Fuehrer that what Sauckel said very often did not correspond with the facts.", "speakers": [ "A", "A.", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 803, "page_number": "664", "date": "05 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-05", "text": "QWhat was Hitler's attitude toward those reports?\nAThat I do not know.\nQThank you. Witness, do you know the secret decrees issued by Himmler to his Police Office and to the SD, Security Service, concerning the cruel treatment of foreign labor; were they known to you?\nA.They were not known to me.\nQDo you know the complaints which Rosenberg made concerning the work carried out by Sauckel, and were they known to you?\nANo, I don't know anything about that either.\nQWitness, Were the conditions in Poland known to you. Concerning the Polish workers, did you ever receive such information from the SS or other sources, as for instance, from Lammers?\nAI never received such information.", "speakers": [ "A", "A.", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 804, "page_number": "665", "date": "05 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-05", "text": "QDo you know if Milch, I mean through reports received through Sauckel, knew of these conditions or if he ever learned about the conditions during the recruitment of these foreign laborers?\nA.No, I don't believe so. If so, such reports are not known to me either.\nQSauckel, with an affidavit, said that he was to report to the Central Planning; is that correct?\nAI do not know anything about it, because such information, had I received it, would have been known to me even today.\nQI shall now proceed to one of the documents of the prosecution. Document Book 1 B. This is exhibit No. 30, Document 407 VPS, 15 April 1943, which is a letter from Sauckel to Hitler concerning questions of labor. In this letter Sauckel explains that now French laborers were to come to the Reich under the same terms and conditions as the former laborers. He reports that he had gotten in touch with the OKW and he asks that 10,000 Belgian prisoners of war be placed under the same status as the French are. Does that concern the exchange of those laborers who came to the Reich on a voluntary basis with PW's.\nAI do not know that letter and therefore I do not know the whole matter. However, I can imagine that Sauckel was looking for something similar and was trying to carry out something similar with what had been carried out in France by an agreement.\nQDid the Air Ministry General direct his applications for labor to the Central Planning or did the(air-force industry or) the Luftwaffe industry ask for or require labor through another channel? What do you know about that?\nQThe industry passed the labor requirements to the labor offices directly.\nQDid the Central Planning Board never receive requests from industry for labor assignments?\nAAs far as I remember, never, and of course, it would have been impossible that the Central Planning could actually fill such requirements of the various industrial branches, because the Central Planning did not have the task to supervise the labor distribution.", "speakers": [ "A", "A.", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 805, "page_number": "", "date": "05 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-05", "text": "QWitness, you mentioned before that Speer did not believe the numbers mentioned by Sauckel. Could you tell me what Milch's attitude was concerning this matter?\nAAs far as I can remember the attitude of Milch was the same as Speer's.\nQI shall now proceed to the Milch case or to the later happenings which happened on the 16th day of February 1943. This Was during the 32nd conference of the Central Planning Board. The happenings are described in Document Book of the Prosecution--Document Book 3 A. It's a conference, the 31st meeting, Document No.R-124. The seventh happening in the English index of the 32nd meeting -- 33rd meeting -- it was page 22, 98 in the original English Document Book 3 A. Milch speaks about Russian prisoners of war and that these prisoners of war were used in France. The original page of the document is 2298 and which is on page 34 of the English Document Book.\nTHE PRESIDENT:What page number?\nDR. BERGOLD:It's on page 34, Your Honor.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Of the original document?\nDR.BERGOLD: 2298, Your honor. Milch is talking about Russian prisoners of war having been used in the flak or anti-aircraft artillery. Do you know what was Milch's attitude concerning this matter? Was he for it or against it?\nAIt's very difficult for me to determine, after such a long time and to remember such a single case. If I do remember that, I would, of course, have to remember very vaguely that Milch was against such an assignment with respect to his decision; of course, for the time being I can't be very sure about it.\nQI now give you this passage and I will show it to you so that you can read it. (Witness is handed document).\nAThe contents appear there. What I can remember from memory -\nQHowever, doesn't this sentence, \"We made the request or we requested--\" does that not mean that he requested it, or what else does it mean? -666", "speakers": [ "DR.", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "Q", "A" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 806, "page_number": "", "date": "05 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-05", "text": "AI can't imagine that Milch could have made such a request and this is a general expression that was used there.\n-666a", "speakers": [ "A" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 807, "page_number": "667", "date": "05 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-05", "text": "QThank you. Witness, do you remember that in the general conference of the Central Planning Board there was talk about shirkers?\nAYes, indeed.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 808, "page_number": "668", "date": "05 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-05", "text": "Q.What measures did the Central Planning Beard take against these shirkers.\nA.The Central Planning could not take any steps. I can remember however that this matter -\nQ.Was there an agreement? Did they come to a solution?\nA.As I mentioned before, the Central Planning Board could not take any measures and could not come to a solution. When there was any such question in the Central Planning Board, then it was not at all difficult then to Inform one's self about these matters.\nQ.Do you know decrees by Milch to subordinate the Wehrmacht part or to the industry which ordered a murder like hanging or shooting or a cruelty against foreign laborers, P**s, or German workers?\nA.I do not know of any such decrees, and I can't imagine that Milch over could have given such a decree because he was not empowered to do so.\nQ.Did Milch ever send anybody to the concentration camp?\nA.No, I don't know anything about that, either, and I can' t imagine that.\nQ.In the conferences of the Central Planning Board there were minutes. Were these minutes ever controlled by the responsible agencies?\nQ.I do not know anything about these verbatim minutes, and if they were controlled after the conferences. I doubt it very much if they were controlled again thereafter.\nQ.Do you remember that during the session of the first of March 1944 Milch made the statement that Russian officers who more prisoners and tried to escape were shot upon his orders ?\nA.What I know is that Milch himself had no possibility whats over to issue such orders.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 809, "page_number": "", "date": "05 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-05", "text": "If he ever made such a statement during one of the conferences of the Central Planning Board -if Milch ever made such a statement, that is, then it was, of course, gener 668a ally speaking.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 810, "page_number": "669", "date": "05 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-05", "text": "Q.What do you mean by \"generally speaking\"? Did he mention measures taken by some other agency or by his own agency?\nA.As far as I can remember, Milch very often reported on measures taken by other agencies and very often he mentioned decrees by Hitler, and he informed those people of the Central Planning Heard there. It is possible that this statement made my Milch was also that ho informed the people of the Central Planning Board concerning the decrees issued by Hitler.\nQ.Did it over occur during conferences of the Central Planning Board that Milch, when he announced such decrees, mentioned those and what orders were given to the secretaries.\nA.Milch, as far as I can remember, was not very careful with his statements. As far as I can remember, when he reported decrees by the Fuehrer very often he used the \"I' in this particular sense. It was known to me and as a friend I often pointed out -- or I pointed out to Milch that he should be more careful when he quotes Goering and Hitler. in this small circle, I said, there is no danger whatsoever that someone might misunderstand such statements. However, one never knows such statements cannot be misunderstood by other people who are not as reliable as we are. That could be interpreted in the wrong sense, which, of course, bears the danger of a wrong interpretation of Milch as a person.\nQ.Is it correct that in such cases the secretaries were often asked to change or to leave out such passage, so that one couldn't know who mas spoken about?\nA.This did not only happen once, as far as I know, but many times that both Speer as well as Milch, when statements were made or criticisms were made, that they asked the secretaries that they were not to put those statements the way they were into the minutes.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 811, "page_number": "", "date": "05 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-05", "text": "I remember that Speer once said, then at least remove the word \"Fuehrer\" or \"Hitler\".\n669a", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 812, "page_number": "670", "date": "05 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-05", "text": "Q.Is it correct that Milch very often used strong words?\nA.That --- yes, indeed. Not only I can say that, but I am sure other people will donfirm that. Milch was very often somewhat excited, over-temperamental, and we always said to each other that Milch could never get rid of his old lieutenant attitude, Whoever know him always valued his statements accordingly. An in this particular small circle it was natural that such statements were interpreted to correspond with the temperment of Milch.\nQ. When Milch spoke concerning shooting and hangings, during such statements was that taken seriously?\nA.I don't believe that any one of us considered this seriously for the very simple reason that he did not have the right and he was not empowered to make such shootings and to issue such decree 3. Did Milch later on apologize when he made such statements, or what did he do when ho spoke to someone in such strong words?\nA.I know of many cases when Milch, when he couldn't control himself and used strong words against one or the other of those present, that after the session, after the end of the conferences he walked up to the man and he told him not to take his words so tragically.\nQ.Is it not true that such outbursts of Milch occurred, after his accident in Stalingrad, that is, when his car came under a locomotive?\nA.His temperament outbursts- undoubtedly happened immediately after this accident, and they were considerable. During the last few days of the war we said to each other, \"How is it possible that Milch can let himself go in such a way?\" We all know, however, what the reasons were for his situation.\nQ.That happening in Stalingrad was early in 1943, wasn't it?\nA.Yes, it was during the fighting for Stalingrad.\nQ.I shall now proceed to the Jaegerstab. Could you tell us w purpose the Jaegerstab served?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 813, "page_number": "671", "date": "05 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-05", "text": "A.As far as I can remember, and as far as I know, the Jaegerstab was created and ordered to produce as many defense planes as possible.\nQ.Did the fighter staff also have the purpose to remove the air armament from the cycle of Goering and transfer it to the Speer Ministry?\nA.Yes, as far as I know, and I heard that that was going to happen, as far as Speer was concerned, at least.\nQ.Is it known to you, furthermore, that Milch already at the time of the creation of the Jaegerstab, wanted to resign from his positions?\nA.Statements made by Milch to be able to withdraw from his positions, I heard lots of times. I believe that such statements had already been made much earlier. Then in 1943 and 1944 these statements occurred over and over again, particularly due to his physical condition. He noticed it himself that he couldn't possibly cope with all the tasks which were put on his shoulders, due to his particular disease as a result of the accident.\nQ.Is it known to you that Milch at the time did not want to take the job of Air Ordnance Master General?\nA.As far as I can remember, yes. That was after the death of Udet, when this assignment was offered to him and he told both Goering and Hitler that he did not want to take it, and that it would be more correct to give this job to some one else. I believe that he mentioned one name of some one who could be used for this particular job.\nQ.Is it correct that within the Jaegerstab, when they discussed the results, not Milch but Sauer reported on the results of the work of the Jaegerstab?\nA.Of course, I cannot make enact statements concerning this matter, because Goerieg at that particular time always was in his 671a headquarters.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 815, "page_number": "672", "date": "05 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-05", "text": "However it is known to me that at that time Sauer very often reported to Goering, and I can also remember very clearly that I was wondering at the time that Milch at that time never reported to Goering.\nQ.I just want to see if I forgot a question, Your Honors. I think we are reaching the end now. Was Milch in a position to address himself to the OKW, OFM, and OKL in his position as a member of the Central Planning Board?\nA.No, this is absolutely impossible. I would have liked to see that agency which would have taken orders from the Central Planning Board.\nQ.I shall now proceed to the 21st session of the Central Planning Board. It is document book 3b of the Prosecution. This is the session of 30 October 1942, and the English index on the 7th page of the index in book 3b, it is the second item from the top, the 21st meeting. This concerns pages 1054, 1055, and 1056. Witness, in that session Sauckel spoke and said that he wanted to have direct supervision over the prisoners of war. Filch thereupon told him that the correct channel, or the correct way to do it, would be that all the Stalags would be transferred to him. The Wehrmacht makes these people prisoners and as soon as they are relinquished, the first delivery then goes to your organizations, and everything is O.K.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 816, "page_number": "673", "date": "05 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-05", "text": "Court No. 2 (lrz) Sauckel said, \"Yes, but we do not have sufficient personnel for guarding the prisoners,\" and Milch:\n(The Wehrmacht should have to provide you with that.) That is 1056 of the original -- yes, on page 69 of the English Document Book, Your Honor. He just said, \"Milch: The man who acts, there for you can wear a uniform all right and be a soldier. Only his superior will not be Herr Reinecke, but Herr Sauckel.\" Now, do you understand. that question, Witness?\nA.The request made by Sauckel was impossible to be so, so that those statements could be an opportunity in order to criticize him about this particular requirement. I can not understand it in any other way.\nQ.What do you mean by criticize? May I understand your statement in such a way that at the time you took it in such a way that the statement made by Milch was not serious?\nA.No, his statement was never taken seriously; such request would not have been so anyway.\nQ.Did not Speer, when he joined in a conference of the Central planning Board, when he had a discussion with Sauckel , always call Milch to attend those?\nA.Yes, it had been done repeatedly. If often occurred that when Speer in order to get through with certain important thin s, that he called upon Milch to help him.\nQ.According to the documents around 1943 the French Government issued the Amalgamation for work. You remember he spoke about that matter before?\nA.Yes, I can remember that vaguely, that the French Government took such a measure.\nQ.Do you know if that decree of the French Government was a legal thing, or an illegal one?\nA.The French Government order was a legal procedure I am sure.\nQ.In the affidavit General Fieldmarshal Milch said that according to the Fuehrer's order to Kluge and to Speer. As to Speer, was that made here in his capacity as Rearmament Minister, or as member of the Central Planning Board?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 817, "page_number": "", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "A. No. not as member of the Central Planning Board only as a Rearmament Minister - 673a)", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 818, "page_number": "674", "date": "05 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-05", "text": "Q.Do you know if Milch over made a report to Hitler concerning the general construction situation?\nA.No, I don't know about that.\nQ.Who was assigned the job of distributing labor to the various factories, and to the final factories?\nA.The working organization -- or rather the Labor Offices.\nQ.Do you know that Milch around 1943 told Hitler that the war was lost?\nA.Yes, indeed, I can remember that very well. I can remember that Milch had a long conference with Hitler, and that is when Milch mentioned that matter.\nQ.Was it known to you that Milch in a small circle of theirs expressed that feeling that the war was lost?\nA.I mentioned before, that Milch very often was very free in his speeches, and very frank, and that he made such statements very often, and that he was not afraid to criticize anything.\nQ.Is it known to you that between Hitler and Milch certain considerable differences existed, which planes should be built for the Luftwaffe, fighters or bombers?\nA.Yes, that is known to me. I know that there were considerable differences concerning those planes, which Hitler joined in as well as Milch. Milch knew what he wanted, and he wanted a very strong defensive arm or weapon, which was the only way he first saw, to strike the enemy with bomber formations, whereas, Hitler always tried to accentuate attack planes, and that is all I know about this matter.\nQ.This is the last question to you. Can you tell us how the cooperation changed between Milch nd Goering during the last few days of the war?\nA.The situation that existed between Goering and Milch at the beginning became worse and worse from time to time. Particularly, I remember one particular case during the last few years where the relationship between Milch and Goering became more tense. The tension as far as I can remember was caused by the fact that Mich wanted a much stronger Court No. 2 (lrz) representation in his point of view, which, of course, was Goering's point of view too, and that was - 674a) Court No. 2 (lrz) enforcing of the defensive armament of the Luftwaffe, and that Milch made a reproach to Goering that he was not energetic enough on that question, and that he did not get it through with Hitler.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 820, "page_number": "", "date": "05 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-05", "text": "DR. BERGOLD:With that, Your Honor, I am through with the examination of the witness, and I shall place the witness at the disposal of the Prosecution. Before Mr. Denney does start, I have a few difficulties to discuss with you, Your Honor. Many of the witnesses which were granted me, especially those called, who are in the hands of the American Occupational Forces, have not been brought to Nurnberg as yet. I spoke about this several times, and I know I spoke to the Prosecution about it, who promised me that the witnesses would be brought to Nurnberg as fast as possible. I as a lawyer have no possibility whatever to bring the witnesses here to Nurnberg, neither those, who are in the custody of the Americans and the British, nor those who are free witnesses which are in Germany, the defense counsel has no right to do so. Therefore, the International Tribunal at the time had granted, all the witnesses be brought to Nurnberg. I had worked out a plan of examination of the witnesses, which of course, might collapse tomorrow, because the witnesses are not present. I would appreciate it very much if the Tribunal could order that these witnesses be brought here as soon as possible, and that the whole matter be expedited.\nTHE PRESIDENT:How many of these witnesses are now here, Doctor, here in Nurnberg?\nDR. BERGOLD:Of these witnesses which I need for the continuation of the discussion of the Central Flaming Board and the Jaegerstab as known in general, are only have witnesses, who are in connection with the question of the Dachau experiments, by most important witnesses have not appeared as yet. Of course, for the time being I can continue the Dachau experiments, even if my beautiful plans are collapsed.\nTHE PRESIDENT:We don't want to handicap you in the presentation of your proof in the order in which you prefer it. Of course, the Tribunal has no means itself of transporting your witnesses here, that is to be done through army channels. However, the Tribunal has ordered the production of the - 675 witnesses, and we will see that they are produced, whether they can be done \"a la carte\" just when you want them, then that presents some practical difficulties.", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 821, "page_number": "676", "date": "05 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-05", "text": "DR. BERGOLD:Yes, I see.\nTHE PRESIDENT:But at any rate the Tribunal wants to assure you that we will do anything that is physically possible to assist you in the presentation of your proof.\nDR. BERGOLD:Thank you, Your Honor.\nMR. DENNEY:In view of the short time remaining, I wonder if we could adjourn now, and take up the cross examination of the witness in the afternoon session?\nTHE PRESIDENT:Would you prefer that?\nMR. DENNEY:Yes.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Very well, the Court will recess until 1:30 PM\nTHE MARSHAL:The Tribunal will recess until 1:30 PM.\n( a recess was taken until 1330 hours).", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "MR. DENNEY", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 822, "page_number": "677", "date": "03 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-03", "text": "AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1335 hours, 3 February 1947.)\nPAUL KOERNER - Resumed CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. DENNEY:\nQIf Your Honors pleas,witness, from what date until what date were you State Secretary in the Prussian Ministry of State?\nAFromApril 1933 untilApril 1945 I was Undersecretary of State in the Prussian Ministry of the Interior.\nQWhen did you become State Secretary in the four year plan?\nAWhen the four year plan was created in October 1936.\nQHow long did you hold this position?\nAI was in that position until the end.\nQWhich was approximately May 1945?\nACertainly up toApril 1945.\nQYes, things were a little tense in Berlin after that.\nAI left Berlin on 20April 1945.\nq Where was your office?\nAMy office was on Leipzigerstrasse.\nQWhat were your duties in connection with Goering?\nAMy duties were those of an Undersecretary of State - in those two fields of work.\nQDid you see Goering every day?\nAI saw Goering formerly in the earlier years almost daily and later less frequently, and during the war only occasionally when he came to Berlin or when I went to the Fuehrer's headquarters.\nQHow many times a month did you see him from 1939 on, the beginning of the war?\nAThere were times when I didn't see Goering for months on end.\nQWhen did he tell you that he wanted you to become a member of the Central planning Board?\nAThat was in the Spring of 1942.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 823, "page_number": "678", "date": "05 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-05", "text": "Q.Did he speak with you personally about it?\nA.Yes. I came back from sick leave and when I reported back to Goering on that occasion Goering told me that at the suggestion of Speer the Central Planning Board had been created, and I, at Goering's wish, should become a member.\nQ.How long did the conversation last?\nA.That, of course, I can't say now, bat that question was discussed among other questions by Goering.\nQ.You stated on direct examination that there was no decree in connection with the formation of the Central Planning Board.\nA.No decree, no.\nQ.You're sure of that?\nA.It is quite certain that it has not been created and a decree certainly not been published.\nQ.Then you believe that the Central Planning Board came into existence by reason of Goering consenting to the establishment of the Board and the Board thereafter came as a matter of course?\nA.Yes, the Central Planning Board was created by --\nQ.Just answer the question witness.\nA.Yes.\nQ.Did you ever go to a concentration camp?\nA.I went to a concentration camp once.\nQ.When?\nA.Either in 1942 or '43.\nQ.Where was it?\nA.That was in Auschwitz.\nQ.Did you ever go to Dachau?\nA.No.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 824, "page_number": "679", "date": "05 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-05", "text": "Q.Did you ever go to Dachau?\nA.No.\nQ.Buchenwald?\nA.No. Otherwise I know of no concentration camp. I do not know any concentration camp.\nQ.What was the occasion of your visit to Auschwitz?\nA.I made that trip in order to see the work being done in that area. I wanted to inspect the construction.\nQ.Did you inspect the camp?\nA.I went to the camp very briefly at the end of the inspection of Auschwitz.\nQ.I am sorry I did not get the end of the answer.\nA.I went briefly to that camp at the end of my inspection tour.\nQ.You have stated that the sole task of the Central Planning Board was the distribution of raw material?\nA.It was the agency to distribute raw materials.\nQ.You said it was not in any way connected with labor?\nA.It had no right to give orders and the distribution of labor was not among its tasks.\nQ.You have also said that the Central Planning Board was solely an information agency.\nA.I said that the Central Planning Board distributed raw materials. In that field it also had the right to make decisions. In other fields it did not. If the question of distribution was dealt with by the Central Planning Board, this happened as I said once before, from a purely informative point of view.\nQ.In other words, they could make no decisions at all with reference to labor?\nA.No. The Central Planning Board had no right to make decisions.\nQ.Do you believe that the workers who came into Germany from foreign countries came voluntarily?\nA.I know that the workers who were brought to Germany from foreign countries were recruited on a voluntary basis.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 825, "page_number": "680", "date": "05 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-05", "text": "Q.All of them?\nA.I beg your pardon?\nA.All of the laborers who came from foreign countries came on a voluntary basis?\nA.I certainly remember clearly that up to 1943 all workers --\nQ.Witness, that is not my question. Answer it. I am not talking about 1943. I am talking, about workers who came from foreign countries. I will repeat the question. The workers we came from foreign countries, you believe, came voluntarily?\nA.I think that the biggest part of them came on a voluntary basis.\nQ.The biggest part? How many came involuntarily?\nA.I do not know. I do not know the figures.\nQ.But you had no reason to believe that any of them did come involuntarily, any substantial number?\nA.I am convinced of that.\nQ.And you have never heard anything about the use of force in the procurement of foreign labor?\nA.No. I have not heard anything about that.\nQ.From whom did the Central Planning Board receive its orders?\nA.The Central Planning Board did not need any orders, because its tasks were quite clearly defined.\nQ.So, to your knowledge, the Board or any of its members never did get any orders.\nA.Not that I know of. I maintain Central Planning Board was never given any orders.\nQ.You spoke this morning of the labor contract which was negotiated between GBA and the French Labor ministry?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 826, "page_number": "", "date": "05 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-05", "text": "A.Yes.\nQ.Do you recall that?\nA.Yes.\nQ.Do you remember the name of the French Labor Minister?\n680a", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 827, "page_number": "681", "date": "05 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-05", "text": "ANo.As I said this morning, I do not know this German-French agreement except from the press.\nQDo you know who was head of the French state?\nAAs far as I know that was Monsieur Laval who was Prime Minister, and head of the state was Petain.\nQDid you know Field Marshal von Flieder?\nAYes.\nQDid yon ever talk to him?\nAI may have spoken to him.\nQDid you ever talk to him about any orders he issued in connection with workers being obtained by the German Army in the eastern front?\nANo. I did not do this.\nQNot having done that, you would not know the basis for any such order that he issued, would you?\nANo. I could not tell you this.\nQWhen did you first hear the defendant say the war was lost?\nAIf I remember correctly, that must have been in the year 1943.\nQWere you present when he told Hitler the war was lost?\nANo. I knew this conversation between Hitler and Milch purely from reports.\nQReports from Milch?\nAI believe it was Milch, and also, I believe Speer talked to me about this conversation.\nQThis occurred in 1943?\nAI believe so. I cannot commit myself to a definite date, but I am almost certain it was in 1943.\nQShortly after Stalingrad?\nAI believe it was after Stalingrad.\nQWitness, you have a very bad memory . I will show you DocumentNOKW 307. This is a document headed \"The Reichsmarshal of Greater Germany, Delegate for the Four Year Plan, Berlin, W9, 27 June 1943.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 828, "page_number": "", "date": "05 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-05", "text": "The State Secretary, Z. P. 170 g. Rs.\" Underneath that is written \"Special Delivery, Immediate Delivery, Top 681-a Secret, Two Copies.\"", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 829, "page_number": "682", "date": "05 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-05", "text": "The Second Copy bears the Defendant Milch's initials on the left hand side. On the right hand side is the word \"Speer\" written in red pencil.\n\"I have just received the inclosed urgent telegram from the Reich Marshal, I enclose a copy and ask you to fix a date for a discussion of the question.\" It is signed \"Koerner.\"\nThe first copy went to Speer and the second copy went to Milch.\nThe enclosure reads \"To the 'Central Planning' for attention Staatssekretaer Koerher, Berlin, Loipziger Platz 11.\n\"Secret, urgent, immediate delivery.\n\"In a report made in connection with the air raid on the Muels Chemical Werks, the General Plenipotentiary for Special Matters connected with chemical production, has requested the following measures in order to guarantee the production of Buna.\n\"a) For partial reconstruction of Muels:\n\"l) 1000 men from the Todt organization are to be made available or the spot. The central offices and the local offices of the Todt organization are informed as to the types of skilled labor required.\n\"2) Further, the assignment of approximately 250 specialized mechanics is necessary.\n\"3) About 4000 tons of iron must be provided for the reconstruction.\n\"b) It must be immediately guaranteed, by the assignment of 40 specialists namely mechanics and electricians, that the work still necessary in connection with the completion of the Buna Factory in Ludwigshafen will be finished. All the offers made to obtain the above-mentioned manpower from labor sources have led to very little success. Continual delays arise in finishing the job the result of which is that the full capacity originally planned for the middle of 1943 will now only be reached at the end of 1943 at the earliest \"c) This request holds good to an even greater extent of the Auschwitz works which are under Construction in Upper Silesia.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 830, "page_number": "", "date": "05 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-05", "text": "There is a shortage of mechanics and electricians here too, just now, to carry out the installations rapidly in order that the production of carbides and acetaldehyde can be 682 (a) started by the end of 1943.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 831, "page_number": "683", "date": "05 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-05", "text": "It is equally urgent that the following steps of the Buna synthesis be corrected by an immediate increase in staff, which can he done by February or March 1944.\n\"d) As, on principle the chemical industry has too little iron at its disposal, it was decided about 2 months ago, that, owing to the situation with regard to iron the annual Buna output of the Buna-Works in Upper Silesia must be reduced from 30,000 to 20,000 tons that is to say by one third.\n\"In view of the coming situation, the works in Auschwitz should be run to the full extent envisaged in the old planning and treated as 'Grade I Prierit.\n\"Only in this way does it seem possible that German rubber production will not collapse entirely owing to increase air-raids.\n\"Besides, the general plenipotentiary for special matters regarding chemical production considers it necessary to establish in the East a new unit with a production capacity of about 20,000 tons of Buna yearly.\n\"The Reich Marshal has ordered the Central Planning to examine without delay the requests listed here and providing they are necessary, to take all measures required to carry them out immediately. The Reich Marshal awaits a report that steps have been taken.\n\"The Personal Advisor of the Reich Marshal of greater Germany Dr. Ing.\nGoernnert \"Ministerialrat.\"", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 832, "page_number": "684", "date": "05 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-05", "text": "MR. DENNEY:We offer this in evidence as Exhibit 126, if your Honor please, and will furnish the necessary copy to the Defense.\nQ.Do you recall receiving that message?\nA.After hearing it read here in Court, yes, I remember it now.\nQ.Your memory has been refreshed?\nA.Yes, it has been refreshed.\nMR. DENNEY: I hand the witness document No. 268, and ask that a copy be handed to the Defense and the Interpreter.\n(Reading) (letter to Milch read in error)\nDR. BERGOLD:One minute! I have received a much different copy.\nMR.DENNEY: \"The Reich Marshal of Greater Germany Plemipotentiary for the Four Year Plan the State Secretary, Berlin, 9 June 1943.\nDear Reichsminister Speer, It has been suggested in the Central Planning (Zentral Planning) to grant cards for additional and extra rations for workers doing heavy and heaviest work to new laborers of a firm only if the labor office (Arbeitsamt) approves the employment. The cards for additional and extra rations should be witheld during the first four weeks from all new laborers - who are otherwise entitled to get the extra rations - if the laborers are hired by individual firms in an illegal way. This should be done in order to decrease undesirable fluctuation. After thorough examination of the suggestion by the Reich Ministry of Food and the Plenipotentiary for the Allocation of Labor it is clear that it is absolutely forbidden to employ new workers without reference to the Labor Offices. In cases in the heads of a firm disregard this prohibition, the order to withhold the two ration cards (which are of course issued by the firm) will also be ignored.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "MR.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 833, "page_number": "", "date": "05 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-05", "text": "It does not pay, therefore, to issue a new decree.\nI have had an investigation as to how the distribution of the cards, extra rations is practically handled in the firm Rheinmetall-Borsig in Tegel. This firm makes us to a large extent of the decree of the Reich Mimister of Food on 7 April 1942 which decree stipulates the possibility to withhold cards for additional rations from malingers. I enclose a report about the findings. In principle, the additional food ration is not granted to new 684a personnel before at least two weeks have expired.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 834, "page_number": "685", "date": "05 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-05", "text": "The firm regards the decree as an essential expedient for the struggle against the various disturbances in the allocation of labor.\nOn basis of these findings I believe that we can attain the end at what we aim (as far as this is possible by a decree) by referring the execution of the firm connected to the existing decree of the Reich Minister of Food.\nI have transmitted a copy of this letter to General Feldmarschall Milch. Heil Hitler! Yours (Signed) Koerner, Copy to Reichsminister Speer.\"\nMR. DENNEY:We offer this as Exhibit No. 127.\nDR. BERGOLD:May it please the Court, with respect to the admission the letter of the Reich Marshall in evidence, I object to this. It says at the end of the letter \"Not official.\" I therefore make the suggestion to the counsel for the Office of the Chief of War Crimes, that this is not an official copy. It is not apparent that what the letter says is true. If the document is sought to be used I ask that only an official copy be used so that I can be certain that the contents are correct.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Dr. Bergold's objection seems to go to the authenticity of the document.\nMR. DENNEY:Yes, I believe so.\nDR. BERGOLD:I om objecting because it is not official. It is definitely called \"Not official.\"\nMR. DENNEY:If Your Honor please, the document I have of course bears no such notation. I will examine the original (Examines document). I certainly concede that it appears on Dr. Bergold's copy. I am referring now to the letter from Koerner to Speer. I did not know what. Dr. Bergold referred to, until I saw it on the copy, printed in German.", "speakers": [ "THE PRESIDENT", "DR. BERGOLD", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 835, "page_number": "", "date": "05 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-05", "text": "May we have the copy that the Secretary-General has, please?\nTHE PRESIDENT:Are you ready to proceed, Mr. Denney?\nMR. DENNEY:I am just endeavoring to get the numbers straightened out just getting the numbers so it will be clear, Your Honor.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Very well.\nMR. DENNEY:We have here the photostatic original which I will show witness. Show that to the witness.\n(Document shown to witness.)\n685 a", "speakers": [ "MR. DENNEY", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 836, "page_number": "686", "date": "05 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-05", "text": "QWitness, you have been handed the original of the letter of June 9, 1943, from you to Milch, together with the letter of the same date, from you to Speer?\nAYes.\nQDo you recognize those?\nAYes, I do.\nQThose are your documents?\nAYes. The signature under the letter to Milch is my signature.\nQAnd please examine the pages one and two in your hand; is that a copy of the letter which you received?\nAThat appears to be a copy of the letter, in any case, as it is attached to my letter to Milch, it would appear to be in order. As to the signature confirmation, I can not find the signature confirmation on this copy.\nQNo, there was no signature on the copy which we captured, they were captured in that fashion.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The witness, however, admits the genuineness of the document, so that seems to negate your objection, Dr. Bergold.\nDR. BERGOLD:I admit that the document -- I did not hear the witness call the enclosure. My objection goes only to the enclosure, not to the first page. And the reason is, because my copy says \"Not an official copy.\" The witness should be able to tell me whether he declared the enclosure correct and authentic.\nTHE WITNESS:I car describe the letter to Milch, as completely correct. The enclosure not. I can only assume that it is the correct enclosure to this.\nMR. DENNEY:The witness says that he assumes it is a correct enclosure. That is the way the documents were captured.\nDR. BERGOLD:It is only an assumption of the witness. I ask the right to examine into the fact as to whether this assumption is correct.\nMR. DENNEY:I submit counsel can question the witness on it whenever he wishes to.", "speakers": [ "THE WITNESS", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "MR. DENNEY", "Q", "A" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 837, "page_number": "687", "date": "05 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-05", "text": "THE WITNESS:May I say something, briefly, on the first document, which I was handed.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Yes, go ahead.\nTHE WITNESS:This is a teletype copy of a letter by the Reichsmarshal on the basis of a subordinate, to the Reichsminister, with reference to the Plan for Chemical Production with reference to taking official measures in the field of Buna Production. This teletype letter says quite clearly that a measure was taken -- was as much to do as necessary-by Goering, as the letter of the Four Year Plan, on the basis -- in regard to the Chemical Works which had been bombed very heavily in several air raids. The document shows clearly, as a special matter -- that a special contingent of iron should be supplied, so that an adjustment for the loss could be created. That Goering, as the head of the Four Year Plan, should address himself to the Central Planning Board, which was looking after the Production of raw materials; and also, in such exceptional cases to dispose of a threat, as a matter of course.\nMR. DENNEY:I submit that the document speaks for itself, and it is not, therefore, necessary for me to direct your Honor's attention to the part of the document which also speaks of Labor. It is also not necessary to call your Honor's attention to the fact that all of these papers were captured in the files, in the papers, of the Defendant Milch.\nQ.Witness, how many meetings of the Central Planning Board were held", "speakers": [ "THE WITNESS", "Q.", "MR. DENNEY", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 838, "page_number": "688", "date": "05 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-05", "text": "Q.How many meetings of the Central Planning Board were held?\nA.I cannot say this - how many.\nQ.Well, were there a hundred?\nA.I don't think so.\nQ.Were there fifty?\nA.I do not want to commit myself to a figure. In any case I was always told in these interrogations that all documents of all meetings were in the hands of the prosecution.\nQ.You answer the questions, witness. How often did the Central Planning Board meet, starting with its creation in 1942?\nA.In figures my memory is letting me down. One thing is certain, that every three months one meeting was held, of the Central Planning Board, which dealt with the distribution of all materials. Apart from those regular meetings there were other meetings on the questions of raw materials and the figure of those meetings I no longer recall. Apart from that, as is well known and as was said often before today, there were other meetings which had a purely informative character.\nQ.Well, do you remember the Jaegerstab?\nA.No, I had nothing to do with Jaegerstab.\nQ.You never attended their meetings?\nA.No, not one meeting.\nQ.Did you ever hear of the Jaegerstab mentioned in Central Planning?\nA.I could not say this off-hand. The term \"Jaegerstab\" was used so often in 1944 that I no longer know where it was used.\nQ.Well, the Jaegerstab only existed from March 1944 until August 1944?\nA.As far as I can recall, yes.\nQ.You were at the 55th meeting of the Central Planning Board on March 1, 1944. Do you remember who presided at that meeting?\nA.I cannot say that precisely. It was either Milch or Speer; one of the two.\nQ.Well, for your information, Milch presided.\nA.That may well be so.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 839, "page_number": "689", "date": "05 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-05", "text": "Q.I tell you. it's so. We have the minutes.\nA.Yes.\nQ.In Document Book 3-A, page 1, about the last eight lines in the first paragraph, appearing on page 1768 of the German original. Sauckel spoke at that meeting. Were yea present?\nA.Yes, I was.\nQ. \"In the previous years I was able to satisfy the demands, at least with regard to the number of laborers, but this year I am no longer able to guarantee them in advance. Increase I can deliver only a small number, I should be glad if those arriving would be distributed by percentage, within the framework of your program. Of course, I shall readily agree if I am now told by the Board, 'Now we have to change the program. Now this or that is more urgent.' It goes without saying that we will satisfy the demands, whatever they may be, to the best of our ability, with due regard to the war situation. So much about figures.\"\nThen, on page 1969 of the original - it's on Page of the English Document Book - it's the beginning of the full paragraph, to the left of which appear the figures 1770: \"At that time I was very much concerned: We discovered a decrease in the amount of labor employed. Today I am able to report that we stooped that decrease. According to most accurate statistics, which I had ordered, we have today again including foreign workers and prisoners of war the same number of 29.1 millions which we had in September. But we have added nothing since that time. Thus we dispatched to the Reich in these two months no more than 4,500 Frenchmen which amounts to nothing. From Italy only 7,000 civilians arrived. This, although from 1.12 until today I have had no hour, no Sunday, and no night for myself.\"\nThen, continuing to the last full paragraph on the same page, the paragraph to the left of which appear the figures 1771: \"The most abominable point made by my adversaries is their claim that no executive had been provided within these areas in order to recruit in a sensible manner the Frenchmen, Belgians, and Italians and to dispatch them to work. Thereupon I even proceeded to employ and train a whole batch of French male and female agents who for good pay, just as was done in olden times for \"shanghaiing\", went hunting for men and made them drunk by using liquor as well as words, in order to dispatch them to Germany.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 840, "page_number": "690", "date": "05 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-05", "text": "Moreover I changed some able men with founding a special labor supply executive of our own, and this they did by training and arming with the help of the higher SS and Police Fuehrer a number of natives, but I still have to ask the Munitions Ministry for arms for the use of these men.\"\nTurning now to page 5 of the English document Book, about eight lines from the top of the paragraph, to the left of which appears the figure 1776, and it starts out in the middle of the page, both ways: \"On the other hand\". It's the beginning of a sentence. It's one full sentence above the sentence where the period -- the figures 5 and 6 appear, and the name \"Laval\".\n\"On the other hand, I have grounds for hoping that I shall be just able to wiggle through, first by using my old corps of agent and my labor executive, and secondly by relying upon the measures which I was lucky enough to succeed in obtaining from the French Government. In a discussion lasting 5-6 hours I have exerted from M. Laval the concession that the death penalty will be threatened for officials endeavoring to sabotage the flow of labor supply and certain other measures. Believe me, this was very difficult. It required a hard struggle to get this through. But I succeeded, and now in France, Germans ought to take really severe measures, in case the French Government does not do so.\"\nAnd then, down a few lines, there's a sentence that ends with the word \"France\" and the next sentence starts \"There is only one solution\". the words \"Buergermeister\" and \"Prefect\" appear in this. \"There is only one solution: the German authorities have to cooperate with each other, and if the Frenchmen despite all their premises do not act, then we Germans must make an example of one case and by reason of this law, if necessary, put the Prefect or Buergermeister against the wall, if he does not comply with the rules. Otherwise no Frenchman at all will be dispatched to Germany.\"\nAnd then, turning over to page 7, Sauckel still speaking, there is a sentence that appears just before the notation to the left in the middle of the paragraph, 1780:", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 841, "page_number": "691", "date": "05 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-05", "text": "\"Therefore I have to continue to go to France, Belgium, Helland, and Italy, and there will be a time again when I shall go to Poland and extract workers there as fit and as many of them as I can get.\" And then, at the bottom, the last sentence of the same paragraph: \"How the labor is to be distributed will then have to be decided according to the needs of the whole of German industry, and I shall always be prepared to keep the closest contact with you all, gentlemen, and to charge the labor exchanges and the district labor exchanges with intimately collaborating with you. Everything is functioning if such collaboration exists.\"\nDo you recall Herr Sauckel's speech at that meeting, witness?\nA.I cannot recall those details today, of course. As you held the documents of that meeting, I assume that these statements were really made. But it becomes quite clear from these remarks by Sauckel that here he attempted to justify his point of view.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Mr. Denny, ask the witness what he means by that. BY MR. DENNY:\nQ.What do you mean by your last statement, wetness, that here Sauckel attempted to justify his point of view?\nA.I said already this morning that Speer was not in agreement with the whole method used by Sauckel and that was the reason why the relations between Sauckel said Speer often had elements of tension. As Speer had called this meeting together, even though it was presided ever by Milch, and Speer was unavailable at the time and had to do something more important, it was only done in order to convict Sauckel of the wrong methods which he used. If these statements read by you - these statements of Sauckel read by you - have been made, one can see from the way he produced them, one can see that he wanted to defend his method of doing work.\nQ.By his method, you mean \"shanghaiing\", getting them drunk, standing Buergermesiters up against walls, con cluding agreements with Laval and his kind, extracting laborers from Poland, going to Holland, Italy, and Belgium; is that what you refer to, witness?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 842, "page_number": "692", "date": "05 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-05", "text": "AI do not know whether Sauckel used these methods. If he did according to what you read, it was quite certain things were said only to have that he used any method to bring labor to Germany.\nQYou say Speer had something more important to do on 12 March 1944? What was Speer doing on 12 March 1944 that was more important than finding out whether or not 4,050,000 workers that had been asked for by Hitler were going to be forth coming from the GBA?\nAI cannot answer your question. You should ask Speer.\nQYou're on the stand, witness. I am asking you -- you said he had something important to do. What was it?\nAI said that perhaps he had something more important to do.\nQPerhaps? Don't you know that Speer was sick? He had been sick since January and was sick until April of '44?\nAThat is possible. I don't know that today.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:Mr. Denney, I notice that the name Milch appears opposite Page 1798 in Sauckel's speech and presumably 1780. Do you submit that Milch was present at the time of the Sauckel speeck?\nMR. DENNEY:If Your Honor please, in the opening statement, Sauckel starts, \"Field Marshal, Gentlemen.\"\nBY MR. DENNEY:\nQYou were interrogated on the 12th of December 1946 by Mr. Myers and a Warrant Officer Carter of the British Wac. Do you recall that?\nAYes.\nQWere you asked those questions and did you make these answers: Question: But you know, for certain of course, that many foreigners worked in Germany?\n\"A Naturally; that is clear.\"\nQCould you estimate how many?\nAI know the figures gradually which I have learned from all the reports, about five to six million.", "speakers": [ "JUDGE MUSMANNO", "A", "MR. DENNEY", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 843, "page_number": "693", "date": "05 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-05", "text": "\"Question: How high do you estimate the number of people who came voluntarily?\n\"Answer: That goes into the millions, for certain.\n\"Question: One, two, three?\n\"Answer: That I would not like to fix. Certainly it runs into millions; whether it was 30 or 10 percent, I do not know. You must ask the people who are responsible. Until 1942, everyone was here on a voluntarybasis; and then, there were one and one-half million foreign workers in Germany.\"\nDo you recall those questions and these answers, witness:\nA. Yes, I recall these statements.\nQ. You were at the fifth Meeting of the Central Planning Board held in Berlin on 27 April 1942 together with Speer, the defendant, and some others --two others --State Secretary Mr. Schulze-Fiolitz, Minister of Munitions, and Minister von Bermann of the Four-Year Plan. You received a copy of the results of that meeting. Paragraph One of the Results states --and I might add that there were only eight copies on the direction list -- Paragraph One states: \"The Central Planning in the Four-Year Plan (Order of the Reich Marshal of the Greater German Reich of April 22, 1912 VP 6707 g) is a task of leadership. It is only concerned with principles and superior matters. It gives definite decisions and controls the execution of its orders. Central Planning is not concerned with anonymous institutions which are difficult to supervise, but with fully responsible individual persons who are free to choose their own methods and collaborators inasfar as there are no directives given by Control Planning.\"\nDo you recall that statement, witness:\nA.I cannot recall it from the reading of this. I should read through it again.\n(Witness is handed the document)", "speakers": [ "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 844, "page_number": "694", "date": "05 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-05", "text": "Q.If Your Honor please, I have indicated that that was the Fifth Meeting. It should have been the First Meeting. I am advised it was repeated in the Fifth as well.\nDR. BERGOLD:The recital is attached to the record of the Fifth Meeting. That might have started the confusion.\nMR. DENNY:In any event, the witness was present in both meetings.\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes.\nTHE WITNESS:Yes.\nBY MR. DENNY:\nQ.Do you remember seeing that, witness?\nA.I cannot quite recall the things, but as I am reading now, I assume, and it becomes quite clear to me, that this was a statement made by Speer during the first meeting of the Central Planning Board.\nQ. Excuse me, Your Honors, for just a minute.\nI hand the witness the German copy of the Defense Document Book in the trial before the International Military Tribunal; it being a copy of the defendant Speer's document Book. I am sorry, Dr. Bergold, I don't have the English copy and the German copy. However, I am sure that the witness will correct me if I read improperly.", "speakers": [ "THE WITNESS", "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "MR. DENNY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 845, "page_number": "695", "date": "05 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-05", "text": "QI hand you a copy of tho Defense Document Book in the trial before the International Military Tribunal. It is a copy of Defendant Speer's Document Book. I am sorry I do not have more copies. I have only one English copy and one German copy. I am sure the Witness will correct me if I read improperly. This is dated Berlin, 1942, 22 April, and is an excerpt from a newspaper. It is the decree signed by Goering establishing the Central planning Board. The newspaper excerpt bears the date 25 April 1942.\n\"With a view of assuring priority of armaments as ordered by Hitler and to summarize all the demands which are thus made on the total economy during the war as well as to bring about a balance by safeguarding the food and raw materials and production opportunities of the economy, I order:\n\"1. A 'Central Planning' shall be set up within a framework of the Four Year Plan. It is to be directly subordinated to me.\n\"2. The direction of the 'Central Planning' is undertaken jointly by the Reich Minister Speer, and Field Marshal General Milch and State Secretary Koerner.\n\"3. The 'Central Planning' encompasses the sphere of the entire economy and has among others, the following tasks:\n\"a) the decision about the necessity of execution or new plans or continuation of already existent plans \"b) the decision about creating new or developing existing places of production of raw materials \"c) the distribution of the existent raw materials, especially of iron and metals among all places requiring them \"d) the inclusion of coal of energy in production \"e) the voting on demands of the total economy and of the transportation system.\n\"4. Insofar as I have not reserved for myself the decision in particular cases, the 'Central Planning' decides finally in its own competence by virtue of the power invested in me.\n\"5. The 'Central Planning' issues the necessary executory regulations.", "speakers": [ "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 846, "page_number": "696", "date": "05 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-05", "text": "\"6. The powers given to the General Plenipotentiary for Armament tasks in the Four Year Plan as per my decree of 1 March 1942 are not affected by this order.\"\nThis is signed \"Hermann Goering.\"\nAIn the copy which I have, the Distribution of labor as not mentioned at all. The five points mentioned here show clearly what tasks the Central Planning Board had which were all tasks concerned with the distribution of raw materials. It was obvious that if those who needed iron or coal and could not be supplied, now planning could not be undertaken, and existing planning could not be carried on. It all comes to the definite task of distributing raw materials. All five points show clearly and definitely how measures are decided toward that end.\nDR. BERGOLD:I would like to see the copy which the witness has, so that, if necessary, I can raise an objection to the reading by who Prosecution.\nThis information appeared in a newspaper, but it was not a public newspaper. I object to the manner in which Dr. Denney has read this document. In the German original there is no reference to the Distribution of labor.\nDR. DENNEY:If your Honor please, I never used the words \"distribution of labor\" in my reading of the document.\nDR. BERGOLD:That is how it was translated for us.\nTHE PRESIDENT:If it is a question of discrepency between the original and the translated version, that can easily be resolved.\nDR. DENNEY:If your Honor pleas, it is our contention that the powers given in this are broad enough to include labor, but I probably did get some help from the interpreters. \"Distribution of labor\" does not appear any place in the translation which I read.\nSo far as Dr. Bergold's objection to the document is concerned, I call the Court's attention to the fact that it is an exhibit in the case \"United States against Hermann Goering, et al,\" and as such the Court will take judicial notice of it.\nDR. BERGOLD:I withdraw my objection. The German word for labor is \"arbeit\" and I had to rely on what was translated for me.", "speakers": [ "A", "DR. DENNEY", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 847, "page_number": "697", "date": "05 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-05", "text": "THE PRESIDENT:Much ado about nothing. No one claims it refers to the distribution of labor.\nDR. BERGOLD:Only the interpreters.\nQWitness, you were at the 56th meeting of the Central Manning Board which took place on 4 April 1944. The results of that meeting appear in Prosecution's English Document Book Number 4 as Exhibit 48-D. It is Page 94 and Page 95 of the English Document Book. It is the paragraph starting off \"Fighting Staff\" or \"Jaegerstab.\" It is about the biggest paragraph on that page. It is the second or third page of the results of the 56th meeting.\n\"The Fighting Staff to got a quota of 550 million, including 15O million definitely pledged from the reserve and the air administration is to have a quota of 200 million. Both are to be checked against each other.\nDo you remember that reference to the Fighting Staff at the 56th meeting of the Central Planning Board which mas held early in April?\nAThat, of course, I cannot recall.\nDR. BERGOLD:May I help you?\nMR. DENNEY:No thank you. Thank you very much.\nTHE PRESIDENT:It is almost recess time. Would you like to take a recess at this time?\nMR. DENNEY:If your Honor please.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The court will take a short recess.\n(A recess was taken).", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "MR. DENNEY", "Q", "A" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 848, "page_number": "698", "date": "05 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-05", "text": "THE MARSHALL:The Tribunal is again in session.\nMR. DENNEY:Your Honors please. Witness, I ask you how many meetings of the Central Planning Board you attended and you said you couldn't remember.\nAI can't remember the exact number.An any case, I was present in most of the sessions.\nQWell, there were sixty meetings and you attended all by the 44th, 46th, 48th and the 55th.\nAYes, indeed.\nQWhat was your attitude on the exploitation of occupied territory?\nAI already mentioned that before the International military Tribunal No. 1 and I answered these questions during cross examination.\nMR. DENNEY:If your Honor please, I have the right to test the witness's power of recollection.\nDR. BERGOLD:I would like to object. As far as I know during the meeting of the International Military Tribunal, should a cross examiner refer exclusively to questions which are put by either the defense counsel or the prosecution in this trial against Milch on the question of the exploitation of occupied territory in regard to foodstuffs, etc., this question is not material to the trial. I would appreciate therefore if Mr. Denney could tell me how this matter is connected with the defendant Milch?\nMR. DENNEY:If your Honor please, I have already stated that I have a right to test the witness's power to recollect.\nDR. BERGOLD:With this particular possibility one could introduce any kind of material into a cross-examination. I am of the opinion that the test of memory could be carried out in a different way, that is, particularly by reference to the material and the minutes or the Court.\nMR. DENNY:Well, if your honors please, I will withdraw the question.\nBY DR. DENNEY:", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHALL", "DR. BERGOLD", "MR. DENNY", "MR. DENNEY", "Q", "A", "BY DR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 849, "page_number": "699", "date": "05 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-05", "text": "QDid you see a decree of Speer signed 16 September 1943 which had to do with the functions of the Central Planning Office within the Central Planning Board?\nANo, I can't remember that. If I could be presented with the letter, then of course I might remember.\nMR. DENNEY:We will get to that. English Document Book 2-A, Page 38 Document number 1510. Do you have a German copy, Dr. Bergold, that can be shown to the witness?\nDr. BERGOLD: Yes. sir.\nMR. DENNEY:I believe it as on page -- if four Honors please, in the German document book it appears that the document is not complete and with the Court's permission, if Dr. Bergold had no objection -- we did the same thing with him this morning -- I will read this and then we will furnish him with the page.\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes, I agree.\nMR. DENNEY:This is dated 16 September 1943, and I will read it only in part. It is signed by Speer.\n\"The Planning Office will have to submit to central Planning for decision the proposed assignment for manpower to the individual big sectors of employment, trade economy on war work, traffic, foodstuff , etc. It also has to evaluate statistically the carrying through of the assignment.\"\nNow one last question.\nQYou worked very closely with Georing in the early years and less closely during the war years?\nAYes, that is correct.\nQYou stated at the first trial that your opinion of Georing was that he was the last big man of the Renaissance, the last great example of a man from the Renaissance period. Is that still your opinion of him?\nAIf I ever make a statement and that as my opinion, I stick to it.\nMR. DENNEY:Yea may inquire.\nREDIRECT EXAMINATION\nDR. BERGOLD:May it please the Tribunal, I take the liberty now to inquire.", "speakers": [ "A", "DR. BERGOLD", "MR. DENNEY", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 850, "page_number": "", "date": "05 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-05", "text": "QWitness, I take it that Exhibit 126 is still in your possession, 699 a that is the copy which was presented to you by the Prosecution?", "speakers": [ "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 851, "page_number": "700", "date": "05 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-05", "text": "AMay I ask if this is a telegram sent by Georing?\nQYes, that is correct. That is the telegram by Goering of 24 June 1943 - correction, 27 June 1943, and which you for warded to Milch.\nAYes, that is correct.And I wanted to come back to that particular telegram anyway, referring to one of the statements made by the Prosecution,-\nQMay I ask you first the questions?\nAYes, please.\nQWitness, in number one in this telegram on the last page it says \"The Reich Marshall has asked that the Central Planning examine this request\", according to your knowledge of the Central Planning Board, was Goering in a position to give orders to the Central Planning Board and particularly to Reichminister Speer?\nAYes, in his position as Plenipotentiary for the Four Your Plan he was definitely in a position to issue orders to the Reichsminister for Armament and also as plenipotentiary for Armament in the Four Year Plan.\nQ.Even to the Central Planning Board?\nAAs far as I know, no. Therefore, as can be clearly soon from this telegram, he did not send an order to the Central Planning Board - yes, to the Central Planning Board indeed, but to my attention but as I can see this matter, the whole measure was necessary duo to the heavy air raids on Huelz. In other words, it was a special emergency measure and had to be taken immediately. If the Prosecutor says that it can be clearly soon from this telegram that this is a labor assignment, then I can only refer to the fact that this is a closed stop which was taken by Georing as Plenipotentiary General for the Four Year Plan because the Plenipotentiary General for special chemical questions was his subordinate and this plenipotentiary, in his great distress had referred to Goering.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q.", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 852, "page_number": "", "date": "05 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-05", "text": "Goering, on the basis of this call for help by the Plenipotentiary General and his requests could have gone to the GBA with his labor requirements. He didn't do that, however, because he know exactly that what was required by the chemical industry, was special labor, special workers, who at that time on the open market were no longer available.\n700 a Since Speer as Armament Minister was in charge of the most important industries, where such special workers were available, Goering thought he would get better results if he channelled these appeals through the Central Planning Board to me So that Speer in realization of the importance of the complex might try to shift the required workers from his own factories.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 853, "page_number": "701", "date": "05 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-05", "text": "This was not a matter of labor assignment, as such, but rather a special emergency measure, which could only be taken care of if he who had possibility to fill such a request for special labor also gave it to the Central Planning.\nQDid the Central Planning have a possibility of putting an organization there?\nANo, not at all. This point (l) which is mentioned in Goering's telegram, that one thousand men should be placed in the organization Todt also shows clearly that he referred to Speer through this channel in order to induce him to do everything in his power here, too.\nQDon't you think it is possible that a similar letter was sent to Sauckel?\nQNo, I don't believe that, because I am convinced that Searing at the time, which was in the summer of 1943, was absolutely aware of the fact that Sauckel did not have any more such people available and therefore could not place them at his disposal.\nQThen I understand that you want to say that his letter was addressed to Minister Speer not so much because he was a member of the Central Planning board, but rather as the Armament Minister?\nAWell, that is quite correct. I also suppose that Goer ing addressed his teletype to me for that particular reason that Speer would not consider it a pronounced order, but that I should act as intermediary with Speer and obtain his coopera tion for this extraordinary measure.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 854, "page_number": "", "date": "05 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-05", "text": "QDo you know whether the Central Planning Board gave any orders as to that natter and called a meeting about it?\nAI believe that a meeting would not have been called due to such 701-A a special case, but rather what was necessary to do in the interest of the manufacture of Buna was taken care of through regular channels.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 855, "page_number": "702", "date": "05 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-05", "text": "QThe letter is from Mr. Turner. It was not signed by Goering was it?\nANo. Turner was special sub-department chief for the Reichsmarshall, and then acting upon orders of Goering wrotethis teletype and sent it to me.\nQIs it true that Turner used stronger terms than Goering actually wanted to use?\nAThat, of course, I can not judge. It could be possible In any case I think it can be clearly seen from what I just said that this was an extraordinary measure which could only be solved by Speer's doing everything he could to solve the problem.\nQI shall not proceed to Exhibit No. 127, that is the last document that the Prosecution submitted to you, a letter from you to Milch, or that letter from Goering to Speer?\nAYes, that is correct. I remember that. One thing should be clarified, whether this letter was true. I shall now support the truth of my letter to Speer.\nMR. DENNEY:Is comes through a letter from Goering to Speer. It was a letter from Koerner to Speer.\nTHE PRESIDENT:It was just a mis-statement.\nMR. DENNEY:I want to clear it up in the record.\nTHE WITNESS:Yes, it was a letter from me, I take it for granted that this letter is in order. It can be clearly seen that the Central Planning Board did not have anything to do with this matter, but the tasks in this matter were given to me because I as Deputy for the Four Year Plan was also in charge of the food situation in Germany. Here the Central Plan ning Board should have been referred directly to the Reich Food Ministry which the Control Planning did not do, but they referred the matter to me, and as can be seen clearly from this letter, this question was solved by me with every precaution taken.", "speakers": [ "THE PRESIDENT", "MR. DENNEY", "THE WITNESS", "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 856, "page_number": "", "date": "05 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-05", "text": "I had investigations made 702-A 702-A as to how the question of additional food ration cards was carried out in practice and, after the examination of the happenings I wrote this report to Speer, and I also suggested that no new decree be released but to leave it go at the decree issued by tho Reichsministry of Food.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 857, "page_number": "703", "date": "05 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-05", "text": "QWitness, were the words beginning with \"It has been suggested in the Central Planning Board --\" was this a resolution or decree or just a suggestion of some way to solve this problem?\nAThe word \"suggested\" shows clearly there was no decree from the Central Planning Board, but that I personally, as a member of the Central Planning because I happened to be at the Central Planning Board referred this question of the German Food situation to the Reichsministry of Food, and at the some time of course mentioned the situation plans through a strong fluctuation due to lax treatment of the ration coupons.\nQWhen it has been said here, \"All the workers who have been recruited by the plants illegally\", Are you talking about the bad conditions, which resulted during the war, namely, that factories would recruit workers from another factory by offering them higher wages?\nAGenerally speaking that such possibility was later limited by the decrees which had been issued, and particularly by Sauckel long before the war. Of course, here and there once in awhile there was a possibility that one or the other factory did not quite stick to the laws. Particularly there were possibilities to break the law, especially where concerns and factories could among each other shift workers from one factory to tho other.\nQWitness, I shall now proceed to tho 54th Meeting, excerpts of which were read to you by the Prosecution, namely, statements made by Sauckel.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 858, "page_number": "", "date": "05 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-05", "text": "I want you to remember that this morning I also asked you about this 54th Session. This is the session, which I submitted to you, where Sauckel made those particular statements: that only 200,000 laborers out of a total of 5,000,000 came voluntarily, and where he said that in France no program was in existence for the recruiting of voluntary workers. This morning you testified 703-A that these two last statements made by Sauckel were not made by him and that they were exaggerations.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 859, "page_number": "704", "date": "05 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-05", "text": "Do you think that the statements made by Sauckel, which were shown to you by the Prosecution, do you think they are exaggerates, too, or so you think they are correct?\nANo, I think they are also exaggerated.", "speakers": [ "A" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 860, "page_number": "705", "date": "05 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-05", "text": "A.No, I think they are also exaggerated.\nQ.On page 1780 of the transcript that was shown to you by the Prosecution--and I am talking particularly about the last sentence that was shown to you--there is the following sentence in there. That is on page 14 of the German document book: \"The way in which the distribution took place, that of course must take place according to the necessities, first, of the German armament, and second, of the German economy.\" That is where the word \"economy\" occurs. Did the Central Planning Board have anything to do with the German economy?\nA.I said before that the Central Planning Board handled the distribution for all these with labor requirements.\nQ.Talking about the economy, this includes the traffic, food, etc. did the Central Planning Board have anything to do with the traffic or the tradesmen, or hospitals and similar institutions? And did they have to distribute workers?\nA.No, of course not. The Central Planning Board did not have anything to do with labor assignments, only with the distribution of raw materials.\nQ.Yes, but I am here talking about labor distribution.\nA.No, the Central Planning Board did not have that under its super vision.\nQ.Witness, you have been shown the data concerning the first conference and the fifth conference respectively, of the Central Planning Board, where there is a record concerning the working sphere of the Central Planning Board. Does your statement of this morning that the minutes were not reviewed refer also to the first session?\nA.Yes. That is correct, of course.\nQShould one take it, though, Witness, that at such an important session, where they discussed the limits of the Central Planning Board Do you think that they were regarded as official without having been reviewed?\nA.Of course, I can't remember at this moment, and I don't know if the minutes were reviewed. In any case, the members of the Central Planning Board were present at that meeting, and they heard everything that was said there.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 861, "page_number": "", "date": "05 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-05", "text": "Q.Do you think that this corresponds exactly with what they said?\n705a", "speakers": [ "Q." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 862, "page_number": "706", "date": "05 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-05", "text": "A.That, of course, I cannot remember today.\nQ.Witness, you stated that the Central Planning Board was not created by decree. I have here Nachrichtenblatt No. 2, of the 23 April 1942, with a decree issued by Goering. Do you think that such a decree issued by Goering was a law, or what do you understand by that word \"decree\"?\nA.I consider that decree a decree and not a law. However, publication of this decree, in my opinion, did not take place, because otherwise the publication would have to take place in the Reichsgesetzblatt, and it did not take place. As far as I can remember now, I don't believe that this decree was published in either of the two papers.\nQ.I don't believe that was published either. What was that Nachrichtenblatt No. 2?\nA.I am afraid that I cannot answer that question, because I can only imagine that this was a Nachrichtenblatt within the working sphere of Speer. I do not know these nows leaflets. However, I believe that Speer might be able to answer those questions.\nQ.In any case, it was not an official paper in which the publication of laws took place?\nA.No, I am sure it was not. The official paper was the \"Reichsgesetzblatt\" and the \"Reichs-und-Proussische Staatsanzeiher\".\nQ.In this decree, issued by Goering, Goering played as though he were in power for the Central Planning Board. Did that happen in order to save face for Goering to the outside?\nA.I believe I am able to say that that is the way it was. With the appointment of Speer by Hitler, through which he was to take over the interests of the whole armament situation it was becoming more and more evident, which way Speer wanted to go.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 863, "page_number": "", "date": "05 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-05", "text": "That Speer no longer wanted to work with distribution of raw materials under the Four Year Plan in cooperation with the Reichministry shows that he had the distribution of raw materials transferred to himself. That is, the Committee of the Central Planning Board was created in order that he may be able to influence more effectively the tasks which were carried out so far by the Four Year Plan.\n706a.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 864, "page_number": "707", "date": "05 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-05", "text": "Q.Did the Central Planning Board over report to Goering concerning its activity?\nA.As far as I can remember, no.\nQ.Would not that have been necessary if Goering had really been the boss of the Central Planning Board?\nA.Then, of course, it would have been necessary.\nQ.Witness, the Prosecution has submitted to you the 56th Conference, which is in the fourth bundle. The Prosecution submitted to you the following sentence, \"550,000,000 are being promised, the contingent Jaegerstab plus 150,000,000 from the reserve, and the contingent RIM in administration, 200,000,000. Both contingents are to be in accordance with your requests.\"\nI shall continue to read a passage which was not introduced by the Prosecution concerning the contingent RLM administration. There are exact minutes. I mean certain constructions, the necessary number of workers, and the amount of building material are stated, the building projects for the supply industry; that is the industry that supplies the parts, for instance, optical glass, are to be delivered to the armament office. This 56th session according to its title concerns itself with the building volume for 1944.\nWitness, if we speak of 550,000,000, including 150,000,000 definite promise from the reserve and of the contingent RLM administration, if we speak of 200,000,000, are we speaking about laborers, or what are we speaking about?\nA.I can only remember that this was only money, only sums of money, because so many millions can not be provided, either in steel or iron or in workers.\nDR. BERGOLD:May it please the Tribunal, I shall now come to a statement on what Mr. Denney spoke of concerning the decree of Speer, without asking a question of the witness. I want to state for the record, then, that witness has testified, that this was a decree inside of the Ministry. I want to reserve to myself the right under the circumstances to ask Speer again about these matters.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 865, "page_number": "", "date": "05 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-05", "text": "I believe, however, that I will have to renounce this. For the time being, however, I want to reserve this right to myself.\nI have finished my examination of the witness.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Judge Phillips has some questions to ask the witness.\n707a BY JUDGE PHILLIPS:", "speakers": [ "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 866, "page_number": "708", "date": "05 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-05", "text": "QWitness, the Tribunal understood you to say, on direct examination that the Central Planning Board met every three months for the purpose of distributing raw materials only, but never in the procurement of labor and labor allocations; is that correct?\nAI believe that I can say yes; I can answer yes to this question.\nQMr. Denney, will you please show the witness Prosecution's Exhibit 483, Book 33, and page 37.\nDR. BERGOLD:I ask that you repeat that your Honor.\nQExhibit 483, Prosecution Book 33, pages 37, 38, 39 and 40, 53rd Session of the Central Planning Board. This document seems to be dated the 18th of February 1944, and is a result of the 53rd Session of the Central Planning Board, in regard to labor assignments for 1944. The first paragraph: The purpose of the session is to determine the needs and resources in labor for the first quarter and for the whole year 1944. The session is opened by the discussion of the data submitted by the planning office, see enclosures 1-9. On the basis of the Planning Office's estimate of the requirements, Enclosures 9, these turn out, after discussion with individual allottees, to be the following: agricultural, forestry and wood, Armament and war production, air-raid damages, communications, distribution, public administration, Wehrmacht administration; and the total allotment and distribution of labor for that year is 4,850,000 workers. Now, you appear to have been present at that meeting, along with the defendant Field Marshal Milch. If that is true, how do you reconcile the statement that you made to the Tribunal, that the Central Planning Board did nothing more at the time than to allocate raw materials and never labor?\nA.As can be seen from this document, this is a simple estimate. Already this morning during the various examinations I said that such conferences had been absolutely of an informatory character; that they were to find out hew the real situation of the labor problem was.\nQSo you say that this document does not show that the Central Planning Board allocated labor to these various organizations?", "speakers": [ "A", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 867, "page_number": "709", "date": "05 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-05", "text": "Q.No. As far as I can see from this document, there are no orders --- there were no orders issued, to any office or agency.\nQDoesn't it give the assignment by the Board for January, February and March prior to this time?\nANo.\nQWill you look at the last paragraph, before it is signed by Steiffener, where it says assignments for January, and assignments in February and March.\nAThis is just a statement for the first quarter of 1944.According to the 6BA it says the following assignments in January, 146,000; assignment in February, March 500,000, and this is just an estimate; nothing else.\nQThe tribunal understood you to make the following statement: That the statement was to the effect that foreign workers were not to be obtained on a voluntary basis. Was it not true; is that an opinion of yourself, or are you speaking of your own personal knowledge?\nAI am speaking here of the knowledge of this document, which is clearly shown by this document; and it says here that through the GBA the following can be seen.\nQI am not asking you about the document; I am asking you about the statement that you made this morning.\nAI will stick to the statement which I made this morning.\nQDid you ever go to France to see how Sauckel obtained labor?\nANo.\nQThen you admit then, whatever was done by the Central Planning Board and its members at their discretion was done of their own volition and not on orders from above?\nAWell, when you speak about this and that, I can only speak about the real task of the Central Planning Board, and this task was the distribution of raw material; the distribution of raw materials was carried out by the Central Planning Board and reports were made on it every three months.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 868, "page_number": "710", "date": "05 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-05", "text": "- Q Did members of the Central Planning Board act as a board and have discretion as to the way and manner in which they were to perform their duties?\nAYes, indeed.\nBY DR. BERGOLD (Attorney for defendant Erhard Milch)\nQMay I ask another question of the witness. I am talking about the results of the 53rd meeting. That session was caused by the fact that during a Fuehrer conference, the Fuehrer asked for 4 million laborers, and then during that conference they wanted to decide if that number was correct? Was that quite the way it was? Was that conference due to the fact it was quite ordered by Speer?\nAAs far as I can remember, yes. I did not participate in this session with the Fuehrer; that is why I don't know the details. That is my reason why this session was held of the Central Planning Board was because Speer wanted to have a clear picture of the working conditions in Germany.\nDR. BERGOLD:May it please the Tribunal, I am very sorry today that Speer has not been interrogated by the whole Tribunal. Then, of course, this would have been cleared. Speer mentioned that yesterday, and I am sure Judge Musmanno remembers that fact. Speer testified on that to a great extent.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The Tribunal will have the benefit of whatever Speer stated yesterday in his deposition.\nDR. BERGOLD:May it please the Tribunal, tomorrow I shall ask for the witness Schmelter. I want to mention it today officially, because I didn't have an opportunity to make the written statement to Mr. Denny.\nFurthermore, I want to state, that the misunderstanding concerning the witness this morning, is not the fault of the Secretary General, but it was my own fault, because I thought that the Secretary General and the Marshal of the Court were the same persons, and as I had told it to the Marshal I thought that would be sufficient. I wish that the Secretary General be cleared of the responsibility; it was my fault.", "speakers": [ "A", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 869, "page_number": "", "date": "05 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-05", "text": "THE PRESIDENT:The Secretary General will be cleared from any blame.\n710 a Is there anything else before we adjourn.", "speakers": [ "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 870, "page_number": "", "date": "05 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-05", "text": "MR. DENNEY:There are two questions; first, tomorrow afternoon a funeral is being held for the one of the of the American lawyers here was died over the week-end. I would appreciate if the Court would adjourn in order that some of us might attend. On Monday Dr. Bergald has some personal matters to attend to, which he has assured me are of the utmost importance to him, and he would appreciate it if the Court did not sit on Monday of next week in order that he can take are of his business. He wanted to give the Court advance notice of it because he wanted to arrange to conduct the business, and he has difficulty getting around town due to the transportation facilities. He would appreciate if Your Honors would grant hire that request and I certainly have no objection to it.\nTHE PRESIDENT:First of all, has the examination of this witness been concluded by both sides?\nMR. DENNEY:Yes.\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes. And I want to thank Mr. Denney for cooperating in my problems.\nTHE PRESIDENT:You are thanked, Mr, Denney.\nThere will be no objection to recessing tomorrow afternoon so that the Prosecution may attend the funeral of the son of one of their associates. At least from this point it seems there will be no objection next Monday to recessing to enable Dr. Bergold to attend to pressing affairs of his own.\nWe will, however, resume session of Court tomorrow morning at 0930.\n710-B Official transcript of the American MilitaryTribunal in the matter of the United States of America, against Erhard Milch, defendant, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 9 January 1947, Justice Toms, presiding.", "speakers": [ "THE PRESIDENT", "DR. BERGOLD", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 871, "page_number": "711", "date": "06 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-06", "text": "THE MARSHALL:The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal No. 2. Military Tribunal No. 2 is now in session. God save the United States and this Honorable Tribunal.\nThere will be order in the courtroom.\nDR. BERGOLD:May it please the Tribunal, I am very sorry that today again I have some trouble but it isn't my fault though the following thing happened; the witness Generalarzt Dr. Hippke upon my suggestion of the 21st of December 1946 was granted for me on the 8th of January as a witness. I found him in Hamburg at his private address at first. Then I found out that he was in British custody and a prisoner now in Altona near Hamburg. A similar request was made by my colleague Dr. Sauter before Tribunal No. 1. Dr. Sauter and myself were of the opinion that Dr. Hippke is a witness of the defense. I spoke with Dr. Hippke several times. Yesterday afternoon Dr. Sauter wanted to speak to Hippke. Thereupon, Lieutenant Garrett called us up that the interrogation had to be stopped right away because the witness would not be at the disposal of the defense for a period of eight days. If it please the Tribunal, that is the difficulty. Before the International Military Tribunal and as we heard here before this Tribunal, too, the rule was that a witness who was called upon by one of the defense counsel, and was granted to the defense counsel by the Tribunal, was only at the disposal of the defense counsel and nobody else. We have had the agreement that the prosecution would only examine these witnesses with the permission of the defense counsel before a commission. For the time being I am of the opinion that this procedure cf the prosecution--Mr. Denney has nothing to do with that--I am speaking of somebody else--that the prosecution does not follow the rules which have been set up by this Tribunal.", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHALL", "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 872, "page_number": "", "date": "06 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-06", "text": "The trouble is, furthermore the following: The witnesses granted me for the greatest part have not today, appeared yet. The witness Raoder, for instance, whom in case we finished earlier I wanted to examine today.\n711a Due to a mistake of the prison administration he was taken back to Garmisch day before yesterday although he was granted me as a witness.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 873, "page_number": "712", "date": "06 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-06", "text": "Therefore, I have to begin with the prosecution tomorrow as far as dealing with the Dachau experiments. The main witness Prof. Dr. Hippke, whom I wanted to call to the witness box tomorrow morning. This Tribunal will understand that I wanted to speak to him yesterday and, of course, I have to speak to him today. I would appreciate, therefore, if the Tribunal would rule, if this procedure of the prosecution is correct, and I wish the Tribunal would rule that the witness be put at my disposal tonight for examination, because I want to call him to the witness stand and I must call him to the witness stand tomorrow, unless a long recess should occur. That is the start of this new trouble of mine, which I have to present to this Tribunal. Yesterday I tried to settle the matter with the Secretary General Mr. *******. Mr. ******* told me, however, that this matter would be taken up with the Tribunal for a decision today.\nMR. DENNEY:If your Honor please, with reference to the application of Dr. Bergold concerning the witness Hippke I would like to say this about the attitude of the prosecution staff, at least so far as I am concerned, and I believe Mr. McHancy would agree with the matters that I am about to state. Hippke has been searched for at least seven months. He were unable to find him. He was in the British zone. He was arrested sometime in December. I believe approximately the 21st. It was a few days before Christmas. We made every effort to get him here as soon as we could. Now, it's submitted, that if the defense are able to foreclose us from talking to men when we are certainly looking for by merely submitting their names as witnesses and have us approve them, then the ends of justice aren't being served. Dr. Bergold submitted Hippke as a witness. I assume that he didn't know where he was, but in the interest of his client he was trying to produce him. I don't question that Dr. Bergold submitted his name in good faith. I approved the application, as your Honors recall.", "speakers": [ "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 874, "page_number": "713", "date": "06 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-06", "text": "I made no objection to it, but Hippke still has some value to us from the standpoint of being a subject of interrogation and just because Dr. Bergold or Dr. Sauter or any other German defense counsel submits an application for a witness, who is a man in that category, I submit they should not be allowed to foreclose us. Now, Hippke has been here for quite some time. It is only as of, I believe, Saturday of last week, that the Tribunal ruled that he would be available to the prosecution for purposes of examination, I don't know of my own knowledge but I am told that he has been interrogated, I don't know how extensively, by defense counsel. Now, I certainly am not opposed to Dr. Bergold being allowed to talk to him before he puts him on the stand, but I did want to put these remarks in the record with reference to his application in order that, what I think would be an injustice to the prosecution in cases similar to this, won't be a matter of normal procedure as a result of the ruling the court might make.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 875, "page_number": "714", "date": "06 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-06", "text": "THE PRESIDENT:Well, I can see some difference between a witness whom the defense procures voluntarily and brings here from civil life to testify, and a witness who is a prisoner of war or who is sought by the United States, and is needed by the United States in its investigation, possibly as a witness or possibly even as a defendant. In the latter category it seems to me the witness belongs to the United States, rather than to the defense, even though the defense has asked that he be produced. You wouldn't contend, Mr. Denney, that if Dr. Bergold had secured an order for the attendance of a witness off the street who was not a prisoner, that you would have the right to examine him for any period before Dr. Bergold did?\nMR. DENNEY:Not if the witness was not -\nDR. BERGOLD:May it please the Tribunal -\nMR. DENNEY:If Your Honor please, you asked me a question. Not if the witness was not in the first category which Your Honor mentioned. Certainly if he wants to go out and get some one named John Smith, who was a master welder, who was not a subject of search, not some one we want, some one to testify, that is his business. I submit that I can go out and talk to the man, but I certainly can't keep Dr. Bergold from going to see him.\nDR. BERGOLD:May it please the Tribunal, may I add the following: The case is very peculiar, because the Prosecution would not have found out the address without the defense. On the 13th of December my colleague Sauter told me the address, and I informed him on the 21st that I had found it also independently. In other words, after my colleague Sauter had found out the address, he was arrested. Without our efforts the Prosecution wouldn't have found this man even today. It is like that, although Mr. Denney tells me I can speak to him, however there is an order from the Prosecution and the witness room that for eight days no defense counsel can speak with Hippke, and I am of the opinion that even in the American law this is forbidden.", "speakers": [ "MR. DENNEY", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 876, "page_number": "", "date": "06 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-06", "text": "If I would have known that Hippke was being sought for, then of course I would have made this application to the Tribunal to grant me the witness and to give him free transportation to this place. I couldn't understand why the Prosecution didn't charge him in the first case, but I am sure that there was no reason to indict him. Had I known that at the time, then I and colleague Sauter would have 714a asked safe transportation to Nuremberg before we divulged the address, which, of course, I am sure would have been granted me.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 877, "page_number": "715", "date": "06 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-06", "text": "Therefore I am of the opinion that he is our witness, and that we have the right to examine him, even if the Prosecution wants to indict him later on.\nMR. DENNEY:Well, first, I know nothing about Dr. Bergold's statement of what Dr. Sauter did. I do know that we have searched high and low for this man since last summer. As to why he wasn't produced in Case 1, the answer is that they couldn't find him. And as to whether or not we got the information of his address from Dr. Sauter, I don't know. I saw nothing that I recall in the application that indicated what his address was. Now, it may have been there, but I assure the Court that I didn't take the application, look it over, and then call somebody up and say, \"Arrest this man.\" That was not done, and I have no present recollection of ever having seen what his address was.\nDR. BERGOLD:I am convinced of that. That is what the Prosecution probably did in the first trials. In any case, Your Honor, I have to call the man as a witness tomorrow, and of course it is natural that I have to speak to him once more. I found a document which I would like to discuss with him. I would appreciate it if the Tribunal would rule that in spite of the fact that there was an order by the Prosecution that the witness should not be spoken to, that they make an exception in my particular case.\nMR. DENNEY:First, just so the record will be clear about the order, it is not a prosecution order, as has been stated by Dr. Bergold. It is an order of this Tribunal and Tribunal No. 1, based on an application by the Prosecution made in Tribunal No. 1.\nDR. BERGOLD:I didn't know that, Your Honors.\nMR. DENNEY:I just want to have the record clear.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Yes, I know that to be a fact that the Presiding Judges of the two Tribunals signed such an order.\nWell, Mr. Denney, approaching this practically, has the Prosecution questioned Dr. Hippke?\nMR. DENNEY:Yes, Your Honor.", "speakers": [ "THE PRESIDENT", "DR. BERGOLD", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 878, "page_number": "716", "date": "06 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-06", "text": "THE PRESIDENT:Well, then, is there any objection now to Dr. Bergold following with his interrogation?\nMR. DENNEY:No, no objection so far as I am concerned. I could perhaps talk to Mr. McHaney and see if he has any objection, because Hippke is also involved in the case concerning the SS medical men, but I certainly would think, as a practical matter, that he would have no objection to making him available for this afternoon, if that is what Dr. Bergold has in mind. I could go up and see Mr. McHaney at the recess this morning.\nTHE PRESIDENT:All right, will you do that, please? And if he has concluded his questioning of Hippke then Dr. Bergold may examine the witness this afternoon or this evening and be ready tomorrow morning. We will let the matter stand that way until after the eleven o'clock recess.\nDR. BERGOLD:May it please the Tribunal, I would now like to call Fritz Schmelter as a witness.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The Marshall will produce the witness.", "speakers": [ "MR. DENNEY", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 879, "page_number": "717", "date": "06 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-06", "text": "FRITZSCHMELTER:a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:You will raise your right hand and repeat this oath after me:\nI swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.\n(The witness repeated the oath.)\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:You may be seated.\nDIRECT EXAMINATION\nBY DR. BERGOLD:\nQ.Witness, will you give us your first name and you last name?\nA.Fritz Schmelter.\nQ.When were you born?\nA.On the third of March, 1904.\nQ.What was your position at the end of the war?\nA.At the end of the war, I was Central Department Manager at the Ministry of Armament. (Ministerial dirigent)\nQ.Do you know the Defendant Milch?\nA.Yes.\nQ.Do you see him in the courtroom?\nA.Yes.\nQ.Please point to him.\nDR. BERGOLD:I wish the record to show the witness recognized the Defendant Milch.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The record will show that the witness has recognized the Defendant.\nQ.Witness, how long have you known Milch?\nA.From sight, I have known him for a long time. I know him personally after I joined the Ministry in 1944.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Will you have the witness repeat the position held at the end of the war?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "BY DR. BERGOLD", "DR. BERGOLD", "FRITZ", "THE PRESIDENT", "JUDGE MUSMANNO" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 880, "page_number": "", "date": "06 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-06", "text": "DR. BERGOLD:I do not understand the question, Your Honor.\n717(a)", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 881, "page_number": "718", "date": "06 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-06", "text": "THE PRESIDENT:Will you have the witness repeat what position he held at the end of the war?\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes.\nQWitness, what was your position at the end of the war?\nAI was manager of Central Management. It concerned labor assignments and the distribution of labor in the Ministry of Armament.\nQWitness, you just said that you became a member of the Speer Ministry in 1944. What were your positions before that?\nAFrom May, 1942, up until the end of 1943, I was with the Organization Todt in Berlin. From 1938 to 1942, I was working for the Economy District Administration Hossen in Frankfurt am Main as Trustee. From 1934 until the end of 1937 I was in Berlin with Reichtrustee of Labor. Before that I had been an Assessor.\nQThank you. Witness, when and in what position did you have to do official business with the Defendant?\nAI had some dealings with him on official business after 1944 when I became Chief of the Amtsgruppeneinsatz in the Ministry of the Armament. I saw him again after the Jaegerstab was formed, that is, after March, 1944.\nQIn your position in the Ministry of Armament, did you have anything to do with the Central Planning Board?\nAI had something to do with them insofar as the Chief of Staff of the Armament office was concerned. He was my chief. I had to write down the necessary figures concerning labor assignments when I accompanied him at certain sessions of the Central Planning Board as assistant.\nQWhat time was that? Approximately.\nAAs far as I can remember the first session in which I participated was in February or March, 1944. I did not always participate in these sessions, only in a few of them when I accompanied the man I mentioned before.\nQDid the sessions of February and March, 1944, deal with labor assignments?", "speakers": [ "A", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 882, "page_number": "719", "date": "06 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-06", "text": "A.Yes.\nQ.During these conferences, were they trying to clear the numbers or the figures which were announced by Sauckel?\nA.In one of the conferences which I can remember, they wanted to make Sauckel a proposition concerning the distribution of labor which he wanted to provide. I remember that the Central Planning Board had a written proposition submitted to him. Sauckel said that he would acknowledge this proposal, but would take care of the distribution himself, personally.\nQ.Did they, during these sessions, try to find out whether the numbers and figures Sauckel reported were correct? If he mentioned figures which were too high, did they speak concerning these matters in this conference?\nA.I do not remember that day. But I know in various conferences, the question of reliability of the figures played a great part. There was always a difference between what Sauckel reported in the figures and what Speer reported.\nQ.Did this apply to both figures which Sauckel mentioned as having already happened, or did it apply to these figures which were from which laborers were to come?\nA.That applied particularly to the numbers of laborers who had already been brought. It was not possible to try to control the number of laborers wanted because it was only something that was being planned, nothing else.\nQ.That is correct, but from previous experiences, weren't they in a position to find out that Sauckel's promises were not being kept?\nA.At the time, they doubted that the figures which Sauckel reported could ever be brought up.\nQ.It is known to you that Sauckel during one of these conferences declared that out of five million foreign workers, only 200,000 came to them voluntarily?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 883, "page_number": "720", "date": "06 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-06", "text": "A.I cannot remember that.\nQ.Do you think that such a statement that out of 5 million workers. only 200,000 came voluntarily, could have been made by Sauckel at one of these conferences?\nA.According to my knowledge of the happenings, I do not believe that the figures could be correct.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 884, "page_number": "721", "date": "06 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-06", "text": "remember the figure in this case. If the number had been mentioned in my presence, I am sure it would have stuck me. Sauckel constantly stressed the point that the laborers who came to Germany came legally. In other words, I would have noticed it if Sauckel would have mentioned such a low number for those who came voluntarily.\nQ.Is it correct that in your position, as a member of the Speer Ministry, or in your capacity as a member of the Organization Todt, you very often participated in the staff meetings of Sauckel?\nA.Every month Sauckel would call such a staff meeting where representatives of the most important labor assignment ministries took part. I almost always participated in those meetings.\nQ.What other ministries apart from the Ministry of Armaments participated in those conferences?\nA.The Air Aviation Ministry, the OKW, the Economy Ministry, the Agricultural Ministry and I do not think I can remember anything further.\nQ.Was the Traffic Ministry there too?\nA.I do not remember that.\nQ.Did the Defendant Milch ever participate in those sessions?\nA.No. Those were conferences where the experts of the ministries took part; not the leaders and not their representatives either.\nQ.Who was the chief of the Air Aviation Ministry?\nA.Goering.\nQ.At this staff conferences, did Sauckel ever make any statements saying he brought the laborers voluntarily to the Reich?\nA.I remember that Sauckel repeatedly said approximately the following:\n\"They say that I am forcing laborers to come to Germany. Once somebody said I went to foreign countries with a lasso and caught people and brought them over to Germany. They said I forced them to come to Germany.\"\nFurthermore, he said, \"I declare all those things are not true. The laborers are brought to Germany by me on the basis of contracts with other governments, as far as there are governments in those occupied territories; or on the orders of the local military commanders or other local German agencies.\"", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 885, "page_number": "722", "date": "06 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-06", "text": "He asked us to tell our superiors his opinion on that question.\nQ.Did you ever talk about foreign laborers who came to Germany on a voluntary basis, I mean on the basis of recruitment?\nA.Yes.\nQ.Has he ever mentioned that those were small figures or large figures?\nA.He said that the laborers who came to Germany should be recruited. The number of people who came on a voluntary basis decreased. The number became smaller and smaller. He said the recruitment of labor was ordered by the French Government itself according to age groups.\nQ.Is it known to you that there was an agreement with the French government according to which for two laborers, one prisoner of war would be released to France.\nA.Yes.\nQ.Is it known to you that the French workers during their activity in Germany got leave once in a while?\nA.Yes.\nQ.A leave to France?\nA.Yes.\nQ.Did they ever return from their leave or did they just stay there?\nA.A greater part of them came back from their leave; quite a number did not come back. Part of the laborers who went on leaves did not come back. Some of them came back.\nQ.Was that the larger part that came back or the smaller part?\nA.I did not hear any figures concerning that. As far as I know the greatest of them came back. According to the factory manager, the larger part always came back, but of course I have no exact figures.\nMR. DENNEY:If Your Honor please, I have been lenient with Dr. Bergold on this.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 886, "page_number": "723", "date": "06 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-06", "text": "In this whole line of questioning he has been testifying. He can ask the witness \"Was there an agreement with the French Government?\" The witness can say \"Yes,\" and then he can ask what the contents was. I submit that the Doctor is testifying and the witness is not.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Your objection is he -\nMR.DENNEY: -- is leading the witness.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Yes.\nDR. BERGOLD:May I say something to this? There were several, agreements with the French government which could not be known by the witness. If I ask the question the way Mr. Denney suggests, I happen to know there were four or five agreements-\nTHE PRESIDENT:The objection is that you are putting the answers into the witness's mouth. When you ask the question you indicate to him the answer you expect. In American law that is termed a leading question and is objectionable. The Tribunal will dispose of the objection by warning you, Dr. Bergold, not to testify yourself, but to simply ask questions of the witness and let him give the answers.\nQThe Plenipotentiary General for Labor Assignment, Sauckel, during the session of the first of March, 1944, said in France there was never a contract on a voluntary basis.\nA.I do not know that.\nQ.Is that statement made by Sauckel correct?\nA.No. I do not think it is. It is not correct in respect to the other statements which he made. I never heard any other statements by him.\nQ.Witness, then he joined the Jaegerstab. Do you know anything about the creation of the Jaegerstab?\nA.Approximately on the first of March, I do not remember the exact date, I was asked by my Chief of Staff, to go to the Air Aviation Ministry where Milch and Mr. Sauer were present. He said the Air Armament was so badly damaged by the airraids, that there had to be a fighter program.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "MR.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 887, "page_number": "724", "date": "06 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-06", "text": "For that purpose a staff needed to be developed to hold daily conferences which would be necessary in order to increase the fighter production or at least bring it to the same level that it used to be. A number of gentlemen from the Air Aviation, as well as from the Armament Industry, were designated to take part or participate in these sessions, and to report to their offices what had taken place and put orders into effect.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 888, "page_number": "725", "date": "06 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-06", "text": "As a representative of the Armament Ministry, I was chosen to represent labor assignment. Later on I heard that this Jaegerstab Fighter Staff - was under the management of Speer and Milch and that Sauer was the manager of the Jaegerstab. Later on there were conferences almost daily, first at the Air Ministry and later on at a barracks at the Tempelhof, near Berlin. They dealt, first of all, with the production of the fighters and with all the questions in connection with the fighters and also with labor assignment.\nQ.Who directed these conferences?\nA.At the beginning Milch participated almost regularly in those sessions and he was the one that actually led or presided over the conferences; formally, that is. Mr. Sauer was the speaker most of the time. Mr. Speer very seldom, according to my recollection perhaps three or four times, participated in those sessions, which in those days were transferred to the Armament Ministry.\nQ.You just said that Milch at the beginning had the formal leadership. From what time on did that cease?\nA.After the transfer into the Armament Ministry, or rather, into the Caserne at Tempelhof. I don't remember the date. Milch did not participate as regularly as he did before. At those conferences after the change of the fighter staff into the Armament staff, he only participated there once or never.\nQ.Who was the chief or manager of the Fighter Staff?\nA.I don't remember that exactly. It was either Speer or Sauer. I don't remember that.\nQ.Who mostly led the conferences in practice?\nA.Sauer.\nMR. DENNEY:If Your Honor please, that translation came through as, \"Who was the chief of the Fighter Staff\", and Dr. Bergold used the word \"Ruestungsstab\". He was not talking about the Jaegerstab - these last three questions.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Do you want a correction made on the record?\nMR. DENNY:If Your Honor please.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "THE PRESIDENT", "MR. DENNY", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 889, "page_number": "726", "date": "06 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-06", "text": "DR. BERGOLD:Yes. I was speaking of the Ruestungsstab, which replaced the Jaegerstab.\nThere is one more thing to be mentioned here. My colleague tells me that the word \"Formally\" was translated with \"actually\", which is not correct.\nBY DR. BERGOLD:\nQ.Witness, was it known to you that before the creation of the Fighter Staff there existed certain differences between Milch and Sauer concerning the use of the contingents that were at their disposal?\nA.No. Before the creation of the Fighter Staff - that is, in the months of January and February - I participated at the conferences concerning the production of the Air Ministry once or twice which were initiated by the Armament Ministry, the same conferences took place with the Navy Ministry, and I never heard of any differences which they had there.\nQ.Witness, concerning the conferences of the staff, there were always minutes or records taken. Is that known to you?\nA.Yes.\nQ.Apart from those minutes, were any other minutes taken?\nA.Yes, the verbatim record - I want to call it a \"result record\" was compiled and these records were sent to all of the offices which were interested in those conferences. Those verbatim records were taken down by stenographers during the session and according to my knowledge were sent only to Mr. Speer, and of course they remained with both Sauer and Milch. In other words, very few copies were made.\nQ.Were these verbatim records ever controlled?\nA.No, I don't think so. I don't believe that the large records were read or checked by someone else.\nQ.Can one say then that the decisions of the Jaegerstab were contained in the result records?\nA.Not only the decisions but also the more important deliberations that took place. However, when decisions were made, then they were in the records and the result records.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 890, "page_number": "727", "date": "06 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-06", "text": "Q.During these conferences did it ever occur that the participants were not always present?\nA.That happened very often because the sessions lasted for a long time and it happened many times that I, for instance, was called out and ordered to take care of my business, at least by telephone, and the members of the Fighter Staff did not always participate in the conferences, but later on - that is, from May on - they had representatives or deputies replace them.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 891, "page_number": "728", "date": "06 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-06", "text": "Q.Did those sessions often result in single discussions?\nA.That always happened once in a while, particularly when technical questions were discussed where very few experts could say something.\nQ.I shall now proceed to the labor assignment within the Fighter Staff. How did the Jaegerstab deal with the questions of labor assignment?\nA.As with all the production discussions of other programs, labor assignment questions were discussed at the sessions of the Fighter Staff. I had the task, concerning these labor assignment questions, to pass it through my office chief and so far the tasks which I had with the Jaegerstab overlapped my other duties and tasks with other organizations; in other words, if you want to know exactly or if you want to have a detailed description of what my tasks were which I had to do in general -\nQ.I want to know what you had to do with the labor assignment of the Jaegerstab and what was your main task there; otherwise, we will be here about an hour or so.\nA.Amongst other things, we had the task, on the basis of the reports of the various factories which came over the armament inspectorates to me, to write a proposition how those red slips were to be distributed on the individual production. In the Fighter Staff, I also had the task to distribute those red slips in such a way that the most important factories would get the necessary number of red slips. The red slips were orders to the labor assignment offices or agencies of Speer; in other words, to the armament inspectorates and to the armament commandos, and were given from Sauckel to his labor assignment agencies which were to provide preferentially the necessary amount of workers on the basis of those red slips. I furthermore had the task to take care of transfers of laborers who already were in the armament industry by giving respective orders to my agency and requesting Sauckel to carry out these things; since regarding the Fighter production, the question was, in the first place, concerning experts only transfers of this kind were carried out.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 892, "page_number": "", "date": "06 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-06", "text": "Skilled workers were no longer assigned to us by Sauckel in 1944. My main activity, therefore, concerned transfers from one of the industries to the other, 728 A and as regards the Fighter Staff, in transfers from the destroyed bomber factories or from other obsolete aircraft types to the Fighter factories which were working full.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 893, "page_number": "729", "date": "06 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-06", "text": "I finally had the task to deal with the transfer of the armament workers to the Wehrmacht as soldiers and I had to take care of those. In 1944, through several actions, many laborers were withdrawn from the armament industry and transferred to the Army. That concerned particularly skilled workers. It was my task now, together with those responsible for the production to take care of the distribution in such a manner that the armament industry be hampered as little as possible in their production.\nQ.Is it known to you that Milch tried to see to it that as a friend of the Fighter factories, no people had to go to the Wehrmacht?\nA.Yes, from all the factories and particularly from the Fighter factories they tried to send as few laborers as possible to the Army. At the beginning of the early days of the Jaegerstab--in other words, in the month of March and April approximately, we tried to relieve the Fighter program concerning deliverying laborers to the Wehrmacht. Later on, this was very difficult to be carried out. I knew, however, that Milch tried his very best to give as few people as possible to the Wehrmacht from the Jaegerstab production, that is of the Jaegerstab factories.\nQ.Witness, you just said that concerning the request for assignment of workers, you suggested to Sauckel during these meetings, there is a word by Sauer that says, \"We take care of labor assignment.\" What is correct now? Did you just request them or did the Jaegerstab actually take care of the assignment?\nA.The Fighter Staff was not able to give orders to offices which did not belong to the Speer Ministry or to the Aviation Ministry. The Jaegerstab, very often by Sauer and perhaps by Milch, gave directions. I can't remember, concerning Milch, whether exactly such words were used there. In reality, however, it was quite different. I appeared at Sauckel's and I was ordered to tell him about the creation of the Jaegerstab and its importance concerning the Fighter production, with the request that when laborers be distributed, the Fighter Staff production should be considered in the first place.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 894, "page_number": "", "date": "06 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-06", "text": "An order to 729A Sauckel was never given by me and I am sure that Sauckel would certainly not have followed my request, particularly as he always repeatedly stressed the point that he was independent and was responsible only to the leader of the Four-Year Plan and Hitler.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 895, "page_number": "730", "date": "06 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-06", "text": "QWhen Saur made such a statement, \"We will take care of the labor assignment, \"why do you think he said that?\nAWell, once in a while such strong words were used. I never considered this statement very seriously and I didn't react to it because I knew exactly that nothing would happen afterwards, and nothing really happened. I was sure that in the presence of Sauckel, the labor assignment should have been taken care of by the Fighter Staff, but it was impossible to take care of that for one single production. Everyone who had something to do with the labor assignment could understand that.\nQWitness, you just spoke concerning boasting remarks. Is it known to you that Milch often used such strong exaggerated boasting remarks during these meetings?\nAI don't remember single statements made by Milch, but I am sure that they occurred. What I am to say now is that it appeared to me that Milch very often, particularly concerning the industry and his own generals, wanted to boast in order to play the strong man, I believe, however, that these statements did not always achieve the desired impression he wished to create.\nQDo you mean to say that they were not taken seriously?\nAWell, not quite seriously, anyway.\nQWere you present during the conference of the Fighter Staff where Milch had made a long speech to the Air Force engineers and the quartermaster chiefs?\nAI was there partly. I remember now that the session which took place in the Air Aviation Ministry -- there were 100 people there at the time, and I have to remind you of the fact that I wasn't present during all those conferences.\nQHowever, can you remember that Milch used boasting expressions in that conference?", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 896, "page_number": "731", "date": "06 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-06", "text": "ANo, I can't remember the speech itself.\nQDo you remember the way Milch spoke about someone with whom he had difficulties? (Dr. Bergold uses a German slang expression.)\nINTERPRETER:The statement made by the defense counsel cannot be translated.\nAI cannot remember this statement of his. I cannot remember Milch's statement.\nQWitness, the prosecution introduced a document during the trial where Goering gives Himmler a Fighter Group in exchange for the use of concentration camp inmates which were put at the disposal of the Air Force Armament. Do you know anything about that?\nAWhat Fighter Group do you mean?\nQI mean a squadron -- a whole squadron was placed at the disposal of the SS and Goering wanted to have concentration camp inmates from the SS. Do you remember anything about that? It was on the 15th of February 1944.\nAI can't remember that exactly. The way it was: Goering, that is the Luftwaffe, put a great number of soldiers at his disposal for immediate production. They got their leave. But if they ever exchanged laborers for concentration camp inmates, I do not know today anymore. It could be possible; however, I can't tell for sure.\nQWitness, is it known to you that, in the Fighter Staff, they were often transferred from the construction sector to the plenipotentiary for chemistry?\nANo. In any case, I don't know that this was done to a considerable extent. It is possible that it also was said during my presence that the plenipotentiary for the chemical industry had too many workers in the construction sector and a few of them had to be transferred back to the chemical industry, lots of complaints were made. However, I can't remember anything concrete.\nQWitness, can you remember that Milch tried to be able to get certain engineers from Hitler who were working in Berchtesgaden?", "speakers": [ "A", "INTERPRETER", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 897, "page_number": "732", "date": "06 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-06", "text": "AI believe I can remember that. The question of the engineers was discussed very often because in the construction sector this was a big bottle neck. I remember also that concerning the construction works in Berchtesgaden it was discussed in this connection and that one hoped to be able to get not only engineers but other skilled workers from the construction works carried out in Berchtesgaden for Hitler.\nQWitness, I shall now read to you from the ExhibitNOKW-337. That is Document Book No. 4 of the Prosecution Exhibit No.75. I shall now read to you a statement made by Milch: \"We spoke to the Fuehrer--\" NOKW-337.\nMR. DENNEY:Page 133 of Document Book No. 4.\nBY DR. BERGOLD:\nQThat is on Page 18 of the original document.\n\"We further appeal to the Fuehrer that we should get the 64 engineers who are in Berchtesgaden as the work there will probably soon be finished. He made a suggestion that we, like the SS, should also train engineers in a greater extent and mentioned the figure of 10,000 that would have to be trained one after another because they could not all be trained at once.\"", "speakers": [ "A", "MR. DENNEY", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 898, "page_number": "733", "date": "06 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-06", "text": "QWitness, I shall now ask you to make some sort of statement concerning this statement made by Milch, and I would like to know if these engineers who were trained by the SS were concentration camp inmates and if the figure, 10,000 could be possible?\nAI don't know what sort of engineers the SS trained. I take it that the engineers were concentration camp inmates because the SS, in their construction works, preferred to work with concentration camp inmate I also know the statement concerning those 10,000 engineers which was made by Milch, and I believe that the number of 10,000 is somewhat exaggerated because, according to my knowledge of the construction, only a very few miners are used in the construction program, but never such a large number.\nQWitness, is it known to you that the use of concentration camp inmates was carried out in small closed groups?\nAYes, as far as the SS used concentration camp inmates, outside of their own factories, this was obviously only carried out in larger groups of about 500 to 1,000.\nQIs it possible that during constructions, a few engineers or engineers were concentration camp inmates?\nAWhen the rest of the workers were not concentration camp inmates, then, according to the regulations of the SS, I personally don't believe that there were 50 or 100 concentration camp inmates there also and I don't know of any such cases. I know that the SS always required that the concentration camp inmates be taken in large numbers and that they should be used in groups and billeted in groups.\nQIn other words, is it a possibility that the SS also used people of their own as engineers, apart from those concentration camp inmates?\nAI couldn't tell you because I did not know the situation with the SS. However, that is possible.\nQWe're not talking about SS construction only, but construction in general.\nAI didn't understand the question.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 899, "page_number": "734", "date": "06 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-06", "text": "QThe question was: If the SS ever used engineers from their own ranks and if they trained them?\nANo; I don't know anything about that either.\nQDo you know if the SS had a school for building workers.\nANo, I don't know that either. I never heard of any building workers' school. The workers learned that during their experience.\nDR. BERGOLD:I shall prove later on that there was a miners' school with the SS. I shall now proceed toNOKW-388. This is, in the English index, on the first page, 138, Your Honor.\nQThey say that, from Italy, skilled workers came. The passage reads as follows: \"Very few come from the West and they are slowly starting to come from Italy. There are comparatively few skilled workers among them.\" What kind of labor assignment was that from Italy?\nAI don't understand your question. You want to know who carried it out?\nQYes.\nAThe forces that Sauckel brought from Italy.\nQYes; were these prisoners?\nANo.\nQWere they civil workers?\nANo; if you read the passage like that, I'm sure that they were civilians who were brought from Italy by Sauckel.\nQIn the same document, a few pages further on, you say, from the page which I have just read now, this is page 52 of the original; \"A letter is on the way from the Minister to Mr. Sauckel. During the first three months Sauckel has brought in between 300,000 and 400,000 people, but not even a miserable 66,000 \"red tickets\" could be dispatched.\" Milch continues: \"I personally cannot get over it! Take the help away from the housewives! In the past year 800,000 domestic servants have been negotiated and we are fighting for 2,000 men!\"\nWitness, who was the Minister who wrote to Sauckel? It says here, \"A letter from the Minister.\"", "speakers": [ "A", "DR. BERGOLD", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 900, "page_number": "", "date": "06 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-06", "text": "A.I don't remember that.\nQ.Minister?\nA.Probably Speer. I think this was Speer.\nQ.If it says here, Sauckel brought in from 300,000 to 400,000 people during the first three months, do they mean that these were new recruitments?\nA.No, those were statements made by Sauckel that he had brought in some people. Partly, I can remember that approximately. They were probably people who were found mostly abroad and partly in Germany as well; but not transfers, I don't think that they mean transfers from one factory to the other.\nQ.Well where did they find peoplo in Germany -- I mean domestic servants in Germany?\nA.Well, in Germany, various people were found -Laborers, that is, particularly the younger ages. Then the civilian factories were brought against, in 1944, the so-called war production, not the armament, that part of the production which was under the orders of Speer, which dealt with the production of civilian products were combed out. I remember that the combing out of 1944 brought about 200,000 laborers which were only assigned to the armament. From the fluctuation forces, there were several people who were combed out. Sometimes, in autumn, for instance, when the agriculture could not use all the people they had on hand, they were transferred to the armament, and others, sugar factories, for instance, delivered some workers to the armament too.\nQ.Right now I'm only talking about the 200,000 people who were put at the disposal -- combed out, that is -were these people also considered as brought in Sauckel's term? 735", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 901, "page_number": "", "date": "06 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-06", "text": "A.That is very difficult to say, because one should know the whole connection. Unfortunately, I can't remember that today. When he said \"bringing them in\" he probably meant he brought them in from the exterior. Of course it is possible 735(a) that everything that was found was also considered brought in.", "speakers": [ "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 902, "page_number": "", "date": "06 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-06", "text": "O cannot actually understand what this means -\n735-b one should know the whole connection, of course and can not draw definite conclusions from such a term.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 903, "page_number": "736", "date": "06 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-06", "text": "THE PRESIDENT:The Court will recess for a few minutes.\n(A recess was taken)", "speakers": [ "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 904, "page_number": "737", "date": "06 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-06", "text": "THE MARSHAL:Tribunal No. 2 is again in session.\nBY DR. BERGOLD:\nQWitness, on the question of the number of workers required; do you know of an Order of Hitler, according to which in the constructions of Berchtsgaden, no concentration camp inmates and foreigners were to be used?\nAI did not know of the order myself, but I do know, however, that it was said that neither foreigners nor concentration camp inmates could be used there; I did not know of the orders myself.\nDR. BERGOLD:I now turn back to Document No.NOKW-388, with which we were concerned before, at Page 138, we were discussing the part where according to Sauckel 300,000 to 400,000 workers were brought in but not even 66,000 red slips could be filled. What are the additional forces that could not be used for red slips?\nTHE WITNESS:I did not quite understand the question.\nDR. BERGOLD:You stated during the first three months Sauckel has brought in between 300,000 and 400,000 people, but you added that unfortunately only 66,000 red slips could be honored. What sort of manpower were the other workers, the difference between the 66,000 and the 300,000?\nTHE WITNESS:Those two numbers can not be compared. In other words, the 300,000 that were brought in, and the red slip numbers, were the number of requests. The passage should probably read that if Sauckel had brought in two or three hundred thousand it would have been possible for him to provide the 66,000 for red slip requirements.\nDR. BERGOLD:I turn now to the next page, 53 of the original. Here you stated it would be necessary to have workers, to take them from somewhere else, and Milch says: \"You know our position. We are convinced that you are doing everything you can.", "speakers": [ "THE WITNESS", "A", "DR. BERGOLD", "Q", "THE MARSHAL" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 905, "page_number": "", "date": "06 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-06", "text": "But we must now commit a robbery. We can no longer operate along legal lines.\" You interrupted and said, \"That is the only possibility. There will be abuse but we must accept that.\"\nQWhat do you understand under the term \"robbery\"?\n(No response)\nDR. BERGOLD:Perhaps, if I could show you the document, you can answer?\n737 A", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 906, "page_number": "738", "date": "06 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-06", "text": "THE WITNESS:I no longer recall it. It appears to have taken place, but to my recollection, I can not place it. The only thing that it can mean was a request to other industries Milch probably thought of taking the workers for the Luftwaffe from other industries and other branches of production. I did not contradict him then, because at that time I knew it was entirely out of the question, that the other industries would not have permitted it. There is no statement hero as to what actually happened, as a result of this. It simply is one of those boasts, to which I referred before.\nDR. BERGOLD:\nQIt was simply one of those proposals or statements which you previously characterized as witness as a strongly exaggerat ed statement?\nAWhen he said this, the only possibility (pause) when I said that was the only thing we could do, I meant that probably ironically, but I do not recall that statement.\nQBy \"robbery\" did he possibly mean that they should be stolen from a foreign country?\nAWhether Milch meant that, I do not know, but I certainly did not understand it so, because I could have told him it was entirely out of the question. Besides Sauckel, no one was permitted on his own initiative to take foreign workers.", "speakers": [ "THE WITNESS", "A", "DR. BERGOLD", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 907, "page_number": "739", "date": "06 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-06", "text": "QPlease turn the page forward and find the passage in which there is a discussion of taking by force workers from other industries, could that be discussed under the word \"robberies\" here?\nAI don't find the passage.\nQIt reads \"the proposal to take agricultural workers and give them to the air industry and not to return them has not been accepted by Sauckel.\" Thereupon Milch said \"that that is out of the question; nothing is going to be taken away from the fighter production.\" What does Mich mean here?\nAThe situation in the autumn was as follows: In the autumn agriculture, that is in 1943 and also in 1944, surrendered a number of workers loaned them to armaments, with the understand that they Would be returned to agriculture in the Spring when they were needed. The return caused enormous difficulties since the plants did not want to return those workers, who in the course of the winter had been trained. This question was discussed at great length. Sauckel had undertaken the obligation to return those workers in the following Spring especially as they had after all also been trained for agriculture during the past summer and he insisted also in contradiction to Speer's wishes that agriculture should receive the workers back. As far as I recall there was even a discussion of this with Hitler whether these forces had to be returned or not. Milch's wish, when the fighter production stood in the fore-front, and was called most important armament in March, not to return these workers was also communicated to Sauckel and here also he insisted that they should be returned. Then apparently this passage refers to this refusal by Milch to give them back; but they had to be given back after all.\nQThen if he made such a statement that they would not be given back to them; would such an action be robbery?", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 908, "page_number": "", "date": "06 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-06", "text": "AYes, it must have been something of that sort.At least it would have been an order that contradicted all existing orders, namely, that they should be given back as ordered by Sauckel.\nQThen Milch speaks on the next page of the following matter:\n\"We must protect all plant which work for fighter air craft industries, You should not surrender people except on orders of the Fighter staff. Nobody can get at you, not even high offices or ministerial directors; all requests have to be made to the fighter staff; we want to state this fundamentally as an order.\n739A then further below, he says we must write a latter to General Keitel and the OKW in which it will be said requests are to be made only directly to the Jaegerstab Can it be deduced from this passage that the Fighter Staff really had these workers at its disposal?", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 909, "page_number": "740", "date": "06 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-06", "text": "AIt was a question here of workers who were already employed in the Fighter Production. According to the agreement between Speer and Sauckel, as a basic principle, armament plants should not surrender workers except with the approval of the corresponding armament authorities. This agreement also extended to the Luftwaffe probably, although the Luftwaffe armament was previously independent; it extended to the Fighter Staff though. At this time, according to the orders then existing, in other words, no workers could be withdrawn as a matter of practice. This order was frequently disobeyed, and apparently in this case Milch was correct that demands for workers from air production should, if at all, be directed to the Fighter Staff. Also, inductions into the army were carried out in such a way that the armament industries received a certain quota, let us say 100,000 men should be given up; the distribution or allocation of this quota to the individual district and finally to the individual plants was being carried out by the armament agencies themselves, who knew where the workers could best be snared. This principle was infringed upon again when the so-called measures for total war were introduced. At that time workers were to be given to the Wehrmacht and not to the armament agencies or the plant managers, but by the party agency that Goebbels instituted. Consequently enormous difficulties frequently arose. And it is possible, although I don't know what time this statement was made, but it is possible that this has reference to that.\nQThis is the meeting of 28 March 1944.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 910, "page_number": "", "date": "06 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-06", "text": "ANo, that cannot be, because the measures for total war were taken later.\nQBut it means, however, that the Fighter Staff had a right to protect its workers?\nANo, as previously the Jaegerstab could only keep or dispose of such workers as it had already.\n740 A", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 911, "page_number": "741", "date": "06 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-06", "text": "QI come now to the next document on the next pageNOKW 365, page 142, which complains especially that they have no need to make demands on Sauckel if no demands would be carried cut. Is this statement here reproduced correctly? Was that your complaint?\nAIt is quite possible. I mean they were very pressed for workers; I can very well believe they said our hands are tied if Sauckel doesn't issue any orders. That is probably the reason for this statement of mine.\nQ.I come now to the next document,NOKW 334, page 143 of the English book. It is a question at this time of prisoners of war who were employed in Truebau and were to be transferred to Brunswick. According to this document, the competent General Schmidt protested this transfer because they were employed in a concern at Brunswick where fighter squadrons were present, and he wasn't in a position to transfer them, and Gabel said they must -- and Gabel then said the prisoners must go to Brunswick. Who was Gabel?\nAI don't know at the moment.\nQDoes it mean that the prisoners will go there if Brunswick is attacked? What does it mean?\nAIf Brunswick continues to be attacked. That of course means that he would think it was a wonderful idea because they were prisoners of war.\nQOr it could mean that if Brunswick were attacked he wanted to transfer the prisoners. Were you present at this meeting?\nAI don't know; I don't recall being there, if I was present at this conversation. I can't recall the transfer question.\nQIn other words, you cannot make a definite statement about this passage?\nANo.\nQDo you know that once at the plant at Erla there was an uprising of Russian prisoners of war?\nANo.\nQI come now toNOKW 442, a few pages later. Here you are speaking of a transport of Italians -- 50,000 Italians have not yet been transported. It was due to the fact that the escort for the transport has not yet been ap pointed.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q.", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 912, "page_number": "742", "date": "06 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-06", "text": "The conversation with Plenipotentiary yesterday in Milan proved that the transport should leave today for this place Woerl (?) where further distribution will be undertaken. Who were these 50,000 Italians?\nASo far as I can recall, these were Italian internees; there were about half a million Italians already being employed in Germany in 1943; allegedly there were another 50,000 in Italy who had not been brought over. I assume that this conversation is dealing with those 50,000.\nQIt is spoken of here that this is an action on our part. Who is this \"our part\"?\nAThe Fighter Staff.\nQWho said that?\nASauckel said that? Who said that?\nQWho said this is an action on our part; is that an action on the part of Speer or the Fighter Staff; he says this is our undertaking.\nAI mean to say at this time this was an action on the part mainly for the Ministry and that Sauckel undertook it because the transport was to be carried out by Nagel. Nagel was transportation chief for Speer's Ministry. The difficulties involved in bringing over forces from Italy were very strong particularly in the transportation field. I know that at that time negotiations were being carried on with Nagel so that he should bring them over in trucks. Thus the transportation will have to be carried out by vehicles of the Ministry and for that reason Sauckel thought he had certain rights over these people. That is to say, this action of ours means that we have brought them over; consequently, we want to use them in the armament industries where they are needed. I recall also that Sauckel was agreeable to this. He said if you transport these people, then you can keep them and use them as you want to. That question mark in there, the inquiry, was a transient camp where the workers from Italy were kept before further distribution. The camp belonged to Sauckel.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 913, "page_number": "743", "date": "06 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-06", "text": "Q.Now, I come toNOKW-336and from my document book I wish to use page 91; my own page 91. Page 156, I believe, of the English Document Book, page 80 of the original. Milch said: \"How long do the Italian PW's actually work? Schmeltor: As long as the factory works. There is a regulation that PC's must work so long. Milch: Could you not look into this? You can see people on the streets about 4 or 5 o'clock and nobody after that. Schmelter: I can look into it. \"Milch says: \"I do not believe that any Italian prisoner of war works 72 hours. Schmelter: They will probably work in those factories less than 72 hours. Can't we have them all work 64 hours? In this way me could get along if everybody did that. \"That was a statement by Milch. \"Schmelter: I have already made the suggestion that in civil production workers should work longer. We have many who work 48 hours. Milch; Than we could hit a compromise. We don't always have to have them work 72 hours.\" What was Milch's aim in making such a suggestion?\nA.Probably he wanted to bring it about that the manpower of the Italian war prisoners should be fully exploited.\nQ.And as respect to the prisoners who work 72 hours; what about them?\nA.It's to be assumed from his remarks in general that they should have a lower number of work hours frequently.\nQ.Is this for both German and foreign workers?\nA.Yes. The 72 hour week was established right in the first days of the Jaegerstab on order of the Jaegerstab. In my opinion that was a rather exclusive requirement which was not put into practice because of that. In the course of the first few months they tried to roach a more reasonable regulation of this.\nQ.What do you know about labor utilization of English and American prisoners of war?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 914, "page_number": "", "date": "06 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-06", "text": "That is to say, Americans and British who were captured in Germany?\n743 A", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 915, "page_number": "744", "date": "06 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-06", "text": "A.In 1944, that is to say, in my time, no new prisoners of war were used because we didn't capture any more. So far as I knew British and American prisoners of war were not used in armament factories. Repeatedly proposals in this direction were made also in the case of non-coms and officers. In the case of Officers -- it was Polish Officers, if I recall, no change in the regulations was made, so far as I recall. Instructions were transmitted to the OKW but I do not know if anything came of them.\nQ.I come now to your two sworn affidavits of 19 November 1946; Exhibit No. 76 is a sworn affidavit of yours of that date.NOKW-266, dated 19 November, page 101. I should ask you not to interrupt my questions, otherwise the translation will not come through. Under No. 4 you said that Chief of Staff Sauer distributed the workers in the Fighter Staff. Now, what should that mean? Docs that mean a transfer or is that where he directed it himself or what does it mean?\nA.That is to say, that because of the stoppage of production in armor production there were available manpower forces and the workers were distributed partially by Sauer himself in the Fighter Staff meetings. For example, it was determined that workers should transfer from one plant to another, particularly since they were skilled laborers.\nQ.Did you know that in 1944 in order to protect the aircraft industry there were underground and protected factories built?\nA.Yes.\nQ.You know who gave the original order for this?\nA.So far as I know the order for this re-location of industries in subterranean plants was given from the Fighter Staff itself. I was not competent in this matter but naturally I took part in the discussions of this Fighter Staff and heard it there.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 916, "page_number": "", "date": "06 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-06", "text": "I heard that it was decided that as to bombed-out factories, a different place which the Fighter Staff would determine should be 744 A re-located to these places.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 917, "page_number": "745", "date": "06 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-06", "text": "Q.That's no answer to my question. Witness, I asked who gave the original order for the construction of these subterranean factories? Do you know that?\nA.If I may repeat; you want to know who ordered in the first place that these plants should be transferred to subterranean factories? That I do not know.\nQ.Do you know Herr Kammler?\nA.Yes.\nQ.Do you know from whom he received the order to construct these special subterranean factories?\nA.Here again I do not know precisely who gave him the original order. In any event at the first beginning of the Fighter Staff Kammler became a member and was commissioned to undertake the construction of subterranean buildings for Fighter Staff protection. The Fighter Staff also assigned or told him what individual objectives. He report d from time to time how many square meters were now ready. But who first originally gave these orders to Kammler whether it was Himmler or Hitler or some agreement or something like that, I don't know.\nQ.Was Kammler commissioned with this and in this Fighter Staff because of an order of Himmler or because of some special order elsewhere?\nA.I am not able to say, I assume that Himmler also gave him an order. The individual orders, what he was to build, he received from the Fighter Staff.\nQ.Witness, you said previously that within the frame of your tasks you entered Speer's Ministry?\nA.No, I did not say that. Within the framework of my tasks I represented the armament office.\nQ.But the armament office was part of Speer's Ministry?\nA.Yes.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 918, "page_number": "746", "date": "06 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-06", "text": "Q.Did Kammler, within the Fighter Staff represent Himmler?\nA.I do not know his powers or his functions and I cannot say. He was in the construction sector. That I know, but Himmler had charge of more things than really construction.\nQ.Do you know Dorsch?\nA.Yes.\nQ.Is it true that those above-ground plants in the Fighter Staff were discussed in individual meetings of the Fighter Staff. I also know that at first it was considered who should be commissioned with the construction of those buildings. Whether Kammler or the construction organization, namely, the Plenipotentiary General for construction, that was mainly the predecessor of Borsch. Then in a meeting at which I was not present, I have only heard of those things accidentally, it was decided to choose Borsch for this. Proposals were made to Hitler regarding this construction. So far as I know, Dorsch also supplements these proposals on the technical side. The decision that construction was to be undertaken was taken so far as I know by Himmler. It was broken down into six parts, the first of which - however, at first only one or two were carried out.\nQ.A correction; the decision was made not by Himmler but by Hitler. Did you know whether Speer or Milch were against tho construction of such above-ground plants?\nA.No, I do not.\nQ.That wasn't discussed in the Fighter Staff, or were you present at such meetings?\nA.No, as I said, I wasn't present when this question came up. That did not concern no but I believe -- well, I don't know.\nDR. BERGOLD:No further questions to the witness.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 919, "page_number": "747", "date": "06 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-06", "text": "Mr. DENNEY: If Your Honor please, I have spoken with William McHaney about the possibility of Dr. Bergold interrogating Dr. Hippke, and he has no objections to it. In view of the lateness, I would rather not start on this witness now, if it would be agreeable to the Court. We are not going to sit this afternoon and -\nTHE PRESIDENT:May I use part of the time for a couple of question to the witness?\nMR. DENNEY:Yes.\nBY THE PRESIDENT:\nQ.Will you try to answer these questions as simply and briefly as you can. Were Russian prisoners of War used in the armament industry?\nA.In the armaments plant Russian prisoners of War were also employed. At what they were employed, I do not know, since they were already there when I came and I did not myself inspect the plants.\nQ.Did you ever see Russian prisoners of war either manufacturing or transporting munitions of war?\nA.In plants and in transports? No. Neither in plants nor in transports did I see Russian prisoners of war.\nQ.That question is perfectly clear and you understand it?\nA.I shall repeat it. I was asked whether these prisoners of war worked -- whether I have seen them in plants or in transport.\nQ.That's right.\nA.And I answered in the negative.\nQ.Were Russian prisoners of war used in the decentralization of the Luftwaffe after the heavy bombings?\nA.Not that I know of. So far as I know, after the heavy bombings Russian prisoners of war were no longer available. They had already been assigned elsewhere. I do know that after the heavy bombings, that is, in the year 1944, new Russian prisoners of war were not used in armaments or in the bombed out factories. It is, of course, possible that the local labor offices used Russian prisoners of war for this purpose, but we in the central offices knew nothing of this.\nQ.Will you answer the same questions as to Polish prisoners of war?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "MR. DENNEY", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 920, "page_number": "748", "date": "06 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-06", "text": "A.So far as I know, Polish prisoners of war consisted solely of officers. Only officers were available. The others had been freed. The officers, however in contradiction to many wishes that were expressed, were not used. At least if they were , I know nothing of it.\nQ.Will you answer the same questions as to Hungarian Jews.\nA.Hungarian Jews, among other things, were used in the construction of fighters -- fighter planes. Female Hungarian Jews were also used in the actual construction of fighter planes.\nQ.Were they voluntary workers?\nA.No. Those were inmates of concentration camps, prisoners at the disposal of the SS.\nQ.So the Hungarian Jews who were employed in the manufacture of fighter planes were forced to work in that connection?\nA.The Hungarian Jews, so far as I recall, were offered by the SS to be employed in armament production. At first there were 1,000 of them, or 500 who were employed. Then a number of plants said that they wanted such workers and they were then allotted by the SS to these plants and there they were obliged to work.\nQ.Then the SS, which was one branch of the German military establishment, simply dealt out the Hungarian Jews to anybody who needed them?\nA.No. Thu Hungarian Jews, like all concentration camp inmates, were housed in camps that were either in or near the plants and which were constructed by the SS. They were then taken to work every day, and after the work they were again brought back by the SS to the camps. Also, the supervision of the work, for security reasons, was carried out by the SS. So far as the technical side of it was concerned, it was carried out by the representatives of the plant.\nQ.Of course you don't claim they were paid for their work?\nA.That I do not know. I do know only the general regulations concerning concentration camp prisoners, and I know them in part. I know that these prisoners, at least toward the end, also received some sort of wages. What the payment was, I do not know. I do know that the plant had to give the SS a certain amount for each prisoner, but what the prisoner himself received, I do not know.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 921, "page_number": "749", "date": "06 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-06", "text": "Q.Do you know whether these Hungarian Jews worked through any contract with foreign government, as was the case in France?\nA.Let me repeat the question whether Hungarian Jews worked on the basis of an agreement with a foreign power -- foreign government. Was that the question?\nQ.Yes.\nA.Not that I know of.\nQ.I have no other questions. One more question please. You said that you know that Russian prisoners of war were working in the armament factories but you didn't know what kind of work they were doing.\nA.Yes.\nQ.Did you ever see them in any of the factories?\nA.No.\nQ.What do you think they were doing?\nA.I guess some of them were engaged in construction. So far as skilled workers were concerned they were certainly working at tasks that they were qualified to do. So far as they were unskilled workers they might have been doing almost anything.\nQ.If they were working in munition factories they were doing something to manufacture munitions, were they not?\nA.If they worked in munitions factories then they must, of course, have had something to do with manufacturing munitions, even if they only worked in the courtyard, or something like that. They still had something to do with the manufacture of munitions.\nBY JUDGE MUSMANNO:\nQ.Witness, much has been said about the importation of women workers as domestic labor. Do you know what these women actually did when they were brought into Germany?\nA.Let me repeat the question. I was asked whether I knew what the women who were brought to Germany did. Was that the question?\nQ.Yes.\nA.I do not know, because I did not visit any plants at all, or almost none.\nQ.But when they were used as domestic labor, that phrase has been used often in the various interrogatories. Do you know what is meant by that phrase?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 922, "page_number": "750", "date": "06 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-06", "text": "AYes, they were servant girls or as domestic servants in individual households. So far as I know there were perhaps 50 to 60,000 foreign female workers in individual households where they worked.\nBY JUDGE PHILLIPS:\nQWitness, did you ever know of any prisoners of war, especially Russians, being used to man anti-aircraft guns?\nAIn the construction or in the use of the anti-aircraft?\nQIn the use of anti-aircraft.\nAYes, I have heard of that. I heard that Russian prisoners of war were used to man anti-aircraft guns of that sort.\nQDo you have any idea how many were used for that purpose?\nANo, I don't.\nQDid you ever see them being used for that purpose?\nANo.\nQOn what fronts were they used?\nAI believe they were used on the home front, not on the actual battle front, but that is simply my opinion.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 923, "page_number": "751", "date": "06 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-06", "text": "Q.Against American planes, British planes and Russian planes?\nA.They shot at whatever planes were over Germany.\nJUDGE PHILLIPS:That is all.\nDR. BERGOLD:May I ask one further question?\nTHE PRESIDENT:Yes.\nBY DR. BERGOLD:\nQ.Witness, you spoke of female Jews. When were these female Jews employed?\nA.I do not know the precise date. It was the summer of In my estimation, it must have been May.\nQ.Let me show youNOKW 359. It is the next to the last document of the Prosecution, Stenographic Notes on the Jaegerstab Meeting of 27 June 1944. You said, \"I have a few more points. Up until now 12,000 female concentration camp internees, Jewesses, have been demanded. The matter is now in order. The SS has agreed to deliver these Hungarian Jewesses in batches of 500. Thus the smaller firms, too, will be in a better position to employ these concentration camp Jewesses. I request that these people should be ordered in batches of 500.\"\nIs this the point of time from when onward these females were used?\nA.Yes. It must have been about this time. The difficulty was the following: The SS demanded that the females should should be delivered in batches of thousands only. Most factories could not use such a large number of females. Consequently, the SS was asked if it could not deliver them in smaller groups. That is the reason.\nQ.Witness, is there a difference between the concept of \"Ruestungsfabrik\" which means armament factory and \"Munitionsfabrik\" which means a munitions factory? Is there a difference in Germany?\nA.Ruestungsfabrik took care of all sorts of armament production, materials, finishing up the deliveries and so on and so forth. Munitionsfabrik is the narrower concept and contents itself with the manufacture of munitions only.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "JUDGE PHILLIPS", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 924, "page_number": "752", "date": "06 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-06", "text": "Q.Did the Munitionsfabrik belong inside the concept of \"Luftruestung\" air armament?\nA.So far as the Luftruestung is concerned, they did, yes. The limitation of these concepts was not however uniform. Unfortunately, we had very few uniform concepts. They were often misused.\nQ.Were factories that made sheet metal and so on, armament factories? Did they fall under the concept of armaments?\nA.They did, yes.\nDR. BERGOLD:Thank you.\nYour Honors, since I have not been able to get in writing my request to hear Hippke, and that question has not been clarified heretofore, perhaps I can say something about that. I shall call Hippke after the cross-examination of the present witness. I assume that the approval of Hippke as a witness also includes the fact that I may call him here and put him on the stand?\nMR. DENNEY:If Your Honors please, I have nothing to do with whom he calls. He may call anyone he desires.\nTHE PRESIDENT:He is giving you notice that the next witness will be Dr. Hippke.\nMR. DENNEY:I assume we are back to the 24 hour question. What he wants me to do is to waive it. I wish he would ask me.\nTHE PRESIDENT:No.\nDR. BERGOLD:I could not tell you about Hippke 24 hours ahead of time because I did not know the rule that he would not be available to us for eight days also applied to the fact he could not be called as a witness. Now we have a clear explanation of that.\nTHE PRESIDENT:It is all right. Everybody understands, including Mr. Denney, that Hippke will be the next witness.\nThe Court will adjourn until tomorrow morning.\n(The Tribunal adjourned until 7 February 1947 at 0930 hours.)", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 925, "page_number": "753", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America, against Erhard Milch, defendant, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 7 February, 1947, 0930-1700, Justice Toms, presiding.\nTHE MARSHAL:All persons, please find your seats. The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal Number II. Military Tribunal Number II is now in session. God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal. There will be order in the Court.\nMR. DENNEY:I believe the Colonel has just gone out to get the witness.\n(RESUMED)\nFRITZ SCHMELTER\nBY MR. DENNEY:\nQ.Witness, you're reminded that you're still under oath.\nA.What's that?\nQ.You are reminded that you are still under oath.\nA.Yes.\nQ.Do you recall being interrogated several times?\nA.Yes.\nQ.Here, in Nurnberg?\nA.Yes.\nQ.November and December 1946 and again in January of this year?\nA.Yes.\nQ.In one of these interrogations, on 30 December 1946, you were asked what the Jaegerstab did to bring workers from Hungary into Germany; do you recall that?\nA.Yes.\nQ.And do you recall that you made reference to certain trips of the Jaegerstab to Hungary?\nA.Yes.\nQ.You made this statement: \"The Jaegerstab, during its existence, made at least a total of 10 to 12 trips\"?\nA.Yes.-\nQ.Just answer the questions, witness. I have your answer. If the Jaegerstab, during its existence, made at least 10 to 12 trips -- that is the statement you made during your interrogation?", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "A.", "Q.", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 926, "page_number": "754", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "A.Yes. But not to Hungary, if I may remark.\nQ.All right. You were asked this question: \"Who was in charge of these trips?\" And you answer was: \"So far as I remember, it was Milch. Milch participated in most trips of the Jaegerstab.\"\nA.In most of them; yes.\nQ. in the same interrogation on 30 December, the record indicates that you made this statement: \"I know about 100,000 workers from Hungary; however, these were Jews who were allocated to construction. I know nothing about 8,000 workers who evidently were skilled workers, intended for the fighter production program.\"\nA.Yes.\nQ.You were then asked: \"Is it known to you that these 100,000 Jews were used by Todt in the interests of the Jaegerstab?\" and you made the following answer: \"Yes, that is known to me.\"\nA.Yes.\nQ.You were interrogated on 24 January and asked this question: \"Do you know whether the Luftwaffe, in the Luftwaffe industry, used concentration camp prisoners, not in the building program, but for production.\" and your answer was: \"I don't know. I don't think so, except for women. The SS once offered us a lot of women. The difficulty was that, at first, at least 1,000 and later 500 were to be employed. Various firms got women after that, and I think that Heinkel, in Oranienburg, used concentration camp prisoners, not only women, but all the inmates.\"\nA.Yes.\nQ.The answer was yes, if Your Honor please. And Heinkel was an airplane factory, was it not, producing the Hienkel plane?\nA.Yes.\nQ.On November 15, of last year, you were asked if you knew that Himmler used concentration camp inmates for the underground buildings of the fighter staff, and your answer: \"Yes; you do mean the finished buildings, do you not? And then you were asked: \"The underground ones, the completion of the existing caverns or tunnels, or the like, where concentration camp inmates were employed?\"", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 927, "page_number": "755", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "and your answer, \"Yes.\"\nA.Yes.\nQ.And you were also asked: \"Were these construcions built in the interest of the Luftwaffe?\" Your answer: \"These new constructions; yes.\"\nA.Yes.\nQ.The next question: \"Exclusively in the interest of the Luftwaffe. And did the orders for the new constructions come from the fighter staff?\" Answer: \"Whether other constructions were also built there; probably yes.\" Question: \"I am only interested in the Luftwaffe?\" Answer: \"Also for the Luftwaffe. I do not know whether for others. I would not like to pin myself down.\"\nA.Yes.\nQ.Later you were asked: \"Do you know that prisoners of war were at all employed in the air rearmament?\" and you stated \"Yes; I should like to say, the rearmament plans. The air rearmament also employed prisoners of war in its plans.\"\nA.Yes.\nQ.In the same interrogation of 15th of November, you made this statement: \"Field Marshal Milch, who signed himself responsible for air armament, recruited his labor independently to a certain extent.\"\nA.I'm afraid I didn't quite understand that.\nQ.In the same interrogation of 15 November 1946, you made this statement: \"Field Marshal Milch, who signed himself responsible for air armament, recruited his labor independently to a certain extent.\"\nA.I no longer recall making that statement. Perhaps - could I see the context? I don't know what the word \"independently\" is supposed to mean there.\nQ.Just answer the questions, witness. In reply to a question: \"What was Field Marshal Milch's position in the Jaegerstab?\" you stated, \"There were two chairmen in the Jaegerstab, Speer and Milch. In the first session, or rather in most of the sessions, Milch participated personally; Speer did not. Speer was present only in exceptional cases. In his place, Sauer, who was at the same time manager, initiated the contact with the rest of the armament industry. Milch was Chief of the Jaegerstab, besides Speer.\"\nA.Yes.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 928, "page_number": "756", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "QIn the same interrogation of 15 November you made the following statement: \"assignment of labor was involved in every question including every question of production.\"\nAYes.\nQOn the 26th of November you made the following statement when you were interrogated: \"mobilization of manpower as a matter which is closely connected with production was very much discussed. Everybody had a word to say, had a request for something and they suggested or said I could do better, etc.\"\nAYes.\nQDo you recall being present at the 53rd and 54th meetings of the Central Planning Board? The 54th meeting was held on March 1, 1944.\nAI was present at two or three meetings. I do not, however, know whether I was present on the one on the first of March.\nQThe meeting at which labor was discussed.\nAYes, I assume that I was there, yes, but I cannot say for certain.\nQThese two meetings were presided over by Field Marshal Milch.\nAAs much as I remember, yes, that's true.\nQDo you recall Sauckel being at these meetings?\nAI remember one meeting exactly at which Sauckel was present, one exactly - but not more than one.\nMR. DENNEY:Dr. Bergold, do you have the German copy of NOKW198 which is the chart bearing the labor statistics for the first quarter of 1944? (to page) will you get it and give it to the witness, please? (page secures copy of document) Thank you. If your Honor please, I think this -- I don't seem to have the document book here but I think it appears in Document Book 2-A and it's the insert -it's the chart on labor to which we later added. I don't think your Honors will need it if you don't have it. (to witness) Have you ever seen this chart?\nANo.\nQYou never saw it?", "speakers": [ "A", "MR. DENNEY", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 929, "page_number": "757", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "AThese are not work statistics.\nQGive it back. The witness hasn't seen the chart. I can't examine him. Witness were you a member of the Nazi party?\nAYes, I was; since 1932.\nQ 1932. Did you hold an office in the SS?\nANot in the party, in the SS I had a rank because of my official position, Obersturmbannfuehrer, but exercised no function and no active orders.\nQWhen were you appointed Obersturmbannfuehrer in the SS?\nA 1941.\nQ 1941. If your Honor please, I have no further questions.\nRE-DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. BERGOLD:\nQWitness, on the trip to Hungary were you present when the committee went to Hungary?\nANo, I travelled only as far as Prague and returned.\nQDo you know the purpose of this trip to Hungary?\nANot precisely. I know that there was a question of production to take place in Hungary but precise information I do not have.\nQDo you know that there was a definite contract with the Hungarian Government?\nAI heard about that subsequently.\nQDid you then hear that this trip had the purpose of bringing Hungarian Jews to Germany?\nANo.\nQThank you. The prosecutor spoke to you of 100,000 Jews. Did you know that these were to be used by Mr. Dorsch?\nAYes.\nQAnd mainly, as far as the tasks that he had, mainly to bombproof factories?\nAYes.\nQDo you know whether the Fighter Staff ordered these 100,000 Jews or whether somebody else did?", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 930, "page_number": "758", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "AThe employment of these 100,000 Jews in this construction organization took place on Hitler's orders. I, myself, was not present at this discussion. Dorsch, however, was present and told me that Hitler had ordered -- had said Himmler has 100,000 Hungarian Jews for bomb-proof factories and is to make them available.\nQDo you know whether and in what number and when these Jews arrived to carry out this construction work?\nAI do not know precisely the dates. It was in the summer of 1944. Nor do I know whether all of them arrived. Once I concerned myself with the question regarding the guarding of these people. At that time the SS did not have enough guard personnel and Hitler ordered Keitel to provide 10,000 soldiers which were to be withdrawn from the Eastern Front and to make them available to the SS so that they, the SS, would have the necessary guard personnel. Thereafter, I heard nothing further about the matter and assumed that the Jews for the most part were employed. I deduced this from the fact that I otherwise should have heard of it again probably.\nQI discussed just yesterday with you whether these buildings were ordered by the Fighter Staff. I do not need to return to that question. Were these constructions used exclusively by the Fighter Staff or for other advantages, such as armored cars?\nAOriginally they were exclusively planned for fighter construction but I do recall that as time went on there were also discussions of using them for other manufacture, for instance, tanks, and this construction should take place in these buildings. Since, however, I had nothing to do with this professionally, I can only report on this from hearsay. In other words, I know nothing precisely.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 931, "page_number": "759", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "QThe prosecutor quoted to you a statement of yours from an interrogation; I shall ask you now did you make the statement in the interrogation that Milch was responsible for air armament to sort out workers individually?\nAI don't know how I should understand word 'sort out'; if you mean that he went to the foreign countries and searched for them personally, then of course as I stated in the interrogation, that is wrong. I did state in that interrogation that during my activity in the Fighter Staff on March 1944 no individual actions in foreign countries were carried out by Milch or the Fighter Staff. The manpower was provided by Sauckel exclusively, or to the extent that they were prisoners by the SS, or prisoners of war were provided by the Wehrmacht.\nQAnd then they were transferred, as you said yesterday, to other sectors?\nAYes.\nQYou also said then in this interrogation that in most of the meetings Milch was present.\nAAt the beginning, I said.\nDR. BERGOLD:I have no further questions.\nMR. DENNEY:I have no questions.\nBY THE PRESIDENT:The Marshal may remove this witness.\nDR. BERGOLD:Permit me to call immediately the witness ERIC HIPPKE, Dr. Hippke.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The Marshal will bring into the Court room Eric Hippke.\n(Witness Erick Hippke brought into Court room)\nWill you raise your right hand please, and repeat after me:\nI swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.\nThe witness may be seated.\nDIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. BERGOLD:", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "MR. DENNEY", "Q", "BY THE PRESIDENT", "A" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 932, "page_number": "760", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "QWitness, will you please tell the Tribunal your Christian and surname?\nAMy name is Hippke; my first name Eric.\nQWhen were you born?\nAOn the 17th of March 1888.\nQWhat was your last position in the German State?\nAI was Medical Inspector of the Luftwaffe until 31 December 1943.\nQWitness, do you know the defendant, Milch?\nAYes, I know the defendant Milch.\nQCan you identify him here in the court room? Point him out?\nAHe is over there.\nDR. BERGOLD:I ask that the minutes show that the witness has identified the defendant.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The record will indicate that the witness has identified the defendant.\nQWitness, how long have you known Milch?\nASince my entrance into the Luftwaffe on 1April 1935.\nQIn what capacity did you have business or dealings with Milch there?\nAHe was the States Secretary forAviation, and as that the chief in the aviation ministry to which I belonged.\nQWhen did you become Inspector General of the Medical Inspection?\nAI was not Inspector General. I was simply inspector. This designation of office was introduced later, approximately '36 or 1937. From that time on I was the Inspector of the Medical Service of the Luftwaffe until I left.\nQWere you immediately subordinated to Milch in this capacity?\nAI was subordinated directly to him at the beginning, later I was subordinated to him via the Chiefs of the Luftwehr.", "speakers": [ "A", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 933, "page_number": "761", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "Q.In other words, you were separated in a certain degree from Milch.\nA.Yes. My immediate superior in this later period was, as a basic principle, Chief of the Anti-aircraft.\nQ.When did that occur, approximately?\nA. 1940 or 1941. I cannot precisely recall.\nQ.Who at that time was Chief of the Air Defense?\nA.At first General Ruedel; later General Foerster, and he was chief until I resigned from office.\nQ.Do you know from approximately what date Foerster was Chief of Air Defence(of the Luftwehr?)\nA.I believe since the year 1942, but I do not know, precisely.\nQ.Witness, what office or agency of the army was under your command?\nA.You mean of the Luftwaffe?\nQ.Right?\nA.If I may limit my answer here to the experimental activities of the Luftwaffe because that is apparently the only matter that we are concerned with here.\nQ.First of all I want to lay down the general picture.\nA.I went to the Luftwaffe as inspector to take care of medical activities in the Luftwaffe, to see that they were carried out in an orderly fashion according to orders given by me; that was my task, particularly on the front and to keep things orderly and supervise these matters.\nQ.Was the medical personnel subordinated to you in personnel matters?\nA.Only technically.\nQ.Who was in charge of medical inspectors in personnel matters?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 934, "page_number": "", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "A.The respective military branches; the Luftwaffe, the medical personnel in a gau were subordinated to the Luftgau. I myself was in charge directly of only one single organization, that was the medical academy of the Luftwaffe, which was purely a training school.\n761a which trained medical cadets of the Luftwaffe.", "speakers": [ "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 935, "page_number": "", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "Q.Is it correct to say that the chief of the Luftwaffe had the medical personnel under him?\nA.I shall repeat my answer. He had charge of them insofar as all changes all orders--\nQ.You have to speak slower witness. As the interpreters can not follow otherwise.\nA.The director of personnel-the direction of personnel was taken care of by a section of the personnel office, not by me. There was a special department for air decorations, promotions and transfers of all personnel, for all medical officers. I simply took care of these things in an auxiliary capacity. I was head officially, occasionally was called upon to give an opinion so that personnel in my office were exempted from this general order. To this personnel office I was occasionally called to assist and there was in audition a medical officer from the personnel office who was subordinated to the personnel office, but not subordinated to me.\nQ.Do you know whether this personnel office was subordinated to Milch in his capacity as Inspector?\nA.No, so far as I am informed of the organization, that was not subordinated to him. In the same way the general staff was not subordinated to him but was excluded from his sphere of confidence.\nQ.I come now to the research institutes. What reasearch institutes were subordinated to you?\nA.Immediately subordinated to me were the Luftwaffe Medical Institute of the Reich Air Ministry; that was its official name. This was a central institute for Aviation Medical Research; without actually having the leadership, I was the head of that. It was the center of the Aviation Research. 762 Professor Strughold was the leader of it and it was located in Berlin.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 936, "page_number": "763", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "May I conclude?\nThen, scattered throughout Germany there were a number of other smaller research places of which I would like to name the following: In Hamburg an institute under Schwarz; and in Munich there was an institute under Professor Weltz and an institute in Gueterborg under Doctor v. Dehringshofen and later under professor Knote; and at Freiburg under Professor Buechner. The last named was concerned with avaiation pathology exclusively. In other words it was not quite like the other institutes. These were subordinated to their individual Luftgau but they were indirectly subordinate also to me, so that the scientific leadership of the institutes, which belonged to the Luftwaffe, was united in my hands, and I also was responsible for them. Aside from these institutes which I have named, there were a number of other institutes that did not belong within my immediate sphere of command; amongst these was one research institute that fell within the realm of those that belonged especially to the Luftwaffe; namely, a research institute in the testing groung Rechlin which belonged to the Luftwaffe. The leader of the medical department there was one Dr. Benzinger, a in other words a ministerial official. I was subordinated to the leader of his institute and he in turn was subordinate to the office of technical Research of the Luftwaffe. He was not subordinate to me. In my whole period of activity I was never actually in Rechlin.\nAnother institute of research was the Luftwaffe Experimental station in the German Technical Institute for Avaition in Berlin Adlerhof, under the leadership of Dr. Ruff, who was also independent apart from his subordination to the institute for aviation.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 937, "page_number": "", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "I can not testify about these since they were outside my sphere of activities. It was Dr. Ruff, the leader of this Luftwaffe Research Station, who was in charge, at the head of it, and I was responsible to him.\nIn the course of my period of office I visited the institute a few times on the request of Dr. Ruff, but always I previously went to the leader of the DVL and asked for permission to visit the institute, which was within his sphere of command, as I did not even have the right to inspect the institute.\n763a", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 938, "page_number": "764", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "Q.Who was the leader of the DVL at the time?\nA.Mr. Boeck at that time, but I would not like to say that for sure.\nQ.I come now to the experimental station at Rechlin, the testing ground. Did it extend under the so-called leadership of research or - who was it subordinate to this institute?\nA.Dr. Benzinger told me again and again that he was subordinate to General Udet, that General Udet had created a ministry in that particular office for him so that he could carry out management there.\nQ.In what way were the institutes under the Luftwaffe subordinate to you, so that they were directly subordinate to you?\nA.They were subordinate to me insofar as the Luftwaffe Gau doctor was subordinate to me. In addition, there were the air field forces which were interpolated but in this experimental work they did not belong to me because they did not appear so often in this work. I was in the Air Ministry, but I had experts on Medical questions in a separate department.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 939, "page_number": "765", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "The leader of this department was Prof. Anthony at that time. He had an assistant later; and this assistant was Dr. Becker-Fryseng, and he was particularly recommended to me as an expert and a desirable person by the Aviation Medical Institute I. E. Prof. Struckhold.\nA.He was an assistant and thereafter subordinate to Professor Anthony. Professor Anthony in turn was subordinate to his department and he in turn was subordinate to me. This was during the time, I believe, of General Martius but he very often had the opportunity to report directly to me on the research questions.\nQ.What was your official connection with General Oberstandartzt Handloser of the Medical Department of the Wehrmacht?\nA.When the Medical Department of the Wehrmacht was created, it was indevered to combine all questions that concerned any of the three branches of the Army and he was my superior as Medical General, Handloser who previously had been on an equal basis with me as medical inspector for the Army when he also took on this new task now became my superior.\nQ.Well, could he give you orders? What do you mean by the word superior?\nA.Yes, he could he give me orders and establish policies.\nQ.When was this roughly?\nA.That was in 1942, I believe. At the latest in 1945. The reorganization already existed when I came in.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 940, "page_number": "", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "Q.Then there were other experts; there were so-called advisory expert physicians, and what was their relationship to the whole?\nA.There wore a number of advisory physicians, that I, following the example of the Army had already appointed for the Luftwaffe; they were subordinate to me immediately when I was there, in other words, they were not responsible to other departments or intermediate offices 765a In this field of airforce medicine I had no special consultant but used the chiefs of the Luftwaffe Medical Research Institute Berlin professor Strughold also for these purposes of professional orientation.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 941, "page_number": "766", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "Among the men to be mentioned here was Prof. Buechner, who was the leader of the Pathological Institute in Freiburg and I had put up the Research Station with him for Luftwaffe pathology. I think I also should mention Prof. Rein in Goettingen, who was advisor in Physiology to me and in whose institute work on many aviation medical questions was done. This institute was as a matter of form attached to the Strughold Institute in Berlin. Personally Rein was immediately subordinated to me as advisor in Physiology.\nQ.Witness, do you know that at the time of Udet the \"C\" office of Udet within the framework of the Generalluftzeugmeister, head charge of Rechlin via Mr. Baeunke.\nA.Yes, that I knew at the time, much of the organization was changed later, so that I am not informed and I can no longer remember what the latest relations were. Many changes did not come to our official attention. I know the the development at this time were confused and that re-organizations were very frequent.\nQ.But you know that Baeumker was in the \"C\" office of the Air Ministry at the time of Udet?\nA.Yes, he was in the Ministry and also encountered difficulties because Baeumker also wanted to combine the Luftwaffe Medical Research with his other technical research, while I endeavered to keep the medical question under my control, no definite clarification of this matter ever took place during my time, because despite all my efforts it couldn't be carried out that all medical questions went through me. Instead the tendencies of the individual groups to independent were strong enough that this desire of mine could not be realized in practice.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 942, "page_number": "", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "766a", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 943, "page_number": "767", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "Q.Mr. Witness, do you know that this \"C\" office was then reorganized when Milch took over the Office of General Luftzaugmeister?\nA.I do know that there was a reorganization at that time. What sort of reorganization there was, I cannot say in detail.\nQ.Do you know that Baeamker resigned from this \"C\" Office and took another Office?\nA.I know that he later resigned and went to Munich.\nQ.What did he do in Munich? Did he have his own institute there or construct one, or what did he do?\nA.I had the impression that in Munich he wanted to create a new research organization. I never heard that he was chief of an institute.\nQ.Here is a plan that Prof. Dr. Oskar Schroeder drew up, and on the wall you see a summary of it. We have just talked in retail about matters of organization, can you ascertain that these two charts, of which you have the original in your hand and of which there is a short version on the wall, are correct?\nA.This chart that I have, I can only see the chart in my hand because I am short sighted and I cannot see the one on the wall at all without my glasses which have been taken from me. In this chart there are a number of small errors. They concern, for example, the subordination of the advisory physicians who, according to the chart, seem to be subordinated to each other, whereas actually they were immediately subordinate to me.\nQ.Are the institutes shown in the right order of authority?\nA.The institutes of the Luftwaffe are also not arranged here correctly, because as I have already mentioned the subordination concerned only the Stuckhold Research Institute.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 944, "page_number": "", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "Q.Is Rechlin correctly placed on the chart?\nA.It says here only technical subordination. That is already saying too much, because the subordination of the institute was not under me in a technical respect either.\nQ.The DVL, is that placed correctly?\nA.To the extent that according to the lines on this chart there was a technical subordination, to that extent which is wrong. But this concept of technical subordination is not entirely correct. The situation was this, the 767a Luftwaffe institutions, with the exception of the Buechner Institute, which was headed by Benzinger, were under my complete technical charge.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 945, "page_number": "768", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "On the other hand, the other institutes, Rechlin and the medical department in Adlershof, only received directives or policies from me, and then if they received them, of course, had to carry them out. But they were in no other respect subordinate to me above all not under my authority for inspection, which I would imply by technical subordination.\nQ.You could not check and examine if I understood you correctly, and only gave orders for various research?\nA.Not only orders for research. I could also establish individual policies. If I knew that there was a particular pressing question concerning centrifugal force that had to be solved, or questions of cold or high altitude or so, I had the right if I knew that this was a pressing question, to tell them to make this the center of research, and they, in turn, had to do this. As far as I gave them orders to carry out research which did not happen with the institutes, in view of the enormous amount of other work in that field, then as I say I gave orders and they were obliged to work on this research that I had ordered, and to send the report to my office telling the results of their experiment so that I could then fulfill my real task, namely to examine the results of this research and to find out what could be used for the fliers in actual practice.\nQ.I understand you to say ---\nA.Let me supplement my remarks. Besides the institutions on this chart here, there were also a number of smaller research --- civilian researchers. There were a lot of low pressure chambers mass produced . These were used in the individual universities, mostly for research on pilots and their endurance.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 946, "page_number": "", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "This was an important chapter. In addition, these men as physicians and researchers often carried on independent research. For example, in the Charite in Berlin there was such a low pressure chamber. I remember also that at Bonn there was a rather large chamber always at work. Within the framework of the university, and these problems were worked on there. I gave research orders, and the exports there were obliged to send a report to my office LIM 14. The Inspections were numbered. Mine was number 14. They had to report to me as I said. My work was ascertaining 768a what could be used from the results of this research for the protection of fliers.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 947, "page_number": "769", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "Q.Thank you. that suffices. Then if I understand you correctly you said that you merely gave general directives and policies to the DVL?\nA.This is true, yes.\nQ.Did you determine then what sort of work the DVL was to do, or was it in that regard independent?\nA.It was independent because there was in the DVL, for instance, a department within the actual framework of the DVL which was a technical institute, and it gave its technical problems to its own physicians. And I know, for instance that on the question of shock, Dr. Ruff did a lot of work since this question was of great importance in the development in airplane construction, particularly altitude questions. On the part of the Avaiation Ministry there was a low pressure chamber, a mobile chamber given in charge of Dr. Ruff. He, in fact, developed it technically\nQ.Witness, I come now to the actual events. When did you first find out that Rascher wanted to carry out high altitude experiments?\nA.Let me go into this some lengths if I have the. time.\nQ.Please do so.\nA.At that time, high altitude experiments, that is the question to what height man could climb and still function, were particularly important and particularly pressing for us for the development of airplanes and the development of air combat indicated or brought it about that it was practically of ever increasing importance to be able to climb higher and higher. Consequently in this whole period of development, 1940 to 1941 the problem of altitude was always in the foreground whereas previously we had concerned ourselves with many other questions.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 948, "page_number": "", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "We knew now not only that at an altitude of 7,000 to 8,000 meters and oxygen breathing set had to be carrier. We also knew now that an altitude of 12,000 meters oxygen was not sufficient, which of coarse, will be strange to any lay observer. However, the air pressure, and I emphasize air pressure, was so slight at this height that the oxygen apparatus is no longer effective. The oxygen was dispersed too rapidly.\n769a also because all the mixture of water vapor in the lung and of oxygen contents----", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 949, "page_number": "770", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "Q.These are very technical matters, and you must speak slowly?\nA.The relation between water vapor in the lung and oxygen became quite different at these altitudes. It became clear that from 12,000 meters on the air pressure had to be increased so that the oxygen apparatus could still work. This seemed to set a limit at which the pilots and crews could breath. The one way would have been to give them an air-tight suit, but that didn't interest us very greatly. The main question was, the aircraft body itself would have to be made airtight and that was the so-called cabin plane that had to be used, in which the crew was in a position to create the necessary air pressure which was necessary or was sufficient for breathing perhaps with the assistance with the oxygen apparatus. Then there was the further question of what might happen at these deadly altitudes if it should be punctured, either by enemy action or because of the enormous cold up there. Could the crew stand the sudden difference in pressure from a reasonable air pressure, to this sudden lethal reduction in pressure, or would the crew die of this immediately? We as physicians embraced the point of view that unless we knew the answer to this, we were not morally able to send crews to these heights. We wanted some assurance to anticipate the probable future of the cabin plane. The first question was, can the human being stand such a sudden reduction of pressure at all, or does he die of it? The second question was, how much time is there in which he can be saved? In bailing out at this level what happens when he gets into a zone lower down where his oxygen apparatus, which is taken with him, begins to work, that is to say; an altitude of 12,000 meters, or where he reaches an altitude of which he can live without oxygen apparatus, in other words, the height of about 7,000 to 8,000 meters.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 950, "page_number": "", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "It was in this direction and precisely by Dr. Ruff in Adlershof, in order to clarify such question that specially constructed low pressure chambers were set up, although only a few experiments, I should say \"spot tests\" were carried out from which it could be seen that human beings actually could withstand such enormous and sudden drops in pressure.\n770a", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 951, "page_number": "771", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "Q.May I ask a question? On whom were these experiments made?\nThese were all experiments on themselves that Dr. Ruff and his assistants, Dr. Romberg, carried out on themselves, I believe also using his own working personnel there, because there were always other doctors or physicians who took part in these experiments. These experiments were, however, insufficient to determine fundamentally which height was the safety limit, for the cabin plane. And we were confronted with the decision, what group of experimental persons could now be used.", "speakers": [ "Q." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 952, "page_number": "772", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "It was always my point of view that such experiments should be carried out on Doctors themselves. We had a number of such very dangerous partly even dangerous to life experiments which were made on our researchers. They included altitude experiments and also experiments on centrifugal force . Doctors, through self experimentation have been working on questions of pressure as in the Avaiation Medical Institute, Professor Strughold.\nI saw only one difficulty confronting us: The circle of Doctors working in avaiation medicine was so small, that each was heavily burdened with his own special task, so that we had to enlarge our circle in other ways. Something of a technical nature had to be added. The researchers, because of the many experiments carried out upon themselves, had developed such a tolerance for altitude, and that is possible and even at a high degree, that the results of the tests carried out upon themselves, were too favorable. They could not be applied to general conditions.\nA.Pilots, being confronted, for the first time, with lack of oxygen, would find that previous statistics would not apply to him. The result of tests on researchers gave a false and too favorable picture.\nThis was the situation in which we found ourselves, and about which every one who was definitely concerned knew about. This was the situation when Dr. Rauscher, in May, 1941, came to me. It was a question of a doctor who previously belonged to the SS and who had now become a reserve medical inspector of the Luftwaffe. As such, he became involved in this entire problem of high-altitude experimentation.\nHe proposed to me in a discussion that he brought about, and I did not even know him previously, that for this purpose penal prisoners should be used, that is those who had already been condemned to death, in other words, those who were to die anyway.", "speakers": [ "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 953, "page_number": "", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "Q.Witness, one question. Should these men volunteer?\nA.I believe I said that already, sir. It was always to be a volunteer. There were only volunteers.\nQ.Which prospects were given them in the event that they did volunteer?\nA.I discussed that later with Rauscher, but even here, his point of view was predominant, that they should be pardoned if they volunteered. That 772a was promised to them in the very beginning.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 954, "page_number": "773", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "In this way they had a chance through these experiments to save their lives which otherwise they could not do. I asked him how he would be able to obtain such persons for experimentation. and he explained himself by saying that he had connections with the SS who had charge of such penal prisoners. There were such penal prisoners in Dachau, and he would be in a position to obtain them for these purposes. I, myself, because of my inner personal feelings on the matter, was very much against these experiments, even in the event that I should say yes it would be against my principle namely that such experiments should in the first place always be taken upon them themselves by doctors.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The court will recess for a few minutes.\nTHE MARSHALL:The Military Tribunal will recess for fifteen minutes.\n(Thereupon a recess was taken)", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHALL", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 955, "page_number": "774", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "THE MARSHAL:All persons in court please find your seats. The Tribunal No. 2 is again in session.\nBY DR. BERGOLD:\nQWitness, you referred to your talk with Rascher. Did Rascher on this occasion tell you what the purpose was in this work or task?\nAYes, on occasion of that meeting in this talk I did not mention this before. I must now tell you this. Maybe I should explain in the question I think what he tells me. He wanted to become a university lecturer, and later become a permanent member of the university, and it was important for that purpose for him to work on new scientific subjects which he could show to us finally, and for that reason wanted to work in that particular field.\nQWitness, what effect did your talk have with him?\nAFrom my attitude, and as to the whole complex of the question, I was against experiments being carried out on human beings, such experiments, because such experiments were never carried out by the Luftwaffe of new experiments before, and I always referred to the particular experiments that it was not the ethics of the German doctors, if necessary, particularly, could not experiment only on themselves. In order to point that out, and emphasize this point of view, I myself when I joined the Luftwaffe after being in the army, I myself experimented on myself, both in the low pressure chambers and exposed myself to high altitudes; several times I was myself thrown out of the Centrifugal up to the danger point; and I pointed out of other tests of aviation which could be carried out in an airplane on myself which I referred to the pilot as too dangerous. Also the fact that I was nearly fifty years of age when I learned, how to fly, and in the expedition flying I tested the particular dangerous tests that confront the pilot, and took over the particular assignment of unpleasant tests for the pilot.\nMR. DENNEY:Is the witness telling his personal experience now, or relating what Dr. Rascher said?\nDR. BERGOLD:These are experiments which the witness made on himself.\nTHE PRESIDENT:One more question.", "speakers": [ "A", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "MR. DENNEY", "Q", "THE MARSHAL" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 956, "page_number": "775", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "Q.Will the witness tell the Tribunal again when he had first talked to Dr. Rascher about these experiments?\nBY DR. BERGOLD:\nQ.Witness, will you tell the Court once again when did you have your first talk with Rascher?\nA.With Rascher? When this conversation took place was in May 1941. at that time though nothing final had been decided, and I made my own point of view against such experiments quite clear to Dr. Rascher, it was that I was apposed to human experiments. I told Rascher of the basic conditions of all experiments which are made by the doctors on themselves; aside from that we always mentioned that they were of prisoners under sentence of death, and I used the expression \"murder\" to make my attitude quite clear. These persons had to report voluntarily for these experiments, and had to be told that the death sentence was to be comuted into some more lenient punishment, or acquittel. The final decision on these questions remained open at that time, because I was against such experiments even under these limitations. I have so much in opposition that I could not make up my mind to say yes.\nW.Witness, did you report to your superior officer Ruedel, or Herr Milch, of this conversation with Rascher?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "W." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 957, "page_number": "776", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "A.No, not at that time, but only a little later, A little later we discussed this question of human experiments once more without Racher in Munich, on the occasion of a meeting in the summer of 1941 with Professor Weltz, his collaborator Kottenhof, and myself. This question was discussed. This was a meeting of many people in the evening in a restaurant where we had a special table to ourselves and where this very worrying question was discussed. The question was opened by Dr. Kottenhof who reported that Dr. Rascher had contacted him and proposed to him to take part in such work. Kottenhof took the view that such experiments with about the limitations which I mentioned before could be answered for all the more so, as people sentenced to death--murderes--were given a chance to save their lives; all the more so, as the danger of these experiments did not appear to be considerable. Professor Weltz took the view that such experiments could be justified for the reason because in the international literature of the great countries, such experiments were frequently described and were declared to be admissible everywhere. He named here, as I recall, the United States of America.\nQ.May it please the court, I would ask to be allowed to read a brief document at this point from the Document Book of the Prosecution 5-B. This is Exhibit No. 122, NOKW-419 in the last volume submitted by the Prosecution. NOKW-419. It is the interrogation of Weltz of 8 November 1946.\nMR. DENNEY:Page 188 of Prosecution Document Book 5-B, if your Honor Please in English.\nDR. BERGOLD:\nI will start on page 1.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 958, "page_number": "", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "\"Question: Did you think about the conversation with Hippke?\n\"Answer: Yes.\n\"Question: When did it take place?\n\"Answer: In the summer of 1941.\n\"Question: 1941?\n\"Answer: Yes, because we were then in the period of 1941-'42, the second half.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Dr. Bergold, we don't have this page 188, Exhibit 122.\nMR. DENNEY:Again, Your Honors, we only used a portion of the exhibit.\n776a I believe Dr. Bergold is familiar with the rule.", "speakers": [ "MR. DENNEY", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 959, "page_number": "777", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "We gave him the entire affidavit and he is now reading from a part which doesn't appear in the Document Book, and I assume that the Court will make the same ruling that Dr. Bergold can furnish the English translation to the Court and to the Prosecution Staff.\nDR. BERGOLD:Let me do so, Your Honor.\n\"Answer: Yes, we were then in the period of 1941-'42, the second half. This was a sociable, beer-drinking evening in the Preysing Palace, and on that occasion, Kottenhof said that permission could be expected for Rascher. I believe, although I am not quite certain, whether at that time I did or did not know Rascher and he was not then ordered to serve in my office. I could not say that for certain. There was a discussion between Kottenhof and Hippke.\"\nMR. DANNY:If Your Honor please, I object to the reading of this document here. I don't know what its purpose is. Either he is trying to refresh the witness' recollection or he is trying to show something that is contrary to what the witness is stating. He is calling the witness; he is vouching for his credibility; and I submit that he can't impeach him at this time. There is nothing to indicate that the witness is hostile, and what purpose is served by reading an affidavit of Weltz with reference to a meeting by which the witness obviously has a clear recollection, I can't see.\nDR. BERGOLD:Your Honors, I am doing this because, as in the case of the International Military Tribunal, solicitors were allowed to support what the witness said by a document to show that he is correct. This is not supposed to be a reproach. I have no further questions to the witness. I only want to show, by reading this document, what the witness said is perfectly true. That was allowed in the first case. Should the Court decide to give up the rule, I would have to read this document some other time. I leave that to the Court's judgment.\nTHE PRESIDENT:I think the confusion arises from the order with which this proof is submitted. It is not intended either to impeach this witness nor to refresh his recollection, but as an independent offer of proof.\nMR. DENNY:If Your Honor please, not having the document, I didn't know what he was going into, and I would suggest if Dr. Bergold has affidavits or other things that he wants to bring forward to substantiate the witness' proof or testimony, that he offered them at the conclusion of a session rather than interrupting the witness' testimony to say, \"I will now show that by an affidavit of someone else, that what this witness said is just true.\"", "speakers": [ "MR. DANNY", "MR. DENNY", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 960, "page_number": "778", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "All the affidavit says is that someone else says what he says.\nTHE PRESIDENT:I think, as I said, that the confusion arises from the fact that this is introduced at this time. I would suggest, Dr. Bergold, that you withhold the offer of this affidavit until the cross examination of this witness is concluded.\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes, Your Honor.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:Witness, I should like to ask you a question. Your last statement just before Dr. Bergold began to read a document in which, I assumed, would have something to do with that statement, was to the effect that in the United States experiments of a similar nature were performed. Is that correct?\nTHE WITNESS:No.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:Well, what did you say?\nTHE WITNESS:I don't know what type of experiments these were. I presume, however, high altitude experiments. I was informed that high altitude experiments were organized in the United States because when I was in the States myself in 1939, in Boston, I inspected the low-pressure chamber and it was reported to me that on these very questions of developing cabins, a lot of work was being done because that was particularly important to them. Whether the experiments which I mentioned concerned that work in the States, I do not know; but the general principle applied that in such experiments which are put on a bigger basis, only prisoners were used.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:You didn't intend to convey the impression that you had heard that in the United States the high altitude experiments were conducted in a way to jeopardize human life?", "speakers": [ "THE WITNESS", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "JUDGE MUSMANNO" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 961, "page_number": "779", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "AThe danger in this experiment I always considered to be small because, despite such experiments, we never had one case of death. The only case of death which happened in the Luftwaffe Medical Service was on a completely different field. It was one of our research men who had gone with a Himolaya expedition. In the altitude there he was killed by the cold and lack of air, but that was an altitude expedition in the mountains and not in the field of altitude research work within the low pressure chamber.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:There is no need to prolong this. You merely wanted to say that in the United States scientific experiments were conducted in this field, not in any way jeopardizing human life; is that correct?\nAWhether and to what extent such experiments were made in the United States I do not know. All I know is that human experiments were made in the United States which might have been dangerous and for which certain prisoners were used. That is what I meant when I said that these experiments were justified, and Professor Weltz mentioned that on this occasion.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:Where did you see reference to these American experiments?\nAI would ask to see Professor Weltz. He mentioned certain books and even the dates when they appeared.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:Then, of your own personal knowledge, you know nothing about American experiments?\nANo, not from my own personal knowledge.\nDR. BERGOLD:May it please the Court, I shall make this quite clear as to what sort of experiments were made on criminals who had volunteered, what experiments of that sort were made in the United States. For that purpose I shall call Dr. Alexander, the American expert.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:Very well.", "speakers": [ "A", "DR. BERGOLD", "JUDGE MUSMANNO" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 962, "page_number": "", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "BY DR. BERGOLD:\nQAfter this talk in the summer of 1941, what happened?\nAI should add something here.Although I was reluctant, I made up my mind to go ahead with these experiments, with the limitation that have been mentioned, from the point of view that we could save lives which had been sentenced to death. At least it was very probable that we could, because 779A the experiments were not very dangerous anyway.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 963, "page_number": "780", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "In any case, the arguments which Kottenhof put up were more important to me that the arguments which Weltz produced, because, in the last analysis, the responsibility for that decision not to go forward with such experiments -- I had to answer for that decision with my conscience, and literature alone would not have been enough for me.\nAt the time I also said to Professor Weltz that if experiments were made he should supervise them because he as a scientist and as a man guaranteed, as far as I was concerned, that everything would be done to safeguard everything as much as possible. He himself was not strongly inclined toward these experiments, just as I was not.\nQ.Witness, did you say before that Professor Buechner collaborated in this?\nA.I had the idea to take him into the work because I knew that he was very strict morally and as regards humanity. Buechner was a strict Catholic, which again seemed to play a part in this, insofar as precautions were concerned. Weltz was also a strict Catholic, just as I myself am a strict and very active Protestant. This I hoped would mean added precautions in the experiments.\nQ.Witness, did you make any preparations on the question of whether these experiments, apart from danger to life, would entail other dangers to the experimental subjects, such as very intense pain or diseases which would go on after the experiments had been finished?\nA.After we separated from that meeting and when I finished the conversation, I raised this question in regard to certain experiments, and I said at the time, \"Please, children, go carefully.\" Afterwards I thought quite a lot about this. I said to myself that the question of pains during the experiments should not play a very important part because when you alter pressure you lose consciousness in a very few seconds -- in any case within twenty seconds at the latest. Let's strike out the \"at latest\" because I can not commit myself to that precise figure. Therefore, you can not say that it hurts.\nWhen you wake up again, if there is an abnormal condition at all afterwards, there is a state of drunkenness which follows, during which you can not speak of pains, just as you can not when you are drunk from alcohol.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 964, "page_number": "781", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "The person concerned will probably be very confused after the experiments. After the experiments he suffers from loss of memory for the period when he is in the state of drunkenness. Memory will not worry him because of the drunkenness. As far as pain and memory of pain were concerned, I saw nothing to worry about.\nI also thought of the question of whether it would not be possible to take in different groups of persons, but I said to myself that for soldiers, the general principle existed, which at that time was emphasized with great severity, that all soldiers should be used only for their actual military purposes and that they should not be used for any other tasks.\nAs far as other civilians were concerned, such as volunteers, whether they be men or women, I saw the necessity of starting a bigger action, but also from the point of view of secrecy for the results obtained in the experiments and also from the point of view of the special interest that such experiments would raise, I decided that this was undesirable.\nTherefore, I could not make up my mind and preferred the other way, where all these guarantees of safeguards were taken, and I decided to answer for that method.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 965, "page_number": "782", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "QWitness, how did you know that in such experiments there would not be any pains?\nAThat can be seen from the way the experimental subjects behave, when they wake up from unconsciousness, for their behavior is mainly confused and does not give the impression that they are suffering pains. When they make any noises and scream, I may remind you that when you are drunk you might do similar things without the person concerned feeling any pains, but also, the loss of memory does not always apply, but that the experimental subjects who underwent the experiments, took the view that the question of pain is not an important one in this context.\nQYou said this morning that you yourself made experiments on yourself. Did you make any observations in these questions there?\nAThe lesson of the experiment which I had made on myself was a different one, inasmuch as a slowly -- I had a slowly increasing reduction of oxygen on myself -- what is known as a climbing experiment. You go through a phase of lack of oxygen getting stronger and stronger, what you feel, apart from feeling very tired depends entirely upon the individual constitutions, what you feel. You may feel weak. In my case, in these experiments, I hear noises in my ears, which I also feel when I have drunk alcohol, and my muscles tremble, particularly when I write, which is not connected with feeling pain, this shaking of my muscles, he decided that the shaking of muscles means that altitude sickness has set in, but these are minor symptoms. Secondly, they have nothing to do with the experiments of lowering pressure rapidly, as there consciousness is lost suddenly. In my own case, when I took more oxygen, what we call the descent, I never felt any pains; on the contrary when oxygen is being taken in again, immediately from the bottle, my normal faculties were immediately restored to me, so that the shaking of muscles, and such symptoms disappeared immediately, and also the power to see, which before was reduced a little, was restored to me at once.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 966, "page_number": "783", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "QWitness, when you climbed into certain altitudes slowly, you probably put yourself to more pain, although I don't know much about these things, but if you pass out suddenly, is that not always so?\nAIf in such experiments a slow climbing is done, this has its effect on the body much more intensively than when, as far as symptoms of illness are concerned, or not really diseased complaints, than when through a sudden rapid reduction of pressure, you immediately lose consciousness.\nQThank you. Witness, will you describe to us now what you know of the experiments after the conversation in Munich?\nAIn the course of 1941, in the affair of the Dachau experiments, I heard nothing, only in 1942. In 1942 the old precedent has approached me again. In the beginning of 1942, I talked with Dr. Ruff on the conditions under which I would give my permission for such experiments. I talked to him on one occasion, and I know that Dr. Ruff intended to take part in these experiments, whereas, I, in my turn, did not only not have any objection, but what I considered to be the reasonable and understandable, because Dr. Ruff was a scientist, who had the greatest personal experience in rapid reduction of pressure experiments in Germany, and had experimented on his own person in that respect. I can also recall that I myself carried out a rapid reduction of pressure experiment. I looked at such an experiment under his direction, within the frame of the DVL.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 967, "page_number": "784", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "Q.Witness,---\nA.May I just finish my sentence? This experiment had no incidence whether he made the experiment on his own body or Dr. Romberg's, his collaborator, who---I don't know whether he did the experiment himself or Dr. Romberg, but I do know that Dr. Ruff was present himself.\nQ.Witness, was the experimental person a so-called alien person; that is to say, a criminal?\nA.Oh, no. It was either Dr. Ruff or Dr. Romberg, or, perhaps another member of his staff. He had several doctors with him, but in any case, purely from the circle of doctors who carried out experiments on themselves.\nQ.Witness, after your conversation in 1942, what happened then?\nA.In my field of vision, the whole business came again into my field of vision, roughly, on 15 April. I don't know when the experiments were began. I was not informed of this, nor was this necessary, as, in that respect, DVL was quite independent, and did not need to report to me when they began experiments. In the middle of April, however, I was sent a letter by Obergruppenfuehrer Wolf, who was a member of the staff of the SS, in which he asked that the Rascher commend in Dachau should be granted.\nQ.May I interrupt you here? Witness, before we go on here, I shall ask you two questions. Who gave Rascher the orders to do these experiments?\nA.Rascher wanted to make these experiments within the framework of the SS and he acted always so that the SS should have the leadership and the direction of those experiments, that we ourselves impose conditions to safeguard and guarantee the experiments, and for that purpose, should supply the experts, for Rascher was always only an assistant doctor to our own experts, and he was ---- I decided that he should be nothing more than an assistant.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 968, "page_number": "", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "784a", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 969, "page_number": "785", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "Q.Witness, that is not a very exact answer to my question.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Can we have an answer to your question, Dr. Bergold? The answer is just one word, isn't it? Who gave Rascher permission to perform these experiments? That included Himmler, didn't it?\nBY DR. BERGOLD:\nQ. \"Witness, Rascher was a reserve officer of the Luftwaffe, wasn't he? What office in the Luftwaffe did release him to join the SS?\nA.The first assignment of Rascher, which was clear to me at the time, was given by Luftgau Kammando 7, and we had to decide the extention of his powers for Rascher belonged to the framework of the Luftgau Kommando 7, and near Dachau, he had his office near Dachau, and Dachau is also part of the Luftgau Kommando 7. Now Rascher had to be released from Dachau, somehow, and from there, Himmler reserved the right to himself to decide these things, because he made these people available, and he wished to reserve the whole direction of this business. That was explained to me by Rascher every time.\nDR. BERGOLD:Your Honor, this is the witness' character; he's apt to be a bit exuberant.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Well, for oratorical or expository, or prolifics, or any number of other words, but I wonder if we can't confine him a little bit to some approximation of an answer to the question.\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes. Perhaps I may be allowed to give some thought on this. As I understand him to say, Rascher was freed to go to the SS, was made by Luftgau Kommande 7. Permission to do the work and the experiments was given by Himmler.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 970, "page_number": "", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "MR. DENNEY:If Your Honor please, I object to Dr. Bergold interpreting the witness' testimony. I submit, I'm as much, perhaps, in doubt as to who (785-a) ordered the experiments from the witness' standpoint as is the Court, and I suggested that the witness be allowed to answer the question and I appreciate Dr. Bergold's trying to offer, but decline it.", "speakers": [ "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 971, "page_number": "786", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "DR. BERGOLD:I asked the Court whether I would be allowed to give my view.\nBY DR. BERGOLD:\nQWitness, who supplied the high altitude chambers for these experiments?\nAThe high altitude chambers were supplied by the DVL, they were responsible for the transport of them there. I had no occasion to give my agreement to this because if these experiments were to be held before, a low pressure chamber was very necessary. I had given my agreement on principle and I take full responsibility for that measure.\nQWitness, did you, before the 15th or 16th of April, 1942 report to Milch on these experiments?\nAI know that once I had decided to give my consent to these parallel experiments, once, in the Ministry, I reported to a senior officer that these experiments would take place. This was as early as 1941.\nQWhich particular senior officer do you mean?\nAWhether I reported this to Milch as I thought initially or whether I reported to General Ruedel, Chief of Air Defense I cannot say very precisely now. This was within the usual routine of regular reports, which were made to the chief of the air defense and the Staatssekretaer, and within this, month to month.\nQAt the beginning you said that since 1940, the Chief of Air Defense was the most important senior officer; is that right?\nAI don't recall the year, but it is quite proble that in 1941, the Chief of Air Defense was present. These reports obliged me to go to the Chief of the Air Defense first. Whether this report was handed on and we went together to the Staats sekretaer, or whether he would let me go alone, or whether he would pass on the report, that changed from case to case.", "speakers": [ "A", "DR. BERGOLD", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 972, "page_number": "", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "There were, at the moment, times when he represented the Staatssekretaer, himself.\nQNow, let us return to the letter from Wolffs. What did you cause to be done after that?\n-786(a)", "speakers": [ "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 973, "page_number": "787", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "A.I passed the letter on to Luftgau 7, to work on it and reach a decision. For, in that area, the experiments were made and they had to make the decision. Whether it was necessary to order Rascher to do this once more or whether the conclusion of the experiments made it unnecessary for Rascher to remain there.\nQ.Did you at that time have any knowledge of the details of the experiments?\nA.No. All I knew was that the experiments there had been carried out. Nor did I feel any worries at that time, because we had been at them for quite some time, and now they were a bit more extensive, concerning the altitude but I expressly had ordered that the altitude effect should be increased only very slowly and that as few experiments as possible should be made. So I felt no misgivings about this order.\nQ.Witness, when did you hear more about these experiments?\nA.I heard about the experiments in the middle of May 1942, when Dr. Ruff had a conversation with him in my official department, which was not in the Ministry itself, but in the Tempelhof Airfield. On that occasion, I had another application from Obergruppenfuehrer Wolf, which this time, had not reached directly but came over Milch's offices, and he asked Milch asked for Rascher's command to be extended. Whether I had ordered Ruff to be there, or whether he came on his own initiative, I cannot say. But two matters were discussed on that occasion between us two. Ruff tells me that he had given orders for the low pressure chamber to be removed from Dachau and he had given orders for his collaborator Romberg to conclude the experiments, because supplementary experiments were necessary for the Luftwaffe, and had now been concluded, and also, because Romberg had told him that Dr. Rascher had begun to experiment alone without him, Romberg, with the low pressure chamber. Rascher, it would appear, had a case of death on that occasion.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 974, "page_number": "", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "I thereupon -- I couldn't call it consent, here. I said that it was quite right for him to remove the chamber at once, so that no further independent work could be done. Nothing could happen, and also our experiments had to come to an end anyway. On that occasion, I showed him Wolf's letter, who had asked for the Rascher order to be extended, and said that I was -787(a) opposed to the extension, and I would suggest to the Staatssekretaer not to allow Rascher and his chamber to remain there, because, as far as the Luftwaffe was concerned, no more -", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 975, "page_number": "788", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "THE PRESIDENT:The Tribunal will recess until 1:30.\nTHE MARSHAL:All persons in the Court, please rise. The Tribunal is recessed until 1330.", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 976, "page_number": "789", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1330 - 7 Feb 1947) ERIC HIPPKE - Resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION (continued) BY DR. BERGOLD: (Attorney for defendant Erhard Milch)\nQ.Mr. Witness; you spoke this morning of it that when in May 42 Ruff was with you the telegram of Wolf requesting the extension of this command, which had come to you via Milch was subject of that discussion, I believe you said that Ruff spoke to you regarding the fact that Rascher had a case of death in his experimentation on the occasion of his own and secret experiments. Did you report this to Wolf as a certain case?\nA.No, I spoke of a case of suspicion, and consequently I told Ruff to come to me immediately in order that I might find out what actually had happened.\nQ.In this discussion with Ruff what else happened, or was that the end of it?\nA.The essential thing that happened was about two points; on the one had that the chambers should be withdrawn; the second that the tests were sufficient and therefore the experiments were to be concluded. These were the two points as far as I was concerned because I was responsible.\nQ.Did Ruff tell you about the results of the experiments the results of his experiments?\nA.No. So far as I remember we did not speak about it at this time. He only said that the experiments were sufficient.\nQ.Witness, what did you then do as a consequence of this telegram of Wolf's to Milch?\nA.I went to State Secretary in order to discuss this telegram, with the thought in mind that regarding further use of the chamber and stating that I did not think Rascher should be further used because our needs for experimentation were now over, and these no longer were needed for the Luftwaffe.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 977, "page_number": "790", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "Q.Witness, did you speak with Milch personally at that time or did you approach him in other ways?\nA.I went to speak to him personally. There was another point to be talked over besides the conclusion of the high altitude tests; namely, and this was given to me by my office for these purposes, the preliminary low pressure experiments, the distress at sea experiments - the sea distress experiment, as they were called. I wanted to speak to him about these matters; these two matters, the conclusion of high altitude experiments and the planning for sea distress experiments; these were the two points I had in mind. I did not succeed in having this talk with Milch. The Staats Secretaer was so busy that it was impossible, and when I could not report to him personally, as frequently happened, I sent him a memorandum, a written report with the questions listed. In the case of these problems I had not brought up the question of the case of death because in the first place, in my opinion it was not clear whether or not it actually had taken place; and secondly, I also believed that such emornadums which were frequently inserted, the file should not be put down on such a memorandum.\nQ.Witness, what about the freezing experiments?\nA.The freezing experiment problem had already been a considerable problem to us, even before then; because we had the experience with fliers who at low temperatures fell into the water, despite the fact that they had their warm flyers' clothing, nevertheless in this cold water -- and it really was very cold - that they died. And we had the experience that if they succeeded in staying alive they nevertheless died subsequently despite all the efforts that were then usual and which we made, medicine, warm blankets, etc., they died nevertheless. This was not mainly our problem. And I recall that in the case of ships that sank, The Navy had made the experience that people brought to land who were still alive, subsequently, despite all medical care died.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 978, "page_number": "", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "In other words, we stood - 790(a) here confronted with a riddle -- why did they not recover later; and why did their condition progressively grow worse until they died?", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 979, "page_number": "791", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "All of these people were unconscious; they were also stiff after they had been in cold water for a considerable length of time, but they were still alive, and without our being able to understand this, they died subsequently.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 980, "page_number": "792", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "That was for us a large and new problem. Now, in order to find out why death came and find out what measures of a medical nature we should take in order to save these people - that was our problem. This problem had been worked on exhaustively by physiologists, by clinicians and others and experiments had been made here and they were then under way and these animal experiments which were usually carried out on small animals by Weltz carrying on these experiments. Most of them on guinea pigs and some experiments were made on larger animals but still no experiments on human beings and it was clear to me that in such an important question as this, experiments on human bodies had to be carried out and were indispensable because the human body simply in the relationship to surface end volume has different proportions from those in animal bodies. I wanted, if possible, to dispense with the experiments. I wanted to carry out experiments on large animals and the only animals I could use were monkeys. During that time I discussed this question regarding the use of monkeys with Prof. Struckholt from the Research Institute in Berlin. He, however, assured me that at this time it was impossible to get hold of monkeys in Germany. He, himself, had made efforts to get monkeys for other purposes, primarily for experiments with centrifugal force and I also recollect that he had made experiments with monkeys for he had photographs of them - X-rays how the blood was re-distributed in case of the centrifugal force experiments. This could be seen in the X-rays that were taken daring the course of the experiments.\nQ.Pause after each sentence otherwise the technical matters - - the interpreters will be behind.", "speakers": [ "Q." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 981, "page_number": "793", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "AHe assured me that it was impossible at that time in Germany to get 'hold of apes for this experiment, consequently the planning of such experiments took the same course in high-altitude experiments, only these here, experiments in rather cold water. The preliminary discussions had reached the point where I could submit the plan to the ministry and since I could not report personally this is the explanation for the memorandum, which in the middle of May I presented to the State Secretary namely, Milch. Rascher personally at this time had not reported to me. I do, at any rate, not recall any report by Rascher. That is, in the middle of May.\nDR. BERGOLD:Your Honor, I have a request. I ask that -- from my document book, the last page -- I ask that you look at the last page of my document book, the chronological list of the prosecution documents so that the Tribunal will see how far this matter has progressed. We have reached that point in my interrogation of the witness that I have indicated by the intermediate title \"High-altitude Esperiments Terminated.\" I do that in order to point out to the bench that I believe that I have proved that up to this time Milch knew nothing more precisely of these experiments. Witness, please proceed. Rascher then came to you because as you said before, you asked him to?\nABefore Rascher turned up at my office I received a second request from Obergruppenfuehrer Wolf that tho lowpressure chambers and Dr. Rascher should be retained for further experiments. This was in the first days of June. This annoyed me considerably. This pressure on the part of tho SS which I could only explain to myself by believing that Rascher on his own initiative had urged this because he was interested in it -- in the direction of his professership at the University it interested him to carry out certain experiments.", "speakers": [ "A", "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 982, "page_number": "", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "Now, at the time when after the previous experiments under Ruff and Romberg he had found out so much in this field, that he could now work and carry out experiments alone. I think he must have laid a great deal of importance on this because the scientific individual was 793A important to him and to prove he must function not only as an assistant but as his own boss and to prove that he had solved such medical problems himself.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 983, "page_number": "794", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "Q.Witness, how did you receive this letter from Wolf?\nA.Again it was a letter that was submitted to me through Statesecretary Milch.\nDR. BERGOLD:Your Honors, I ask you now to turn to the Prosection's Exhibit No. 89, 1st Prosecution Document Book 5-A, page 24 of the Document Book. Milch letter to Hippke of 4 June 1942. 24 in my Document your Honor. Document No-261. Page 24. I ask permission to show this document to the witness so that he may see it. Can you recall ever having received such a communication, witness?\nA.Yes, I did receive such a letter.\nQ.Was this accompanied by Wolff's telegram or request?\nA.That I do not know.\nQ.How did you understand Wolff's communication to you? I ask your opinion of what - did you understand it as an order or as a - - ?\nA.No, it wasn't an order. It was a proposal because the German word \"soll\" which means \"shall\". It could have been phrased as a command but in the German phraseology here it isn't phrased as a command. At any rate, I always construed it as a proposal and suggestion.\nQ.Witness, then did you do what Milch suggested? To give Rascher further orders or then did you send the low-pressure chamber back to Dachau?\nA.No, I did not carry that out because my point of view was that for the Luftwaffe no further work of this sort was necessary in this field. At any rate, not at this time, for this reason I did not carry it out. I certainly under no case should have done it before Rascher had reported to me because we were not sure whether this was or was not really a new proposition or whether it was simply a warning in connection with the previous suggestion that the length of time is between the two is so short that that could have simply been a second supplement to the first proposal -794(a) so first of all, I waited.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 985, "page_number": "795", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "It was clear to me that the needs of the Luftwaffe had been met and so there was no reason for us to give them a chamber which was only there for our own purposes but not to satisfy the scientific efforts and special interests of Rascher.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 986, "page_number": "796", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "Q.Witness, when did Rascher come to you?\nA.In the first days of June, that is when it must have been. Shortly after I asked Rascher to appear, he did.\nQ.Please describe this talk with Rascher.\nA.It probably started in this fashion. I said to him, \"Rascher, Dr. Ruff tells me that you have begun to make experiments on your own with the low pressure chamber without Dr. Romberg, and he also suspected you had a case of death during those experiments. Did you carry out experiments on your own intitiative with that chamber and did you have a fatality?\" He answered, me, \"Yes, I did want to make a few supplementary experiments, but at that time the chamber was taken away from me.\" I asked him, \"Did you have fatalities or a fatality?\" He replied, \"No.\" Then I asked him, \"Did really nothing happen?\" He answered this question with, \"No.\" Then I said, \"Rascher, then everything went off very well?\" I can remember my very words, \"Everything went off very well?\" And he answered with a very military \"Yes, indeed.\" This military affirmation I regarded as an official report from him, and I believe that I could rely on it. Then I immediately asked, \"Did you bring your report with you?\" Whereupon he replied, \"The report is not yet completed; moreover, the Reichsfuehrer So had orders that the report should first be shown to him because he had made these people available, and it was under direction.\" Thereupon I said that it was very well with me, but I must have the report. \"To what height did you then proceed?\" That was important from the practical point of view. Whereupon he replied, \"Up to 21 Kilometers.\" And then I asked him, \"That is the full height of the chamber, why do you still want the low pressure chamber?\"", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 987, "page_number": "", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "There were others who wanted the chamber. He said, \"The experiments at utmost heights don't seem to have been completed yet.\" Whereupon I said, \"But Dr. Ruff told me they were sufficient. You are not going to get that chamber again.\" Thereupon we went into a discussion of the question of freezing, and he said that he had been ordered by the Reichsfuehrer SS to begin the freezing experiments. This question was already under consideration. Now it had become pressing, and they wanted a practical solution of it. I was also clear as to the necessity. In other words, I had to 796a Decide at this moment, and in view of the importance of the question, I called on my expert and spoke with him and Rascher together, discussing this question, whom we should put in scientific direction of these experiments.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 988, "page_number": "", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "I personally was thinking of Professor Weltz, who had made the animal experiments. But in the discussion that then took place ----- I believe that it was BeckerFreyseng who was working on this question---- the expert said that it wasn't important to have a theoretician like Weltz in charge of these experiments, but rather a practical person; because my point of view in all these freezing experiments was to ascertain the effectiveness of protective clothing and affording warmth to the fliers who were it and which was then being tested to ascertain whether the experiences we had already had from the animal experiments, namely that the rapid application of heat was, if not the only, at any rate the best means. He wanted to find out whether these experiences also applied to human beings. A researcher who filled both of these prerequisites, namely, both regarding protective clothing --- it was a question here of gas pockets built into the clothing, which developed a foam-----and also a man who had the practical experience in treating sea distress where shipwrecked persons or fliers were treated and taken care of. Professor Holzloehmer seemed to be the best person for this, because he was the most experienced worker in both these fields. As my expert had explained to me on this occasion, he had taken part in the development of protective clothing and had an experimental station that had worked on this, and moreover had practical experience in saving shipwrecked persons in the North Sea--- in other words, j797 practical experience.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 989, "page_number": "", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "I readily perceived that Professor Holzloehner was particularly good for the direction of these whole experiments, and as a supervisor of them better than Professor Weltz, who was simply a laboratory man and a theoretician. Consequently I took Rascher to Holzloehner. Other names were also mentioned. At any rate we decided on Holzloehner and instructed him to get in touch with him in order to find out if he wanted this task. After some length of time Holzloehner visited me and received his statement of policy from me, the same general directive that had been issued in the case of former experiments, with one exception, namely, the easing of 797a pain.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 990, "page_number": "798", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "I was of the opinion that people, even if they were dressed and were put in cold water and their muscles became rigid, slowly but inevitably they must feel pain, and it was important for me to combat that. Here to I demanded selfexperiment as well of Rascher as also of Holzloehner.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 991, "page_number": "799", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "Q.Were you also using prisoners condemned to death here under the condition they would be pardoned?\nA.The other conditions were exactly the same as I said with this exception regarding reducing pain. I was not thinking of nercosis at that time, but as I told Holzloehner, I was thinking of easing pain with medicents which did not affect the heart or breathing as a wrong experimental result would have occured otherwise.\nQ.In this discussion with Rascher was Dr. Jarish of Innsbruck University also proposed?\nA.On this occasion I did not mention Professor Jarish. He was a Pharmacologist. In his case there was only a question of how far the medicants would go in regard to the heart action. It turned out from the very beginning, however, that this was not an important question because the animal experiments had already demonstrated that the application of drugs was uncertain and that would also be the case in experimenting with human beings. That is why we did not place any particular weight on that particular problem, or at least, why I did not.\nQ.Did you also suggest Professor Dr. Singer for this work?\nA.I remember that the name singer did come up. Singer was, in my opinion, the pathologist in Munich who worked on our research. That included the entire Munich area as a pathologist for the Luftgau. This man was the closest one to deal with pathological problems should they arise, but this work, too, was not of perticular importance to me; that is, that aspect of the work.\nQ.Witness, I shall show you that in a report of Rascher, he asked Himmler whether the Gestapo was satisfied with Jarish, Singer and Holzloehner.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 992, "page_number": "", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "A.No. The Gestapo was never discussed with me.\nQ.In other words Rascher told an untruth here?\nA.I believe that it is the case here, particularly since I have seen other later letters where he frequently very serious lies in his letters.\nQ.Witness, after this discussion with Rascher, when did you hear something farther about the experiments?\nA.Professor Holzloehner was appointed for these experiments by directives from my personnel office. Whether it was from there or through some other way, I cannot say precisely, but Holzloehner was assigned to the region 799a of Gau 7. He worked there in the Dachau vicinity.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 993, "page_number": "800", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "Consequently, orders for this man had to be issued by the Luftgau. Singer never visited me personally. I do not know him personally nor can I recollect what he looks like. In any event it was an appointment on the part of the Luftwaffe. They wanted to be assured orders were carried out allng the lines they wished. Holzloenher received this task from me in writting.\nQ.Repeat the sentence in which you mentioned Dachau.\nA.I do not know if I can remember. Holzloehner did not belong to the Luftgau 7 so far as I know, but he belonged to another Luftgau. Consequently he had to be expecially assigned to Luftgau 7 in order to be able to work in Dachau. He was to carry on supervisory activities in Dachau and these activities must be approved by us.\nQ.Witness, after all of this happened, when did you again hear something about these experiments?\nA.I did not hear about the beginning of the freezing experiments in Dachau. No report about it came to me so I do not know whether these experiments began at a certain time. I know when they ended because Holzloehner was then assigned to other jobs.\nQ.Witness, did you then in August, the end of August, hear something about the experiments as a whole, those altitude and freezing experiments?\nA.Yes, sir. At the end of August, finally, the report on high altitude experiments came in. They came from Himmler to Milch and from Milch to me. It was to be worked on by us. I went to see him.\nQ.Then did you read this report which is of the 28th of July?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 994, "page_number": "", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "DR. BERGOLD:Your Honors, you will find it in your Document Book. It is Exhibit No. 114. It is appended to the letter of the 26th of September. It is addressed to Himmler. You will see that the page is dated 28th July 1942.\nQ.Did you read this report when it was sent to you?\nA.If it is the report signed by Rascher, Ruff and Bromberg I did read it; yes. The State Secretary Milch sent it to me. I worked over it because it was of greatest importance to me.\n800a", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 995, "page_number": "801", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "Q.It can be seen from this report, which is in a special document book of its own --\nMR DENNEY:It is page 155 of Document Book 5.\nDR. BERGOLD:I have just been informed your Honor that the copy you have is unfortunately not complete. We can copy the pages I shall present to the witness and submit them to you later. I regret that this important part was not submitted to the Court in total.\nMR DENNEY:If Your Honor please, Dr. Bergold is misinformed. I think He was looking to see if we had a photostat of it. Obviously we do not have a photostat because the photostat is in German.\nDR. BERGOLD:I understand.\nMR. DENNEY:The copy we have is complete. I am informed we do have a complete copy.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The Court has complete copy.\nMR. DENNEY:Yes, Your Honor.\nDR. BERGOLD:That is good. Then everything is in order.\nQ.Witness, in this report, on page 13 of the original, a descendence experiment at 15 kilometers is described. The prosecution read this passage into the record. In regard to this description of 15 kilometers height, did you get the idea that the experimental people were tortured?\nA.No. By no means. There can be no talk of torture, nor can you find any evidence of it in this report. As it is stated here, it is a perfectly ordinary one. They show the reactions of a person after there is lack of oxygen and the way the brain progessively improves.\nFrom the remarks \"screams loudly\", \"keeps on screaming\", yells spasmodically\", you cannot decide the person felt pain.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "MR. DENNEY", "MR DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 996, "page_number": "", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "When you are confused, you often shout or scream without having pain. It can be compared to what people do when they are drunk. There is no question of pain. It connects with what I previously said. Also the trembling of muscles is painless.\n801a CORRECTION SHEET The following portion on page 802 is corrected to read as follows:", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 997, "page_number": "", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "THE PRESIDENT:May the Court interrupt. Will you have this witness to explain what is clonic convulsion?\nTHE WITNESS:Tonic convulsions are rigid convulsions, in counter distinction, clonic convulsions are twitchings. May I show you by demonstrating with my hand, that is a clonic convulsion (demonstrating with his hand a motion). That is a very typical symptom of lack of oxygen, This we even may find out as a controlling sympton in order to recognize whether there was an actual lack of oxygen.\nQWill you also explain the word \"Opisthotonus\"?\nA \"Opisthotonus\" is the bending backward of the head to a firm position. It is a result of a clonic or rigid contraction of the back of the neck which pulls the head back.\nQThen does this convulsion, that is, when convulsive and clonic, biting the tongue, or convulsive yelling, does that indicate pain?", "speakers": [ "THE WITNESS", "THE PRESIDENT", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 998, "page_number": "802", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "Q.I wish to show now another page.\nTHE PRESIDENT:May the Court interrupt. Will you have this witness to explain what is a clonic convulsion?\nTHE WITNESS:Tonic convulsions are rigid convulsions, in distinction, Clonic convulsions are twitchings. May I show you by demonstrating with my hand, that is a clonic convulsion (demonstrating with his hand a motion). That is a very tipical symptom of lack of oxygen. This we even may find out as a controlling symptom in order to recognize whether there was an actual lack of oxygen.\nQ.Will you also explain the words \"Opisthotonus.\"\nA.Opisthotonus is the bending backward of the head to a firm position. It is a result of a tonic or rigid contraction of the back of the neck which pulls the head back.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Then its your contention that neigher convulsions nor biting of the tongue nor convulsive yelling indicate pain?\nA.Yes, this is muscular twitching, and convulsions are not painful, but they take place without the possesion of pain in the skin where they are an exercise of pain but using an expression of muscular function which is not the same thing as a stomach convulsion, which is associated with pain. This is a muscular cramp without pain. Thousands of researchers have proved this again and again. I also know from my personal experience on my own body that there are no pain in association with this muscular convulsion as a result of lack of oxygen. That we have had so many examinations, and we have had so many experiments by air experts here, that they could tell you of their own experience and I need not report of my own experience. This was generally known, and it is also known from medical literature and from reports.", "speakers": [ "THE WITNESS", "Q.", "A.", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 999, "page_number": "", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "JUDGE MUSMANNO:Dr. Bergold, as the original plan does the witness have the report which we are considering?\nTHE WITNESS:I have it.\nQ.I would like to draw his attention to the bottom of the page 169 that is the English report, and to have him explain-- that was 24 802a of the original, and have him explain it.", "speakers": [ "THE WITNESS", "Q.", "JUDGE MUSMANNO" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1000, "page_number": "803", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "Witness, you have stated several times that the subject, they had no pain. Will you explain to the Court what is meant by the entry \"Reacts to pain stimuli?\"\nA.Let me first find it, I have not as yet found it.\nQ.Page 164 here, at the bottom, under grafic account of the subject, and \"reaction\" shown there.\nA.I believe I can explain without having that before me. I can say this means that they are taking the examination of the person whether he is in full possession of his faculties, and they are conducting the examination by either pricking him with a pin, or by touching him in some other way, and attempting to find whether he reacts to it, in other words, it is another way of proving whether or not he is in control of his faculties. This is a test in order to find out whether he can judge his envirements correctly, or whether that is not the case. A little pain is put to him for this purpose. That probably was doing the sort of thing we do in our pathological tests, otherwise, to account whether they react to sharpness or bluntness, or, hardness, or softness, and in order to find that out it was done.\nQ.When you say he reacts to pain stimuli, you necessarily mean that he feels pain, do you not?\nA.Please repeat the question Your Honor.\nQ.Yes I shall. I have this here, that the subject reacts to pain stimuli. Do you mean that he feels pain, do you not?\nA.To be sure that is not what we would call pain. We take a needle and touch his skin with it to see whether he reacts to it as a conscious person would, in removing it with his hand, that is not pain, but that is positively a touch to discover whether he is fully conscious or not.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1001, "page_number": "", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "This question is of more practical importance to us, and for this reason we look into it because it is only after a person is fully competent after he comes to whether he or they can open the parachute, in that case we must be able to know whether he can do it. If he is not in a condition to do it, then we have to develop 803a an automatic way of releasing the parachute.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1002, "page_number": "804", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "That is the point in that remark.\nBY DR. BERGOLD:\nQ.With such a little demonstration by pin, is that not the custom of all countries of the world, a customary test?\nA.It is a daily form of test and is used everywhere, not only on account for the usual effect in our tests, Your Honor, but by all the countries in their tests.\nQ.I ask you now to look or rather did you ascertain in this report that both Dr. Romberg and Rascher had undertaken experiments on themselves.\nA.I recall that out of the one passage, it can be seen that this was so, that they carried on experiments on themselves.\nQ.Please look at pages 15 to 18, and tell me whether this is the passage to which you refer? I have marked them in pencil,\nA.Yes, it can be clearly from this page that these are experiments on themselves within the framework of experiments on human beings, because even there in the text these names are mentioned, one abbreviated as RO and one abbreviated as R. That is, the two names Romberg and Rascher who carried on these experiments, or proved these experiments of themselves.\nQ.Not look at page 18, this is an experiment on the part of Romberg, will you explain that, now? I believe it is page 18.\nA.This is here. These are experiments on whether or not in the case of Romberg --- in this experiment of Romberg it was an experiment under particularly difficult circumstances, not under normal circumstances.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1003, "page_number": "", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "Q.At what height of altitude did these experiments take place?\nA.At 15 kilometers. Now wait, I am not quite through. This Romberg experiment at the particularly high altitude, as I see here, and under particularly difficult circumstances it is being carried out. It is higher than Rascher's. It was between 12 and 12 and a 1/2 kilometers high and I assume it must have been about 15 804a", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1004, "page_number": "805", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "Q.Will you please return the report to me.\nA.They were self experimenting in this, it can not be doubted.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Dr. Kippke, does it occur to you that possibly \"RO\" means Romberg's \"patient\" if I may use that term or Rascher's \"patient\" rather than these two men themselves?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1005, "page_number": "806", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "AThat is very improbable since they were the two conductors of the experiments and that was certainly explained by the experiment itself, because if that had been the case, everyone would have to assume from this report that they were in parson the experimental subjects. I consider it out of the question that should mean that it is their patients and not Romberg and Rascher themselves.\nTHE PRESIDENT:I would suggest to you that they would find it a little inconvenient to be both the patient and the subject.\nTHE WITNESS:Nevertheless, that was our basic principle in all these experiments, to use ourselves with no regard for our comfort. That is asked of a physician that he expose himself to the same conditions as those to which he exposes his patients. That is part of medical ethics.\nDR. BERGOLD:Your Honors, in this question, I ask you to look at Page 17 of the original, which is on Page 164 and read there in the middle what is there stated. There is stated verbatim: \"When he recovered consciousness...\" That proves indisputably that it is a question of Romberg himself. The German reads in such a way as to prove that it is an experiment that Romberg carried on himself.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:While you're on Page 17, Dr. Bergold, I'd like to draw to your attention, and of course I mean by \"your attention\" the witness' attention, these items in the report which seem to be at variance with what the witness states, that the subject felt no pain. \"Only the usual pains attendant with bends occurred. There developed very gradually a condition of weakness, combined with a peculiar headache. After ten minutes...\"\nDR. BERGOLD:The apparatus if faulty, apparently. I can only hear the English.\nTHE WITNESS:Please tell me that again.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:I have understood you to say that the subject experienced no pain in these altitude tests.\nTHE WITNESS:In these experiments, there is no pain. One of the experiments here described -", "speakers": [ "THE WITNESS", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "A", "JUDGE MUSMANNO" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1006, "page_number": "807", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "JUDGE MUSMANNO:Please let me finish the question, witness. I direct your attention to these items in the report on which you have been commenting. The first item is on Page 17 of the original: \"Only the usual pains attendant with bends occurred.\" Second item: \"There developed very gradually a condition of weakness combined with a peculiar headache.\" Further down on the same page, the third item: \"After ten minutes stay at this altitude, pains began on the right side with a spasticparalytic condition of the right leg which increased continually as though RA's whole right side were being crushed between two presses. At the same time, there were most severe headaches as though the skull were being burst apart. The pains became continually more severe so that at last the discontinuation of the experiment became necessary.\" Now, what is meant by the word \"pain\" in that report?\nTHE WITNESS:I explained it as an exceptional case because this was not purely a sinking experiment. It was a so-called high altitude experiment where people stayed at high altitudes. People stay at a certain altitude for a certain length of time and then at this altitude have certain symptoms which in a normal experiment they wouldn't have. The symptoms that result from falling are quite different from this and here this is an exception. The technician for these matters should be namely Dr. Ruff, the man who had charge of this whole experimentation. He should be asked on this matter. He could give you a much better explanation of it than I can.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:Very well. In some instances, you will admit that the subject did experience pain? Yes or no?\nTHE WITNESS:Yes, but not in the experiments that were carried on here with the criminals.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:It was only the innocent ones who experienced pain?\nTHE WITNESS:This experiment has been carried on with a -\nTHE PRESIDENT:At the request of the Interpreting Department, we are going to modify the time at which we recess to ten minutes of the hour until five or ten minutes after. This is in order to split up the work of the two interpreters more evenly so that the recess doesn't come entirely out of one interpreter's time and the other works a little more than that. Hereafter, then, at eleven and three, we will recess at ten minutes to eleven and ten minutes to three, thereabouts; but right now, in any event.", "speakers": [ "THE WITNESS", "THE PRESIDENT", "JUDGE MUSMANNO" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1007, "page_number": "808", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "THE MARSHAL:The Tribunal is in recess for 15 minutes.", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1008, "page_number": "809", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "AFTERNOON SESSION\nTHE MARSHALL:All persons in the court room will please find a seat. Tribunal No. 2 is again in session.\nMR. KING:I would like to correct the record with reference to this morning's session so far as the testimony of this witness is concerned. On several occasions he used the term \"Staatssekretaer im Luftfahrt Ministerium\", which was translated as \"Under-Secretary of State\", as your honor will recall. That was improperly translated and should have been translated as \"State Secretary in the Air Ministry\", I spoke to Dr. Bergold about this and he agreed with me that of course when he used the term he was referring to the Defendant. As the records read one might be led to believe that there was some undersecretary that is not the case.\nDR. BERGOLD:Witness, I now come back once more to the experiment of Romberg which was put to you by the Court. Is it correct that this was a different type of experiment from the one on oxygen?\nA.I had the impression that this is a special type of experiment, outside of the scheme of the usual experiments, therefore you can not compare this with the other experiments. It should be assumed that in the case of the doctor who is making experiments on himself that other and more severe conditions were included in this experiment. As far as I can see, there are symptoms concerning the joints. In special circumstances, this can occur as I said before, and can hurt, but only under different conditions than those, which I had intended in my experiments. To say in detail on this system, I would like Dr. Ruff to make statements about that who is particularly well informed about that, or Dr. Romberg as well.", "speakers": [ "A.", "MR. KING", "THE MARSHALL", "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1009, "page_number": "", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "Q.Witness, the fact that oxygen is being used, do you mean that the experimental person Romberg retained his consciousness throughout?\nA.No, that is not to be concluded from that. Because in altitudes above 12 to 13 kilometers, you lost consciousness even if you use oxygen.\nQ.Could one deduct from these reports that during all of these experiments no fatalities and no permanent lasting injury occurred?\nA.It was expressed in a sentence that no fatality occurred and no permanent injury.\n809a", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1010, "page_number": "810", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "Q.Is that expressed in the second paragraph of page 25 of the original?\nA.Yes, it is the last paragraph in from of Roman Numeral 4. It says: \"In conclusion, we must make it particularly clear that, in view of the extreme experimental conditions in this whole experimental series, no fatality and no lasting injury due to oxygen lack occurred.\"\nQ.What did you do after you studied this report?\nA.In order to answer this report I went to Milch with a draft of of a reply to Milch. I would like to be told whether I should now refer to the contents of that conversation with Milch, or whether you are putting single questions to me?\nQ.Please tell us about this, but tell us first when this conversation took place?\nA.It was at the end of August.\nQ.Witness, tell us about the conversation with the Defendant?\nA.I went to the Defendant Milch and took to him my reply which was considered essentially a letter of thanks to the sender, Reichsfuehrer SS Himmler, and I told him about this: \"I have with me the draft of the reply for the high altitude experiments which were carried out by the SS under collaboration of our Luftwaffe doctors.\" Thereupon, he Milch put a question to me: \"What interest does the SS have in these experiments?\" and I replied, \"The main interest it seems to me is founded on VANITY on the part of the SS --- I thought of Rascher and Himmler --- in order to make a good impression on Hitler in carrying out of such experiments, by so doing showing what the SS had done for the prosecution of such matters, also the SS wished to express by this that the Luftwaffe doctors were a little bit slow and old fashioned in the way they carried out their tasks, and that they had to be stepped up as it where.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1011, "page_number": "", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "Milch then asked me what sort of experiments these were; I answered high altitude experiments, and freezing experiments. He then asked me what the term freezing meant. I was prepared for that question as it was a new term which even among medical men was not used frequently. I explained to him this term. That it is connected with cooling, which is suffered by pilots who have bailed out in the sea, if and when the temperature of water is 810a very low, and the bodies would quickly go rigid and this would be followed quickly by death; and, therefore, a quick rescue was a very urgent matter, to be done at once; and treatment on the part of the doctor required emergency and special measures, because the pilots who were rescued, often died; that the old methods of life saving were inadequate; the wrapping up in blankets and other methods of keeping them warm, it was therefore necessary to work on this problem in order to find out how pilots who were rescued could be kept alive.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1012, "page_number": "811", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "That was the subject of the present experiments of cooling and freezing with the SS.\nI added also, that the work done here did not meat my sympathy but were important matters and seemed to me highly necessary. He wanted to know if I had any special reason to be opposed to collaboration of the SS; whether I had any objections. I replied to him \"No\" but because this work was not explained to me and because of the collaboration of two different government departments, resulting in confusion in the execution of orders, it was undesirable and secondly the SS did not seem to me competent or expert, because the question of cooling were matters of the Navy and Luftwaffe and the question of high altitude was purely a matter of the Luftwaffe. Therefore, I did not give them back the high pressure chamber which the requested; he told me that he agreed to that. The chamber should not be given back to them. I believe it was mentioned that it was then already used somewhere else. It was brought to the territory in the area of GROSSGLOCKNER. Then, I referred again to the contents of those reports and explained that it concerned experiments by our avaiation doctors and also by the SS; experiments by the SS on men who had been sentenced to death----murders---men who had volunteered and who were promised a pardon,(pause) who were promised to be pardoned from the Execution.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1013, "page_number": "", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "We then discussed the results of the experiments briefly, that they had been concluded, that is, altitudes up to 20 kilometers. And that a number of other important technical questions had been settled at the 811a same time.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1014, "page_number": "812", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "I believe to remember that I mentioned automatic openings of parachutes on that occasion.\nThen the form of letter was decided on because, my draft was very extensive; since I wished to explain to Himmler why further experiments need not be made. Milch thought this was too comprising, he corrected it and had it rewritten. This also included orders of Rascher and Ruff to report to him. Whether he sent the letter off or not I do not know. He probably coped with the matter. That is my conversation with Milch at the end of August, I think, probably, by the 31st of August-\nDR. BERGOLD:Witness, did you on that occasion--", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1015, "page_number": "813", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "BY JUDGE PHILLIPS:\nQ.The 31st of August of what year?\nA. 1942.\nQ.How long did these experiments continue: over what period of time were they being carried out.\nA.They probably began at the end of February or the beginning of March, and should have been concluded by the end of May.\nQ.When were they concluded?\nA.The date when the results were concluded I do not know, all I know is what Dr. Ruff tells me, that he withdrew the chamber and later on-\nQ.Witness, and you tell the Tribunal the first time that the defendant Milch knew of these experiments was when you had this conversation with him. About the 31st day of August 1942?\nA.Personally yes, in a written letter on the 20th of May?\nQ.Did he know of them my way except personally?\nA.I cannot answer that but I saw him on the 31st of August and I had the impression that this matter was knew to him, nor did I think that he had worked on this report himself because otherwise he wouldn't have asked me to tell him about the report.\nQ.You were his subordinate, and considered these experiments so important; why didn't you tell him about it before they were completed?\nA.I didn't think it important enough for me to go to Milch and report to him. They were the same type of experiments which were made by ourselves; this was purely a supplementary experiment, and the only knew element in it was that other people took part in it; and I did not come across any danger element in the experiment.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1016, "page_number": "", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "Q.I understood you to say that these were experiment of the utmost importance to the Luftwaffe.\nA.The results were very important to the Luftwaffe, but I say that the danger element is very small.\nBY DR. BERGOLD:\nQ.In that conversation on the 31st of August 1942, did you tell Milch 813a That there had been fatalities?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1017, "page_number": "814", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "A.I mentioned in the report that nothing had happened because it said so. I mean we did not refer to it.\nQ.Did you tell him about these suspicions Ruff passed on to you that Rascher had one fatality---one casualty?\nA.No. I was convinced that this matter had been settled by Rascher's report to me. I saw Rascher's report and therefor looked upon this matter as settled; and therefor did not report to Milch about it; I did not do so?\nQ.Thank you. Witness, do you know if Milch according to the letter of 31st August 1942 asked Rascher or Romberg or Ruff to report to him and did he receive them?\nA.I know nothing of such a report. I only saw it from the files at which period they came to see him, but I did probably later hear about this oral report because I expressed my indignation that those two Doctors when they appeared at Milch's office did not see me, who was concerned as a Doctor; but went directly to Milch; and even afterward they did not see me, but only in the Ministry showed a film without me being present. Therefore I was amazed that I was not included in this business.\nQ.Should you, according to the rules, have been invited to this oral report?\nA.As it was in my field of activity that I should have been referred to. Why it did not happen I cannot say. I was amazed that I was not present. Later on I formed the opinion that the whole thing was or must be the result of vanity that the SS with its achievements of their own wished to take the floor and make the impression on Milch from whom there was a direct channel to Goering, whereas an oral report to me would have found it a final settlement.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1018, "page_number": "", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "I say that the vanity is the strongest motive.\nQ.Witness, after the report on high altitude experiments had been submitted, what did you hear about the freezing experiments?\n814a", "speakers": [ "Q." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1019, "page_number": "815", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "A.As I said before Holzloehner came to see me; I wanted to first clear up one point in the experiments, one particular point, and that is as to what they should be confined. I was not present at the beginning of the report, at the start of the experiments, but I heard its conclusion by calling a meeting in Nurnberg on the cooling and freezing questions and it concerned the Luftwaffe; and on that meeting, which was held on the 26 and 27 of October, 1942, in Nurnberg, on that occasion Prof. Holzloehner reported on animal experiments and Prof. Hirta explained his experiences in the Sea Rescue Service in the North Sea area, but also Dr. holzloehner gave us his results of the Dachau experiments.\nQ.Witness, I shall now show you the final report on freezing experiments of 10 October 1942. This is Exhibit No. 106, Document No. 428. I am unable to give you English page No. I had it in my book but it fell out. Perhaps Mr. Denney can help me.\nMR. DENNEY:Page 83, in Document Book 53.\nQ.Witness, please go to the last page and look at the report. Have you got the right page?\nA.Yes.\nQ.This report is dated 10 October 1942. Is that correct?\nA.The report is dated as having been concluded on 10 October 1942.\nQ.Witness, were you ever given that report either directly or again via Himmler and Milch?\nA.This report was never passed on to at all.\nQ.Before I showed you this report, did you ever see it?\nA.I saw it for the first time here during my arrest in Nurnberg.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1020, "page_number": "", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "Q.May it please the Court, may I ask you once again to see the last Document in my Document book, the chronological index, which is sort of a time table, from which you can see that on 10 October 1942 there is an entry freezing experiments concluded. Witness, did you up to that date hear anything that in freezing experiments there were fatalities?\nA.No, up to that date I heard nothing at all about the details about freezing experiments. Therefore I know nothing about the question of 815a possible fatalities.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1021, "page_number": "816", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "Q.Did you ever report to Milch prior to that date, apart from the conversation of 31 August 1942?\nA.Apart for the oral report on 31st August 1942 and apart from the memorandum of 20 May, I told him nothing.\nQ.Witness, I now submit to you your own letter of 10 October 1942, Exhibit No. 95, Document No. 289 in the German Document Book, page 57, page 32 of the English document Book, 32 5A. Will you please show the witness this letter, but don't read it allowed. Have you read it?\nA.Yes.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1022, "page_number": "817", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "Q.Witness when you wrote this letter of 10 October 1942 did you know that the freezing experiments had been concluded?\nA.No, I had not been informed about this. I assumed the freezing experiments had been going on.\nQ.Can you see this from your letter?\nA.Yes, the last paragraph I see there says, \"Freezing experiments are still being made at Dachau and high altitude experiments.\"\nQ.Witness, will you please explain why you addressed it to Himmler?\nA.I wanted to convince him of the fact that future experiments need not be made because all of the questions which were settled there had been settled and that knew questions which were still acute were not urgent enough and needed not to be worked on. Therefore, I said that we must build a much bigger low pressure chamber although I knew that during the war the chamber could not be completed because its construction had been forbidden. All I wanted to achieve was that this question should be left alone now and Rascher had already been interested in his scientific work and therefore he pressed things onward that concerned a completely different matter but I didn't know they were still going on in Dachau and I was not very clear that on the day when I wrote the letter these things were going on in Dachau. I didn't know that.\nQ.Witness, at the beginning of this letter you referred to the letter of 25 August 1942 to Milch which Milch had replied to in this letter of 31 August 1942 that becomes clear from such letter 1309, 1242, of 25 August 1942, to State Secretary Milch concerning ---\nA.I think that was the last time that a letter was written on this affair and therefore I pointed to this letter to Himmler.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1023, "page_number": "", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "The connection between the two is very obvious to me because at that time I was aware of what I said here by negative attitude on \"altitude experiments\" and I had mentioned it and explained it in my letter of August and that was crossed out my Milch. That was easy to understand that I saw a connection between the two documents. I established for myself a connection between this letter and that of 10 October 1942.\n817a", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1024, "page_number": "818", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "Q.Did you inform Milch of this letter? Or did you write on your own initiative?\nA.I believe that I wrote on my own initiative. I was always very keen to point out to the SS that the continuation of high altitude experiments was not necessary from the stand point of Luftwaffe needs and I made use of every opportunity to point out time and again because in that respect I was opposed to the SS in that connection. They always wanted us to supply another chamber. I could not see any reason for this.\nQ.May it please the Court. After the witness has been interrogated I shall produce a document on Tuesday which will show that the SS has received the letter dated 10 October 1942 and considered it negative and a refusal. Witness, then there was the freezing meeting in Nurnberg, were you present in that meeting?\nA.No, I wasn't present at the meeting and I have sent my expert Anthony. He had orders to preside over the meeting. I, myself, was very busy on the front which seemed to be more urgent and I had no time to deal with these details in the home country.\nQ.Did Anthony report to you about the meeting?\nA.Yes. As soon as after the meeting he came to me and reported to me orally on the meeting. I asked, particularly on Holzloehner's speech. He described to me that in Holzloehner's speech he had used the experiences of the Sea Rescue Service on the North Seacoast but also he mentioned a few things about his research work in Dachau. I asked him about the questions of fatalities. He explained to me the fatalities had been mentioned but that from the way he spoke, it became quite clear that these fatalities were fatalities in the actual sea rescue service and not fatalities in Dachau experiments and I then said \"a report should be put together of which each one of the professors had to submit a copy to his collaborators.\"", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1025, "page_number": "", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "The report on the Nurnberg meeting was then put together. Later on, after the results which were important to us in my opinion, for the development of high altitude clothes had been discussed with the Government departments concerned, a number of important results were achieved. In particular Anthony reported on this to me, namely, that what the animal experiments had led us to believe had been confirmed that 818a the immediate use of hot water was the most important element in the rescue service.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1026, "page_number": "819", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "That other experiences in the animal experiments were not confirmed such as the favorable use of a special type of electric artificial sun, the use of medicaments similarly as in the animal experiments was a very uncertain thing and one could not rely on them. That is practical results on the medical field and the practical experience for improved production of protective clothing were carried into practice together with the corresponding offices, some of whom were medical some technical. The report itself was then published; there were at that time already great printing difficulties so that the report was certainly only issued in 1943. In any case, as I also wrote to Himmler in my final report on this matter this report did not appear until February 1943. I do not know when it actually did.\nQ.Witness, why did you on that occasion ask Anthony about fatalities?\nA.Because in these experiments I had to expect the possibility of fatalities. I had asked expressly to avoid the fatalities if possible and to increase the extent of experiment so carefully that, if possible, fatalities would be avoided. For that reason I had ordered that experiments made by doctors on themselves should be made because I assumed that the doctor who experiments on himself and exposed himself to the pain coming from extreme cold would be careful enough in using the experimental material, that he would avoid fatalities if possible, and so I thought that every possible safeguard had been arranged. In addition there were means for the mitigation of pain, however in the form of narcosis and it seemed to me not necessary because without full narcosis you can also fight pain.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1027, "page_number": "", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "In any case the possibility that fatalities would occur, I took into consideration for two reasons first, that the animal experiments and practical experiments led us to believe that medicaments were not certain in their effects.\n819a Second, that after a man had been rescued from the water, his life is still in danger which increased to the point that the man concerned dies afterwards.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1028, "page_number": "820", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "Therefore special precautions seemed indicated to me, and these special precautions I asked of both experts Rascher as well as Holzloehner. That is what made my question understandable why I asked whether there had been fatalities.\nQ.Witness, did you tell Milch about the report of Anthony?\nA.I know that later on I only spoke orally about the freezing questions as I talked about all the other essential things at these monthly meetings with the air defense chief and that I talked to the chief in particular about the questions of practical importance for us, improvement of protective clothing, treatment with hot water which seemed to me the most important questions in the medical field just because of the treatment with hot water I personally tried to improve the methods of the treatment as far as possible since I told myself that application of hot water had to be carried out quickly as otherwise these frozen wrecked will die even after rescue. Thus treatment had to set in immediately after rescue.\nTHE PRESIDENT:This is all in answer to the question Did you tell Milch-----\nBY DR. BERGOLD:\nQ.Witness, if I understand you correctly, and please be brief this time if possible, did you report to the Chief of Air Defense Foerester?\nA.Yes, I reported to Foerester.\nQ.Did you report to Milch directly or did Foerester report to Milch? Do you know that?\nA.That I don't know in detail. All I know is that on several occasions Foerster and I reported to Milch together.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1029, "page_number": "", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "Q.On the question of cooling experiments or generally?\nA.Generally. I can't say for certain how the experiments were reported.\nQ.I shall clear this up by the witness Foerster himself, if the court pleases. Witness, I now show you Document Exhibit 119--sorry, my mistake--118, Exhibit 118, which is number 269 letter from Wolff to Milch of November 820a 1942.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1030, "page_number": "821", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "That is on Page 179, Your Honors, of the English Document Book Volume 5--- Number 5, Volume 2, Your Honors. Please read the letter and tell me whether you know it. Do you know this letter?\nA.Yes, I do.\nQ.Was this letter passed on to you by Milch for you to write an answer?\nA.Yes, I wrote the answer to Obergruppenfuehrer Wolff.\nQ.When did the letter of 27 November 1942 pass on to you?\nA.I couldn't say. I can only see that it was answered rather late.\nQ.Will you look at the next document, Exhibit No. 119, Is that your reply? A letter of 6 March 1943.\nA.I expressed in this letter that State Secretary Milch gave me at the end of February a letter of 21 November of the previous year. I conclude from this notice that it wasn't in my office all that time, but with the State Secretary.\nQ.Can you explain to us what this document was doing for a whole quarter of a year in Milch's office?\nA.I can only think that Milch perhaps was not in Berlin at the time and that this letter, which is very personal in character, which can be seen from the address, should not be worked on by anybody else. It seems to me that it reached me only at the end of February, and that I answered on the 6th of March.\nQ.You said just not that this letter should not be worked on by anybody else, but it had been worked on by you, and you are somebody else than Milch, aren't you?\nA.Perhaps I didn't put it very skillfully. It shouldn't be worked in his office by anybody else, or by another official in his office.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1031, "page_number": "", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "Q.Please give me back my Document Book. In that letter did you promise to release Rascher from the Luftwaffe?\nA.Yes, I had the intention to comply with this regulation of the SS, only I had to order him, as we followed the principle that before you transferred from one service to another --- in this case it was the Waffen SS --- the person concerned should be asked if possible and the whole thing should be arranged as an exchange.\n821a", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1032, "page_number": "822", "date": "07 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-07", "text": "QWitness, I now give you -- shall we stop here, if it please the Court? This would take a quarter of an hour.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Yes. The court will recess until Tuesday morning at ninethirty.\n(The Tribunal adjourned until 11 February 1947, at 0930 hours.)", "speakers": [ "THE PRESIDENT", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1033, "page_number": "823", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "Official transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America against Erhard Milch, defendant, sitting at Nuernberg, Germany, on 11 February 1947, 0930, Justice Tems presiding.\nTHE MARSHAL:Persons in the courtroom will please find their seats. The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal No. 2. Military Tribunal No. 2 is now in session. God save the United States of America and this honorable Tribunal. There will be order in the courtroom.\nERIC HIPPKE (Resumed) DIRECT EXAMINATION (continued)\nDR. BERGOLD:Witness. May I continue, Your Honor? May I continue with the examination of the witness, Your Honor? Witness, I shall come back to the letter of the Obergruppenfuehrer Wolf of the 27th of November 1942, Document No. 269, Exhibit No. 118.\nMR. DENNEY:Page 179 of the English Document Book 5-D, your Honor.\nBY DR. BERGOLD:\nQ.Witness, in this letter Wolf writes the following sentence after he had previously mentioned the difficulties concerning the experiments which had arisen and which existed between Rascher and the other doctors. He writes the following sentence: \"I do not want that you and he get crossed about this development.\" He furthermore says in the next to last paragraph of his letter. \"If Dr. Rascher had stayed with the Luftwaffe, then I am sure there would have been a lot of trouble because the Reichsfuehrer SS then would have to bring matters to you which have occurred so far and will also occur in the future. Professor Holzloehner especially plays a role here in order to save you and him a lot of trouble, The Reichsfuehrer SS requests you to transfer Dr. Rascher to the Waffen SS as quickly as possible.\" Witness, how did you understand these messages in the letter, particularly in the language used at that time in Germany?\nA.This tension was clear to me. It consisted in the fact that I was of the opinion that experiments are only to be carried out within the framework of the practical necessity. In other words, to be limited while I was of the impression that the SS upon Rascher's insistance had carried out these experiments to their scientific end in the interest of scientific research work.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "MR. DENNEY", "THE MARSHAL" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1034, "page_number": "824", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "Such scientific work I didn't think at the time was necessary and I was of the opinion that only the practical necessities of the present should be the deciding factor for the experiments. This was the controversy at which we were.\nQ.Witness, I shall proceed to Exhibit 120, Document No. 268. This is your letter of 19 February 1943 to Himmler and it's on page 178 in the German Document Book. I shall give you this document book and I would appreciate it if you would read it.", "speakers": [ "Q." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1035, "page_number": "825", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "A.I know this document.\nQ.Witness, why did you, on the 19th of February, without any previous grounds for that, why did you write to Himmler?\nA.I can explain that. During the winter, I was at the southeastern front in the Black Sea territory where there were quite a lot of transports or difficulties in transportation. When I returned, the person who was responsible for Professor Anthony told me -- according to my knowledge this was Physician General Martinis -- he submitted this prepared letter for my signature as a reason for the necessity, I was told that Professor Helzloehner had asked that this letter be sent, namely, a letter where Himmler should be thanked at the end, and he should also give this to the Commandant at Dachau for billeting him and Finke, and he also mentioned there that Himmler was against me and Holzloeher because of our limitation of the extent of these experiments. That is how this letter was sent, after the experiments had already been completed early in October. The report at that time was not ready. I mean, the report concerning the Nurnberg conference which I called in October and at which Anthony presided. It is clear that about 20 people lectured there, and of course it took quite a while until all these documents were ready and could be printed.\nQ.Witness, were the thanks that were sent to the Commandant, wasn't that, thanking him for the fact that inmates were used for the experiments?\nA.No, that is the way I was told that we should thank the Commandant for his billeting of our two doctors. That is how the letter was written and I signed it that way. It had been written by that particular department or by General Doctor Martius.\nQ.Witness, do you know from your military career that usually in such cases where transfers took place to other camps, that later on one should the commander should be thanked for his assistance?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1036, "page_number": "", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "AYes, that is usual. I didn't know the camp commander personally and I still don't know who the man was.\nQWitness, on the 6th of March 1943, you answered to the 825 a letter of the 21st of November 1942.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1037, "page_number": "826", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "What was the value of this letter? Do you want to read this letter? This is Document 119, Your Honors, Document 262. That is just before the document we used right now of this letter of the witness to Himmler.\n(Document Book is given to witness.)\nA.Yes, I believe I know this letter. I believe it was presented to me in one of the previous sessions. This is the last letter that was sent out concerning that matter. I'd appreciate if you could ask me questions with respect to the contents.\nQ.Witness, is your letter to be understood in that way that you told Stabsarzt Dr. Rascher that he was released from the Luftwaffe?\nA.Yes, I had the intention to release him from the Luftwaffe. However, formally, I had to ask him because it was usual that only with the approval of the person to be released, the release could be signed or approved.\nQ.In this letter you state, \"If Rascher wants to build up his own research institute within the framework of the Waffen-SS, I have no objection. All research work within the field of aviation medicine-that is, altitude--moreover, is under my scientific supervision in my capacity as director of German aviation medicine. This institute would then be under the supervision of the Reich Physician of the SS, SS-Gruppenfuehrer Dr. Grawitz.\"\nWitness, does that mean that concerning this new institute, you are the chief concerning the scientific supervision?\nA.This should mean that I, in case there should be an institute by the SS, I would have the possibility -- concerning questions of air aviation medicine, concerning the many questions -- could have answered them. I wanted to show in this matter that there was a possibility for me concerning questions of the air aviation medicine that I could work here and assist them in their work in order that Obergruppenfuehrer Wolff could see in advance that even then he would not have to work under his own decisions; in other words, that this was a superfluous research work for me and that then it was to have the possibility concerning questions of practicality and of the necessity of the Luftwaffe, and to point out these necessities.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1038, "page_number": "827", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "May I continue?\nQ.Yes, please.\nA.Finally, I wanted to prevent that the questions of high altitude experiments which seemed sufficient to me should be planned any longer.\nQ.In the following paragraph, \"Momentarily, however, this work cannot be carried on because its continuation would require a low pressure chamber in which not only the altitude of the stratosphere, but also the stratospheric temperature can be established, but there is no such chamber available in Germany as yet.\" What did you mean by those remarks?\nA.I wanted to show my objection against these other experiments and I wanted to explain the technique. If I told that the technique was in no position whatsoever to solve these questions, then it is not necessary to touch these problems.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1039, "page_number": "828", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "There was not only my disapproval concerning the experiments but for the Luftwaffe further research work was not necessary. That furthermore, I wanted to prove that the technical part of it was also impossible.\nQ.Witness, may I ask something further, please?\nA.At the time I knew that a new institute, the Air Aviation Method Institute was to be established, and that one of them was being built at Berlin Tempelhof, and within the immediate surroundings of my own office, and that this research institute could not be built. The whole planning was cut short during the war. In reality, I knew in other words that this institute could not be completed, and I am telling him that here, and I availed myself of the opportunity in order to decline.\nQ.Witness, what happened after that concerning that part in this letter?\nA.In the middle of March Dr. Rascher came to see me. I had asked him to come because I had to have his statement that he wanted to get to the SS. Shall I go on with that concerning this conference.\nQ.Yes, what did you discuss with him during this conference?\nA.I cannot read it to you verbatim, of course, but the conference was on the following matter. I told him, in other words, if he wanted to go back to the SS as he applied for it, all right, and he answered, \"Yes, indeed, I would like to go back to the SS. I am a member -- a SS member.\" Whereupon I told him the reason for that I can state. I said, \"You think that Rascher, you would be able to be more independent, for you are vain,\" and he evaded a direct answer. The answer to my question directly, I will state he was very interested in the scientific work; and that later on he wanted to get into the university, and he would like to be the manager of the Institute. I laughed at that, and I told him \"I think there is plenty of time on that for you.\"", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1040, "page_number": "", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "\"Now what do you want to work on now,\" and he answered, \"That the high altitude questions would seem very interesting\". I kept kind of cross because I was sick and tired of his persistency about these high altitude questions, and I told him to forget that, and \"for the time being you are no longer concerned with this. Furthermore you are beginning to trouble me doing that, because I still have something to say on the question of air aviation medicine. Besides that 828 (a) all these questions I am talking about are on the condemnation of high altitude and freezing experiments, and they will be carried on by Dr. Ruff and Dr. Romberg.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1041, "page_number": "829", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "Please try to find another field for your activities.\"\nJUDGE MASMANNO:Doctor Bergold, may I interrupt you. Don't you think that we would proceed a little more expeditiously, and perhaps a little more logically if you propounded the questions, and had the witness answer directly to you, rather than to allow him all of this latitude, or of repeating in interminable conversations, some bits of which are relevant, but most of which have nothing to do so far as I can see with regard to the guilt or innocence of the defendant.\nDR. BERGOLD:You are quite right, Your Honor, at least at first sight. however, there is this: Rascher has made a report concerning this discussion with Hippke which the Prosecution has not submitted as yet, which, however, I presume will be submitted, and it is carried in his vest pocket; it was here a question of the credibility of the witness, and I want him to tell about this conversation, which through his entire attitude, is important, so Your Honors can have an uninfluence picture of the whole situation. This is a discussions, Your Honor, in which I could not possibly make any progress without leading questions. In other words, I can only ask general questions, and to let him talk as long as he wants to.\nMR. DIXON:Not as long as he wants to.\nDR. BERGOLD:No, not as long as he wants to. Everything he has said so far is very important, because Rascher reported the whole matter in a different way, but he said he is almost finished now.\nTHE WITNESS:Would you hear one more question in this connection. I think there was much concern about the whole question because I think there was conceit behind it, and I said that probably do you think you are getting promotion much easier in the SS because young people are always very anxious to get promoted, and I think that promotion in the Luftwaffe also was rather too fast than too slow.", "speakers": [ "THE WITNESS", "MR. DIXON", "DR. BERGOLD", "JUDGE MASMANNO" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1042, "page_number": "", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "I asked you officially, \"Do you want to be transferred to the SS,\" and he said, \"Yes, indeed\". Then I said, \"I shall apply for your transfer to the SS with the personnel division.\" I added a few more words 829 (a) which are irrelevant at this point.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1043, "page_number": "830", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "BY DR. BERGOLD:\nQ.Rascher stated that during those conferences, that you indicated you wanted to keep him all the time and at any price?\nA.No, there was no such question that I was to keep him. Rascher at all times to me was a very unrestful person for me, who, in his conceit, followed up his personal interest, and I wanted to release him personally, and I did not keep him.\nQ.Witness, during the end of 1943 you were dismissed from your job. What was the reasons as known to you?\nA.At the time no reasons were stated to me. I was simply told to resign my job on 31 December 1943, and I left without being thanked. After nine years of activity and no reasons why I was being released were given.\nTHE RESIDENT:Dr. Bergold, was not that 1943?\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes, indeed, Your Honor.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The witness said \"1942.\"\nTHEWITNESS: 1943, Your Honor.\nBY DR. BERGOLD:\nQ.Did you later on find out -- didn't you find out later on upon investigation that Himmler was behind your release?\nA.At the time I sort of reasoned why I was being released, and that I was not thanked for my work. I only could think that there was a campaign against me, and saw the only reason in my resistance against Himmler, and later on I concluded that must be the reason for my release.\nQ.Thank you. Witness, concerning the freezing experiments conferences, which took place in October 1942, did you report to the defendant?\nA.No, according to my opinion I did not report to the defendant. I reported to my immediate supervisor, to the chief of the Luftwehr, General Foerster, for the purpose of pointing out the practical views which could be used for the Luftwaffe.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "THE", "THE RESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1044, "page_number": "", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "Q.Concerning the general framework, I should like to ask a few more questions. Witness, when yon heard that Rascher was with the help of the -830a SS to carry out experiments together with Ruff and Romberg, did you know of any cruelties on part of Himmler, of the Gestapo, and of the SS?", "speakers": [ "Q." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1045, "page_number": "831", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "A.No, neither at that time nor later atrocities were known to me in the work of the SS. Only during the last days of the war, in other words when the collapse was imminent, I, as a civilian, was told that during the transfer from one camp to another horrible scenes resulted, which were due to the fact that during the transportation many people died.\nQ.Thank you. When at the time you agreed that further experiments for high altitude experiences should be carried out, in other words, in May 1941, were there applications for respective experiments at that time from the Luftwaffe?\nA.Yes, there was an application on the fact that there should be clarity as to the altitude to be reached when developing cabins of the pressurized planes.\nQ.Which division applied for this, or demanded these experiments?\nA.The technical development, so far as I can remember, from the technical office, as well as from the doctors who worked in these branches.\nQ.That was also Professor Stuckhold and Dr. Ruff?\nA.Yes.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1046, "page_number": "832", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "Q.It is known to you that at the time in May 1941 Ordnance Master General -- or rather, who was the Ordnance Master General in 1941? Was it the defendant or Udet?\nA.I cannot recall that because I do not remember the date at which Udet died because that is when the transfer happened.\nQ.If I tell you that that was in November 1941 that Udet died, would you remember then what office had ordered that?\nA.I believe this must have come from the office of Udet.\nQ.Didn't it strike you that Rascher, who was an officer of the Luftwaffe, always sent his report to Himmler only and that only Himmler gave the permission to report to you and that Himmler was the one that gave the decorations to his comrades, and not you?\nA.I didn't know of reports. I neither knew of reports from Rascher to Himmler, of which I just heard here during my captivity, or of anything concerning decorations of Rascher in this field.\nQ.Witness, on 20 May 1942, or early in June 1942, when Rascher was at your office and told you that he could not give you any further detailed reports because he had to have Himmler's permission in order to do that, weren't you surprised?\nA.I could understand that Himmler had to have these reports first for the very simple reason that the supervision of these experiments was in Himmler's hands and that Rascher was under his supervision. Of course, then I could understand that Himmler had the right to get the reports first.\nQ.Witness, were you not under the impression that Rascher felt rather like an SS member, or did he feel like a member of the Luftwaffe?\nA.I was under the impression that first of all he felt himself to be an SS member and only in second place a Luftwaffe member, because of the war.\nQ.Witness, I shall come back to the DVL. Is it correct that this institute was an incorporated organization of the Citizen Law?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1047, "page_number": "", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "Were Dr. Ruff and Dr. Romberg the sanitary officers, or were they civilian 832 a doctors?", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1048, "page_number": "833", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "A.They were both civilian doctors.\nQ.In other words, they did not have any disciplinary powers, did they?\nA.No. Dr. Ruff was a flight captain.\nQ.Apart from Dr. Ruff and Rascher, did anybody else report to you concerning these high altitude experiments? Did Dr. Weltz or Dr. Romberg, for instance?\nA.No. I received the written report via Milch which was addressed to Himmler.\nQ.Did you ever ask Milch for his permission on if and where you were to use the high altitude chamber or the low pressure chamber?\nA.No, I cannot remember that. Such questions were mentioned during the current oral reports. For instance, that the low pressure chamber was used in the Grossglockner Gebiet.\nQ.But you were the only one to make a decision, were you not?\nA.For the low pressure chambers which were under our direct supervision, yes; because if they were assigned to somebody else, then he had the supervision over them.\nQ.There is a statement here where it says that Milch had direct discussions with Himmler concerning these experiments, without asking the sanitary inspection, and apparently ordered the experiments. Have you heard of such a thing?\nA.No, I never received an order. I only remember the second request of Wolf, and that was more of a directive, and we considered it as a directive.\nQ.Between Himmler and Milch himself?\nA.No, I know nothing of the sort.\nQ.Then I shall refer to the letter of 25 November. Was there an objective doctor between Milch and Himmler as liaison man? Was there such a doctor?\nA.No, he wanted to show that way that he was against Milch's activities, and also against Holzlochner, and perhaps also against Weltz, and that he would rather have somebody else, another doctor rather than those mentioned.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1049, "page_number": "834", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "Q.Do you know that Dr. Ruff himself tried out altitudes up to 17 kilometers before the experiments had been started?\nA.Yes. In single experiments, yes.\nQ.Do you know Goering?\nA.Yes, I know him from sight.\nQ.Did you ever receive direct orders from him concerning these experiments, or what kind of official business did you have with him?\nA.I was never up for an oral report before Goering, in spite of my attempts. Perhaps the reason was that Goering did not like me, which I could realize from the fact that there were many little things. He always disregarded me. Only once was I asked to come and see him during my whole activity, but I believe that this has no bearing on the case.\nQ.It has nothing to do with the experiments?\nA.It has nothing to do with the experiments, and at that time I did not ever see Goering, although I asked to. He was not very nice to me, and I understood that he did not want to have anything to do with me.\nQ.Witness, within the frame of the sea-distress experiments, there were also dry freezing experiments, in which naked people were put outside all night long in winter. Did such experiments have anything to do with sea-distress experiments?\nA.No. Sea-distress only referred to exposure to cold water in normal airman's suit. I never heard anything concerning these other experiments; I heard about them here for the first time.\nQ.You never gave an order to carry out these experiments?\nA.No. This would not have touched my field of work or activity anyway.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1050, "page_number": "835", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "Q.Then, I have a last question to you. Witness, how was your official position to the defendant? Did it rest on mutual trust or distrust?\nA.I had a feeling of trust for the defendant, because he was the man who gave me the best support in all my questions and who could understand me best.\nDR. BERGOLD:I am through with the witness, and he is now at the disposal of the Prosecution for cross examination.\nMR. DENNY:Your Honors; I wonder if we could have a few moments' recess before I start on cross examination?\nTHE PRESIDENT:You would like to?\nMR. DENNY:Could we, if Your Honors please?\nTHE PRESIDENT:Ten minutes?\nMR. DENNY:Yes, sir.\nTHE MARSHALL:This Tribunal, is recessed for ten minutes.\n(A recess was taken)", "speakers": [ "Q.", "THE MARSHALL", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "MR. DENNY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1051, "page_number": "836", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "THE MARSHAL:All persons please take your seats. All persons, rise. Tribunal No. II is again in session.\nCROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. DENNEY:\nQ.Witness, where did you study medicine?\nA.I studied medicine at Berlin, at the Berlin University, as a member of the Kaiser William Academy.\nQ.When did you start practicing medicine?\nA.In 1913.\nQ.You've heard of Hippocrates?\nA.I did not understand the question, Your Honor. Yes, I've heard of Hippocrates. May I add something to that?\nQ.No. Answer my questions. Did you take the Hippocratic Oath?\nA.Yes; I know the Oath of Hippocrates.\nQ.Witness, answer the question. Did you take the Hippocratic Oath?\nA.According to my opinion, I did not have to swear to it. I did not take the oath.\nQ.You did not take it?\nA.I don't think so.\nQ.Are you familiar with its principles?\nA.Yes, indeed.\nQ.Do you believe that medicine should be practiced in accordance with those principles?\nA.Yes; I even supported that, with my personal power. I had a report and I helped the Professor Buechner during the war concerning a lecture on the Oath of Hypocrates, on this oath. Later on he had difficulties because of that. However, I saw to it that no trouble arose for him. That concerned -\nQ.All right, witness; I'm not interested in you and Professor Buechner. The less speeches we have from you, the faster we'll get along. You answer the questions that I ask you; do you understand me?\nA.Yes, indeed.\nQ.Are you familiar with that portion of the Hippocratic Oath which says:", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "A.", "Q." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1052, "page_number": "837", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "\"I will follow that system of regimen which, according to my ability and judgment, I consider for the benefit of my patients, and abstain from whatever is deleterious and mischievous\"? You know that appears in the Hippocratic Oath?\nA.Yes, -\nQ.That is enough. You've said that the Luftwaffe doctors always performed experiments on themselves; that you had performed experiments on yourself?\nA.Yes, I carried out experiments on myself too.\nQ.And some of the doctors in the Luftwaffe who were under you experimented on themselves, you told the Tribunal?\nA.Yes; that is correct.\nQ.Did you ever hear of Dr. Rascher, Dr. Ruff, or any other Luftwaffe doctor getting in a tank of cold water and staying in it for three hours?\nA.No. I've never heard about that, and I don't believe they did that, either.\nQ.I'm quite certain they didn't too. You were very concerned, early in 1941 when you first heard about these medical experiments, particularly those having to do with altitude and freezing? Just answer the question. You were concerned; you were a doctor, and it bothered you; you thought someone might die; you thought that someone might die in these experiments?\nA.Yes. Yes; I saw the danger that that could happen.\nQ.You wouldn't consent to them right off, would you?\nA.Not right from the beginning, because of my natural feeling against these experiments.\nQ.Yes; it's not nice to kill people.\nA.There was no question of killing people, but, according to my principles, I wanted to save lives, Your Honor, and not kill them.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1053, "page_number": "838", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "Q.Don't refer to me as \"Your Honor\". Well, if there wasn't any question of killing people, why did you look for concentration camp inmates from Dachau for your experiments? You rejected the soldiers because they had to work in the fields that had to do with things purely military. You wouldn't take the civilians because you were afraid that some information might get out about them, and you wouldn't get monkeys but you would take concentration camp inmates.\n(No response)\nQ.But you would take concentration camp inmates, wouldn't you?\n(No response)\nQ.Just answer the question.\nA.No. I did not consider them as concentration camp inmates. I considered them as people who had been condemned to death, who in this case had been given a chance to prove their loyalty to the Reich and thus given an opportunity to save their lives. It was a great experience for these people to do something for their Fatherland since they could not do anything on the front to do something at home. But not with the idea to die but to be saved. We never had a case of death. Why should there be a death now?\nQ.Now, I assume that none of the doctors ever died and the witness Neff's testimony was to the effect that several of the experimental subjects died.\nA.But this is quite a different instance or experiment.\nQ.Don't make speeches. You made speeches for several hours and I don't propose to listen to any of them. In answer to a question by Dr. Bergold you stated that when you first discussed the matter of the experiments with the defendant in August of 1942, which you said was the first time you ever talked to him about that, he expressed considerable interest in the cold water experiments, that he had known nothing about them, and that you went into them in some detail because you were wanting to apprise him of it and because apparently from what you gathered by talking to the defendant he had never had any information on these experiments prior to the time of your conversation. Do you recall that?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1054, "page_number": "", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "A.Yes, I do remember that we discussed this meeting of the 31 August at the last session. Yes, indeed.\nQ.And is that your recollection of what you told the Court at that time 838-A", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1055, "page_number": "839", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "A.This complex had been discussed long ago and now again. And, therefore, it is very difficult for me to remember all of the details, but the whole complex was brought up again. I can't tell it to you in detail.\nQ.Well, I will read your testimony to you to refresh your recollection.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Which trial?\nMR. DENNEY:In Dr. Bergold's examination it appears at page 810 of the records of February 8th, in Friday's testimony: \"Milch then asked me what sort of experiments these were. I answered, 'High altitude experiments and freezing experiments.' He then asked what the term 'freezing' meant. I was prepared for that question.\"\nTHE WITNESS:May I correct that? I didn't mean freezing experiments but chilling experiments. This is something different than freezing experiments. Here it says \"chilling.\"\nMR. DENNEY:Here it says \"freezing.\" \"He then asked what the term 'freezing' meant. I was prepared for that question because it was a new term; even among medical men it wasn't often used.\"\nDR. BERGOLD:Concerning that, I want to point out that the translation is never exact. He always say \"freezing\" for the word \"cold\", and the German word \"cold\" is a lower temperature than the normal temperature. There is an extremely radical difference between the two terms. One cannot use both terms \"chilling\" and \"freezing\" because they lack clarity, and the statement of the witness will not be exact.\nTHE WITNESS:In other words they were always speaking about the \"chilling\" and that is the only term that is new and for that reason I have to explain to you what it means. The word \"cold\" is not new and therefore there should not be an explanation for it.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The difference between \"chilling\" and \"freezing\" is a matter of degrees. I don't think there is any misunderstanding. Let us call it \"chilling\" but if pursued long enough it results in \"freezing.\"\nTHE WITNESS:No, is something entirely different because through cold there is a freezing of the vessels which never takes place here.", "speakers": [ "THE WITNESS", "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1056, "page_number": "", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "The extreme temperature remains, no matter how cold it is, as the temperature of the skin remains 15 - 16 degrees.\n839-A the inside of the body, that remains in the blood, is about 30 degrees instead of about 15 or 16.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1057, "page_number": "840", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "In other words there will never be a freezing which actually takes place and, therefore, they are two different things.\nCROSS EXAMINATION (continued) BY MR. DENNEY:\nQ.In any event, you were talking about the cold water experiments?\nA.Yes, I was.\nQ.This has to do with pilots who were compelled to bail out in the sea?\nA.Yes, who had crashed.\nQ.Just answer the question.\nA.Yes.\nQ.You weren't trying to indicate to the Court that this is the first time that the defendant ever knew anything about the problem of pilots bailing out in the cold water?\nA.No.\nQ.He knew about this before, didn't he?\nA.He knew about the rescueing of pilots at sea prior to this conversation.\nQ.Did you know that the defendant wrote a letter to Wolf mentioning cold water experiments as early as in May of 1942; that's Obergruppenfuehrer SS?\nA.I had given him a note stating that such experiments would be prepared, on 20th of August, when he asked me for those notes.\nQ.So he could have known considerably about these experiments, much earlier than in August of 1942?\nA.In reference to the point of time, yes, if he had read those notes.\nQ.At least you submitted them to him?\nA.Yes, I did.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1058, "page_number": "841", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "QHave you heard of the term \"shock\" in connection with medicine?\nAShock? Yes. I have heard the term \"shock\" and it is known to me.\nQShell-shock, bombing shock?\nAYes, this is clearly a medical term to me.\nQShock that happens to any one after they had an accident?\nAYes.\nQSuch as a man hit over the head?\nAYes. We have heard a lot of that, and many officers worked on that and there was a conference concerning shock and collapse.\nQAbout this conversation that you had with Dr. Rascher -- which took place some time in March of 1943 -- the document which Dr. Bergold referred to as being in my vest pocket, and which he has through the courtesy of Tribunal I; where is Rascher?\nAWhere is Rascher?\nQWhere is Rascher?\nAI don't know. I have never seen Rascher since that date.\nQYou don't know what happened to him?\nAI heard that he was dead.\nQSo that any version that we get, that is, from his side of the conversation will of necessity have to come from the record.\nAI think so; as he is dead, I don't believe he could appear as a witness.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Mr. Denny, we will interrupt for a recess now; it is Judge Mussmano's tea time, and we will recess for ten minutes.", "speakers": [ "A", "THE PRESIDENT", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1059, "page_number": "842", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "THE MARSHAL:All persons in the Court will please find their seats. Tribunal No. 2 is again in session.\nBY MR. DENNEY:\nQ.Before recess we were talking about a letter from Rascher to Dr. Rudolf Brandt, SS Obersturmbannfuehrer, dated 14 March 1943. You have seen this letter since you have been here?\nA.That letter has been discussed several times and the fact that such a letter was written, I have not seen it and studied it in detail.\nQ.You talked with counsel in the medical case upstairs?\nA.Yes, it was there that the letter was mentioned.\nQ.You have told the Court about your version of the meeting you had with Rascher. I understand that we must offer our exhibits when we get around to the rebuttal side so we can mark this exhibit 128. This is a letter from Dr. Rascher to Rudolf Brandt, 14 March 1943:\n\"Dear Obersturmbannfuhrer:\n\"On 12 March I was ordered to a conference with Generaloberstabsarzt Professor Dr. Hippke. The inspector was extremely friendly, I had the impression that the whole affair was painful to him. For your information I enclose a short description of the conversation. This description is by no means a complete one despite the fact that I took down notes immediately after the conference. I would like to emphasize the inspector's unusual amiability and caution in all expressions concerning the SS.\n\"May I respectfully ask you to inform the Reichsfuhrer SS of the report in as far as this appears necessary to you.\n\"May I also ask you, if you do not mind, to inform Hauptsturmfuehrer Heckenstaller since as far as I know he worked on my transfer by order of Obergruppenfuehrer Self.\n\"With obedient regards and Heil Hitler Your most grateful Sigmund Rascher\" On the next page, we have the same date.", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "A.", "Q." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1060, "page_number": "843", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "\"Report on the conference between Generaloberstabsarzt Professor Doctor Hippke and Stabsarzt Dr. Rascher on 12 March 1943 in Berlin.\n\"The course of the discussion can be described in its meaning only, not literally, since the conference lasted for 3/4 of an hour:\n\"Very friendly welcome by Professor Hippke. Immediately after that the question, who desired the transfer to the Waffen- SS and who suggested it.\n\"Rascher: Suggested and desired by the Reichsfuehrer-SS as well as by myself. I, too, have submitted a transfer request through the official Luftwaffe channels.\n\"Hippke: So then it is true. Why do you really want to leave the Luftwaffe? I give you every opportunity to work in the scientific field, and with us you will be backed by the solidarity of the entire medical officer's corps of the Luftwaffe. Beside we have the necessary experience in treating medical problems connected with aviation. The SS cannot possibly be interested in these questions.\n\"Rascher: But the Reichsfuehrer-SS does not desire at all to have those tasks carried out for the benefit of the SS alone, he expressed himself to that effect that the tasks shall be accomplished and the results shall be really made available to all interested agencies in the most rapid way.\n\"Hippke: We can maintain this connection with the SS also if you stay with the Luftwaffe. I hereby request you to stay with the medical corps of the Luftwaffe.\n\"Rascher: I beg to submit respectfully that inasfar as I am concerned, the decision about this has already been taken.\n\"Hippke: But in this case you must realize that the medical officers' corps of the Luftwaffe will no longer solidly back you up and that you have to expect scientific enmities and perhaps even a bitter fight in the scientific field with individual gentlemen, especially reservists, who brought along from private life their scientific manners.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1061, "page_number": "844", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "But even if you no longer belong to my officers, you will always have my full support. I wish that even later on we will continue to work together. For instance I would like to see that you carry out together with Romberg the rescue from the highest altitudes and that you go even higher than 21,000 meters. For this case some two-stage device should be procured some way for the low-pressure car. Furthermore, I would desire that in your experiments on human beings you would combine the altitude experiments with the cold experiments.\n\"Rascher: I proposed this to you already in July of last year and the Reichsfuehrer SS for his part has also submitted this proposal to Marshal Milch. Unfortunately nothing resulted from intervention so far.\n\"Hippke: How embarrassing this question must have escaped my notice at that time (he takes down some notes) as already said you see there are numerous problems and you are going to be really overburdened with scientific matters. I do not let you go readily and this I emphasize again. Would you not think it over again for four weeks?\n\"Rascher: For this it was too late, I asked for my part to be transferred.\n\"Hippke: This could be cancelled. I call your attention to the fact that with the Luftwaffe, I can offer you very good possibilities for your promotion. You do not yet know your advancement with the SS, do you already know in which capacity you are going to be taken over? You are now Hauptsturmfuehrer, I suppose?\n\"Rascher: I do not know how I am going to be taken over, but I have full confidence in my future with the SS where efficiency is what matters.\n\"Hippke: But this is certainly the case with us too, think it over whether you go, I request you again to stay here.\n\"Rascher: When I told Hippke during the further course of the conversation how the work is done at my place, he was very surprised and said, 'Well, you built up an independent institute for yourself and so you are Head of the Institute.'", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1062, "page_number": "845", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "\"Hippke mentioned also that Gruppenfuehrer Grawitz did not want to furnish a substitute for me, no, nobody at all, not to speak of a medical officer trained in scientific matters.\n\"In conclusion Professor Doctor Hippke said, well, if you persist in your decision I ask you then to report to me before leaving when you are transferred. Most friendly dismissal.\n\"Postscript: Professor Hippke offered me the possibility of publishing the results hitherto obtained in a Luftwaffe periodical.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1063, "page_number": "846", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "It was certainly not clear whether the SS could make accessible to me a periodical in which I could publish. He was afraid I could suffer from the competition between physicians of the Luftwaffe and SS physicians.\n\"I would like to mention that in connection with hostility to be expected on the part of genuine Luftwaffe physicians Professor Hippke said, 'In this case you have of course the SS behind you, and this is a powerful factor.'\" This is signed by Sigmund Rascher.\nIt does not sound as if you were anxious to get rid of Rascher.\nAMay I enter into a discussion of the individual points brought out here?\nQI think you said enough on direct examination about it. I do not see why we have to go into it now. The document speaks for itself.\nAThe document that I see now is merely a combination of the talk at my place and the conversation outside with the experts. It was all consolidated here. The conversation did not last anywhere near as long as it is here set down. There is no question of my wanting to hold him for the Luftwaffe. I was glad to get rid of him because we had difficulties with him because of his continual wishes to carry on experiments. For that reason we did not want him. I must mention one thing in particular. He says here something about an independent institute being built up with Rascher as head of it. This institute was ordered by Himmler in October. In other words, it was long after this discussion. Rascher then became head of it.. From a purely objective point of view, this could not be true. It could not be true that I said this from the start. I could not have stated it. I also mentioned that there was a discussion of an institute, but in a different context. It was a question of the future. I mentioned the idea that he could not become the leader of the institute in his early years. That was the real context. In other words, this is not true. What is set down here is not true. There was possibility of its being true, because the institute was ordered in autumn of 1943 by Himmler.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1064, "page_number": "", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "This discussion took place in March of 1943. In other words, these were future plans which he here mentions as facts. However, they were not facts.\n846-A Then, there is one other point.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1065, "page_number": "847", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "He reconstructed this one point. I mentioned that we were to make supplementary experiments in order to make clear to him that he would play no role, but that we would be doing it. He pretends that he was to be used here. This question of 21 kilometers was brought up. At that time we were not in a position to rise about 21 kilometers. We did not have the apparatus, so that is also false. I can say as regards these individual points that this must be a letter that is here under discussion. That could have been the case; if it were the letter from Wolfe which was written in November to Milch, but had been answered by me a few days previous, that is probably what he is referring to, because in the meantime he at least acknowledged the answer. That is the possibility I see.\nQWhen did you first get the letter from Milch which was written to him by Wolfe regarding Rascher's transfer?\nAI would say that was in February.\nQWhen in February?\nAI saw that from -\nQAll you have to do is give me a date. When in February did you get the letter?\nAIt must have been the last days of February.\nQAll right, Witness. Just answer the question. I am not interested in any speeches you may have to make. You were very anxious to get rid of Rascher. Is that right?\nAHe made too much trouble and he was too vain.\nQYou wanted to get rid of him?\nAFor scientific reasons.\nQYou wanted to get rid of him?\nAYes. I wanted to get rid of him.\nQYou received a letter from Wolfe to Milch in February?\nAYes. I received a letter and I answered that I must first hear what Rascher had to say. Then I was willing to release him.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1066, "page_number": "848", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "QThen on March 6, you wrote saying he could go?\nAThat was not the 6th. That was the date of my answers to Wolff. It was about the middle of March.\nQDo you know a Doctor Daniel?\nAI believe there is an \"s\" at the end of his name, Daniels.\nQDaniels?\nAHe was a physician under me.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1067, "page_number": "849", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "QDid Dr. Rascher work for him?\nAI knew of no connection between Daniels and Rascher.\nQBut you know all about what Rascher had been doing prior to the time you let him go?\nANo, Unfortunately, I know nothing of it. I trusted him. I had confidence that the work was being done according to my policy. Otherwise I should have been only too happy to interfere. I am most unhappy that I did not know of it.\nQYou never told Doctor Daniels that Rascher's experiments ought to be stopped?\nATell me more precisely what Daniels' connection was with this?\nQDo you recall telling Doctor Daniels that Rascher's experiments ought to be stopped?\nANo. I cannot remember any connection with Doctor Daniels.\nQDid you know a man named Sievers, \"Standartenfuehrer Sievers,\" S-i-e-v-e-r-s?\nAI have just found out about him, from the documents; I found out that he was a Standartenfuehrer who, as far as I know, was the liason man with the SS in Munich. But previously, I had known nothing of him personally, nor had I even known his name.\nQDid you ever hear of the Ahnenerbe Society?\nAI knew that there was anAhnenerbe Society. I knew that it represented the party in all questions of that nature. But since I had as little to do as possible with party matters because they were alien to me, and I believed that during the war, we soldiers had other tasks. For this reason I did not concern myself with these problems, but I do know the concept or the term, \"Ahnenerbe.\"\nQI have here a memorandum which Doctor Sievers made on 4 February 1943. If Your Honors please, we will give this the number, 129. It is Document No. 238. It is dated \"Berlin-Dahlem, 4 February 1943, Secret, Ahnenerbe, Reich Business Manager.\" I might say that Wolfram Sievers who is the author of this document was the business manager, a Standartenfue hrer in the SS, and presently upstairs.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1068, "page_number": "850", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "\"Subject: SS-Hauptsturmfuehrer Stabsarzt Dr. Rascher.\n\"Out letter of 12-1-43 to SS-Obergruppenfuehrer and General of Waffen-SS, Wolff.\n\"File Number 19/10/43g.\n\"Conversation on 29-1-43 with SS-Oberstrumbannfuehrer Dr. Brandt.\n\"The Chief of the Luftwaffe Medical Service Generaloberstabsarzt Professor Dr. Hippke asked the SS-Hauptsturmfuehrer Dr. Rascher through his superior, Oberfeldarzt Doctor Daniels, for an immediate report about what he had been working on since he had been made available for new assignment. The Oberfeldarzt, Dr. Daniels, permitted SS-Hauptsturmfuehrer Doctor Rascher to continue his experiments in Dachau. I suggested that SSHauptsturmfuehrer Doctor Rascher give a report approximately like this:\n\"'I am continuing the experiments which were assigned to me by the Reichsfuehrer SS. I considered my position as the first stop to the transfer to the Waffen-SS which was discussed by the Reichsfuehrer-SS and General Field Marshal Milch.'", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1069, "page_number": "851", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "\"As I learned (Dr. Rascher knows nothing about this) Generaloberstabsarzt Professor Hippke said over the telephone (so that he probably could not be pinned down)-\nThey probably had the same trouble in those days.\n\"--when requesting the report; 'Rascher's experiments ought to be stopped now. It is impossible to go on like that. Now we will remove him very quickly to the East.' As SS-Hauptsturmfuehrer Dr. Rascher cannot continue his experiments at Dachau for the time being for well-known reasons it was agreed that he should go on 7 February 1943 to SS-Sturmfuehrer Professor Dr. Pfannenstiel in Marburg. Due to the interference of Generaloberstabarzt Professor Doctor Hippke the process of admittance has become doubtful.\n\"1. Records.\n\"2. SS-Obersturmbannfuehrer Dr. R. Brandt.\n\"Personal Staff RESS with the request that measures be taken on the basis of the situation described in my letter of 12.1.43.\nSig. \"Sievers \"SS-Standartenfuehrer.\"\nYou can see there is a variance here.\nAOberfeldarzt Daniels was a medical officer in the staff to which Dr. Rascher belonged. There must have been discussions there. I myself, knew that after the report from Holzloehner and Finke, that Rascher was done with his experiments at the beginning of October. So at the time the conference took place in Nurnberg, all the experiments were concluded.\nIf there is mention here of subsequent experiments, then I know nothing about it because so far as I know, there were no further experiments. That I said at this time that experiments should be carried out only insofar as they were needed, and that can be substantiated. I did not give any instructions that he be transferred to the East. This is not the case because I know of no such plan to transfer him to the east. If that took place, it must have been a plan on the part of the Luftgau or perhaps by my personnel deputy who took care of such questions.", "speakers": [ "A" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1070, "page_number": "", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "At any rate, it did not come to me, nor did I know anything about going to Marburg in connection with Pfannenstiel. That was entirely 851-A unknown to me.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1071, "page_number": "852", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "But I see clearly that my dislike of this matter was used to block this matter.\nQThe East was the Russian front at that time, was it not?\nAThe east was the Russian front which at that time was in particular danger. May I add that I believe I was in East at that time, because when I wrote the letter to Himmler, I had just returned. This must be around the same time, so I knew nothing of the events that took place at this time, nor could I have been informed of them.\nQWhen were the experiments concluded so far as you know?\nAIn October.\nQWhat was the date? The Meeting was on the 27th or 28th, I believe here in Nuernberg?\nAUnder any event, the first half of October.\nQThe first half?\nAI should say the 10th of October.After being informed of the Holzloehner report, I believe that was the deadline for the experiments, the 10th of October, 1942. They must have been done by then or a few days previously.\nQIn your letter of October 8, 1942 to Himmler, Document Number 289, Exhibit Number 95, you said there, \"Sub-freezing experiments in another direction are in part still being made at Dachau.\"\nAMay I see that letter? I believe the first refers to\nDR. BERGOLD:Which Exhibit number is that?\nMR. DENNEY:Exhibit Number 95. That is at Page 33 of Your Honors' Document Book 5A.\nQYou wrote the letter, did you not?\nAYes. I did write the letter. I can tell you about it immediately, if you wish.", "speakers": [ "A", "DR. BERGOLD", "MR. DENNEY", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1072, "page_number": "", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "I ask your permission to do so.\nAThe letter concerns the results of the high-altitude experiments. In the next to the last paragraph is the first mention of anything new. There the subject changes to sub-freezing experiments. That was the other direction that was 852 a meant here in contradistinction of the altitude experiments.", "speakers": [ "A" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1073, "page_number": "853", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "AThese experiments were still going on because on the 10th of October I could not yet know that they had already been concluded. As a matter of fact, they were concluded simultaneously, more or less. At that time, I did not know that, otherwise I should have mentioned it, and I should not have had to write another letter of thanks to Himmler in February.", "speakers": [ "A" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1074, "page_number": "854", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "QDo you recall being interrogated by Dr. Amexander of the American Prosecution Staff here in Nurnberg?\nAYes. DoctorAlexander interrogated me.\nQDo you recall that you suggested that a pathologist be assigned to the freezing experiments? Do you recall it? Just answer whether or not you recall it.\nAThe answer is yes.\nQDid you ask that a pathologist be assigned to altitude experiments?\nANo. Only with the sub-freezing experiments.\nQYou suggested freezing experiments, but not altitude experiments?\nAI dispensed with the high-altitude experiments because they were not dangerous enough to make the use of a pathologist necessary.\nQThey were dangerous enough when you first considered them in 1941, so you racked your soul to determine whether or not they ought to go on. Finally, you were so reluctant you thought it would be better for the soldiers of the Wehrmacht if some poor people from Dachau, who had been condemned to death could be experimented upon. You thought there might be deaths there. Why did you have a pathologist assigned to freezing experiments?\nABecause I said to myself in the case of the freezing experiments, it was possible that one of the experimental subjects might die. I called upon a pathologist because Dr. Holzloebner did not consider the danger so great. He did not need a pathologist. He wanted Dr. Finke as his assistant. The pathologist from Munich, Dr. Singer, the pathologist I had chosen was therefore not called in.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1075, "page_number": "855", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "QI am sorry, Your Honor, I have lost my place here. Do you remember the admonition that you gave following the talk that you had in the Summer 1941 to Kotenhoff, and other of whom I believe one or two of them were Zueckner and Weltz, I believe, and met them in a restaurant in Munich; do you remember telling them, \"Please, children go carefully,\"?\nAYes. I said that at the conclusion \"Children go carefully,\" because I was interested in seeing to it that no fatalities occurred in the experiments. We had theretofore had none, and I wanted none in the future.\nQAll the experiments were not dangerous, so why was there any reason for you to be concerned whether fatalities occurred?\nAIn such experiments accidents can happen. You mentioned previously, shock. There are people who have a shock reaction precisely under conditions of lack of oxygen, I menion them all as fainting types, and there could be such a person in these experiments who would be then likely to die. From this, therefore, we had no fatalities, consequently it was very important to me to be as careful as possible to avoid fatalities. I also believed in my case of freezing experiments, that by very careful dosing fatalities could have been avoided.\nQSo you had a pathologist assigned in the freezing experiment, but you did not have any assigned in the altitude experiment?\nAAlso I did not appoint a pathologist for the freezing experiments; he was suggested to me but was not taken into the experimental group.\nDo you recall your letter of 21 November -- or rather the letter from Wolf to Milch, dated 21 November 1942? We talked about that.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1076, "page_number": "", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "Yes, I remember this letter. I answered it in March.\nQThat is right. Do you recall seeing in there that Wolf said to the defendant, \"We are able to perform this work with special effect because the Reichsfuehrer SS assumes personal responsibility 855 a for these experiments on our Socials and Criminals deserving deaths from the concentration camps?", "speakers": [ "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1077, "page_number": "856", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "AOn this occasion at that time it was my conviction that the strict conditions that I had laid down were being observed, because both Holzloebner and Hans Rascher had obliged themselves to do so. I had such confidence in these physicians, particularly in Holzloebner, who was an university professor at Kiel, and had a very high reputation as a serious researcher, that I relied on his word that all my strict policies were being carried out. Now to be sure when I had seen this letter here, I am greatly surprised regarding the concept of a Social and a Criminal, because of that one fact, we had found out about these terrible crimes and only then did we associate the word \"concentration camp\" with crimes. At that time that was not then the case, because Rascher told me explicitly that civilian criminals who were interned there were sentenced to death and only such persons would be chosen.\nQ Did you ever go to a concentration camp?\nA No, I never visited a concentration camp, and regarding a concentration camp in detail, there was no discussion at my office. I was mostly interested --\nQDid you know who were being sent to concentration camps? You knew that Dachau existed?\nA Yes.\nQYou knew that Oranienburg existed?\nAOranienburg?\nQThat was an old one.\nANo, I did not know Oranienburg.\nQYou did not know about Oranienburg?\nANo.\nQJust answer the question yes or no?", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1078, "page_number": "", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "ANo.\nQDid you know about Buchenwald?\nANo.\n856 a", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1079, "page_number": "857", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "QBelsen?\nA No.\nQAuschwitz?\nANo.\nQThe only one you knew about was Dachau?\nANo. I knew besides Dachau there were other concentration camps.\nQHow many others do you think there were?\nAI assumed that there were at least ten. Even if only for the sake of concentrating of those who had been taken prisoners, there was a great group of those who were Jews.\nQYou knew they were taking Jews, for instance?\nAWhere they were, I did not know. I said to myself that their number was so great that they must be assembled into camps. I didn't know who was in Dachau, whether any Jews there at all. I knew of Rascher, that there were some civilian criminals there, and I assumed that political prisoners were much more important to the Party than other criminals, so they were in prisons rather than in concentration camps, but that in these concentration camps less important prisoners would be kept.\nQOn last Friday, you were asked the question by Dr. Bergold, when he was talking about your conversation with Rascher, that you had in May 1941, and you concluded a reasonably short answer thereto, saying that final decision on this question remained open at that time, \"because I was against such experiments under this limitation\", the limitation, of course, being the prisoners under sentence of death, \"I have so much in opposition that I could not make up my mind to say yes.\"", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1080, "page_number": "858", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "And then Dr. Bergold asked you this, \"Did you report to your superior officer, Ruedel, or Herr Milch, on this conversation with Rascher?\" and then you said, \"No, not at that time, but only a little later.\" Now, when was that? When was a \"little later\" after May 1941?\nA.I reported only afterwards on the basis of a discussion with Weltz and with Kotenhoff in Munich. Only when I had come to the conclusion that such experiments with this limitation could be carried out, then the whole plan took a more reality what theretofore had only been preliminary discussions. I had said, \"Yes, you can with this narrow limitation carry on these experiments.\" Only then did I report. In other words, it can only have been after the summer, because in the summer my trip to Munich took place and the discussion in the so-called Freysingpalais.\nQ.You went to Munich in the summer of 1941 to talk with Buechner, Weltz and Kotenhoff, and then after that you reported to Milch?\nA.Yes, only then did I report further to Milch.\nQ.Just answer the question yes or no. Dr. Bergold a little later on Friday asked you that? I am trying to find out what you told, and will you stop giving all this voluntary information. You had a chance to say everything you wanted to about it.\nDR. BERGOLD:Your Honors, I must object. The witness must have the right to answer the question with a more than just answer yes or no. He was asked whether he had reported to Milch. In Germany the cross examination is unusual. No one here is familiar with it, and no one in Germany knows that a question should be answered with a \"no\", and there is a one-hundred per cent certainty in itself that our witness is to give a correct answer here, and that is to be taken into consideration from a psychological point of view here. We are not in America. We are examining German witnesses.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1081, "page_number": "859", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "THE PRESIDENT:The Tribunal will admonish the witness to answer the questions as simply as possible, and the Tribunal also admonishes Mr. Denney to watch his rising blood pressure.\nMR. DENNEY:Mr. Denney apologizes to the Tribunal for the rising blood pressure.\nBY MR. DENNEY:\nQThe report on the experiments which were made in Nurnberg in October 1942 was put out under your direction, was it not?", "speakers": [ "MR. DENNEY", "THE PRESIDENT", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1082, "page_number": "860", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "A.In the year 1943, the report was drawn up in my office. By the middle of February, it was not yet ready when I wrote to Himmler.\nQ.On the printed report it states, \"Published by the Medical Service of the Luftwaffe and Sponsored by the Medical Service of the Luftwaffe.\"\nA.Under my direction, on my responsibility, the report -- the meeting was held.\nMR. DENNEY:This is DocumentNO-288, which will bear the Exhibit No. 130. Letter dated 6 November 1942, signed by Sievers. He writes, \"To the Reich Business Manager of the Ahnenerbe.\" And it has to do with the transfer of Dr. Rascher to the Waffen-SS.\n\"The various experiments conducted by Dr. Rascher in Dachau in connection with the 'Ahnenerbe' show that:\n\"1) the fact that he has to be detailed from the Luftwaffe in each instance;\n\"2) the fact that, in addition, the assistance of the Luftwaffe has to be requested \"cause increasing difficulties.\nIt can really be called a regular tug of war, through which, it is true, we have so far always succeeded in carrying out the experiments ordered by the Reichsfuehrer-SS. Recent developments show, however, that this situation is unbearable, and it appears more and more that the competent offices of the Luftwaffe do not like the experiments, the importance of which is at once obvious, to be carried out by the SS. This attitude appears clearly in the letter of 10 October 1942 from the Chief of the Medical Service of the Luftwaffe, Professor Dr. Hippke, to the Reichsfuehrer-SS. Further evidence: During the conference, 'Hardships of the Sea and Winter' of the 26 and 27 October 1942 in Nurnberg, the report was delivered mainly by the Stabsarzt of the Luftwaffe, Professor Dr. Holzlohner, who was absolutely opposed to human experiments, but who tried to claim for himself the credit for the SS experiments in Dachau.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1083, "page_number": "", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "\"The chief of the German Experimental Institute for Aviation Research (that's the DVL), Captain Dr. Ruff, delivered the report on the high altitude experiments before the German Academy for Aviation Research on 6 November 1942 860 A 'because persons who were not members of the Academy could not report' and 'in order to make up for the poor report given at General Field Marshal Milch's.'\"As has already been demonstrated, new questions continuously arise from the experiments carried out so far by Dr. Rascher, the solution of which is in the interests first of the conduct of the war, and then of the nation's health in general.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1084, "page_number": "861", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "In order to carry out those experiments free from all hindering influences, it would be best to transfer Stabsarzt Dr. Rascher to the Waffen-SS, to put him in the Staff Department of the Waffen-SS with the Personal Staff of the Reichsfuehrer-SS, and to assign him to the Institute for Military Scientific Research.\"\nSigned: Sievers; dated: Berlin, 6 November 1942.\nBY JUDGE PHILLIPS:\nQ.Witness, the Tribunal understood you to say that only condemned prisoners, that is, those who were condemned to death were used in any of these experiments at Dachau, is that correct?\nA.Yes.\nQ.Did you ever go to Dachau and see what subjects they were using for these experiments?\nA.No, I did not do that myself because both the leaders of the experiments and Rascher, so far as I knew then, were sticking to their obligations in this regard. The situation in which I might have interfered, at the time at which I might have, was only a maximum of three weeks, because the letter to extend these experiments--the letter to Wolff--was written at the end of April, and by the middle of May, Ruff had already told me that the experiments were over. Consequently, I had only a period of roughly three weeks, but I did not go there during that time, nor did I hold it to be necessary since I thought that these experiments were not all dangerous, so there was nothing new about them.\nQ.I understood you to say that these prisoners were promised to be pardoned or their lives saved if they went into these experiments voluntarily", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1085, "page_number": "862", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "AYes, that was one of the basic conditions.\nQWere any of then ever pardoned?\nAYes. It was told me. How many, I don't know, but it was told me that the prisoners were pardoned and were permitted to take service on the front -- something which they wanted particularly to do. My collaborators told me that.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1086, "page_number": "863", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "I, myself, was never in Dachau.\nQ.Do you know the names of any prisoners who were pardoned, who went through any of these experiments?\nA.No, I don't. Wolff would probably be able to tell you that. He was conducting these experiments.\nQ.That is all.\nBY THE PRESIDENT:\nQ.Dr. Hippke, who determined which inmates in the concentration camps were death-deserving and asocial?\nA.That must have been decided by the SS. The direction of these experiments lay in Himmler's hands; whom he had commissioned to choose these who volunteered, that I cannot say. I assumed that it was Rascher and the Director of the experiments who knew that.\nQ.Well, then, whichever inmates were designated by Himmler as death deserving and asocial were proper subjects for these experiments?\nA.No, of those decided on by Himmler, Rascher and the experimental leaders could only make a choice; namely, they could choose volunteers who were condemned to death. The choice was made by Rascher and the man in charge of the particular experiment.\nQ.Well, Rascher and his associates merely picked out any men that Himmler had designated as death deserving and asked them to volunteer for these experiments?\nA.They haad to ascertain whether they really met the conditions that I set. IF they did, then they could take a necessary number of these people for the experiments. They had to be in a good state of physical health. They couldn't be people who were in any way weak or who were not appropriate for these experiments. They had to be such people, otherwise there would have been no parallel with pilots. Their nature had to be like that of pilots.\nQ.They had to be good specimens?\nA.Normal, average, but no really sick people because then the results of those experiments would be fallacious.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1087, "page_number": "864", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "Q.Is it your belief today that in all these experiments, only one possible death resulted and that one was denied by Rascher?\nA.No. Now I know that there were a great number of fatalities which because of secret-private experiments on the part of the SS-- came about. There was a lot of double dealing here. On the one hand, there were perfectly ordinary and regular experiments carried out on which reports were given to me and then there was a second secret experimental group which Rascher carried on within the framework of the SS and which was strictly kept from our knowledge. This double dealing was car ried on by Rascher, who was not only of a pathological nature but also of a criminal nature. That is the explanation.\nQ.Then, your eyes are open today?\nA.Today, my eyes are open, yes; and I am horrified by what I found out.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The court is about to recess until one-thirty. Will you have another witness ready at that time?\nDR. BERGOLD:I wanted to read a few documents this afternoon and then first ball my witness. However, I still have a few questions to direct to the witness here.\nTHE PRESIDENT:We will recess until one-thirty.\nTHE MARSHAL:This Tribunal is recessed until onethirty this afternoon.\n(The Tribunal recessed until 1330 hours.)", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "THE MARSHAL" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1088, "page_number": "865", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "AFTERNOON SESSION (The Tribunal reconvened at 1330 hours.)\nTHE MARSHAL:Tribunal Number 2 is again in session.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Please proceed.\nMR. DENNEY:If Your Honor please, the document which was last referred to, which is Document NumberNO 401, the report of the conference in Nurnberg--I was under the impression that Dr. Bergold had offered that, and the only reason that we didn't have it was because it has not come down from the document room, and hence I did not offer it because there is no sense in getting it in twice. I just want to make sure that if Dr. Bergold does not plan to offer it, why then, of course, we do, but he questioned the witness about it, and I just wanted to have that on the record because we don't have it in shape to present it now.\nTHE PRESIDENT:It was merely referred to; it was not handed to the Court, was it?\nMR. DENNEY:I did not hand it to the Court, no, Your Honor, but I thought Dr. Bergold was going to.\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes, may it please the Tribunal, I intend introducing it. I have completed Document Book 2, which I have already had since Monday of last week. That is, I turned it in for translation, but unfortunately it is not yet finished. I just heard that it will be ready within twenty or thirty minutes and will then be introduced.\nMR. DENNEY:If Your Honor please, I w,as not in any way quarreling about it. I just wanted it to appear on the record why we had not and to make it clear.\nTHE PRESIDENT:All right.\nERIC HIPPKE -- Resumed RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. BERGOLD:\nQ.Witness, the Prosecutor today mentioned the conferences during 1941. He asked you if at the time they spoke about high altitude and freezing experiments.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "MR. DENNEY", "THE MARSHAL" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1089, "page_number": "", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "I want you to clarify the fact if in 1941 freezing 865a experiments were being discussed.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1090, "page_number": "866", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "A.No. In 1941 we spoke about high altitude questions only.\nQ.Witness, the Prosecution also showed you this morning the letter of the defendant of 20 May 1942 and in this connection mentioned your statement concerning the conference of 31 August, during which conference Milch asked you concerning the freezing experiments and their significance. Do you remember that?\nA.Yes. I do.\nQ.Now, I would like to submit to you, or read to you, from the letter of the defendant Milch of 20 May 1942: \"On the other hand,\" it says, \"the execution of other experiments, the sea-distress for instance, is of importance. These are carried out by that office.\" Do you believe that the defendant Milch, who is not a physician, by the expression concerning sea-distress, had to know that these were chilling experiments?\nA.No, it was clear that it was just a cooperation between them and the Luftwaffe, between the SS and the Luftwaffe.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Wait just a minute. I did not get anything from that answer. I did not get any meaning out of that answer. What was it again, please?\nDR. BERGOLD:I had asked the witness, Your Honor-\nTHEPRESIDENT: (Interposing) No, it is the translation which wasn't clear to me.\nBY DR. BERGOLD:\nQ.Would you repeat your answer?\nA.It could only be seen that a cooperation between the Luftwaffe and the SS was taking place. The sea-distress questions concerned such experiments, and cannot be seen from this fact.\nQ.You were also under the impression that the word \"chilling\" was hoard by Milch on 31 August for the first time?\nA.Yes, it was heard by him for the first time on that day because this term did not exist prior to that date.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1091, "page_number": "867", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "Q.Thank you. Did you know, witness, that Rascher sent his own father to the concentration camp?\nA.No, I did not know that.\nQ.Witness, I shall come now to Exhibit No. 128, which was shown to you this morning by the Prosecution. This is a report of Rascher concerning his conversation with you.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1092, "page_number": "868", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "According to this report, you are to have said: \"You must be clear that the medical officer corps of the Luftwaffe will no longer cooperate with you, and that you will have scientific enmities from certain gentlemen\", and I shall skip a few words, \"That is, will have a fight in the scientific connection, and you will not have to expect such a fight.\"\nA.These terms were not used by me.\nQ.Are you of the opinion that they contain a threat and that it does not quite coincide with the fact that you said that you were rather nice?\nA.At that time I did not make any threats and I wasn't nice to him either I was just factual.\nQ.Witness, according to the statement made by Rascher, you are to have said that you and Romberg carried out, or were ordering, experiments over 21,000 meters of 21 kilometers. Is such a statement correct compared with your letter of the 6th of March, just six days prior to that, where you state: \"For the time being, this work however, can no longer be carried out because, for a continuance of the work, we need a low pressure chamber, which not only produces stratospheric altitudes, but also stratospheric temperatures.\"?\nA.They do not quite coincide. I explicitly said that this work of Dr. Romberg and Ruff would start right away, not of Rascher, who had nothing to do with that any longer.\nQ.I still don't understand that witness. You say that experiments were carried out over 21,000 meters and would be carried out very soon, and six days prior to that, you write: \"These experiments cannot be carried out before they cannot be executed because we do not have the chambers.\"\nA.I'm not speaking of over 21,000 meters. Rascher was the one who said that. We did not want to carry out experiments over 21,000 motors. We were only talking about freezing experiments in connection with the altitude experiments below 21,000 meters. In other words, the whole thing is wrong.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1093, "page_number": "", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "Q.Witness, Rascher speaks of being in a position to be promoted very fast with you, rued the SS there would be difficulties for the promotion. Did 868a you ever discuss such questions with him, or did you ever have an oralreport or a talk with him?", "speakers": [ "Q." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1094, "page_number": "869", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "A.I see here that there is a distortion here, that, I regard as desire to reach as high a rank in the SS - or rating as possible.\nQ.I have a last question to you, witness. This morning, the prosecution asked you when was the first time you spoke about these experiments with your superior in 41. As the question was not answered, due to some difficulty, I shall ask you again, explicitly. This letter to the defendant -- was this said to the defendant or to the supervisor, Ruedel?\nA.It was made to my supervisor. This remark was made to my direct superior, who at that time was General Ruedel, so that I do not doubt that the report went to Ruedel, and not directly to Milch, who at that time was no longer my immediate superior.\nQ.Do you know if the report then went down to Milch?\nA.That I do not know personally, because it was absolutely a matter concerning Ruedel.\nDR. BERGOLD:I have no further questions to this witness.\nBY JUDGE MUSMANNO:\nQ.Witness, in a letter which you wrote to Himmler, you stated that the freezing experiments led to results of practical use. Can you tell the Tribunal very briefly now, just what were those practical uses that you mentioned?\nA.The following things were the practical results: We knew now that people who had been saved from the water alive could only be revived by the use of hot water of 40 degrees - they could only be treated this way - and we thus succeeded in saving their lives, whereas, in a greater percentage of cases, in spite of all the attempts that were made to save their lives, we did not succeed in doing so. That was absolutely new for us. Apart from that, we understood, through the experiments, that the use of medicine, drugs, did not help at all.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1095, "page_number": "870", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "As a matter of fact, they didn't help at all. We finally found out that the speed with which the doctor must help after the saving must be a great one because, afterwards, the rescued ones die within half an hour after the rescue. Finally, there was something else that was practical, or practically important; that such people who had been rescued unconsciously, and who were stiff in their muscular systems, were still to be saved; that, on the contrary, people, the muscular systems of whom was lax, were dead, and that a rescue was absolutely unnecessary and useless. In other words, while a man was still stiff in his muscles, then everything should be tried in order to revive him. Finally, we found out that the protective suits had a very very great practical importance; that furthermore demonstrated what ought to be changed on those suits, suits, namely, that the pilot in the protective suit had to float vertically and not horizontally, so that his neck wouldn't be exposed to the cold water, because, should the neck be exposed to the cold water, there was a great danger of death. All this was absolutely new for us, and, therefore, of greatest practical use, and immediately after the conference, we made use of it. I personally saw to it that in the fiord of Oslu the hot water was used, in a motor torpedo boat, through the fact that the radiator water, which was about 40 degrees, could be used on the rescued persons.\nQ.Very well. Do you know Walter Neff?\nA.No. I don't know Walter Neff. I only heard that he was one of those released from Dachau, who participated in the experiments and I know that he's here in jail, because, in the corridor I noticed his name.\nQ.You do not know that he has testified that the subjects of these experiments were not volunteers?\nA.Would you repeat the question, please? No; I didn't know that. I never heard about that.\nDR. BERGOLD:I am through with the witness. I have no further questions, Your honor.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1096, "page_number": "", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "THE PRESIDENT:The I Marshal may remove the witness.\n(The witness was removed.)\n870 a", "speakers": [ "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1097, "page_number": "871", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "DR. BERGOLD:I would appreciate it if we could call the witness RICHTER: since document Book 2 is not ready yet.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Here, is the Marshal.\nDR. BERGOLD:May I call in Witness Richter? May it Please this Tribunal, I am calling this witness a little earlier than I expected, for the following reasons: When the Tribunal granted me permission to call this witness there was no time during the session yesterday so I could finish my own personal affairs, therefore, I was not in the courthouse.\nI just heard that this witness, who is 71 years of age, due to a long-chain of bad happenings, for which nobody is responsible, is badly billeted, in an absolutely cold room and his food situation is not very clear. I therefore want to enable this poor old man to be in a position to return to his home at once. After a consultation with Mr. Denny, Mr. Denny has agreed, and I now ask the Tribunal for permission to grant me my wish now.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Mr. Denny, do you object to Dr. Bergold calling this witness at this time?\nMR. DENNY:No, Your Honor.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Very well. The Marshal will please produce the witness Richter.\nTHEMARSHAL: \"Richter\"?\nTHE PRESIDENT:Yes.\n(At this juncture the Marshal left the room and returned with a male person, who took his seat in the witness chair, the marshal adjusting the witness' ear-phones to the witness' head)\nTHE PRESIDENT:Will the witness stand, please?\n(the witness stands)\nThe PRESIDENT: Raise your right hand.\n(The witness raises his right hand)\nTHE PRESIDENT:Repeat after me: \"I swear by God\" -", "speakers": [ "MR. DENNY", "THE", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1098, "page_number": "", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "(The witness repeats the words in German)\nTHEPRESIDENT: --the Almighty and Omniscient,\" -\n(The witness repeats)\n871 a", "speakers": [ "THE" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1099, "page_number": "872", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "THEPRESIDENT: -- \"that I will speak the pure truth\"-\n(the witness repeats)\nTHEPRESIDENT: --\"and will withhold\" (the witness repeats)\nTHEPRESIDENT: --\"and add nothing.\"\n(the witness repeats)\nTHE PRESIDENT:You may sit down. Proceed.\nKARL EITELRICHTER, the witness, thereupon testified as follows:\nDIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. BERGOLD:\nQWitness, if I ask you now, I want you for technical purposes, to make a certain pause between my questions and your answer, a few seconds, so that the translator can finish the translation of your question, before they interpret your answer?\nAYes.\nQWitness, tell the Tribunal your first name and your middle name, if any, and your last name?\nAKarl Eitel Richter.\nQWhen were you born?\nAOn the 3rd of February 1876.\nQThat was your position,--the last position you held with the government in Germany?\nAI was Director of the Ministry; with theAviation Ministry, as the Personal Reporter of tho Defendant Milch, Field Marshal Milch.\nQCan you recognize the defendant Milch in this room?\nA (The witness nods his head in the direction of Dr. Bergold)\nDR. BERGOLD:I wish tho record to show that the witness recognizes the defendant.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The record will so show.\n(pause)\nTHE PRESIDENT: The witness will please repeat what his position was with the German Government.", "speakers": [ "A", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "THE", "Q", "KARL EITEL" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1100, "page_number": "873", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "BY DR. BERGOLD:\nQ.Will you tell the Tribunal what was your last position?\nA.Director in the Air Ministry and Personal Reporter of Field Marshal Milch.\nQ.How long have you known the defendant Milch?\nA.Since 1919, approximately.\nQ.How long have you had to do with the official business of the defendant, in what capacity did you have official dealings with him?\nA.At that time, as far an I can remember, I was made Hauptman-\nQ.Answer the question again?\nA.I was Ministerial Personal Adviser at the Reich Office for Air navigation and Motoring.\nA.How long have you been personal adviser of the defendant Milch?\nA.It was either 1937 or 1938.\nQ.What was Milch's position at that time?\nA.I can't tell you that exactly, what rank the defendant had at that time; maybe he was a General, or maybe he was a Major General; I don't know.\nQ.I did not ask you about the rank; I asked you about his \"position\"?\nA.Secretary of State for Luftwaffe, the Luftwehr.\nQ.Do you know the former Director of Aviation, Hippke?\nA.Yes, I know him all right.\nQ.Was Hippke under the defendant Milch?\nA.For a certain time, yes.\nQ.Please state the date, from when to when?\nA.I am afraid I can't do that, because I do not know.\nQ.Is it right to say that he was no longer under Milch, is that correct, when the Luftwehr was placed under General Raoder?\n(no response)\nQ.Is that correct?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1101, "page_number": "", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "A.To the best of my knowledge that is correct.\nQ.Was the witness Hippke often received by the Defendant General Milch?\nA.No.\nQ.And why not?\nA.Because the Field Marshal did not like to see Hippke. He did not like him.\n873 a", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1102, "page_number": "874", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "Q.Did you ever say, \"No, thanks\", when Hippke wanted to report?\nA.Yes.\nQ.For what reason?\nA.Yes, I believe he did not like Hippke. Because he talked too much.\nQ.Did the defendant tell you about it, that the SS was carrying out experiments together with the Luftwaffe physician Rascher in Dachau, and that the whole thing was supervised by Ruff?\nA.No.\nQ.Is it a fact that most of the official visitors of the defendant went through your office?\nA.Yes, quite a few of them but not all of them.\nQ.It was the procedure, however, was it not, that they first had to go through the Medical Inspection Office and had to go through you?\nA.Unfortunately, these proceedings were not conducted openly but secretly; that is why they couldn't have gone through some other channel.\nQ.The witness Hippke testified here that on the 20th of May, 1942, he wanted to see Milch for a report, or to make a report, and that he was not received however, but he left a report slip; do you know about this happening, or did those things happen very often, generally speaking?\nA.Yes, it happened often. During my office, certain people left record slips for the Defendant.\nDR. BERGOLD:This letter of the 20th of May, 1942, reads as follows \"Dear Wolffy: In reference to your telegram of the 12th, May, our Medical Inspector reports to me that the altitude experiments carried out by the SS and Luftwaffe at Dachau have been finished. Any continuation of the experiments seems essentially unreasonable. However, the carrying out of experiments of another kind, in regard to perils at high seas, would be important. These have been prepared in immediate agreement with the proper office. Oberstabsarzt Seltz will be charged with the execution and Stabarzt Rascher will be made available with further order in addition to his duties within the Medical Corps of the Luftwaffe.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1103, "page_number": "", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "A change of these measures does not appear necessary, and an enlargement of the task is not considered pressing, at this time. The low pressure chambers would not be needed for those low temperature experiments. It is 874 a urgently needed at another place and therefore can no longer remain in Dachau.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1104, "page_number": "875", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "I convey the special thanks iron the supreme commander of the Luftwaffe to the SS for their extensive cooperation.\nI remain with test wishes for you in good comradeship and with Heil Hitler Always yours \"E. Milch To SS Obergruppenfuehrer Wolff Berlin SW 11\"\nQ.Was the defendant Milch on such good relationship that he could talk to him and call him \"dear Wolfy\" or how do you explain that the Obergruppenfuehrer was not also calling him at that time by the first name and not Field Marshal? This can be clearly seen from the letter of the 27th of February 1942, to which I shall refer later.\nA.The way these people addressed each other as not in most cases the result of close intimacy.\nQ.How does it come that Field Marshal Milch is writing to Obergruppenfuehrer Wolff with such great intimacy?\nA.As concerns the personal relationship between Obergruppenfuehrer Wolff and Field Marshall Milch, I never noticed such a relationship.\nQ.Do you know that Wolf was generally addressed as \"Wolffie\"?\nA.Yes, I heard that.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1105, "page_number": "876", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "Q.In the letter of 20 May, 1942, which I submitted to you; could that letter have been dictated by the defendant Milch, or was it dictated by somebody else?\nA.All these letters were written by somebody else and submitted to the Field Marshal and the Field Marshal just put his signature on them in those cases.\nQ.And all those cases where the letters were submitted to the defendant did he review the letter closely or did he just sign them?\nA.I don't believe that a close reviewing was possible; the Field Marshal signed after the personnel who had written the letter said a few words to him in other words, explain the contents of the letter.\nQ.How many letters do you think that Milch had to sign within a day?\nA.I can remember that there were quite a few letters. I found out that the Field Marshal signed eight hundred letters within three days.\nQ.Witness, was the field of work of the defendant a small one or a large one?\nA.It was just about in-between; in any case rather larger than smaller.\nQ.Did he have, for the various experiments, did he have much time to examine those things?\nA.No.\nQ.Witness, on the 25th of August, 1942, in connection with these experiments, a letter from Hitler came in where he asked to accept a report of Dr. Rascher and Dr. Ruff and to call these gentlemen and receive these gentlemen for a film-lecture. Is that fact known to you?\nA.No.\nQ.Do you know if on the 25th of August, the defendant Milch was in Berlin?\nA.No, I don't know that.\nQ.Witness, the witness Hippke testified here that this letter, with the enclosures, was sent to him. Is that the normal channel of things that such questions concerning such medical questions were sent on without any further trouble; or if the defendant was asked before their conveyance if they should be sent or not?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1106, "page_number": "", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "AThe normal channel was that either the gentleman came in to sign the letters themselves or they were conveyed through normal office channels.\nQWitness, do you know that on the 11th of September, 1942, in the Reich Ministry for Aviation, during a conference, a film was shown concerning the Dachau experiments?\nANo, I don't know that.\nQWitness, a letter came in written by the Obergruppenfuehrer Wolf on the 27th of November, 1942; this letter was answered by the witness Hippke on the 6 of March, 1943; whereupon Hippke says that the State Secretary Milch has given me your letter of 27 November regarding the release, etc., how did this happen between the 27th of November, 1942 and the 6th of March, 1943, the lapse of time; did it occur upon the orders of the defendant Milch?\nANo. I am sure that he submitted the letter to some other office.\nQThere was no order of the defendant Milch to leave such a letter around?\nANo.\nQWitness, I shall now proceed to another question which has nothing to do with this medical case. May it please the Tribunal, this witness is here only once; I have to ask a few other questions. Witness, you have known the defendant for a very long time.\nAYes.\nQIs the defendant a man of bad character, or was he a rather humane man?\nA.I have fifty years of civil service, and I had many superiors, all military superiors, that is; and I want to say and I can say that he was correct and fair.\nQWitness, how can you explain that in the records there are quite a few strong words 877 of the defendant where he continually speaks of the fact that people who do not do their work or duty ought to be shot, hanged, beaten or punished in some other way.", "speakers": [ "A", "A.", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1107, "page_number": "878", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "A.Well, that was the way of the defendant; to use boasting remarks once in a while; although the defendant, I am sure, thought in some other way, in very honest ways that is.\nQ.Can you tell this Tribunal of a characteristic hanging, where the defendant sentenced somebody to death, and what actually happened to the persons sentenced later on?\nA.The Field Marshal had a very small jurisdiction only in the house small cases; and sometimes he sentenced somebody -- for instance if somebody, when there were secret papers and somebody left the drawers open, which were found open -- in those cases he had them pay a fine of fifty or eighty marks which were later collected. Later on though, he was sorry about sentencing the men to pay fifty or eighty marks and he made up for it by ordering that there be sent to the wife of that man or to the family during any of the holidays; some money, which amount was higher than the fine paid.\nQ.Isn't it correct that in such cases he first threatened to have the guilty one hanged, etc.?\nA.Well, yes, the defendant always said those things.\nQ.Were these threats made very often?\nA.Very often, and I still remember -\nQ.Were you yourself threatened in the same manner -- to be hanged? Were you over hanged?\nA.Yes, and I am still alive too.\nQ.Was it known that those words which the defendant used were never meant?\nA.Yes, that was known in the Luftwaffe undoubtedly.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1108, "page_number": "", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "Q.Did these outbursts of rage increase after the accidents he had?\nA.Yes, after the accident in Stalingrad they did increase undoubtedly; after that time he was very nervous and he sort of burst into rages; but latter 878A on he was very sorry about it.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1109, "page_number": "879", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "I am a layman myself, but personally I believe that this is in connection with the accidents.\nQ.When was that accident, witness?\nA.That was during the siege of Stalingrad.\nQ.In other words, around the end of 1942 or early in 1943?\nA.Yes, January 1943, perhaps.\nQ.Witness, I shall now submit to you from the document book 2 C of the Prosecution, page 174; the Exhibit No. I have not here, I believe this is Document No. KW 247. It is an undated authorization of Goering, and I would like to have him read it before I ask questions.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Where is it found in the English Document Book?\nDR. BERGOLD:Page 99.\nQ. (Continued) Did you read the power of attorney?\nA.Yes.\nQ.Witness, did such an authorization ever exist?\nA.I don't know if such an authorization existed; I have never seen one.\nQ.Would it be possible that such an authorization would have been issued in 1944 by Goering to the defendant Milch?\nA.I don't believe that is possible; I don't believe that this is possible.\nQ.Isn't it correct that in July 1944, the defendant had already or almost broken with Goering?\nA.That was the case most of the time, or always.\nQ.Now tell us, witness, the relationship between Milch and Goering.\nA.It was always a bad relationship, which almost lead to his elimination.\nQ.When did that elimination take place?\nA.Well, there was a constant elimination so to say; namely, that the Field Marshal had point by point removed all Milch's powers and the powers were taken over by Goering.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1110, "page_number": "", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "Q.Do you know that in June, 1944, he resigned from his position as Air 879A Ordinance General of Air Force?", "speakers": [ "Q." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1111, "page_number": "880", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "A.Yes, I know that, but I don't remember the date.\nQ.Was that in the summer of 1944?\nA.That may have been in the summer of 1944; I don't remember the year, however.\nQ.In the summer of 1944 you don't believe he could have gotten such an authorization?\nA.No, as I mentioned before, I believe it is almost impossible.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1112, "page_number": "881", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "Q.Witness, do you know that the defendant Milch and General von Gablenz helped a former associate of Milch, Dr. Schatzky, to escape from Germany and to go to America?\nA.Yes, Dr. Schatzky is known to me.\nQ.I want you to tell the Tribunal who he was.\nA.Schatzky was working with the German Lufthansa. He had to leave the Lufthansa because he was a Jew, and with the help of the Field Marshal he was sent to Holland and when the situation was no longer bearable there for Schatzky the now already dead General von Gablenz came and discussed the matter with the Field Marshal and the Field Marshal saw to it that Schatzky could go to the states.\nQ.Witness, isn't it correct that in general the defendant saw only those letters which bore the signature \"MI\" with red pencil and the date?\nA.Yes, that's correct.\nQ.Were those letters always dealt with by him or did he only read them?\nA.That meant that the Field Marshal only saw them. That's all.\nQ.Witness, do you know that in the Central Planning Board in the Jaegerstag the technical discussions they took verbatim records?\nA.I don't know that. The verbatim records were always taken and were then presented or submitted.\nQ.Were they ever reviewed by the defendant or by somebody else? Does that mean in every case that the Minister actually read that, actually ordered that or was that usual as the style of the German officials that a representative always wrote in the \"I\" form?\nA.In those offices there were two styles. The \"I\" style and the unpersonal style. This did not at all mean when I used the \"I\" style that the Reichsmarshal or the Field Marshal had any idea at all of this letter.\nQ.Is it correct that very often the reporters came to you and wanted to have letterhead papers with the defendant's name on it?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1113, "page_number": "882", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "AYes, that was usual.\nQDid you know that Milch very often criticized Hitler, Goring, Himmler, and Goebbels.\nAYes. Well, once in a while I heard something similar.\nQDid you know that such terms were used during the discussions and conference and that he told the stenographers to skip these passages?\nAYes, of course, these passages had to be skipped or changed.\nQWas the defendant often received by Goering for oral reports.\nANo. Very, very seldom only.\nQAt the time of the Fighter Staff did you know that in his place a certain Mr Sauer reported on the work of the Staff to Goering?\nASauer was the actual head of the Fighter Staff and he took care of these things personally. As far as I know the yield Marshal did not assist--did not participate in these conferences.\nQDid the Field Marshal Milch have a close contact with party organizations?\nANo, he did not have any contact with the party organizations. I paid his fees for him.\nQIs it correct that Milch addressed Obergruppenfuehrer Wolf only in order to help people who were being persecuted by the Gestapo?\nAI know such cases where that happened.\nQDid you ever find out that Sauckel ever saw Milch regarding labor questions and did he have such a position to report on that directly to Milch?\nAI never saw Sauckel in our place and I don't know that he had such a position.\nQCould Sauckel reach the defendant through some other channels other than through you?", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1114, "page_number": "", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "ANo, there was only one channel to the Field Marshal and that channel led through my room.\nQIs it correct that all of the persons who wanted to see Milch had to see you first?\nAYes.\n882 a", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1115, "page_number": "883", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "QDo you know if Milch said to tho former Chief of the Laftwaffe Ruedel and Chief of the Lafthanse Feerster and Hippke-- if he trusted them all?\nAConcerning this answer I can only give you my opinion about it.\nQYes, please.\nAI believe that he did not trust them.\nQWhen do you mean? Whom out of the three?\nAHe did not trust the latter.\nQFor reasons of irreliability or personal reasons? Did you know that in the Office of Milch concerning the applications for concentration camp inmates went through his office?\nANo, I only know that the Field Marshal applied for workers from the German troups and he tried to get these workers free--tried to have them released.\nQWas Milch in a position to send someone into a concentration camp.\nANo, as far as I knew, no.\nQDo you know if he over issued orders concerning PW's or foreign labor and that these people ought to be hanged or killed or shot?\nA.No, the Field Marshal did not have this power.\nQDo you know witness, that in February 1944 there was in escape of Russian prisoners, namely, two officers, by using a plane?\nAYes, I do.As far as this was a mechanic. This was said to be a mechanic who took off with somebody else.\nQWhat happened then? Did they succeed in excaping or what did happen?\nAAs far as I know they had to make an emergency landing. They were re-captured.\nQDo you knew if the defendant did anything in connection? If he ordered anything?", "speakers": [ "A", "A.", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1116, "page_number": "", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "ANo.\nQAt that time was he in Berlin?\nAYes, I believe he was but I can't tell you for certain.\n883A", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1117, "page_number": "884", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "QIsn't it correct that he learned about it?\nAYes, I remember. He was in his room--he was standing in his room when the news came.\nQDo you know if Milch concerning this matter had a talk with Hitler?\nANo.\nQWould you have had to know that?\nAAll of the discussions which the Field Marshall wanted to have with the gentleman had to go through my office.\nDR BERGOLD:May it please the Tribunal, this answer is one of the most important answers in this complex. Why, I shall show the Tribunal later. It is of the greatest importance that Milch did not talk with the Fuehrer concerning this incident. Later on I shall prove that the order that these people be shot came from the Fuehrer.", "speakers": [ "A", "DR BERGOLD", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1118, "page_number": "885", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "QWitness, do you think it possible that tho Defendant Milch declared during a session of Planning Board that he had these Russian prisoners shot or hanged? Or do you think that it is a mistake in the records?\nMR DENNEY:If Your Honor please, we certainly let him go far afield. Now he is asking, 'Do you think it is possible that the Defendant could have said something?\" There is nothing to show that this nan is anything but a civil servant who apparently is in an adjoining office. He is a faithful old retainer who was in some sort of a secretarial capacity. He was not a member of Central Planning. There is nothing to show he was ever there. I submit it is going too far to ask, \"Do you think it is possible that the Defendant could have said' something\"\nTHE PRESIDENT:Do you think it is a little late to draw the line?\nMR DENNEY:I think we should draw it somewhere or we will be here all day.\nTHE PRESIDENT:This morning I asked the witness if he suspected that another man might have thought a third man was in the position to do something.\nMR DENNEY:I am trying to be fair about this. This is the thing that impels me to say something at this time. I have boon listening to Dr. Bergold testify for about 45 minutes. Tho question before this last one was, \"Could milch have seen Hitler except through you? The witness said, \"No. He could not.\" That is so obviously ridiculous, I thought I better say something.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The Tribunal is ready to rule.\nDR. BERGOLD:I would like to say -\nTHE PRESIDENT:I am about to rule with you, so you need not labor the point. In view of your emphasis on this particular point in the proceedings, and your insistence that is most important, we are not inclined to draw the line against this testimony at the moment.", "speakers": [ "MR DENNEY", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1119, "page_number": "", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "We will reserve the right to determine how much you are proving, but we don't feel inclined to foreclose you from presenting this testimony which you say is most important. At this point, we will take a recess 885 a", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1120, "page_number": "886", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "THE MARSHAL:This Tribunal will recess for fifteen minutes.\n(A recess was taken.)", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1121, "page_number": "887", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "THE MARSHAL:The Tribunal 3 is again in session.\nDR. BERGOLD:Your Honors, I have just heard that my Document Book No. 2 has turned up. I an very happy that that is so. I am beset with another difficulty which I should like to discuss with the court. If I understood the court marshal correctly, there will be some difficulties tomorrow and the day after. The defendants of the first trial, whom I have called for this trial in order to interrogate them regarding their affidavits, I ask the court to decide. The court marshal doubts whether we shall be permitted to bring these defendants down to this trial, if I understand him correctly. How is that to be done?\nTHE PRESIDENT:Apparently only by a miracle. This Tribunal will not presume to march into the other one and snatch some of their defendants away to be witnesses. I imagine some sort of an understanding will have to be reached with the Tribunal I so that these men can be used here as witnesses while the other Tribunal is in recess. How that can be done, I haven't the faintest idea. Judge Phillips has suggested that it might be possible that when testimony is being offered which does not affect the witness, the defendant in the other case, that he could be hurried down here to testify. I don't know whether this can be done or not. I'll have to confer with Judge Beals of Tribunal 1 to get his suggestion as to how it can be worked out.\nMR. DENNEY:If your Honor please, in the first trial, and I believe in this one upstairs, there have been days when defendants individually on one occasion - I can remember in this trial, too - have been absent for the purposes of preparing their defense, and perhaps if a suggestion could be made to that effect. I could work out something with Mr. McHaney so that he would agree to refrain for a certain period. It wouldn't be any more than one session, I wouldn't think, for each of the various witnesses, so that we can get them down and get this trial concluded.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Can you tell us, Dr. Bergold, which defendants you have planned to call?\nDR. BERGOLD:Rudolf Brandt, Hans Romberg, Wolfram Sievers, Oskar Schroeder, Hermann Becker-Freyseng, Georg August Weltz, and Siegfried Ruff.", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "MR. DENNEY", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1122, "page_number": "888", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "Mr. President, I believe that I shall need at the most one hour for each witness and I think it would be much less than that. I wish to ask only one, two, or three questions of each witness. Only the witness Ruff will take slightly more time.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Will you give me the names again?\nDR. BERGOLD:Rudolf Brandt, Hans Romberg, Wolfram Sievers, Oskar Schroeder, Hermann Becker-Freyseng, Georg August Weltz, and Siegfried Ruff.\nTHE PRESIDENT:I will confer with Judge Beals at the end of the session and we will do the best we can.\nDR. BERGOLD:Thank you. I continue with my interrogation of the witness BY DR. BERGOLD:\nQ.Witness, a misunderstanding arose in one of my last questions that I directed to you. I asked you whether it would have been impossible for Milch to speak by long distance by phone to the Fuehrer without doing it via you. The translation was \"to see the Fuehrer\" instead of to speak to him by telephone. That, of course, is ridiculous. But is it not true that you were speaking, at that time, of telephonic communication?\nA.Yes.\nQ.I return now to the last question I asked you. Do you hold that Milch's statement as made in the Central Planning, that he had Russians shot or hanged, correct; or do you hold it to be an exaggerated expression or an error in the minutes?\nA.That could be an error in the minutes or simply exaggeration.\nQ.You do not know that he ever gave such an order?\nA.No.\nQ.Did he have the power of command to do so?\nA.No.\nQ.Did he have any power of command over prisoners of war camps?\nA.No. not at all.\nQ.Did he ever give orders to the SS?\nA.Never.\nQ.Did he have any power of command to the police -- the ordinary policy.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1123, "page_number": "889", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "A.No, not there either.\nQ.Did you know that Milch, regarding the shooting of English air officers who fled from the camp Sagan, that he was upset and characterized it as a Mistake?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1124, "page_number": "890", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "A.I knew that.\nQ.Do you know who drew up the program for the technical meetings?\nA.They were drawn up by the technical offices of the G.L.\nQ.Who was in charge -- the chairman of the technical office?\nA.That was General Vorhof or General Gawlitz.\nQ.Were transfers from the Luftwaffe to the other offices frequent during the war and what position did Milch take in these cases?\nA.I knew that there were excesses of one sort or another and that Milch had nothing to do with it.\nQ.Did he use a particular expression in this case?\nA.Milch said, \"In general; we shouldn't keep such people as that.\"\nQ.Is it true that Goering ordered that he would take special measures if he needed a total representation for his whole office?\nA.The defendant never had such total representation from Goering.\nQ.Tell me, from what date on did the defendant have to do with armament during the war?\nA.After Udet's death.\nQ.Is it true that Udet's death occurred roughly around 17 November 1941?\nA.I am hot too sure of the year, but that is probably correct.\nQ.And when did Milch stop his activity as G.L., Herr Ordnance Master General?\nA.Unfortunately, I cannot tell you the year.\nQ.Was it '44 or '45?\nA.It could not have been '45; it must have been '44.\nQ.What did Milch have to do with Four-Year Plan?\nA.So far as I know, nothing.\nQ.Was Sauckel and his offices subordinate to Milch?\nA.No.\nQ.Did Milch have anything to do with the recruitment or transportation or accommodations -- clothing and such things -- of foreign workers?\nA.No.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1125, "page_number": "", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "AIt could not have been '45; it must have been '44.\nQWhat did Milch have to do with Four-Year Plan?\nASo far as I know, nothing.\nQWas Sauckel and his offices subordinate to Milch?\nANo.\nQDid Milch have anything to do with tho recruitment or transportation or accommodations -- clothing and such things-of foreign workers?\nANo.\n890-a", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1126, "page_number": "891", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "QCould Milch give orders to the military officers or the civilian officers, in the occupied territories, that is?\nANo.\nQWhat did Milch describe to you as the tasks of the Central Planning?\nAThe administration in the first order of raw materials.\nQDo you know what the manpower situation was in the aircraft industry? Was it sufficient or faulty?\nASo far as I know, the manpower situation was insufficient.\nQDo you know that Milch made continuous efforts to keep his German workers ?\nAYes, he made efforts to get workers from the troops.\nQFrom the fighting troops?\nAYes.\nQDid he also make efforts to prevent inductions?\nAThat also.\nQDid you know or do you know whether or not Milch believed Sauckel's enormous statistical numbers?\nAI heard that the Field Marshal did not believe those numbers.\nQDid he consider them too high or too low?\nAI don't know that for sure, but at any rate the numbers were incorrect.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1127, "page_number": "892", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "Q.Did Milch have punitive power in the Luftwaffe industry?\nA.No.\nQ.Over foreigners?\nA.No.\nQ.Over prisoners of war?\nA.No.\nQ.Over concentration camps?\nA.No.\nQ.Foreign labor?\nA.No.\nQ.Do you know of the secret reports of Himmler to his SD offices about the treatment of foreign workers?\nA.No, I did not read them.\nQ.Do you know Rosenberg's reports regarding the situation in the Eastern territories?\nA.I did not see them either.\nQ.Did you see any reports or regulations regarding the treatment of foreign workers in Germany?\nA.No, as far as I can recall.\nQ.Did you work in close contact with Milch?\nA.Yes.\nQ.Did he express himself openly to you, on the whole?\nA.I assume that he did.\nQ.Did. you know that he made efforts that the foreign workers should be treated well?\nA.Yes.\nQ.Can you be more precise on this subject?\nA.He spoke with Speer on this subject, as far as I know. His principle was that you should treat well workers who worked well.\nQ.Did Milch make demands either of Speer or Sauckel that workers should be forced to come to Germany?\nA.As far as I know, he did not.\nQ.Would that in general have gone through your offices?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1128, "page_number": "893", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "A.Yes, that would probably have had to go through me.\nQ.Do you know whether Milch knew of the conditions in the recruitment and transportation of foreign workers?\nA.Probably not.\nQ.Tell me, what struggle did Milch carry on for an effective air armament and what did he call effective -- fighters or bombers?\nA.Fighters.\nQ.For that reason, did he have to struggle with anyone to achieve that, or were the higher offices in agreement on that?\nA.No. Goering was not in agreement on that.\nQ.Do you know whither Hitler was in agreement with him?\nA.I don't know.\nQ.Did you know that the defendant Milch, after ho had taken the office of GL was very strict in his direction of this office?\nA.Yes.\nQ.Did this strictness Serve tow rd the enslavement of foreign workers or to achieve the increase of the effectiveness of the German offices?\nA.The latter.\nQ.Do you know whether Milch used foreign workers or prisoners of war in munitions factories?\nA.Not that I know of.\nQ.Do you know whether the term \"munition factory\" is identical with the term \"armament factory\", or is the latter term more extensive?\nA.The latter is more extensive.\nQ.Do armament factories include also the iron producing industry?\nA.I can not answer this question in the affirmative, but I would assume.\nQ.Do you know that there was considerable discussion about loafers and considerable excitement about them?\nA.Yes, they were discussed.\nQ.Did one understand under this term foreigners or native Germans?\nA.Only native Germans.\nQ.Did the defendant undertake anything against the loafers ?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1129, "page_number": "894", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "A.No, he was not in a position to do so.\nQ.I believe I am almost finished. Tell me, who determined that concentration camp inmates were to be used in the aircraft industry?\nA.I cannot say. I assume that it was Speer.\nQ.Could Milch give orders to military offices, the CKW, OKH, the OKL?\nA.No.\nQ.Our late friend, Goering, declared in an affidavit that the claiming of labor in the armament industry was so arranged that Milch made the requests and gave them to Spoor; that is, the requirements in the Air Ministry. Do you know anything about those requests for workers?\nA.They were, perhaps, compiled in the Technical Office and then sent to Speer.\nQ.Did they go directly through the defendant's office?\nA.No, they wont only through the technical office.\nQ.Do you know that the defendant at the beginning of 1943 advised Hitler to stop the war because it was lost?\nA.I had herd so.\nDR. BERGOLD: No further questions.\nCROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. DENNEY:\nQ.Witness, you went to work for the defendant in 1919?\nA.Yes.\nQ.And what were your duties with him?\nA.Civilian aeronautics and the affairs of the German Lufthansa.\nQ.Were you a civil servant?\nA.I have boon a civil servant since 1896.\nQ.Until when?\nA.Until the end of the war.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1130, "page_number": "", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "Q.What was your salary in 1941?\n894-a", "speakers": [ "Q." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1131, "page_number": "895", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "A.I cannot say; I can only say that at the conclusion I received the pay for group 1-A. wags seals 1927. That was 12,600 marks par annum.", "speakers": [ "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1132, "page_number": "896", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "Q.What kind of marks, blocked marks, Reichsmarks, travel marks?\nA.The regular German marks.\nQ. 12,600 marks a year?\nA.Yes.\nQ.Was your office adjoining the defendants?\nA.Yes.\nQ.Did anyone who entered his office have to come through your office?\nA.Yes.\nQ.The defendant could not got out of his office without going through your office?\nA.Well, there was one other door, but it was locked and never used.\nQ.Well, there was another way that ho could get out without going through your office?\nA.Yes, but I would have noticed that anyway because I went into bis office very often.\nQ.And if ho could got out through another way, maybe somebody could got in that way, too?\nA.No, because I had the key to the door.\nQ.He had to come and see you and got tho key if he wanted to go out? Is that right?\nA.That would have been possible, and I would have given it to him.\nQ.I assume that you would have.\nA.Under no circumstances. But he is speaking of a person trying to get in, add we are talking about somebody trying to get out.\nQ.Did you ever go to meetings of the Central Planning Board?\nA.No.\nQ.Did you ever go to the meetings of tho Jaegerstab?\nA.No.\nQ.Did you ever go on trips with the defendant?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1133, "page_number": "897", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "A.No. Whenever the Fieldmarshal was away, I was at home.\nQ.Did you overuses him outside of the office?\nA.Yes.\nQ.Did you go to his home?\nA.Once when the Fieldmarshal was sick, I visited him.\nQ.So you wore at his home once in 25 years approximately?\nA.Yes.\nQ.Were you over in tho army with him?\nA.In the army? As a soldier? In 1896.\nQ.No, I mean a little more recently than that -- world war 1 or the present war.\nA.I have always been a soldier; that is, not an active soldier but an active member of the Wehrmacht who belonged to the Wehrmacht.\nQ.Were you a member of the Party?\nA.I was a Party member, yes.\nQ.I believe you told Dr. Bergold that you used to pay tho defendant's dues for him.\nA.Yes.\nQ.And you were reimbursed, I assume, by the defendant for the payment?\nA.Please don't understand it that way. I had a little sum from which I settled the defendant's obligations.\nQ.Well, you had a cash box that the defendant left me money in, and when it was empty it was replenished.\nA.Yes.\nQ.Do you know a Dr. Staffer--S-T-E-F-F-E-R?\nA.No, I never board of him.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1134, "page_number": "898", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "Q.Did you over see a film shown in the Air Ministry, having to do with medical experiments which were performed?\nA.No.\nMR. DENNEY:No further questions.\nDR. BERGOLD:I have no further questions to the witness. He may be dismissed. I ask also that the Court rule whether or not he can go home to Darmstadt.\nBY JUDGE PHILLIPS:\nQ.What was Sauckel's rank in comparison with the defendant's rank?\nA.Sauckel was a Reichsleiter. There can be no ready comparison between the two positions because the Fieldmarshal was a soldier and Sauckel was a civilian.\nQ.Sauckel was a civilian; and who did ha got his authority from?\nA.So far as I know, ho received his orders either from Goering or from Hitler.\nQ.And you say that the defendant Milch did not have power to have anyone shot or killed?\nA.No.\nQ.What authority does a Fieldmarslal in the German army have?\nA.This power lay with Goering. He signed all such verdicts and also reached all decisions on such matters.\nQ.I understood you to say that it was impossible for Goering to give Milch the authority contained in tho DocumentNOKW-247, Document Bock No. 20. Page 99. Why couldn't Goering give Milch this power and authority?\nA.Goering, did not give such authorizations.\nQ.He had no power to delegate that authority to the defendant at all?\nA.No; he head the power, but for egotistical reasons ho did not do it.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1135, "page_number": "", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "Q.Do you understand the document I was asking you about?\nA.I assume that it's the document that I saw here Previously.\n898-a", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1136, "page_number": "899", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "Q.Well, now, do you say now that Georing did not give the defendant Milch the authority contained in that document?\nA.So far as I remember I was asked if I had seen this authorization.\nQ.You were asked by the counsel for the defendant, \"Did Goering give Milch this authority contained in this document?\" I understood you to say that it was impossible for him to do that.\nA.I don't believe that he did, sir. It's my firm conviction that that did not take place. I did not see this authorization.\nQ.Well, do you now say that he did not give him this authority contained in this document ?\nA.That's what I wish to say; yes.\nJUDGE PHILLIPS:All right.\nDR. BERGOLD:Your Honors, I could perhaps explain this here -- the word \"impossible\" was used in connection with the date. The witness wished to say that in the year 1944 in June, the squabble between the defendant and Goering was so acute and had reached such a point that for this reason he thought it was impossible that Goering should have given the defendant this authorization. Otherwise, no further questions.\nBY THE PRESIDENT:\nQ.Just one question. Was Goering accustomed to putting up with people that he didn't like?\nA.No; hardly ever.\nQ.Why did he put up with Milch for so long?\nA.Of course I can't say, but there were always difficulties.\nQ.But those difficulties Goering cheese to endure, did he, in Milch's case?\nA.Yes, he just put up with them.\nQ.He kept him although he didn't like him?\nA.That's what I should like to say; yes.\nQ.That wasn't Goering's usual procedure, was it?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "JUDGE PHILLIPS", "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1137, "page_number": "900", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "A.In general, no. In general, ho simply withdrew himself from those people that he didn't like.\nQ.You mean he withdrew the people from him?\nA.Yes; he pushed them on to some other office. At any rate, he got them out of his presence.\nDR. BERGOLD:May the witness now go home to Darmstadt, or does the prosecution wish him further? I personally do not.\nMR. DENNEY:No, Your Honor; I do not.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Well, the witness is excused and is at liberty to do whatever he wishes.\nTHE WITNESS:Thank you.\nDR. BERGOLD:Your Honors, I shall now take up the reading of a few documents. I turn first -- I should like to read from Document Book No. 1.\nTHE PRESIDENT:You mean the defense document book?\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes. Defense Document Book No. 1. This is Document No. 221, a letter, Sievers' letter to Brandt, 26 August 1942, page 93, I believe, the next to last document in my book. Through an error on the part of my secretary, the list of my exhibits was not submitted to me and could I please know which was the last exhibit number that I put in?\nJUDGE PHILLIPS: 27.\nDR. BERGOLD:Then this is Exhibit No. 28. I shall now read it.", "speakers": [ "THE WITNESS", "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1138, "page_number": "901", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "\"Ahnerbe Reich business leader 26 August 1942, Berlin Dalehn SS Obersturmbannfuehrer. Dr R Brandt Personal Staff Reichsfuehrer SS Berlin SW 11 Prinz Albert Strasse 8.\n\"Dear Comrade Brandt, Dr Rascher writes to me: on the 14 7 the Reich fuehrer SS ordered me to send my report about the Low Pressure Chamber Experiments to a ObersturDibannfuehrer Brandt and to remind Dr Brandt at the same time that the Reichfuehrer SS had ordered to send this report together with an accompanying letter of the Reichsfuehrer SS to Milch the last mentioned letter stating that Milch should call Romberg and myself to his office so that we might report to him. I carried out this order on the 20 7. As I have not heard about the matter again to date and was also not asked to Milch or to General Staff doctor Hippke I assume that this report was been submitted without me. Could you ascertain that?--I do not share this suspicion of Raschers, for who but Rascher would report on this matter? I assume that you have sent this report to Milch but that Milch has not yet found the time to set a time for the report. Have you heard anything of this matter? Dr Rascher further gave me the approval for the publication of the purely scientific results. I shall ask him again in what form he would imagine this publication to appear, how comprising T think that we can then give our approval if the publication will be in the due form ... I am very truly yours, Heil Hitler, Siever.\"\nDR. BERGOLD: I have submitted this document, your Honor, because in the Prosecution Book at Exhibit 95 --- correction, Exhibit 10$ -Document 222, 222 a letter of October 29th, 1942 was submitted, in which one Brandt, namely the Brandt who was a witness here, writes back to Siever stating that Himmler had not yet sent the report on the high altitude and freezing experiments to Milch. It is in Document Book No. 2 of the Prosecution, under the date of October 29th 1942. It appears that this is a report on the \"Freezing Experiments\" but this is erroneous.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1139, "page_number": "", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "This letter of October 29, 1942 is the supplemental letter to this letter here of the 26th of August. I read this letter. It is Exhibit 109. It is in $B document No. 222, page 161. It is page 141 of the English Document Book. I read: \"To: SS-Obersturmbannfuehrer SIEVERS. It relates to the document I just read. \"Berlin-Dahlen, Puecklerstrasse 16\", and it reads further as follows: \"Dear Comrade SIEVERS: SS Unterstrumsfuehrer RASCHER's supposition is not correct. The letter of the Reichsfuehrer SS by which he transmitted the report to General Field Marshal Milch was only signed and sent off a few days ago...I assume that the General Field Marshal will in the near future take the necessary steps on his own initiative and send a short note about it to the Reichfuehrer SS....I enclose a copy of the Reichfuehrer SS's letter dated 23 August 1942 for your information.\"\nIn other words, it is quite correct that the date of 29th of October can not be correct. Therefore I inspected the photostatic copy of this letter and it is my opinion that the number on this photostat copy is not a \"10\" for the tenth month, but an \"8\" for the eighth month:\nAUGUST!\nIt was unclear in the document, but the whole contents show that 901 A document 222 was written in August, and that this report therefore is not a matter of freezing experiments but only a matter of high altitude, which was discussed in this writing of the 29th of August 1942.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1140, "page_number": "902", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "Therefore this letter of the 29th of August was the only letter of the Reichfuehrer SS with a report on these high altitude experiments to Milch. There was not another report made in October.\nI read now from my Document Book No. 2. This book has been given to the Court. I read the excerpt 7/43 from the Conference on the 26th and 27th of October 42, the Freezing Conference. This is Exhibit No. Ml 29. It is from page 39 of the German Document Book; it has no document number. It is immediately subsequent to Document No. 288. This report reads: \"Restricted 188, Airforce Medicine, By the Secretary of the Medical Service of the Luftwaffe\". Report on session 7/43 Report on a scientific discussion on the 26-27 October 42 in Nuernberg, on medical questions of distress at sea called by the Inspector General of the Luftwaffe and presided over medical specialist Dr. Anthony.\nFrom the Document No. 39, I read: \"The warming up after freezing to the danger point\" etc.\nYour Honor, my secretary made a mistake here. The reports were made by the man Mr. Hippke conferred with, Weltz, apparently had not been written into the report. I ask that he please be so kind as to add. it. This is a report of Dr. Prof. Weltz: \"We asked ourselves the question: which are the best physical conditions for the saving of persons who had been cooled to such an extent as being in danger of life. Experiments were carried on at our institute together with H I Wende and M Rodin and the experimental animals were rabbits, rats and guinea-pigs. In order to establish the negative or positive value of a particular treatment we first had to know their normal uninfluenced behaviour with respect to cooling.\nYour Honors you see all this is concerned with animal experiments. I now come to the actual report that matters here. On page 4 of the original a lecture by Professor Dr E Holzlooner.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1141, "page_number": "", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": ".. Prevention and treatment of cooling in water..Observations sea-distress have shown that at water temperatures below 15 degrees the body temperatures of the distressed persons decreases rapidly. After a few hours already loss of consciousness or death can result. Further observation of catastrophics at sea such as sinking of transports or warships have shown that sometimes danger to life exists even after rescue. Death has occurred oven after warming up which has not been explained so far. Up to now cooling experiments have been carried out on animals in order to watch vacu-motoric and chemical counter regulations. Experiments in correspondence with the low temperatures common during sea distress have been lacking so far\" Your Honor, you see that here only general experiences in the experiments were being reported on:\nexperiments which took place during the War, during the Catastrophe.\n902 A Preliminary investigations were carried out by Dr. Shuster showing that animals could only be expected to exist for a very short time in water under twenty degrees.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1142, "page_number": "903", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "I skip now to the next page omitting those animal experiments on page 33. \"It was now possible to carry out a series of experiments on human beings who had been saved after having spent considerable time in cold water. Your Honors, if the defendant had ever read these lines ho could never deduce from them that those were experiments on healthy people, but that they were experiences on men who had been rescued from a long stay in cold water. In other words, men who were rescued, who wore saved. Corresponding citations, arc duo to the cooperation of Dr. Rascher and Dr. Finger, they refer to exposure in water of from two to twelve degrees centigrade, the speed with which stiffness sots in is remarkable. It was observed that already five or ten minutes after falling into the water - I am not sure that the word here is actually ten -my copy is poor.\nI continue: \"An increasing rigor of the skeleton muscular system sets in which makes the moving of the arms increasingly difficult. It affects also the respiratory system, the inhaling deepens, exhaling is delayed. Furthermore, a strong discharge of siliva takes place. When planning and developing rescue equipment, these facts must be considered. Thus, for instance, it is very difficult to even at the beginning of the rigor to climb into a rubber dinghy, to inflate a oneman dinghy, rubber, or to operate signals equipment; for instance, to give hand signals or to shout, rigor is caused by reflex, and not, as many assumed by a contraction through cooling of the respective muscles. It stopped suddenly when death occurs. This shows that apparently dead people, who still show obvious rigor offer possibilities for resuscitation.\" A lay person cannot sec from here either that human beings were killed through experiments. We now know of the truth concerning the experiments, but a lay person could not at that time. I continue:", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1143, "page_number": "", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "\"Irregularly in the heart beat is to be found on experimenting on animals this, however appears, seems to be only in 903 A lower temperatures.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1144, "page_number": "904", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "According to that, the human heart would be endangered more than that of experimental animals. The impairment of the heart is caused by the following circumstances: 1. The strong increase of the viscosity necessitates a strong additional exertion of the heart. 2. The throttling of the vessels causes a flooding of the central areas. Autopsy reports concerning death caused by freezing in water after sea rescue uniformly shows a strong flooding of tho heart.\" Your Honors, autopsy reports, after distress in sea, indicate that laymen must road and understand that under discussion are people who had been rescued and cut open. It reads hero: \"Autopsy after rescue work, but not after experiments.\" The lay-observer Milch could not recognize from this that it was dealing with experiments, If he had read the report, I have proved however that he has not even read it.\nI continue: \"There are indications that not only the supply of blood to tho skin and sceleton muscular system is choked during the strong and fast cooling, but also that in contrast to the law of gastrymorath there is a reduction of the blood supplies to kidney and intestines tales places that there is even a strong contraction of the spleen. All of this will increase the total resistance to the blood circulation and pumping of tho blood to the heart. 3. It is to be taken into account that under the influence of the low blood temperature, the heart itself will become strongly hypodynamic. In animal experiments it has long been proved that by overloading and cooling of the isolated heart pulsation of tho auricles can be produced.\" Your honors, here again the lay observer must say since tho first sentence contains only conjecture and not an expression of certainty; ho must only assume that those are not human experiments, and there is a series of scientific matters which probably will be unduly unintelligible to him.\nI continue then: \"The examination of tho heart enables us to make a statement as to the question of the rescue collapse. We had heard previously that the 904 A rescue collapse occurred in mass catastrophes.\"", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1146, "page_number": "905", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "In other words, here a lay observer would not draw any connection with an experiment that was fatal.\nI continue: \"It occurs when the temperature of the animals falls below a critical point or if extreme physical effort has proceeded the cooling.\" In this connection it should be pointed out that the rescue collapse has appeared mainly in accidents in which some people swam toward and objective f r a long period without the necessary floating equipment, as for example life jackets. In such cases after heart damage is indicated by pulsation, the strain on the heart has caused a failure after the rescue.\" Your Honors, a lay observer could not relate this last sentence as a fatal experiment, but only to the conditions that prevail in mass catastrophes in which the people swam toward some goal. This too did not happen in experiments.\nI continue: \"The symptoms of speedy cooling are therefore the negative of a collapse when there is bleeding on the surface. Such a collapse has previously been feared to set in during warming up and therefore, frequently a slow warming up has been advised or proscribed, for such death after warming had been tied to such bleeding. Since it has been shown that here too direct damage to the heart is in the foreground, these theoretical doubts will be eliminated. It can be seen that as a. result expedience of the speeding up of warming up \"with animals, the results obtained, have encouraged a corresponding procedure with human beings.\" You can see \"with What care this is being expressed here. As a result of the animal experiences, have encouraged a corresponding procedure with human beings. No lay man observer could think that human beings were being slaughtered by the thousands.\nI continue: \"It was shown that water baths, not exceeding forty degrees centigrade not only speeded up the return to normal temperature but could also save lives when heartfailure set in. persons treated by that method have never been observed to be in danger.\" These are the main points of Holzloeners report.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1147, "page_number": "906", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "I road now: \"Discussion Lecture of the infamous Dr. Rascher, page 47 in addition to Holzloehner's statements, there is a report on observation according to which cooling of the neck region alone, even if it lasts for several hours results only in slight, up to ton degree, centigrade drops of the body temperature without a change of the supply of blood, or of the functioning of the heart. Temperature of the rectum was measured in the stomach whereby complete agreement was obtained. After taking cold shower it was revealed that the whole body temperature dropped more quickly. Temperature drops more quickly after drinking alcohol.\" On taking Dextropure, a sugar compound, the temperature sinks at a lower rate than in the sober starts or that produced by alcoholic intoxication. Hot infusions of ten percent solutions of dextrose, medical sodium chlorine solutions had only temporary affect.\nThat is all that is to be found in this report, that concerns Rascher. If the defendant, a lay person, had read this report he could not deduce that there had been any cruelties or fatal experiments. He could never suspect that men wore killed in this fashion.\nOn page h8 of this report there is a statement by one Doctor Wetzler which is interesting because he too experimented on human beings and no prosecution over held the opinion that these wore illegal and Dr. Wetzler and his collaborators were not charged by any tribunal. I road: \"In the course of the climate chamber test described earlier, I started together with Dr. Sauer on a series of experiments with rewarming human beings after cooling. The statement by Holzloehner and Weltz cause me to make a brief remark. In doing so I am over-coming my misgivings to present to you questions concerning the series of experiments that had to be interrupted for the time being because a large cooling machine is being installed.\" These too were experiments on human beings absolutely harmless in nature. Concluding page 48, I read: A statement by a Mr. Grosse Prokop. It roads \"The elucidations of Dr. Holzloehner anew make it appear debatable how far we are justified to transfer the experience of animal experiments to human beings but all the same close agreement is evident.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1148, "page_number": "", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "Even if quantitative differences exist in many respects, fundamental differences are not found, we believe that also in men the decisive cause for death is the progressive inactivation cf the heart and the medulla oblongata. Those changes in the reaction of vital organs can also be seen in the encephalogram recorded by Mr. Palme.\" Also this Gentlemen apparently did not notice that experiments on men were being carried out but thought that one had gone to experiments to human beings in a harmless way after experimenting on animals.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The Tribunal will suspend until tomorrow morning at 0930, 12 February 1947.\nTHE MARSHAL:The Tribunal will recess until 0930, 12 February 1947.\n906 (a) Official transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America, against Erhard Milch, defendant, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 12 February 1947, 0930-1630, Justice Toms presiding.", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1149, "page_number": "907", "date": "12 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-12", "text": "THE MARSHAL:The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal 2. Military Tribunal 2 is now in session. God save the United States of America and this honorable Tribunal.\nThere will be order in the courtroom.\nTHE PRESIDENT:I have arranged with Judge Beals of Tribunal number one that any defendants in that case who are to be witnesses in this case can be called on Friday and Monday. That court will not be in session on Friday or Monday, and therefore the defendants in that case will be available on those two days as witnesses in this case.\nDR. BERGOLD:I thank the Court for its kind efforts. Your Honors, before I call the next witness I should like to read first from document book 5-B, Exhibit No. 122,NOKW-419, at page 188 of the German document book.\nYour Honors, this document is not complete in your collection. What is missing from this document I have had written out and it is now being translated. However, since the Translation Branch is very overburdened, particularly in putting together the document books for Tribunal number one, I have not been able to receive this. I ask permission to read it now and shall submit, as I have done before, a copy to you later and to the Prosecution.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Very well.\nDR. BERGOLD:I shall read, then, from page 1 of this document 419 which I have before me. This is the interrogation of Dr. Weltz by Mr. M. Koch:\n\"Question: Have you ever thought when this talk with Hippke took place?\n\"Answer: Yes.\n\"Question: When was it?\n\"Answer: That must have been the summer of 1941.\n\"Question: 1941?", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1150, "page_number": "908", "date": "12 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-12", "text": "\"Answer: Yes. We were in the period 1941-1942, second half. It was a social evening in the Freising Palace, and during this evening Kottenhof informed us that this permission could be expected for Rascher. I believe--I don't know precisely whether or not I knew Rascher at that time; he was not yet a part of my office, and I cannot say that for sure. There was a discussion between Kottenhof and Hippke regarding the justification of such experiments. At first I was present as a listener only; later I took part in the conversation. Hippke then expressed his opinion very sharply that experiments on other persons and criminals could not be considered, but only experiments by physicians on themselves. Kottenhof expressed the opinion that now during the war we were obliged to make use of this other means also, and that in the final analysis criminals who volunteered also had an advantage from it.\n\"Hippke stuck to this point of view very tenaciously. I informed them, so to speak, of the opinion of international literature on this question, and expressed it as my opinion, that the basis of all experiments must always be experiments on themselves, but in special cases, first in my personal opinion and secondly, in the predominant opinion of the entire world literature, experimenting on criminals is justified.\n\"The discussion went back and forth in this way for quite a while, and finally they agreed on my point of view. Hippke then departed and said, 'Children, be careful.'\n\"Hippke was very reticent, and Kottenhof was somewhat more so, but neither of them was aggressive, if I may so express myself.\"\nI read now from the German document, page 184:\n\"Let me ask an intermediate question. What reason did you give to the Luftgau physician in order to justify Rascher's transfer?\n\"Answer: The telegram that he gave me stating that experiments in Dachau were to be kept secret from everyone.\n\"Question: You interpreted this telegram as a falsification?\n\"Answer: It was a telegram from the Reich Postal Office. I do not believe that Himmler telegraphed via the Reich Post, and I explained that.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1151, "page_number": "909", "date": "12 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-12", "text": "\"Question: Just a moment. If you had the impression that this telegram was a forgery, why then did you not, as a superior, take legal action against Rascher or at least disciplinary action?\n\"Answer: Because Rascher would immediately have been able, through his connections with Schnitzler, who was an SS Fuehrer, to got a true telegram for himself from Himmler.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1152, "page_number": "910", "date": "12 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-12", "text": "Question: And moreover you were afraid of the SS? Answer: It was clear that because of Rascher's dislike I was in danger of entering a concentration camp myself.\" Some three pages further at the bottom: \"Answer: The final commission he probably received or could have received from Milch. Milch could give direct orders to everyone. I have the impression that up to the time of my departure, that is to say, until Rascher left me, there wasn't any such commission and that those matters were only later clarified by Ruff. Question: Some sort of order must come to have the low-pressure chamber to Dachau. Answer: Ruff could send it himself. Question: Did the order come from above? Answer: The difficulty in answering your question lies in the fact that these relations, as I said in the beginning, changed. There were various rival struggles because in the \"C\" Office all wanted to keep all of its physicians for itself and Hippke assumed that all physicians were subordinate to him even if they belonged to the \"G\" Office. This subordination relationship was not entirely clear.\" Then another few pages: \"That is not the question. I have only the vague idea of Hippke. Why did not Weltz say that Rascher was no longer wanted? Why did not Weltz inform his immediate superior, a man with whom he seemed to be on pretty good terms? Answer: The difficulty was -- well, how shall I put it? Question: Permit me, doctor, in this case you could have said it quite well. You could have mentioned the telegram. You could have mentioned it even to Hippke. Answer: Yes, that would have seemed to me an interference in the cooperation between Ruff and Romberg which I initiated myself. If, on the other hand, I bring them together tomorrow and go to Hippke tomorrow Rascher will not be agreeable to that action. Question: I believe that Hippke would have said to himself that Weltz is an honorable man. On the other hand, he would have called Ruff back through the \"O\" Office. At the moment where Romberg complained about Rascher and, as I understand it, that Rascher had even turned himself into a murderer in the high-altitude experiments. He would have appealed then to Ruff. Ruff would have gone to Hippke and brought it about that the low-pressure chamber be used elsewhere.\"", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1153, "page_number": "911", "date": "12 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-12", "text": "I skip now.\n\"You have the following objection to Rascher of a personal nature? Answer: He put his father in a concentration camp.\"\nNow, the second question.\n\"This second reason alone would have sufficed to have convinced Hippke that the SS wanted such experiments made it should have made them itself. Why did you not speak to Hippke as a physician? That, in my opinion, would have been your bounden duty and why did you not for all of these reasons inform Hippke ? I can't understand that because of any fear of eventual consequences from the SS, Answer: That could not have played any role. Question: But explain to me your sin of omission, why you didn't inform Hippke. If you went to Hippke you could never have stepped in the back of Ruff, Answer: I didn't know that.\"\nIt's to be seen from this that Weltz whom Hippke appointed knew nothing of all of these things that were going on. The very conclusion of this document:\n\"To sum up, you did not inform Hippke of these experiments at Dachau? Answer: No. Question: are you absolutely sure? Answer: I am entirely certain. Question: And the reason? Answer: Because I had left. Question: Because you had left then and had just dropped the matter? Answer: There were not to be experiments on the part of my institute on the part of Ruff. Wherever I had achieved a right to supervise Rascher was part of my office. Otherwise, I wasn't interested in these experiments at all. Question: Now, one last question. One thing I cannot explain that you didn't find out that there were no fatalities in these high altitude experiments. No, I never found that out. Question: You didn't see the final report? Answer: No, I did not receive it. Let me add, Stabsarzt Lutz, who worked with me, did not know of this thing even in the year 1944 although he was well acquainted with Romberg and although he had travelled around extensively.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1154, "page_number": "912", "date": "12 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-12", "text": "That's how secret it was.\"\nThat's what I wish to read from this document. I now read from my Document Book No. 1. The chronological summary at the conclusion of the book in order to show the Tribune what, in view of Hippke's statements, what can be seen even from the available documents, to show that Milch really knew nothing about these matters. Exhibit 87, dated 15 May 1941, Rascher to Himmler. This was Rascher's first proposal to Himmler that experiments be made on human beings.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Just a minute, doctor. What exhibit number, please?\nDR. BERGOLD:This is simply a chronological listing and I have just mentioned Exhibit No. 78. If I want to give this exhibit a number I give it the number 30. I continue. Exhibit No. 80, dated 24 July 1941, Himmler to Rascher, gives his consent to this proposal. Then the talk between Weltz, Kottenhof and Hippke took place in which the gentlemen agreed on their procedure. Hippke was not able to state here that Milch ever knew anything about that. Exhibit 81, 5 April 1942, Rascher to Himmler, first report on high altitude experiments. It was secret. You will remember Hippke's testimony and the document according to which Rascher could not give any reports without Himmler's permission. Exhibit 82, 16 April 1942, Wolf to Hippke, requests for extension of Rascher's assignment. Hippke did this without bringing in Milch. Then on the same day 16 April 1942, Rascher's second report to Himmler on the high altitude experiments. Exhibit 83, 27 April 1942, a letter from Brandt to Rascher in which the entire report for Himmler was to be forwarded to Milch. Of the same day, Exhibit 84, 27 April 1942, Hippke to Himmler, in which it is stated that the forwarding of the request to extend Rascher's assignment is under way, this too remained unknown to Milch. Exhibit 85; 1 May 1942; Rascher to Himmler, third report on high altitude experiments was secret. Exhibit 87, letter of 20 May 1942, Milch to Wolf requesting the return of the high pressure chambers after the conclusion of the high altitude experiments.", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1155, "page_number": "", "date": "12 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-12", "text": "The report that Weltz has been assigned to experiments with ship-wrecked persons.\n912-A Hippke stated here on Friday that he gave no oral report of this to Milch, but only a short memorandum when he visited him.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1156, "page_number": "913", "date": "12 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-12", "text": "This, then, concluded those experiments. Thus, in my opinion, no proof has yet been brought that Milch knew anything of what went on in the experiments.\nI continue. Exhibit 89, 4 June, 1942, Milch to Hippke, proposal requesting further keeping of low-pressure chambers and extension of Rascher's assignment. Hippke stated regarding this that this was not an order, but simply a proposal.\nExhibit Number 90, 15 June 1942, Rascher to Himmler. Rascher reports on his talk with Hippke. He reports also that Hippke did not receive any further reports in view of Himmler's refusal to approve.\nExhibit Number 114, 28 July 1942, final report on high-altitude experiments.\nExhibit 95, 25 August 1942, Himmler to Milch, transmission of the report on high-altitude experiments.\nThen comes the letter from Sievers to Brandt of 26 august 1942, request as to whether the report of the high-altitude experiments is to be submitted to Milch. I submitted this yesterday as Exhibit 28 Ml.\nThen Exhibit 109 of the Prosecution, 29 August 1942, Brandt to Sievers, report on the transmission of the high altitude reports to Milch. This is the exhibit, which as we mentioned yesterday, was erroneously dated.\nExhibit 115, 31 August, 1942, Milch to Himmler, acknowledgment of receipt of the report on high-altitude experiments. You will remember Hippke testified that this was the first time that Milch was given more precise details on the experiments; but Hippke did not tell him of any fatalities.\nExhibit 91, 1 September 1942, Rascher to Himmler, report on the freezing experiments.\nExhibit 123, 11 September 1942, a film about altitude experiments was shown to the staff of Milch, whereby as has been proved that Milch was not present then.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1157, "page_number": "914", "date": "12 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-12", "text": "Exhibit 93, 22 September 1942, Himmler to Rascher, acknowledgment of the interim report on freezing experiments.\n10 October 1942, final report on tho freezing experiments. The witness Hippke testified he never received this. Please enter the Exhibit number on this which is 114.\nThis concludes the freezing experiments without Defendant Milch's finding out about the cruelties taking place in connection with them.\nNumber 95, 10 October, 1942, Hippke's letter of thanks to Himmler. In this connection let me point out and draw attention to an exhibit of the Prosecution which was submitted yesterday. It is Exhibit 130, 6 November 1942. Sievers characterizes this letter to be a refusal. I can quite understand that people not accustomed to German usage would have thought this letter was an acceptation. But from this note of 6 November 1942, it can be seen that in the language that was used was the language used in German at that time. This was a refusal. It is very well understood that this was a refusal and not an acceptance.\nExhibit 104 of the 16 October 1942, the final report of Rascher to Himmler on freezing experiments. Hippke said that this was never sent to him, nor could he have told Milch of it. There is no proof that final report of Rascher's was ever shown to Milch.\nExhibit 110, 21 October 1942, Sievers to Brandt, announcement of new low-pressure experiments which the SS carried out independently because as Hippke said yesterday, he never had the low-pressure chamber put at their disposal again.\nThen comes this freezing conference in Nuernberg on the 26-27.10. 42. I read the report yesterday which lay persons could not understand. It was probably published only during March or February 1943 for when Hippke wrote to Himmler on the 19 February 1943 it was not yet ready.\nThen comes Exhibit 111 of November 1942. It is a draft of a letter from Himmler to Milch. It has never been proved that this was sent off.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1158, "page_number": "915", "date": "12 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-12", "text": "Exhibit 118. The letter from Wolff to Milch corresponds with this draft. It is a request to release Rascher from his work. The defendant will prove that he was at this time not in Berlin at all. The letter was not sent.\nExhibit 120 of 19 February 1943 is an independent letter from Hippke to Himmler, thanks for SS cooperation.\nThen we have exhibit 119, the answer to Wolff's letter by Hippke, 6 March 1943. This was also done independently by Hippke and then on 14 March 1943, there is a talk between Hippke and Rascher on the letters released. This is Prosecution Exhibit 126. I think you will be so good to let me add that it can be seen from this that the defendant could not have known of it.\nI now ask that the Witness Foerster be called.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The Marshal will please bring in the Witness Foerster.\nBY JUDGE SPEIGHT:\nQ.Witness, raise your right hand and repeat after me:\nI swear by God, the Almighty and Onmiscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.\n(The witness repeated the oath.)\nJUDGE SPEIGHT:You may be seated.\nDIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. BERGOLD:\nQ.Witness, I ask you not to speak too rapidly because of the mechanical set-up here. I ask you, also, to pause after every question I ask so that the translation of the question can be concluded before you begin your answer.", "speakers": [ "JUDGE SPEIGHT", "Q.", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1159, "page_number": "916", "date": "12 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-12", "text": "DY DR BERGOLD:\nQWitness, state your first and last names?\nAHellmuth Foerster.\nAWhen were you born?\nA 19 April 1889.\nQWhat was your last position in the German Army?\nAAs a General of the airforce I was Chief of theAirforce Ministry. Before I answer further, I should like to make a statement. Is it not a fact I am called a prisoner of war, and under the protection of the Geneva Convention, which is recognized by the American Army. I was chained and brought here under a guard. Since I am neither a defendant, nor belong to the criminal organization, nor to war criminals, I regard this treatment as a personal insult, and ask for the protection of this Tribunal against a repetition of this behavior.\nDR BERGOLD:I have nothing to add to that myself. I wish to point out to the Tribunal I have heard that in case number one the Prosecution has already objected to the bringing here of witnesses in chains. I have not objected to it here because I want to await the decision of Tribunal No. 1. I appeal to the generosity of the Court that I should not have to do anything about it here.\nBY DR BERGOLD:\nQWitness, do you know the defendant Milch?\nAYes.\nQCan you recognize him in the room, and if so, will you point to him as to where he is?\nA (witness points to the defendant Milch)\nDR BERGOLD:I ask that the record show the witness has identified the defendant.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The record shall so show.\nBY DR. BERGOLD:\nQWitness, when did you have and how long have you had relations of an official nature within the Reich Air Ministry with Milch?", "speakers": [ "A", "DR BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1160, "page_number": "917", "date": "12 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-12", "text": "ASince theAutumn of 1939.\nQIn what capacity with Milch?\nAAs General -- or Inspector General of the Luftwaffe, and as General for the Special Task.\nQWere you Chief of the Luftwehr of the Air Ministry?\nANo, after my office, or my services as General for Special Task, I went to various other offices as a member of the German-French Commission in Weisbaden, as Military Commander in Serbia, as Commander General of First Air Corps, and then from the Autumn of 1942 on I was Chief of the Air Defense in the Air Ministry.\nQIn your last capacity was Hippke, Medical Inspector of the Luftwaffe, subordinate to you?\nAYes, he was subordinate to me in his person, and with my office in his business.\nQWitness, what report did Hippke make to you regarding experiments at Dachau?\nANone.\nQWas it his duty to do so, as a matter of fact?\nANo.\nQWas Hippke then in this respect independent of you?\nAYes, he was the Chief Medical Inspector of the Luftwaffe, and was in the purely technical field independent. He was subordinate to me only in respect to any military matters.\nQWitness, did you ever know anything about results of experiments that took place in Dachau?\nAI saw or knew nothing of experiments in Dachau itself. The Medical Inspector gave me a report on the basis of the medical conference that took place in Nurnberg, telling me that new ways had been developed for the treatment of persons who had been frozen, and he explained this therapy to me in detail without, however, telling me how it had been discovered. The matters did not interest me either. I was interested only in results of military matters.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1161, "page_number": "918", "date": "12 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-12", "text": "QDid you speak with Hippke about what you heard from him, or, reported to Milch on these subjects?\nAIt is possible that on occasions of a personal report to Milch I did mention these new treatments. I can, however, recall having done so, and that if this therapy existed it would not have been an occasion for a special report to the Field Marshal Milch. I am very sure that this report did hot take place, but it might have been incidental to some other personal report or conversation. That is possible.\nQThank you. If it did happen, you only reported on what you knew yourself of the results?\nAOf course.\nQWitness, an affidavit has been submitted to the Tribunal by one Mr. Schroeder. It is in document book, the Prosecution Document DockNOKW 126. It is exhibit number -- it did not receive any exhibit number from the Prosecution so far as I can see, and according to my imagination it is on page 25 of 5-B. Whether the number is correct, I don't know. That is, Exhibit 107.\nMR DENNEY:It is page 137 of the Document Book in my opinion.\nBY DR BERGOLD:\nQI show this affidavit as of Dr. Oscar Schroeder, and look at the third paragraph which reads: \"When I was a prisoner of war, General Foerster told me that he was present at an interview between General Erich Hippke and Field Marshal Milch in the middle of 1942. At that time the continuation of the experiments which Dr. Sigmund Rascher was carrying out on human beings was discussed. Foerster declared that Hippke and he opposed to the continuation of these experiments, and while Milch supported their continuation.\" Witness, is Schroeder correct in what he said here, or incorrect?\nAThis statement of Dr. Schroeder is wrong. In my interrogation before Captain Koch I mentioned this matter, and asked that I be allowed to speak to the man who had made this statement, as that conversation took quite a different turn.\nQWhat was it?", "speakers": [ "A", "MR DENNEY", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1162, "page_number": "919", "date": "12 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-12", "text": "A That is to say, the conversation with Schroeder, which was in the prison in Now Ulm, in connection with a report before the court there. There was mentioned the same letter which Goering was said to have signed in connection with the same subject experiments. Personally I asked the medical inspector whether anything true in these reports, since I personally know nothing of them. In the course of this conversation Hippke's name, of course, was mentioned, because Hippke was at that time the medical inspector. I told Schroeder I considered it out of the question that Hippke could have taken part in any suck thing, on the basis of what I knew of his character, since I also know that he was a very religious person. In the course of this conversation I also expressed my personal opinion. I said I personally was an opponent of suck a thing, and could not understand them, understand people carrying out such experiments on living persons themselves. If they were criminals condemned to death, who, if they volunteered for this work, only would be given a chance if they survived the experiment of not being submitted to the condemnation they had received. In other words, I said in my personal opinion Hippke and I also would never lift our hands to such things, and, of course, didn't leave any doubt that he knew about these things; consequently, there is no true truth in his statement other than a subsequent discussion between me, Hippke and him.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1163, "page_number": "920", "date": "12 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-12", "text": "I asked the interrogator to confront no with Schroeder in order to clarify this matter, but this consultation unfortunately did not take place.\nMoreover, the third person who was allegedly there, Hippke, is here in Nurnberg, and it would be very easy to ascertain from Hippke whether this discussion took place or not.\nQ.I wanted to ask you, witness, Did it take place with Milch?\nA.I can state under oath that it did not take place with Milch.\nQ.I turn now to an entirely different natter. Do you know from your official connections that in 1944 efforts were being made and measures were taken to use Russian prisoners of war in flack and antiaircraft artillery?\nA.Yes, I knew that.\nQ.Can you tell me who ordered that? Did Milch order it?\nA.Who originally ordered it I can not say for sure. I assume however, that the OKW must have issued same such original order, which was given to my office by the General Staff of the Luftwaffe. I know for certain, however, that the order was not issued by Field Marshal Milch.\nQ.Witness, were these Russians brought to the flack artillery compulsorily or how?\nA.The measures that were ordered at that -- it was assured that they were only volunteers. Of course, we in the Luftwaffe objected to the use of Russians in flack. Our misgivings centered around the fact that it did not seem expedient that Russian prisoners of war, let us say even compulsorily, had to shoot at aircraft iron their own country, or, at any rate, if not to shoot at them, had to help out in the shooting at them. It could then happen that the people who were sent over for this work were volunteers. It was entirely certain that this was so, because the Vlassoff army was being built up at this time, and a large number of Russian prisoners of war reported voluntarily to enter this Vlassoff army.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1164, "page_number": "921", "date": "12 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-12", "text": "Moreover, we ordered that under no circumstances should Russian prisoners of war be used in batteries in which there was a possibility that they, these batteries, would fire at Russian planes. The batteries at which they were working were in the West exclusively or were for air defense in Middle Germany or Western Germany; that is to say, in regions whore Russian planes never flew.\nQ.Is it known to you that the voluntary Russian workers ever demanded that they should net shoot at their own planes?\nA.Yes, it is known to me that individual Russian prisoners of war made this condition before they volunteered for this task. I can further state that when I personally was present at flack batteries at which Russians were employed and when I assured myself of their actual activities and accommodations and so forth, although I spoke with a great number of prisoners of war, I never heard any complaint from these people that they were obliged to man these guns against their will.\nQ.Witness, it is true that these Russian prisoners of war when they reported for this work were released from imprisonment and were called assistants or auxilliary volunteers in the German army?\nA.What their legal status was, that is, whether from that moment on they were no longer prisoners of war, that I do not know. I know only that their designation was officially \"auxilliaries\" and that for these auxilliaries, with the abbreviation HIWI, there were particular regulations regarding them by the OKW stating that their personal status and their total treatment and payment should be such and such. In other words, it was ascertained what it should be. Whether they were officially released from imprisonment or not, they were at any rate, a special group for whom there were special regulations.\nQ.The Vlassoff army was an army led by a Russian general and manned by Russian prisoners of war; is that not so?\nA.Yes.\nQ.They were freed from imprisonment?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1165, "page_number": "922", "date": "12 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-12", "text": "A.That must be.\nQ.At any rate, these were volunteers in the Vlassoff army?\nA.I am sure of that.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Will you tell us the name of the army: We do not get it.\nDR. BERGOLD:Vlassoff, V-L-A-S-S-O-F-F. That was the name of the Russian general who led it.\nYour Honor, this is the same phenomenon on the German side of the war that occured on the Russian side with German prisoners of war. The Russians built up an army of volunteer German prisoners of war which called itself \"Free Germany\" under the command of General von Seydlitz. In other words, both the Russians and the Germans used volunteer prisoners of way against each other. It was a lamentable occurrence, but it was a reciprocal one.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:Dr. Bergold, I would like to know of the witness if he knows as a matter of fact whether these Russian prisoners of war manning the flack batteries were actually members of the Vlassoff army.\nDR. BERGOLD:Witness, do you know whether the Russian anti-aircraft members were members of the Vlassoff army, or were they a special group?\nA.When the Russian prisoners of war were given to us they did not belong to the Vlassoff army, but I do remember that in the course of time there was consideration of incorporating these anti-aircraft Russians in some way or another in the Vlassoff army. Whether this measure was over taken, I do not know.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:So that when they were actually placed in position at the batteries the first time, they were not then a part of the Vlassoff organization?\nA.The first time that they manned the batteries they were not members of the Vlassoff army, but let me add what I forget to say previously. It was laid down that under no conditions should the Russians man the guns themselves.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "JUDGE MUSMANNO" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1166, "page_number": "", "date": "12 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-12", "text": "They only had subordinate positions of one sort or another--transport of munitions or such things; in other words, they were in position in which they did not actually do the shooting.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:Whatever they did, it was an integral part of tho operations in handling of the batteries; is that correct.\nA.No, the central part of operating a flack battery is the calculation of the range; in other words, the ascertainment of where the plane is in relation to the direction of the barrel of the gun when the gun is fired, and the Russians had nothing to do with that.\nBY DR. BERGOLD:\nQ.Witness, at any rate, you and your office were informed that these were volunteers?\nA.That was specified to us.\n922-A Q. And none of the Russians whom you spoke to contradicted that?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "JUDGE MUSMANNO" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1167, "page_number": "923", "date": "12 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-12", "text": "A.No, none of them.\nQ.Witness, is it true that most of the Russians were made available by the OKW and only part were then transferred from the air armament?\nA.So far as I can remember today, there were about 50,000 Russians for this purpose at our disposal. This number was not, however, met by the OKW, I assume because there were not enough volunteers, since the actual number of prisoners of war would have made it possible to collect these men if they were not volunteers. As a matter of fact, we got about half of them, half of the 50,000.\nI then remember that the proposal was made that Russian volunteers from industry should provide the missing anti-aircraft units, but I do not know to what extent this took place. I do recall however that Field Marshal Milch at that time was strongly against this measure on the grounds that the Russians being employed in armaments were needed there and that he could not forego them.\nQ.Witness, I now come to another question. Do you know that Milch made continual efforts to keep the German workers who were working in the air industry from being inducted into the army in order not to lose them for his armaments works?\nA.I know of one case which, as far as I am not deceived by my memory, took place in 1943. At that time the OKW had ordered that certain annual classes of men were to be called for active military service. There were about 40,000 men among this number who were working in the air armaments industry. Field Marshal Milch protested the induction of these men. The order, however, originated from OKW, from a high office, and for this reason it had to be carried out. I could not bring it about that these men were made available to me by Milch. I consequently went to Goering personally and asked him to decide the question. Goering did agree with the reasons that Milch put forward and ordered that the men in the air armaments should remain there.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1168, "page_number": "924", "date": "12 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-12", "text": "On the other hand, Goering was not able to oppose an order from the OKW. Consequently, a way was found which, formally speaking, seemed to fill this order. That is, these 40,000 men were officially made into military formations but then were immediately given leave and continued their work in industry.\nQ.Witness, do you know of a case in which a larger group of people were returned to work in this same way?\nA.Yes, there was a contingent of 12,000 to 15,000 men who were in the air intelligence and who were commanded to return to industry, to the electrical industry, for the manufacture of radar equipment and other important electrical equipment that is used in aviation or flack. Here, also, a great effort had to be made to extract these men from Milch to be used with the troops.\nQ.Thank you. Witness, did Milch have opportunity to issue orders to the OKW; OKH, or OKL?\nA.No, in no respect.\nQ.Did he have an opportunity to give orders to the military offices in the occupied territories?\nA.No.\nQ.Did he have the opportunity to punish, hang, or kill or shoot foreign workers or prisoners of war?\nA.No. Foreign workers were there in a purely civilian capacity and were under purely civilian authority. Prisoners of war were in no way under the orders of Field Marshal Milch but were employed by other offices over which Milch had no control.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1169, "page_number": "925", "date": "12 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-12", "text": "Q.Do you believe that, for instance, a Stalag Commander would have accepted an order from Milch to shoot the Russian prisoners of war or to hang them?\nA.No; I do not believe that a Stalag Commander would have carried out an order of that sort under any circumstances.\nQ.Because Milch was not his superior?\nA.Yes.\nQ.Is it true that, in the German army, every sentence of death must be approved by the highest commander?\nA.When you say \"highest commander\" you mean the Reich Marshal, namely Goering?\nQ.Yes.\nA.This order die exist at the beginning of the war. This right was delegated to air fleet chiefs but perhaps even before the war this right was taken away from the air fleet chiefs and Goering reserved for himself the right to approve every death sentence. I can say that so definitely because the man through whom these matters went was subordinate to me and all cases in which there was a death sentence requested went through von Hammerstein and through me, so that I had the opportunity to take a position on these matters before Hammerstein submitted these matters to Goering.\nQ.Milch had no influence in this respect?\nA.No. This was an immediate sentiment since I was ordered to report on such matters to Goering directly without reporting to Milch what I was doing, which I did, of course.\nQ.Mas Milch Goering's total representative at any time?\nA.I can remember no case. I know, on the contrary, that Goering, at those times in which Milch was officially at his headquarters -namely, when he was, on leave and so forth -- nevertheless carried on business as before. He also reserved for himself the right, officially, in these cases in which he wished someone to represent him completely -- he would order him specifically in that case -- but I know of no single case in which Goering issued such an order.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1170, "page_number": "926", "date": "12 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-12", "text": "I also know that Milch was never appointed as Goering's full representative. Let me add that Goering appointed officers according to his own choice as representatives in particular cases with no regard for rank or order.\nQ.I shall now show the witness the draft of an authorization to be Goering's deputy, of 1944. I ask the witness to read this document and to tell me whether he has ever seen it, or whether it was ever valid?\nTHE PRESIDENT:The witness may read the document during our recess, which we will take at this time.\nTHE MARSHAL:This Tribunal will recess for 15 minutes.\n(a recess was taken).", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "Q.", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1171, "page_number": "927", "date": "12 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-12", "text": "THE MARSHAL:Tribunal No. 2 is again in session.\nBY DR. BERGOLD:\nQ.Witness, you have taken note of the affidavit; has this affidavit ever gone into effect?\nA.No.\nQ.According to the state of affairs, and in relation to the relationship between Goering and Milch, do you think it is possible that in June, 1944, such a power of attorney was given to him?\nA.This power of attorney I saw for the first time today, and as I knew the things as they were at the time, I am very surprised at the document. This power of attorney would give power to Milch which he never would be able to carry in to effect because it interferred so much with the competence of other high offices that Milch would not have been in a position, even with such a power of attorney from the Reich Marshal, to take measures of such an important nature which were set out in the power of attorney. I can only call this document an order which was given in complete disregard of the real state of affairs; and I know that I can say this with certainty: that Milch never made any use of that power of attorney. If Milch should have been given such wide powers as are set out in the document; if he should have been able to carry them out, then he would have been in a position to carry out plans in the field of air armament; but the contrary was the case. I think this power of attorney is nonsense; and I may doubt that the man who wrote the power of attorney was completely normal, and he submitted the document without any real knowledge of the state of affairs. I may say that such powers of attorney at that time were issued quite frequently, and the men who issued them were not aware of the extent of the possibilities.", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "A.", "Q." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1172, "page_number": "928", "date": "12 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-12", "text": "Q.Witness, is it not true that in June 1944 Milch was dismissed from his offices by Goering?\nA.In June 1944 although an official dismissal had not taken place, I cannot recall the precise dates, in any case the relations between Reichmarshal Goering and Field Marshal Milch were such that that alone makes the issue of that power-of-attorney of such wide powers completely impossible.\nQ.Witness, do you know whether building companies were under the order of Milch and of what type these building companies were?\nA.Building companies were part of the Luftwaffe. That is to say, they were made up of those who were no longer suitable for armed service, as the name says, used mainly for construction purposes. It's true that Milch at his request was given, I believe, a building battalion which, at first, had the task to build a worker's settlement from wooden huts near Hagen. When this task had been completed this building battalion was left to the Field Marshal who passed it on to OT, particularly for the purpose to increase air-raid shelters in private dwellings -- to increase the safety of private houses in Berlin. Then the number of the building companies decreased because even the older classes were called up and as far as the more suitable men were concerned Mich had to give up this battalion this succeeded only after a certain time because it was his point of view that due to extensive enemy air-raids the protection of the population was at least as important as other military tasks.\nQ.Were foreign workers contained in these building companies or prisoners of war?\nA.This was a German group which consisted exclusively of Germann soldiers.\nQ.Thank you. Witness, do you know whether and in what manner Milch made efforts to transfer the production of spare parts to foreign territories in France.\nA.Some industries on the fringe of Germany -- the Armistice Commission, I know in the summer of 1940 to April of 1941 I represented the Luftwaffe on that commission.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1173, "page_number": "", "date": "12 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-12", "text": "I know that under my leadership there were negotiations 928A with the French part of the Armament Commission in order to fulfill a wish of the Reichsmarshal to make available the French air armament industry for German purposes.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1174, "page_number": "929", "date": "12 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-12", "text": "In these negotiations it was seen that this wish, which the Reichsmarshal exercised a certain pressure to fulfill, wasn't possible for this reason; the factories, the French factories, which worked to produce aircraft were not only in the occupied part of France but also many of them were in the so-called Free France. Occupied Franco could not, without the help of what I called the Free Zone work. It was impossible that these two economic groups which depended upon each other not be torn apart but they should jointly work on that work. This could only be done through an agreement.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1175, "page_number": "930", "date": "12 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-12", "text": "This could only be done through an agreement in these negociations which I had with the French Government. It became possible in a friendly manner to conclude such an agreement. The French Government was inclined to support this agreement because I provided in the agreement that the French be allowed a certain amount of benefit of the distribution of products. There was a clause in there about the proportion which was to be five to one. The produced aircraft should be given to France or Germany respectively.\nThe French Government in opposition to the complete disarmament of the French Army had been given permission by the Armistice Commission to produce spare parts for anti-aircraft batteries to a certain extent in order to protect the Mediterranean district. For that purpose aircraft from French production should be used. I left the Armistice Commission in April, 1941, but I know that this agreement took effect in march 1941 to a much greater extent than anticipated. The proportion not five to one, but 1-1.\nSo, in effect, the proportion really became one to one because the French industry--\nTHE PRESIDENT: Just a minute, Will you please direct this witness's answer to something relating to the guilt or innocence of the Defendant Milch? His rambling testimony so far does not even remotely concern it.\nQ Witness, I will now ask you to explain to us whether Milch worked on these negotiations and gave his approval?\nA When I worked on the negociations, Udet was still Generalluftzeugmeister and as far as he took part in these negociations, I dealt with Udet or his chief. Udet, who was really a subordinate, took part in these negotiations. That was a matter for the Luftfahrt Ministry.\nQ I now come to the point of terror aviation. Do you know details as to what attitude Milch took about this?\nA I believe in 1944, in the summer, I was ordered by the Reichsmarshal to issue an order to the Luftwaffe which contained a clause saying that soldiers of the Luftwaffe must not protect enemy pilots who made emergency landings or bailed out and who were exposed to the just indignation of the 930-A German population.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1177, "page_number": "931", "date": "12 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-12", "text": "I refused to issue that order. I reported to Fieldmarshal Milch. Milch listened to the reasons I gave for not issuing the order, and agreed with me Q Thank you.\nA He adhered to my motives.\nThe word \"Armament Industry\" was a very extensive term. Can you give the court an example as to what was meant in Germany by this term? Can you give an example from your own life?\nA Yes, indeed, I can. I owned a tile yard in Silesia which served purely for peaceful purposes. During the war it was used as a socalled subsidiary works.\nWithout being a part of the armament industry, it would not have been possible to keep up this factory, to get workers and so forth. From this example, I can discuss that the name \"Armament Factory\" was relatively wide, and that the term \"Armament Factory\" was not by any means given these works which actually produced armaments; but also works which served the purpose of keeping up actual armament production.\nQ Witness, were you in charge of DVL?\nA No.\nQ Did you know that the transfer underground of armament plants was ordered by Goering? Who ordered it?\nA This was done by order of Goering.\nQ I would like to ask one more question about the character of Milch. Did you know that he frequently used strong language and was fond of threatening people with shooting or hanging?\nA Yes. That is well known to me, but according to the saying, his bark is worse than his bite. We did not take much notice. No person threatened with hanging or shooting ever actually suffered that fate.\nQ Was it well-known among your circle that you should not take notice of these words?\nA That was very well known.\nQ Once he was over his indignation, did Milch apologize for these expressions? Did he apologize to the people concerned?", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1178, "page_number": "932", "date": "12 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-12", "text": "A I cannot say in every case, but he was firmly convinced that he said many things which he did not mean. Oh, yes, in one case, he apologized to General Martini, gave an explanation and the matter was settled.\nQ Did these expressions of indignation increase after his accident at Stalingrad?\nA That and the failure of his armament industry to succeed, perhaps made him very excitable and tense after 1943 DR. BERGOLD: Thank you, Witness. I have no further questions. I put the witness at the disposal of the prosecution for cross-examination.CROSS-EXAMINATION.\nBY MR. DENNEY:\nQ Witness, when did you enter the German-French Commission?\nA When the German-French Commission was formed. That was in my opinion, in June 1940, after the campaign of that year.\nQ After the French capitulation early in June?\nA Yes, After the capitulation of France.\nQ You stayed there until April 1941?\nA After April 17, 1941, yes that is right.\nQ Then what did you do?\nA Then I was a military commander in Serbia.\nQ Were you commanding on air float there?\nA No.\nQ What were your duties?\nA As a military commander, I was responsible for the Military security of the country and the administration of the country of Serbia.\nQ That is, you had something to do with the occupation forces?\nA Do I understand by \"occupation forces\" you mean the Germans standing in Serbia?\nQ Yes.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1179, "page_number": "", "date": "12 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-12", "text": "A No. At my time, the divisions in Serbia were under Fieldmarshal Weichs. My activities were restricted mainly to the civilian administration.\n932 a", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1180, "page_number": "933", "date": "12 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-12", "text": "QHow long did you stay there?\nATwo months.\nQThen what did you do?\nAI was then commander general of the FirstAir Corps at the time in France, and at the beginning of the Russian campaign in Russia.\nQWhere were you stationed?\nAThen in East Prussia; later on in the Baltic countries, and in the end in Charkow.\nQHow long did you stay there as commander of the First Air Fleet, or First Air Corps?\nAUntil September 1942, that is to say, up to that point; then I became Chief of Air Defense in the Reich Luftfahrt Ministry.\nQDuring that period there when you were with the First Air Corps, you were actually the Commander-General?\nAYes.\nQAnd that terminated in September 1942?\nAYes.\nQWhen you entered the Air Ministry in Berlin, Hippke was subordinate to you was he not?\nAYes.\nQAnd Milch was your superior?\nAYes.\nQAnd Goering was Milch's superior?\nAThe Reichmarshall.\nQThe Reichsmarshall Goering?\nAYes.\nQDid you ever attend any meetings of the Central Planning Board?\nANo.\nQDid you ever attend any meetings of the Jaegerstab?\nANo.\nQYou never attended any of the Fuehrer's conferences?\nANo. That is to say, no, not a conference.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1181, "page_number": "934", "date": "12 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-12", "text": "the Fuehrer in 1938. When I was commander of the air division in Greifewald visited the division for one day and this was not a conference but merely a military inspection.\nQWhat I refer to, what was called a Fuehrer's conference, about which you probably heard?\nANo.\nQWhen these Russian prisoners occasionally were assigned to the German Anti-aircraft guns, you didn't know what their status was, whether they were prisoners of war, or whether they had been discharged, or what their actual status was?\nANo, except these were assigned to us as prisoners of war. Their treatment, their food, their pay, their clothes, or their personal status was regulated in a special way, their relations wore always regulated. I assume that from the start they were still prisoners of war, because on their tunics they wore the emblem so far as I know of \"US\" which signified prisoners of war. As I have already told my counsel, it was intended to lead this formation somehow into the Wlassow's Army. I cannot remember whether these orders were actually executed or carried out, or not.\nQDo you recall what they were paying when they first came to you?\nAWhat wage they were given I don't know. I only know they were paid but I don't know how much. They were also given special privileges, as a certain number of cigarettes, and special food, and so on. They were certainly separated from the masses of their fellow prisoners for special privileges.\nQAnd you said that you believed fifty thousand Russian prisoners were supposed to be at your disposal but actually you got a number somewhat less than that?\nAYes.\nQHave you any idea about how many you did have?\nAThe figure was perhaps a strict one-half, which would have been strictly twenty-five thousand, and there were roughly about eight or ten heads at one battery -- gun battery.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1182, "page_number": "935", "date": "12 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-12", "text": "Q.So far as you can recall, there were only twenty-five thousand of them, and at these gun batteries were eight or ten of them assigned thereto?\nA.Yes, I would say eight, ten or about twelve, the exact figures I can not recall.\nQ.And so far as it was possible for you to say, they were employed in France where they would not have to shoot at their own planes?\nA.That was our order.\nQ.Of course, it might be a little bit difficult at night if a Russian plane came overhead to know whether they were firing at it, or at an English plane, or an American plane. The planes certainly did not have anything in their radar that would tell them whether they were Russian or not?\nA.The Russians trusted to our general judgment. They did not go so far as East Prussia in their operations. Only in the last year of the war, then did the Russian front push westward in isolated cases, pushed a little farther, but that was only the last month of this war, in central Germany and southern Germany and Bavaria in the west of Germany there never were any Russian planes.\nQ.You stated that on all death sentences had to be approved by Goering. Does that mean death sentences of Luftwaffe personnel, or does it also include death sentences of prisoners who were held by the Luftwaffe?\nA.They were exclusively death sentences on members of the German Luftwaffe, that is, the German soldiers. The confirmation of sentences of prisoners of war was in my opinion not the responsibility of a commander of the Luftwaffe section. Quite generally the rule was that prisoners of war as soon as they had been committed to an offense which should have been punished perhaps by death were not to be sentenced by the troop commander, but the prisoners had to be handed over to the Security Service, and the Luftwaffe had no longer anything to do with it. I also know that a sentence of death against a prisoner of war never reached us through the ordinary channel, or was submitted to the Reichsmarshall.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1183, "page_number": "936", "date": "12 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-12", "text": "Q.So when you talk about Goering reserving the right to approve every death sentence, you are merely referring to the Luftwaffe personnel, of the soldier under him.\nA.Yes.\nQ.How many pieces were there in a German Anti-aircraft gun battery?\nA.That depended on the calibre of the battery; normally four guns; later on in cases of shortage of personnel the battery shrank to eight; smaller batteries of two centimeter; two point six centimeters were up to twelve guns. It depend on the purpose -- for what purpose they were to be used.\nQ.And in the German Army, unlike as for comparison the American Army, the Anti-aircraft is part of the Luftwaffe, is it not?\nA.That is a part of the Luftwaffe. That is, to say, the Army that was introduced in t he war, the Army had Anti-aircraft batteries at the times, but only light batteries, with a big mass of Antiaircraft guns were under the Luftwaffe.\nQ.That differed from the American army setup, where they were a sort of an organization known as the Anti-aircraft Battery, and also a part of the Coast Artillery?\nA.Yes.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1184, "page_number": "937", "date": "12 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-12", "text": "QAnd in your direct examination you also said that at the time this question of using Russian prisoners of war in the anti-aircraft batteries came up that the defendant was opposed to this use because the Russians employed in the armament industry were needed there and they could not be spared for the anti-aircraft work?\nAYes. Milch was opposed to this, to taking Russian prisoners of way away from armament factories for the purposes of anti-aircraft batteries.\nMR. DENNY:No further questions.\nDR. BERGOLD:May I put one more question to the witness, Your Honors?\nTHE PRESIDENT:Yes.\nRE-DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. BERGOLD:\nQWitness, I once more come back to the question of the confirmation of the death sentences. Is it not true that Goering reserved the right to confirm all death sentences passed by the Luftwaffe jurisdiction?\nAYes.\nQIs it not true that this Luftwaffe jurisdiction in some cases concerned civilians, such as workers of the armament industry?\nAIn my opinion, no.\nQBut you are not quite certain, are you?\nAI can not say for certain, but in my opinion the jurisdiction of the Luftwaffe dealt exclusively with members of the Luftwaffe. Should civilians be concerned and should they be sentenced by a Luftwaffe court in some cases, there wore perhaps special regulations. Normally, one may say that members of the Luftwaffe were subject to Luftwaffe jurisdiction and nobody else.\nQAnother question, witness. You said before that the armed forces, the army, had anti-aircraft batteries. Is it not true that the navy also had anti-aircraft batteries?\nAI did not mention it, but, of course, the navy had anti-aircraft batteries on their ships, and the navy also had anti-aircraft batteries for coastal protection.", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "MR. DENNY", "Q", "A" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1185, "page_number": "938", "date": "12 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-12", "text": "DR. BERGOLD:Thank you. I have no further questions of this witness.\nMR. DENNEY:No more questions, if Your Honor please.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The Marshal may remove this witness.\n(Witness excused.)\nDR. BERGOLD:May it please the Court, we should now hear the witness Neff, according to my plan. However, by the time he has come in and the formalities have been fulfilled, my questioning would be torn in half. May I therefore propose to the Court that it have the luncheon interval now in order to have a uniform interrogation afterwise?\nMR. DENNEY:I have no objection, if Your Honor please.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Well, the objective that we are aiming at is to get all other witnesses done and over with by Friday morning. We want the dock cleared for the defendants in Tribunal I by Friday morning. Let me ask you, Dr. Bergold -\nDR. BERGOLD:May it please the Court, I understand that very well, but at the moment there are hardly any witnesses at my disposal. The witnesses, Kalk, Vorwald, and Eberhard are not present. There is only the witness Hertel here now, and the witness Eschenauer. The witness Gauss has just arrived. I have not talked to him yet, and that would not be in context anyhow. Nobody else is not present yet.\nTHE PRESIDENT:They are not present?\nDR. BERGOLD:So that we shall have much too much time until Friday.\nTHE PRESIDENT:You mean these other witnesses are not here in Nurnberg?\nDR. BERGOLD:No, they have not arrived yet, Your Honor.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Well, Neff, is here and Hertel is here?\nDR. BERGOLD:Neff is here; Hertel is here, and Eschenauer is here. The examinations will easily be over with by Friday.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Well, if that is true, that is all that I am concerned with. We'll take the noon recess now until one-thirty.", "speakers": [ "THE PRESIDENT", "DR. BERGOLD", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1186, "page_number": "", "date": "12 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-12", "text": "THE MARSHALL:The Tribunal is in recess until 1330.\n(The Tribunal was recessed until 1330 hours.)\n938 a AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1340 hours, 12 February 1947)", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHALL" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1187, "page_number": "939", "date": "12 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-12", "text": "THE MARSHAL:Tribunal No. 2 is again in session,\nDR.BERGOLD (Attorney for defendant Erhard Milch):\nYour Honors, I ask permission to call the witness Walter Neff.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The Marshal will bring the witness Neff into the Court Room.\nThe witness will raise his right hand and repeat after me:\nI swear by God, the Almighty and Qmniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.\n(The witness repeated the oath)\nTHE PRESIDENT:The witness may be seated.\nDIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. BERGOLD:\nQ.Witness, can you speak slowly, and after my question make a small pause before you answer so that the interpreters can interpret my questions fully.\nWitness, please state your first and last name.\nA.Walter Neff.\nQ.When were you born?\nA. 22 February 1909; near Augsburg.\nQ.What was your last position?\nA.My last position was that of administrator of a factory in Dachau.\nQ.Do you know Milch? That is, personally from the time before the catastrophe of 1945?\nA.No, I do not know Milch personally: I did not know him personally during that time.\nQ.Did you see him for the first time here in Nurnberg?\nA.I had never seen him personally; I only read the name.\nQ.In other words, you do not know him.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "DR.", "A.", "THE PRESIDENT", "THE MARSHAL" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1188, "page_number": "940", "date": "12 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-12", "text": "A.No.\nQ.If I tell you that this gentleman here in the gray uniform, who sits across from you, is Milch, you still assert that you have not known him before 1945?\nA.I cannot ever recall having seen this man.\nQ.Witness on the 23rd of December, 1946, you delivered an affidavit; signed an affidavit for the Prosecution; do you recall that?\nA.Yes.\nQ.In this affidavit you said the following: Field Marshal Milch's name was frequently mentioned in Dachau; is that correct?\nA.Yes, that is correct; Milch's name was mentioned by Drs. Romberg and Rascher many times.\nQ.In what connection?\nA.When the question of transporting the so-called low pressure chambers came up, Milch's name was mentioned in this connection.\nQ.In what way did this take place, witness.\nA.I had the impression that Dr. Romberg was not in agreement with the experiments Rascher was carrying out, and had the intention of taking the cars from the campus as soon as possible. Rascher strove toward the opposite; he wanted to keep the cars in the concentration camps as long as possible. To what extent Rascher succeeded in keeping them there, that I do not know in particular.\nQ.In what way was Milch's name mentioned in that context?\nA.Dr. Romberg said that he would turn to Milch in order to bring it about that the cars were taken away. Rascher also said he would turn to Milch and if that were to no avail he would turn to Himmler so that the cars stayed there.\nQ.Was Dr. Hippke's name also mentioned in this context?\nA.Now, after I hear the name here I do seem to recall having heard it, but I cannot, for sure, say in what connection, but I have heard the name.\nQ.You further stated, \"I am sure that Milch knew Dr. Rascher.\"", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1189, "page_number": "941", "date": "12 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-12", "text": "Is that correct; are you really sure of that, and on what ground are you sure of that; or was that merely a conjecture on your part?\nA.So far as Dr. Rascher can be believed, Rascher must have been personally acquainted with Milch and in touch with him, for Rascher said that he would turn to Milch; and did once go away; whether or not he actually visited Milch at that time I do not know, nor do I know whether he visited Himmler.\nQ.Did Rascher tell you that he knew Milch personally, or did he merely say he wanted to turn to Milch?\nA.So fa.r as I recall, he simply said he would turn to Milch.\nQ.Then, witness, presumably you cannot say for certain that he knew Milch personally; you can only say that from this statement of Rascher; you deduced that he knew him personally; is that correct?\nA.That is correct; to be sure Rascher said that several times and said that he was going hither; then, after the cars stayed there longer than had been anticipated, I drew the conclusion that Rascher did know Milch.\nQ.But that was merely a deduction on your part?\nA.Yes.\nQ.How was it that the cars stayed longer -- when they were to be taken away?\nA.So far as I recall, they should have been taken away at the beginning of June. Then there was a delay, but I cannot tell precisely when they were taken away; it was, however, the middle of June.\nQ.You just said \"to the extent that Rascher could be believed.\" Did you ever have occasion to ascertain that Rascher did not always speak the truth?\nA.No, Rascher often told un-truths, and it was very difficult to discriminate between what was the truth in what he said and what was a lie. It was his boast.\nQ.What was the manner of speaking to say boast; the German word 'Renommieren' means to boast; renommieren, to exaggerate; is that the true way that I defined the word \"Renommieren\"?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1190, "page_number": "942", "date": "12 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-12", "text": "A.Yes.", "speakers": [ "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1191, "page_number": "943", "date": "12 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-12", "text": "DR. BERGOLD:Your Honor, I called the witness only for examination regarding his affidavit. I have no further questions once I have ascertained that his statement that Rascher certainly knew Milch was only a deduction on his part.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Do you wish to cross examine, Mr. Denney?\nMR. DENNEY:No, your Honor.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The Marshal may remove the witness.\nDR. BERGOLD:I ask permission of the Court to call the witness Haertel?\nTHE PRESIDENT:The Marshal will bring the witness Haertel into the Courtroom.", "speakers": [ "MR. DENNEY", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1192, "page_number": "944", "date": "12 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-12", "text": "BY JUDGE PHILLIPS:\nQ.Witness, raise your right hand and repeat after me: I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.\n(The witness repeated the oath.)\nPlease be seated.\nDIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. BERGOLD:\nQ.Witness, please speak slowly so that the interpreters may keep up with you. Also, please leave a short pause between my questions and your answers so that the question may be interpreted to its conclusion.\nWitness, please state your first and last name.\nA.Walter Hertel, H-e-r-t-e-l\nQ.Witness, when were you born?\nA. 26 February 1898.\nQ.What rank and office did you last have in the German Wehrmacht?\nA.I was General Engineer of the Luftwaffe in Fieldmarshall's Milch's staff.\nQ.Witness, do you recall, that roughly on the 11th of September, 1942, you were in the Reich Air Ministry and you saw there a medical film?\nA.I did see a medical film, but I believe it was later than that. I cannot remember the date precisely.\nQ.Do you know who attended the presentation of this film?\nA.No, I do not know. In general, on certain days, irregularly, films were shown in secret. They were technical films in which I was interested. I saw this film by accident without knowing what sort of film it was going to be.\nQ.Can you toll us what this film was about?\nA.The film portrayed an experiment, or tried to portray, a condition in which the fighter pilots might attain great altitude, and when, at these heights, they were told to bail out.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1193, "page_number": "", "date": "12 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-12", "text": "In the low-pressure chamber, a man was brought to the corresponding altitude, and at this altitude, he had to take off his mask. Then he was brought back to ground level and was removed from the low-pressure chamber. The experimental person became unconscious when he removed his mask at that altitude, and remained so until the end, when he was taken from 944a the low-pressure chamber.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1194, "page_number": "945", "date": "12 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-12", "text": "He manifested certain convulsions and cramps which, however, ceased shortly after that. Roughly, after 30 or 40 minutes, the experimental person was again entirely normal.\nQ.Witness, can you recall whether the experimental person wore a special suit from which it might be concluded what sort of person he was?\nA.It was said that these experimental persons were prisoners. At any rate, that is the way I recall it. They committed serious crimes for which they were condemned to death. This person could, by volunteering for this experiment, save his life.\nQ.Witness, was this told to you by the people who presented this film?\nA.Yes. It was at the conclusion of the film.\nQ.Did you have the impression that this was a cruel experiment which caused human beings considerable pain or suffering?\nA.No, because such experiments are necessary in aviation. It is necessary that these experiments be carried out in order to draw the correct conclusions regarding equipment. At least that is the way I see it.\nQ.So far as you know, were such experiments tried out by German physicians and German personnel?\nA.Experiments in the low-pressure chambers were carried on continually, particularly in order to ascertain the correct equipment for pilots and gain new experiences. I was also in the low-pressure chambers, and made such experiments myself.\nQ.Did you have considerable pain on this occasion?\nA.No.\nQ.Did you, too, become unconscious?\nA.No. I did not become unconscious at that time.\nQ.Yes.\nA.This was several years before the war. At that time we did not as cend to those altitudes.\nQ.It was perfectly clear from these films that these experimental persons became unconscious after the mask was removed?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1195, "page_number": "", "date": "12 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-12", "text": "A.Yes.\nQ.Witness, can you recall whether after the film was over, anyone stated 945a that more precise information on the film should not be given out because Milch was not present, or because the Reichfuehrer-SS had not previously given his permission?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1196, "page_number": "946", "date": "12 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-12", "text": "AI do not recall that remark. In general, these films which were concerned first in line with technical experiments, were secret.\nQWas there considerable interest in your office about these human experiments?\nAWe were simply interested in the technical and motor experiments at these heights. I never saw experiments of this sort again.\nQCan you recall whether Milch was present at this presentation of the film?\nAMilch was not present at this presentation.\nQThank you. Come now to the general sphere of armaments. Witness, do you know from what date on, Milch was concerned with war armaments? Was that before or after Udet's death?\nAIn November, 1941, Fieldmarshall Milch took over the office of G.L. General Udet was immediately subordinate to Goering.\nQCan you tell me, roughly, when Milch ceased his activities as G.L.?\nAHe withdrew in part on the first of March, 1944, when the Jaegerstab was founded. He left it completely in June of 1944 when the Jaegerstab was reorganized and the entire armament was transferred to Speer's Ministry.\nQDo you wish then to characterize the Jaegerstab period as a transition period?\nAYes.\nQCan you tell me the reason why, in your opinion, this was a period of transition or a necessary period of transition?", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1197, "page_number": "947", "date": "12 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-12", "text": "In my opinion Speer's ministry withdrew one after the other consciously, one branch or another from the Luftwaffe, so that finally at the beginning of the year of 1944 the Luftwaffe was no longer in a position to fulfill its task, without considerable participation an the part of Speer's ministry. The main factor in the armament or the basis of it in the sphere of the manufacturers lay in the hands of the Speer ministry. In this way at the beginning of 1944, on the 1st of March 1944, the GL was obliged to surrender first his fighter production, and. since the fighter production was about eighty percent of the entire Luftwaffe armament at that time, finally in June 1944 the remaining twenty percent had to be turned over to Speer. This was regulated in June 1944 by an order of Hitler.\nQ.Witness, with what you have just said, the facts apparently do not correspond; mainly, the fact that Milch was one of the chiefs of the Fighter Staffs; or was there another man who was practically the chief of the Fighter Staff?\nA.According to the regulations Sauer and Milch were chairmen of the Fighter Staff. In practice, however, the chairmanship was carried out by Sauer.\nQ.Is it correct when I assume that Sauer was at the leadership of the Fighter Staff?\nA.Yes.\nQ.Witness, what did Milch have to do with the Four Year plan?\nA.I am not in a position to give detailed information on this question because I an not so familiar with the organization of the Four Year Plan as to enable me to deliver judgment on that. It is my opinion that Milch had nothing to do with the Four Year Plan.\nQ.Were Sauckel and his officers subordinated to Milch?\nA.No, Sauckel was immediate subordinate to Hitler and received from Hitler personally his orders.\nQ.Is it true that perhaps Milch could exercise some influence on the execution of Sauckel's work. For instance, the recruitment, or transport, the recruitment or transport of foreign workers?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1198, "page_number": "948", "date": "12 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-12", "text": "A.No, so far as I can see, there was no possibility of giving Sauckel any instructions. There was no influence to be exercised on him.\nQ.Did Sauckel have instructions to report personally to Milch every month on his, namely, Sauckel's activities?\nA.No, I know of no such reports.\nQ.Could Milch give orders to the military or civilian authorities in the occupied territories?\nA.In my opinion, no.\nQ.Can you tell me in what way the aircraft industry recruited or received its workers?\nA.The request of the aircraft factories or firms went on one hand to the work offices and on the other hand to armament inspectorate. The labor offices were completely under Sauckel and armament factories were completely under Speer.\nQ.Did the GL, that is to say, Milch, have anything to do with the recruitment of concentration camp inmates for the aircraft armament or, who then did recruit them?\nA.The GL had nothing to do with the request for concentration camp inmates as workers of the armament industry. Those workers were provided by Sauckel, or the labor offices, Whether those were Germans or foreigners, the concentration camp inmates were not within the power of the position which he held. He had nothing to do with that.\nQ.Then at the time it was not within Milch's work of what decision to pass on all the individual firms?\nA.No.\nQ.Can you tell me what the functions of the Central. Planning were?\nA.When in the course of our discussions at the GL there was mentioned the Central Planning. These discussions concerned themselves almost exclusively with raw materials. Workers questions were taken care of by Sauckel, who in his own sphere of activity did not want to be interfered with in any way.\nQ.Within the framework of the GL there were technical conferences, were there not?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1199, "page_number": "949", "date": "12 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-12", "text": "A.Yes.\nQ.Within this framework was the request for workers discussed, or were only technical natters discussed?\nA.In these conferences numerable requests for workers were discussed because on the basis of the requests of the General Staff which the GL received it was calculated how many workers were necessary in order to carry out a certain plan, or any specific plan. These questions were, of course, brought up in these conferences. The requests for workers went through normal channels. That is to say, when a firm received an order, it turned to the labor office or to the armament inspectorate and from there the request went along the above mentioned channels.\nQ.In these meetings of GL were requests made for five workers, or did it only simply state one's needs in terns of how great it was?\nA.The conferences were held as only to the number of workers needed. It was important, of course, to the GL to get as responsible German workers as possible, but how the work group was composed, with the different importances, so far as I know, was never discussed.\nQ.Can you tell me whether during these conferences there was discussed the bringing in as many fine workers as possible so far as the slave labor was concerned?\nA.The main direction taken in the work of the GL, according to Milch's orders, was that \"finers\" were to be used at home. No German worker was to be out of the country. In other words, in view of the fact that a man works best where he lives, the GL wanted to confine the work in foreign countries where there was a possibility of determining the place of work of the worker where they lived. For instance, in France there were plants with German orders and the plan was to employ the workers living near there. That their work as such was done in France in order to make use -- in order to keep the air fleet at top potential. That is to say, that this directive existed for the reason that, if possible, no foreign worker should be brought to Germany but to use them at home in their own country.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1200, "page_number": "950", "date": "12 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-12", "text": "Q.Witness, what was the position of labor in the aircraft industry? Was it sufficient?\nA.The work situation in the aircraft industry was always poor. The numbers of requests were never met.\nQ.Now witness, Sauckel always mentioned very large numbers which he said he had put at the disposal of German industry. What can you say of this statement of Sauckel?\nA.Sauckel's numbers were, in my opinion, and according to my observation, never correct. They were never reached. Those numbers that were announced were never obtained.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1201, "page_number": "951", "date": "12 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-12", "text": "Q.Was that also Milch's opinion?\nA.Yes.\nQ.So far as you know, did he have any discussion with Sauckel on this subject?\nA.I have to think about that a moment. I believe I recall that there were discussions on this matter, but I cannot give details on the subject.\nQ.Thank you. How good was the work of the foreign civilian workers in the aircraft industry? Were they good workers or poor workers?\nA.In my previous capacity as chief for recruitment, I concerned myself in great detail with the effectiveness of foreign workers and I ascertained - and this has also been proved by what the firms said that the efficiency of foreign workers Was good.\nQ.What conclusion can one draw, in your opinion, from this? Can one conclude that they felt themselves to be slaves or that they were contented with their treatment?\nA.In my official trips to the firms I looked into the treatment, care and housing of foreign workers and in a few cases I also partook of the food that the workers ate. I can state that the care, housing and treatment of foreign workers were good.\nQ.That, of course, is true only in the field of the air armament industry?\nA.Yes.\nQ.Did you receive complaints on the part of foreign workers regarding poor treatment, or how did the foreign workers express themselves to you on these official trips?\nA.I heard of no complaints about poor treatment. I had talks with these workers. If they had had complaints, nothing was heard of it.\nQ.Do you know that the defendant also Carried out such visits and got information for himself in this way?\nA.Yes, I took part in a few trips with Field Marshal Milch and I saw and heard that Field Marshal Milch also talked with the foreign workers and inquired into their welfare.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1202, "page_number": "952", "date": "12 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-12", "text": "QWas he given any complaints?\nA.I know of none.\nQ.Did Milch have any punitive power over the workers in the aircraft industry?\nA.No, not over the industry workers, aircraft industry workers.\nQ.Not over the foreign workers either?\nA.No.\nQ.Could Milch condemn foreign workers to death, have them shot or hanged?\nA.No.\nQ.Could he put them in concentration camps?\nA.No.\nQ.Regarding prisoners of war, did he have any punitive power over them?\nA.No.\nQ.Could he shoot or hang prisoners of war?\nA.No.\nQ.Could he put them in concentration camps?\nA.No.\nQ.Witness, do you know of Himmler's regulations regarding foreign workers which he issued to police offices and the SD?\nA.No, I don't.\nQ.Do you know of Rosenberg's complaints to Sauckel about foreign workers?\nA.No.\nQ.Do you know of the reports concerning the treatment of Polish workers in Poland?\nA.No.\nQ.Were reports such as I have just mentioned in the last three questions submitted to the GL?\nA.Not that I know of.\nQ.Did you work closely and confidentially with Milch?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1203, "page_number": "953", "date": "12 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-12", "text": "A.Yes.\nQ.Did he tell you about his misgivings, doubts, and needs openly?\nA.Individual conversations he also let it be seen that there were considerable difficulties.\nQ.When he spoke to you so openly, did he let you know that he considered the war lost?\nA.It was difficult and dangerous to make such statements. Openly, of course, such statements were not made but I personally believe from several statements of an indirect nature that I heard him make that he was of that opinion.\nQ.You just said, witness, that your work with Milch was carried out well and in confidence, that the relations between you were good.\nA.Yes.\nQ.But you know that Milch very often had sudden fits of anger and threatened with killing, hanging, or shooting?\nA.Yes, That, of course, took place, but in this one must know Field Marshal Milch to understand. If something did not work out quite well, then very often Field Marshal Milch became excited and spoke most strongly, and he spoke very often of shooting and hanging. If everything that he threatened to do were carried out, I would not be sitting here myself.\nQ.He threatened you with shooting and hanging.\nA.Yes.\nQ.Although your relations were good?\nA.Yes.\nQ.Was that generally known in Milch's circles?\nA.Among the closer workers that, of course, was known and it was interpreted as it was intended -- that such and such a matter must be carried on at high pressure and that business had to be attended to.\nQ.After he had quieted down again, did Milch confess that he was sorry for having so expressed, himself? Did he more or less excuse himself or apologize?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1204, "page_number": "", "date": "12 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-12", "text": "A.Yes, later he said that he had not really meant it that way.\n953 a", "speakers": [ "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1205, "page_number": "954", "date": "12 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-12", "text": "Q.In the year 1941 were you already employed in the office of the GL?\nA.I came to the office of the GL on 1 November 1941.\nQ.Then you know the order of Goering regarding the exchange of 100,000 French prisoners of war from agriculture to the armament industry, or do you know this order?\nA.No, I know nothing of it.\nQ.Do you know that Sauckel and Ley had an agreement that the DAF, which was in charge of camps, should take over the direction of camps for foreign workers - the DAF, German Work Front?\nA.I recall that the DAF was in charge of the camps. When this agree ment was reached I do not know.\nQ.Was this measure to the advantage or disadvantage of the foreign workers?\nA.The foreign workers, so far as I could observe, were well treated and well taken care of.\nQ.Do you know that Goering frequently criticized Milch because reduction was too low; also that Goering had provided the workers necessary to achieve the required production?\nA.Yes. I remember particularly a trip of mine to Berchtesgaden with Milch. In this discussion Goering accused Filch most strongly of this.\nQ.Now did Milch defend himself?\nA.At that time I was commissioned to report telephonically to the offices of the GL and to ascertain the correct date on the situation. These data were available within ten minutes and were submitted to Goering but Goering did not accept them as valid. He said that our statis tics were false and incorrect.\nQ.Were those Sauckel's figures on which he based his contentions?\nA.Yes.\nQ.Was filch interested in the use of foreign workers? Die he give orders, for instance, that their wages should be lowered or anything of that sort?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1206, "page_number": "", "date": "12 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-12", "text": "A.No. The GL could issue no such regulations regarding the amount of wages.\n954a", "speakers": [ "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1207, "page_number": "", "date": "12 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-12", "text": "QYou stated previously that Milch made efforts to get German workers; can you tell me more about that?\nAGerman workers were supported or were given bonuses for particular efficiency. Additional payments were made.\nQWitness, you are not answering my question; what efforts did Milch make to get German workers?\nAWe fought for every single German worker and, when the supply of German workers became smaller and smaller, we made efforts to find workers in the Luftwaffe itself, for instance, the Luftwaffe Intelligence Service supplied six or seven thousand men for the industry, and further, workers who were about to be inducted into the armed forces were formally inducted, and then immediately put again at the disposal of the industry.\nQWitness, were these measure of Milch's carried out in order to protect the German workers or in order to employ as few foreign workers as possible?\nAIt was important to us to have as many German workers as possible and to keep them.\nQWhen, at the end of 1941 - autumn, 1941 - you took over office, were there foreign workers and prisoners of war working in the aircraft industry?\nAYes.\nQWas this true when Milch became GL?\nAYes; that was somewhat later.\nQWhat was the situation in armaments at the end of 1941? German conditions and enemy conditions in air armaments?\nAAt the end of 1941, the situation in armaments was such that General Udet had a lot of work to do. He based himself on the development of new models and for a time production itself was neglected and, for all practical purposes, did not rise since the beginning of the war.\nQWhat was the relation between German and enemy armaments production?\nAEnemy production was greatly superior to German.\nQThe sharp conduct of the GL was directed toward getting more workers to increase the production, or did it work out in a further sharpening of the enslavement of the workers? 955", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1208, "page_number": "956", "date": "12 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-12", "text": "AField Marshal Milch, after taking over office as GL, undertook far reaching measures in order to increase armaments production. Thus, the production in 1942 rose by 47 percent, so far as I recall, as compared with 1941, and in 1943 it rose another 35 to 37 percent as compared with 1942. This increase in production came about as the result of technical measures in the plants from early -- the increase in parts of production, and in making available the necessary technical means to the individual firms. The workers were not overworked in order to bring about this increase in production.\nQWitness, several witnesses have here stated that Milch wanted to build, primarily, fighters. Is it not true that he wanted to build, rather, bombers?\nANo; Field Marshal Milch, shortly after taking over office, ordered the fighter production program. We had at that time the plan of building 6,000 fighters a month, and had to work out that plan. This plan was turned down by Hitler, who said, on the contrary, more large bombers should be produced because he intended another aggressive war against England.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The Tribunal will take its customary afternoon recess.\nTHE MARSHAL:This Tribunal is in recess for 15 minutes.", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "A", "THE PRESIDENT", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1209, "page_number": "957", "date": "12 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-12", "text": "THE MARSHAL:Tribunal No. 2 is again in session.\nBY DR. BERGOLD:\nQ.Witness, the last thing you reported was that Milch thought there should be more fighters produced in the industrial plants than bombers. Was that due to his desire to defend the homeland, or for fighting purposes, offensive warfare.\nA.The reason for this program was that the homeland should be protected; and the evidence which we had was that the air armament of the former enemy countries was so strong that offensive warfare in the air was no longer possible; with those six thousand fighters which the factories were to produce,the homeland should be protected from air raids.\nQ.Witness, when Milch became Generalluftzeugmeister, GL, did he have to create a new organization; and what was the reason for this?\nA.The organization when he took over the office of the GL was a very difficult one Major General Udet was combined personally the chief of the technical office and at the same time the RCL. The consequence was that twenty-four offices,I believe there were twentyfour, were directly dependent upon General Udet personally, but it is impossible to supervise twenty-four offices by one person. In addition to that there was the fact mentioned by me before that Milch changed the organization according to his point of view. He coordinated several offices, that is to say, the planning board which was the basic condition for the organization, the technical office, which was in charge of technical developments and production, the Marshal's office and the industrial offices and the chief of those offices were dependent only to the person of Field Marshal Milch, and thus Milch had a much better survey of the work done.\nQ.Do you know that -- do you know when this organization was change -- when the Luftwaffe Research Institute was released and was put free at the disposal of the RCL?", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "A.", "Q." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1210, "page_number": "958", "date": "12 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-12", "text": "AThe research council was founded for them, and this research council in its work was quite free and was subordinated directly to Goering.\nQThat was different from Udets?\nAYes, it was.\nQWere these institutes directly subordinated to Baeumker under Udet?\nAYes, they were.\nQIs it true that Goering was the man at the time who was in charge for Udet?\nAYes, that is correct.\nQIs it correct that in the reorganization Baeumker was released and he went to Munich where he started an institute of his own?\nAYes.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1211, "page_number": "959", "date": "12 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-12", "text": "QWitness, within the framework of the activity were Russian prisoners of war ever used to load bombs on aircraft?\nASuch an order is not known to me.\nQWere they employed to carry ammunition?\nANo.\nQTo service anti-aircraft guns?\nANot on the behalf of the GL.\nQBut is it known that Russians were ordered to serve anti-aircraft guns?\nAI know that Russians were employed in anti-aircraft duties but I cannot recall where they came from - from which sector they were taken.\nQIs it known to you that Milch was opposed to this because he didn't want to lose those people as workers?\nAAs I said already, that at this moment I don't know where they came from I should have a little time to think about this.\nQCan you tell us what things belonged to the air armament? What this term was supposed to mean?\nAAir armament factories comprised first, aircraft producing factories, second, engine factories, thirdly, producing air intelligence instruments, four, firms of general equipment, five, factories producing ammunition and fire-arms, six, special ammunition factories, eight, ground equipment factories and in addition all repair shops of these various offices and factories.\nQJust a moment please. Witness, the prosecution has submitted a document - this is the report by Himmler of 9 March 1944, correspondence between Goering and Himmler on the employment of concentration camp inmates at the air armament industry. This is exhibit No. 71, Doc. No. 1584 PS and from Document Book 4 of the Prosecution concerning the Jaegerstab.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1212, "page_number": "", "date": "12 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-12", "text": "Exhibit No. 71, it's the fourth exhibit reading from the top in that book. I would ask the Court to look at the table which is attached at the top--which is attached to the document. Witness, it is said here as aerial industry the anti-aircraft staff Auschwitz. Was that part of the air armament?\nANo.\nQThe east Machine Factory -- the GMBH -- was that part of the air industry?\n959-A", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1213, "page_number": "960", "date": "12 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-12", "text": "A.No, the production of anti-aircraft guns was part of the Waffen -the armament office.\nQ.Siemens & Schuckert, Auschwitz, at first completion of plant, later switch and control instruments for night fighters.\nA.I do not know that factory. I couldn't say exactly; that factory is net known to me.\nQ.The Erla Machine Factory, the MBH?\nA.Yes, that was part of it.\nQ.Was the Junkers Flug and Motorwerk at Schoenobeck?\nA.Yes, they were.\nQ.The Bolde-Arnstadt?\nA.That was weapons office.\nQ.Light metal work Braudenbach?\nA.At Werdinger Rode?\nQ.Yes.\nA.Yes.\nA.Then Dachau? It says here high frequency.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1214, "page_number": "961", "date": "12 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-12", "text": "A.High frequency development?\nQ.Had that anything to do with aerial armament? I refer to highfrequency development work.\nA.I only knew no institute in Ober*fafien hofen. This one I do not know.\nQ.Page 63 of the document bock. The BMW Munich Allach? and the Durnier plant? Were they part?\nA.Yes, they were.\nQ.Engineer Dr. Kimmel of Munich. How about that factory?\nA.I do not know if the Kimmel factory was a part of it.\nQ.The Air Force Research Institute, in Munich is shown here. Is that a part of the aerial industry in Munich?\nA.I do not know that one.\nQ.How about the Mosserschmitt works?\nA.They were a part.\nQ.The Air Force Planning Office at Sudelfeld?\nA.I did not know it.\nQ.Breezifix, Dachau?\nA.Breezifix, in my opinion, worked for several branches of the Wehrmacht.\nQ.What about the Sachse Company at Kempten?\nA.They were sub-suppliers. They work not commissioned by GL. They were sub-suppliers.\nQ.Deutsche Erd-und Stein Werke?\nA.Yes, I know about this.\nQ.Spare parts were produced?\nA.Spare parts were produced for the Regensburg factory.\nQ.Starting at what date?\nA.That I do not know. I only heard about this during a journey. I believe it was in March 1944. The Regensburg works had been attacked and became decentralized after that. Apparently part of its work was trans ferred there.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1215, "page_number": "", "date": "12 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-12", "text": "Q.GL had no influence on this?", "speakers": [ "Q." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1216, "page_number": "", "date": "12 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-12", "text": "ANo. The firms did that independently.\nQHow about the Ceramic Works, Bohemia in Neurolau? Plane parts production.\nAHe is a sub-supplier.\nQLuftfahrtgeraetewerk, Zwodau? (Aeroplane Equipment Works).\nAThat is unknown to me.\nQThen, once again, Deutsche Erd Steinwerke G.m.b.H. at Herzogenbusch, airplane assembling plant, for repair of aeroplane motors.\nAOh, yes.\nQThat is a stripping plant?\nAYes.\nQHad that anything to do with GL?\nAThese factories, at that time, were -- it is hard for me to answer the question at this time. I would have to refresh my memory first. I really do not know what the state of affairs was at that time. This was a sub-supplier without knowledge of the GL.\nQThen Deutsches Erd & Steinberg Werk at Mauthausen, airplane parts for Messerschmitt.\nACould only be a sub-supplier.\nQFlugmotoren G.m.b.H., Wiener-Neudorf? Initially construction measures, later airplane parts.\nAThat again most likely was a sub-supplier.\nQHeinkelwerke ?\nAYes.\nQThey were ?\nAYes.\nQThis time the plant in Natzweiler?\nAThis is a stripping plant.\nQJastramm? Bergedorf, Hamburg and Neuedamme, airplane parts.\nAThat was a factory for equipment.\nQDid that belong to the GL or was it a supplying works?\nAIt was a supplying works.\nQ 962 Q Dassag G.m.b.H. in Hamburg which manufactures magnetos?", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1217, "page_number": "", "date": "12 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-12", "text": "AI do not know about that. r\nQHow about the Air Ministry testing ground at Ragensbruck? Construction measures.\nAIt is not known to me.\nQGeraete Werk Bommen G.m.b.H.?\nANot known to me.\nThey produce aerial terpedoes?\nAOh, yes.\nQThen the Heinkelwerke. Then Mechanische Werkstatte G.m.b.H., Neubrandenburg?\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:Dr. Bergold, might you suggest to the Tribunal just what 962a relevancy this has to the charges in the indictment against the defendant?", "speakers": [ "JUDGE MUSMANNO", "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1218, "page_number": "963", "date": "12 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-12", "text": "DR. BERGOLD:He is charged with having employed prisoners and concentration camp inmates. For that reason the prosecution has submitted this document.\nJUDGE MUSSMANO:Can you not with some few direct specific questions draw from this witness whatever he knows on those charges?\nDR. BERGOLD:I only wanted to acquaint him with this sort of list before I go into detailed questions; however, I have reached the conclusion. I can easily stop here.\nQWitness, in all these factories concentration camp inmates were employed. Was this done by order of the GL? Did the GL know at all that that happened?\nAThe employment of these concentration camp inmates has not been done by order of the GL. I said before that the GL had no influence on which workers were put at his disposal.\nQDid he hear about the details of this?\nAHe did not hear about the details but I, myself, found this out while on an official journey. Whether this was known to the different officials I do not know. It was not known in our office to this extent.\nQYou heard about this during an official trip in the spring of 1944. Did you report to Milch about this or did you omit to do this?\nAImmediately after this, the Jaegerstab was founded, everything was changed.\nQYou did not report about this at all, did you?\nANo.\nQDo you know the agreement with the French about the construction of aircraft?\nAI know there was an agreement with France at that time. In that agreement the quota of five to one was decided upon.\nQIs it correct that Milch, as early as 1942, fought against Sauckel's withdrawing workers from French air armament factories?\nAYes, he did. This taking away of workers from factories was a disadvantage to us, because when Sauckel took his first measures of returning the workers from France we did not only lose these workers. All the other ran away for fear that a second recruitment would occur and the factories in France almost stood at a standstill.", "speakers": [ "A", "JUDGE MUSSMANO", "DR. BERGOLD", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1219, "page_number": "964", "date": "12 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-12", "text": "These factories were the basis for the availability of our airfleet in France; therefore, considerable arguments followed. This measure mas ridiculous because these workers who were experts of aircraft construction could not be employed in Germany in the same branch of their work, but had to be employed in completely alien fields, such as the construction of tanks.\nQ.Were you ever present at meetings of the Central Planning Board?\nA.No. I was never present.\nQ.Witness, on 8 April 1943 Milch wrote to the Plenipotentiary for the Four Year Plan the following letter.\nDR. BERGOLD:Your Honors, this is Exhibit Number 49 and Document NumberNOKW 287. It is in Volume 2-C of the Prosecution's document book. In the German document book it is 136. It is a letter dated 8 April 1943. In the index of document book 2, it is the 11th exhibit, reading from the top. I am sorry, I have made a mistake. On the second page of the index\nTHE PRESIDENT:It is Exhibit 49. We have it.\nDR. BERGOLD:Very well.\nQ.Witness, this is a letter to the Plenipotentiary of the Four Year plan, Commissioner for the Allocation of Labor.\n\"The continuously increasing drafting of German members of the staff, from the production as well as from the security teams (plant protection and plant fireguards), make it necessary to assign more and more foreign labor to the factories of the armament industry. This assignment of foreign labor offers special tasks to the plants of the armament industry with regard to security measures which can no longer be guaranteed with the forces at present at the disposal of the industry.\"", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1220, "page_number": "965", "date": "12 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-12", "text": "\"Therefore, you are urgently requested to direct the labor offices to place at the disposal of the armament plants upon their request as quickly as possible the competent forces for protection and fire guards, because otherwise normal security in the plants can no longer be guaranteed.\nWitness, by this request, did that mean that those people should guard the foreigners or were they meant for protection against sabotage, theft, espionage or fire?\nAI do not know the letter.\nQWhat do you mean by plant protection?\nAProtection of the works was an organization --\nMR. DENNEY:Your Honor please, he has now read him the letter which the witness did not write, and the witness said he does not know of the letter, and he is now asking him to interpret the letter, which I submit is going far afield, and I think he has certainly been given a lot of latitude up to now.\nDR. BERGOLD:I don't think I have asked him about the letter. I am merely asking him about a technical term, that is, \"What is plant protection,\" that the witness knows from his own specialized knowledge.\nTHE PRESIDENT:You could have asked him that without reading him the letter.\nDR. BERGOLD:I thought he know about the letter, and he could make a specific statement. Had I known this, I would have asked him direct.\nTHE PRESIDENT:All right, ask him now what the term \"plant protection\" means.\nBY DR. BERGOLD: What is plant protection?\nAPlant protection is to protect the plant. In the first place the Security Service to avoid theft and to provide the protection at night, guard the entrances, etc.", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "MR. DENNEY", "Q", "A" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1221, "page_number": "", "date": "12 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-12", "text": "QBut watching prisoners of war was not their task?\nANo, it was not.\nQDo you know the term \"Slacker\"? (Bummolanten)\nAYes, they were German or foreign workers; I recall that at one of the meetings, the questions of bummolanten, slackers, was very thoroughly discussed. There were some difficulties at the time because of the current fluctuations among the workers.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Now the question was, what does the word \"slacker\" mean, and he starts out on a long story about somebody holding a meeting.\n965a", "speakers": [ "A", "THE PRESIDENT", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1222, "page_number": "966", "date": "12 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-12", "text": "DR. BERGOLD:He wanted to explain that was where he heard the term for the first time.\nTHE PRESIDENT:You did not ask him that.\nDR. BERGQLD:Quite right. That is a German characteristic, never to answer a question direct. It unfortunately is a German mistake, and I can not change it.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Then we concede it is a bad habit.\nDR. BERGOLD:It is probably a different kind of an attitude which you take towards the question in Germany, and which you think of differently in America. He merely do it differently in Germany. It is a national difference. I don't wish to decide whether it is better of verse.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Neither do I, but I think we will just fellow the American order, whether it is for the better or worse, of requiring an answer to the question directly.\nBY DR. BERGOLD: Witness, would you please be mere specific?\nAYes, between the terms of \"slacker\" and \"loafer\", the leafer means people who had been under duty to work for a long time, and wanted to return to their families, of course, and, therefore, used opportunity to run away without permission, and certainly guarded against that on the other hand to provide the work near his family. The term \"slacker\" were those who did not like to work, who tried to change their place of work, to get an increase of ration tickets and food supplies, and thereby, to get easier terms of living.\nQThank you. Were those German workers, or foreign ones?\nAThese were Germans. Both categories.\nQDid they take any measures against such people, or did they hand them over to Himmler, to place them into a concentration camp?\nAI could not say anything about this. It is not within my memory any more.", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "DR. BERGQLD", "Q", "A" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1223, "page_number": "", "date": "12 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-12", "text": "Q.In your opinion was Milch in a position to hang or shoot foreign workers who did not appear for work, or have cruelties inflicted upon them?\nA.No.\nQ.Or the transfer to a concentration camp?\nA.No.\nQ.In the German Aircraft Industry, in the last year of the war, were there many cases of sabotage or espionage, or any sabotage eases at all?\n966 A", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1224, "page_number": "967", "date": "12 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-12", "text": "A.In the industry itself, espionage occurred only in a very small measure. I myself only remember very few important cases of sabotage which in my opinion occurred early in 1944. For the rest not one case of sabotage was known to me which might have endangered the production program.\nQ.Witness, is it right that when factories were bombed, the foreign workers voluntarily aided to combat the fires?\nA.Yes, I recall reports submitted by the firms which stated that the foreigners had volunteered their help in saving the equipment --- the firms stressed this help.\nQ.Do you know that at the time the Jaegerstab was founded, Milch made a statement that because of his nervous complaint he wanted to retire as soon as possible from his office?\nA.This statement is not known to me because I was travelling when the Jaegerstab was founded.\nQ.Witness, in the exhibit we find the expression of planning --central planning, planning office of the GL, planning office of the Armament Ministry; now were they identical with each other?\nA.No, these offices had nothing to do with each other.\nQ.Were they not subordinate to the same command?\nA.No, they were offices of a completely different --of completely different designations, and they were not part of the Air Ministry.\nQ.Can you tell me who ordered that certain factories should be transferred underground; did Milch order this, or somebody else?\nA.No, the GL so far as I recall it was in no position to issue such an order. I am not quite clear whether this order was issued by Goering, or by Hitler.\nQ.Do you know Mich's attitude towards this?\nA.I believe that it was discussed to the effect that a great number of workers is needed, which should be used for protection purposes.\nQ.Do you know if the GL recruited foreign workers in occupied territories?\nA.The GL himself had no permission to recruit foreign workers.\nQ.Were you a member of the Jaegerstab?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1225, "page_number": "968", "date": "12 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-12", "text": "A.I was ordered by Field Marshall Milch to take part in conferences of the Jaegerstab in order to report to him about them.\nQ.Did the Jaegerstab have authority to recruit foreign workers in occupied territories?\nA.The question in this form I can not answer. The situation was such that the Jaegerstab consisted of members of various offices, and these representatives had to execute in their offices the decisions of the Jaegerstab, or, if the execution was not possible, had to give a sound reason why.\nQ.Did the Jaegerstab unanimously decide upon the recruiting of foreign workers?\nA.Not that I know of.\nQ.Is it right to say that before the Jaegerstab was founded, the Air Armament was at a disadvantage in the whole framework?\nA.Yes.\nQ.Thank you very much. There is a teletype letter of Goering's here in which he applied to Himmler for concentration camp workers. He wrote it on 14 February 1944; do you know of that letter?\nA.No, I don't know of the letter.\nQ.The Contral Planning Board once gave to the Jaegerstab an extra allocation of steel plate arms. Was that for airplane production, or for construction for O.T.\nA.I don't know of that particular allocation but the O. T. does not use steel plates for construction. It can only have been used for aircraft purposes.\nQ.Do you know when the GL began to transfer certain armament works to the overground?\nA.This overground transfer started very early, before the GL was in office even. It was taken into consideration right away when industry-planning began.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1226, "page_number": "969", "date": "12 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-12", "text": "Q.I come back once more to the Jaegerstab. Did the Jaegerstab have to supervise the building for the SS ******* and the SD, or did the Jaegerstab say who should move into the building?\nA.I don't think the Jaegerstab had the supervision of the building. It could, however, decide who should move in.\nQ.Do you know whether Herr Stobbee-Detleffsen was a member of the Jaegerstab?\nA.I think he was.\nQ.What was his task?\nA.I could not say at the moment. I should think this over.\nQ.Building companies of the Luftwaffe are sometimes mentioned. Are these foreign workers or German soldier companies?\nA.The building companies were always German soldiers.\nQ.Can you recall whether Milch asked Hitler for miners from Bertesgaden for building purposes?\nA.I don't know.\nQ.Do you know whether when Hitler had things built in Berchtesgaden foreign workers or Germans only were employed there?\nA.I know nothing about this.\nQ.Sauckel once gave an estimate. He said that of 5,000,000 workers only 200,000 had come to Germany voluntarily. Do you think that that estimate is correct, or how high would you estimate the figure should be concerning voluntary workers?\nA.An estimate is very difficult because these workers were not sent to Germany only for the Luftwaffe but for all sorts of armament. In any case, the figure in my opinion was not very high.\nQ.What do you mean not very high? Were they 200,000 or were they more in your opinion?\nA.I do not wish to pass any judgment here because I do not know.\nQ.Can you describe relations between Goering and Milch?\nA.The relations were not very good. There were frequent conflicts. I said before now on the trip to Berchtesgaden there was an argument.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1227, "page_number": "970", "date": "12 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-12", "text": "Q.What attitude did Milch take toward his small employees?\nA.Milch's attitude was very good. Milch was always nice to his small employees end if they were in difficulties he helped. them.\nDR. BERGOLD:For the time being I have no further questions of this witness.\nTHE. PRESIDENT:The prosecution may cross examine.\nCROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. DENNEY:\nQ.Witness, Dr. Bergold asked you about a film that was shown in the Air Ministry in Berlin which you saw. Do you recall that?\nA.I did not understand the question.\nQ.Do you remember Dr. Bergold asking you about a movie which you saw in the Air Ministry in Berlin?\nA.Yes, I do.\nQ.How long did the movie last?\nA.I should say ten minutes or a quarter of an hour.\nQ.Ten minutes or a quarter of an hour. Could it have been longer?\nA.That is how I estimate it at the moment. After such a long time I cannot commit myself.\nQ.Did they have a lecture after the movie was over?\nA.No.\nQ.Was it a talking moving picture? Did it have a sound track with it?\nA.As far as I recall, it was not a talking picture.\nQ.In other words, it was a silent film?\nA.Yes. At any rate, I believe so.\nQ.So, you saw a movie that lasted fifteen minutes, and there was no lecture afterwards, and it was silent. Was there any lecture before the movie?\nA.No.\nQ.Did you talk to anybody about the movie before you went to see it?", "speakers": [ "THE. PRESIDENT", "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1228, "page_number": "971", "date": "12 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-12", "text": "A.At the end we were told briefly, as I said before, that the experimental person was a prisoner who, because of heavy crimes, volunteered in order to save his life. That was all.\nQ.And you went in and stayed ten or fifteen minutes end saw a movie and then came out, is that right?\nA.Yes.\nQ.Do you remember telling the Court that after 35 or 40 minutes the person who was the experimental subject was normal?\nA.Yes. That was the greatest duration of the experiment. The film, of course, was interrupted at times in order to press the pictures together.\nQ.Or in order to take some out.\nA.Take out? No. I saw distinctly that the person experimented on was alive when reaching the ground.\nQ.How was the man dressed in the picture?\nA.I cannot describe the uniform. I don't know what nation he belonged to. It was a suit which had no insignia on it and which did not point to any particular nation.\nQ.Was it a military uniform?\nA.It was some sort of uniform, a kind of working uniform.\nQ.Do you recall who was at the meeting other than yourself?\nA.What meeting are you referring to?\nQ.Where you saw the movie.\nA.Do you mean the meeting while the film was being shown? There was no such meeting.\nQ.Did you go in there alone to see it?\nA.No, I said before that at regular intervals films of a secret content or of a technical nature were shown and a certain circle was asked to take part, and that was the sort of film on that occasion.\nQ.Well, who were the certain circle of persons who were asked to take part?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1229, "page_number": "972", "date": "12 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-12", "text": "A.That circle of persons was usually the same.\nQ.Who were the circle of persons? If they were the same ones, you ought to remember them.\nA.Yes.\nQ.You told Dr. Bergold that you couldn't. You can tell us who they were.\nA.I can recall that Colonel Pendele was one of them and Colonel Angermund. They were both adjutants. I came in when the film was just starting. It was dark and I cannot recall the other persons right now.\nQ.Well, if they were the same people who went to all of these films, you must have at sometime been in there when it was not dark, so who were they? You can remember Pendele and Angermund. Who else?\nA.The state of affairs was such that a certain circle of persons was admitted to these films. It is obvious that they did not all turn up. The number of people present changed. People who had nothing else to do usually attended. What I meant before by saying that the participants were always the same was that the circle of persons who were allowed to take part - that was a definite rule.\nQ.Were any SS people there?\nA.No.\nQ.All Luftwaffe people?\nA.They were all films that were shown within a small circle of the Luftwaffe.\nQ.Answer the question, witness. I said were they all Luftwaffe people who were there. You talk to me about films. Don't do that. Were they all Luftwaffe people?\nA.I saw only Luftwaffe people.\nQ.Did you ever see the defendant at any of these films?\nA.I think I saw him once during a technical film but not at the film being referred to. He certainly was not present then.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1230, "page_number": "973", "date": "12 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-12", "text": "QNow that wasn't very technical, was it?\nANo\nQYou said, I believe, at the beginning, that you were a general engineer; at least that's what came through the -\nAYes.\nQAre you a graduate engineer?\nAYes.\nQAnd are you a professional soldier?\nAI am a professional soldier; yes.\nQHow long have you been in the army?\nAI was with tho Luftwaffe from -- Should I give my military career?\nQWell, no. No; I don't want you to go into that. Just toll me when you went in the army. What year?\nAIn the last war I was an infantry officer -\nQWill you just answer the question? What year did you enter the Army? It must be 19 hundred and something.\nAI was first a technical employee of the army and then later with the technical office of the Air Ministry, and when the engineer corps of the Luftwaffe was founded, in 1936, I was taken into the engineer corps.\nQThat's all I wanted to know. In 1936 you entered the army; is that right as a soldier?\nAYes.\nQHow did you find out that these people in the movie were people who were very bad criminals?\nA That was explained to us, briefly, at tho end of the film, as I said before.\nQNow, you visited some of these plants in connection with the Generalluftzeugmeisterwerke, and you said that everybody was happy there; were there foreign workers in some of the plants you were in?\nAYes.\nQThey were all happy?\nAYes; they were happy.\nQWhere did they live?\nAThey lived in huts. They were accomodated in huts; some of them in firm stone buildings.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1231, "page_number": "974", "date": "12 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-12", "text": "QDid they have any guards around them?\nAI never saw any guards.\nQAnd when did you first find out that concentration camp laborers were being used in aircraft factories? Was that in March 1944?\nAI was then on an official trip to increase fighter production.\nQNow, just answer the question. I asked you when the date was? Was it in March 1944 that you -\nAYes; that was in March 1944.\nQIn March 1944 you first found out that concentration camp inmates were being employed in the air armament factories?\nAYes.\nQAnd you didn't report this to the defendant?\nANo, because then, when I returned in May -\nQYou've already told us that the reason you didn't was because there was a change. The only thing I'm asking you is to confirm what you said. You did not report it to the defendant?\nANo.\nQAnd, so far as you know, the defendant never know anything about concentration camp inmates being employed in Luftwaffe factories, or air armament factories?\nAI cannot say that, of course.\nQWell, do you know that he did know that they employed concentration camp inmates?\nANo; that I didn't know .\nQHe never told you: \"Haertel, we have down here a certain number of concentration came inmates\", did he?\nA No.\n*---*", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1232, "page_number": "975", "date": "12 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-12", "text": "QAnd you never heard him talk to any body also about concentration camp inmates?\nANo.\nQAnd you never heard the defendant say anything about turning any kind of workers over to Himmler?\nANo. I never heard anything about that.\nQYou never heard of the SD handling workers, any kind of workers?\nAI never heard anything about the SD.\nQDid you know what it was?\nAOh, yes.\nQThey were some of Himmler's characters; were they not.\nAOh, yes that is well known.\nQAnd I believe you said that in the Generalluftzeugmeister meetings they never discussed labor?\nAOh, yes; workers were discussed, of course.\nQWell, what did they say about them, when they talked about then?", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1233, "page_number": "976", "date": "12 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-12", "text": "Did they talk about foreign workers?\nA.In the first place, the figures were important to us, not what type of workers we were getting; whether they were foreign or were German.\nQ.Well, then you never discussed foreign workers there. You just discussed figures?\nA.Yes, we discussed figures quite independent of the type of the worker.\nQ.You never discussed foreign workers, you discussed figures.\nA.Well naturally, we were told that we have so and so many foreign workers but requests were always figures, and never type of workers.\nQ.So then you know that you did have some foreign workers?\nA.We did not request foreign workers. We did not apply for foreign workers. We only drew up figures of our needs and sent it on to Sauckel. What we were given was outside of our influence.\nQ.I asked you whether or not you know that you had foreign workers, and I'm still waiting for an answer.\nA.Foreign workers were used in the air armament; yes.\nQ.So far as you know they were all volunteers.\nA.I did not say so. Where the workers came from, whether they were volunteers or not, was not know to us.\nQ.Well did it ever occur to you that perhaps you might have some forced laborers there?\nA.It was not known to me. I never paid any attention to it.\nQ.You stated that the defendant thought that the war was lost. When did he thinks the war was lost?\nA.He did not say that; that the war was lost. I said before that he attempted to make such hint, and that very undirectly, he dropped small hints which showed his opinion.\nQ.Well, you picked the small hints up and pieced them together, and figured out that the defendant thought the war was last. Now when did you came to that conclusion?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1234, "page_number": "977", "date": "12 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-12", "text": "A.I cannot of course, give that precisely here, but after Stalingrad the first misgivings occurred.\nQ.When was Stalingrad?\nA.Well Winter 1942 and 1943.\nQ.About the Russians who were used in the anti-aircraft; on gun batteries; how many of them were used to you knowledge?\nA.I do not know about this because it was not our field of duties.\nQ.Well; did you ever see any of them in a gun battery?\nA.I was never allowed to enter a anti-aircraft position. We had no permission to do that.\nQ.You said that the defendant ordered you to attend the Jaegerstab meetings and to report to him?\nA.Yes.\nQ.How many of the Jagerstab meetings did you attend?\nA.Roughly, I should say I attended 90 percent of the meetings, with the exception of these held in March and the beginning of May 1944--during that time, I was on a journey.\nQ.Did you ever see the defendant there?\nA.Very rarely at the most four or five times.\nQ.So you went to 90 percent of the meetings and-\nA.Yes Q. --you saw him there four or five times?\nA.Yes.\nMR. DENNEY:I have no more questions, Your Honors.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1235, "page_number": "978", "date": "12 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-12", "text": "RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. BERGOLD:\nQYou said just now that from March to May you didn't take part in the meetings.\nAYes, from the beginning of March up to the beginning of May; only after that.\nQOnly after that?\nAYes.\nQOne more question: did you report about the film to Milch?\nANo.\nDR. BERGOLD:No further questions.\nBY JUDGE PHILLIPS:\nQReferring to the film that you saw; was the subject either Dr. Rancher or Dr. Romberg?\nAI don't know either of these people.\nQYou say the defendant Milch threatened to shoot and kill you?\nAYes, he said so quite frequently; he threatened that quite often in discussions.\nQDo you know about him saying that he was going to have to kill two Russian officers who escaped?\nARussian officers? I know nothing of this incident.\nQYou never heard of that?\nANo.\nQDid you know that Polish and Russian foreigners worked in the air armament plants?\nARussian workers did work in our armament factories Yes.\nQDo you know of any of then being killed?\nAI don't know of one single case.\nJUDGE PHILLIPS: That is all.\nBY THE PRESIDENT:\nQDo you speak Russian, Polish or Rumanian?", "speakers": [ "A", "DR. BERGOLD", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1236, "page_number": "979", "date": "12 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-12", "text": "AI speak a little Russian.\nQDo you understand these languages?\nAYes, a little.\nQBut none of the workers ever stopped you and complained that they were not being fed or cared for?\nANo.\nQWhat do you think would have happened had one done so?\nAThe members of the firm would have taken proper measures on the basis of the complaints.\nQProper measures.\nAAny bad management would have been immediately stopped.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Dr. Bergold, have you any other witnesses now except the witness Eschenauer?\nDR. BERGOLD:Eschenauer tomorrow, Your Honor.\nTHE PRESIDENT:That will be the last one until the defendants in Trial No. 1 are produced?\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes. Tomorrow I shall read from my document book about two, which will take a little time.\nTHE PRESIDENT:And you will call Eschenauer as a witness?\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Will you please have the witness ready the first thing in the morning?\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes, I will.\nTHE PRESIDENT:We will recess until that time.\nTHE MARSHAL:Tribunal No. II will recess until 0930 13 February 1947.\n(The Tribunal adjourned until 13 February 1947, at 0930 hours.)", "speakers": [ "A", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "Q", "THE MARSHAL" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1237, "page_number": "980", "date": "13 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-13", "text": "Official transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America against Erhard Milch, defendant, sitting at Nuernberg, Germany, on 13 February 1947, 0930, Justice Toms presiding.\nTHE MARSHAL:Persons in the courtroom will please find their seats. The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal 2. Military Tribunal 2 is now in session. God save the United States of America and this honorable Tribunal. There will be order in the court.\nDR. BERGOLD:May it please the Court, I have, first of all, a technical question. You told me that tomorrow and Monday the defendants from case number one may be called. May I call them in a sequence as I think fit or has Court Number One made a ruling as to the sequence?\nTHE PRESIDENT:Court Number One will not be in session and you are at liberty to call the defendants in whatever order you wish.\nDR. BERGOLD:Thank you.\nTHE PRESIDENT:I remind you, Dr. Bergold, that the Defense Information Center must be informed of this.\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes, only I didn't know whether the order was left to me or whether there was a ruling.\nTHE PRESIDENT:You may choose your own order. Be sure to notify the Defense Information Center.\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes. Good. I now ask permission to call the witness Eschenauer.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The Marshal will summon the witness Eschenauer.\nARTURESCHENAUER, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:Witness, you will raise your right hand and then repeat after me:\nI swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.\n(The witness repeated the oath.)\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:You may be seated.", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "ARTUR", "THE MARSHAL", "JUDGE MUSMANNO" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1238, "page_number": "981", "date": "13 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-13", "text": "DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. BERGOLD:\nQ.Witness, would you please reply to my questions slowly so that the translators can follow you? Also, would, you please pause after each question put to you so that the translators can finish translating my question?\nMR. DENNEY:If Your Honor please, the witness has just taken papers from his pocket and put them on the desk there. I suggest that he testify from him memory and not from something that he has written up or that someone may have written up for him.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The Court has no knowledge of what the papers contain. If the witness uses them --\nMR. DENNEY:The witness has now put them away.\nDR. BERGOLD:Your Honors, in Germany you are usually allowed to note down brief words.\nTHE PRESIDENT:There is nothing of object to nor rule upon yet.\nBY DR. BERGOLD:\nQ.Witness, will you give us your Christian name end second name?\nA.Artur Eschenauer.\nQ.When were you born?\nA.January 23, 1906.\nQ.Please remember to pause. Don't start at once. What was your last position in the German Wehrmacht?\nA.I was a colonel, and in the last five weeks I led the liaison staff SU.\nQ.Please explain the initials \"SU\". We are not familiar with these military initials.\nA.After the occupation of Germany a liaison staff of the Quartermaster General in the Northern Area was formed.\nQ.Since when were you active with the Quartermaster General?\nA.From 1 April 1941 up to the capitulation I was subordinate to the Quartermaster General.\nQ.Do you know the defendant Milch?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1239, "page_number": "982", "date": "12 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-12", "text": "A.Yes, I do.\nQ.Can you see him in the Court? Will you please point him out to (The witness complied.)\nDR. BERGOLD:Please out on the record that the witness recognized the defendant.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The record will so show.\nBY DR. BERGOLD:\nQ.Witness, in your position with the Quartermaster General were you a subordinate of Milch?\nA.No, I was never his immediate subordinate.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1240, "page_number": "983", "date": "13 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-13", "text": "Q.Did the Quartermaster General - was he subordinate of Milch?\nA.No, he was not of Milch either.\nQ.To whom was the Quartermaster General a subordinate?\nA.He was under the chief of the General Staff of the Luftwaffe and was his subordinate.\nQ.And to whom was the Chief of the General Staff of the Luftwaffe subordinate?\nA.He was subordinate immediately to Goering.\nQ.You could say, therefore, you had no subordinate relations, as it were, to Milch?\nA.Never.\nQ.Witness, can you tell us from when and where Milch was concerned with the armament in the war?\nA.Milch took over after the death of Udet. He took over concerns of the GL. That was in November 1941.\nQ.In your own office with the Quartermaster General did you have official relations with him?\nA.Yes, that was because of the whole manner of my activities which led to intimate official cooperation between the General and myself.\nQ.Will you please describe to us what these official relations were?\nA.My field of tasks comprised questions of armaments and equipment of the Luftwaffe. The office requested war equipment for aircraft and instruments for the ground services - it was the General Staff of the Luftwaffe. The applying office was the GL. This shows the necessity for a mutual official contact.\nQ.Do you know when Milch resigned from these armament tasks?\nA.Yes. The beginning of this occurred when the Jaegerstab was founded. He finally resigned as far as I know in June. The beginning of his resignation goes back further and was known to us outsiders from about April or the beginning of May.\nQ.You said with the foundation of the Jaegerstab Milch's resignation started. Will you please explain that opinion?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1241, "page_number": "", "date": "13 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-13", "text": "A.The Jaegerstab was founded. Field Marshal Milch took part in the first talks and conferences held by the Jaegerstab but then he didn't turn up any more nor was he asked for his opinion on things to be planned.\nQ.Can you tell us reasons which led to the formation of the Jaegerstab?\nA.As I saw it, this was a final effort on the part of Milch to express his opinion on the necessity for the defense of the Reich and then, in effect, by taking over the responsibility for the building of fighter aircraft and transfer the responsibility to the Ministry of Armament in order to exploit the bigger powers of the armament industry. So this is new -\nQ.You say the bigger power of that ministry. Were they at his disposal earlier?\nA.From the conference, the so-called GL conference in which he took part, I could see quite clearly that he made demands repeatedly to be supported in his program and he made these demands in the armament industry but they were never met. The promises given to him were never met and the result was that he believed he should turn away the shame on the lack of defense of the Reich from the Luftwaffe by making the armament industry responsible for this state of affairs.\nQ.Who was the real leader of the Jaegerstab? He planned the Jaegerstab or somebody else?\nA.That was exclusively Saner.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1242, "page_number": "985", "date": "13 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-13", "text": "Q.You said just now he wished to turn away from the Luftwaffe the shame of the lack of Reich defense. Did he make any efforts for the defense of the Reich before? Was he not more anxious to produce bombers and offensive weapons?\nA.I could say this about this, that after he took over the office of GL, Milch pressed very strongly the question of the defense of the Reich in order to get his production factories and the labor for them to protect these people. This aim was to produce more and more strongly the more the enemy intensified his attacks on the Reich territory.\nQ.Did he get the approval of his superiors for his plan to produce more fighters?\nA.There were very strong conflicts for this program. He himself asked GL - this was probably in Autumn 1943, either in October or November. He drew up a program in which he pressed ruthlessly for the production of defensive aircraft up to a figure almost incredible at that time; namely, 1,000 aircraft per month, with certain limitations, however, and at the expense of the bomber arm. That program I was given simultaneously with the order of the Chief of the General Staff to draw up an estimate about this program for him. In order to make this program debatable, even, I had to take its basic condition that the bomber position should be kept on its present level. I was able to draw up a counter proposal which provided for 800 fighters. This estimation was drawn up by my then chief of office and myself and we passed it on to the chief of the general staff, who, despite misgivings on his part as far as the success was concerned, all the same was quite ready to press it through. After a few days I was told that this program had not been accepted. He dictated me the final figures, which provided for 400 fighter aircraft only. He himself, with his own conviction for the increase of the defense of the Reich, had not had any luck with Hitler or Goering or both of them. In the final drawing up of this program, of which Field Marshal Milch disapproved strongly, these figures of fighter aircraft were raised a little above the figure of 400.\nQ.Can you tell us what reasons were given by Goering and Hitler for turning down this program?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1243, "page_number": "986", "date": "13 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-13", "text": "Why did they want more bombers?\nA.The reason was, in the mentality of these people who believed to press through the war in the east and finish it with all offensive weapons at their disposal in order then to have their back wall free to turn on the other enemies.\nQ.Witness, do you know that Goering reproached Milch for keeping production too law although he, Goering, had put the necessary labor at his disposal?\nA.These reproaches were raised frequently by Goering in talks in some of which I took part, mostly, however, statements, and the discussion had to be broken off. Goering was very indignant and could not be persuaded, and he asked for the matter to be cleared up otherwise.\nQOn what did Goering base his figures on the labor which he put at his disposal?\nA.I couldn't say that in detail. In any case Goering probably received his figures from the Party Chancellery or other Party offices. I, myself, in my own field of tasks, had an eternal struggle for the correctness of my figures and the correctness of figures applied from other offices.\nQ.Do you know that Sauckel always explained to the offices concerned that he had supplied large numbers of workers?\nA.I cannot speak about this as I never saw Sauckel or met him.\nQ.How did you judge the question of labor in the Luftwaffe industry?\nA.In the general conferences the question of workers was frequently discussed and it could been seen that to extend these programs or carry them out not enough labor was at our disposal. The main struggle was made to preserve management's skilled workers, for whom Milch sought, and on the other hand the struggle between OKW to obtain as many fighting people from the industry. Milch himself knew how to form his own Luftwaffe personnel, or from his own pilots to obtain about 40,000, or from soldiers on leave another 30,000 soldiers. In other words 70,000 men, as they figured it out. He withheld all those people from active service.\nQ.All these were German workers?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1244, "page_number": "987", "date": "13 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-13", "text": "A.Yes, they were German workers who sometimes worked on airfields and had been called up and who, by his intervention or other measures which I do not know in detail, went into the industry and were kept in the industry up to his resignation.\nQ.Do you know that Milch had anything to do with forced labor on the part of foreigners?\nA.I know nothing about this. In any case in the talks in which I was present this was never discussed.\nQ.But you knew that the Luftwaffe industry kept foreign workers?\nA.That was known to me.\nQ.Can you tell us what attitude Milch took toward foreign workers?\nA.I can recall that in several cases Milch helped to achieve increased production by giving additional food and facilities for enjoyment, including films, film shows, and so forth, so that these people would work more actively and production would increase, as he himself wished, after being told by industrialists, \"You must give us the means\", and he was to see to it that they were given the means.\nQ.The defendant, at a meeting of the Central Planning Board, said that foreign workers should be whipped so that they would work. Is that his real attitude, or how would you say that such a statement came about?\nA.I didn't hear that statement myself. I was not present at that meeting where apparently he said so. But I can well imagine that, as an impulsive character, he talked himself into a certain excitement, and whenever he did that he used expressions which went far beyond the conventional courtesy, including those present. In most cases he apologized almost immediately and said he didn't mean it, they shouldn't take too serious a view of it.\nQ.You don't think that this remark about whipping - do you think that is the same sort of thing when he said, \"I will hang people.\"?\nA.This hanging and shooting business seemed to come easy to him but nobody took it seriously, all the more, as he had hardly the power to hang people.\nQ.So you only saw Milch make efforts to obtain as favorable conditions as possible for foreign workers?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1245, "page_number": "988", "date": "13 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-13", "text": "AYes.\nQ.Thank you. Do you know that he was even opposed to the recruiting of large numbers of foreign workers into factories?\nANo, he was opposed to that because he knew very well that thereby production would not increase. He has been the head of the Lufthansa for far too long a time not to see things very clearly.\nQWitness, your reply was a little confusing. I asked you whether you know that he was opposed to the leading into factories, and you said no. That is not the correct reply to my question.\nAI wanted to say he did not advocate this because he did not expect increased production.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q.", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1246, "page_number": "989", "date": "13 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-13", "text": "QIs it correct that at the end of 1941 when Milch was to go with the office of GL, the air armament was weak?\nAUnfortunately, yes.\nQ.Was his citing for increased interest in the production was his citation for increased production the result of that, or did he merely wish to enslave foreign workers?\nAAreply to that question goes beyond my competency. I can only give my impression that I am of the opinion that he wished to enslave foreign workers, but he looked on the GL office and concentrated on it more strongly in order to increase the production.\nQDid the German Armed Forces know at that time that the American Air Armament figures were very much higher in relation to the German figures?\nAThe Luftwaffe knew that.\nMR. DENNEY:Your Honor, I don't mind this witness being lead, but when he is asked what the knowledge is of what the German Armed Forces know, that is objectionable. This man is a colonel, and he can be asked what he knows, but my goodness, let's not get out of this witness the knowledge of the Wehrmacht.\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes, it is a fact that the point is why Milch wished to increase production, and that the American figures were really higher is not the opinion of him but what the Germans believed.\nMR. DENNEY:Now what Germany believed but what did Milch believe.\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes.\nTHE PRESIDENT:But that is not what you asked him.\nDR. BERGOLD:All right.\nBY DR. BERGOLD:\nQPlease confine your reply to Milch. What did Milch think of the American figures, what did Milch think the American figures were?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "MR. DENNEY", "Q", "A" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1247, "page_number": "", "date": "15 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-15", "text": "AI can not say this because I have no knowledge.\nTHE PRESIDENT:He answered the question by saying he can not say what Milch thought.\n989 a BY DR. BERGOLD:", "speakers": [ "A", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1248, "page_number": "990", "date": "13 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-13", "text": "QPlease tell, witness, whether the Luftwaffe Office had finished material at their disposal?\nAYes, they had material, but that went to a different part of the Ministry. How that material came to the factory I could not say.\nQWitness, when you cited an increasing production, were you given this enemy figure for comparison?\nAYes, in some cases I did some myself; these were materials which I received from the Swiss figures published by Henry Kaiser.\nQWas he present at that talk?\nANo, he was not present.\nQYou believe, in other words, that he had no idea how strong the enemy airforce was?\nANo, no, I could not say that. Naturally, he had a certain idea, because he himself had thought of the figures, which he did not get from me.\nQBut you do think he was informed?\nAYes, he certainly was informed.\nQWitness, to increase the Fighter Staff Army, was that meant for offensive warfare, or to defend the homeland?\nAMilch looked on it as a defensive army for the homeland, in order to safeguard arms production.\nQWitness, do you know of the Central Planning Board?\nANo. I heard the term but what it really was I could not say, because we were sorry to see that up to the end of the war there was no coordinating office.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Now just a minute. He said when he answered your question that he did not know of the Central Planning Planning Board, period.\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes.", "speakers": [ "A", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1249, "page_number": "", "date": "13 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-13", "text": "BY DR. BERGOLD:\nQWitness, a document has boon submitted in which the Central Planning 990 a Board is described as a coordinating office for the whole German War Industry.", "speakers": [ "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1250, "page_number": "991", "date": "13 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-13", "text": "Was there such an office, really?\nANo, we were sorry to say that there was no such coordination office which would coordinate the request for service of the Wehrmacht and the coordinating with the potentiality of material available.\nQWitness, in these conversations, it was usual in Germany to take down verbatim the record of it; was it known to you?\nAYes, it is.\nQYou yourself were present at the conversation?\nAYes.\nQDid you ever check up or road through these records?\nAYes, that was one of my obligations, to read through these records, be cause it very often lead me to take certain actions.\nQWhat was your impression of the exactitude of these records?\nAThe records which were taken down by the stenographers were verbatim, and afterwards were worked on in an abridged form , or submitted to other offices, and were not always according to what had been said, particularly one of these last meetings, when those conferences were held with several persons speaking at the same time, or when discussions were very excited. I myself in two cases had to insist that the record should be changed, because my own words had been taken down completely contrary to what I had said before.\nQDo you know also that when Milch used strong language, for instance, that the stenographers were told \"Don't put that down\", or \"Don't put it in this form.\"\nAOh, yes, that happened usually when he had used a few strong expressions, or had exploded in an unpolite manner.\nQYou were present at conferences of the Jaegerstab?", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1251, "page_number": "", "date": "13 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-13", "text": "AYes, I took part in a few meetings of the Jaegerstab.\nQWill you tell us, witness, in your office or position did you ever hear anything about force labor including foreign workers?\n991 a A No.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1252, "page_number": "992", "date": "13 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-13", "text": "Q.Did the GL have anything to do with employing prisoners of war in loading ammunition from the trains, loading on aircrafts, and so forth?\nAI would not know what office dealt with these things.\nQCould you tell me whether Milch approved of the Party policy towards terrorist pilots?\nANo, he did not approve, as this whole program was opposed very strongly by the members of the Luftwaffe.\nQCan you tell me how the Luftwaffe Industry requested their labor?\nANo, I don't know about this.\nQIs it true that Milch very early expressed his opinion both to officers his superior, and also to his subordinates that the war was lost?\nASo far as I am concerned, Milch was the first person of the higher superior officers who in a conference attended by over fifty people, which was at one of the conferences when he used the tern \"Lost war\".\nQWhen was that?\nAThat must have been in the year of 1943, after some big town had been destroyed by an air attack. I don't know which one it was. I should say it must have been in the summer of 1943.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "Q", "A" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1253, "page_number": "993", "date": "13 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-13", "text": "DR. BERGOLD:I have no further questions to this witness CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. DENNY:\nQHow many Jaegerstab meeting were held?\nAI cannot say that precisely,As I was not ordered to represent the Luftwaffe with the Jaegerstab.\nQDid they hold meetings between March 1, 1944 and August 1, 1944?\nAYes.\nQHow many did you attend?\nAI estimate I should have attended about five or six meetings.\nQFive of six.\nAYes, I had been specially invited.\nQDid you ever go to the meetings of the Central Planning Board?\nANo.\nQYou didn't know anything about the Central Planning did you?\nANo.\nQBut you told the tribunal you knew it wasn't a coordinating office.\nAYes.\nQNow about these records that you talked about; what records were those?\nAThey were the records of the meetings held by the GL, which were put together after the meetings and distributed among certain participants of the meeting.\nQAnd on occasions you had to cause the records to be changed because they improperly set out your participation in some respects in the meeting?\nAYes, in the two cases of which I can recall very well, there were certain passages which were completely contrary to what had been said before.\nQAnd you had them fixed up?\nAAt my request, which I was occasioned to repeat twice, it was put right in writing at the next record.\nQAnd so, if once they didn't change it, you asked them again if they didn't do it the first time; is that right?", "speakers": [ "A", "DR. BERGOLD", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1254, "page_number": "994", "date": "13 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-13", "text": "AYes. The person who should have done it seems to have forgotten it.\nQBut you stuck along and finally got it corrected?\nAYes.\nQAnd you also stated on occasions when the defendant exploded in meetings, they'd completely delete what he said.\nAIn those cases these things were either left out, or slightly more polite form was put in.\nQDid you ever see the Reich Marshal or Hitler in those meetings; did you ever see anything of the Reich Marshal or Hitler in those meetings?\nAThe Reich Marshal, as far as I can recall, attended one; Himmler I never saw myself, at any meeting.\nQI asked you if the defendant ever said anything about the Reich Marshal or Hitler being at those meetings.\nANo, he did not do so; as far as I can remember he used the Jaegerstab for that -- to vent his fury.\nQSo the Jaegerstab was the whipping board for Hitler and Goering when ever he made an outburst?\nAThat is the right term.\nQYou knew that foreign labor was employed in the Luftwaffe?\nAYes.\nQDid you ever talk about it at these Generalluftzeugmeister meetings you spoke about?\nAYes, that was discussed.\nQThey did discuss foreign labor there?\nAYes; it was discussed that foreign labor workers wore being employed or were active in the Luftwaffe industries; and that to increase their production and their willingness to work special concessions should be made by Milch.\nQMilch would make the concessions so that the workers would do better?\nAYes, he wished to fight for this to increase the willingness to work of those people by better food and luxury articles.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1255, "page_number": "995", "date": "13 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-13", "text": "QAnd you also stated that the defendant was able to withhold 70,000 people from service in the Wehrmacht, in order to keep the armament production or to have the armament production employed.\nAYes, this picture is not quite correct though. I said roughly forty thousand workers; I said he had roughly forty thousand workers in his pocket by calling them up, and he transferred them into the Luftwaffe industries; and about thirty thousand trained soldiers, he gave them special leave so that they could go back to the Luftwaffe industries.\nQAny way, he had some workers -- approximately seventy thousand -that he was able to manipulate around?\nAYes.\nQNow, did you ever hear Himmler mentioned at any of these Generalluftzeugmeister meetings?\nAI cannot recall that at all.\nQYou never heard anything about the SD; you never heard anybody talk about the SD? Or shooting of workers?\nAI cannot recall any details of this now.\nQHow many of these meetings did you go to?\nAI attended roughly half of all the meetings.\nQAbout half of all the meetings of the Generalluftzeugmeister?\nAYes.\nQAnd they started holding those meetings under the defendant shortly after November 1941 when Udet died?\nAIt began roughly inApril 1942; that was the period where we from our office always sent a representative to those meetings.\nQHow did Udet die?\nAAs far as I know Udet killed himself.\nQWhere?\nAI cannot say that precisely; I assume it was in Berlin.\nQWhen did you first hear about Udet killing himself?\nAAfew days later.\nQWho told you? Who told you about it?", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1256, "page_number": "996", "date": "13 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-13", "text": "AI cannot say in detail; in any case the rumors spread very quickly.\nQUdet was a pretty big man in the organization, was he not?\nAYes.\nMR. DENNY:I have no further questions.\nBY JUDGE PHILLIPS:\nQDid you understand from the defendant Milch that prisoners of war were working in armament industries?\nAI know nothing about this.\nJUDGE PHILLIPS:That is all.\nRE-DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. BERGOLD:\nQI have one final question to him; witness, do you know who was in charge of the sea distress service?\nAThe sea distress service was under the Quartermaster General.\nQThat is to say your office?\nANot my office, but the office of my superior officer.\nQIn other words, it was not under Milch?\nANo.\nDR. BERGOLD:Thank you. I have no more questions to this witness.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The Marshal may remove the witness.\n(The witness was removed by the Marshal)\nDR. BERGOLD:Your Honors, I shall now read from my Document Book 2. I shall read first Document No.R-124, record of the 54th Meeting of the Central Planning Board, page two of the document book. I shall give this document the Exhibit No. B-31.", "speakers": [ "JUDGE PHILLIPS", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "MR. DENNY", "Q", "A" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1257, "page_number": "997", "date": "13 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-13", "text": "\"Shorthand Report of the 54th Meeting of the Central Planning concerning Labor Commitment on Wednesday 1 March 1944, 1000 hours at the Reich Air Ministry Page 1780.\n\"(Sauckel:) I have a Gau-armament supervisor in Thuringia and I have just be inspecting the plants in Thuringia. At the coach factory in Gotha I have set things going so that within a few days it will be turning out 20 per cent of its production again. Everything has been done. But one thing you must bear in mind: Labor commitment as an institution must be independent and must remain so. Furthermore I must ask you not to support constantly the opinion of the Armament Inspectors: Sauckel must be put under the control of the Ministry then everything will be better. Gentlemen, please see to it that that does not happen this year.\n\"As a National Socialist of long standing I am determined to cooperate unreservedly with you, the Minister for Armaments and Production, indeed with all those gentlemen, but in consideration of the difficulty in this sphere of work, I must be given the amount of freedom to make decisions of my own which was guaranteed me by the Fuehrer's decrees and those of the Reich Marshal. I would never have taken on the task without these decrees, because I know it cannot be accomplished without them. I beg you, therefore, to create such an atmosphere as is necessary among the lower ranks too so that the Gau labor offices in the first place may be recognized as organizations which are entrusted to me and put at my disposal for keeping; the labor commitment in order on the lower levels.\nYour Honors, you can see from that that Sauckel insisted on working completely independently and insisted on deciding all questions alone. He fought all attempts to interfere with his work. It is also interesting to see this meeting of 1 March 1944. He mainly addresses the Minister of Armament Production who was Speer, who, at that time, was ill. At the same time he always addresses him as his most important opponent.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Dr. Bergold, we will take our recess.\nTHE MARSHAL:The Tribunal will recess for fifteen minutes.\n(A recess was taken)", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1258, "page_number": "998", "date": "13 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-13", "text": "THE MARSHAL:Tribunal Number II is again in session.\nDR. BERGOLD:May it please the Tribunal, I shall now continue with the reading; of this Exhibit No. 31, namely, the second page, page 1811 of the original:\n\"Sauckel: I would like to insist on the fact that in the future also the S-Plants be checked.\"\n\"S-Plants\" means Speer plants.\n\"--for the S plants, form a suction pump, and since it is known all over Italy and France that whoever works in the S-Plants is protected from any interference on my part is proved by the following fact: During the first three months I wanted to take out of Italy one million people before 30 May. In these two months hardly 7,000 men have come. That is just the difficulty; the bulk goes to the S--Plants, and only the dregs are left for employment in Germany. I would like to achieve yet that for the important plants in Italy at least the number of S-Plants be restricted, that is, that the number of S-plants be not increased.\n\"Schreiber: In Italy for every protected plant there is an a reement made. Moreover, beyond the situation on 15 February or 10 February, S-Plants arc established only with the approval of the services under me. We have them registered, and only when we aim at an agreement are they declared protected plants.\n\"Sauckel: They are to be combed through, but the people combed through are to be put only in other protected plants. Down there in Italy in your services there is a demand for 7,000 hands and more. The gentlemen are right to laugh at us, saying, What does that mean? You want people, but at the same time our great task must be the transfer of people.' I spoke with Leyers on Sunday and told him that I wished to have a conversation with the Gauleiter about this matter: If the labor offices state that there is still a certain surplus of hands employed, a commissioner appointed by General Leyers must then visit the respective plant, together with a commission of Gauleiter Sauckel, and they must examine the situation.\"", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1259, "page_number": "999", "date": "13 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-13", "text": "I shall skip a few sentences?\n\"Besides this, promises concerning nutrition have not been made to the extent we could have wished. The extra food, as we had planned it has not yet appeared at all so that there is no incentive felt; apart from this certain inner evolutions are influencing industry at present in Italy, with the result that especially the leading workmen who are so valuable for us partly fail to come to the factory anymore. They wait patiently until during the next three or four weeks, the elections and convocations in the factories concerning socialization and the introduction of commissars, etc. have been overcome.\"\nI shall skip a few more sentences:\n\"Sauckel: In Italy, it seems, things are going on smoothly in general, but not yet in France.\n\"Milch: When workmen are transferred, how are their families ensured?\n\"Sauckel: Automatically.\n\"Schieber: \"That is quite easy. If it is possible in any way, we shall have the whole personnel transferred to another factory.\n\"Sauckel: Years ago we made an investigation like this in France and saw that in German armament production, corresponding to districts A and B, some 600,000 workers wore occupied out of the total of some 2½ to 3 million metal workers we had anticipated. Therefore, there must still be some more metal workers hidden in France, people who were formerly in metal professions.\n\"Milch: So 75 per cent are still free, and 25 per cent are tied up in the S-industries.\n\"Sauckel: We have to deduct the prisoners of war who are new in Germany. But there are hundreds of thousands of skilled workers who, according to the agreements made, have returned to France and Belgium month after months\" Gentlemen, Your Honors, Sauckel says that at the same conference of 1 March 1944 in which he asserted that 200,000 were volunteers.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1260, "page_number": "1000", "date": "13 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-13", "text": "He says 100,000 according to the contracts, have returned. That is in a sense a contract, and after the experation of the contract, they may return. I am sure that was not compulsory labor. You can see how carefully you should check the statements made by Sauckel. The same Sauckel says that, the same man who said that in France there was no program on the basis of volunteers. He says that a few pages further on. This man, in other words, contradicts himself constantly.\nI shall proceed to the next page, page 1820 of the original:\n\"Sauckel: In reply to that I must ask you the following: What do you want to do now in Germany? In Germany you now have plane construction, the manufacture of highly expensive apparatus, complicated motor construction; you have here in general the most complicated manufactures in the world.\n\"If I brought the scum of French manpower to Germany for you, what would you get as regards production? We of the Labor Employment were always of the opinion in the French industries we must under all circumstances maintain a certain level of the trained workers and a certain degree of production. And we wanted to compel these French industries to lower their level of a hundred per cent skilled personnel for the benefit of the German industries which have been bled of their skilled hands. As General Plenipotentiary for the Employment of Labor, I considered my task to be not the bringing to Germany of the scum of Europe, but the bringing of efficient manpower. But a part of your gentlemen in France and in your Ministry too had no understanding for this. That I must say quite plainly. It would be mere child's play for me to bring you the refuse of Europe of you would be satisfied with it. I would simply grab all the whores and gigolos in Paris and put them at your dis posal; then I would not have to touch your armament industries.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1261, "page_number": "1001", "date": "13 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-13", "text": "But if I have to provide you with real workers who will prove efficient in Germany, then in France -- and that was just my program -- we must do the same as we did in every German plant and in every German enterprise; when a German company is split in two, some of the good workers and some of the bad ones had to be given up and not just the bad workers. And French armaments never were harmed thereby. It is a fact, is it not, that a French worker of quality produces the double amount if he is put in a German factory under German discipline, with German supervision and German welfare?\n\"If we agree to re-examine all S-plants -- and that is all I ask -and if we take out all superfluous expert workers and assistant workers, then we put them (a) at the disposal of the other French enterprises which need them to the extent that they need them, and when they are satisfied, I (b) have to request that if I am to carry out my program, then for these plants, too, workers must be transferred to Germany. If that is not approved of and it is insisted that the severe formula be observed -- S-plants are out of the question for labor commitments to Germany -- then, according to my experience, this program of January 4 can hardly be achieved.\"\nYour Honors, that was the program which the Fuehrer had drawn up according to which four million workers were to be sent to Germany.\nHe continues:", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1262, "page_number": "1002", "date": "13 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-13", "text": "That is the responsibility you have to bear and which I shift from my shoulder. I was told: why did you not take the Russian workers away in time, now they are in the Russian regiments. Exactly the same would happen here. My opinion is that the introducing of S-plants was altogether a great mistake which is damaging to the general interests of Germany. The French government jumped to that with the greatest cleverness.\" I shall skip a few sentences. I shall continue at the bottom of the page after he had explained how he wanted to get the workers. \"That is the way we did it the first year, and up to 700,000 Frenchmen came to the Reich according to the program. These were all decent trench workers. From the fall of this year on this came to an end. No more skilled French workers came, nor any others either. It was the entire collapse of the labor commitment built up the slogan: From now on no worker needs to go from France to Germany,\" You see that Sauckel here, in this famous conference, was acquainted with the fact that Speer and Milch wanted to bother him, and made it impossible to get labor in France, and that they protected the foreign laborers there, both from recruitment and drafting.\n\"KEHRL: May I briefly explain the point of view of the Minister. Otherwise the impression might be given that the measures applied by Minister Speer are incomprehensible or senseless and I would not like such an impression to be created. To us, the affair looks as follows: The assignment of labor for German purposes in France was of comparatively modest proportions up to the beginning of 1943, because the extent of the shifting over of production was limited to a few things with which the German capacity could not cope and beyond that to a few main industries. During all this time a great number of French volunteers have come to the Reich through you.\n(SAUCKEL: through compulsory recruitment too)\" Kehrl continues:\n\"The compulsory recruiting started when the voluntary recruiting did not longer produce enough.\"\n\"SAUCKEL: Among the millions of foreign workers who came to Germany 200,000 came voluntarily.\"", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1263, "page_number": "1003", "date": "13 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-13", "text": "Your Honors, you can see that that interpolation made by Sauckel was being debated in order to introduce an objection, in order to see that Speer was not right, because he himself said that hundreds of thousands had come to France on the basis of contracts. In other words, it's a discussion interpolation which is derived from a certain reason, regardless of the fact whether it is true or wrong, only in order to defend Sauckel before the plan of Speer and Milch.\n\"KEHRL: How much pressure was used, is a question I don't want to go into. Anyway, the recruiting was voluntary in its form. After this voluntary recruitment did no longer have results, the system of drafting according to age was adopted, and this had rather good results with the first age group. At least 80% of that age group were taken and sent to Germany. This started last year around June. In unison with the military development in Russia and the conclusions drawn from it by the western populations as to the development of the war, this drafting of the age groups had considerably less results as proved by concrete figures, that is, the men tried to avoid the drafting Germany according to age, by either not coming at all, or by not reporting for departure, or by leaving the train on the way. When they found out from first attempts of this kind in July and August that the German executive authorities were not in a position to or did not want to lay hands on those eluding their obligations, and either imprison them or take them to Germany by force, the willingness to comply with this drafting decreased to a minimum and only rather low percentages were thus drafted in the various countries.\"\nYour Honors, you can see from this that even in France the age group drafting, on the basis of labor assignment of the labor assigned, according to the law of the French government, was not considered a compulsory measure. But the people did not come in spite of those laws, and they finally found out that the German executive office did not compel the people to come to Germany, then they didn't come at all. However, I shall continue: \"However, these people fearing that the German executive authorities might be able to track them, did not go to French, Belgian, or Dutch enterprises, but hid in the mountains where they were befriended and sheltered by small partisan groups 1003a which were there.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1265, "page_number": "1004", "date": "13 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-13", "text": "The consideration which originated at that time with Minister Speer and which led to the arrangement with Bichelonne was the following: If I cannot transfer the people by force from France to Germany to the extent necessary, which is shown by developments now, and if at the same time I run the danger of having the people leave the plants in which they are now working . for fear of being taken by force, then it is a lesser evil for me to try and put these people to work in France and Belgium, in which case I do not have to use German force to get them across the frontier. Then at least I am sure that the people arc not running away from the plants Am the first place and secondly that additional employment will be brought there.\"\nI shall skip a few technical words concerning the agreement with the Bichelonne. \"So far Minister Speer had chiefly shifted to France all the urgent armament productions in these fields in which the German capacity was insufficient. Now he said: I will not only shift to France, but I will also shift really important war production, which is carried out at present in Germany with German labor, so that I can release German labor in Germany And have this production carried out in France, Belgium, and Holland. There is sufficient capacity in this field in France and labor is also available in sufficient numbers. Therefore a large part of the work can be accomplished there and I can release the people in Germany. Thereby I am serving two ends: in the first place I am setting free German labor and secondly I am utilizing the French workers who are not working at all now because industry is at a standstill. And there is still a third factor, that Frenchman will be ready of their own accord to carry out such production as serves the welfare of the civilian population, because with such work they are no longer in danger of air raids and they are not working directly for the war, So that they will net be considered as traitors to their own country, but are working for the advantage of their own country.\n\"This development has been encouraged in the meantime. The time is still too short to make any definite statement as to the results. In some fields the results are already quite exceptional. In some instances we have transferred up to 50% and more of the total German requirements to the best and the manufacturing is done there.\"", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1266, "page_number": "1005", "date": "13 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-13", "text": "The last paragraph of this page: \"The idea in fact is this: to carry out there the work which up to now has been done here and to release thereby German labor. There is yet another reason for this. It has been pointed out by you time after time, Gauleiter, that in these sections of industry, it is not easy to change the workers. According to the Fieldmarshal's description of the situation, there is especially a lack of managers and supervising personnel in the works and only German workmen can be considered for such, and every worker, even if technically he is not so suitable, will serve for purposes of management supervision and will lend some backbone to the plant.\n\"As regards the question f the S-plants, Minister Speer put the following question to Minister Bichelonne: are you in a position to provide the labor for such an extensive shifting program, which involves a certain risk? to which Bichelonne, from his standpoint quite rightly replied: if the people are not running away into the woods for fear of being deported to Germany; I shall get them to work in French plants. From this discussion there resulted the idea of protected plants which, as you said, were supposed to represent a protection against Sauckel. Whoever is there is working for Germany and may not be deported to Germany. You\" - Sauckel -- \"said that those plants worked like a suction-pump. That is just what they were meant to do. Labor was to be drawn in with a suction process so that the plants were full to capacity and should work for us. The existence of the S-plants cannot and may not be undermined. It is backed by the German promise which was given in all solemnity and which was supported by the signature of my Minister.\"\nYour Honors, you can see very clearly what these two other men want. They want peace. They want peace among the foreign workers, and they want to protect these workers before Sauckel. That Germany needed a number of goods which had to be produced is clear, but they were to be produced in France on a voluntary basis by Frenchmen. Sauckel's reply to this is very interesting. It's on page 1835 of the original, page 12 in the English.\n\"May I again draw attention to the matter of volunteers and to the entire process of the employment of French labor. There was never any program carried out in France on a voluntary basis, but the programs have been carried out for the TODT Organization, the building of fortresses in France, on the one hand, and for the assignment in France to the plants working for Germany and also to the plants working for transferred industries according to concrete agreements which I made with the French government, on the other hand.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1267, "page_number": "1006", "date": "13 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-13", "text": "The French government fulfilled these conditions last year. It appointed people for the Western fortifications and for the Atlantic fortifications, it appointed people for the plants and it appointed people for Germany. In the fall of last year, towards the end of summer, Laval declared for the first time that he was not going to send any more people to Germany and from then on only very few Frenchmen arrived in Germany.\"\nThat was from the direction of the French industries. You can see how Sauckel likes to distort the facts in order to fight against the struggle of Speer and Milch, and that he is not afraid to say lies, in order to reach his aims. He contradicts himself, because before he said hundreds of thousands came back on the basis of contracts, namely as volunteers. I shall conclude reading this documents", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1268, "page_number": "1007", "date": "13 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-13", "text": "DR. BERGOLD:Now, as I conclude the reading of this document, I will next refer to \"page 1843\" of the original. I read as follows:\n\"TIMM: Will it not happen that the offices making the demands any one day: but we know that in the French plants there is an excess of skilled workers which cannot be justified?\n\"MILCH: That should be discussed again later with Speer himself. First Speer must have a survey of what has happened as the result of all his agreements.\"\nYour Honors, you can see that this meeting of the first of March was presided over by Milch more or less as a representative of Speer, and that Speer reserved to himself the final decision. Speer was sick at that time. That has been already cleared up. And therefore Milch only carried out the discussions which Speer had scheduled beforehand for himself. It was clear that the whole session was devoted to the clearing up of the situation.\nI next refer to the document already mentioned, \"From the FuehrerMinutes 1982, points of discussion from the Fuehrer-Conference of the 21 and 22 April 1982, quoting Speer, concerning the feeding of the Russian prisoners of war. This is on page 7 of the original, the last paragraph. This will be my next exhibit number, and it is on the following or next page after the one I have already read. It is marked page \"13\" at the bottom, and as I have already pointed out I believe, is from the Fuehrer-Minutes of 1942, and I quote from the discussion at this conference, (page 7 of original, last paragraph) Speer speaking:\n\"20. The Fuehrer explains clearly in a long argument that he does not approve the bad nutrition of the Russians. The Russians must absolutely be given sufficient nutrition, and Saucek has to see to it that this nutrition will not be guaranteed by Backe.\nBY DR. BERGOLD: So you see, from this, your Honors, that this was saying that Sauckel was pursueing the wrong measures, and it was being done despite the orders of Himmler and Milch was not present nor did he assist The next document I shall refer to is from the \"Fuehrer Conference on 30 May 1943\" concerning the working of Russian prisoners of war in nines.", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1269, "page_number": "1008", "date": "13 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-13", "text": "This will be Exhibit No. 33.\nBY THE PRESIDENT: \"33\"?\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes, your Honor. (\"From page no. 278 to 280\") of the original. Your honors, I would appreciate it, if you would look at this record; on the right hand side you will see a number of names, namely: \"Schieber, Pleiger, Sauckel, Backe, Keitel, Waeger\". As to those who were involved, the left hand side of the page always stated the names, and under point \"19.\" it shows who had received a copy of the various points, because he was responsible for it, and he had to do the work. In other words, those are the Fuehrer's records cited by the Prosecution and the only person concerned is the one whose name is mentioned on the left hand side of the document. I shall read number \"19\". \"The coal situation causes the Fuehrer to call a meeting of Pleiger, Sauckel, Backe, and Reitel with him. At this meeting there shall be discussed the sufficient allocation of labor for the coal district, the procurement of Russian prisoners of war from agriculture and industrial wareconomy (as far as they are employed as assistant workers) against replacement by other workers from the Ukraine, Poland etc. Furthermore it is intended to improve the nutrition of the German miners, if possible, still more then up to the present. The Russians shall get abundant additional rations, which will be distributed by the manager of the plant on the basis of efficiency.\nApart from this the Germans - and especially also the Russian prisoners of war - shall receive a compensation for special performances, in the form of tobacco and similar things. From page 14, that is as far as I will read. You can see that orders were always executed to these people, properly to give an additional quality.\nI am introducing those documents, my reason being to refute the Prosecution's claim and to show so far as Milch was concerned that these things did not happen; that it came under the other organization, that of Sauckel.", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1270, "page_number": "1009", "date": "13 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-13", "text": "That is the reason I will read number \"20.\"\nHere, again, you can see the names on the left hand side, and your Honors will note that Milch is actually mentioned here. This is on page 15:\n\"20.) The Fuehrer desires that in areas which will certainly be often attacked by enemy planes (Ruhr District) (Krupp-Essen) about 100 to 200 projector batteries be installed, which by way of experiment, fire numerous rockets at the altitude of the enemy planes, which has been ascertained. Part of these rockets will unfurl wire when they detonate. The Fuehrer expects to obtain important and net only psychological results from concentrated attacks on such objectives through concentrated un-armed mass-fire. Milch and Dernberg have to voice their opinion on this subject.\nBY DR. BERGOLD:\nYour Honor, in order to protect the homeland. I will now offer this document No. 124; this will become Exhibit No. 34. This is \"From the Fuehrer-Minutes of 6 January 1944, concerning Speer's report on the French Labor situation. That is the record which was read at the session of the Central Planning Board of the 16 February 1944 and the 1st of March. These records were the ones mentioned before. Those of the 6 January 1944 \"Fuehrer-Conference of 1 to 4 January 1944 (number 8) (Page 3 of the original)\":\n\"The Fuehrer has been informed of the differences of opinion with the Plenipotentiary for the Allocation of Labor. According to my arguments the principle thing is to exploit the industry of France for Germany to a larger extent, in order to be able to locate there about 1 million additional workers. In comparison with this Sauckel is of the opinion that first of all workers have to be brought to Germany.\nDR. BERGOLD:Your Honors, you can see on the left hand side of the marginal note: \"Kehrl Waeger\" but Not Milch. \"The Fuehrer explains that in his view the transfer to France is of extreme importance, be it only on account of the possibility to increase the production of iron connected therewith.", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1271, "page_number": "1010", "date": "13 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-13", "text": "In spite of this, in his opinion, one cannot do without bringing additional French labor to Germany. It must therefore be attempted to find a happy union of both things. In this connection, he proposes to designate protected works in France, in order to induce the French to work in these plants,.... through the pressure of allocation of labor for Germany. He affirms again upon my statement, that the protected plants have already been established, the importance of this institution and the necessity to create here a basis of long range confidence. He thinks that it is my affair whether I will be able to do without French Labor or not; Sauckel would be only happy if I would do without them. (page 4 of original) Upon my reply that not only this is concerned, but that also the question of the executive power is involved, since otherwise a loss of prestige for Germany and a disorder in the allocation of French Labor would be inevitable, the Fuehrer declares that this is, of course, one of the most important bases for further discussions. I then told him that on 3 January there will be a meeting between Himmler, Keitel, Sauckel and myself (Kehrl) (is the Foreign Office to be included?), at which these problems will be discussed. Subsequently there shall be a meeting with him, at which the possibility of executive power in France, as far as the allocation, and the transport of French workers to Germany is ccncerned will be laid before him. (Kehrl to do advance work, that we also make a claim for executive power for the protection of the factories in France against partisans.)", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1272, "page_number": "1011", "date": "13 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-13", "text": "I shall now proceed to another document; namely a written statement made by Karl Wolff, of 21st November, 1946, which will become Exhibit No. 35, on page 18 of this document book. Karl Wolff -- he is the man who was mentioned here repeatedly under the name of Wolffie; dear Wolffie.\nMR. DENNY:If your Honors please, I object to the admission of any statement by Wolff because there is great doubt as to the man's competency at this time; he was in London as a British prisoner; and later, I believe he is now in Italy, and I don't think that this statement should be admitted. We may be able to get a statement from the British medic I authorities as to his competency; however, at this time I do not think it should be accepted.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Is it a question of his Mental competency last November?\nMR. DENNY:Yes, your Honor. If the Court wanted to take it provisionally to save time, I have no objection at all.\nTHE PRESIDENT:I think we are obliged to do that; if it appears later that this is a statement from an incompetent witness, it can be stricken; but I can't anticipate that showing.\nMR. DENNY:Very well, sir.\nDR. BERGOLD:I am now introducing this statement because I am afraid that Wolff, who was granted me as a witness, might not arrive here in time; if he is in Italy now, I don't believe they will get him here in time for this trial; but I'd rather have him here.\nI shall read the document; \"Karl Wolff, London, 21 November 1946. Subject; Low Pressure and Freezing Experiments in Concentration Camps.\n\"Having received knowledge of the documents in the possession of the court, and after the following exhibits have been submitted to me and I have read them.\n16 March 1942 Letter Wolff to Hippke 7 May 1942 Letter Hippke to Wolff 20 May 1942 Letter Milch to Wolff 20 July 1942 Letter Rascher to Brandt 25 August 1942 Letter Himmler to Milch 31 August 1942 Letter Milch to Himmler 3 November 1942 Letter Himmler to Milch 23 November 1942 Letter V. Herff to Wolff 12 January 1943 Letter Sievers to Wolff 4 February 1943 Note Sievers to Brandt Basic Idea and Basic Direction of the Experiments.", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD", "MR. DENNY", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1273, "page_number": "1012", "date": "13 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-13", "text": "\"In this case it becomes so complicated that of the two men responsible to be clarified as Himmler and Rascher, a primary condition is to be taken into consideration in order to give the right value to the extraordinary strong tendency of Himmler to all his new experiments; and all the fields of science and life; and also, the peculiar background of his personal relationships to Dr. Rascher's wife.\n\"Aside from the fact that Himmler concerned himself with all the question of race, of increasing the German birth rate and its quality, was the German Lebensraum (Vital Space) policy in the East as well as was Aryan-Germanic excavations, constant experiments were one of the most beloved hobbies of the Reich Fuehrer SS Himmler. This letter tendency went from the extreme ideal to the extreme material field. Below I shall quote a few typical examples out of greAt number. (last word inserted with pencil).\n\"Every soldier and ex-service man has to admit that the abolition of locks in the barracks of the SS, which Himmler decreed for the Waffen SS was a revolutionary experiment on the basis of the SS basic law of the holiness of property. In the cultural field also, he had experiments conducted until the SS factory Allach for porcelain succeeded in producing friedericianic and SS horsemen of which the moving horses were carried only by their two logs exactly as it is in reality, without the artificial support under the belly of the horse which otherwise was always needed even by the most famous manufactures for techno-statical reasons. With regard to the experiments in the field of mental science, suggested by or ordered by Himmler, the president of the \"Ahnenerbe\" and, SS Ober-Fuehrer Processor Wuest, former dean and director of the University of Munich is the best man to give information. But Himmler was also constantly active during the war as an untiring initiator sponsor, full of imagination, where the improvement of food, clothes, equipment, health, and sports in the SS were concerned. (1 word inserted with pencil).\n\"Thus the introduction of the old Germanic oatmeal porridge against all resistance based on the difference of taste, instead of the morning coffee which had become a tradition in the German armed Forces, as well as the serving of milk, an excellent cheap mineral water in the S. S, canteens, in order to reduce the consumption of beer, etc.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1274, "page_number": "1013", "date": "13 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-13", "text": ", are his, Himmler's achievements. Also, during the war, the production and use of vitamins and calorie concentrates for the Waffen SS and even for SS mothers and SS children before the Armed Forces introduced it. Furthermore, the invention of the camouflage umbrellas, camouflage jackets, and camouflage suits, which, to the envy of its comrades in the Armed Forces, the Milch had become a tradition in the German Armed Forces, as well as the serving of milk, and excellent, especially cheap mineral water in the SS canteens, in order to reduce the consumption of beer, etc.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1275, "page_number": "1014", "date": "13 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-13", "text": ", are his, Himmler's achievements. Also, during the war, the production and use of vitamins and calorie concentrates for the Waffen SS and even for SS mothers and SS children before the Armed Forces introduced it. Furthermore, the invention of the camouflage umbrellas, camouflage jackets, and camouflage suits which, to the envy of its comrades in the Armed Forces, the Waffen SS had for a long time as first and only unit in front assignment, as well as, in October 1941 in Russia, real winter fur clothing. Further achievements of Himmler are the developing financing of the first German amphibious automobile, and promoting and practical application of new natural remedies with the SS and his own circle of friends. (Magethepathia, applied by Setzkern, Berlin, and massage of the whole nervous system, applied by the doctor of natural medicine, Felix Kersten, Berlin-Hartzwalde.)\n\"That Himmler during these experiments did not refrain from including himself or his subordinates in the SS; that is proved already by the fact that in peace time he already introduced the obligation, for every member of the SS who was not excused fully by medical certificates to pass the sports exams for the Reich Special Insignia. He, himself, forced his untrained body in a month long strenuous training to pass this exam in spite of the fact that he was not a sportsmen at all, and in 1936 he obtained the insignia at the same time as I. In 1938 and 1939 he wanted to replace this insignia by an SS sport insignia with harder conditions including an additional test of courage consisting of a parachute jumping from an airplane.\nJUDGEMUSSMAN0: What has this long econium on the great virtues of Himmler got to do with the present issue?\nDR. BERGOLD:I just wanted to read the most important part, as Mr. Denny was not quite sure as to the mental condition of the man. I want to show how he explained all those experiments and I just wanted to skip a few pages.", "speakers": [ "JUDGE", "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1276, "page_number": "1015", "date": "13 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-13", "text": "I shall now read from the continuation of page 2 of the original:\n\"The idea of Himmler's concerning these experiments: this showed the relationship of the Reichsfuehrer SS with Rascher's wife Mimi Diehl.\"\nI shall skip a few sentences here: \"I only know that she was a 'persona gratissima' with Himmler in the pattern of whose prejudiced opinion the fact fitted in excellently, 'a woman of good race even of 48 to 49 years, as demonstrated by the example Rascher can still produce in quick sequence three well formed children.! I deem it impossible that at that time there existed any unlawful intimate relations between Himmler and Mimi Diehl-Rascher.\"\nI will skip a few more sentences; I shall continue on page 3 of the original, page 22 of your Honors, he said: \"that these children which were born of this woman were stolen from other people.\" This just shows what this man Rascher was: \"The spiritual father of the idea to carry out such experiments in a concentration camp was the Stabsarzt in the reserve of the Luftwaffe, Dr. Rascher. I knew from the preliminary explanations given to me by Himmler when we drove together from Munich in a car to Dachau which we went to see a demonstration on some low pressure experiments at the end of 1942, February, 1942.\"\nI skip a few more sentences, which are not important, and I shall continue on page 3 of the original, page 23 of your Honors the underlined sentences: \"Therefore, Himmler was altogether responsible for making possible the execution of the experiments in the concentration camps, while Dr. Rascher was the executive law. I shall continue: \"Right after the arrival in the concentration camp, Dachau, Dr. Rascher started with his experiments. About 10 prisoners were standing in front of their barracks. They looked quite detached and one after the other they climbed willingly into the low pressure chamber which was built into an automobile. Each experiment took only a few minutes, in accordance with the height that was imitated and with the normal falling speed of the human body. After they had left the low pressure chamber it took the prisoners only about two minutes until, lying on a blanket on the floor of the barracks, they had recovered from the short 1015a endurance test.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1278, "page_number": "1016", "date": "13 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-13", "text": "After that, in the knowledge of what they had just achieved they became actually confiding None of them were political prisoners, they were all rightly and lawfully declared to be unworthy for military service because of a strong criminal record.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1279, "page_number": "1017", "date": "13 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-13", "text": "\"They emphatically assured Himmler in my presence that in this manner, after a request to get a chance to prove their value at the front had been rejected, they had at least made a voluntary, modest contribution for Germany with their own persons, and that thereby they wanted to prove their good-will which really existed. Thereupon Himmler promised then to use his influence with the Fuehrer to obtain their release and the front assignment they wanted.\nI shall skip a few sentences and then I shall proceed with the continuation of page four of the original part that is translated:\n\"As far as I recollect I have gained no knowledge from Himmler of from any other sources of the fact that the later on low pressure experiments, for instance, were carried out on inmates, on a non-voluntary basis. I had no part in any freezing experiments whatsoever. The office I held at that time, responsibility and position taken with regard to the low pressure and freezing experiments.\"\nI shall skip one paragraph and shall continue on the reverse of page four of the original:\n\"During the period of the experiments in the concentration camp, in other words, from the 1st of May until the 18th of February 1943, I was, it is true, in a leading position. However, I had no active part in the conducting of the experiments or in the reports and expert work on them. This work was assumed by Dr. Rascher, /Dr. Romberg, Sievers and Dr. Rudolf Brandt.\"\nThis is on page four of the original--the reverse of this:\n\"For the rest of it I have only signed, in the best of faith, and according to orders given by the Reichsfuehrer SS, the few requests sent to me by the responsible exports Sievers and Dr. Brandt.\"", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1280, "page_number": "", "date": "13 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-13", "text": "For the information of these orders which had already taken place by Dr. Rascher apart from the low- pressure as well as his assignments of the Luftwaffe to the SS within the framework of his duties. I shall skip a paragraph.\n\"As in general, the Reichsfuehrer SS signed only letters addressed to persons of his own rank, it was to me that on his orders--a year long custom, occuring almost every day--the letter to Generalloberstabsarzt Dr. Hippke of 16 April 1942 was sent, together with other mail, for signature. This letter, 1017a the photostat of which has been submitted to me, has obviously been drawn up and written in the office of Sievers, Ahnenerbe, consequently neither by myself nor by my personal reporter, Proff:", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1281, "page_number": "1018", "date": "13 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-13", "text": "neither my usual dictation initials nor those of my reporter are on the document, but down on the right side, at the end of the letter next to my rank, there is an initial unknown to me and not belonging to my inner staff. M. Dr. Furthermore, the writing next to the initial reads \"Lieutenant General of the Waffen SS\", and therefore the letter \"Lieutenant\" had to be crossed out by myself, for I had been promoted on 30 January 1942 to the rank of SS-Ober ruppenfuehrer and Commanding General of the Waffen SS. Every member of my staff, at that time had known that already for two and a half months, and was quite familiar with the fact that the rank of SS-Obergruppenfuehrer which was indicated correctly in the document corresponds and entitled to the grade \"General of Waffen SS.\" Therefore the compose of this letter was not a military agency but the scientific agency \"Das Ahnenerbe\". As the contents were only pertaining to the prolongation of an already existing assignment, and as shortly before I had witnesses in Dachau that the prisoners had undoubtly voluunteered and were acting in their own interest, I had no reason, whatsoever, not to sign.\"\n\"The answering letter of Hippke of 7 May 1942 which was addressed to me, is another example, on the postal reception in the left lower corner of the letter the mark is \"RF\", meaning Reichsfuehrer SS, and not \"CH. F.\" meaning Chief of the Personal Staff--Wolf. And in fact my usual handwritten initial \"W\" is not on the letter either. Therefore, this letter had not even been submitted ted to me.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1282, "page_number": "", "date": "13 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-13", "text": "\"The telegram to General Field Marshal Milch ***** has apparently been sent off with simply my name under it, by Dr. Brandt for reasons of urgency and of geographical distance.\n\"The answering letter of Field Marshal Milch of 20 May 1942, addressed to me does not bear my handwritten initial \"W\", and has therefore not been submitted to me either.\n\"The letter of Dr. Rascher to Dr. Brandt of 20 June 1942 is also marked \"RF\" in the left lower corner of the postal reception stamp. As far as I 1018a recall I have net seen the work cf Rascher and Romberg on \"Experiments for rescue or so great heights\" which is mentioned in this letter.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1283, "page_number": "1019", "date": "13 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-13", "text": "Besides, this letter proves that Himmler had practically assumed the right to get the first report and that he decided, after a preliminary censoring, that Milch should receive reports of conferences and films on the results of the experiments and what he should get.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1284, "page_number": "1020", "date": "13 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-13", "text": "\"The first paragraph of Milch's letter of thanks to Himmler of 31 August 1942 shows that at that time apparently everything was all right because otherwise lectures and films 'with Milch's gentlemen' would not have been conceivable and possible. As to the second paragraph I have to say that Milch contacted Himmler, mostly after longer intervals, for general discussion on the whole situation, on the condition of the armament industry, and on his constantly increasing worries and discrepancies with Goering.\"\nI will skip a few sentences.\nMR. DENNEY:I wonder would Dr. Bergold be good enough to read the balance of this paragraph.\nDR.BERGOLD: \"I always promoted with all means at my disposal the occasional meetings between Milch and Himmler. They took place quite informally at common meals or with a cup of coffee and a good cigar. They were extremely valuable for Himmler, who wanted to keep informed of everything while they were extremely important for Milch who had fallen in disgrace with Goering and for whom Himmler's backing was only a question of self-preservation.\"\n\"In Himmler's letter to Milch of 3 November 1942 on page 1, line 2, the words 'by SS Obergruppenfuehrer Wolff' are crossed out. This also proves that the experiments conducted at that time had not received Milch's attention through my persuasion, but only prolongations of assignment of minor importance on the request for Rascher's transfer from the Luftwaffe into the SS. Besides, this letter contains in the middle of the first and on the second page Himmler's admittal to assume personally and abne the responsibility for all experiments.\"\nYour Honor, I wish to add here that the witness did not submit a letter to Milch - his own personal letter to Milch - and that is why he was left in confusion as to the fact that Himmler's letter was just a draft.\n\"The letter addressed to me on 23 November 1942 by von Herff, Chief of the SS personnel, confirms that I had now directed into the channels of the competent Chief of SS personnel, the transfer of Rascher from the Luftwaffe into the SS, transfer aimed at by the Reichsfuehrer SS. Unfortunately, Herff died on 6 September 1945 in the PW Camp No. 1 in England as a consequence of an apoplexy of the brain.\"", "speakers": [ "DR.", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1285, "page_number": "1021", "date": "13 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-13", "text": "Shall we call a recess, Your Honor?\nTHE PRESIDENT:Yes, and the Tribunal does not plan to sit this afternoon. You can continue the reading of these documents after the witnesses whom you will use on Friday and Monday testify. The Tribunal will recess until tomorrow morning at 9:30.\nTHE MARSHAL:This Tribunal is in recess until 0930 tomorrow corning.\n(The Tribunal adjourned until 0930 hours, 14 February 1947.)", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1286, "page_number": "1022", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "Official transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America, against Erhard Milch, defendant, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 14 February 1947, 0930-1630, Justice Toms presiding.\nTHE MARSHAL:The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal 2.\nMilitary Tribunal 2 is now in session. God save the United States of America and this honorable Tribunal.\nThere will be order in the courtroom.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The Tribunal wishes to announce that it will run until 1 o'clock today and reconvene at 2:30.\nDR. BERGOLD: May it please the Tribunal, may I call the witness Romberg since the first witness has been excused because of illness?\nTHE PRESIDENT:The Marshal will produce the witness Hans Romberg.\nHANS WOLFGANGROMBERG, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:\nBY THE PRESIDENT:\nQWhat is your name?\nAHans Wolfgang Romberg.\nQRaise your right hand and repeat after me: I swear by God, the almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and withhold and add nothing.\n(The witness repeated the oath).\nTHE PRESIDENT:You may sit down.\nDIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. BERGOLD:\nQWitness, I would appreciate if you would speak slowly and, furthermore, I wish that you would make a pause after ovary question I ask you in order to enable the translators or interpreters to follow you. Would you tell this Tribunal your first name and last name.\nAHans Wolfgang Romberg.", "speakers": [ "HANS WOLFGANG", "A", "THE PRESIDENT", "Q", "THE MARSHAL" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1287, "page_number": "", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "QWhen were you born?\nAOn the 15th of May, 1911.\n1022 a", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1288, "page_number": "1023", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "QWhat was your position towards the end of the war, and what was your official position?\nAAt the end of the war I was Division Chief of the Division for High altitude Research at the Institute for Aviation Medicine, in the German experimental station for aviation in Berlin Adlershof.\nQWitness, do you know Mr. Milch personally?\nANo, not personally.\nQDid you ever see him anywhere before the end of the war?\nANo, I never saw him personally.\nQWitness, you participated in those so-called first high-altitude experiments which were carried out by you together with Dr. Ruff and Dr. Rascher?\nA Yes, that is correct.\nQOnce during an examination on the 29th of October 1946 - you have ....\nDR. BERGOLD:May it please this Tribunal, this is Exhibit No. 107, NORM 391, which is in document book No. 5 b of the prosecution. It is page 133, Your Honors.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The Tribunal feels that it is proper to state to the witness that he may refuse to answer any question the answer to which might tend to incriminate or degrade him.\nDR. BERGOLD:Thank you, sir. May it please this Tribunal, I am of the same opinion, only I couldn't say so myself because I had to follow German usages where the German lawyer has no right to tell him that, it is up to the Tribunal to toll the witness. Thank you, Your Honors.\nBY DR. BERGOLD:\nQWitness, is it correct that in your institute you carried out self experiments and you already attained the altitude of 17,000 meters?", "speakers": [ "A", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1289, "page_number": "", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "AYes, that is correct.\nQThese experiments, were they carried out with oxygen masks or without oxygen masks?\nAThat differed. Part of the experiments were carried out with them and some without them according to their purpose.\nQWere these experiments so called climbing experiments or falling experiments?\nAThose were pressure, rapid reduction in pressure experiments.\n1023 a We took certain heights and further experiments were carried out with rapid reduction in pressure and most of the time with rapid reduction in pressure from 8,000 to cloud-level.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1290, "page_number": "1024", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "QWitness, I shall submit to you now the report of the 26th of July 1942 which also is signed by you and which should be known to you.\n(Paper handed to witness.)\nIn this report an experiment is being described which was carried out on an experimental subject which was called no. Was that an inmate who was under your supervision or was it you yourself?\nAThat was I.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1291, "page_number": "1025", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "QThis can clearly be seen from the contents. However, we have certain doubts about that. Witness, was this experiment under particularly difficult circumstances experimental circumstances which were out of the normal series of experiments?\nAYes. Very often we carried out self-experiments besides the others - in order to carry out the observation on ourselves and that experiment was particularly different from all of the others because with oxygen we stayed at an altitude of 13,000 motors and we stayed there for quite a while.\nQIn other words, you were still conscious or did you become unconscious?\nAYes. In that experiment I did become unconscious. However, that is an accident that does happen sometimes.\nQThe other experiments which you described in that report, they were carried out so that the experimental subject after it had attained the presumed altitude had taken off the oxygen mask and then became unconscious?\nAYes, that was the reason of the experiments because we wanted to see what would happen after they had suffered a lack of oxygen.\nQWhen you climb up to that height you wanted to attain did you have the pressure pains which you felt during your experiments on yourself?\nANo, these pressure pains did not occur because of the total time we were up in that altitude was shorter and, of course, because the experimental subjects did not have an oxygen mask and therefore became unconscious right away. Tho most important thing, however, is the time, yes.\nQNow, I shall come back to my first question; in the beginning before you carried out these experiments did you carry out self-experiments up to 17,000 meters?", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1292, "page_number": "", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "A Yes.\nQ Your experimental subject, did they ever mention to you that they had special physical pains during the experiments or didn't you ever ask the experimental subjects?\nA Yes, I did. Of course, we did, during the experiments as it was presumed there was no pain whatsoever.\nOnce in a while when climbing down the 1025 a ears were hurting and then, furthermore, it was seen that the experimental subject was pointing to his ears and then, of course, we started climbing down so much slower or reducing the pressure much slower.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1293, "page_number": "1026", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "QThere was only a certain buzz in your ears or pressure?\nAYes, it was a pressure of the ear-drum as minors feel it going down the mines.\nQIn other words, this may happen to any civilian going up the mountain? In a train?\nAYes, for these pains occur in particular also when small altitudes like 3,000 motors are reached.\nQWitness, in your report a sinking experiment from 20,000 meters is described which took quite a while and then on page 15 it says \"'37th minutes reacts to pain pain stimuli.\" What pain stimuli? Were those pain stimuli which were derived from the experiment? Or did you make a little test-experiment on him?\nAYes, we carried them out in the way a medical examination is carried out, namely, in order to examine the pain stimuli we point at the various parts of the body with a pencil and we want to know if the experimental subject can tell the difference between the pointed part of the pencil and the stem of the pencil, in order to find out what exactly is being felt. That can also be seen in the expression \"pain stimuli.\" One gives pain stimuli to find out what their reaction is to that.\nQIn other words, it is not a question here of carrying out tortures or cruelties of the subject, do you?\nANo.\nQSuch experiments, are they always carried out by all of the physicians?", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1294, "page_number": "", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "Various physicians, etc?\nA.Yes. This is part of every neurological examination of people who are sick.\nQ.Witness, in this report you stated that there were no death cases in your experiments?\nA.Yes.\nQ.Is this correct as regards this report or were there death cases at all and if there were any death 1026(a) Cases how did they happen?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1295, "page_number": "1027", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "In what framework?\nA The statement is correct because otherwise I would not have written it in that report. At that time, of course, there was no reason whatsoever to keep it secret -- keep such a death case a seccret and, furthermore, the whole technical development in this field which we carried out--which was prepare with these experiment would have led to wrong conclusions if a death case would have been kept a secret.\nA Witness, it has been stated that this Mr. Rascher had many death cases during experiments.\nA Yes.\nQ Were these experiments which were carried out the framework of the Luftwaffe experiments or what kind of experiments were they?\nA Those were experiments which Rascher carried out behind my back, for the greatest part at least, namely, upon orders by Himmler who had given him a special mission apart from these experiments. Then later on Rascher also had a death case during my presence there and as he did not pay any attention to my objection I reported the incident to Dr. Ruff in Berlin and he took the necessary stops in order to conclude the experiments as soon as possible.\nQ Witness, you just said in your presence. Wasn't that an experiment within the framework of this report?\nA No, it was an experiment which was completely outside of this framework of the experiments to save people from high altitude.\nQ Was that an experiments within the framework of Rascher's experiments?\nA When I asked Rascher what he had in view with these experiments, not only with these lethal but also with all of the other experiments which he carried out, he told me that these experiments had been ordered him by Himmler and that he wanted to rehabilitate himself and that these experiments were of no concern to him. Furthermore, he told me to keep it a secret by showing me a telegram of Himmler's in which this was expressed that nobody was supposed to knew about these experiments and, furthermore, as it was usual I had to sign a special paper personally that we had to keep everything that wont on 1027-A there a secret.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1297, "page_number": "1028", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "Q. \"Witness, in those experiments carried out by you which were carried out within the framework of this report, during those experiments did the inmates ever have any physical injury?\nA.No. The inmates were always examined before the experiments. We also made an electrocardiogram and that cardiogram was repeated after the conclusion of the experiment and by comparing the two electrocardiograms which will also show the smallest injury done to a human body, we saw that no injury resulted from these experiments.\nQ.Witness, what were you told with respect to the concentration camp inmates, namely, with respect to the question if they came voluntarily or upon order?\nA.I have to add a few more things. During the first proposal Dr. Ruff made in that respect, particularly referring to questions of saving people from high altitude, we spoke that these experiments be carried out on people who were sentenced to death or those who were sentenced to long jail terms, who had been at our disposal voluntarily. That was the reason why I agreed to carry out these experiments and this was a natural prerequisite for me. All of these experiments were always carried out on male volunteers. That is, students, doctors and other collaborators of ours and it was the Luftwaffe Institute that was interested in these experiments and it is important for an experiment that the experimental subject also cooperates and it is necessary that he does not resist mentally and that he tells the truth about what they feel during such an experiment. We were always dependent upon some sort of cooperation on the part of the experimental subject. Furthermore, we were dependent on the experimental subjects because we can't do everything, necessary ourselves and particularly in these high altitude experiments, one is unconscious in the decisive moments. That was one of the prerequisites by which I went to Munich to the Weltz Institute where I met Dr. Rascher for the first time.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1298, "page_number": "1029", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "Rascher also spoke of people who had been sentenced to death who had volunteered for these experiments; and he furthermore showed me a letter of Himmler during these conversations which gave him the necessary authorization for the execution of the experiments. Then there was a conference in Dachau itself where we decided that Rascher in cooperation with the camp commandant would call or select a number of experimental subjects. We requested right from the start that the people had to be healthy and of about the same age as our aviators, that is, between 20 and 35 years of age. They should be in good physical condition, and they had to get good food so that the experiments could be comparable with the healthy Luftwaffe personnel. The camp commandant said that Rascher was to select these people, from those people who volunteered, and he also told us the further details concerning food, cigarettes, etc., etc. Then I spoke with the experimental subjects myself, who also confirmed the fact. The reasons differed with everyone of these individuals, but as a whole they had volunteered for these experiments. And finally the whole behavior of these people was such that one could notice that they were actually cooperating.\nQ.Thank you. Witness, did you ever have the impression, not only an assumption, but I mean an incident from which you could understand that Milch knew all the details about these experiments?\nA.I am afraid I can't say a thing about that, because even though I know the documents now, it is difficult for me to tell. I know that during the experiments and after the experiments when I wrote out the reports myself, the name Milch was never mentioned in that Particular direction, and the first time where I heard that Milch had to know about these experiments Was when the film was to be shown at the RLM. That happened in the following manner, namely at that time I had just gone a journey, and a letter was forwarded to me which informed me that on the 11th of September there would be a film show, with the Secretary of State Milch, and that for that reason I had to be at the RLM, or Air Ministry.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1299, "page_number": "", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "When I was in Berlin again, as far 1029 a as I can remember, Colonel Tende called me up and informed me of the fact again verbally and gave me the exact time at which I had to appear at the Air Ministry, according to these instructions Rascher and I appeared at the Air Ministry in the morning.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1300, "page_number": "1030", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "Q.And only from this happening or incident you know or you think that Milch knows about the experiments?\nA.Yes.\nQ.During that film show was Milch present?\nA.No. Before the film show we were told that he would come very soon and then in the meantime they had started with the film show, and after the show we were told that the Secretary of State, Milch, had left Berlin or that he was with the Reichs Marshal. I don't remember exactly any more.\nQ.Could the spectators of this film gather from this film that during these experiments certain cruelties occurred, or that there were death cases?\nA.No. As far as death cases are concerned, in no case, because every experiment from the beginning to the end was obvious, from the beginning of the high altitude sickness up to the unconsciousness and up to the moment where they regained consciousness. In other words, you could see how the experimental subject lost consciousness and then regained consciousness.\nQ.Could one see the idea that cruelties were being committed there?\nA.That is very difficult to say, because I can't very well judge how such experiments would look, or rather, what kind of an impression it would leave on a layman. The experimental subjects were suffering cramps of the face, convulsions of the arms and the face which make certain grimasses visible. That is why it is very difficult to say what the effect of those people would be on a layman. It might affect a layman as an epileptic case or something similar to it and I really can't tell what kind of an impression a layman would get from such film shows.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1301, "page_number": "", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "Q.However, if there had been Luftwaffe personnel that had already 1030 (a) been submitted to such experiments, do you think they could understand that, or that they could come to such conclusions that there were cruelties?", "speakers": [ "Q." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1302, "page_number": "1031", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "A.For everyone who was submitted to such a low pressure chamber, or rather who had seen such a low pressure chamber, the sight of these convulsions and this unconsciousness is known to him from his own experience.\nQ.Witness, when did the experiments stop and finish and when was the low pressure chamber sent to Adlershof from Dachau?\nA.The low pressure chamber went back to Adlershof about towards the middle or the end of May; in any case, before Whitsuntide, Pentacote.\nQ.Later on was this chamber put at the disposal of the SS experiment again?\nA.No, later on we had those difficult situations and it was mainly so that the chamber was at Berlin when Rascher went to adlershof in order to write his report. And right at that time I was under a certain pressure. We asked for the chamber, or we got it back from Dachau, saying that we needed it very badly. The chamber was still there. We said, however, that we had to work on it. Some work had to be done on the chamber. I am sure that the chamber was lying around until august before it was used, and I was always afraid that Rascher might show up some day and would notice the chamber there. That he wanted the chamber is known to me. He repeatedly asked me to carry out some more experiments, to go with him, and I also know that according to Dr. Ruff that Himmler turned to Hippke or asked Hippke's assistance in that respect.\nDR. BERGOLD:I have no further questions to the witness. He is at the disposal of the Prosecution.\nCROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. DENNEY:\nQ.Witness, where did you study medicine?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1303, "page_number": "", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "A.In Berlin and in Innsbruck. I was not a soldier during the war.\nQWhen did you finish?\n1031 (a)", "speakers": [ "A.", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1304, "page_number": "1032", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "A.I finished my state examination in 1935 in March.\nQ.When did you enter the Wehrmacht?\nA.I entered the Wehrmacht in 1936-37 for a period of two months. I had my basic training and before the war I had some more training. In the beginning of the war I was under the supervision of the reserve, and during the war I was under the supervision of the reserve, and during the war I was not a soldier.\nQ.You were in the medical' department of the German army, were you not?\nA.No.\nQ.You were always in private practice?\nA.I was an employee of the German experimental station for aviation.\nQ.And did you take the Hippocratic oath?\nA.No, I never took the Hippocratic oat. That was at the time when I finished my examination. That was in Berlin. It was not usual to take that oath, at least not officially.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1305, "page_number": "1033", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "Q.Where you a member of the party?\nA.Yes.\nQ.When did you join?\nA.I joined in May, 1933.\nQ.You got in early.\nA.Well, yes, I joined the Party when quite a number of people joined the party.\nQ.We are talking about the National Socialist Party.\nA.Yes, indeed.\nQ.You told the Court that these people who were experimented on in Dachau were people who had been sentenced to death or long jail terms.\nA.Yes, that is correct.\nQ.So they didn't have to be somebody that may have been sentenced to death to be experimented on?\nA.No, they didn't have to be.\nQ.Now, you said a little later -- as a whole they volunteered for these experiments; what do mean by that; some of them did and some of then didn't?\nA.I can't remember -- I can't quite remember to have said 'as a whole'.\nQ.You may not remember it, but the statements was written down; and don't quibble; what do you mean by it?\nA.No, the people always came as volunteers.\nQ.Did you ask them when they came?\nA.I spoke to a great number of these people, and I asked them personally; and as far as the other experimental subjects were concerned, we had aggreed ever since the beginning; and further more, Rascher told me that they had volunteered, that is.\nQ.You didn't ask everybody who came there whether they were a volunteer or not; you know you didn't.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1306, "page_number": "1034", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "A.No, I didn't say I asked every one of them individually.\nQ.You don't know whether they were all volunteers or not, of your own knowledge?\nA.Well, I know that all the people I asked were volunteers because they told me so; and as far as the others are concerned, I believed it too, because Rascher told me so, and because we had agreed that with the camp commandant.\nQ.You are speaking now of Dr. Rascher, that fine honorable man that killed people, you say. You were afraid later on to let Rascher get back the chambers, you said?\nA.Yes, I didn't want him to carry out any more experiments.\nQ.When did you first begin to suspect Rascher?\nA.How do you mean that?\nQ.Well, when did you begin to think that Rascher wasn't an honorable man; you began to worry about him; you said you didn't want to associate with him any more; he was a terrible fellow. When did you first begin to think that?\nA.That was towards the end of April, after the death case.\nQ.After the death case you say; that was the death case you saw?\nA.Yes.\nQ.You understood how to work all this equipment, didn't you?\nA.What installations do you mean?\nQ.The low pressure chamber.\nA.Yes.\nQ.You were thoroughly familiar with the running of that chamber, weren't you?\nA.Yes.\nQ.You had experimented on yourself in it, hadn't you?\nA.Yes.\nQ.You were connected with the institute for aviation medicine research , weren't you?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1307, "page_number": "1035", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "A.Yes.\nQ.And some time later, in April, you and Rascher were there in the chamber and saw a man die; and what did you do about it?\nA.That death case was reported to Berlin, to Dr. Ruff, by me.\nQ.I am not talking about who you reported the death to. What did you do about it when the man was dying? I am asking you what you did.\nA.I tried to stop Rascher from doing that, and I drew his attention to the danger that existed, and that, according to my opinion, the experiment should be stopped, but Rascher continued the experiment, so finally, death occurred.\nQ.You and Rascher were by the chamber and somebody was there, and you knew all about the equipment, and you watched the indicators and the pressure valve, and you turned to Rascher and said the experiment should be discontinued immediately - the man is going to die. And Rascher didn't do anything, so you stood there and watched him die?\nA.I drew Rascher's attention to the fact that there was a danger and that the man could die, and I told him to stop the experiment.\nQ.Did he stop it? Answer the question. Did he stop it when you told him to stop it?\nA.No.\nQ.Did you stop it?\nA.I couldn't stop it.\nQ.Who did you report this to?\nA.To Dr. Ruff.\nQ.When?\nA.Shortly after that incident. I went to Berlin for that purpose, for that reason, and I told that to Dr. Ruff.\nQ.When was this; what was the date?\nA.I can't tell you the date exactly; it was probably toward the end of April.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1308, "page_number": "1036", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "Q.Somebody had died - and all you know is that it was probably toward the end of April?\nA.I can't tell you the date exactly.\nQ.Who was this man who died? Was he a member of the Luftwaffe?\nA.No, he was not a member of the Luftwaffe.\nQ.No, you don't experiment on people like that when you are going to kill them. Who was he?\nA.That was one of the inmates of the concentration camp.\nQ.Did you make any inquiry about who he was afterwards?\nA.No, I did not carry out any investigation.\nQ.Did you talk to him before he went to the chamber and ask him if he volunteered?\nA.I don't remember if I actually asked that man in particular.\nQ.You don't know whether he volunteered or not, do you? Answer the Question. Do you know whether or not he volunteered?\nA.I only know so far as Rascher told me.\nQ.Do you know of your own knowledge that the man volunteered? We will stay here all day today and all day tomorrow until you answer that. Don't tell me what Dr. Rascher told you; what do you know?\nDR. BERGOLD:May it please the Tribunal, I am of the opinion that the way in which Mr. Denney just got excited is not the correct way to do, and I would appreciate if he could somewhat lower his blood pressure.\nMR. DENNEY:If Your Honors please, I apparently got a little more excited about death than Dr. Bergold.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Mr. Denney, the risk you wish to incur, that is your liability. I think/though that the witness has answered the question when he said that all he knows about it is what Rascher told him.\nMR. DENNEY:If Your Honor please.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1309, "page_number": "1037", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "Q.How many other deaths do you know about that took place in Dachau?\nA.I know of two other death cases.\nQ.Who was responsible for these?\nA.Rascher.\nQ.Were you there when they took place?\nA.Yes, I was present.\nQ.Did you warn him in those cases?\nA.Before the experiment and during the experiment I couldn't quite realize that this would have been a lethal case, and, therefore, I did not warn him before the beginning of the experiment.\nQ.Did you warn him during the experiment?\nA.During the experiments I always observed the limit and I also warned Rascher to that effect, and I told him to be careful.\nQ.Answer the question, witness. During the experiments did you warn him that the people were going to die?\nA.I can't remember these experiments very well.\nQ.You remember very well that in the first case, the case of the tailor, that you warned him there, and then you went to Berlin and reported to Dr. Ruff because you were so shocked by it; and now, at a later date, you tell me deaths have occurred. Did you warn him during these experiments?\nA.Well, I would like to come back to the question; first, you said I mentioned here a tailor who had died. I don't know that; I don't even know if it was a tailor.\nQ.I didn't say that you said it was a tailor. I didn't say he was a tailor. Somebody else said it was a tailor. I don't mean to say to you that you said anything about a tailor. We will call it experimental death number one, and let's not argue about that. Tell the Court in this second death did you tell Rascher to stop.\nA.Well, yes, I am sure I told him that, if I could actually see that the experiments would be lethal. In other words, that the critical limit was attained, and that the experiment had to be stopped.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1310, "page_number": "1038", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "Q.You understood all the gadgets that were in the chamber, didn't you?\nA.Yes.\nQ.And you were a medical man who was specializing in this work?\nA.Yes.\nQ.And you had seen somebody die when Rascher was working on him?\nA.Yes.\nQ.But you don't know whether or not you told him to stop?\nA.As far as I can remember, the death that occurred was also very surprising to me, but I am sure that I always warned Rascher if the critical limit was actually reached.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1311, "page_number": "1039", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "QThen if Rascher did nothing, what did you do?\nAI told him that we should slow down now. However, Rascher hesitated a little longer, so that all of a sudden death occurred.\nQYou did not try to stop him?\nAWell, I did try to make him stop in so far as I drew his attention to the fact there was danger that death might occur, I also reported that to Dr. Ruff.\nQHow big a man was Rascher?\nAWell, maybe he was a little bit smaller than I was.\nQHe was not any giant, was he?\nANo.\nQNot one of those perfect specimens of Nordics, six feet six, and two-hundred and fifty pounds?\nANo.\nQWhom did you report these deaths to?\nAI reported these death cases to Dr. Ruff also.\nQDid you go to Berlin to see him?\nAI don't remember if at that time I was in Berlin, or if I reported it to him by telephone. I then discussed the matter with him personally.\nQWho was in charge of that place down there, you or Rascher?\nAThe whole arrangement of experiments, orientation, and the producing of experimental subjects I know of, and of directional questions were under the supervision of Rascher upon Himmler's orders.\nQThese last deaths that you saw, when did they occur?\nAThey occurred early in May.\nQAnd how many of them were there?\nATwo of them.\nQOn the same day?\nANo. I think they occurred on different days, two different days.\nQHow many days between the first death you saw, the one we talked about around the first of April, and the second death?", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1312, "page_number": "", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "AAt that time I was in Berlin.\nQHow many days elapsed between the first death that you mentioned in April, and the second one that you mentioned sometime in May? I don't care whether you were in Berlin or Garmisch?\n1039A", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1313, "page_number": "1040", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "AWell, I want to say that at that time I was in Berlin. It must have been a lapse of about fourteen days. Fourteen days.\nQFourteen days between the first death and the second one. How many days between the second death and the third one?\nAApproximately there was a pretty short time. Their sequence was rather short.\nQWell, how many days?\nAWell, maybe there might have been even one day after the other, or the following day. In any case they were very close together.\nQNow when the second death occurred, did you report that right away, or Aid you wait until the third death?\nAI can not remember that exactly. In any case I immediately reported it to Ruff.\nQBut you don't know whether you reported the second death individually, or waited until the third one, and then reported them both?\nANo, I don't remember that any longer.\nQWere these throe occasions the first time you had ever seen anybody die, witness?\nANo, of course, in the hospital I had seen more cases of people who died.\nQNow, when Rascher told you to keep this business of deaths a. secret, this was shortly after the death of the first subject. You recall that, that he told you that?\nAHe did not tell me that after the death case, but that he told me that ever since the beginning; namely, he showed me that telegram which was sent to him by Himmler, and the telegram came in on that at the end of February where Himmler demanded absolute secrecy.\nQYou tell the Court that \"Rascher had death cases in my presence, even though I objected, and I asked Rascher why he did it, and he said Himmler had ordered it. He told me to keep it a secret, and I signed a paper to the effect that everything that went on would be a secret.\"?", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1314, "page_number": "1041", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "AI did not say that with direct respect to that death case. I said that a telegram came at the beginning, and I also mentioned the signature. Rascher, however, repeatedly stressed the point that these experiments had been ordered of him by Himmler and that it was none of my business.\nQThese last two experimental subjects who died, did you ask them whether or not they had volunteered?\nAI can not remember all of that in detail. However, I believe that one of the two said that previously that he wanted to be experimented on.\nQDid he tell you that?\nANo. He did not tell me personally, but he said that to Rascher and I was standing by and I heard him do it.\nQDid it occur to you that he might ask the other one?\nAIf I had known that the man would have died, then I am sure I would have asked him.\nQWell, you had the first experiment in April, then you were in Berlin for two weeks, is that right?\nAYes.\nQThen you came back and then the first experiment took place in Dachau after you got back, whenever it was, did anybody die in these experiments?\nAYou mean during those first experiments we had?\nQYes.\nAAs I have mentioned before, no.\nQYou told the Court that the EKG, the electric cardiogram, shows any damage to the human body; you did not mean that, did you?\nAI said with respect to the heart, damage to the heart.\nQIt does not show any damage to the human body, does it?\nAWell, other damage could be seen during the general examination. The heart examination is the one that is very difficult, so that, of course, necessitates the electric cardiogram must be used.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1315, "page_number": "", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "QDoes the electric cardiogram show damage to the human body?\nAIt only shows damage to the heart.\nQDoes an electric cardiogram show damage to the human body, answer the question?\n1041 a", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1316, "page_number": "1042", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "THE PRESIDENT:I think he answered the question. At any rate the Tribunal understands it.\nMR. DENNEY:Very well, Your Honor.\nBY MR. DENNEY:\nQDo you know whether or not reports were sent on by Ruff so far as these deaths were concerned?\nAAt that time when I was in Berlin he told me he wanted to pass them on, and, of course, he would show it, and I am sure that he did it.\nQWhom did you report to there, Ruff?\nAAt that time without knowing for example, I only took it that they went to Hippke.\nQWell, Hippke was Ruff's superior, wasn't he?\nAThe superior relationship is a little difficult to explain in this case. He was only his superior as far as air medical research was concerned. He was not a direct military supervisor or superior.\nQ.Well, this was an air medical question, wasn't it?\nAYes.\nQDo you know of any other deaths that occurred down there in these experiments which you did not see?\nALater on I learned that Rascher had more death cases.\nQWhen did you find that out?\nAThe other experimental subjects told me that when the experiments took an end. In other words, they said they were glad all the chambers would be taken away now. Not because of them personally but because of research that would cause more death cases by Rascher.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "THE PRESIDENT", "MR. DENNEY", "Q", "A" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1317, "page_number": "1043", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "QWhen was that?\nAAs I mentioned before, it was at the termination of the experiments; in other words, when the chamber was removed.\nQAnd when do you say the chamber was removed?\nATowards the end of May.\nQWhat year?\nA 1942, '42.\nQNow, going back to this business of the showing of a film at the Air Ministry in Berlin, where were you when you got a letter saying that on 11 September 1942 there would be a film showing for Field Marshal Milch?\nAI was on leave at that time. I was at the Baltic Sea.\nQAnd the letter reached you sometime late in August or early in September?\nAYes, that is about correct.\nQAnd then pursuant to that letter you went to Berlin?\nANo, it wasn't that I had to break up my leave for that reason, but as far as I can remember, my leave was over and I drove back to Berlin. However, at that time I already knew that that film show would take place.\nQAnd when you were in Berlin Colonel Pendele called you to confirm the showing?\nAI can't remember everything that happened in detail. However, from this marginal note which I wrote myself I think I can remember that everything I said is correct. In other words, that Colonel Pendele called me up and he told me that the film show would take place on that date.\nQAt the Air Ministry in Berlin?\nANo, my office was inAdlershof.\nQWell, where was the film shown?\nAAt theAir Ministry.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1318, "page_number": "", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "QHe called you at Adlershof and told you to be over at the Air Ministry to show the film?\nANo, Colonel Pendele did not come to see me atAdlershof. He just told me by telephone.\n1043A", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1319, "page_number": "1044", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "QThat's all I said.\nAI thought that you said that he came toAdlershof.\nQAbout these last two people that were experimented on that died, were they members of the Luftwaffe?\nANo.\nQDo you know who they were?\nAThey were also concentration camp inmates.\nQYou don't know whether or not they had been condemned to death or only to long periods of imprisonment?\nARascher told me that they had been condemned to death.\nQYou certainly got a lot of information from Rascher.\nAYes, I always asked him about these things, and he told me that. Furthermore, Rascher was he who was the so-called boss in Dachau.\nQI just have one or two more questions. Do you remember being interrogated here in Nurnberg by representatives of the prosecution?\nAYes.\nQDo you recall saying in your interrogation that nine deaths had occurred on a certain day in March when you were away from Dachau, in Berlin?\nAYes, I was told that. During my first examination, after my arrest they told me that I had mentioned that. At that time I said that this was not possible until later on I found out that on that particular day I was in Berlin. It was quite a coincidence that I remembered this date exactly, and the fact was that I had to go to Berlin because of the birth of a child and for that reason I could remember the date exactly.\nQWhen did you write this report that was submitted here?\nAThis report was written in June.\nQ 1942.\nAYes, June '42.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1320, "page_number": "", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "QDid you take part in the conference in Nurnberg on October 26 and 27, 1942 with reference to aviation medicine?\nQDid you give a talk there?\nANo.\n1044 a", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1321, "page_number": "1045", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "QDo you know whether or not they had deaths in the freezing experiments at Dachau?\nAYes, I do now, of course.\nQDid you know it at the time?\nADuring that discussion, during that oral report that I heard at Nurnberg, it could be clearly understood.\nQThat they had had deaths at Dachau during the experiments?\nAYes, in any case it became clear to me; that is, I could understand from these remarks that Rascher made at the time at Nurnberg that these experiments had taken place in the concentration camp and on the other hand they spoke of measurements which were registered at the very end or after the death of the experimental subject so that it became very evident to me that deaths had occurred.\nQDid you tell anybody about it?\nAWell, I think I spoke to Dr. Ruff concerning this matter. I don't remember if I ever spoke to anybody else about it.\nMR. DENNEY:If Your Honors please, there are no further questions.\nEXAMINATION BY JUDGE PHILLIPS:\nQWitness, after the subjects had died as a result of the experiments in Dachau, did you and Rascher perform an autopsy upon one of the persons of any of these victims?\nAI was present during one of the autopsies. I did not carry out the autopsy myself.\nQDid you assist in it?\nANo, I just watched them.\nQWas that the first one or the second one or the third one that you saw done?\nAI can't tell you that with certainty.\nQ.Did you make a report on the autopsy?\nANo.\nQWhy didn't you put in your report of these experiments that you made on the 15th of June that you had seen three people die?", "speakers": [ "A", "Q.", "MR. DENNEY", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1322, "page_number": "1046", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "AThese were experiments which were absolutely outside the framework of our experiments; in other words, experiments which were not in the interest of the Luftwaffe and which I carried out personally. They were experiments which, as Rascher said, had been ordered by Himmler personally and which only concerned him and nobody else.\nQWould it be important to the Luftwaffe to know the extreme altitudes and pressure that these people could go through with before they died?\nANo, that was of no importance. Our task was absolutely clear. The problem was if from pressurized planes people could be saved from an altitude of twenty kilometers, and this task was a series of the experiments which we had carried out before on ourselves.\nQWhat was the nationality of the subjects?\nAAs far as I can remember they were all Germans.\nQAny Jews?\nAYes, among the experimental subjects there were also a few Jews.\nQGerman Jews?\nAWell, at least they all spoke German.\nQWhat were the nationalities of the ones that died from the experiments?\nAThey were also Germans.\nQJews?\nAI can't tell you that exactly, I believe that one of the two was Jewish.\nQWhat was the critical limit of these experiments? You spoke of that.\nDR. BERGOLD:May it please this Tribunal, this translation was really wrong.", "speakers": [ "A", "DR. BERGOLD", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1323, "page_number": "", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "The witness did not say, \"I think he was a Jew\", but he said he was possibly a Jew. That is a difference.\nQ (By Judge Phillips) You spoke of the critical limit of those experiments. What was the critical limit of these experiments?\nAOf what experiments are you talking? You mean these high altitude experiments?\n1046A", "speakers": [ "A" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1324, "page_number": "1047", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "QYes.\nAThey were twenty kilometers, twenty to twenty-one kilometers.\nQThat was the extreme limit?\nAYes.\nTHE PRESIDENT:We will take our recess, Dr. Bergold.\nTHE MARSHAL:The Tribunal will now be in recess for fifteen minutes.\n(Recess was taken.)", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "A", "THE PRESIDENT", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1325, "page_number": "1048", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "THE MARSHAL:Tribunal No. 2 is again in session.\nBY DR. BERGOLD:\nQWitness, I return to the experiments that lead to the death of the experimental subject. You stated to the Tribunal that those were experiments that did not take place for the Luftwaffe, or at any rate, did not fall within the framework of the Luftwaffe experiments, except for these three persons. Did Rascher otherwise carry out special experiments on a special commission from Himmler with their leading cadets, without these leading to death?\nAYes.\nQIs it true in regard to these special experiments that he said to you: \"That has nothing to do with you?\"\nAYes, but let me add that was specifically said to me. He turned me aside from these experiments.", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1326, "page_number": "1049", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "QYou also stated that you told Rascher your opinion of the other two fatalities. Was this after the return of the low pressure chamber to Adlershof, or before then?\nAThat I reported it to him, I know. But I do not know any longer whether I did so by phone at the time that I thought the chamber should be removed and then told him more explicitly after my return to Berlin, or whether in the meantime I was once in Berlin and told him face to face then.\nQYou said that Colonel Pendele had called you up and had informed you of the time that the film was to be shown.\nAYes.\nQDid you then meet Colonel Pendele personally later on the 11th of October?\nAYes, I did speak with him.\nMR DENNEY:If your Honor please, the translation came through, \"the 11th of October.\" I believe it should be the \"11th of September.\"\nTHE INTERPRETER:Correction; 11th of September.\nBY MR BERGOLD:\nQYou have stated that you made a memorandum about this; is that correct?\nAYes. I have to tell how this memo came about.After this film was shown, since things had been going along a little too rapidly here, and on so large a scale, Rascher was outraged and immediately called Sievers of the Ahnenerbe up and told him this, but Sievers was about to go on a trip and had no time, did not think the matter so important anyway. But he did ask to sec Rascher at the station, I think it was the Lehrter station from where he was about to leave. I spoke with Rascher and also with Sievers. Sievers didn't take the situation as seriously as Rascher portrayed it and said that Romberg should draw up some report as to how this had actually been, and that should be sent to me. Then I did so later, and that is the memo.", "speakers": [ "THE INTERPRETER", "A", "MR DENNEY", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1327, "page_number": "1050", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "randum that I gave Sievers for his orientation.\nQWitness, you spoke previously of new fatalities that Rascher had on his conscience -- nine deaths. Your answer did not make it entirely clear at what time you found out about these. Was that during the experiments or only later?\nANo, as I said, that was during the breakup of the work with the chamber.\nQThen the prisoners told you of these nine deaths?\nAThey told me that they were- glad that that chamber was out of the way finally, because all sorts of things had happened in connection with it. I asked what they meant and they told me, without however telling me the number precisely. I think they said something like five to ten casualties.\nQYou then spoke of the freezing conference in Nurenberg and said that to you it was apparent that casualties had occurred in these experiments. That expression \"to you\" does that mean that others less informed could not have recognized that at first sight?\nAThe situation was that Holzloehner spoke in his report of human beings who had been saved at sea and on whom measurements could be carried out. That seemed like an innocent matter externally, because it was generally known that in sea distress cases that there were many fatalities. No one paid too much attention to that, and only after Rascher rose after the report and spoke in a rather disconnected fashion of these experiments, that Himmler, namely, had approved them and that these were to be regarded as top military secret, or top secret, then it must have become clear to many that these were experiments on prisoners, or at least experiments authorized by Himmler. But to what extent the connection with the previous report was drawn, that I do not know. I can only speak of what I know personally.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1328, "page_number": "1051", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "QIn other words you mean that Holzloehner's report did not allow it to be clearly seen without further ado?\nANo, I do not believe it could be seen from his report.\nDR. BERGOLD:Thank you. Your Honors, I should just like to remind you that this report of Holzloehners was submitted to you by me as an exhibit and I pointed out to the Court at that time that a lay person could not deduce from that report, particularly from the words \"saved at sea\" that these were experiments with fatal consequences.\nNo further questions to the witness.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Any further questions, Mr. Denney?\nMR. DENNEY:No, Your Honor.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The marshal may remove this witness.\nDR. BERGOLD:I ask that I be permitted to call the witness Sievers.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The marshal will bring to the Tribunal the witness Wolfram Sievers.\nWOLFRAM SIEVERS:A witness, took the stand and testified as follows:\nJUDGE SPEIGHT:Witness, raise your right hand and repeat after me:\nI swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.\n(The witness repeated the oath.)\nJUDGE SPEIGHT:You may be seated.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The Court will advise this witness that he may refuse to answer any question if that answer would tend to incriminate or degrade him.\nDIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. BERGOLD:\nQWitness, speak slowly please, and furthermore I ask you to pause after every question of mine before beginning your answer, so that the interpreters will be able to translate my questions fast.", "speakers": [ "JUDGE SPEIGHT", "WOLFRAM SIEVERS", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "MR. DENNEY", "Q", "A" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1329, "page_number": "1052", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "Witness, please state your first and last name.\nAWolfram Sievers.\nQWhen were you born?\nA 10 July, 1905, in Hildesheim.\nQWhat was your last position and rank in Germany?\nAI was the Reich business manager of theAhnenerbe Forschungs and Lehrgemeinschaft and SS Standartenfuehrer of the General SS.\nQWitness, do you know Milch personally?\nAI only knew his name.\nQWitness, the Ahnenerbe Forschungs and Lehrgemeinschaft, was this ever subordinate to the Reich Air Ministry, or was it an institute that belonged only to the SS?\nANo, it had no connection with the ReichAir Ministry.\nDR. BERGOLD:Your Honors, I come now to the witness' affidavit, Exhibit 106,NOKW 264of 19 November 1936. It is in my document book 5b of the prosecution.\nMR. DENNEY:Page 131 of the English Document Book 5b, if your Honor please.\nBY DR. BERGOLD:\nQWitness, in this affidavit you stated the following: A Fuehrer decree forbade the use of German soldiers for high altitude experiments. When was this decree issued, and to whom?\nAI refer here to a communication from Himmler at Easter of 1932 which he made to me at his field headquarters. I myself am not familiar with that Fuehrer decree, but Himmler spoke to me of it.\nQWitness, you then stated in this affidavit, Milch must have been informed of Dr. Rascher's experiments. This is evident from the correspondence between Milch and Wolf. My first question now: When did you first hear of this correspondence between Milch and Wolf?", "speakers": [ "A", "DR. BERGOLD", "MR. DENNEY", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1330, "page_number": "1053", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "AAt the time it began, that is, 1942-1943.\nQWhen you now say that Milch must have known of Rascher's experiments, you come to this statement simply from knowing of the correspondence?", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1331, "page_number": "1054", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "When I make this explanation that is what I say, yes, and when I was asked about it on the witness stand I also stated that before the IMT trial that I from personal experience do not know to what extent Milch knew of these experiments because regarding the correspondence between Milch and Wolf we do not know of it at first hand, when, but I do know how Milch knew. When I found out this fact, the official who put this statement before me said it can be seen from this correspondence that Milch must have known of these experiments, and in the form of this statement it said that according to your best knowledge and conscience Milch did make this statement. Consequently, there can be no doubt about this, if you made that statement in this form, for this reason I have no hesitation either of signing this statement.\nQBut you can now say that from your own experience you had no knowledge of that?\nAExactly, as I said before, also when I said it on the stand.\nQWitness, I now submit two documents to you, Your Honor. It is Exhibit 109, Document No. 222, Brandt to Sievers, described as - or dated 29 October, by the prosecution as Document Book 5b of the prosecution.\nMR. DENNEY:Page 141 of the Document Book 5B.\nBY DR. BERGOLD:\nQFurthermore the document Exhibit No. 28, Document No. 221, letter from Sievers who is now here in court to Brandt on 25 August 1942, that is in Document Book No. 5A. Please read those two letters so I can ask questions regarding them.\nMR. DENNEY:That is Milch's exhibit.\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes, it is the only exhibit in his Document Book No. 1.\nMR. DENNEY:No. 28 in his Document Book No. 1, Your Honor.\nBY DR. BERGOLD:\nQPlease read first Brandt's letter to you and then your answer. Page 93 of Defense Document No. 1.\nAYes, I have read these letters.", "speakers": [ "A", "DR. BERGOLD", "MR. DENNEY", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1332, "page_number": "1055", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "QWitness, do you consider that the date, 29 October, is correct, of Brandt's letter to you, or rather, is the letter that you read in answer to Brandt's letter. Is that not what it is?\nAThe letter of mine of 26August to Brandt precedes letters to me, because in Brandt's letter to me he refers up at the top, \"To your letter of 26 August 1942\", meaning my letter.\nQCould this really be the letter of 29 October, this letter of Brandt or did it really come immediately after yours? You must have received this letter?\nAYes, I did. I can no longer say that for sure what the date was, but down at the bottom to the right there is a stamp \"31 August 1942\".\nQIs that stamped when the letter was received?\nAIt is possible. I can only say so, however, when I see the photostatic copy.\nQUnfortunately I do not have that available. May I please have those documents back?\nAYes.\nQWitness, I now show you Exhibit No. 130 of the prosecution. It was a memorandum of 8 November 1942. Please read this note.\nMR. DENNEY:It is not in any book, if Your Honor please. That is one of the loose ones.\nBY DR. BERGOLD:\nQWitness, in this memorandum you make a mark regarding Hippke's letter of 10 October 1942. Is it still your opinion today that this letter of Hippke, dated 10 October 1942, was a refusal, although couched in rather flowery terms? Would you care to see that letter?\nAThat is not necessary because I have the following to say about this. The question of taking Rascher from the SS to the Luftwaffe played an important role from the very beginning and Rascher pursued that goal as stubbornly as Himmler did himself. This file note was taken up by myself immediately in connection with the address in the Academy for Luftwaffe Research on 6 February 1942.", "speakers": [ "A", "MR. DENNEY", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1333, "page_number": "", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "Rascher was present at that address. I was not present, nor was I at the freezing congress in Nuernberg, which is briefly mentioned previously, in this file note. After this meeting in the Academy Rascher told me these things. I drew up a summary about what he had told me in the form of 1055a this file note and at the same time I put down what Rascher told me about Hippke's letter on 10 October 1942.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1334, "page_number": "1056", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "Consequently, this note is not a statement of anything that I know of of my own experience as I was not present but what I heard, so consequently I cannot really state what Hippke said in that letter.\nQ.So that was simply Rascher's opinion?\nA.Yes, it was simply Rascher's opinion and I myself cannot say anything about it because in the course of a whole year tense relations had developed between the office of the Luftwaffe and Rascher and Himmler's opinions.\nDR. BERGOLD:That concludes my questions regarding this affidavit of the witness, Your Honor. I make him now available to the prosecution.\nCROSS EXAMINATION BY HR.\nDENNEY:\nQ.When did you join the Party?\nA.At the end of 1929.\nQ.When did you join the SS?\nA.In the end of 1935.\nQ.And at the end of the war you were a Standartenfuehrer?\nA.Yes.\nQ.That is like a colonel, or an Oberst in the army?\nA.So far as a Standartenfuehrer, I was a member of the Luftwaffe. However, I was only a member of the General SS.\nQ.You were in the Allgemeine SS, is that right?\nA.Yes, sir.\nQ.Did you know Himmler very well?\nA.I had known him since 1935 because he was president of the Ahnenerbe, of which I was the Reich Business Manager.\nQ.Did you see him often?\nA.One can't say that. I used to sec him when I was ordered to report to him on official matters.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1335, "page_number": "", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "Q.You say you never knew Milch?\nA.No, I only know his name and that he was Staatssekretair in the Air Ministry.\n1056-a", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1336, "page_number": "1057", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "Q.Do you know what else he did?\nA.No. I do not.\nQ.You knew he was a Fieldmarshal?\nA.Yes. I knew that.\nQ.Do you know what the relationship between Himmler and Milch was?\nA.No. I cannot say.\nQ.You were aware of this controversy between the SS and the Luftwaffe about Rascher?\nA.I have already said that there was tension because of the personnel question regarding his transfer. That is the transfer that was brought up in 1943.\nQ.He was in the Luftwaffe, and the SS wanted to get him. By \"get\" him I do not moan they wanted to do anything to him. I mean they wanted him to transfer into the SS.\nA.He was to be taken over into the Waffen-SS.\nQ.He was finally transferred to the Waffen-SS when?\nA.That was the end of 1943.\nQ.The end of 1943?\nA.Yes. It was the end of 1943 that he was really taken over into the Waffen-SS.\nQ.Do you remember the date?\nA.No.\nQ.How do you remember that it was at the end of 1943?\nA.Because at the beginning of 1944, Rascher was taken prisoner, and at that time, his transfer had not been long enforced because negotiations were still being carried on with the personnel main office regarding his transfer which had boon ordered but was still at the state of being carried out and because of his rank assimilation discussions regarding his rank were carried on with the Chief of the main-office von Berg. For this reason, I recall the transfer really took place only at the end of 1943.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1337, "page_number": "", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "A.Dr. Hippke said he was transferred in March of 1943. He was wrong, is that right?\n1057-a", "speakers": [ "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1338, "page_number": "1058", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "A.I said before that the negotiations regarding the transfer of Rascher had been going on since 1942 and that it had led to several direct correspondence between Himmler and Wolff and the Air Ministry.\nQ.Why did the SS want him?\nA.Such transfers from one branch of the Wehrmacht to another frequently took place.\nQ.Did he go into the Waffen-SS or the Allgemeine-SS?\nA.The Waffen-SS.\nQ.You considered them part of the armed forces?\nA.The Waffen-SS was considered a part of the armed forces; the Wehrmacht, yes.\nQ.About this affidavit that you wrote, about which Dr. Bergold questioned you, did anybody make you sign it?\nA.No. I was not forced.\nQ.Nobody held a gun against your head or anything?\nA.No. By no means, nor did I say anybody had.\nTHE PRESIDENT:This witness has not repudiated the affidavit, has he?\nMR. DENNY:I do not think he has.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Neither do I. Do you see any use spending time on it?\nMR. DENNY:I do not think so.\nTHE PRESIDENT:He affirms what ho said now.\nMR. DENNY:I just wanted to make sure. I have no more questions.\nDR. BERGOLD:I have no more questions either to put to the witness.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The Marshal may remove this witness.\n(Witness excused)\nDR. BERGOLD:I wish to call the Witness Oskar Schroeder.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The Marshall will bring into the courtroom, the Witness Oskar Schroeder.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "MR. DENNY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1339, "page_number": "1059", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "OSKARSCHROEDER, a Witness, took the stand and testified as follows:\nBY JUDGE MUSMANNO:\nQ.Raise your right hand, Witness, and repeat after me I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.\n(The Witness repeated the oath)\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:You may be seated.\nDIRECT EXAMINATION\nBY DR. BERGOLD:\nQ.Witness, I ask you to speak slowly. I ask you, further, to pause after every question of mine. The reason for this is that we want the interpreter to interpret my question to its conclusion before you start with the answer.\nWitness, please state your first and last name.\nA.Oskar Schroeder.\nQ.When were you born?\nA.On the 6th of February, 1899.\nQ.What position and rank did you have in the German Wehrmacht at the conclusion?\nA.I was in the end Chief of the Medical Inspection and a General Staff Physician.\nQ.Witness, do you know Milch?\nA.Yes.\nQ.Personally?\nA.Yes.\nQ.Please point to him.\nA. (Indicating)\nDR. BERGOLD:I ask that the record show that the witness identified the Defendant.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The record will so show.\nQ.Witness, until September, or rather January, 1944, you were subordinate to General Hippke?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "BY JUDGE MUSMANNO", "A.", "BY DR. BERGOLD", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "OSKAR", "JUDGE MUSMANNO" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1340, "page_number": "", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "A.Until 31 December 1943.\nQ.After that date, were you Chief of the Medical Section of the Luftwaffe?\nA.Yes.\nQ.To whom were you subordinated in your capacity Chief of the Medical Section of the Luftwaffe?\n1059 -a", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1341, "page_number": "1060", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "A.At the time that I took over that office, there was a change in the order of subordination. For one or two months, I cannot say precisely, the old relationships exist ed. That is to say, I was subordinate to Foerster direct. Then, however, the change took place that I mentioned and I was subordinated to the Chief of the General Staff. So, in general, during my turn of office I was immediately subordinated to the Chief of the General Staff.\nQ.General Foerster, was, at that time, subordinated to Milch?\nA.Yes.\nQ.When you were subordinated to the Chief of the General Staff, wore you not indirectly subordinated to Milch?\nA.No.\nQ.Is it true that the Chief of the General Staff was immediately subordinated to Goering?\nA.Yes.\nQ.Witness, at the time when you were still subordinated to General Foerster, did you, at that time, also report to Milch about any experiments that were under way?\nA.No.\nQ.No?\nA.No. the time was so short, I did not even have opportunity during this first period to report even to Fieldmarshall Milch. I did not see him at all during that time.\nQ.In the time from February 1, 1940 until December 31, 1943, what position did you have?\nA.I was the physician for the Luftfleet 2.\nQ.In this position, did you have anything to do with Hippke?\nA.Yes. He was my superior in Medical Inspection, while I was physician.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1342, "page_number": "1061", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "Q.Where did you have your office as Air Fleet Physician?\nA.This Fleet was lead by Kesselring in the first year, that is from the beginning of the French campaign to the beginning of the Russian Campaign we were in the West. Then for a few months we were in the East. And from December, 1941, until I resigned from that Fleet, we were in the Mediterranian Area, Italy, Sicily and Africa.\nQ.In other words, in the first period, during which the Dachau high-altitude experiments were being carried out, in 1942, and the freezing experiments from June until October, 1942, you were not really present in Berlin?\nA.No. In 1942 we were in Sicily, Africa respectively.\nQ.Did you hear anything about these experiments at all during this time?\nA.No.\nQ.Witness, I come now to your affidavit, which you submitted.\nYour Honors, this affidavit, according to my notes, was not offered. I have no note of it. If the Tribunal does not have it, then I ask your pardon. And I am all through with this witness. It was in my document book; since it was, I assumed it was in yours. I ask your pardon. I could not know that the court did not have it. I have no English copy of it. Unfortunately I can dispense with the witness.\nTHE PRESIDENT:You mean the witness has nothing to explain now?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1343, "page_number": "1062", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "PRESIDENT:You mean the witness has nothing to explain now?\nDR. BERGOLD:I wanted to cross-examine him on this affidavit, tut if it has not been submitted in evidence, I need not to do so. I again ask the Court's pardon for having caused this trouble.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The marshal will remove this witness.\nDR. BERGOLD:I ask permission to call the witness, Becker-Freyseng.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The Marshal will bring the witness. Hermann Becker-Freyseng to the court room.\nHERMANNBECKER-FREYSENG: a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:\nBY JUDGE PHILLIPS:\nQYou will raise your right hand. Repeat after me:\nI swear by God, the almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.\n(The witness repeated the oath.)\nJUDGE PHILLIPS:You will have a seat.\nDIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. BERGOLD:\nQWitness, I ask you to speak slowly, I ask you further to pause after every question I ask before you answer so that the translation of my question can be concluded.\nWitness, please state your first and last names.\nAHermann Becker-Freyseng.\nQWhen were you born?\nA On the 18th of July 1910.\nQWhat was your last position in the German Army?\nAIn the end I was the Expert for Luftwaffe Medicine with the Chief of the Medical Inspectorate of the Luft waffe.", "speakers": [ "HERMANN", "JUDGE PHILLIPS", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "PRESIDENT", "Q", "A" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1344, "page_number": "", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "QDo you know Milch personally?\nANo, but I know now who he is; but then I did not know him.\nQWitness, I come now to your affidavit that you submitted. Your Honors it is the affidavit, Exhibit 121, Document No. 448 of the 24th of October 1946.\n1062 a MR. DENNEY: That is page 185, Document Book 5, please.BY DR. BERGOLD:", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1345, "page_number": "1063", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "QWitness, you state here: \"Dr. Kalk told me that he had seen Rascher in Milch's office at the RLM, and we were both very surprised at this.\" Would you please tell me exactly what statement Kalk made? \"Dr. Kalk told me that he had seen Rascher in Milch's office at the RLM, and we were both very surprised at this.\"\nAI have no precise recollection of this telephone conversation any longer because first of all it was almost five years ago; secondly, it was an event that I attached no importance to at that time. For that reason, I do not remember it - remember the precise wording. I do know that in connection with a planned or actual address of Rascher's in the RLM, I was called by phone and that is I was called as a representative of the expert that time, Dr. Anthony; and was asked whether regarding this - whether this address and the events connected with it were known to me. I was told that a Dr. Rascher was at the RLM, or that he had been there, who was to make an address or had made one, I do not know precisely whether this was before or after the address, and I denied there upon that I had known anything of this event.\nQ.Was it Kalk who called you up?\nAI think I can definitely remember that is was Kalk, but there is the possibility that it was Mr. Ruehl who called up on behalf of Kalk, anyhow, I associate the name Kalk with this telephone conversation now in my recollection.\nQDid the person speak only of the fact that Rascher was in the RLM or did he also say that he was in Milch's office?", "speakers": [ "A", "Q.", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1346, "page_number": "", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "AI can say the following to that: when this affidavit was submitted to me to sign, I pointed out that I could not state under oath that Rascher had been in Milch's office. It was then pointed out to me that the English expression \"Milch's office\" does not mean that it was the question of Milch's personal office, that is to say, as we would interpret it inside the office of Milch; but that the word \"office\" simply meant the whole office building in general, and that that was what was meant in this case - that the RIM was the office in which the Field Marshal Milch was active at that time. On this basis, I then had no misgivings about signing the 1063 a affidavit.", "speakers": [ "A" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1347, "page_number": "", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "QBut in the affidavit, the words are \"In Milch's office in the RLM\", and as you are stating now you only know that he was somewhere in the RLM.\nAThat is right. I still don't know what room Rascher visited or went to.\nQYour Honor, that is all I have to ask the witness because I have now clarified that affidavit to my satisfaction CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. DENNEY:\nQWitness, you have told Dr. Bergold that the words \"In Milch's office at tho RLM\" were explained to you as meaning some place in the building.\nANot somewhere in the building, but generally it just meant the office; not somewhere in the building, but just in general the division, the Amt.\nQSomewhere in the division; well, is a division bigger than a building or is a building bigger than a division?\nAI think these are two concepts that have nothing to do with each other. A division can take up several buildings or on the other hand many divisions can be in one building.\nQWell, what was the case?\nAI didn't mean when I said \"Milch's office\" his actual room, but I simply meant that this event had taken place in connection with the official business of Milch at that time. I had no idea where Rascher went to or in what rooms Milch stayed at that time.\nQThe office building in which Milch's office was in, you know where that was?\nA.That 1064", "speakers": [ "A", "A.", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1348, "page_number": "", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "AThat was the ReichAir Ministry, yes.\nQHow many divisions were there in the Reich Air Ministry?\nAHow many divisions?\nQWell, you used the term \"divisions\"; I didn't. I don't know what it means.\nAYes, I do know. I know the Technical Office, the Personnel Office, the administrative Office. I can't remember any more at the moment.\n1064 a", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1349, "page_number": "1065", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "QWell, anyway, there were several divisions in the building, in the Reichs Air Ministry in Berlin, right?\nAThe situation was this: a great many of these divisions had offices outside the actual office building of the Reichs Air Ministry.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Shouldn't this inquiry be directed to Kalk or at least to what he said?\nMR. DENNEY:Well, if Your Honor please, I am getting to that.\nBY MR. DENNEY:\nQNow, what did Kalk tell you?", "speakers": [ "A", "MR. DENNEY", "THE PRESIDENT", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1350, "page_number": "1066", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "A.I stated before that neither can I recall the precise wording that he spoke nor precisely what he said -- the meaning. I still remember the following: Xalk called up the division for Luftwaffe Medicine and told them that either a Stabsarzt Rascher was going to, or had, delivered a speech about some Luftwaffe medical field and asked me whether he knew anything about this speech or anything about it. I denied knowing anything and that was all there was to it.\nQ.And then you put in your affidavit \"we were both very surprised at this\". What were you surprised at, the fact that Rascher, an officer in the Luftwaffe was seen in the building occupied by the Air Ministry?\nA.No, that wasn't surprising, but it was surprising that a Luftwaffe medical speech should be delivered of which an expert for such things didn't know anything at all.\nQAnd who was the expert on these matters?\nA.That was in the first line the person dealing with that subject at that time, Stabsarzt Professor Anthony and in the second line it was I; I was at that time his assistant expert.\nQ.Were you Anthony's assistant?\nA.Yes I was his assistant in that department. The expression assistant was not used at that time.\nQ.What did you know about these experiments at Dachau?\nA.Of the high altitude experiments I knew nothing.\nQ.How about the freezing experiments?\nA.Of those experiments I heard generally about this for the first time in June 1942 in the presence of the Medical Inspector at that time. I had no more to do with it. At the conference in Nurnberg I read about it again.\nQ.But you didn't know anything about the low pressure experiments at Dachau that were conducted by Ruff and Romberg?\nA.Of those experiments I heard about after they had been brought to complete conclusion, namely, in connection with the speech that Rascher delivered.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1351, "page_number": "1067", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "Q.I have no further questions.\nRE-DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. BERGOLD:\nQ.Witness, to clear this once and for all; did you have any reason or basis to assume that Rascher know Milch personally?\nA.I do not assume so, nor have I ever stated that.\nQ.Witness, is it correct that Kalk was the medical advisor of Milch. Do you know that, or don't you?\nA.I didn't know that he was medical adviser. I only knew that it was, so to say, generally known that he was the main physician. In how far this went as to adviser, I do not know.\nQ.Did you get from this conversation with Kalk the impression that he did not know either how this speech had come about?\nA.I did get that impression for if Kalk had known about this there was no necessity for him to ring me up.\nQ.Thank you. I have no further questions.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The Marshal may lead the witness away.\nDR. BERGOLD:May I ask to be permitted to call the witness Weltz. I don't know whether he is available yet. We have proceeded so rapidly and because Brandt was left out my chronological plan has been upset, since practically Schroeder was also left out.\nTHE PRESIDENT:What is the name of the witness?\nDR. BERGOLD:George August Weltz.\nGEORGE AUGUSTWELTZ, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:\nTHE PRESIDENT:Will the witness raise his right hand and repeat after me:\nI swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.\n(The witness repeated the oath.)\nTHE PRESIDENT:You may be seated.\nDIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. BERGOLD:", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "GEORGE AUGUST" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1352, "page_number": "1068", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "Q.Witness, I ask you to speak slowly. I ask you furthermore to pause after each question of mine before you answer so that the translation of the given question can be concluded.\nPlease tell me what is your first and last name?\nA.George August Weltz.\nQ.When were you born?\nA. 16 March 1898.\nQ.What was your last position in Germany?\nA.During the war I was leader of the Institute for Luftwaffe Medicine in Munich.\nQ.Do you know Milch personally?\nA.Only after the war I saw him briefly.\nQ.In April 1945 you didn't know him.\nA.No, I never saw him prior to April 1945.\nQ.Witness, however, you do know Professor Dr. Hippke.\nA.Yes.\nQ.You talked with him once about the conditions under which the so-called foreign experiments should apply?\nA.Yes.\nQ.What conditions were laid down at that time at the conclusion of the discussion?\nA.It was our pre-assumption that the experiments should take place, first on volunteers; secondly, that these volunteers should have been criminals orderly sentenced by German courts; and the third condition was that the experimental subjects or theme must be particularly important and a problem that could not be solved by animal experiments.\nQ.Were the conditions also made that such experiments were to be carried out with every precaution?\nA.That was a matter of course.\nQ.Was there also a condition that, in so far as possible, it should avoid pain?\nA.That of course was understood.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1353, "page_number": "1069", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "Q.Then, did you supervise these high altitude experiments in Dachau or who did that?\nA.Do you want to know that in detail or just briefly?\nQ.Just briefly.\nA.Briefly then, I withdrew before the experiments began in Dachau and along with Ruff who had tried out the experiments I wanted to take over supervision of Dachau. But this was made impossible for me through a telegram of Himmler's. Therefore, before the experiments began I withdrew, and can there state nothing regarding the actual experiments at Dachau.\nQ.Before you withdrew did you have any suspicion against Rascher which you communicated to Hippke?\nA.At that time I had no reason at all to consider Rascher a criminal.\nQ.Then during the course of the experiments did you hear of death cases?\nA.No.\nQ.Nor did you send any report on same to Hippke?\nA.No.\nQ.Did you ever inquire about these experiments?\nA.From the above mentioned telegram from Himmler it was evident that the experiments in Dachau were to be kept secret. For that reason from the time on I withdrew, I did not ask about the experiments because I know people carrying out the experiments wore sworn to secrecy.\nQ.Witness, I come now to your interrogation. Your Honors, it is exhibit 122, documentNOKW - 419. In this interrogation, witness, you say that you became suspicious of Rascher. Of what sort was the suspicion - you just said you did not consider him a criminal?\nA.Could I ask, please, what suspicion is there - at what time?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1354, "page_number": "1070", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "Q.The question is here of the telegram which you considered a forgery. According to that you say in this interrogation.\nA.As regards the forgery of the telegram, it turned out later that my suspicion was wrong. From the correspondence shown to me now is to be soon that this telegram was a real one. The suspicion does refer to something different. I had heard that Rascher put his father in a concentration camp and that led to a personal tension between Rascher and myself and I took lot's say strict official forms against Rascher for that reason -- but that had nothing to do with that I had a suspicion Rascher was a criminal. From my point of view at that time he appeared to me as an unsympathetic matter, not a nice characteristic -- nothing you could consider criminal.\nQ.Apparently this matter of putting his father in a concentration camp -- that was based on the fact that his father was opposed to National Socialism?\nA. I found out nothing about that.\nQ.You regarded Rascher as an exaggerated Nazi?\nA.Yes.\nQ. 125% Nazi.\nA.Yes.\nQ.But you had no suspicion of crime?\nA.At that time, so far as I know, Rascher had nothing on his score yet.\nQ.Your Honors, I wanted to clarify that question. I have no further questions to put to the witness.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1355, "page_number": "1071", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "THE PRESIDENT:Does the Prosecution wish to cross examine?\nCROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. DENNEY:\nQ.Witness, were you a member of the National Socialist Party?\nA.I became a member in 1937.\nQ.When did you discover that Rascher had put his father in a concentration camp?\nA.I was told this approximately in February 1942.\nQ. '32?\nA. '42. 1942.\nQ.Was this before the experiments at Dachau were started?\nA.Simultaneously with the beginning of those experiments at Dachau. My agreements with Ruff were before that time.\nQ.And the experiments started in Dachau when in '42?\nA.At the beginning of March 1942, as far as I know.\nQ.Were you ever out there during the experiments?\nA.Yes. Once with Ruff, Romberg and Rascher, I went to visit the camp to find out what the general state of affairs was at the camp and particularly to ascertain whether political and criminal prisoners were segregated clearly.\nQ.And, given the conditions that you spoke to Dr. Hippke about, you said that they must be people who had been condemned by German courts. What did you mean by that?\nA.We said in our conversation that under no circumstances did we want to have political prisoners to get experimented upon.\nQ.Well, what must they have been condemned to by a German court, excluding the political prisoners?\nA.May I say, this conversation with Hippke was conditioned by what Rascher had told us previously. Rascher had previously told us that habitual criminals who had been condemned to death were to be used. And under this condition, Kottenhof asked Hippke what his opinion on his matter was.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1356, "page_number": "", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "The above mentioned, conversation was not an official conversation but simply a discussion on one evening to which Hippke had invited us, and at the end of the conversation -I didn't take part in it -- I said that these concepts were defined according to international usage, and in the 1071 a course of this conversation these conditions were developed.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1357, "page_number": "1072", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "This was not official but more a theoretical discussion of the conditions under which these experiments would be permissible. As I have already mentioned, this conversation was inspired by Rascher's statement that the experiments should take place in Dachau on people who had been orderly sentenced to death by a German court. Thus, they could take place only on most serious criminals.\nQ.As far as you know, all the experiments that were carried out were on people who had been condemned to death by German courts and who were not political prisoners?\nA.I have found out now because of the evidence submitted in Court that Rascher apparently used other persons for those experiments, as well but the conditions that I laid down with Ruff were the same that Rascher had told us, namely, that these were to be people condemned orderly to death in German courts.\nQ.And did you ever do anything to find out whether or not the conditions which had been established were, in fact, being carried out?\nA.I wont to Dachau with Ruff and Romberg in order to talk this over with the camp commander, and we did agree on this specifically with the camp commander. The camp commander heard what we had to say and thought over the question of who should be used for these experiments and told us that he would take care of this matter; that they should got special food, they should be separated from the rest, and these conditions we discussed specifically and explicitly with the camp commander.\nMR. DENNY:No further questions.\nRE-DIRECT EXAMINATION\nBY DR. BERGOLD:\nQ.Witness, I have one more question. You said that you were familiar with the right to use such persons who were sentenced to death from international literature.", "speakers": [ "BY DR. BERGOLD", "Q.", "A.", "MR. DENNY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1358, "page_number": "", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "A.Yes.\nQ.Is that stated generally in scientific books?\nA.At that time I was under the influence of a book that is very widely known, namely De Kruif's \"Hunger Fighters\". It was published in America, 1072 - a translated into German, and in it is described in detail how Goldberger, an official in Washington in the Department of Health, carried out experiments on twelve prisoners in Kansas under very specific conditions, and since Dr. De Kruif had published this in a book which was thought of as propaganda, it was clear that ho was not thinking of any crime or wished to describe a crime but that he was thinking of it as something which was entirely, permissible and the conditions under which those experiments were carried out in Kansas wore completely in agreement with many other investigations which are known to me from international literature.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1359, "page_number": "1073", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "I believe , therefore, that one can speak of an international standard which makes such experiments permissible, and only shortly previous to that I remembered this bock of Do Kruif's.\nMR. DENNEY:If Your Honor please, I don't know what purpose we are serving by going in and comparing what happened in Dachau and what happened in a book he read of what happened in the United States. I think the Court is aware of the testimony of the first witness that there is certainly no comparison between the experiments, and this apparently is the beginning of a long parade of witnesses who arc going to testify that experiments are conducted on human beings in other places. We do not deny that, but we certainly do deny that they were conducted the way these were conducted.\nTHE PRESIDENT:I can not anticipate what the next witness will testify to. At the moment, this witness is merely stating that this is the reason that he set up certain standards in his talk with Hippke. To that limited extent, it seems to be proper.\nDR. BERGOLD:No further questions/", "speakers": [ "THE PRESIDENT", "DR. BERGOLD", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1360, "page_number": "", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "THE PRESIDENT:The Marshal may remove this witness.\n(Witness excused.)\nTHE PRESIDENT:What is your program now, Dr. Bergold? Have you other witnesses who have been called for today?\nDR. BERGOLD:I had intended certain things for Monday, but there is still the witness Ruff, and I had asked for Dr. Alexander of the American Division as a witness for Monday. That was my Monday program, but perhaps we can do it today. If however, Dr. Alexander is not accessible, I could read the rest of my 1073 a documents before hearing Dr. Ruff.", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1361, "page_number": "1074", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "MR. DENNEY:If your Honor please, I have some testimony of a witness that was given before Military Tribunal I which I can read in at some tine. It is only about 10 or 12 pages. I am just trying to give your Honors an idea of what the work at hand is, if it will help Dr. Bergold out. It will probably take half an hour or so.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Is Dr. Ruff to be called?\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Is he here?\nDR. BERGOLD:Not at the moment. It is one o'clock already.\nMR. DENNEY:The Marshal says Dr. Ruff is outside.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Well, all right, then we will start at 2:30 with the witness Ruff.\nTHE MARSHAL:The Tribunal is recessed until 1430 hours.\n(A recess was taken until 1430 hours)", "speakers": [ "THE PRESIDENT", "THE MARSHAL", "DR. BERGOLD", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1362, "page_number": "1075", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "AFTERNOON SESSION\nTHE MARSHALL:All persons in the Court, please secure your seats. Tribunal Number II is again in session.\nDR. BERGOLD:May it please this Tribunal, I would like to ask for permission to bring Dr. Alexander, instead of Ruff. Dr. Alexander asked me to do so because he has a very important conference later on. I hope it doesn't matter in what sequence we bring them in.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Whichover witness you like. Whom do you want?\nDR. BERGOLD:I would appreciate it if Dr. Alexander could come in.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Call Dr. Alexander.\nDR. LEOALEXANDER, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows BY JUDGE PHILLIPS:\nQWill you repeat this oath after me:\nI swear by God, that the evidence which I shall give in this court will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help me God.\n(The witness reported the oath.)\nJUDGE PHILLIPS:Be seated.\nDIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. BERGOLD:\nQWitness, I would appreciate it not to speak too fast and furthermore I'd appreciate it if you could make a short pause between my questions and your answers, because of the translators.\nAYes, sir.\nQWitness, would you tell the Tribunal your name -- your first name and last name?\nALeoAlexander. No middle initial. Born October 11, 1905.\nQDoctor, what is your profession?\nADoctor of Medicine; specialist in neurology and psychiatry.\nQThank you. Doctor, as far as I know, you are in charge of the experiments under indictment in case 1?\nAYes; I have been.", "speakers": [ "JUDGE PHILLIPS", "THE MARSHALL", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "Q", "DR. LEO", "A" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1363, "page_number": "1076", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "QDoctor, I shall now come to the first experiments, namely, high altitude experiments in Dachau. Today we had a witness hero, Romberg, who testified to the effect that, within the framework of the German Research Institute for Aviation, there were no death cases, but that the death cases occurred within the framework of other experiments carried out by Dr. Rascher. Could you affirm the fact, if between those two experiments, which are in the report of the 28th of July 1942, and those other experiments which were carried out by Dr. Rascher?\nMR. DENNEY:If your Honor please, I don't understand what he's talking about -- asking this witness to confirm the fact that Romberg said this morning that nobody died in any Luftwaffe experiments conducted at Dachau. Certainly the witness wasn't at Dachau then.\nDR. BERGOLD:No. There must be some sort of misunderstanding, Mr. Denney. I asked him, as an expert, if during the series of experiments which are in the report of the German Research Institute, and all other experiments which became known to him, of Rascher, if there is a difference between the two experiments? I thought that this was an expert question.\nDR. DENNEY:I still don't understand it.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Well, the important thing is this: Does the witness understand it? Do you, Dr. Alexander?\nTHE WITNESS:Frankly speaking, not quite. I don't write know what is being driven at.\nDY DR. BERGOLD:\nQWitness, is the report of the 23th of July 1942 of the DVL known to you?\nAYes\nQIs there a difference between these experiments as defined in this report and the special experiments which Rascher carried out upon Himmler's orders in Dachau?\nAWell, there's that difference -- that fatal experiments are not mentioned in the report.", "speakers": [ "THE WITNESS", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "DR. DENNEY", "MR. DENNEY", "Q", "A" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1364, "page_number": "1077", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "QNo. I'm sure that those are certain experiments in favor of the Luftwaffe, which are laid down in this report; is that correct or not?\nAYes.\nMR. DENNEY:If Your Honor please, I think the report speaks for itself. If he wants him to say anything about the report, let him take it, look at it and ask him his questions, but Dr. Bergold is now trying to read into the record the fact that this report doesn't mention any deaths.\nDR. BERGOLD:Not quite.\nMR. DENNEY:And therefore he says that this is the only thing that had anything to do with the Luftwaffe, and all the other experiments that were carried on down there, when somebody else was concerned, and died, he says these are all Himmler's. Now that's obviously his contention, but it doesn't help the Tribunal any.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Well, Dr. Bergold is assuming that Dr. Alexander is familiar with this report.\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes.\nTHE PRESIDENT:And then he asks him a question which, I dare say, the Tribunal could answer just as well. What does the report say?\nDR. BERGOLD:No, not quite. This morning we spoke of two different series of experiments. Romberg seated that the first experimental series was the one for the Luftwaffe, for the benefit of the Luftwaffe, as it is described in this report. Furthermore, Rascher, carried out a second serial of experiments upon Himmler's orders, with its own goals.\nTHE PRESIDENT:We understand that. Now what is your question of this witness?\nDR. BERGOLD:Well, now I wanted to know from this export if he could tell us what difference exists between the two different experimental series.", "speakers": [ "THE PRESIDENT", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "MR. DENNEY", "Q", "A" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1365, "page_number": "1078", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "BY THE PRESIDENT:Oh, you are assuming that he knows the details of both experiments?\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes, your honor.\nBY THE PRESIDENT:And, regardless of Romberg's testimony, you want him to distinguish between the two?\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes, your Honor. I take it, that he knows, because Dr. Alexander was in charge of the examination of these experiments. That is how I understood it, anyway. I was informed thus.\nMR. DENNY:You can ask him anything, I submit, your Honor, about the report that he wishes, but I have never seen any other report like this, based on these other experiments he is talking about, which was certainly not going to accept as SS experiments; but, if he wants to say that I have this group and this group, because Romberg said so, and will you tell me how this group of which he has the report, differs from the experiments that Romberg said, were conducted for the SS and Himmler. I don't see hour this witness is competent to testify about that.\nDR. BERGOLD:On the basis of the examination that he made, I assume.\nBY THE PRESIDENT:Examination of what?\nDR. BERGOLD:Your honor, Dr. Alexander, as export, examined all the experiments which were carried out at Dachau. I don't know that is correct. Maybe, I have not been informed correctly.\nBY THE WITNESS:That is correct. As a matter of fact, I was the first medical officer who saw the report on the altitude experiments. The report is an exhibit, I presume; and I saw it in Himmler's collection of books.\nBY THE PRESIDENT:Well, it isn't here.\nBY THE WITNESS:Yes, that is the report.\nBY THE PRESIDENT:That is the document which Dr. Bergold now has?\nBY THE WITNESS:The document, which I assume, if Dr. Bergald will show it to me, I can recognize.\n(The witness is shown the document)\nBY THEWITNESS: (perusing the document) This is a photpstat of the report which I found in Himmler's files, which were captured (pause) -shortly after their capture in late (pause) -- that was in early June of 1945.", "speakers": [ "BY THE", "BY THE WITNESS", "DR. BERGOLD", "MR. DENNY", "BY THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1366, "page_number": "1079", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "This is the report, as I recognize the signature, and the general arrangement of the papers. And this report is included in the photostat of the CIX report which I wrote.\nBY THE PRESIDENT:Well, does this report cover the experiments alleged to have been conducted by Rascher?\nBY THE WITNESS:This report is signed -- (pause) -- may I have it again, please?\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes. (Hands document to the witness)\nBY THEWITNESS: (perusing document) This report is signed by Ruff (pause) and Romberg (pause) and it says (examining) in Rascher's name: \"Unterzeichnet im original\". Which means in the original signed by Rascher.\nBY THE PRESIDENT:Now, all the material which the witness has been asked to pass upon is in this exhibit?\nDR. BERGOLD:No, your Honor, it isn't.\nBY THE PRESIDENT:At any rate, that's the document which the witness holds in his hand?\nMR. DENNY:That's what I want to be sure about, because Dr. Bergold keeps asking him about his theory of the Himmler experiments, where death occurred.\nBY THE PRESIDENT:All right, this report will be admitted.\nQIn the report which you have in your hand, doctor, are there two kinds of experiments indicated?\nBY THE WITNESS:In this report, there are several kinds of experiments. There are experiments which are called \"sinking\" experiments.\nBY TIEPRESIDENT: -- No, no; you misunderstand me. I do not mean scientific experiments, but two different experiments under two separate, series, divisions or heads? Is there anything in that report, which so indicates?\nAI would have to refresh my memory. (Examines document) I do not think this (pause) -- the report is addressed, as you see, on the left hand corner, to the Reichsfuehrer SS and to the -BY THE PRESIDENT:", "speakers": [ "BY TIE", "BY THE", "BY THE WITNESS", "DR. BERGOLD", "MR. DENNY", "Q", "BY THE PRESIDENT", "A" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1367, "page_number": "1080", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "--- let me put the question this way:\nQ.Is there anything in the report which indicates that one series of experiments was conducted by Romberg and Rascher for the SS and. for the Luftwaffe and another series conducted by Himmler for the SS?\nA.In this report there is nothing to indicate that the Luftwaffe itself had any part. This report in written on the letter head of the \"Deutsche Versuchsanstalt fur Luftfahrt\", the German experimental institute for Aviation, \"EV\", I think it stands for \"registered concern\", which really is not governmental but private. It is addressed to the Reichsfuehrer SS, to the Realm leader SS, which is Heinrich Himmler. There is nothing in this report to indicate that the Luftwaffe, officially, had any part in it, except for the fact (pause) --- which we know from other sources, namely; that Romberg and Rascher were Luftwaffe Officers.\nBY THE PRESIDENT: Well, the only source of information which you have, you derived from this report?\nA.No, I had my information from many more sources. On the basis of this report now there is nothing to indicate (pause) -- from this report there is nothing shown that the Luftwaffe had any part in it, unless we knew that Romberg and Rascher were Luftwaffe Officers. There is nothing in this report to indicate that this is a Luftwaffe report.\nBY THE PRESIDENT:All right. Go ahead, Dr. Bergold.\nBY DR. BERG0LD: Witness you said just now that Romberg was a Luftwaffe physician, are you sure about that? This morning, he said he was a civilian.\nA.I don't know, I will agree with you (pause) -- at the time he was described to me, at the time of my investigation, when I saw this report.", "speakers": [ "BY THE PRESIDENT", "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1368, "page_number": "1081", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "I looked it over. And, of course, I saw the names, and I was then told that Dr. Ruff was the Director of this private concern, while Rascher and Romberg were described to me as Luftwaffe officers. I have since learned that Romberg was a civilian employee of the Luftwaffe. He had some Luftwaffe connections, because we knew about the fact that he had examined some Luftwaffe in France. He had some Luftwaffe connection. He may be a civilian employee of the Luftwaffe--\nDR.BERGOLD: -- I think not --, Doctor, he was an employee of the CVL.", "speakers": [ "DR." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1369, "page_number": "1082", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "BY THEWITNESS: (continuing) My investigation at the time brought forward -\nDR. BERGOLD:I only wanted to, make sure that you do not know it with certainty.\nBY THE WITNESS:He was not in uniform, but Ruff wore a Luftwaffe uniform at the time. And after I found this report I went to Dachau to find out what went on there; and I then interrogated numerous witnesses and asked than about what happened. And then I received the information which has been embraced in various reports, and which I am sure has been submitted to this and the other courts.\nBY DR. BERGOLD:Q. Concerning the Luftwaffe, and the high altitude experiments, was there any other secret report, or was there another secret report by Rascher made to Himmler?\nA.This report preceded a number of reports which are called \"interim reports\", which are proceeding reports, and I think the most elaborate one is the one if I recall rightly of April 5th, 1942, which is the report which contains the famous data concerning vivisection of beating hearts and so forth, which I think is well known to this court. These reports, these intermediary reports are not signed by Romberg and Ruff. They were signed only by Rascher.\nQ.Witness, in this report which you are holding right now, an experiment was described as a \"sinking\" experiment from an altitude of fifteen kilometers --correction, \"from an altitude of fifty kilometers -- still, correction, \"15\", and near the end it says: \"React to pain stimuli\" -\nBY THEFITNESS: -- on which page let me see it. (examining document) Oh, yes.\nDR.BERGOLD: -- Witness, -\nBY THEPRESIDENT: -- Dr. Bergold, to shorten the proof, the Tribunal is satisfied that the reference to pain is a reference merely to sensation, and does not indicate suffering. And so you needn't ask the witness about that.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "DR.", "BY THE WITNESS", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "BY THE", "BY DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1370, "page_number": "", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "DR. BERGOLD:Good. Then I can spare my question.\nQ.Witness -\nBY THEPRESIDENT: -- What I have said, has reference to pain - 1082 a stimuli about which you just questioned the witness.", "speakers": [ "BY THE", "Q.", "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1371, "page_number": "1083", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "DR. BERGOLD:Yes.\nBY THE PRESIDENT:That's what we are understandinq to mean \"sensation stimuli\".\nDR. BERGOLD:Thank you, your Honor.", "speakers": [ "BY THE PRESIDENT", "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1372, "page_number": "1084", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "BY DR. BERGOLD:\nQ.Witness, do you know, from International literature, that certain writers have the opinion that so-called foreign experiment should also be carried out on people condemned to death, under the terms and under the condition that they volunteer for this kind of experiment, and furthermore, that they be pardoned if they survive this experiment?\nA.It is a popular assumption.\nMR. DENNY:If your Honor please, I do not think that has any relevancy here as to what some writers think about whether or not experiments should be carried out on human beings, and whether or not they should be pardoned. That is in line with what I said this morning. I can not see how any trend expressed by text writers, whether they be people who are experimenters or not, have anything to do with the experiments with which we are here concerned.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Well, Mr. Denny, we are not applying statutory law here.\nMR. DENNY:I realize that, Sir.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Would it not be true that the known acceptance of a legal principle, for example, the known definition of humanity, would be a pertinent field of inquiry?\nMR. DENNY:Yes, it would.\nTHE PRESIDENT:In the absence of a statutory definition, and if is nationally accepted by civilized nations that a certain type of experiment is not inhumane, it seems to me the defense ought to be permitted to allege that.\nMR. DENNY:Very well, if your Honor pleases.\nBY DR. BERGOLD:\nQ.Witness, I suppose you can still remember my question, May I ask you to answer it?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "MR. DENNY", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1373, "page_number": "1085", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "A.It is a popular conception that such could or should be possible among laymen. I also have read in the papers that once in a while a condemned man will ask, instead of being executed, to be made the subject of a dangerous experiment. However, I know of no single case in the United States where such an offer was actually accepted and whore that was done. The reason for that may be that it invalidates the idea of the death penalty because if a man could evade the death penalty by submission to a dangerous experiment, he would then also have the opportunity to get off the death penalty by other public services, possibly even by payments. And while in China that is permitted, I think it would definitely put the whole idea of the death penalty open to serious objection because the death penalty should only be pronounced if a man is so dangerous to society that he will have to be annihilated. And if this idea as I said, could be validated by heroic services or other possible conceivable actions for the common good, then it could be argued that in this case the death penalty would have been unjustly pronounced in the first place. I have heard legal men argue about that end, as I said, I myself know of no single case personally in which, in the United States, the offer of a criminal to be made subject of a dangerous experiment, was accepted.\nQ.Doctor, your statements are very interesting. However, these statements are your opinion and not an answer to my question. I asked you if, in the International medical literature the people are of the opinion that if a criminal who is condemned to death comes as a volunteer, that is on being asked, not by asking himself, that experiments should be done on him. That is my exact question. Your opinion is very interesting to me, Doctor. However, that is not the answer to my question.\nA.I know of prisoners, criminals, having been used in experiments but I do not know that any man condemned to death was among them. And knowing the circumstances surrounding death row in American prisons (I have examined a good many men in death rows). I would regard this doubtful that it could be arranged because the thing is -even seeing such men -- so much hedged with formalities that I cannot see how it could be done practically.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1374, "page_number": "1086", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "It is something that is being said once in a while but I would regard it as strictly impossible that it could have been done in the United States. Certainly not in Massachusetts, the penal system of which I know very well. I cannot conceive of any of the Commissioners of Correction whom I have known, permitting it. And also North Carolina, where I served for a time, I would regard it at impossible too. I do not know anything about any other -- the intimate working of prisons in any other states.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The question, Doctor, is this: What is the consensus of opinion generally among writers on international penology or medical matters as to the propriety of such experiments?\nA.Of course my knowledge of the literature may be limited. I have read a bit about it but I think that the main objection among scientists against it would be that they would inadvertently become executioners, which I think nobody would cherish.\nBY DR. BERGOLD:\nQ.Doctor, I think you are evading me a little bit. I did not ask you how it is in America. I asked you, according to the International literature whether such experiments have been carried out, yes or no, and from discussions you had with my colleagues. Dr. Sauter, for instance -- I know that the defense during the first trial introduced literature and I take it that you have studied that literature in the meantime -- if one says I become a henchman through that, I want that as a clear and simple question. In International literature were cases known where experiments were carried out on criminals condemned to death with their consent and with the consent of the government? Were they carried out -- yes, or no -- . that is my question?\nA.No.\nQ.You don't know of any?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1375, "page_number": "1087", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "A.The literature which I have been given, -- I mean which I know anyway-- I know the papers to which Dr. Sauter and Dr. Rose at times and Dr. Brandt were referring to -- they did not refer to men condemned to death.\nQ.What kind of men did they refer to?\nA.Ordinary prisoners.\nQ.Oh, I see. In other words, experiments with normal prisoners were carried out, is that it?\nA.Yes.\nQ.Also experiments which were dangerous in part?\nA.With very limited danger.\nQ.You know of a book of Paul DeKruif, don't you?\nA.I know not only Paul DeKruit but also his reputation for veracity and I would not believe a word Paul DeKruit says. You can quote me to him himself. Paul DeKruif's books are full of inaccuracies. He cannot be quoted as an authority. Most of it is imagination.\nQ.Doctor, what do you think of these malaria experiments, then which were carried out in penal institutions and penitentiaries -3 penitentiaries as a matter of fact -- in the United States?\nA.I know them very well, and I have, if you want me to, I have the application blanks which the prisoners had to sign and the reasons they gave for volunteering. If you want to, I have especially studied before coming, the special conditions in all these experiments.\nQ.It is correct, however, that they did volunteer?\nA.Yes. They were contacted by the prison radio. The prison broadcasting system asked for volunteers and when nobody was canvassed personally. That is the information which I have. Then application blanks were distributed so that the requests would come from the prison. If you want to offer them in evidence I have the application blanks here. Duplicates were placed at my disposal by the University of Chicago which sponsored the program. On this blank the prisoner was explained -- it was explained to the prisoner what the experiment was all about and what the dangers were and he was told that if he wanted to try it and if he was considered eligible he could volunteer.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1376, "page_number": "1088", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "Then, out of the large number of volunteers, only a limited number were selected. Then all that was done publicly and a radio program was arranged and over the Chicago network the volunteers were asked to state their reasons for volunteering; and on this radio program the prisoners stated their reasons. And the men gave reasons such as \"my brother is in the army. He is in the South Pacific.\" \"I cannot join the army because I am in prison so I want to help that way.\" Another says \"My nephew is a malaria patient in an army hospital and that is the only way I can help win the war\" and similar reasons. And on the whole...then also the morale was kept high by speeches from army officers who commanded the men and told them they were proud to fight the same war with them. On the whole a spirit of high morale and sort of enjoyment of the adventure was maintained.\nQ.Witness, that is enough.\nA.I understand from the University of Chicago that no one died in that service.\nQ.Well, that is possible. That can happen once in a while. Were there experiments carried out in other states? Unfortunately I do not have all the material from my colleagues upstairs. However, I would gladly present that to you. I am sure we will have a fight upstairs when all these papers will be shown. In any case, experiments carried out on volunteers under the volunteer system were permitted from the point of view of morale?\nA.Yes.\nQ.And it is also correct, theoretically at least, in those malaria cases, that people could have died, because malaria also kills?\nA.It is theoretically possible.\nQ.Thank you.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1377, "page_number": "1089", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "DR. BERGOLD:I do not have any further questions to the witness.", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1378, "page_number": "1090", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. BERGOLD:\nDR. BERGOLD:In your Exhibit Book No. 2 you have some extracts of an official copy of the Freezing Conference on 26 and 27 October 1942, held in Nurnberg, and I wonder if you would please tell me what exhibit number you gave that?\nMR. DENNY:It appears on page 29.\nDR. BERGOLD:If your Honor please, this is a complete copy of the report in English. The copy that your Honor has only contains excerpts from a few pages in it.\nQ.Doctor, where did you study medicine?\nA.In Vienna, Austria.\nQ.And, one of the members of our staff gave you a copy of this report at some prior time? You have seen it before?\nA.Yes, I have.\nQ.And, would you tell the court whether or not some one who reads this report, as a medical man would be able to determine whether or not death had occurred during the experimental period or the experimentations that went on, which are here described?\nA.When I looked over this report, I looked it over. I did not look it over for certain things which are mentioned quite clearly in the report. It is obvious from the report that deaths occurred, but when I looked it over as an expert I was asked as to whether or not the report made it obvious that deaths and symptoms observed, were due to experimentations, and not due to observations incidental to partly observations.\nQ.And, what is your conclusion about that?\nA.My conclusion is that it is obvious from reading this report that it deals with experimentations.\nQ.And these are not observations which are incidental to mercy sea rescue missions?\nA.Exactly.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "MR. DENNY", "DR. BERGOLD", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1379, "page_number": "1091", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "Q.On page 11 Doctor, that is page 43 of the original, there is a large paragraph in the middle of the page. The second to the last sentence of this states the rigor is a condition reflex and not, as many persons apparently think, a contraction of the corresponding muscles due to cold. It ceases spontaneously at death. Could you say that that was in line with your conclusions?\nA.Yes, I think probably that observation could only have been made if persons watched them and not actually observed them in mercy sea rescue work. And that is what is at least clear in the prior sentences. In the copy which I was given to make this check I underlined all the sentences that gave the thing away, and there are some which are stronger than others.\nQ.Perhaps you would be good enough to point these out to the court?\nA.Particularly the sentences on page 11, the middle paragraph which reads which is very unlikely. \"The rapidity with which numbness occurs is remarkable. It was determined that already 5 to 10 minutes after falling in, an advancing rigor of the skeletal muscles sets in, which renders the movement of the arms especially increasingly difficult.\" That would imply if it had been an accidental observation that the person would have had to watch the man in the water from a beat in degrees which would have been very unlikely in war times, because the thing to do is to pull them out as fast as you can. And, I continue: \"With a drop of the rectal temperature to 31 degrees, a clouding of the consciousness occurs, which passes to a deep cold-induced anesthesia if the decline reaches below 30 degrees or more\" which might be duplication.\nQ.Are you familiar with the employment of Pathologists in Germany? Why do they employ Pathologists? What is the Pathologists' function?\nATo do autopsies.\nDR. BERGOLD:I have no further questions.\nCROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. DENNEY:\nQ.Witness, the defense just asked you if a medically-trained man could recognize, without further difficulty, those experiments, As a layman, however, what do you think his impression would be?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "A" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1380, "page_number": "", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "Can you tell the difference?\nA.I think it is probably easier for you or the Court to judge, in reading it whether they would recognize it.\n1091-A", "speakers": [ "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1381, "page_number": "1092", "date": "11 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-11", "text": "Q.Will you please repeat? I have everything in English here and I did not quite follow.\nA.Actually you yourself or the Court are more competent to decide this. I don't know whether you would recognize it or not. I mean that depends on the person who reads it. I think any one familiar with air sea rescue work or the difficulties of pulling in bodies from the sea? I am familiar with this because of my service with the Eighth Air Force, as well as a medical man would probably assume that such measures could not be done on such occasions. But what a complete layman would think I don't know, because I have both medical experience and practical experience as a member of an Army at war and therefore there is the double familiarity, which of course makes it impossible for me to say what a completely uninitiated person would think.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Would you class a member of the Tribunal as a complete layman?\nDR. ALEXANDER:Unless no had military service and would know the difficulties under which the air-sea rescue works, I would say that probably the members of the Tribunal could probably be regarded as unprejudiced medical or military men; these who had been serving in the military forces.\nTHE PRESIDENT:What you mean is that even the members of the Tribunal could not recognize this report unless they had actual experience? and not actual incidents?\nDR. ALEXANDER:I do not know. I mean the Tribunal could probably form an opinion.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Probably.\nDR. ALEXANDER:I did not mean to be disrespectful, your Honor.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Very well.\nDIRECT EXAMINATION:\nBY DR. BERGOLD:\nQ.Doctor, take it a little bit slower because this has to go into the record. Thus, the members of this Tribunal, insofar as they are not medical men or former members of a military establishment, could--it would be probably representative of the opinion which other known doctors and now Army officers could form about this statement?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. ALEXANDER", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1382, "page_number": "", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "1092-A", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1383, "page_number": "1093", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "Q.Doctor, you are a psychologist, aren't you; a psychiatrist we call then in German.\nA.Yes.\nQ.Doctor, don't you think that we all who are here and who have something to do with these trials are no longer in a position to describe unhampered the thinking of all these laymen because we studied these documents thinking that all these experiments, that these things are experiments; and that for that reason nobody of us is unprejudiced? Is that correct or not?\nA.That is true. Then I think you should probably put this report to a layman of the degree of initiation which you want to prove.\nQ.Doctor, I will put to you a precise question now. In this report there is a sentence -- it was possible now to carry out on people who had been exposed to cold water and rescued to carry out a series of experiments on these people. Isn't it correct, from your knowledge of the German language -- you are a Vienna man, aren't you?\nA.Yes.\nQ.That the sentence \"after long exposure in the cold water saved\"-that means rescued or saved people; because \"save\" and \"rescue\" is about the same in our German language.--That sentence was probably puzzling for a layman? That sentence was probably put in to cover the origin of the observation; is that right?\nA.That is quite correct.\nQ.In other words, we are speaking about the layman who believes those things.\nDR. BERGOLD:That is all I wanted to know; thank you.\nMR. DENNEY:I have no further questions.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The witness may be excused.\nDR. BERGOLD:Does the Tribunal desire a recess, or do you want me to continue?\nTHE PRESIDENT:We will continue.\nDR. BERGOLD:I ask permission to call the witness Ruff.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1384, "page_number": "", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "THE PRESIDENT: The Marshal will bring in the witness Ruff.\n(Witness SEGFRIED RUFF brought into the Courtroom)\nPlease raise your right hand and repeat after me:\nI swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure 1093-A truth and will withhold and add nothing.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1385, "page_number": "1094", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "(The witness repeated the oath).\nYou may be seated.\nDIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. BERGOLD:\nQWitness, I ask you to speak slowly; I ask you further to pause briefly after every question of mine before you answer so that the translation can be concluded. Please give the Tribunal your first and last name?\nAMy name is Siegfried Ruff.\nQWhen were you born witness?\nAI was born on the 19th of February, 1907.\nQWhat was your last position in the German government?\nAUntil September, 1946, I was active in theAeromedical of the American Air Force.\nQI mean when you were in the German Reich; I meant, of course, under the German government.\nAI was director in theAeromedical Institute in Berlin,Adlershof.\nQWas this a part of the DVL?\nAIt was an institute in the DVL among many others.\nQThank you. Witness, do you know Milch personally?\nAYes.\nQWhere did you meet him; do you recognize him here in the room?\n(Witness pointed out defendant Erhard Milch)\nDR. BERGOLD:I ask that the record show that the witness has identified the defendant.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The record will so show.\nQOn what occasion did you make his acquaintance?\nAI think I made Milch's acquaintance in 1933 or 1934 when he gave me an air medal decoration.\nQWhen did you meet him personally?\nASubsequently in the course of the years between 1934 and 1945, I met him perhaps three or four times personally on the occasion of his visits in the DVL.", "speakers": [ "A", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1386, "page_number": "1095", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "Q.Did you speak with him on these occasions?\nA.Briefly.\nQ.During the time of the Dachau high altitude and freezing experiments did you negotiate with him personally regarding these experiments?\nA.No.\nQ.Witness, you have signed an affidavit. Your Honors, this is Exhibit No. 108,NOKW 140, of the 25th of October, 1946, in Document Book 5B of the Prosecution, page 139. Witness, you said the following in a sentence: As chief of the medical inspectorate, General Hippke was the immediate subordinate of Field Marshal Hilch. Do you know that for certain, or is that only an assumption on your part?\nA.This subordination relationship so far as I can remember is known to me; to be sure after I signed this affidavit I found out that this subordination relationship had lasted only for a certain length of time in this form.\nQ.How long?\nA.Until the end of 1941, I was informed.\nQ.You have been misinformed again, witness; I asked you where did you acquire the knowledge which you here sat down and swore an affidavit.\nA.From conversations with Hippke in the medical inspectorate; from these conferences I understood this subordination relationship to be thus.\nQ.But you have no positive proofs?\nA.No. I never saw an organization plan or such.\nQ.You further stated, regarding the high altitude experiments, Field Marshal Milch was in my opinion informed of the experiments either by Dr. Hippke or by the SS. Is that again certain knowledge or an assumption on your part?\nA.An assumption, based on the fact that I knew that the SS, for example, made efforts to show the film on high altitude experiments to Milch; and that also Rascher and Romberg were present at the show in the Air Ministry, at which, to be sure, Milch was not personally present.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1387, "page_number": "", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "On the basis of these facts I base this assumption.\n1095a", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1388, "page_number": "1096", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "Q.You then stated the freezing experiments performed in 1942 were carried out in Dachau by Dr. Rascher only without assistance of Dr. Romberg, and there can be no doubt that Dr. Hippke and Field Marshal Milch were informed of the results of the experiments. How do you know that without doubt Milch was informed of the results of the freezing experiments?\nA.I assumed this from this collaboration, this is really saying too much, I mean of the contents that existed in the case of high altitude experiments.\nQ.So you assume that there was a similar contact in the case of the freezing experiments?\nA.Yes.\nQ.But a real basis and data, as for instance in the case of Milch, regarding the film on high altitude, that you do not know of?\nA.I don't know; moreover, I mentioned it several times when drawing up this affidavit, when this affidavit was drawn up. I could not suspect that it was going to be submitted in this form and alone. This affidavit was drawn up in connection with a long lasting interrogation and I presumed this affidavit to be a short summary of the points which seemed important to the interrogator; and of course assumed that in addition to this affidavit the entire interrogation would be appended, and when I signed this affidavit, which can be seen from the minutes of that -- of that interrogation -- I specifically emphasized that precisely that I had no factual substantiation precisely of this last sentence, but I had to assume it from the knowledge and experience with the high altitude experiments and because of the subordination relationship then between Milch and Hippke.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1389, "page_number": "1097", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "Q.Witness, I come now to the high altitude experiments. There is a report here which must be known to you of the 28th of July 1942, of the DVL on rescue from a great altitude. In this report, witness, you and your collaborators expressly corroborated the fact that no fatalities occurred and no serious or permanent damage.\nA.Yes.\nQ.Is that still your opinion now?\nA.That is not my opinion but that is a fact.\nQ.Witness, in the meantime this trial that is taking place on the next floor has proved, probably to your satisfaction, that Dr. Rascher carried out a number of lethal experiments during the course of these experiments?\nA.That I know.\nQ.Were they then any part of these experiments that this report is about?\nA.No, that was not a part of these experiments described in these reports. The experimental goal of Rascher's experiments is not exactly clear to me today, although Rascher's reports fall within the framework of the documents which are being submitted in the trial upstairs and consequently I have heard them read, but from these reports of Rascher to Himmler one cannot detect the experimental goal of these experiments, although I believe I can assert that in this field I am an expert to a certain degree, namely in the field of aviation medicine.\nQ.Witness, you have not yet explained to me why these other experiments fell outside the field of these DVL experiments?\nA.What I have said so far is that at least the experimental goals were quite different in the two cases, and as I have already said I am not entirely clear even today as to what the experimental goal of Rascher was in his experiments; but in addition to this, these experiments were carried out on other experimental persons.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1390, "page_number": "", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "Furthermore, in the course of these experiments of Rascher, there was no way in which I could see that the Luftwaffe played a role, that a contribution was trying to be made to save people from high altitude when they bailed out. In all experiments such as are described in this report it was a question 1097a of ascertaining whether up to a specific height, namely, a height of twenty kilometers, a parachute jump was possible, and under what conditions it was possible.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1391, "page_number": "1098", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "Rascher's investigations had not the slightest thing to do with these things and that is to be seen very clearly from the reports of Rascher to Himmler.\nQ.You say \"very cleanly\", and we have just heard Dr. Alexander who said that all of this fell within one frame-work. How will you please explain to us a little more precisely.\nA.When it is said that these experiments fall all within one framework, then this must be a very, very large framework. One can say that both experiments, so far as they arr mentioned in the report to Himmler and so far as they arr mentioned in our report, they had something or other to do with altitude, and that would be the framework within which they both fall, but it can by no means be said that Rascher's experiments had anything in any way to do with bailing out by parachutes.\nQ.That was what this task was about, in other words, to find how to save people who jumped out from great heights?\nA.Yes, that was the case clearly defined and clearly worked out, the experimental plan with which Romberg went to Dachau.\nQ.But in what way did Rascher's experiments deviate from these experiments? You must give a very precise description of this, otherwise we hear empty words and have no clear picture.\nA.So far as I can judge, Rascher's experiments, and from the scanty reports to Himmler, he, for instance carried out experiments in which the experimental person was kept at the same altitude for a long period of time. In parachute jumping, of course, from the moment on at which they leave the plane, the person never remains at the same altitude, rather he falls from a great height downward, that would be the point.\nQ.But in this report an experiment is described namely, an experiment of Romberg on himself in which he also remains at one height for a long time.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1392, "page_number": "1099", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "A.I believe because of this experiment and Rascher's experiments explained precisely this fact, and the interpretation attached to the results of the two experiments, that here he described something in the realm of experiments on a person's self which falls entirely outside the framework of this experimentation with the parachute jump. It is expressly stressed, the experiments as stated there for explanation it is the question of experiments in high altitude, and for this reason in the case of the experiments involving the parachute jumps, on the experimental persons there were very few external symptoms, sometimes there were more obvious symptoms, to find out where they came from, these two experiments on themselves were carried out. If such experiments had belonged in the rank of the parachute experiments, then more of them would have been described, and not merely these two self experiments would have been described in the report.\nQ.You then wish to persist in your assertion that there were no fatalities within the rank of the Luftwaffe experiments?\nA.In these experiments there were no fatalities.\nQ.You spoke previously of the fact that Rascher has used other experimental persons. That distinction is to be drawn between the experimental persons who took part in the experiments described in the report and the socalled other experimental persons?\nA.Regarding the experimental persons Romberg and Rascher used for the experiments I approved and I can report on them precisely, but on the experimental persons Rascher used, I can only repeat what the Prosecution has told us, and by repeating what Rascher said about his experimental persons.\nQ.Please do so.\nA.Our experimental persons were condemned and habitual prisoners who had volunteered for these experiments. These experimental persons were housed in a common room, and were taken care of as a group, well taken care of and were given tobacco and so forth. In other words, it was definitely a separate experimental group, and as regards the status of Rascher's experimental persons I can only repeat what the Prosecution said.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1393, "page_number": "", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "They are said to have been members of various nationalities, even prisoners of war and so on. From personal experience I 1099a can say nothing about these experimental persons.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1394, "page_number": "1100", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "Q.Did you at that time choose the people for your own experiments?\nA.No, I did not do so myself.\nQ.Who did it for you?\nA.The choice of the experimental persons was carried out by the management of the concentration camp Dachau, under the experimental directive for the carrying out of experiments themselves.\nQ.Are you sure they were really volunteers?\nA.Yes.\nQ.How did you assure yourself of that?\nA.I was once in Dachau to look at the conduct of these experiments and spoke with the experimental persons in connection with the experiments which had been carried out and asked them what had been their life previously and asked them why they were in concentration camps and also asked how many had volunteered for these experiments, and I must emphasize that there was no doubt in my mind that these were voluntary persons and that I never asked a specific question, such as: Did you volunteer? That question I did not ask. That was simply assumed, taken as a matter of course by myself. I asked, rather, how many had volunteered for these experiments, and I was told approximately sixty.\nQ.Witness, how were you so sure they were volunteers?\nA.There was no doubt in my mind, since first of all the chief of the medical inspectorate of the Luftwaffe had months previously given his approval in principle and there was no doubt in my mind that he would never have given his approval under any circumstances unless it had been a question of volunteers, and he also informed me of this fact.\nQ.Witness, that was not quite an answer to my question. You could have been deceived by the SS Camp Commander?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1395, "page_number": "1101", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "A.That is possible, of course, but before I went to Dachau I was with Romberg once in Berlin. He informed me of these experiments. Since I had never undertaken previously experiments in a prison or penitentiary or concentration, it is understandable that I first asked him if those things were really being carried out as they were being set down. I asked him what sort of people were really being used for experiments and I was told serious criminals. I asked what \"serious criminals\" were. Romberg informed me. I asked him if he personally discussed the voluntary aspects of their participation with the prisoners. He answered that he did. I knew ail these things when I went to Dachau.\nQ.Witness, did you not have any misgivings about carrying out such experiments even with volunteers because such appoint of view was entirely new in science throughout the world?\nA.No. Not at all. In medical research in the whole world, it is customary to carry out experiments in this form and on such persons; on criminals, on prisoners in camps and so on.\nQ.It is also described in literature that criminals condemned to death are used voluntarily in such experiments?\nA.Yes. It is described in literature in the case of criminals condemned to death who volunteer and even those who do not volunteer. Such cases are described in world literature.\nQ.Do you know the passages in world literature because Dr. Alexander is not familiar with them?\nA.I personally have read them in literature, although, at the moment, I am not able to cite the passages exactly, but that is not difficult. In the description of small pox vaccinations, which experiments in England finally led to a successful vaccination George I, of England, for this purpose used six criminals who had been condemned to death. The physicians has certain misgivings about this sort of experimentation, however, not medical misgivings though. He said to himself, \"If one of these people dies during the experiment, then I have taken over the function of the executioner, and there is then the danger that I will be considered guilty by my colleagues for the death of the experimental person.\"", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1396, "page_number": "1102", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "However, the experiment was nevertheless carried on. All six survived as far as I know. The experiment was then repeated on six orphans.\nQ.In other words, it is set down in literature that such experiments are made on criminals condemned to death?\nA.Yes.\nQ.Is it not also so that even imprisoned persons who are not condemned to death are subject to such experiments voluntarily?\nA.To a very large extent. You do not have to go as far back as I did in my previous example. The fact is that in very important epidemics, many such experiments are carried out, for example, during the war in the United States.\nQ.I am only interested in European states at the moment. Were experiments of this sort carried out in European States?\nA.In all the cultural states of the world, such experiments have been carried out.\nQ.Witness, when did the high-altitude experiments end?\nA.They ended at the end of May. May be the first few days of June.\nQ.You cannot say for sure?\nA.I cannot say that the chamber was already in Berlin before the first of June.\nDR. BERGOLD:I have no further questions.\nMR. DENNEY:Your Honor, I maybe a little time with this witness. In order that he is not prevented from talking to counsel over the weekend, perhaps I better not start my cross-examination until Monday. There is a rule in Tribunal One, that if any person is being cross-examined, he is not available for interrogations or discussions with counsel. I would rather wait until Monday, if Your Honor please?\nTHE PRESIDENT:Plainly, you could not finish with him this afternoon, so you would rather not do it piecemeal?\nMR. DENNEY:Yes.\nTHE PRESIDENT:We have made such good progress, I do not think we will begrudge the ten minutes we could continue.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1397, "page_number": "1103", "date": "14 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-14", "text": "MR. DENNEY:If Your Honor wants me to I will ask him some questions\nTHE PRESIDENT:I think not. Let us have it all in one bite. The Court will recess until 9:30 on Monday morning.\nTHE MARSHAL:The Tribunal is recessed until 0930, 17 February, 1947 (The Tribunal adjourned until 17 Feb.\n1947 at 0930 hours) Official transcript of the the American Military Tribunal in the matter of United States of America against Erhard Milch, defendant, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 17 , February, 1947, 0930.", "speakers": [ "THE PRESIDENT", "THE MARSHAL", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1398, "page_number": "1104", "date": "17 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-17", "text": "Justice Toms, presiding.\nTHE MARSHAL:All persons in tho courtroom please find your seats. The Honorable, tho Judges of Military Tribunal No. 2. Military Tribunal No. 2 is now in session. God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal. There will be order in tho Court.", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1399, "page_number": "1105", "date": "17 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-17", "text": "SIEGFRIED RUFF - Resumed CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. DENNEY:\nQ.May it please Your Honors. Witness, when did you first discuss the altitude experiments?\nA.I don't quite understand the question. What do you mean by \"discussed\"?\nQ.Do you know what \"discussed\" means? When did you first talk about the altitude experiments?\nA.Do you mean talked about it to anybody at all or delivered a report on it?\nQ.Before the experiments took place.\nA.Roughly, the end of 1941 or the beginning of 1942.\nQ.And with whom did you talk about it?\nA.With Professor Weltz.\nQ.Where did that talk take place?\nA.In my institute.\nQ.In Berlin?\nA.Yes. In Berlin.\nQ.When did you first talk to Dr. Hippke about them?\nA.Shortly thereafter -- a few days thereafter; also, in other words, at the end of 1941 or the beginning of 1942.\nQ.And this was all before the experiments started?\nA.Yes, before they began, yes.\nQ.And at that time you talked About the serious nature of the experiments?\nA.With Professor Hippke and Professor Weltz, I spoke of the dangers involved in the experiments: whether or not these existed; other words, discussed the risk involved.\nQ.And when did you first learn that concentration camp inmates were going to be used?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1400, "page_number": "", "date": "17 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-17", "text": "Those experimental persons who wore to come from concentration 1105(a) camps were discussed for the first time when Professor Weltz at the end of '41 or the beginning of '42 was in my institute.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1401, "page_number": "1106", "date": "17 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-17", "text": "QAnd when you talked about it later with Hippke, you discussed the fact that concentration camp inmates would be used?\nAYes.\nQAnd did he tell you that he had misgivings about them? He wanted to be sure that people were used who have been condemned to death?\nAWe talked regarding the entire question of the use of prisoners. He told me, on this occasion, that regarding the question of using prisoners, he, roughly at the beginning of 1941, had talked this over with Weltz, Rascher and Rottenhoff in Munich; and on this occasion, he stated his basic approval of this procedure on the condition that exclusively serious criminals should be used who were involved for these experiments.\nQIn this talk with Hippke, it was shortly after you talked with Weltz, either late in '41 or early in '42?\nAYes, in connection with that talk with Weltz.\nQ when did you first go to Dachau in connection with these experiments?\nAI think that was in the end of January or the beginning of February 1942; again, not very long after the talk with Professor Hippke.\nQAnd when did the experiments start?\nAAt the end of February or the beginning of March.\nQWhom did you see when you went down to Dachau the first time either at the end of January or the beginning of February '42?\nAI was in Dachau at the same time as my collaborator Romberg, with Weltz, Rascher and two officers of the SS of the Camp,Dachau took part in the conversations.\nQDid you see any of the experimental subjects at that time?\nAI was there for the first time, no.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1402, "page_number": "1107", "date": "17 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-17", "text": "Q.And you had this meeting there with two SS Officers, Romberg, Rascher, Weltz , and you discussed the experiments?\nA.We did not discuss tho experiments themselves in detail. The officers in the camp were interested only in what was going to be done in a broad outline and just what tho danger was that was involved in this experiment. It was a relatively short talk which concerned itself essentially with the technical pre-requisites for the experiment; how much electric current, what accommodations,rooms, and so on.\nQ.And who ordered the low-pressure chamber down to Dachau?\nA.Who brought it down or who gave the order? Which do you mean?\nQ.Who ordered tho chamber to be brought to Dachau?\nA.Who ordered the chamber to be brought to Dachau?\nQ.The low-pressure chamber, which before the experiments was in the DVL, was brought by myself to Dachau with the help of transport workers of the DVL , after I had received Hippke's authorization.\nQ.So Hippke ordered that it be brought down and you brought it down with some other people?\nA.Hippke gave mo the authorization to take the chamber to Dachau.\nQ.And after that, did you go back to Dachau again?\nA.Subsequently, at one time when the experiments were going on I was in Dachau.\nQ.When you first took tho chamber down there, which you say was late in February, did the experiments start right away?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1403, "page_number": "", "date": "17 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-17", "text": "A.So far as I know, they did not begin immediately, But between the time when tho chamber was brought to Dachau and the tine that tho experiments began, there was a short interval.\nQ.So you took the chamber to Dachau and then you wont back to Berlin?\nA.I myself, did not take the chamber to Dachau, I was net present when it was actually taken there.\nQ.Did you, at that time --- you said that you and some SS people 1107(a) brought it from Berlin on Hippke's authorization?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1404, "page_number": "1108", "date": "17 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-17", "text": "A.No, I didn't say any SS people and myself brought tho chamber to Dachau, I said rather, with the authorization of Hippke, tho chamber was taken by transport workers of the DVL to Dachau.\nQ.You didn't have anything to do with moving it down there?\nA.I, personally? No.\nQ.When did you go back to Dachau then? We have the first visit in January-February '42, then the chamber gets down there, and then when did you got back again?\nA.When tho experiments were in their first few weeks I, myself, went to Dachau and inspected the experiments there.\nQ.Were tho experiments performed?\nA.Yes.\nQ.Was anybody killed?\nA.No.\nQ.When was this that you wont down there to inspect?\nA.During tho first weeks during which tho experiments were going on, but I can't tell you precisely when that was.\nQ.Was it in March '42?\nA.I assume it was, yes.\nQ.Did Romberg report to you that some deaths had taken place?\nA.Yes, he did.\nQ.When did he report that to you first?\nA.The end of April or the beginning of May.\nQ.How many did he toll you had taken place?\nA.One.\nQ.And what did you do when he told you that?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1405, "page_number": "", "date": "17 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-17", "text": "A.When Romborg gave no this report that on the occasion of the experiments that Rascher undertook, on his own initiative, ostensibly on Himmler's orders, I discussed with Romborg in great detail, on the basis of the minutes that were kept on our experiment what was to be done. We were in agreement that we should break off 1108(a) these experiments as soon as possible and send the chamber back to Berlin.", "speakers": [ "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1406, "page_number": "1109", "date": "17 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-17", "text": "I then attempted to r each Hippke, however, he was on an official trip, and then told Romberg, who was going back to Berlin, to end the experiments and to send the chamber back to Berlin.\nQ.Hippke was away and you couldn't get in touch with him? Bid you try to get in touch with him again?\nA.Shortly after Romberg had gone back to Dachau, I reached Hippke, visited him, and told him of ' what had occurred.\nQ.You told him someone had been killed?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1407, "page_number": "1110", "date": "17 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-17", "text": "A.I told him that there had been a fatality, that in our opinion Rascher was carrying out experiments on his own initiative, the experimental goal of which was not clear to me, that their justification was not clear to me either, and that for this reason I had given orders that our experiments be terminated although they had not gone as far as we really wanted them to, and that we had seen to it that the chamber was returned from Dachau as soon as possible.\nQ.Did you hear about any more deaths down there?\nA.Later I heard that there were further death cases down there.\nQ.When did you hear that?\nA.I heard that, as far as I recall, after the return of the chamber after Romberg's return.\nQ.Did Romberg tell you within a week or two after he had made his first trip to tell you of the initial fatality that two more deaths had occurred?\nA.He did tell me of two further fatalities. This he told me after the chamber was returned to Berlin, and as far as I can recall the time today, it was three or four or five days after the chamber was returned that he called me up and informed me that we were finished and that the drivers could fetch the chamber, and on this occasion, as far as I can still recall today, he then informed me that Rascher had made two further experiments but he told me no details.\nQ.He did not tell you that anybody died?\nA.No, he could do that only with difficulty over the telephone.\nQ.Afraid somebody might be listening from the SS?\nA.Yes, that would have been a possibility.\nQ.So, you only heard about one death then?\nA.At first only of one, and then later of two further ones.\nQ.When did he tell you about these two further deaths, just at the time that he told you that the experiments were concluded?\nA.As I said, when he returned with the chamber he told me about the fatalities.\nQ.When was it? What month?\nA.In May.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1408, "page_number": "1111", "date": "17 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-17", "text": "Q.May of 1942. Did you tell Hippke about these?\nA.At the beginning of June I visited Hippke again, and we spoke of the chamber and of Rascher's experiments once more. For this reason, namely, because at this discussion there was a letter from the SS, namely from General of the Waffen-SS Wolf in which this man demanded or requested that the chamber be left for a longer time in Dachau; on this occasion I told Hippke that, in addition to this one case cf which I had informed him, Rascher, as far a.s we knew, had in addition carried on a whole series of experiments. We did know that for certain that he had carried on individual experiments, but we assumed that he did not stop with these individual experiments but carried on many others.\nQ.Well, the chain cf command was Hippke, Ruff, Romberg, Rascher, was it not?\nA.The military chain of command? Is that what you mean? That is not entirely correct, what you said.\nQ.Well, you tell me what is correct then. Tell me what the chain of command was.\nA.There was one via Hippke. Hippke as Medical Inspector of the Luftwaffe was Rascher's highest superior in his capacity as a Luftwaffe officer. This chain of command, as far as I could judge, was not direct but via a Luftgau command on the Weltz's institute and then to Rascher, but I should like to emphasize here that my knowledge cf the military chain of command within the Medical Inspectorate of the Luftwaffe is not absolutely certain, but that is my notion of what that chain of command was.\nQ.Well, you could certainly tell Romberg what to do, couldn't you?\nA.I? Romberg was my subordinate, yes.\nQ.And you reported to Hippke, didn't you?\nA.I reported to Hippke, yes, but between me and Hippke was no military chain of command.\nQ.You were not actually in the army were you? Haven't you always said that you were a civilian during all this?\nA.Yes.\nQ.But you worked for the Laftwaffe?\nA.He worked for the Luftwaffe and for civilian aeronautical societies, For industry and such.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1409, "page_number": "1112", "date": "17 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-17", "text": "Q.As far as the Luftwaffe was concerned, anything that you had to do it if you would go to see Hippke; wouldn't you?\nA.Not entirely, no.\nQ.Whom would you see?\nA.That depended.\nQ.Well, about the high altitude experiments; whom would you go to see?\nA.In the high altitude experiments I went to Hippke for the following reasons: The portable low pressure chamber that had to be used for these purposes belonged to the Medical Inspectorate. Consequently; for these experiments I had to apply to Hippke for the use of this chamber. In addition these experiments were a collaboration between one of my co-workers with a.scientist who was not directly but indirectly subordinated to Hippke. It was of course; understood that in such matters I had to go to Hippke to inform him of what was being planned.\nQ.So he was the responsible person directly above you as far as the Luftwaffe was concerned in these experiments; wasn't he?\nA.Hippke was in my opinion and as far as I could judge the chain of command was indirectly at least responsible for Stabsartz of the Luftweffe Rascher, but I already said that the chain of command was not known to me in such detail as to permit me to assert this with certainty.\nQ.Do you remember being interrogated on 22 October 1946?\nA.I was interrogated at the end of 1946. Whether it was on 22 October I no longer recall.\nQ.You were asked this question? \"The high altitude experiments were ordered by the following channels of command\". It is in reverse order; of course; that they are said here. \"Romberg; Ruff, Hippke; Milch.\" Do you remember when you were asked that by Captain Koff?\nA.Yes, I do.\nQ.Do you remember what you answered to it?\nA.I presume that the answer was yes, but on Friday while being interrogated by Mich's Counsel I was told that opinion of mine at that time was erroneous.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1410, "page_number": "1113", "date": "17 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-17", "text": "THE PRESIDENT:Mr. Denney, is the interrogation from which you just read in evidence?\nMR DENNEY:No, Your honor, it is not. We plan to offer it at a later time, I am just probing his power to recollect.\nBY MR DENNEY:\nQ.Did you order any other steps to be taken with reference to Rascher after these deaths were reported to you?\nA.No, I did not.\nQ.So you knew that some people had died and you didn't do anything about it.\nA.No.\nQ.Do you know how many experiments were carried out down there?\nA.You mean in numbers? No.\nQ.Do you know how many experimental subjects they had?\nA.Yes.\nQ.How Many?\nA.Ten.\nQ.Ten? Didn't you tell the Court on Friday that they had 60?\nA.Not I, no. T hat was probably falsely translated.\nQ.Don't you remember when you were down in Dachau, going to see these people; you told the Court that you must emphasize \"There was no doubt in my mind that these were voluntary persons, that I never asked the specific question, such as 'Did you volunteer,' but that was simply assumed, taken as a matter of course by myself, I asked rather, How many had volunteered for these experiments, and I was told approximately 60.\"", "speakers": [ "MR DENNEY", "A.", "Q.", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1411, "page_number": "1114", "date": "17 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-17", "text": "A.Yes, in that context the number sixty is correct. However, I did not stay on Friday that Rascher told me so.\nQ.You didn't say that Rascher told me; I said that.\nA.I said that on Friday, I had spoken with the experimental persons because I was interested to know how many had volunteered for these experiments; that is, how many volunteers they had from which to make a choice, and it was on that occasion the number sixty was mentioned to me.\nQ.The people were just clamoring to get into the pressure chamber, weren't they?\nA.According to what one of the prosecution witnesses said, one really did have the impression that a not inconsiderable number of people wished vigorously to partake in these experiments.\nQ.When did the chamber leave Dachau?\nA.End of May.\nQ. 1942?\nA.Yes. 1942.\nQ.Do you remember that report that Dr. Bergold showed you the other day? -- In German?\nA.From the report Dr. Bergold read something to me on Friday and queried me about it.\nQ.This report was made to whom; do you recall?\nA.This report was drawn up by Romberg and Rascher, and was sent t o Himmler, Milch, Hippke and individual offices of research and industry which were involved in the planning and construction of security implements; and with, construction of planes that were to climb to very high altitudes.\nQ.You signed this report, didn't you?\nA.I did, yes.\nQ.When you signed it, you knew it was going to be the Reich Fuehrer SS Himmler?\nA.When I signed it, I knew that also a copy would of course certainly go to Himmler.\nQ.Isn't it addressed to Reich Fuehrer SS? Himmler?\nA.Yes, Not the address of the report, but as I remember two or three.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1412, "page_number": "1115", "date": "17 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-17", "text": "copies of the report were so addressed.\nMR DENNEY:Could I have the number of that exhibit?\nDR BERGOLD:No. 114\nMR DENNEY:If your Honors please, we are discussing Exhibit No. 114, which is the report signed by the defendant, among others, to Himmler concerning high altitude experiments; Prosecution Exhibit No.114.\nQ.That report was made to the SS, wasn't it?\nA.No, from this accompanying letter that you just showed me it can be seen that the copy number two, three and four of the report were sent to the Reich Fuehrer SS; that can be seen from the accompanying letter, but it cannot be seen from this letter that the report was made to the SS.\nQ.Who is the letter addressed to?\nA.The address of such is not addressed at all; there is an accompanying letter with it to the Reich Fuehrer SS.\nQ. who got the first copy of the report?\nA.I can't say any more, I don't remember.\nQ.You had something to do with the forwarding of it, didn't you?\nA.I can't recall all the details about where it was sent; I remember that the copy two, three and four were sent to the Reich Fuehrer SS; or rather, I no longer remember that fact, but only through now seeing the document does it become clear that these copies were sent to the Reich Fuehrer SS. I assume that all other copies were sent by the Department in the DVL which printed the report, and which, in general always forwarded or sent out all reports. Why in this particular case we sent the report ourselves, I can no longer say today; I don't know.\nQ.When did you write that report; when did you send it forward?\nA. 22 September 1942 is the date on the accompanying letter, the report itself is dated 28 July, 1942.\nQ.Did you in the report say anything in there about deaths having taken place?\nA.No.", "speakers": [ "MR DENNEY", "DR BERGOLD", "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1413, "page_number": "1116", "date": "17 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-17", "text": "Q.Didn't it occur to you to include that information?\nA.The fatality that Rascher had, you think they should have been mentioned in the report: Did I understand you correctly?\nQ.I am asking you whether it occurred to you -- it doesn't make any difference what I think.\nA.No, that idea did not occur to me because those experiments lay outside; these experiments you cannot report on experiments as regard a certain sector included in that report, reports on fatalities or occurrences in an entirely different set of experiments.\nQ.What method did they set up in Dachau to determine which of these two sets of experiments that you maintain existed were being worked on? How did any one who was down there know when a man stepped into the chamber, whether or not he was going to be in one of yours or in one of Rascher's\nA.How did Romberg know? Is that what you mean?\nQ.How did any one know it?\nA.Anybody couldn't have known it; the only people who could know were those men who were entrusted with the experiments.\nQ.Did they have signs on these experimental subjects; one would come in with a big SS on his chest, and the next one would come with Luftwaffe written on his chest?\nA.No, I never heard about it.\nQ.Well, I guess the only way anybody knew somebody was just about to die, that this must be one of those SS Experiments outside the scope.\nAThe director of the experiments knew very well what sort of experimental methodology to be used; in other words, what sort of the low pressure experiments they were treating there, handling their problems. For instance, I cannot carry out any experiments: to clarify the question, what happens to a parachutist when he bails out at high altitude; if in the experiment that is in the low pressure chamber, I keep the experimental person for half an hour at the same altitude, 13 to 15 kilometers; these two things have nothing in common.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "A" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1414, "page_number": "1117", "date": "17 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-17", "text": "QWould you say then when Romberg was present at the experiment, experiments were certainly being conducted as part of your plan?\nANo. When you interrogated me on this subject what Romberg had told me, when he come and told me of the first fatality, I said at that time that Romberg explicitly informed me that Rascher was carrying out experiments outside the framework of our experimental program, allegedly on Himmler's orders. The fact that Romberg was down there has nothing to do rich those experiments of Rascher's.\nQAfter you told, him to send Rascher away, to stop him, two more people were killed, weren't they?\nA.Yes\nQWhat did you do about that?\nAI did not have to do anything at all about that because at the tine I found out about this chamber that it had already been returned from Dachau; the Rascher experiments had already been stopped.\nQThe other day when you were questioned about some experiments I believe you mentioned the King of England, George I; is that right?\nAYes, I did.\nQNow, when you were interrogated on the 22nd of October, at the conclusion of your interrogation you were asked this question by Captain Copp. The freezing experiments were Rascher's monopoly, and I assume that Milch and Hippke were kept informed about them. Do you recall that?\nAThat question was probably asked.\nQYou stated, yes Hippke certainly, but I cannot say that to you positively; to judge front the whole nature of the organization, Hippke must have known about it.\nAYes, that could be.\nQThen you were asked, so Hippke knew about it, and with him logically also Milch because ho reported to him directly.", "speakers": [ "A", "A.", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1415, "page_number": "1118", "date": "17 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-17", "text": "QYou answered yes, that is so.\nAYes.\nQAnd then you were asked, so you are convinced that Milch was kept informed about the progress of the results of the freezing experiments; do you remember that?\nAIn detail no, but there was some interrogation in that general direction and probably that question was asked.\nQAnd you answered, yes, I am convinced of it?\nAYes, that could be.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1416, "page_number": "1119", "date": "17 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-17", "text": "RE-DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. BERGOLD:Witness, on Friday, I asked you regarding your affidavit in reference to which you were questioned by Mr. Denney, in regard to your statement that there was no doubt that Marshal Milch was informed of these Rascher experience you asked if you had any basis for that statement and you said you had none, that that was only a conjecture; is that correct?\nA.Yes, of course, I was asked just now by the prosecution whether these questions were put to me in the interrogation at that time, and whether I at that time gave those answers, and I said that in my answers to those questions I assumed from the entire connection, that Hippke was informed and that he informed Milch also.\nQ.But you have no positive basis for this statement?\nA.No. From the rest of the context of the Interrogation, I pointed out at the time of the Interrogation that I had no positive basis for my answers.\nQ.Witness, you said that after you had heard of the first fatality, you informed Hippke and informed him also as to the measures you had taken to interrupt the high altitude experiments and to bring them to an end and to return the chamber.\nA.Yes.\nQ.Did Hippke agree to your measures?\nA.Yes, very much so. There was a telegram in this discussion from the SS, I do not know from which office, but it was from the SS.\nQ.Witness, you stated previously that you discussed the dangers or non-dangers of the experiments you made on yourself at the end of 1941, or the beginning of 1942. What was your opinion as regards the danger of these experiments?\nA.I was of the opinion that these experiments were certainly not quite simple and easy experiments. However, on several occasions I stressed that, to the best of human knowledge, death cases would be out of question in those experiments and accordingly I gave a reason for my opinion.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1417, "page_number": "", "date": "17 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-17", "text": "Q.Witness, you further stated before that according to the statement of a prosecution witness, the persons at Dachau were ardently desiring to be experimented upon. Of which witness and of which prosecution do you spear\nA.Of the prosecution in this trial and of the witness Mewe who testified that Rascher had been addressed by persons -- while the experiments were being carried out -- asking him to be allowed to take a part in the experiments.\nQ.Witness, you s rated before you could not remember clearly why the first, second and third copy of your report had been forwarded to Himmler? In this connection I must ask you: Did you know that Himmler had ordered secrecy with respect to those experiments?\nA.Yes, I knew that.\nQ.And was that the reason that the copies were sent to Himmler?\nA.There were a number of copies sent to other officers, which seemed to contradict that assumption.\nQ.You said that you reported to Milch; did you report directly to Milch or did you think that it went to Milch via Himmler?\nA.As far as I remember it went through that channel. BY DR. BERGOLD: You have answered my questions. Thank you.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Did you state that Himmler sent a copy of this report to Hippke?\nA.No, I was misunderstood. I said that copies of this report were received by Milch and by Hippke. I know only that we personally sent these three copies of the report to Himmler. I also told the Prosecutor that the other copies, if I remember correctly, were not sent cut by us, nor by me, nor by my institute, but that the department of the D.V.L. did the printing and the sending cut of the copies of the report.\nTHE PRESIDENT:So far as you or the institute were concerned, you sent all of the copies of this report to Himmler?\n1119 a", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1418, "page_number": "1120", "date": "17 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-17", "text": "A.Your Honor, I know only that three of these copies of this report were sent by me or my institute to Himmler.\nQ.And these are the only copies which you, yourself, sent out?\nA.As far as I recall, yes.\nQ.If Hippke and Milch received any copies, it was not directly through you?\nA.No. In the case of Milch and Hippke, I know that they did each receive one of the three copies of this report which was sent to Himmler; attached copy of this report to Hippke and to Milch and one to Himmler, because later I discussed it with Hippke and we both thought it was a rather unusual and strange path for a report on experiments to take, experiments which were really Luftwaffe experiments, designed to reach those in the Luftwaffe competent for those experiments. But this was demanded by the SS, or Himmler, I assume for that reason to tell Hippke later, \"You see, he helped you so much with your problems, your experiments, etc.\"\nQ.But it was the SS or Himmler that ordered that this path be taken?\nA.Yes, they did so, so that they would be able to say: \"Look how helpful we are being.\"\nQ.You said that you later talked to Hippke about the report and that he told you that ho had received a copy of it?\nA.Yes.\nQ.Did you ever talk to Milch and ask him if he had received a copy?\nA.No. Neither before nor after did I ever say one word on this matter to him.\nQ.You assumed that if Hippke got a copy of the report, that he shewed it to Milch?\nA.Yes.\nQ.But you do not know that?\nA.No, that I do not know.\nQ.Did Hippke tell you that he had sent a copy of this report to Milch?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1419, "page_number": "1121", "date": "17 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-17", "text": "A.No, he didn't tell me that. On the contrary, he told me that he had received his report via Milch.\nQ.Hippke told you that he had received the report of these experiments from Milch?\nA.Yes, from Milch.\nBY JUDGE MUSMANNO:\nQ.Witness, did you say that you know that two copies went forth, one to Hippke, and one to Milch? Did I understand you so to say?\nA.I can't say for sure, but it is quite possible that one and the same copies went first to Milch and then from Milch's office was forwarded to Hippke.\nQ.I had understood you to say that individual or separate copies went one to Hippke and one to Milch? That is the way I understood your testimony originally.\nA.That, I personally from my knowledge, cannot say. I can assume that, but direct knowledge of the facts, I cannot make that statement.\nBY DR. BERGOLD: Your Honor, perhaps I might be permitted to remind you that this matter was covered by Hippke's letter of 25 August, and went to Milch on the Himmler matter and to Milch's office. But this report reached Milch's office on the 31 August, with a request for acknowledgment of receipt.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1420, "page_number": "1122", "date": "17 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-17", "text": "QI come now to the experiments themselves. There were a series of experiments, to say, one for the Luftwaffe to ascertain, namely, what happened to parachutists when they bail out at high altitude, and there was a second series in the Rascher series with a goal which was not clear?\nAYes.\nQIn the trial against you were there an indication that these two series had nothing to do with each other?\nANo, that is not to be said.All those things had been clarified upstairs.\nQWitness, I come now to the question in the meantime which I have found out, something that involves the question that criminals were allowed to be used for dangerous experiments. Is it not true that relatively recent on the occasion of the plague experiments, prisoners were used? Where and when were those carried out?\nAThe plague experiments were carried out on prisoners shortly prior to the first World War, 1910--1912, in Manila by Professor Strong, now a professor at Harvard University. Professor Strong laid the foundation for all of these experiments for a receptive vaccination against the plague.\nMR. BERGOLD:No further questions. No further questions, Your Honor.\nMR. DENNEY:No further questions, Your Honor.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The Marshal may remove this witness, please.\n(Witness excused)\nTHE PRESIDENT:Before the next witness is called we will take the customary recess.\nTHE MARSHAL:All persons please rise. This Tribunal is now in recess for fifteen minutes.", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "THE PRESIDENT", "MR. BERGOLD", "MR. DENNEY", "Q", "A" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1421, "page_number": "1123", "date": "17 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-17", "text": "THE MARSHAL:Military Tribunal Number 2 is again in session.\nDR. BERGOLD:I will ask to call the Witness Brandt.\nTHE PRESIDENT:In this connection, the witness has stated to the Marshal, who has repeated the fact to the Court, that he will not voluntarily appear before this Court because of his physical condition. I think the following facts should be put on the record.\nThe Witness is a defendant before Tribunal 1. On February 13, through his Counsel, he made this statement to Tribunal 1.\n\"The accused, Rudolf Brandt, is according to my observation no longer fully capable of being tried. I consider him as being seriously ill. He has a dangerous cough that has deeper causes. His body weight amounts to 50 kilograms, Brandt feels bodily and physically weak and incapable of being present at the sessions. His mental elasticity has also considerably diminished. I feel the defense can hardly be appropriately carried out if a considerable improvement in his condition does not ensue.\n\"I, therefore, request that he be released from the sessions until a betterment of Ms condition sets in. I assume that the Tribunal doctor will immediately undertake a thorough examination.\"\nThat is signed by Dr. Kaufmann. Pursuant to that communication, Tribunal 1 directed that the Witness-Defendant be examined by the prison physician. This was done on the same day, and a report from the prison physician, Captain Charles Roska, was submitted to the Tribunal. That report is as follows:\n\"Physical examination of Rudolf Brandt done on this date reveals no organic diseases. The Defendant is underweight, but this is not due to any organic cause. At present he is weak and somewhat confused. This is ascribed to Ms depression and deep concern over Ms ultimate fate. It is planned to supplement Ms daily food ration and treat Ms depression. There is no contra-indication to Ms standing trial at the present.\"", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1422, "page_number": "1124", "date": "17 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-17", "text": "This is signed by Charles J. Roska, Captain, Prison Physician.\"\nOn the basis of that report, Tribunal 1, entered an order, which after reciting the facts, determined as follows:\n\"The Defendant, Rudolf Brandt, will be present for all further sessions of the trial before this Tribunal, unless he be hereafter excused by the Tribunal from attendance at the trial. This order is dated 14 February. This order is entered without prejudice to the right of the Defendant, Rudolf Brandt, to again request the Tribunal to excuse him from attendance at the trial if in his opinion and that of his counsel, his physical condition becomes such that his attendance in Court would seriously endanger his health.\"\nThis is signed by the Presiding Judge of Tribunal 1. These are recent facts, Dr. Bergold, and I think your decisions as to whether you wish to call this witness should be made with these facts in mind.\nDR. BERGOLD:May it please the Court: I talked to the witness at his request and he tells me that he is feeling very ill. He does not think he is strong enough to stand up to a real interrogation. I would be prepared in view of this state of affairs, not to call him today, if the Court will give me permission, in about a week's time when he feels better to obtain from him an affidavit. I am only interested in a cross-examination of his statement in which he stated he knew Milch had been well-informed on everything. He told me through his own counsel that he had no very precise basis for that statement at the time, as in the case of other witnesses.\nI am prepared to take into consideration his state of health and call him in a few days' time and hear him before a Commissioner to obtain an affidavit, if the Court approves that decision.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Of course, Mr. Denney, if you wish to take the alternative of conceding that he had no personal knowledge of the facts explained; with other words if you are content to accept the affidavit literally, it might not be necessary to call the witness at all. That is for you to determine, however.", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1423, "page_number": "1125", "date": "17 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-17", "text": "MR. DENNEY:If Your Honor please, I am not in a position to make that concession. I submit that there is no difference between taking testimony before one member of the Court by way of an interrogatory and having the man come into court to testily. If he wants to get another affidavit from him, that is up to Dr. Bergold. I am not in a position to object to affidavits after the number we have submitted. But I think that he should either testify or prepare an affidavit for Dr. Bergold. I certainly object to his testifying more or less ex ca the final before a commission.\nTHE PRESIDENT:After all, this is a defense witness. I presume the defense has some choice as how the manner in which his proof will be presented.\nMR. DENNEY:Certainly. They adjourned the first case so these men can come down here. They have a certificate from the doctor which I certainly think is proper that the man is all right. Now he says, \"No. I do not want to come in and testily.\"\nTHE PRESIDENT:Dr. Bergold has decided he will not call the witness in person at this time. What subsequent form his proof shall take it is to be determined by Dr. Bergold.\nDR. BERGOLD:I would suggest that I would be satisfied with an affidavit before a Commissioner.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Very well. You may adopt that procedure.\nMR. DENNEY:I assume the Prosecution will have the same right to call the witness to cross-examine him about this affidavit?\nTHE PRESIDENT:Of course.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:Dr. Bergold, if ho can summon the necessary physical strength to appear before, as Hr. Denney well said, before one member of the Tribunal or if he submits his affidavit, I do not understand why he could not come into court unless there is some mental element involved.", "speakers": [ "THE PRESIDENT", "DR. BERGOLD", "MR. DENNEY", "JUDGE MUSMANNO" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1424, "page_number": "1126", "date": "17 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-17", "text": "DR. BERGOLD:I believe in view of his poor health, he is afraid to appear in a big court which might confuse him.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:This is not a very big court.\nDR. BERGOLD:Quite so, Your Honor. I can only pass on what he told me.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:Very well.\nDR. BERGOLD:I would like to add this, c have to hold a brief meeting anyway with a Special Commissioner for the witnesses Neurath and Raeder. This hearing will be fairly brief. On that occasion perhaps one could hear Brandt. You could do all this in one day. Would that be better? That would 1 ok after Mr. Denney's right completely.\nMR. DENNEY:I have no objection to that, Your Honor.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Very well. Wednesday would be a very convenient day for that.\nMR. DENNEY:I wonder if at that time, we might have the Witness Speer brought up, too. I have one or two questions I would like to ask him.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Any witnesses you wish.\nMR. DENNEY:I did not ask him any questions the time before.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Any witness you wish to examine can be examined at that one session. That applies to either side.", "speakers": [ "THE PRESIDENT", "DR. BERGOLD", "MR. DENNEY", "JUDGE MUSMANNO" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1425, "page_number": "1127", "date": "17 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-17", "text": "DR. BERGOLD:The witness may be taken away now.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The witness may be taken back, Marshal.\nDR. BERGOLD:May it please the Court, I shall now read from Document Book 2, the reading of which was interrupted on Thursday night, I stopped when Karl Wolff s statement was read. Exhibit No. 35. I stopped at page 5 of the original. I can shorten this considerably because I have heard that Wolff has arrived as a witness and Mr. Denney's wish to examine him himself is now possible. I can therefore concentrate on the essential points of that document and I will leave out everything else. This is page 7 of the original.\n\"5. I do not remember anything of the negotiations between Milch and Himmler in May-June 1942, on the strength of which the previous decision to discontinue the experiments was reversed.\"\nThen I come to a figure 7: \"I do not know who was the first in the Luftwaffe to grant the permission for the high altitude and freezing experiments.\n\"8. I have no direct knowledge why the Reichsfuehrer-SS directed, according to document No. 1607, that all information should go to Milch, for Himmler has not talked to me about it. I can only presume that he wanted to do a favor to the hard fighting Luftwaffe and to collect thanks and acknowledgment for it from Goering.\n\"9. Unless I could see the service diary, Himmler's and my own, in which the conference, or better , the meeting at the dinner or coffee table must be marked, I cannot, to the best of my knowledge, answer the question whether I had attended, during the indicated period, a conference between Himmler and Milch.\n\"10. As far as I recall, I had a short talk with Milch on the low pressure experiments when we happened to meet in the summer of 1942 in the Fuehrer's headquarters. No matters except these mentioned in my above statement (see also my answer to question 4) were dealt with, concerning the concentration camp experiments, on that occasion.", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1426, "page_number": "1128", "date": "17 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-17", "text": "\"11. Who took the initiative of presenting the films at Milch's office, I do not know.\n\"13. I do not know from my own experience what Hippke's position towards the experiments was, for as far as I know I have never talked to Hippke personally, I have already dealt with Milch's position under questions 4 and 1.\n\"15. I do not know, nor do I believe, that Milch knew Dr. Rascher personally.\n\"Signed: Karl Wolf.\"\nThen as Exhibit No. 36, I submit an excerpt from the records of Military Tribunal No. 1 of 13 January 1947. I shall read this. I believe it's on Page If of Your Honors' book.\n\"Excerpt from the Transcript of the Military Tribunal No. 1, Nurnberg, Germany, 13 January 1947.\"\nJUDGE PHILLIPS:That is your Exhibit No. 36?\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes, 36.\n\"Session from 9:30 to 12:30, pages: 1551-1552 of the German version.\n\"Mr. Hochwald:\" I presume he is a member of the prosecution on the first trial. I do not know the gentleman myself, but this is what I have been told. \"I turn now to DocumentNO-1312, Prosecution Exhibit 338:\n\"The Director of the Mental Institution of the District Association Upper Bavaria Eglfing-Haar, Contract.'\n\"I have been instructed by the director of the mental institution Eglfing-Haar, Obermedizinalrat Dr. Pfannmueller, with regard to the kind of work and my duties in the special ward of the children's ward of the mental institution Eglfing-Haar, in which children of the Reich Committee for the Scientific approach to severe Hereditary and Constitutional Diseases are confined.\" I leave out one sentence and go over to the next page.\n\"I have been instructed that I have been ordered absolute secrecy as to the incidents which will become known to me during the treatment of the children of this ward, and that the law provides that any breach of secrecy will be punished with the death sentence,\" I leave the rest.", "speakers": [ "JUDGE PHILLIPS", "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1427, "page_number": "1129", "date": "17 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-17", "text": "Signature: \"Eglfing, 26 April 1941.\" Three names follow:\n\"Dentlmoser Emma, Spindler Maria, Lang Emma.\"\n\"The next document, No. MO-1311, which will be Prosecution Exhibit 339, another document swearing to secrecy one of the officials of the insane asylum: Obligation:\n\"I, the undersigned, have been obligated by handshake instead of by an oath, on the part of the director, to receive and to copy matters concerning the Reich which have to be kept secret. I herewith undertake to keep all papers which should become known to me under the heading 'Top secret' strictly secret, and never to give anyone knowledge of them without Specific order from the director of the Institution, Dr. Pfennmueller. My attention has been called to the fact that if I should not keep this oath of secrecy, I will face prosecution by the Gestapo, and that I will have to count with the possibility of the death penalty if I should either carelessly or deliberately divulge matters which have become known to me as 'Top Secret'.\n\"Eglfing-Haar, 20 february 1942. Signature: Erich Frank.\"\nThe next page follows, 1557. Mr. Schiller is speaking, another official of the prosecution team.\n\"Now, turn to the next Document on page 126 of the Document Book. I offer in evidence Document No. 1143 as Prosecution Exhibit No.343. This consists of eleven letters of inquiry as to the whereabouts of former inmates of Eglfing-Haar Institute. It is interesting to note that these inquiries are not made by private individuals, but by Government agencies, that is Reich Government agencies.\n\"From page 1559, No. 182 V.k.H. back inclusive one document.\n\"To the Supreme Prosecutor in Nuremberg with information that Sofie Sara Wiesengrund, in accordance with a decision of the Reich Minister of the Interior was transferred in a collective transport of Jewish patients on 20 September 1940 to an institution unknown to us. Eglfing, 9 January 1941.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1428, "page_number": "1130", "date": "17 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-17", "text": "\"The Director:\n\"Initialled.\"\nThe prosecution continues: \"This clearly shows that the secrecy of the program at this time was such that even other Reich government officers and ministers were not being informed as to the exact disposal of the patients.\"\nYour Honors, here we have heard from witnesses that were in Dachau that they had to sign secrecy orders and obligations. They are of the same manner -- you can see they are the same type -- how careful they were and how they threatened people with death, and these experiments were kept secret even from ministers and Reich agencies. This was the rule Himmler observed, which may be objectionable but it did exist.\nI now turn to the next document, the affidavit of Freiherr von Kruedener, born 15. 6. 1906, of 30 January 1944. This will be Exhibit No. MI-37. It's the last document, but one in my document book. It's on page 44 of my document book. I submitted the original to the Secretary-General.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1429, "page_number": "1131", "date": "17 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-17", "text": "\"I, Hans Joachim Freiherr Von Krubdener, born 15 June 1906 at Sitienka, residing in Braunfels on the Lahn, have been told that I shall be punished if I make a false statement under oath. I declare on oath that my statement is true and that it was made to be presented as evidence to the Military Tribunal No. 2 at the Palace of Justice, Nuernberg, Germany.\n\"I state as follows:\n\"One day in 1944 Milch met me in the corridors of the Reich Air Ministry on the way to the conference room and, passing me hurriedly, said to me, 'How aro you?'. In reply to my brief answer that on the previous day I had been called to the building site of a mineral oil plant to see for myself the untenable conditions in the concentration camp there and that I was worried about it, Milch, already half inside tho conference room, turned around, drew me into the opposite window seat and asked me to give him full particulars of the matter, although about 40 men were waiting only for him. Milch did not interrupt my report which went on for several minutes. When I had finished, he asked simply 'What did you do about it?'. When I told him that I had assumed responsibility for interrupting the construction work without any regard to the dates reported to the superior authorities, until the necessary work in the prisoners' quarters was finished, he thought for a short while and then turned towards the conference room. In the door he turned around once again and said, 'All right, all right. I cannot catch the guilt persons either., and disappeared. As far as I was concerned the incident was closed. About four hours later, immediately after the end of the conference, Milch summoned me and informed me that during tho conference he had had occasion to talk to Reich Minister Speer (or Commissioner General Geilenberg) about my report.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1430, "page_number": "", "date": "17 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-17", "text": "He said literally, 'Speer will phone the competent SS general. It will be more effective than if I do it.' Then Milch bade me goodbye and callod after me, as I was already going through the door, 'If anybody bothers you about the building dates, see me immediately.' Actually, an SS Obergruppenfuehrer, who was in charge of these camps, went there two days later already, inspected the camp thoroughly, and ordered a change in conditions which exceeded by far the measures taken by me, and succeeded.\n1131 a \"In order to be able to appreciate this incident fully, I must add that during these weeks and months Milch worked 14 hours and more daily, that he took his meals at his desk, often standing up, and that he was more than overburdened with work.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1431, "page_number": "1132", "date": "17 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-17", "text": "Since the incident described had nothing whatsoever to do with him, I appreciate it all the more that, in his own impulsive way, he used his personal position and the possibilities it gave him to do something humane entirely outside of his normal duties, just as a good deed.\n\"I am therefore deeply convinced that the atrocities mentioned in the press with which Milch is charged are not true.\n\"(Signed) Hans Joachim Freiherr von Kruedener \"I herewith certify that the above signature of Hans Joachim Freiherr von Kruedener, residing at Braunfels on the Lahn, was given in the presence of the undersigned.\n\"Braunfels, 30 January 1947, the Local Court, signature, Inspector of Justice as recording official in the office of the Local Court.\"\nThen there are statements on the left about the costs.\nI shall now submit the next affidavit by Dr. Lotte Mueller of 7 January 1947, the last document in my document book. It will be given the Exhibit Number MI 38. I shall hand it to the Secretary General. It consists of a letter and an affidavit. The letter reads as follows:\n\"Dr. rer. pel Lotte Mueller, Berlin-Halensee, 20 January 1947. Kurfuerstendamm 154 a. To the International Tribunal in Nuernberg for the Defense Counsel of former Field Marshal Milch, Nuernberg, Palace of Justice.\n\"Attached please find an affidavit concerning the case of the former Field Marshal Milch to be used at your convenience. I would like to point out that I have made this declaration voluntarily and without being in any way influenced by others.\n\"Respectfully yours, (signature) Dr. Mueller.\"\nThe affidavit reads as follows:\n\"My deceased father Dr. Karl Mueller, was Oberstudiendirektor i.R. (retired) in Potsdam, and previous to 1933 leading Social Democrat in Potsdam.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1432, "page_number": "1133", "date": "17 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-17", "text": "On account of his political activity he was arrested by the Gestapo in July 1933 and brought to a concentration camp.\n\"Upon the request of my brother, Dr. Martin Mueller, who was killed in action in the meantime, the (later appointed) Field Marshall. Milch used his influence to have my father released from the concentration camp although he knew that my father was arrested for his activity as a Social Democrat. Herr Milch, in spite of considerable resistance from those around him, at last succeeded in having my father released from the concentration camp at the beginning of December 1933.\n\"I further certify that I have not been a member of the NSDAP nor of any of its affiliated organizations.\n\"Berlin, 7 January 1947 (signature) Dr. Lotte Mueller.\n\"I certify that the above signature is that of Miss Lotte Mueller, Berlin-Halensee, Kurfuerstendamm 154a, in charge of the deportment for food of the magistrate of Greater Berlin. Berlin, 7th Jan. 1947. The Notary (signature) Dr. Erich Trost.\"\nThen there is the charge, of course, which is usual in Germany.\nThis is as far as my document book goes. I shall now, if it please the Court, read the interrogation of the witness Speer.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Before you do that, Dr. Bergold, will you give us two dates: first, the date on which the film was shown in Berlin, at which Milch, it is claimed, was not present; second, the date of the report of Rascher, Romberg, and Ruff to Himmler -- the one we were talking about this morning.\nDR. BERGOLD:The date of the film is 11 September 1946. I beg your pardon, 11 September 1942. The report is dated 28 July 1942. It is probably the letter to Reichsfuehrer SS of 22 September 1942, refers, as the witness stated, to copies 2, 3, and 4 of the report of 28 July 1942.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The report was actually transmitted on September 22, 1942?\nDR. BERGOLD:I think only the copies 2, 3, and 4. It is probable that copy 1 passed on to Himmler before and Himmler on 25 August 1942 sent it on to Milch.", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1433, "page_number": "1134", "date": "17 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-17", "text": "That, in my opinion, is connected. Himmler also received copy 1 and passed it on to Milch.\nMR. DENNEY:I don't think we are interested in Dr. Bergold's opinion on what happened to the first copy of the report. All that Your Honors asked was about these three copies that are mentioned here and these are 2, 3, and 4. There is nothing to show where the first one went. It certainly does show that these three went to Himmler and it is just possible that he did not get the first one or that he did. I don't know.\nTHE PRESIDENT:In any event it was in September when these three went and it was in August when the first one went, if it went.\nDR. BERGOLD:On 25 August Himmler sent a report to Milch.\nTHE PRESIDENT:All right. How about the date of the film?\nDR.BERGOLD: 11 September 1942.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Thank you.\nDR. BERGOLD:I shall now read from the record of the interrogation of Albert Speer.\nTHE PRESIDENT:What Number are you going to give to the interrogation of Speer?\nDR. BERGOLD:That is the next number.\nTHE PRESIDENT: 39?\nDR.BERGOLD: 39, yes.\n\"4 February. Interrogation of Albert Speer. Nuernberg, Germany. Present: The Honorable Judge Musmanno, Mr. Denney, Dr. Bergold, the Marshal.\"\nDo I have to read it word by word?\nMR. DENNEY:If Your Honor please, I see no reason to read all the preliminary. Let him just read in what he wants and I will concede that the witness Speer was present, that Judge Musmanno was present, that the prosecution was present, and that he was administered an oath, and then Dr. Bergold can read in whatever parts of it he wants to.\nDR. BERGOLD:I only want to point out that he was under oath.", "speakers": [ "THE PRESIDENT", "DR.", "DR. BERGOLD", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1434, "page_number": "1135", "date": "17 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-17", "text": "THE PRESIDENT:That is conceded, Mr. Denney, is it not?\nMR. DENNEY:I conceded it, yes.\nTHE PRESIDENT:I might say that what you are about to read I have already read, Dr. Bergdld, almost entirely. The members of the Tribunal have a transcript of what the witness said and we have read it.\nDR. BERGOLD:Very well, then I can do without all this. I only thought I had to read it into the record here.\nDR. BERGOLD:I, therefore, submit the Exhibit No. 39, Speer's interrogation under oath of 4 February 1947, and would ask the Court to take official notice of this.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Very well. The exhibit has been marked and will be admitted in evidence and considered a part of the record. Has the Secretary-General a copy of this? Will you mark it as an original exhibit M-39? The Document Division is directed to include this transcript in its compilation of the testimony so that this will appear as part of the testimony taken. The transcript is numbered from Page 1 through Page 51. Now this has already been mimeographed, and it merely calls for including it in the daily transcript as it is prepared. It needn't be recopied of course. That is done.\nNOTE:The transcript mentioned above now numbered page 1 through page 51, will hereinafter be referred to as page 1136 through 1186.", "speakers": [ "MR. DENNEY", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "NOTE" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1435, "page_number": "", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "INTERROGATION OF ALBERT SPEER held on 4 February 1947 at Nurnberg, Germany.\nPRESENT:The Honorable Judge Musmanno Mr. Denney Dr. Bergold\nMARSHAL:All persons in Court II, rise.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:We are now about to discuss what are technically known as interrogatories, but we will proceed as if the witness were testifying in Court; the same latitude in examination and cross examination will be permitted.\nDR. BERGOLD:I suppose, Your Honor, that I shall first ask the witness his name. Will he be questioned under oath?\nJUDGE MUSMANNO.Mr. Denney, what has been the practice in interrogatories? Has the witness been sworn.\nMR. DENNEY:Frankly, Your Honor, I don't know.\nDR. BERGOLD:The witnesses have been sworn.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:Yes. Will you please rise and be sworn? Do you swear by Almighty God, to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth in this proceeding: that you will withhold nothing and reply directly to all questions which are put to you and for all of which you will answer to on the day of the last judgment?\nWITNESS:I do.\nDR. BERGOLD:Your Honor, may I also be seated, please?\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:You may be seated.\nDIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. BERGOLD:\nQ.Witness, please state your name and previous occupation.\nA.My name is Albert Speer. From 1942 to 1945, I was Reich Minister for Armaments and Munitions, from 1943 on, Reich Minister for Armaments and war Production.\nQ.Are you acquainted with the defendant Milch, who is not present here? 1136", "speakers": [ "Q.", "WITNESS", "JUDGE MUSMANNO", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "MARSHAL", "JUDGE MUSMANNO.", "MR. DENNEY", "PRESENT", "JUDGE MUSMANNO" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1436, "page_number": "1137", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "A.Yes; I worked very closely with him.\nQ.How long have you known him?\nA.I have known Milch, personally, for certain, since 1938, but had no closer contact with him before 1942.\nQ.Do you know that, before the outbreak of this war, Milch had charge of all technical matters of the Luftwaffe, and informed you of them?\nA.This become known to me in the year 1942 or '3, when Hitler told me that Milch, before the outbreak of the war, when western European cities were reviewed or visited, showed the technical and secret apparatus.\nQ.Can you remember any details or any special events that aroused his attention; and details about the order or the communication system that aroused his attention.\nA.I must first recapitulate, or rather, state, that Hitler was very excited at that time, and told me that this lack of secrecy in these matter was a very great threat to the German security at the beginning of the war. At this time he mentioned mainly the demonstration of the new radar equipment which made it possible to detect enemy planes through fog; in other word radar. Hitler at that time assumed that the enemy did not at that time have such equipment at his disposal. Consequently his efforts to develop modern radar equipment, which had their source in this inspection.\nQ.Thank you. Did you know that Milch conducted the same demonstration for the leaders of the Polish air Force?\nA.No; there was no talk of that at that time.\nQ.Did you know, during the beginning of the war, that Milch was Inspector General of the Luftwaffe?\nA.Yes, that I knew.\nQ.Did you know what the sphere of activity was of an Inspector General.\nA.I don't know that from my own experience closely enough to (Continued) say anything definite about it, but let me add, I know only of Milch, that perhaps in 1942 or '3, that Milch said to me, \"Goering does not wish that he occupy the position as Inspector General of the Luftwaffe.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1437, "page_number": "", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "1137 (a)", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1438, "page_number": "1138", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "Q.But this was only in 1942 or '3?\nA.Milch could not tell me that before then, because I was not in such close contact with him before then.\nQ.Do you know whether the previous Generalluftzeugmeister Udet was subordinate to him in his capacity as Inspector General of the Luftwaffe?\nA.From my own experience, I do not know that either, since that was before 1942; I know only of having heard of it from Milch later; that Milch said when Udet and Goering worked very closely together and that the relations between Milch and Udet were not so good.\nQ.Did you know that at that time, namely, when you became Reich Minister the relations between Milch and Goering had become tense and poor.\nA.I don't know whether there had been bad relations between then previously. At any rate, after the first few weeks of my activity it was clearly to be seen that the relations between Milch and Goering were not good.\nQ.I come now to the Central Planning, witness. Whose thought was it first to create the Central Planning Board?\nA.That was my idea. I spoke about it to Milch and then we spoke of it together to Goering.\nQ.Is it not correct to say, witness, that you went first of all to Hitler and received his permission to create such a board, and then went to Goering?\nA.The pre-history of this is a little bit longer than that; shortly after I was named Minister there was a meetng in the Air Ministry. In this conference Milch held the chair. The representatives of the various divisions of the army, a few representatives of the Four-Year-Plan, Funk and others were present. During this conference, everyone was unanimous that it was necessary to create some sort of common planning and arbitrat office. Funk suggested (Continued) that Milch, as the eldest present, should occupy that position.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1439, "page_number": "", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "Thereupon, I laid emphasis on the point that I should occupy that position. Subsequently there was a meeting with Hitler in the Reich Chancellery, in which hitler defined to me my tasks, and most of the 1138 (a) participants in the previous meeting were present.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1440, "page_number": "1139", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "As a result of this conference there took place under my chairmanship, in my ministry, at another meeting at which the participants in the meeting were shown a document from which it was to be seen that all common interests and problems would, in the future, be decided by myself. The Plenipotentiary General for the Four-Year Plan was concerned in this document, and originated in it. In a few weeks, I came to the point of view that it would be better if I had a joint position with Milch, in order to introduce some responsibility for many letters, and consequently, at that time it was that I suggest the creation of the Central Planning.\nQ.During your talk with Goering which you had after the intention was formed to create the Central Planning, did not Goering then say that you should not interfere in any way with the Four-Year Plan, and is it true that he then explained that the Central Planning would concern itself only with the distribution of raw materials, etc?\nA.In that what you have stated is not entirely correct. I believe I have to relate this to the whole picture. In this meeting that took place at my ministry, and that is the document that everyone signed that was present, Goering, as representative of the Four-Year Plan, felt himself to have been offended. He told me at that time that under these conditions he could not continue as Deputy for the Four--Year Plan. In particular, he was upset because many Plenipotentiary Generals of the Four-Year Plan had signed this document without having informed him of their intention previously. Both the creation of a Plenipotentiary for Armaments and for the Central Planning were steps that attempted to fix more firmly Goering's position of power on the outside.\nQ.Was this also the reason why Goering suggested that Koerner be taken into the Central Planning?\nA.Yes; that is true. Milch and I had the intention of carrying on the Central Plannings alone; Goering asked that Koerner be taken into the Central Planning as third member.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1441, "page_number": "1140", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "Q.I ask you now to define precisely what the tasks of the Central Planning were?\nA.The tasks of the Central Planning are laid down in the Creed of Goering's that pertains to the Central Planning. In the main, it was a question here of a distribution and allocation of those raw materials which were necessary for the entire conduct of the economy; further, it was a question of the planning of intended construction for enlargement, for instance, in the chemical industry on long range scale and thus also it concerned determination for the setting down of a large scale raw materials program. A further point which was designated -- set forth in the decree of the Central Planning -- was the regulation of the transportation problem. This point, however, did not become effective and, in its place, a transportation staff for the Reich Communications Ministry was set up.\nQ.Can one say that most of the meetings of the Central Planning concerned themselves with the question of raw materials; for instance, iron, coal, and what not?\nA.The meetings of the Central Planning concerned themselves almost exclusively with the distribution of raw materials; that is to be seen from the almost 60 verbatim minutes of those Central Planning meetings.\nMR. DENNEY:If Your Honor please, I think I've been quite lenient with Dr. Bergold in the questioning but I would appreciate it if he would stop leading the witness.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1442, "page_number": "1141", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "Almost every question he asks has been objectionable from the standpoint of putting the answer in the witness' mouth. He can ask him what the meetings were concerned with, why was Koerner at it, what happened when the witness saw Goering - that's perfectly all right, but for him to say, \"Was Koerner added because of this\" or \"Were the meetings concerned solely with this or that or the other thing\", doesn't really reflect a true picture. I don't suggest that the witness is taking his answer from him. I don't believe he is, but in order that record may be sharp and clean I'd appreciate it if he'd ask his questions properly.\nJUDGE MUSSMANO:Dr. Bergold, are you familiar with the AngloAmerican expression \"a leading question\"?\nDR.BERGOLD; Yes, I am.\nJUDGE MUSSMANO:I presume from your experiences in the first trial that yon understand what Mr. Denney has in mind?\nDR. BERGOLD:Oh, yes.\nBY DR. BERGOLD:\nQ.I have just shown the witness an exhibit of the Prosecution: namely, from Document book 2A of the Prosecution. It is a decree of the Witness'. Witness, I ask you to explain to the Tribunal in what capacity you issued this decree; that is to say, whether as Armaments Minister or as in charge of the Central Planning?\nA.That is a very difficult question to answer. This decree was necessary because the Reich,......or the entire war production had been transferred to me from the Reich Ministry of Economy. It was further necessary some time previous to that I had signed a decree regarding the Central Planning Office, and this decree gave too many powers to the Planning Office. (Planungsamt), to which Funk objected, so that this other decree, the one you showed me, tried to create order in the situation.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "DR.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "JUDGE MUSSMANO" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1443, "page_number": "1142", "date": "02 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-02", "text": "To he sure, in a certain sense, the decree is concerned with the work of the Central Planning, because I, as Plenipotentiary General for Armaments in the Four-Year Plan, wanted it, and in the previous decree, had been designated the leader both of that and the Central Planning Board. However, when drawing up this decree I did not call a meeting of the Central Planning, nor did I note that Milch concerned himself particularly with the decree. It was a purely private matter that took place inside my ministry.\nQ.Are the offices that you list in the decree offices of the Central Planning or of the ministry?\nA.Please tell me which offices you mean in particular there are so many of them listed here, or rather I believe I know what you mean.\nQ.I want to know, witness, whether these various offices that you listed here are offices of the Central Planning or of your ministry?\nA.I shall glance over the decree rapidly and ascertain that the offices that are provided for here are not offices of the Central Planning, with the exception of the Planning Office, namely, Planungsamt, which had the job of preparing for the meetings of the Central Planning, but which of course did so but which worked for Central Planning only in this capacity.\nQ.Witness, in what way did this Central Planning Office work otherwise; that is, this Planungsamt?\nA.The Planungsamt was also the planning office for my ministry and had to oversee the entire war production and make suggestions for procedure to me.\nQ.In a document submitted by the Prosecution there is also a Planungsamt, Planning Office of the General luftzeugmeister.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1444, "page_number": "1143", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "Did this Planning Office work together with the Central Planning or with your own Plannugsamt in the Armaments industry?\nA.They had nothing to do with each other so far as I know; the Planning Office of the Air Ministry had the function of taking care of long range and planning long range air programs and, in addition, also of course, keeping contact with the various offices of my ministry.\nQ.Witness, the so-called Armaments Inspectorates and Commandoes are also mentioned; are these organs of the Central Planning?\nA.No. The Arments Inspectorates and Armaments Commandoes were competent solely within the Armaments Office, which was directly subordinate to me personally.\nQ.Thank you. Then, in another exhibit the expression \"Rustungsdienststelle\", Armaments Branch Office, is mentioned. What do you understand by the term \"Rustungsdienststelle\"?\nA.It was our blanket term for Armaments Inspectorates and Armaments Commandoes, and so on.\nQ.Within the framework of the Central Planning, witness, was any discussion of labor or the allocation of labor -- I ask you to explain to the Tribunal, within what context and to what extent this took place, such discussion?\nA.The Central Planning did not concern itself with the total requirements of manpower. The meetings of the Central Planning, in which labor problems wore discussed, can be subdivided into two categories. The first category: Hitler had given me plenipotentiary powers from 1942 on, to carry on the liaison between workers and soldiers, or rather to take care of the inductions of workers and soldiers, and to distribute such inductions in the various branches of industry. This allocation of what branch of industry inductions were to be made in was discussed in meetings of the Central Planning, and on these occasions a representative of Sauckel or Sauckel himself was present. Since the question of replacement had to be discussed at the same time.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1445, "page_number": "1144", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "The second category was as follows: Not that they were specific discussions of the problems concerned in the allocation of labor or the utilization of labor, but were discussions of the distribution or allocation of coal or iron, and in these discussions the subject had to be preceded by a discussion of what was really necessary to carry out the coal program for the next year in order to ascertain whether it could be carried out at all. In order that on the basis of these ascertainments the coal could be distributed during the next year, one of the requisites for the production of coal or iron was, of course, also labor forces. Consequently, in such meetings there was generally a representative of Sauckel's or Timm's and we of the Central Planning attempted to receive assurances that would enable us then to work out the distribution for the current period, for the amount of coal involved.\nRegarding this meeting of 1 March 1944 which undoubtedly played a large role in these proceedings I cannot make statements on it, since at that time I was seriously ill.\nQ.Is it however not true that in February you called a meeting?\nA.So far as I recall there was in February 1944 a meeting of the Central Planning at which I also was not present because I had been in the hospital since 10 January. This meeting had probably been prepared by the Planning Office, the Plannungsamt; do you want me to tell you what happened at that meeting?\nQ.It was a meeting concerning labor and did it have any connection with the meeting which you had with the Fuehrer in January 1944?\nA.No; that meeting had nothing to do with that previous meeting with Hitler of 4 January.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1446, "page_number": "1145", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "Q.In this meeting on 4 January did Hitler mention the number of about four million as the necessary number of workers for the coming work program?\nA.In this meeting of 4 January 1944 Hitler established a work program of four million workers, after he had asked Sauckel and myself to state the requirements. Sauckel stated the requirements in order to maintain the present status of manpower and I stated the requirements that would be necessary to carry on the expansion of our intended program.\nQ.In connection with this meeting, did you talk with Sauckel? Did you talk with Sauckel about the workers who would still have to be called with their differences, and if so, of what sort?\nA.I cannot precisely recall whether it was at this conference that I discussed with Sauckel the question of these differences of the workers to be allocated. Nevertheless it was known generally and also known to Hitler that the numbers that Sauckel stated were regarded by me as too high, as figments of his fantasy, and that Sauckel was much put out by this. The purpose of the meeting of February 1944 in the Central Planning, was to create a common basis for a common statistical appraisal. Our differences of opinion consisted in the fact that Sauckel made transfers within a factory from one sort of work to another. He called them allocated workers and reckened them as such and the manpower that he shifted from one factory to another, inside Germany, were also considered by him as allocated. In other words his statistics did not show what manpower he had drawn from the German reserve, and the occupied territories.\nQ.In the interrogation with Timms who, as you say, was a member of Sauckel's staff, Timms said more or less as follows:\nThe Central Planning wan to state -- was to collect the requirements of the people who needed workers, and to coordinate in the meeting these various requirements.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1447, "page_number": "1146", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "Can this statement be characterized as correct?\nA.This statement is not correct. It is refuted by the fact that all the verbatim minutes of those meetings -- Central Planning meetings -- are present, and that every economist can see that the Central Planning meetings -- are present, and that every economist can see that the Central Planning did not, as a regular rule, do such work. In my opinion the only meeting that could be mentioned in this context is the one of 1 March 1944.\nQ.The prosecution states that the Central Planning exerted itself much more intensively. The prosecution stated that the Central Planning concerned itself with specific and small groups of laborers in the meeting of November 1942 of the Central Planning.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1448, "page_number": "1147", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "MR. DENNEY: I object to Dr. Bergold telling the witness what we say. He can do that when he sums up. He can ask his questions, but he certainly is not entitled to stand here and say what we maintain. The Court is to judge what we maintain. Dr. Bergold can have any opinion that he wants, but this witness is here to be interrogated, not to be built up by statements of Dr. Bergold of what we have said.\nDR. BERGOLD: I was in this case agreeing with the prosecution in what it had said.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO: I would suggest, Dr. Bergold, that you, having in mind just what you wish to refute, can directly but the witness a question which will elicit the answer which you feel will be of benefit to you later on.\nQ In the meeting of 30 October 1943, that took place in your presence, the Central Planning, within the framework of the allocation of iron, discussed the use of french smelters. Why did that happen?\nA The text is familiar enough to me from my own trial, for me to be able to specify this. Smelters are trained workers who observe the smelting process and \"who are responsible for the quality of the iron. These smelters can never be more than fifty in number. There could not be more than fifty, who, of course, were of particular importance for the production.\nQ Witness, in this case Milch said the following; verbatim: I Should simply say you will receive two people for one of this sort.\" What did that mean?\nA If we are going into such things I really should prefer to see the text. ( Witness was shown the text.) Milch expressed himself very unclearly here, but the minutes are not quite complete here, which of course, is possible. I can understand him to mean, for one smelter who came from France, in this case two french prisoners of war, would be freed in Germany. That's the only explanation I can find.\nQ is it true that between the French Government and the Germans, there was an agreement, according to which, if a French worker came to Germany to work, a French prisoner of war in Germany would be freed?", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1449, "page_number": "1148", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "AI am less informed on this from personal experience than from the previous trial. As far as I know the process changed from time to time. There were several agreements of some sort or another with the French Government.\nBY JUDGE MUSMANNO: As I recall from that interrogation, I understood that you were seeking to ascertain who were smelters among the French prisoners of war in Germany, and that France was merely to give you the list of those smelters and then you could withdraw them from the prison camps; is that correct?\nA yes.\nQ That is correct?\nA Yes.\nQ You had stated just a moment ago that France was to send a smelter from France and then a prisoner of war would be released, which of course, is a little different?\nA As I said before, I am not entirely clear as to just what this text here in the minutes means. In what I said, I proceeded on the basis that they wanted to deceive the French, and in this way wanted to get from them without their really wanting to give it, the list of the smelters who were in their prison and the prisoners of war, and for this reason I cannot understand why Milch made this remark. Either Milch did not grasp what I was trying to say or he thought I meant something different from what I did mean.\nQ shat was the outcome then of this discussion with regard to the obtaining of smelters?\nA Nothing resulted. After the meeting this problem was not further discussed. To be sure, I am not entirely clear or at least donot know whether there were meetings with Sauckel or his representatives. The number involved here was so minute that I was not informed of it later, so I do not knew of it of my own experience. I cannot say then wether or not.\nQ Do you know whether the two to one suggestion was ever effectuated into practice?\nANo, I do not.", "speakers": [ "A" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1450, "page_number": "1149", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "BY DR. BERGOLD:\nQ WITNESS, in the meetings of the Central Planning, how were the various decisions reached determined?\nA In the meetings of the Central Planning a stenographer was present. Mr. Stephens, who a few days after the meeting drew up and sent to the various participants and people interested a summary of the results of the meeting.\nQ Was such a summary made for every meeting?\nA It was cur practice to draw up such a summary, but of course I do not know whether or not, perhaps, in one or two cases it was only--because in the Central Planning there were also various preparatory meetings in preparation for the final meeting.\nQ Can one say that the results of meetings are to be found in these summary reports?\nA Yes. The results of the meetings are set down there.\nQ Would these summaries also containreports on utilization of labor?\nA No. There were no particular meetings that were concerned with the utilization of labor. Of course, in the minutes of the meeting this decision or that regarding the allocation of labor would be contained, if Sauckel had given the necessary approval.\nQ I come now to the question of Sauckel. Could the Central Planning give any orders or directives to Sauckel?\nA At all times Sauckel refused to allow the Central Planning to give him orders. Also his representatives at the meetings of the Contrad Panning were not empowered to accept orders from Central Planning. If I had had the power to issue directives to Sauckel, various points of dispute between Sauckel and myself would have been decided in the Central Planning.\nQ In an interrogation that I cannot find at the moment, Sauckel stated that, on the basis of a directive of Hitler's he had had to take orders from you; is that Correct?\nA No, that is incorrect. And in the IMT trial I corrected that misapprehension.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1451, "page_number": "1150", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "Q Is it, however, correct that you first made efforts toward this with Hitler, or is that correct?\nA That is quite correct. I was because of the same situation as there was in England between Beaverbrook and Bevins at the same time. Here again, the Minister for Production asked that he have the right to give orders to the labor Minister. And in that case, as in my case, this right was refused him. There were various border spheres which were regulated by common decrees, signed by Sauckel and myself. These decrees are available but do not touch the basic problem cf the right to issue orders.\nQ Witness, can you state, the reasons why the employment of foreign laborers was undertaken?\nA I don't understand the question.\nQ I was trying to be careful so that the prosecution should have no cause to blame me. What reasons led to the employment of foreign labor?\nA Why, simply because there was not enough manpower there.\nQ What brought it about in Germany that there were too few workers available?\nA In Milch's and my opinion this was caused by an insufficient exploitation of German work reserves. In our estimation there were in Germany at least reserve manpower forces of at least three million men and women who could be employed if simply the same standards were applied to them as are applied in England and America. The precise numbers can be found in a communication of March 1944 from me to Sauckel, after I ascertained the percentage of women employed in England through reading it in the newspapers. Further, the same reserve, or the same statistics can be found if you study the minutes of a meeting that took place in June 1939 under the chairmanship of Goering, and during which Syrup of the Work Ministry gave precise statistics on the available reserve of German women who could be used in war production. Also, in this calculation of Syrup's at that time, and after and in comparison with Status of women employment in March 1944, it could be seen that we did really have at that time a reserve cf three million in Germany.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1452, "page_number": "1151", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "The reason why these German female workers were not employed lay both with Hitler and with Sauckel, who were both of the opinion that the birth rate could decline seriously as a result of employing females. There were a few other curious notions on the part of Hitler regarding the employment of females, which are to be found in a document of Sauckel's which is to be found in my document book.\nQ.If I have understood you correctly you say that the use of foreign workers could be attributed to the failure to use German reserves and to the war conditions?\nA.Could you please repeat that question?\nQ.Did I rightly understand you if I summarize your previous rather long statement that the use of foreign workers was brought about by the failure to use three million German women and because of war conditions?\nA.That is, in general, true. It is of course difficult to answer or to take such a problem from the entire context of industry. In this matter of dispute with Sauckel it was question of my embracing the point of view that these workers in Germany should be utilized and the foreign workers in the occupied territories should. be used to increase German production.\nQ.Do you know whether, from the very beginning of the war, there was a plan for using a great number of foreign forced labor?\nA.I do not know that from my own experience. From what I heard in the first trials that is, --", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1453, "page_number": "1152", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "MR DENNEY: Just a minute, until we have the end of the answer.\nA. (Con't) I do not know this of my own experience, since in my own trial, I heard of such things.\nQ.In other words, you did not know of such a plan personally beforehand, before taking up your office?\nA.No.\nQ.Do you know whether Milch wished to use foreign workers in the air industry, or whether he was against that?\nA.Milch had a very important reason for employing German workers in the air industry, for the airplanes are more susceptible to sabotage than any other product of the entire industry as a whole. For this reason, Milch continually pointed out that, in America for instance, a great part of the air industry was carried out by women. Pictures that appeared in English and American magazines were collected by us and used as an argument. These were propaganda pictures which appeared in these magazines.\nQ.Did you know or did you not know that even before you became Armaments Minister, French factories worked for the air industry in France----the time previous to 1942 is the time I am speaking of?\nA.That is not known to me personally, what program the Luftwaffe had before 1942 in France. Knowledge of the programs of the Luftwaffe in the occupied territories I received about summer or autumn of 1943 when I interested myself in the priority plants and the whole production in the occupied territories.\nQ.Was there a production program already under way at that time in France?\nA.You mean an air production?\nQ.Yes; that's what I mean.\nA.So far as I recall, the air industry had in France only production of JU-52, Junkers 52, in other words, were the only machines produced in France. This was a slow transport plane, of a speed of about 190 kilometers per hour. It was impractical to send either to France or to allocate to France or any occupied territories the production of airplanes or any other armaments because in a technical war the changes in these modern types follow so closely one on the other, that, as a matter of fact, it can only be carried out in one country.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1454, "page_number": "", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "This led to the fact that, both in the Army and in the Air 1152(a) Armaments no serious efforts were made to take up such production in the occupied territories.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1455, "page_number": "1153", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "Q.Witness, there are verbatim meetings of the Central Planning; were they checked on by any responsible person after they were expedited?\nA.No, we had no time for his, nor was it necessary for these verbatim minutes were available only to Stephans so that he could draw up his summary report of the meetings.\nQ.Did Milch, after the first meetings of the Central Planning, tell you once that he had checked through the minutes, and did he tell you what he had found out in so doing?\nA.No, I cannot recall that he did. I know only that in the case of the minutes of these verbatim meetings, he discussed them with us and did not consider them to be reliable. It was the custom in the Four-Year Plan also, and it originated with Goering and was carried out by the stenographer Stettler, and carried over by him into the Central Planning. It was, namely, the custom of taking verbatim minutes on the meetings.\nQ.Did you know that in 1943 Russian prisoners of war were to be used in antiaircraft artillery?\nA.Yes, I did.\nQ.Do you know who originated this notion?\nA.That was Goering's idea. He gave the necessary orders to General Foerster.\nQ.Was this measure agreeable to Milch?\nA.Neither Milch nor I approved of this measure, because in this was 19,000 Russian prisoners of war were to be withdrawn from war production, who were experts, and who had been trained as skilled workers. The harm that would thus be done to production, we considered not to be tolerable.\nQ.Did Milch also have or state his misgivings or doubts about the fact that these Russians were thus being obliged to fight against their allies?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1456, "page_number": "", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "A.I don't recall that he did.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:I think we'll have a little break now.\n(A recess was taken)\nBY DR. BERGOLD:\n1153(a)", "speakers": [ "A.", "JUDGE MUSMANNO" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1457, "page_number": "1154", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "Q.Witness, I shall now submit to you the record of the 33rd meeting of the Central Planning Board as it is contained in Document Book 3A of the prosecution (submitting document). From this record you will see that Milch at that time had said, \"We have ordered that Russian prisoners of war should work in anit-aircraft artillery.\" Previously, you have testified that Milch had been against the employment of such workers for that purpose. How does this expression \"We\" come about?\nA.That is something which I cannot explain exactly either. Particularly since General Foerster had previously been made an independent agency by Goering. This is something I know quite certainly since Milch was most disgusted about this fact. As for the interpretation, what Milch might have meant, \"We\", is something I can't say anything about.\nQ.Is it correct that quite frequently, when Milch was making severe criticism regarding the program, the stenographers of the record were asked either to omit it or to somewhat change it?\nA.That did happen quite often. Milch used to make severe remarks about our allies and encehe allowed such remark to slip out, he would tell the stenographer afterwards not to include such a remark in the record. I can remember, for instance, that I too, on several occasions, told the stenographer of the record, in the interest of Milch, to omit such remarks from the record.\nQ.Did it also happen that it was said that the stenographer should alter things a little?\nA.No, I cannot remember any such case or detail.\nQ.Thank you. Is it known to you that in the Central Planning Board the so-called dodger's work was discussed?\nA.Yes.\nQ.And did Central Planning do anything about these shirkers in connection with these conferences we are talking about?\nA.I only know about a remark made by me in a Central Planning Board meeting when I said that some of these slackers should be taken to a concentration camp. Following this remark, nothing particular was undertaken, which becomes apparent from the wording of the record of Central Planning.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1458, "page_number": "1155", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "Q.And now I shall turn to the Jaegerstab. What were the reasons leading to it; that the Jaegerstab was formed?\nA.In February 1944 there were concentrated air attacks by the American Air Force on the fighter aircraft works in Germany. Generally, these attacks were considered to be a preparation for an invasion. According to those officially concerned in the Central Planning Board, from the Air Ministry, March, April, May 1944, would only produce enough parts - 60% compared with the previous months. Considering this catastrophic situation, Milch defied it to visit me in the hospital and we discussed the necessity of creating an organization by means of which my ministry organization would be closely connected with the reconstruction program of these fighter factories and would be included in a responsible manner. Milch's efforts to transfer such armament works to my ministry were not approved of by Goering, and consequently, the form the Jaegerstab was chosen. Although Goering was even opposed to this decree signed by me and objected to it - perhaps \"objection\" isn't Quite the right word - shall we say, he turned against this decree.\nQ.Did the foundation of the Jaegerstab have any particular purpose with reference to Milch's person?\nA.No. No; you can't call it that, at that particular stage. You can't say that there was a particular purpose. It was merely Milch's and my own aim to bring about a solution which would serve the necessities arising from the general position and which would also, on the other hand, take care of Goering's prestige.\nQ.Is it correct that even as early as Autumn, 1943, Milch was trying to be relieved of the work of the GL?\nA.Milch and I - we were both of the opinion much earlier, as early in fact as the end of 1942, that a sharing up of production among the various branches of the armed forces was a perfectly impossible solution from the point of view of organization, and that output that supplies all branches of the armed forces would be much higher if a joint armament program would exist such as was the case with the other warfaring nations. I cannot remember that Milch put the state of his health into the foreground when we talked I can only remember that his health had suffered somewhat.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1459, "page_number": "1156", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "After he had a serious car accident near Rostow,in January or February, 1943. he said there had been a collision between his car and a locomotive.\nQ.Witness, I am having a flan submitted to you, a plan of the Jaegerstab submitted by the prosecution, which has been compiled by Mr. Sauer. Do you consider this plan to be correct?\nA.To certify the correctness of such a plan would mean some hours of work. All channels which exist are entered in it.\nQ.Are you concerned with one particular part?\nA.Yes; This plan contains Himmler's name as being a member of the Jaegerstab.\nQ.And there is mention of a Mr. Kammler. Was Himmler in that capacity or was his agency a member of the Jaegerstab?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1460, "page_number": "1157", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "ANaturally, Himmler was not a member of the Jaegerstab. Just as all other ministers who entered in this plan, with the exception of myself, were not members of the Jaegerstab. As far as the question of Kammler's activities is concerned, I shall have to speak most generally, and I think we'll have to subdivide it in individual questions.\nQWell, but first of all, I should want to know whether Kammler was a member of the Jaegerstab at all?\nAI can't tell you that on the basis of the knowledge I have whether Kammler was a member of the Jaegerstab or not. As far as I'm concerned, I called to the Jaegerstab one representative of each of my departments, totaling eight, so that there were eight representatives of those departments, working as members of the Jaegerstab. These representatives of mine had instructions at ways to give the essential instructions when there had been air attacks. Sauer, as chief of this staff, had some sort of jurisdiction, to give instructions to these representatives of my department. That was of course the initial purpose of the Jaegerstab when it was founded, I mean, a sort of agency should be created whore all the departments of my ministry, namely, buildings, transportation, etc., should be assured of supplies, of spare parts, and small parts, of raw materials, and that they should be at the disposal of those agencies who needed this potential. Naturally, it was the custom with us that the meetings, not only of the Jaegerstab, but at all other meetings there should be representatives of from other ministries in attendance. I, myself could not appoint a member of another ministry as a member of the Jaegerstab. I would quite certainly, quite definitely know if another ministry had ordered such a wish, because the matter would have had to come before me for my approval, and that is not the situation.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1461, "page_number": "", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "That is not the case.\n1157 a", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1462, "page_number": "1158", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "QWas Mr. Dorsch a member of the Jaegerstab?\nAThat is something I can't tell you in detail. Quite certainly the department for buildings had a member on the Jaegerstab; that is, a representative of Dorsch was a member of the Jaegerstab.\nQYou know, of course, of the Fuehrer Order which came to Dorsch, which ordered the construction of subterranean factories on a large scale?\nAYes. But in the case of this order given to Dorsch we're not concerned with subterranean factories, but with factories on the ground which were suitably protected.\nQWell, then, in pursuance of the carrying out of this order, did he become a member of the Jaegerstab or did he handle this task separately?\nAThis would have meant the destruction of the framework of the Jaegerstab, if a department chief from my ministry had received orders or tasks for which he was responsible anyway, if he had to carry out such tasks, with the responsi bilities of the Jaegerstab. I wouldn't have allowed that as a matter of principle, because in that manner the Jaegerstab would have become a ministry. In that way, the situation naturally was that Sauer had a certain amount of ambition in this sector, and that he was always trying to make more of a small ministry out of the Jaegerstab and I had to curtail his ambition quite a lot.\nQWhere did the suggestion originate to construct subterranean factories or factories protected by concrete?\nAIn September or October, 1943, there were the first large scale and daylight attacks of the American Air Fleet. After these attacks, Hitler and Goering too, had given instructions to the effect that the aircraft industry should go below ground, in other words, should be protected from bombing. These instructions of Goering and of Hitler, met with Milch's and my resistance for practical reasons.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1463, "page_number": "1159", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "We considered that it was too late to go below ground since the realization of such a program would have occupied a total of one and a half to two years; we were there concerned with one million square meters of territory which would have then had to go under the ground, and also, we considered that the tremendous amount of material, such as iron, copper, for cables, etc., would have been uselessly expanded, in our opinion, because, or rather, there was a third point, namely, that in the event of a completion of a subterranean factory, there would have been loss of production during four to six months caused by the move of that factory from its old site to the new. We were quite clear about the fact, and discussed it quite often, that the year of 1944 would have to bring the decision in the war, and that it therefore would be more appropriate towards the end of 1943 and also for the year 1944, a reaping should be used in order to produce as much as possible with existing means, and not under any circumstances develop projects with a distant future, such as one or two years would be. After Goering discovered that these transfers to subterranean sites ordered by him had been carried out with sufficient intensity and energy, he made serious reproaches to Milch towards the end of 1943 and he told the chief of the Air Construction Department, TreiTreiber, independently from Milch, to carry out such transfers into these subterranean locations. I can not now remember exactly whether Treiber was the Chief of the Aircraft Construction Department or the Deputy Chief. There wore two rather excited discussions with Hitler too about this subterranean building program during which I presented my practical point of view, and made it very clear, and during one such discussion between Colonel von Below was present, which incidentally also took place in November, 1943.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1464, "page_number": "", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "It was Hitler's plan to construct large bomb protected factories above the ground, following the sample of the well-known submarine pens on the Atlantic 1159 a Coast, and in spite of my objections, he had given me a strict order in this connection, an order which of course I had to receive, but Milch and I didn't show any great interest in the carrying out of this wasteful plan.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1465, "page_number": "1160", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "During my illness, Hitler used, shall we say, this opportunity in order to get hold of Mr. Dorsch directly, and to give him the order directly, to build six large fighter factories above the ground, each covering 100,000 square meters. Dorsch promised them in a period of six months, something which he could hardly accomplish. I heard about this during my illness, and I turned against it with all my energy. I needn't repeat the old circumstances since they have come to light during my own trial. At any rate, this letter that Hitler related to me, in which he informed that Dorsch had been given this order by him, Hitler, to construct these six factories, and that I was to supply the materials and equipment needed for this purpose. Labor, incidentally, was not mentioned in this decree. I think the decree, as such, was contained in my document book. The second subject running separately from this first one, was due more to Goering's initiative, and that was subject to the so-called subterranean factories; the grotto construction, and in the case of this grotto construction program, Goering , toward the end of February or the beginning of March, published a decree which had been signed by him, and through which Kammler, from the SS, received the order to employ 100,000 workers from concentration camps for the purpose of constructing grottos, and the reason why I can remember this decree so well is because it was stated there in that Kammler had the right to confiscate material on every building side in Germany in order to carry out this decree, which of course would mean complete cancellation of the applicable order in Germany, the order of the building world, I mean.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1466, "page_number": "", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "Milch came to see me at that time in the hospital, with reference to the Jaegerstab, and it it was on the same day that, much to my surprise, this decree 1160 a of Goering arrived.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1467, "page_number": "1161", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "Milch told me at the time that he had nothing of the wording of this decree, and he spoke very seriously about consequences of this decree, which were quite obvious, since the threat, through air attacks, had become so considerable at the time that any inference from a third force regarding a disposition of building material and equipment would impede seriously the speedy construction of damaged factories and make it impossible.\nQ.Then what did the Jaegerstab have to do with these two plans ordered partly by Hitler and partly by Goering? -- these construction plans? Did it particularly have to have the right of supervision over them?\nA.I must say that I can't give you an answer in too precise a manner, since I myself never presided over a single meeting of Jaegerstab, but I do, very naturally, from the meetings and discussions which Faber had in my office, just what the contents of the activities of the Jaegerstab must have been. In the case of these factories, it was, of course, essential that a plan should be carried out which meant that first of all it had to be ascertained what was being produced in individual factories, and whether the German railway would be capable of bringing up the essential materials necessary for the production period and also it was necessary to decide the firms which would move into these factories. Once this part of work was completed, it was then the individual task of the offices of the Central Planning Board to ascertain together with the management of the construction site, how the entire layout of the factory had to be decided on.\nQ.Did I understand you correctly. Did you say that supervision over the individual construction plant did not exist for the Jaegerstab?\nA.Supervision regarding construction programs, the carrying out of that particular construction, was of course not in the hands of the Jaegerstab.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1468, "page_number": "1162", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "Q.Is your answer meant to say, therefore, that it was only the use of these construction sites which the Jaegerstab had to decide about, once they were completed?\nA.Well, you can't say it exactly like that. If there was a hollow in the ground, a grotto, then that grotto was marked as far as its size was concerned, arid then one had to find that part of the production program which could be fitted into that space, which of course was the sort of task which had to be dealt with by the Jaegerstab. But I wouldn't even say directly by the Jaegerstab. I would say there was a small planning office in the technical department which was headed by a certain Wegener.\nQ.I shall now turn to a number of individual questions. Were these subterranean factories constructed? Were these subterranean factories actually constructed?\nA.Of all these subterranean factories only a very small proportion was started. As far as construction was concerned, practically \"nothing was finished -- only a few thousand square meters. As far as the buildings, the factories which were built on the ground, four were begun, a few months later two were put out of action because of the general position, and the remainder was not completed either.\nQ.I understood you to say that Hitler took advantage of your illness that is to say, that Hitler issued an order regarding the subterranean factories. Do I understand you to say that Hitler feared your opposition and wouldn't make the order while you were still in charge?\nA.In this case of the order of Hitler's, we were concerned with the factories on the ground, not subterranean factories. Hitler's order only applied to factories above ground, whereas Goering's order applied to subterranean factories in grottos. If I am to say this quite openly, then the situation was that one of my associates used this opportunity to gain, shall we say, some prestige, a move which I myself would never have made, something, of course, which happens quite often.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1469, "page_number": "1163", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "These promises, then, gave him a particularly good reputation, which resulted in his acquiring for himself this order, this instruction. I considered this a demonstration of distrust against myself, and after a lot of going to and fro, the trouble was eliminated but the issuing of the order to Mr. Dorsch was not rescinded by Hitler.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1470, "page_number": "1164", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "QAs far as the Arbeitseinsatz is concerned -- the labor program was the plenipotentiary for labor responsible for that or not?\nAAs far as the supplying of labor was concerned, of course, the plenipotentiary for labor was responsible.\nQAnd is it correct to say that both through a Goering as well as through a Hitler decree, he was designated as the sole responsible force for that?\nAYes. Both decrees are sufficiently well known, I think.\nQCan you speak about these organizations of the Plenipotentiary for Labor which he used for the carrying out of this task of his?\nANot throu ,h any knowledge of my own obtained through the trial period. I can only speak about it from knowledge obtained through the trial here -- during the trial here. I myself, only had contact with Timm and Hildebrandt apart from my contact with Sauckel, of course.\nQWas Sauckel responsible for recruiting foreign workers abroad, or who was responsible for that?\nAThat is a debatable question which I, myself, can't give you a verdict on. At the time, Sauckel was very much under the impression to a considerable extent that he, himself, was possibly known and that military commanders had to obey his orders. But there was always an argument against this conception; at any rate, I cannot answer this question here because this might turn into a plea for or against Sauckel, of course.\nQWas Milch responsible for recruiting laborers abroad?\nANo.\nQHow was this work done by these foreign laborers -- the output, was it good or was it bad?\nAAccording to what we heard, it was good.\nQWhat about the work done by prisoners of war; a, French; and b, the Russian prisoners of war?\nARegarding the output of prisoners of war, we had quite a lot of complaints stating that they were worse; but to make differences between Russians and French would be impossible for me here in detail.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1471, "page_number": "1165", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "QThe instructions regarding the employment and treatment of foreign workers before your coming into office as a minister, are they known to you?\nANo, not from knowledge obtained at that time.\nQDid you have any possibilities to check secret orders of Himmler regarding the treatment of foreign workers or treatment of concentration camp inmates and get to know them?\nANo, that was quite out of the question.\nQWas that out of the question for anyone or just for you; in other words, what about Milch?\nAWell, it's safe to assume that he had no more possibility to get any facts than I had.\nQDid Rosenberg give you any information regarding the treatment of Eastern workers?\nANo.\nQWhat do you know about the question of what and of how and to what extent the foreign workers came to Germany voluntarily?\nAFrom the Spring until theAutumn of 1942, foreign laborers came to Germany voluntarily, without any doubt. From Autumn till Spring -from Autumn '42 to 1943, we were concerned with a period of transition. During that time, workers did come voluntarily because Germany's military successes were still making a great impression on them and because Germany, during that period, was promising them a better life than their own home country. These were the reasons which we were told about at that particular period. In February and March 1943; there was a distinct change in the attitude of these people which could be attributed to the fact that, to begin with, Stalingrad was considered to be a turning point in the war; and secondly, the air attacks taking place nightly by the RAF-- the Royal Air Force -- were so concentrated that they weren't particularly keen in coming to Germany. So that on February and March 1943 on, and to an ever increasing degree, there was resistance against transfer to Germany by the worker. This led to, in turn, that in the occupied territories there Court No. 2 Take 2 (DJG) was considerable disquiet when Sauckel was calling up particular groups.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1472, "page_number": "1166", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "It was characteristic for Sauckel to operate with large figures and to compose big programs, and to call up, quite generously in France, anything up to three or four or five age groups. This had the consequence for me that the age groups which had been called up did not comply with the call-up, but their majority disappeared from factories abroad; whereas, Sauckel, on the other hand, was not in any position to lay a hand upon these workers. For this purpose, he would have to have had the help of the police authorities in France, which of course were not particularly interested in catching up with these workers. Through this, in both Milch's and my own opinion, the resistance movements in the different countries were rendered a most tremendous service in this matter. We told Sauckel quite openly that he was only going to get into a meddle with the leaders of the resistance movements abroad, but certainly not with us, and in his excitement, Sauckel actually complained about this remark in the meeting which, I think, was on the first of March 1944 of the Central Planning Board. The results were, in fact, such that the disadvantages which ensued for us in occupied territories in relation to production, with which both Milch and I were concerned with, were greater than the advantages put to use by workers who came to Germany; and thus we drew attention to the workers still available in Germany, which in turn, produced a plan according to which occupied territories would have their production increased. Incidentally, in keeping with the character of the country concerned which needed no groat reorganization of consumer goods mostly, and that with the help of these workers and by means of this transfer to France, Belgium, Holland and Czechoslovakia, German production should be made free -- available -- and that this German production could then be stopped so that in Germany, not only workers, but also factory space should become available; and apart from the factory space, men would be trained as leaders for these factories. Apart from this, power which had become very scarce in Germany at that time and transport possibilities too, could be transferred to the armament program in occupied territories; on the other hand, production, beginning with coal, might be increased by 20 to 30 percent without having reached a peace-time peak figure.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1473, "page_number": "1167", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "It is perfectly clear that from my own point of view, this was a perfectly sober plan which brought great advantages to Milch and myself; and in order to be able to carry this out, I had the entire production handed ever to me by Funk. A few days later, there was a conference with the French production minister, Michelon , during which this program was agreed upon by means of a handshake. This program produced the so-called blocked industries, Sperrbetriebe, and in every one of these blocked industries, there was a poster displayed which had my signature on it stating that every worker employed in such factories was safe from becoming transferred to Germany, even if the age group concerned was called up by Sauckel.\nQIs it known to you that the French government published a decree dealing with labor service in Germany to men in France?\nAYes, I know that.\nQNow about this calling up by age groups by Sauckel, were they carried out on the strength of that decree or was there another decree applicable?\nAThat I can't tell you in detail. You'd have to ask Timm.\nQThrough what channel did you hear that in the Fall of 1943 workers became reluctant about coming to Germany?\nAWell, that I cannot tell you now by memory. That must have come from all sorts of sources.\nMay I add that in principle, it was through military commanders who were mostly concerned about the consequences of Sauckel's labor policy and opposed it.\nQDid these military commanders have any official contact with you?\nANo, and it certainly wasn't directly from these military commanders that I heard it. It was through my outside agencies in France and Belgium who naturally were in contact and collaborated with military commanders.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1474, "page_number": "", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "QDid you hear through this or any other channel about inhumane 1167A acts in connection with the recruitment and signing up of such foreign workers?", "speakers": [ "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1475, "page_number": "1168", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "ANo, I didn't receive reports. There were always attempts to turn the draft, which was nothing other than a call-up, into an act or force of coercion; but, the carrying through of such attempts was always prevented by military commanders because such actions produced the most tremendous upset in the country concerned. If such apprehension was avoided, then excesses were usually mentioned which had actually happened, but they wore always described as individual cases which had always been stopped.\nQThen I can say, if I understood you correctly, that the drafting of an age group did not mean the call-up -- the unavoidable call-up-for that age group?\nABecause the definition of the word \"force\" or \"coercion\" is a very difficult one. It was always put to me during interrogations that these workers were brought to Germany against their will, and I found that it was an excellent definition. That settled the question correctly -- the question of draft and call-up. The conception of force, of course goes beyond that quite a bit. I consider that the employment of force means that they were gotten hold of by the police or gotten hold of by the military authorities, and then they would remain behind barbed wires when they got to Germany. That, in my firm opinion, was not the situation in the labor assignment program.\nQDo you know of a statement of Sauckel's, according to which, out of five million workers, only about two hundred thousand came to Germany voluntarily? That is true, isn't it?\nAWell, I only heard about it at the trial here because I happened to be present.\nQConsidering your knowledge of the situation, are you of the opinion that the statement is true or not?\nAThe figure of two hundred thousand appears to me to be a very low one; but now the question arises, of course -- or let's put it this way.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1476, "page_number": "1169", "date": "02 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-02", "text": "It seemed very low to me because up to the Spring of '43, a very large percentage came voluntarily. Naturally one can well imagine that a number of these people who came voluntarily had later returned again to their old territories since their contracts did not run for an indefinite time, but were limited to a certain period; and some of these contracts certainly had ended by March 1944 so that the very portion who had come voluntarily at the beginning had long gone back to their home countries. Naturally, I can't tell you, from my own knowledge, whether the figure is correct or not.\nQ.But then, Sauckel went on to say, in this meeting, that never once had there been a labor program carried out in France based on voluntary recruitment. Is that statement correct?\nA.I cannot recollect that this was ever mentioned at a meeting.\nQ.Unfortunately, I haven't got the document yet. It was only on Saturday that I received records of the 45th Meeting. But I hope that after the lunch break, I will be in a position to put this record before you. Maybe we can put the question aside until then.\nA.Well, anyway, I shall not be able to answer the question on the strength of my own knowledge since it is not known to me which contracts were made by Sauckel, individually speaking. The details which would be essential to gain such knowledge are not at my disposal.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1477, "page_number": "1170", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "Naturally, apart from the draft for labor for individual age groups, there was always the possibility of coming to Germany on a voluntary basis. I had always assumed -- but, of course, this may be only an assumption-- that during the early period until Spring '43 voluntary conclusion of a contract had been used extensively for work in Germany, which I stated previously.\nQ.Is it known to you that there had been an agreement -- I have asked you that before -- according to which a prisoner of war could be released if a French worker declared, his willingness to go to Germany?\nA.I think I have answered that, haven't I?\nQ.I am not quite sure as to whether it has been answered or not.\nA.Yes, I have answered it.\nQ.Thank you very much.\nBY JUDGE MUSMANNO:\nQ.Herr Speer, you said that force was not in the labor program. You mean by that that you didn't actually outline a system of force --physical force -- to be employed in the obtaining of these foreigners but do you know whether, as a matter of fact, that force in some instances was employed?\nA.Surely, and certainly, attempted force must have been in existence, force against such laborers who did not report to the authorities because of the draft law, so that in individual cases, quite certainly force must have been employed; but it is unknown to me just what percentage has been recruited by means of such coercion or force because the agencies which were available for this purpose -- in other words, their own police -- no doubt failed to carry out such force. It didn't carry out the orders to employ such force -- orders which came from the French Government. I don't know whether this would answer your question, sir.\nA.Yes, that answers my question.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1478, "page_number": "", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "BY DR. BERGOLD:\nQ.Witness, do you know that force was employed? Did you know that then or had you only learned that later or now?\nA.In this sense, as I have just stated now, I must say that I knew it then. Only the examples which are being mentioned here so often: the surrounding 1170-A of the cinema, for instance; raids of churches, and all that sort of thing -- those are matters which have only become known to me to that extent right here.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1479, "page_number": "1171", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "From the point of view of production, of course, this was absolutely nonsensical, because if one had extended that system, laborers would have been gotten who would have been incapable of producing any considerable production. And apart from the positive outcome, that matter would have served the resistance movement once again.\nQ.Witness, do you know of an order by Hitler dated 1941 or '42, according to which, upon the evacuation of certain territories in Russia, male population between their 15th and 60th year should have been taken tack by military authorities?\nA.No, I do not know of any such order. No doubt, Hitler often made such statements saying that sort of thing was necessary, but anyone who knew about our retreats knew that such a plan could not have been carried out since the troops were happy if they could manage to come back alive. Not even Russian prisoners of war could be brought back; not even for that did we have time and possibilities.\nQ.Witness, previously you stated that you consider Sauckel's statements of figures incorrect. What was the opinion about these figures?\nA.We shared the opinion that they were considerably exaggerated. If I may add as a detail, let me say that, for instance, according to Sauckel's report he said that during nine months 60 or 75 percent of all workers in the army rearmament program had been replaced by him, which was an impossibility in practice. There wasn't the capacity to train even a fraction of these people. It would have meant an absolute catastrophe to the rearmament program if I had had more than 50 percent of new workers, but such a report had to be passed on to Sauckel and, of course, we didn't exactly fall in love with it.\nQ.Can you tell me what the air armament situation was? I wish to withdraw a question. That is the wrong question. Do you know if Milch encountered difficulties when he tried to carry out suitable air armament programs from Goering or any other people concerned in such a matter?\nA.I know an awful lot about that. I think I could make a speech lasting for several hours about that.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1480, "page_number": "1172", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "Q.I just want to know one or two details. What were the leading difficulties which he ran into?\nA.Well, in the main, the reason was that Milch, from the summer of 1942 onwards, desired reorganization of the entire air construction program in favor of the fighters, whereas Hitler, Goering, and also the Chief of the General Staff were interested in bomber aircraft and adhered to that plan. This argument continued until March 1944. And even as late as March '44 we had a mixed program for bombers and fighters which, considering the situation, could not by any means be justified; and it was only during the meeting at the Obersalzberg when Sauer and Milch were present that Hitler recognized the fact that fighters should have priority over bombers and that the bomber production should be stopped, but even that only lasted for a brief period. Six or eight weeks later, in June or July 1944, Goering and Hitler were once again so optimistic that they withdrew their decision -- this earlier decision -- and once again ordered bomber production to come into effect.\nQ.So that it would be right to say that Milch objected to too large a bomber force during the entire period when you collaborated with him?\nA.That is obvious. It's the result of the general decision which in turn was due to the superior strength of the foreign aircraft production.\nQ.In one of the records -- in one of the minutes of the meetings -- Milch is suggesting that foreign workers should be given a premium of one mark a day if they made particularly great efforts. For the economic situation in Germany at that time was that a lot or was it a little?\nA.That certainly wasn't very much - one mark a day - but it was a temptation for a worker. But as far as I can remember, there was something connected with this action; namely, that workers, together with this bonus, should be enabled to actually buy something in the canteens at their work, and that was an important point because the situation,even at that time, was such that everyone had enough money which one couldn't transfer into goods.\nQ.Did any instructions originating from Milch become known to you Court No. 2 - Take 2 (GES) -- instructions given to subordinates of his or given to the industry, according to which he advocated murder or hanging or shooting or cruelties against foreign workers or prisoners of war?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1481, "page_number": "1173", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "A.No.\nQ.Considering your knowledge of Milch's character, would you consider such an order a probability?\nA.I do not consider it a probability but I do consider it probable that at one time or another he may have made a remark, typical for Milch. Milch, you see, was a little choleric and very outspoken, but if he did speak severely, then according to my recollection it was usually directed against someone present at the meeting, particularly people from his own ministry who were working directly with him and who were told that if they didn't meet with his requirements then they'd be put before court martial.\nQ.Was Milch well-known for making severe statements?\nA.Yes, he was very well-known for that.\nQ.Did anyone take these outspoken comments of his seriously?\nA.Well, they were taken seriously in as far as one knew that Milch's patience had come to an end, but I do recall that at the end of these meetings Milch somehow or other made up with the people in question, because it was his own impression that he had gone too far in the manner with which he expressed himself in the meeting.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:Will this be a convenient time to break off? I might indicate that our program for this afternoon will be like this: we will reconvene at one-thirty and carry through to about three--fifteen. Then, I have an appointment which will keep me occupied until four o'clock and if we have not finished by three-fifteen we will return at four o'clock. If it is convenient to Mr. Denney and to you, we will then carry on until we finish the job because I think we will want to finish it today.\nDR. BERGOLD:Mr. President, I have only got one request. By an order of the Tribunal I may speak to Milch in the interval, but I shall have to eat. Therefore, may I ask not to reconvene at one--thirty Court No. 2- Take 3 (GES) but at one-forty-five in order for me to have time to converse with Milch briefly.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "JUDGE MUSMANNO" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1482, "page_number": "", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "JUDGE MUSMANNO:That is entirely satisfactory. We will then give you 1173-a Court No. 2 - Take 2 - MN enough time.", "speakers": [ "JUDGE MUSMANNO" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1483, "page_number": "1174", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "DR. BERGOLD:Yes sir, that will give me plenty of time. Thank you.\n( A recess was taken until 1345 hours)", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1484, "page_number": "1175", "date": "02 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-02", "text": "AFTERNOON SESSION\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:You may proceed, Dr. Bergold.\nBY DR. BERGOLD:\nQ.Witness, in this morning's session you mentioned the severe utterances of Milch. Do you know whether after having made such severe utterances he also took the correspond ing measures as regards courts martial and that the decree for death sentences was carried through?\nA.From my own knowledge I cannot say so. In the Luftwaffe a few court martial trials were carried through industrialists. I remember one case, but I do not believe it will be of interest to you. However, in my opinion that case was absolutely justified.\nQ.Who ordered the trial? Don't you know, or do you Know?\nA.In the criminal law procedure, I have too little experience. There were actual infractions of law. For instance a works manager built for himself a private shelter out of material which had been made available for war purposes.\nQ.Thank you. Did Milch bring anyone into a concentration camp as far as you know?\nA.Not according to my knowledge.\nQ.Did the Jaegerstab itself recruit foreign workers in the occupied territories?\nA.No. It could not do it because it had no executive agencies for it.\nQ.At one time the Central Planning Board made a special steel contingent available to the Jaegerstab, especially sheet steel. Were they intended for airplane construction for OT construction, for the SS etc.?\nA.I cannot say that from these statements because sheet steel was also used in the construction of air planes, for the protection of the pilots against munition, when he was shot at.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "BY DR. BERGOLD", "JUDGE MUSMANNO" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1485, "page_number": "", "date": "02 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-02", "text": "Also, during the last phase of the war, airplanes were built from light-weight sheet steel.\nQ.Was Milch a member of the Jaegerstab?\n1175 - a Court No. 3 - Take 3 (GES)", "speakers": [ "Q." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1486, "page_number": "1176", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "A.That, too, I cannot answer correctly. In any case, he had a direct representative in the Jaegerstab until the time of his resignation from the Ministry in April of 1944.\nQ.Who established the building program for the air industry in the early part of the war?.\nA.Various phases should be distinguished there. From September, 1939, on I placed my organization which was concerned with new constructions in Nurnberg and Berlin at the disposal of air armament. In the course of time this staff carried out construction work for air armament in an increasing measure so that in the year 1941 one may perhaps say that the new construction for air armament were in most pant carried out by my organization. Do you want a further development of it?\nQ.No. I am now placing before you the minutes of the meeting of 27 April 1942 of the Central Planning Board which is contained in document book number 33 of the English book. At this meeting, it was discussed that Sauckel should have am influence on the Stalag. I now ask you to note the reply of Milch in regard to this desire of Sauckel. I shall ask you a question relative to it.\nI ask you to tell me whether that suggestion on the part of Milch was a serious one or what other opinion you have about it.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:In the minutes was there a reference which would indicate what this suggestion consisted of?\nDR. BERGOLD:A suggestion to the effect that the Stalag should come under the supervision of Sauckel. Thereupon, he declared he has no people.\n\"MILCH: Then they must be put into uniform.\"\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:I did not know that you made reference to the preceding question.\nQ.Which meeting is it? The 32nd one?\nA.It does not say anything on it. Date 30 October 1942.\nQ.There is no number on it. Date 30 October, 1942. The 21st meeting.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "JUDGE MUSMANNO" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1487, "page_number": "1177", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "Court No. 2 - take 3 (GES)\nA.I may call to your attention the following: This may also involve an error in that only one page of the meeting of 30 October 1942 is involved, but then there is one other -\nThis remark of Milch I understand to mean that he wanted to have an immediate channel of authority for Sauckel direct to the Stalag. Well, it should be clear to him that that was not possible, Stalag being a purely military organization to be under Sauckel's direct order. That is one of the typical examples of the language used in such a meeting where one does not weigh very carefully every single word. I believe, therefore, that anyone who reads minutes of such a meeting covering 70 or 80 pages comes to the conclusion that many remarks are contained therein which do not really make very much senses.\nQ.As regards Sauckel's statements on the question of workers, did Hitler place more confidence in you or in Sauckel?\nA.I am sorry that unfortunately he placed more in Sauckel. Sauckel not only exerted a great influence on him, but Sauckel's line was at the same time the inner line of Hitler himself.\nQ.Did not Hitler himself on the basis of the statements made by Sauckel in figures criticize you because you did not produce as much as would be justified in view of the number of workers which Sauckel had allegedly made available to you?\nA.Frankly speaking, I do not quite understand the question.\nQ.I repeat.\nA.Would you formulate the question differently?\nQ.Did Hitler declare to you you should be able to produce much more in your sector because you had the great number of workers which Sauckel had reported?\nA.That is correct, but not without qualification. The most important bottleneck with which we had to contend was that of raw materials and individual parts which had to be delivered. An increase in armament depended on it.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1488, "page_number": "1178", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "Take 3\nQIs it correct that in your differences of opinion with Sauckel Milch asked repeatedly to assist you?\nAThat is correct.\nQIn your discussions with Hitler did you prepare Fuehrer Meeting Minutes? To whom did you send copies of the minutes?\nAIn principle these minutes were not sent to anybody.After the meeting, I dictated the minutes from memory and then they went to the Central Office. The Central Office then decided to whom letters were to be written on individual points, in the form of extracts from the minutes.\nQIs it correct that on the periphery of the minutes on the Fuehrer meetings, notations were always made on the different agencies to whom copies were to be sent -- these remarks?\nAYes.\nQIn the minutes of a Fuehrer meeting of 29 September 1942, it is stated: \"Fuehrer's attention called to the fact that armament production in concentration camps impossible.\" Instead three to five per cent of the weapons produced by them should be made available to the SS Divisions. What did your armament have to do with this concentration camp production?\nAThat is not the correct working if I may say so. May I have the original text?\nQYes.\nAIf you do not find it, we shall continue, it is not so important.\nQFor the time being, I will withdraw my question. Perhaps I may put it this way: Did you know that Himmler was planning on armament production in concentration camps?\nAThe minutes of September, 1942, say that Himmler wanted to erect armament factories in his concentration camps and my counterproposal which had been approved by Hitler was to erect small camps in the vicinity of factories already existing and to put the workers to work there. This was in order to eliminate Himmler's influence on the Take 3 armament program.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1489, "page_number": "1179", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "The sentences which you quoted, are a few sentences only which do not give the context. In my opinion that is clearly shown from the text.\nQWas Milch present during that discussion?\nAIt might be presumed but from recollection, I cannot tell.\nQThat should be shown by the minutes.\nANo. Not necessarily.\nQDo you know whether Milch went from Goering to Hitler without permission?\nAGoering did not like Milch to go to Hitler. In the beginning of the existence of the Central Planning Board, I took Milch to see Hitler once or twice and thereupon, an order came out along that line. The word \"order\" is perhaps too strong in my opinion.\nQDuring the time when you were sick, Milch was once expected to give a report to Hitler on the general situation for the Central Planning Board. What does the idea \"general situation\" mean in this connection?\nAAlso during my sickness, a meeting took place in the Central Planning Board on the subject of building projects of long-range character in order to determine that we had already released by far too many structures of a long-range character. That is connected with what I said this morning. We thereby wanted to show to Hitler and Goering at the same time that an additional burden on the building industry with building projects of a long-range character was an impossibility. The result of the meeting was that the constructions which were released represented a building period of three to four years.\nQAside from this occurrence, was Milch at any time your deputy on building questions.\nANo. He also was not a representative in building questions along that line because that was a task for the Central Planning Board to eliminate if necessary construction work of a long-range character.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1490, "page_number": "1180", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "Take 3 My task as a General Plenipotentiary of the Building Industry only asked for me to determine that these building projects of long-range character had assumed proportions for which responsibility could not be taken.\nQThank you. Is it known to you that in the year 1943 or 1944, I do know which it is exactly at this moment, that Milch criticized Hitler because he had asked for the building of a new Fuehrer headquarters in Silesia, a quantity of cement equal to that which had been made available for the population for the construction of air raid shelters?\nAThat is correct.\nQDo you know that it was customary in a ministry in Germany to write a letter in the \"I\" style of the Minister even if the letter was written by an office such as the Chief of Office of a Minister?\nAThat was customary, but not in my Ministry.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:How would you know the practice?\nTHE WITNESS:Because I was often amazed and could not understand why letters of subordinates were written on letterheads of the Minister and written in \"I\" style. I asked the Chief of the Central Office. He said it was an old established practice. I thought it so ridiculous, I discontinued the practice.\nBY DR. BERGOLD:\nQI now refer to the aspirations of Milch to resign from his offices. Do you know when General Milch resigned as Generalluftzeugmeister or when he was made to resign?\nAMilch gave up his position as State Secretary in theAir Ministry and as Generalluftzeugmeister officially on August 1, 1944. However, practically he no longer occupied and exerted his duties beginning with the day when the transfer of air armament to my Ministry had been ordered by Goering. From that time on he merely occupied himself with the involved in transferring.", "speakers": [ "THE WITNESS", "JUDGE MUSMANNO", "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1491, "page_number": "1181", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "Take 4\nQWhich were the reasons for Milch's resignation?\nAYes. I simply prefer to formulate it differently. There was unanimity of opinion between Milch and myself on the fact that the Air Armament was to come to me. After Air Armament came to me, there was no task left for Milch in the Air Ministry because it was one of the essential tasks left there. In addition, Goering, it is told, at that time also demanded that on this occasion Milch would withdraw from the Luftwaffe Ministry and from the Service as such altogether.\nQDo you know if at the time the relationship between Goering and Milch was a bad one?\nAThe relationship between Goering and Milch was known to me from 1942 on as a bad one. Goering did not like to have in his surroundings collaborators who were very strong. He liked it much more to have people who were harmless like Koerner who was the permanent representative of the four-year plan, and Milch was the type of very intelligent and very capable collaborator who, of course, on the other hand, was not so easy to direct as Goering wanted him to be.\nQYes. Please go ahead.\nAWell, furthermore, Goering did not trust the close cooperation with Milch. He asked Milch lots of times to keep a certain distance, which, of course in the sense of the war necessities and tasks would have been a mistake.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1492, "page_number": "1182", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "Q.Do you know of attempts of Goering at the time to start a trial against Milch because he failed in certain fields?\nA.No. Unfortunately I do not know it in that way.\nQ.Is it known to you that Milch in the beginning of 1943 explained to Hitler very clearly that the war was over and lost?\nA.Yes, indeed. I was not present at that particular meeting. However, Milch told me a few days later that he visited Hitler in order to talk about his work at Stalingrad, and during that particular occasion he told him the impressions he had, and he informed him that the war was lost. Thereupon, according to what Milch says, Hitler is to have been very nervous and he interrupted the conversation light away.\nQ.Is it known to you that Milch was a decisive enemy in the war against Russia?\nA.No, I did not know that because at that time when I was connected with Milch the war was almost over.\nQ.Is it known to you that Milch proposed to Hitler to sign a peace term with the six states, with the occupied territories?\nA.Such plans occurred from time to time and they were discussed. I know that Milch was one of the men who was for such plans; I mean he did that with Hitler.\nJUDGE MUSSMANO:I would propose, Dr. Bergold, that when you refer to any particular episode if the date is not obvious that you supply at least an approximate date so that we can place it in the chronology of events.\nDR. BERGOLD:This also was around 1943. That was in connection with the declaration that the war was lost.\nTHE WITNESS:That's correct.\nBY DR. BERGOLD:\nQIs it known to you that Hitler considered Milch a State enemy towards the end of the war?\nA.In February, 1945, I wanted to make Milch my deputy in that particular staff which had been organized at that, time, The Traffic Staff.", "speakers": [ "THE WITNESS", "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "JUDGE MUSSMANO", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1493, "page_number": "", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "Hitler thereupon called me to his headquarters in order to tell me that Milch should in no case be allowed any influence in that particular form and shape.\n1182(a) Thereupon I told Hitler that I wanted to know the reasons for his remark, whereupon Hitler did not tell me the reasons.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1494, "page_number": "1183", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "He told me that he himself had certain material from Kaltenbrunner and that material would absolutely suffice; that, furthermore, Milch should not have such a task or should not execute such a task.\nQ.Did you warn Milch of Kaltenbrunner and Hitler?\nA.Yes, I did, of course.\nQ.After Milch's resignation from the Air Ministry, you asked for a deputy. Why did you do that?\nA.In June of 1944 Milch became my constant deputy in the Ministry because Goering asked that Milch resign from the Aviation Ministry, and I did not want Milch to have such a loss of prestige towards the outside, in which position he finally arrived when Milch resigned from his position in those offices, and I didn't want to have that because Milch during the previous years was very loyal towards me on all friction points which occurred from the confidence, and he avoided those points.\nQ.Why didn't you want him to be without employment, I mean without office?\nA.Yes, without office, because Milch would have been subdued to the attacks of Goering would he not have had a certain job some place or a certain office.\nQ.In other words, it was a sort of protective measures of yours, wasn't it?\nA.Yes. It appeared important to me that Milch be protected in that particular way although there were no particular symptoms for that.\nQ.Did he ever appear practically in that particular position?\nA.No. When the announcement of his steady deputy was known, I said the same time that my chiefs of offices were to carry on their duties immediately with me. That is, in other words, directly with me, which in itself meant that Milch was not a steady deputy, a constant deputy.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1495, "page_number": "", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "I remark this particular passage because Milch came to see me after the particular discussion and told me that I shouldn't have put him in such a bad light.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:After your conversation with Hitler regarding him, did you take him into your confidence?\nTHE WITNESS:I am afraid I didn't quite understand that question.\n1183(a) Court No. 2 - Take 4 (BK) Will you repeat it, please?", "speakers": [ "THE WITNESS", "JUDGE MUSMANNO" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1496, "page_number": "1184", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "JUDGE MUSMANNO:You related earlier how Hitler had spoken to you regarding Milch. Was Milch at that time already your deputy?\nTHE WITNESS:Yes.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:And the phrase \"state enemy\" was used. Now just what do you mean by that phrase?\nTHE WITNESS:I did not use the word \"state enemy\".\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:Well, it came through the microphone, through the earphone.\nTHE WITNESS:Well, the word \"state fine\" was not used during this discussion.\nJUDGEMUSMANNO: \"State enemy\", was that expression not used?\nDR. BERGOLD:No. That was only the way I used it. In Germany people against the regime were called \"state enemies\".\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:Well, did Hitler so regard Milch?\nTHE WITNESS:No, he didn't show that. In other words, he didn't tell me the reasons for feeling that way towards Milch but he was against Milch. He was sort of prejudiced against Milch.\nBY DR. BERGOLD:\nQNow, the last question, Mr. witness. Is it correct that your Chief of Office, Sauer, concerning the Traffic Staff meeting reported to Goering personally and not to Milch?\nAThat is absolutely correct and I am sure that Brauchitsch, who was Goering's adjutant, could confirm that because for the greatest part it happened during my sickness. Sauer at that particular time knew or succeeded in being considered by both Hitler and Goering so that the conferences or sessions which took place with Goering Court No. 2 - Take 4 (BK) concerning the activities of the Jaegerstab or the Fighter Staff often took place without the participation or invitation of Milch, which, of course, put Milch in a bad position and he didn't like it.", "speakers": [ "THE WITNESS", "DR. BERGOLD", "Q", "JUDGE", "A", "JUDGE MUSMANNO" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1497, "page_number": "", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "DR. BERGOLD:May it please the Tribunal, for the time being, at least I am through with my questions. However, when the prosecution is through with its questions, I would appreciate it very much if I could put any further 1184 a Court No. 2 - Take 4 (BK) questions forth should it be necessary, following the practice of this Tribunal.", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1498, "page_number": "1185", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "JUDGE MUSMANNO:You will be permitted to re-examine if you so wish.\nMR. DENNEY:He has got some notes here in German which Dr. Bergold's secretary made the last time that I just want to check.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:Yes, certainly.\n(A recess was taken.)\nMR. DENNEY:If Your Honor please, I have no questions of the witness.\nDR. BERGOLD:May it please the Tribunal, I have only the technical question. These minutes that were taken today, how can they be introduced to the Tribunal? I presume that they have to be signed by Speer.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:Oh, no. No. The witness took the oath and the testimony was stenographically recorded so that all you need to do during the trial is to read into the record such portions of the testimony taken today as you regard as relevant and of importance to your case.\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes, Your Honor. Mr. Denney this morning, however, thought that this had to be translated into the English at first before I can introduce it.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:Oh, well, that is obvious. Well you don't need to translate it. We have the English translation.\nDR. BERGOLD:Then, of course, we don't have to. I understood Mr. Denney to say, that is, the German records had to be retranslated into English.\nMR. DENNEY:Your Honor please, I made no such statement. The only thing I talked to him about was exhibits that we had used, part or all of which we had made available to him in German and if he wants to use an additional part Court No. 2 - Take 4 (BK) of an exhibit in German he has to furnish the Court and us and the stenographers and the interpreters with an English translation of it.", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD", "MR. DENNEY", "JUDGE MUSMANNO" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1499, "page_number": "", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "DR. BERGOLD:That was a misunderstanding on my part. I thought Mr. Denney was talking about the examination.\nMR. DENNEY:No. I mean because we have an English record now.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:That is the great advantage of having this interrogation here with the entire court machinery functioning.\nDR. BERGOLD:Thank you.\n1185 a Court No. 2 - Take 4 (BK)", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD", "MR. DENNEY", "JUDGE MUSMANNO" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1500, "page_number": "1186", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "JUDGE MUSMANNO:Dr. Bergold, I will allow you three or four minutes, as much time as reasonably is in order, to glance over your minutes, your records, to make certain that you still don't have something else you want to ask, because it would be well if we could finish it up entirely, you see.\nDR. BERGOLD:Indeed, Your Honor. Yes, indeed. I have one further question to the witness, if you don't mind.\nBY DR. BERGOLD:\nQDuring the examination on Friday, in my records and as far as I can see also in the English records, there was a certain formulation which reads as follows: \"The Jaegerstab was formed on the 1st of March 1944 by Milch.\" I don't believe that is quite correct.\nAYes. That must be a mistake which also occurred in the Central Planning meeting and undoubtedly it should read \"Speer\".\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes, indeed. That is all. I have no further questions.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:Now it is clear to you, I suppose, that whatever record you made of the first interrogation may not be introduced in evidence.\nDR. BERGOLD: Noin.\nJUDGEMUSMANNO: - because it is very fragmentary and incomplete.\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes, indeed. I don't want to do that anyway. I just wanted to clear that matter up because there was sort of a discussion a few minutes ago. Thank you very much, Your Honor. That is all. That is all.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:Very well.\n(The court adjourned at 1445 hours.)", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD", "Q", "JUDGE", "A", "JUDGE MUSMANNO" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1501, "page_number": "1187", "date": "17 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-17", "text": "DR. BERGOLD:May it please the Court, in view of this surprising conclusion of this matter, I have nothing to report to you at the moment. I have asked one or two witnesses for tomorrow. One of them will come back to Nurnberg this afternoon, Colonel Pendele. The other one is witness Wolff, who has not been asked and whom I haven't seen yet. Perhaps Mr. Denney can help me. He said the other day that he wanted to read something into the record.\nMay it please the Court, there is one question which should be debated as I remember right now. On Page 8 of Speer's interrogation there is a mistake which does not make sense -- on Page 8. That is in Speer's answer in roughly the middle of his big answer where Speer says there: \"The first category: Milch had given me plenipotentiary powers from 1942 on to carry the liaison between workers and soldiers.\" I see that in the English translation it is correctly stated with the word \"Hitler.\" In the German text by mistake it says \"Milch\", and I would ask to have it ordered that the German report should be altered to substitute that word \"Milch\" for the word \"Hitler\" on that page.\nMR. DENNEY:We have no objection, Your Honor. In the German copy the record reads \"Milch \" which is incorrect. The English copy is correct where it says \"Hitler.\" In Your Honors' book or a copy of the document that is the fourth line of the last answer beginning on Page 8 of the testimony taken before Judge Musmanno on 4 February 1947. The fourth word in that line reads \"Hitler\" which is proper, and in the German record on Page 8 the version of the testimony taken on the same day, the 14th line of the page, the first word reads \"Milch\" and it is conceded that the word should be \"Hitler.\"\nTHE PRESIDENT:Very well, the transcript will be corrected in accordance with the undisputed fact. Now, Mr. Denney, I think this statement did not get on to the record. The transcript will be corrected in accordance with the undisputed fact.\nMr. Denney, Judge Musmanno raises the point that this interpolation now of prosecution material is apt to be confusing, I mean this piece-meal presentation.", "speakers": [ "THE PRESIDENT", "DR. BERGOLD", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1502, "page_number": "1188", "date": "17 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-17", "text": "In reviewing the Defense testimony, we are suddenly confronted with the Prosecution testimony which is out of order, and it would simplify the problem of the Tribunal if you will withhold the material you are about to offer until the Defense has rested its case. It does save a few minutes, but it adds confusion which isn't time-saving.\nMR. DENNEY:As Your Honor pleases.\nTHE PRESIDENT:You won't have any testimony ready to submit this afternoon, Dr. Bergold?\nDR. BERGOLD:No, I have not.\nTHE PRESIDENT:But you will have tomorrow morning?\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes, tomorrow morning.\nMR. DENNEY:If I could find out who his witnesses are going to be -- Colonel Pendele, I take it, and former SS Obergruppenfuehrer Wolff.\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Those witnesses are here in Nurnberg?\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Very well, the Tribunal will hear them tomorrow morning at 9:30. I would like the Counsel for both sides to see me after the recess if you please, Dr. Bergold and Mr. Denney.\nThe Court will now recess.\nTHE MARSHAL:This Tribunal is now in recess until 0930 tomorrow morning.\n(The Tribunal adjourned until 0930 hours, 18 February 1947.)", "speakers": [ "THE PRESIDENT", "THE MARSHAL", "DR. BERGOLD", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1503, "page_number": "1189", "date": "17 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-17", "text": "AFTERNOON SESSION\nTHE MARSHAL:Tribunal No. 2 is again in session.\nDR. BERGOLD:May it please the Court, may I call the witness, Max Koenig?\nTHE PRESIDENT:Mr. Marshal, please bring the witness, Max Koenig, into the court room.\nJUDGE SPEIGHT:Witness, raise your right hand and repeat after me:\n\"I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.\"\n(The witness repeated the oath)\nJUDGE SPEIGHT:You may be seated.\nWITNESS:Thank you.\nDIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. BERGOLD:\nQWill you please give the Court your first name and second name?\nAMax Koenig.\nQWhen were your born?\nA 19 August, 1897.\nQWhat was your last position in the war with the Wehrmacht?\nAOberstleutnant in the Reserve.\nQAnd where were you?\nAWith the Commander of the Luftwaffe in Rechlin in charge of the testing station.\nQIt is known to you, witness, whether and what sort of orders, if at all, Milch gave with reference to the treatment of so-called terror pilots?\nAMy department was subordinate to the G L, and, therefore, received orders from that office concerning the treatment of pilots who had made emergency landings, and such orders were to the effect to inform the Burgenmeister and the Councillors that the prisoners who had made emergency landings should be sent to Oberursel at once.\nQThen were these orders given or wore they repeated in certain cases?", "speakers": [ "JUDGE SPEIGHT", "WITNESS", "A", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "Q", "THE MARSHAL" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1504, "page_number": "1190", "date": "17 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-17", "text": "A.I myself vent there in 1942 to that office and I remember very well that the first orders in this respect were given in 1943 and then in 1944.\nQ.Have these orders provided for the taking of prisoner of all pilots by the Luftwaffe and taking them to Oberursel?\nA.The GL ordered, followed by the threatening of heavy punishment, if the orders were not obeyed, that all pilots who bailed out or made emergency landings, should be taken at once in the quickest way possible to Oberursel.\nQ.Did you transmit these orders to the Mayors and Councillors of your District?\nA.These orders were passed on by the Commander of the testing station to the ground organization of the base, passed on to all Burgermeisters and the City Councillors.\nQ.Can you confirm that these orders came from Milch?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1505, "page_number": "1191", "date": "17 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-17", "text": "A.They came from the G L. It was even ordered how we should proceed. As far as I can recall we were ordered, among other things, that the contents of their pockets should be taken away from the pilots and sent to Uberursel with an accompanying letter.\nQ.Witness, did you know at that time that the Party wanted the pilots to be treated in a different manner?\nA.I did not know that for we in Rechlin had hardly any contact with the Party.\nQ.Therefore, you never corrected orders from the Party? Or would you have done this?\nA.No, we were subordinate to the G L, and, therefore, we could only take orders from that superior office.\nQ.Witness, what do you know within your office as to how concentration camp inmates were treated?\nA.I should say this: When labor was requested for the building of a pill box, we were given a detachment from Oranienburg. These prisoners were housed by the evacuating of our testing station, that means our German soldiers, in Lerz, and prisoners from the concentration camp at Oranienburg were moved into the billets of the German soldiers. There were about a thousand of these.\nQ.Were the barracks in good condition?\nA.I beg your pardon, they were not barracks in the bad sense of the word. They were the best billets which we had at our disposal, in Lerz. They were new buildings and contained, apart from the living rooms, a theatre room, and a big kitchen, with I believe four stoves. I know the camp because I visited it repeatedly.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1506, "page_number": "1192", "date": "17 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-17", "text": "Q.Witness, what orders did you receive for treating of those people by the GL?\nA.I remember two orders that were to the effect that all those who actually worked, whether foreigners or concentration camp inmates, should be treated well in order to save their good health and in order to increase their efficiency.\nQ.What has been done for that purpose?\nA.As far as their health was concerned, this order saw to it that I obtained medical supplies from the hospital, and dressing material .\nQ.What you call the revier - revier is the hospital ward?\nA.It is part of my office and is equivalent to a hospital. I must collect myself here. You asked a question about treatment, about orders from the Party concerning treatment of pilots who had bailed out of their planes. I myself recall, I believe in 1944, an aircraft was shot down and four pilots made emergency landings on the other side of the lake. Then I called up and officers of the Luftwaffe were immediately sent forward in order to collect the four pilots. I say this now because the officer came back and reported that four pilots were no longer available but had been transported away by the police. Put our orders were to collect them and I am sorry I didn't mention it before but now my case is complete.\nQ.Let us go back to concentration camp inmates. What has been done in health matters?\nA.There was an estate, called Boek. This estate consisted of several thousand acres and apart from potatoes and turnips also produced wheat. We received from that estate both for Larz Commander and concentration camps and for the foreign workers large quantities of goods produced there were handed over.\nQ.These concentration camp inmates; were they exploited unfairly during their working hours?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1507, "page_number": "", "date": "17 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-17", "text": "A.I can say this - I myself was in the hall east from there up to the building of the Commander, and was about a kilometer and a half. The foreign workers and concentration camp inmates lived in smaller and bigger groups and worked in such groups, but I could always observe them when I 1192-A walked along the lanes.", "speakers": [ "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1508, "page_number": "1193", "date": "17 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-17", "text": "It seemed that when the civilian and other employees there were still working the concentration camp groups had already stopped working because they had to be in their camp at a certain time. The time they needed to march to and fro was part of their working hours.\nQ.Were they told to work particularly fast, or particularly heavy?\nA.I can say this that I could really judge them because after all I saw them almost daily. Their work was not particularly slow, it wasn't particularly fast. And one couldn't say they were driven on.\nQ.Were these people happy or did you hear complaints?\nA.Should complaints have occurred I would have been the first to hear about them for it would have been my job to hear them because I headed the particular office for food and treatment which was the liaison office between ourselves and the Stalags.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1509, "page_number": "1194", "date": "17 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-17", "text": "I even listened at times to outbursts of Joy. And from the liaison office we bought everything, beginning from cigarettes and other small gifts, food stuffs, etc. This was used both in the camps and foreign workers were always running about freely there.\nQ.Did your office ask for concentration camp inmates or were they sent to you by labor exchanges on the basis of assignment of labor?\nA.We had to use two ways, we had to use two channels here one through labor exchanges and the other through our unit who ordered labor for us and on the basis of our application with the Labor Exchanges and the GL whether this special commando and attachment came from Oranienburg on the basis of our application I really don't know.\nQ.Did you request concentration camp inmates or simply workers?\nA.I may say quite frankly here I asked for German workers and I expected they would turn up but as we were under orders to maintain secrecy neither did I think of foreign workers or concentration camp inmates.\nQ.Witness, did you hear that Milch regarded the War as lost quite openly and that he made very strong statements in public?\nA.I myself and my Commanding Officer were friends. As my Commanding Officer was immediately subordinated to Milch and I had to see from conversation, apart from official relationship there was also a friendly relationship. I also heard what Milch thought - I heard that Milch went very far in his judgment and not only regarded the war as lost but was very critical of certain institutes and certain people.\nQ.I have no other questions. He is at the disposal of Prosecution.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1510, "page_number": "", "date": "17 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-17", "text": "CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. DENNEY:\nQ.Just what was your job in Rechlin?\nA.I was 1-B or I Bertha - that means an organization and my job was 1194-A looking after the Army.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1511, "page_number": "1195", "date": "17 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-17", "text": "QYour 1-B in the German Army is similar to G-1 in the American Army - personnel?\nANo, not personnel. That would be 2-Aor 2-B. 2-Aand 2-B is personnel, and 1-B is purely organization which deals with statements and statistics of figures.\nQWell, in your position having to do with figures you possibly were concerned with labor in Rechlin?\nAFrom Rechlin we started to build a shelter in Larz and to carry this out we had to ask for labor.\nQDidn't they consolidate requests for labor and give them to you and you would send than up?\nARequests were sent on to labor exchanges and all the others.....", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1512, "page_number": "1196", "date": "17 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-17", "text": "went to the GL.\nQAnd they were sent by you?\nAThey were sent by the Commanding Officer of the Testing Stating, that is, to say, my superior officer.\nQBut you got them up and gave them to him to send them on?\nAI worked on them and passed them on to my Commanding Officer.\nQYou said that you had concentration camp workers -- you also had foreign workers didn't you?\nAThere were about 1000 concentration inmates and a certain number of foreign worker's - Russians, French, and Italians.\nQDid you have any Prisoners of War?\nAYes, we had some Prisoners of War.\nQHow many people were employed there altogether?\nAIn Rechlin Prisoners of War and foreign workers, Germans, altogether there were 4 to 5 thousand.\nQWell, now we have got 1000 concentration camp workers. So that leaves 3 to 4 thousand left. How were those broken down among Prisoners of War, foreign workers, and Germans?\nAPrisoners of War roughly 500. There were about 300 foreigners, and the rest were German civilians and German military personnel.\nQNow, these concentration camp workers, were they guarded?\nAThey were guarded in their own camps and in some cases on trucks were taken to their places of work on the east Boek air strip.\nQAnd the foreigners, were they guarded?\nAI think they were at first a little guarded or, let us say, not at all.\nQHow about the prisoners of war?\nAThe Prisoners of War were under a similar condition as there were not very many guards at our disposal - guards were very few.\nQYou talked about the concentration camp people marching back and forth. Were they marching under guard?", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1513, "page_number": "1197", "date": "17 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-17", "text": "AYes, they marched under guard.\nQIn stockade?\nAThey were in large camps or huts under stockade and under guard.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1514, "page_number": "1198", "date": "17 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-17", "text": "Q.Was there barbed wire around it?\nA.Yes, there was barbed wire.\nQ.Add guards walking around?\nA.And guards, yes.\nQ.Armed guards?\nA.Yes, they were armed.\nQ.Now, you told about passing on these orders about the terror fliers to the buergermeisters. The order that you spoke of that you got from the defendant?\nA.From the GL.\nQ.The GL was Field Marshal Milch?\nA.That was Herr Filch.\nQ.And you gave those orders on to the buergermeisters about the so-called \"terror fliers\"?\nA.The buergermeisters and county councils.\nQ.And then one day you heard about four fliers who had parachuted or made a forced landing - anyway they came down, and you sent your soldiers over there and you were told that they were not available?\nA.No. The officer came back and said that the police had arrested the four pilots who had made a forced landing, contrary to our order and contrary to the regulations where the telephone number of our air field had to be passed on to the buergermeisters. The report to the buergermeisters had the purpose to inform the air field as quickly as possible so that from there a truck could pick up the pilots.\nQ.Which police had taken these four fliers?\nA.Unfortunately I do not know. The officer of the air field came back and reported that the police had fetched them. He didn't see the police. He merely was informed by the buergermeister of this.\nQ.And then what did you do? Did you call the buergermeister up?\nA.No, we passed this on to the air field and the air field reported this to the Luftgau. The Luftgau is the next superior office above the air field.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1515, "page_number": "", "date": "17 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-17", "text": "Q.Did they ever get these four fliers back?\n1198a", "speakers": [ "Q." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1516, "page_number": "1199", "date": "17 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-17", "text": "A.No.\nQ.They never got them back?\nA.I do not know where they were taken to.\nQ.You were the second man at Rechlin. You know that these orders were passed on to the buergermeisters that you received through your immediate superior from the Generalluftzeugmeister?\nA.I was not the second man. I was E Commander - commander of that office. I was purely an expert in I B. I was concerned in this because Colonel Peterson of the SD Commando ordered the air field should make investigations because of the Milch order to the effect that every pilot should be at once taken to Oberursel.\nQ.At any rate, you didn't do anything about this after you heard it?\nA.Oh, yes. The report was immediately sent to the Luftgau that the pilots had been taken away.\nQ.Did you send the report?\nA.No, the report had to be sent by the competent office of the ground organization - namely, the air field.\nQ.You never made any effort to find out what happened to these four Allied fliers?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1517, "page_number": "1200", "date": "17 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-17", "text": "A.Oh, yes, that was passed on at once and the air field having received it sent it on to the Luftgau and continued to work on this matter. What happened at the end I could not possibly find out because the Luftgau, the next highest office, had to report on it through those channels of command.\nQ.You never tried to find out, did you? Did you ever call up anybody over at the Luftgau and ask them what happened to these four fliers?\nA.No, I could hardly do that because I belonged to the testing station and there was a certain amount of dualism. It was rather like air activity on the one hand and the ground organization on the other.\nQ.You knew what the Hitler order was about terror fliers, didn't you?\nA.Yes, I learned about this much later after this emergency landing in 1944. I heard about this in 1945 when I was interrogated in Munich by the Reichsmarshal Special Court.\nQ.What nationality were these pilots?\nA.I could not say that. I assumed they were Americans but I could not say that with certainty because we never saw the insignia of the aircraft nor even the pilots themselves as we did not take them prisoners.\nQ.Were there any SD units around where you were?\nA.In Rechlien itself, no, but my chief, Peterson, and I myself learned later on that we were supervised by the SD Service.\nQ.You say that in your position you would have heard complaints from any of the workers of whom you had four to five thousand of whom approximately two thousand were made up of concentration camp workers, prisoners of war and foreign workers. You never got a single complaint from any of those people, is that right?\nA.No. I can only confirm that repeatedly the foreign workers gave expressions of their gratitude for what the office did for them --presided over by a sergeant and which came to them from the Stalag.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1518, "page_number": "1201", "date": "17 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-17", "text": "We would have been forbidden anyway to enter the concentration camp compound because it was part of Oranienburg and Oranienburg was an SS office.\nQ.So you never were inside, were you, in the concentration camp?\nA.I went repeatedly there. I myself attended the hospital hours. That is to say, I looked at the ill people before they saw the doctor and I asked the doctor afterwards if he needed anything and thereupon I got the medical supplies from the air field and for that purpose I was able to do this because I was supported by the order of the GL.\nQ.The Generalluftzeugmeister was able to arrange it so you could go into the camp and look around?\nA.On the basis of the order where it was my duty to look after the people that they should be well-treated and well-looked after and therefore I was admitted into their compound.\nQ.And the compound was under the jurisdiction of the SS who had jurisdiction over ....\nA. (Interrupting) Yes, that was under the jurisdiction of the SS.\nQ.And they had jurisdiction over all of the concentration camps?\nA.I didn't know that but all I knew is that they came from Oranienburg and that the regulations concerning that compound came from Oranienburg.\nQ.You knew that Himmler was head of the SS?\nA.I heard about that in 1945.\nQ.In 1945 you found out that Himmler was the Reichsfuehrer SS?\nA.Yes.\nQ.I have not more questions.\nJUDGE MUSSMANNO:Witness, you mean you did not know, before 1945, what power Himmler had in the SS?\nWITNESS:No, Your Honor. Particularly in the testing station we did not discuss that nor did we receive many reports there.", "speakers": [ "JUDGE MUSSMANNO", "Q.", "A.", "WITNESS" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1519, "page_number": "1202", "date": "17 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-17", "text": "The attitude of my chief -- I may perhaps say here, of the GL himself it was known what their attitude was towards the Party. We ourselves were under the Gauleiter of Mecklenburg who supervised us. Therefore we went to no trouble to look into other matters.\nTHE PRESIDENT:This testing station was in Germany, wasn't it?\nWITNESS:Yes. Rechlin is roughly 120 kilometers north east of Berlin on the Mulef Lake.\nTHE PRESIDENT:And an officer of the German Army, 120 kilometers from Berlin, didn't know who Himmler was until 1945?\nWITNESS:Of course, I knew that Himmler was a Party member but that Himmler had all the concentration camps under him I really didn't know until very much later.\nTHE PRESIDENT:But you knew he was head of the SS?\nWITNESS:I knew that he was an SS commander. I did not know until then that he was the head of the SS.", "speakers": [ "WITNESS", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1520, "page_number": "1203", "date": "17 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-17", "text": "***** PHILLIPS:\nQ.How many concentration camp victims did you hoar were killed up to 1945; starved to death and killed?\nA.I did not know that and I only learned it from press notices, which came out in connection with the Nurnberg trials.\nQ.How many concentration camp workers were killed in your camp?\nA.Nobody was tortured or killed in our camp; not even one man.\nQ.Did any of them die a natural death while you were there?\nA.Nobody died; I can confirm to the court that both tho health and the individual's happiness was such that there was neither case of death or complaint.\nBY JUDGE TOMS:\nQ.The name of this concentration camp I must know; what was it?\nA.The camp was near Rechlien and was an office attached to Oranienburg.\nQ.That was Oranienburg you were talking about?\nA.It must have been a branch of Oranienburg. Up to my resignation on 31 January 1945 neither torture or fatalities occurred there. I said that before, Your Honor, and I should like to repeat it.\nQ.Don't repeat it.\nBY JUDGE MUSMANNO:\nQ.How many inmates were there in this camp; what was the population of this camp?\nA.The camp was roughly about 1,000 people strong.\nQ.And how long were you there?\nA.From October, 1942 until January 31, 1945.\nQ.So that in approximately three years time there was not one death in this camp?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1521, "page_number": "", "date": "17 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-17", "text": "A.Your Honor, the camp was not founded in 1942; as far as I can remember, it only came at the end of 1943 or early in 1944. I cannot give you the exact figure of the arrivals. I think it must have been at the 1203-A end of 1943 or the beginning of 1944.", "speakers": [ "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1522, "page_number": "1204", "date": "17 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-17", "text": "Q.And in all that time there was not one single death in the entire camp?\nA.Your Honor, I had not heard of one single case of death. Should one case of death have occurred, it is possible that the SS in Oranienburg would have been told. We ourselves had not heard of one case of death in that camp.\nQ.Do you mean this camp was functioning as a health resort?\nA.I cannot say that your Honor, but after the end of the war I heard that the camp was removed. And I heard that the people did not like to go away. Before the end of the war, the people lived there and they were given food just as much as was corresponding to their performance and they were merely able to work there.\nDR. BERGOLD:Your Honors, I myself have no further questions to the witness. I should like to say one thing, and that is that not every plant or concentration camp tortured its laborers. One hears now of certain camps, but it was not everywhere the same way and as long as there was responsible supervision, conditions in the camp were quite human. As you heard yourself just now. The term \"concentration camp\" is not always synonymous with murder.\nI have no further questions to the witness. No further questions, Your Honor.\nJUDGE MUSSMANNOThe witness is excused.\nDR. BERGOLD:May it please the Court, may we now have a recess until tomorrow morning? I have nothing to submit to the Court at this time.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Very well, we will recess until tomorrow morning at 9:30.\n(The Tribunal adjourned until 18 February 1947, at 0930 hours.)", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "JUDGE MUSSMANNO" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1523, "page_number": "1205", "date": "18 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-18", "text": "Official transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the natter of the United States of America against Erhard Milch, defendant, sitting at Nuernberg, Germany, on 18 February 1947, 0980, Judge Toms presiding.\nTHE MARSHAL:Persons in the courtroom will please find their seats. The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal 2. Military Tribunal 2 is now in session. God save the United States of America and this honorable Tribunal. There will be order in the court.\nDR. BERGOLD:May it please the Court, may I call the witness Colonel Pendele?\nTHE PRESIDENT:The Marshal will bring the witness Pendele to the courtroom.\nMAXPENDELE, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:Witness, you will raise your right hand and repeat after me:\nI swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.\n(The witness repeated the oath.)\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:You may be seated.\nDIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. BERGOLD:\nQ.Witness, will you please sneak slowly and will you also pause after each of my questions so that the translators can finish translating my question. Witness, will you please give the Court your first name and second name?\nA.Pendele, Max.\nQ.When were you born?\nA. 25 April 1891.\nQ.What was your rank and position in the Wehrmacht?\nA.Colonel of the Luftwaffe, Adjutant to the GL.\nQ.Do you know Herr Milch?\nA.Yes.\nQ.If you see him in the courtroom, please point to him with your hand.\n(The witness complied.)", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "MAX", "THE MARSHAL", "JUDGE MUSMANNO" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1524, "page_number": "1206", "date": "18 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-18", "text": "DR. BERGOLD:Will you please state in the record that the witness has recognized the defendant.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The record will so show.\nBY DR. BERGOLD:\nQ.Witness, since when were you adjutant to the GL?\nA.Since 1937.\nQ. Were you with Milch since that time or were you at first with his predecessor?\nA. With his predecessor, Colonel-General Udet.\nQ. After his resignation you had some official contacts with Milch?\nA. Yes.\nQ. When was that?\nA. After Udet's death, in the autumn of 1941.\nQ. Can you give me that date a little more precisely?\nA. Udet died on 17 November 1941 and after that time I was with Milch.\nQ. From when onwards was Milch connected with armament in the war?\nA. The tasks of the GL were given to Milch after Udet's death.\nQ. When did Milch resign as GL from his armament task?\nA. Virtually by the middle of 1944, when the new office of Chief of Technical Air Armament was created.\nQ. What did Milch have to do with the Four Year Plan, as far as you can judge?\nA. Milch had no position in the Four Year Plan.\nQ. As GL, or otherwise, were Sauckel and his various labor exchanges under Milch?\nA. No.\nQ. As GL, did Milch have anything to do with the recruiting of foreign labor, their transport, or their feeding?\nA. No, The recruiting and the looking after of foreign workers was exclusively the task of the plenipotentiary for Labor; that is to say, Sauckel.\nQ. Was Milch in a position to give orders to the military commanders in the occupied territories or civilian authorities there?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1525, "page_number": "1207", "date": "18 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-18", "text": "A. No.\nQ. Witness, did you yourself have anything to do with the Central Planning Board?\nA. No.\nQ. Did you have to take part in conferences of the Central Planning Board as Milch's adjutant?\nA. In the first meeting of the Central Planning Board Field Marshall Milch was accompanied by his first adjutant, Polke. It is possible that later on I took part temporarily in one or two meeting.\nQ. What do you call \"temporarily\"?\nA. As adjutant, it was my task to accompany the Field Marshal. I was called out to take telephone calls during meetings; to deal with visitors. I had no responsibility in the meetings proper. My presence at meetings was purely temporary in that sense.\nQ. Witness, what was the labor position in the air armament industry? Was there enough labor or insufficient labor?\nA. Labor was insufficient.\nQ. Do you know whether Sauckel's promises and Sauckel's statements - according to which he had supplied a certain number of millions of workers - were those statements correct or not?\nA. They were usually not correct. I can remember very well when Sauckel gave his famous, \"I report, my Fuehrer, that I have supplied three or four million workers to the armament industry.\" Actually, only a fraction of that figure turned up in reality.\nQ. The term \"fraction\" is a bit vague. Can you give me an approximate figure?\nA. When the statement of three million was made, air armament only had about 280,000 workers.\nQ. Witness, do you know that there were foreign workers in air armament?\nA. Yes.\nQ. What were your own observations on that point, as to how these foreign workers were treated?", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1526, "page_number": "1208", "date": "18 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-18", "text": "A.I never accompanied the Field Marshal during his inspection tours to armament factories. As far as my own observations, however, in my private life I lived in Berlin, Lichterfelde West, near the big Telefunken factory. There I could observe that foreign workers employed there, mainly Frenchmen, were completely free and left at large; that in the big camp near Goerz, where Russian women workers were employed, they went in close parties on Sundays, singing.\nQ.Did you observe whether they were well dressed and looked well fed?\nA.They looked very well fed and very decently dressed.\nQ.Witness, did Milch, in his capacity, have any power to punish workers in the air armament industry, Germans or foreigners?\nA.Never over workers.\nQ.Did he have such power over prisoners of war?\nA.He did not have that either.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1527, "page_number": "1209", "date": "18 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-18", "text": "QDid it ever become known to you whether he had foreign workers or prisoners shot or hanged?\nAHo nay have expressed his indignation, perhaps, he may have said these people must be hanged, but the powers for that, to carry this out, the Field Marshal didn't have at all.\nQYou called it expression of indignation, was it well known in this circle that Milch frequently used strong language without their taking it seriously?\nAOh, yes, that was known to us.\nQThese expressions of indignation, did they go beyond his immediate circle?\nANo.\nQAnd you in your own circle didn't take these expressions seriously.\nANo, it was known that the Field Marshal was fond of using strong language. He was apt to blow up, but we never took that seriously.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Mr. Bergold, excuse me, please. We have had a great deal of testimony on this subject, and you have asked on several occasions this same question, namely, did these remarks of indignation or threats on the part of the defendant go beyond his own circle, and the answer invariably was \"no.\" Now, I assume you mean by that that the circle included his coworkers , his collaborators?\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes.\nTHE PRESIDENT:But in the record there are references to declarations on the part of the defendant in the way of threats to people not within his own circle, that is, the workers themselves, these foreign workers, people brought in from other countries. Now you did not regard them within the circle, did you?\nDR. BERGOLD:No. I will only prove that these expressions of indignation only occurred during those meetings, and that they did not go beyond this immediate circle of his co-workers, that in particular they did not even reach the foreign workers concerned.\nBY DR. BERGOLD:", "speakers": [ "A", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1528, "page_number": "1210", "date": "18 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-18", "text": "Q.Witness, you have heard what has boon stated in the record. Did they reach the circle of foreign workers?\nA.No, never was there any possibility for those statements to roach the ears of foreign workers. The record and minutes of these meetings were never distributed, and otherwise what was said in those meetings always remained within the circle of those taking part.\nQ.Did Milch ever issue an order to that effect, to beat or to shoot foreign workers?\nA.No, to whom could he issue such orders. Ho had no powers of command on the management about those workers.\nQ.If I understand you correctly, these were purely, if I may put it a little bluntly, these were purely platonic expressions?\nA.Yes, quite.\nQ.Witness, is it not true that Milch, if he gave orders for foreign workers to work, particularly if he did not also issue orders as to the care of foreign workers, did he not issue such orders?\nA.Yes, he did, I think particularly on the taking care of workers, or special allocations of smoking goods, smokes and tobacco. There was a special department, even within the staff, and later on within the armament staff, which was concerned exclusively with the looking after of these workers. It was in our interest after all, to increase the production efficiency of those people in order to obtain the best possible results.\nQ.Witness, these expressions of indignation, were they also concerned with his health. Did they become more acute after certain incidents?\nA.We talked about the fact that Milch's excitability could be explained by an air crash in which he was over Munich in 1933. In any case his excitability became worse when the Field Marshal returned from his inspection tour at Stalingrad, where his car ran into a railway engine.\nQ.Witness, do you know the secret orders by Himmler on the treatment of foreign workers which he issued to the SD?\nA.No.\nQ.Romberg's report on the State of Affairs in the East?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1529, "page_number": "1211", "date": "18 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-18", "text": "A.No.\nQ.The regulations in Poland?\nA.No, may I add that this be taken into consideration, that with the GL we had a colossal daily mail of about three thousand letters. I myself worked on about 10 percent. I had to look through about ten per cent of this and so, therefore, one only concentrated on the most important things, above all the things which called for action, and submit it to the Field Marshal and I read these things myself. Of course, any uninteresting reports which did not concern the work of the GL these were put away as quickly as possible considering the volume of mail.\nQ.In other words, they never reached the eyes of Herr Milch.\nA.Well, when you asked me about Romberg's reports. I can no longer refer to them now but it is quite possible that a great many things were immediately dealt with without reaching the Field Marshal.\nQ.Did you work with Milch on a confidential or friendly basis?\nA.I was with him for six or seven years and I got along with him very well. I hope he gave me his confidence.\nQ.Did he ever tell you he heard anything about the mistreatment of foreign workers during their transport or recruiting?\nA.No.\nQ.Would it have been possible in that long period of time that you would have heard about this, was it his characteristic to say these things quite frequently?\nA.Oh, yes, he would have talked about them.\nQ.Witness, in August, 1941, Goering ordered the transfer of a hundred thousand workers into the air armament industry. Did this happen before Milch became GL?\nA.August, 1941, after all Udet only died in November, 1941. In other words, it must have been before Milch's time.\nQ.A document has been submitted according to which before November, 1941, Goering ordered the employment of Russian prisoners of war, who was GL at that time?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1530, "page_number": "1212", "date": "18 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-18", "text": "AAfter 1941, Udet, virtually throughout his last three months of his office, UDET did not work at Buehlerhoehe.\nQDid Milch look after the GL's office at that time?\nANo, at that time the last chief of staff was in charge, Colonel Oberst Bloch.\nQIn an affidavit of Sauckel, it has been stated that he had reported monthly to Milch concerning the recruiting of workers. He was under obligation to do so in fact. Do you know that Sauckel appeared to make oral reports?\nAHe was not under obligation to do so, because he was not our subordinate. Certain reports came in, of course, but not regularly, how many workers had been taken into the industry, but he was not under obligation to report.\nQWitness, what was Milch's attitude throughout to these reports of Sauckel? Did ha think they were true or did he fight against them?\nASauckel's reports were not taken quite seriously.As I said before, on the occasion of the famous Fuehrer record they only received a fraction.\nQIs it known to you that Goering based answers on Sauckel's figures, and therefore reproached Milch for not producing enough?", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1531, "page_number": "1213", "date": "18 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-18", "text": "ASauckel's reports probably reached Goering and Goering believed we had a large number of workers, and then he said \"why don't you with so many workers not produce more?\" But an actual fact, we didn't have the workers.\nQIs it known to you that the GL requested foreign labor or was he more keen on German workers?\nAOnly in order to get increased production we had to concentrate on German workers, skilled specialists.\nQIs it known to you that Milch sought to keep German soldiers in the air armament industry?\nAYes, the General Staff of the Luftwaffe, also the OKW, Milch cleared with the authorities quite frequently in order to keep skilled German workers in the factories, and safeguard then from being called up.\nQIs it known to you also how Milch looked on the Air Armament Industry, did he prefer the fighter arm or the bomber arm, and why he took that attitude?\nAMilch was more keen on the defensive idea. You might say from that he was so keen on producing more and more fighters, that is to say the defensive bomb.\nQDid he force foreign workers to lower bombs on aircraft or bomb anti-aircraft guns?\nAThe GL had no bomber aircraft to begin with. That is entirely up to the troops at the front, and he was not connected with the front in any way.\nQIn April 1943 Milch sent a letter to Goering and Sauckel on the increased protection of industry for the guarding of industries in the fire areas, what did he want to achieve by that?\nATo increase the protection against enemy air raids, or against sabotage acts.\nQWas that not supervision of foreign workers which he asked for there?", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1532, "page_number": "", "date": "18 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-18", "text": "ANo, I don't think so.\nQWas Milch in a position to send workers to anybody else at all, into a concentration camp?\n1213a into a concentration camp?", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1533, "page_number": "1214", "date": "18 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-18", "text": "ANo, he did not have the power for that.\nQWere those comments made known to you which were made at the meetings?\nAYes.\nQIs it right to say the conversation was only limited?\nAYes.\nQAnd that these reports were circulated only among a restricted number of authorities?\nAYes, only two or three copies, the written records or verbatim reports, were circulated among only a certain number of people.\nQWere these departments under the GL or Central Planning Board?\nAI only know the minutes of the GL, the JaegerstabAmenstab, there were two or four copies each, which were meant only for the Chiefs.\nQThese records or minutes once they were drawn up, did Milch check them up when he got them, or did you do so by his orders?\nAIn some cases, I didn't have the time to read, but only to spot check read reports of meetings which had been taken elsewhere.\nQIs it known to you that these records and minutes are really inaccurate?\nAThere were certain inaccuracies, yes, in figures for instance, and in names which turned up in the reports. The sense was in the whole correct.\nQDid it happen that when Milch spoke strong political words, were orders not given to omit that statement or put them in a different style?\nAYes, that is true. When Milch expressed indignation to the higher officers, then it was said \"you needn't put that in the records.\"\nQDid it happen people were told \"you must change that a little?\"\nAI would say omit it altogether or put it in a different form.\nQWere you present on the 25th, third month of 1944, when he addressed the Naval Engineers of the Quartermaster?", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1534, "page_number": "", "date": "18 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-18", "text": "AYes.\nQCan you recall that in that speech Milch was particularly strong and critical?\nAI believe at that time the topic was to relieve certain material parts.\n1214a *************Maloy (ATD)", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1535, "page_number": "1215", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "AI believe at that time the topic was to relieve certain material parts. The troops had complained that many spare parts, small spare parts could not be had and it is well known that the head of a big air factory, for instance when he receives small requests, does not take them out. He must rather relieve the larger requests. And this technic on the part of heads of factories against this method of holding small things back, Milch attacked in his speech and expressed his wish in this matter. For that expression of his indignation I am cure he used strong language on that occasion.\nQWitness, what were the reasons to form the Jaegerstab?\nASpeer's Ministry by giving reference for treatment to the task and U-Boat Arm created a disadvantage for the Luftwaffe. Too much material and labor were taken into the Speer Ministry. The Luftwaffe had to be increased in its potential, and at that time Field Marshall Milch conceived the idea, together with Speer, to increase ail production for the Luftwaffe. He borrowed the best men from Speer for this Jaegerstab, a man called Sauer, and this is how it came about in the spring that the Jaegerstab was founded.\nQWho was the real head one under the formal head of the Jaegerstab?\nAAt the beginning Field Marshall Milch, for about three or four months, from March to the summer, then he couldn't take part in the meetings much and then Sauer became the command.\nQWasn't Sauer very active in the Jaegerstab in the beginning?\nAYes, his activities developed.\nQ who wanted the air industry to be transferred, was that a Hitler order, the idea of Hitler, or could it have been Goering as well?\nAIn my opinion it was a Hitler order. I only know the Hitler order.\nQDid the Jaegerstab recruit foreign workers in occupied territories?\nANo, that was exclusively the task of the Plenopotentiaries for the Naval assignments.\nQWas Milch in a position to give orders to the OKW, OKH, and OKL?\nANo, nobody would allow anyone to interfere with his sphere of office, nor was he superior officer to these departments, no.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1536, "page_number": "1216", "date": "18 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-18", "text": "DR. BERGOLD:I myself have no more questions to this witness at this point.\nCROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. DENNEY:\nQWitness, you said that you were with Udet until November, 1941?\nAYes.\nQAnd thereafter Milch, and you were with Milch up until the end; when was the end?\nAI left Milch in the last days of March or early inApril 1945.\nQBy the way how did Udet die?\nAYes.\nQHow?\nAHe shot himself.\nQWhere?\nAIn Berlin.\nQIn the Air Ministry?\nAIn his private flat.\nQHow, you said that Sauckel was completely in charge.", "speakers": [ "A", "DR. BERGOLD", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1537, "page_number": "1217", "date": "18 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-18", "text": "of all labor matters, but the requisitioning of labor for the Air Ministry went through the Office of the Generalluftzeugmeister?\nA. We had only report or requests filed, and thereupon we were allocated workers by Sauckel.\nQ.So the whole industry would send up to the Generalluftzeugmeister what they would need, and they would consolidate them and forward them to Sauckel, hoping they would get some labor?\nA.It was hoped that he would supply the labor.\nQ.Now, you said that Milch gave orders with reference to the kindly treatment of the laborers in the aircraft industry, is that right?\nA.Yes. I said at that time in the Jaegerstab there was a special department to look after these people.\nQ.They wanted to keep them happy and they wanted to keep the production up?\nA.They wanted them to do good work.\nQ.Because Germany was trying to get some fighter airplanes?\nA.Yes.\nQ.And he gave orders that these people should be well treated?\nA.It wasn't a special order to treat them well, but this was within the organization of facilities that this special department was founded. Additional food, additional tobacco were given to these people.\nQ.And these orders came down from the G.L.?\nA.Yes, from the G.L.\nQ.Now, early in 1941 or sometime around the middle of 1941 when these 100 thousand French workers came on a decree of Goering to work in the air armament, Udet knew about that, didn't he?\nA.Yes, that must have been at Udet's time.\nQ.Did you know about those 100 thousand workers that came in there?\nA.No.\nQ.Do you know whether or not the defendant knew about them?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1538, "page_number": "1218", "date": "18 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-18", "text": "A.I don't think so. I can hardly think that Udet would have talked to the Field Marshall about this, for at that time, Milch didn't have to concentrate on armament so much.\nQ.On 17th November 1941, do you remember an exodus of 100 thousand French workers back to France?\nA.You don't recall that they all went back as soon as Udet died, do you?\nQ.No.\nQ.Now, these Russian prisoners of War that had been ordered by Goering to work in the airplane industry, that was under Udet too, was it?\nA.Yes.\nQ.Do you know about the Russian prisoners of War working in the airplane factory?\nA.I could not recall any such thing. I don't think we had Russians in the industry.\nQ.You didn't have any Russians in the industry?\nA.I cannot say so for certain.\nQ.Well, you lived up near Berlin and there were big factories up there where you lived, and you used to see the workers; did you ever see any Russians there?\nA.I said before I knew about Russian girls who worked in the factories.\nQ.You saw Russian girls there, did you ever see any Russian prisoners of war?\nA.I could not recall any prisoners of war, soldiers who were prisoners.\nQ.There were other kinds of prisoners of war besides soldiers; you are a soldier and certainly knew what a prisoner of war is?\nA.I should say I saw these people work in uniform. If they were prisoners of war would they be in uniform? I saw Russian girls and knew there were Frenchmen there, and I knew there were soldiers,--", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1539, "page_number": "1219", "date": "18 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-18", "text": "Q.You never saw any Russian Prisoners of War workers and as far as you know there never were any?\nA.I saw workers in the streets and on the railroad tracks.\nQ.But you never saw any Russian prisoners of War working in the airplane industry?\nA.I never saw uniformed soldiers in the industry.\nQ.As far as you knew none of them ever worked in the industry?\nA.I believe not.\nQ.At the time that Goering ordered these Russian prisoners of War into Udet, you didn't know about it?\nA.No.\nQ.Now, you said that reports on workers coming into the industry were made by Sauckel to the Generalluftzauegmeister; how often did these reports come in?\nA.On the supply of labor I believe that there were reports quarterly giving figures.\nQ.Were these reports broken down into the source of the labor?\nA.Do you mean that there were so many French and so many Russian and people from other nations? Do you mean people from Russia, France and other countries?\nQ.Yes, where they came from?\nA.I believe so. It was said that there were people from France and other countries. That was not my immediate job and therefore I had no records about it, on the question of labor.\nQ.You saw the reports that came in with breakdowns of where they came from?\nA.But without really taking them in.\nQ.You weren't in charge of labor, there was no reason for you to take them in?\nA.No, my main task was simply to distribute mail and send each report to the right office.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1540, "page_number": "1220", "date": "18 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-18", "text": "Q.You don't want the Court to believe you were just a postal clerk, do you?\nA.I think the adjutant had to do a little more then distribute mail.\nQ.You were a colonel of the Luftwaffe?\nA.Yes.\nQ.Now, you said that the defendant was never connected with the front in any way, didn't he have a field command at one time during the War?\nA.Oh, yes.\nQ.Where was it, do you recall?\nA.In Norway.\nQ.He was commander of an air fleet up there?\nA.Yes, of an air fleet.\nQ.Do you remember which one it was?\nA.Air Fleet 5 of Norway.\nQ.You also said that Milch had not power to get anybody into a concentration camp?\nA.Yes.\nQ.Could he have gotten anybody out?\nA.He could at the most approach the officers in charge of the concentration camps and ask them to release that man.\nQ.Well who would he approach if he wanted to get anybody out?\nA.I should think Himmler.\nQ.Himmler was in charge of these, wasn't he?\nA.Yes.\nQ.You know that all during the war that Himmler was head of the concentration camps?\nA.Yes, I know that.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1541, "page_number": "1221", "date": "18 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-18", "text": "QDid you go to the Generalluftzeugmeister meetings?\nATo most of them.\nQWell, do you remember how many there were?\nAWeekly at first; there may have been hundreds on the whole.\nQAnd you went to most of them?\nAYes.\nQDid you ever hear the question of foreign labor discussed in the Generalluftzeugmeister meetings?\nAOh yes, that was discussed.\nQDid they ever talk about sending laborers to the SS camps or SD camps?\nANo.\nQNever any talk about Himmler taking over these laborers who didn't do so well?\nAAs I said before that expressions of indignation on the part of Milch as far as the treatment of foreign laborers was concerned did help them; so, therefore, these people were mentioned in the meetings.\nQOh, they did mention them.\nAThe treatment of foreign labor, foreign workers, was discussed at the meetings.\nQDid you ever talk about turning them over to Himmler?\nANo.\nQNo?\nAI am sorry; I don't understand the question.\nQYou were at most of the meetings, weren't you?\nAI did not understand or take in everything at the meetings; I could mention the sense of these meetings.\nQI just asked you simply -- did you ever hear any talk about turning these foreign workers over to Himmler.\nANo.\nQDid you go to the Jaegerstab meetings?\nAIn some cases.\nQDid you ever hear any talk like that there?", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1542, "page_number": "1222", "date": "18 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-18", "text": "A.It is very difficult to differentiate between these GL of Jaegerstab meetings because on both occasions the question of labor of airplane factories and also of the recruitment of labor was mentioned. The Jaegerstab also is a sort of the child of the GL. There were almost the same people who took part in both meetings.\nQ.How many people used to go to these meetings of the GL and Jaegerstab meetings?\nA.About thirty.\nQ.And did the defendant know all those people well?\nA.Experts or heads of departments were probably not so well known to him on the whole he knew all these people.\nQ.Now, you say he used strong words often in these meetings, and when any of the higher party members was mentioned, they took the expression of the defendant out. Do you remember who he used to talk about?\nA.It might have been Goering, or it could have been even Hitler, if somebody said these people up there should realize what they want; whether they wanted bombers or fighters; whether they wanted offensive warfare or defensive warfare. That showed that Milch had a certain judgment.\nQ.And then they would take that out of the minutes, and if he expressed himself more strongly, these people were told don't put that in. You were sure nothing got in about Adolph or Hermann; is that right? In a bad way?\nA.No.\nQ.Now, you talked about this Generalluftzeugmeister speech made on 25 March 1944; and you said that you best could recall that the big subject under discussion there was spare parts.\nA.The speech to the quartermasters and naval engineers was the release of the last material reserve of spare parts and reserves.\nQ.How many people were at that speech; do you recall?\nA.As far as I remember, it was in a small room; there couldn't have been more than about forty.\nQ.You don't remember anything else that was talked about at that meeting?\nA.The main topic was the release of spare parts and material reserves.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1543, "page_number": "1223", "date": "18 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-18", "text": "QYou didn't hear anything said about whipping people?\nACertainly not in that meeting.\nQAnd there was never anything said about 'there is no international law'?\nANo.\nQNever any talk about hanging anybody?\nAThe expression hanging might have been used; that man should be hanged; that man should be shot; that might have been said.\nQI forgot; those are the expressions the defendant always used to use; he always used to say that. Now, did you know a Luftwaffe civilian employee, who is a doctor, whose name is Ruff?\nANot that I know of.\nQDid you know a doctor named Romberg?\nAI only heard that name now.\nQDid you know in the Luftwaffe a doctor, who was a member of the Luftwaffe, named Hippke?\nAYes, I knew him.\nQYou knew Hippke.\nAYes.\nQDo you ever recall; do you remember over having a conversation with Dr. Ruff in which you arranged for him to come over to the Air Ministry?\nANo.\nQDo you recall that a film was shown in the Air Ministry in September, 1942, having to do with high altitude experiments that were being conducted at Dachau?\nAI can recall a film on high altitude experiments. when it was shown, where it was taken, where it was shot, I do not know any more. A film was shown on high altitude experiments, where one sees what the experimental person does at altitudes of eight thousand meters; and ten thousand meters he can no longer write. I saw such a film, yes.\nQBut you don't remember seeing Dr. Ruff around there.\nARuff I know; Romberg I cannot remember.\nQDo you remember talking to Ruff about this film on the telephone?", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1544, "page_number": "1224", "date": "18 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-18", "text": "AThat is quite possible that I should have talked to Ruff on the quality of the film, on the content of the film.\nQI just asked you if you remember talking to him about it -- about the film.\nAI cannot say whether that was Ruff or somebody else.\nQDid you know a doctor named Rascher?\nANo.\nQNever heard of Rascher?\nAI have heard of him now, yes.\nQJust here for the first time?\nAConsciously I heard Rascher's name only now.\nQDon't you remember when you were in the office that there was a lot of correspondence going back and forth about one Siegmund Rascher, a Luftwaffe doctor?\nANo.\nQNever saw any of that correspondence?\nANo correspondence on Rascher, no.\nQDo you know General Waffen SS Obergruppenfuehrer Karl Wolff?\nAI know his name and I know what he locks like, but I don't know him intimately.\nQDo you know what his job was?\nANo.\nQYou were pretty close to the defendant, weren't you; you were his adjutant.\nAYes, I was his adjutant.\nQAnd you didn't know Wolff was liaison between Himmler and Milch?\nANo. There was no liaison between ourselves and Himmler.\nQThere certainly wasn't any between you and Himmler apparently.\nQ (Continued) You were never a member of the SS, were you?\nANo.\nQOr the SD?\nANo.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1545, "page_number": "1225", "date": "18 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-18", "text": "QThe SA?\nANo.\nQ NSDAP?\nANo.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1546, "page_number": "1226", "date": "18 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-18", "text": "BY MR. DENNEY:\nQYou remember a report which came in on the high altitude experiments?\nAI believe a report came in--which was distributed later on.\nMR.DENNEY: -- go ahead! (pause)\nQDid you prepare a distribution list for it?\nANo, I did not.\nQDo you remember now to whom it went?\nANo to whom it went, no.\nQDo you remember from whom it came?\nAI believe the DVL.\nQWas that the experimental Institute in Berlin?\nAYes.\nQThat was the place where they conducted the experiments for the Luftwaffe, the Luftwaffe experimental station?\nAThe DVL; but we also had these apparatus in our testing stations.\nQDid you know anything about those experiments down at Dachau?\nANo, all that I know is that they made experiments, high altitude experiments, there.\nQDo you remember when they made them?\nANo, I cannot recall the date. It should have been, according to the report, about 42 or 43.\nQDo you remember anything about freezing experiments down there?\nANo.\nMR. DENNEY:No further questions, your Honor.\nBY DR. BERGOLD:\nQWitness, I come back to the report. Did you know that it came from the DVL itself, or from another office, perhaps from Himmler?\nANo, I do not know.\nQHow many reports were you getting, one or two?\nAI believe I received in my office several reports which were distributed later.\nQDid they come altogether, at once?", "speakers": [ "A", "MR.", "MR. DENNEY", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1547, "page_number": "1227", "date": "18 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-18", "text": "AI don't know, anymore.\nQWere you always present when he addressed Luftwaffe engineers, or only on certain occasions? The Prosecution said that as far as Luftwaffe engineers were concerned, it should have been handed over to Himmler for his approval. Were, in fact, the orders given by the DVL or -\nA --not from us; not from the Luftwaffe.\nQYou also said -- you spoke -- about those quarterly reports from Sauckel; did you pass them over to him, to Milch, or to the exports concerned?\nANo, only to the experts concerned.\nDR. BERGOLD:I have no further questions.\n(Pause)\nBY DR. BERGOLD:\nQAs far as the experts were concerned, did you have an order from Milch to arrange this, or where did the order come from?\nANo such order came from the Field Marshal.As far as I can remember I was pushed by these people; there were many who were anxious for the Field Marshal to see their work and approve it. And, thereupon, I said, \"lot's have the film,\" within the framework of the technical conversations?\nQWas Milch certain to be present at such technical conversations?\nANo. Very often he did not turn up.\nQWas he present when the film was shown?\nANot then; certainly not.\nDR. BERGOLD:Thank you. No further questions.\nTHE PRESIDENT:This witness may be excused. The Tribunal will take its usual morning recess.\nTHE MARSHAL:All persons in the court room will rise as the Tribunal leaves. I suggest you remain standing until the members of the Court have left the court room.", "speakers": [ "A", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "Q", "THE MARSHAL" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1548, "page_number": "1228", "date": "18 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-18", "text": "THE MARSHAL:Tribunal Number 2 is again in session.\nDR. BERGOLD:May it please the Tribunal, I would like to call the witness Karl Wolff.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The Marshal will bring the witness Karl Wolff to the courtroom.\nKARLWOLFF, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:\nTHE PRESIDENT:Witness, will you raise your right hand and repeat after me:\nI swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.\n(The witness repeated the oath.)\nTHE PRESIDENT:You may be seated.\nDIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. BERGOLD:\nQ.Witness, I would like to ask you to speak slowly. Furthermore, I would like to ask you to pause shortly after my questions so the interpreters may have time to translate it fully.\nA.Yes.\nQ.Witness, will you give us your first and last name?\nA.My first name is Karl. My last name is Wolff, double \"f\".\nQ.When were you born?\nA. 1900. I was born on the 13th of May 1900.\nQ.What was your rank and position last held within the Wehrmacht or in the Party?\nA.At the end of the war I was SS Obergruppenfuehrer and General of the Waffen SS. My rank was that of commanding general of the Waffen SS. My official position was that of a double Army Commander-in-Chief in Italy, mainly, as highest SS and police Fuehrer or leader in Italy. After September 1943 and after the 26th of July 1944 I was General Plenipotentiary of the German Wehrmacht in Italy. In other words I was a military commander, responsible Commander-in-Chief for the entire German Military Government in Italy. Furthermore, from September 1943 on I was special assistant to the Duce in all questions of the police.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "KARL", "THE MARSHAL" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1549, "page_number": "1229", "date": "18 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-18", "text": "This was upon order of the Fuehrer.\nQWitness, do you know Milch?\nA.Yes, indeed.\nQ.Can you recognize him here?\nA.That is Feldmarschall Milch (indicating).\nDR. BERGOLD:I wish to have the record show that the witness recognizes the defendant.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The record will so show.\nQ.Witness, what was your position before you took over the command in Italy?\nA.May I ask from what year onward you want to know that?\nQ.I am interested, particularly, about the time during the war.\nA.At the beginning of the war, on the 1st of September 1939, I served as liaison officer for the Waffen SS in the headquarters of the Fuehrer, Adolf Hitler. I held that position until the 18th of February 1943. After that, the 18th of February 1943, I became severely ill. Therefore, I had to go to Hohenliechen in order to have a difficult operation. After my rehabilitation, I was used in Italy.\nQ.In your position during the war did you have any official dealings with Mr. Milch?\nA.Yes.\nQ.In what connection?\nA.During peacetime -- that is, from 1933 on, until 1939 - there was good personal cooperation between Milch and me. All difficulties between the Luftwaffe and the SS during peacetime were handled at personal conferences in a very comradely way on this basis. This usage also was retained during the war. However, this was in a somewhat restricted manner because my time as well as that of Marshal Milch was taken up by official business. Therefore, we saw each other more seldom than during peacetime.\nQ.Can your relationship with Milch be considered a friendly one? I ask you this in order to explain the fact that Milch once wrote a letter to you addressing you as \"Dear Wolffie\".", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1550, "page_number": "1230", "date": "18 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-18", "text": "I think, although it would please me, and although I regard this statement an honor even today, I nevertheless have to correct by calling it a good comradeship only which was shown in a gentlemanly way to me by the older man, because he was about nine years older, and I always lagged far behind in military rank. It was meant in a good way, the way he addressed me, \"Dear Wolffie\". That was due to the fact that was my nickname. I used this name during the first world war as a young lieutenant in the Hessian guard infantry regiment, Number 115. Everybody knew me under this nickname, all the other chiefs as well as the general of the infantry Ritter Von Epp, whom I assisted as adjutant for quite a while. Reichsfuehrer SS Himmler also knew me by that name. They all addressed me as \"Wolffie\". So did the highest SS Fuehrers in my branch of service.\nQ.Witness, can you remember in 1941 or 1942 the question of experiments in Dachau on concentration camp inmates were to be carried out and that they started to play an important part?\nA.Yes, indeed. I remember exactly about these experiments.\nQ.Witness, is it correct that in Dachau, apart from these high altitude experiments and all the other medical experiments, additional experiments were carried out?\nA.Yes, indeed. In this connection I made a written statement during my examination in London at the London investigation branch File NR. 1436-B, under date of November 21, 1946, that in Dachau Concentration Camp the SS had a porcelain factory at Allach. That is mentioned explicitly in that statement. The culture works of the SS produce even in peacetime, good porcelain. Furthermore, Damascian knife blades were made there, according to an old German tradition in such a manner as to retain the flexibility of the original Damascian blade. I actually saw the products.\nQ.That is enough, witness.\nA.Furthermore, certain camouflage--screens, jackets, suits, and a number of other items--were manufactured.\nExperiments above all on masters of nutrition.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1551, "page_number": "1231", "date": "18 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-18", "text": "QWitness, what do you know about these experiments, high altitude experiments or freezing experiments? What did you learn about these experiments, witness?\nAThis also is mentioned precisely in the statement which I made and signed the 21st November, 1946. One day, as far as I can remember, I shall make a certain limitation, to the effect I cannot remember the exact date, without taking a look at my soldiers' diary, it was at the end of February, 1942, I believe immediately after the Party Foundation Day in Munich, in 1943, the Reichsfuehrer SS Himmler asked me to take him to what they called the low pressure or high altitude experiments, which were being carried out in Dachau and to accompany him to those experiments.\nQJust one second witness. I would like to point out that the date was 1942 and not 1943.\nA 1942 -- 2\nQThank you.\nADo you wish me to mention everything that is in that statement?\nQNo, that is not necessary. Continue.\nAI accompanied Himmler to these experiments which were carried out on approximately ten inmates; these experiments were carried out in the so-called low pressure chamber, and I witnessed them myself. Respectively, I could observe the experiments through that peeping hole which was placed in those experimental low pressure chambers. As I mentioned in my written statement, these experiments were but by no means difficult indeed. They lasted just a few minutes depending upon the altitude from which point this artificial jump was supposed to be executed, namely, a lower altitude, namely from three thousand meters on, and this extended to about six thousand, nine thousand, eleven thousand, twelve thousand, and as far as I am sure, I can remember thirteen thousand meters was the highest altitude reached. In other words, the whole experiments took one, two or at the utmost three minutes. After about five years now, that happened five years ago, and, therefore, it is very difficult to remember the exact length of time of the experiment, but I am sure this statement is sufficient.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1552, "page_number": "", "date": "18 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-18", "text": "QWitness, what were told with reference to the question of these -1231a people who were being used for these experiments, if they had been ordered or not?", "speakers": [ "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1553, "page_number": "", "date": "18 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-18", "text": "A.Himmler, during our drive from Munich to Dachau Concentration Camp, which is a twenty minute distance from Munich, told me certain things which are also included in my statement, according to which in Dachau a number of concentration camp inmates had volunteered for these experiments, namely, after requests or applications they had made and which they had addressed to the Wehrmacht to get a chance to fight at the front, and after this application of theirs had been disapproved, because of their criminal records, namely, manifold records, which according to the law also included the fact that they could not join the Army. The correctness of this statement was revealed after the experiments had taken place. These inmates required about two minutes in order to recover from these experiments. The inmates, after these experiments, were in full consciousness of their health contribution to the scientific research of this very important field for the German Air Force, and they were very confident, and they asked the Reichsfuehrer SS again that in view of his high position and connection to give them the possibility to fight at the front with the chance of probation, which Himmler promised then, and which actually happened later on. As the Wehrmacht had doubts as to how such people who had such criminal records would act, these inmates were sent to the SS division Turlewanger, which was to test their ability, and which consisted originally of poachers. After that they were actually taken to this division and actually the Capo of these ten inmates, whose name was Sobota, and two further inmates in July 1942, upon a decision of the Reichsfuehrer SS, were released from their captivity and sent to the SS division. If these inmates had had been forced previously to subject themselves to these experiments, namely, as experimental subjects, like guinea pigs, for instance, and if they had been mistreated by these experiments or abused, the Reichsfuehrer SS would never have taken this great risk on his shoulders, that these inmates, namely, the danger existed that these men would join the enemy and would then tell the enemy all about their experiences, and their inhumane treatment. 1232", "speakers": [ "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1554, "page_number": "1233", "date": "18 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-18", "text": "Q.During the conversations you had with the inmates did you ever inquire if they were volunteers or how did you understand that?\nA.The inmates themselves told me that. This also is mentioned in my statement. They said that in my and Himmler's presence.\nQ.Witness, do you know that similar experiments had been carried out by young Luftwaffe doctors?\nA.Yes, Himmler told me that during our ride, or trip, from Munich to Dachau. This also is mentioned in my written statement.\nQ.Did you know Dr. Rascher who was conducting these experiments? Did you know him personally or only by his name?\nA.Dr. Rascher, to the best of my knowledge, I met personally for the first time on this occasion. However, I believe to be able to remember his name and the things in connection with his wife Mimmy, nee Thiel; namely, the connection between her and the Reichsfuehrer SS. I believe I remember these things.\nQ.Witness, do you remember in connection with the transfer of this Rascher that you had correspondence to that effect with Milch?\nA.Yes, indeed I remember that.\nQ.Concerning the carrying out of experiments by the SS, did you ever have any connection with Mr. Milch to that effect? For instance, did you see to it that he agreed as to these experiments?\nA.No.\nQ.Did you ever talk with Mr. Milch concerning these experiments?\nA.May I add to the previous question that in official position as Chief of the Personal Staff of the Reichsfuehrer SS I signed a few things only, namely, one letter once to the Oberstabsarzt Hippke, and later on, I believe in November 1942, an application for a transfer of the Stabsarzt of the Reserve of the Luftwaffe Dr. Rascher to the Waffen SS. These were two of dozens of cases where similar signatures on documents which I had to sign for the Reichsfuehrer-SS were dispatched.\nQ.Now, I would like to know if you spoke personally concerning these experiments with Mr. Milch?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1555, "page_number": "1234", "date": "18 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-18", "text": "A.As I mentioned before, I only saw the Field Marshal very seldom and only occasionally; to the best of my knowledge and recollection I saw the Field Marshal in the latter part of the Summer of 1942. I can't remember the exact date if my diaries are not put at my disposal and I can't be 100% sure about that statement. I believe it was toward the end of August or early September in the Fuehrer's headquarters I spoke to him a very short time. I accompanied him in the meeting, in time running a distance of sixty to eighty minutes to the Fuehrer's bunker. There, after we had discussed our official questions, I inquired about how he was and if everything between the Luftwaffe and the SS was all right. During that occasion we also spoke about these experiments very shortly, if at all, and we spoke of the invaluable help which the SS was giving us by providing these voluntary inmates, which was helping us with our medical material which could be used at the front. However, this was not a long conversation because the Field Marshal alone immediately was called to the Fuehrer's office.", "speakers": [ "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1556, "page_number": "1235", "date": "18 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-18", "text": "Q.During that occasion did they discuss the fact that the concentration camp inmates were ordered to be forced to these experiments?\nA.In the Chancellery we explicitly mentioned that they were volunteering for these experiments and in my written statement I also mentioned that neither Field Marshal Milch nor I were in any way under the impression that they were not volunteering.\nQ.Witness, I would like to submit to you now a letter which you wrote on the 27th of November 1942 to Mr. Milch, at the same time with a draft of a letter of the Reichsfuehrer SS Himmler. Take a look at those two letters.\nDR. BERGOLD:This is a letter, Your Honors. This is Exhibit No. 120 and Exhibit No. 119. The latter one has Document No. 262 and the first, namely, Exhibit No. 120, has No. 268. Both of them are in Document Book 5B of the prosecution.\nA.Excuse me, but I do not know these document numbers. They have different numbers on them.\nQ.Witness, do you remember your letter of the 27th of November?\nMR. DENNEY:Of the Document Book 5B - 179 of Book 5B.\nDR. BERGOLD:It's on page 179, Your Honors.\nTHE WITNESS:According to my book this is --\nDR. BERGOLD:That's all right. It's in the German document book. It doesn't matter.\nTHE WITNESS:The other one is 269.\nA.Yes, I remember these letters, or this letter of the 8th of November. I already saw this letter in London - a photostatic copy of it, that is.\nQ.Do you remember your own letter, witness?\nA.As this is not a photostatic copy of the letter dated 21 November which I have here, I cannot tell for sure. However, I do believe to remember this letter. A photostatic copy would help me to make a definite statement.\nMR. DENNEY:If Your Honor please, I'm not quite clear on what he is talking about because it's --", "speakers": [ "THE WITNESS", "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1557, "page_number": "", "date": "18 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-18", "text": "DR. BERGOLD:This is the letter of the 27th of November, written by the witness to the defendant Milch.\n1235-A", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1558, "page_number": "1236", "date": "18 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-18", "text": "THE PRESIDENT:It appears to be dated November 21, not 27.\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes, Your Honor. 21st, not 27th. Yes, Your Honor.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:Well, the witness mentioned November 8th just a moment ago.\nTHE WITNESS:Well, yes, according to this statement here which I received from this gentleman. This is Document No. 16-117 which says, in the copy \"8th of November\", and according to my recollection, in London, of that photostatic copy which I show, is not clear, so that I thought it was the 3rd of November. However, it is beyond any doubt that in its contents, in the name of the Reichsfuehrer, namely, to transfer Dr. Rascher from the Luftwaffe into the Waffen SS.\nBY DR. BERGOLD:\nQ.You're reading Himmler's letter, aren't you?\nA.This is the first letter that was shown to me on the first of November, namely, the draft, which is the draft of a letter which Himmler, according to my recollection, did not sign himself but which was the basic for a letter of the 21st or 23rd of November, which bears the secret diary number of the Reichsfuehrer-SS, namely, 1426-42, which apparently was written by the assistant in the personal staff of the Fuehrer, at the time SS Oberfuehrer Dr. Rudolf Brandt, and that letter was drafted by that man and was then submitted to me with a number of other letters, or rather files, which had to be signed, or rather was sent to me in the Fuehrer headquarters. As the headquarters at that time was 45 kilometers from there, in Grostgarten in East Prussia. That I did not dictate this letter myself can be seen from the fact that it does not bear my initials, as is my usual habit. Secondly, that Feldkommandestelle is mentioned here as place of origin - in other words, the division where the Reichsfuehrer was, which was not the place of my office and furthermore, on page 3 of the photo copy --\nTHE PRESIDENT:Just a minute. The witness needn't argue your whole case, Dr. Bergold. Is the point that he's making that he did not dictate this letter?\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes, I wanted to know if he remember all these letters and he says, \"It is not my own personal letter.\"", "speakers": [ "THE WITNESS", "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "JUDGE MUSMANNO" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1559, "page_number": "1237", "date": "18 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-18", "text": "That's his argument here.\nTHE PRESIDENT:It was brought to him for signature by somebody else?\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes, that is correct. Dr. Brandt submitted it to him.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Now stop him and go ahead. That point is established. Let's have something else.\nDR. BERGOLD:Very well, Your Honors.\nBY DR. BERGOLD:\nQ.You think that the letter which we just mentioned was set up according the draft of Himmler?\nA.Yes.\nQ.At that time when you signed the letter, did you look through it - or what were you told by the expert? That was Dr. Brandt?\nMR. DENNEY:This is all very confusing. He has two letters and Dr. Bergold keeps talking about \"the letter\". I'd appreciate it if he'd refer to the documents by their number because there is no way of telling what he's talking about.\nDR. BERGOLD:I'm speaking of document no. - just a moment, please - I'm speaking of the Document 269.\nMR. DENNEY: 269.\nDR. BERGOLD:The letter of the witness to Milch. I asked him if he takes it that this letter was written on the basis of Himmler's letter's draft namely, this is the letter 1617 PS. He answered my question in the affirmative.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Please guide us to the page number in the English document book of the other letter - the one you just mentioned.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1560, "page_number": "", "date": "13 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-13", "text": "BY DR. BERGOLD:\nQ.I shall come back to your own letter, namely Document No. 269. Please tell me if you read this letter when you signed it or if you just gave an oral report from this Brandt who worked it out.\n1237A", "speakers": [ "Q." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1561, "page_number": "1238", "date": "18 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-18", "text": "A.It's practically impossible to remember with certainty after four and a half years if I read the entire letter or if I just glanced through it and this occurs mostly when I have to sign so many documents. Dr. Brandt had added on a small piece of paper: \"Please sign concerning the transfer of Dr. Rascher from the Luftwaffe to the Waffen SS.\" As to the previous letter here, it's quite possible that the whole matter was known to me and that, therefore, I just glanced through it and signed it.\nQ.Witness, in your own statement you mentioned the fact that Milch had certain relationship with Himmler. Was that often and regular period of times or did that occur rather seldom?\nA.As I mentioned, my written statement -- was\nTHE PRESIDENT:Just a minute; we didn't get the purport of the question at all.\nA.I asked the witness that during his oral report which namely -- I mean the written report which I submitted to the Court, he mentioned that Milch met Himmler once in a while and that he had a certain relationship to him and I asked him now if that happened often or if seldom or at regular intervals.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Is this what you mean----?\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Did Himmler meet Him frequently?\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes, your Honor.\nA.No, in contrast with the peace-time he met him very seldom and irregularly which fact I also mentioned in my written report.\nQ.Witness, you saw Hitler very often. Can you tell now if Milch belonged to the inner circle Hitler?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1562, "page_number": "", "date": "18 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-18", "text": "A.I do know the so called inner circle of the Fuehrer very well and I have to make three statements here and say that the Field Marshal Milch in spite of his high rank did not belong to this inner circle of the Fuehrer as we people always stayed with the Fuehrer during the well known tea-time or in the evening sometimes for instance, up to three or three thirty or four o'clock. He did not belong 1238A to these people.", "speakers": [ "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1563, "page_number": "1239", "date": "18 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-18", "text": "He was a high ranking officer, however, he did not belong to the inner circle of the Fuehrer.\nQ.In other words, he was not one of Hitler's confidents?\nA.He wasn't in close confidence with Hitler. Of course, his official position gave him a certain privilege. However, it was a limited one, and not without privileges.\nQ.Was Milch often in connection with the other SS Fuehrers? Can you judge that?\nA.Yes, I can judge that. Field Marshal Milch endeavored to be in connection with the other SS Chiefs, namely, the leading and high-ranking people of the SS. He endeavored to be in good contact with these people, and all discrepancies which they could have between the Luftwaffe and the SS, they discussed them in a comradely manner, openly and to solve them in a positive way. Often a frequent or a close contact by the Field Marshal and high-ranking SS officers is not known to me.\nQ.Witness, I have a last question to you. Don't mind if I ask you such a question. When I read your statement I was of the opinion that you suffered a mental damage or a psychological damage and that, therefore, your statement is not quite correct. Did you ever suffer from such an ailment?\nA.In order to answer this question of yours to the full truth I would have to be able to go back somewhat and I would appreciate it if you could possibly tell me -- within the framework of your possibility to tell precisely and not be so nice about it and vague about it. According to the experiences I have had during these 21st months, I have become rather hard and, therefore, it is better if you could tell me exactly who stated something about it or who allegedly made the statement because I love the truth and furthermore, because of my five children or for their sake I would not like to have such an accusation on my shoulders which is not justified and which not explicitly explained by me.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1564, "page_number": "", "date": "18 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-18", "text": "Therefore, I have an interest to clarify this matter or to use a negative manner.\nQ.Witness, it was stated that you became mentally sick and that, therefore, you had been sent to an insane asylum. At least that is the way I understood it.\n1239A", "speakers": [ "Q." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1565, "page_number": "1240", "date": "18 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-18", "text": "A.I have the following to say to this; from the 21 August 1945, on until my birthday, the 13 May 1946 -In other words, for almost nine months I have been detained in the prison -- the Nurnberg Jail -- in solitary confinement, namely, in a cell that is situated in the north part of the building where not one sun-ray reached me. For a period of 15 months I did not get any mail from my wife, from my second wife and my children from the second marriage and therefore, I was worried and I was uncertain as to their present position -- the whole thing was all the more vague to me. I could not understand it and in my official position, both in peace-time and in war-time, was Chief of the Personal Staff of the Reichsfuehrer SS Himmler as well as Liaison Officer for the Waffen SS Headquarters and especially the rank of a Commander-in-Chief of the whole rear area in Italy and the German Military Government. I never committed any offenses which had anything to do with war crimes, which cannot be proved as war crimes or could even be mentioned as war crimes and that I of the Chancellory had faith in the fact that I deserved a lot, first of all, from my own German Fatherland, secondly, for the Italian population which was under my supervision, so as to say, for Switzerland and for the Anglo-American or Allied Troops, namely, the capitulation of Caserta which I actually carried out, took place 29 April 1945 in Caserta which was signed there and according to statements of Field Marshal Alexander the Commander-in-Chief of the entire Mediterranean Theater of Operations, the entire European war was shortened by at least two months. The capitulation of Casserta had actually caused the entire German capitulation. It isn't quite correct that my capitulation took place one week before the entire German capitulation.", "speakers": [ "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1566, "page_number": "", "date": "18 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-18", "text": "It appears to be that the fact that the Alps' Fortifications which I vacated voluntarily which I had joined in an eight months operation with Gauleiter Schaufer, Reiner and the military officers in upper Italy and which I had fortified in 1945 with the latest models with military excavations, then I could have held my position for a long period of time and giving up this fort also reduced the resistance in the northern redoubt of Holstein and Denmark in order that this seemed necessary.\n1240A", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1567, "page_number": "1241", "date": "18 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-18", "text": "Q.Would you get a little closer to the main question?\nA.I went through such horrible things here in this prison, this jail, namely, mental things and I can say inhuman acts - thefts. As an inmate I never received an answer from Col. Andrus, the Commander of the jail, upon my complaints so that at the time the people which I had conversations with in Switzerland in March and April 1945, in other words, before the end of the war, the end of the war, that is, and that I failed there and that I wanted to carry out pacts as everyone who has been in jail nine months, namely, solitary confinement and it is a constant psychosis. I could not describe that.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1568, "page_number": "1242", "date": "18 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-18", "text": "I never was insane, however. I must stress that I, because according to statements which came to my knowledge neither the Fuehrer nor the ReichsFuehrer SS were still alive and could represent the SS, declare myself guilty as well as innocent and that I volunteered to sit as main defendant for my deceased former chief Himmler next to Kaltenbrunner in the dock. I think one cannot show more sacrifice for a good cause in which one has believed for 14 years, and for which one has staked everything. Even the most precious thing one's manly honor. Instead of being called a witness for the SS which would have been my right in the main trial of the IMT, I was declared insane, and was practically deprived of my statement in the IMT trial.\nIf anybody at all had the authority to call me as a witness for crimes which I do not want to minimize and which I am not minimizing today, and for the innocence of the SS before the public I feel entitled to so; from the middle of May'33 I was the right hand man, first, the adjutant and then the chief adjutant, and later on chief of the Office of Personal Staff of Himmler, and finally the first General of the Luftwaffe SS which had been taken from the Waffen---into the German Wehrmacht.\nI believe if I would have been given the opportunity which I asked for, since also later from the hospital, as well as from the prison camp at Neu Ulm for Generals I wrote to the defense counsel for the SS Dr. Babel to call me as a witness and to state the most important full truth, however I was not called as a witness. I therefore asked to be given the opportunity now, here before the world public, to correct what has led to a judicial blunder with respect to the SS organization and will have most serious political consequences for the future.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1569, "page_number": "", "date": "18 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-18", "text": "Q.Witness, this is not the place to make such statements. Would you answer me. You were sent to the insane asylum, what happened then?\nA.There analogous to the treatment which I have just mentioned, I was put in an insane ward, not with one or two cases, or alone as this should have been done in view of my state of exhaustion; they put me together with sixteen fully insane people, in the same ward with paralytics and tuberculosis patients, and these 1242a who had brain injuries, they screamed by day and night at me.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1570, "page_number": "1243", "date": "18 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-18", "text": "This pleased them as the rank of general had been dragged down to the dirt for two years, they thought they could have fun with me. I do not wish to answer all the things that occurred there, but that is the truth, and I care, and I want to prove this in order to explain.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Witness, when were you released from the institution?\nTHE WITNESS:From the institute, from the first insane asylum, which was called the St. Getren in Bamberg, I was transferred after one week to a psychiatric warden of the reserve field hospital in Furth, in the senior school. There I was kept partly with the sane, partly together with other insane till 10 July 1946. I stated all of this in order to prove what can happen even at this Tribunal, which is an example of faultless human right, and I do not dread consequence that generally a whole nation, or, a tribunal should be held responsible.\nBY DR. BERGOLD:\nQ.When were you released as sane?\nA. I was then released as fit for release on 10 June 1942 and sent to New Ulm. And was then on the 27 of June.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Was that 1942?\nBY DR. BERGOLD:\nQ. 1942?\nA.On 27 June 1946, after an officer of the CIC on 23 June had spoken to me, and wanted to check on my sanity, by letting me answer ten questions in writing. In spite of this proof that I was absolutely sane, I was called in for observation of my mental abilities on 27 June 1946 to the reserve hospital Augsburg. There on 15 July 1946 a representative of Dr. Pelkmann, defense counsel, as far as I can remember, and attorney Aschenauer, accompanied by the American CIC Captain Hague, who at the end of the year was active in the main camp PW-8 in Garmisch, visited me, and asked me all sorts of questions in connection with political matters, and questions in connection with the trial. However, it seemed queer he did not admit me as a witness for the SS.", "speakers": [ "THE WITNESS", "Q.", "A.", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1571, "page_number": "1244", "date": "18 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-18", "text": "THE PRESIDENT:Just a minute. Go ahead.\nDR. BERGOLD:That is sufficient. I have no further questions to put to the witness, Your Honor.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Do you want to cross examine the witness, Mr. Denney?\nMR. DENNEY:Yes. Could we adjourn now?\nTHE PRESIDENT:Yes, recess until 1:30.\nTHE MARSHALL:This Tribunal is in recess until 1330 this afternoon.\n(Whereupon recess was taken at 1330 hours, same date).", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHALL", "MR. DENNEY", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1572, "page_number": "1245", "date": "18 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-18", "text": "AFTERNOON SESSION (The Tribunal re-convened at 1350 hours.)\nTHE MARSHAL:Tribunal Number II is again in session.\nKARL WOLFF - Resumed CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. DENNEY:\nQ.Witness, were you a member of the NSDAP?\nA.Yes.\nQ.When did you become a member?\nA.I joined the Party in October 1931, both the NSDAP and the SS.\nQ.And you also remained a member of the Party and of the SS?\nA.Yes, up until the end of the war.\nQ.And over the years your relationship with Himmler became a very close one, did it not?\nA.From 1933 up until the outbreak of war, it was very intimate, daily contacts. From the beginning of the war onwards, from 1 September 1939 until 18 February 1943, we were separated because I was in the Fuehrer's headquarters. I saw Himmler there once a week and talked to him over the telephone or personally.\nQ.You did not go to his speech to the generals of the Waffen-SS which was made in Poszen in October of 1943?\nA.No, sir. I was then in Italy, fighting and did not take part in the meeting as I can prove.\nQ.Did you ever see a copy of that speech?\nA.To the best of my knowledge and remembrance, no.\nQ.Did any of your brother SS officers ever report to you what Himmler said about you at that speech?\nA.No.\nQ.You were the Supreme SS officer in Italy?\nA.Yes.\nQ.Starting in 1943, when?\nA.Yes, from 9 September 1943.\nQ.Until what date?\nA.Up until I was taken prisoner on 13 May 1945.", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "A.", "Q." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1573, "page_number": "1246", "date": "18 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-18", "text": "Q.And as such you had complete power over all SS and police units in Italy?\nA.Yes.\nQ.Do you know a man named Harster?\nA.No. Do you mean the SS Obergruppenfuehrer and Lieutenant General of the Security Police Officer Wilhelm Harster?\nQ.Did you know him?\nA.Yes, of course. After all he was my subordinate officer and commanding officer of the Security Police in Italy.\nQ.Did you know a man named Kappler, who was under him?\nA.Yes, of course. He was formerly police attache with the German Embassy in Rome, and after the so-called Bodoglio surrender, he was handed over to me as he knew Rome best of all, and there he became the commander of the Security Police in Rome and was, as such, under me.\nQ.The Italian capitulation, the so-called Bodoglio capitulation, occurred in, roughly, August of 1943?\nA.As far as I remember, the secret surrender, which was kept a secret from the German Axis partner, was 1 September, and the application of the surrender was announced on 8 September.\nQ.And after that Kappler came up to Rome, where he was chief of Police under you?\nA.He was chief of the Security Police in Rome, and, as such, was subordinate directly and immediately to SS Obergruppenfuehrer Dr. Harster, the commander of the Security Police in Italy, who in turn was my subordinate.\nQ.You were the top SS man in Italy?\nA.Yes, that is correct.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1574, "page_number": "1247", "date": "18 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-18", "text": "A.You told the Court that you had been a good SS man and that you were proud of everything that the SS had done; that they were a fine organization.\nA.I am sorry, I did not hear the beginning of the sentence, only the end.\nQ.You told the Court that you were a good SS man and that you were proud of everything that the SS had done during the war.\nA.Yes, what the SS did under my orders and under my responsibility.\nQ.And you were responsible for whatever they did down in Italy during the period September '43 to April '45?\nA.Of course I admit that I am responsible in that sense and to the same extent as Field Marshal Alexander is responsible for the Italian theater of war and should be made responsible for every single mistake, every single offense committed by people, by Allied troops under his command.\nQ.That is what they made you a general of the Waffen-SS for, wasn't it, to be responsible?\nA.Yes, that is correct.\nQ.You remember an incident that took place at the Ardeatime Caves on 24 March 1944?\nA.Yes, I do.\nDR. BERGOLD:May it please the Court, I made every effort to make it quite clear now what purpose Mr. Denney has with these questions. I stated before that within the framework of cross examination the usual thing is to put questions which really belong to the original interrogation. Incidents in Italy have, in my opinion, nothing to do with the present trial -- nothing at all. The credibility of a witness can be tested in another manner. In particular it needn't be tested by discussing incidents which have nothing to do with the material under review. I therefore protest against this manner of cross examining and I leave it to the wisdom of the Court to find out about that.\nMR. DENNEY:If Your Honor please, this man has told the Court what a fine organization this is that he represented. Dr. Bergold let him continue at length on direct examination, a long tale as to how he was the best man to speak for the SS and wasn't allowed to do it, and he may have left the impression with the Court that this SS to which he belonged was, in fact, some sort of an aid society.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1575, "page_number": "1248", "date": "18 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-18", "text": "He has told where he was, and I submit that I am allowed to interrogate him as to how it happened in some of the places where he had the command.\nDr. BERGOLD: May it please the Court -\nTHE PRESIDENT:I am about to rule. Of course your philosophy, Mr. Denney, is that two wrongs make a right, because without your objection the witness wandered off into immaterial fields on direct examination, he ought to have the same latitude on cross examination. Logically, this position is not defensible. On the other hand we are - well, call it arbitrarily, if you wish, going to give the witness, and give you, some latitude, within limitations, in inquiring as to this defendant's background, having in mind that we are not here trying the SS.\nBY MR. DENNEY:\nQ.Do you know how many people were killed in the Ardeatime Caves?\nA.Yes, about 335, and if I may say something about this -\nTHE PRESIDENT:No, don't. Just answer the questions.\nTHE WITNESS:Yes, 335, roughly.\nBY MR. DENNEY:\nQ.Some of them were Jews?\nA.As I remember it, I heard about this only after the end of the war, as far as I remember, and to the best of my conscience.\nDR. BERGOLD:May it please the Court, I still can't see what that has to do with my trial. Did I misunderstand the Court's ruling?\nTHE PRESIDENT:The Court's ruling was that this line of questioning would be permitted within very definite limitations and not permitted to go too far. One of the reasons for the ruling is that you yourself permitted the witness to wander into strange fields, and as we say in America, \"Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.\"\nTHE WITNESS:Personally I have no objections, for my conscience is completely clean in this particular matter.\nBY MR. DENNEY:\nQ.You never heard anything about this affair until after the war was over?\nA.Yes; yes.", "speakers": [ "THE WITNESS", "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1576, "page_number": "1249", "date": "18 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-18", "text": "Q.And you didn't go to Rome on the 25th of March, 1944?\nA.I flew to Rome, and I said -- perhaps I may point out what I said in London -\nQ.Tell me what you remember. I don't want you to read to me.\nA.I only want to give the number to avoid misunderstandings. This is record 1338B of 7 September 1946. Everything is contained in there, but I shall be glad to tell it from my memory. The reprisal measures taken in the case Ardeatime near Rome were taken only -\nQ.Wait. The only question that is now pending is whether he went to Rome on a certain date. Answer that question. Did you go to Rome on the 25th of March, 1944?\nA.As far as I know, as far as I can remember, probably even on 24 March. Probably on 24 March, possibly on 25 March. In the evening I arrived from Verona by air to Viterbo on the day, on the eve of the official funeral of the 32 or 33 victims of this foul attack made by people on a police troop which had the order to look after law and order in this open city of Rome and to protect the Vatican.\nQ.So you got there on the 24th or the 25th?\nA.Yes, that is correct.\nQ.And did you cause any investigation to be made of this incident? You can answer that very simply. Did you cause any investigation to be made of this incident?\nA.No, because I was not competent at that time, for the unit which had carried out the reprisal measure, or which had been the victim of the attempt was exclusively under the command of the commandant of the General of the Luftwaffe, Meltzer, who already has been sentenced to death, as well as the C-in-C of the 14th Army, also sentenced to death, Col. General von Mackensen. If I had anything to do with it, I would have been called into that trial myself.\nQ.You didn't do anything about it; the answer is no, is that right?\nA.No. As I said, I was not competent.\nQ.Now turning to these letters that you had to do with, some of which you addressed -- were addressed to you and some of which were signed by you to Dr. Rascher -- Dr. Bergold, I wonder if you could give him Document No.NO-308Will you get it from Dr. Bergold, please?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1577, "page_number": "1250", "date": "18 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-18", "text": "The letter of 16 April 1942 to Hippke. It is Page 9 in Document Book 5-A.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:Witness, I will not prolong the episode which you just testified to, but I would like to put one question only. As commanding general of the SS troops in Italy, when you arrived in Viterbo and learned of this incident, could you have ordered an investigation even though the area directly involved was under the jurisdiction of General von Mackensen?\nTHE WITNESS:No, I wouldn't have been in a position to do so. No. And may I add that when I arrived in Viterbo the sentence had been carried out. I was faced with facts when I arrived.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:You say the reprisals had already been committed?\nTHE WITNESS:Everything had happened before I even arrived at Viterbo. May I ask about this letter, about this document which has been given to me? May I also see a photostatic copy, because on this copy I cannot see the important evidence, my initials, also notes which are very important for me.", "speakers": [ "THE WITNESS", "JUDGE MUSMANNO" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1578, "page_number": "1251", "date": "18 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-18", "text": "MR. DENNEY:We don't seem to have a photostatic copy here, on the English copy there is a note up in the upper right hand corner which says:\nDR. BERGOLD:There should be a copy with the Secretary General.\nAIt is very important for me that I see the photostatic copy because I need it; from there I can see the really important data. It was shown to me once before in London; it should be available.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Shall we send for it?\nAI would be very grateful.\nMR. DENNY:If it is not too much trouble, I would appreciate having it.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Will the Secretary General get that document, please.\nMR. DENNEY: NO. 318.\nBY MR. DENNEY: (Continuing)\nQPerhaps you can turn the letter which you have admitted signing to Milch, dated 21 November 1942, or 27 November 1942, as the case may be, in which--Page 179 of Document Book. 5 A, Your Honors.\nAYes.\nQAt the beginning of the second paragraph you state-- the research is concerned with the reaction of the human organism at great heights and with the symptoms brought on by cooling the human body by immersion in cold water for a long period; and similar problems particularly necessary for the Luftwaffe can be carried out especially efficiently in our organization because the Reich Fuehrer SS has accepted the responsibility for supplying death deserving social persons and criminals in the concentrations camps for these experiments. What do you regard as social criminals who could probably be made the subject of one of these experiments?", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "MR. DENNY", "MR. DENNEY", "Q", "A" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1579, "page_number": "", "date": "18 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-18", "text": "ADid you ask me with regard to death deserving criminals and a social character?\nQYes.\nAI should say first, I am not a general police, certainly not of the Security police, neither am I in the civil service in the ministry of justice; I am 1251 a only an active soldier.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1580, "page_number": "1252", "date": "16 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-16", "text": "In my lay-man opinion I can only say that I can only see a criminal as one with so many offenses to his record, who has committed crimes deserving death.\nQ.Then, if they survived these experiments you would put them into the Wehrmacht; if they would survive the experiments, did you?\nA.It is his business if he volunteers for these things, in the interest of the fatherland, his own motives. Everybody obeys his own instinct; either you risk your life, or as a slacker, you remove yourself from your patriotic duty. That is the same in all countries and in this case in Germany. These death deserving and asocial persons had the decency to put their lost life at the disposal of the Fatherland, and thereby win the honor to fight cleanly and freely at the front.\nQ.Now, when was Rascher transferred to the Waffen SS; do you recall?\nA.As far as I recall, not when I was in office, for I said this morning that on 18 February 1943; I fell ill suddenly, fell ill so suddenly that I could not travel and had to undergo a serious operation and I believe to recall that after that time the transfer, I believe that up to that time the transfer of Rascher from the Luftwaffe to the Waffen SS had not happened yet. That becomes clear from my statement in the record also.\nQ.Going back to this paragraph we have just read, you used the term \"asocial persons and criminals\" and it seems to me that the definition you have given us is one of criminals. What is the difference between them?\nA.Well, as I said before, I am not a member of the security police nor am I a legal expert. I cannot speak about the legal aspects here. I could imagine here that a criminal -- I'd much rather not give the definition here which would he inadequate because I am not an export.\nQ.Is an asocial person referred to as a Jew or a foreigner; could it mean a Jew or a foreigner?\nA.I believe that in every country, in every race, there are good and bad elements, and,therefore, the question of the prosecutor does concern probably all nations and all races.\nBY THE PRESIDENT:", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1581, "page_number": "1253", "date": "16 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-16", "text": "QWitness, the prosecutor wanted to know what you meant when you wrote these words in this letter.\nAJust a moment, I have to say this about my letter --\nQNow stop.\nAYes.\nQJust answer the question: When you used the words in this letter death deserving and asocial persons, did you mean Jews and foreigners?\nAI did not dictate that letter myself, and as I said once before -\nQI understand that you say you did not write the letter, but you signed it.\nAYes.\nQAnd it is your work and phrase, it's your words; what did you mean by those words when you signed the letter?\nAI said that probably I did not read the letter in detail and, therefore, this question is quite unnecessary. I made no searching investigation whether there were foreigners or Jews, and I could take the easy way out and say simply in this case no; but my conscience and oath demands from me that I do not believe that I read the letter carefully; as I said this morning; and I did not think about this point of Jews and foreigners; it did not occur to me.\nTHE PRESIDENT:That answers it.\nBY MR. DENNY:\nQWe now have the photostatic copy, No. 318, Your Honors.\n(No. 318 handed to witness) Have you read it?\nAYes, I have read it.\nQDid you write it?\nAI have signed it; it came from Obersturnbannfuehrer Sievers; it was submitted to me for my signature, and I had no misgivings to sign it as it was purely concerned with the prolongation of an order which started before I took over office.", "speakers": [ "A", "THE PRESIDENT", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1582, "page_number": "1254", "date": "13 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-13", "text": "Q.All right; now, the letter of 20 May, 1942, which is on page 19 in the document book 5-A; that is the letter of 20 May 1942, to you from the defendant. Page 19 in the English Document Book, and I don't know the page in the German book. 343 A PS. In this letter it speaks about a telegram of 12 May; do you recall that telegram?\nA.Yes, I do.\nQ.Do you remember its contents?\nA.I believe that it was a telegram to Field Marshal Milch requesting the prolongation of the orders of Rascher's in the low pressure chamber. I did not myself send that telegram or see it myself; it was sent by Dr. Brandt, the personal expert of the Reich Fuehrer SS, without my knowledge, nor was it signed by me. In any case this document submitted to me now, the reply of Field Marshal. Milch to me has not been initialed by me; all others have my initial \"W\", with the green pencil. Therefore, I can prove that I never saw the outgoing telegram which was an urgent telegram from Himmler's headquarters to Milch which are 45 kilometers apart, nor the reply which is quite clearly shewn by the stamp on Milch's letter dated 20 May. I said so in detail on 21 November, 1946, in London.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1583, "page_number": "1255", "date": "18 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-18", "text": "Q.We then turn to Exhibit No. 261, which is about six pages later, on page 24 in the same English Document Book. It is a letter dated June 4, 1942. Now, if Your Honors please, it is Exhibit 89.\nA.Unfortunately, it is not here in my book -- I cannot find it.\nQ.It is No. 261 - Exhibit 89.\nA. Thank you.\nQ. Did you receive that from Field Marshall Milch?\nA.The Document, which has just been handed to me, I did not see to the best of my knowledge and conscience, nor was it shown to me in connection with the documents which were identified as complete in London. It was probably sent to SW-11, I was not present in the Headquarters of the Reichefuehrer SS and I was not present then.\nQ.You never saw that letter?\nA.To the best of my knowledge and belief, no. Would the Prosecution/perhaps submit me the photostatic copy and not purely a copy so that I can see my own initials on the Document as then I can say with 100% certainty as I would like to give my answer with 100% certainty.\nQ.The photostatic copy of Exhibit 89, Your honor, is submitted to the witness.\nYou will recall your letter to Field Marshall Milch, Exhibit 118, No. 239. Did you receive a letter from a man named Horff Von Horff, an SS Brigadefuehrer Major General of the Waffen SS shortly before that?\nA.May I see that Document please? Also tell me how the name of the SS Brigadefuehrer is spelt.\nQ.The name is von Horff.\nA.Before November 27th? The 23rd or 27th of November perhaps?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1584, "page_number": "", "date": "18 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-18", "text": "Dr. Bergold, I cannot see my way through your files as my thumb has been hurt. I cannot find the photostatic copy of the Document.\nQ.I am just inquiring if you received a letter from von Herff?\nA.I seem to remember, without a photostatic copy, I can hardly say I think it is possible, but I cannot say with certainty. If I see a photostatic copy I can give an answer with 100 certainty.\nQ.Unfortunately, I do not have a photostatic copy of it, so I cannot show 1255(a) it to you.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1585, "page_number": "1256", "date": "18 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-18", "text": "A.I am extremely sorry to cause so much trouble to the Prosecution, but after all those things are important. Please what is the date?\nQ.November 25th.\nA.Yes, I now have the letter .. I have read it.\nQ.Have yon received the letter?\nA.Yes.\nQ.I will read it now:\n\"Today I received your letter, addressed to General Field Marshall Milch in matters of experiments for the aviation, carried out by SS Untersturmfuehrer Dr. Rascher. At the occasion of a visit to Dachau, I personally had the opportunity to meet Dr. Rascher and to familiarize myself, strictly and confidentially , with his experiments. I am happy about your letter to General Field Marshall Milch and I agree emphatically to the opinion of the Reichsfuehrer SS in every way. The misconception of the importance of those experiments for tho Luftwaffe is simply incomprehensible, as they save0 the lives of so many of our gallant fliers.\n\"Following your letter, there is no immediate action for me to take for the time being, but I'll gladly intervene as the Reichsfuehrer SS desires. We absolutely have to have Dr. Rascher released in tho interests of our SS Schutstaffel and also of our flying comrades.\n\"With cordial greetings and Heil Hitler, Yours, V. Horff.\"\nWhat was he talking about in that letter as being strictly confidential and the misconception of the importance of the of the experiments as they save the lives of so many of your gallant fliers?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1586, "page_number": "", "date": "18 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-18", "text": "A.No doubt Dr. Rascher was given orders by Himmler, not when I was present, but during one of his talks, to treat these experiments strictly confidential. Strictly confidential is a different thing from \"Top Secret\" and that is an important linguistic point. It should be strictly confidential, which was observed. I can find nothing the matter with that. Equally obvious it seems to me is the fact that the experiments -- the high altitude experiments for which innocent doctors of the Luftwaffe volunteered should now be carried on by volunteers from concentration camps, who thereupon found their release from the concentration camps and they are allowed probationally to serve at the front.\n1256(a) May I point out, because the Prosecution does not possess of this letter a photostatic copy, that this is the only letter in the entire correspondence which contains definitely my \"W\". This letter I really saw myself.", "speakers": [ "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1587, "page_number": "1257", "date": "18 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-18", "text": "It is the only one.\nQ.How many of these letters did you really see?\nA.I surely saw that one and perhaps I can show to the Prosecution my \"W\" which is the initial I always put on a letter, which I actually saw myself.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1588, "page_number": "1258", "date": "18 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-18", "text": "A.A lot of people were writing to you and you did not see any of the letters, is that right?\nA.As one reached Himmler's field headquarters and especially when these letters were sent out only with my signature, because the Reichsfuehrer SS was an important office,and,they, wrote to people in equally high positions of equal rank and these letters were signed by me as the chief of his personal staff.\nQ.You were the liaison man between Himmler and Milch in these medical experiments; were you not?\nA.No, that is not correct in the way you put it because a liaison officer would mean that I completely and entirely was constantly informed on the material of those experiments then I would have worked in a responsible position. That I can prove is not the case. For a period of about a year I really only sent one letter to Hippke and that was since 1942, and then the letter to Field Marshall Milch of the 25th or 27th of November, 1942, both of which I signed myself, otherwise nothing. I was purely a signing officer, but not an expert and it is said here I was an export on the matters.\nQ.Did you ever have anything to do with deportation of Italians to Germany?\nA.I recall vaguely and I believe it was in September of 1943, September or maybe October, in the early stages when I was assigned in Italy, but was not experienced yet.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1589, "page_number": "", "date": "18 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-18", "text": "An order came from Berlin, as I recall it, from Himmler, that Jews in Italy should be deported to the Reich. As I recall it, from Himmler, that Jews in Italy should be deported to the Reich. As I recall it, a total of about 1,050 Jews were taken from the whole of Italy, surely not a big percentage and not a very big figure, according to the order of the security police. They were collected by the command of the Security Police and in accordance with the order were taken to the Reich.\nQ.Do you over recall seeing an order from Himmler, having to do with the substitution of Poles for Jewish labor? People taken out of occupied Poland, particularly for use in armament firms?\nA.To the best of knowledge and belief, I cannot recall at all 1258(a) an order to concentrate on a matter where Poles should have been substituted or employed.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1590, "page_number": "1259", "date": "18 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-18", "text": "Q.Do you recall having anything to do with the famous picture, known as \"Adam and Eve\" when you were in Italy? Do you recall a telegram from Himmler about that?\nA.I recall the incident very well of the two world famous paintings \"Adam and Eve\" which, as I think, were originally located at tho Ufficiae in Florence, I cannot recall, a telegram of Himmler in this connection. I remember , however, apart from these paintings 600 further world famous paintings by Tizian, Raffael, Boticolli. The most famous creation cf the Ufficiae which I saved on my own initiative from shall fire and which I prevented from being transported to Switzerland, as the Duce wished, and from being transported to Germany as some German Departments wished.\nQ.You put them under German protection; did you not?\nA.As a trustee and that is how I regarded myself when I was the highest SS officer in Italy, my art experts SS Standartenfuehrer Dr. Alexander Langsdorff and Professor Reidemeister, who worked under me in my military administration, I said take those pictures and put then under the protection of my trusteeship. Not a single one was missing when we capitulated in Italy, just as nothing was missing from the collection of gold coins of the King Of Italy, which represented the value of some one hundred million lire and they were untouched when taken over by the Americans.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Need you ask him anymore about his activities in Italy? We will have the answer following the recess. (A recess was taken.)", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1591, "page_number": "1260", "date": "13 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-13", "text": "THE MARSHAL:Tribunal Number 2 is again in session.\nQWitness, will you turn to Document 1317 PS, which is page 145 of Your Honor's Document Book 5-B. It is Exhibit No. 111, Dr. Bergold, Now, incidentally, Witness, when you were in London in November you were given copies of many of these documents, were you not?\nAYes, November 1948.\nQBy Colonel McClellan?\nAI got hold of a number of documents which/I mentioned or which preceded that written statement of mine.\nQAnd, you had ample time to go over them over there?\nAIn November, yes.\nQWill you turn to page 111 of Document 1617 PS, I think the soldier has just given it to you; did you ever see that letter before?\nATo the best of my knowledge and belief, I did not see it. I believe that this document which has just been submitted to me is the draft of the letter which Dr. Rascher submitted to the Reichsfuehrer for his signature, and sent it to Fieldmarshal Milch. This letter, Himmler had already started to correct it in its original, and among other things he erased this sentence, in the first and second lines, \"You will recall that through SS Obergruppenfuehrer Wolff particularly recommends to you for your consideration the work of a certain Dr. Rascher, who is a physician of the Air Force on leave.\" He crossed out here, \"through SS Obergruppenfuehrer Wolff\". He wanted to show that, it could clearly be seen from the photostatic copy, that not I told Fieldmarshal Milch who Dr. Rascher was. I only twice sent a promulgation of a report which had already taken place on 16 April 1942 to Hippke, and a half a year later, toward the end of November, the letter to Fieldmarshal Milch concerning the transfer of Rascher from the Luftwaffe to the SS, but I never recommended Rascher' s work to Fieldmarshal Milch.\nQNow, then later in the letter he refers to \"non-Christian physicians.\" That is down in paragraphs 2, 4, 6, 7. At the end of the paragraph, \"I suggest that the liaison between you and Wolff and nonChristian physicians should be----\"1260 A A (Interposing) Yes, yes, yes, indeed! I knew that at that time I did not see the draft because it was never presented for the signature nor for sending it, but only the writer--in other words, the chief secretary of the Reichsfuehrer, Dr. Brandt, was an accurate basis for that letter which I wrote to Milch, in the second half of November.", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1593, "page_number": "1261", "date": "18 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-18", "text": "QThen, turning to that other letter, the one which you wrote to Milch, page 179, Exhibit 118, the one we were talking about before. This is the second paragraph in the letter. I think it is on the second page of the German original, the second paragraph from the top.\nAYes.\nQThe part where he does not wish that you and he should become angry about the developments. He is of the opinion that it will take at least another decade until we eliminate such narrow mindedness from our people. What were you talking about in that letter narrow mindedness?\nAI already mentioned that I did not set up the letter myself. I just signed the letter myself, and probably as I mentioned this morning, I just glanced through it. Maybe I just signed it without having glanced at it, without having read it, due to the fact there was a small slip attached to it; therefore, I am very sorry not to be able to answer this question.\nQYou may not have known what was in the letter at all?\nAYes, indeed, that is possible. I do not ascertain that, however, as Dr. Brandt mentioned, who is in the prison jail, according to my opinion, I am sure Dr. Brandt will testify to the effect that he used to present all these letters which were not drawn up by myself, but which had to be signed by me, that he would just submit them to me in order to facilitate my work. He would use a small slip of paper for that work. I want the Prosecution and Tribunal to remember that Dr. Brandt for a period of ton years was Himmler's right-hand, and in these ten years there was not one single case of abuse of Brandt toward me, and I could not sign the amount of signatures that had to be signed daily, and it is not possible that I could have signed all these letters, and glance through them at the same time.\nQWhat was the name-", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1594, "page_number": "1262", "date": "18 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-18", "text": "A (Interposing) I cannot see anything negative in that.\nQWhat was the name of your particular assistant, Captain Heckenstaller, was it?\nAHeckenstaller, yes, indeed.\nQAnd, as far as you recall now you never got any advice that the pressure chamber was going to remain in Dachau for an additional two months period?\nAMay I ask the Prosecution when I heard, that or whether I was not to have heard that, and at what time?", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1595, "page_number": "1263", "date": "18 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-18", "text": "Q.I say, as far as you can recall now?\nA.Yes.\nQ.You never knew that the pressure chamber was to remain available for experiments for an additional two months period?\nA.Yes. Pardon me, but when was that application to be made with the low pressure chamber to be kept there for two more months? We have a letter later on, from November that I take it, that the Prosecutor maybe means something that happened in the summer or perhaps in the spring.\nQ.I am going back to the spring, sometime in May or June.\nA.According to the best of my knowledge and belief, I cannot remember having heard anything in that respect, because all this correspondence I have not seen, and that I did not see.\nQ.You only went to Dachau once in February 1942 with Himmler?\nA.In this the experimental business, yes.\nQ.Do you remember any other time in 1942 when these experiments were going on?\nA.No, at no other time was I there when they had experiments; only I had been in Dachau several times, namely, in peacetime. In other words, I was there accompanying Himmler in order to convince myself everything was in order, was clean, and that the food was good, and that the health of the inmates was good. However, never at any other time did I participate in experiments on human beings, or had anything to do with it.\nQ.You never heard of any deaths in connection with the Dachau experiments?\nA.No, only now after the capitulation.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Did you find that the food was good and that the health of the inmates good at Dachau?\nTHE WITNESS:Yes, indeed. It was so clean that one could actually cat off the floor. The inmates were all very well fed, as well as the people of the Curate of the Catholic and Protestant Church, who were in termed there stated that five years of Nazi concentration camp is about the same as one year in an internment camp after the capitulation.", "speakers": [ "THE WITNESS", "Q.", "A.", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1596, "page_number": "1264", "date": "18 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-18", "text": "Q.What was the date of your visit?\nA.The last time according to my recollection, that was the Spring 1939, I did make this statement, and during one of my former visits there, as precisely as possible.\nQ.The last time that you were at Dachau was in 1939?\nA.Mr. President, it is practically impossible without this diary of mine, but if I had my diary I would be able to tell you with one hundred per cent certainty, as I know, however, the whole correspondence of the Reichfuehrer-SS and of his people--of his personnel staff is in the Huff Hauser; it was found in the Huff Hauser and my official diary should also be there, the diary until 18 February 1943.\nQ.Was your last visit at Dachau after the war started?\nA.Just a moment. According to the best of my knowledge, in November 1939, on the occasion of the activating of the so-called Deathhead Division, Totenkopf Division, which was the Third Motorized SS Division, and the French campaign, which was put into action for the first time under command of Obergruppenfuehrer Eicke-\nQ.Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Did you not say that you went there with Himmler to observe the high altitude experiments?\nA.Yes, what I just said now was in no connection with the high altitude experiments which I had mentioned. Of course, I did participate in this high altitude experiment.\nQ.Then you were in Dachau in 1942?\nA.Yes, of course.\nQ.Well, now, when you went over there in 1942, were the inmates well fed, and healthy? That was your last visit, was it?\nA.Yes, that was my last visit in Dachau, indeed.\nQ.At that time you found the floor clean enough to eat on, and the inmates were well fed and healthy, and they told you so?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1597, "page_number": "1265", "date": "18 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-18", "text": "A.Yes, because they had the work, and as everyone knows, one can only work if fed accordingly.\nMR. DENNEY:No further questions.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Mr. Denney, will you explain an exhibit, I think it is No. 111, a draft of a letter, Document No. 1617-PS, which purports to be a letter which was drafted by Rascher, and sent to Hitler. -to Himmler to be signed by him, and forwarded to Milch through the channel -- or purported channel.\nMR. DENNEY:That is what this witness said, Your Honor.\nTHE PRESIDENT:It is not signed.\nMR. DENNEY:No, Your Honor, this copy that we have was taken from Himmler's files, and it was put in evidence in the first case, and we have never been able to find the original.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Is it your impression that it was drafted and prepared by Rascher?\nMR. DENNEY:I don't know, sir. I don't know who prepared it. All we know it was in Himmler's files, just as it is stated, and then it is the other exhibit 118, letter dated 21 or 27 November 1942, which the witness sent to Milch, which is substantially the same with some changes. That is as close as we have been able to account.\nTHE PRESIDENT:In any event, it is doubtless natural that Himmler would write such a letter to Milch.\nMR. DENNEY:Yes, to Milch, Your Honor.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Who intended it for him?\nMR. DENNEY:Who intended it or drafted it, we don't know.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:Witness, I understand you to say that you were in Dachau in 1942?\nA.Yes, indeed.\nQ.And you got a fairly good view of the camp, of the entire camp?\nA.We journeyed through the camp very slowly as usual, and we went straight to that low pressure chamber, which was set up in front of the inmates barracks, from which those inmates volunteered for these experiments.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "THE PRESIDENT", "MR. DENNEY", "JUDGE MUSMANNO" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1598, "page_number": "1266", "date": "18 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-18", "text": "At that time we did not visit the whole camp, because we were mostly interested in these experiments.\nQ.You have already testified of theextremely immaculate condition of the camp?\nA.Yes.\nQ.Did you also visit the extermination sections of Dachau?\nA.I learn for the first time here that there was an extermination division in Dachau, Your Honor.\nQ.You did not know of the crematory in Dachau when you were there in 1942?\nA.No. How was I to know that?\nQ.Yes. You knew that the floors were clean enough to eat from, but you did not know -\nA.Yes.\nQ. (continuing) -- that they were killing people by the hundreds, or thousands in gas chambers, and then cremating them there right on the premises. You did not know that?\nA.No, indeed.\nQ.But you did know of this extreme purity of the floors on which one could have his dinner.\nA.Yes, that is for this reason, Your Honor, because I thought of it myself, as I was in the barracks with these inmates at this time, inside of the barracks, and some distance from the barracks a pressure chamber, and there were clean places on the floor where they could dress. I took a look at these barracks, in other words, these barracks where they slept, and the toilets, and the washing facilities in these barracks, that is how I know it.\nQ.And you know nothing about the crematory there at Dachau?\nA.No, I don't.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:Very well.\nDR. BERGOLD:May it please this Tribunal, concerning the truthfulness of this witness, I would like to state that as far as I am informed, these crematories were only set up later on, in other words, not in 1942, not already from the very beginning, Your Honor, were the crematories in the concentration camp of Dachau or in any other concentration camp set up, and one should not consider the final situation of this development compared with the early status of this camp, or with the status to which it was a submittal.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "JUDGE MUSMANNO" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1599, "page_number": "1267", "date": "18 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-18", "text": "Personally I have no further questions of the witness.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Dr. Bergold, in 1942 the war had been in progress three years. The invasion of Poland and the Russian campaign had started.\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes, correct. Early in 1942 the Russian campaign had been going on for half a year. I have no further questions of the witness,your Honor.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The witness may be removed.\nTHE WITNESS:May I ask you one more question, if this Tribunal is of the opinion that the assumption of the statement that I was mentally sick is correct or not, because it is of great importance to me that this be cleared completely. This statement here that I made, I want to know if it is taken into consideration, and if it is valid, or not?", "speakers": [ "THE WITNESS", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1600, "page_number": "1268", "date": "18 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-18", "text": "THE PRESIDENT:Witness, this Court has no authority or right to determine the question which you ask, officially. My colleagues and I are willing to state, however, for your consolation, that your attitude on the stand, the readiness with which you answer questions, the ease with which you understand what is being said, and answer any inquiries, persuades us, personally, that you are an intelligent, sound-minded nan.\nTHE WITNESS:Thank you very much.\n(The witness was excused.)\nDR. BERGOLD:May it please this Tribunal, for today I have nothing at all to state. I have neither a document nor a witness, and therefore could you postpone it until tomorrow? However, I do have a request. From those witnesses which were granted me, quite a number of important witnesses have not been transported to Nurnberg as yet, in particular, the witness Vorwald, who, for a long period of years, was the closest cooperator of the defendant and who could clarify most of the points; who, so to say, was a sort of deputy to the defendant and I would appreciate it very much if this Tribunal itself would make the suggestion that the transportation of this witness to Nurnberg be expedited.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Where is the witness new, Dr. Bergold?\nDR. BERGOLD:According to the last news which I received, I understood he was in British captivity in the so-called Muenster Camp of the Lueneburger Heide.\nTHE PRESIDENT:How far is that from Nurnberg?\nDR. BERGOLD:It is approximately the same distance -- if you know Hanover, Your Honors -- I don't know if you do -- it is approximately the distance from here to Hanover. It is on the way from Berlin to Hamburg,that is called the Lueneburger Heide.\nTHE PRESIDENT:You say he is in the British Zone?\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes, indeed; as far as I know; that is, in British captivity.", "speakers": [ "THE WITNESS", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1601, "page_number": "1269", "date": "18 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-18", "text": "I mentioned all that to the Secretary General. Thereupon at that time, I was granted permission to bring the witness to Nurnberg. After I had stated all that exactly.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The Tribunal has approved this witness?\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes. Yes, after I had made that announcement that he was in Muenster Camp.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Well, we have already arranged for tomorrow's program taking the depositions of several witnesses. Do you have anybody ready now to call on Thursday morning?\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes, indeed. Herr Oberst Brauchitsch, and I could also get the witness, General Warlimont, but I would have to speak to the latter two; these witnesses however have been transferred to Nurnberg by the prosecution as witnesses or defendants and therefore I'd like to speak to them, in the presence of a commissioner.\nTHE PRESIDENT:You could do that tomorrow.\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes; I could do it tomorrow, but tomorrow I have my session here.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Well, your session shouldn't take all day.\nDR. BERGOLD:No, I don't think so; not all day. I believe we will be through in the morning.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Well, then in the afternoon you could consult those witnesses.\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes, I could if the prosecution would be kind enough to give me permission to do so.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Well, will you notify the prosecution then of the witnesses which you plan to call on Thursday?\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes; the witness, General Velmi, -\nTHE PRESIDENT:I think you should give them this notice in writing.\nDR. BERGOLD:Very well, Your Honor.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The Tribunal, then, in session, will recess until Thursday morning at 9:30, the day after tomorrow.", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1602, "page_number": "1270", "date": "18 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-18", "text": "We will recess at this time.\nTHE MARSHAL:This Tribunal is in recess until 0930, Thursday morning, the 20th of February.\n(The Tribunal recessed until 20 February 1947, at 0930 hours.)", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1603, "page_number": "1271", "date": "20 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-20", "text": "Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the Matter of the United States of America against Erhard Milch, defendant, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 20 February 1947, O940 to 1630 hours, Justice Toms presiding.\nTHE MARSHAL:Persons in the courtroom will please find their seats.\nThe Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal II.\nMilitary Tribunal II is now in session. God save the United States of America and this honorable Tribunal.\nThere will be order in the court.\nDR.BERGOLD (Counsel for defendant Milch): Your Honors, I ask permission to call the witness Brauchitsch.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The Marshal will bring the witness Brauchitsch ts the courtroom.\nBERNDT VONBRAUCHITSCH, took the stand and testified as follows:\nJUDGE SPEIGHT:Witness, raise your right hand and repeat after me: I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.\n(The witness repeated the oath.)\nJUDGE SPEIGHT:You may be seated.\nDIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. BERGOLD:\nQWitness, please state your first and last names.\nAI am named Berndt von Brauchitsch.\nQWhen were you born?\nA 30 September 1911.\nQWhat was your last position?\nAI was first military adjutant, ChiefAdjutant, in the Luftwaffe.\nQAnd from when did you occupy that position?\nAFrom 1940 to the conclusion of the war.\nQWhere were you before 1940?\nABefore 1940 I was commander of a Stuka group on the Western Front, and theretofore I was Ordnance Officer with the OKL.", "speakers": [ "JUDGE SPEIGHT", "DR.", "A", "BERNDT VON", "THE PRESIDENT", "Q", "THE MARSHAL" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1604, "page_number": "", "date": "20 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-20", "text": "QDo you know Milch?\nAYes, I know him.\nQCan you identify him here in the court?\n(The witness indicated.)\nDR. BERGOLD:I ask that the record show that the witness identified the defendant.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The record will so show.\nBY DR. BERGOLD:\nQWitness, do you know from what time on Milch was GL?\nAField Marshal Milch was GL, or he took over that job after the death of Colonel General Udet.\nQWitness, do you know how workers were recruited within the air armaments industry?\nAI know that on the part of the Luftwaffe there was no connection in the matter of worker recruitment; rather, workers were requested through Offices.\nQWhat did the Luftwaffe do on its own in the worker question, or had the Luftwaffe nothing to do with if\nAAs far as I know, the Luftwaffe took care of purely statistical matters in the worker question within the organization of the GL, but it had nothing to do with the finding or recruiting of workers.\nQIs it not true that workers for industry were recruited by the Armaments Inspectorate?\nAHow the workers got from the Labor Offices to industry and what the details were, I can not say.\nQAre the armaments Inspectorates subordinate to the Luftwaffe?\nANo, theArmaments Inspectorates were subordinate to the OKW.\nQTo whom were the workers in Germany subordinate in their recruiting and their care and supervision?\nAOrginally the Ministry of Labor, and then later, at a time which I can not state specifically, Sauckel, who took over this job directly from Hitler and was immediately subordinate to and reported directly to Hitler. 1272", "speakers": [ "A", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1605, "page_number": "1273", "date": "20 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-20", "text": "QIs it not true that according to the existing regulations Sauckel was formally subordinate to Goering under the Four Year Plan?\nAIt is possible that formally he was subordinate to the Four Year Plan, but in practice he received his orders directly from Hitler and passed them on accordingly.\nQDo you know who ordered the use of concentration camp inmates?\nASince the Luftwaffe had nothing to do with preparing and finding manpower, this decision could only have been made outside and must have been done by Sauckel's office.\nQIs it not correct that such use traces back to Hitler and Himmler?\nAI hold it to be quite possible that this decision -- or rather, I consider it absolutely certain that that is where the decision was made.\nQDid the GL have an opportunity in regard to workers assigned by to him by the Labor Offices to refuse them, or did he have to take what was offered?\nAThe GL had no influence on the finding of workers or on the use of them; rather, he had to take the workers who were assigned to him for the tasks of his industry. That is to say, they were not given to him as GL but were given to the industry.\nQDo you know that Milch made efforts to have as many German workers as possible?\nAI know that the fight for German workers played an enormous role and that everyone made efforts to keep German workers. I also know in this connection that there was a struggle with the OKW to keep workers who were to be inducted as soldiers and, after they were unsuccessful in this endeavor, to have them made Luftwaffe soldiers and then to be transferred back to industry. I seem to remember a number of roughly 40,000 who were involved in this matter, and there were also soldiers from the Luftwaffe who were assigned to industry.\nQWitness, what observations did you make regarding the treatment of foreign workers?", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1606, "page_number": "1274", "date": "20 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-20", "text": "AI can say but little on this subject. I know that when the High Commander visited industry, he spoke to workers, asked them about their troubles and their needs. There were many foreign workers among this group, because Germans and foreigners worked together and were not separated at the work benches, but I do not remember any complaints, except one case which I remember when a Czech student said that he would prefer to keep on studying rather than to work at the work bench, whereupon Goering told him that that would take a while but that he would examine that particular question.\nQWere steps taken then?\nASince this was a civilian matter, I can say nothing on the subject for certain.\nQWitness, were acts of sabotage frequent in the air armaments industry?\nASabotage in the air armaments industry was very infrequent. I remember no really important case, except for little, minor matters that came up from time to time, such as a hammer being missing or being left under the hood of an airplane, or something of that sort. Really essential cases of sabotage or whole series of acts of sabotage did not occur.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1607, "page_number": "1275", "date": "20 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-20", "text": "Q.Witness, do you know what the attitude was, on the part of the high officials, namely, in regard to the question whether the workers liked or did not like to work?\nA.The opinion was that the few cases of sabotage were proof to the fact that the workers were doing their work willingly, and it was repeatedly ascertained that the work was done very satisfactorily.\nQ.Witness, can you tell us whether and to what extent Milch had to carry out work as Goering's deputy?\nA.Until 1937 the offices of the Luftwaffe were directly under Field Marshal Milch. From 1937 on, the matter was reorganized, the General Staff, the GL, the Luftwaffe Personnel Office, wore separated, and these offices were immediately subordinated to the Chief of the OKL personally. I remember that the question came up regarding who was the Chief of the OKL's deputy when he was on vacation, and he stated specifically that the oldest and highest ranking officer in the organization of the OKL did not want to take over this deputization, but had refused it, and, that is to say, the GL should remain competent for matters of the GL and the Chief of the OKL for OKL matters and the personnel manager should remain competent for personnel matters, and so on.\nQ.Did you know that after 1937 -- did you know of any order after 1937 according to which Milch was to take over the deputization for Goering?\nA.No; I know of no such case--rather, I do know that the Reichsmarshal refused to have any such total representation, very strenuously.\nQ.Why was that?\nA.That is somewhat beyond me. There were technical and personal differences frequently between Milch and Goering. The reasons for that may have been that the Chief of the OKL did not want to entrust Milch with the Central Command.\nQ.Can you state, or are you not in a position to state that relations became tense as early as 1937 or 1938?\nA.As I said before, I do remember the change in the organization, and the channels of command, when certain offices were put directly under the Chief 1275 a of the OKL.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1609, "page_number": "1276", "date": "20 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-20", "text": "This could have been the reason why the opinions of the two gentlemen did not entirely correspond, from then on.\nQ.Do you know that Goering once said that it was not important to him that Milch take over the activity of General Inspector?\nA.I do recall such a remark on the occasion of a conference in East Prussia, where the GL made suggestions regarding changes in the way the air arms should be used. A discussion followed in rather sharp terms, and Goering said at that time that he was not really interested in having Milch function as General Inspector.\nQ.Is it true that there were continual difficulties between the two men on the question of the aircraft production program?\nA.In this field, there were considerable troubles during the war in the Luftwaffe. Do you want me to tell you the time, the situation at Udet's time, or the program situation under Milch?\nQ.First, please, the situation under Milch.\nA.Field Marshal Milch was, after 1941, after the beginning of the Russian campaign, and the two-front war had become a reality, of the opinion, and said so in writing and orally, several times, and told Goering several times in 1942 and 1943, that the essential condition for maintaining the strength of the nation with regard to economic and political leadership was the protection of the home country; that, moreover, the soldier on the front shall have the possibility and the certainty of knowing that his relatives at home are in safety. Consequently, he demanded the predominance of the fighter production to the production of bombers. All sorts of fighters, day and night fighters, anti-aircraft, radar and so on -- all of these should be under one direction, the production and development of these weapons, and that was his attitude until this suggestion or attitude met with unconquerable opposition, until 1943 that is, until the defensive war began to decline. In these discussions which often became very spirited, Milch expressed his opinion very sharply and clearly to Goering because he was responsible for this job; ho also made demands for material and personnel for anti-aircraft defense in order to meet the demands that Hitler made on him.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1610, "page_number": "", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "On the other hand, however, these demands could not 1276a be met because there were always additional and different orders from the Fuehrer.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1611, "page_number": "1277", "date": "20 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-20", "text": "In early December 1943, the High Commander took over Milch's attitude that fighter production should be more predominant over border production, but, despite all the support of all the Luftwaffe offices, it was not possible to break the Fuehrer's opposition to this, and to bring him to the point of view that fighter production should occupy the first rank, with all the necessary accessories.\nQ.Do you know at what point in the armaments program the fighter production program stood until 1943?\nA.In contrast to the allied forces -- in Germany, the fighter production stood in seventh place -- except for the production of crankshafts and after 1942 of radar.\nQ.Witness, hereafter, speak considerably slower. Witness, I return to the question of Milch's relations with Goering. Do you know that, in the spring of 1944, there was a basic discussion which then led to a break between the two men?\nA.In the spring of 1944, the fighter staff was built, on which occasion there were arguments which extended from the spring of 1944 into the summer of 1944, and led to the result that Milch was excluded from the entire fighter program so far as production was concerned, and simply continued to exercise his functions as General Inspector in the GL.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1612, "page_number": "1278", "date": "20 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-20", "text": "Q.Witness, do you know whether Milch could go to Hitler without Goering's permission?\nA.I know that no Luftwaffe officer could report to Hitler without the permission of the OKL.\nQ.When you say \"High Commander\", you mean \"Goering\"?\nA.Yes.\nQ.I simply want that to be clearly shown on the record, because that is not the common understanding.\nA.Whenever I say \"High Commander of the Luftwaffe\", I mean Goering.\nQ.Witness, do you know that in 1944, Milch had been given wide plenipotentiary powers from Goering?\nA.Such plenipotentiary powers in 1944 would have been impossible, because at that time the armament of the Luftwaffe was in the hands of the fighter staff, and, thus, in the hands of the Ministry for Armaments.\nBY DR. BERGOLD: Your Honor, from Document 2C, I desire to bring up Document No. KW 247. I do not have the exhibit number, but it is on page 99 of the document book.\nQ. please look at this authorization which had been given in June of 1944; do you remember also having seen such an authorization of plenipotentiary powers through work in the office, and are you certain that such authorization was given in 1944?\nA.Whether or not such plenipotentiary powers were given previously to that, I do not know, but I do not believe so.\nQ.Do you know that Milch before the beginning of the Russian War protested vigorously against any extension of such war, and that he also appealed to Goering?\nA.I do remember a remark in April or May of 1941, at which time General Milch had a talk with Goering in order to point out that waging war against Russia could not be carried out, and 1278 A he asked him to bring up this point with the Fuehrer.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1614, "page_number": "1279", "date": "20 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-20", "text": "Q.Witness, do you remember who ordered the Luftwaffe underground factories for the Luftwaffe industry?\nA.After the attacks, on the Luftwaffe industry increased in 1943, and in also 1944, Goering demanded frequently that the Luftwaffe factories should be transferred to underground installations.\nQ.Witness, do you know whether Milch himself could pass the death penalty on members of the Luftwaffe?\nA.From the questions asked me by Luftwaffe officers and Air Fleet Chiefs, Goering, only, had the right to pass death penalties, and he refused to give up that right to the Luftwaffe chiefs, on the ground that that was strictly his own prerogative, as Head of the Luftwaffe; namely, the right to decide on the life or death of Luftwaffe soldiers. Even in the case where an air fleet chief requested it, he refused. When Milch asked it, he still refused. So that he, alone, in the Luftwaffe, was in a position to impose or pass upon anybody the death penalty.\nQ.Did Milch ever have any opportunity to pass the death penalty on prisoners of war, inmates of concentration camps, or foreign workers?\nA.Sentence, if passed, confirmed by the Luftwaffe Court, was approved solely by Goering.\nQ.Witness, can you tell me when the basic Fuehrer Order No. 1. regarding secrecy was issued?\nA.In December or January of 1941, two flyers were brought down in Belgium. On the basis of this occurrence, the Fuehrer issued an order that every office could be only informed or even talk only about those matters necessary for the fulfillment of its plans, and that, as late as possible. This was in the beginning of 1940. Yes, that is when it was.\nBY THE PRESIDENT:In the document that you just read from, Exhibit 99, No. KW 247, does the \"Reich-Marshal of Greater Germany\" refer to \"Goering\"?\nBY DR. BERGOLD:Yes, sir; there was only one Reichmarshal in Germany that was of general higher rank than Field Marshal.", "speakers": [ "BY THE PRESIDENT", "Q.", "A.", "BY DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1615, "page_number": "", "date": "20 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-20", "text": "1279 A", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1616, "page_number": "1280", "date": "10 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-10", "text": "BY THE PRESIDENT:I understand that the document is not signed and I wanted it made clear on the record.\nBY DR. BERGOLD:Yes, thank you.\nQ.Witness, can you tell me of the relationship between Goering and Udet. Here previously there was something inquired regarding it, and I want to know what the reason was for a certain severance of relations that took place between Goering and Udet?\nA.The relationship between Udet and Goering relations were very friendly; but when Udet took over the job of Inspector General of the GL, this position was made immediately subordinate to him, so that Udet reported directly to Goering. These were private reports. In the spring of 1941, the Chief under the General Staff of the Luftwaffe, General Jeschenek, found a discrepancy between the numbers that the GL announced and the quartermasterGeneral took over. Then there were discussions on the subject, I recall very well because they fell within the period of the Jugo-Slavian Campaign. This discussion was to clarify the first of the differences, on the one hand, and, on the other band, why the programs that had been set, were being generally changed. We called these programs \"Sliding programs\". For this reason, there were certain difficulties between the Chief of the General Staff and Udet, because it was a great nuisance and trouble to find these mistakes. These were the reasons a certain change of relationship took place between Goering and Udet. And I believe in the late summer of 1941, Field Marshal Milch was commissioned to take part as adviser of Udet in the production program. Udet seemed to become more and more uncertain, and was also in a bad state of health. All of the armament matters that did not come off very well under him, he cried to bring into order.", "speakers": [ "BY THE PRESIDENT", "Q.", "A.", "BY DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1617, "page_number": "", "date": "10 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-10", "text": "While, on the other hand, he understood the impossibility of carrying out this program, on the other hand, he incurred the mistrust of, and became personna non grata with Goering, and this lead to the fact that in November of 1941, he shot himself.\nDR. BERGOLD:I have no further questions.\n1280 a) BY MR. DENNEY:", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1618, "page_number": "1281", "date": "20 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-20", "text": "Q.Did you ever attend any of the meetings of the Jaegerstab?\nA.Personally I never took part in any.\nQ.Did you ever go to any meetings of the Central Planning Board?\nA.No, never.\nQ.Did you ever go to any meetings of the GL (General Luftfengmeister?\nA.Only once.\nQ.What did they talk about at that one meeting that you went to?\nA.I cannot remember any details of just what they debated about at that time. I only know that production questions were talked over with all the competent officers and engineers but I cannot remember any of the detail.\nQ.Do you remember when that meeting was?\nA. 1943, I think.\nQ.Did you hear mention anything about slave labor or farm workers?\nA.I remember no discussion of such questions. I do remember discussion on production problems and program schedule and so on, but I cannot remember any details of that conference.\nQ.You did not hear them say anything about concentration camp workers working for the aircraft industry?\nA.From this discussion I remember nothing. I myself only know there were two concentration camps, Oranienburg and Dachau.\nQ.Those were the two concentration camps you ever knew about, that of Oranienburg and Dachau?\nA.Those are the only ones I ever know about, yes.\nQ.You did not find out about any of the rest of these until after the war was over?\nA.The names were are now familiar with were not familiar to me at all previously.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1619, "page_number": "", "date": "20 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-20", "text": "Q.So that prior to the German capitulation in the spring 1945 the only two concentration camps you ever heard about were Dachau and Oranienburg?\nA.Yes, that is true.\n1281 A", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1620, "page_number": "1282", "date": "20 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-20", "text": "Q.Did you know what they did with people in the concentration camps?\nA.No, I did not know of it.\nQ.You assumed that everybody that was ever sent to a concentration camp, and the only two you knew about, Dachau and Oranienburg, was properly condemned after a proper judicial process by a proper German court?\nA.The rest of the situation was this: We thought that people who had been condemned were sentenced by regular courts and were taken to concentration camps.\nQ.You never knew anything about any foreigners being sent to concentration camps?\nA.No, I don't know of any.\nQ.Then you are sure that all people who went to concentration camps were criminals, undesirable people?\nA.Yes.\nQ.You were Goering's adjutant from 1940 until the end of the war, weren't you?\nA.Yes.\nQ.Did the occasion ever arise when somebody would come to Goering and say, \"Please get my friend out of a concentration camp.\"?\nA.No, that did not happen. I only know that people would come to me to intervene for people who had been arrested by the Gestapo.\nQ.Well, what happened to the people who were sentenced by the Gestapo? Where did they go?\nA.That I cannot tell you. I know that there was a Gestapo prison in the Prinzregentenstrasse in Berlin - Prinz Albrechtstrasse, rather.\nQ.Whatever was the one street or other does not make any difference, but you knew they had a prison there?\nA.Yes, that I knew.\nQ.So far as you knew, you never made any inquiries about the concentration camps and you did not know what the Gestapo was doing?\nA.No, that was not known to me either but in one case I mentioned the name was cleared up and the man was set free.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1621, "page_number": "", "date": "20 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-20", "text": "1282 A", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1622, "page_number": "1283", "date": "20 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-20", "text": "Q.That was some case of mistake the Gestapo made when they arrested somebody, was it?\nA.I don't know the details of it. I know that the person in question was subsequently free, after he was told that nothing could be put against him.\nQ.And who was it? He was not in Dachau or Oranienburg?\nA.No.\nQ.Were you in constant attendance on Goering?\nA.As his adjutant I accompanied him on all official trips and during his presence in headquarters.\nQ.Did you see all the correspondence that came to and from Goering's office?\nA.Only that which was military. That is to say, Luftwaffe matters to the extent it went through our offices and was not dealt with directly by the particular branch leaders with Goering, or went through the Fuehrer headquarters.\nQ.But you would have occasion to have letters come out from Goering which he would tell you to send around to the Chief of Staff or the Quartermaster General for the Luftwaffe, or one of the other of the branches?\nA.Yes.\nQ.And you would take the letter and look it over and make out a \"buck\" slip, or a little piece of paper and put something on it and send it on?\nA.Either that letter was simply signed by Goering, which was dictated by him, or was a messageor note submitted to him for him to decide on, or not, a note on it but some kind of a simple message to pass on without any note. That was the sort of thing which was without any commentary from the adjutant's office.\nQ.But an occasion would arise when you would have to make some comment on a slip that you prepared, if he told you to send this letter to so and so and asked him about this and that to put something on it and he would then hand you the letter, is that right?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1623, "page_number": "", "date": "20 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-20", "text": "A.Yes, that is so.\n1283 a", "speakers": [ "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1624, "page_number": "1284", "date": "20 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-20", "text": "Q.Did you, of course, know who Himmler was?\nA.Yes, that I knew?\nQ.You knew he was head of the SS?\nA.Yes.\nQ.And the Gestapo?\nA.Yes.\nQ.You knew that he had concentration camp workers working in the Luftwaffe armaments industry and factories?\nA.I know of this only on the occasion of a visit to a factory and that was the only factory where I saw concentration camp inmates working?\nQ.How were they dressed?\nA.They were wearing German prison clothes.\nQ.Were they wearing verticle stripes, say, of white and black?\nA.Verticle stripes such as we have lately seen in Dachau.\nQ.Where was this one factory you visited?\nA.That was in Regensburg.\nQ.That was a Messerschmidt factory, was it not?\nA.The factory had belonged to the Messerschmidt plants, yes.\nQ.They were making airplanes there, weren't they?\nA.Yes.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1625, "page_number": "1285", "date": "20 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-20", "text": "Did you knew where these concentration camp workers came from?\nAThat I did not know. I asked one of the guards what people these were, and I was explicitly told that these were criminal prisoners.\nQWho was with you on this trip to the factory at Regensburg?\nAI accompanied Goering on this trip.\nQWho was guarding these people in these concentration camps?\nAThe SS.\nQThe SS. Did you see where they lived?\nANo. We were only in the factory itself.\nQWhen was this that you went to the Messerschmidt factory in Regensburg?\nAApril or May, 1944, if I remember.\nQDid you see any foreign workers there?\nAAs I said before, no one struck me particularly as being a foreign worker, but I do know that Goering spoke several times to workers and thus ascertained that this or that one was not German and thus he found out that he was a foreign worker.\nQDo you know what countries they came from, these foreign workers that were out there?\nAWe. French and Russian were the languages in which the answers were given.\nQDid you ever visit any other factories during the period 1940 when you became Chief Adjutant until the end of the War, that is, between these two dates from 1940 to the end of '45?\nAYes,Arado in Braunschweig, Junkers in Dessau and in Wiener-Neustadt.\nQWould you mind repeating these for me, please?\nAArado in Braunschweig, Junkers in Dessau and Wiener-Neustadt.\nQWhen were these visits, do you recall?\nADuring the period between 1942 and '44.\nQDid you see the people who were working there in the Arado factory in Braunschweig, the Junkers factory in Dessau--and what kind of a factory was it in Wiener-Neustadt?", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1626, "page_number": "1286", "date": "20 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-20", "text": "AWeiener-Neustadt was also an airplane factory that built Messerschmidt 109's.\nQDo you remember what kind of people worked in those factories?\nAWe were there to see a development program being carried out, and they were exclusively Germans.\nQYou didn't see any concentration camp people?\nANo.\nQYou didn't see any foreigners?\nANo, I didn't notice any.\nQAnd you didn't see any of the SS boys around guarding anybody?\nA.No.\nQYou could recognize the SS if you saw them?\nAYes.\nQCan you do any better on the dates of the visits to the Arado factory in Braunschweig, the Junkers factory in Dessau and the ME-109 factory in Wiener-Neustadt than just \"sometime between 1942 and 1944\"?\nAI have to make a correction first. TheArado factory is not in Braunschweig as I said previously but in Branderburg, and regarding the precise times, I really cannot make any statement. I have no schedule with me and no documents on the basis of which I could arrange that, the order in which I visited the various factories or when it was.\nQYou just knew it was sometime between the period 1942 and '44?\nABetween '42 and '44,Arado in '43 and '44 because we went to look at a specific model which was being fabricated at that time.\nQDo you remember being interrogated here in December of last year by Captain Koch of the -\nAHere in -\nQHere in Nurnberg.\nAYes.\nQAnd he talked to you about this same general subject, and do you remember the last question which he asked you? \"I would like to know who was responsible for labor assignment in the Luftwaffe and who asked for labor\"? Do you remember that? And your answer -", "speakers": [ "A", "A.", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1627, "page_number": "1287", "date": "20 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-20", "text": "A.I do not remember that because I neither saw nor signed the record of this interrogation. I only remember that the interrogation took place, but I don't remember the individual questions.\nQ.You have no recollection of being asked that question?\nA.I know that all the questions were something of the sort of questions that are being asked here, but the individual questions I do not remember.\nQ.So you don't recall the question which I just put to you?\nA.It is possible that this question was asked in that form, but specifically I cannot remember the details.\nQ.Well, you wouldn't say that you weren't asked the question?\nA.No, I wouldn't deny that the question was asked me.\nMR. DENNEY:No further questions.\nDR. BERGOLD:I really have no further questions, but the following has been brought to my attention: Witness, when you spoke of concentration camp inmates previously, you had said that they were penal prisoners not the transcribed word \"criminal\" prisoners which was incorrect. I then have no further questions.\nTHE PRESIDENT:What should it have been?\nDR. BERGOLD:The German word \"criminal prisoner\" used means more than an ordinary prisoner. It means a man who has been sentenced by a penal court, whereas the word \"prisoner\" is a general term which can include concentration camp prisoners, pre-trial prisoners, penal prisoners and prisoners of war and so on. The translation which was originally \"criminal prisoners\" should have been \"penal prisoners\".\nTHE PRESIDENT:This witness may be removed. Oh, just a moment.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1628, "page_number": "1288", "date": "20 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-20", "text": "RECESS EXAMINATION BY MR. DENNEY:\nQ.You never knew anything about any atrocities that were committed by any German forces, either in the homeland or in any of the occupied territories at the time they were committed; you only found out about these things later; is that right?\nIndividual cases of plundering or rape were known to me on the basis of sentences passed by courts martials, but personal knowledge I do not have. I know that both in France and Russia measures were taken against these crimes and severe penalties passed.\nQ.And so far as you know any of these violations that were committed, which were brought to the attention of the higher authorities, were promptly dealt with by appropriate German military court or the German civil court?\nA.I know only of cases from the court-martials. I know that the cases that did become known were dealt with in the correct fashion.\nQ.And you never heard anything about families being broken up and sent to concentration camps -- or anything like that?\nA.No.\nQ.And if you had heard about them, you would have been in a position to do something about them; you were the adjutant to the Reich Marshal.\nA.If I had found out about such cases, I should certainly ask Goering what was to be done, because I myself had no power of command.\nQ.But you could not talk to him; he was a pretty big man, wasn't he?\nA.You could not speak with him -- you could speak with him.\nJUDGE NUSMANNO:There is a conflict in the answer. I thought the witness said he could speak with him.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "JUDGE NUSMANNO" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1629, "page_number": "1289", "date": "20 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-20", "text": "A.Yes, it was possible to speak with Goering.\nMR. DENNY:No further questions.\nTHE PRESIDENT:This witness may be removed by the Marshal.\n(Witness removed from Courtroom by the Marshal)\nDR. BERGOLD:I ask to call the witness General Folmy.\nTHE PRESIDENT:It is so close to our recess time that we will call the witness immediately after the recess. The Tribunal will recess now for fifteen minutes.\n(A recess was taken)", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD", "A.", "MR. DENNY", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1630, "page_number": "1290", "date": "20 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-20", "text": "THE MARSHAL:Tribunal No. 2 is again in session.\nDR. BERGOLD:May it please the Tribunal, we should*****like to call Gen. Felmy.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The Marshal will bring in the witness;\nHELMUTHFELMY, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows;\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:Will you raise your right hand and repeat after me; I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.\n(The witness repeated the oath.)\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:You may be seated.\nDIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. BERGOLD:\nQ.Witness, would you tell this Tribunal your first name and your Last name?\nA.Helmuth Felmy,F-e-l-m-y.\nQ.Then were you born, witness?\nA.On the 20th of May, 1885.\nQ.What was your rank and your official position which you had last in one German Wehrmacht?\nA.General of the airforce, general of the 34th army corps.\nQ.Do you know Mr. Milch?\nA.Yes.\nQ.Do you recognize him here in this court?\nA.Yes, he is sitting over there.\nDR. BERGOLD:I would like to have the record show that the witness recognized the defendant.\nTEE PRESIDENT:The record will so show.\nBY DR. BERGOLD:\nQ.Witness, do you know the so-called basic Fuehrer order No. 1?\nA.Yes, I do.\nQ.Could you tell me when this order exactly was issued?\nA.On the 12th of January, 1940.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "HELMUTH", "TEE PRESIDENT", "THE MARSHAL", "JUDGE MUSMANNO" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1631, "page_number": "1291", "date": "20 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-20", "text": "Q.You are quite sure of this date?\nA.Yes, I am.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Dr. Bergold, is that the secrecy order?\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes, Your Honor. It was know in Germany -- in Germany it was known as the basic Fuehrer Order No. 1. That is the way they called it in Germany, the official language. Isn't that correct, witness?\nTHE WITNESS:Yes.\nBY DR. BERGOLD:\nQ.Witness, can you tell me how you judge the defendant Milch?\nA.I know the defendant Milch, or rather, I met him when he was a director or manager of the Lufthansa. I had personal dealings with him, and our relationship was very good.\nQ.Is he a just man or is he a man who is not afraid of any cruelty or atrocity?\nA.He is a just man. Maybe once in a while he stuffs his mouth, that is to say, in order to stress certain remarks. However, I never noticed any Atrocities or cruelty in him.\nDR. BERGOLD:May it please the Tribunal, I did not want to ask any more questions of this witness. All I wanted to know was the date of the Fuehrer Order.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Can we have that document which contains that order that you just referred to? It is the Court's impression that it bears a different date than the one given by the witness.", "speakers": [ "THE WITNESS", "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1632, "page_number": "1292", "date": "20 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-20", "text": "MR. DENNEY:I believe, if Your Honor please, they are talking about Document L79, which is the record by Col. Schmundt of the Hitler conference in May 1939. That, if Your Honor please, is document No. 1 on Page 1 of Document Book 1-A.\nDR. BERGOLD:I must disagree with Mr. Denney. I do not agree with Mr. Denney. The Fuehrer Order was an order of his own. I tried to get this document everywhere; however, it was probably destroyed. Many German defense counsel or lawyers tried to get this document. Mr. Denney just mentioned the so-called Schmundt record or protocol where this Fuehrer order is contained in exact manner. However, it is not the Fuehrer order. Could you tell us something about that, witness?\nTHE PRESIDENT:We have seen that order. It is the one where Hitler said that no one should know more than was necessary, no one should speak before it was necessary, and so forth.\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes, I saw it myself as a German soldier.\nTHE PRESIDENT:I am referring now to Document L79, which bears the date 23 May 1939.\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes, Your Honor.\nTHE PRESIDENT:And this one says no one must be admitted who is not concerned, no one may know more than is necessary for him to know, and so forth. That is not the one you refer to?\nDR. BERGOLD:No. It is a Fuehrer Befehl, a Fuehrer Order. My argument -- I will go into details later. My argument is that this document does not contain the full truth of the conditions at that time and this is in evidence -- that this Fuehrer order which was released in 1941 is already in that document book from May 1939. Therefore I say that this Schmundt record was made after 1940 and that therefore it is not enough evidence and cannot bring enough evidence what happened in this conference of May '39 and what was discussed in that conference. I would like to see if the witness can make any statement as to that.\nBY DR. BERGOLD:\nQWitness, please answer.", "speakers": [ "BY DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "DR. BERGOLD", "MR. DENNEY", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1633, "page_number": "1293", "date": "20 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-20", "text": "AThis order was released on the 12th of January 1940. It was written in a personal manner. The contents were approximately the following, and were about the same as our opinion of the Fuehrer order. The order said approximately the Fuehrer -- the troops should not be informed as to the intention of the leadership, they only have to know what they have to know immediately and have to find out as late as possible. In other words, at a time to enable them to release the necessary additional orders. I know the date for that particular reason exactly because on that day I got my release, or I was discharged.\nQWitness, I didn't want to ask you about that.\nAHowever, this is in evidence because I remember exactly.\nQThe order was released because of an incident you thought you were responsible for?\nAYes, there was an incident that happened within my field of work or activities.\nQAnd was started by this occasion?\nAYes, there can be no doubt about that.\nDR. BERGOLD: I have no further questions. The witness is at the disposal of Mr. Denney.\nCROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. DENNEY:\nQWitness, what was your rank in May 1939?\nAIn May 1939 I was commander ofAir Fleet 2, Braunschweig.\nQWhat was your rank? General der Flieger?\nAGeneral der Flieger.\nQAnd that is one rank below the rank of Generaloberst, is it not?\nAYes, indeed.\nQWere you in a meeting with Hitler on 23 May or any time around that date, 1939?\nANo.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:Mr. Denney, what is the American equivalent of that rank which you have mentioned in German?", "speakers": [ "JUDGE MUSMANNO", "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1634, "page_number": "1294", "date": "20 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-20", "text": "MR. DENNEY:General der Fleiger is like our Lieutenant General, if Your Honor please. Generaloberst is like our four star General.\nBY MR. DENNEY:\nQ.Did you ever talk to anybody about that meeting?\nA.No. I just learned about this conference through the press. I didn't know that there was a session in May with the Fuehrer.\nQ.Did you talk to Milch about it?\nA.No.\nQ.With Goering?\nA.Neither with Goering nor with Milch.\nQ.Keitel, Jodl?\nA.No.\nQ.Raeder?\nA.No.\nQ.Warliment?\nA.No.\nQ.When did you first find out about this meeting?\nA.Right now in the Nuremberg trials and from the excerpts of that so-called Schmundt record, of which excerpts appeared in the press, the papers.\nQ.You didn't know that the meeting was held until sometime late in '45 or -\nA.No, I didn't know about that. Later on in '45, to be exact, '46, I was in Braunschweig and I had nothing to do with Berlin exactly.\nQ.Your duties didn't even have you in Berlin at that time, did they?\nA.Once in a while, yes, but the left wing was Braun-schweig and the right wing of the Air Corps was Stralsund.\nQ.Did you know anything about the employment of partisans which were captured as laborers? Withdrawn. You were commanding general of the 34th army corps down in -\nA.No. No. At that time I was commander of Air Fleet II, Braunschweig.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1635, "page_number": "", "date": "20 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-20", "text": "Q. We are talking about '39 now. We are through with that.\nA. No, later.\n1294 (a)", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1636, "page_number": "1295", "date": "20 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-20", "text": "Q.At one time you were commanding general of the 34th Army Corps in the southeast, were you not?\nA.No, it was Yugoslavia.\nQ.We won't argue about the direction. Do you recall what disposition was made of partisans who were captured down there?\nA.There were different orders, various orders. There was an order against gang fights, I believe, from '42, and still later on it was extended by additional orders, and then later on was mitigated.\nQ.Do you remember that partisans who were captured were made available as laborers in Germany?\nA.According to my opinion, this was demanded in the summer of 1944. The troops were generally against it because they said that sabotage could be carried out by these partisans, and they weren't quite reliable, because of their previous activities. They didn't think that appropriate.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1637, "page_number": "1296", "date": "20 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-20", "text": "Q.But they did make them available as laborers to Germany?\nA.Well, a certain percentage of them came to Germany. I do not know how many of them did cone to Germany, though, but they applied for them; that is correct.\nMR. DENNEY:No further questions, Your honor.\nDR. BERGOLD:I have no further questions, Your honor.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The Marshal may remove this witness. Are you ready for the next witness, Dr. Bergold?\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes, General Warlimont.\nTHE PRESIDENT:You may bring General Warlimont back.\nWALTERWARLIMONT? a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:\nTHE PRESIDENT:The witness will raise his right hand and repeat after me: I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.\n(The witness repeated the oath.)\nTHE PRESIDENT:You may be seated.\nDIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. BERGOLD:\nQ.Witness, will you tell this Tribunal your first and last names?\nA.My name is Walter Warlimont, W-A-R-L-I-M-O-N-T.\nQ.When were you born, witness?\nA. 3 October 1894.\nQ.What was your last rank in the German Wehrmacht?\nA.I was general of the artillery and belonged to the Fuehrer Reserve of High Command of the army.\nDR. BERGOLD:May it please this Tribunal, I shall now come to the famous Schmundt protocol or record, which we discussed a few minutes ago. It is Exhibit No. 3, page 1 of the Document Book Number 1-A of the Prosecution.\nBY DR. BERGOLD:", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "BY DR. BERGOLD", "WALTER", "MR. DENNEY", "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1638, "page_number": "1297", "date": "20 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-20", "text": "Q.Witness, do you know that on 23 May 1939 in the office of Himmler, Hitler and the New Reich Chancellory there was a conference ?\nA.I heard about this conference for the first time on 12 October 1945 in this building here. On that particular day I was questioned by an American interrogator. He shelved me a photostatic copy of this conference, and I immediately stated that I had not participated in that session and that I furthermore did not know anything about the fact that this conference had taken place.\nQ.In other words, if this record shows that you were present, then it is not correct?\nA.It is undoubtedly wrong.\nDR. BERGOLD:I have no further questions of this witness. He is now at the disposal of Mr. Denney.\nMR. DENNEY:No questions, Your Honor.\nBY JUDGE MUSMANNO:\nQ.Did you know Colonel Schmundt?\nA.Yes, for quite a period of years.\nQ.Did you ever have occasion to talk with him between May 1939 and the end of the war?\nA.Yes, quite often.\nQ.And nothing ever developed in the conversation that would lead you to know or to have some intimation that your name had been included in the memorandum which he made up of this famous meeting?\nA.No, there was never a question about that.\nBY THE PRESIDENT:\nQ.Were you in Berlin in May 1939?\nA.In May 1939 I was in Berlin in general because my office was there. However, I can not tell whether I was there on 23 May.\nQ.Where was your office in Berlin?\nA.It was in the building of the Reich bar Ministry in Bendlerstrasse.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1639, "page_number": "", "date": "20 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-20", "text": "CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. DENNEY:\nQ.Witness, you have spoken of your interrogation of 12 October 1945 by Lieutenant Colonel Hinkel. Do you recall that?\nA.Yes.\nQ.At that tine he showed you the original of this document signed by Schmundt?\nA.Yes, indeed.\nQ.And you identified Schmundt's signature, didn't you?\nA.Yes, indeed.\nQ.And he also asked you why you thought Schmundt would say that you were there if you were not there, didn't he? Do you remember him asking you that?\nA.I do remember that, and I remember my answer as well.\nQ.And what did you answer to that?\nA.First of all, I pointed out that the list of those present had been typed prior to the conference, while the record itself was handwritten and could only have been written after the conference. The Wehrmacht adjutantur, whose chief was Schmundt, had anticipated my participation in that conference. However, later on, they did not correct the list of those present.\nQ.Do you remember telling Colonel Hinkel that it may be that you had forgotten?\nA.No, I did not say that.\nQ.And then Colonel Hinkel said to you, \"In other words, you don't say you were not there; you just say you don't remember?\" And you said, \"Yes, Yes, that is all I can say.\"\nA.No, I explicitly mentioned that I was not there, and I gave him a whole series of reasons for that.\nMR. DENNEY:No more questions.\nBY JUDGE MUSMANNO:\nQ.Is Schmundt living now?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "MR. DENNEY", "BY JUDGE MUSMANNO" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1640, "page_number": "1299", "date": "20 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-20", "text": "A.No, Schmundt died after the attempt of 20 July.\nQ.Of 1944?\nA.Yes.\nQ.Was he one of the conspirators?\nA.No.\nQ. What was the occasion of his death, what happened, if you know?\nA.He was present in the room where the attempt on Hitler's life took place. He was injured very badly and died a few weeks later as a result of the so injuries he received.\nQ.Very well.\nRE-DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. BERGOLD:\nQ.Witness, one more question. Were you asked to attend this conference?\nA.No, I did not know anything about that conference until 12 October 1945. I did not know that such a conference took place until that date.\nDR. BERGOLD:No further questions.\nBY THE PRESIDENT:\nQ.Had you been invited to attend the conference by Hitler, you hardly would have stayed away, would you?\nA.No, I don't think so, under no circumstances. However, for that reason, it is quite improbable that I had been invited, because never during that period of my office was I over called to such a conference. Never. Three years prior to that I visited Hitler once -- one single time -- because for a particular reason when I had returned from abroad, and for that reason, I would not have forgotten such an incident.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The Marshal may remove this witness.\n(Witness excused.)", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1641, "page_number": "1300", "date": "20 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-20", "text": "DR. BERGOLD:May it please the Tribunal, I am very sorry to have to inform you of the fact that no witness is at our disposal at this moment, because the witnesses whom I applied for have not arrived in Nurnberg yet, neither the main witness, General Vorwaldt nor the very important witness General Westhoff, who could probably inform us of the shooting of Russian officers. These gentlemen at this moment are in either British or American captivity.\nThe free witness Kalk informed two days ago that he did not come to Nurnberg because he is now the administrator of three hospitals, and he is one of the few who are still in Berlin, so that there would be quite a danger to the population there if he left. As the interrogation or examination of the witness Kalk is quite long, I would have to go to Berlin with my secretary, which would necessitate an interruption of the trial. That is the situation at the present moment.\nI have one more request to this Tribunal. I would appreciate it if the Tribunal would see to it that a copy of the English record is submitted to me. In one of the records which I glanced through with my secretary we found quite a few mistakes. We found no fault with the interpreters, but the so-called C-office was translated as \"Sea-Office\"S-E-A Office, or \"Lake Office\" and this is quite a serious mistake because one would actually think that this C-office had something to do with the sea distress experiments. They connect this with the sea, and it has no connection with sea but only with the letter \"C\", in the alphabet .\nThese mistakes, of course -- I would like to look through them so that when the Tribunal passes sentence, it does not have a report which contains such mistakes.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Do you got a copy daily of the German transcript?\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes, indeed I do. I receive it with a delay of approximately five to six days. That is quite usual, though, and I am not com plaining about that.", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1642, "page_number": "", "date": "20 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-20", "text": "However, I would like to have an English copy in order to climinate or find out these mistakes, because 1300 A this Tribunal has to base its sentence on the English record and not on the German record.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1643, "page_number": "1301", "date": "20 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-20", "text": "THE PRESIDENT:Do you wish the English copy from now on, or do you want the back copies?\nDR. BERGOLD:I would like to have them from the beginning in order to glance through them and find very serious mistakes. Small mistakes can not be avoided, and I am not blaming anybody about that. In other words, I am not trying to play teacher here. However, serious mistakes which give the case a different meaning have to be clarified", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1644, "page_number": "1302", "date": "20 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-20", "text": "THE PRESIDENT:Your request is reasonable, and it will be arranged that you be furnished an English copy of the testimony, together with the German.\nDR. BERGOLD:Thank you very much, Your Honor.\nMR. DENNEY:If Your Honor pleases, I think the Secretary General can arrange for that.\nTHE PRESIDENT:From the Document Division?\nMR. DENNEY:Through the distribution center, If Your Honor pleases.\nTHE PRESIDENT:That's Mr. Niebergall.\nMR. DENNEY:I believe, Mr. Niebergall. I think the actual physical work and handling is taken care of by Mr. J. Millard, if Your Honor please.\nDR. BERGOLD:Thank you very much Your Honors. Thank you very much.\nTHE PRESIDENT:We're attempting to guess, Dr. Bergold, when this trial will be concluded as far as the taking of testimony is concerned. Can you give us some indication of the number of witnesses which you will call?\nDR. BERGOLD:I would like to call General Vorwaldt, Colonel Petersen, General Raeder, that is the Marshal who knows exactly the question with regard to the death sentences, the witness Brandt, who played sick yesterday, the witness Xaver Dorsch, the man with the subterranean buildings, General Westhoff, and today - I just found out about it today I asked for two further witnesses, namely, General-Admiral Schniewindt from Garmisch, and Lt. General Engel from Camp Allendorf. These two gentlemen were present at the Schmundt conference. I just found out their address. The witness Brauchitsch told me their address.\nTHE PRESIDENT:What is the importance of the inquiry into who was present at the Schmundt conference?\nDR. BERGOLD:It has an importance for the following reason: namely if, according to the opinion of the prosecution this slave labor plan was already planned within the framework of Germany or not, it is a question of the conspiracy in the first place.", "speakers": [ "MR. DENNEY", "MR. DENNEY", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1645, "page_number": "", "date": "20 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-20", "text": "If I can prove with these witnesses that these Schmundt records are false in quite a few points, then, in my opinion, and I 1302 A also take it that it will lose in your opinion, as well, its probative value.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1646, "page_number": "1303", "date": "20 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-20", "text": "THE PRESIDENT:Will it be your claim that Milch was not at that conference?\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes, indeed; he was present. However, the record is wrong. It contains many points which were only written later on in falsification of history, as statements made by Hitler, allegedly, that is. We think that this record was only written in 1940, and it contains a series of wrong statements and could not be used for history; in other words, in order to show that Hitler could see in advance what was com ing. This conference was of different contents than the one on the record.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Well, your position, then is that Milch was there?\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes; it is.\nTHE PRESIDENT:But what the Schmundt transcript of what was talked about is incorrect?\nDR. BERGOLD:That is correct; yes. The prosecution submitted it, and therefore I assume that the prosecution attaches a probative value to it; otherwise I am sure they wouldn't have submitted it. Mr. Denney -- I don't think he would put a task on his shoulders witch is not necessary.\nMR. DENNEY:Your Honor, please, all those questions were thrashed out with the Internation Military Tribunal -- it was signed by him, it was found in the German archives, and that is true. Now, I haven't objected to his calling Raeder, to testify with reference to what happened, I haven't objected to his calling Vorwaldt to come in and say he wasn't there, but if we're going to have a long parade of these people coming in and attacking this thing, I submit that it ought to stop.\nDR. BERGOLD:May it please this Tribunal, it is correct that members of the Internation Military Tribunal ruled to that effect. However, all those points of evidence which I submitted had not been submitted by the German defense at the time I was in Berlin, in general, about this record, and nobody tried to check up on these records.", "speakers": [ "MR. DENNEY", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1647, "page_number": "", "date": "20 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-20", "text": "Therefore 1303 A I'm of the opinion that if I want to bring now evidence against the accuracy and value of this record, which evidence was not introduced in the first score - and therefore was not examined - then I think that I should be permitted to do so, because, in my opinion, it would be contrary to justice to overrule such an exact evidence.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1648, "page_number": "1304", "date": "20 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-20", "text": "It cannot be a prejudice, that mistakes that were made by defense counsels in different courts must be used for all future defendants. Milch, at the time, could not defend himself, and the proof that he believes that he can introduce now, he could not introduce at the time. That, in my opinion, should be permitted him, even according to the Charter.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Well, of course, the fact that some of your witnesses are somewhere in the custody of either the British or American military authorities doesn't help us much in determining when they will be here present as witnesses.\nDR. BERGOLD:May it please this Tribunal, I understand that. However, it is outside of my jurisdiction and outside of my possibilities to make a statement to that effect, because this is a matter which concerns the military administrative officials exclusively, as this Tribunal already has asked for the witnesses to be brought to Nurnberg. I do not know the military office which I can apply to, and I can assure you that they wouldn't even listen to me.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Well, is the conclusion this: That you have no witnesses today?\nDR. BERGOLD:No; I have no witnesses for today.\nTIE PRESIDENT:What about tomorrow?\nDR. BERGOLD:I don't know if anybody will come till the afternoon. I know as little as before. That is the unfortunate thing about it all. We don't get anything at all as defense counsels; we're only put before facts. The witness is here or he is not here; that as all. The witness Raeder, for instance -- he was here, I spoke to him, he was approved by this Tribunal, and in spite of that he was taken away.", "speakers": [ "TIE PRESIDENT", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1649, "page_number": "", "date": "20 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-20", "text": "All this is outside of my jurisdiction. I only learned about these things when the witnesses already appeared.\n1304 A", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1650, "page_number": "1305", "date": "20 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-20", "text": "MR. DENNEY:If Your Honor please, the statement that he has just made about the witness Raeder, isn't so. He refused to call him. He could have called, him, and said \"I won't call him.\"\nDR. BERGOLD:Oh, no. Oh, no; that isn't right. The witness Raeder had been granted me, I spoke to him, and before he could be called he suddenly disappeared. Lt. Garrett told me that.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Well, Raeder is the man who was shipped to Garmisch by mistake, wasn't he?\nMR. DENNEY:I thought he was taling about Adamiral Raeder -- he was out here in the hall yesterday.\nDR. BERGOLD:No; I'm speaking about Raeder -- Raeder.\nMR. DENNEY:Oh, I don't know anything about him. And I must say that we don't have anything to do with it.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Whom do you mean by \"we\"?\nMR. DENNEY:The prosecution.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The United States doesn't want to spirit any witnesses army.\nDR. BERGOLD:I'm quite sure of that.\nTHE PRESIDENT:This seems to involve some inquiry that shouldn't be made in open court. If Dr. Bergold and Mr. Denney would be good enought to go from here to the Court's Chambers, we'll see if some of the practical aspects of this difficulty can't be ironed out. Do you expect to learn this afternoon whether you'll have a witness ready for tomorrow morning?\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes.\nTHE PRESIDENT:I'm trying to determine until what time we should adjourn. I think we'll call it tomorrow morning and hope that it won't be time wasted. The Tribunal will recess until tomorrow morning at 9:30.\nTHE MARSHAL:This Tribunal is in recess until 0930 tomorrow morn ing.\n(The Tribunal adjourned until 21 February 1947, at 0930 hours.\"", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "MR. DENNEY", "THE MARSHAL", "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1651, "page_number": "1306", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the Matter of the United States of the American against Erhard Milch, defendant, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 24 February 1947, 0930-0945 hours, Justice Toms presiding.\nTHE MARSHAL:Persons in the courtroom will please find their seats.\nThe Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal II.\nMilitary Tribunal II is now in session. God save the United States of America and this honorable Tribunal.\nThere will be order in the Court.\nDR. BERGOLD:May it please the Tribunal, this morning there is one witness at our disposal for examination now, General-Admiral Schniewindt. As far as General Westhof is concerned I must do without him because he does not know anything with respect to what I wanted to examine him. It is for me very difficult to clarify this. The only witness General von Grawitz is in Yugoslavia and all of the people who are in charge of the PWs of the OKW -- I tried to get them over there by Weshof declared that he only joined in March. He told me the name of another witness who is sick in Garmisch whereupon on Saturday I immediately sent my assistant Dr. Milch to Garmisch in order to get an affidavit from him. Further, the witness Dosch and the witness Engl have arrived but I couldn't examine them so far. Therefore, I propose that after the examination of General Schniewindt the Tribunal take a recess until 1:30 this afternoon which would enable me to examine these two gentlemen shortly, and furthermore I suggest that the witness Brandt be brought in this afternoon. He has now declared himself ready to be examined today. I also spoke with Dr. Kauffmann, his defense counsel. He will also be here and he agrees with it. It will be necessary that your Honor discuss the matter with the gentlemen from Court I so that Brandt will be released downstairs and can be used this afternoon.", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1652, "page_number": "", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "That is Case I upstairs. That's all we have for today.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Did you get the affidavit from the witness in Garmisch?\n1306(a)", "speakers": [ "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1653, "page_number": "1307", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "DR. BERGOLD:No. My assistant went there. He will be back today.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Could you perhaps examine the witness Brandt after you have finished with Schniewindt?\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes, but, of course, we have to have the permission of the President in Case No. 1.\nMR. PRESIDENT:Well, I will arrange with Judge Beals of Tribunal I and we will take Mr. Brandt whenever he can be released. That will depend upon Judge Beals' determination. Are you ready now for the witness Schniewindt?\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The Marshal will bring into the Courtroom Admiral General Schniewindt.\nOTTOSCHNIEWINDT took the stand and testified as follows:\nTHE PRESIDENT:Raise your right hand and repeat after me. I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.\n(The witness repeated the oath.)\nTHE PRESIDENT:You may be seated.\nDIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. BERGOLD:\nQ.Witness, will you please state to this Tribunal your full name?\nA.Otto Schniewindt.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Dr. Bergold, please warn the witness to withhold his answers as you usually do.\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes. Witness, I ask you to speak slowly in order to enable the translator to follow you and I will ask you every time that I ask you a question to make a short interval before you answer in order to enable the translators to finish with the translation of your answer.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "OTTO", "MR. PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1654, "page_number": "", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "Witness, when were you born?\nA.On the 14th of December, 1887.\nQ.What was your position and your rank you last held in the German 1307 (a) Wehrmacht?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1655, "page_number": "1308", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "A.From the Summer of 1944 I was in the Leader Reserve Fuehrer Reserve -- and prior to that I was Troop Leader.\nQ.And your rank?\nA.Admiral General -- General Admiral.\nQ.Witness, do you remember that during a conference in the Fuehrer's headquarters on the 23 May 1939 you were present?\nA.Yes, I do.\nQ.Witness -- may it please the Tribunal, I am referring to Exhibit No. 3, Document No.L-79, from the Document Book No. 1-A of the prosecution. The so-called Schmundt matter. Witness, first of all I want to ask you could you or can you now state whether Field Marshal Goering, at that time he was Field Marshal, whether he attended this conference?\nA.I must state he was there then I would have said the three Commanders-in-Chief of the Wehrmacht branches -- if you ask me was Field Marshal Goering there then I stop for a little while and I can't swear to it.\nQ.That is, you cannot say with certainty?\nA.No, not with certainty. In any case the whole purpose was to give Hitler's opinion to the leaders of the several branches of the Wehrmacht.\nQ.Go into details. Witness, could you give me a general view of your discussion on this conference and the purpose Hitler called this conference?\nA.That is a question which I did not concern myself with very much in 1939 and which last year when I was here as a witness, I already discussed with other members of this conference; neither did I discuss the whole idea nor can I draw up exactly what the purpose of this conference was. Some of the ideas were discussed there and their ways and their tendencies by the whole thing was so unclear that at the time together with Grossadmiral Raeder, after the conference I asked myself 1308 (a) What was the purpose of this whole thing together with Grossadmiral Raeder.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1657, "page_number": "1309", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "I was of the opinion that the idea of the whole was that Hitler had to introduce all the military leaders into the political situation -- that there was a certain tension in there and the tension was to be expected and that everybody had to be ready, militarily, that is, and things would be necessary to be kept under strictest control with regard to the military and political matters within the next few months. He, Hitler, that is, intended to create a special I don't know what he called it -- but it was a student committee, a special conference for studies of various questions. That particular committee was to examine all military questions and issue all of the necessary decrees to the Wehrmacht parts or branches in order to be ready for any event. Fleet Admiral Raeder and I agreed at the time that the latter in the first place was to be considered the sense of the whole speech held by Hitler. At the time he wanted to have this committee in his hand and hold it there and he knew, he was clear about it, that this would be an institute which would enable the Commanders-in-Chief of the Wehrmacht to understand the situation because after all, this could become a control office, so to speak.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1658, "page_number": "1310", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "That, in a few words, was the tendency. Hitler at the time, of course, endeavored, with respect to this institute, to make it as realistic as possible for the commanders of the Wehrmacht, namely--in my opinion and in Reader's opinion-that severe tensions were to be reproduced, so to speak, in order to convince these leaders of the Wehrmacht of the necessity of such an institution. Of course, at the same time, we spoke of the powers of the various nations--that is, we also spoke of the military power of various nations in Europe at the time, with which there could be friction some time, or where friction could be expected.\nHitler then, in a more or less expert way, gave his decisions on the power of various military units and the power of arms of other nations. However, how precise these statements of Hitler were at that time, I am in no position to say today. In any case, it was a speech which took place within a period of one and a half to two hours, and it was a concept of the whole situation as Hitler imagined it at the time, or as he wanted to suggest it to the military leaders.\nQ.Witness, did you gain the impression that the aggression against European countries was already announced by this conference?\nA.No, under no circumstances.\nQ.Witness, I now come to some details of this question.\nAccording to the Schmundt minutes, Hitler, on the occasion of listing the results of the first World War on warfare, is supposed to have said, under point 4, the following:\n\"If the Army, together with the Luftwaffe and the Navy, has taken the most important positions, then the industrial production is no longer thrown into the battles of the Army, but is of benefit to the Airforce and the Navy.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1659, "page_number": "", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "Witness, can you remember that Hitler explained his views in that manner at that time, or does the possibility exist that this point of view came up later?\nA.Today, of course, I cannot remember which sentence was used, or which words were used, or if such an idea was expressed in this way or in some other way. If this idea was expressed at that time--that is, in May 1310 (a) 1939--I did not know it, and I do not believe it either, because I do not see any logical connection between what at that time was the general idea of the leadership, and the sentence you just read to me.", "speakers": [ "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1660, "page_number": "1311", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "There is no connection between the two.\nHowever, this problem played a very important part. Approximately after the completion of the war against Poland, in other words, I believe around the time of the Western offensive--it could have been before, prior to that, but it also could have been after that--at that time, for a commander-inchief of the Navy it was very clear that one hope that Hitler had after completion of the war against Poland was to be able to conclude a peace with the Western Powers. After that-namely, when this hope could not be fulfilled--that is why, at the time, Rear Admiral Raeder did not miss one single opportunity, with the Ober Commander of the Wehrmacht or with Hitler himself, in order to make suggestions to them that under all circumstances more rearmament capacity should be obtained in reenforcing the submarine weapons or U-boat weapons. If I tried to remember when these discussions took place, I would like to say it was around March 1940 and autumn 1940. At that time Hitler told Rear Admiral Raeder that if the Army fulfills its duties-namely, to bring the Western campaign to a successful conclusion--then the time would come where greater parts of the armament capacity could be transferred to the Navy and, as far as I can remember, also to the Luftwaffe, namely, the Junker 88 program.\nQ.Thank you. Witness, a little further on in the same document Hitler speaks under number 1--it is the next number, after four:\n\"1. In order to judge the weapons and their effect correctly, for instance:", "speakers": [ "Q." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1661, "page_number": "", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "\"(a) The battleship or aircraft carrier, which is the more effective individually or as a whole? The aircraft carrier is the better protection for a convoy.\"\nWitness, at that time were such views already expressed or do you have clues that these views were expressed only at a later time?\n1311 (a)", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1662, "page_number": "1312", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "A.Of course, the evaluation of single weapons or weapon groups took place with regard to Great Britain. In particular, that the idea or the chain of ideas that aircraft carriers were the best protection for convoys was discussed, I do not remember. That is a problem with which England, in the first place, had to concern herself; and I am sure England did that when she had to make up her mind to postpone the building of battleships, which was taking place at the time, and to replace it with the building of aircraft carriers and to increase this whole production. England probably had to do that during the first months of the war, or at least make up its mind to it.\nAs far as we know, and what we learned in Germany, it is a fact that the construction of battleships was slowed down approximately early, or towards the middle of 1940.\nQ.Thank you. I now pass over to another point -and I inform the interpreters that it is the last section but five, and it starts, \"secrecy is the most important requisite for success.\"\n\"Secrecy is the decisive requirement for success. Our object must be kept secret even from Italy or Japan.\"\nCan you remember that at that time Japan was mentioned at all?\nA.No, I don't believe that. Japan at that time, early in 1939, did not play any part whatsoever.\nQ.Hitler then continues:\n\"The break-through in the Maginot Line is still a possibility for Italy and must be studied. The Fuehrer considers that such a break-through is possible.\"\nDuring this conference, had the subject been mentioned that Italy--and I think it is the prolongation of the Maginot Line--that Italy should break through the extended Maginot Line; or was Italy not mentioned at all in that connection?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1663, "page_number": "", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "A.That this idea was discussed at all, I do not remember. I do not remember it, and I don't believe it true either.\n1312 a", "speakers": [ "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1664, "page_number": "1313", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "Q.I now go over to another point; it is the last section but one. \"Working; Principles.\n\"1. No one must be admitted who is not concerned.\n\"2. No one must know more than it is necessary for him to know.\n\"3. When must the person concerned know at the latest? No one must know of the matter earlier than it is necessary for him to know of it.\"\nWitness, is it correct that these principles made up the contents of the so-called Basic Fuehrer-Order No. 1 ?\nA.Yes, and I believe that it was even verbally that way.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1665, "page_number": "1314", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "Q.Can you remember that this basic Fuehrer Order, even at that time in May 1939 existed in that form and was reported to us?\nA.I do not believe that. It was usual in every military discussion, although the same applied to discussions that were not military, concerning secrecy, that of course at the end or at the beginning of a discussion somebody pointed out that the things that were being discussed were to be kept secret. And that, of course, was probably the case when Hitler made this speech. However I think that the formulation which you just read to me is so sharp, let us say, and so striking compared with secret order No. 1 that in January or February 1940 I would have remembered if this consolidation with the written order would have been so sharp with the oral statements made at that time. I would have remembered that at the time, and of course I would have remembered this today, too.\nQ.Witness, you know that the Fuehrer order in the form you see it now was only issued in January 1940,\nA.January or February, 1940.\nQ.Now a last question, witness, it is stated at the end of the document. At the request of Field Marshal Goering the Fuehrer decrees that: a, the various services shall determine what construction is to be undertaken; b, there shall be no alterations in the shipbuilding program; c, the armament programs are to be considered with regard to 1943 or 1944. Can you remember that Goering made such a request at that time?\nA.I cannot remember such a request made by Goering. However, I know that early in 1933 the navy, namely, under Rear Admiral Raeder, put such a request to the Fuehrer. I believe that this request by Raeder was in connection with his idea of the whole thing. With his impression concerning the increase of tension it could he that which was also in connection with the final conclusion of the Czechoslovakia question.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1666, "page_number": "", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "At that time Rear Admiral Raeder suggested Hitler to stop the homogenous building up of the navy, or at least he brought this subject to a discussion, that to build *** for the navy could he carried out in a shorter time. In other words this request was an expression used by Gross Admiral Raeder, that he was worried about the future. At that time Gross Admiral 1314 a Raeder received the following answer from Hitler:", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1667, "page_number": "1315", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "No, don't you worry. The construction of the navy will take place in a homogenous way as we had planned it. And there was a certain construction sector around the middle of 1944 or 1945.\nDR. BERGOLD:No further questions, Your Honor.\nCROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. DENNEY:\nQ.Witness, were you at the Fuehrer conference that preceded the invasion of Poland sometime in August 1939?\nA.I participated in this conference also.\nQ.And that was the first time that you ever heard or believed that Germany was going to invade Poland about August 22, 1939; is that right?\nA.If you ask me the question in this way I cannot give you a clear answer. I also have to state here that the unchangeable belief that an attack was planned on Poland was not discussed during this conference or a speech held by Hitler. As far as I know, Hitler painted, let us say, a very dark picture of the increasing tension between Germany and Poland and that ho had made up his mind at a certain point when the tensions would increase, then to make the decision, as he said at the time, to counter this Polish violation and forceful acts of Poland near the German border and to bring this problem to a final conclusion.\nQ.When did you find out that he was going to attack Poland? You just said that you didn't find it out in the August meeting down at Obersalzburg. When did you find out? The night before they went in?\nA.Even during this speech, I believe on the 23rd or 24th of August. At the time everybody agreed that even this time Hitler would succeed in getting out of this problem or jam and find some sort of political solution as he did with Czechoslovakia.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1668, "page_number": "", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "Q.You didn't have any idea that they were getting ready for war?\nA.Oh, yes, indeed. Of course I did. After all, we also knew with Czechoslovakia that the military units and the political units always endeavored or were afraid that maybe things won't develop as well as the political leadership things, and that is why we prepared ourselves for a war.\n1315 a", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1669, "page_number": "1316", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "Q.Well, then, you were getting ready for war, weren't you? In case things didn't work out with the politicians, why then you would have to go to war -- you and the Luftwaffe and the army.\nA.Well, naturally, it was decisive in case of war that the political leadership -- the political leadership was the decisive factor. Should a war break out, not the army or the navy were the ones who decide on the war, but the political leadership.\nQ.Well, if the political leadership -- and that was Hitler -- decided that you go to war, you were going to support him were you not?\nA.If I agreed with him I do not know. However, an order of the political leadership has to be followed by the Wehrmacht.\nQ.Yes. I don't care whether you agreed with him or not, but if he did give the order for you to go to war, you would go to war, wouldn't you?\nA.Yes, indeed.\nQ.And you were ready for war?\nA.With the insufficient means we had at our disposal, a preparation had to he taken. That the Wehrmacht never was ready for a war, I believe, has already been discussed and clearly shown in the first great trials of last year.\nQ.Well, if we look at 1945, they probably weren't ready. But they had reasonable success starting in 1939, You couldn't say that your campaign starting with Poland, Norway, the Low Countries, France -- you wouldn't say that these were a total loss, would you?\nA.Not at all. However, I am of the opinion that this was not due to the increasing of the German power or of the German Wehrmacht, but rather to the fact that the military status of these countries, first of all in the west, was of such a low level, which level had not been anticipated by the German Wehrmacht, and which surprised all the commanders in chief of the Luftwaffe, the navy, and the Wehrmacht.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1670, "page_number": "", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "Q.In other words, if you had known they were as weak as you say they are you wouldn't have had to do so much to get ready.\nA.If we had known that, of course, that is correct. But one doesn't know those things in general.\n1316 a", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1671, "page_number": "1317", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "Q.Now to get back to this meeting of 23 May, 1939, is that where Hitler talked about concluding a peace with the western powers after the war with Poland?\nA.No, not in this precise formulation. There were never discussions with regard to concluding a peace with this or that party. What you just mentioned concerned concluding peace with the western powers only occurred after the Polish campaign, October and November, 1939, when Hitler held a speech at the Reichstag.\nQ.Well, did he talk at this meeting of May 1939 about the campaign against Poland?\nA.Yes, I believe that this also was discussed; yes.\nQ.Well, if he discussed that, he also had to discuss the possibility of the western powers entering on Poland's side because they had a treaty with Poland, didn't they?\nA.Absolutely. This was also mentioned. I remember now for certain a chain of ideas which read approximately as follows: one could be certain, however, of the fact, that I shall never permit the tension to come so far as to produce a war between Germany and half of the world or with the whole world, or to create a two-front war.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1672, "page_number": "1318", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "Q.He said at that meeting, he did not want to have a two-front war?\nA.Yes, indeed, explicitly.\nQ.Did he talk about the possibility of operations against England at that meeting?\nA.I cannot say yes, but he discussed the fact that the Polish operation could also cause a friction with the western powers, therefore, also with England. That was one of the possibilities he wanted to prevent.\nQ.Himmler did not want to have any trouble with anybody but Poland, is that what you gathered?\nA.Yes. Yes, indeed.\nQ.Just Poland, not anybody else?\nA.Yes.\nQ.Was it at this meeting that he talked about creating a incident to start the Polish war or was that at a later one? Do you recall?\nA.No. No. No. That is one of the points which I always understood after the end of the war, namely that firstly, the so-called bad treatment of the population between Germany and Poland probably had been greatly exaggerated by the German propaganda. Secondly, I learned last year that the attack on the radio station Gleiwitz was not arranged by Poles, but apparently by Germans. Hitler did not specify about the creation of such an incident in May 1939.\nQ.You did not find out until after the war was over that the attack on that radio station, which was allegedly made by Poles actually was made by Germans dressed in Polish uniforms, is that right?\nA.Yes. Yes.\nQ.Do you recall Hitler even saying anything like, \"Don't worry about the incident that will touch off this Polish conflict. I will take care of that. Do you recall his ever saying anything like that either at the meetting under discussion or at the meeting held at Obersalzberg in August 1939:\nA.No not in this connection. He said without his the instigating this, the tension with Poland could be increased so much that the honor of the Reich and the German nation would necessitate an attack.\nQ.An attack by whom?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1673, "page_number": "1319", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "A.An attack by the German Wehrmacht, of course.\nQ.This meeting held in 1939, you had an opportunity to discuss it during the first trial of the United States, that is against Hermann Goering etc.?\nA.No. I did not. I was not examined as a witness. I had been called as a witness here. However, I was not examined. On the basis of my coming to Nurnberg, I interested myself very much in all these various questions.\nQ.And how long did this meeting last? How long?\nA.Well, I would say about an hour and a half to two hours. I believe this is correct.\nQ.Did anybody talk beside Hitler?\nA.No. Nobody else.\nQ.I guess nobody talked very much when he was around. Do you know who else was there.\nA.It all depended upon the subject of the conference. In this case it was a speech by Hitler. Later on, toward the end of August, 1939, it was also an explicitly a speech held by Hitler. There were conferences with the Fuehrer, however, where one could discuss the military operations and how they should be carried out. The military leaders made their oral reports. And then there was a discussion in one or another form of course. Such a discussion was possible, it also was always carried out.\nQ.Do you remember who was at this meeting of May 23, 1939?\nA.The defense counsel asked me about that before.\nQ.I can ask you about it, too.\nA.As the Prosecutor just asked me, according to what I said before, I have to answer: the three leaders of the Wehrmacht, Goering, Brauchitsch and Raeder. And the Chief of the General Staff of the Army, Halder. The Chiefs of the Admiral-Staff were present. Furthermore, General Bodenschatz was there and Schmundt. From the Navy, Puttkammer and Albrecht, and Engl as adjutant out of the army and the adjutant of the Luftwaffe, I do not remember his name. And Jeschoneck, adjutant.\nQ.Jeschoneck was not an adjutant.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1674, "page_number": "", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "A.He was a chief of the general staff of the Luftwaffe. I believe there was a small mistake in translation.\n1319 a", "speakers": [ "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1675, "page_number": "1320", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "Q.That is what I wanted to clear up. Colonel Schmundt was an adjutant then?\nA.Colonel Schmundt was chief adjutant.\nQ.Did you see Keitel there?\nA.Yes. Keitel was probably there, too. Jodl was probably there, too.\nQ.Did you see Milch?\nA.That is just the point in question. I was personally of the opinion that Goering was there at the time, but it has been eight years since that conference and it is quite possible that perhaps Feldmarshall Milch was also there in addition to Reichsmarshall Goering or as his deputy.\nQ.Did you see Warliamont there?\nA.I could not remember that. I do not believe he was.\nQ.Did you hear him say anything about labor at that meeting?\nA.No, I could not recall that any such idea was expressed during tho meeting. I do not see in what connection this problem would have fitted in.\nQ.You don't think at that time that Hitler wanted to go to war with anybody else other than Poland, do you?\nA.Well, that again is the question, if he wanted to. At the time, at least I was of the opinion that it was not his wish to create the friction between Germany and Poland, and at that time he wanted it known he might be forced to do so.\nQ.In other words, you might got into a war with Poland through no fault of your own, maybe Poland would attack you?\nA.The later, I do not believe. One could say that, if I have the right to express a political opinion, that, because of the non-aggression pact which was concluded with Poland in 1939, one could hardly expect an attack of Poland. We counted this could be possible, but not probable.\nQ.You knew in 1939, May, that you had a non-aggression pact with Poland did you not?\nA.I must admit right now I do not remember exactly. There were quite a few pacts also with Poland. One was at that time, May, 1939. If it had any importance, I do not remember such a one.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1676, "page_number": "1321", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "Q.Did you attend any other meetings with all of the chiefs of the various branches of the Wehrmacht between May 1939 and September 1, 1939, except this one which is referred to in Prosecution's Exhibit 3 and the conference at Obersalzberg which was held in August about which we had some talk before?\nA.Well, I only participated in these two conferences with Hitler. As far as I know there was no other conference of all the other Wehrmacht branches before the attack on Poland.\nQ.What did you think this was all about, this May meeting?\nA.Well --\nQ.Did you think he just had you in there to make a speech?\nA.I just tried, when the Defense Counsel, asked me such a question, to give an explanation. I, myself, and also Admiral Raeder recognized the tendency or the intention which Hitler had in this conference of 1939, but under it vaguely, as I said before, the main thing was the Studium Ausschuss, or teaching institutes, which the Fuehrer mentioned toward the end of his speech. The creation of this institute was stressed by him to such an extent that Raeder and I were of the opinion that this was the main topic of the speech which lasted from one and half to two hours. That is why he pointed out the dangers of a war in the East. That is why he mentioned the fact there could be a friction between Germany and the Western powers. Once in a while, in between, he told us, \"Do not worry, I shall not make any fast decisions. I shall see to it that Germany does not come into war with the whole world, etc.\" In other words, according to both Admiral Raeder's opinion and mine, it was not quite a statement concerning war aims or war within a short time, but only the very drastic reasons given for an organizational measure.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1677, "page_number": "1322", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "Q.Do you remember him saying anything about the aim will be to force England to her knees?\nA.The way you just said it now, I don't know. It could be that he said we don't have to make ourselves unreasonable illusions as it will be impossible to force England down to her knees, for instance, with our Uboat weapons, with the U-Boat weapons which was very weak at the time. In other words, the possibility of such being expressed is admitted. However, if this was used I cannot swear to it.\nQ.Well, do you remember talking about England which can be blocked from western France at close quarters by the air force?\nA.No, no I don't remember that.\nQ.Do you remember him talking about the Navy with its submarines extending the range of the blockade?\nA.You mean to extend the range of the blockade? Well, I do not remember exactly, but if this problem was touched upon, however, it sort of fixes the whole chain of ideas with the possibility of the development of war which was discussed, and that could fit in, yes it could.\nQ.Well, you did not have any aircraft carriers in the Navy, did you?\nA.No, we did not. We had only one which was under construction.\nQ.And you did not have any battleships and heavy cruisers to amount to anything, did you?\nA.Well, battleships -- well, we owned two -- two were being constructed, and for a blockade against England we furthermore had the three heavy cruisers which between 1930 and 1935 had already built.\nQ.Well, other than these heavy cruisers that you had, the principal weapon of the Navy was the submarine, was it not?\nA.For such a war as actually took place the submarines, of course, were the best weapons that we could use, on account of the very simple reason that the high sea forces were very very weak. If one prepares oneself for a war explicitly as a war -- as it happened in 1930, then we should have had twenty four times as many submarines, as we actually had at the beginning of the war, in order to wage war successfully against a strong power as England was.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1678, "page_number": "1323", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "QDo you remember him talking about the Army holding positions essential to the Navy and the Airforce, and in that connection he continued saying, if Holland and Belgium were successfully occupied and held, and if France is also defeated, the fundamental conditions for a successful war against England would have been secured?\nAThe ways and possibilities of waging war against England were discussed, at the same time comparisons were made regarding the course of the war in 1914-1918, and it is quite possible that the Fuehrer said that the basis on which the war 1914-1918 was conducted, the high sea warfare as had to be carried out, was not sufficient. That the war against England could be taken into consideration again would have to be carried out on a broader and greater basis. I believe that this was one of the aims which the Fuehrer mentioned, and this Studien-Ausschuss, or teaching institution was to concern itself with it.\nQAs a matter of fact he talked about the World War I, and mentioned the fact that if you had two battleships and two more cruisers in the German Navy in the first World War, and if the battle of the Juetland had been fought in the morning that the British Fleet would have been defeated?\nAI don't know if I do understand the prosecutor's question that the Fuehrer spoke about the Skagerrak, or about battle of Juetland.\nQIn World War I?\nAIn that connection the opinion was accepted by Hitler that had there been two or three more battleships and cruisers, the battle would have been won, is that it?\nQYes, and if the battle had been fought in the morning instead of later in the day, as it happened?\nAI don't remember that.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1679, "page_number": "", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "QYou don't recall him saying anything about that?\nANo, I don't. I believe that I would have recalled all of that if he would have mentioned the Skagerrak battle. No, I don't think so. I don't think so. I don't think that he spoke about those things.\n1323 a", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1680, "page_number": "1324", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "Q.These final principles that Dr. Bergold asked you about, no one must be --- (interruption) no one must be admitted who was not concerned, and so forth?\nA.That is concerning the secrecy, yes, he discussed that I know that, because it is usual that after every conference of such a nature where secret things were discussed, all the participants are told or are reminded of such a secrecy.\nQ.And this was a very important conference, wasn't it?\nA.Indeed.\nMR. DENNEY:Nothing further, Your Honor.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:Witness, you have had a fairly good recollection of the subjects which were discussed at that meeting, had you not?\nA.Yes. Yes, indeed.\nQ.Are you personally acquainted with the Schmundt memorandum?\nA.No, I never read it. I remember from last year, that this Schmundt memorandum was used during that first session and played quite an important part there.\nQ.Well, you knew about the question on the colonies on which the memorandum deals, and in part reads: \"Colonies: Beware of gifts of colonial territory. This does not solve the food problem. Remember - blockage.\" Do you recall that item being discussed?\nA.I am sorry, but I cannot tell you with certainty that I could swear to such a statement. No, I cannot.\nQ.That appears in the memorandum there, and the next item says: \"If fate brings us into conflict with the west, the possession of extensive areas in the East will be advantageous. Upon record harvests we shall be able to rely on even such in time of war then in peace.\" Do you recall that?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "MR. DENNEY", "JUDGE MUSMANNO" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1681, "page_number": "", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "DR. BERGOLD:Excuse me. The witness cannot answer the question from the way you put it, Your Honor. From the way you say that.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:We are not getting anything through the system. I am not getting any response.\n1324 (a)", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD", "JUDGE MUSMANNO" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1682, "page_number": "1325", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "DR. BERGOLD:That one translation that came through in German was that the witness can not understand the question.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:I an reading from the -\nDR. BERGOLD:He said that it was difficult to fight in the East while there could be a conflict with the West. What it said here I shall read it from the German: If such based on a conflict with the West, that the possession of extensive territory in the East was advantageous upon record harvests we shall rely on in time of war instead of peace. I believe I helped Your Honor with this.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:Well, do you recall that item being discussed?\nTHE WITNESS:Well, I must say to my regret, I have to say that I do not remember one sentence, or one certain idea out of a conference which occurred eight years ago. I am afraid I can not state with certainty that I do. However, it is most probable that such an expression as mentioned here in this Schmundt record is in connection with the ideas which I remember at that time with this, and it is possible that such a sentence was used.", "speakers": [ "THE WITNESS", "DR. BERGOLD", "JUDGE MUSMANNO" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1683, "page_number": "1326", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "Q.Then the next item, Population. \"The population of non-German will perform no military service and will be available as a source of labor. Do you recall this discussion?\nDR. BERGOLD:May I read it in German?\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:If you will, please.\nDR. BERGOLD:The population of non-German areas have to be put at the disposal of that country for work later.\"\nBY JUDGE MUSMANNO:\nQ.Do you recall that item being discussed?\nA.No, I don't. I can not remember this question either, and I don't see the logical connection of this either, the logical connection with the chain of ideas that were debated at that time. This sentence is not as probable to me as the one that was mentioned before.\nQ.Well, if he would discuss such a subject as harvests, do you think it is so unlikely that he would discuss a subject such as labor?\nA.Yes, it is possible. It is likely, but I can not swear to it.\nQ.You would not exclude the possibility that he did discuss labor in this sense?\nA.No. I would not. It is possible; that is quite right.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:That is all.\nBY DR. BERGOLD:\nQ.I have one further question, witness. Before you mentioned the fact that Hitler wanted to prevent a two-front war, by all means, and now there is a passus here which I will read to you: \"Japan is one of the important questions. Even if at first, for various reasons, her collaboration with us appears to be somewhat cool and restricted, it is nevertheless in Japan's own interest to take the initiative in attacking Russia in good time.\"", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "JUDGE MUSMANNO" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1684, "page_number": "", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "Was such a chain of ideas mentioned there, or is not this in contradiction with the idea of the prevention of a two-front war?\nA.Well, as far as this statement is concerned, as it was read I can not remember it. I do not recall it, and I don't think that it falls within the logical connection, as, according to my opinion, Hitler made it a basis for his speech at that time 1326 (a) I can not recall, and I do not believe it either.", "speakers": [ "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1685, "page_number": "1327", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "Q.I asked you if Japan was discussed at all.\nA.No, according to my recollection, in May 1939, Japan was not mentioned at all. Japan began to play a certain part in Germany toward the end of 1940. I know that early in 1941, on the basis of operational discussions, a Japanese commission came here to study the German situation -- early in 1941.\nQ.Witness, I shall come back to the question of the extended basis of an attack against England. Did Hitler at the time discuss the point or mention the fact that Holland or the Low Lands and Belgium were to be attacked, or to force them to enter the war against England and to put its country or citizens at their disposal?\nA.This is also a question which I would like to answer Yes or No, but right now 1 can't do either because after eight years I can not be expected to remember.\nDR. BERGOLD:Thank you. I have no further questions.\nBY THE PRESIDENT:\nQ.Do you remember Hitler saying at the meeting in May, \"There will be war. Our tasks is to isolate Poland. The success of the isolation will be decisive\"?\nA.That he used this sentence I do not recall. As of today I would like to give a precise answer, I am sure that such a sentence certainly was not used.\nQ.Well, of course, we do not expect you to remember exactly what was said at the meeting eight years ago, but you do remember that there was talk about the possibility of invading Poland?\nA.Yes. I just wanted to mention that this precision concerning an attack on Poland, in my opinion, was not discussed.\nQ.Do you mean to say that Hitler did not mention Poland?\nA.He did mention it; Hitler did mention Poland, of course.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1686, "page_number": "", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "Q.Did ho mention possible war with Poland?\nA.Yes, He did, yes.\nQ.Did he mention possible invasion of Poland?\nA.In this connection, according to my opinion, no.\n1327 (a)", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1687, "page_number": "1328", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "Q.You talked about war with Poland, but not about invading Poland?\nA.Yes, indeed.\nQ.How else was was with Poland to come about except by Germany invading her?\nA.I just tried to answer this, which was one of the questions of the Prosecutor; namely, that Hitler was of the opinion that the attitude of Poland with respect to our border population was so aggressive that the case could occur that the honor of the German Reich would necessitate an attach against Poland. That, of course, would have led to a provoked aggressive war.\nQ.In other words, he anticipated incidents on the border?\nA.Yes, that is right.\nQ.Well, he was right about that, was he not?\nA.In our opinion at the time, I am sure he was not wrong.\nQ.There was an incident on the border?\nA.Not only the Gleiwitz incident, but also various incidents from Poland against Germany -- people who were attacked and sent from their territories. That, at the time at least, was mentioned. Today I am in no position whatsoever to determine what is true and what is exaggerated.\nQ.Is it your opinion that Hitler ordered the invasion of Poland because of border incidents?\nA.Today I am no longer of that opinion.\nQ.You know better now?\nA.Yes, today I do.\nQ.Was it your opinion in September 1939 that Poland was being invaded because of border incidents?\nA.Absolutely. In 1939 we were in good faith; so was the whole German people. We actually believed in those things", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1688, "page_number": "", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "Q.You believed that border incidents had occurred which justified the invasion of Poland?\nA.Another question, which is more of a political nature though. I could imagine now that the border incidents which were the reason for a war could, of course, have been taken care of on the basis of arbitration.\n1328 (a) However, it is possible that Hitler at the time liked these incidents and that they were welcome to him, so to speak.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1689, "page_number": "1329", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "Q.I think there is a good deal to what you say. He liked them so well that he created at least one himself?\nA.Yes, yes, indeed.\nDR. BERGOLD:No further questions\nMR. DENNEY:No further questions.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The Tribunal will recess so that we may see Judge Beals at this time about the witness Brandt.\nLest you misunderstand, the Court is not recessing until 1:30 now. I may be able to get Mr. Brandt immediately.\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes, I have understood.\nTHE MARSHAL:This Tribunal is in recess for approximately fifteen minutes.\n(A recess was taken)", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "MR. DENNEY", "THE MARSHAL" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1690, "page_number": "1330", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "THE MARSHAL:Tribunal No. 1 is again in session.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The Marshal will bring in Rudolf Brandt to the witness stand.\nRUDOLFBRANDT took the stand and testified as follows:\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:You will raise your right hand and repeat after me. I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.\n(The witness repeated the oath.)\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:You may be seated.\nDR. BERGOLD:May it please the Tribunal, I ask permission first to instruct the witness that he has the right as the defendant in Case 1 to refuse to answer questions that could incriminate him.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The Tribunal will advise the witness to that effect. That is that he may refuse to answer any questions if such answers would tend to incriminate or degrade him.\nDIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. BERGOLD:\nQ.Witness, please speak slowly and I ask further that you interpolate a short pause after my questions before you answer so that the interpreters can interpret my question to its conclusion. Witness, please state to the Court your first and last names.\nA.Rudolf Emil Herman Brandt.\nQ.When were you born, witness?\nA. 2 June 1909.\nQ.What was your last position and rank in the German Reich?\nA.I was personal expert of the previous Reichsfuehrer SS Himmler.\nQ.Witness, do you recall having signed an affidavit on the 30th of August 1946?\nA.Yes.\nDR. BERGOLD:Your Honor, this is the sworn affidavit of the witness, Document No. 191, Exhibit No. 124. The last document in Prosecution Document Book 5-B.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "RUDOLF", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "THE MARSHAL", "JUDGE MUSMANNO" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1691, "page_number": "1331", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "MR. DENNEY:Your Honor please, the second to the last document. It's page 193, another affidavit by the same affiant which is Document No. 242. I assume Dr. Bergold is talking about Document No.NO-191.\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes. Witness, you there stated in the spring of 1941, 1942, rather, Milch empowered SS-Obergruppenfuehrer Karl Wolf, in a letter to carry out the freezing experiments on human beings. Do you know for certain that in this authorization the words \"freezing experiments\" occur?\nA.I cannot recall.\nQ.I now submit this letter to you. It's Document No. 345-PS, Exhibit No. 87, Milch's letter to Wolf on 20 May 1942. Please look at this document. It's in Document Book 5-A.\nMR. DENNEY:Page 19, Document Book 5-A, Your Honor. Milch's letter to Wolf of 20 May. What exhibit number?\nDR. BERGOLD: 87.\nQ.Have you read it?\nA.Yes.\nQ.Is this letter which you are now looking at the letter that you referred to in your affidavit?\nA.May I first ask what this letter really was that mentioned freezing experiments?\nQ.Yes. I am asking you whether this is the letter in question. You said in the spring of 1942 Milch approved from the Luftwaffe in a letter to SS-Obergruppenfuehrer Karl Wolf the carrying out of these freezing experiments on human beings. Now, I asked you previously whether the words \"freezing experiments\" really were mentioned in the letter and you said you couldn't remember. Now, I show you a letter of 20 May 1943, a letter from Milch to Wolf, and my question is is the letter that you have before you the letter that you referred to in your affidavit?\nMR. DENNEY:I don't know the affidavit he is talking about.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1692, "page_number": "", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "I can't find it.\nDR. BERGOLD:Number three.\nMR. DENNEY:Just a thought, your Honor. He is referring to 242 and 1331 a not to 191.", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1693, "page_number": "1332", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "Just so the record will be clear, the exhibit about which Dr. Bergold has been talking is Document No.NO-242and he is talking about the third paragraph on the first page of that document.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Well, he has been talking about two documents. First an affidavit, second a letter.\nMR. DENNEY:Yes, sir, but the affidavit of which he is speaking is the second affidavit of the witness Brandt, which is Document No.NO-242.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Where is that to be found?\nMR. DENNEY:That is the last exhibit in Document Book 5-B. It follows the first affidavit to which, reference is made. Page 196 of Document Book 5-B, Your Honor.", "speakers": [ "MR. DENNEY", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1694, "page_number": "1333", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "BY DR. BERGOLD:\nQ.Witness, my question now is, is this letter that I have submitted to you the letter to which you referred in your affidavit?\nA.I consider it possible, but I cannot say for sure. The explanation was submitted to me in its formulation, and the words \"freezing experiments\" most certainly occurred in it, and it was in this form that it was signed.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Dr. Bergold, in what paragraph of the affidavit is the reference to the letter?\nDR. BERGOLD:Paragraph 3, Your Honor.\nBY DR. BERGOLD:\nQ.Do you mean thus to say that you didn't give any consideration to what you were signing when you signed this affidavit and simply signed it because it was submitted to you?\nA.I cannot now recall the process by which I signed this affidavit.\nQ.When you signed this affidavit was Milch's letter to Wolff, to which you refer hero, shown to you at that moment?\nA.It could be, but I can't say for sure now.\nQ.Witness, I came to point 9 in that affidavit. You speak of the fact that Himmler received a report on these freezing experiments. It reads: \"Himmler acknowledged receipt of this report, a copy of the letter was sent to Karl Wolff. He stated that a copy of the report had been sent to Field Marshal Milch of the Luftwaffe and went on to state that he expected reports regarding the use of animal heat in reviving the frozen subject.\" Do you know for certain that such a letter existed, and can you tell us the contents of such a letter?\nA.That I cannot.\nQ.Do you know of such a copy of Himmler's letter to Wolff?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1695, "page_number": "", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "Was that submitted to you?\nA.In the interrogation, you mean? Yes.\nQ.Yes.\n1333 a", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1696, "page_number": "1334", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "A.I cannot give a precise answer to that, either, because that was quite a way in the past and I can no longer recall.\nQ.I come now to your first affidavit, DocumentNO-191, the next to the last document in the Document Book of the Prosecution.\nMR. DENNEY:Page 193 of 5-B.\nBY DR. BERGOLD:\nQ.I now cite point 12 in this affidavit. You state here: \"Field Marshal E. Milch and Prof. Hippke, inspector of the medical service of the Luftwaffe, were fully informed about the low pressure experiments.\" How do you know that these two men were completely or fully informed about the low pressure experiments? Do you know from your own direct knowledge, or is that simply a deduction?\nA.It is not my own direct knowledge, but a deduction which I drew on the basis of the letter that was assuredly shown to me, or from what the interrogator told me.\nQ.Did you discuss these experiments with Milch?\nA.No, never.\nQ.Do you know whether he ever spoke with Himmler on these experiments?\nA.That I cannot say.\nQ.Witness, is it correct that you have signed a great number of affidavits and that you then later withdrew a large number of these affidavits or limited them?\nA.Yes.\nDR. BERGOLD:No further questions.\nCROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. DENNEY:\nQ.Witness, when did you first find out about these experiments?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1697, "page_number": "", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "A.I can't say the date. It can be seen from the exchange of letters that began in the personal staff.\nQ.Did you know about them in 1941?\nA.I believe that the correspondence took place during that year.\n1334 a", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1698, "page_number": "1335", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "Q.Did you know Rascher?\nA.I knew him slightly.\nQ.How long did you work for Himmler?\nA.Since 1934.\nQ.In 1934 you saw the correspondence that went in and out of his office, didn't you?\nA.Yes, but there was some material there that I did not see.\nQ.Do you recall writing to Rascher sometime in May, 1941, just after Himmler went up to Oslo, telling Rascher that prisoners will be gladly made available for the high flight researches?\nA.Is that a letter in the Document Book?\nQ.It doesn't make any difference whether it is a letter in the Document Book or not. I am just asking you whether or not you recall writing to Dr. Rascher in May 1941 telling him that prisoners would he made available for those experiments.\nA.Yes, I do remember that letter, on the basis of the fact that it is in the Document Book.\nQ.You don't remember anything about it? You don't even remember writing the letter?\nA.I do recall that it was shown to me during an interrogation.\nQ.But today -\nA.But it was only after the interrogator showed it to me that I recalled it. Previous to that I had forgotten that I had written it.\nQ.Well, you say you didn't know Rascher very well. You just knew him slightly?\nA.Yes, just superficially.\nQ.You congratulated him on the birth of a son in that letter, didn't you?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1699, "page_number": "", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "A.Yes, that I remember.\nQ.Well now, you speak of prisoners in this letter. What kind of prisoners did you mean?\n1335 a", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1700, "page_number": "1336", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "A.I assume I meant inmates of concentration camps.\nQ.Concentration Camp inmates. How did people get into concentration camp in Germany?\nA.That I do not know. No. I did not know that any better than anyone else who had nothing to do with it officially.\nQ.And you were Himmler's adjutant from 1934? Is that right?\nA.Not adjutant, but I was responsible for questions involving the general SS.\nQ.You know they had some concentration camps in 1941, did you not?\nA.That camps existed you mean? Yes. That I know.\nQ.How many of them did you know about in 1941?\nA.I find it difficult to say that now for sure, but I knew perhaps of five or six or seven camps.\nQ.What camps were those?\nA.I recall Dachau, Oranienburg -- whether Buchenwald existed at that time, I do not know. Whether I knew of Natzweiler in 1941, I also cannot say. Ravensbrueck and Neuengamme that is all.\nQ.Did you know that they were exterminating people in concentration camps in 1941?\nA.No.\nQ.Did you know the Jews were sent to concentration camps?\nA.I found that out sometime, but I cannot say at what time it was.\nQ.You knew that there was some sort of activity going on in Germany against Jewish people, did you not?\nA.I do not understand the question entirely.\nQ. (Interpreter repeated the question.)\nA.Yes, That I knew.\nQ.When did you first find that out?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1701, "page_number": "", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "A.I cannot state a date, but for all practical purposes, that activity had been going on since January of 1933. That is when the Party took an attitude against the Jews. It was from that time on.\nQ.You did not know any of them were going to concentration camps?\n1336 a", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1702, "page_number": "1337", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "A.I never found out about it officially. I really cannot answer that question.\nQ.Well, you say you never found out about if officially. Did you ever learn unofficially that Jews were going to concentration camps?\nA.I must have found out about it in one way or another. I must have heard of it somehow.\nQ.Well, you were a reasonably important figure in the SS. You were a Sturmbannfuehrer, were you not?\nA.The rank meant nothing in this case. No deductions can be drawn from whatever rank I had.\nQ.You were allowed to sign letters by order, were you be not?\nA.Yes. That was my job.\nQ.And you signed the letter that you wrote to Rascher, by order, Rudolf Brandt, SS-Sturmbannfuehrer, did you not?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1703, "page_number": "1338", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "A.Yes.\nQ.So far as you knew, who were these prisoners who were going to be experimented upon?\nA.At that time I did not know and only found out about it here in the course of my own trial.\nQ.You must have known something about it in May of 1941 because you wrote to Rascher in reply to Rascher's letter to Himmler of 15 May 1941, and in your letter you said, \"I can inform you that prisoners will of course be gladly made available for the high altitude research. I have informed the chief of the Security Police of this agreement of the Reichsfuehrer SS and requested that a competent official be instructed to get in touch with you.\" The \"you\" is Rascher. What kind of prisoners did you think were going to be used in these experiments?\nA.I cannot answer that question because the text of this letter is to he traced hack to an order on the part of Himmler which I simply transmitted in this form to Rascher without concerning myself with the details of the matter.\nQ.Well, you passed on Reichsfuehrer SS Himmler's order to the chief of the Security Police. Who was it at that time in May 1941?\nA.I believe it was Heidrich.\nQ.Did you know Heidrich?\nA.I knew him only when he reported to Himmler and then I saw him at Himmler's.\nQ.Well, you passed on the order to Heidrich?\nA.I do not know whether I passed it on to Heidrich. I sent it to the Chief of the Security Police, to the police adjutant in this case, Himmler's adjutant. Probably a copy of my letter was given to this adjutant. I believe that is the way it must have been. That was the usual procedure in such cases.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1704, "page_number": "", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "Q.In any event you said to Rascher, \"I can inform you that prisoners will of course be available\", did you not?\nA.That is a formulation that I was instructed to use by Himmler.\n1338 a", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1705, "page_number": "1339", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "QYou also said that you had informed the Chief of the Security Police?\nAYes, but not personally. The Security Police had an adjutant with Himmler through whom all these matters passed. Consequently, this formulation is not to be understood as you apparently understand it.\nQDo you know in the letter of Himmler of 15 May, written by Rascher, they talked about people dying in these experiments. This was before the experiments were ever conducted?\nAMay I ask that the question be repeated?\nQYou knew that Rascher in his letter to Himmler of 15 May 1941 stated the experiments are made at permanent Luftwaffe testing stations for altitude research, Munich, the experiments from which the subjects can of course die, and that these experiments would take place with my cooperation. These experiments were essential for high altitude flights and cannot be carried out as has been tried with monkeys who offer entirely different test conditions. I had a very confidential talk with a representative of the Air Force Surgeon who makes these experiments, who is also of the opinion that the question could only be solved by experiments on human persons. Feeble-minded could also be used as test material. You knew that Rascher was writing to Himmler about experimenting on people and that people might die as a result of the experiments?\nAI cannot say today whether at that time I knew that so precisely.\nQHe asked Himmler to make available two or three professional criminals for the experiments.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1706, "page_number": "1340", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "QHe asked you to make available, that is, he asked Himmler to make available two or three professional criminals for the experiment? (Hesitation on the part of witness to answer) Are you going to answer the question, witness?\nAWhether I knew that, I can not say now.\nQAll right. Returning then to your letter to Rascher, the last paragraph of the letter you say therein: \"I shall refer as soon as possible to the second part of your letter.\" What was the second part of the letter, Were you and he talking about feeble-minded people?\nAI can not say now what that was, because I just don't remember details from that time.\nQThen, so far as you are concerned the only people that you knew on whom was experimented were criminals from the concentration camps and Germans who had been condemned to death, is that right?\nAWhat the regulations were I did not know. I merely passed on Himmler's instructions.\nQDid not you read this correspondence. You were writing letters in it.\nANevertheless, I did not know.\nQYou did not know anything about it?\nANo.After this great length of time I can no longer say what I knew then. It was only after an interrogation that finally recalled it to my memory, and then in a broad outline, I did not know details.\nQDid not you know that people had died of these experiments?\nAI can not say whether I knew that or not. It also happened that I did not read the letters or reports themselves, because these were matters that had nothing to do with my sphere of work.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1707, "page_number": "", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "QWhat was your sphere of work. You seemed to have written a lot of letters to various people connected with this enterprise, what was your sphere of work in the SS?\nAI was in charge of the receipts and complaints from the population and from the ranks of the SS.\n1340 a", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1708, "page_number": "1341", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "QComplaints about what?\nAAbout the unjust treatment on the part of SS members, or other offices.\nQDo you remember writing to Rascher in April of 1942, saying that \"Himmler had seen Rascher's letter of April 16th, and that he, Himmler, had shown the same interest in this report as in the one you sent recently, and he would like to make up for him an over-all report of the experiments carried out to date he would like to present personally to the General Fieldmarshall Milch. Kind regards to your wife and yourself. Heil Hitler. Yours, Rudolf Brandt, SS Obersturmfuehrer.\" You had been promoted by that time, hadn't you?\nAYes.\nQDo you remember writing that letter?\nAOnly because it was shown to me again. If it had not been shown to me here I should not have remembered it.\nQIf you had not seen the correspondence which is here involved, you would not even had remembered Dr. Rascher, would you?\nAYes, I certainly would have remembered Rascher.\nQDid you ever find out if any people other than German concentration camp inmates were being used in these experiments?\nAIt could be seen from the correspondence that also Russians were used.\nQYou still not a letter about that, didn't you, from Rascher?\nAFrom Rascher, and an inquiry directed to Himmler regarding a pardon.\nQDo you recall writing an answer about that telegram to Himmler as to whether or not Poles and Russians who had survived the experiments were to be pardoned?\nAHimmler had decided that they should not be pardoned.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1709, "page_number": "", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "QAnd didn't you answer the inquiry from Rascher about it. It was answered by you?\nAOn Himmler's orders.\n1341 a", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1710, "page_number": "1342", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "DR. BERGOLD:Excuse me, what was date of this telegram?\nMR. DENNEY:I do not have the date here now. This afternoon I shall have it. I was just making inquiry as to this witness' recollection as who these people were. The witness admitted that the inquiry was made, and by Himmler in reference to the question whether or not Poles and Jews who survived the experiments were to he pardoned, and the witness has said that he made an answer to that inquiry in the name of Himmler to the effect that they were not. I do not have that document here but I shall have it this afternoon.\nDR. BERGOLD:The date is of importance because we do not know to what experiments this telegram refers, the SS carried out a great number of experiments.\nTHE COURT:The date will be furnished this afternoon.\nMR. DENNEY:I believe it was October 1942. I am not certain, and I don't want to say it for the record at this time.\nBY MR. DENNEY:\nQ.When did you first learn that there were deaths involved in these experiments, if you did learn?\nA.I cannot say the date.\nQ.Well, you must have some idea as to when it was?\nA.I cannot say.\nQ.Do you recall getting a letter from Nini Rascher? Do you know who Nini Rascher was?\nA.Was Rascher's wife, yes, sir. Nini Rascher was his wife.\nQ.Do you recall getting a letter from her addressed to you in April of 1942, dated April 13th, in which she says: \"My husband asks you to get him the permission, if possibly, of the Reichsfuehrer to take important colored photos of his new preparations of persons just dissected. As a rule only black and white photography is permitted in the camp; as he wants to evaluate the preparations later on, these photos will he very important in his work.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "MR. DENNEY", "THE COURT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1711, "page_number": "", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "May I ask you for a short early answer. This letter is forwarded by courier. With their best regards and many thanks, I remain with -- Heil Hitler, yours respectively, Nini Rascher.\"\n1342 a Do you remember getting that letter from her?", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1712, "page_number": "1343", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "A.It was shown to me during my interrogation, and that is why I remember it.\nQ.What did you do about it when you heard that people had been dying there?\nA.I cannot say that, probably I did nothing.\nQ.Did you know a General in the SS named Gluecks?\nA.He was in charge of the concentration camps.\nQ.All of them?\nA.I assume so, but I don't know.\nQ.He was at Oranienburg was he not, in 1942, April?\nA.I believe that was his office.\nQ.You said you did not do anything about this letter. Did not you send a telegram to SS-General Gluecks in which you said the Reichsfuehrer-SS has permitted SS 2nd Lt. Dr. Rascher, who conducts the experiments in Dachau, to make also colored photographs - \"In connection with these experiments will you please take steps accordingly.\" Do you recall sending such a message to General Gluecks of the SS?\nA.Actually, I don't remember it, but on Himmler's orders it was issued as only instructions given by Hitler, which, however, I did not decide on.\nQ.Yes, but Mrs. Rascher wrote you on 13th of April, saying she wanted you to get permission from Himmler, if possible, and you apparently did get the permission, because you signed the telegram, \"Brandt.\" You did not say \"By order of Reichsfuehrer-SS.\" You just sent it to him, and told him to let him take the pictures of the dead bodies?\nA.That does not change the fact that it was Himmler's decision.\nQ.Did you make any inquiries about these people who had died, either on Himmler's request, or as a result of your own curiosity?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1713, "page_number": "", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "A.No.\nQ.You did not get in touch with Rascher?\nA.No.\nQ.You did not get in touch with Mrs. Rascher?\n1343 a", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1714, "page_number": "1344", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "A.No.\nQ.You did not get in touch with anybody at Dachau?\nA.No.\nQ.Of course, you knew these were criminals they were experimenting on?\nA:I assume that I knew that at that time, but I could not state that for certain here under oath, in other words, in general, these matters did not belong to my sphere of work, and for that reason I did not concern myself with them, but singly submitted the question that arose to Himmler and passed on his instructions.\nQ.You had been in the picture of these experiments for almost a year by April 1942, so much so, that Mrs. Rascher wrote to you rather than to Himmler, and she told you in the letter - \"persons just dissected.\" You knew that Rascher was conducting these experiments for the Luftwaffe and the SS, didn't you?\nA.I only knew that experiments were being carried out. I knew of no details.\nQ.Well, whom did you think they were being carried out for? They certainly were not for the Navy, were they?\nA.I did not think about that at all.\nQ.You just knew that Rascher, and some other people down at Dachau were submitting or carrying out experiments on human beings, and that people were dying, and you did not know any more about it?\nA.I know more about it, you say? No.\nMR. DENNEY:Perhaps this would be a convenient time to adjourn, Your Honor.\nDR. BERGOLD:May it please the Tribunal. You are about to recess for lunch, and the question is still open when I shall be able to see the witness Dorsch and Lieutenant-General Engel to speak to before they are produced in court in the afternoon. I have not as yet had the opportunity to speak to them. The question is how can that best be effectuated.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "MR. DENNEY", "A" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1715, "page_number": "1345", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "THE PRESIDENT:Obviously it is to be done this afternoon. Dr. Bergold, the question is when can this Tribunal return this \"Loaner\" to the Tribunal One. He was excused until one-thirty, and I had hoped you would be through with him by that time, but I dare say we can keep him overtime if you have not finished.\nMR. DENNEY:I shall try to be as brief as I can, Your Honor. I have a few more documents to put to him, and I will be as expeditious as I possibly can.\nTHE PRESIDENT:I think perhaps we had better recess within the wrath of Judge Beals, and bring him back here at one-thirty, and then you can examine him deliberately.\nMR. DENNEY:I might add -\nTHE PRESIDENT:How long, Dr. Bergold, will you need to interrogate the witness before you call them?\nDR. BERGOLD:I shall take three-quarters of an hour for both.\nTHE PRESIDENT:For both, together.\nDR. BERGOLD:For both.\nTHE PRESIDENT:We will recess at this time until one-thirty, and then conclude with the examination of this witness, then we will give Dr. Bergold sometime in which to interview his witnesses, and resume as soon as we can after that.", "speakers": [ "MR. DENNEY", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1716, "page_number": "1346", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing re-convened at 1330 hours)\nTHE MARSHALL:Persons in the courtroom will please find their seats. The Tribunal is again in session.\nCROSS-EXAMINATION -- Continued RUDOLPH BRANDT -- Resumed\nQ.Witness, do you recall in March of 1942 -- on 21 March, to be exact--writing to Sievers in reply to a letter of Sievers of 9 March, concerning Dr. Rascher, in which you said, \"Reference is made to the subatmospheric pressure experiments which are being carried out on concentration camp inmates in Dachau camp by the Air Force.\"? Do you remember writing to Sievers on that subject in March of 1942?\nA.I can not recall that. It is possible that I have written. It is quite possible that I wrote, but I can not recall it now.\nQ.And just so the record will be clear, the telegram which was sent concerning the Poles and Russians by Rascher was dated 20 October 1942, and it was addressed to you, and the reply which you sent was dated 22 October 1942, and was sent to an SS-Obersturmfuehrer Schnitzler? Did you know an SS-Obersturmfuehrer named Schnitzler -- S-C-H-N-I-T-Z-L-E-R-?\nA.Yes.\nQ.Where was he stationed?\nA.He was the adjutant of Himmler in Munich.\nQ.And the telegram to Schnitzler was signed by you; to you remember that?\nA.All those documents which are submitted here carry my name because, at Himmler's orders, I passed on his decisions.\nQ.And you told Schnitzler that the information should be passed on to Rascher, that the Himmler decree on pardoning of experimental subjects did not apply to Poles and Russians? Do you recall that?\nA.As far as it is contained in that teletype letter, yes, but I don't really remember it practically. (Witness examined document.) Yes, that is the letter from Himmler which I passed on.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "THE MARSHALL" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1717, "page_number": "1347", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "Q.The telegram which I have just shown you is dated 22 October, and it is signed \"Brandt\", isn't it?\nA.I signed it, yes.\nDR. BERGOLD:These documents have not been introduced in the translated form. I believe it would be a good idea if that would be done so that I can take note of the various details.\nMR. DENNEY:We'll offer them at the proper time, Your Honor. I am showing the witness a photostatic copy of the German original.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Dr. Bergold, Mr. Denney says that a copy will be furnished when the instrument is offered in evidence later.\nBY MR. DENNEY:\nQ.Now, on 27 April 1942 you wrote a letter to Rascher in which you stated \"The Reichsfuehrer has seen your letter of 16 April 1942. He has shown the same interest in this report as in the one which you sent recently. He would like you to make up for him an overall report on the experiments carried out to date, which he would like to present personally to General Field Marshal Milch. With kind regards to your wife and yourself, Heil Hitler, Rudolph Brandt, SS Obersturmbannfuehrer.\" Do you remember sending that letter to Rascher?\nA.I don't recall it, but, as it is here now, I must have written it.\nQ.You don't know anything about it?\nA.No, I don't recall it any more.\nQ.Did you ever see Milch in Himmler's office?\nA.Yes.\nQ.How often?\nA.Not very often.\nQ.But he knew him, didn't he?\nA.I did not understand the question.\nQ.Did Milch know Himmler?\nA.That seems very possible.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1718, "page_number": "1348", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "Q.Now, in October of 1942 - on the 7th of October - do you recall a request made by a Camp Commander who was a Sturmbannfuehrer named Weiss, in a telegram to you sent to number 8 Prinz Albrechtstrasse, stating that the Commander of the Concentration Camp Dachau asks to instruct the Brigadefuehrer Bluecks, of whom we have spoken here before, to send from Ravensbrueck to Dachau the four women wanted by Stabsarzt Dr. Rascher for his experiments? Do you recall getting such a telegram from Sturmbannfuehrer Weiss?\nA.I recall that because that telegram -- I was shown the telegram in my interrogation, otherwise I would not have recalled it at all.\nQ.Do you know what they were going to use these women for?\nA.Yes; it becomes clear from the other document, which I was shown in my own trial, that they were used for rewarming purposes on the experimental subjects which were used for the chilling experiments, but that I only learned from the documents here.\nQ.Do you know a man named Meine, who was an SS Obersturmbannfuehrer?\nA.He was not an SS Obersturmbannfuehrer; he was my collaborator, and an Obersturmfuehrer.\nQ.Obersturmfuehrer. Well, was his name Meine?\nA.Yes.\nQ.Did he work for you?\nA.He was my collaborator.\nQ.And did he send the telegram to Gluecks, at your request, in answer to or pursuant to the request from Weiss?\nA.That becomes clear from the files; yes.\nQ.In which it stated: \"SS Sturmbannfuehrer Dr. Brandt asks you to give instructions for the four women ordered by the Reichsfuehrer SS to be put at the disposal of Dr. Rascher, to be sent from Ravensbrueck to Dachau\"?\nA.Yes; after having seen this document here. Yes.\nQ.Did Himmler send all of his correspondence out through you?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1719, "page_number": "1349", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "2b Feb. 47-A - 14-2 - LJG - Kupperstein (DA)\nA.Part of it. Letters were also sent after immediate conferences with people, of which I had no knowledge at all.\nQ.Now, do you remember writing to Rascher on September 6, 1942, stating that Field Marshal Milch has answered in the meantime the letter of the Reichsfuehrer SS of 25 August 1942; \"He writes that he intends to summon you and Dr. Romberg for a report in the near future\"?\nA.I have no memory of this, as in all these cases. The actual facts were recalled to me here.\nQ.Who was the man who handled the negotiations between Himmler and Milch, in this regard? Was it not General der Waffen SS Karl Wolf?\nA.Whether he had talked, I could not say. As far as the records show, he wrote to Milch once or twice. I don't know whether he saw him personally -- I do not know.\nQ.And you still tell the Court that you don't know for whom these experiments were being carried out?\nA.For the Luftwaffe. After all, Dr. Rascher was a member of the Luftwaffe.\nQ.While the SS was making available these concentration camp inmates for experimental purposes?\nA.I would think so.\nQ.Well, don't you know?\nA.I have not the knowledge of the details which you may think I have.\nQ.Well, everybody seemed to write to you -- Sievers, the head of the Ahnenerbe, Dr. Rascher, Mrs. Rascher. When people wanted the right to photograph bodies that had been dissected, bodies that had obviously been killed in these experiments, when people wanted to get women - live women - for the purpose of using their bodies to rewarm people who had been submerged in the freezing tank, everyone wrote to you.\nA.All these cases have really been attracted to Himmler. It might have been just as easily attracted to another man.\nQ.You replied to many of these inquiries, did you not?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1720, "page_number": "1350", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "A.Yes; of course they were replied to.\nQ.Did Dr. Hippke ever come over to Himmler's office to see him?\nA.I do not know.\nQ.Well, did you ever see him there?\nA.I don't think I've ever seen him, except here in Nurnberg.\nQ.You never saw him around the offices where Himmler was?\nA.I do not recall having seen him.\nMR. DENNEY:No further questions, Your Honor. Oh, excuse me!\nBY MR. DENNEY:\nQ.Were you a member of the Party?\nA.Yes.\nQ.When did you join?\nA.In 1932.\nQ.When were you captured?\nA.May, 1945.\nQ.Where?\nA.In Bremervoehrde.\nQ.By the British?\nA.Yes; by the British.\nQ.Were you taken with Himmler when he was?\nA.No; one day before Himmler was captured.\nQ.Was he captured up there too?\nA.He was captured south of Bremervoehrde.\nMR. DENNEY:No more questions.\nREDIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. BERGOLD:\nQ.Witness, when you were asked before, what the relations were between Himmler and Milch, you stated that you might have misunderstood the first question, in this matter. Do you definitely knew that Milch was in Himmler's office? Did you see him yourself?\nA.I misunderstood that question completely. I did not hear the name Milch. But what I heard was - or I believed I heard - : \"Did you know the Munich office of Himmler's\" which of course is something entirely different.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1721, "page_number": "1351", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "Therefore my reply is not valid now, which I gave", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1722, "page_number": "1352", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "Q.But now I ask you did you personally see Milch in Himmler's offices?\nA.Yes, I believe in his field headquarters.\nQ.Several times or only once?\nA.I believe only once.\nQ.And about what time was that?\nA.I could not say that now. It was in East Prussia. I could not say that with certainty.\nQ.You said before that Rascher was a member of the Luftwaffe. Why in your letters to the ether agencies did you refer to him as the SS Obersturmfuehrer? The translation came before as SS Lieutenant. Why did you call him SS?\nA.The idea was to take him into the SS.\nQ.But was he not a member of the Allgemeine-SS?\nA.I believe he was a member of the Allgemeine-SS too, but I do not know when he joined.\nQ.Were you acquainted with the volume of the experiments?\nA.No.\nQ.Therefore, can you say that the experiments were only for the benefit of the Luftwaffe and not also for the benefit of the SS itself?\nA.These were made for the benefit of the Luftwaffe. It's an assumption of mine which I base on the fact that the experiments themselves were carried out by members of the Luftwaffe and that for instance the high altitude experiments were of no interest to the SS.\nQ.Did you know that Himmler wrote to Rascher and sent him personal instructions with regard to special experiments?\nA.That's possible but I could not say it with certainty.\nDR. BERGOLD:If I may ask Dr. Denney to give me the telegram for just a minute so that I may ask a counter question?\nTHE PRESIDENT:Dr. Bergold, you are, of course, entitled to see any of the documents which Dr. Denney used in examining the witness.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1723, "page_number": "", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "Q.I only wanted to see it so I could ask the rebuttal question from these telegrams. May I see the preceding letter also? (letter is secured) Witness, have you any knowledge of a letter sent by the Reichsfuehrer SS 1352 a on 18 April 1942 in which was ordered that prisoners condemned to death and survived these experiments, that these prisoners should be pardoned?", "speakers": [ "Q." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1724, "page_number": "1353", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "A.I had hardly any recollection of this now but it is quite possible that such a letter had been sent.\nDR. BERGOLD:I have no further questions, your Honor.\nRE-CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. DENNEY:\nQ.Witness, you know that Rascher was a Luftwaffe doctor?\nA.I knew that as a doctor he belonged to the Luftwaffe.\nQ.And you knew they were trying to get him transferred from the Luftwaffe to the SS and that you had some correspondence about that?\nA.There was a very extensive correspondence there.\nQ.And you knew that he didn't ultimately get transferred to the SS until March of 1943?\nA.I don't recollect the date. That he was transferred, I do recall.\nQ.Well, you know that you wrote to SS Obergruppenfuehrer Pohl on 20 November 1942 stating the Reichsfuehrer SS requests that SS Hauptssturmfuehrer Dr. Rascher be transferred from the Luftwaffe to the SS is worked on right now and is to be assisted as much as possible in his experimentation at Dachay?\nA.This letter certainly was sent.\nMR. DENNEY:No further questions.\nRE-DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. BERGOLD:\nQ.Witness, would it be possible that the conference to which you testified before -- the conference between Himmler and Milch, which allegedly took place in Eastern Prussia -- wouldn't it have been possible that conference actually took place in Salzburg?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1725, "page_number": "1354", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "A.No, I did not say anything about a conversation. All I mentioned was that Milch visited Himmler at Himmler's headquarters. I believe also that was part of an invitation which Himmler had sent out to some people of the Fuehrer's headquarters to come and dine with him. I don't think it was an actual conference when I saw Milch with Himmler. I could not say that with certainty.\nDR. BERGOLD:Thank you. I have no further questions, Your Honor.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The Marshal will return this witness to Tribunal I.\nDR. BERGOLD:Now, I would like to ask the Court to have a brief adjournment so that I could talk to the witnesses Engl and Dorsch. It would also be necessary if Room 157 could be put at my disposal for the witnesses so that the witnesses could be taken there from the prison.\nTHE PRESIDENT:That can be arranged. Shall we say until three o'clock.\nDR. BERGOLD:That would be sufficient if the witnesses could be brought in very quickly but sometimes it takes a quarter of an hour until they arrive, in which case the time would be very short.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Will the Marshal see that the witness is brought as soon as possible to Room 157, Col. Mays? That will be done and the Court will resume its session at three o'clock.\nTHE MARSHAL:The Tribunal is in recess until three o'clock.\n(A recess was taken.)", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1726, "page_number": "1355", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "THE MARSHAL:Tribunal Number 2 is again in session.\nDR. BERGOLD:I ask permission to call the witness Lieutenant General Engl.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The Marshal will bring the witness Engl to the witness stand.\nGERHARDENGL, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:\nBY THE PRESIDENT:\nQ.Witness, raise your right hand and repeat after me.\nI swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.\n(The witness repeated the oath).\nTHE PRESIDENT:You may sit down.\nDIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. BERGOLD:\nQ.Witness, I ask you to speak slowly. I ask you further to pause after every one of my questions so that the interpreters may have enough time to interpret my question to its conclusion. Witness, please state your first and last name.\nA.Gerhard Engl.\nQ.When were you born?\nA. 13 April 1906.\nQ.What was your last rank and position in the German Wehrmacht?\nA.My last rank and last position in the German Wehrmacht were Division Commander and Lieutenant General.\nQ.Do you recall that on the 23rd of May 1939 you were present at a conference in the new Reich Chancellory in Hitler's office.\nA.I recall that in May of 1939 I was present at a Hitler conference at least for some length of time although perhaps not during its whole length.\nQ.Witness, what was your position on the 23rd of hay 1939?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "BY THE PRESIDENT", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "THE MARSHAL", "GERHARD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1727, "page_number": "", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "A.I was a captain and was an adjutant of the Army, of the Wehrmacht, in Hitler's adjutanture.\nQ.Witness, can you recall whether Feldmarshall Goering was present at that time?\n1355 a", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1728, "page_number": "1356", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "A.I cannot recall whether Goering was present.\nQ.Witness, was this conference at that time of considerable or brief duration?\nA.So for as I recall, it was rather long.\nQ.Can you tell me roughly how many hours?\nA.That is very difficult after such a lapse of time but I believe it lasted two or three hours.\nQ.Can you give us your general impression of the purpose and aims of that conference?\nA.I know that Hitler spoke at great length, that he said a great deal about armaments and about possible political developments in Europe. I can provide no details since I was not present throughout the whole conference. You must recall that was more than eight years ago.\nQ.Did you have the general impression that this speech was the announcement of the coming agression against Europe?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1729, "page_number": "1357", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "A.No, I cannot say that.\nQ.Why not? Do you want to say it was not an announcement of coming aggression or that you had no impression one way or another?\nA.I remember too few of the details of the conference itself. Hitler spoke a great deal about war at that time, and it was nothing unusual at that time.\nQ.Witness, I should like to refer now to the conclusion of that conference. Can you tell us whether at the end of Hitler's speech he stated the following principle:\n\"First, no one is to take part who does not have to know. \"Secondly, no one should find out more than he must know. \"Thirdly, no one should know anything earlier than necessary.\" Can you recall that these words were said so pregnantly?\nA.No, I cannot remember.\nQ.Is it true that these words arc the content of the so-called basic Fuehrer order?\nA.In the Fuehrer Order Number 1, these words do appear frequently.\nQ.Do you know when, for the first time, this principle was phrased so concisely?\nA.So far as I remember, after secrecy was absolutely necessary. This was quite a while after the beginning of the war.\nQ.Witness, was there discussion at that time of the fact that everything should be kept secret from Japan, or that Japan had its own reason for her reluctance to take steps against Russia.\nA.No. I can say nothing on that subject.\nQ.Is it correct that Hitler spoke in this speech about the fact that he wanted to avoid a two-front war?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1730, "page_number": "", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "A.I do not believe that the two-front war was discussed at all in this conference because I would imagine that I, as an officer, would have noticed such discussion of a twofront war particularly.\n1357 A", "speakers": [ "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1731, "page_number": "1358", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "Q.Do you know whether at that time, there was discussion about breaking through the maginot line from Italy and that this should be studied.\nA.That, too, I cannot recall.\nQ.Witness, do you know that at the end of the conference, Goering began a discussion regarding what the various parts of the Wehrmacht had to do in the way of construction, what the ship-building program was and what years the armaments program should be oriented toward?\nA.I cannot recall that nor can I imagine that it took place, because in General, Hitler's conferences were not subsequently discussed.\nQ.In other words, it was not usual that discussion should take place after such a conference?\nA.So far as I can recall, no.\nQ.One more question, was there any discussion of invading Holland, Belgium or wanting to coerce them to take up arms against England or to make their harbors available to Germany?\nA.I can say nothing precise on that subject, but I could not believe it was at that time. Later, however, there was considerable discussion of that.\nDR. BERGOLD:No further questions.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1732, "page_number": "1359", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. DENNEY:\nQ.You say the conference lasted two or three hours?\nA.Yes, I have said that I believe that would be approximately correct.\nQ.And you were on duty as Adjutant; is that correct?\nA.Yes, as one of the adjutants of the Wehrmacht branches.\nQ.With whom did you come to the meeting?\nA.Really, I went to the Conference alone; there were a large number of participants. We really only had ordnance matters to discuss at that conference.\nQ.How many people who were there, do you recall?\nA.I believe I can say that the high commander of the different branches of the Wehrmacht, were certainly there, I am sure that Colonel-General von Brauchitsch was present. As far as I recall, the chiefs of the General Staff were also present: Colonel General Halder, I believe; General Jeschennek; Grand Admiral Raeder was there, from the Navy. His Chief of Staff was there, whose name I do not know, any longer. A few other gentlemen whom I cannot recall, exactly. Let me emphasize, again, that it was more than eight years ago\nQ.Well, how many would you say were there total, at the Conference, how many made up the party?\nA.I should estimate, from ten to twelve persons.\nQ.Well, you were a captain then, weren't you?\nA.Yes.\nQ.So that you must have gone there as an Aide to somebody. After all, if Hitler had all these people come, and there were only twelve of them, he didn't reach down into the Hauptmann, and bring you there alone, did he?\nA.No, I said I was the Adjutant in the Wehrmacht and was responsible to the High Commander of the Army, and we were to arrange matters for the Army that was to come.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1733, "page_number": "", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "Q.That was von Brauchitsch?\nA.Yes; and the General Staff; those who were members of the Army.\n1359 A MR. DENNEY: I do not think the translation come out correct; you mean \"Halder\", did you not?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1734, "page_number": "1360", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "THEWITNESS: \"H-a-l-d-e-r\"; also yes.\nMR. DENNEY:Did you make any notes of this conference?\nA.No; I took no notes.\nQ.And you never talked to anybody about it, afterwards?\nA.Oh, yes, I probably did. We probably spoke about it, among ourselves.\nQ.Were you in end out of the meeting?\nA.Yes; that is always done, because the telephone had to be serviced. Some documents had to be brought in, that is true of every conference.\nQ.But the ones that go out and fetch things, are the Junior officers, are they not?\nA.No, these are the officers that have to do with ordnance matters; the lower officers.\nQ.Yes, That is what I said, the \"Junior\" officers go out; Hitler wasn't going to run out an bring in anything himself, was he?\nA.I couldn't imagine that he would do such a thing.\nMR. DENNEY:Nor could I.\nQ.Do you know how much of the meeting you were in attendance there, and how much you were out?\nA.That I can no longer say.\nQ.So that when you told Dr. Bergold that Hitler didn't say something about one subject or the other, you might well have been out of the room when he was talking about that; isn't that true?\nA.That is quite possible.\nQ.You are just giving us your best recollection, of some thing that happened almost nine years ago; isn't that right?\nA.That is right.\nQ.Part of the time you were present and part of the time you were absent?\nA.Yes; that's right.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "MR. DENNEY", "THE" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1735, "page_number": "1361", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "MR. DENNEY:No further questions, your Honor.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Mr. Denney, would you think it relevant to ask him whether Milch was there?\nMR. DENNEY:Did you see Field Marshal Milch at the meeting?\nAThat I cannot say; I can give no information on that.\nMR. DENNEY:No further questions.\nTNE PRESIDENT:Just one matter further: One of my associates suggested that I ask you whether or not you wish to give us the impression that Milch was not present at this meeting?\nTHE WITNESS:No. Milch was present.\nDR. BERGOLD:No further questions.\nMR. DENNEY:Who is your next witness?\nDR. BERGOLD:If your Honor please, I wish to call as our next witness: Xavor Dorsch.\nXAVORDORSCH, * witness, took the stand and testified as follows:\nBY JUDGE SPEIGHT: Witness, raise your right hand and repeat after me:\n\"I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.\"\n(The witness repeated the oath.)\nJUDGE SPEIGHT:You may be seated.\nDIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. BERGOLD:\nQPlease state to the court your first and last name?\nAXavor Dorsch.\nQWhen were you born?\nA 24th of December, 1899.\nQWhat was your last position in the German Reich?\nAI was Chief of the Todt Organization, in the Speer Ministry.", "speakers": [ "THE WITNESS", "XAVOR", "JUDGE SPEIGHT", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "TNE PRESIDENT", "MR. DENNEY", "Q", "A" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1736, "page_number": "", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "QOn the 28th of December 1943, you signed an affidavit, can you recall?\nAYes, sir.\nDR. BERGOLD:Your Honor, this is Exhibit No. 74, Document NOKW 447, in the Document Book Four of the Prosecution.\n1361-A The PRESIDENT:", "speakers": [ "A", "DR. BERGOLD", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1737, "page_number": "1362", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "That is on page 151 of the Document Book Four.\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes, your Honor.\nQWitness, you made the following statement:\n\"As deputy of Minister Speer in his capacity as Chief of the Todt Organization, I received from Hitler at the end of April 1944 an order to construct with the OT six bombproof fighter factories, of which two should have priority.\" Can you tell me about the history of this construction?\nAYes, but I must go into detail.\nQProceed.\nAApproximately eight months before this date, I made a suggestion to Minister Speer as to how bombproof factories above around could be built, in this way; not only that they could secure manufacture, but would also be more secure against bomb damage. The source of this idea came from the Todt Organization which had built a similar building for the manufacture of these tools in France. Speer told me that I should take the plans with me on my next visit to the Fuehrer's headquarters, and two weeks later I was with Speer, visiting Hitler, and after other matters had been discussed -- discussions were hold about the Atlantic Wall at that time -- and before going, Speer mentioned this matter and Hitler says: \"We must absolutely achieve bombproof aircraft protection and construction for the Luftwaffe because the danger is so great that transportation can be attached, and then we cannot make up the time we have lost.\" Hitler wanted large-sized, large-scale units, in which planes and fighters could be protected from the beginning to the end, because he saw a danger in the fact that transportation could be Attacked and interrupted, and then the different parts if they were made in various factories could not be assembled any longer.", "speakers": [ "A", "DR. BERGOLD", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1738, "page_number": "1363", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "To said that be imagined the matter roughly as follows: In narrow mountain valleys in Saxonian Switzerland, for example, caves could be dug which would provide these bombproof factory installations. Then Speer said, \"Dorsch, or the OT has another suggestion in regard to this matter,\" and I then submitted to him my plans for the special OT construction, which as I said had already been built in France, and I also showed him the Dutch factories, which, oven as they were being built, were relatively sure against bomb attack.\nThis was roughly eight months before this date in April on which this commission of which I spoke in my affidavit was given to me. Hitler said to me that it was a matter of indifference to him according to what system these things were built but that it was important to him that something really constructive should be done.\nOn the next day there was a discussion on the same subject with Goering. Speer's representative, as Plenipotentiary for Construction Matters, and then the Leador of the Main Committee for Construction, Gaertner, were present. I had to explain again the thought behind this special construction which I was proposing. Goering was greatly enthusiastic and said that that was the solution and that the OT should begin immediately with that construction. There upon Speer said, \"The OT cannot build these factories because the OT builds only outside the Reich, with the exception of the Ruhr district, and in the Reich itself the Main Committee for Construction should carry out the construction,\" and for that reason, he had called the two gentlemen I mentioned above. Goering also said that it was indifferent to him who built the factories, that the important thing was that they should be built soon.\nIn April of 1944 I was visiting Speer at the so-called \"Zoiser Alus\" near Horan when a call came that I should go immediately to Hitler.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1739, "page_number": "", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "Speer asked me if I had any idea what was afoot, but I did not. I wont immediately to Berchtesgaden, There Hitler asked me, \"What has become of your fighter production?\" I told him that I did not know precisely because in the Reich the Todt Organization did not do the constructing but another organization. He was greatly 1363-A excited and said roughly that he had heard enough about this other organization, that he did no want it, and he demanded that the Todt Organization should take over that construction immediately.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1740, "page_number": "1364", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "Then the plans were fetched overnight from Berlin. I explained the whole system to him once more. I told him that I could only carry out these constructions if it were given priority above all other constructions as far as workers, machines, building materials, trucks and so on -- whatever is neede for constructions -- were concerned. I was given assurances that that priority would be given the, and I then took over this construction program.\nI was able to assure myself that the Hauptausschuss Bau -- the Main Committee for Construction -- which had been in charge before I took over had begun at three locations constructions. One of those we immediately closed down because both architecturally and, as the Fighter Staff told me, technically, the factory was not any good.\nCWitness, you then said that the wish to build these bombproof fighter factories by the Todt Organization was communicated to you by the Fighter Staff. What do you know about that personally?\nAI know the following: The Fighter Staff, as far as the entire work of the Plenipotentiary for Construction was concerned, who was responsible for all the constructions in the Reich, was not satisfied with the work. Sauer complained continuously about how work dragged on and asked me repeatedly to step in and do something. He called me to this meetings in the Fighter Staff and asked me to develop further plans. I then was called continuously by other gentlemen.", "speakers": [ "A", "C" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1741, "page_number": "", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "I remember Major Dr. Krelner, who also asked me to stop in and again and again I had to say that that would not do because, I said, the 1364a Todt Organization did not carry out construction in the Reich.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1742, "page_number": "", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "I was pressed continuously by the Fighter Staff, because it was the organization that would benefit from these constructions,\nQDo you know whether Milch went in that direction too, or only Sauer?\nAThat I cannot say. I did not speak about that to him myself. I did speak with Sauer and a few other gentlemen -- I believe with Schlemp, 1364-b who was later representative of the Todt Organization in the Fighter Staff.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1743, "page_number": "1365", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "QWhen was that first pressure on the part of Sauer? Was that before March of 1944? That might have been eight months before you were put in charge.\nAYes. That was in my opinion oven earlier, but I cannot say precisely. It might have been in February, even.\nQ.Do you know whether Sauer visited the Fuehrer in this matter?\nAI was not present, but I assumed that it must have been so, I cannot prove it, however.\nQSo, This afternoon you told me what you thought Milch's function was in the Fighter Staff, You used a rather striking expression. Would you like to repeat it here?\nAI called him \"the breakfast director\",\nQI ask the defendant to pardon the expression. He shouldn't hold it against me.\nQWhat do you mean by this \"breakfast director\"?\nAWell, it is sort of difficult for no to say that.\nQMilch won't be angry.\nAWell, I only saw him at a Fighter Staff meeting once, when he invited me and when he asked for the support of the Todt Organization. No explained to me the general situation. He told me what his worries and troubles were, but the real work, the whole functioning of the thing, I don't believe he concerned himself with. That is why I used tho expression \"breakfast director\", but perhaps that was a little exaggerated.\nQI quite understand. After the end of April 1944, when you were commissioned will these construction matters, what did you do?\nAAs I told Hitler very exactly, I took German Todt Organization units from France and from the Atlantic Wall.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q.", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1744, "page_number": "", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "QHow many was it?\nA 2,000 or 3,000 -- I cannot remember the number exactly.\nQYour affidavit says 10,000.\nANo, that is incorrect. That cannot have been the number in France. The second time that I went to the Plenipotentiary General for 1365-A Chemistry Professor Grau and told him of the serious situation, and I finally brought him to the point of giving me 15,000 workers from his department.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1745, "page_number": "1366", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "QWhat workers were these?\nAFirst of all, in the Baltic States -- that was a Todt Organization itself -- I took away most of the German workers, and took some elsewhere as additional workers, engineers, experts of sons sort or another, machinists. Then came Leuna on the 10th or 12th of May 1944. That was on the occasion of the first attack on Leuna. At that time there was a conference with Hitler with regard to the oil situation. He said, \"This cannot be tolerated -- that at the very moment when we are, as a result of the air attacks, in need of oil, workers are taken away from Leuna.\"\nI then answered him that first of all I had undertaken this measure before the air attack, and secondly, it was not a question of cutting down on oil production, but of oil capacity. Hitler took over and said, \"No, that cannot be.\" Then Speer said, \"If we don't get the workers, we can't do the building.\" Hitler said, \"Quiet down, you will get 50,000 Italians,\" and then I said, \"I don't believe that\", and I said that for the following reasons. We as the Todt Organization had taken such workers from Italy for the construction program Riese in Schlesien, but we did not do this via Sauckel but by applying to Italian firms to take over construction commissions in Germany, and then they automatically brought their workers, their directors and architects, and so on with them, particularly after we had assured them that we with cur organization -- that is to say, with the Todt Organization in Italy -- would take care of paying wages, paying for the hospitalization fees, insurance, and so on, but at the moment when workers were fetched by Sauckel, I understood clearly that workers such as we needed would not be provided in any considerable numbers. At any rate, I told Hitler, \"I do not believe in these Italian workers, and I won't believe in them until they have crossed the Brenner Pass.\" He then said to me, \"You can believe in them because tomorrow Mussolini is signing an agreement that 1,000,000 workers will come to Germany.\"", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1746, "page_number": "1367", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "He then said to me: \"You can believe in then, because, tomorrow, Mussolini is finding an agreement that one million workers will come to Germany.\" If I nay mention it, it is also worthy of mention, that in January, the beginning of January, I was at a conference with Hitler, or rather, I did not take part in it, but I knew of it. There, a new worker contingent was demanded, and, in this conference, Hitler himself named the number of 250,000 workers mainly for the construction of bomb proof facilities. In other words, it wasn't Speer but Hitler who demanded those workers, and it is possible - that at any rate, it is the way I construetit now - that he was thinking of these fighter plants. Then I asked Hitler to obtain for me 10,000 OT Todt Organization workers from Southern Russia. I must mention that here, because I did that as Speer's representative with Hitler. I could have said to Speer that he should give me those 10,000 workers. I had to do that through Hitler, because the High Commanders, in this case the High Commander of the Army Group of Southern Russia, were in charge of these people and they had to be released by them. Thereupon those 10,000 OT workers were released. However, they unfortunately arrived very slowly and some of them never got to the fighter plant, but were taken over by Speer to build bomb proof constructions for roller bearings - ball bearing plants - in Wellen, in Thuringia, and then, when no workers came, the plants were to be built by Hungarian Jews. I do not know precisely when it was, but I do remember an armaments conference in Linz - I guess it was about the middle of June or maybe later, but I can't say for sure - and it was then that the first one began to arrive.\nQWere they approved by Hitler?", "speakers": [ "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1747, "page_number": "", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "A Yes.\nQWitness, when you of the Todt Organizations fetched Italians on your own initiative, were they volunteers or were they more or less forced labor?\nAPrecisely in Italy, we had very good work because as a matter of principle we turned to Italian firms, gave then contracts and they provided the workers. I believe I can say that the Todt Organizations was 1367 a known for taking model care of its workers.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1748, "page_number": "1368", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "I like to mention, for instance, in Norway and Holland, the Dutch or Norwegian Todt worker received higher wages than the German OT, who was working right beside him. I consider it very important to make this statement here, if I am permitted to make use of this opportunity.\nQBut that is not an answer to my question, whether they were volunteers or forced labor?\nAThey were not forced. They were brought by their firms.\nQThrough the Italian firms?\nAYes; that was, from the very beginning, the intention, so that the Italian firms could provide their trained and expert personnel to us, and in this way, they were simply volunteers; volunteers do much better work than people who are forced.\nDR. BERGOLD:No further questions.\nCROSS-EXAMINATION DY MR. KING:\nQWitness, you stated that Milch was only present at a few of the early meetings of the Jaegerstab. May I ask you -\nAWhat I said refers only to these meetings of the fighter staff at which I was present and that was perhaps four or five.\nQNow, you said, in your affidavit, which has been submitted as a prosecution exhibit referred to by Dr. Bergold, you received an order for the construction of fighter factories at the end of April 1944?\nAYes.\nQDo you recall being present at a conference at Berchtesgaden with Goering, among others, on the 19th of April, 1944?\nAI cannot say whether that was the precise date, but I did take part in some such conference.\nQDo you recall who was present at that conference?\nAYes. Goering was there, Filch was there; the others I'm not sure about. Sauer -- I'm not sure he was there. I know for sure that Milch and Goering were present, but as to the others I no longer recall.\nQDo you recall what was discussed at this conference?", "speakers": [ "A", "DR. BERGOLD", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1749, "page_number": "1369", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "AThe construction of fighter plants was discussed there, and, if I remember, Goering pointed out that the OT was to receive all sorts of support but I do not remember the details at the moment.\nQAnd a few days later, on April 21, 1944, you received the order from Hitler to build the six fighter plants?\nAYes.\nQDo you recall that possible sources of labor were discussed at this meeting? That is, labor for the construction of the fighter factories?\nAI should like to assume that, but I do not remember precisely now. Probably all sorts of conditions and possibilities were discussed, but I cannot answer this precisely.\nQYou were discussing a large scale construction; you must have known where this labor was to come from. Can you tell me what possible sources were discussed at that meeting?\nAI do not knew whether or not that question was discussed at this conference. I assume that it was, but that was such a long time ago that it is impossible for me to recall these details. But I was clear in my own mind about the fact. That we needed so and so many workers, was of course obvious. I did make the demand that this construction program should receive top priority and I stated previously that I wanted primarily German workers, which was then done, and in the sector of the plenipotentiary General for Chemistry, I wanted to take some workers; I was convinced of the fact that in Germany it was still possible to obtain workers. Later, when we of the OT took over the construction program in Germany, we saw that a large number of construction offices had so little manpower that they had to stop production, and there again we found workers. If I may mention this again, the whole situation was somewhat unclear because when we took over building these fighter factories, the entire construction had to be turned over to the OT, and no one could take the responsibility for such important constructions unless he could control the direction of the whole construction program, but, with the best will in the world, I can't recall the details. There wore so many conferences, one followed the other so rapidly, I do not any longer recall.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1750, "page_number": "", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "QWho was your representative at meetings of the Fighter Staff?\n1369a", "speakers": [ "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1751, "page_number": "1370", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "ASchlemp, first of all; even before I was commissioned with this task he was the construction technical adviser or expert in general. Sauer asked me at that time to regard him as the liaison engineer between the Todt Organization and the Fighter Staff. Then, about the middle of June, Schlemp became Group Leader of the OT unit in Prague, for which reason I provided one of my best men, namely, Knipping, and I used him in what had previously been Schlemp's capacity.\nQDo you recall that Schlemp, and later Knipping, reported on the progress of the construction to the Jaegerstab?\nAI am convinced that they did because that was their job.\nQNow, during this period, that is, the period, when these six to ten fighter factories were constructed, approximately how many men were used on these projects?", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1752, "page_number": "1371", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "AI shall have to think for a moment how many were really under construction, because I know that there were five fighter factories that did not get any further, because they did not get the workers to build the other ones, and, particularly, because after concentrated air attacks on the part of the enemy, on tho hydraulic works, the construction work to rebuild the hydraulic works received first priority. From the first raid on Leuna until the Fall of 1944 one hundred twelve additional men were transferred from Leuna to reconstruct tho hydraulic works, consequently, it was simply impossible both in the questions of number and in the questions of work intensity to take care of the fighter program. The fighter production task simply was not so important in comparison to these others because it could not be solved any more. How many workers really were employed I can only estimate at this time. It was perhaps twelve to fifteen thousand, but I cannot even say, even half-way precisely after this long period of time.\nQNow can you give me percentage wise the breakdown of this labor by groups, that is, prisoners of war labor, foreign labor, concentration camp labor, German labor?\nA.That I could only do at this moment with the most general estimate, with vagueness, in Kauffering there were perhaps sixty percent from the concentration camps; however, prisoners of war so far as I know were not there at all. The rest must have been Germans. In Muehldorf where the second factory was, the situation was roughly the same, but I really cannot say. I visited each one of these factories only twice, because after tho attack on the hydraulic plants, the transportation system and the Rhino bridges, I was no longer in a position to take care of these tasks.\nQ.Now did you obtain any of this labor for the construction projects? Do you recall obtaining any of this from Schmelter?\nA.I take it that Hitler himself had approved these workers. Our request went to Schmelter, and he was working his own men in that Todt organization, in the fighter staff, and it was his job to settle the details when they should come, and also the payment of workers, and such natters.", "speakers": [ "A", "A.", "Q.", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1753, "page_number": "", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "That was Schmelter's job, and Schmelter was told that this in general is the technical task, and he knew that Hitler had approved the workers, and so 1371 a it was his job to take care of the details, and to inform the Einsatzgruppe what it should do.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1754, "page_number": "1372", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "I did not take care of these things in detail after that.\nQ.Now about Kauffering, do you recall how large a construction was at Kauffering. I am speaking both of Kauffering One and Kauffering Two?\nA.You mean the technical construction?\nQ.Yes.\nA.There was one main hall in Kauffering One, about throe hundred meters long, ninety meters wide, with six stories as far as I remember. Kauffering Two stopped production later and everything was concentrated in Kauffering One.\nQ.Do you recall how much of this construction was completed?\nA.I should think about three-fourths of this construction was completed. At the last time I visited this construction that was shortly before the collapse, the machines were being installed in on one side of the building, and that is as far as it got.\nQ.And to whom was this plant allocated?\nA.That I cannot say. In my opinion Messerschmidt, but I must be careful what I say here, because in the last week before the collapse there were negotiations with the Armament Staff. I cannot remember what that situation was in Kauffering, but in Muehldorf there was suddenly talk of putting Buna in there. That changed continuously, dependent on the war situation. Once Speer wanted to set up a steel foundry in the fighter factory which was under construction in the Rhineland, which was then later changed.\nQ.That answers my question, witness. Now on these inspections at Kauffering, do you recall that any Luftwaffe representatives inspected these construction sites?\nA.That I don't know. I cannot say. A Colonel of the Luftwaffe was there but in his capacity of a representative of the Armement, also for the Armament Commando.\nQ.Now getting back to this meeting of April 19, 1944, do you recall that Speer was present there?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1755, "page_number": "1373", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "A.No. I am sure he was not.\nQ.How were your relations with Speer at that time?\nA.They were tense. Speer I believe did not regard the OT as a sort of construction organization as he wanted it to be. I should have to go into great detail on this subject, to make a statement.\nQ.I think that suffices. Now with regard to the recruitment of those fifty thousand Italians, which you discussed with Dr. Bergold, do you recall who was to handle the recruitment of these Italians for work in the Reich?\nA.To be sure that I do not make any false statement. Did you ask this in regard to the question as to who recruited the 50,000 Italians that Hitler had promised.\nQMy concern is as through what channel were these Italians that were promised Hitler by Mussolini, through what channels were they recruited?\nA.As I said before, Hardly one of the 50,000 Italians actually arrived. That was taken care of by Sauckel, but we of the Todt Organization, through the OT offices in Italy contracted Italian firms directly for a construction in Silesia, and that was done by the OT office in Italy.\nQ.Now with regard to these Italians, do you know what provision was made for the guarding of these that were to arrive, that is, enroute?\nA.Of that I know nothing, because they did not arrive. They were not watched, or guarded at all. They were free workers, there was no reason to guard them.\nQ.Now witness, outside of Kauffering, can you tell me where and under what names these other fighter factories were to be located?\nA.In Muehldorf, and then there was a factory in Vaihingen.\nQ.Just a minute. Now with regard to Nuehldorf, can you tell me what that was to be used for, who it was to be used by?\nA.First it was thought of as a fighter factory, and then there was previously, a. few weeks before the collapse, a conference of the Armament Industry in Munich, at which it was agreed that it could be used for the manufacture of buna; then suddenly, they turned away from that.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1756, "page_number": "", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "1373 a", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1757, "page_number": "1374", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "Q.What time did that conference at Munich take place?\nA.That must have been perhaps at the end of March 1945.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1758, "page_number": "", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "Q.Now, with regard to Muehldorf, can you tell me whore, primarily, this labor was coming from?\nA.These were Hungarian Jews. There were Germans there, out where they came from, that I don't know.\nQ.Well now, with regard to those Hungarian Jews, can you tell mo whether that was a result of a special action in Hungary?\nA.I don't believe so, but I don't know. We were only told that we were going to receive Hungarian Jews. They were already in Germany, if I remember, but where they came from I don't know because I didn't concern myself. I was merely interested in the fact that they actually will come.\nQ.But you do recall that Hungarian Jews wore used on that site?\nA.Yes.\nQ.Now, with regard to these other factories, we have covered Kauffering and Muehldorf, can you toll me the location of the others?\nA.Vaihingen-that was a that was already under construction before the OT stepped in.\nQ.Witness, where was that located?\nA.V-A-I-H-I-N-G-E-N, that is in Wurttemberg.\nQ.And how largo was that construction?\nA.It was a building about 100 meters by 60, four or five stories high.\nQ.And do you recall what type of workers were used in that construction?\nA.Concentration camp inmates, but I don't know the number.\nQ.And that was in Thuringia?\nA.No, in Wurttemberg.\nQ.Now, do you recall that any of these factories was to be located in the Protectorate?\nA.One was to be erected there, yes, in the neighborhood of Prague, but so far as I know they never got around to it. Perhaps the groundwork was carried out and the machines were shipped there, but the factory itself was not actually built. Then there was to be another one in the Rhineland 1375 I have already mentioned that.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1759, "page_number": "", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "QWitness, with regard to this factory in the Protectorate, can you give me the code name for that factory?\nA.No, I don't know it. It was about 50 kilometers north of Prague.\nQAnd that was to be used by what company?\nA.I can't say; I don't know.\nQCan you give me any indication of the size of that factory?\nAThe one north of Prague? Yes. That would have been about the same size as Kauffering, roughly, but, as I say, I really don't know whether they got construction under way there.\nQBut you were to construct it?\nAYes, it would have been done under my supervision, or under my direction. I was Speer's representative and chief of the Todt Organization.\nQBut you don't know how far along or whether construction was initiated there?\nAI cannot say for sure. I suppose that they started the construction, that rails and dredgers were installed, but so far as I know they did not get this factory actually built.\nQNow, with regard to this factory in the Rhineland, can you tell me where that was to be located?\nAI can't remember the name any more. I was there once, and I can perhaps locate it on the map. It was west of the Rhine, 70 to 80 kilometers, but I can't remember the name any longer. It was under construction and then the construction was interrupted by military events, that is, when the Americans wore moving into the Ruhr area. Nor do I know whether concentration camp inmates were used there.\nQDo you recall whether foreign labor was used?\nAIn the construction project? That I cannot say.\nQYou don't recall constructing any factories for Wiener-Neustadt?\nANo.\nQ ******** 1376.\nA ****** Q *******", "speakers": [ "A", "A.", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1760, "page_number": "", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "QOr the Aus Motor Works at Steyr, in Austria\nANo.\nQFocke-Wulf, in Bremen?\n1376a", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1761, "page_number": "1377", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "ANo, in Bromen we only built a U-boat factory.\nQDo you recall constructing any factories for Heinkel?\nAThat I don't know. I wasn't really interested in such questions, because I received the data from the Fighter Staff, and the Fighter Staff did the actual construction. The engineer of the OT built the house, and then the fighter staff took care of the rest with the construction firms. There were no discussions at all or. my part with construction firms. Moreover, I didn't even have time to carry cut such things.\nQBut you got your labor through Schmelter, who was a member of the Jaegerstab?\nAYes, he was a member of the Fighter Staff, and I have already said that he was also the leader of the Arbeitseinsatz in the OT. He was in charge. At first he was entirely within the OT, and. then later he was what you might call the leader for the allocation of labor in Speer's Ministry, and was in charge later of the allocation of labor in the OT. At the same time, he performed the same function in the Fighter Staff, so that automatically there was a connection between tho OT and the Fighter Staff.\nMR. KING:I have no further questions, Your Honor.\nREDIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. BERGOLD:\nQWitness, I have one more question. When were these Hungarian Jews put to work at Muehldorf?\nAI do not know about Muehldorf, but I can recall that at Kauffering the first ones came--and hero I must guess-at the end or the beginning of June 1944.\nDR. BERGOLD:Thank you, I have no further questions.\nMR. KING:I have one further question, if Your Honor pleases.\nDR. BERGOLD:I have just heard that the interpreter was inaccurate. The witness spoke of tho end and the middle of June, and the interpreter said \"the beginning of June.\"", "speakers": [ "A", "MR. KING", "DR. BERGOLD", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1762, "page_number": "", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "THEINTERPRETER: \"The middle or the end of June\" is what the witness 1377A said, but he is not sure about it.", "speakers": [ "THE" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1763, "page_number": "1378", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. KING:\nQNow witness, with respect to this construction at Kauffering, can you tell me when that was initiated?\nAIn may of 1944 it must have begun, the beginning of May.\nQAnd that was also true of the other fighter factories that you were to construct under the Hitler Order?\nAVery soon, perhaps two weeks later, the construction in Muehldorf began; the construction in Vaihingen that I mentioned before was already under way, and I took it over. The construction in the Rhineland started considerably later, it could have been perhaps at the end of June; Prague came along, much later.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1764, "page_number": "1379", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "QNow, you say that you were at Kauffering on two separate occasions. Did you have any opportunity to-\nA (Interposing) I was in Kauffering three times. Do you want to know when? in Hay 1944; at the beginning of January 1945; and then once more just before the capitulation, perhaps two or three weeks before the capitulation.\nQDo you recall anything about the conditions at Kauffering; that is, the conditions of labor?\nAI only saw the construction site. When I was in Munic in June, Niebermann, who was responsible for the construction, told me that the Hungarian Jews were poorly clothed and poorly fed in part. I then told the competent SS man, whose name I no longer recall--but he was there in Munich, in Niebermann's office--and I pointed out to him that this was the responsibility of the SS and he should see to it that these men were decently clothed.\nQWitness, do you recall any reports of deaths of Hungarian Jews on the-project?\nARoughly, in October, our physician told me that the fatalities in Kauffering were higher than normal. I then commissioned that physician to take up negotiations with the SS to improve conditions.\nI should like to say explicitly that the OT, and this also included myself, was forbidden to enter the camps. The physician tried to send medicines to the camp, and was successful. I can remember a date precisely, namely, one on which I was operated on--that is why I remember it--it was the 13. of November, at which time the physician told me that he had succeeded in bringing these bad hygienic conditions to an end after considerable effort with the SS. I remember the date because it coincided with a sickness of my own.\nMR. KING:I have no further questions, Your Honor.\nDR. BERGOLD:No further questions.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The Marshal may remove this witness.", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "Q", "A", "MR. KING" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1765, "page_number": "", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "(Witness Excused)\nDR. BERGOLD:Mr. President.\nTHE PRESIDENT:What witnesses do you have for tomorrow?\n1379a", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1766, "page_number": "1380", "date": "24 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-24", "text": "DR. BERGOLD:None. No other witness have arrived. General Roetter and General Verwaldt and Colonel Petersen, who is in the hands of the Starnberg CIC, are the only main ones still missing, and I have heard nothing from these three.\nTHE PRESIDENT:We will have a general recess until tomorrow morning at 9:30. I will ask Mr. Denney and Dr. Bergold to see me in my chambers to lay out the work f r tomorrow. We will recess at this time.\nTHE MARSHAL:This Tribunal is in recess until 0930 tomorrow morning.\n(At 1650 hours, 24 February 1947, a recess was \"taken until Wednesday, 26 February 1947, at 0930 hours.)", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1767, "page_number": "1381", "date": "03 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-03", "text": "Official Transcript of tho American Military Tribunal in the Matter of the United States of America against Erhard Milch, defendant, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 3 March 1947, 1015 - 1650 hours, Justice Tons presiding.\nTHE MARSHAL:Persons in tho courtroom will please find their seats.\nThe Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal II.\nMilitary Tribunal II is now in session, God save the United States of America and this honorable Tribunal.\nThere will be order in the Court.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The Marshal will bring in the witness Roeder.\nMANFREDROEDER, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:\nTHE PRESIDENT:The witness will raise his right hand and repeat after me: I swear by God, the Omniscient and Omnipotent, that I will speak the whole truth and will withhold and add nothing.\n(The witness repeated the oath.)\nTHE PRESIDENT:You may be seated.\nDIRECT EXAMINATION DR. BERGOLD:\nQ.Witness, please speak slowly and Blake a certain pause after every question I ask you before you answer my question. This will enable the interpreters to complete the translation of my questions.\nWill you tell this Tribunal your first and last name?\nAManfred Roeder.\nQWhen were you born?\nA 20 August 1900.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "MANFRED", "A", "THE PRESIDENT", "Q", "THE MARSHAL" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1768, "page_number": "", "date": "03 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-03", "text": "Q.What were the rank and official position which you last held in the German Wehrmacht?\nA.I was last General Judge.\nQ.Witness, please make a pause.\nA.I was last General Judge and Chief Judge of the Air Fleet IV under Colonel General Lester.\nQ.Do you know Mr. Milch?\n1381-A", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1769, "page_number": "1382", "date": "03 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-03", "text": "AI met Herr Milch in 1935 for the first time when tho Air Fleet Justice was being built up.\nQFrom what time on did you have any official dealings with him?\nAI had official dealings with him inApril 1942--or rather, from 1942 to October 1942 on the occasion of an investigation , which was to clear his death, and, furthermore, the failure of the German air armamont in 1942 in the field of engine manufacture and also in tho body manufacturing of the air armement.\nQWere you not also president of the special court which mas under Milch?\nAI was supervisory judge of the Luftgau III and IV. As such I had in the field of those two Luftgaus approximately seven to eight courts. Amongst these in October 1942 a Field Court was set up, FbZ, which was for technical matters, in particular at the disposal of tho GL, as the burdening of all tho other field courts with technical matters was not bearable, and that court was occupied mainly with judges who had a certain technical knowledge.\nQThis Tribunal was under Mr. Milch?\nAIn this Tribunal Field Marshal Milch at tho time was Supreme Judge.\nQWitness, can you tell this Tribunal what your experience with Mr. Milch was--whether ho insisted on strong penalties or was rather lenient?\nAAs supervisory judge, I had the judgment and representation responsible be the control division of jurisdiction. Consequently, my task was to be in contact with the individual judges. Field Marshal Milch was considered a man who in his expressions was rather strong and used strong and hard words, but whose attitude later on was very lenient and good, and who very often reduced certain sentences that we passed and deemed necessary in the interest of the great good.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1770, "page_number": "", "date": "03 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-03", "text": "I know a number of cases like that because in one case the Ministry, in other words, the Central Division of Jurisdiction, was not quite agreed to that, that he had reduced it.\nQCould you tell us of single examples?\n1382a", "speakers": [ "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1771, "page_number": "1383", "date": "03 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-03", "text": "AYes. In 1940 a Captain Mueller, a squadron loader of a reconnaissance group, because of a misappropriation of NV funds, was sentenced to one year in jail and loss of rank. He committed that out of pure carelesness. He used the money for Festivities and for women. Otherwise, he mas a man who was an alert and good flier. General Field Marshal Milch saw to it that tho sentence mas reduced to three months in jail without loss of rank and that tho man was put in the squadron for activity at the front.\nQDo you know of tho case Rautenbach?\nAYes, I do remember this case. Rautenbach was a man from the aluminum Industry. He had his factory in Reinland-Westfalen. Then his factory had to be transferred to another place because of tho air raids, and it was rebuilt in Berniger-Rhode. For that purpose, the Bank for Aviation had given a certain transfer credit, and out of this credit the machinery had to be bought for the factory in Berninger-Rhode. Rautenbach took out of this money, which was intended solely for tho outfitting of the factory, 800,000 Marks and he built a beautiful villa. According to the regulations of the war economy, this was not permitted. The members of the staff announced this, and General Field Marshall Milch ordered the Field Tribunal to investigate immediately. His words were as follows: \"Catch the guy and shoot him to death,\" he said. \"I want to have this matter investigated immediately.\" When I wanted to leave the room, Milch told me, \"As far as that goes, he is my best aluminum expert. He has accomplished the biggest quotas, also, in the remelting process, please be rather careful with him as to how this matter develops.\" Between the first words and the statements made later on there were only a few minutes, but his whole attitude had changed within those few minutes.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1772, "page_number": "", "date": "03 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-03", "text": "Rautenbach, who was then in Berninger-Rhode, was examined there and transferred to Berlin for further examination. Then I personally went to see Milch. I told him that the sum of 600,000 Harks was highly exaggerated and that in a construction contingent of five or six millions, 70,000 Harks, approximately, had been used for rebuilding the villa. That is how the matter became entirely different. However, in itself it was still punishable.\n1383a The final decision was that there would not be any proceedings until the end of the war.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1773, "page_number": "1384", "date": "05 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-05", "text": "Milch discussed the matter with Rautenbach and told him to be worthy of this concession and, \"I hope that your output will be increased by thirty per cent.\" Quite a few months later I happened to be in the ante-room of the Field Director whoso name I don't remember when Milch came out of his office and, with tho friendliest smile on his face, told me, \"You see, Rautenbach has already increased his output by 15 per cent.\"\nQThat is enough. He wanted to have the man shot first, and then a few minutes later he said, \"Be careful with him?\"\nAYes, that is the way it happened frequently.\nQDo you remember a case where ho tried to bring people over to tho Luftwaffe Courts when they were in the hands of the Gestapo or who were put before special courts, in order to prevent them from being sentenced to death, which they would have had to expect?\nAYes, it occurred very often that the Gestapo captured members of the Luftwaffe and was not willing to put them before tho regular courts of the Luftwaffe. They often said that political reasons also were decisive, that the normal procedure could not be followed.\nThe first case which caused us trouble, that tho intrusion into the military jurisdiction should not occur, was in 1938, when a Ministerial Director, Schwartz, because of alleged monarchistic activity, was arrested by tho Gestapo.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1774, "page_number": "1385", "date": "03 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-03", "text": "I learned about that when I was supervisory judge in Luftgau 3, and I tried to help Schwarz, who had been with the Gestapo for ten days, and to transfer him into tho military jurisdiction. This was not quite easy. However, later on I succeeded in, with the help of Milch, General Weidl, and the Chief of the Luftwaffe Jurisdiction, von Hammerstein, the Ministerial Director, I succeeded in bringing this military director, Schwarz, before a military tribunal and to remove him from captivity of the Gestapo. Later on, on the basis of innocence, he was acquitted, pardoned, and upon application of Milch he was used as a military director again, in which position ho remained until the end of the war. A further case was the arrest of the two directors of Radio OPTA, which used to be Radio Loewe, who had boon arrested by the Gestapo because of alleged economy sabotage. In reality, however, there were rather small differences and monetary discrepancies between these two and the Gauleiter Goerlitzer, They had been sent to the Concentration Camp Oranienburg. Milch called me up and I was asked to go immediately to the Gostapo and talk to them in my official capacity. I actually succeeded in, on the basis of the proof that there were personal differences between tho two - or the three, rather - I succeeded in frocing both of them within four days from the Concentration Camp Oranienburg. The personnel of Radio OPTA was rather bothered by the arrest of these two people because both of them had a good name in that radio station, particularly Reader, because he started as a simple employee.\nQThank you, that is sufficient. Do you remember the case Schleich, and can you toll me something about it?\nASchleich had been sentenced to death.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1775, "page_number": "", "date": "03 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-03", "text": "Q.No, that isn't right, There is something else, too. I'm sorry. Would you tell me the case of the -- Obergofreiter who had boon sentenced to death because ho had used strong expressions concerning Hitler, and who had then been pardoned by Milch, or at least, whoso pardon had been proposed by Milch?\nAYes, that was towards the end of summer or early in autumn, 1943.\n1385a all air raid had taken place in Berlin and somebody was on leave from the regiment of Goering.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1776, "page_number": "1386", "date": "03 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-03", "text": "A man had lost his wife and his child. I don't remember. In any case, he had lost quite a few of his relatives. The next day, as they were all in an air raid shelter and the people there were being fed, he used very strong expressions concerning the Fuehrer, Hitler, that is, and also concerning the Luftwaffe and its lack of defensive power. In a field tribunal he was sentenced to death, because of subversive activities against the Wehrmacht. Milch in this case put in a good word for him, which Was then sent to Goering, and asked whether these people, who under psychological strain made such remarks, had to be given consideration to a certain extent. He said the sentence later on was reduced and, as far as I know, the man, after two or three months in jail, came back to his regiment. In any case, the death sentence was withdrawn on the basis of Milch's intervention.\nQWitness, is it correct that, since he did not have that first Z.B.V., that you gave Milch a man by the name of Schleich, as a legal adviser?\nYes. From October 1942 to January or February 1943 he stayed there, and then in February the Field Court went to General KastnerKirdorf, who at the same time had the office of pardoning. However, as there were too many judicial questions concerning civilians, the central division of jurisdiction, the Oberfeldrichter Schleich was given to Milch and was put at his disposal permanently, who spoke to me concerning Milch, and also concerning the cooperation between the two, during which time he used a term concerning Milch, the cooperation would be good. I am sorry, I shall use the term exactly as Schleich used it: \"Dogs that bark do not bite.\"\nQWitness, since we know the judicial powers of this department, could you answer my question: If Milch had any possibility, any legal possibility whatsoever, to sentence prisoners of war to death?", "speakers": [ "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1777, "page_number": "", "date": "03 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-03", "text": "AThe Luftwaffe had. nothing at all to do with prisoners of war. The whole prisoners of war question was under the army, so that a procedure of the Luftwaffe against prisoners of war was absolutely impossible. If prisoners of war - if anything happened with prisoners of war, then a report had to be sent to the respective army courts and the army courts then proceeded against.\n1386 A PW's. This was a very difficult procedure.", "speakers": [ "A" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1778, "page_number": "1387", "date": "03 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-03", "text": "The protective power had to be informed of it and then, with many copies, had to be sent to OKW, and various other organizations. In all these six years of the war I did not know of any case in which the Luftwaffe acted or proceeded against PW.'s. In any case I know for sure that none of the military courts which were under me ever carried out a procedure against prisoners of war.\nQWould the Wehrmacht have permitted such a proceeding?\nAWhat kind of a proceeding?\nQIf Mr. Milch himself would have passed a death sentence?\nAThis would have caused a storm in the justice. The Luftwaffe Justice, or justice, would no longer have permitted such a thing to happen, namely, that an officer, who could have used his power in judicial questions; that is absolutely impossible.\nQWitness, you tell us that this investigation followed that case. Did you find out how Udet died?\nAYes. Together with present Dr. Koel, Minister Director Dr. Ernst, I carried out a thorough investigation. All personal friends of Udet were examined. Udet, in July and August 1941, had been sick due to grippe, flu; and due to having drunk too much alcohol, and he was very weak, constitutionally, that is. When he recuperated after a long time, and slowly, the Rich Program had just been completed, concerning air armament and which put air armament in a new program Oasis. Udet, due to various facts, and due also to his disease, was very little informed of this program. He told this to Reich Marshal, whereupon the Reich Marshal noticed the lack of knowledge of Udet and also his poor physical condition. He understood that. There was a long discussion in the garden of Karin Hall, which ended in Udet's taking six weeks leave in order to go to Buehlerhoehe and to rehabilitate his health there. He did that; then he came back. However, he believed that he had lost Goering's confidence in him, and he said in the following weeks, about early in October or towards the middle of October, he mentioned repeatedly to his friend Mrs.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1779, "page_number": "", "date": "03 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-03", "text": "Bleile that he was thinking of suicide. Early in November, in the evening, he asked his Chief of Staff to come and 1387A see him - General Ploch and General Lucht, where he said that he had lost confidence, and he was very pessimistic on that evening.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1780, "page_number": "1388", "date": "03 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-03", "text": "A lot of cognac was drunk that evening and it Was one o'clock in the morning. All the gentlemen who had been at Udet's party came in his apartment on Heerstrasse, they came back, that is, toward 7:30 in the morning.\nMrs. Bleile, who, as far as I can remember, lived in Wannsee, received a phone call from Udet. He said he wanted to say goodbye to her. He was sick and tired of his life and he was going to end it. She should not try to change his mind for him. Mrs. Bleile told him that she would arrive immediately, she would go and see him immediately, where upon Udet told her, \"It's not worth while. You will not find me alive any more when you come.\" Thereupon he hung up the receiver. Mrs. Bleilo immediately telephoned a friend of hers and together with him she drove from Wannsee to Heerstrasse. The apartment was closed there. The butler there had been sent for various errands by Udet. after a few minutes, however, he returned. When they entered the apartment, they found Generaloberst Udet dead in his bed. He had committed suicide with a Colt pistol, by shooting himself in the right temple. The exit of the bullet was on the left hand part of the skull and went from the right, front part of the head to the left, upper part of the head. There was a letter in which Udet made final dispositions concerning his assets, particularly concerning his memoirs of the first world war, Which Koerner received, and a few other things.\nBR. BERGOLD:Thank you, witness. I have no further questions to the witness, Your Honors.", "speakers": [ "BR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1781, "page_number": "1389", "date": "03 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-03", "text": "CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. DENNEY:\nQ.Witness, were you in tho Luftwaffe?\nA.Yes, I was.\nQ.When did you enter?\nA.I entered the Luftwaffe on the first of April,1935.\nQ.And you stayed until the end of the War?\nA.Yes, I stayed there until the end of the War.\nQ.And were your duties always in the legal department of the Luftwaffe?\nA.No. I was never in tho legal department of tho Luftwaffe, but I was always a supervisory judge in various courts in Koenigsberg, the field court, Braunschweig, and after 1938 supervisory judge in the field court, Berlin, of the Luftwaffe. I stayed in Berlin until 1939. Then I was in France during the first campaign as supervisory judge with the First Land Corps. Then in Autumn, 1940, I returned from France, and from then on until the first of January, 1944, I was supervisory judge for the field courts of the Luftwaffe, for the Luftgau III and IV; that is Berlin and Dresden, the division courts and the flak: courts the courts of the War, school courts and tho Z.B.V. special courts also belonged to that.\nQ.Well, you always acted as a judge in a supervisory capacity, didn't you, that is, in the years 1939 to 1945 ?\nA.No. In a general supervisory capacity mainly in regard to administration end my main task was to be examiner so that during the whole War I passed very f aw sentences myself. I was prosecutor and my main task Was the administrative part among other tasks also the training of the reserve judges and the personnel administrative part for these people which at the time amounted to from one hundred to one hundred ten judges and five hundred people as personnel.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1782, "page_number": "", "date": "03 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-03", "text": "Q. What was your rank?\nA.My rank last was office with supreme authority Generalrickfer. I became general judge on the 24th of January 1945.\nQ.What were you before that?\nA.Before that I was Oberst judge from August, 1941, until my promotion 1389(a) to general judge.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1783, "page_number": "1390", "date": "03 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-03", "text": "Q.An Oberst judge is like a colonel , isn't it?\nA.Yes, indeed.\nQ.Now were you familiar with the Geneva Convention and the Hague Convention?\nA.Yes. They were familiar to me. We also had various teaching courses from 1937 to '38. Through the Division for International Law in the OKW and on the basis of those teaching courses, the Ten Commandments were written in the Soldier's Book of every soldier and brought to the attention of every soldier.\nQ.Do you know those Ton Commandments that appeared in the Soldier's Book?\nA.Yes, I do.\nQ.Will you tell what they were?\nA.Protection of private property, the enemy population must be outside of the War itself, the Ban on destruction of non-military buildings, furthermore, protection of the wounded and the prisoner of war, the enemy prisoner of war. These are the ten main commandments and also the protection of private property. These were the main points.\nQ.Those were in a little book that was carried by every soldier in the German Army please let me finish. These precepts which you hare just enumerated for us were sot forth in the first page of a little book known as a sold-buch, 4 soldier's book?\nA.Yes, the sold-buch; that's correct.\nQ.Which was carried by everyone in the German Armed Forces?\nA.Yes, indeed.\nQ.So you had that sold-buch, didn't you?\nA.Yes, indeed, I did.\nQ.Every soldier had that sold-buch?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1784, "page_number": "", "date": "03 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-03", "text": "A.Yes, every soldier did.\nQ.And the Field Marshal?\nA.That I do not know if the Field Marshal himself had such a sold 1390(a) buch.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1785, "page_number": "1391", "date": "03 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-03", "text": "In any case, even the General and up to the General, every soldier had a booklet like that.\nQ.Well, everybody didn't become a Field Marshal over night, did they?\nA.No. That's correct; everyone has to be in the other ranks too. Every soldier gets this sold-buch, which also contains a record of his pay. However, if he gets the sold-buch that I do not know, because I did not Have so many dealings with the Field Marshal myself.\nQ.Well, you know Milch pretty well, didn't you?\nA.No. I only had official dealings with him -- if I am to guess as to oho date -- fifteen to eighteen tines. That is all. I tried to remember the actual number of tines I met him. however, I think this was the number, And all these meetings were just short informational meetings which usually took from fifteen to twenty minutes and not over that.\nQ.In the investigation of Rudolf Udet's, did you talk to Milch?\nA.General Field Marshal Milch was Called as a witness and examined as such. He was examined and questioned as to questions of armament and also as to the program and of his ideas on that program. Furthermore, General Jeschonek, General Field Marshal von Richter and various other members and people were examined, and the opinion of the Generals was to be found out, how their attitude was toward the program. Everyone of them Was to give his opinion if he approved of it or if he disapproved of this program. In any case, everyone of them had. to make a brief free statement in order to get a true picture of the reason for the big slumps in production of Materials for the Luftwaffe.\nQ.Well, under Udet's leadership as Generalluftzeugmeister, the performance of the Luftwaffe so far as production was concerned of airplanes, motors and other things that had to do with keeping the Luftwaffe in the air had not been satisfactory.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1786, "page_number": "", "date": "03 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-03", "text": "A.No, this is a historical mistake to think that under the leadership of General Oberst Udet the Luftwaffe had reached his peak. The development of a plane, took three to four years -- that is, the body itself -- and the development and construction and testing, that took two to three years, the 1391 (a) engine, four years.", "speakers": [ "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1787, "page_number": "1392", "date": "03 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-03", "text": "All that which had been available in the Luftwaffe in 1939 and '40 had been planned and worked out by General Weber, who approximately crashed in 1936 -- '37, and after General Oberst had taken over his official position, a new planning or rather a progressive program had not taken place. And everything became stagnant, that is why the Luftwaffe failed completely from 1942 to '44 in stopping the attacks. however, after the end of Udet, the air armament had started a new development stage.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1788, "page_number": "1393", "date": "03 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-03", "text": "Q.In other words, it was after Udet died that the air armament went into a new phase of development and began to improve?\nA.Yes, indeed. They tried to build a stronger engine, and efforts were made for a new development of the engine between 1300 and 1200 PS; the total aggregate tried to reach that after they had tried to use the engine in one and DB 9; and also they tried to solve this problem by using both engines the DB 805 on a single crankshaft, that, is, in order to gain the necessary number ofPS forstronger engines. PS means horsepower. This attempt however, failed.\nQ.When you went up to; let's take this. How do you spell the name of this man who was the aluminum specialist, who was accused of misappropriating some funds which had been allocated for the purpose of machinery; whose case you investigated. How do you spell his name?\nA.Rautenbach.\nQ.You are sure his name is Rautenbach, and not Rautenberger?\nA.No, Rautenbach, yes, indeed.\nQ.You say that he did not steal 800,00 marks; he only stole about 200,00 is that right?\nA.It was not a real theft because it belonged to the factory and all the credits which had been given by the bank for the Luftwaffe had to be paid back any way. Ho actually just misappropriated this money, in so far as he received special money for building, which he usually would not have been able to get because they were under the war economy plea.\nQ.That was a comparatively minor matter; it didn't amount to much any way.\nA.Yes, indeed; it was rather minor offense; it was more of an action which should not have taken place in war, and according to regulations concerning war economy were punishable.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1789, "page_number": "1394", "date": "03 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-03", "text": "Q.And you are not aware that he has ever been tried, are you?\nA.No, there was no trial. He had just been arrested, but he was considered a free nan; and in the company of six others he was taken to Berlin and then on the same day he had a discussion with Milch and so far as I know he went back to Oranienburg on Saturday.\nQ.Well, the answer is \"no\", is that right?\nA.I don't quite understand, would you repeat the question?\nQ.The answer is \"no\", is that right?\nA.Do you want to know if he was put before a war court?\nQ.That is all I asked you.\nA.Then, in that case, the proceeding formally had been entered against him, and then this proceeding on the basis of Milch's order, as authority in this field, was said to be stopped until at the end of the war on a probationary basis.\nQ.You made an investigation and Milch said : \"Let's stop; this man is a good aluminum man, And it was stopped.\nA.Yes, it was the right of every supreme judge to interrupt the proceeding until the end of the war, if the guilty crime is not as important as to necessitate and immediate proceeding.\nQ.Now, another time you went up to Oranienburg, do you remember that in connection with these two gentlemen from Radie OPTA?\nA.No. I was not at Oranienburg myself, but only these two, Riedel and Moissner from Division 4 were picked up from there and brought to my Field court; at Steglitz Riedel and Moissner made strong remarks that his hair had been cut off in the concentration camp; they had to have their hair cut very short.\nQ.Who did you talk to when you got these people released from Oranienburg?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1790, "page_number": "1395", "date": "03 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-03", "text": "A.Concerning that matter, I spoke with a regierungsdirector, in Division 4. If I remember right.\nQ.Do you know who ran Oranienburg?\nA.No. I don't.\nQ.Do you know who was in charge of the concentration camps in Germany?\nA.It was known that the concentration camps were under the Gestapo.\nQ.Under the Gestapo; didn't the SS have anything to do with it?\nA.Concerning the SS, which was an absolutely different part of the Wehrmacht, or rather political part or the Wehrmacht, we know nothing, but we even did not know anything about the disposition and the organizational chart of this organization because the Wehrmacht went its own way and the other went its own way.\nQ.You didn't know the SS had anything to do with concentration camps, did you?\nA.Oh, yes, of course I did. Everybody knew that in Germany.\nQ.Everybody in Germany knew about that?\nA.If it was known to every one, I don't know, but one can really say that the larger part of the population knew that the concentration camps were under the supervision of the SS.\nQ.What did they use the concentration camps for?\nA.I only know that now from the daily press; In any case witnesses were shown to me who had been in the concentration camps and among them was a homosexual who had misled forty juveniles and had also relations of that sort to soldiers at Langwitz and had formed a real homosexual circle; and there were also incurable homosexuals in the concentration camp.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1791, "page_number": "1396", "date": "03 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-03", "text": "Q.You learned that from the German press during the war, did you?\nA.No, not from the press, not from the German press. Those were things which one always heard in my official capacity in our office.\nQ.Did you ever see any military court that tried Jews or Poles or Russians?\nA.No. Luftwaffe courts were not competent for those people. Soldiers were tried by the military courts; the Luftwaffe courts had no jurisdiction whatsoever over or with respect to civilians unless it was a punishable act of a member of the Luftwaffe in which civilians had been used as accomplices.\nQ.And so far as you knew, the Geneva Convention was always abides by the Wehrmacht and all of the subordinates?\nA.Well, I can only speak of my own sector. I knew that we as field courts were too exact even with respect to the Geneva and Hague conventions, and I am sure that this Tribunal knows that the Fuehrer pronounced his distrust toward the German courts. Somebody else mentioned the fact about the military tribunal at the beginning of the Russian campaign would be left at home in Germany.\nQ.Did you go along with that?\nA.Yes, until the end of the war.\nQ.Do you know that they branded Russian prisoners of war?\nA.No, we had nothing to do with prisoners of war, in the Luftwaffe, that is, with regard to Russian prisoners of war. Although I was in Russia for fifteen months, I did not see one single Russian prisoner of war because we were too far removed and we had nothing to do with these things.\nQ.You never heard of the Einsatz-Commandos over there?\nA.No, never.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1792, "page_number": "1397", "date": "03 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-03", "text": "Q.Are you familiar with the protest dated 15 September 1941 against the order of General Reinicke of 8 September 1941 which denies to the Soviet Russians treatment as prisoners of war?\nA.No, I do not know that order and I heard it from you for the first time in my life and it is absolutely new to me.\nQ.You never heard of it before?\nA.No, never.\nQ.Now, how long did Milch have this authority as a judge?\nA.He was not such a judge; he did not have full power of confirmation; the air fleet commander under Gen. Field Marshal Sperle, Colonel General Stumpf, General Kesselring, Dessler, General Flugbeil for the Northeast. Field Marshal Milch had the confirmation right to the extent of the regular division commander in his function as field judge.\nQ.And how long did he have this confirmation power?\nA.From October 1942 to January, possibly also February, 1943.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1793, "page_number": "1398", "date": "03 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-03", "text": "Q.And how do you spell the name of this man who was, in the end of Summer or early Autumn 1943, in a Luftschutzraum in Berlin and made some remarks about Hitler and the Luftwaffe?\nA.His name - well, to give you his name is absolutely impossible for me. As a judge and as a supervisory judge I had approximately 1200 cases a month.\nQ.The answer is \"you don't know how to spell his name,\" is that right?\nA.No, I cannot remember the man's name. All I know is that he was a soldier from the Flak and as far as I remember he was from Goering's regiment.\nQ.And he was sentenced to death and Milch spoke to Goering about him and they returned him to duty, is that right?\nA.Yes.\nQ.So far as you know, the only people that were ever tried by the Luftwaffe courts were Luftwaffe personnel, weren't they?\nA.Yes. Military personnel, soldiers and members of the staff and the armament industry that had something to do with the Luftwaffe, according to the laws which existed in the military jurisdiction of the Luftwaffe.\nQ.Did you know they had any prisoners of war working for the Luftwaffe?\nA.No, I didn't know; it's absolutely new to me.\nQ.You are hearing for the first time that the Luftwaffe employed prisoners of war?\nA.No, I heard that in 1945.\nQ.After the war was over?\nA.Yes, indeed, because we didn't have anything to do with the industry. We had a different task, namely, purely judicial tasks during examinations. I was present during questionings at Messerschmitt but I only spoke to the contractors, constructors, and parts procurers and I had nothing to do with the workers and I could not speak to them so I could not learn anything at all and I could not inquire and never had the thought to inquire.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1794, "page_number": "", "date": "03 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-03", "text": "Q.Do you speak Russian and Polish?\nA.No, neither Polish nor Russian. I can just speak a little bit of English, what I learned in school, that is, and a little bit of French and Spanish.\n1398-A", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1795, "page_number": "1399", "date": "03 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-03", "text": "Q.Did you ever go in the Messerschmitt plant at Regensburg?\nA.No, not in Regensburg. I only went to the main factories in Augsburg in the Summer of 1942 from 10 o'clock in the morning until 6 o'clock in the afternoon and then the same evening I went back to Berlin. This was the time of the examination concerning the crashing of various planes of the type Messerschmitt 210, which crashed as a result of construction faults.\nQ.Did you ever see any concentration camp inmates working in any of these airplane factories?\nA.No, I didn't.\nQ.Did you ever see any concentration camp inmates?\nA.Yes, indeed. I even invited a man for coffee who had been presented to me for an examination, who was in a concentration camp and who was somewhat sad about the fact that he found conditions in the military court in Berlin on Woertherstrasse worse than those prevailing at Buchenwald and asked to be sent back to Buchenwald as soon as possible. I had a very open talk with him and he was Amtsgerichtsrat and worked in Buchenwald in some sort of a capacity. He wrote to the commander of the BGB, which is known to everybody and which is a civil court in Germany, and he said that he expected to stay for a few more years because he wasn't careful enough and for him as a single man he didn't have to worry about anything at all. He told them that he wanted to be honest.\nQ.I am just going to ask you one more question and all you have to do is to give me a date. When was it that this gentleman wanted to go back to this haven of loveliness that you are talking about at Buchenwald? Just give me the date.\nA.That was in May or June 1943.\nDR. BERGOLD:I have two further questions, Your Honor.\nRE-DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. BERGOLD:\nQ.Witness, I shall come back to the case of Rautenbach. Is it correct that this case looked like a very bad case?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1796, "page_number": "", "date": "03 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-03", "text": "A.Yes, it looked so bad that even my best judge, which I knew at the ZBV Court as a very wise man and very energetic, was sent to Berninger-Rhode immediately. At that time this was an extraordinary measure.\n1399-A", "speakers": [ "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1797, "page_number": "1400", "date": "03 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-03", "text": "Q.Then the second question: You examined several concentration camp inmates as witnesses, did you? Did none of them complain about anything at all?\nA.If the man is still alive I do not know, but I had a very good friend who was a worker and who had spent four years in the concentration camp. His name was Leim. The man had been a Communist and after four years of concentration camp he had learned how to fix floors. That man unfortunately in 1942 was entangled into another political proceeding because of a comrade whom he had met in a concentration camp and he had sheltered in his house for a night, although he knew that the police were looking for him. He was again sentenced. He was sentenced to jail. However, he was pardoned, then he was a good soldier. The man repeatedly wrote to me and he assured me that all he could build up - he could only do that because he had learned a trade in the concentration camp so that he was able to make 110 marks a week as a floor fixer. He had a library and a collection of books in his home which was a real pleasure to look at. It was really fun to watch the man try to educate himself and how he brought up his ten year old son so that one could really say that he was living the life of a good citizen.\nQ.I only wanted to know: When you examined the many witnesses from the concentration camps, did anyone of them ever complain?\nA.No.\nQ.Well, will you continue?\nA.During the examinations I even told them that they were free to tell anything they wanted to the judge and that every statement which they made before the police could be repeated before the judges because all of the statements made before the judge were the ones that were binding and that they did not have to be afraid about the statements they would make. That was a principle which every judge had or held, namely, that he separated the two jurisdictions between police and judge.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1798, "page_number": "", "date": "03 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-03", "text": "Q.Thank you. Witness, before you mentioned the Luftwaffe jurisdiction with respect to air armament industry. Did that refer to foreigners as well or only as to Germans?\nA.Only as to Germans and only to the leading people in the industry. I 1400-A don't mean that the worker or laborer, if he had done something wrong was punished immediately by them, but the case was that if on purpose or without any purpose the procurers and directors and contractors, if the laws were violated there, that these people were put before an expert Luftwaffe Court and tried there.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1799, "page_number": "1401", "date": "03 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-03", "text": "Q.Witness, you testified before that you occupied yourself a lot with the Geneva Convention and that you knew it thoroughly?\nA.Yes, as far as I can remember we repeatedly mentioned questions of the Geneva Convention. That is also for the purpose of troop instruction.\nQ.Witness, were you yourself also treated according to the Geneva Convention?\nA.I do not wish to answer that question.\nDR. BERGOLD:I have no further questions to the witness.\nMR. DENNY:No further questions, your Honor.", "speakers": [ "MR. DENNY", "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1800, "page_number": "1402", "date": "03 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-03", "text": "THE PRESIDENT:I have one or two questions.\nBY THE PRESIDENT:\nQ.Did the courts that you supervised try workmen for loafing or for sabotage or disobedience?\nA.Please?\nQ.Did the Luftwaffe courts, in which you were a judge, try workmen for loafing, sabotage, or disobedience?\nA.No. Cases of disobedience could not be heard-committed by civilians because regulations of paragraph 92, concerning military disobedience, with military personnel, did not apply to civilian personnel. Subordinate workers, workmen, etc., were never tried by the Luftwaffe courts. This was an absolutely civilian matter. In these cases there was a special law, not only of the judicial authority, or the person with judicial authority but also the statement had to be made that these matters should be brought before the Luftwaffe Court. This was done when those things concerned air armament matters, which had to be kept secret, or when there were personalities involved which were of importance to air armament.\nQ.I still haven't the faintest idea of what the answer is. If a man working on a machine was careless, or loafed, did not turn out his work, or injured the machine, before what court was he taken?\nA.Those were civilian courts. There were definite civilian courts. In other words, let's take it that somebody sabotaged a machine; he puts some nails into a machine. The matter was not brought before a Luftwaffe Court. It didn't matter whether he worked with air armament or not; he was just brought before a competent civilian court, according to the severity of the case.\nQ.Then your court only tried officers or uniformed members of the Luftwaffe?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "BY THE PRESIDENT", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1801, "page_number": "", "date": "03 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-03", "text": "A.Yes, indeed.\nQ.You didn't try civilian workers?\nA.Not civilian workers, but if there was any trial against 1402 - a civilians, then only in cases when there was a definite order of the commander-in-chief of that particular armed group.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1802, "page_number": "1403", "date": "05 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-05", "text": "This occurred when they were prominent members of personalities of the air armament, namely, as I stated before directors, procurers, or instructors, and only people who were of importance. Otherwise, the Luftwaffe courts were not strong enough in order to try large numbers of people.\nQ.One more question. Did your friend ever send his ten year old son into a concentration camp to learn a trade?\nA.No, the father was the man who learned the trade in the concentration camp. He had a 10 year old son.\nQ.No. He was so pleased with having spent four years learning to be a floor-maker, I wondered if he had sent his son back to the concentration camp for that purpose.\nA.It is not pleasant for anybody to lose his freedom, and of course that man also suffered under that, his freedom had been stolen. That is the worst that can occur to any man, namely, that his freedom is stolen to which a man is born.\nQ.You don't mean, then, that he told you that he had enjoyed it?\nA.According to the circumstances, it is cum grano salis as the Latin phrase goes, it is very difficult to understand. There are pleasant things and there are unpleasant things, there are necessary things and unnecessary things. Well, he has been punished and this was a punishment which also offered him a possibility and a chance. He knew how to make a difference between pleasant and unpleasant things.\nQ.You mean he saw the bright side of it?\nA.Yes, he did, and he saw that he had not only lost something, but that he had learned a lot and that he was on a new road\nTHE PRESIDENT:The Marshal may remove this Witness.\n(Witness excused)\nAnd now, Dr. Bergold?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1803, "page_number": "1404", "date": "03 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-03", "text": "DR. BERGOLD:I have part of the document book number 3, but unfortunately it is not complete yet. I have to have it complete, because this document book deals with the incident of the two Russian prisoners of war who had been shot, and if I do not have all the documents, then the context cannot be understood clearly. I hope to be able to got it either today or early tomorrow morning. That is, the last part of the document.\nTHE PRESIDENT:How long has it been in translation?\nDR. BERGOLD:Over a week now.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Well, this is a very expensive delay.\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes indeed, Your Honor.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Unless the document book is very large, it seems to me that it should have been ready.\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes, Your Honor. That is all, Your Honor.\n(Indicating size of document book)\nTHE PRESIDENT:You have shown me a book of about a dozen pages?\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes, Your Honor, twelve pages.\nTHE PRESIDENT:That is ridiculous, that this Tribunal should be absolutely hamstrung for want of a translation of twelve pages. Now that is inexcusable, somewhere. How much of it do you now have?\nDR. BERGOLD:There is only supplement number one missing, which is one single page.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Well, I don't know whom to direct this order to, but that page had better be ready at 1:30. This is intolerable. Now, wherever this message carries to, someone ought to hear the fact that we are being delayed here for want of a translation of one page.\nThis Tribunal will recess until 1:30: everybody will be ready to go on with that book at that time.\nDR. BERGOLD:If I may make the following suggestion, perhaps I could give one page to the interpreters and they could translate it very fast.", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1804, "page_number": "1405", "date": "03 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-03", "text": "THE PRESIDENT:I don't care how you do it, doctor, I don't care how anybody does it, but it had better be done at 1:30. We will recess until that time.\nTHE MARSHAL:The Tribunal is in recess until 1330.\n(At 1140 hours, a recess was taken until 1330 hours)", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1805, "page_number": "1406", "date": "03 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-03", "text": "THE MARSHAL:Tribunal Number 2 is again in session.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The Tribunal has caused an investigation to be made about the Translation Division. In fairness to that Division, these facts ought to be on the record:\nDocument Book 2 for the Defense, consisting of about 50 pages, it was stated to us, had been given to the Translation Division ten days before it was needed in Court. The record shows it was given to the Translation Division on Friday afternoon and that it was ready to be used on the following Tuesday morning. That is not even ten days.\nSupplement Number 2 came to the Translation Division on February 26, in the afternoon, and was ready for use on February 28.\nSupplement Number 4 came to the Translation Division on February 27 and was ready for use on February 29. The same dates apply to Supplement Number 5.\nSupplement Number 3 came to the Translation Division on February 26, and with an intervening weekend, was ready for use on March 3. These dates apparently exculpate the Translation Division from any undue delay especially when regard is had for the fact when they are translating documents for other trials. Tribunal 1 and Tribunal 3 and even some documents for Case Number 4. Apparently no blame is to be attached to them for the delay. I presume part of the purported delay comes from the fact that all cf these documents have to go first to the Defense Information Center and then to the Document Room where they are translated and mimeographed; then back to the Translation Division where an English translation is prepared. That, again, goes to the document distribution center where the translation is mimeographed. Then the translations are distributed. It is a long way. The delay may occur anywhere in that journey. It is a complicated process made necessary by reason of the use of two languages and may be, at least in part, unavoidable.\nThe Court has thought proper to put these facts on the record to prevent any blame being attached where it should not be place.", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1806, "page_number": "", "date": "03 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-03", "text": "DR. BERGOLD:May it please the Tribunal, I would like to introduce now Document Book Number 3, I have given you copies which I received. I would like to introduce in evidence Exhibit Number 40. It is an affidavit, Kaethe Herbst, of 21 1406 a January 1947 with four enclosures.", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1807, "page_number": "1407", "date": "03 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-03", "text": "May it please Your Honors, before I start, I would like to inform you, concerning the two Russian officers, that it has been a difficult matter. To clarify that matter, we have very little new. However, this is the result of a great and complicated work. To clarify that, what so far was unknown, I would like to read this affidavit now.\nTHE PRESIDENT:What is the Exhibit Number?\nDR. BERGOLD:Exhibit Number 40, Your Honor. It is right in the index, Your Honor. It is page 1 of Document Book 3 of the Defense, Your Honor.", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1808, "page_number": "1408", "date": "03 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-03", "text": "\"I, Fraulein Kaethe Herbst, born 23 April 1924, in Nurnberg, Lieestrasse 23, have been informed that I render myself liable to punishment if I make a false statement in my affidavit. I declare under oath that my deposition is true and was made to be submitted as evidence to the Military Tribunal No. II in the Palace of Justice, Nurnberg, Germany.\n\"Firstly, I have been secretary of attorney Dr. Friedrich Bergold since the beginning of the trial in his capacity as defense counsel in the proceedings against Erhard Milch.\n\"Secondly, on 8 January 1947, Dr. Bergold addressed the following letter to the German News Agency (DENA):\n\"'As attorney of Herr Erhard Milch, I beg you to issue, if possible by broadcasting, the following request for information:\n\"'The attorney of the former Field Marshal Erhard Milch requests these persons who are in a position to give information on the following occurrence to communicate with Dr. Friedrich Bergold, attorney, Palace of Justice, Nurnberg:\n\"'Around the middle of February 1944, two prisoners of war are supposed to have tried to escape by aeroplane which they seized at some factory or airfield. Where did this incident take place and what is the fate of the two prisoners of war?'\n\"Thirdly, the representative of DENA informed Dr. Bergold in my presence that he had forwarded this letter to the head office of DENA at Bad Nauheim to be attended to there.\n\"Fourthly, a few days later Dr. Bergold received the following information in reply to the request as given under cipher 2, the originals of which are attached to this affidavit:\nA \"a) Letter of 10 January 1947 from Herr Erich Schmidtke, Kassel-Waldau, Alte Nuernbergerstrasse.\n\"b) Letter of 13 January 1947, from Herr Karl W. Gangolf, Ruesselheim on Main.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1809, "page_number": "1409", "date": "03 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-03", "text": "B \"a) Letter of 12 January 1947 from Herr Hans Winterstein, Frankfurt on Main, Leerbachstrasse 97.\n\"b) Letter without date from Herr Adolf Janko, Hachtel 63, (14a) District Mergentheim.\n\"5) I certify that to the best of my knowledge, no other information concerning the flight of prisoners of war with the help of an aeroplane have not reached attorney Dr. Bergold.\n\"Dr. Bergold subsequently made further inquiries based on the letters as under 4)b with regard to the incident at the Messerschmitt works in Regensburg-Obertraubling.\n\"(signed) Kaethe Herbst \"This is to certify the correctness of the above signature of Fraulein Kaethe Herbst, Nuernberg, Kleestrasse 23, made in the presence of attorney Dr. Friedrich Bergold.\n\"Nuernberg, 31 January 1947 \"(Signed) Dr. Bergold\" The attachment signed, 1st Letter, Erich Schmidtke, Kassel-Walday, Alte Nuernbergerstrasse on the 10th of January 1947:\n\"Dr. Friedrich Bergold, Attorney, Nuernberg, Palace of Justice.\n\"In answer to the enclosed press notification published in the Kasseler-Zeitung of January 10th, 1947, I can inform you that the incident in question occurred on the airfield of Prenzlau, Uckermark.\"\n\"Uckermark\" means UK.\n\"With regard to the fate of the prisoners, I regret not to be able to give you any information.\n\"I was myself commander of a labor detachment at that time. This incident, owing to its rather peculiar nature, was much discussed.\n\"In case it should be of interest to you, I would communicate with some of my former comrades and ask them for information.\n\"Yours truly \"(Signed) Erich Schmidtke \"(2nd letter) \"Karl W. Gangolf, Ruesselheim on Main, 13 January 1947.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1810, "page_number": "1410", "date": "03 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-03", "text": "\"Dr. Friedrich Bergold, Nuernberg, Palace of Justice.\n\"I read a notice in the Frankfurter Neuen Presse on 10 January 1947, in which you ask for information concerning the \"Escape of two prisoners of war by aeroplane\". About this I would like to give you the following information:\n\"In the year 1944 two foreign prisoners of war used an aeroplane on the airfield of Prenzlau-Uckermark to make good their escape. On this airfield the pilot school A 12 was stationed. I do not remember whether the flight took place in February or in Autumn, 1944. I still remember the following concerning the incident: the two prisoners of war were wearing the uniform of the German Luftwaffe, of the rank of master sergeant, and are said to have stayed at the air base for several days making themselves acquainted with many installations. It was remarked that they were wearing their hair rather long and that only one of the two entered into conversation. Nobody ever heard the other talk. The aeroplane used was a Bucker 181 which was rolled to the fuel station by a student pilot. Fueling completed, the one in the uniform of a master sergeant requested the student pilot to get out as he had to make a test flight. The two prisoners then boarded the plane and flew off. Nothing more was heard with regard to the fate of the two. This incident was discussed with great interest and we figured out at the time that with the quantity of fuel they had with them, they could only fly from Prenalau to Sweden.\n\"Perhaps this information is of value to you.\n\"Yours truly \"(Signed) Gangolf \"(3rd Letter) \"Hans Winterstein, Frankfurt on Main, 12 January 1947, Leerbachstrasse 97.\n\"Dr. Friedrich Bergold, Attorney, Nuernberg, Palace of Justice.\n\"Dear Dr. Bergold, \"In the \"Frankfurter Neue Presse\" I read today the article \"Who can give information?\"", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1811, "page_number": "1411", "date": "03 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-03", "text": "I think I am in the position to give you at least some information, namely:\n\"During the time from January to March, 1944, I was stationed as noncommissioned officer of a railway anti-aircraft unit for the protection of the Messerschmitte works at Regensburg-Obertraublingen directly on the outskirts of the airfield belonging to the works. There it happened in the middle of February, 1944, that without starting signal an Me 109 took off suddenly, and, unfortunately, somewhat too steeply, with the result that it dropped again and had to make a crash landing. It was found that two fugitive Russian prisoners of war with officer's rank were in the machine and still alive. Since the Me 109 is only a one man fighter, the other naturally had to hide in an uncomfortable position in the hull. Concerning the further fate of the two Russians after they were taken away, I regret not to be able to give any further details. Anyhow, it was said that they were kept imprisoned and were not allowed to work freely anymore. I myself talked, although it was forbidden, to some prisoners -- they were working on the landing field there -- who told me the same of their comrades. Moreover, these people gave one the impression of being quite satisfied. At the most of the working places these prisoners are left unguarded, which alone made the attempt to escape possible.\n\"I hope this information will be of service to you. If necessary, I would have to inquire from my war comrades who perhaps will know more about the above incident.\n\"I am glad to be of assistance to you.\n\"Yours truly \"(Signed) Hans Winterstein \"(4th Letter) \"Adolf Janko, Hachtal 63, (14a) District Mergentheim.\n\"Dr. Bergold, Attorney, Nuernberg.\n\"In answer to your inquiry I can give you the following information:", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1812, "page_number": "1412", "date": "03 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-03", "text": "\"The two prisoners of war were Russian officers who tried to escape with a new Me 109 ready for delivery from the air base Oberttaubling near Regensburg. They had a mishap when starting; the machine was totally wrecked while the two wore unhurt. They were shot a few days later on the target range of the air base by a Police Unit.\n\"(Signed) Janko Adolf\" After I found out those things, namely, that the incident which was taken from the records of the 16th of February of the Central Planning Board and which had been mentioned by Milch, could only have been the incident in Obertraubling because the other incident, the one in Prenzlau, at the air-field, Prenzlau, could not have been considered.\nIt couldn't have been that one because the Russian prisoners escaped with the plane, and they escaped to Sweden.\nTHE PRESIDENT:It doesn't say that they escaped to Sweden.\nDR BERGOLD:Well, they were never seen again.\nTHE PRESIDENT:All right, It merely says that they had enough gasoline to have gotten -\nDR BERGOLD:Yes, indeed -\nTHEPRESIDENT: -- to Sweden.\nDR.BERGOLD: -- Your Honor. This could only have been the incident of Obertraubling because the two Russian prisoners before the two there were officers which then were shot.\nMR. DENNEY:I assume, too, Your Honor, that the plane was not known to be going to Sweden, and that they could have gone just as far in any other direction as they could have gone if they were going to Sweden.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Well, Sweden is just used as a measure of distance.\nMR DENNEY:Yes.\nDR BERGOLD:Do not forget that Milch declared that the two prisoners of war, the Russian prisoners of war, had attempted to escape and that the plane had immediately crashed. That is exactly what it says in the records.", "speakers": [ "DR.", "THE", "THE PRESIDENT", "DR BERGOLD", "MR. DENNEY", "MR DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1813, "page_number": "1413", "date": "03 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-03", "text": "of the 16th of February. That particular plane from Prenzlau did not crash, at least not in Prenzlau, whereas in the record of the 16th of February it says that they immediately crashed.\nTHE PRESIDENT:I think we understand your point.\nDR. BERGOLD:I would like to submit now the next exhibit number 41, an affidavit of Hubert Klein of 28 January 1947 which is on page 6, Your Honors. It reads as fellows:\n\"I, Hubert Klein, born 11 January 1890 in Duesseldorf, temporary address Internment Camp, Regensburg, have been informed that I render myself liable to punishment if I make a false statement in my affidavit. I declare on oath that my deposition is true and was made to be submitted as evidence to the Military Tribunal No. II in the Palace of Justice, Nuernberg, Germany.\n\"In 1944 I was an employee of the firm Messerschmitt. In the middle of February 1944 two Russian officers tried to escape with a Me 109 which was ready for delivery. When starting, the machine rolled over and was totally wrecked. The exact date I do not know. As far as I remember, the fugitives were handed over to the Stapo (State Police) by the camp guard. According to information from Stalag officers\" -- Stalag is prisoner of war camp -- \"(Stalag Main Camp for PW's) an order existed already that the flight of officers from prisoner-of-war camps must be reported to the Fuehrer. This report was undoubtedly made. About two to three days later the fugitives were shot by the Police in Obertraublingen. They were brought back from Regensburg to Obertraubling to be shot there. I believe that the order to shoot them was given by the Fuehrer. It was generally assumed at the time from the behavior of the Russian officers that it was an act of sabotage.\n\"(Signed) Hubert Klein \"This is to certify the correctness of the above signature of Herr Hubert Klein, Regensburg, internment and labor camp, made in the presence of the chief of the camp and of Dr. Warner Milch.\nInternment and labor Camp Regensburg, 28 January 1947. \"(Signed) Chief of the Camp\" and furthermore:\n\"Dr. Werner Milch, Internment and Labor Camp, Regensburg.\"", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1814, "page_number": "1414", "date": "03 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-03", "text": "The following affidavit is No. 42, and affidavit of Fritz Hans Adolf Popp, of 15 February 1947. It reads as follows:\n\"I, Fritz Hans Adolf Popp, born in Nurnberg, on 30 June 1882, at present in a special camp Dachau, cage 2, have been informed that I am liable to punishment if I make a false statement under oath. I declare on oath that my statement is true and that it was made for the purpose of being submitted as evidence before Military Tribunal No. 2 at the Palace of Justice in Nurnberg, Germany.\n\"From April 1939 I was the head of the police directorate Regensburg and since 1944 the head of the secret Police H.Q. in Regensburg.\n\"About February 1944 2 Russian officers employed by the firm Messerschmitt Obertraubling, attempted to escape in an Me 109. Shortly after taking off the plane crashed. Both passengers were still alive.\n\"According to the existing regulations the escape had to be reported to the Reich Main Security Office and to the Reich Defense Commissioner. At this time the escape of officers had in addition probably to be reported through the OKW.\n\"The handling of this case was not in my hands. Therefore I can no longer state the correct date. I only recall that the order for the execution by shooting was given by the Fueher.\n\"From my knowledge of the channels of command and rank I consider it impossible that the order for the execution by shooting was given by an officer of the Luftwaffe. Neither my department nor the prisoner of war camps (Stalags) were subordinated to the Luftwaffe. Signed: Fritz Popp.\n\"Herewith we certify and testify to the correctness of the above signature of Fritz Hans Adolf Popp at present in the special camp in Dachau, made by the undersigned.\nDachau, 15 February 1947 Signed:\nDr Werner Milch Assistant defense counsel at the Military Tribunal No. II Signed:\nDr Joseph Weisgerber Defense counsel at the Military Tribunal No. 1 Exhibit No. 43, an affidavit of Adolf Berthelmess of the 28th of January 1947, on page 8 of your Honors' book.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1815, "page_number": "1415", "date": "03 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-03", "text": "It reads as follows:\n\"I, Adolf Barthelmess, born in Nurnberg on 24 October 1894, address Nurnberg, have been informed that I am liable to punishment if I make a false statement under oath. I declare on oath that my statement is true and that it was made for the purpose of being submitted as evidence before the Military Tribunal No. 2 at the Palace of Justice in Nurnberg, Germany.\n\"From January 1941 until the end of the war I was active as officer and expert to the commander of the prisoners of war within the Army Corps Area XIII. From my knowledge acquired there I can give the following testimony:\n1.) Without having worked on the case myself, I remember the escape in a place from the plant airfield of the firm Messerschmitt attempted by 2 Russian officers very well, because this case was discussed in detail in the office on account of the peculiarity of its execution and the manner in which it was carried out.\n2.) According to my memory in spring 1944 - with a proviso- it may have been in the middle of the month February, the company chief of the home guard company (Landesschuetzen Kompanie) reported to the commander of the prisoners of war, by phone, as it was ordered, that on the day of the phone call 2 Russian officers had attempted to escape from a working detail at the Messerschmitt plants in a plane of the ME 109 type which was ready to take off. The plane had rolled a couple of hundred meters, could not take off and was then stopped by a ridge, turned over and both prisoners of war had been thrown out, one had been injured slightly, the other more severely. The prisoners of war had been picked up and were in the hands of the police. The escape was made possible by the carelessness cf auxiliary guards and the plant policemen.\n\"This report was probably received by the commander of the prisoners of war a few hours after the incident had taken place.\n3.) As ordered, the report was handed on to the OKW Chief of prisoners of war in the usual manner by teletype, as this had to be done by teletype in all cases of escapes of officers who were prisoners of war in order to be submitted to the Fuehrer; this was ordered by the OKW chief for the prisoners of war.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1816, "page_number": "1416", "date": "03 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-03", "text": "4.) The prisoners of war were in the hands of the police, as according to an order given in 1942, Russian prisoners of wan recaptured after an attempt to escape remained with the police for interrogation, and the police alone was competent to decide whether perhaps the prisoners had to be handed back to the Wehrmacht.\n5.) Even before the OKW had received the teletype, a phone call came through from there and a report was requested to be submitted to the Fuehrer as quickly as possible. Therefore the Fuehrer's Headquarters or Hitler himself learned about the attempt to escape from another source already prior to the teletype, because the latter already requested information from the OKW. Therefore it was reported either through party channels, through Gau leadership-Reich leadership (Bormann), or through the police channel, through Secret State Police Reich Main Security Office. The fact that Gauleiter Waschtler in his capacity as Reich Defense Commissioner required information about the case very early by phone, suggests the first way. A written report was requested as quickly as possible through the official channel and was submitted to the OKW.\nI would like to make a remark here that the affidavit by Fritz Popp already testified to the fact that such an escape, the report of an escape, had to go through the Reich Main Security Office and to the Reich Defense Commissioner and escape of officers reported through the OKW: and that in this affidavit the fact that Gauleiter Waschtler of the Defense Commissioner required such information.\nI shall continue:\n6.) A few days later the commander for the prisoners of war was informed by the competent camp commander that the police intended to shoot both prisoners of war in public. The commander, Major General Anger made his protest against that by phone to the OKW, chief of prisoners of war, and received either immediately or through a phone call from there the reply that Hitler was very much interested in this case and had himself decided and had given the respective order.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1817, "page_number": "", "date": "03 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-03", "text": "Furthermore the incident was the affair of the police in the hands of whom the prisoners of war were and which also had to carry out the order.\n1416-a \"7.) My answer to the question, whether in my opinion an office of the Luftwaffe could have given the order for the shooting of the prisoners of war, is in the negative.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1818, "page_number": "1417", "date": "03 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-03", "text": "It is based on my knowledge of the usual channels of command, because I consider it unlikely that the police or Secret State Police would have complied with an order given by a department to which they were not subordinate, neither our office, nor the Stalags, nor the Police were subordinated to the Luftwaffe. Signed: Adolf Barthelmess.\n\"The above signature, made by Adolf Barthelmess, address Nurnberg, Theatergasse 13, before the attorney at law Dr. Freidrich Bergold is herewith certified as being correct. Nurnberg, 28 January 1947. Signature. Friedrich Bergold.\"\nBefore I introduce Exhibit No. 44 I would like to submit this addition to Exhibit No. 36. This is an addition which I have here in order to show the logical connection. This is an affidavit of Kurt Linde. I should like to read it now:\n\"I, Kurt Linde, born 25 October 1395 at Gellnow, Pommeramia, formerly major general, now in the hospital for PW's, Garmisch, have been told that it is an offense to make wrong statements on oath. I hereby declare on oath that my statement corresponds to the truth and has been made in order to be offered to Military Tribunal in Nurnberg as evidence.\nSince 1 February 1944 I was deputy chief of the Allgemeine Wehrmachtsamt in the OKW. The chief of the department for PWs was part of that office.\n\"When I took over my office mass escapes were an almost daily occurrence. Nevertheless I still recall the peculiar circumstances of the escape in an aircraft, of Russian officers early in 1914. This unique incident has particularly stuck in my memory. I also seem to recall that the aircraft crashed, shortly after taking off.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1819, "page_number": "1418", "date": "03 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-03", "text": "This was reported to the Fuehrer probably both via Bormann as Reich Defense Commissioner as well as through our channels to the Head of OKW. I think it out of the question that the ten Field Marshal Milch was instrumental in obtaining the Fuehrer order to have the Russians shot. Of course, I think there can be no doubt that the Reich Minister of Aviation and C-in-C of the Luftwaffe was informed of the incident, i.e., of the loss of the aircraft, but I know nothing of an intervention on the part of the Luftwaffe, or of Field Marshal Milch in particular. I think Milch's playing any part in the treatments of the recaptured prisoners would have been impossible as this would have amounted to his interferring in matters outside his command, against which the competent authorities would have protested, and I would certainly remember if so unusual an action had taken place. Signed: Kurt Linde, Major General.\n\"The above signature of Kurt Linde, at present PWs hospital Garmisch, was given in the presence of Dr. Werner Milch and is hereby certified by me. Garmisch, 23 February 1947, Signed: Dr. Werner Milch.\"\nExhibit No. 44 is an affidavit of Fritz Prell, of 4 February 1947. It reads as follows:", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1820, "page_number": "1419", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "S March-DJG-A-16-1-Kupperstein (Int. Simha) \"I, Fritz Prell, secretary of the criminal police at the search department in Regensburg, residing in Regensburg, Waldmuenschenerstr.\n94, have been informed that I am liable to punishment if I make a false statement. I declare on oath that my statement is true and that it was made for the purpose of being submitted as evidence before the military Tribunal No. 2 at the Palace of Justice in Nuremberg, German.\n\"The shooting of 2 Russians in Obertraubling took place on a Saturday afternoon, I am sure that it was a Saturday afternoon, because I was on duty at the police directorate on the afternoon concerned.\n\"The shooting took place about 14 days before the 2 major airraids on the plant Obertraubling of the firm Messerschmitt. These raids were on 22 and 25 February 1941. Therefore the shooting probably took place on 12 February 1944, because this day was a Saturday.\" \"Regensburg, 4 February 1947.\" \"Signature: Fritz Prell.\"\n\"Document R. No. 210.\"\n\"I certify to the correctness of the above signature of the secretary of the criminal police in Regensburg, Horr Fritz Prell, alte Waldmuenchenerstr, 94, who identified himself by his identification card issued on 15 September 1946 B 00099.\" \"Regensburg 4 February 1947, Dr. Luther.\" \"(Stamp) Dr. Heinz Luther, Notary in Regensburg.\" Then came the expenses. That is what I have to show in connection with those two officers. I shall give my deduction later on.\nAs the last affidavit today, I would like to submit Exhibit No 45, an affidavit of Dr. Falter von Mueller, the 1st of February, 1947:\n\"I, Walter von Mueller, born in Berlin - Wilmersdorf on 13 October 1900 residing in Bennigsen am Diester, near Hannover, was at first informed that I am liable to punishment if I make a false statement.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1821, "page_number": "", "date": "03 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-03", "text": "I declare on oath that my statement is true and that it was made for the purpose of being submitted as evidence before the Military Tribunal No. II at the Palace of Justice in Nuremberg, Germany.\n\"1. In May 1933 I became acquainted with Milch through my activity as colleague of the commissioner for special duty Bolle in the Reich Comm 1419-a issary for aviation, Berlin where I had been transferred from the German transport pilot school.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1822, "page_number": "1420", "date": "05 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-05", "text": "I had to deal with a great number of denunciations of leading personalities of German aviation. Milch had already assigned several of these persons to serve in the Reich Commissary for aviation and later the Reich Ministry for aviation, some of them in leading positions. They were experts, mostly nonnational socialists, who, as it could be seen from the denunciation received expressed more or less openly their opposition to Hitler and his program. The incorporation of the Luftwaffe into the Wehrmacht, regarded as necessary by me as a non-national socialist, as well as an extensive exclusion of Party influence on German aviation succeeded, before the Party could take any effective counter-action from Munich.\n\"This development was only possible with the approval and assistance of Milch who then and later protected numerous men of Gorman aviation, partly without their knowing it.\n\"When the commissioner for special duty Bolle, who was continually in contact with the Munich Party Offices, got to know, what kind of \"colleague\" he had been assigned when he got me, I was immediately discharged. Confidentially informed about the dangerousness of my situation, I informed Milch about the most important facts of my activity with Bolle. Whilst most of my friends, on whom, as I had believed, I could rely, deserted me, it was Milch who immediately supported me and caused commissioner for special duty Bolle to be relieved.\n\"I myself received an order not to speak about the incidents which had then occured in the Reich Commisary for aviation, became an officer of the reserve in tie Luftwaffe and started to work for the German air transport company to which I belonged until the collapse in spring 1945.\n\"The rejection of the invasion of national socialistic tendencies into the German air transport company which I succeeded obtaining with the support of the Directors especially of director von Gablenz, again met with Milch's full approval, even though he admitted that only confidentially.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1823, "page_number": "", "date": "03 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-03", "text": "1420-a \"2.) I remember very well an affair in dispute in 1942, about the presentation of the pilots badge to a higher SS leader (I believe it was Heydrick) which at first was refused by the Chief of the personnel office of the Luftwaffe, and later on had to be presented on account of the pressure applied by Himmler, where I was sent with a letter of the personnel office to the Prinz Albrechtstr.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1824, "page_number": "1421", "date": "03 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-03", "text": "During the time I waited for the reply I was approached by an SS-Leader whom I did not know, he pointed to the window at the building of the Reich Ministry for aviation and said: \"We are going to clean out,this reactionary hole over there too, and that radically, already today we knew that sabotage is being committed and when we start to rub the guilty out we will start at the top.\" When General von Gablenz during a conference later on talked to me about Hitler and called him only \"the madman\" I reported him the incident with the SS leader and warned him urgently not to make careless statements. On this occasion I also asked him to warn Milch, and I suppose that he did so. I discussed this with him, because earlier Gablenz had told me about the bitter anger of Milch and his strong criticism of Hitler.\n\"The answer which I received from Gablenz incidentally, was a moving one. It was more or less the following, \"Let them get me and put me against the wall. That would still be the most honorable end. Suicide would be cowardly and to go over to the enemy is an impossibility for a German officer. Therefore, what remains?\"\n\"3.) With regard to the statement that the German air transport company was the core of the later established Luftwaffe, I can only say from my own knowledge that the men of the German air transport company, mostly the older generation, were, even in 1939, the most unmilitary thing one could imagine. During the maneuvers, in which we as reservists had to participate every year, we were the horror of all commanders and N.C.O.'s. We were export fliers, that is true, but our drill and shooting was very bad. The core of the Luftwaffe was developed in other places and separated itself immediately after its establishment from the German air transport company which was much too civilian for military taste.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1825, "page_number": "", "date": "03 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-03", "text": "1421 a \"4.) From the first to the last day of the Third Reich I refused successfully to become a party member neither was this recommended to me by the defendant at any time.\"", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1826, "page_number": "1422", "date": "03 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-03", "text": "\"Signature: Dr. Walter von Mueller.\"\n\"The above signature made by Dr. Walter von Mueller, residing in Benigsen am Deister, before pastor B. Berg is herewith certified as being correct.\"\n\"(Stamp) Bennigsen, 1 February 1947, Lutheran-Protestant Vicarage, near Hannover.\" \"Signature: B. Berg.\" (Stamp) Luther-Protestant Parish, Saint Martin at Bennigsen.\"\nThat is what I wanted to submit to you today, Your Honors.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Does this finish the presentation of documents by the defense?\nDR. BERGOLD:There could be some more; they're on their way now. One of these is on its way, that is, and I hope to be able to get them in either today or tomorrow. There are just a few of them. It would take, perhaps, several minutes to read them.\nTHE PRESIDENT:At any rate, this is all that is ready right now?\nDR. BERGOLD:That's right, Your Honor. There is only the witness, General Verwald, missing. He's the only one that is missing, Your Honor.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Well, the Tribunal is informed that he is on his way to Nurnberg from the plane where he was in the British Zone, and possibly will arrive tonight, and if not, tomorrow. Meanwhile, Judge Musmanno would like to make an inquiry of Mr. Denney as to certain facts concerning prisoners of war in the United States.\nDR. BERGOLD:May it please your Honors, one second please. I have not received yet, the following: The record concerning the second examination of Speer, and von Roedor, of Neurath, and then of course, there's still the examination of Admiral Raeder, which is still missing, which Mr. Denney promised me. We only want to submit it for the record.\nMR. DENNEY:So far as Neurath and Speer are concerned, Your Honor, I am in the same position that Dr. Bergold is; I haven't seen them either.", "speakers": [ "MR. DENNEY", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1827, "page_number": "1423", "date": "03 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-03", "text": "JUDGE MUSMANNO:I thought they had been submitted to you. I'll contact Dr. Foster and see that you get them this afternoon.\nMR. DENNEY:So far as the one of Admiral Raeder is concerned, if Your Honors recall, there was some question about that; and Dr. Bergold and I were able to work out a satisfactory arrangement, based on some English notes which we had from the first interrogation of Admiral Raeder. He has examined them; and approved them in German, into which I had them translated. We have had them stenciled and I have a sufficient number of English and German copies to deliver them to Dr. Bergold this afternoon, and also to deliver copies to the Court.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Well, as soon as the transcript of the Neurath and Speer examination is available, we will have them placed in the record as a part of the official transcript, and properly paged.\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes, Your Honor.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:Mr. Denney, Dr. Bergold has introduced in evidence, an excerpt from General Marshall's masterful and brilliant report on the conduct of the war, from July 1, 1943 to June 30, 1945, which refers particularly to the use of prisoners of war in the United States. The Tribunal will, of course, take judicial notice of the report and its authenticity in every respect. Also, the fact, as the report states, that the prisoners were treated in accordance with the Geneva Prisoners of War Convention, ratified by the United States on January 16, 1932. For purposes of further elucidation, in view of the fact that the use of prisoners of war has become an issue in this case,we would like, if you can, to submit such data as you can on the manner in which the labors and energies of prisoners of war in the United States were utilized.", "speakers": [ "THE PRESIDENT", "DR. BERGOLD", "MR. DENNEY", "JUDGE MUSMANNO" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1828, "page_number": "1424", "date": "03 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-03", "text": "MR. DENNEY:I might say, Your Honor, that from my own experience in the war, first as a -- well, it probably best dates from the time I was transferred to the Department of the Judge advocate General from the Signal Corps, and I attended a school at the University of Michigan which was conducted for all Judge Advocate General officers. At that time part of the course -- a subject course which lasted, I believe, an hour a day for a month -- was specifically concerned with matters of this kind, the rules of land warfare. And of necessity, at that time, they took up in detail the Geneva and Hague Conventions.\nI am familiar with the directives that came from the Office of the Secretary of War during the time in which we had prisoners in the United States, and those directives stated that the prisoners should not be used in any tasks that had to do with the war economy. On the installations at which I was stationed, I know that their duties consisted in shoveling snow, doing KP, working as waiters in mess halls. In many instances they were sent to work on farms, in some cases under contract labor, in which case the prisoners were paid the 80 cents a day which is provided for by the convention. There was an additional payment made to the Government, which had to do with attempting not to undersell the local labor market too much. The additional amount which was paid was considered by the Government as compensation for the people that they had taking care of these people. This money was also used, in part, to furnish things for the prisoners at their camps.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:Was it in that manner that the sum referred to in this excerpt, $35,196,000 -- if that is correct -- was accumulated?\nMR. DENNEY:I believe in that manner, and also in salaries saved, which would have had to be paid had civilians been used to perform the tasks which these prisoners of war did. I imagine, in addition, in that figure there is also included the work which was performed by the so-called Italian Service Battalions.\nIf Your Honors recall, shortly after the surrender in North Africa, in 1943; May, there were a great number of Italian prisoners which came to America.", "speakers": [ "MR. DENNEY", "JUDGE MUSMANNO" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1829, "page_number": "1425", "date": "03 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-03", "text": "Following the armistice with the Bogdolia Government, some time in August or September of 1943, the Italian prisoners who were then in America in substantial numbers were given an opportunity to volunteer for service in so-called service battalions. They, of course, could not, under the terms of the Geneva Convention, be made to re-enter conflict against their former allies, Germany or Japan; however, they could perform work which they did do. They were the same uniform that our soldiers did, with the exception of the fact that the buttons with the crest were taken off. They wore no insignia of branch; they wore no piping on their hats; and they wore no \"US\" on the right collar. On their sleeve they wore a green brassard with the word \"Italy\" in white letters. There were substantial numbers of those battalions in the States, and I would think that that would be included in that report as well.\nTHE PRESIDENT:What type of work did these battalions do?\nMR. DENNEY:So far as I know, Your Honor, they did the same sort of work that the other prisoners did. I mm not well informed as to their activities.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Does that include such activities as road building, road clearing?\nMR. DENNEY:About that, Your Honor, I can't say. The one place where I was where they had one of these units was at the University of Michigan, and they lived in the log quadrangle there, on the top floors. They performed work in the kitchen as cooks and KP's and things of that kind.\nTHE PRESIDENT:You mean they were given quarters in the same building where students are quartered normally in peace times?\nMR. DENNEY:Yes, Your Honor.\nTHE PRESIDENT:I speak from experience, that those are not bad quarters.\nMR. DENNEY:I was never allowed to live in them, Your Honor.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:Were prisoners ever used at any time in connection with the manufacture of munitions or military installations?", "speakers": [ "MR. DENNEY", "THE PRESIDENT", "JUDGE MUSMANNO" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1830, "page_number": "1426", "date": "02 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-02", "text": "MR. DENNEY:No, Your Honor. The only place, as I say, where - it sneaks there of employing then on posts, camps, and stations. Those were in places where they had substantial garrisons of troops and where their duties were what are called in the Amy \"housekeeping duties\".\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:In the construction of military installations, wefe they used at any tine, anywhere?\nMR. DENNEY:I know of no such case, Your Honor. I do know of one installation where they had some 350 men of the Africa Corps, and their task was primarily cleaning out trees and leveling off hillsides, and so on for the purpose of some development of the country at a later time for recreation purposes.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:Do you know whether at any time, anywhere, in any way, prisoners of war in the United States were used in activities comparable to those which had been testified to here in this trial, that prisoners of war held by Germany were put to?\nMR. DENNEY:No, Your Honor. Specifically, with reference to working in ack ack batteries, the question of what work they did completely aside, I know of no such instance.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:Oh well, of course, it is quite obvious a fact, which the Tribunal certainly takes judicial notice of, that they were never used in any way like that.\nMR. DENNEY:And particularly with reference, too, to armament factories, to any plants where they were constructing materiel or munitions of any kind or manufacturing the same, to be so used.\nTHE PRESIDENT:It is also true, is it not, Mr. Denney, that any carson who was not a citizen of the United States was not even remitted within the confines of factories or manufacturing plants engaged in war work?\nMR. DENNEY:Yes, Your Honor. There was the same sort of clearance which you would have to have for G-2 in the Army or the Bureau of Naval Intelligence in the Navy. You had to have what amounted to a card from the Adjutant General's Office, and you had a badge and a picture on it, or you couldn't even get near it.", "speakers": [ "THE PRESIDENT", "MR. DENNEY", "JUDGE MUSMANNO" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1831, "page_number": "1427", "date": "02 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-02", "text": "THE PRESIDENT:And citizenship in the United States was a prerequisite to such credentials?\nMR. DENNEY:Yes, Your Honor.\nJUDGE PHILLIPS:We are all familiar with what the prisoners of war in the United States did during the war but we can't take that as a part of the record here. Couldn't we get an affidavit from the War Department immediately sent here for this record, showing exactly what prisoners of war were required to do in the United States during the war? That would then eliminate all of this and be a matter which is part of the record.\nMR. DENNEY:I shall be very glad to include that in this week's teletype to the War Department, Your Honor.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Perhaps there is a high-ranking American officer in Germany who could furnish that without it having to come from Washington.\nMR. DENNEY:Well, we can perhaps get it from Washington. If we can't, perhaps we can get it from the Office of the Chief of Military Government, or some comparable high-ranking officer here who has knowledge of the facts.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Very well.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:I think this Tribunal is authorized by the Control Council and by the Ordinance to take judicial notice of established facts. These facts which we have inquired into certainly are public knowledge. I only asked you to sum up, from your own experience, what you knew only to highlight these facts, and I doubt that it is necessary to have any affidavit or any sworn testimony to what is so obviously a fact. However, any testimony which can be submitted for elucidation certainly would be in order.\nMR. DENNEY:It might also interest Your Honors to know that the rate of exchange for the mark, for purposes of paying these prisoners of war, was fixed at, I believe, approximately 30 cents.\nTHE PRESIDENT:We were about to call a witness on that question, Mr. Denney. Thank you. On behalf of the Tribunal, and under the provisions of the Ordinance, the Tribunal will ask Mr. Walter Lichtenstein to be sworn.", "speakers": [ "JUDGE PHILLIPS", "MR. DENNEY", "THE PRESIDENT", "JUDGE MUSMANNO" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1832, "page_number": "1428", "date": "03 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-03", "text": "ALTERLICHTENSTEIN, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:\nEXAMINATION BY THE PRESIDENT:\nQWill you raise your right hand and solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before this Tribunal will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?\nAI so swear.\nTHE PRESIDENT:You may be seated.\nQMr. Lichtenstein, the Tribunal is interested in knowing and having on the record the plan by which German prisoners of war were paid for any work performed by them as prisoners of war. Will you state whether or not you knew these facts, and if so, how it is that you come to know?\nAI think I am familiar with the facts. I was, until the 5th of February, Chief of the Financial Institutions Branch of the Finance Division in Berlin, which had charge of the negotiations relating to the payment of the former or resent prisoners of war. I, therefore, in that capacity, saw most of the cables, probably all - I am not certain of that - that passed between OMGUS and Washington in reference to that question.", "speakers": [ "ALTER", "A", "THE PRESIDENT", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1833, "page_number": "1429", "date": "03 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-03", "text": "As Your Honors are aware, the payment of prisoners of war, if I am not mistaken, was 80¢ per day. Certificates were issued to the prisoners for the work they did at that rate per day. There were two types of certificates issued, the certificate of payment, and then there was also -- it was called a certificate of credit. The distinction between the two is the following; the certificates of payment were issued by offices of the United States Army who were duly authorized to issue documents authorizing direct payment to prisoners of war. The certificates of credit were given to prisoners who were working or living in places whore there were no such offices of the United States Army authorized to issue actual certificates of payment. These certificates of credit had to be investigated and examined later on. The prisoners of war, when they came back to Germany, had these certificates of payment, or in a few cases, certificates of credit. There were quite long negotiations. The Geneva Convention fixes somewhat hazily that the rate of exchange that should be paid should be the official rate at the time of the breaking out of war between the two countries in question. The difficulty of fixing that rate in the case of Germany was that there were varying rates of exchange. I am not able to state definitely how many different types of marks there actually were, but there were a great number. There were the ordinary casual marks which were very little used, which officially had a rate of exchange of 40¢ per mark. There was a mark that was used for exchange purposes, which ran into about 20¢ as I recall. There was a tourist mark which was rated at 25¢. So it was extremely difficult to say what, exactly, was the official rate. As Your Honors are also aware, for purposes purely of our own forces, we exchanged marks at 10¢ -- that is, ten marks to the dollar. That, however, was by no means an international exchange, and it was always insisted on that that was not to be regarded at all as anything more than arrangement for the sake of our forces, merely for internal purposes and not for purposes of international exchange whatsoever.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1834, "page_number": "1430", "date": "03 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-03", "text": "The result was that the negotiation went on between the finance division at OMGUS and the War Department and the Treasury and State Departments in Washington as to what rate of exchange should be fixed, and at first there was general disagreement. I suppose I need not go into the details of those negotiations. The ultimate settlement was a 33-1/3¢ a mark, and we began paying these certificates of payment on the 13th of January through the newly established Laenderzentralbanken in our zone, which are the successors, in a sense, though not the legal successors, of the old Reichsbank branches in our zone, and they had up to the 15th of February of this year, that is, between the 15th of January '47 and 15th of February, '47 we have paid out approximately 100,000 of those certificates of payment, the total amount of which is in the neighborhood of 7 million marks. In addition we have handled, about 85,000 so-called certificates of credit which, as I explained, we are unable to pay on immediately, but which we examine and return to the States for proper authentication, so that they will ultimately also be paid.\nSo if you add the two together, we have handled about up to the l3th February, about 185,000 of these cases, and where we have paid out, we have paid out at the rate of 33-1/3¢ a mark which is approximately a fair average of what the mark was before the war. We arrived at the figure of 33-1/3¢ on the basis of the present purchasing power of the mark on the legal market. We did not, of course, take into account the purchasing power of the mark on the black market, but purely on the basis of what the legal price rate in general is as compared with an OPA legal price rate in the United States.\nQThen to summarize, all prisoners of war were paid at the rate prescribed by the Geneva Convention?\nAThat is correct, sir, as far as my information goes.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1835, "page_number": "1431", "date": "03 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-03", "text": "CROSS EXAMINATION BY DR. BERGOLD:\nQMr. Witness, do you know that the United States of America, or through the United States of America, a large number of prisoners of war were in the hands of the American Army and that they were given to the French Government?\nAI do not know that from personal knowledge, but purely from what I have read in the newspapers.\nQDo you know from your conversations and conferences in Berlin if the work of these prisoners of war who were with the French Government is being paid?\nAI do not know that from any personal knowledge.\nDR. BERGOLD:May it please Your Honors, you will be interested to know I have a son who is 22. He had been a prisoner of war with the Americans. He had been captured at St. Nazaire and he was then captured by the French. He had to work, but he did not receive any payment, because the French could not or did not pay anything to all those prisoners of war, and that applies to all German prisoners of who were returned to the United States zone -- from France, that is.\nTHE PRESIDENT:That applies to what?\nDR. BERGOLD:That applies to all the prisoners of war who were given to the French Government by the American forces after the end of the war.\nTHE WITNESS:Your Honor, May I say that that, of course would not -- we naturally, if I may be allowed to say this, would not be likely to give our certificates of payment for work rendered to the French Government.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Obviously. We are attempting to find out the truth about the point which you have raised, not what did the French do with prisoners of war, but what did the United States do with prisoners of war.", "speakers": [ "THE WITNESS", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "Q", "A" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1836, "page_number": "1432", "date": "03 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-03", "text": "DR. BERGOLD:May I add one thing, Your Honor? I did not submit the report by Gen. Marshall with respect to this payment. It does not play an important part in this trial. It plays not a important part, but I submitted it because it says in that report that the value of the work in military installations amounted to so and so much, so that I can deduce from that that these prisoners of war actually were at the military installations. That is the point which I am trying to prove, and not as to the payment.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:You heard the explanation given by Mr. Denney, that when they worked on military installations that they were employed as waiter and as cooks and housekeepers.\nMR. PENNEY:If Your Honor please --\nDR.BERGOlD: I don't think that this is a sufficient explanation. This does not refer to work in the house or as waiters.\nMR. DENNEY:Obviously, if Dr. Bergold isn't willing to take the statement, I will certainly get a statement from the War Department about it. Having some vague familiarity with the United States Army regulations and War Department circulars, having spent six years in it -- the term \"military installation\" as used in that connection in Gen. Marshall's report is to cover the standard phrase in tho Army, \"posts, camps, garrisons, and stations, and I shall get a statement from the War Department to that effect. I will be very glad to submit it, I thought perhaps we could save some time this way.\nDR. BERGOLD:Very well, Your Honors; thank you.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Well, will somebody take bearings now and see where we are on the sea of litigation? We are waiting for the witness Jorwald?\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes, Your Honor.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Very well. Let's start waiting, then. We will reassemble tomorrow at 9:30 and see what happens.\n(A recces was taken until 0930 hours 4 March 1947)", "speakers": [ "MR. PENNEY", "DR.", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "MR. DENNEY", "DR. BERGOLD", "JUDGE MUSMANNO" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1837, "page_number": "1433", "date": "04 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-04", "text": "Official transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America against Erhard Milch, defendant, sitting at Nuernberg, Germany, on 4 March 1947, 1350-1650 hours, Justice Toms presiding.\nTHE MARSHAL:Persons in the courtroom will please find their seats. The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal 2. Military Tribunal 2 is now in session. God save the United States of America and this honorable Tribunal. There will be order in the court.\nTHE PRESIDENT:You may proceed, Dr. Bergold.\nDR. BERGOLD:May it please the Court, I now submit as Exhibit 52 the record of the interrogation of the witnesses Neurath and Speer of 19 February 1947. I world ask you to make it a part of the record of this case.\nTHE PRESIDENT:This transcript -- this exhibit -- will be incorporated in the regular transcript of testimony taken in the case and the pages will be consecutively numbered, or rather, be re-numbered to conform to the current paging of the testimony taken.\nDR. BERGOLD:I shall now ask Mr. Denney to submit what he has to submit. I have nothing to submit myself. I have a few supplements but they are not at my disposal yet in English.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The transcript just introduced in evidence contains the interrogation of the witnesses Neurath, Speer, and also Raeder?\nDR. BERGOLD:No, it does not.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Just Neurath and Speer?\nDR. BERGOLD :Yes. I have now been given by Mr. Denney the record of the Raeder interrogation. I would also ask that be incorporated if I could obtain the English translation.", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD ", "THE MARSHAL", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1838, "page_number": "", "date": "04 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-04", "text": "I submit to the Court this Protocol and ask to handle this in the same manner as the Protocol Speer and Neurath.\nTHE PRESIDENT:This will be incorporated in the same exhibit as the testimony of Neurath and Speer.\n1433(a) INTERROGATION OF A D M I R A L R A E D E R 1 February 1947 Dr. Bergold:", "speakers": [ "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1839, "page_number": "1434", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "\"Were you present at the conference of the 23rd of May the new Reich Chancellery when the famous Schmund records were established?\nMr. Denney: Can we have the year?\nRaeder: Five days later there were records taken on this conference.\nJudge Musmanno: Mr. Denney asked a question. Let's have everything.\nRaeder: 1939.\nJudge Musmanno: What month?\nRaeder: 23 May. All these dates are in my interrogation and known to my lawyer. Dr. Bergold is cognizant of that fact.\nDr. Borgold: I have only a few questions to this protocol, the record of Schmund. It has been noted that Field Marshal Goering was present. Was he actually present?\nRaeder: I cannot say that today. It is very probable that he was there but in the protocol Schmund prepared the list of people present. Whether he was actually there, I think it is very likely, but I cannot say for sure.\nDr. Bergold: Did you hear the end of the meeting? Hilch went up to the Fuehrer and asked him whether he would not be allowed to make a report to Goering because he was a substitute for Goering.\nRaeder: I cannot recollect that Milch was there at all. Whether he was there or not is entirely unknown to me.\nDr. Bergold: In this protocol at the end there is laid down as a matter of principle and this basic principle reads as follows: first, nobody shall participate or nobody must participate who is not to be in the know. Nobody has to learn more than he has to know. At what time has the person concerned to know at the latest.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1840, "page_number": "1435", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "Nobody must learn anything any sooner than he has to know it. Do you know that those principles are contained in the so-called basic Fuehrer order?\nRaeder: I only know that on this occasion those principles were laid down. They were mentioned and I know that Hitler, as well as people like Himmler himself, has followed those principles strictly. It is clear from those facts that so many people knew nothing of facts which did not concern them directly. Hitler and Himmler were masters in this art and they demanded from all other persons that they on their part adhere to this principle closely.\nDr. Bergold: Isn't this a fault of your memory? Milch thinks that the Fuehrer only said nobody must say anything about this meeting. The gentlemen present must not even discuss it amongst themselves.\nMr. Denney: If your Honor please, I certainly want to allow Dr. Bergold every latitude but now he is putting to the witness what Milch says today. He first asked the witness concerning the meeting and concerning his recollection. Now the witness has given his answer and I submit that the witness' answer should stand, and not that Dr. Bergold should state what Filch tells him today. It is his recollection what happened almost 8 years ago.\nDr. Bergold: The witness was mistaken in his first answer. I must have the possibility to ask him whether he is not mistaken, whether there was not another utterance made at . that time. I am prepared to drop the word Milch.\nJudge Husmanno: Dr. Bergold will be permitted to ask the witness to search his memory but he may not indicate to the witness what Milch is saying today. Dr. Bergold may direct the witness' attention to any pertinent incident or episode because we understand that when eight years have passed, it is possible for the witness to overlook something. Dr. Bergold may be him to recall by referring to some specific episode, but he may not tell him what Milch is saying today.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1841, "page_number": "1436", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "Dr. Bergold: I understand. I want to change my question now. Are you not mistaken that this order for silence that it was made in this form? Wasn't it that Hitler only said nobody must divulge the contents of this meeting to third parties? Gentlemen must not discuss it amongst themselves either.\nRaeder: Of course, I cannot remember details today after so long a time. It is very likely that Hitler in the beginning of the meeting, perhaps at the end again, said that no other person must learn about this meeting, but I think and I am positive about it - that this was one of the main points of his speech. Those principles as they have been read hero, they were mentioned here, I am quite sure it was another occasion when they laid down those principles and he acted accordingly.\nDr. Bergold: Is it not a fact that this order of silence was only issued in January 1940 when an airplane that carried secret orders mistakenly made a landing in Belgium?\nRaeder: I cannot say anything about this. I cannot recollect anything about this.\nDr. Bergold: In this protocol of Schmund, Japan is mentioned. Can you recollect that in this meeting Japan was mentioned at all Raeder:\nNo, I cannot recollect anything about Japan.\nDr. Bergold: Is Japan mentioned at all in this?\nRaeder: No, I cannot recollect - Japan? I cannot remember at this time.\nDr. Bergold This protocol, and. the Fuehrer also mentions that he doesn't want to have any colonies? Die he actually say that?\nRaeder I cannot say that - Hitler in this case sometimes changes his point of view.\nDr. Bergold: In this protocol, Hitler further says the following: \"If the Army, in collaboration with the Air Force and the Navy, has only taken the most important position, then the industry production will cease to flow into the bottomless pit of the army's battles, The air Forces and the army first will benefit from it\". Do you remember a thought like this after the first important successes that industry should only work for the Air Force and for the Navy and no longer for the Army?", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1842, "page_number": "", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "Raeder: At this meeting? No I cannot recollect.\nDr. Bergold: Correct. The thought originally was Hitler's only after the collapse of France.\nMr. Denney: Your Honor, I submit that he can't ask him when a thought originated with Hitler. Good Heavens, you certainly can ask him when he first thought about it, but as to what went on in Hitler's mind!\nInterpreter: Dr. Bergold wants to drop the question.\nDr. Bergold: Hitler says further that it would mean a better production for cruisers. Can you remember that this was said in 1939?\nRaeder: No, I cannot remember.\nDr. Bergold: Furthermore, Hitler mentioned the fact that the Italians should break through the Maginot Line. Can you remember whether military action of that nature was mentioned at that time?\nRaeder: No, I cannot recollect. I don't think it is probable that he discussed military questions of that nature at that time.\nDr. Bergold: That concludes my questions.\nRaeder: But I cannot remember the presence of Herr Milch. But the protocol in regard to Goering - this would prove that Goering was present.\nDr. Bergold: That is your opinion? Milch - -\nJudge Musmanno: You have asked your questions, Doctor. Certainly anything that the witness wants to add by way of bat clarification so as Dr, of Bergold what he telling said him I think what is Milch perfectly said, proper that has, no place.\nDr. Bergold: He only said he could not recollect -that he only wanted to say that Milch was present.\n*1437* Mr. Denney:", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1843, "page_number": "", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "Well he says he doesn't know.\nDr. Bergold: That will be all.\nMr. Denney: How long did the meeting last?\nRaeder: I cannot say. I can only guess at it from the length of the protocol.\nMr. Denney: Do you know whether it was in the morning, afternoon or evening.\nRaeder: I couldn't say that either.\nMr. Denney: Do you remember the names of the people who were there?\nRaeder: According to the protocol which I read here it is probable that the people listed were there.\nMr. Denney: But you have no present recollection of the peoplo who were at the meeting?\nRaeder: No, it was always the first in command and the General Staff.\nMr. Denney: How many such meetings did he (Raeder) attend between the years of 1935 and 1942?\nRaeder: At all meetings, the protocols of which have been submitted during the trials, that means November 1937 May 1938 and then there was August 1939 - -\n(Mr. Denney: And I think November 1939) Judge Musmanno:\nWhere was this meeting held? In the Reich Chancellery where?\nRaeder: In 1937 and 1938 in the Reich Chancellery.\nJudge Musmanno: In 1937 the Reich Chancellery wasn't yet set up, was it?\nRaeder: Yes it was.\nJudge Musmanno: Well of course there was one. I mean the present one. There is a difference between ---But I understand the May 1939 meeting was in the new Reich Chancellery.\nRaeder: If Hitler lived there, then it would have been there. In August 1939 it was at the Berghof.\nMr. Denney: Obersalzburg. But he doesn't know where the meeting of May 1939 was held?\n**1438* Raeder:", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1844, "page_number": "", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "Yes, I said it was in the Reich Chancellery.\nJudge Musmanno: The 1937 meeting was held in his chalet?\nRaeder: No I don't say that.\nMr. Denney: That was August 1939. The 1937 one was hold in the old Reich Chancellery.\nJudge Musmanno: Were these meetings usually in the daytime or at night?\nRaeder: In the daytime - mostly in the afternoon. The Berghof, meeting was in the morning.\nJudge Musmanno: Were they strictly formal?\nRaeder: Yes, very formal.\nJudge Musmanno: Was there any social angle connected with them?\nRaeder: Yes, there was a luncheon given at the Berghof, otherwise not.\nJudge Musmanno: Which meeting was that?\nRaeder: That was August 1939. All had to travel and that's why the luncheon was given - because they all had to journey to Obersalzburg.\nDr. Bergold: Was there a certain uniform prescribed or certain dress prescribed for these meetings?\nRaeder: No. We were our civilian suits.\nJudge Musmanno: Oh, civilian suits! That's all.\n**1439** INTERROGATION Official Transcript of the proceedings of an INTERROGATION duly had and taken, before the AMERICAN MiLITARY TRIBUNAL No. 2, in the matter of the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA versus ERHARD MILCH, Defendant, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, commencing at the hour of 0930, on the 19th day of February, 1947, the HONORABLE MUSMANNO, Judge, Presiding.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1845, "page_number": "1440", "date": "19 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-19", "text": "THE MARSHAL:You will all rise.\n(All stand up)\nTHE MARSHAL:The Honorable, the Judge of Court No. 2. You may be seated.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:The other time we took interrogatories, Dr. Bergold and Mr. Denney, we proceeded as one would in taking interrogatories in a formal way, yet we are permitting both sides all the latitude that would be permitted in regular proceedings in Court.\nDR. BERGOLD:May it please the Tribunal, may I call the witness Constantin von Neurath:\nJUDGE MUSFANNO:The witness will be brought in.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:You will please raise your right hand (The witness does, as directed.)\nJUDGE HUSMANNO:Do you swear by God, to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, all of which you will answer to on the Last Great Day?\nTHE WITNESS:Yes, I do.\nCONSTANTIN von NEURATH, thereupon testified as follows:\nDIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. BERGOLD:\nQWill you please proceed to state your first name and your second name?\nAConstantin von Neurath.\nQWhen were you born?\nA 2nd of February, 1871.\nQWhat was your last position in the German Reich?\nAI was a Reich Minister Court No. 2. - Interrogation.", "speakers": [ "THE WITNESS", "JUDGE MUSFANNO", "JUDGE HUSMANNO", "A", "DR. BERGOLD", "Q", "THE MARSHAL", "JUDGE MUSMANNO" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1846, "page_number": "1441", "date": "19 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-19", "text": "BY DR. BERGOLD: Witness, I have only a few questions to put to you:\nQ.In what position were you, as of May 1918 until about 1925?\nA.In 1919 (pause) in February of 1919. I rejoined the Diplomatic Services. and was at first in that position in Copenhagen; after that, from 1921 on, I was Ambassador in Rome.\nQ.Witness, do you know that the Soviet Government did not recognize the treaties which the Czarist Government had concluded with European and other countries?\nA.I know that in 1918 or early in 1919, the then soviet representative in Berlin called at the German Foreign Office and said that the Soviet Government would not recognize any treaties concluded by the Czarist government.\nQ.Was there also among these treaties, also the one known as the Hague Convention on Land Warfare?\nA.Oh yes. The Hague Convention for Land Warfare was also signed by the Czarist government, but the Soviet Government repudiated it.\nQ.Was the Geneva, the revised Geneva Convention of 1929, also one of the conventions mentioned?\nA.That was the Convention passed before the -- the Geneva Convention of 1929.\nBY DR. BERG0LD: Yes, please, continue along. (Pause) Just a minute. One more question, sir.\nQIs it known to you that the revised Geneva Convention of 1929 was not signed by Russia?\nA.Yes, that is known to me.\nDR. BERGOID:May it please the Tribunal, I hove no further questions to the witness.\nCROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. DENNEY:Witness, you said it was in 1918 or 1919 that a representative of the then Russian Government called at the Foreign Office in Berlin and stated that the Russian Government as it existed at that time did not recognize any treaties which had been entered into by the Government under the Romanoffs?", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOID", "Q.", "A.", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1847, "page_number": "1442", "date": "19 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-19", "text": "AYes.\nQWere you there at the tine he made this statement?\nANo. I wasn't present at the time but it was told to me afterwards in my official capacity of a diplomatic representative of the Reich.\nQYou were in Denmark at that time, weren't you?\nAYes.\nQAnd from there you went to England?\nAYes, hut only in 1930.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1848, "page_number": "1443", "date": "19 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-19", "text": "Q.Was this announcement by the Russian representative of which you have spoken made in other capitals at that time?\nA.As far as I know, yes.\nQ.He made it all over the world?\nA.Yes. In any case it was generally known.\nQ.I asked you before whether or not you knew about the treaties of non-aggression and the amendments to these treaties which were concluded between Ribbentrop and Molotov prior to the time that Germany declared war on Russia in 1941?\nA.It was known to me that in August 1939 a treaty had been concluded; that is, the non-aggression pact.\nQ.Did you know the contents of the treaty?\nA.No.\nQ.Did you know about any subsequent amendments to the treaty?\nA.No.\nQ.Where did you first learn the contents of the non-aggression pact?\nA.Only here in the trial, here in this trial.\nQ.That is, during the first trial before the -\nA.Yes, in that trial in which I was sentenced.\nQ.The trial before the International Military Tribunal here in Nurnberg?\nA.Yes, quite.\nQ.Did you ever know that the question of treatment of Soviet prisoners of war was passed on by the legal authorities in the Wehrmacht?\nA.No, I had no connection with that and I haven't heard anything about it.\nQ.So you don't know whether or not an opinion was ever asked of them as to what would be proper and what would be improper so far as the conduct of the German military forces was concerned with reference to Russian prisoners of war.\nA.No, I cannot give you any information on that point.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1849, "page_number": "", "date": "19 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-19", "text": "Q.So far as you know the question was never raised?\nA.No, not as far as I am concerned.\nMR. DENNEY:No further questions.\nDR. BERGOLD:I have no further questions either.\n1443 a Court No. 2. Interrogation.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1850, "page_number": "1444", "date": "19 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-19", "text": "JUDGE MUSMANNO:The witness may be excused. I suggest that he not be returned directly to the prison, but be held outside the courtroom.\n(Witness excused)\nDR. BERGOLD:May I call the next witness, Erich Raeder.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:The witness Raeder will be brought into the courtroom.\nDR. BERGOLD:May it please the Tribunal, I have just heard that Raeder isn't here yet, only Speer.\nMay it please the Court, I am just told that Raeder does not wish to make statements for Milch. There is a certain animosity between those two men as far as Raeder is concerned, not as far as Milch is concerned. He is angry with Milch, why I do not know. They didn't get on to ether, but I an of the opinion if the Court orders his interrogation he should appear. Surely the witness could not decide himself whether we could -\nMR. DENNEY:May it please the Court, I move that the remarks just made by Dr. Bergold be stricken. They have no place in this proceeding. He has called the witness, and for him to get into the record a statement about Raeder doesn't like Milch, but Milch doesn't hold anything against anybody -- it's really absurd. He knows better than to make statements like that on the record. I an sure that the Court isn't interested in the feelings between Raeder and Milch, if any, and I am certain that it has no place in this record. I respectfully submit that they should be stricken. I don't mind his saying anything to your Honor that he wants to, but to come here and make long speeches about how Milch and Raeder feel about one another is fantastic.\nDR. BERGOLD:Your Honor, for the record, I only wished to explain to the Court why Raeder didn't wish to turn up, and I therefore would ask the Court to order Raeder to appear.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:And you are willing to withdraw your remarks about Milch not being at odds with the world?\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes, yes.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:Very well. The prisoner Raeder will be ordered to appear before the Court. Dr. Bergold, will you be willing to proceed with Mr. Speer awaiting the arrival of Admiral Raeder?", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD", "MR. DENNEY", "JUDGE MUSMANNO" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1851, "page_number": "1445", "date": "19 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-19", "text": "Court No. 2. Interrogation\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:Very well.\nDR. BERGOLD:I myself do not wish to ask Speer any questions but Mr. Denney probably has some, so therefore I hand it over to Mr. Donney right away.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:Yes.\nALBERGSPEER, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:Will you please raise your right hand? Do you swear by Almighty God to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth and for which yon will answer on the last great day?\nTHE WITNESS:I swear that I shall speak the pure truth and nothing but the truth and answer for that on Judgment Day.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:Very well. You may be seated.\nEXAMINATION BY MR. DENNEY:\nQ.I just have one or two questions to ask. Do you recall that we had session similar to this in this court a matter of a week or ten days ago\nA.Yes.\nQ.And do you remember we had one u stairs in a room two or three days before that?\nYes.\nQ.I would like to direct your attention to the first session in point of time, the one which was held before his Honor and Dr. Bergold, end myself, with you present in one of the interrogation rooms. Do you recall that?\nA.Yes, I do.\nQ.Do you recall Dr. Bergold asking you these questions and you making these answers? He said: \"'Question: How did the Air Force Industry got its workers?\" It was at the beginning of the session. And you said, \"The Air Force Industry requested its workers from the Generalluftzeugmeister. Simultaneously the firms made their requests to the labor offices. From 1942 on the requests of the different forces of the Air Force were collected and presented to me. There is a decree between Sauckel and me which was drawn up in 1942\".", "speakers": [ "THE WITNESS", "Q.", "ALBERG", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "JUDGE MUSMANNO" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1852, "page_number": "1446", "date": "19 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-19", "text": "Court No. 2. Interrogation.\nDo you recall that question and that answer?\nA.Yes I do.\nQ.Then you were asked by Dr. Bergold: \"Therefore, from 1942 on the Air Force Industry's requests for workers for the armament inspection were directly announced to you?\" And then I said, \"He is again assuming the answer in his question\" -- speaking to Dr. Bergold through his Honor -- \"I suggest that the question he is posing is contrary to the answer the witness has just given. He\" ... the witness ... \"Said the channel was through the Generalluftzougmeister. And then Dr. Bergold said, \"I am trying to prove whether the witness might have made an error before.\"\nAnd then his Honor said, \"Then you should ask him directly,\" Do you recall that.?\nA.Yes, I do.\nQ.And then Dr. Bergold said -- Dr. Bergold now -- \"Did you mean that the requests from 1942 on were not given by way of the Generalluftzeugmeister but directly to you?\" And then you said, \"I am sorry, but that is not so. The requests of the Air Armament Industries for laborers were presented to Milch and he did not permit anyone to take this right away from him till March 1944\" Do you remember all that?\nA.Yes.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1853, "page_number": "1447", "date": "19 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-19", "text": "Court No. 2. Interrogation.\nQ.And those statements are correct?\nA.Those are correct. I would like to add that our organization was very involved and complicated, and it was very difficult on the basis of the decrees available to reconstruct the precise picture. Moreover, it should be taken into consideration that from time to time the system of request for labor was changed and that after that it was found that the new system did not lead to the desired results of a more precise request for labor, and a new system was needed, but, on the whole, what I said, is correct.\nMR. DENNEY:No further questions.\nBY JUDGE MUSMANNO:\nQ.Her Speer, I would like to understand the machinery by which labor was brought into Germany beginning with the request by any particular department for any particular number of workers. Let us suppose that someone appeared before the Central Planning Board and said, \"I will need fifty thousand men for a factory that I am about to construct.\" How please tell us just what happened. Would you issue an order to somebody? Would he then in turn order someone else, and how did these workers finally then arrive in Germany?\nA.If somebody on the Central planning Board requested labor, the Central Planning Board did not issue an order that these workers must be supplied, but the Central Planning Board agreed that those workers can be supplied. An order by the Central planning Board, Sauckel would not have accepted. That is a definite fact. A large area of workers -- in many cases of labor request, my Mini cry collected the requests after the decree with Sauckel of September, 1942.\nIt is quite clear that the requests for labor did not occur in those long intervals between the meetings of the Central Planning Board, but this had to happen in much shorter intervals and in a constant collaboration with the people concerned, for the enemy air raids and changes in programs which became necessary because of the military situation made these changes very often necessary. Therefore, for the whole of our armament industry and also for certain branches of production outside armament that there were in my ministry, we decided on so-called framework contingents, and priority lists were drawn up. I do not know whether you are interested in that part.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1854, "page_number": "1448", "date": "19 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-19", "text": "Court No. 2. Interrogation.\nQ.Well, not particularly. I want very succinctly a statement as to the steps which ensure after the declaration of someone before the Central Planning Board that he needed a certain number of workers. Who was informed of this request? Who authorized the call for the workers? Who submitted the demand? Who then at the other and gathered the workers? Not in detail -- I just want the steps in movement from the Central Planning Board until the men actually arrived.\nA.The Central Planning Board did not deal with that matter anymore afterwards. Let us say the request of labor, say, of the coal mining industry -\nQ.Yes.\nQ. -- was reported to Sauckel by the coal mining industry itself. Therefore, one could call a meeting of the Central Planning Board as a statement for Sauckel that such labor is very important for the coal mining industry, and that as far as possible he has to supply them. That is necessary within the framework of economic planning, but beyond that the Central Planning Board did not pursue the matter any further or was not in a position to do so even.\nQ.Well, did you know there at the fountain head of labor -- because if you made the request originally, that is what started the machinery in motion -did you not know that bringing in workers forcibly from occupied territories to work in the war operation constituted a violation of international convention? Weren't you aware of that right at the very source?\nA.What I say now is not meant to be an excuse. I really did not know it. Up to the beginning of my trial here, the regulations of international law were unknown to me, and nobody ever drew my attention to it that such regulations exist; but I want to say once more I don't say this in order to excuse myself, here, but it is a fact that it was like this.\nQ.Well, you were certainly quite aware from the decision of the International Military Tribunal just how illegal and improper that was.\nA.I took note of it there, and, after all, I received my punishment for it now.\nQ.Well, could you not have followed the same line of reasoning adopted by the Tribunal, which, after all, was based upon International convention?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1855, "page_number": "1449", "date": "19 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-19", "text": "Court No. 2. Interrogation.\nYou were a man of education, a man of great cultural attainments and of great technical ability, and it was because of those attributes that you were chosen by Hitler to become the Minister of Armaments. Could you not have reasoned that out by yourself? Wasn't it very clear and obvious?\nA.I believe that the general knowledge of the principles of international law can only be brought to the knowledge of a wider circle of legal laymen if after a war legal offenses committed during the war will be revealed by a public trial, and thereby a more general knowledge of offenses against international law becomes known. You know that I was an architect and that such knowledge as I had in the field of law I merely received from newspapers, and I know, for instance, all about various legal commitments of architects which on the building side are fairly extensive.\nI would say that a groat mistake has been committed hero by omitting after tho first World War to establish international legal conditions by trials, and at the same time to adjust it to the developments of technical warfare instead of which after the first World War the whole question of the deportation of labor, for instance, was decided by the highest German courts, and as far as I know, this decision of that court was not particularly clear. This is how the basis of ignorance is laid in the field of international law, and I believe that many a mistake and many a violation in this war could have been avoided or at least mitigated if a general knowledge of international law had prevailed.", "speakers": [ "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1856, "page_number": "1450", "date": "19 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-19", "text": "Court No. 2 Interrogation.\nQ.Would you say that had there been, following the first world war, trials such as these we are now conducting, that you then would have been aware of the illegality of the practices in which you were engaged; or rather, you would have been aware of the illegality of such practices and that then you would not have participated in them?\nA.I am of the opinion that trials against the main responsibility after the first world war would have enlightened public opinion and myself on the basis of international law. I do not wish to go as far as to say that I would not have committed those breaches of law for it is very difficult to excuse one's self after the event by saying one had acted only through ignorance of international law. Nevertheless, I should say that observing international law would have been possible without, while I myself, that without me, less time in my armament drive. Of course only that fact of international law is concerned which deals with the recruiting of labor, whereas the other factor, the so-called legal looting of occupied territories as it is called, there is no doubt that that would have been necessary for an increased output of armament violations of international law as far as the assignment of labor was concerned were in my opinion not only not necessary, but unreasonable, he would have achieved more if we had observed the international law. This is a very complicated topic; I do not know whether you are interested why this should he so.\nQ.Well, I merely want you to enlighten me, if you care to, on this specific angle. You are considered a specialist. Now, had there been an international trial following the first world war, and the decision in that trial had been very clear and specific -- as was the decision in this trial -- you would have then known the limitations very specifically on the conduct of war; and having then known Court No. 2 Interrogation.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1857, "page_number": "", "date": "19 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-19", "text": "that you couldn't do certain things, would you then have refused to participate as you did in this world war as a specialist? Having been put on notice that you cannot take labor from other countries forcibly and throw them into the armement industries -- knowing all that, would you then have refused to give your services to Hitler in the prosecution ff the war?\nA.The first part of the question I wish to say if a trial and a clear 1450 a Court No. 2 Interrogation.", "speakers": [ "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1858, "page_number": "1451", "date": "19 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-19", "text": "decision had happened after the first world war, then certainly somebody would have put the international law and regulations on my desk; that is to say he would have informed me of it. The second question, it is not possible to answer the second part of the question so simply, for when I started my office in 1942 the war in all directions had already left all given international regulations. Please don't misunderstand me if I point out hero that economic warfare was waged by the British and Americans with extreme concentrations by bombing warfare which was not a matter of national reprisal because it had industries in occupied territories. On the other hand the war with Russia had gone beyond the normal limits, if I can call it that. It is difficult for me to say who was the guilty party.\nQ.I do not refer to that period after the war had reached such a limit that there were no restrictions. I am speaking of before the war started -- whether a man of your education could have been enlisted in a practice which you know and would then have known was entirely illegal and contrary to international law as well as the precepts and dictates of humanity.\nA.I would not have participated if I had known the whole material which became known in our first big trial as far as documents were concerned. If I had known that Hitler since 1938 had prepared for war and tied his own fate to that of his people to such an extent that his end was tho end of his own nation -\nQ.I didn't intend to enter into such a long discussion on this. All I had in mind was this --- that if those in your classification as specialists would have observed international law, and would have known clearly what international law was -- the restrictions, the limitations and so on -", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1859, "page_number": "", "date": "19 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-19", "text": "Court No. 2 Interrogation.\nand if we assume that these specialists were men of character; that 1451(a) Court No. 2 Interrogation even though Germany had at the helm a navigator who had become mad, that he could not have run his ship on to the rocks without the crew of specialists who assisted him in the shipwreck--because you would have refused to ship on a venture which was so obviously bound for the rocks, internationally speaking.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1860, "page_number": "", "date": "19 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-19", "text": "Is that true or not?\n1451 b Court No. 2 - Interrogation", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1861, "page_number": "1452", "date": "19 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-19", "text": "A.That is so without a doubt.\nQ.And would you go so far as to say that had there been an international trial of the proportions of the one we have just had, and these which are now following, after the first world war, that the knowledge which resulted from the decisions which would have been handed down after the first world war would have become so well known because of the punishment which would have been inflicted, that might have served as a bar against a second world war?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1862, "page_number": "1453", "date": "19 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-19", "text": "A.I do not wish to say that it would have been stopped and Hitler -\nQ.If Hitler could not have had specialists -- Hitler could not have done this himself. Hitler had to have a Speer and had to have the others who were condemned in the first International Military Tribunal. He could not have done it alone.\nA.That's quite clear but these specialists were taken into their part of the war without realizing what the connections were and an International Trial is not a wholly sure method to prevent a new war but I think it's a very essential contribution for that purpose. I am unable to answer your question by saying if Hitler would have been unable to find collaborators if after the first World War these trials had been held, but I do wish to say it would have been much more difficult for him and for further reasons that our specialists were not very intimately connected with the party circles.\nQ.Well, I think that's a point I wanted to find out; that if the specialists had refused to collaborate, knowing that the contribution of their services meant completely an illegal undertaking then Hitler could not have conducted a war by himself and therefore there could not have been a war?\nA.In technical warfare the specialists are decisive factors to wage war but the specialists are not to be regarded as being principally responsible parties. They do not have the knowledge of the background, the political background, which is necessary in consideration of Hitler's untruthfulness, for them to see where he is taking the ship.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:Do you have any questions, Dr. Bergold?\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes, sir, I have. Witness; your Honor. The Judge has asked you how it would be if a factory, for instance, would need and would request 50,000 workers which way and in which channel which would have been done up to the point in foreign territories when 50,000 foreigners would have been gathered and taken to Germany for that purpose, isn't it correct that such a request -- that such a pro posal of bringing 50,000 workers to this factory did not mean that 50,000 foreign workers but meant only that 50,000 1453 a Court No. 2 - INTERROGATION workers altogether were brought into the Reich?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "JUDGE MUSMANNO" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1864, "page_number": "1454", "date": "19 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-19", "text": "That meant German workers as well as foreign workers and which were actually over in Germany and employed there and also new recruits? That included all that, did it not?\nA.I was deflected from my answer in that particular case and I bid not really give an answer to the question. If 50,000 workers were requested for a certain branch in our industry the oldest request, a figure which did not show how many of them were Germans and how many of them were foreign workers. The bigger part of the workers which were supplied came from what was called fluctuation. Fluctation meant the transfer of workers from one plant to another. It's quite clear that production is in a constant development. One always follows the other and in some cases one orders particular workers and then it loses that importance for military reasons. The plan is that some workers available are constantly released and sent on to different plants or industries. A second force, where the newly mobilized German workers mean the women workers and a third force, was the sending of foreign workers already in Germany and a fourth force, the prisoners-of-war who were also sent on from one branch to the next and the fifth force was such that some that came in abroad newly from foreign countries. How these various workers from these various forces were distributed among branches, my offices nor the factories who had requested workers could find out about. That was a matter purely which had to be decided by the labor exchanges because it took an enormous amount of work to find the proper workers for the proper branches. Therefore, labor assignments always had a basic conduct for it's right -- the demand that this right must not be interfered with. The whole force of workers, both in agricultural industry, coal mining always wore uniforms under the directions of the labor office in the lower regions and neither the factors nor ourselves had any influence on how many foreign workers came into various factories.\nQThank you. Witness, do you know that when the French Government, which at that time existed in Paris, had issued in order for the calling up of Labor -- compulsory labor?\nAThese details became known to me during the trial. It was my task and very enormous and at that time I did not bother much about details.", "speakers": [ "A", "A.", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1865, "page_number": "1455", "date": "19 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-19", "text": "I cannot say anything about this on my knowledge.\nQWitness, you must know this fact; at the time when you had discussions with Mr. Bichelonne, French Minister, I should think that the existence of compulsory labor service in France should have been discussed at that time.\nAPerhaps I misunderstood you. I said quite clearly last time that I knew about the fact that occupied territory workers were taken to Germany against their free-will. The various districts, etc. are not known to me.\nQNo. I mean if such a decree had been issued at all. That's what I am speaking of.\nAI had to assume that but I wasn't actually informed about it.\nQDid you consider the French Government, which at that time was in Paris, France -- did you consider it a regular government?", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1866, "page_number": "1456", "date": "19 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-19", "text": "Court No. 2 - INTERROGATION\nAThis is the same sort of question which His Honor put to me too. I had no basis to find out whether the French Government was legal or not, because these are problems of International law which are beyond me as a laymen.\nQWitness, do you not know that the Government Petain had been recognized , and was recognized by the American Government, and that the American Government had an Ambassador, if I recall correctly -- and I am net sure I can pronounce his name -- at that time, Mr. Leahy, Admiral Leahy?\nAI know that, but I must say frankly that I did not spend my time thinking about whether the French Government was legal or not.\nDR. BERGOLD:Thank you. I have no further questions.\nBY JUDGE MUSMANNO:\nQHerr Speer, what I was endeavoring to elucidate, or have you elucidate for us, was not whether you knew if a government was legal or not, if it was recognized internationally or not. I wanted to draw your attention to something quite more fundamental, and that was the employment against its will of a population in a war activity, all of which was prohibited by international law. And if you and all the specialists in the Hitler regime knew of the limitations and were thoroughly aware, and the knowledge was so widespread that you couldn't help but know that it was illegal and that you would be punished if you did it that is, to bring in workers from another country and put them into war operations -- if that were a matter of such general knowledge that every college man and every person that was well read would know of it, would Hitler not have had difficulty in obtaining such a crew to run a ship, regardless of what he may have had in mind as to the illegal port which he hoped to attain by that voyage?\nAI can only speak about the time from which I worked, that is to say, from 1942 onwards. In that time, I am sure that if these legal matters had been made quite clear a large number of technicians or industrial leaders would not have collaborated to the extent they did if they had realized the illegality and the possible punishment.\nI would like to stress this particularly for the period from 1943 onwards. From that time onwards, many intelligent people realized that the war had been Court No. 2 - INTERROGATION lost, and from that time onwards it would have made a great impression if in former trials heavy punishment was meted out.", "speakers": [ "A", "DR. BERGOLD", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1867, "page_number": "1457", "date": "19 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-19", "text": "Not everybody would have been impressed; certain people would have followed the old line, out the majority of so-called specialists, certainly -\nQ -- would have recognized the illegality of what they were asked to do? I understand you to say that the majority of the specialists would have recognized the illegality of what they were asked to do and would have refused.\nThat is what I understand you to say.\nAYes, that is what I wanted to say.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:Very well. Thank you very much.\nMR. DENNEY:To keep the record straight, I assume that Dr. Bergold doesn't maintain that the United States, after the capitulation of France, maintained an ambassador in Paris, but rather it was to the Vichy Government.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:Yes. Dr. Bergold, you are aware of what Mr. Denney has said?\nMR. DENNEY:To the Vichy Government.\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes; it was an ambassador or a minister, admiral Leahy or somebody.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:Yes, Well, it certainly wasn't in Paris.\nDR. BERGOLD:No, no, no. Yes, I mean the Vichy Government; I mean the Vichy Government, yes.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:That is all. Thank you.\n(Witness excused.)\nDR. BERGOLD:I am just told, may it please the Court, that Herr Raeder is suffering from Hernia and that the doctor has misgivings for him to make statements today. He must be examined first, and perhaps he will be ready in a few days. It is clear, Your Honor, that under these circumstances I shall do without his interrogation today, because Raeder is over 70 years old and it would not be humane to force him to appear while he is ill. I assume that Your Honor will approve, and also that Mr. Denney will approve.\nMR. DENNEY:If Your Honor pleases, I have a suggestion. The testimony which was just elicited from the witness Neurath is in substantial agreement Court No. 2 - INTERROGATION with what he testified to before Your Honor at the first session which we had in the interrogation room.", "speakers": [ "A", "DR. BERGOLD", "MR. DENNEY", "JUDGE MUSMANNO" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1868, "page_number": "1458", "date": "19 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-19", "text": "Now I have a complete record of the testimony which was taken before Your Honor with reference to the witness Raeder. I will be glad to submit this to Dr. Bergold in German for his examination, and if it is agreeable to him we can stipulate it into the record that this witness, if called, would have testified to these things; and perhaps that will dispense with the, necessity cf having to hold another one of these sessions.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:Well, we will leave it this way, that you will give to Dr. Bergold your record of what transpired that day, and he will examine it. If he finds that the information he would like to obtain from admiral Raeder is contained in this report and that suffices for his needs, naturally, by stipulation, that can be introduced into the record. If, however, after he reads this, he finds that he still wants to question Admiral Raeder, then we see no reason why admiral Raeder should not be called and required to answer.\nIt is very obvious that the questioning will be a very short one; and whatever Admiral Raeder is now suffering from is not of such a serious nature that he cannot be taken away for a half hour to go anywhere in the Court House to answer a few simple questions put to him.\nSo we will leave it that way, and then you will inform the Court -- and I am addressing myself to you now, Dr. Bergold -- whether, after reading what Mr. Denney gives you, you want to call Admiral Raeder. If you do, you so notify the Court and he will be called.\nDR. BERGOLD:Very good.\nMR. DENNEY:I didn't mean to imply that this was to foreclose him; I As just trying to be helpful.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:I am entirely aware of that, and we are very grateful to you, Mr. Denney.\nMR. DENNEY:Yes, Your Honor.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:But I just wanted to have on the record that we are not influenced at all by what transpired here this morning as to the desires or the feelings cf this recalcitrant witness. If he is needed he will he called, and he will answer. He can't control proceedings by any particular aversions or Court No. 2 - INTERROGATION revulsions which he may feel with regard to what is now legally here for adjudication.", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD", "MR. DENNEY", "JUDGE MUSMANNO" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1869, "page_number": "1459", "date": "19 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-19", "text": "DR. BERGOLD:I agree completely, and I am very grateful to Mr. Denney for his proposition.\nThere is one point which I do not feel very happy about. Perhaps the Court can help me here. Raeder's statement has not been put under oath, but if Mr. Denney is agreed with me that he will submit it as a document to the Court, then that will probably not make any difficulties.\nMR. DENNEY:I will be very glad to have it translated and furnish it to Dr. Bergold, and, provided he wants it, get such additional copies as may be necessary to properly incorporate it into the record.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:As it stands now, Dr. Bergold, it is entirely up to you. After you read this document, you determine whether it suffices or not. If it does, then we will see that it gets into the record. If it does not, you notify the Court and Raeder will be brought into Court.\nDR. BERGOLD:Thank you very much.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:I am now informed that he is now on the way up.\nMR. DENNEY:Perhaps we could take a recess.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:All right, we will take a recess for ten minutes.\n(A recess was taken.)", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD", "MR. DENNEY", "JUDGE MUSMANNO" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1870, "page_number": "1460", "date": "19 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-19", "text": "Court No. 2 - INTERROGATION\nRUDOLF EMIL HERMANNBRANDT, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:\nBY JUDGE MUSMANNO: You will raise your right hand. Do you swear by Almighty God to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth for which you will answer on the last Great Day.\nTHE WITNESS:I swear.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:Very well, you may be seated.\nTHE WITNESS:Your Honor, May I state -- Your Honor, may I say that for reasons of health I do not feel up to being interrogated now.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:Well, will counsel please come up to the Bench.\n(Discussion ensued outside the record.)\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:We will allow counsel for the witness to enter the court room.\nDR. BERGOLD:Your Honor, shall we wait until counsel comes in?\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:Yes, where is he. Where is defense counsel?\nOFFICER OF THE GUARD:He was in court number one.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:Colonel Turner said he was going after him.\nDR. BERGOLD:The witness said that counsel is not present, not only here nor upstairs. Perhaps inquiry could be made at the defense counsel room. If I were given the opportunity to telephone I could find out for you, Sir.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:Well, Colonel Turner has gone for him. In the meantime I think it is advisable to tell you, witness -- you are advised that you are not obliged to answer any questions, or make answers which may incriminate or degrade you.\nTHE WITNESS:Yes, I know that, but at the moment I have no control over what I say. I should like for that reason to refrain from answering any questions, because at the moment I am really not in a condition to do so.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:How long have you been ill?\nTHE WITNESS:For several weeks. It has been true that I have been losing weight constantly, and have been exhausted, and correspondingly my mental strength is not available in a sufficient measure. In my own case during the last few days I have not been able to do anything with my own.", "speakers": [ "THE WITNESS", "OFFICER OF THE GUARD", "RUDOLF EMIL HERMANN", "DR. BERGOLD", "JUDGE MUSMANNO" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1871, "page_number": "1461", "date": "19 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-19", "text": "Court No. 2 - INTERROGATION\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:Have you been attending the court sessions regularly?\nTHE WITNESS:On Thursday afternoon I was excused because I was no longer able to follow the proceedings. Then we had a four day recess, and yesterday afternoon I was again excused and today also.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:Would you be willing to attempt to answer the questions, and then if after we have proceeded a sufficient time in which to determine how you are holding up, and you feel that is should be detrimental to your health to continue, then we will consider whether you should desist. Has the prison physician advised you on this one way or the other?\nTHE WITNESS:I an receiving additional food so I can get into a better physician condition. I weigh only fifty kilos, and at the moment I do not have the necessary control over myself to make statements here to testify, particularly, in view of the fact that I am a defendant in the other trial.\nDR. BERGOLD:May I please say something. Witness, the questions I have to ask are very few in number, and very simple in nature, and they have nothing to do with your case.\nTHE WITNESS:Nevertheless, I should prefer to refrain and to postpone any such interrogation.\nDR. BERGOLD:But witness, we have to get along with this trial. You have deposed and sworn to one affidavit, as you know.\nTHE WITNESS:Yes.\nDR. BERGOLD:And the question is whether you have made a correct statement in matters that do not concern you but that concern Milch, and whether you wish to go ahead with your statement.\nTHE WITNESS:I still ask to be released from any interrogation.\nDR. BERGOLD:The questions are so simple you could answer them without any difficulty whatsoever. I really must insist on that.\nTHE WITNESS:I refuse to testify. I can not.\nBY DR. BERGOLD:\nQWitness, please give your first and last name?\nAI refuse to testify. I can not.\nQWould you then not like to still make a statement as to your sworn Court No. 2 - INTERROGATION affidavit?", "speakers": [ "THE WITNESS", "DR. BERGOLD", "Q", "A", "JUDGE MUSMANNO" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1872, "page_number": "1462", "date": "19 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-19", "text": "AI am not in a position to say anything about it. I can not.\nDR. BERGOLD:I do not believe that. I am persuaded to say that you can testify, and that you are responding at this time in bad faith.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:Witness, you still are able to respond intelligently to questions which are put to you, and you do not seem to be suffering any ill effects from them, from the short questioning which we already had, and certainly it can not hurt you any to respond to your name; so that it would seem that at this moment that your determination in refusing to answer is not because of my physical condition, but because of some barrier which you have set up in your mind in connection with your own case, so we will proceed for awhile, anyway. Now you will answer the questions which are put to you, and unless they in some way cause you to reply in a manner which would be injurious to your case, and to your health, but it must be reasonably obvious to us that it will have this deleterious effect, you will be called upon to answer the questions. Proceed counsel.\nBY DR. BERGOLD:\nQWitness, please state your first and last name?\nARudolf Emil Hermann Brandt.\nQWhen were you born, witness?\nA 20 June 1909.\nQ what was your last position during the Third Reich?\nAI was Personnel Expert of the Reichfuehrer-SS.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:Just a moment, Dr. Brandt.\nDR. BERGOLD:Thank you.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:Are you counsel for the witness?\nDR. FLEMMING:Dr. Flemming, I am representing Dr. Kaufmann who is the witness' counsel.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:Are you counsel for the witness.\nDR. FLEMMING:I am representing the witness' counsel, who is on a trip.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:Yes, very well.", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD", "DR. FLEMMING", "Q", "A", "JUDGE MUSMANNO" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1873, "page_number": "1463", "date": "19 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-19", "text": "Court No. 2 - INTERROGATION\nDR. FLEMMING:Let me state my misgivings about interrogating Brandt at this time. Rudolf Brandt is under treatment by the prison physician. Physically he is in extraordinarily poor condition so that the Court in the First Trial yesterday afternoon and today excused him from the proceedings, Rudolf Brandt is also mentally, as we say in Germany, pretty confused. He is, in my opinion, at the moment not in a position to be heard as a witness. His testimony has not the complete value of witness' testimony at this time.\nDR. BERGOLD:I cannot concur in this opinion of my colleague. I leave the decision to the Court.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:Dr. Bergold, about what length of time in all would be consumed by your interrogation of the witness?\nDR. BERGOLD:I think it might be 20 minutes.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:In view of what has just transpired, we think that perhaps psychologically, regarding the situation from all angles, that it might not be desirable to proceed at this moment. However, I would stand ready myself, to preside over this interrogation at any time. As this would only take 20 minutes or a half hour, I will be glad to do it in a recess period, or after court, or any time at all, and you can feel free to come to me and we will immediately set up in operation the courtroom for the purpose of taking the interrogation and we will allow the witness to think over this matter a half day or a day and then we will insist on interrogation.\nI will say to you, witness, Herr Brandt, that ww have no desire to impose upon you the duty to answer the interrogations at this moment because if you feel that you are unable to answer them right now we are not going to insist. From your appearance and from what you have already said, we are not of the opinion that you are unable to testify but we are willing to accede to your wish, or whim, or caprice, whatever it may be at this moment, because very obviously you are not in a cooperative frame of mind and that does not make for the best king of testimony; but you had better adjust yourself to this questioning, which is bound to come, so that a mere refusal today does not mean that you will not later have to testify. So you will please keep in mind that within a day or two you will be called to answer the very simple questions Court No. 2 - INTERROGATION which Dr. Bergold has indicated he wants to put to you.", "speakers": [ "DR. FLEMMING", "DR. BERGOLD", "JUDGE MUSMANNO" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1874, "page_number": "1464", "date": "19 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-19", "text": "Very well.\n(The witness is excused.)\nYou have nothing further, Dr. Bergold?\nMr. Denney, you have nothing further?\nThe session is adjourned.\nTHE MARSHALL:Court is adjourned.\n(The Tribunal adjourned until 20 February 1947 at 0930 hours.)", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHALL" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1875, "page_number": "1465", "date": "04 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-04", "text": "MR. DENNEY:Dr. Bergold, wasn't the last exhibit you put in Exhibit No. 47?\nDR. BERGOLD:That is right; but the exhibits which I have still to submit are already numbered in the translation, and the present number -- I had to withdraw the previous number in order not to change the exhibit numbers I have already given. The rest of the exhibit numbers I will submit as soon as I have the translation.\nMR. DENNEY:There are some more documents that are in the process of being translated and he has already assigned numbers to those. This keeps Dr. Bergol's records current. If Your Honors please, we would now like to offer the testimony of the witness, Miochalowski, which was taken on 21 December 1946, in the morning session, before Military Tribunal No. 1 Mr. Justice Beals presiding. We have assigned this the document numberNOKW 561-- 651; thank you-- and, at the proper time we will offer it as Exhibit No. 131, and we request that it be assigned No. 131 now, for identification.\nTHE PRESIDENT:It will be so marked.\nMR. DENNEY:Thank you, sir. The first part, which I would like to read, appears on page 872, which is a page of the copy which Your Honors have, and it is some where around 911 or -12 in the German copy. It begins with Direct Examination by Mr. McHaney:\n\"Q. Your name is Leo Miochalowski?\nA.Yes, sir.\nQ.When and where were you born, witness?\nA.On the 22nd of March, 1909, in Babrzozne, Poland.\nQ.Are you a citizen of Poland?\nA.Yes.\nQ.What is your present address, witness?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1876, "page_number": "1466", "date": "04 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-04", "text": "A.Raderherst, in the district of Minden, Westphalia.\nQ.Are you a Catholic priest, witness?\nA.Yes.\nQ.And you are now a chaplain of the Polish Military Mission to the headquarters of the British Army of the Rhine?\nA.Yes, and I am occupied and active now in the DP camp.\nQ.What were you doing from 1933 until the war broke out?\nA.I was minister in Poland at that time.\nQ.Were you arrested by the Germans in 1939?\nA.Yes.\nQ.Will you explain to the Tribunal how that came about?\nA.It had been announced that everybody had to report; if he failed to do so it would be punished by death, that they would have to report to the town major's office. I was convinced that this was a registration and accordingly went there. I was immediately arrested upon my arrival there.\nQ.Did they tell you why you were arrested?\nA.No, but later on I saw my warrant of arrest in prison.\nQ.And did it give you any idea of why you were arrested?\nA.Only warrant of arrest - it had been written, underlined with a red pencil.\nQ.And that is the only reason which you know as to why you were arrested?\nA.I was never charged and never called to any trial or any other legal proceedings.\nQ.Were you at the time of your arrest teaching school in Swiecie, Poland?\nA.During the previous time I had been a confessional teacher in the schools in Swiecie.\nQ.Will you tell the Tribunal what happened to you after your arrest?\nA.When I was arrested I was first kept in prison for two months and from there we were sent into a cloister and from there still other priests were assembled until about ninety priests had been assembled altogether, and from there we were sent to Stutthof near Danzig into the concentration camp which was located there.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1877, "page_number": "1467", "date": "04 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-04", "text": "And, from there on the fifth or ninth of February we were transferred to Sachsenhausen-Oranienburg which is located near Berlin. On the 13th of December 1940 we were transferred again to Dachau. I was confined in Dachau until the arrival of the Americans -- until we were liberated -- that was on the 29th of April 1945.\nQ.Were you a political prisoner in Dachau?\nA.Yes. I wore a rod insignia which all those who had been arrested for political reasons had to wear.\nQ.Did there come a time when you were experimented on the concentration camp at Dachau?\nA.Yes. Malaria experiments and also on one occasion we were engaged in high altitude experiments.\nQ.Did you say high altitude experiments, Doctor?\nA.No, I said aviation experiments.\nQ.And what do you mean by aviation experiments?\nA.Well, I have said it because we were dressed in aviator' uniforms and then we were put into containers full of water and ice.\"\nAnd then, if Your Honors please, we move over to page 878 of the original transcript, which is approximately 917 of the German; I believe, the fifth paragraph on the page -- the copy you have, Dr. Bergold. Going down there to the third question:\nQ.Will you now tell the Tribunal about this other experiment?\nA.During these malaria attacks on one occasion I was called by Dr. Prachtel and I was examined by a Polish physician, and Dr. Prachtel told me, \"If I have any use for you, I will call you.\"", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1878, "page_number": "1468", "date": "04 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-04", "text": "However, I did not know what was going to be done with me. Several days later, that was on the seventh of October, to 1942, a prisoner came and told me that I was/report to the hospital immediately. I thought that I was going to be examined at once, and I was taken through the malaria station to block 5 in Dachau, to the fourth floor of block 5. There-the so-called aviation room, the aviation experimental station was located there, and there was a fence, a wooden fence so that nobody could see what was inside, and I was led there, and there was a basin with water and ice which floated on the water. There were two tables, and there were two apparatus on there. Next to them there was a heap of clothing that consisted of uniforms, and Dr. Prachtel was there, two officers in Air Force uniforms. However, I do not know their names. Now I was told to undress. I undressed end I was examined. The physician then remarked that everything was in order. Now wires had been taped to my back, also in the lower rectum. Afterwards I had to wear my shirt, my drawers, but then afterwards I had to wear one of the uniforms which were lying there. Then I also had to wear a long pair of boots with cat's fur and one aviator's combination. And afterwards a tube was put around my neck and was filled with air. And afterwards the wires which had been connected with me -- they were connected to the apparatus, and then I was thrown in to the water. All of a sudden I became very cold, and I began to tremble. I immediately turned to those two men and asked them to pull me out of the water because I would be unable to stand it much longer. However, they told me laughingly, \"Well, this will only last a very short time.\" I sat in this water, and I hadand I was conscious for one hour and a half. I do not know exactly because I did not have a watch, but that is the approximate time I spent there.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1879, "page_number": "1469", "date": "04 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-04", "text": "\"During this time the temperature was lowered very slowly in the beginning and afterwards more rapidly. When I was thrown into the water my temperature was lowered very slowly in the beginning and afterwards more rapidly. When I was thrown into the water my temperature was 37.6. Then the temperature became lower. Then I only had 33 and then as low as 30, but then I already became somewhat unconscious and every fifteen minutes some blood was taken from my ear. After having sat in the water for about half an hour, I was offered a cigarette, which, however, I did not want to smoke. However, one of these men appreached and gave me the cigarette, and the nurse who stood near the basin continued to put this cigarette into my mouth and pulled it out again.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1880, "page_number": "1470", "date": "04 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-04", "text": "I managed to smoke about half of this cigarette. Later on I was given a little glass with Schnaps, and then I was asked how I was feeling. Somewhat later still I was given one cup of Grog. This Grog was not very hot. It was rather luke warm. I was freezing very much in this water. Now my feet were becoming as rigid as iron, and the same thing applied to my hands, and later on my breathing became very short. I once again began to tremble, and afterwards cold sweat appeared on my forehead. I felt as if I was just about to die, and then I was still asking them to pull me out because I could not stand this much longer.\n\"Then Dr. Prachtel came and he had a little bottle, and he gave me a few drops of some liquid out of this bottle, and I did not know anything about this liquid. It had a somewhat sweetish taste. Then I lost my consciousness. I do not know how much longer I remained in the water because I was unconscious. When I again regained consciousness, it was approximately between 8 and 8:30 in the evening. I was lying on a stretcher covered with blankets, and above me there was some kind of an appliance with lamps which were warming me.\n\"In the room there was only Dr. Prachtel and two prisoners. Then Dr. Prachtel asked me how I was feeling. Then I replied, 'First of all, I feel very exhausted, and furthermore I am also very hungry.' Dr. Prachtel had immediately ordered that I was to be given better food and that I was also to lie in bed. One prisoner raised me on the stretcher, and he took me under his arm and he led me through the corridor to his room. During this time he spoke to me, and he told me, 'Well, you do not know what you have even suffered.' And in the room the prisoner gave me half a bottle of milk, one piece of bread and some potatoes, but that came from his own rations. Later on he took me to the malaria station, block 3, and there I was put to bed, and the very same evening a Polish prisoner -- it was a physician, his first name was Dr. Adam, but I do not remember his other name -- he came on official orders.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1881, "page_number": "", "date": "04 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-04", "text": "He told me, Everything that has happened to you is a military secret. You are not to discuss it with anybody. If you fail to do so, you know what the consequences will be for you. You are 1470 a intelligent enough to know that.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1882, "page_number": "1471", "date": "04 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-04", "text": "Of course, I fully realized that I had to keep quiet about that.\n\"On one occasion I had discussed these experiences with one of my comrades. One of the nurses found out about this and he came to see me and he asked me if I was already tired of living because I was talking about such matters. But, in the way these experiments were conducted, I do not need to add anything to it.\nQ.How long was it before you recovered from the effects of these freezing experiments?\nA.It took a long time. I also have had several -- I have had a rather weak heart and I have also had severe headaches, and I also get cramps in my foot very often.\nQ.Do you still suffer from the effects of this experiment?\nA.I still have a weak heart. For example, I am unable to walk very quickly now, and I also have to sweat very much. Exactly these are the results, but in many cases I have had these afflictions ever since.\nQ.Were you in good physical condition before you were subject to the malaria and freezing experiments.\nA.Since the time of this starvation I weighed 57 kilograms in Dachau, When I came to the camp I weighed about one hundred kilograms. I lost about one-half of my weight. In the beginning, I was weighed, and I was inbed for about a week. And then my weight went down to 47 kilo.\nQ.How much do you weigh now?\nA.I cannot tell you exactly. I have not weighed myself lately, but I think at this time I weighed fifty-five kilograms.\nQ.Do you **** *** you were rewarmed in these freezing experiments?\nA.I was warmed with these lamps, but I heard later that people were rewarmed by women.\nQ.Do you know approximately how many inmates were subjected to the freezing experiments?\nA.I cannot tell you anything about this because it was kept so secret, and because I was in there quite individually and I was quite single During this experiment.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1883, "page_number": "", "date": "04 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-04", "text": "\"Q. Do you know whether anyone died as a result of this experiment?\n\"A. I cannot give you any information about that either. I have not seen anybody. But it was said in camp that quite a number of people died there during this experiment.\n\"Q. Do you know anything about the low-pressure experiments that were carried oat in Dachau?\n\"A. Only that I heard that such experiments were conducted out there with hermetically-sealed apparatus.\n\"Q. You have no personal Knowledge about these things?\n\"A. No. Nobody was admitted there. It was also kept very secret.\n\"Q. Now what about the dry freezing experiments?\n\"A. Also these experiments, however, during this time occurred out there; and it was also said that people were left lying, there in the frost and to freeze, but as I have already said, I have not seen it, but I have heard of it. But all of that is supposed to have done in the same Aviation Experimental Station.\"\nYour Honors, please, that concludes that part of the testi mony which we would like to submit. The other matters are not relevant. They have to do with facts on other issues, and that concludes the documents which we nave available at this time. We may have two witnesses later this afternoon; I am not sure. I haven't talked to them yet. They were supposed to arrive at one-thirty. They were not here when I came over to court, and although it will be taking them out of order, I thought, perhaps, it might save the Court's time in we did put them on now. As I say, I don't know that they are here. They are coming from some distance, and I haven't had an opportunity to find out since coming to court.\n***1472***", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1884, "page_number": "", "date": "04 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-04", "text": "THE PRESIDENT:Well, the members of the Tribunal will be a vailable for the rest of the afternoon, and the Tribunal will reconvene if your witnesses do become available.\nIf you will let us know, we will immediately reconvene.\n1472 a The witness for the Defense, Vorwald, is expected sometime today, and it is hoped he will be available to testify in the morning.", "speakers": [ "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1885, "page_number": "1473", "date": "04 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-04", "text": "Do you have some further documents, Dr. Bergold?\nDR. BERGOLD:Not at the present moment.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Are there some more in the process of translation?\nDR. BERGOLD:They are still being translated. There are some supplements. They will not take very long to read, ten or fifteen minutes, perhaps.", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1886, "page_number": "1474", "date": "04 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-04", "text": "I have had then in German for some time but the English translation hasn't reached me yet.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Mr. Denney, did you find out anything about the English translation of these documents?\nMR. DENNEY:No, sir. I didn't inquire about those.\nTHE PRESIDENT:I believe you said you were going to do that.\nMR. DENNEY:Well, if I did, Your Honor, I forgot. I will - the only thing I have asked about were Raeder, Neurath, Speer and this ...\nTHE PRESIDENT:Well, will you inquire about the English translations of the documents that Dr. Bergold refers to?\nMR. DENNEY:Yes, I will, Your Honor.\nTHE PRESIDENT:So that they can be introduced possibly tomorrow?\nMR. DENNEY:Yes, Your Honor, I shall.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The Court will not recess for the day, but it is simply pro tem, and we will reconvene any time you advise us that you are ready with the other witnesses. If that doesn't happen before five o'clock, we will assume that it won't happen thereafter.\nMR. DENNEY:Very well, Your Honor.\nDR. BERGOLD:I have a request to make, Your Honors. May I ask to give the defendant a copy of the record of the Central Planning Board meeting of 16 February? That is in connection with the big chart which was handed in.\nTHE PRESIDENT:In connection with what?\nDR. BERGOLD:With the trial of the 4.5 million workers.\nTHE PRESIDENT:You mean ...\nDR. BERGOLD:That chart contained pencil notes by the defendant. It is a photostatic copy, a great big document with pencilled notes by the defendant.\nMR. DENNEY:Are you referring to the document that we brought the original of down?\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes, that is the document.\nMR. DENNEY:I don't know what he wanted. I was thinking of a wall chart.", "speakers": [ "MR. DENNEY", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1887, "page_number": "1475", "date": "04 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-04", "text": "I don't have any wall chart or anything like that.\nDR. BERGOLD:No. No. No. No. It is a list of workers. It is a list of workers and the defendant made personal pencil notes on them.\nMR. DENNEY:Where Milch made notes in red pencil on them?\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes. Yes.\nMR. DENNEY:Well, we will be very glad to do anything that you want with it. What do you want, Doctor? Do you want me to get it for you?\nDR. BERGOLD:No. I want to submit the fifty-third meeting of the Central Planning Beard so that he can compare his notes with the record of the meeting of the Central Planning Beard.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Well, you want the original exhibit?\nDR. BERGOLD:No. No. It is a photostatic copy, sir.\nJUDGE MUSSMANO:Mr. Denney, does he refer to that chart which you introduced in the very early stages of your presentation of the slave labor case? The photostatic copy of the chart?\nMR. DENNEY:Yes.\nJUDGE MUSSMANO:All he desires is that you procure such a copy and let him have it.\nMR. DENNEY:Well, we gave him a copy of it. The trouble with the photostatic part is that the defendant's notes are in red pencil and red pencil doesn't photostat, if Your Honor please.\nDR. BERGOLD:This refers to the fifty-third meeting of the Central Planning Board, and that fifty-third meeting of the Central Planning Board, I have the stenographic report, and the defendant would like to read that record cf the fifty-third meeting in order to prepare his own interrogation, because on the basis of that conference he can explain the figures off that list.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Do you want the English translation?\nMR. DENNEY:No. No. No. No. He has the German right here.\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes.\nMR. DENNEY:All he has to do is give it to him.\nDR. BERGOLD:But I must have the Court's permission to give this document to the defendant Milch.", "speakers": [ "THE PRESIDENT", "JUDGE MUSSMANO", "DR. BERGOLD", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1888, "page_number": "1476", "date": "04 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-04", "text": "Lt. Garrett says I can't do it otherwise.\nMR. DENNEY:Certainly we have no objection to showing the defendant anything.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Well, regardless of what Lt. Garrett says, show the defendant anything that you have. Is that what you want?\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes. Yes.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Go ahead. Before I am subjected to another deep sea experiment, is there anything further?\nMR. DENNEY:If Your Honors please, we have nothing further at this time.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Well, we will retire to dry land and await your summoning\nTHE MARSHAL:This Tribunal is in recess until such time as they reconvene today.\n(A recess was taken.)", "speakers": [ "THE PRESIDENT", "THE MARSHAL", "DR. BERGOLD", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1889, "page_number": "1477", "date": "05 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-05", "text": "Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America, against Erhard Milch, defendant, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 5 March 1947, 1100, Justice Tems, presiding.\nTHE MARSHAL:Persons in the courtroom will please find their seats. The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal 2.\nMilitary Tribunal is now in session. God save the United States of America and his honorable Tribunal.\nThere will be order in the courtroom.\nDR. BERGOLD:May it please this Tribunal, first of all I would like to introduce my supplements to my Document Book Number 1.\nAs the first supplement I should like to introduce Exhibit Number 47. This is an excerpt from the Proclamation Number 2 of the Allied Control Council. This in itself is a legal clause which has been released by the Control Council for the German people, and therefore I would appreciate it if judicial notice be taken of it. I shall read that proclamation. This is Section VI, Paragraph 19, letter a.\n\"The German authorities will carry out, for the benefit of a he Unit id Nations, such measures of restitution, reinstatement, restoration, reparation, reconstruction, relief and rehabilitation as the Allied Representatives may prescribe. For these purposes the German authorities will effect or recure the surrender of transfer of such property, assets, rights, titles and interests, effect such deliveries and carry out such repair, building and construction work, whether in Germany or elsewhere, and will provide such transport, plant, equipment and materials of all kind, labor, personnel and specialists and other services, for use in Germany or elsewhere, as the Allied Representatives may direct.\"\nWhat can be seen from this decree I will show in my final plea. I shall prove that although the Hague Convention was also decreed here, that labor, on orders of the Allies, was put or had to be put at the disposal of the Allies outside of Germany by the Germans. I would like to introduce now Exhibit 48. This is an excerpt from the speech of Hermann Goering on 1 February 1943, at the Aviation Ministry speaking to the working class in Germany.", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1890, "page_number": "1478", "date": "05 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-05", "text": "\"Reich edition of the 'Frankfurter Zeitung' of 3 February 1943, 87th year, No. 61 to 62, page number 4\". I shall now read from the speech of the Reich Marshal.\n\"And now, my comrades, whether Field Marshal or raw recruit, I wish you all to weigh for a moment in your mind in what situation our Fuehrer was when, with the political instinct of a genius, he clearly recognized this deadly peril. Certainly, there were some weak-kneed people who said: the Union of Soviet Republics has three, four, five times as many armored vehicles, ten times as many airplanes as we have. The Union of Soviet Republics has just for the first time permitted German engineers to visit her arms factories. They are the biggest we can imagine. Therefore for Heaven's sake, do not touch her, do not irritate her. Such is always the attitude of cowards and it is not for nothing that the ostrich is called the Bird of Cowardice. And thus there were also at that time people in Germany who imitated the ostrich. That this burying-the-head-in-the-sand would me an the destruction of Germany, they did not want to see or hear.\"\nThe examination of the defendant will show that this passage here was addressed at the defendant, let us say. He was called a weakling.\nI shall now proceed to Exhibit Number 49. This is an excerpt from the decision of the people's Commissars Court of the USSR of 1-7-41, Number 1798 to 80406. This decree has already been introduced before the International Military Tribunal by the Russian delegation itself. It reads as follows: \"Decree about Prisoners of War. IV. Regulations about Work by Prisoners of War.\" I shall read now Paragraph 20.\n\"Prisoners of war of non-commissioned rank and private soldiers may be used for work in industry and agriculture in USSR inside and outside the Camp, in accordance with the special regulations which have been worked out by the \"... we have a few abbreviations here, and we probably don't know what they mean. They probably come from the chief of the prisoners of war and they have been worked out by him, \"Officers and prisoners of equal rank may only be used for work with this own consent.\"", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1891, "page_number": "1479", "date": "05 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-05", "text": "Now I shall read Paragraph 25. \"It is forbidden to utilize the manpower of the prisoners of war a) in the zone of hostilities, b) for personal needs of the administrative bodies, and for personal needs of other prisoners of war (as orderlies).\"\nThis, according to my opinion, shows that the Soviet Union permitted PW labor to the full extent, with one single restriction; namely that at the front. In other words, at the front and for personal use of the administration the prisoners could not be used. Apart from that in the Soviet Union in this war, after this regulation, there was no restriction whatso ever to employ the labor of PW's.\nI shall read as Milch Exhibit Number50, excerpts from the exhibit USA 57 which was introduced by the prosecution in IMT, Document Number 1760-PS, which is the affidavit of Mr. George S. Messersmith.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1892, "page_number": "1480", "date": "05 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-05", "text": "I shall read from Page 1:\n\"Gerorg S. Messersmith, being first duly sworn, deposes and says:\n\"Immediately after the access to power of the National Socialist Party in the beginning of 1933, all sorts of steps of an arbitrary character were taken by the new Government and by its various agencies and dependencies which affected the rights of American citizens and property and owing to my official position as Consul General my duty was primarily to protect American Citizens and their property.\"\nThe defendant, when he is a witness, will give further details to that effect.\nThen I should like to read further, Number 2: \"General Milch was not a Nazi before the Party came into power in 1933. He had been head of the Deutsche Luft Hansa, the principal German air-transportation company, which had lines all over Germany and to various parts of Europe and even the Far East. He was an extraordinarily capable man; and Goering brought him in as his principal assistant in the Air Ministry and raised him to the rank of General in order to carry through his determination to build up the German Air Force as rapidly as possible.\"\nThen another page: \"I recall specifically that General Milch was one of those who spoke frankly that these outrages in Austria were being directed by the Nazi Party, and expressed his concern with respect thereto and his disagreement with his definite policy of the Party.\"\nThen as the last exhibit, or as the last document, I should like to introduce as affidavit of the witness Richter. May it please your Honors, this man has already been examined here in this Court. However I did not know that he could make this statement; and therefore he was not asked about it. I have here an affidavit. I have learned that there was a similar case in Tribunal Number I where Tribunal Number I had decided that in spite of the examination of the witness an affidavit could still be brought in afterwards. On the assumption that such a ruling of the Tribunal Number I also applies to you, I should like to introduce this affidavit now; and I'll appreciate it if you could permit it.\nMR. DENNEY:If your Honors please, so far as the contents of the affidavit are concerned, I have no objection to their being admitted.", "speakers": [ "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1893, "page_number": "1481", "date": "05 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-05", "text": "However, in spite of the ruling of Tribunal Number I, I do think that this Tribunal and other tribunals should proceed with caution in allowing witnesses who come here to testify after having been cross examined, then to make and submit affidavits because, as your Honors certainly are aware, of a witness can come to the stand, fail to testify on a given subject, and not be cross examined on that subject for any one of a number of reasons and then be allowed to make an affidavit for the counsel who has called him as his witness, it seems to me that we are going a little bit far.\nAs I say, in this case I have no objection. I'll concede that Milch did this; and I see no reason to introduce the affidavit. I'll be very glad to make a concession on the record that Richter would say, if he were called, that Milch asked Goering not to appoint him, Milch, as Under Secretary of State or as State Secretary in the Air Ministry in 1933; and I also will concede that Richter, if recalled by Dr. Bergold, would testify that Milch sent in a resignation in 1937.\nWith these concessions, I submit that the affidavit is not necessary and hence inadmissible.\nTHE PRESIDENT:In view of the concession made on the record by Mr. Denney, the admission of this exhibit seems to be unnecessary. It is not to be considered that the admission, even without objection, of this testimony shall be a precedent for any future offers. In other words, this is not apolicy-making ruling in this Tribunal.\nDR. BERGOLD:May it please your Honors, then I am through with the introduction of my exhibits; and Mr. Denney may have my place now.\nMR. DENNEY:If it please your Honors, may the Marshal bring in the witness Roland Ferrier.\nTHE RESIDENT:The Marshal will bring the witness to the Courtroom.\nROLANDFERRIER, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:\nTHE PRESIDENT:Witness, you swear to speak without hate or fear; to say the truth, all the truth, and only the truth? Raise your hand and say, \"I swear it.\"", "speakers": [ "ROLAND", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "THE RESIDENT", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1894, "page_number": "1482", "date": "05 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-05", "text": "THE WITNESS:I swear.\nTHE PRESIDENT:You may be seated.\nDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. DENNEY:\nQWhat is your name?\nARoland Ferrier.\nQThat is spelledF-e-r-r-i-e-r?\nAYes.\nQWhen were you born?\nAThe 5th of July 1922.\nQWhere did you go to school?\nAAt Montrauban.\nQSpelled M-o-n-t-r-a-u-b-a-n?\nAYes, that is correct.\nQWhen did you finish your schooling?\nAI was not yet twenty years old when I finished school, about nineteen and a couple of months.\nQSo it was sometime in 1941?\nAYes, sir.\nQWhat did you do then?\nAAt that time I passed a contest and entered the banks.\nQWhat bank was that?\nA 20 Credit Lyonnais.\nQThat's spelled C-r-e-d-i-tL-y-o-n-n-a-i-s?\nAYes, that's correct.", "speakers": [ "THE WITNESS", "A", "THE PRESIDENT", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1895, "page_number": "1483", "date": "05 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-05", "text": "Q.How long did you work there?\nA.Six months.\nQ.And then what did you do?\nA.I was then mobilized to work at the Youths Organization, a short term, which was an organization which was a Youths workshop, which replaced the Army mobilization during the period of German occupation in France.\nQ.How long did you remain there?\nA.I stayed there from the 1st of July 1942 up to the 1st of March 1943.\nQ.And then what did you do?\nA.At that time I was released from the Youths Camp, I must add, where we took a few days longer than usual when we were retained, and we never knew why.\nQ.What did you do when you left the Youths Camp?\nA.At that time I was released, I went home and I started to work again, add then it was about the 8th or 9th of March, I figure it was about the 9th of March, and I received a composition which was brought to my place by the police according to which I had to come somewhere for a visit.\nQ.And this work where you were then was done at the bank?\nA.Yes, I started to work again at the bank.\nQ.What did you do at the bank?\nA.I was at that time under-chief---assistant chief of the Control Services of the Bank.\nQ.You did not make airplanes in your bank, did you?\nA.No, never.\nQ.You went to have this visit as a result of this summons which you had received?\nA.Yes, I did, because we had no precision whatsoever as to what kind of a visit that was to be.\nQ.What happened when you went for this examination?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1896, "page_number": "1484", "date": "05 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-05", "text": "A.At that time when we came to the barracks, we were when we came to make the visit brought into some barracks, and nobody told us anything about the visit, and we were kept there under the supervision of French police, or else of some corps of French policemen, or militia, but it was not the French militia, not really called as militia, but some police that had been created as part of the Vichy Regime.\nQ.Then what happened to you?\nA.At that time our parents were informed and they came along to bring us some clothing and food in order to enable us to take a train which was part of the transport to take us to some destination, and we had to leave during the evening.\nQ.How long were you on this train?\nA.We were then about five and one-half days on this train until we reached our destination. We stopped at Paris for one day in order to change trains, but on this occasion we were always under the control and the constant watch of the SS.\nQ.Then did your train go to the east?\nA.Yes, we passed then by Landau, Stuttgart, Nurnberg, Munich, Salzburg, and Vienna.\nQ.Were you guarded on that train?\nA.We were always guarded by -- while we were on the train by what we called Gendarmes, who were the German policemen. They were always armed.\nQ.How did you eat on that trip?\nA.We received at Landau one-hundred grams of bread, and a piece of wurst, which is a German kind of sausage, and it was at that time I first saw this kind of sausage, and we also received one sandwich for two of us at Nurnberg.\nQ.And that is all you received to eat?\nA.That is all we received to eat during the trip, but, of course, we had some food which we had brought along to keep us in the first week.\nQ.You mean the food your family had given you?\nA.Yes, of course.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1897, "page_number": "1485", "date": "05 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-05", "text": "QHow many people were in this train with you?\nAAbout twelve-hundred to twelve-hundred and fifty.\nQAnd in what kind of car did you ride?\nAThe old French cars.\nQWere there any sleeping cars?\nANo.\nQAny porters?\nANo, not during the first transport, anyhow.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:How many cars were in that train, Mr. Denney?\nMR. DENNEY:Sir?\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:How many cars were in that train?\nBY MR. DENNEY:\nQHow many cars were in that train?\nAI never counted them. I never saw this kind of a thing during the trip.\nQHow many people were in the car in which you were?\nAI could not say how many persons were actually in the car in which I travelled, but I can say that in our compartment which was a compartment for eight persons normally, we were eleven, and we had to put our suitcases outside in the corridor, and I know that people were standing in these corridors, too.\nQWhere did you leave the train?\nAThis train went as far as Strassow. Excuse me, I'll have to rectify that. We went to Vienna, and there we changed trains, and we then took another train, which was about in the same condition, and which must have probably brought other workers to Vienna, and this other train lead us to Strassow, which was about twenty-five to thirty miles from Vienna.", "speakers": [ "JUDGE MUSMANNO", "A", "MR. DENNEY", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1898, "page_number": "1486", "date": "05 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-05", "text": "QAnd you got to Strassow on approximately what day?\nAIt must have been at about the 17th or 18th of March.\nQAnd how long did you remain in Strassow?\nAAbout ten days.\nQWill you tell us and the Tribunal of the conditions that you had which prevailed in Strassow?\nAThe Strassow camp was a camp for Russian Political Deportees.As soon as we arrived at Strassow they put us into barracks, and we were about two-hundred to two-hundred fifty in the barracks. I must say that everybody tried to get some accommodations as well as he could, but I knew that our barracks was a barracks which was originally meant for forty persons, and we were at least two-hundred in this barracks.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1899, "page_number": "1487", "date": "05 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-05", "text": "Q.What did you sleep on in the barracks?\nA.These barracks had some wooden constructions - military beds, but of course, as we were 200 in a barrack meant for 40 persons, it was altogether impossible to properly use this kind of wooden beds. I personally had taken some tins and some junk and I slept on that kind of thing.\nQ.You slept on cans, did you?\nA.Yes.\nQ.And did they give you anything to clean the barracks with?\nA.No, never.\nA.How did you clean the barracks?\nA.With my feet or otherwise with my hands. Everybody did what he could.\nQ.How did you eat in Strassow?\nA.I must say that the food was simply disasterous, as soon as I came down there. We had to stand in a queue for sometimes eight hours, not only for food but also for roll calls, and that always was in the open air, and it was very cold down there. We had temperatures down to minus 28 degrees Centigrade.\nQ.How many times a day did you eat?\nA.It always depended on the number of persons who were in the camp at the moment, but I may say that we had food twice a day, but there were no regular hours for that. Of course, they used the simplest method. We got a piece of bread and a cup of hot water, that is they called coffee.\nQ.Do you recall sitting in barracks and looking out the windows?\nA.Yes.\nA.What did you see?\nA.I have to give one more precision with regard to the food because I would like to tell this to the Tribunal.\nQ.Go right ahead.\nA.When we had a regular number of prisoners in the camp, we had our Harvard beets, together with 50 grams of bread - red beets - but as soon as the number of persons in the camp increased, became too high, then they immediately dropped this and we did not get it.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1900, "page_number": "1488", "date": "05 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-05", "text": "Q.How many people were in the camp normally?\nA.The average was perhaps 3000.\nQ.You have mentioned Russians. Were there people of any other nationalities in the camp?\nA.Yes, Serbians, Croats, Czechoslovakians, and Poles. I think that was about all. Their number, of course, varied.\nQ.Now, to get back to what you could see when you were sitting in the barracks.\nA.Yes. The very day after we arrived, at sunrise, we were struck by the fact that we saw many Ukrainians going and coming, as we looked through the windows. These Ukrainians all carried stretchers and on these stretchers there was something. We could not quite see what it was. They came up to the barbed wire, somebody opened it, and they went through, and then they threw the contents of the stretcher into a hole, or whatever it was, and started making a prayer. We were at first very much puzzled as to what this meant. Afterwards we found out that these Ukrainians buried their own dead every day.\nQ.Do you recall something that was said to you by one of the guards when you protested about the food there?\nA.Yes. I remember that one day when we had been in a queue for four hours - I must say first of all that we had mostly old German policemen to guard us. Sometimes there were some young ones. On that day when we had been in the queue for four hours, I protested violently because we did not get any food and at that time one of these old German policemen came up to me and told me in pretty bad French that he had been a prisoner of war in France during the first World War and that he was going to make us pay for that.\nHis prediction proved to be quite correct. Somebody paid for it. It was not I, but one of the next days - the next day or the next but one there was a queue again and we were waiting and we did not get any food and the whole queue started to protest. I don't know whether these Germans got frightened or not but, anyhow, they started shooting into the crowd and six or seven - I don't know how many - of my comrades were shot.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1901, "page_number": "1489", "date": "05 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-05", "text": "I cannot say how many exactly because they never allowed us to find out correctly.\nQ.Was this camp guarded at all times?\nA.Yes, all the time.\nQ.And did the guards carry weapons?\nA.Yes, always.\nQ.And did you have barbed wire around there?\nA.Yes. This barbed wire was even electrified.\nQ.Now, up to this point, no one had asked you to sign a contract?\nA.No.\nQ.Now, you stayed at Strassow about ten days, which would take you to approximately the 27th or 28th of March, 1943?\nA.Yes, that is correct.\nQ.And then where did you go?\nA.I would like to give one more statement with regard to Strassow. May I?\nQ.You certainly may.\nA.While we were in Strassow, an epidemic of typhus broke out and we had an enormous number of sick. The dispensary did not accept most of the sick because they really had all the people who were almost dying and would not accept any more people. This dispensary was in pretty bad shape but I must admit that the factories into which we came later had better dispensaries. This particular dispensary at Strassow had only one or two nurses, who were not even sworn nurses. I do not know what they were, probably Czechoslovakian. I supposed that this typhus had been brought in by the Russian political deportees, who had been in this camp for much longer than we had.\nQ.Then you left late in March 1943, and you went to another camp?\nA.Yes, that is correct. I must add that when we left Strassow we got a stamp on our wrists. From that time onwards we always travelled with this stamp and this stamp meant the initials of the factory in which we were meant to work.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1902, "page_number": "1490", "date": "05 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-05", "text": "Q.And that stamp, just so the record will be clear, was just a rubber stamp, wasn't it?\nA.Yes, it was just a rubber stamp.\nQ.You don't have anything on your wrist now?\nA.No, that stayed only about a month and a half.\nQ.And then, what was the next camp to which you went after Strassow?\nA.Fishament.\nQ.That is spelled F-I-S-C-H-A-M-E-N-T?\nA. F-I-S-H-A-M-E-N-T.\nQ.Just like it sounds, no \"C\". How long did you stay there?\nA.Let me see. We stayed there for something like a fortnight, something like two weeks.\nQ.And were you guarded in Fishament?\nA.Yes, we always had the same kind of guards, the same kind of German police.\nQ.Did they carry weapons?\nA.Yes, always.\nQ.And were you inside barbed wire?\nA.Yes, exactly.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1903, "page_number": "1491", "date": "05 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-05", "text": "Q.And what kind of quarters did you have there?\nA.There we were in rooms lined with straw.\nQ.Just straw on the floor?\nA.Yes, only straw. That was all.\nQ.How many people were in the room?\nA.That, of course, depended as to whether these persons were good comrades or not, but I can say that in my room we had about twenty to twenty-five persons.\nQ.And all you had in the room was straw on the floor?\nA.That was all.\nQ.How big approximately, would you say that the room was?\nA.Approximately it would have been four to five meters long, three meters wide, and about two meters and twenty as height, and it is very simple. We all were very close to each other. As a matter of fact we touched each other.\nQ.How were you fed there?\nA.The food was a little better down there. Every day at noon we were brought to the factory where we got a dish of stangerit, and one hundred grams of bread, and in the evening we got another stangerit.\nQ.And what did they get for breakfast?\nA.Coffee, that was all. If we were not too numerous, if there were not too many of us, we got bread. It was always the same story, as soon as we got too many we wouldn't get it. That is, most of the time, the following procedure was adopted, we got our bread, one hundred or sometimes one hundred and fifty grams, in the morning, and then we would eat it whenever we pleased during the day.\nTHE PRESIDENT:I will have to say that I do not know what stangerit means. Could you initiate me into the mystery of that?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1904, "page_number": "1492", "date": "05 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-05", "text": "MR. DENNEY:It means sauerkraut, doesn't it?\nTHE WITNESS:It is not exactly what we would call sauerkraut. It is not exactly the dish I used to eat in Germany when I came there before, but it is mixed with potatoes.\nQ. (By Mr. Denney) Was there any meat in it?\nA.No. We got meat about once a week, which was either donkey made up as hamburger, or else dried horse flesh made up as hamburger. I remember that because that day we used to get noodles with it.\nQ.How many people, from the original 1200 that went with you from Montrauban to Strassow came with you from Strassow to Fishament?\nQ.I couldn't say the exact number because we were taken always by parts according to the roll call we had in the camp.\nQ.Well, do you have any idea?\nA.Well, maybe three hundred, two hundred and fifty to three hundred and upwards.\nQ.How many people were in Fishament altogether?\nA.That would be also rather difficult to say. Maybe there would be about two thousand, but persons came and left again, and besides that it would be rather difficult to count anyhow.\nQ.Did anyone get sick at Fishament because of the food or other causes?\nA.Yes, at Fishament there were quite a number of them, but I must add that when we came to Wiener Neustadt latter on. There were much less cases because at that time we still had some food that had been brought from France.\nQ.They didn't have any blankets for you in Fishament?\nA.Yes, we had one blanket each.\nQ.And how about Strassow?", "speakers": [ "THE WITNESS", "Q.", "A.", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1905, "page_number": "1493", "date": "05 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-05", "text": "ANo, at Strassow, we didn't have any.\nQJust the camp?\nAYes, that was all and what we had on us, what we had brought with us.\nQFrom Fishament where did you go?\nAAt Fishament before we left we had to fill in quite a number of forms, and that is why we had to stay about two weeks, and to queue all the time, and then he had another visit we had to go through, and then we were sent to Wiener Neustadt, and in this particular case I can even give positions as to the figure. There were about ninety of us in the same convoy, in the same transport.\nQAt Fishament did you lose weight?\nAYes, I lost twenty-four kilos. That is, I must say it wasn't at Fishament only, from the moment when I left until the first chance I got to weigh myself. That was at Wiener Neustadt, about ten days after we arrived. I had lost twenty-four kilos. That would be about forty days.\nQWhat had you done with the clothing that you had brought with you by the time you were ready to leave Fishament?\nAWell, at that time we didn't have any money any more so we had to start to sell something in order to pay, to buy some food on the black market, to have some marks for that.\nQThe Germans had not paid you up until this point, had they?\nANo, they had not.\nQBut they later began to pay you, didn't they?\nAThey started to pay us from the moment onward when we were in the apprenticeship, but I have to give a position, it wasn't quite correct that they had not paid us. They had given us two and a half marks at Fishament.\nQSo you had two and a half marks to take care of all your needs from the time you left France until sometime in March, until the time that you left Fishament, which is sometime late, or early in May?", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1906, "page_number": "1494", "date": "05 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-05", "text": "ANo, we had been permitted to exchange two and a half marks at Landau already.\nQSo, the two and a half marks at Landau and the two and a half marks you got at Fishament, five marks, was all you had by the time you got ready to go to Wiener Neustadt?\nAYes, that was all.\nQWere you in debt when you left Fishament?\nAYes, I was in debt. I had thirty marks, I owed thirty marks when I left Fishament, but after ten or twelve days in Wiener Neustadt, because the Germans did not pay us right away there either, it went after ten or twelve days I had already seventy-five to eighty marks which I owed to somebody.\nQWhen did you get to Wiener Neustadt?\nAIt was about the middle ofApril.\nQWill you tell the Tribunal about the conditions there, how long you worked? Tell them about how long you worked.\nAYes, but in that case I have to divide it in several periods, in several periods of time, because there were actually periods of time in which it was better and in which it was worse.\nQFirst, what did they make at Wiener Neustadt?\nAI was in a factory which belonged to Goering and which produced Messershmitt 109 airplanes.\nQNow, tell the Court, just in your own words, about what happened there all the time, what you did, how long you worked, how you ate, what you did to get your food, what you did to get your lodging, and how much the Germans paid you.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1907, "page_number": "1495", "date": "05 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-05", "text": "AYes, then I will have to tell about each period of time.\nQAll right, sir, tell it any way you want.\nAThe first period was the period of waiting. This is when we waited before we became apprentices. It lasted for about eight to ten days, and we were lodged in a big barrack for eighty persons, and always two of us together had a sort of a straw mat, but the barrack was subdivided and one end of the barrack served as a canteen at the same time.\nQDid you work during that period?\nANo, not during this first week.\nQWere you still guarded by people carrying weapons and inside of barbed wire?\nANo, we were not. There was no barbed wire around our barrack. The barrack was outside of the camp. It touched the camp, but during this first week we were forbidden to leave the barrack.\nQWell, then what happened after that?\nAIf I may call this barrack our first period of time, as far as food is concerned we used to have coffee, and 150 grams of bread, and in the evening either a dish of stangerit or Havard beets, and sometimes we would have soup in the evening. That would have been about once every third evening.\nQAnd then what happened in the next period?\nACould I give some more positions to that subject?\nQYes, you may.\nAIt was that period which was the most weakening for all our comrades. They were all feeling very weak, and we had departures to the dispensary of a rate of about 50%, from 50 to 60%. Then one day we were brought into the workshops where we had to serve our apprenticeship. In these workshops the tools were very complete. Everything was there, and we were standing in ranges of twelve, and there was a wooden arrangement for the whole workshop and we were always twelve in one range. For every range there was a supervisor who was at the same time the man who taught us how to work, but there were constantly police in the factory, and there for the first time we saw also guards who were members of the Hitler Youth.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1908, "page_number": "1496", "date": "05 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-05", "text": "QHow long did you stay there?\nAAbout a month, maybe a month and a half.\nQThen what did you do?\nAMay I give some more positions?\nQYes.\nAWell, I want to add that it was at that time that we first got our pay from the Germans, and that is after two weeks when we had served our apprenticeship for two weeks, we got the first marks which, if you want to call it that way, was our pay. But I must say that all this pay went away for the food, and I don't want to exaggerate but we had to pay for the tickets which we received for our food and also we had to pay our rent because we had received a better barrack, a higher barrack now which contained sixteen persons, and it would have been a barrack for eight to ten.\nNow, the food at that time would have been eighty to a hundred grams of potatoes and an additional fifty grams of bread and perhaps ten grams of noodles or something like that, and once in a while an egg. When we paid all this we wouldn't have anything left of our money.\nQDid they ever send any money to France for you?\nANo, I never could send any money to France. On the contrary I needed the money.\nQDidn't the Germans ever deposit money in the Credit Lyonnais at Montrauban for you to your account so that when you got back to France you had some money?\nANo, I have never known anything about that. No, I have to add that from whatever we received as a salary, and I mean now, not only when I was an apprentice but also later on when I had become what they used to call a skilled worker, that this salary was only a total salary, but in reality there were tax deductions.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1909, "page_number": "1497", "date": "05 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-05", "text": "First of all there was the ordinary tax. Then there was what they called the contribution for victory. Altogether there were three taxes, and we always received an account and the account showed that -- well, we would receive about the money we would actually receive wouldn't amount to but half or one-third of what was supposed to be our salary.\nQWhat was the top salary that you ever got in all the time you worked in Germany?\nAOne hundred to one hundred twenty marks per month, I think. No, maybe one hundred forty, something like one hundred forty marks. That was the highest salary I received.\nQAre we through with the period now of when you were in your apprenticeship?\nAYes, that is the termination period of my apprenticeship.\nQThen sometime in August, was it, or late in July that you started working in the factory as a laborer?\nANo, it was at the beginning of July.\nQBeginning of July. Well, tell the Court now how long you worked and how you ate and what you got paid -- perhaps before we start on this, this would be a convenient time for your Honors to adjourn.\nTHE PRESIDENT:This would seem to be the most significant part of the testimony and let us take it all together after the recess. Recess until 1:30.\nTHE MARSHAL:This Tribunal is in recess until 1330 hours.\n(A recess was taken until 1330 hours.)", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "A", "THE PRESIDENT", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1910, "page_number": "1498", "date": "05 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-05", "text": "AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1330 hours, 5 March 1947.)\nTHE MARSHAL:The Tribunal Number II is again in session.\n(ROLAND FERRIER - Resumed)\nDIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued)\nMR. DENNEY:May it please your Honors.\nBY MR. DENNEY:\nQ.Monsieur Ferrier, we had just reached the point in your testimony where around the middle of 1943 you had finished your apprenticeship.\nA.Yes.\nQ.Now, there are one or two points that I should like to bring out about the time when you were still at Fishamend. Did there come a time when you were there when you were presented with a paper which you were asked to sign?\nA.Yes, we had to sign several papers; and there was one especially important. We refused to sign all those papers. The fact that we refused to sign this important paper meant that we had to go for a day or a day and a half or even forty-eight hours -- I cannot quite recollect how long it was -- without any food for this period of time.\nQ.And the reason that you refused to sign this paper was that you couldn't understand it; it was in German? Is that right?\nA.Yes. There was one paper, however, which we signed. Some of our comrades with previous experience had told us that this was an unimportant paper; and it is actually true that it was not followed by any measures; and we never heard anything about it anymore.\nQ.But this paper which you signed was also in German?\nA.Yes, it was also in German.\nQ.They had no one there who translated the paper for you nor anyone who explained to you on behalf of the guards as to what the paper contained?\nA.I could not say that they were never translated because quite a number of papers were signed at Fishamend, and there were interpreters;", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "A.", "Q.", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1911, "page_number": "1499", "date": "05 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-05", "text": "but it so happened that in my own case and the case of some of my comrades who had been accused with me there was no interpreter around, and actually the papers were not translated.\nTHETRIBUNAL (JUDGE MUSMANNO): Did he know what the first paper contained, Mr. Denney?\nA.Well, there were papers which pertained to our birth certificate; other papers which pertained to the question as to whether we had any military service or not. And we were made to sign a paper containing the question of whether we had belonged to the Communist Party or not. Another question was whether we were Jewish or whether one of our ancestors had been Jewish.\nQ.Now, returning to the time when you completed your apprenticeship and you entered the ME-109 factory at Wiener Neustadt as an employee of your hosts in Germany, will you tell the Court the conditions what happened as you have told us about the prior periods?\nA.When we had finished our apprenticeship we were walked around in groups of fifty, sixty, or a hundred; and then someone came along. He was what they called the Meister, that is, the production manager of the workshop. He pointed out the persons he wanted to have for his workshop; and whoever was left over was chosen by the next man, until nobody was left.\nQ.Then what did you do after you were picked to go to work by one of these Meisters?\nA.When I was picked out this Meister, as production manager, brought me to his workshop and he confronted me with a French prisoner of war. He told the French prisoner of war in German what I was supposed to do; and then the French prisoner of war translated it to me and explained to me what I had to do, which actually was to make holes into one of the plugs, plugs for cars or airplanes with compressed air.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Plates?\nMR. DENNEY:Spark plugs, I believe.\nA.Spark plugs.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "THE PRESIDENT", "THE", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1912, "page_number": "1500", "date": "05 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-05", "text": "A.Well, it went on for eight or ten days and suddenly there they realized whenever I was working with the air pressure that I broke all these plug wires, and that the consumption of plug wires had doubled while I was there, so the first time this meister came along and told me to or explained to me how I should do the work, and then he came a second time and he did speak a little louder, and the third time he hit me over the head -- I am sorry, he hit me in the face, and then the fourth time he sent one of the Hitler youth to watch me, and then it became harder and harder. After sometime the following thing happened, a chief engineer named Has, which was the name of the engineer, who told me and asked me why I broke all of these wires, so I answered, it was not my profession, I did not know how to do it, and he then asked me what I would want to do, so I said, \"I would like to do exactly what I used to do in France.\" He got quite furious too and he hit me in the face, also, and then he called two of these guards, who were first lieutenants as they were called, and he had me sent to the Gestapo.\nQ.And then what happened?\nA.I was then led into a room which was prepared for this kind of receptions, and there they tried to make me say that I did sabotage, and then I did the work on purpose, and I cannot say exactly that I was tortured, but it was the same regime as they used in France, I was hit over the head, and they beat me, and they even used a wooden stick to hit me over the head. When I was led to the Gestapo I met a French nurse, I think she was a nurse, or something of that kind, well, I met her, and I said, it means, well, they got me --\"Bon pour la releve\"--they got me and they put me in the releve camp. It was a camp for people who came from France in order to relieve the French prisoners of war who were sent back to France, in releve camp; in reality however , these camps were filled with that kind of people because they were camps where workers were sent who had done some little sabotage, or had not worked properly, and in reality these camps were nothing else but camps for ploitical deportees. Well, when I said that to the nurse she must have gone and seen the director of the factory, and I must say that this director of the factory was the only man around there who 1500 -a man around there who was a friend of the Frenchmen, and he has done a lot for the French colony, and he has very often protected them inspite of the Gestapo and against the Gestapo.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1914, "page_number": "1501", "date": "05 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-05", "text": "I don't know whether it was actually the director of the factory, who intervened but anyhow the next day I was brought back to my camp, and I was put into a workship where I had to do a very hard work, and what was the worst, the situation was following: I worked at piece work and I was paid according to the number of pieces I produced. If I produced forty pieces, or not enough of them I would not have enough pay to buy my food. I must say that at that time, in July, the food situation in our camp had improved, and had improved considerably. However, it was altogether insufficient for the work-hours we had, which were ten, twelve and sometimes fourteen hours per day, and during these working hours we had only ten minutes rest at nine o'clock in the morning, twenty minutes at noon and ten minutes at four o'clock in the afternoon.\nIf I say the food situation had improved, that applies only to us who had become skilled workers, and who were capable of rendering considerable services to the German industry. Whoever was not capable of working permanently in an industry would not receive the same rations.\nQ.Did there come a time when people who for one reason or another failed properly to perform their work, and these people were sent away from the camp?\nA.Yes.\nTHE PRESIDENT:I am not getting it. It is not coming through.\nMR. DENNEY:Nobody is saying anything sir.\nTHE PRESIDENT:When he was saying something it did not come through then. Try again.\nTHE INTERPRETER:Can you hear now?\nMR. DENNEY:Excuse me.\nTHE PRESIDENT:It was fading out but it is all right now.\nMR. DENNEY:Excuse me sir.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "THE INTERPRETER", "A.", "THE PRESIDENT", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1915, "page_number": "1502", "date": "05 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-05", "text": "BY MR. DENNEY:\nQ.Will you tell the Tribunal what happened to those people who failed to do their work?\nA.Well, at that time I had not been sent to this kind of a camp when I was arrested by the Gestapo. However, in September they brought some of our comrades who came back from these camps. They could not tell us exactly where these camps were located because they had been brought there by night, or in closed cars, closed railway cars. They came back in very bad shape, looked pale, and with broken arms, and their faces were all crestfallen, and they were really in very bad shape, and they could have been -- they looked exactly as if they had been political prisoners who had been deported, and who had suffered incredible misery for six or twelve months. We had reports from the comrades who came back from these camps, that the camps were not guarded by the SS but by members of the Hitler Youths, and that was these members of the Hitler Youths who would torture them most, because they would play with these people like a cat with a mouse, that is a correct expression, and if please the Tribunal I would like to give some details as to the treatment to which these prisoners had been submitted to in these camps, but it is only from hearsay, from what I heard from my comrades.\nMR. DENNEY:If your Honor please, I think it is perfectly competent for him to tell what he was told by his comrades as to what happened to them when they were taken there.\nTHE PRESIDENT:We have had a good deal of that kind of evidence here, so I do not think that is any exception.\nMR. DENNEY:All right, Your Honor.", "speakers": [ "THE PRESIDENT", "Q.", "A.", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1916, "page_number": "1503", "date": "05 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-05", "text": "A.He told me the following. This was a boy from the town, and I don't know his name because we only knew him by his nickname. But he came back from that camp, and he told us, for instance, that they would make them run around the whole camp at ten o'clock during the night and they were all naked, and, besides that, he told me that, for instance, there would be fourteen in a barrack and that they would put down seven plates far away from them to that only the first seven would have any food and the others would get nothing.\nSome other time he told us they had been building a bridge over a river and that they deposited stones on the other side of the river. Incidentally, this almost led us to the conclusion that the camp was Weimar because there was a camp near Weimar, but we finally thought that this was too far away and that we had camps much nearer. While they were building that bridge there actually was a bridge already, but they did not make them cross this existing bridge but had put a wooden plank over the water, and, in order to have fun, they saw these prisoners fall into the water.\nI may add one last thing concerning these camps. Between ourselves we used to say that three months in a camp like that would mean death. Of course, these prisoners who came back from those camps had mainly tuberculosis or had broken limbs, or they were coughing and spitting blood, and all this, and in these cases where they could no longer be used there they would be released from the war armament factories and either sent back to France or used in other establishments as waiters.\nThat is all I can say with regard to the camp. I think that is sufficient.", "speakers": [ "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1917, "page_number": "", "date": "05 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-05", "text": "Q.Now, how long did you stay employed in this Messerschmitt Plant at Weiner Neustadt?\nA.Until I could go home. That is, 25 November 1943.\nQ.And did you ever see any Luftwaffe officers there?\nA.Yes, very often. I can even give an exact case, an individual case. Goering visited our factory three times, but the most important visit was the 1503-A beginning of July before the first bombing of the factory.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1918, "page_number": "1504", "date": "05 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-05", "text": "That was a gala visit with a lot of officers around, and Goering went through the plant and would question one or the other of the workers. We had been told that while Goering was there we had to go on working. At that time there were Czechoslovakians, Ukrainian, Jugoslavian and French and Belgian prisoners of war. At that time I was working there together with a French prisoner of war, and Goering asked us -- That is, he rather asked the French prisoner of war because he understood more German --He asked him, \"Well, How are things going?\" The prisoner of war was quite furious. That is he answered, \"They are not going at all\", so Goering told him that he had to be patient, that there was still work to be done.\nQ.And did you see other Luftwaffe officers there from time to time?\nA.They came quite often to hold conferences with the production managers, and the -- I cannot recall the names, but I am quite sure my comrades told me the names of the people at the time.\nQ.They had an arrangement in the factory about the Gestapo, I believe. Will you tell the Court something about that?\nA.Yes, that is correct. Well, here is what I know about that. Of course, there were certain persons in the factory who were anti-Nazi, or at least, not altogether Nazis, because, after all, this was in Austria.\nFor instance, the chief of the workshop, a Meister Beck -- his name was Beck -- he would often talk with me and also another boy, and when we talked we knew perfectly well what was the general arrangement of the factory. There was, for instance, in a workshop 100 workers, and there would be one engineer, one or two assistant engineers, and then there was the manager of the workshop --several managers of the workshops.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1919, "page_number": "", "date": "05 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-05", "text": "Every manager was watched by four or five guys who were from the Gestapo, but these guys themselves were watched by some other people who were from the Gestapo, and they did not know each other That is, the first guards, the first Gestapo people, did not know the ones by whom they were themselves supervised again. Therefore, we gained the impression that they were all 1504(a) scared one of the other.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1920, "page_number": "1505", "date": "05 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-05", "text": "When they were alone they used to speak quite freely with us, at least more freely, and as soon as there were two of them it was all \"Heil Hitler\", and we even thought they were scared -that the father would be scared of his son and vice versa, among close relations.\nQ.Do you recall that at later dates sometime during the latter half of 1943, prior to your return to France, other workers came in from France?\nA.Yes.\nQ.Did you have a chance to discuss with these workers the conditions under which they came?\nA.Yes.\nQ.Will you tell the Court what you learned from the workers who came in subsequent transports?\nA.Until the first of July no new workers from France arrived at our factory, and then we saw youngsters in the green uniforms of these youth camps which we talked about this morning, and they usually had been put into railroad cars right away, and it all depended on the chief of these youth camps because either they passed into the Maquis, that is, into the French resistance movement, and then, of course, they would lead their boys also into the resistance movement, or else if they depended on Vichy and belonged to the Vichy movement, then they would betray their comrades to the Germans.\nUntil that time the workers who arrived there were either 21, 22, maybe 25, but at the highest 28 years of age, and from that moment on ward they were either younger than 21 or older than 28 -- mostly older, and they usually had been caught in raids on movies, theatres, and so forth.\nQ.And did they tell you about attempts to escape that were made by their comrades while they were on their way to Germany or Austria?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1921, "page_number": "1506", "date": "05 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-05", "text": "A.Yes, there were attempts to escape and these attempts occurred much more often in the later convoys, in the later transports. First the transports were very full and then afterwards the number of people in the transports decreased, and then when these workers saw they were in a transport going to Germany or going to Austria they tried to escape, but the police, who always were in the train also, very often shot them, and we never had any news of those who were wounded. In some cases when they were brought back to the train they usually were disembarked or pushed out of the train in the next village, wherever the train stopped, and we don't know whether they were brought to the dispensary or what happened to them. Anyhow, I personally never had any news of these people.\nQ.Was the factory there bombed while you were there?\nA.Yes.\nQ.Will you tell the Court about that?\nA.Yes. The first bombing of the factory was on the 2nd of August, 1943. At that time planes from Syria flew over the factory and we were told at least that they had come from Syria and they were going to land in Tunisia. The factory was very poorly protected at that time because the Germans generally believed that Wiener Neustadt was out of range of the airfields, of the American airfields, that is, but we, of course, in France knew that the American bombers could bomb Wiener Neustadt, and therefore when we heard the sirens we wanted to escape. However, the police guard, the Verschluss, as they call it, of the factory, forced us to remain in the factory until the first bombing took place. That is, they forced us with a gun in their hand or a machine pistol. At that time the factory was very poorly protected, as I said before, because the Germans didn't think of a raid on their factory. There were no air raid shelters. The first air raid shelter was constructed much later on the 25th of November, 1943. The second air raid was on the 22nd of September, 1943. At that time the factory was already much more protected. They had brought actually very strong protection and they did so because many factories were in the area of Wiener Neustadt, namely, the Dornier factory, the Heinkel factory, and the Messerschmitt factory.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1922, "page_number": "1507", "date": "05 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-05", "text": "And at that time during this second raid sirens could be heard only three minutes before the raid actually started, end it was impossible to get out of the factory in such a short time because while we tried to get out we got nearer into the range of these planes, and the planes at that time were bombing from higher altitudes and their position was not so strong. After these two or three raids we were authorized to leave the factory when the raids started, when the sirens rang, but, of course, as we didn't want to go back to work we would in those cases go back to camp, and that is why during the two last raids I had to live down there, and also later on, as I heard from comrades who came back, the factory workers, foreign as well as German - I must add too that applied to the German workers too - factory workers were only authorized to leave the factory when the planes could be actually seen. Of course, it was impossible to leave the factory at that time because we were in the range, but this does not apply to the members of the Gestapo, at lease as far as my factory is concerned, I can say that these people all had bicycles and could get away in time. At that time we had quite a number of killed, and we were never authorized to attend the funerals. Only a few of the comrades would get permission to go into these rooms, these barracks where they had mixed the members of these dead, and they could pick out the members and put them together and put them into a coffin, and a few delegations then were authorized to assist in funerals, and they were buried in the cemetery of Wiener Neustadt which was nearby. This order had come first from the Chief Engineer Haas, which is the same chief engineer of whom I have talked already this morning. Then I would like to draw the attention of the high Tribunal to another factor which seems to me is very important, and that is the fact that the Germans wanted to force us to clear the ground around there of many unexploded bombs in order to enable them to put straw around them and to afterwards have them exploded. We, of course, refused to do this work, that is, to clear a way around these unexploded bombs, and the whole camp actually refused, and they thought it was some kind of revolt, so they had the whole camp surrounded by an SS, and the SS guarded the camp for more than a day.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1923, "page_number": "1508", "date": "05 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-05", "text": "At that time, as we still refused, they started cutting off our food supplies and we still refused. We would not give in. When they saw that we wouldn't give in, they sent Serbians or Croats to do the work.\nQ.You left Wiener Neustadt in November 1943?\nA.Yes.\nQ.And you returned then to France?\nA.Yes.\nQ.Did you take any money back to France with you?\nA.No. I even had to borrow one hundred marks from another of my comrades in order to pay - to buy my railway ticket to go back.\nQ.Had you ever had a contract of any kind so far as you know with the German government or with anybody?\nA.No, not that I know, but I must say I don't know exactly whether it was a contract or whether I signed a contract or I signed anything that could have been a contract. I think that I can add there that the workers who had actually signed a contract were workers who had left France before the masses of unskilled workers and were actually specialized workers.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1924, "page_number": "1509", "date": "05 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-05", "text": "QHow many people worked at the Messerschmitt 109 factory in Wiener Neustadt?\nA.Do you mean French workers or workers in general?\nQ.Everything, first.\nA.I was told that there were twenty thousand, twenty thousand at the Number 1 factory, and five thousand at the Number 2 factory.\nQ.And you have told the Court that among these were Frenchmen like yourself who were not prisoners of war, Frenchmen who were prisoners of war, Belgians who were prisoners of war, Croats, Serbs, Ukranians, Russians and what else, if you know?\nA.Poles and female Poles.\nQ.Were there any Dutch there?\nA.No, I don't know that there were any Dutch. I know that there were Dutch workers in another factory which also belonged to the Messerschmitt factories, but not in the factory where I worked.\nQ.And how did you eat generally, say for the last five months that you were there?\nA.Well, I may say that during the first of these five months the food was possible, but afterwards it became worse and worse. If it please the Tribunal, I would like to give some more details with regard to the health situation in the camp.\nQ.Yes, I am sure the Court would like to hear it.\nA.Well, during the first period in the first camp, this camp was in the factory itself and we were there together with Serbs and Croats. Then afterwards, but before the bombing of the factory, we had another camp which was about one hundred yards from the Heinkel factories and that meant that we had to go about three miles to our camp. During the first bombing when we still had these Serbs and Croats, the whole camp burned and ads their personal clothing and everything burned, and we had to bring them clothing afterwards.\nThe most dangerous for the health situation in the camp was the fact that people of all nationalities would be thrown into those camps and came through and came and went again. Sometimes there would be fifteen hundred, sometimes two thousand, sometimes three thousand -- one could not give exact figures.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1925, "page_number": "1510", "date": "05 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-05", "text": "In spite of this enormous number there were only four WC's and also there were only four stoves for the whole camp and sometimes when we could repair it there would be a fifth stove on which we could cook.\nIf I can express myself in that way, I and all my comrades were convinced that they had not put the camps far away from the factories in order to protect the workers from the air raids, but on the contrary they had put the camps near to the factories in order to protect the factories by the fact that the workers were near. That is all I could say with regard to the bombing. There might be other small details but I don't think they are valuable.\nMR. DENNEY:Are there any questions by your Honors?\nEXAMINATION BY THE PRESIDENT:\nQWitness, did you see prisoners of war working in the factory making parts for airplanes?\nAYes, they worked exactly in the same way we worked.\nQThey worked side by side with the workers who came from France?\nAYes.\nQDid you ever see any American or English prisoners of war at Wiener Neustadt?\nAYes, English prisoners of war.\nQWhat were they doing?\nAThey did not work. I didn't see them work. We saw them when they came to fetch food supplies, but I think they fetched them at the great Heinkel Factory. We saw a truck every morning. We met that truck when it passed by. The truck was full of English prisoners of war who probably went to that factory in order to fetch food supplies. We were very glad to meet them and to see them.\nQBut they didn't work in the factory?\nANot in my factory, not as far as I know.\nBY JUDGE MUSMANNO:\nQWhat nationality were the prisoners of war who worked?", "speakers": [ "A", "MR. DENNEY", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1926, "page_number": "1511", "date": "05 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-05", "text": "A.In the factory where I was?\nQ.Yes, well those that you saw.\nA.There were Frenchmen, Belgians, Russians and also after Italy had sided with the Allies there were Italians.\nQ.These were prisoners of war working in the factory in which you were employed?\nA.Yes, they were all prisoners cf war who belonged to some command. There were about three hundred of them, I mean French prisoners of war.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:Very well.\nBY JUDGE PHILLIPS:\nQ.What was your physical condition when you returned to France?\nA.I was very depressed, and I never succeeded in getting back my physical health, the physical health I had when I left France.\nQ.How much weight had you lost?\nA.Twenty-four kilogram, as I said to the Court, and I have been able to gain eight kilos again in the meantime; that's all.\nQ.Why were you sent back to France in November, 1943?\nA.I was not sent back to France. This was in connection with the possibilities cf leave which still existed at that time and I have forgotten to speak about that. When we were first brought to Germany we were told that unless we signed certain papers, these papers which were submitted to us, we could not have leave. As far as sending people back is concerned, only some sick prisoners were sent back and some people who were incapacitated for work or others who had been able to establish false sick certificates before they came over.\nWell, one day after the bombing, the air raid of 2 November, I had fallen seriously ill and I had been sick in bed for about four days at the dispensary, and the French doctor, prisoner of war doctor, who was at the factory gave me eight days of leave but I didn't come back after eight days I took twelve days. When I came back to the factory the German doctor, the factory doctor, female factory doctor, told me, \"Well, you have exceeded your leave by four days. You will have news from me.\"", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "JUDGE MUSMANNO" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1927, "page_number": "1512", "date": "05 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-05", "text": "Well, at that time I had received a certificate according to which my mother had a serious heart attack and was going to die, and I didn't know whether she was actually really sick or whether this was only a phoney certificate, but anyhow I got this certificate. Now, when somebody wanted to go on leave he would have to apply and get a confirmation, leave confirmation from the German engineer, and at that time the German engineer would not grant any such confirmation because there was too much work and you could not go to these labor offices, the offices of the Deutsche Arbeits Front, the German Labor Front, in order to get the other necessary papers unless you had this confirmation by the chief engineer.\nSo what I did was just steal one of these forms, these leave forms, and I filled it in myself and I had the signature of the German chief engineer forged by one of my comrades. With that payer I went very quickly to these German offices and got the other papers and got away.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1928, "page_number": "1513", "date": "05 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-05", "text": "THETRIBUNAL (JUDGE MUSMANNO): When was that?\nA.That was the 25th of November; and I arrived at home on the 29th of November.\nTHETRIBUNAL (JUDGE MUSMANNO: Of what year?\nA.Or, rather, I did that on the 24th; but I left on the 25th on leave.\nQ.You are a citizen of France, are you not?\nA.Yes, I am.\nMR. DENNEY:Your witness.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Dr. Bergold, we'll take the recess now.\nDR. BERGOLD:All right.\nTHE MARSHAL:This Tribunal will be in recess fifteen minutes.\n(A recess was taken.)", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "THE", "MR. DENNEY", "THE MARSHAL" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1929, "page_number": "1514", "date": "05 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-05", "text": "THE MARSHAL:The Tribunal No. 2 is again in session.\nBY DR. BERGOLD:\nQ.Witness, you told us that you came into a Youth's camp, is that correct?\nA.Yes, that is correct.\nQ.Do you know whether the French Victy Government had special decrees to that effect?\nA.Yes, certainly.\nQ.Was it the duty of every French citizen to take part in such a camp?\nA.Yes, exactly.\nQ.And after your release you resumed your work with the Credit Lyonnais, did you not?\nA.Yes, for five days.\nQ.And you told me that you were assistant-manager in this bank?\nA.No, not a subdirector. I was Assistant Control Chief, that is what I said.\nQ.Is that a high position, or is it in other words that of a simple bank clerk?\nA.You might say it was the second stage of qualified bank employees. That is, the first stage altogether -- that is, the first stage altogether would have been employees who were not qualified as bank employees yet; the second stage would be bank employees which had no high position but who were qualified, and my position as Assistant Control Chief might have been considered as the third stage in the employment in the bank.\nQ.In other words, you had several bank employees, or clerks under your supervision, is that correct?\nA.Yes, that is correct to be said, besides there were three of them who were under my supervision.\nQ.In that rather high position you had, did you ever know anything about these Vichy decrees?\nA.What kind of prescription are you referring to?", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "A.", "Q." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1930, "page_number": "1515", "date": "05 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-05", "text": "QIn a general prescription, if one is in a high position I suppose that somebody knows of the decrees and the laws of the government, I am sure?\nAWhat subject are you referring to, the Youth Camps, or agreements with Germany?\nQNo. I refer to the general decrees of the French Vichy Government.\nAI could only speak about the directives issued by the French Government pertaining to the agreements with Germany, or to the Youth Camps, because at that time the French Government would issue so many directives; I mean, after all we had a dictatorships down there, and the French Government would issue so many directives, that only a director or the assistant director of a bank or of a larger bank establishment, could have known all the directives issued by the government.\nQWell, in a position as a free Frenchman, do you know of directives, or did you know of directives concerning labor mobilization Rf the Vichy Government, particularly, concerning the draft labor?\nAYou can only speak of free Frenchmen with certain restrictions, because under the regime I lived at that time I never considered myself a free Frenchman; only after the liberation of France did I consider myself a free Frenchman in the proper sense of the word.\nWell, I can speak about these decrees insofar as I heard something about then when I was up in the mountains, because at my age group when they were drafted into these Youth Camps, we were sent high up into the mountains, and there we could only receive letters which had been our only source of information. The only other source of information we would have at that time were posters, and so far as I know these posters were posted up for the first time only after I had left with my convoy to Germany.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1931, "page_number": "", "date": "05 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-05", "text": "The only other information I received was during these four days when I worked in the bank again, after I came back.\nQWhat was the information you received in the bank again?\nAI must say that all these informations were only brought to us by public rumors, what we heard was that in the beginning only the professionals, that is, the specialized workers, or groups of specialized workers, 1515 a and where the artisans and workers in work shops were concerned; and later on we heard also that a certain category of the administration personnel would be concerned, the personnel of the state administration, and also that there wore received convocations for compulsory labor service.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1932, "page_number": "1516", "date": "05 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-05", "text": "But as I said we did not have it at all in detail, but all of this came only to us by public rumors.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1933, "page_number": "1517", "date": "05 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-05", "text": "Q.In other words, you wish to say that concerning a certain drafting for labor, you knew nothing about this thing that had been released by the French government?\nA.Yes, I said that for specialized workers, compulsory labor service had been established at that time.\nQ.In other words, when you were sent to the barracks, did you not learn of the fact that the compulsory labor for your age group had been ordered?\nA.We did not hear anything about that because at that time we thought that only specialized workers were concerned.\nQ.You dealt altogether with French authorities in these barracks; in other words, you only had dealing with them, did you not?\nA.Yes, we had contact with everybody. The only thing was that we could not act away from these barracks. Quite a number of people came to see us.\nQ.Did not you ask these French authorities why they were giving you an examination and why you could not be allowed to leave the barracks? Didn't you ask then that?\nA.All we heard was that this was an order issued by the Germans, and that, of course, we heard when we came to the townhall for the visit, and we even heard it from the French policeman when he brought us to the convocation. He said it was an order issued by the Germans. Of course, when we came to the caserne, to the barracks at that time we actually smelled a rat already, and we knew what was going on, but then it was too late. At that time I even tried to establish a contact with the resistance movement, but at that moment the resistance movement was not particularly well organized in the region where I used to live, and they were still pretty weak.\nIncidentally, they were pretty quick about sending us away because if they had kept me another day, as far as I am concerned, I would not be here today because I would have fund a means to stay in France and not to go to Germany. There were only a few persons who had been secretly informed by the French chief of police, the Prefect. Because they had been informed, they were able to form -- not exactly the first group of Maquisard of the French resistance movement -- but anyhow they were able to hide out in the farms or in the open country.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1934, "page_number": "1518", "date": "05 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-05", "text": "Q.You did not quite answer my question. I asked you if you ever asked your French authorities or inquired what it was all about explicitly. In other words, you said that y u inquired if this were a German order, but, of course, you could have a sked what the order is about in detail.\nA.But whom do you think we could have a sked? The only persons were the policemen, the French policemen, who brought our convocation, er else the doctor who examined us at the visit.\nI want to stress one point which seems particularly important to me. I have already said it. That is the fact that this was the first transport from the Southeast. At that transport, even the mayors had no details as to the orders that were given. They only had actual orders that we should be sent away, and it was actually the first of all these transports of the compulsory labor service. My comrades in later transports had quite different conditions because then the details of these decrees were already posted, but at my transport they were not.\nQ.Later on did you then find out that your transport was a transport on the basis of the compulsory labor service law of the Vichy government?\nA.We were informed of that when we arrived at Paris, exactly when we arrived in Paris. Of course, we had some unofficial knowledge before, but we were not actually notified. At that time when these measures were adopted at furst, it caused quite a stir. As a matter cf fact, it caused quite a revolt in the region, and all sorts of rumors were circulating with regard to this compulsory labor service. They even said that in cases where the children would not given these convoys, on these transports, there would be reprisals against the families, and even if at that time there were only rumors to that effect, actually later on these reprisals were actually carried out.\nIt is quite obvious that when we left we know that it was for compulsory labor service in Germany because when we left they had given us a little slip on which we were informed that we were leaving for compulsory labor service in Germany, but this slip we received only when we entered the train.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1935, "page_number": "1519", "date": "05 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-05", "text": "I must add, to give another detail, that we did not actually know whether we were leaving for Germany or whether we were going to Paris or somewhere else, because on this slip there was only a number, a figure, and the convoy, this transport, was split up into two groups. One of these groups went to Silesia, and the other one to Austria, bat on the slip we had only a number, a figure, and they did not want as to know whore we were actually going. When we arrived in Paris and later on they put as into a train which left from the East Station, well, then, of course, we knew that we were going to Germany.\nI might add that there were some of my comrades who succeeded in escaping when they knew that we were going to be transported to Germany.\nQ.You just said that your comrades who were taken later on were drafted under different conditions. What kind of terms were they?\nA.That was the following: After this first transport, there were actual convocations with details, and these people were frankly told that they wore to go to Germany after that. There still were some French policemen who were against the Nazis, against the Germans, and they came and told the people frankly, \"Listen, you have t go to Germany, so get out of here. Get away, and I'll tell them that I didn't find you at home today.\" But these orders were quite precise, quite detailed, and the person had to submit to the medical examination the next day. If he did not come in twenty four hours, then either the Gestapo or the French Militia, which was the French fascist police, would come and would take either a brother or a sister in his place or would exert reprisals against the family.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1936, "page_number": "", "date": "05 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-05", "text": "As the numbers of people leaving for Germany diminished, that is, the transports became weaker, the method adopted was quite different. Then the policemen came directly to fetch these people. They did not bring a convocation 1519a any longer, but they just fetched them at home in the morning.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1937, "page_number": "1520", "date": "05 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-05", "text": "The family would not know anything about what happened to them. Later on they started to pick up people at sport manifestations, at cinemas and theaters, by police raids.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1938, "page_number": "1521", "date": "05 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-05", "text": "Q.How do you know? At that time you were in Germany.\nA.Nell, of course I was in Germany. I was in Germany for ten months and while I was in Germany my comrades who arrived at that time told me what was happening in France, how they had been taken, and later on when I came back to France I also saw what was happening and the methods that were employed, and at that time I went into the underground, and in the underground movement it was my task to prevent that these people were taken.\nQ.You told us that you had two transports. The first one was for Austria and the other one for Silesia. Do you know through letters to what parts of Silesia these comrades of yours were sent?\nA.Yes, I can give you some details because I had received the address of one of my comrades by my parents. They had sent it to me at Wiener Neustadt, and this man was somewhere south of Cracow in the salt mine, maybe even further east, but somewhere in that direction, and he wrote to me at Wiener Neustadt and told me that I have been very lucky to have the number twenty-one, because he had number twenty-three and had been in the other convoy, in the other transport, and he told me that I was very lucky, because they all knew and all were told that our working conditions in Wiener Neustadt were much better than the conditions they had down there, and I today am quite in a position to judge that they actually were better because I am at the head of a workers association and I have studied the question.\nQ.You told us that you had food with you for eight days, is that correct?\nA.Yes, that is correct.\nQ.Did they tell you that you should take along food for eight days?\nA.No, not that I know, at least.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1939, "page_number": "1522", "date": "05 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-05", "text": "Q.Why then did you take along food for eight days exactly?\nA.If I may inform the counsel for defense that we in France, when we don't know where we are going on a trip and how long the trip will be, we always take some food for a certain period of time and we try to make it last as long as possible, and if I may add there, some of our comrades had taken only food for two days, and then, of course, we had to divide it up in order to make everybody subsist and live for the rest of the journey.\nQ.You told us about your transport. You said that a couple of your comrades, or quite a few of them escaped. They escaped while the trip was going on?\nA.Paris, these escapees escaped at Paris.\nQ.You told us before that those trying to escape were shot at, and were taken along on the same train and then released at the next station. Was that on your transport or on somebody else's transport?\nA.I told the Tribunal a while ago that these were people who had come from the youth camps and who had been transported, had been in convoys or transports after July.\nQ.In other words, it did not happen in your transport, did it?\nA.No, it did not happen during my transport, because nobody tried to leave.\nQ.You told us about Strassow. You declare that you spent the night on tin cans. How did you use those tin cans, did you use them as blankets or as a cushion or a pillow?\nA.No, we used them as a cushion for our head, and I told the Tribunal already that in Wiener Neustadt we just slept in the dirt that was on the ground. If we couldn't clear the dirt away otherwise we would make a hole and push it in there with our feet. One detail I would like to give at Strassow as far as plumbing and sanitation was concerned, only thirty people could shave there because there wasn't enough water, and there were fixed hours for the people to shave.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1940, "page_number": "1523", "date": "05 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-05", "text": "to shave because during the other hours with the exception of the hours for queuing for food and for the roll calls we were not allowed to circulate in certain alleys of the camp, and these were particularly the alleys we had to go through if we wanted to shave.\nQ.You told us that in Strassow there was a typhus epidemy. How many days prior to your departure did this typhus breakout?\nA.As it was the fourth day after I arrived, and as I told the Tribunal already that I had remained in Strassow ten days, that would have been six days before I left, five or six days.\nQ.Did you have typhus cases in your barracks?\nA.No, not in my own barracks, and besides that everybody in my barracks and all the clothes and underwear we had there had been passed through steam, through sort of a steam bath for disinfection.\nQ.Were you vaccinated?\nA.No, there was nobody there to undertake the vaccination.\nQ.I see. I shall come back to the beginning of your transport. Until Paris you were guarded by whom, by French policemen?\nA.Until we reached Vieconne we were only guarded by three or four people from the Gestapo, I suppose they were French Gestapo agents because they knew French, and some German policemen, and after Vieconne we were only guarded by German policemen.\nQ.Where is that Vieconne, where is that at?\nA.That was a demarcation line between occupied and unoccupied France.\nQ.At that time was that place you mentioned in the occupied or in the unoccupied zone of France?\nA.I must say that at that time there were several kinds of occupation. The demarcation line between the so-called unoccupied and occupied France still existed, and during the first year it had not been occupied at all, but, of course, during later on the Germans occupied all the coasts and also the borders of the Pyrenees, and we actually had Germans in this zone, but we might say that it was a second occupied zone which was less occupied than the proper occupied zone.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1941, "page_number": "1524", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "Q.Then, Strasshof, in other words, the place where you came from is in the so-called unoccupied zone?\nA.Yes, what you could have called the non-occupied zone.\nQ.When did the occupation rf the French Coast and the Pyrenees take place?\nA.That must have been between one and three months before I left for Germany, because at that time I was in the Youth Camp and at that time: that is, three months, perhaps three months before I left for Germany the occupation of this non-occupied zone took place.\nQ.Now I am coming back again. From Strasshof you went to Fishamend, didn't you?\nA.Yes, that is correct.\nA.And in Fishamend you received a meal, but I did not quite understand what kind of food it was. It was the so-called stangit or stangerit. Is that What we call in Germany -- I believe you have heard that expression before -- is that what we call a stow Einneitstepf.\nA.No, stangerit is exactly the German name. That's what the Germans called it. Yes, certainly.\nQ.Just a moment witness. I have never heard that expression before in my life.\nA.I am very sorry, but perhaps I imagined that. Perhaps it is Austrian dialect. I am glad to say I haven't seen all the parts of Germany but perhaps it's a part of this.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Can we stop this discussion by agreeing that stangerit is a dish?\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes, indeed, we can do that all right, your Honor.\nQ.Witness, then you arrived at Wiener Neustadt, and there you said-you mentioned before word by word -- we got to Wiener Neustadt and in the works of Neustadt which belonged to Goering.\nA.Yes, that is correct. At least, everybody said so.\nQ.Then you spoke about the food in Wiener Neustadt and you told us that you got coffee with 150 grams of bread in the morning, and in the evening that stangerit Didn't you get anything to eat at noon?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1942, "page_number": "1525", "date": "05 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-05", "text": "AYes, I told the Tribunal already that we received red beets, Harvard beets.\nQ.I see, well, the translation did not come through before that you did.\nAI specified that I had red beets for lunch. That was not exactly an advantage to have red beets, because we were far more sick afterwards.\nQ.Now, could you tell us, in that factory was there also a factorykitchen, for the German workers there?\nAI must specify that when I gave this description about the food I referred to the time when I was still in apprenticeship. At that time we did not eat together with the Germans. We started to eat together with the German workers only when I was in that workshop and that is when we were considered skilled labor, and then the food, as I said to the Tribunal this morning, the food improved.\nQ.Is that the food which you had together with the German workers?\nAYes, that's the food we got together with the German workers. But I must specify\nQ.That is not necessary. Do not specify.\nA.I would like to specify this question, to give some details.\nDR. BERGOLD:May it please this Tribunal, in Germany there wasn't too much to eat at that time anyway, not as much as in France or in America.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Well, that isn't the question. If the witness wishes to qualify his answer he may do so.\nA (Cont'd) I want to stress the point that after all, the workers the German worker who worked in that factory had really enough to eat and to oat quite good food because he received additional rations which were withdrawn from the rations of people who did not work in the armament factories.\nQWere there special allotments for workers who preformed on hard labor?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "Q", "A" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1943, "page_number": "1526", "date": "05 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-05", "text": "ANo, that was not specifically the additional ration for workers who had especially difficult tasks. We might say it otherwise, whoever worked in the armament factory, whether it was very heavy work or less heavy work, would receive three of four times as much to eat as somebody else who just did some work, who washed dishes or something like that. It was quite easy to call that additional rations, but, of course, everybody who worked in an Armament factory, even if his work was not heavy work, would receive those so-called additional rations, except, of course, for the French workers or Belgian and Serbian workers. Even the milk had been suppressed from some workers who had work as painters in the factory. They had been sick and they wouldn't receive any milk because the milk is the counter poison against the poisoning which is caused by this paint.\nQWitness, you mentioned before that you were paid 140 reichsmarks a month. Was that the gross or the net amount?\nAThat was -- at that time when I received 140 marks as a maximum, that was my net income, and I want to specify that I only received this maximum salary during the period of three months; that is, August, September and October, because in November I already left, and then I wouldn't get it any more.\nQThe so-called taxes had already been deducted from the amount of 140 marks, isn't that correct?\nAYes, of course.\nQYou spoke before of a victory tax. Is that the correct term to use? Or was it called an additional tax for war purposes and for incomes?\nAWell, of course I didn't know German and I couldn't read these columns I had in that account we received, but my comrades, that is, the German meister, this manager of the workshop always told me -- \"That, that is to win the war. \"I can not give any more details.\"\nEXAMINATION BY THE PRESIDENT:\nQWitness, you said that 140 marks was your net pay. Does that mean after the taxes had been taken out you had 140 marks left?", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1944, "page_number": "1527", "date": "05 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-05", "text": "A.Yes, the net. In that month I had 140 marks left and I actually get 140 marks, but I must add that this pay, this salary is the highest I have ever had during all the time I stayed in the factory, and as an explanation I may add that that was at the time when I had been punished by the Gestapo and after my arrest I had been put in that especially severe workshop where I had to work very hard, and it was piece work there and of course, was paid accordingly, and the pay was higher. And as I couldn't just stand around, and as I had to work anyhow, that is the reason why I received more money.\nQ.Well, had the cost of your and lodging been taken out before you got the 140 marks?\nA.No.\nQ.Then the 140 Marks was after taxes, but you still had to pay your living expenses from that?\nA.Yes, that is correct.\nQ.After you had paid your living expanses how much of the 140 marks did you have left?\nA.There wasn't much left because above all, whatever was left I used because I had some debts and I had to pay off what I owed.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1945, "page_number": "1528", "date": "05 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-05", "text": "DR. BERGOLD:May it please this Tribunal, this net amount of 140 marks was the normal income of a German worker in Germany.\nBY DR. BERGOLD:\nQWitness, you told us that you had refused to sign a slip that had been shown to you or a document which seemed very important?\nAYes.\nQHow did you know that that document or that paper was very important?\nAWell, we had no proper sources of information; but you know how that happens. The first person who went in would pass on the information to the next one; and some of us knew German. They would come and would say, \"Don't sign that.\" The word \"Verpflichtung,\" that is, tho word, \"labor obligation,\" came in; and then some people told us, \"Don't sign it because that is important.\"\nQIn other words, you believe that it was the contract, the working contract, you had there?\nAI couldn't say that because nothing afterwards made mo think that that was the labor contract.\nQYou just said that tho word \"obligation\" was in there and furthermore that people had told y u that this was a contract.\nANo. Of course, tho word \"obligation\" came in insofar as these people told us, \"If you sign that, that may put some obligation on you. You will sign for something; and that night be a sort of oath you have to swear.\" We were told all sorts of things at that time; but nobody told us that was a contract. It might have been; then again it might not have been. We didn't have any proof of it anyhow.\nQYou had interpreters in the camp, didn't you?\nAYes, of course we had interpreters; but those interpreters we saw once a day when they wanted to talk to us. Only after two weeks had passed that is, when the other convoys, the other transports arrived, then the first French interpreters wore authorized to talk to the prisoners.\nQDidn't you ever ask these interpreters what kind of a document this was; what kind of a paper it was?", "speakers": [ "A", "DR. BERGOLD", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1946, "page_number": "1529", "date": "05 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-05", "text": "A.There was a Croatian interpreter, and we asked him; but we had no confidence in that fellow. Besides, he snubbed us every time we talked to him and gave us uncivil answers. He would just answer yes or no. Besides that, if I have to talk frankly, all these interpreters had to be bribed. For instance, this interpreter wanted to be in the favor of the Germans obviously; and if yon wanted to get something out of all of these interpreters, you had to pay them on the black market. Of course there were German interpreters in t he camp; but we were considered so very unimportant that whenever a group of us or even several groups of us made a request to talk to some of these interpreters, then the chief of the camp would send us away with some beatings, or he would call us whatever names he could find.\nQ.You spoke of the fact that on the 25th November, 1943, you received some sort of a leave by some clever, and shrewd action?\nA.Yes.\nQ.From your camp or from this factory there, the Messerschmitt Works, did any French workers ever go on leave before?\nA.About half of those who were married.\nQ.I see. And these French workers, had they come before you had arrived or had they arrived at the sometime with you?\nA.Yes, there were some of those who had come before I had. Those were the specialized workers of whom I have already talked. There were about thirty-eight of them, thirty-six to thirty-eight; and we may add thirty more of this category which I mentioned this morning, people who had procured false, phoney certificates of somebody in their family who was ill. They had procured those certificates before they ever came over. Of course, there were some others, perhaps fifteen or twenty-- I couldn't indicate an exact figure--who had bribed the chief engineer or somebody at the Labor Office or somebody at the Labor Front or somebody else. They left because they had secretly received either money or some object of value from home or else they had sold their watches and bribed these people with the proceeds of the sale.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1947, "page_number": "1530", "date": "05 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-05", "text": "QWitness, you said that you had eight days' leave and that you took twelve days' leave. Now, where did you spend these eight days of sick leave?\nAIn the camp. I had to collect wood in tho nearby forest in order to keep myself warm.\nQWhere did you collect that wood? Outside of the camp or --?\nAYes, outside of the camp. Yes, but wait a minute. Of course I had to leave the camp secretly. I just crept through some hole in the barbed wire. I had to be very careful about it, too, because if somebody encountered you in the camp while you were not at work, then it was the Gestapo right away, questioning, and disciplinary action. They sent you to some harder work or they took away your food or anything of that kind.\nQWitness, this morning upon a question of one of the judges, I believe you said that the barracks were outside of the camp and it was not surrounded by barbed wire.\nAIf you want to know exactly what I said this morning, I said that in the first barrack before we were at the apprenticeship, we were outside of the camp and there was no barbed wire around. But that camp burned; and afterwards we were brought to a camp near the Heinkel factory. That is exactly what I said this morning.\nQOh, I see. What you said right now refers to the camp hear tho Heinkel factory, the one with the barbed wire? Is that correct?\nAYes, I was there; and that was at the end of my stay.\nQWhen did you get to that camp near the Heinkel works?\nAThat was about ten or twelve days before the air raid of the 12th of August.\nQPrior to that you spent all these months without barbed wire around you; is that right?\nANo. I want to give you some more details again. Before we were brought into apprenticeship, we were in this barracks, this one barrack; but that was only for eight or ten days. Then we came in to the first camp, which was a hundred yards away from our own factory and where we were with Serbs, Croates, and so forth, as I said, before this camp burned. Then afterwards we came in to the camp which was near the Heinkel factory, which was also surrounded by barbed wire.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1948, "page_number": "1531", "date": "05 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-05", "text": "QWas that camp, the first camp that burned down, surrounded with barbed wire as well?\nAYes. There were six ranges of barbed wire.\nQYou had no freedom whatsoever to leave the camp and to go to town, did you?\nAYes, once we were at the apprenticeship, but only outside of the working hours and in the evening until 10:00 o'clock.\nQNow, you don't quite understand my question. I'm not talking about the rest of the time. I'm talking about the moment after you became a regular worker at the factory. Could you then leave the camp outside of working hours? Could you, for instance, in order to go to town to make certain purchases there or for other reasons?\nA.Yes, of course, until 10:00 o'clock in the evening.", "speakers": [ "A", "A.", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1949, "page_number": "1532", "date": "05 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-05", "text": "Q.When you went to town you were not guarded, were you?\nA.No, generally there Was no guards when we went to town, but I may add that first of all we were far too tired to go to town, that therefore we went very rarely, and besides that we had no money to buy anything, anyhow.\nQ.That is a different natter altogether. Theoretically, you did have the possibility to go to town?\nA.Yes, theoretically.\nQ.You said before concerning the supervision by the Gestapo, in that instance, did you talk with the civilian population outside of the factory concerning the surveying you had? Did you ever talk to young girls after all you were still a young man.\nA. First of all I may tell you we could not talk with any girls because first of all for a girl it meant five years of imprisonment, and for us it was that famous disciplinary camp, but besides that I actually talked with civilians, and especially with the Green Grocer, and there was an old lady there, and she always used to ask, \"my God, my God, was there again somebody in your camp today who had been punished.\" Otherwise, we had only the right to talk to persons in the workshop during the working hours.\nQ.Witness, your statement which you made now, is certainly not accurate. Isn't it correct that speaking with girls was always forbidden to French prisoners of war. I know the German laws, and I defended quite a few people because they had spoken to prisoners of war, and you were not a prisoner of war, is that correct?\nA.May I call the attention of the counsel for the defense to the fact that I have sworn sometime ago that I am going to say the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, that I am a Frenchman, and that I shall stick to that oath and if I do say something here in court it is because I am convinced in what I do say because other persons have told me that.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1950, "page_number": "1533", "date": "05 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-05", "text": "Besides that, we were always told that at the factory, if you talk to a German girl, then she will be punished and you will be sent away.\nQ.Who told you that, witness?\nA.Well, that was one of the first things that the manager of the workshop or the meister told us. He made a lot of recommendations and one of the things he told us was precisely this question, not only he, but also the foreman and when ho came to the factory, the chief of engineers would tell us the same thing. Besides that, if you want details, there was one of my comrades, a Frenchman from Saint Amand, in the Province of Chere; he had got into the habit of making his purchases together with a young German girl, and after sometime we never saw her again, and ho had two weeks of prison.\nDR. BERGOLD:Your Honor, I wish to show by counter evidence that there is quite a number of people who will testify against that.\nTHE PRESIDENT:It is not important enough to bring testimony in to refute that.\nDR. BERGOLD:May it please the Tribunal, I am of the opinion that if this witness tells this kind of story, or these kind of stories, that I must have the right to show that the statement made by the witness is not quite correct, and that there might even bo an exaggeration. I must have this right. I always agree -- I only agreed to the examination of the witness if the Prosecution permits me to bring more decisions after the first closing of the case, and that I myself must bring more evidence; the Tribunal has informed me I could bring in such evidence to refute the statement made here by the witness.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1951, "page_number": "1534", "date": "05 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-05", "text": "THE PRESIDENT:That is quite true. You can impeach any witness but it must be on some important and/or material point, and not on some trivial point. Suppose, for example, the witness had said that he had left Paris at three o'clock in the afternoon, and that you wanted to bring fifty witnesses to say it was ten minutes after three, and it does not make any difference what time he did leave Paris. In other words, if you are going to impeach the witness to show he is not telling the truth, it must be with reference to some important or essential question in the case, and not on collateral or trivial points, otherwise, we could spread the questions out for months and months.\nMR. DENNEY:If Your Honor please, this witness would be a rebuttal witness, and we only called him at this time to try to facilitate the proceedings, and. certainly Dr. Bergold entertains no idea that after we have rebuttal witnesses, he can again call witnesses to refute what they said. Ye proved through documents which were submitted that foreigners were brought forcibly into Germany, statements by this defendant made at meetings where he was present. A long parade of witnesses has come up, they come up here and testify to the excellent conditions that existed, that meals could be eaten off the floor, in answer to a question by His Honor Judge Musmanno, and by other witnesses that nothing ever happened; then this witness was brought, and we will produce another one who will testify to what did happen there. This is part of our case in reputtal, but if Dr. Bergold thinks he can parade another long queue in here to again substantiate what he is trying to make out from some of the witnesses who have been produced, I submit that is ridiculous.", "speakers": [ "MR. DENNEY", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1952, "page_number": "1535", "date": "05 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-05", "text": "THE PRESIDENT:Well, we will meet the situation when it arises, Mr. Denney. It has not arisen as yet.\nDR. BERGOLD:May it please this Tribunal. I must submit the sharpest objections to Mr. Denney's statement. Mr. Denney brings one single witness, perhaps even two witnesses in here, and, Your Honors, in Germany this is called a diabolical introduction of evidence, and it is very easy in such an enormous organization to find certain discrepancies and even three or four witnesses cannot give the general picture of the situation. I myself, for instance, could tell you that my own son, who was a prisoner in France, was hearten by the Frenchmen until he bled. I could tell you in his transport comrades of his were killed, stoned, and killed by other means. Those are a few examples and a few excesses which cannot be generalized, and I am not the person to say that General De Gaulle is to be blamed for this. I know that if millions of people are working against each other certain excessive actions will occur; that among the millions of people there are always people who ere bad. That cannot be avoided. I could also tell of several other instances; however, if such witnesses are brought in, I must be given the opportunity to explain or to rebut these witnesses with other witnesses, in order to prove that this was not the general condition which prevailed there.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The thing you want to do is to bring in witnesses to prove that it was no offense for him to talk to fraeuleins in the camp. With that we are not concerned or interested. A witness testifying as to living conditions, cruelties, and mistreatment is another thing; that is different; but you were talking about, and the first thing that brought this all up here was your statement that you would bring in hundreds of witnesses to show that he was allowed to talk to fraeuleins.", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1953, "page_number": "1536", "date": "05 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-05", "text": "DR. BERGOLD:Yes, but may it please Your Honor, I am of the opinion that the witness's statement is not quite correct, and when I have to be able to prove that with regard to a point which he must know, or he should know that he did not make a correct statement of.\nTHE PRESIDENT:This is right from where we started. It is where we came in. All right, let's go ahead now - I mean, let's stop now and resume court tomorrow morning at 9.30 o'clock. The session will be heard in the regular court room, No. 581.\nTHE MARSHALL:This Tribunal is in recess until 0930 tomorrow morning in Courtroom No II, in room 581.\n(Thereupon adjournment was taken to 0930 hours, 6 March 1947.)", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHALL", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1954, "page_number": "1537", "date": "06 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-06", "text": "Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the Matter of the United States of America against Erhard Milch, defendant, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 6 March 1947, 0945-1630 hours, Justice Toms presiding.\nTHE MARSHAL:Persons in the courtroom will please find their seats.\nThe Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal II.\nMilitary Tribunal II is now in session. God save the United States of America and this honorable Tribunal.\nThere will be order in the Court.\nROLAND FERRIER - - Continued CROSS EXAMINATION - - Resumed BY DR. BERGOLD:\nQWitness, you told us yesterday that you had been in a camp near this factory near Wiener Neustadt. When did you go into the camp?\nAWhat camp are you speaking of, the camp where I went when I left Fishament?\nQWhere you started as an expert worker.\nAThe first camp that I came into when I was a skilled worker was the camp which was about a hundred yards from the factory. I stayed in this camp for seven to eight days, and afterwards the camp burned.\nQDo you know when the other camp was built? I mean the one near the Henke-Works, to which you came later.\nAWe already had some knowledge of the existence of this camp before we got into the camp itself. We knew about it even when we arrived at WienerNeustadt. The Serbs and Croates had told us that such a camp existed, but, of course, we had no formal knowledge of it. We only knew about it when we actually came there, and they told us that the camp was about four to five miles from where our camp, the camp in which we were located at that time, was situated.\nQI infer now that this camp already existed before the first air raid.\nAYes, it existed already at that time. Besides that, this camp was under construction and was being enlarged all the time while I was down there.\nQYou told us yesterday that the Germans from Wieder-Neustadt did not believe that these factories could be attacked by the American Airforce because they were outside the range of the Airforces.", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1955, "page_number": "1538", "date": "06 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-06", "text": "AYes, that is exact.\nQWitness, then I do not quite understand how you came to the conclusion which you made before this Tribunal yesterday. You said to this Tribunal yesterday that you were of the opinion that these camps were so close to the factories in order to protect the factories. If the camps already existed before the first attack, and if, in your opinion, the Germans thought that the factories would not be attacked, then how can you come to the conclusion that the camps, in spite of that fact, were erected there in order to protect the factories. Did anybody tell you that, or is that of your own thoughts?\nAWell, I can explain that very easily. It is true that I said that the Germans in Wiener-Neustadt did not think that the American planes could attack the factories, but I am utterly convinced that the chiefs of the factories and the political chiefs in that region were perfectly aware of the fact that American planes could attack the factory and they took these measures.\nBesides that, it is quite clear from the fact that after the first air raid also, and when this first camp in which I was had burned, the Germans continued to construct all the other camps around these factories.\nQWitness, you say that you are certain about it. You are convinced. Did you ever speak with one of these gentlemen, or is this just an assumption of yours?\nQOf course, I have not discussed the matter with any of the political chiefs. They would never have dared to talk with me about these things, but, first of all, we-- I and my comrades-- we reached that conclusion when we discussed the matter. Moreover, I very often discussed it with some of our German workshop managers, and they who in the beginning were strongly convinced Na zis, they themselves told me that in the first bombing, the first air raid at least, the lack of protection was the fault of the political chiefs because they could have certainly foreseen the fact that these plants could be attacked by American planes.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1956, "page_number": "1539", "date": "06 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-06", "text": "QThose, also, are assumptions of these meisters. Those are all assumptions that you are presenting to us. I want you to tell us facts. What are the names of those meisters?\nAFirst of all, there is Meister Beck, who was the workshop manager and who was my direct boss, and then there was an assistant workshop manager by the name of Berger. I cannot recall the name of the third.\nIt is quite obvious that we could only talk to our own factory managers, to our own workshop managers, because they were the only ones to confide in us, and they know that we would not go to the Gestapo and denounce them, but when we returned to our barracks later on we would always meet some comrades who would tell us that, \"My workshop manager says the same thing,\" or, \"He says this or that.\" It is quite obvious that we could not talk with any of the real bosses because we were considered second class people and even animals by these people, and they would never have come down to talk to us. It was below their dignity.\nQ.Witness, you told us yesterday that the manager had saved you from the Gestapo. You stated that he was very nice to you. Is that correct?\nAIt is not correct. I said only that I supposed that he was the man who saved me, because he was the only man who did not have too great a hatred for the Frenchmen. It might have been he, but I cannot know that.\nBesides that, I can tell you frankly that I did not know him at all. I know only from some of the French interpreters whom we had later on that he was the only man with whom you could talk and who was not too bad, as they say.\nQMeister Beck whom you just mentioned, is that the man whom told you something about the Gestapo surveillance?\nAYes, that is the same meister. Besides, he even saved me once because when the Italians came it was strictly prohibited for us to talk to them. Once an Italian worker passed and talked to me, and this Gestapo supervisor wanted to turn me in and have me put in prison, but Meister Beck defended me by saying that I was a worker whom he needed.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q.", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1957, "page_number": "1540", "date": "06 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-06", "text": "QWho was that Gestapo supervisor?\nAI could describe him very well, but I am afraid I don't know his name.\nQHow many Gestapo supervisors did you notice in the factory?\nAPersonally I have seen four of them. In our work shop, in our own workshop I must say I know only definitely, definitely I know only about three myself, but there was a fourth one who had been pointed out to me by the Germans, that is by Meister Beck and the Deputy Meister Berger too. As the Germans said, I suppose he was one of the Gestapo men also, but I am not perfectly sure of that.\nQHow many men were there in your work shop? What was the total number of Germans employed there?\nAThat changed a lot.At the beginning there wore forty, and it went up to two hundred at a certain time.\nQDo you know to which political party this Mr. Beck belonged to, did he ever tell you he was a Communist or something like that?\nANot him personally.As far as Beck is concerned he told me only that he had witnessed a lot of atrocities when the Anschluss took place, and he told me about some other persons, but I don't think that he personally was a Communist.\nQI see. What clothes, what kind of clothes were these Gestapo men wearing?\nAThey were in plain clothes.\nQHow could you recognize the fact that they were Gestapo Agents then?\nAThat was very easy to see because the Germans, even those who were not very friendly with us, used to say when one of these guys came along, \"Be careful. That is one of the Gestapo.\" They wouldn't dare to speak even between themselves as soon as one of them was around.\nQTell me, witness, how many foreign workers were there at this factory, because you have told us yesterday that the total number of the workers in the factory was approximately twenty thousand, the total number, I mean, including everybody. How many of them were foreign laborers?\nAI am afraid I couldn't give you exact figures, but I can say there were three hundred French prisoners of war, one hundred Belgian or Russian prisoners of war, seven hundred of our French civilian workers, fifteen hundred Croats and Serbians, and I can't give you the figures of the Czechoslovakians, Ukrainians or even of Italian workers we had.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1958, "page_number": "1541", "date": "06 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-06", "text": "QThese foreign laborers, were they all there at these camps?\nAYes, I think so. That is, I certainly think so, because these workers after the first air raid at least were lodged in the camps because they used to be in a church and then the barracks, and then they were put out of these places, and they put airplane motors in there.\nQWere there also Czech workers in the camp?\nYes, we had also Czechoslovakian workers in our camps and also women, most of all women.\nQYou mentioned yesterday the fact that Dutch workers had been in a different factory. Which factory was it?\nAAs far as I know that was at Regensburg, because I remember that when the bombing took place, the air raid on Regensburg and when destruction took place down there they had to send some people away to make place. They sent some to our factories too, and these people used to tell the Belgian workers, \"Down there at Regensburg we have Belgian workers too, and also Dutch workers.\"\nQYou mentioned the fact that you worked and you made holes in a pipe. Would you describe your work? Would you describe your work a little bit more precisely, the one where you had so much trouble?\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:Dr. Bergold, there would be no intention on the part of the Tribunal to curtail you in any way in the fullest cross-examination of this witness on matters which are relevant and which you believe in the further elucidation of will help the cause of your client, but it escapes me how going into the greatest minutia on the type of holes he made in these pieces of metal is going to help you or the Tribunal or anyone in the disposition of the issue which we have before us to determine. Can you indicate why it is necessary to spend time now on hearing the sizes of the holes, the depth of them and so forth?\nDR.BERGOLD:Yes, your Honor. Excuse me, but as Hr. Denney cross-examined him, he follows as we call it in Germany the cat around the cake, and in order to direct the witness to a point at which he will make assertions, where he will make a certain statement, that is the art of the cross-examination, the way I learned it from the Americans. With this question I had a purpose and I was following a purpose.", "speakers": [ "JUDGE MUSMANNO", "A", "DR.BERGOLD", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1959, "page_number": "1542", "date": "06 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-06", "text": "If I have to tell you the purpose of the question then, of course, I might as well renounce the question, because this witness has a certain definite line to follow, and I am sure this Tribunal will also recognize this line he is following, this tendency, and that is why I can't ask him the question directly. If I have to explain it to him or I have to explain it to the Tribunal, then I might as well renounce the question. Then I think I am restricted.\nJUDGE MUSSMANO:Very well. If the size of this hole, if it leads to some other bigger thing that you believe is relevant, you may proceed.\nAI draw the attention of counsel for defense to the fact that if I am to describe the work I did there and the type of work all in detail, we probably will be at the same point at noon and perhaps later.\nQ (By Dr. Bergold) Witness, in any case, the work which you had to do was a very easy one, wasn't it?\nAWell, it all depends on what you call easy. I mean, it was not easy for us who had no knowledge at all of that work, that kind of work, and the best proof, I didn't succeed in getting the work done in the deadline the Germans gave me, and that is why I was brought to the Gestapo, and also because I also broke those famous wires, and it couldn't have been bad will, because there was always somebody behind me to beat me or to stir me up if I didn't do the work properly.", "speakers": [ "A", "JUDGE MUSSMANO" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1960, "page_number": "1543", "date": "06 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-06", "text": "QWitness, I can't help thinking or having the impression that you, at that time, committed sabotage. I'm not blaming you for that -- far from it, and far from believing that this was a crime. That was your free right and your good right, as a Frenchman, to commit sabotage, and it is my way of being above those things. However, the decisive point is that you made a remark yesterday which was of significance to me. You said that \" after I did a poor job for two or three or four times, I received a supervisor behind me\", and you said that \"then it didn't go as easily as before.\" What didn't go as easily as before? That you could not complete it in any other way -- that sabotage, which you, as a Frenchman, certainly had the right to commit?\nAI don't quite know what I said - \"It wasn't quite so easy\" - but, anyhow, if I said so, what I meant to say was: \"Life was not quite so easy, and the working conditions were not quite so easy\"; that is, it's quite obvious that if somebody is constantly behind you you cannot take a minute's rest, and it is pretty hard to work under these conditions.\nQWitness, you mentioned the fact yesterday that the 140 marks which you received as payment in the best times you had -- that they had to be used for food and also in order to pay for the billdts. What did you spend for food per day?\nA.I never said that the whole amount -- the whole of this 140 marks were spent on food and lodgings. I said that I had debts to pay and that I owed quite an amount of money: that after I had paid what I owed, there was practically nothing left. As a matter of fact, there was nothing left because I had other money to pay which I still owed.\nQWitness, maybe you will be kind enough to answer my questions, as exactly as possible. I asked you, what did you spend for food per day?\nPlease answer this question.\nAWell, we paid two and a half marks a week, or in some cases, even three to four marks per week, for our lodgings at the camp; and for our coffee in the morning, we paid half a mark; for our meal at noon, we used to pay between one mark and two marks fifty. That, of course, varied according to the meals, according to the hours we had to work, according to the C category of our factory, and other factors of this kind.", "speakers": [ "A", "A.", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1961, "page_number": "1544", "date": "06 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-06", "text": "QYes, witness; and how about supper?\nAWell, in the evening we used to use up whatever money or tickets we had, I remember that in the beginning we didn't even have enough money to honor our tickets --- to buy what we had on our tickets. Of course, we could sell things, but at the same time, we had already been there for six months and we couldn't go on selling forever. And I remember that all we had received for clothing at that time was a pair of wooden shoes.\nQYou surely ate at the factory canteen, didn't you witness?\nAThere were two canteens, and meals were served at different times, according to where we worked, and I told the Tribunal already that the food in the factory, the quality of the food, always varied according to whether the factory had been bombed, or whether there had been new workers coming in; whether other workers had left, and so on.\nWitness, I asked you -- and please try to answer my questions exactly. Yes, you ate at the factory canteen, together with the German workers? Yes or no?\nAThat is quite obvious, as we worked together with the German workers. It was quite impossible, if you worked together with the German workers in the same hall, not to eat together with them at the same meal table.\nQVery well; isn't it correct, then -- I am very well informed how this is done in Germany -- isn't it correct that this meal, and that the tickets were exactly defined so that neither you nor the German workers had to give more tickets, and that a certain number of tickets were fixed in advance for the meal; isn't that correct?\nAIf I may draw the attention of the defense counsel to another fact that is, of course these tickets were issued in advance, at least until the first air raid. Then afterwards it wouldn't be so regular. Sometimes it would be for a week, sometimes for two weeks, the tickets would be honored or they would not be honored, and besides that, there's something else. The German workers had additional tickets, and they could go to the war canteen and buy some sausage or something else -- so there was the difference.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1962, "page_number": "", "date": "06 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-06", "text": "QBut if you only use a certain number of tickets for your meals at noon then I'm sure that you have a certain number of tickets left for the evening.\n1544a meal.", "speakers": [ "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1963, "page_number": "1545", "date": "06 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-06", "text": "Your statement cannot be correct.\nAWhat is the sense -- exactly the sense -- of your question?\nQIt was just something I wanted to find out. I just want to consolidate this.\nABut you forget that the tickets used for the noon meal, for lunch, could not be used for the evening meal; that is, if you couldn't use up your tickets at lunch, they were useless, they were void.\nQIt's something entirely different. You received general meal tickets, like every other German, didn't you?\nAYes, that is correct.\nQOkay; thank you.\nAThat is quite correct, but what I was arguing about is the additional cards for the Germans. We had general cards, meal tickets, which were absolutely insufficient, whereas the Germans had additional meal tickets which sometimes would be ten or twenty times our rations.\nQWitness, you are under oath, and what you stated right now -- what you assert now -- you cannot possibly maintain that under oath. There were no additional cards which were ten times or twenty times as much greater than yours. There was no such thing in all Germany, and we -- I lived here as a German, and I also had the same cards that you had. I did not have any additional cards.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Dr. Bergold, you're not the witness. You have no right to offer your testimony against his, and to state facts that you claim to know which are different from the facts that he states. I think you're beginning to suffer a little bit from high blood pressure.\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes, your Honor; that is quite correct. But I have to tell him that there were no such cards ten times as big as ours, or twenty times bigger; In Germany, there was no such thing.\nTHE PRESIDENT:You don't have to tell him that. You're not the witness, and you're not under oath. You can get the answers from the witness, but don't tell him what you claim to know.\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes, forgive me, your Honors, but a fact which was generally known -- I have to out this fact before the witness. I want to ask him if he actually will stick to this statement of his.", "speakers": [ "A", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1964, "page_number": "1546", "date": "06 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-06", "text": "THE PRESIDENT:You may ask the witness whether he knows what you state to be the fact. But you didn't ask him anything. You were telling him something, and that is not your province.", "speakers": [ "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1965, "page_number": "1547", "date": "06 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-06", "text": "Q. (By Dr. Bergold) Witness, do you know that this additional card amounted to ten or twenty times the amount of yours?\nA.At least as far as my workshop is concerned I can say that our work managers and the assistant work managers, at least, had ration cards which contained ten times as much food as mine. Incidentally, it is easy to see they all have the zero behind the quantities I had on my card, or else they had another system; that was that people would get several ration cards and the same person would get five, six, seven or eight of these cards.\nQ.Witness, did you actually see that?\nA.Of course I have seen that, because that enabled them to throw sausages away which we were obliged to eat afterwards very often.\nQ.What could they throw away?\nA.Well, that was what they called the Wurst; that is, the German sausage, because whenever it would arrive and would be three or four days old, then they wouldn't like it any more so they either would throw it away or just throw it outside, and as of course we had to purchase our food on the black market and we couldn't effort it, we would tell them -- don't throw it away, or we even had to get it after they had thrown it away. Of course, we didn't like that very much because, after all, we had our pride too, but they could purchase whatever they wanted. They had tickets enough and they had money enough.\nDR. BERGOLD:I would like to tell this Tribunal that I can bring witnesses, but then, of course, the trials would have to become much longer -- I could produce witnesses who could actually testify to how the food was in Germany; that what the witness said was not possible in Germany.\nQ.Witness, I have one last question to put to you. Yesterday you mentioned that you, together with the transport of twelve hundred men, arrived in Germany from. France. Is the number correct?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1966, "page_number": "1548", "date": "06 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-06", "text": "A.This figure is correct; that is, of course, you must make allowance for a possible difference of a hundred persons, but I referred to a figure of persons who left the Southeast for Paris, and I got that figure when I came back, on the strength of the number of persons that left the Southeast at that time to be directed towards Paris. I cannot tell you what was the number of persons who left Paris for Strassoff then.\nQ.Witness, can you remember the approximate number of them? There must have been several hundreds.\nA.There were several hundreds; at least, more than five hundred.\nQVery well. Now, do you know to which factories these other comrades of yours came?\nAI remember that the comrades who came with me to Strassoff got some secondary jobs in the hotels with hairdressers, at the butchers, as mechanics, gardeners, and even servants of some high ranking German personalities. The others who came to Fishamend were later on sent to some other factory near Wiener Neustadt or to a metal factory near Vienna, or to a locomotive factory near Wiener Neustadt, and I know that the food down there was even worse than ours. I would like to say that if the defense counsel has the intention of bringing witnesses to show how the food was, then I can bring tomorrow twenty thousand witnesses who can testify that the situation was even worse than I have indicated here.\nDR. BERGOLD:Witness, I know the report of the French Government, and this report of the French Government will be introduced here, and it says something entirely different there, and this concludes my examination.\nMR. DENNEY:No further questions, your Honors.\nTHE RESIDENT:This witness may be excused.\n(Witness excused.)\nMR. DENNEY:I have another witness. I wonder if we might adjourn for a few minutes.", "speakers": [ "THE RESIDENT", "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "MR. DENNEY", "Q", "A" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1967, "page_number": "1549", "date": "06 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-06", "text": "THE PRESIDENT:You wish to talk to him before you put him on?\nMR. DENNEY:Yes, just for a moment.\nTHE PRESIDENT:How long do you want, Mr. Denney?\nMR. DENNEY:If we could just have about ten minutes?\nTHE PRESIDENT:Well, let's say we will resume at 11:00 o'clock and combine the consultation with the recess. We will resume at 11:00 o'clock.\nTHE MARSHAL:This Tribunal is in recess until 11:00 o'clock.\n(Recess was taken.)", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "MR. DENNEY", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1968, "page_number": "1550", "date": "06 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-06", "text": "THE MARSHALL:The Tribunal No.2 is again in session.\nMR. DENNEY:If your Honor please, we would like at this time to call the second prosecution rebuttal witness, the witness Paul LeFriec. It is spelled L-E-F-R-I-E-C.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The Marshall will bring the witness to the stand, please.\nPAUL LEFRIEC, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows: BY JUDGE MUSMANNO:\nQWitness, you will repeat after me. I swear to speak without hate or fear, to say the truth, all the truth and only the truth. You will now raise your right hand and say, \"I swear.\"\n(The witness repeated the oath)\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:You may be seated.\nMR. DENNEY:Before proceeding with this witness, just so there may be no question about it, I would like to say for the record that the only reason that we have put these witnesses on the stand at this time is to facilitate the proceedings, because of the fact that the witness is not here for the counsel for the defense. He has had a request in for some time, apparently he had been on his way from Muenster in the British Zone for the past several days; in the normal course of events, of course, the witness Ferrier and the witness Le Friec would have been called as rebuttal witnesses at the conclusion of the case for the defense.\nBY MR. DENNEY:\nQWitness, will you state your name?\nAMy name is Le Friec, in two words. It is spelled L-E F-R-I-E-C. My Christian name is Paul.\nQWhere were you born?\nAI was born at Lanballon, in the District of the Northern Coast.\nQSpell Lanballon?\nAThat is spelled L-A -N-B-A -L-L-O-N.\nQWhen were you born?\nA 7 March 1915.\nQWere you a member of the French Army in the recent war?", "speakers": [ "JUDGE MUSMANNO", "THE MARSHALL", "THE PRESIDENT", "MR. DENNEY", "Q", "A", "PAUL LE" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1969, "page_number": "1551", "date": "06 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-06", "text": "AYes, I was.\nQWhen did you enter the Army?\nAI joined theArmy 2 November 1938, after I had completed my studies.\nQWill you tell the court about your schooling?\nAAfter I had graduated from high school I got my law degree, and now I am assistant lawyer in the prosecution at St. Brieuc.\nQWere you a prisonner of war?\nAYes, I was a prisonner of war.\nQWhen were you captured?\nAI was captured at the Somme on the Weygand line on 5 June 1940.\nQWhere were you taken then?\nTHE PRESIDENT:Just a minute. (discussion)\nDR. BERGOLD:May I be excused for five minutes, I have to make a call at my hone, something seems to have happened at home.\nTHE PRESIDENT:We will retire to the judges' chamber. We will not disperse, but will be back on a minutes notice. The court is now recessed.\n(Temporary recess)", "speakers": [ "A", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1970, "page_number": "1552", "date": "06 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-06", "text": "Q. (By Mr. Denney) May it please Your Honors, we were talking about your captivity which occurred early in June of 1940; I believe the 5th.\nA.Yes, it was the 5th of June.\nQ.And how long did you remain a prisoner of war?\nA.I remained a prisoner of war in Germany until I was liberated by the Red Army on the 4th of May, 1945.\nQ.Where were you liberated?\nA.I was liberated near Altengrabow in a little village the name of which I cannot recollect.\nQ.During your period as a prisoner of war did you at any time work in an aircraft factory?\nA.Yes, that is correct. I worked in the Arado aircraft factory near Braundorf. That is from the 3rd or 4th of October of 1941 up to the 12th of April 1945.\nQ.Repeat the date.\nA.As from the 3rd or 4th of October 1941 up to the 12th of April 1945.\nQ.Will you tell the Court the circumstances surrounding your entry into employment at the aircraft factory at Arado?\nA.Yes. I had been at Wodern, which was a camp near Frankfurt on the Oder, for about one year and there we were used on fortification work. This camp was the Stalag 3-B, and then at the end of September 1941 we were transferred to the Stalag 3-A, and we travelled for a few days, and then we arrived at Lueckenwald. Lueckenwald was the main camp for the Stalag 3-A. We were lodged in barracks there.\nQ.What were the conditions in the barracks involved?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1971, "page_number": "1553", "date": "06 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-06", "text": "Q.What were the conditions of the barracks at Lueckenwalde?\nA.This was so-called \"transient barrack\", and there were no beds and no straw mats and we just slept on the floor. And, of course, it was full of vermin because everybody passed there and stayed there for a few days, and also we didn't stay for more than a few days in that barrack.\nQ.How did you eat?\nA.The food was very bad and it was as bad as in the Stalag III A, where everybody complained about the food because it was really insufficient. The bread they distributed to us in this Stalag III A was very bad quality.\nQ.How much did you get to eat each day?\nA.For six of us, we always had a loaf of military bread, the typical German military bread.\nQ.So-called \"black-bread\"?\nA.That was of course the black bread, and besides that, it was very often rotten.\nQ.What else did you get to eat?\nA.Some sort of soup, which was nothing but clear water.\nQ.And what else?\nA.Perhaps some margarine to put on the bread, and that's all.\nQ.And where did you go from Lueckenwalde?\nA.We wore loaded into railroad carriages and I myself asked one of the transportation chiefs there, where we were going to go. We were told that we were being sent to work in a factory which produced children's carriages -- baby carriages.\nQ.This was in September 1941?\nA.I couldn't give you exact percision as to that subject because it might have been at the end of September, but it might have been, also in the first days of October.\nQ.Who guarded you at Lueckenwalde?\nA.Camp guards, which were German soldiers.\nQ.And, on the transport taking you from Lueckenwalde, who guarded you?\nA.German soldiers also.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1972, "page_number": "1554", "date": "06 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-06", "text": "Q.And where did you go from Lueckenwalde?\nA.We arrived at this town of Brandenburg -- it's called Braunburg, or something like that.\nQ.Can you spell it for us?\nA.B-R-A-N-D-E-N-B-U-R-G. Brandenburg.\nQ.What were the conditions on the train on which you went from lueckenwalde to Brandenburg?\nA.They were cattle wagons, and we were pushed into these cattle wagons and pressed together there.\nQ.How many men to a car?\nA. 50 to 60.\nQ.Where these the normal German railway cars that one sees around now?\nA.Yes; they were normal carriages, for 40 men or for eight horses.\nQ.What did you do when you go to Brandenburg?\nA.We were led to a camp,-- the man's camp, which was at the other end of the town, and this camp was already occupied. There were Franch prisoners of war, and we were lodge there. We were there about 26 per room, in the barracks.\nQ.How big were the rooms?\nA.Well, they had the normal size of the rooms in the German barracks, which would mean that, at the highest, they would be six meters long and about three meters wide.\nQ.How were they furnished?\nA.Well there were double ranges of bods, one above the other, but I must say that, in the beginning, we had to sleep two in a bed, and there was no straw and no mattresses, and we had to sleep two with one blanket also. But that was only in the beginning.\nQ.Did they then send you to work?\nA.Well, right on the next day we were gathered around the camp and some of our comrades told us: \"Well, we don't produce baby carriages here; we produce airplanes. That's Arado Factory here.\" And then the camp commander came and divided us up in groups; whoever had to work in this factory.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1973, "page_number": "1555", "date": "06 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-06", "text": "I personally was sent to workshop X. They always numbered the workshops by \"A\", \"B\", \"C\", \"D\", etc.\nQ.Where there any other prisoners of war other than French there?\nA.At that time we, the French prisoners of war, were the only prisoners of war employed down there. At least at that time there no other prisoners of war of other nationalities, in the region of Brandenburg.\nQ.Were there any foreign laborers there from other countries?\nA.Yes; I saw foreign workers there, and I saw Italians who had come from Italy and who were so-called \"volunteers.\" Now they themselves claimed they were not volunteers, but it was none of my business, and I didn't think of looking it up, whether they really were or not.\nQ.Were there any other foreign workers there?\nA.Not that I know.\nQ.At any time prior to April 1945, when you left Brandenburg, did any other foreign nationals come there, either prisoners of war or people who had not been in the service?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1974, "page_number": "1556", "date": "06 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-06", "text": "AYes, I remember other foreign workers. First of all we had again Italians who later on came as prisoners of war after Italy had sided with the Allies. Second, we had French civilian workers who came. Third, there were the Russians and Russian female workers. Of these Russians the main part were the Ukrainians, and it was always very difficult to know anything about these Russians because it was very vague. Some of them were escapees from prisoner of war camps and we couldn't know whether their status was actually real civilian workers or whether they were prisoners of war. Anyhow then they had escaped from prisoner of war camps they would declare that they were civilian workers and would come in as such.\nThen there were the Russian prisoners of war. Then there were Lithuanians and Lithuanian female workers also, but we could never know whether they were volunteers or not, and we the Frenchmen didn't want to have any contact with them for personal reasons which I will indicate later on.\nQHow many, people were at this camp at Brandenburg where you were?\nAIn order to make it quite clear I have to say that this was not a camp, but rather a group of camps. There was the French camp, the French POW camp, and next to the French camp, right close to it, was the Russian camp which gain was subdivided into two camps, one for male workers and one for female workers.\nThe Russian camp for female workers included the camp for Lithuanian workers. Then, eight hundred yards from there we had the camp for French civilian workers and also eight hundred yards from our camp, but in another direction, we had the camp for the Italians. As far as the figure of the foreign workers is concerned, I can say that we had fifteen hundred French POW's, but I must say that when the first air raid started and the camp management -- the factory management decided to decentralize the factories, some of our camp comrades left us and were sent elsewhere, so then we had some less French POW's there. That's as far as we go with French POW's.\nThat, of course, is the figure which I can give with most precision, and I think that from four to five hundred French civilian workers, deportees and workers who came in under the labor assignment program were also employed at our Arado Factory.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1975, "page_number": "1557", "date": "06 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-06", "text": "Also, I could say that about a thousand Russian workers, male, female and also children had been brought -- deported into cur camp for the benefit of the Arado Factory. I think there were about forty Lithuanians, male and female, and finally there were about five to six hundred Italian POW's who were in their own camp down there.\nQDid these Russian children work?\nAYes, these Russian children worked, but I would like to give some details concerning this question and these details bring me also to a typical case of my captivity. If it please the Tribunal, I would like to give these details now.\nIn about 1942 another camp was constructed near our camp, next to our camp, and during the first half of 1942 we saw the first Russian deportees arrive. Now I made already a restriction, a reservation with regard to this title of deportee. We used to call there deportees, but as I said before, we never actually knew whether they were deportees or escaped prisoners of war, and at that time we saw the first Russian women to come down there too.\nI want to make it a point to say that I am stating here only what I have seen myself. I have seen Russian women arriving at that camp, women who were pregnant and women who were carrying newly born children, babies, and I have seen that the children were in the camp and worked there, children of all ages, and I think that the Arado Factory employed them from seven or eight years of age. I have seen children of seven or eight years of age work in the factory. These children were used for cleaning work, certainly not difficult work, no hard work, but it took a lot of time.\nI must add that after a certain time the Arado Factory had to give up using the services of these children because they caused too much disorder in the Factory and also I may say that within the camp the children were very hungry, and they used to creep through these barbed wire enclosures and come into our camp in order to get some of the biscuits we got from the American Red Cross.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1976, "page_number": "1558", "date": "06 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-06", "text": "Also, I may add that several times we had to give condensed milk from our own rations from the American Red Cross to these newly born children in spite of orders by the German authorities, according to which nothing could be given to Russians. We had to do so for pity's sake.\nQ.What were the conditions with reference to food in the camp during the time that you were there?\nA.I am going to talk only of the French camp because that is the only camp where I really can give some details. When we arrived in 1941 the food was practically as bad as it used to be in the Stalag III A. The food situation even deteriorated, and throughout all this winter, from 1941 to 1942, the food situation deteriorated constantly. If we hadn't had these parcels from the Red Cross at that time the situation would have been impossible, and whenever we went to the Germans to complain, they would always answer us, \"Yes, after all you have your Red Cross parcels.\"\nQ.What were the hours of work?\nA.The working hours at the beginning were eight to nine hours, but when we came to 1944 and 1945 they had reached fourteen hours a day in certain of the workshops, and even you had to work on Sunday morning, and I remember one of my colleagues who had to work seven Sunday mornings in a row.\nQ.And what kind of airplanes were they making there?\nA.I personally was engaged in work on the repair of the wings of the plane. Some others would construct the forms in which the wings would be molded, and others again worked on the motors, but I must say that the organization of the factory was such that all the kinds of work for airplane construction could take place there.\nQ.What kind of planes did you work on?\nA.First of all we worked for bombing aircraft for Junkers. At a certain time they started to construct a special plane which was not called an Arado plane. The trademark given to the plane was a Hoinkel, and I know that it was Heinkel 177. This plane had double landing wheels and it was the plane of which the \"Voelkischer Beobachter\", the German news paper, said that they would go and bomb America with that plane.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1977, "page_number": "", "date": "06 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-06", "text": "1558-A", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1978, "page_number": "1559", "date": "06 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-06", "text": "Q.Did you at any time make any complaint?\nA.We complained about work in these aircraft factories. Is that what you mean?\nQ.Yes, Tell the Court about it.\nA.Yes, there were complaints made. After all, there were a few of us when we arrived down there who had some idea about the Geneva Convention; and we pointed out to our commandos that it seemed to us that if Article 31 of the Geneva Convention was applied this kind of work could not be done by us. There was a sort of a trustee for the workers; but actually we had no way of conversing with the authorities because this trustee was not a trustee who was elected by us but had been appointed by the camp authorities. Therefore, the prisoners had no confidence in him.\nWe eventually agreed that the only thing to do was a general strike. The password was passed on, on the 20th of January 1942. The general strike of the French workers broke out on the 21st of January 1942 at 9:00 a.m. All the French prisoners and all the French workers obeyed this word and followed this strike with the exception of a few whom the password had not reached.\nQ.What happened after that?\nA.They gathered all tho French workers at the airfield and made us stand at attention there. It was snowing and the temperature was at about minus 18 to minus 20 degrees centigrade. They made us stand to attention until 5:30 p.m. We had to stand there; and we were threatened. Some of our comrades fell; and I have to add that we were allowed to bring them to the dispensary when they collapsed.\nAt 5:30 some officers came out and asked why we had stopped the work and wanted to know the reasons for this strike, which seemed to have surprised them very much. The officers asked for some people who had the confidence of the workers to come out and speak; so at once I and some of my comrades came forward. Then I told them that first of all there was the Geneva Convention which was being violated and second that there were the food conditions, which were very impossible.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1979, "page_number": "1560", "date": "06 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-06", "text": "They told us that as far as the food was concerned this was a hard winter for everybody. Germans included; and as far as the Geneva Convention was concerned, we would get an official answer within some period of time.\nSometime later we actually received the answer; and in this answer they asserted that the Geneva Convention had been bypassed by the developments and that there was no reason for the existence of this geneva Convention as Germany had entered a period of total warfare. They alleged that we ourselves had violated the Geneva Convention by stopping work without lodging our complaints through the regular channels; but they forgot that they themselves had previously violated the Convention by appointing a trustee who was not in our confidence.\nQ.Who were the officers that came out and talked to you when you had this strike?\nA.Those were officers of the Stalag III-A and others whom I didn't know.\nQ.In what service did their uniforms indicate they were?\nA.It was the regular uniform of the German officer of the OKW.\nQ.Did you ever see any Luftwaffe officers around?\nA.Not in the camp. When we did see officers of the Luftwaffe, there were inspections. At these inspections we saw officers of whom we were told that they belonged to the Luftwaffe and we saw civilians of whom we were told also that they were officials in the Air Ministry. I must say that we only were told so because all we know was by hearsay. These visits by officers became more and more frequent towards 1944 and 1945 because at that time we had started production of rocket-propelled airplanes. There were few of them; there were only a very few.\nI want to stress the point that this general strike which we had on the 21st of January 1942 was not the only manifestation of our will not to work in the armament factory. We made various representations at the Mission Scapini, which was the French Ministry for the Deportees during the Vichy government; and we got the most incredible answers. For instance, they would assert that the Germans would say the Geneva Convention was signed by a German democrat and now that National Socialism had come all those things were changed and that they could not answer for any obligations undertaken by German democrats.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1980, "page_number": "1561", "date": "06 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-06", "text": "Q.What were the health conditions in the camp at Arado?\nA.I must say, frankly, that in camp the general sanitation was acceptable. I must also say that what I had to reproach in those camps was that they were overcrowded. I should add, too, that many a tubercular man had to go away to the Stalag because whoever had tuberculosis was sent to the Stalag and to the dispensary from Lueckenwalde. Our working command, our camp at Arado, was what all our comrades in the Stalag dreaded most. They were afraid of coming into our camp because they saw other comrades come back there sick. They were also afraid of the working conditions in our camp.\nQ.How much were you paid?\nA.These salaries, of course, varied, I might say that they would start at 18 marks as a minimum and 60 marks as a maximum per month; but I want to specify that when I say 60 marks I do not include specialist workers, who would at times get more than that. But I want to draw the attention of the High Tribunal immediately to the fact that we Frenchmen never did complain about the pay we received from the Germans because it would have been in contradiction with our honor as Frenchmen and as prisoners of war to go and argue with the Germans for a mark or something like that.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The Court is in recess until 1:30\nTHE MARSHAL:The Tribunal is in recess until 1330 this afternoon.\n(A recess was taken until 1330 hours)", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "Q.", "A.", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1981, "page_number": "1562", "date": "06 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-06", "text": "AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1330 hours, 6 March 1947)\nTHE MARSHAL:Tribunal No. 2 is now in session.\nMR. DENNEY:May it please Your Honors.\nBY MR. DENNEY:\nQ.Witness, just before lunch we had been discussing the conditions at the camp where you worked, and I neglected to ask you whether or not you ever saw any people working around the plants who were wearing the concentration camp uniform with black and white vertical stripes?\nA.Yes, indeed. This is a detail I forgot to mention this morning. That near Brandenburg there was a little village, the village was called Goerden, G-O-E-R-D-E-N, and near this village there was a prison, and the kind of a prison that the Germans call Zuchthaus, which corresponds with an American penitentiary, and this penitentiary would dispatch working units inside our factory, and these working units were at one of our French factories which was at Neundorf, N-E-U-N-D-O-R-F, which was also a part of Brandenburg. It was a factory which was about eighthundred yards away from our main plant, and they wore engaged in some work of crushing sand there, and had to prepare this sand in order to make a road for the planes to come out of the hangers, out of the houses which were for the planes. These people wore uniforms of concentration camp inmates, that is, the black and white striped uniforms.\nOne day I passed there, and somebody talked to me in French, while I was passing, and this man told me that he was a prisoner of war, and that he was from my own part of France, that is, from Brittany. was, of course, quite interested because he was almost somebody from my own home place, and he told me that --- first of all I saw that he was not wearing the POW uniform, the POW uniform had been taken away from him, and he told me that he was obliged to work there, and that the worse punishment for him was the fact that in this penitentiary he had to live with criminal prisoners, and with prisoners of all nationalities.", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "A.", "Q.", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1982, "page_number": "1563", "date": "06 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-06", "text": "I want to give one more detail. Of course, at the time I had no way of checking whether this man was really a POW other than that was what he told me, and he might not have been, but when I came back to my home place I checked up on it, and I found him again in Brittany.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1983, "page_number": "1564", "date": "06 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-06", "text": "Q.What happened at Brandenburg at the time of the bombing raids?\nINTERPRETER TREIDEL:May it please the Court, my fellow interpreters have just drawn my attention to the fact that I forgot something in my interpretation that the witness said. That is that the French prisoner told him that he had been imprisoned and sentenced to three years of penitentiary for having had sexual intercourse with a German woman.\nAs to the present answer:\nI must say that the German authorities tried to make us be protection guards for these factories during the air raids. They oven succeeded in doing so partially and for a certain length of time, but in the end they had to drop it because of the constant refusal by the French POW's and Dutchmen had to pull guard eventually. These Dutchmen who had to stand guard at the factory had, of course, German helmets, German coats, and German gas masks.\nI wanted to add that at the Brennabor factory, B-R-E-N-N-A-B-O-R, a factory which makes spare parts for the planes, mainly screws and that kind of thing, the Germans also tried to employ POW's for protection purposes during the air raids, but they succeeded for a certain length of time. As a matter of fact, they succeeded for longer than they actually succeeded in our own factory, but eventually they had to drop the idea because the POW's refused, and they decided not to use POW workers any longer for these protection purposes. I must add, however, that the spokesman of these factory workers was relieved from his duties, from his position, on account of the very fact that he brought the complaints of the factory workers with regard to these guard duties to the authorities and that this dismissal of the spokesman in itself constitutes another violation of the Geneva Convention.\nQ.What was the relative position of the various nationalities who were prisoners of war, as far as their treatment by the Germans was concerned?\nA.If were to establish an exact classification of the kind of treatment that the Germans would deign to apply to the different categories of prisoners, I would, of course, say that it is a fact that Americans and Englishmen were the ones that were treated best because it is certain that the Germans would never have dared and did not dare to use them in their armament factories for work.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "INTERPRETER TREIDEL", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1984, "page_number": "1565", "date": "06 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-06", "text": "Next on the scale came the Frenchmen, but if they came next on the scale it was only for the reason that they actually opposed the Germans and resisted them. We always saw that the Germans had respect only for people who actually went against their will.\nThen we night say that the Belgian workers would come, and, of course, the Italians and Russians were the lowest on the scale, and their treatment was the worst.\nQ.Did you ever seen anyone in your factory who was beaten by someone?\nA.Yes, I have seen persons beaten in the factory, but a distinction has to be made. On one side, French workers would, for instance, argue and discuss with their meisters, their foremen or their chief engineers there, the chief production managers in the work shops, and the discussion would often degenerate and would come to blows, and then they would be beaten, but I could not say that this was generally the case and that it happened as a general rule.\nOn the other hand, the Russians and Italians very often were the object of rows, and they wore the ones to suffer during the rows, and they were beaten during these rows. The French very often witnessed that.\nI must say that whenever a German worker would give some provocation to a French worker or would beat him during an argument, the German worker would never be punished, and the French worker would always be punished. Unfortunately, I have had some of my comrades who were sent to prison for that very reason.\nI want to add that intercourse with German women was strictly prohibited for us in the camp and in the factory, and I must say that, of course, the German women were not always in agreement with these prescriptions. When we came to the factory, to Stalag 3-B-- that is the campfirst they made us sign a form in which we had to sign that we knew that we could not have intercourse with German women.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1985, "page_number": "1566", "date": "06 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-06", "text": "The reason for this law was given by the Law for the Protection of the German Race.\nI know that many of the comrades who have been condemned were brought before the court and the judgment, the sentence, was always three years imprisonment. That was the price, and that was what they always got. I know that in five years no extenuating circumstances were introduced, and they always got the same thing, whether the German had been consenting or not.\nI have to add that near our camp there was the Camp Arado, and quite near to the camp was a women's camp. We French prisoners always considered it very cruel that so near to our camp there was a camp for women, and I am convinced that the High Tribunal will understand why we found that it was so very cruel.\nQ.Did you ever sign a labor contract?\nA.Oh, no.\nQ.Did you wear the uniform of the French army all during the time that you worked there?\nYes, I were the uniform of the French army during the whole of my stay at the factory, but I must say that attempts were made to transform us into civilian workers. They tried, and, with the exception of 16 of my comrades, everybody refused. Because these 16 had some excuses; for instance, their brothers who were civilians or civilian workers, or their wives who had come to Germany because they believed the propaganda which was made in France to that effect, but most of us, with the exception of these 16, we all refused, and we did so because we were soldiers and we had the respect of our uniforms.\nQ.Never at any time when you were being hold were you discharged from the French army?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1986, "page_number": "1567", "date": "06 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-06", "text": "A.No, I was only discharged when I came back to France after the liberation.\nMR. DENNEY:I have no further questions.\nTHE WITNESS:I would like to add something.\nMR. DENNEY:Go right ahead.\nTHE WITNESS:I would like to inform this high Tribunal of the exact location of our working unit if I may say so. I want to say that our working unit or camp was situated at the beginning of the outskirts of the town of Brandenburg, and it was situated right in the middle of several factories. That is to say more precisely in the center of a triangle that was formed by the Arado factory, by the Mitteldeutsche Stahwerke, which means the central German steel plants, and by the Opel factory. Besides that our camp was right at the edge of the air field which joined the two Arado factories, Arado Neunberg and Arado Brandenburg. Therefore, it was quite obvious that as soon as there was an air raid on one of these factories, we, in our camp, would be in for it, and besides that as soon as the first sirens rang, that was the so-called preliminary alert, the voralarm, how the Germans called it, the Germans would bring their planes to the very edge of our camp. We had two very strong air attacks on our plants. The first was on the 6th of August, 1944. The arado, factories were almost totally destroyed, and besides that we had at that time a very strong battery of what the Germans called flak meaning flieger abwehrkaone, anti-aircraft guns. We didn't suffer anything in our camp so we might well say at that day God was a Frenchman. Unfortunately, we were not always so lucky. In spring of the year 1945, that was the 31st of March, another heavy air attack was carried out against Brandenburg. The planes, the target of the planes was at that time the Mitteldeutsche Stahlwerke, central German steel works, and also the Arado airfield, but our camp had to suffer from this attack very heavily and fifty of my comrades, exactly fifty were killed during this attack. I am weighing the words I am speaking here. I am very careful about what I am saying. I do not held the Americans responsible for the death of my comrades but the Germans were responsible because they were warned again and again, and again and again we told them, \"How can you bring airplanes so near to our camp?", "speakers": [ "THE WITNESS", "A.", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1987, "page_number": "1568", "date": "06 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-06", "text": "It is impossible to move an antiaircraft battery so near to our camp.\" But they wouldn't listen to us so what happened had to happen. Not only we, the Frenchmen, had to suffer from this attack but also the Russians, and putting it mildly the Russians lost at least one hundred and fifty persons in their camp during the attack, and of these one hundred and fifty more than half were women and many children. I would like to bring the Court some more details concerning the treatment we received inside the camp. If I am to describe the conditions I may say that when we first came to the camp we were, of course, very miserable. Then the conditions improved, but towards 1944 we became more unhappy again. The Germans knew that we in our camp had no pro-German elements, no collaborators, and if I may say so today, this was an honor for us. So as they knew that, they sent into our camp French spies disguised as French soldiers. Oh, they were Frenchmen, of course, I don't know whether they were originally soldiers, but when they came into our camp they were wearing the French uniform. I have seen many of these persons, and I have seen even the notes one of these spies had in which he wrote, \"I have seen Mr. So-and so at the Gestapo and I have discussed the case of Mr. X with him.\" So it was quite clear that these people were in connection with the Gestapo. The German soldiers who guarded our camp did not know that these men were spies and were quite surprised when they found out, but it was quite obvious to me that they were sent by civilian authorities, or at least civilian authorities had made them come to the camp. If I may add the following, I have knowledge also that the Arado factory, unfortunately, was not the only factory which employed prisoners of war for armament purposes. I know of at least one factory in our Army District 3, Wehrkreis 3, that was the Army district which included the four stalags, the four P.C.W. camps, A, B, C and D, I know there was a factory of the B.M.W. which means Bayrische Motoren Werke, Bavarian Motor works, and this factory was an aircraft factory, and I could not give the exact location, but I believe it was either at Lichterfelde or Ludwigfelde near Berlin, and besides that I heard from my comrades there was another factory, a Heinkel factory at which prisoners of war, at which the prisoners of the Stalag III-B worked, and this Heinkel factory was said to be at Oranienburg, and at all these factories the conditions were much the same as at our own factory.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1988, "page_number": "1569", "date": "06 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-06", "text": "This is all I have to say.\nQ. (By Mr. Denney) One further question. I have handed you a document which you gave to me this morning in my office. This document is the text of a letter addressed to the confidential agents on the subject of Article I of the Geneva Convention, and it is signed by George Scapini who at that time was in the French Diplomatic Service. Do you knew what position Scapini held in early 1942?", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1989, "page_number": "1570", "date": "06 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-06", "text": "A.I'm sorry if, in order to give the position held by Mr. Scapini, --I'm sorry if I have to go into some detail. According to the Geneva Convention, prisoners of war depend on three different nations. The first nation, of course, is the nation -- their own nation -- the second is the nation which has captured them, and the third is the protector nation, the nation which has to protect the interests of the POW's. When in 1940 the Vichy Government appointed Scapini the French Ambassador in Berlin, Scapini created in Berlin the so-called \"DFB\", which is the French Delegation in Berlin, and I'm sorry to say, the French Delegation consisted of rather a bunch of bad Frenchmen, who, in complicity with the German authorities, claimed the right of being the protectors of the French POW's in Germany. And those Frenchmen literally sold us to the Germans.\nAnd I must say that, in this particular instance, the responsibility of the Germans is particularly heavy because they used these phoney channels they had in order to impose on us conditions which were unacceptable for us, and, if I know today the Geneva Convention - because I have to admit that at that time, before the war, I didn't know the Geneva Convention, in spite of the fact that I actually know such a convention existed but I didn't know its clauses -- if I knew the convention today, it is because the Germans taught us every single clause of the convention by their violations, in the same manner, as they taught us geography by making war everywhere.\nMR. DENNEY:If Your Honors please, I'd like at this time to offer in evidence a copy of this document. It doesn't have a document number because we've just been able to get it documented this morning, so it's Document No. Blank, but we offer it as Exhibit 132, and it is the text of a letter addressed to confidential agents on the subject of Article of War 31, which has to do with Prohibited Labors, and it is signed by Georges Scapini.", "speakers": [ "A.", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1990, "page_number": "1571", "date": "06 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-06", "text": "It states:\n\"You requested the \"D.F.B.\" (German French Plenipotentiary) to give you information on the present state of the conditions of the application of Article 31 of the Geneva Convention.\n\"I think that, in order to give you a precise idea on the subject it is a good thing to give you a brief historical outline.\n\"Up to the month of February 1942, my Services protested to the high authorities of the OKW against the employment of French Prisoners of War in the industries dubbed specifically armament industries. My interventions were followed by only partial success, when in February 1942, a certain number of the Kommando of Military Districts III, V, and XVII without paying attention to the prescriptions of Articles 42 and 31 (paragraph 2) of the Geneva Convention, suddenly, simultaneously and with one accord stopped work.\nIn informing me of the situation, the OKW told me that according to the terms of the German Code of Military Justice, the attitude of the French Prisoners of War came under the headings of insurrection and mutiny, a state which necessitated suppressive measures, into the nature of which it is useless to go.\n\"At the same time, OKW set forth:\n\"1) That in the general way of things, and on many points, events had overruled the jurisdiction of the Geneva Convention.\n\"2) That literal application of the text could give rise to a situation which would be infinitely harder for the French Prisoners of War than that created by a wider interpretation. Thus, in practice, the employment of Prisoners of War in salt mines, as high temperature furnace stokers, in the chem ical industries and in synthetic gasoline factories, was in keeping with the terms of article 31, and moreover, the principle laid down in Article 31 aimed at avoiding, the necessity of the Prisoners of Wars making, by his effort a contribution to the direct war being waged by the Detaining Power, against his own country; but these conceptions, valid perhaps in 1929 had no longer any validity at a moment when a new principle, that of total Warfare was making its appearance.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1991, "page_number": "1572", "date": "06 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-06", "text": "That such was the case in Germany, where all activity except that which had a direct bearing on the waging of war was strictly forbidden.\n\"3) That, consequently, there was not a Prisoner of War, of whatever nationality he might be, whose efforts, from the very moment, when he started work, were not of direct value to the war.\n\"4.) That, in the event of our insisting on the systematic application of Article 31, the high German authorities would be compelled, for their part, to withdraw all the favours from which the French Prisoners (Auflockerung) of War have benefited, namely: liberation of prisoners, liberty, etc., Finally, that the rigorous application of the letter of the law would include sanctions to be taken against kommando of Military Districts III, V and XVII, whose attitude had been judged, as has been stated above, by the high German authorities.\n\"In view of this presentation of the questions, it was agreed:\n\"a) that we would not insist upon the systematic application of Article 31 of the Geneva Convention.\n\"b) that the favourable measures from which the French Prisoners of War had been benefitted up till now should be continued.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1992, "page_number": "1573", "date": "06 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-06", "text": "\"c) that no sanction would be taken against the Prisoners of War kommando of Military Districts III, V and XVII.\n\"d) that the special claims relating to their treatment, food, and working hours, which were, incidentally, based on the requirements specified by the kommando concerned, should be examined in a favorable light, with a view to introducing improvements.\n\"c) that, when a difficulty arose on the subject cf the application of Article 31, it should, after having been brought to the attention of the Protective Power by the machinations of the confidential agent, it be examined on its own merits by myself and the high German authorities with a view to finding a solution in keeping with the nature of the basic problem, according to whether it has bearing on the principle or on the condition of work.\n\"Such, in brief, is the history of this question, and such the present position. It follows that when you are faced with a problem of this kind, you must:\n\"1) remind your comrades of the terms of Articles 42 and 31 (paragraph 2) of the Geneva Convention.\n\"2) Request a detailed report of the grievances caused by the kommandos concerned.\n\"3) Hand over the whole matter to the German French Plenipotentiary, thus enabling the Protecting Power to get into contact with the Detaining Power.\n\"It goes without saying, that, before adopting this mode of procedure, you would draw your comrades' attention to the fact that, in the event of the Protecting Power's obtaining from the Detaining Power a change of command, this change might entail not only advantages for the people concerned. Unfortunately, it is my duty to point this out to you.\n\"I hope that this survey will furnish you with complete information.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1993, "page_number": "1574", "date": "06 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-06", "text": "I am aware of the difficulties of your task. They are sistertroubles to my own. I am counting on you to maintain the spirit of unity of discipline of calm and self possession which you have been able to spread in your camp, and I thank you for your devoted service. My affectionate greetings.\" \"Georges Scapini\" \"French Ambassador.\"\nAnd here, of course, we see what was done by the Germans - the O.K.W. through the puppet, who is in Berlin, representing certainly something that wasn't France, someone who didn't speak for men like this witness, or thousands of others who were prisoners, a willing tool in an iron hand, saying: \"I've spoken to the O.K.W. You were very fortunate. You've been well treated. It could be worse.\"\nI have no further questions.\nREDIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. BERGOLD:\nQ.Witness, you told us this morning that you were taken from Lueckenwalde to Brandenburg. How long did that trip take?\nA.I cannot give you the exact time any more, but I remember - I'm perfectly certain that it was more than a day because we passed two nights in the train.\nQ.Did you drive and drive for one whole day without stopping from Lueckenwalde to Brandenburg? Or did you stop some place for a longer period of time?\nA.If I may draw attention to the fact that first of all, trips and railways during the war were rather difficult in Germany, and furthermore, to the fact that prisoners of war and the transports of prisoners of war were considered so very unimportant a part of the nation that very often one would just let them stand on the rail for seven hours and for another seven hours. I remember that we stopped somewhere in the region of Berlin.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1994, "page_number": "1575", "date": "06 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-06", "text": "", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1995, "page_number": "1576", "date": "06 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-06", "text": "QThank you.\nABecause I want to explain that we went Berlin-Lueckenwalde-Brandenburg and that we did not touch the line, Juterbog-Wildpark because I know very well this railway line.\nQThank you, witness. You told us of Italians who were at the Arado Factory before 1943?\nAI spoke of Italians indeed before 1943, but I never talked of Italian, prisoners of war. These Italians were volunteers or at least the Germans said that they were volunteers, and they were quite friendly with the Germans. They were civilian clothes with armbands or some insignia. They were very proud of being Italians. Some of them, of course, seemed to have slightly different political opinions, but as a general rule these were passed off as or were volunteers and I was rather inclined that they actually were civilian volunteers, at least, inasmuch as the Germans used to call these people volunteers.\nQBut these people came from Italy, didn't they, those Italians? At that time Italy wasn't occupied by Germany?\nAYes, that is quite correct. Italy was not occupied by the Germans yet, but I don't think that I bring anything now to the knowledge of this esteemed Tribunal, and I don't think either that I depart from the impartiality which a witness has to show if I say that if it is true that the Germans did not actually occupy Italy at that time, that the German National Socialists still had in Italy some people who resembled them like brothers.\nQBut at that time the legal Italian Government, was the Fascist Government, wasn't it?\nAYes, they were the legal government, but is the legal question or the human question to be discussed now?\nQWe don't want to go into politics here.\nAI have not started to talk about politics. Somebody tried to make me make a political pirouette here, and I answered in the same way.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1996, "page_number": "1577", "date": "06 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-06", "text": "QI asked you because you had asserted that the Italians hadn't gone on a voluntary basis. Witness, I want you to answer only my questions and nothing else.\nAI have never said anything like that. I never said that there were no volunteers, and besides that, I think that the question is not very relevant because there were rather few Italians at that time. The main bunch of the Italians we got down there were brought in after the occupation of Italy when the Germans brought then in by force, and therefore I think that the question has no particular importance.\nQWitness, you told about your working hours. In 1944 and '45 you said it was fourteen hours. Was that the working time for the German workers as well?\nAI want to clarify that point. First of all, I already said that these fourteen hours did not apply to all the workshops, but only to certain workshops, and second, it is quite clear that theoretically the Germans had exactly the same working hours, but there were some restrictions to that and that was the fact that once or twice or even three times a week the Germans would have permission to leave at 4:00 o'clock or towards 4:00 o'clock instead of the later hour at which we used to leave, either to go back to their camp -- there probably they had to clean up a little bit, or for family reasons, or else a reason which was most frequently given, to queue and get their meal tickets. At least, those were the reasons which the German workers used to give us when they left off at 4:00 o'clock.\nBesides that, I want to thank the defense counsel for having kindly put this question to me, because it enables me to give one more detail which I had forgotten before. I forgot to say that these working hours I was referring to were the hours of actual work completed in the factory and that the time to go to the working place or to go back to the camp was not included in these working hours.\nWhen the factory was decentralized, after the air raids especially at that time, some of the working places would be at the distance of up to two and a half miles and with the bad shoes these prisoners had, they even had to walk to the place and this time was added to the working hours, a fact which constitutes another violation of the Geneva Convention.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1997, "page_number": "1578", "date": "06 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-06", "text": "Q.May I ask you a question, witness, concerning that roll call you had after that strike of yours? Do you remember that?\nA.Yes, I remember.\nQ.Just a moment. Just a moment. Let me ask you now, you mentioned the fact that at 5:30 in the evening officers came to that camp and you also remember that Mr. Denney asked you what kind of uniforms they wore?\nA.I remember that I was asked that question.\nQ.Witness, what uniform was that? Was that the uniform of the Luftwaffe which these officers wore? because you said the general uniform there were also officers of the Luftwaffe or was that the gray-green uniform of the normal Army officer?\nA.First of all, I'd like to draw the attention of the Defense counsel to the fact that it was 5:30 p.m. on the 21st of January, therefore rather dark, and that it was snowing. And second, I do not see the reason to ask me this question again because this morning already I answered that it was the uniform, the regular uniform of the Wehrmacht officers.\nQ.Witness, you don't have to think over whatever I ask you, but it is my right to ask you a question and it is your duty to answer my question. Do not forget that.\nINTERPRETER TREIDELH:I have to complete the witness' statement.\nTHEPRESIDENT (in French): Witness, will you please remember that you are hero in the capacity of a witness, and not as an attorney?\nINTERPRETER TREIDELH:The witness' statement completed was -- besides that, the officers told us that they would not make a decision about this, what they called this mutiny -- Meuterei as they called it, and in fact, the decision was brought to us later.", "speakers": [ "INTERPRETER TREIDELH", "Q.", "A.", "THE" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1998, "page_number": "1579", "date": "06 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-06", "text": "Q.Witness, you also spoke of the fact that near that place where you were working you met a Frenchman from the Penitentiary Goerden and I wish you to answer my question by \"yes\" or \"no\".\nA.I had met this Frenchman in the factory, in the boundaries of the factory of what we called the Neundorf Arado factory, and he was in there.\nQ.He said, however, that he had been at the penitentiary Goerden or something to that effect?\nA.Yes, he came from that penitentiary.\nQ.You said before that the man was wearing the uniform of a concentration camp inmate. Do you know that in Germany all prisoners, even those from prisons and penitentiaries, were striped uniforms?\nA.I know that. I have knowledge of the fact because I learned it just from these people of the penitentiary of Goerden. But I know another fact, too; and that is that the Geneva Convention prohibits taking the uniform away from a prisoner of war.\nQ.That is a point of argument, and I shall mention that later on. When the prisoner goes into the penitentiary, that is something entirely different. That is my opinion, at least, Witness, you spoke of airraids. Can you tell me how many Germans were killed there?\nA.Yes, on the 6th of August very few Germans were killed. At least there were less than ten because that 6th of August 1944 was a Sunday and there was very little work done in the work halls there; or, rather, I would say that the work in the workshops was already finished because the bombing took place at 1:30 p.m. As for the bombing, the airraid of the 31st of March 1945, well, it was very much the same story. That was the Saturday Saint Holiday, there was no work in the factory. Besides that, of course, it was the 31st of March 1945, and the Germans did not push their production with the same strength they used to push it before. They were rather disillusioned, a little disillusioned, and they didn't pay so much attention; and therefore nobody was killed at the factory.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 1999, "page_number": "1580", "date": "06 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-06", "text": "Our own workers were not killed at the factory itself either. They were all killed in the camp. But on the other hand, of course, in the city of Brandenburg itself there were numerous German victims because all the areas covered and in the vicinity of the Opel, Arado, Brennaber, and central German Metal work factories were heavily bombed and damaged, so that there were many German victims in these regions.\nQNow, Witness, I must have misunderstood you this morning. I said that the attack of the 31st of March occurred in 1944. You just said that it happened in 1945.\nAThat would be very easy to clarify. In 1944, you said. That is not important. If there is an error, that would be just by accident; and I don't pay any attention to it because it is very easy to find out just by checking up as to when the Saint Saturday in 1945 and in 1944 was.\nQWitness, you said before that there were protective measures and that while you were being submitted to air-raids you were called upon to do that work. Would you be kind enough to tell us what kind of protective measures they were?\nAThe kind of duty they wanted to make us perform was mainly guard duty.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2000, "page_number": "1581", "date": "06 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-06", "text": "We would have had to circulate in the factory, four or five of us always together, accompanied by a German soldier. At that time what they dreaded most were the incendiary bombs, phosphor bombs. If we had accented this kind of duty, we would have had to go around in the factory and look to see whether there was an incendiary bomb somewhere and then we would have had to extinguish it with sand. Of course, another duty would have been that we would have had to stay in the factory during the air-raids.\nThere were, of course, other duties for other prisoners, mainly for the Dutch and Russian prisoners. They had to do anti-aircraft duties; the anti-aircraft guns had to be manned by them. If we refused to do that, if we didn't do it, it was because we knew very well where that would lead us and because also as soldiers and prisoners we had to refuse.\nQAre you sure that they were Dutch prisoners and not Russian prisoners?\nAI'm sure that they were Dutch and Russians. I don't know whether the Russians were prisoners or civilians. I never found out what they actually were.\nQOne moment, witness. Did you ever hear anything about the fact that the Russians had volunteered to do this kind of work?\nAYes, I grant you that; but, of course, you have to define the word \"volunteer\" in the way the Germans define it, because why did these people volunteer? Because in order to man the anti-aircraft guns the Germans would place at their disposal an additional ration card for fat and food; and these people were so hungry and so famished that they would have done whatever you wanted them to do in order to have some more food; so we cannot even blame our Russian comrades for having done that.\nQI'm not trying to blame them either. Witness, you spoke before of the prohibition that had been given to you concerning sexual intercourse with German women.\nAYes, I remember.\nQWas this regulation applied to prisoners of war?\nAYes,", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2001, "page_number": "1582", "date": "06 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-06", "text": "DR. BERGOLD:Thank you. I have no further questions to the witness.\nMR. DENNEY:If your Honor please, I have just one question DIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. DENNEY:\nQDid anyone while you were a prisoner of war ever show you a copy of the German statues?\nAWhat kind of statutes?\nQGerman penal law.\nANo, I never knew anything about it whatever. I knew about the German statutes, German penal law I knew, because I had studied some comparative law when I was studying law.\nMR. DENNEY:No more questions.", "speakers": [ "A", "DR. BERGOLD", "MR. DENNEY", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2002, "page_number": "1583", "date": "06 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-06", "text": "THE WITNESS:May I add something concerning the document which has been handed to the Tribunal. The OKW answered to the Scapini Mission, who had written that letter, that if the Article 31 had been strictly applied, prisoners of war would have had to put up with a very hard situation, that is, they could have been sent into salt mines, into coal mines, into the factories for synthetic gasoline, and near to stoves with very high temperatures, and I have to add that the Germans have not deprived themselves of this privilege of putting prisoners of war into the factories producing synthetic oil and synthetic gasoline, and, also to put them near high temperature furnaces; and, I can even remember one of my comrades who had left the Arado factory, and who worked at the Mittel Deutsche, at the Central German Metal Works, which was at Brandenburg, who had to work very close to one of those high temperature furnaces, and I even remember of an Italian worker who had committed suicide by throwing himself into the melting stove. That, of course, is not an excuse here, because if these facts do not constitute a violation of Article 31, then they are a violation of article 32 of the Geneva Convention.\nJUDGE PHILLIPS:What effect did your work and your living conditions have on your health and the health of your comrades while you were working there in this foundry or factory?\nTHE WITNESS:I must say that there were numerous cases of tuberculosis, and there were not many of my comrades who died, but many workers, French workers, did come home to France with tuberculosis. But in order to clarify that I have to say that for a certain time we received food parcels from home, and as soon as these food parcels stopped, we were saved by the fact that the American Red Cross would send us other parcels, after an agreement was reached with General De G**lle at Algiers.\nDR. BERGOLD:May I ask one more question, your Honor.\nBY DR. BERGOLD:\nQWitness, do you know that at the present moment in France German prisoners of war -- that is, Germans who were prisoners of war in France also worked in mines?", "speakers": [ "THE WITNESS", "JUDGE PHILLIPS", "DR. BERGOLD", "Q", "THE WITNESS" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2003, "page_number": "1584", "date": "06 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-06", "text": "AI know that, but I think it is all a question of whether the German POW's in France are treated the same way as the French POW's used to be treated in Germany. It is all a question of humanity, and I think that we Frenchmen have a reputation of being more humane than the Germans.\nDR. BERGOLD:That might be arguable.\nMR. DENNEY:The witness may be excused if there is no further examination.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Yes, you may be excused.\n(Witness excuse)\nMR. DENNEY:I don't know whether or not Dr. Bergold has General Vorwald here.\nTHE PRESIDENT:This, I think, terminates the testimony of the French witnesses in the proceedings of the trial.\nMR. DENNEY:Yes, your Honor, please.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Dr: Bergold, will you look carefully and see whether you have General Vorwald.\nDR. BERGOLD:General Vorwald is not here as yet, as I learned from Mr. Jackson. However, I have a request, your Honor, I would appreciate if there would be no session tomorrow. You know what is worrying me now. Here I all day long in this court, and I have no possibility whatsoever to take care of my own personal affairs, particularly with regard to this thing that occurred today. Your Honor will understand that owing to my great concern with regard to family affairs, I would appreciate if there will be no session tomorrow, in order to cope with the difficulties which have befallen me at the present time.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Of course, if General Vorwald is not here tomorrow there would be nothing we could do anyway, and furthermore, you would have no time to talk to him. What do you think, Mr. Denney?\nMR. DENNEY:I find no reason to disagree with Dr. Bergold's request, your Honor, please.\nTHE PRESIDENT:It is a little difficult to make any plans because we do not know what happened to your last witness.", "speakers": [ "THE PRESIDENT", "A", "DR. BERGOLD", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2004, "page_number": "1585", "date": "06 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-06", "text": "I think if he is not here by Monday, you will have to proceed with the defendant's testimony, or some ether testimony, as we can not be delayed any longer waiting for this witness. Now on Monday morning we are to have the arraignment in another case which has been assigned to this Tribunal, and that will take perhaps an hour or an hour and a half. There are fifteen defendant but after that is over we will go ahead with this case at eleven o'clock and we shall go ahead whether Vorwald is here, or not. If he is not here you will have to be prepared to go ahead with whatever further testimony you propose to offer.\nThis Tribunal will now recess, and this case will recess until Monday morning at eleven o'clock. The Court will recess until Monday morning at 9:30 A.M.\nDR. BERGOLD:Thank you.\n(The Tribunal adjourned until 0930 hours, 10 March 1947)", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2005, "page_number": "1586", "date": "10 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-10", "text": "Official transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America against Erhard Milch, defendant, sitting at Nuernberg, Germany, on 10 March 1947, 1330, Judge Toms presiding.\nTHE MARSHAL:Military Tribunal No. 2 is in session. God save the United States of America and this honorable Tribunal. There will be order in the court.\nDR. BERGOLD:May it please the Tribunal, before I ask you to call the witness which we have waited for, the witness Vorwald, I would like to thank the Tribunal personally for having helped me and for having given me two days off in order to get rid of the difficulties I was in. I now ask to be allowed to call the witness Vorwald.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The Marshal will bring the witness Vorwald into the courtroom.\nThe witness will raise his right hand and repeat after me. Will you please raise your right hand?\nI swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.\n(The witness repeated the oath.)\nYou may be seated.\nDIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. BERGOLD:\nQ.Witness, I ask you to speak slowly, and after each question I put to you, I ask you to make a little, short pause before you answer, because it is necessary in order to enable the translators to finish the English translating of my questions.\nA.Yes.\nQ.Will you please state your full name.\nA.Wolfgang Vorwald.\nQ.When were you born, witness.\nA. 6 May 1899.\nQ.Where were you born?\nA.Beeskow in Der Mark.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "THE MARSHAL" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2006, "page_number": "1587", "date": "10 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-10", "text": "Q.Witness, what was your last position in the German Wehrmacht?\nA.Commander of the Luftgau VII, Munich.\nQ.Do you know the defendant Milch?\nA.Yes.\nQ.Can you spot him in the Tribunal - in the courtroom? In that case, I ask you to point to him in order to show you recognized him.\n(The witness pointed out defendant.)\nDR. BERGOLD:I ask that it be stated in the record that the witness has recognized the defendant.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The record will so state.\nBY DR. BERGOLD:\nQ.Since when Aid you know the defendant Milch?\nA.Since 1937 and not since 1941.\nQ.What position did you hold in 1937?\nA.In 1937 I was on duty in Wiesbaden and I met Field Marshal Milch there.\nQ.Witness, at that time did you especially notice Milch?\nA.Yes.\nQ.Will you please always make a short interval before you answer. Now, Please give us some more detailed information.\nA.During a conference Field Marshal Milch was present, and for about an hour I sat opposite him, and during this evening, during this time, Field Marshal Milch developed his plans for France. This I remember especially then, at that time.\nQ.What position, witness, did you hold in the year 1941?\nA.On the 3rd of November I was Chief of the Technical Office under Generaloberst Udet.\nQ.When did Milch succeed to the office of the GL?\nA.After Udet died, about 20 November 1941.\nQ.Please, witness, explain to the Tribunal what activities the Office C had at that tine in the framework of the Office of the GL.\nA.The Technical Office at that time was responsible for the development and supply and proving of apparatus of the Luftwaffe.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2007, "page_number": "1588", "date": "10 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-10", "text": "Q.Was there a difference in the sphere of work which the former office - that is, most of the time it was directed by Udet - did?\nA.The sphere of the work was the same, only the organization fundamentally had been changed; various sections responsible for proving, but now these sections were separated into development sections on the one hand and supply sections on the other hand. The testing was immediately subordinated to the Chief of the Technical Office.\nQ.And this chief of the Technical Office, so-called Office C, you were his chief, weren't you?\nA.Yes.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2008, "page_number": "1589", "date": "10 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-10", "text": "QOn this occasion I would also like to talk of the DVL. Do you know of the DVL, Witness?\nAYes.\nQWas the German experimentation station for navigation subordinate to the C office?\nANo.\nQWas the DVL an independent office or from what office did it depend otherwise?\nAIt was a registered association.\nQBut before that industry office there was an agency that was presided over by a certain Mr. Baeumker, an agency which had a certain supervision over the DVL?\nA.That was the former Section LC-1. Its task was the research. That is, they issued directives to the research department. At night time this department was despoiled and did not exist anymore.\nQBut at that time there was a so-called research council. Was that the agency which succeeded the LC-1, or was that something quite different?\nAThat was a new classification where the research council of the Luftwaffe was subordinate to the Reichsmarshall Goering immediately.\nQThat means that it was not subordinate to the GL?\nANo.\nQWhat was the importance and the field of tasks which this research council had? Did it receive directives from Goering or how do you conceive and describe its field of tasks?\nAYes, it became subordinate to Goering; and we also approached him with the request to take care of the research in special fields. That research department at the important developments of the GL mostly had sent one representative.\nQDuring these conferences did this man repeat directives and listen to what problems were of interest for the GL, and did he then on his own initiative start research?\nAHe did not receive any evidence but was requested to take interest in special fields in the Luftwaffe research which were important for the GL.", "speakers": [ "A", "A.", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2009, "page_number": "1590", "date": "10 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-10", "text": "QWitness, you see a chart here upon the wall, and on this chart this DVL is shewn at the left side under the name of Dr. Baeumker. Can you see that right on the edge of it? The left one is Ruff.\nAYes.\nQAnd there is a direct channel of orders. Do you see that? Was this draft the correct draft?\nANo, it is completely wrong.\nQI think you have already shown why it is wrong; or do you have anything to add?\nABaeumker was not in Berlin at all since 1941 but in Munich and was in one research institute. Beckmann and Christensen, who are on the top of this draft, were chiefs of the section on the master position.\nQDid you have any connection with the DVL in your capacity as a superior officer?\nANo, nothing at all.\nQWitness, since when was Milch concerned directly with the armament during the war?\nAFrom the 20th of November, 1941.\nQIn his capacity as GL, had he any connection with the Four Year Plan?\nANo.\nQYour agency, Sauckel and his offices, the different labor offices of the district, were they directly subordinate to Milch or to your own office?\nANo.\nQDid Milch or the GL have any connections with the execution of Sauckel's tasks, that is, the recruiting, the drafting, the transportation, the labor and everything else concerning the foreign workers? Did he have anything to do with that?\nANo.\nQWitness, now, referring to the fact that during the war there were several locations at which labor was needed, could you tell me now in what manner the air industry received its workers?", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2010, "page_number": "1591", "date": "10 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-10", "text": "AYes,After a plan on the recruitment, on the supply of aircraft and motors had been drafted and had been given to the aircraft industry, it was the task of the various plants which had to supply the workers necessary for this plan.", "speakers": [ "A" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2011, "page_number": "1592", "date": "10 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-10", "text": "They had to supply them to these labor offices. When they were unable to recruit these workers, they had in the course of their duty to send reports to the superior agencies and organizations in the GBA Sauckel. In the various Wehrkreise there were inspections of armaments which were immediately subordinate to the armament ministry; and their task was in proportion to the urgency of the plans of the Wehrmacht to bring about an adjustment of workers in their work and plans through a tour of inspection.\nQ.Witness, in what manner did the GL have anything to do with this question of labor?\nA.The GL was informed of the labor question as well as the raw material question by the aviation industry. These plans were given their requirements of raw material and workers to the GL. In the second draft when they were at the GL, that is, in the planning office, the GL, there was an office which took note of these affairs specifically for the various contracts with the aviation industry referring to payment; and it had to be tested in that sense with prices. It was also necessary that the number of the necessary workers had to be determined. This agency also chiefly took tasks which the office of labor supplied; and it served to the GL in that way. At discussions of Goering and Hitler over these workers, this question of workers was supported by them.\nQ.Why and in what manner did these supports come through?\nA.I remember that very often from the higher instances; that is, from Goering and Hitler we received instructions that Sauckel had brought in all the workers, saying, \"Why can't you carry out your program?\" Then in our information we said there was a possibility of trying it out to see whether Sauckel had actually supplied us workers or not. In most of the cases the labor had not been supplier. The figures which Sauckel gave were very doubtful to us from the very beginning.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2012, "page_number": "1593", "date": "10 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-10", "text": "QWhy and in what manner did that support for labor come through?\nAI remember that very often from higher instances, that is, from Goering and Hitler, we received instructions that Sauckel had brought in all the workers, so why can not you carry out your program, and then we called the information center when we had the possibility to try out and see whether Sauckel had actually supplied all the workers, or not. In most cases labor had not been supplied, and the figures which Sauckel rave were very doubtful there.\nQWitness, did you check these figures on raw material and workers, that is, the figures which came to you in from Sauckel. Did you check the necessity for the requirement of these laborers?\nAThat was not my task but the task of the plannint office, that is, Office A, and on this requirement of raw material I can not show it, because it does not exist there. It was this office's part to take care where the counting of raw material needs were necessary for the program, and also were the statistics of workers.\nQAnd these requirements, did the office check the requirements, and diminish it?\nAYes. That is, these raw material figures were counted very closely, and also the figures of labor were cheeked, because we had certain experiences, and know what the production of certain number of planes, or motors, would need; that is, how many laborers would be necessary, and this planning office, therefore, generally deducted some workers, and the figures which after wards were checked were figures of justified requirements of the industry, and we supported these figures in the higher instances, that is, in the ministry -- the armament Ministry.\nQYou speak of Armament Industry, that is Speer, isn't it?\nAYes.\nQTherefore, Speer had the last decision in these matters, that is of the raw material quantities, and of what members of labor would be granted for production. Did he have this last decision?\nATheArmament Ministry granted the raw materials, and it distributed this for the GL, that is, it gave the total amount to the GL, and the distribution in particular was carried out by the Planning Office.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2013, "page_number": "1594", "date": "10 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-10", "text": "So far as Labor is concerned, Speer -- that is the Armament Ministry had no authority, but it was the General Plenipotentiary of Labor, Sauckel, who had the authority.\nQWe already often have spoken here of the Armament Industry, and the GL, we have heard about it very often. Could you tell me in order to clarify this matter once and for all, what is the difference so far as you know where the authority is concerned, what is the difference between Speer's and Milch's?\nASpeer was theArmament and War Production Minister, and he was responsible for the total armament of the Navy, or the Army, and also for the ammunition production, of all the parts of the armed forces. The GL on the contrary was only responsible for the final armament for airplanes motors, airplane equipment, and also for a few special ammunitions for the aircraft. The Armament Ministry decreed that he had quite a great organization of many branches; on the one hand he had the authority in the civilian section, over all main councils and divisions, and, in every army district he had a plenipotentiary for armament which was under his direct supervision - - - who was under his direct supervision. The military sector of the Armament Ministry had the Armament Inspectorate, which was under its supervision. That machinery was not at the disposal at all of the GL.\nQDid Speer not have also, concerning the Luftwaffe, the authority in the Armament in sofar as he had the raw materials for semi-finished products?\nAYes, this was one of the main tasks, that is, the raw materials and the semi-finished products, because of the allotment of these two sectors always was important for the program - - decisive for the program.\nQIsn't it correct also that Speer's armament task also included the construction sector?\nAYes, Speer had his own construction sector, or construction offices, and also the whole organization -- the Todt Organization was subordinated to him.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2014, "page_number": "1595", "date": "10 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-10", "text": "QAs far as the direction of the armament tasks were concerned, from whom did Speer receive his orders and directives?\nADirectly from Hitler, sofar as I know, he went every week, at least once or twice, to Hitler in order to make an orderly report. We were very sorry to see that Goering did not take such an interest there, and Fieldmarshall Milch did not have permission of Goering to go to the Fuehrer directly.\nQCould you know, or point out to me the difference between Speer and Milch sofar as the armament tasks are concerned?\nATheArmament Minister Speer in contradiction with the GL had an official influence on the question of labor insofar as the Armament Industry had the Armament Inspectorate, which was subordinated to him; therefore, the armament Ministry could give orders to this Inspectorate, and that therefore, it was possible if the program was especially urgent, to give orders to the Armament Inspectorate that it should ship workers from one plant to another. For instance, to withdraw from the Navy factory workers and send them into the Army factory, and to withdraw workers from the Air Armament and send them into the Navy Armament. This authority was not the authority which the GL held.\nQWitness, it is not only a belief but actually occurred also that Speer took workers from you without having his permission confirmed previously?\nAYes, that had been done. It had been even often.\nQWas Milch connected in any way with prisoners of war?\nANo.\nQWhat were the channels of the orders, and who disposed of the prisoners of war?\nAAll prisoners of war, that is, prisoners of war in our part of the army force were subordinated to the OKW, and from the local viewpoint existing in Germany, they were subordinated to the deputy commander of the district.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2015, "page_number": "1596", "date": "10 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-10", "text": "Of these army commands, each of them had a special general who was in charge of the POW matters.\nQIf prisoners cf war were assigned its workers, on whose orders was that done, by the GL for the Army Air Armament, or by whom?\nANo, the GL had no authority to do it, but the workers were distributed by the General Plenipotentiary for labor) and the POW's were assigned by and were acquired by a plan for certain tasks and had to be accepted.\nQWas the GBA Command that caused that, or was it the Armament Command\nAI'll have to think it over, this organization. Insofar as I remember the assignment, the POW's in the industry was caused by Hitler himself, and the industry was forced to accept these POW's, but who actually procured the POW's I can not tell you. Anyhow, the GL and its organs had nothing to do with all those questions of laborers and of the POW's.\nQWitness, we just heard from you the difference between Speer and Milch in reference to the labor questions. Now Speer as a witness testified that Milch did not participate to present the recruitment of labor for the aircraft industry, is that correct? Is that correct?\nAThat is not correct. Can only be a question of supporting the requirement of labor by the industry during these programs, that is, at the armament Industry and the GBA.\nMR. DENNEY:Your Honor, I object to Dr. Bergold impeaching his own witness by calling another one. It so happens that the prisoner Speer gave some testimony which he did not like , so now he is trying to impeach Speer by asking this man whether or not what Speer said is true, which he can not do. He can ask what he knows, and tell him what Speer said and if that is right, and if it is proper.\nDR. BERGOLD:May it please the Tribunal. I have to say that in Germany it belongs to the basic right of a lawyer to put to the witness the testimony of another witness, and to have him take his position as to that testimony. If it should not be the customary law in America, then I ask the Tribunal again -", "speakers": [ "A", "DR. BERGOLD", "MR. DENNEY", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2016, "page_number": "1597", "date": "10 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-10", "text": "MR. DENNEY:I appreciate Dr. Bergold's lecture on German law -\nTHE PRESIDENT:Say it again.\nMR. DENNEY:I appreciate Dr. Bergold's lecture on the German law, but my impression would be the flag behind Your Honor is the one to govern, and not the one with the Swastika on it.", "speakers": [ "THE PRESIDENT", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2017, "page_number": "1598", "date": "10 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-10", "text": "THE PRESIDENT:Just a minute.\nDR. BERGOLD:It was also customary in the times of the Kaiser.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Well, I am afraid that it is customary in the United States. I know of no rule which forces a defendant to be bound entirely by the testimony of one witness so that the witness can not be contradicted by another. The form of Mr. Denney's objection is that one witness may not be confronted by the testimony of another and be asked whether or not it is un true. He can be asked however, \"Is that a fact?\" It is a rather nice distinction, sometimes without a difference. It is perfectly proper to state to a witness that another witness has stated certain facts, given certain testimony, and then to inquire of the second witness, \"Are those the facts?\" You may not say, \"Is he telling the truth?\" That is not permitted.\nDR. BERGOLD:I shall take notice of this difference in the future.\nBY DR. BERGOLD:\nQWitness, do you know whether Speer knew of the organization of the GL and knew it well?\nAAt the time we rather gained the impression that he did not know exactly the organization of the GL.\nQWitness, just before you said that the GL had no direct connection with Sauckel. Do you know that Sauckel was obliged to make monthly reports on his work to the GL?\nANo, I have no knowledge of that.\nQDid you have personal, connections in your office with Sauckel?\nANo, I had not.\nQCan you tell us how the labor entered into the aircraft industry?\nAAs far as I remember from my conferences with my colleagues of the Planning Office and also from the conferences with Field Marshal Milch at the GL, the labor situation during our activity -- that is, from 1941 to 1944-did not deteriorate. That is, the number of laborers did not increase. On the contrary, in cases of illnesses, the GBA had to cover these requirements, but the number of laborers was not improved or increased.\nQHow was this sphere of workmen in the armament industry?", "speakers": [ "A", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2018, "page_number": "1599", "date": "10 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-10", "text": "AWell, about 500,000.\nQWitness, we once talked about 2,000,000 workers in the aircraft industry.\nAThat figure can not be correct. If you speak of 2,000,000 you have to count all the other sectors which were not directly connected with the air industry; that is, ammunition, for instance.\nQDo you know that in the time before the war there was a statistical plan in which armament industries which were only part of the aircraft industry but also of the army, were incorporated in the aircraft industry?\nAYes, we always objected to this method of counting.\nQIn your opinion, what actually comprises the air craft industry?\nAFirst of all, the aircraft frameworks and the aircraft motor works; navigation instruments and radio instruments and other equipment of the aircraft, navigation instruments, and also small parts of the aircraft ammunition. That is, especially secret ammunition which could be produced only in special plants.\nQThis conception makes you think that the number of workers employed was 500,000?\nAYes.\nQAnd these workers also included foreign civilian workers; do you have knowledge of that?\nAYes, during my visits to the plants I have seen Russians and Frenchmen\nQWhat was the out-put of these foreign workers?\nAAs far as the work of the female Ukrainian workers especially, was concerned, the industry was full of eulogy.\nQDuring your visits did you speak to those people, asking them about their situation, their difficulties and complaints?\nAYes, I always did that, as an officer should do with his troops.\nQAnd what knowledge did you gain from these questions?\nAThese people were satisfied with their fate.After all, our aim was, above all, to increase the output, and, therefore, the Field Marshal and I always insisted on fulfilling the justified requirements of the industrial plants with respect to food and clothing and lodging for these workers.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2019, "page_number": "1600", "date": "10 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-10", "text": "In the beginning there were probably some difficulties, but later on we never had complaints insofar as this question was concerned.\nQDid you hear any complaints from those people concerning the manner in which they had been recruited abroad or the manner in which they had been brought to Germany?\nANo, I never heard any complaints.\nQDuring these visits at the plants, did Milch attend these visits, too?\nAVery often I was with him and went to these visits.\nQWhat conclusions did you draw from the fact that the output of these foreign workers was so satisfactory, as far as the conduct of foreign workers was concerned?\nAIf the output was so good as the plants told us, then the treatment of these foreign workers-- food and so on-- must have been good.\nQDuring these visits, did you see that foreign workers wore kept behind barbed wire?\nANo, that can not be correct either. I can recollect that in 1944 when we in Berlin had a Russian maid, that this girl could go into her camp every evening. At that camp she knew some people from her home place, and she met them there, and she often visited them.\nQDid you have knowledge that in the air armament there were POW's who were employed?\nAYes, we took them ever when we took over the office in 1941, and we found them at the time. They were already in the air armament.\nQCan you give an example of where you saw Russian prisoners of war?\nAIn the air factory Obertraubling near Regensburg.\nQWhat kind of airplanes were constructed there?\nABig transport planes, ME 323's, gliders which later on became a motor plane with six motors.\nQWas that a fighter plane?\nANo, I said that it was a mere transport for freight.\nQDid you hear anything about the output of these POW's? Did you receive reports?", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2020, "page_number": "1601", "date": "10 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-10", "text": "AYes, on the spot I talked to foremen and production managers, and they confirmed that these Russian workers were very good at their work. They had difficulties in the beginning, especially with translations of the technical terms, but afterwards they got along pretty well.\nQDid you hear anything of bad treatment of prisoners of war?\nANo, in our area we heard nothing like that.\nQBut, outside of the GL office, what did you hear about it?\nAOnly in 1941, after the first big battles in Russia, there were some talks in the headquarters in which I was at that time, that there was not enough food supply for the large number of POW's\nQWas that on purpose at that time?\nAI could not tell that.\nQWitness, you always talk of Russian prisoners of war. What do you know of Frenchmen?\nAThe French prisoners of war, we also had them.\nQDid you hear anything about mistreatment of these prisoners of war? Did you hear any complaints?\nANo.\nQDid you have anything to do with French civilian workers? You always talk of smaller groups.\nA.Yes. I know that, for instance, in the precision work of the metal works on air armament industries, which was a part of the Siemens plant in Berlin, Spandau, there wore French women workers.", "speakers": [ "A", "A.", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2021, "page_number": "1602", "date": "10 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-10", "text": "Q.But, did you hear any complaints about it?\nA.No.\nQ.Witness, you know the regulations of the Geneva Convention, don't you?\nA.Yes.\nQ.Concerning the employment of prisoners of war, did you have any doubts whether it was permissibly or not?\nA.Yes. This question approached me from the very moment, or when we took over the office, and I know that I discussed this point with Field Marshal Milch, and he told me at that time and advised me that the assignment of Russian POW's was done on the orders of Hitler, and in spite of that the Field Marshal told me why the chief of the planning office, that is General von Gablenz, brought the matter to the O.K.W. and had it checked over again and the matter was confirmed. These prisoners were not employed in the manufacture of Armaments and ammunition, weapons and ammunition, but as I said before in my example from Obertraubling, they were employed at the production of a transport plane.\nQ.Witness, is it correct that the G.L. had already also of course carried out the plans for the air armament?\nA.Yes. There was an agreement with the Vichy Government, and this agreement provided for an air armament program which showed a proportion of five to one, at least nominally, in favor of Germany and France and provided for a production of aircraft, but in reality this program was only executed in the proportion of one to one, but there also no war aircraft were produced but only the TU-52, for instance, which is decidedly a transport plane, and the TU-104.\nQ.Witness, the agreements with the French firm were they on a voluntary basis or was the French firm caused to have these agreements?\nA.They were agreements on a voluntary basis, yes. They were, for instance, that the general manager, Vernier, of the Gnome et Rhone firm in Paris came to Berlin once to see Field Marshall Milch and to discuss the product which was produced at his plant.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2022, "page_number": "1603", "date": "10 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-10", "text": "QWitness, do you know that some of these French plants, did they take orders away from you and without asking the G. L. ?\nAYes, We were very sorry to see that, but Sauckel recruited in these factories in which we had already work executed for the Luftwaffe, and this work was done by the Frenchmen, but he still recruited French workers in order to bring them to Germany. We had that through our liaison office, the liaison office of the G. L. at Paris, but we did not succeed in having these measures stopped, and the result was a decrease in the output at the French works.\nQWitness, as a result of that did the G/ L/ introduce a blockage of these firms, had it closed and turned them into the Speer teams which were protected factories?\nAYes, this expression \"protected factories\" originates from the Luftwaffe, and later on it was adopted by Speer for the production which was under his orders.\nQThat means that in the Luftwaffe you really introduced before Speer these so-called protected factories?\nAYes.\nQWitness, you just spoke of a liaison office of the G. L. at Paris. I would be interested to know whether Milch could give orders to the military commanders or the civilian agencies in the occupied territories if possible. Why was this liaison office?\nANo, this liaison staff was only a technical matter. It was for the French work. This liaison office included the construction inspectorates of the Luftwaffe in these works.\nQTherefore, he had no authority to issue orders to these agencies\nANo.\nQDid the G. L. or Milch have any authority to punish the workers in the air armament?\nANo.\nQAnd over the prisoners of war?", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2023, "page_number": "1604", "date": "10 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-10", "text": "ANo.\nQWitness, is it correct to say that the planning office, the socalled office A, did have difficulties with Speer concerning the labor question?\nADifficulties were constantly arising.\nQWitness, do you have any knowledge or information in general concerning the treatment of the foreign workers in Poland, or in Russia, did you receive any information on that, or concerning France?\nANo.\nQDo you know anything on the secret orders which were ordered byHimmler or his subordinate agencies?\nANo.\nQDo you know anything about the reports of Rosenberg on the mistreatment of foreign workers?\nANo.\nQDid Milch ever tell you that he had received such reports?\nANo.\nQWitness, shortly after, on the 4th of November, 1941, after you had turned over the C office to Udet on the 7th of November, 1941, who had a discussion with Goering on the utilization of Russian prisoners of war, were you present at this meeting or did you hear about this meeting?\nANo.\nQThis meeting, was that within the framework of R. L.\nAI didn't hear anything about this meeting, but if it is a question of assignment of P. O. W's then I could only imagine that Goering, in his capacity of plenipotentiary for the four-year plan, made a speech.\nQYou mentioned before, Witness, if I understood you correctly, that you had Ukrainian workers in your household?\nAYes, that is correct.\nQNow, the directives from the labor front concerning the treatment of the Ukrainian house personnel, for instance, when they have their free time, when they are not allowed to go to the cinema, when they have follows, did you know about this directive when you employed this maid?", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2024, "page_number": "1605", "date": "10 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-10", "text": "ANo.\nQA while ago you already told us that this maid could go out and could go and visit some friends?\nAYes.\nQDid you also know whether she was allowed to go to the movies?\nAWe didn't prohibit and we didn't forbid her to go to the movies.\nQBut you didn't hear whether she went to the movies or not?\nANo.\nQWould it have been possible to the G. L. to prevent your employment of foreign workers or .P O. W.'s?\nANo, that was impossible, because otherwise we would have even still less workers than we already had.\nQThat is a technical question. If theoretically the G. L. would have refused their employment what would have happened?\nAEverybody would have said, \"Well, the G. L. has already enough of that, enough workers.\nQWitness, did you have any knowledge that also inmates of concentration camps were employed?\nAThat is in the air armament? Yes, I had knowledge that at Heinkel Oranienburg the employment of concentration camp inmates took place.\nQDid the G. L. request these people, or how did it come about that they were employed?\nANo, they were not requested by the G. L., but during a conference it was seen, a conference with the director of Oranienburg Heinkel, it was seen he had the possibility of getting these people.\nQDid you know that Goering and Himmler had discussed and reached an agreement concerning the employment of the concentration camp inmates?\nANo.\nQBut Himmler sent a report, an important report, on the employment of concentration camp inmates in the air armament. Did you or the F. L. have any knowledge of this report?\nANo.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2025, "page_number": "1606", "date": "10 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-10", "text": "QYou know, that is I think you know, do you know that Sauckel had an agreement with the German Labor Front concerning the care after the camps of the foreign workers?\nANo, I have no knowledge of that, but I suppose so because the German Labor Front after all also took care of the other camp.\nQAnd why did it happen, in order to have a strong authority over the workers, or rather, why?\nAAccording to my opinion that was only a care measure.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2026, "page_number": "1607", "date": "10 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-10", "text": "Q.Witness, did you have any knowledge that in the Air Armament foreigners had been hanged or shot or beaten or mistreated?\nA.No, I have no of that.\nQ.Did you have any knowledge of the fact that POW's had been shot in the Air Armament?\nA.Yes, there was one case of which I had knowledge, and that was the case -- if I remember -- the case in Obertraubling near Regensburg in the same plant which I mentioned before. At that plant, I think it was in February, '44, during the night the engineer on duty rang up -- I think he was of the OKL, and he said that the Fuehrer had ordered that two Russians who had tried to escape from Obertraubling, that these two Russians were to be shot, and had been shot. And I remember that I received this report in the morning and that I passed it on to the Field Marshal Milch right away as a special occurrence.\nI myself was rather excited about it because this had not been reported to me directly by the construction inspectorate which I had in Obertraubling, but I received the report from the OKL -- Supreme Command of the Luftwaffe -and the Field Marshal himself was rather aroused especially because -- and I remember that he said that it is the right of the prisoner of war to escape; they cannot be shot for that. There will be difficulties about that.\nQ.Witness, you just said you had construction inspectorates. Does that concern the buildings or is that rather the construction of aircraft?\nA.No, that is the construction of aircraft. That is an agency perhaps to receive the constructed aircraft or tho parts of the aircraft, and they have to check the technical efficiency of these parts and have to admit them or reject them and to certify to the plant that the work is good and that this plane can be accepted.\nQ.And this construction inspectorate should have reported this escape right away on its own initiative?\nA.Yes, because this construction inspectorate, which was locally in the different plants of the aircraft industry, this inspectorate might be said to be a liaison organ between my own office and this plant, and they had directives, my orders, which I had issued to report on all happenings in this plant which could have an effect on the production according to the program; that is, for instance, if the raw material distribution stopped, and in that case it had to be reported right away that it was caused by the fact that they had no aluminum or no iron in order to enable me to take the necessary steps right away, the steps with the competent authorities in order to fill this gap.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2027, "page_number": "1608", "date": "10 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-10", "text": "Q.Witness, do you know that in 1934 there was another escape of prisoners of war and these prisoners of war tried to escape with an aircraft?\nA.Yes, that happened in France. I think that a British pilot actually escaped in an ME 109.\nQ.Do you know anything of the escape from Prenzlau in the Uckermark?\nA.Yes, also this case succeeded. In this case the escape succeeded also.\nQ.You mean that the prisoners of war escaped?\nA.Yes.\nQ.This shooting of the two Russian officers, was that the only case which you know, a case in which prisoners of war had been shot or hanged?\nA.Yes, the only case. By the way, I remember that in the report it was said that Hitler had wanted to hang these people formerly in the assemblage hall, but then he only insisted upon their being shot.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Shall we take our recess, Dr. Bergold?\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes.\nTHE MARSHAL:This Tribunal will be in recess for fifteen minutes.\n(Recess was taken.)", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "THE MARSHAL" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2028, "page_number": "1601", "date": "10 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-10", "text": "THE MARSHAL:Tribunal Number II is again in session.\nDIRECT EXAMINATION (Resumed) BY DR. BERGOLD:\nQ.Witness, I shall now come back to those Russian officers. Is it a fact and is it correct that in connection with the flight of these Russian officers the GL was reproached by Hitler?\nA.Yes, considerably so.\nQ.Witness, can you tell me anything about the fact that Mr. Milch had suggested the shooting of these Russian prisoners to the Fuehrer?\nA.I already mentioned before that the report concerning the shooting came from the OKL. It was mentioned there that the Fuehrer had already ordered to have them shot. In other words, there was no possibility whatsoever for the Fieldmarshal Milch to do anything about it.\nQ.When you reported to Milch, did. you have the impression that he knew about it already or were you under the impression that was the first time that he was being informed of that matter?\nA.No, I was under the impression that I was the first one who reported this matter to him.\nQ.Witness, these foreign laborers, how were they treated by the GL in general? Was the GL interested in abusing them or exploiting them?\nA.The GL was interested in an increase of output. Consequently, they had to see to it that these foreign laborers were given more food and better treatment.\nQ.Witness, how were the working hours within the air armament industry?\nA.Approximately eight to nine hours a day.\nQ.Isn't it correct that later on longer working hours were ordered namely, up to fourteen hours?\nA.Yes, namely, then the Jaegerstab took over.", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "A.", "Q." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2029, "page_number": "1610", "date": "10 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-10", "text": "Q.What was Milch's opinion and the position that he took toward these working hours?\nA.He was against it because during previous trials to increase the working hours, it had been proved that generally speaking there would be a big decrease of output if the working hours were extended to a greater amount.\nQ.Who then insisted on issuing a fourteen hour working period in the Jaegerstab?\nA.Mr. Sauer was the man who did that.\nQ.If the air armament industry required or requested workers through the working offices, the labor offices, and if they received orders, did the GL contrive to get foreign labor?\nA.No. On the contrary, they were always interested in getting as many skilled workers as possible and mostly Germans.\nQ.Were foreign laborers actually asked for?\nA.No.\nQ.Do you know of any steps of Mr. Milch to receive German laborers?\nA.Yes, he tried that repeatedly.\nQ.What efforts were made? How did he try to get those German workers?\nA.I do not quite know how to answer this question of yours.\nQ.By what means did he try to get these laborers, these German laborers, or at least try to keep them?\nA.With his confidences and conversations with Speer and with his request to Goering.\nQ.Do you know-- and I want to ask you precisely now--that he freed people who had to go the the Wehrmacht and that he kept them in the air armament industry?\nA.Yes. I do remember that now. We tried several times to keep German skilled workers from the OKW; in other words, to free them from there and to get them back to our armament staff. Many actions like that were started, for engineers, constructors, as well as for skilled workers.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2030, "page_number": "1611", "date": "10 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-10", "text": "Q.Can you remember figures? Were these figures rather high or low?\nA.Yes, I do. I remember that the number 40,000 was mentioned once and also the number of 60,000.\nQ.Witness, what was the air armament situation towards the end of 1941 compared with the enemy armament status?\nA.Towards the end of 1941 what we found was desperate. If I may go into details and state here figures, in the field of bombers there were no bombers whatsoever. There were hardly any new types of bombers. The destroyers, also the ME-110, were rather limited; and the ME-210 was not ready. On the contrary, all of the tests which were carried out led to new accidents. The plane tipped. In other words, it could not be used for the front. The new four-engine bomber which had been asked for a long time before was not being developed but was the HE-177.\nIn the field of engines an increase of output for the fighters was necessary, for the ME-109 and the Focke Wulf 190. Both engines, the DB-605, and the GMBH-01, were only used at the front towards the earlier part of 1942 but unfortunately with many mistakes. The troop and its confidence could only be satisfied or restored with special new actions. That is as far as the development field was concerned. Productively at the time when we took ever the armament, 760 to 800 planes were finished per month. That was towards the end of 1941. Amongst them there were only 200 fighters per month. It was clearly to be seen that this situation had to be eliminated as soon as possible if catastrophe were not to take place. The figures which we knew in particular concerning the efforts of the enemy countries in the production of four-engine bombers were a signal for us, particularly in the field of defense. In other words, concerning fighters and night fighters, considerable efforts were to be made by us in order to increase both planes and numbers. That was the situation as we found it towards the end of 1941 after the death of Udet.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2031, "page_number": "1612", "date": "10 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-10", "text": "", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2032, "page_number": "1613", "date": "10 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-10", "text": "Q.In other words, is this correct, that the enemy armament staff was very well known to you?\nA.Yes.\nQ.Witness, these figures that were then known, were they believed by the majority of higher officials, in other words, Goering or Hitler?\nA.No, they were never believed. I remember I can recall a conference in the office of Goering, that conference probably took Place in January 1943, or early in January. In other words, one year a ter I had taken over that office, that the Field Marshal and myself went to tell Goering about the technical development and the position of supply. The conference as planned was held for several hours, and took place at Goering's working office. Apart from this, Major Giesing was present there, who was at that time technical expert of Goering. After we had presented the case to him, the Field Marshal, namely Milch, went on to tell him that it was known to us concerning the output of the production of the enemy, and he had a special folder with him, and he went to Goering, where Goering was sitting, and started speaking. Hardly had Goering heard anything about the figures which Milch presented to him, then he said, word for word, \"Well, Milch, are you also among the defeatists? Do you believe in those fantastic figures, for only these people can only cook the water? Leave me alone from all that stuff,\" and that is how we were dismissed.\nQ.Did Milch insist on a higher output of fighters during the conference?\nA.Yes, we tried to do that ever since the beginning when we took over the office. To eliminate that last remark I can say that in November 1941, the General Staff, in other words, both Hitler and Goering had released a figure of three-hundred sixty fighters in a month for 1942, and had asked for such a figure.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2033, "page_number": "1614", "date": "10 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-10", "text": "This figure seemed, to us much too low, knowing the figures which the enemy could produce, and that is how the Field Marshal, namely Milch, at that time told me immediately, if this general staff does not want to have them we will produce immediately double the amount of fighters and we shall put it in : our program, and next year there must be fifteen-hundred planes, and in 1943 have to reach the figure of threethousand per month, three-thousand fighter planes.\nQ.Is that correct, that Milch the Armament Industry based itself on a defensive armament?\nA.Yes. According to my opinion he was right, he recognized the situation correctly.\nQ.When Milch took over the GL, did he create a new organization? When did that happen?\nA.The new organization was necessary, and with respect to the divisions, particularly, that division interest in technique to direct them in one single track. First of all the organization had to be very clear in order to draw the lines between the responsibilities. That is why the branching of my office differed in contract with that before, which had been taken up in the following way: that the development of supply and testing were treated separately, and they only could come to me. I was the head.\nQ.This position of the GL, did they increase the output, and did they try to reach a better quality or quantity, or, did Milch consider a means to enslave more rigidly these foreign laborers?\nA.What Milch's consideration to do was to increase the output and to increase the output of material for the fighting front.\nQ.Witness, before you have testified here that within the actual air armament there was also a factory of special ammunitions, which you said before was very secret. Do you know for what these special factories of foreign workers or prisoners of war were used?\nA.No, that was absolutely forbidden. There was a special secret production of ammunitions which was only known to and produced by the Germans, and even these Germans were selected specially for the task.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2034, "page_number": "", "date": "10 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-10", "text": "Q.Witness, within the framework of the GL, were political, or the prisoners of war being forced to work in ammunition factories?\nA.No.\nQ.Did the GL have anything to do with the normal ammunition?\nA.No, they were only under the Ministry of Armament.\nQ.Were they ever forced by the G1 to load bombers?\nA.No. The GL had nothing to do either with loading the bombers, or planes.\nQ.Do you know that Russian prisoners of war were used on ack-ack guns, or anti-aircraft guns?\nA.Yes, I do, and in my position which I took up later on as head of the Luftgeu, I had the ack-ack under my orders, and on every battery there were ten to twenty Russians, volunteers we called them.\nQ.Do you know what Milch's attitude was concerning this use of prisoners of war on tho ack-ack or anti-aircraft guns?\nA.I know that the Fieldmarshal, namely Milch, reported to me concerning this matter when these Russian volunteers, or aids, were used on the ack-ack; to some extent they were namely withdrawn from their work in the Armament, and thus we lost a certain number of workers.\nQ.What was Milch's attitude?\nA.He was against the use of those prisoners on the ack-ack.\nQ.Can you tell me if ever he said anything concerning these POWs, that they were shooting at their own people. What did he say about that?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2035, "page_number": "1616", "date": "10 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-10", "text": "A.He was against this whole business.\nQ.Can you remember if he ever used an expression at the time, \"That is a dirty trick to get these prisoners shooting at their own people.\"\nA.I remember he was very cross when this decision was made .\nQ.He himself, in other words, did not order it?\nA.No.\nQ.Was the ach-ach at all under his command?\nA.No.\nQ.Did you have anything to do with the Central Planning as such?\nA.No, in my position as chief of the technical division, no. However, I know from various things that Milch told me concerning those conferences of the Central Planning Board, I only know of the questions regarding the raw-material.\nQ.According to Milch's conversations, as you recollect, what was the task of the Central Planning Board?\nA.Distribution of raw materials, namely, according to Hitler's figures concerning urgency steps, the relative production of raw material was distributed to the various branches of the service.\nQ.Do you know anything with respect to how the Central Planning Board had to do with, or dealt with the workers?\nA.No. I only heard about raw material, that is all.\nQ.Do you know about the fact if the Central Planning Board was in charge of the Armament and War Economy?\nA.No, I did hot know that.\nQ.Did the Planning Board ever carry out such a task?\nA.No, as far as I know concerning this matter, the Planning Board only took care of the distribution of raw material.\nQ.Witness, did Milch once make admission of the fact that these Russian prisoners of war could not possibly be forced to work in industry by giving them more food, but they should be used in the agriculture for a little while?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2036, "page_number": "1617", "date": "10 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-10", "text": "AYes, I do remenber that.\nQWhat was the purpose of it all?\nAFor their work out in the country they were to rest, and to regain strength. At that time they had decided to send people to agriculture, and later on we were to receive them back.\nQDo you know that in the industry there was a so-called Workers Protection Organization?\nAYes.\nQCan you tell me what that was for?\nAThe Werkschutz had a similar task, namely, the guarding of the whole place where the factory was at, and also the guiding of incoming people, and also the guarding of secret factories. Apart from that the air-raid precaution, and that of fire guarding.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2037, "page_number": "1618", "date": "10 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-10", "text": "QDid it have the task of guarding the camps of foreign workers or PW camps?\nANo.\nQDo you know anything about the fact that very often a better use of shirkers or slackers was striven for?\nAI know this statement from many GL conferences we had. By that they meant those German workers or laborers who were not willing to work and thus jumped from one factory to another and did not want to work.\nQDo you know anything about the fact that Milch, GL, saw to it that those shirkers and slackers were sent to concentration camps to be educated by Himmler?\nANo.\nQDid the GL ever do anything against these slackers?\nANo. That was not its task either.\nQDid you ever hear that Milch ever sent foreign laborers or German workers to concentration camps?\nANo.\nQDid he have the power to do that?\nANo.\nQHow would Milch have had to ask for this to happen -- through what channels ?\nAHe would have had to go through Goering.\nQIs it not correct that the channel downwards would have gone through you? I mean concerning the armament industry, if something had been ordered.\nAIf such an order had been given, then it would have had to go through me in order to go outside, because I was the man who was in charge of correspondence with the industry, liaison with the industry.\nQSuch an order never went through you, did it?\nANo.\nQDo you think that Milch would have gone over your head and issued such an order?", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2038, "page_number": "1619", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "ANo, not at all.\nQIs it correct that within the RLM and the GL Milch was known for following the regular channels accurately?\nAYes, he always used those channels when I was there.\nQWas the industry directly under Milch.\nANo, it was not under Milch.\nQWas it under you?\nANo, it was not under me either. Concerning the industry, we had contracts with the industry which were actually based on a voluntary basis. We could not give them any orders.\nQWhat do you know concerning sabotage and espionage in German industry within the last years of the war? Was it very frequent, or not too frequent?\nAIt occurred very seldom. I believe that it increased toward the end, but I myself know of only two cases.\nQIs it correct that when such sabotage took place, Hitler and Goering held the GL and its official clerks responsible for that?\nAYes.\nQDo yon know that Milch, when such sabotage was reported, very often saw to it that these sabotage cases were not considered sabotage cases?\nAYes. During the construction of planes many things happened which were actually slight mistakes and not sabotage, but omissions, for instance. If some sort of a tool remains on a fuselage or a wing, this can not be considered sabotage. It would be sabotage only when they used a special apparatus in order to destroy the steering mechanism of those planes, but I don't think that that ever happened.\nQWere these acts of sabotage ever reported?\nAThe persons concerned were very careful about that and did rather announce less than more. However, during their later investigations, they did show that they were omissions rather than sabotage.\nQCan you tell me about the general attitude of Milch; I mean, after a few years passed by, was he very much excited about the heavy airraids, etc.?", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2039, "page_number": "1620", "date": "10 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-10", "text": "AThese heavy airraids on our industrial works and later on the heavy airraids on our cities showed him that he had been right in his opinion when he took over the office. He had made a statement -- and that statement was correct -- and it greatly disappointed him that his proposals had not been realized. In other words, that from an aggressive war they had jumped to a defensive war. It actually gave him much to think about, just as it made us all nervous. From day to day the factories were being destroyed more and more, and the transportation facilities for material were more and more difficult.\nQTell me, witness, is it correct that Milch was during such moods -that he used very strong words?\nAYes, he was known for that, but, as we knew him, we knew exactly that we should not take him too seriously in his remarks. As far as I am concerned, I had a very similar temperament myself, and I acted accordingly. We said many things that we did not carry out later on.\nQDid that occur much more frequently after his accident in Stalingrad?\nAYes.After that accident in Stalingrad, there was an increase of those expressions of indignation. However, we got along fine, always at all times.\nQConcerning these outbursts, did they come through in a greater circle of collaborators and did they lead to an acute sentiment toward the foreign laborers or PW's?\nANo, I don't think so.\nQCan you judge Milch's character? Is he a kind hearted man or a hard hearted man?\nAGenerally speaking, a kind hearted man. He is, in a way, like a tack that is very soft.\nQDo you know anything about the fact that Milch before the Russian campaign had warned that this Russian campaign should not be carried out?\nAYes, he told me that once. That was once when I went to visit him in his home. He visited Goering and tried to see Hitler in order to give an oral report on this matter. At that time, as he told me, he said that the whole enterprise would end with the collapse of Germany, so to say, and he wanted to warn Hitler. Goering, however, did not permit him to visit Hitler or look up Hitler.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2040, "page_number": "1621", "date": "10 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-10", "text": "QDo you know that Milch after Stalingrad had a conference with Hitler and explained to him that the war was lost and that Hitler should conclude a peace?\nAYes, I do. He told me about that too. That was after his mission at Stalingrad was finished. That was only in March, 1943. The whole conference last for one hour. During that conference, he told Hitler all the truth about Stalingrad and tried to explain to Hitler that if the war were to continue in the same manner, it would be lost for Germany. He allegedly proposed to Hitler to cease the attacks in the Hast and to roll back the front to the Dnieper and to go into a built-out defense position and fortified position. Furthermore, ho told him to dismiss Field Marshal Keitel and to use a special commander in chief of the Hast and in the West, and, due to the increased attacks or air raids, to go over to a defensive position in the air and to increase the production of fighters which were necessary for that, and to forget about bombers.\nI know that Field Marshal Milch at that time was very much depressed. He came back very much depressed after that conference with Hitler. He personally did not believe that Hitler would draw the necessary conclusions from this report. As it actually happened later on, Hitler did not draw the necessary conclusions.\nQDo you know that he said that Ribbentrop should be dismissed, or that he tried to get him released?\nAYes, he tried; he did.\nQDo you know that he proposed to conclude peace with France?\nAYes. He tried that repeatedly.\nQDo you remember that later on, when there was very great damage, he was sorry that Hitler had not followed his suggestion?\nAYes\nQDo you know that he mentioned at that time that the old boundaries with France should be used and that no territorial demands should be made on France.\nAYes.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2041, "page_number": "1622", "date": "10 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-10", "text": "QFitness, one more question. Do you remember, concerning the famous happening at Compiegne, that he was invited there?\nAYes, he was invited there. However, he did not go because in 1938 he had met the French Air Minister, together with a couple of other officers in Berlin, and. he did. not want to humiliate him.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2042, "page_number": "1623", "date": "10 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-10", "text": "QDid he think that treatment was wrong?\nAYes, indeed.\nTHE PRESIDENT:We are not quite clear what you meant by the famous event or happening. That was the French surrender at Compiegne?\nDR. BERGOLD:That is a tricky word which I used. You\nDR. BERGOLD:That is a tricky word which I used. You will remember that Hitler's campaign used the wagon which General Foch used in 1918 in order to sign the Armistice, and hitler had blown up the F& ch memorial. You know that it was some way of mine to snow you my criticism of that matter. At that time there was a considerable stir all over the world about that train.\nQ (By Dr. Bergold) Witness, I wish now to come back to the records of all the sessions which were made. Do you know if any of these records were ever reviewed?\nAThese records could never be checked, even by the Field Marshall, but we could review them, the Field Marshall and myself, after the sessions. That is why it was done in the following manner, that these verbatim records, namely an excerpt of the most important things that had been decided on during the session, and sent to all those concerned and interested. This record, that excerpt of the record, I always reviewed myself before it went out. However, we had so much work to do that these thick records, that were that thick, could not be read.\nQDo you know that there were many mistakes in those records, inaccuracies?\nAYes, indeed. If we had to check up on something and we were trying to find a certain passage we noticed that some thing had been recorded wrong, which, considering the fact that those sessions were so long, was not surprising at all.\nQWitness, you spoke of the work you had. You had too much work you said, Can you tell me how many signatures approximately a day Milch had to give?", "speakers": [ "A", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2043, "page_number": "1624", "date": "10 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-10", "text": "AI can only judge it from the fact as to how many I had to sign. There were approximately five to six hundred signatures a day, and I am sure that the Field marshal Milch himself had more than that.\nQDo you know whether in the evening, after the end of the work hours he took several cases with work and signatures home in order to be able to sign them there?\nAYes, I saw that several times, because I was in his room very often when he was about ready to go home, The driver came out, came upstairs, and took those cases which were filled with documents and reading material, took them down, and I also saw that several times in the morning, early in the morning when the driver brought back these cases with the documents, back to the office. That was not possible to be done in any other way because during the day he only had time for conferences and discussions.\nQWitness, do you know that very often during conferences the stenotypist was given instructions as to removing certain strong words used there criticizing Hitler or Goering, or to change them?\nAYes, I do. I saw that happen once, several tines rather, sometime ago.\nQWitness, I shall come back to those strong expressions used by Milch. Do you know that in the German army if anything goes wrong, if a responsible man was looked for, he will be hanged?\nAYes, we said that very often without actually thinking of carrying out that threat.\nQCan it be said then it was only a strong expression or an expression of indignation which, for instance, as some times you say in the American army, \"Go to hell\"?", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2044, "page_number": "1625", "date": "10 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-10", "text": "A.That is about the same. In our army we used to say, \"This guy should be hanged.\"\nQ.When Milch used such an expression of indignation did it ever happen that he apologized later on?\nA.Yes, he apologized later on.\nQ.Witness, were you present during the address to the oberquartiermeister and the air fleet engineers of the 25th of January, 1944 -\nA.Yes.\nQ.That was a biting speech, wasn't it? Here strong words used there?\nA.Yes, that was a state of affairs when the air raids were taking place day by day and night by night, and after several factories could no longer be used and parts were being sought for, and the conference had the purpose to get from the quarter masters and engineers of the air fleet the material, which was at their disposal. Many spare parts for airplanes at that time were already with the troops, and we needed those parts urgently in older to rebuild planes and to complete them which were under construction, and that was a very strong appeal to these people, to the troops, to the industry, or rather to the troops to help the industry with spare parts.\nQ.How can you explain then that he used strong words with reference to foreign laborers and laborers, how can you explain that, was that in the whole attitude, in the whole mood?\nA.I do not know of anything, that such strong expressions were used against labor as far as I know. He spoke against the bureauocracy, because all the offices, the troops held on to those spare parts and wouldn't hand them out. That had nothing to do with the laborers themselves. I only remember that he used strong words against the and the quartermasters.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2045, "page_number": "1626", "date": "10 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-10", "text": "DR. BERGOLD:You may translate that expression literally.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Can we understand the translation was not literal? It is just as well.\nBY DR. BERGOLD:\nQ.Witness, can you tell me now what consideration led to the creation of the fighter staff?\nA.All the efforts made by the Field Marshal and his subordinate chiefs of offices did not have the result which was to be expected. Higher up in contradiction with every reason no great program had been ordered, but again and again they came back to the bomber program, and that constant struggle in which this field marshal was with Goering and Hitler and later on also with Speer and all his subordinate division chiefs in order to increase the fighter production, at least to be able to stop the air raids on the industry and the population, at least to reduce them if not stop them, finally in 1941 moved them to withdraw from the responsibility of air industry, air armament, as his immediate resignation during the war could not be considered and expected. The Field Marshal tried as he told me. He tried to do it in this way. That concerned the responsibility for the production of planes through the proposal of the fighter staff and that he got rid of it. He only wanted to keep for the air force the development and the testing of planes, engines and mechanisms, but as far as the production was concerned he wanted to place this into the hands of Speer.\nQ.For the purpose, of that transfer, did he use a man from the Speer Ministry who was responsible for all these difficulties which arose? Who was it?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2046, "page_number": "1627", "date": "10 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-10", "text": "A.Mr. Sauer.\nQ.Is it correct that he always would remain away from the conferences of Jaegerstab, that he sent his deputy there more often?\nA.Yes. At the beginning he used to go there very often but then later on less frequently. Then he no longer participated in these conferences.\nQ.When did Milch entirely resign or withdraw from the air armament?\nA.That was at the same time when I withdrew, that must have been around the 20th of June, 1944. June, that is correct.\nQ.Later on was there a great transfer necessary or had the Jaegerstab already been carried out?\nA.The Jaegerstab had already been carried out at that time. A major transfer was not necessary, particularly considering the fact that the division chief of the planning office became the major chief of the technical air armament about six or eight months later. He was in charge of the office and all the conferences and sessions of the G. L. and the fighter staff. In other words, he knew all about it.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2047, "page_number": "", "date": "10 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-10", "text": "Q.Witness, do you know who asked for the underground transfer of the Armament Industry?\nA.Yes, I believe that Hitler, together with Goering, had discussed that and had ordered that.\nQ.Do you know what Mileh's attitude was towards that?\nA.It was clear to both him and us that the time factor had come too late and that these factories could no longer be finished before the end of the war. As it actually was later the case, they were not completed.\nQ.Does that apply to the cement factories?\nA.Yes.\nQ.Whom were they ordered by?\nA.Also by Goering and Hitler.\nQ.Will you describe to us now how the Jaegerstab functioned and how it was set up?\nA.There were a few constant members in that fighter staff, Jaegerstab, and during all sessions these people from the Speer Ministry and the GL, also from the Air Industry, were called to attend or to discuss a point which had to be decided upon. The decision did not go from the Jaegerstab to the respective offices, but that person of the Armament Industry Speer or the GL asked for that via his assistant.\nQ.Is it correct that those conferences always started with a general address and then went into a group of small sessions?\nA.Yes, the Jaegerstab, every eight or fourteen or fifteen days, took a trip into a certain territory. All the people necessary for that task from the industry of economy, from the political leadership, and from armament inspectorates, etc. were used. At the beginning the Field Marshal always made the speech concerning the seriousness of the military situation, and what efforts would be necessary. Then Sauer took it over and after Sauer's speech the conference was distributed in small working discussions; in other 1628 words, raw material, construction, labor assignments, air raid precautions, etc.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2048, "page_number": "1629", "date": "10 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-10", "text": ", etc.\nQDuring those single conferences did Milch always participate?\nAWe never participated in these single conferences because they only concerned certain fields.\nQDid the Jaegerstab men recruit foreign laborers from the foreign countries or draft them?\nANo, it did not have the authority to do so, nor the newer to do so.\nQDid the Jaegerstab change anything on the GBA?\nANo, everything remained the same.\nQOr then on the concentration come factories which belonged to Himmler?\nANo, not that I know of.\nQ.When these construction plans had been carried out by the Organization Todt, did the Jaegerstab or the GL have any possibility to influence them with respect to laborers?\nANo, the OT was immediately under Speer.\nQDo you know anything about Kammler or that Himmler or Hitler had assigned him to work in their subterranean factories?\nAI remember that Kammler went on part of the trip with us and ate with us on that trip.\nQDo you know that Hitler, concerning the construction of bunkers, had used one hundred thousand Jewish concentration camp inmates?\nADuring my inspection together with Gauleiter Giessler and the Munich Gauleiter Schreier, I heard about that.\nQWhen was that?\nAThat was in October or November 1944.\nQMilch at that time had already resigned from the GL?\nAYes, that was a matter which had nothing to do with the GL, because I, in my position of commander, discussed that matter together with the Gauleiters who had been invited, together with me.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q.", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2049, "page_number": "1630", "date": "10 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-10", "text": "QHerr Schmelter deposed that Jewesses were used in the manufacture of planes. Do you know anything about it?\nANo, I don't. During my inspection tours I never saw any.\nQWould that have become known to you in your position?\nAYes, I am sure that would have become known to me.\nQIn one of the teletypes of February 14, 1944, Goering asked from Himmler for concentration camp inmates for the air armament. Did the GL know about that letter?\nAI cannot recall this letter.\nQWho was responsible for these cement constructions? Who was responsible for them, the GL or the Jaegerstab?\nAIt was Speer with his Organization Todt, OT.\nQThe Central Planning once sent to the armament staff a special steel contingent. Was that for construction work for the OT or for planes?\nAThat could only have been used for the construction of planes because we had nothing to do with other sorts of construction.\nQWhat do you know, generally sneaking, about what the construction manager had to do with the steel contingent?\nASomebody was to carry cut a construction.Acertain contingent was given.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2050, "page_number": "1631", "date": "10 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-10", "text": "to him and he, the person, was charged with it.\nQ.One was charged with it. Whom do you mean by one was charged with it?\nA.The construction manager the nan requesting the construction.\nQ.If the GL asked for such construction, then the GL would have been charged with it?\nA.Yes. Well, just about, or the Luftwaffe.\nQ.What did you do about it? When did the GL start with the transfer on the surface?\nA.We started our transfer on the surface, as far as I con remember, after the first daylight attack of the American Air Force on the Messerschmitt Factory at Regensburg. At this present moment, however. I cannot remember the exact date. It must have been towards the end of 1942. However, I can be wrong. It night be early in 1942.\nQ.Did the Jaegerstab ever carry out construction work for itself?\nA.No.\nQ.However, the general construction situation was discussed with the Jaegerstab. Why did that happen?\nA.Because partly the execution of the program depended on this, that the construction had to be finished by then in order to be able to produce those constructed buildings.\nQ.Was Stobbe Oetlefessen a member of Jaegerstab?\nA.No, he was only present once or twice in the first sessions when we discussed construction.\nQ.Goering delegated throe construction companies from the Luftwaffe. Were these people Germans or were they foreign laborers?\nA.They were Germans. Most of then were old people, that I saw, and I had. one of those battalions of the Luftwaffe in my sector. They built runways for tho airfields.\nQ.Did Milch have any power over these companies?\nA.No, they were under the juartermaster General of the General staff.\nQ.Witness, during one of the Jaegerstab conferences miners were dis cussed.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2051, "page_number": "1632", "date": "10 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-10", "text": "Do you remember that?\nA.Yes, I also know what they were used for. They were used for these surface constructions, bunker constructions. They were used if one was to construct a shaft in order to remove sand, from the finished vaults, There was a difficulty in providing these miners, and as far as I can remember, they were people who were then later on trained by the SS and put at our disposal for that purpose.\nQDo you know that Milch wanted miners from Berchtesgaden?\nAYes, but I don't believe that he got them.\nQDo you know if these miners from Berchtesgaden were Germans or if they were foreigners or concentration camp inmates?\nAThey could only have been Germans, and no foreigners and no concentration camp inmates, because only skilled German personnel was allowed to work on the Obersalzberg.\nQIf, during that conference, it was mentioned that miners were wanted by the SS from Croatian and Italian engineers, were those to be foreigners?\nANo, I am sure that they must have been Germans too. In Italy, for instance, they were constructing the fortifications, and as I mentioned before, they were to be trained by the SS and they were all Germans.\nQDo you mean concentration camp inmates?\nANo, free Germans.\nQDo you know that Hitler proposed to have ten thousand miners trained by the SS?\nAYes, I remember I have heard about that, but I can only remember vaguely.\nQWe already mentioned Mr. Kammler before. In other words, he was not a leading member of the Jaegerstab?\nANo, as far as I can remember he was only there once during the trip we took.", "speakers": [ "A", "A.", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2052, "page_number": "", "date": "10 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-10", "text": "QWas Schmelter a member of the fighter staff, the Jaegerstab?\nAYes, I believe he was.\n1632 a", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2053, "page_number": "1633", "date": "10 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-10", "text": "Q.Wasn't he under the GBA?\nA.Schmelter was from the Armament Industry as far as I can remember.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The Tribunal will recess until tomorrow morning at 9:30.\nTHE MARSHAL:Tribunal is in recess until tomorrow morning 0930 hours.\n(The Tribunal adjourned until 11 March 1947 at 0930 hours.)", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "Q.", "A.", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2054, "page_number": "1634", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America, against Erhard Milch, defendant, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 11 larch, 1947, 0930-1630, Justice Toms presiding.\nTHE MARSHAL:Persons in the court room will please find their sets.\nThe Honorable, the Judges cf Military Tribunal 2.\nMilitary Tribunal 2 is now in session. God save the United States of America and this honorable Tribunal.\nThere will be order in the court.\nHOLFGANG VORWALD - Resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued) BY DR. BERGOLD:\nQWitness, yesterday we spoke about the single members of the Jaegerstab. Do you know Herr Schlemm?\nAYes, I do.\nQWas he a permanent leading member of the Jaegerstab?\nAWhether he was a permanent member cf the Jaegerstab, I do not know. However, he participated often in their session; also in the trips which the Jaegerstab took.\nQThat was Baumann-Schlemm, wasn't it, the representative of Dorsch?\nAYes.\nQWho was it generally specking within the air armament industry and ever since the be inning of the war concerning the constructions for the war industry -- was that the GL or who was it?\nANo, the GL had nothing to do with it. The GL could only make the requirement or to have certain things constructed or extended, new constructions, etc.\nQWho w o it who actually ordered those constructions of the air armament industry? For instance, in Berlin.", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2055, "page_number": "", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "A.At that time I had not yet taken over my office and I did not know who did it at the time.\n1634-A", "speakers": [ "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2056, "page_number": "1635", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "Q.Who was it after 1941 when you were in that office?\nA.At that time the construction works were carried out by the armament ministry.\nQ.What was Speer's position with respect to the construction work in Berlin?\nA.He was the construction inspector.\nQ.In other words, he was the highest construction manager in Berlin?\nA.Yes.\nQ.Did Milch tell you when the Jaegerstab was founded that he, apart from the plan concerning the fighter program, wanted to increase it by using the Speer ministry concerning this program? Do you know anything about that?\nA.He told me that he wanted to withdraw slowly but surely from that air armament.\nQ.Also for personal reasons?\nA.Yes. There were serious differences of opinion between him and Goering, and these probably moved him to withdraw slowly from this whole matter. All his proposals which he had made since the end of 1941, since he took over his office, which aimed at reinforcing the fighter force, the defensive force, and to which nobody would listen, neither the Jaegerstab nor Goering nor Hitler, made him try to get out of the whole matter.\nQ.Witness, do you know that Milch, because of the evaluation of the situation, that is, a refusal of a defensive war by the higher leadership, had a long series of discussions concerning the change of the leadership of the Reich?\nA.Yes, he told me about that, too.\nQ.Would you tell us in more detail about it?\nA.The fundamental discussion took place after the Stalingrad affair.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2057, "page_number": "", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "with the Fuehrer as he told me later on. That was a very long discussion which lasted into the week hours of the night.\n1635 A", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2058, "page_number": "1636", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "Q.I do not moan that conference, Witness. I mean other discussions concerning the higher leadership of the Reich and how it could be changed.\nA.Yes, Milch mentioned that also.\nQ.Do you know anything about that fact with reference to the Reichs Cabinet, Reichs Chamber?\nA.Yes, ho wanted to have the Reichs government placed on a broader basis and he wanted it to be a real government which was supported by the confidence of the people on a broader basis.\nQ.Is it correct that that was the reason why he had discussions with Goering?\nA.Yes.\nQ.What was the purpose of this whole thing with reference to Hitler.\nA.He wanted to dam the dictatorship and institute a new leadership of the state affairs and also the Wehrmacht.\nQ.Did that happen for the purpose of the continuation of the aggressive war or for the purpose of concluding a peace?\nA.The latter is the point. He had the notion that on a political basis a peace-treaty might be come to which would be bearable. Therefore, it was necessary that the aggressive measures be ceased and that a defensive war should be started in all fields. The military situation according to the Fieldmarshal could only with strong defense be survived, that is militaristically.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2059, "page_number": "1637", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "Q.Do you know about his attempts. Did they ever succeed in doing anything about it?\nA.No, he always failed.\nQ.Can you tell in how far Hitler was against the plan of a defensive war with reference to the fighter force?\nA.Yes. The thing was in the following manner, I will give an example for it. The Jet-propelled, the ME-262. That new plane had been declared a. pure fighter plane, and developed as such by the GL and all offices interested in it. All efforts were made in order with respect to this size of plane for us to produce it as a fighter. Hitler had ordered that it should be used at the front not as a fighter but rather as a \"Blitz\" bomber. All objections made by the GL, and also by the Air Industry that the plane could not be used as a bomber, and that it was against its nature to be used as a bomber were of no avail. Hitler ordered, it will only be used as a \"blitz\" bomber.\nIn spite of that fact, again and again the GL and also the general of the fighter arms, General Gallant, and also other generals and persons tried via Goering and even Hitler himself to change his mind. However, nobody succeeded in doing so; on the contrary Hitler issued an order prohibiting strictly every discussion on ME-262, (Messerschmidts 262.) In other words, all discussions amongst comrades and in masses, were a 11 forbidden.\nQ.All of that occurred in order to eliminate every sort of discussion so that the plane will only be used as a bomber?\nA.Yes. This was to prevent everybody in the office to think about this plane ever having been considered a fighter-plane. Hitler wished to express his resolution finally: \"This plane will be used as a \"blitz\" bomber.\" According to my opinion this decision considerably slowed down the construction of the planes by at least half a year, or six months, and that is how the German fighter force received quite a blow.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2060, "page_number": "1638", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "Q.Witness, do you know that even as far as -- or as late as 1944 the construction of bombers for aggressive purposes had been ordered? Again and again?\nA.Yes, and even after the creation of the Jaegerstab. I remember a conference which we had with Goering in Berchtesgaden, that we were in some manner interested, at the end of May 1944, in which generals from the general staff, General Gallant and General Pelz, who wore of the general fighter force, the GL, and also Morton and Sauer from the armament Ministry, and they all participated in the discussion. It was a discussion of a program, and the point was, that Goering has to be reported to concerning this now program draft, which had been drawn up together with the Jaegerstab and the GL, and after a long discussion with the Air Industry. In this program the particular in-crease of the fighters and night fighters had been expressed. It was a purely defensive program.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:Dr. Bergold, may I interrupt for a moment.\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes, your Honor.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:Does not it seem that this is all rather far afield, the program with reference to the bomber construction and the fighter construction. Now for the last ton minutes the witness has boon describing a certain program, and the name of Milch has not boon mentioned once. We are concerned in ascertaining the guilt or innocence of the defendant and not the programs f r reaching action as to whether the bombers should be emphasized as against the fighters, and soon.\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes. May it please Your Honor. If the de fendant' s witness speaks of \"GL\", he means by that, of course, the defendant Filch.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "JUDGE MUSMANNO", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "JUDGE MUSMANNO" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2061, "page_number": "1639", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "BY DR. BERGOLD:\nQWitness, is that correct?\nAYes, that is correct.\nDR. BERGOLD:In other words, the \"GL\" does not mean the authority itself; that in this case it means the defendant himself.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:Yes, but let's try to confine the inquiry to the counts in the indictment, slave labor, and prisoners of war, and so on, and not these abstract and academic discussions as to the programs for intensifying the war effort.\nDR. BERGOLD:May it please your Honor. Hay I please explain that I cannot act in the way your Honor pleases. The Prosecution made a series of morale impeachments referring to crimes the defendant allegedly committed which are not in the indictment. For the question that is, if there is a crime it is of importance what kind of man is before you, whether he was fighting for the aims of the Nazi Party, or, whether he was a man who within the framework of his activity tried to avoid the worst. I point out to you that the IMT in its findings in the case of Speer went out considerably from that point, what the man had done outside the counts of the indictment. For instance, it was counted as a good point for him that he had avoided the destruction of Germany, an. act which he was not accused of, an act which in itself could not have moved at all the Allied countries, therefore, I am of the opinion that I may describe to you the character of that man.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:Very well, Doctor.\nDR. BERGOLD:What I wish to show you is the correct picture of this man.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:I am afraid that the very thing I was trying to avoid, the long unnecessary discussions, I am only intensifying by my further inquiry, so you may proceed.", "speakers": [ "JUDGE MUSMANNO", "A", "DR. BERGOLD", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2062, "page_number": "1640", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "BY DR. BERGOLD:\nQWitness, I shall come back to the details which says here in one of the documents concerning the Jaegerstab, may it please your donor, No.NOKW 338---- 388, correction. This document discusses the session of the Jaegerstab, session hold on 28 March 1944. Labor requirements are spoken about. Once it said here, a remark made by Milch, I shall read that to you, witness, very shortly. \"Milch: Every week 2000 workers come from the East. The Jaegerstab comes before the agriculture, but for a great part they come to the agriculture.\" Then he says that, \"Jaegerstab comes before the agriculture, could we stop that.\" What was meant -- what does it mean by \"Stop that\" in this particular passage. Does it mean to catch people, or what does it mean?\nAThat means whether these measures could not prevent the people from going in to the agriculture so that they could be taken to the industry.\nQThe same document. They further speak of the whole matter, namely, the workers were hard to get, and Milch said at one point, \"You know our situation.\" He says to Smelter \"That you do everything you can we're sure. However, we have to make a robbing action now. We cannot stick to laws because there will be a lot of discrepancies. However, we shall take this on our back and take the responsibility for it. Witness, could that mean that the people go outside and rob people, or, what did they mean by a \"robbing \" answer?\nAThat was to mean that these people should be taken to the industry, and that we were to cheat, so to say, agriculture of those people.\nQIn other words, that had nothing to do with robbing people?\nANo, that was simply a transfer of the people from one sector to another, respectively that they are not sent to the sector for which they were to be provided, but were sent to the Air Armament Industry, by by-passing the legal regulations.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2063, "page_number": "1641", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "THE PRESIDENT:Just a moment. Mr. Denny, do you have the exhibit number of the document book and page?", "speakers": [ "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2064, "page_number": "1642", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "THE PRESIDENT:Mr. Denney, do you have the exhibit number or document book page?\nMR. DENNEY:Yes, sir.\nDR. BERGOLD:It wasNOKW 388.\nMR. DENNEY:In document book, English, Number 4.\nDR. BERGOLD:Everything is Exhibit Number 75.\nMR. DENNEY:The meeting of 26 March 1944.\nDR. BERGOLD:Your Honors, all the documents which I am introducing now are Exhibit 75, even though they might have different document numbers.\nBY DR. BERGOLD:\nQWitness, in the Jaegerstab conference of 25 April 1944 -and this is DocumentNOKW 334, also Exhibit Number 75 -- it says that Frenchmen in Alsace should be put in barracks. Milch puts it in a nice way, that is, that French persons are not to be employed in Alsace. Can you tell me anything about that?\nAThis is probably the case of the constructing of the tunnel in Alsace which was assigned to the firm B.M.N., the Bayerische Motor Works, so that they would be able to work without being disturbed by air raids. Frenchmen were to be used in order to build this place, and,as far as I can remember this case, Hitler had. ordered later that no Frenchmen were to be used in Alsace. Well, it meant a lot to us to be able to employ those people who were there, so that we would not have to bring German workers there from Germany, and, to comply with Hitler's wishes, Field Marshal Milch had proposed that these people be put in barracks there; perhaps Hitler would not mind that.\nQWas that to be a complete putting in barracks?\nANo, this was just a matter of form so that Hitler could not object to it anymore.\nQWitness, in the same conference -- DocumentNOKW 334, Exhibit Number 73 -- they spoke of the transfer of French prisoners of war from Maehrisch Trucbau to Braunschweig. That is where Milch stated the following; \"I think it excellent that these prisoners of was be sent there when Braunschweig is always attacked.", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "MR. DENNEY", "Q", "A" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2065, "page_number": "", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "\" What, in your opinion, does this sentence mean?\n1642a", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2066, "page_number": "1643", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "AI think that Braunschweig, as an industrial city, was exposed to air raids, just like any other city. I cannot find anything particular about this sentence.\nQCould one say that Milch wanted to send the prisoners of war to Braunschweig in order to move the Allies not to bomb Braunschweig?\nAI do not think so.After all, these prisoners of war were in all cities, and all cities were attacked at that time, all the cities which had industries.\nQWhat, then, do you think that he meant by that sentence that he thought it an excellent idea to put these prisoners of war there when Braunschweig was being attacked all the time?\nAThe prisoners during air raids always stood the test in firefighting and clearing up work, and what he probably meant by that was that it would be good to have these people in these cities under air attack in order to help during future air raids.\nQApart from that, do you know where the barracks were in Braunschweig? Were these barracks near the factories; were they inside the city, or where were they?\nAThey were outside the city.\nQCan you go into detail on that? Is it near Braunschweig?\nAThere wore air fields in Braunschweig, which were in the northern part of the city, and there were also barracks there. I am of the opinion that it was rather far out of the city.\nQWitness, during the eighth trip Hubertus-Enterprise from the 1st to the 3rd of June 1944--DocumentNOKW 350, again Exhibit 75-Milch says here the following: \"No Frenchman will work any longer when the invasion starts. I am of the opinion that these Frenchmen should be brought here by force but then as prisoners. \" Witness, can you. explain to me this passage?\nAWe had arranged with the French government that certain age groups were to be recruited for work in Germany. During the time they were free workers and not prisoners.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2067, "page_number": "", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "QFitness, you probably did not quite understand the passage. We are talking here of Frenchmen who were in France during the invasion.\nAYes, yes.\nQWell, Milch wanted to bring them to Germany as prisoners. Can you explain to mo why he proposed that? What was his reason for that?\nAI cannot think of that at the moment. I don't know why.\nQDo you know that millions of French prisoners of war had been released?\nAYes.\nQDo you know under what conditions?\nAOn the basis of being recalled at any moment. I can think only that the question was with people who had been prisoners of war and had been released until further notice and were now working in France, and, as they were afraid of an invasion, these people were to be made prisoners again later on.\nQYou are positively sure about that, that these French prisoners of war had been released until being recalled?\nAYes, I am sure of that because we had an agreement with the Vichy government.\nQIn the Jaegerstab conference of 20 March 1944 Document NOKW 346, also Exhibit Number 75, Your Honors, Sauer says here the following to Milch:\n\"As far as Hungary is concerned, I would be very grateful if the Field Marshal would call Herr Sauckel and tell him that the whole pool to be mobilized from Hungary has to be put at the disposal of the Jaegerstab before it is put at the disposal of any other branch. Great labor forces have to be built up. The people must be treated like conviets.\"\nCan you tell me what Milch did on that?\nAAll I know is that he told me that he was not going to carry out that wish of Sauer. It was Sauer's wish to ask Sauckel that they be put at the Jaegerstab's disposal. I also know that Held Marshal Milch did l644 not get along with Sauckel.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2068, "page_number": "1645", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "Q.Witness, did you participate in the trip to Hungary?\nA.No.\nQ.Do you know the purpose of that trip?\nA.Yes. Certain factories were to be erected in the hills around Budapest and in the caves near Budapest, which were at the same level as the Danube. There was for quite a period of time a common program between Germany and Hungary for higher production of fighters. This program was to be intensified, and to protect these factories from air raids.\nQ.Is it not correct that that trip also was used to intensify the transportation of Jewish people to Germany?\nA.No, I don't know anything about that.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2069, "page_number": "1646", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "QWitness, I now come back to the case of the S.S. doctors. Tell me now what was the maximum altitude that the air force was interested in in 1941?\nAThe altitude to be reached, they spoke a lot about it in the development sessions of G.L.; we realized that in this war the height or altitude of approximately 14,000 meters would be the maximum height obtained by a plane, That was a figure which could be reckoned on if the developments of the high altitude engines and the pressurized chambers could be developed as we expected. From other offices proposals had been made to attain altitudes like 18,000 and 20,000 meters and to test them. Field Marshall Milch and myself declined that at the time because this altitude seemed Utopian ideas to us, and we decided to be satisfied and to restrict ourselves to the altitude of 14,000 meters.\nQWhat was the practical altitude obtained at that time?\nAThey had altitudes up to 10,000 and 11,000 kilometers, ten to eleven thousand kilometers.\nQHow was the crew to be protected at these altitudes?\nAThere were two developments in this point, running parallel with each other, namely, one of them to give the pilot a pressurized suit. In other words, a suit.\nDR. BERGOLD:Just a moment, witness, the President wants to say something.\nTHE PRESIDENT:I think the witness misstated something. He spoke about 14,000 kilometers, which is very high. Did he not mean 14,000 meters?\nTHE WITNESS:Yes, indeed, 14 kilometers or 14,000 meters.\nBY DR. BERGOLD:\nQWill you continue please, witness?\nAThat high altitude suit, in other words, could give the pilot the possibility to move normally in these high altitudes under altered pressure conditions. The other development was the pressurized chamber or cabin. In other words, it was a chamber which could imitate altitudes which were necessary to keeping the pilots alive.", "speakers": [ "THE WITNESS", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "Q", "A" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2070, "page_number": "", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "Concerning the first problem we ceased the experiments there, namely the high altitude suit.\nl646a because the movement possibilities of the pilot had been hindered to such on extent that he could not make all the movements necessary for the control of the plane.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2071, "page_number": "1647", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "The pressurized chamber had been further developed and used in certain fighter groups and reconnaissance planes which flow at high altitudes.\nQ.Now, Witness, were you interested in the solution of the question as to what would happen to the pilot in that plane?\nA.Yes, of course. Of course we were interested in that too, because one had to get some sort of an idea how a pilot would react if the pressure chamber would have been smashed by bullets, and which cabin then would not function normally, and how a pilot would have to act, though it was not within our field of task; we were only responsible for the material, in other words, the airplane material.\nQ.Witness, that question how a person reacts or acts at an attitude of 14,000 meters , had that already been cleared at that time? Had other tests been made?\nA.Yes, at our experimental station, Rechlin, there was a group of air force doctors who were directly under the medical inspectorate which dealt with that question. I have several reports, or rather I read several reports of this myself. These reports were also published in the air force books which were published yearly, and these articles also contained pictures, and they described the influence of the altitude on the functioning possibilities of a human being. I know that those doctors, in Rechlin, keen on distinction carried out these experiments on themselves. I can still remember having seen in those booklets that for instance the influence on the writing capacity which would decrease with height restricted the possibility of being able to write legibly and which later on developed to a simple scribble.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2072, "page_number": "", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "Those doctors who carried out the experiments on themselves received medals for this work.\n1647(a)", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2073, "page_number": "", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "Q.Witness, did you induce these experiments with the doctors on themselves, or who did?\n1647 A", "speakers": [ "Q." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2074, "page_number": "1648", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "AI already mentioned before that they were stationed in Rechlin because that was where the research station for the Luftwaffe was. They were under the medical inspectorate.\nQDid Milch at that time discuss with you in which altitude one was interested?\nAI answered before that although several people objected to it, we had agreed as to the 14 kilometers or 14,000 meters.\nQWitness, do you know that experiments for the Luftwaffe had been carried out in Dachau?\nAYes, I heard about that in May, 1945, through publication in some Munich paper and later on when I was kept a prisoner of war at Dachau I have been interrogated on that point.\nQAt that time in 1941 or 1942, respectively, you didn't know anything about that?\nANo, during the whole war I learned nothing at all of this matter at Dachau.\nQDid Milch speak with you about these experiments or didn't he?\nANo, he never did.\nQDid you know Dr. Rascher, at that time I mean?\nANo. I read his name for the first time in May, 1945, in a Munich paper, and during the examination in September 1945, at Dachau I have also been asked about him. I didn't know him.\nQDid you hear about the fact that a report concerning experiments had come in to the R.L.M.?\nANo.\nQDid you hear anything about the showing of a film in September 1942?\nANo.\nQTell me now , who was responsible for the agenda for the technical talks and who set the date for them.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2075, "page_number": "", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "A.I myself.\nQ.And you learned nothing of the showing of that film?\n1648-A", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2076, "page_number": "1649", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "ANo.\nQWitness, there is an unclarity here in the paper concerning the position of the Luft-hansa. Did the Luft-hansa have anything to do with military organizations?\nANo.All during the war repair stations of the Luft-hansa were put at the disposal of the Luftwaffe or used as repair shops for the Luftwaffe. That is the only thing that happened on a militaristic basis or in the military field. However, for most of the time they repaired water transport planes. For instance, they worked on Junker-52 or Junker planes, which in itself was part of the work which the Luft-hansa used to do all the time.\nQWitness, do you know if Milch belonged to the inner circle of Hitler's.\nANo.\nQWitness, please explain your \"no\". That is not quite clear. Do you know it or don't you know it? Do you know if ho belonged to the circle or don't you?\nAWell, I don't know how to understand your expression \"inner circle\".\nQIn other words, do you mean those who wore confidential men of Hitler.\nANo, Mich was not a confidential man of Hitler.\nQIs it correct that only with Goering's approval he could go and see Hitler?\nAYes.\nQDo you know that duds fell over Germany? Who eliminated those?\nAAs far as I know there were special groups taking care of that. There were people who were around the armament centers. They were under the Luftgaucommando, and one officer was ordered who saw to it that after an air raid these people went to certain places which had been named by the police and where the duds were then removed. They saw to it that the duds were removed. I myself as commander of the Luftgau have watched these groups while working and I also gave them decorations and distinctions.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2077, "page_number": "1650", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "There were special fire experts who knew all about the newest bombs of the enemy.\nQWere these Germans or foreigners?\nA They were Germans, German soldiers as a matter of fact.\nQWitnesses testified here to the effect that foreigners helped there as well. Do you know anything about that?\nANo, I don't.\nQWitness, do you know that on 30 January 1943 Goering made a speech concerning the Russian campaign, and that he spoke of cowards and weaklings who had worried about the Russian campaign?\nAYes, I do. I remember exactly that happened in the RLM, in the great honor hall. There was a certain delay at that time of an hour and a half approximately. There was an air raid and the speech was only held a little later. That speech was transmitted to the people, and of course, there was quite a confusion about the whole thing. I also believe that that speech was not held on the 30th of January but only on 1 February, as far as I can remember. And he spoke about the necessity of the Russian campaign, and he said that at that time, of course, there were weaklings who had said that this campaign should not take place, and in continuation of that speech he said those are always the same cowards. That approximately was how the speech went.\nQWhom do you think that he meant by that?\nAIt was clear to me that he meant Field Marshal -- among others\nTHE PRESIDENT:We don't mind very much this witness telling what he thinks Milch may have meant by something, but I don't want him to go beyond that and tell what he thinks Hitler night have meant by what he said. You are asking this witness to guess. That is going too far. Do you understand?\nDR. BERGOLD:Your Honors, I believe that your objection comes from the fact that the interpretation could not have come to you.\nTHE PRESIDENT:My objection is to the question, not to the answer. You are asking this witness to guess what Hitler might have meant -", "speakers": [ "A", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2078, "page_number": "1651", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "DR. BERGOLD:Goering.\nTHEPRESIDENT: -- by certain words that he used. Well -- Goering, all right. You have been doing that with Milch right along, but I think you are going- too far when you ask him to put his interpretation on what a number of other people might have meant by certain words.\nDR. BERGOLD:Well, may it please Your Honors, I think that one has to know the situation in Germany at that time in order to be able to understand that. Everybody at that time knew of the conflict between Goering and Milch, and everyone in the Air Ministry and also the German people knew whom he meant by that certain remark even though he didn't mention the name. Such an affront before the public could not take place; that is, if he mentions the name, naturally, and if I put such a speech before you, then there is a lack of knowledge of various facts which we Germans know, which you do not know, however, I can only explain it to you by asking the witness.\nTHE PRESIDENT:All right I am sorry I mentioned it. I will join Judge Musmanno in retiring from this debate.\nQ (By Dr. Bergold) Witness, do you know of Milch participated with money in the Air Armament industry.\nANo.\nQDo you know that he participated with money or don't you know it?\nAHe did not participate.\nQIs it correct that Milch on his 50th birthday accepted or refused a bonus from the Air Armament Industry of 50,000 marks.\nAHe refused it. His life was modest. I remember his 50th birthday very well. Admiral Laas appeared there, the President of the Union of the German Air Industry, and he wanted to present him with that amount. The Field Marshal told me that he refused that gift.", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "THE", "Q", "A" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2079, "page_number": "1652", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "QWas Milch a profiteer? Of the National Socialist System?\nANo. On the contrary he refused -- he was rather modest and he refused to have a villa in Berlin.\nQDo you know what his position was about the master race theory of the Nazis?\nAHe was against this theory.\nQWitness, it has been said here that Milch showed to foreign visitors secret weapons or secret industries of Germany. Do you know if he had the permission of his higher authorities.\nAYes, indeed. Before any foreign visitor or group of visitors could be shown certain parts of the Luftwaffe, he had to have a special permission.\nQWitness, I am not interested in the fact that he had to or did not have to. I want to know if he did.\nAYes, he did. I myself at the time was chief of the 6th department of the General Staff. That was the armament department and that division was the competent division which would issue permission. We had to receive our permission from Goering.\nDR. BERGOLD:For the time being I have no more questions to the witness.\nCROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. DENNEY:\nQWhen did you enter the German Army?\nAOn 5 June 1917.\nQWhat was your rank in 1939?\nALieutenant Colonel.\nQWhen did you become a Colonel?", "speakers": [ "A", "DR. BERGOLD", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2080, "page_number": "1653", "date": "01 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-01", "text": "A 1941.\nQWhat date?\nAI have to look in my pay book.\nQNo, no. Don't look in your soldiers' book. Leave it there. Just tell me what date you became a Colonel.\nAI believe on the 1st of March.\nQAnd when were you promoted after that?\nA 1943; on the 1st of March, Brigadier General.\nQBrigadier General in your army is known as General-Major, is it not?\nAYes.\nQAnd did you get promoted after that?\nAIn 1944 on 1 July, Major General.\nQAnd was that the rank you held at the end of the war?\nAYes.\nQYou were a Colonel then in 1942, is that right?\nAYes.\nQYou said that you first know Milch in 1937. What was your position at the outbreak of the war in September 1939?\nAChief of the 6th department of the General Staff of theAir Force or Luftwaffe.\nQWhere was your office?\nAIn the RLM with theAir Ordnance Master General.\nQHow long did you hold that post?\nAFrom 1 July 1938 to 1 November 1941.\nQThen where did you go?\nAThen I became chief of the Technical Division \"C\", Department \"C\".\nQIs that the \"B\" office in the Generalluftzeugmeister?\nAYes.\nQAnd that \"A\" office that you spoke of in the GL, that's an office that is now shown on that chart, but it is an office that has parallel functions with yours?", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2081, "page_number": "1654", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "AYes.\nQHow long were you chief of the \"C\" office in the Luftzougmeister?\nAUntil the end of June 1944.\nQJune 30. Then where did you go?\nAThen I was sent to the FlakArtillery School and I wanted to take over a flak division. However, on 1 September 1944 I became Commander of Luftgau 7.\nQWhere was this Flak Artillery School?\nAThat was in Roerick, Mecklenburg.\nQYou were there from 30 June to 1 September, and then you became Commander of Luftgau 7 in Munich?\nANo, I was there only inAugust. In June I was sick with lumbago and I was in the hospital until early in August.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2082, "page_number": "1655", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "QWhen did you go to Luftgau 7, Munich?\nAOn the 4th of September, 1944.\nQAt the end of the war?\nAYes.\nQDid you ever know a Dr. Romberg?\nANo.\nQ ALuftwaffe Doctor?\nANo.\nQWas he a Luftwaffe doctor at Dachau?\nANo, I don't know him.\nQYou were in the Luftwaffe Ministry in Berlin in August and September of 1943, weren't you?\nAYes.\nQDo you remember getting a film from anyone while you were there?\nANo.\nQDo you know a Colonel Vorwald?\nANo.\nQDo you know any other Colonel Vorwalds in the Air Force that was stationed around there at that time?\nANo.\nQDo you know a Colonel Pendall?\nANo.\nQYou never heard of a Colonel Pendall?\nAOh, \"Pendelle\"; yes, I heard of \"Pendelle\"; he was the adjutant of the Field Marshal Filch, at G.L.\nQDo you know anything about a film that was shown at the Air Ministry that had to do with air pressure experiments at Dachau?\nANo.\nQYou say you never went to Dachau?\nAYes, indeed, I was there in 1936. I was invited there once together with twenty-five other officers. At that time I was a tactic teacher at the War School.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2083, "page_number": "1656", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "QIn the summer of 1936?\nAYes.\nQDid you ever make any other trips there?\nANo; just as a prisoner of war.\nQHow was everything at Dachau in 1936?\nAIn 1936 I saw the concentration camp. We saw the whole concentration camp.\nQIt was a nice place; was it?\nAAll wooden barracks; with rooms for fifty people each; which were furnished with wash rooms and W.C.; we were also shown a mess where the prisoners and inmates could get coffee or cookies or cake. We saw a library which was administered by the inmates themselves. We also saw the kitchen. We also witnessed the reception of their meals in the evening. There were certain workshops for carpenters; where part of the inmates worked. I remember the stools were being made there and war lockets. The equipment of that carpenter shop was very up to date; it contained every machine for working with wood; and also some suction machines. That was what struck me most. That was what struck me most.\nQYou know that the Luftwaffe was in charge of the work at the Dachau Camp?\nAYes; I knew that. In fact the commander of the camp showed us around personally. He was an SS Brigade Commander.\nQBut you never went back again?\nAOh yes; at the end of 1945 in the end ofAugust as a prisoner.\nMR. DENNEY:I am not talking about when the war was over.\nQYou never went back before the war was over?\nANo, not any more.\nQBy the way; were you a member of the Party?\nANo; from 1917 until 1944 I was a soldier.", "speakers": [ "A", "MR. DENNEY", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2084, "page_number": "1657", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "Q.With a steel helmet?\nA.No.\nQ.With the SA or the SS, or any of those clubs?\nA.No.\nQ.On any inspection trips which you made to the various factories that you told Dr. Bergold about when you saw Russians, Ukranian women and French, what other kinds of foreign workers did you see there?\nA.Well, all those which you just mentioned. Russians. Particularly, Ukranian women and French women.\nQ.French men?\nA.No. That was a factory for very accurate machinery. That was at Spandau, near Berlin, and the only French women were girls, female workers.\nQ.They never used any French employees in the Luftwaffe?\nA.Yes, I heard about that, but I personally never saw any of them.\nQ.Did you hear about that?\nA.The French men were always used in the industry, that is, in the Luftwaffe industry.\nQ.But that's all you know about it, you just heard about it?\nA.Yes, I did not happen to see any.\nQ.Did you see the factory in Brandenburg, where they made Luftwaffe articles?\nA.Brandenburg was the \"Arado\" factory.\nQ.Were you ever up there?\nA.Yes I was; that was the factory for the HE-177.\nQ., Who did you see working there?\nA.There I saw Germans.\nQ.Only Germans they had up there?\nA.Well I didn't see anybody else. Also, I did not go to all the workshops. During my visit I restricted myself to the development shop at Arado, and there they only used German workers.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2085, "page_number": "1658", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "Q.You couldn't have known about that, inasmuch as you were only interested in the airplane?", "speakers": [ "Q." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2086, "page_number": "1659", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "THE MARSHAL:The Tribunal No. II is again in session.\nBY MR. DENNEY:\nQWitness, you were there in Berlin all during 1942, that is, your office was there, was it not?\nAYes.\nQAnd on 11 September in '42 you don't recall ever having seen Dr. Rascher or Dr. Romberg?\nANo.\nQDid you see Oberarzt named Weffler on that day?\nAI didn't get the name?\nQ W-E-R-F-L-E-R?\nANo.\nQDo you know an Oberarzt named Professor Kalk?\nAKalk?\nQ K-A-L-K?\nAYes.\nQDid you know an Oberarzt named Bruehl?\nAYes.\nQDid you know a government counsel named Penzinger?\nAYes, Oberarzt Pensinger I knew. He was in Rechlin.\nQ You recall a man named --- you knew Pendelle?\nAColonel Pendelle, yes.\nQDid you know Obersturmbannfuehrer Sievers of the SS?\nANo.\nQWe have a document in evidence here as Prosecution's Exhibit No. 123, Document No.NO-224, appearing at page 190 in the English Document Book, No. 5b (Baker), that is a report of Dr. Romberg and Dr. Rascher, which says he went over to the Air Ministry on 11 September 1942 at 9:45 o'clock in the morning, according to telephonic and oral agreements; that Colonel Pendelle and I, we went to the ante-chambers of the Secretary of State of the Senate, and they had a movie there, and that the defendant was not able to go to the movie because Goering had sent for him, and it says that after the film was shown, the motion picture film was handed to Colonel Vorwald, and that he tried to get the film back from you on the same day, but that you were still at the developing conference, and he telephoned you the next day and requested that the film be returned to him, and you said that you wanted to keep the film until Sunday, the 13th of September, since on that day the Reichsmarshal was coming, and he might want to see the picture, and so Romberg let you keep the picture.", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2087, "page_number": "1660", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "Now do you remember that?\nANo, I don't recall that at all.", "speakers": [ "A" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2088, "page_number": "1661", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "A.No, I don't recall that at all.\nQ.Do you know what the picture was about?\nA.No.\nQ.Did you knew that Romberg was a Luftwaffe doctor?\nA.No, I do not know Romberg.\nQ.You only heard about Rascher in ay of 1945, is that right?\nA.Yes.\nQ.You never saw the picture?\nA.No.\nQ.Do you know anything about a picture that they showed in the Air Ministry in September of 1942 that shoved them experimenting on people who were concentration camp inmates at Dachau in a pressure chamber?\nA.No.\nQ.You said that you left the Generalluftzeugmeister in 1944, 30 June?\nA.Yes. It may have been a few days before. I was on a trip for the Jaegerstab, and I fell ill. I was taken to the hospital immediately from the train.\nQ.You had nothing to do there after with the Generalluftzeugmeister or the Jaegerstab?\nA.No.\nQ.Now, who was in charge of prisoners of war for the Luftwaffe?\nA.The Luftwaffe was not in charge of prisoners of war. I said yesterday that all prisoners of war were looked after by the OKW and, in Germany, by the deputies of the Generalkommandos of the army districts, by a general in each case who was in charge of prisoners of war.\nQ.Didn't General Foerster have something to do with prisoners of war?\nA.No.\nQ.You know General Foerster, didn't you?\nA.Yes, of course.\nQ.You knew him well?\nA.Yes.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2089, "page_number": "", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "QYou were familiar with his general duties during the war?\nAYes, he was the chief of the air defense at the end.\nQHe was a high ranking general in the Luftwaffe, was he not?\nAYes, he was general of Flieger.\nQAs far as you know, he had nothing to do with prisoners of war?\nANo.\nQYou say that it was a Hitler order that said prisoners of war would be assigned to the various factories?\nAYes.\nQAnd you people -- Excuse me; go ahead.\nAThis situation was already in force in 1941 when we took over our office.\nQAnd, whoever you got you had to take?\nAYes, that was the order.\nQSo, if they gave you prisoners of war, slave labor, concentration camp people -- whoever they gave you -- you just had to take them because that was what Hitler had ordered?\nAYes.\nQYou told about concentration camp workers working at Oranienburg. Did you know of any other Luftwaffe factories where you had concentration camp workers?\nANo, all I know is Oranienburg, the Heinkel Works there.\nQAnd you cannot think of any other foreigners who worked in Luftwaffe factories, other than those which you told the Tribunal?\nAOther nationalities I did not know, Russian, Ukranian French women. I did know that Frenchmen were working.\nQYou did not know anything about transports or workers from Poland?\nANo.\nQYou never heard Filch say anything about that?\nANo.\nQYou never heard Filch say anything about transports of workers from Italy? 1662", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2090, "page_number": "1663", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "ANo.\nQYou did not know about any Italian workers working in the Luftwaffe?\nANo, I did not know anything of Italians. In one case there were miners. They were German miners who worked in Italy in the mines.\nQNo, I am not talking about those. I am talking about Italians.\nANo, I know nothing there.\nQYou never heard anybody say anything about Italian workers?\nANo, I know nothing.\nQDid you ever hear the defendant urge of concentration camps being used to control foreign labor.\nANo.\nQAnd you never heard him recommend that foreign workers be sent to concentration camps?\nANo.\nQDid you know a man named Gablenz G-A-B-L-E-N-Z?\nAYes, at the beginning he was the chief of the Planning Office.\nQHow many meetings of the Jaegerstab were hold? Do you know?\nAWell, it was founded on 1 March, and there were daily conferences each morning, except when the Jaegerstab was making a trip.\nQWell, would you agree with me that there were 112 meetings of the Jaegerstab?\nAYes, that is entirely possible.\nQAnd how many of those 112 meetings did you attend?\nAPerhaps 30.\nQDo you know how many Milch attended?\nAIn the beginning Milch was there quite frequently, but later on he did not go quite so often. He became a much less frequent visitor and sent deputies instead.\nQNow, at the Jaegerstab meetings, was hot the chair that Milch occupied left empty if he wasn't there?\nANot that I can remember -- that the chair remained empty.\nQWell, when Milch was there did he preside?\nANo, Herr Sauer was presiding.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2091, "page_number": "1664", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "QSauer presided at all the meetings, is that right?\nAYes.\nQYou are sure of that?\nAYes.\nQNow, you said that the total number of workers that you had in the Luftwaffe was 500,000?\nAYes.\nQAnd that only includes the factories?\nAI did not quite understand the last question.\nQThat figure of 500,000 includes the airplane factories, the motor factories, the factories where they made the navigation instruments, the bombing instruments, all of the controls, the various other precision instruments, that go into the make up of an airplane, and it includes a small part of the aircraft ammunition; is that right?\nAYes.\nQAnd the total number of workers that you had so involved was 500,000? That was the greatest number?\nAYes.\nQYou never had any more than that?\nANo.\nQHow was this figure of 500,000 broken down? How many of them were Germans, and how many of them were foreign workers first?\nAI could not say that in detail now, because that was not within my sphere of duty. All I remember is this figure of 500,000 which I received in conferences with General Gablenz.\nQWell, how many of these were prisoners of war?\nAThat I do not know either.\nQHow many of them were concentration camp laborers?\nAAgain I do not know.\nQHow many trips did you make to these various factories during the period 1941 -- November -- to 1944 June?", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2092, "page_number": "1665", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "AI should say roughly I took two trips a month. Therefore I would have made a total of, roughly, perhaps 60 or 70 trips.\nQWas Milch with you on those trips?\nAThere were a few joint trips.\nQWell, how many?\nAI should say 12 or 15 which we made jointly.\nQWhat were the plants that you visited with Milch?\nABMW; near Munich;Allach, near Hiener Neustadt, the aircraft workers there; Steyer Motorworks; Junkers in Dessau; aircraft engine workers. We went there several times; Luther Works in Braunschweig; Trippelworks in Alsace; near Strassburg; Demiler Benz in Stuttgart. Those are the ones which I recall at this moment. There nay have been more.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2093, "page_number": "1666", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "QWhen were you at Wiener Neustadt?\nAI myself went several times; several times in 1943 in the autumn.\nQWere you over there in 1942?\nAYes.\nQDid you over see any people at work there?\nAYes.\nQWere they all Germans?\nAAs far as I can remember I only saw Germans. I certain only spoke to Germans.\nQHow were they treated, pretty well?\nAYes. Our policy was always to treat them well because we expected them to produce things; and Milch always emphasized me that foreign workers particularly should be treated well as their food and billeting and clothes were concerned; because they were expected to produce; and their food and clothes were accordingly; so therefore I must adduce they must have been treated well.\n0 And Milch always told you to treat them well; to be sure that they were treated well?\nAYes.\nQDo you know the plants at Kaufring; Kaufring; K-a-u-f-r-i-n-g?\nAYes; but not as chief of the technical office; but late on in my position as commander or chief of the Luftgau 7; I went there by invitation of Gauleiter Diesler.\nQDid you ever get to a factory at Gussen; G-u-s-s-e-n?\nANo, I do not know that one.\nQYou never heard of the Gussen plants which were known one and two?\nANo.\nQThis M.E. 323 that you made at Obertraubling; that was the Luftwaffe; wasn't it?\nAYes.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2094, "page_number": "1667", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "QAnd I forgot to ask you about conditions at Kaufring. How were they?\nAKaufring? I was only about half an hour, three-quarters of an hour, and I was particularly interested in the technical manner, of the way they built that tunnel which was built about the ground, and there were plenty of workers around of all sorts\nQDid you see any foreign workers there?\nAYes, there I saw some.\nQWhat kind?\nAI couldn't toll you their nationalities, but the majerit of the workers were foreign workers.\nQWere they all happy and well fed?\nAI couldn't say about that.\nQYou saw them?\nAYes.\nQHow did they look?\nAWell, it was like a lot of ants running around. They were not particularly well clothed, and one couldn't say that, but as far as the feed was concerned, that was generally quite.\nQDid you see any Hungarian Jews there?\nANo.\nQYou never know anything about their employing Hungarian Jews, did you?\nAI know nothing.\nQYou know though about the Nuernberg laws in Germany, didn't you?\nAYes.\nQYou don't mean that you didn't know that Jewish people were not favorably regarded by the people who ran the Third Reich?\nANo, no.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2095, "page_number": "1668", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "QYou knew that they were having a bad time here in Germany didn't you?\nAYes.\nQNow, what was the date of this business that had to do with these two Russian officers that were shot?\nAWe were told about it on, I believe, the 16th of February 1944.\nQ 16th of February, 1944?\nAYes. I know that it was on the day after a heavy British raid.\nQAnd how did you hear about it?\nABy the engineer on service, on duty.\nQWell, tell me about it, what time was it, and how did you hear about it?\nAIt was morning, in the morning when I came to my office, roughly about nine o'clock, and the report was handed to me. That is to say a telephone call had came in at night, somebody wanted to talk to me, but on account of the air raid, I could not be contacted, and the report said that at Obertraubling two prisoners of war had tried to escape. I think that was five days ago, perhaps on the 11th of February, and that the Fuehrer had heard about this, Hitler, and that he had been most indignant and wished to have these non hanged, but actually they were shot at his order. Why didn't we report that ourselves, people wanted to know. I myself did not receive the report myself from my inspectorate. I remember that. I told Colonel Traubling, told him off in no uncertain terms because ho hadn't told me the incident. I then took the report and went to General Milch's antechamber. Usually about half past nine he arrived. When he arrived I told him at once. He had a meeting of the Central Planning Board after that, and he was also very indignant and told me it is monstrous that those people should have been shot, for after all prisoners of war have a right to escape and you must not punish them that way.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2096, "page_number": "1669", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "That will lead to complications.\nQDid Milch over do anything about it or did you over do anything about it?\nAThere was nothing more to be done. The people were dead, and I knew then and told my inspectorate very emphatically that in the future incidents of that sort they must be reported to me immediately by teletype letter.\nQAnd you had instructions prior to this time to be careful about the treatment of prisoners of war from Milch?\nAHe had no authority ever foreign workers or prisoners of war. We were not under, merely about powers of the order. Prisoners of war were looked after by an army department, and that department supplied the uards and the officers and treatment of the prisoners of war was exclusively in the hands of these departments. We ourselves could issue no orders.\nQAfter this incident you gave an order that they should report these things to you immediately.\nAWill, it was a very special incident, and special incidents should always be reported to me immediately by teletype letters, and in this case the building inspectorate had omitted to do so, and therefore I reproached them strongly and reminded them of my order to report special incidents to me.\nQNow, you said Hitler reproached Milch for the escape of Russian prisoners of war?\nAYes.\nQDo you remember what Hitler said to him?\nANo, that I do not know, hut it must have been in fairly strong language because General Milch was highly indignant at the way Hitler had spoken.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2097, "page_number": "1670", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "QNow, you told the Court that you know of how many instances of prisoners of war having been killed?\nANo, I never said that.All I said yesterday was that I know about cases when prisoners escaped; that is, that they escaped successfully. I remembered yesterday a case in France whore a British POW escaped from a German airfield in a German ME-109 and got away. Also, there was the Prenzlau incident when one or two POW's escaped and also got away.\nQYou don't know of any other instances where prisoners of war escaped or attempted to escape, and in the first case were recaptured, and in the second case were frustrated, were killed?\nANo, I know of no such cases.\nQDo you remember the Sargan affair?\nAThis business was published in the papers, and after our surrender I heard quite a lot about it.\nQHow many did they kill there?\nAI believe there were either 50 or 75 officers.\nQOfficers of the RAF were they not?\nAYes -- I do not know what service they belonged to.\nQWell, they weren't Germans, were they?\nANo, no, they were prisoners, and I know that we discussed this very much in the prisoner of war camp in Belgien and condemned this business very strongly.\nQNow, you spoke about a time when Milch was able to bring two units of men to work in the Luftwaffe factory, one of forty thousand and one of sixty thousand, whom the OKW were trying to get. Do you recall that?\nAYes, they were Germans who had been called up and had been released from their services in order to work in the armament factories.\nQIn other words, they were called up and Milch used his influence to get these, in one case forty thousand, and in the other case sixty thousand, from the OKW reassigned to the Luftwaffe for work in the armament factory.\nAYes.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2098, "page_number": "1671", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "QHow many men are there in a German division; about fifteen thousand five hundred, aren't there?\nAAbout fifteen thousand, yes.\nQNow, in 1941 November, things were in pretty bad shape in the Luftwaffe, weren't they?\nAYes.\nQWhen was the battle of Britain?\nA 1940. It began in September 1940.\nQAnd you hadn't made out so well there?\nANo, the losses became bigger and bigger, and finally it had to be abandoned, the attacks.\nQSo that by 1941 the whole picture in the Luftwaffe was not very good, particularly about the time Udet killed himself?\nAYes, it was very bad indeed.\nQAnd that is when it was turned over to Milch?\nAYes.\nQNow, Hitler said he wanted 350 fighter planes a month for 1942, and then Milch said, \"We will double that\"?\nAYes.\nQ \"And we will get three thousand a month in '44\"; is that right?\nAHe wanted to achieve that even in 1943.\nQNow, when you were at this ack-ack school, flak artillery, were they training any Russians there?\nAThe-ack-ack artillery group was not under my command. I was merely taking a course there by order, in order to learn the now tactics and methods of ack-ack artillery before I took over my division.\nQYes, I know that you weren't the commanding general, but did you have any Russians who were there learning flak artillery tactics?\nANo, no.\nQDid they ever use Russians in the anti-aircraft gun batteries so far as you know?\nAYes, I know that myself from my activities in 1944 and 1945 when I was commander-in-chief of Luftgau 7.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2099, "page_number": "1672", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "QWell, as a matter of fact at all of these Luftwaffe factories they had extensive air installations around them, didn't they; that is, antiaircraft installations?\nAYes, they were not only around the factories, but there were other objects which had to be protected. In Munich, for instance, the BMW plants and other armament factories which had to be included in the defense scheme.\nQWell, you have seen Russians manning the guns, haven't you?\nAYes, only with the heavy anti-aircraft guns.\nQWhat kind of a gun was that, 90 millimeter?\nA. 8.8 and 10.5 Q 8.8-and 10.\n5. Now, you heard a speech that Milch made on 23 March 1944, didn't you?\nAI don't know what speech you are referring to, 23 March 1944?\nQWell, Dr. Bergold showed you that speech, didn't he? A conference with the Air Force engineers, chief quartermasters -\nAYes, yes, I know now. That was a speech which Milch gave in the Reich Air Ministry, addressing the Quartermaster Generals and Naval engineers of all airfleets.\nQSo far as you are concerned the principal thing involved here, they were talking about the Jaegerstab, weren't they?\nAWell, the Jaegerstab -- one couldn't put it that way really. The point was that during the heavy air raids on the air craft industry many of our spare parts and storerooms had been destroyed. There were many aircraft which could have been repaired very quickly if we had the spare parts available, and Field Marshal Milch appealed very strongly to the officers who looked after supplies, the fleet engineers, and so forth, to see to it that the spare parts which were named by our departments, to release them from their own stores.\nQWell, do you remember him saying anything about the Jaegerstab?\nANo, that had nothing to do with the Jaegerstab.\nQAnd you are sure that he didn't mention the Jaegerstab at that meeting?", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2100, "page_number": "1673", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "A.It is quite possible that he referred to tho Jaegerstab because after all, the Jaegerstab by then was three weeks old.\nQ.Did you hear him say anything about these is no international law\" at that meeting?\nA.No.\nQ.You din't hear him say anything about whipping people who didn't work?\nA.No.\nQ.And you didn't hear him say anything about how many different dialects were spoken by the various employees of the factories?\nA.No.\nQ.Nothing in the speech, so far as you are concerned, to indicate that you had any foreign workers working for you?\nA.No, the question of laborers and workers was not so important at this conference; it was material only.\nQ.No, you said yesterday that the downward channel from Milch would have gone through you?\nA.Yes, the orders to the industry.\nQ.So if he wanted to give some orders to the industry, they would go to Verwald and then they would to on down through Verwald, and they would get out to the plant; is that right?\nA.Yes, not orders--one can't call it orders. He couldn'T order then. He simply gave directives.\nQ.Well, he was a Field Marshal, wasn't he?\nA.Yes, but a Field Marshal can only give orders to soldiers and not to civilians or industrialists.\nTHE PRESIDENT:May I ask a question?\nMR DENNEY:Yes sir.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "THE PRESIDENT", "MR DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2101, "page_number": "", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "EXAMINATION BY THE PRESIDENT:\nQ.Did the Laftwaffe provide its own plant protection against air raids.\n1673A", "speakers": [ "Q." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2102, "page_number": "1674", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "AYes, in some cases.\nQWell, that is, the batteries which were around the factories were manned by the Luftwaffe?\nAYes, and there were batteries which only indicated an actual alert which were assembled. That was so particularly with night batteries which were near the works, and there were also heavy batteries which only, in cases of alerts, were manned at night; that is to say, that the crow was not purely soldiers.\nCROSS EXAMINATION (Continued) BY MR. DENNEY:\nQBut in the German Amy the flak artillery is part of the Luftwaffe, isn't it?\nAYes.\nQNow, you said that you saw some Russians manning ack-ack batteries up north of Berlin some place, yesterday to Dr. Bergold. Where was it that you saw those men on the ack-ack- battery?\nAI saw them for the first time, when I was commander-in-chief of Luftgau 7, and the anti-aircraft batteries of the whole of the Luftgau were under my command. On that occasion I saw the Russian auxiliaries in the batteries.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2103, "page_number": "1675", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "EXAMINATION BY THE PRESIDENT:\nQLuftgau 7 was near Munich?\nAYes, Munich, Nurnberg,Augsburg, Innsbruck, Berchtesgaden, and Salzburg.\nQWere air-raids directed at that Gau by Russian planes?\nANo.\nQWhat kind of planes were they?\nAThe British at nighty theAmericans in the daytime.\nQBut never any Russian planes?\nANo, never.\nCROSS EXAMINATION (Continued) BY MR. DENNEY:\nQIn March 1943 Milch went to see Hitler and told him the truth about Stalingrad, what a terrible show that had been over there. Were you with them?\nANo, he told me when he returned from the headquarters.\nQHe got permission from Goering to go?\nAHe had a direct order from Hitler at the time when he went to Stalingrad; and therefore he had to report to Hitler. That was after he had fulfilled the order; and on that occasion he vented his feelings.\nQIf Hitler ordered him to come and see him, he could go and see Hitler without seeing Goering, couldn't he?\nAYes, on that occasion, certainly.\nQHe felt that the war was lost then, did he?\nAIf the war would be led in that way, yes.\nQSo he really didn't get along very well with Hitler?\nAI don't quite see how I can understand this question. Do you mean because he told him the truth or before this interview?\nQWell, from then on, from March 1943, he didn't get along very well with Hitler if he went and told him.\nAWell, the relations to Hitler certainly worsened.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2104, "page_number": "1676", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "QWell, he just told Hitler that he didn't think the boys were doing very well over on the Eastern Front, didn't he?\nAYes.\nQHe had opposed the Eastern Front campaign, which started roughly in June 1941, from the beginning, didn't he?\nAYes.\nQHe used to make remarks about Hitler in meetings and have them taken out of the minutes?\nAYes.\nQAnd he told you that he didn't like the way Hitler dealt with prisoners of war?\nAYes. When the two Russians had been sent to Obertraubling he told me about that, as I said before.\nQSo he wasn't getting along too well with the Little Corporal about now, was he?\nANo.\nQYou say that his policies and Goering's differed basically?\nAYes.\nQSo far as the General Luftwaffe program was concerned?\nAYes; also in other respects, politically, for instance.\nQYou mean Goering was a strong Party man?\nAField Marshal Milch did not agree with the general policy of Hitler's.\nQWell, then when did this disagreement between Goering and Milch start?\nAWhen it began is very difficult to say because the relations there were not particularly good. But this eternal struggle of Milch to get the defensive power of the Luftwaffe increased and the fact that Goering did not see eye to eye with that made relations worse and worse because Goering became aware that Milch wished the air armament to be done in a different way from his own conception.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2105, "page_number": "1677", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "QSo far as you know, Milch was a Field Marshal up until the capitulation, wasn't he?\nAYes. It is customary in Germany that you remain a Field Marshal through your lifetime. You cannot be demoted.\nQSure, and you don't know of his ever having been arrested, do you, like Goering?\nANo, all I heard was that it was intended to arrest him.\nQIt was intended to arrest him?\nAYes.\nQ has he ever a member of the July 20, 1944, Putsch group?\nANot that I know of.\nQHe wasn't like Witzleben and some of the rest of them, was he?\nAI only heard in the hospital in Wildbad of this Putsch over the radio on the same day; and I knew nothing of it in advance.\nQYou said that he tried repeatedly to get peace with France. When did these efforts start?\nAI said yesterday that when I met Milch for the first time I became acquainted with the efforts of the then General Milch. That was in 1937, in March, at the end of the tour of inspection, which I made as an applicant for the General Staff.\nQWell, did he make any efforts for peace with France after the war had started?\nAThat happened after the beginning of the war, yes; but I don't quite know what year it was. He once more suggested it. It may have been in 1941 or perhaps as late as 1943.\nQThis is the peace with France that you are talking about?\nAYes.After all, there was no peace; it was only an armistice with France. His aim was to have a real peace with France.\nQThen you say that he also tried to get Ribbentrop dismissed?\nAYes. He told me this after his talk with Hitler in 1943 about Stalingrad. He told me that he had proposed not only to get rid of Keitel but also of Ribbentrop and that about the whole line of foreign police, it was high time to abandon the old line of foreign policy and make peace because militarily the war could not be won.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2106, "page_number": "1678", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "Even if one confined oneself to the defense of one's own land, the only possibility was, by switching over to a defense, one could show the enemy that he could not penetrate into Germany, and therefore he would be more inclined to make peace.\nQAnd Keitel at that time was Field Marshal, was he not?\nAYes.\nQHe was head of OKW, wasn't he, under Hitler?\nAYes, indeed.\nQAs a matter of fact, there wasn't anybody higher in the German Wehrmacht than Keitel, was there?\nAThe position of the OKW is a difficult one. The OKW did not have an immediate power of command to the various branches of the Wehrmacht. The branches of the Wehrmacht were immediately under Hitler. Therefore Keitel, knowing that, gave orders on behalf of the Fuehrer. He issued orders of a. general nature. There was also a supreme General Staff above all these branches of the Wehrmacht. The OKW was more concerned with problems common to all three branches of the Wehrmacht, such as prisoners of war, managing questions of leave, the financial matters, legal proceedings; and this branch of the Wehrmacht after all had its own channel of thought.\nQAt any rate, Milch wanted Hitler to get rid of Keitel?\nAYes, because in his opinion he was a man who always said \"Yes\", and had no opinion of his own.\nQNow, he was invited to go to Campiegne; but he declined?\nAYes, he told me that sometime ago.\nQHe told you that before the war was over, didn't he?\nAOh, yes. SinceAugust 1944 we didn't talk to each other.\nQYou weren't \"mad\" at him, were you?\nAOh, no, not at all.\nQNow, you said that he had a lot of signatures to sign every day. How many times did you say he had to write his name?", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2107, "page_number": "1679", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "AI personally know that I had to write my own name five hundred or six hundred times a day; and the Field Marshal certainly would not have to sign less. If anything, he would have to sign more.\nQWhat were all these signatures about? Do you know?\nAThey were letters which went to the General Staff; letters from the aircraft industry; replies to letters from offices of the armament ministry; orders to take trips. For instance, I had to sign all of the travel orders of all members of the aircraft industry who wanted to go abroad. They all had to have a voucher; and I had to sign that voucher.\nQYou say you also took papers home at night to sign?\nAYes. I know that Field Marshal Milch usually took two, one or two suitcases home with him in the evening. I saw myself that his chauffeur had these suitcases during the evening; and he brought them back in the morning because in the morning one usually waited for him in his ante-chamber to tell him what had happened during the night.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Witness, if you were in your office ten hours every day, and you signed six hundred papers, that means one every minute for the entire day without any time for lunch or anything else.\nAThese signatures I only gave usually in the evening when the conferences were over.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Speaking of lunch, we will adjourn.\nTHE MARSHAL:This Tribunal is in recess until 1330 this afternoon.\n(A recess was taken until 1330 hours.)", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "A", "THE PRESIDENT", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2108, "page_number": "1680", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "AFTERNOON SESSION (The Hearing reconvened at 1330 hours, 11 March 1947)\nTHE MARSHAL:The Tribunal is again in session.\nBY MR. DENNEY:\nQ.Did you ever inspect a plant near Melk, Austria? The plant that was in or near a place called St. Georgen?\nA.No.\nQ.You did not know anything about that?\nA.No, I don't. I know of visiting on aircraft factory near there; maybe the factory is in Wiener Neustadt, that is, the Steyr-Works.\nQ.You mean by Neustadt, that was one of the places where they had Russians manning the anti-aircraft guns, was it not?\nA.I don't know that because the flak was not under my command later.\nQ.Did they ever have any meetings in the General Luftzeugmeister?\nA.Yes, they were, of course, twice a week. On Tuesday and on Friday. On Tuesday it was the supply meeting, and on Friday, the development meeting.\nQ.How many people used to attend them?\nA.At the beginning there were very few, but later on they were quite a few, approximately forty to fifty people on on average.\nQ.How many trips did you make to Hungary?\nA.Three.\nQ.And when were they?\nA. 1942 and 1943.\nQ.You never went there in 1944?\nA.No.\nQ.Did you go to the Central Planning Board meetings, ever?\nA.No, I did not.\nQ.Did you ever see the results of the meetings?\nA.No, I did not.", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "A.", "Q." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2109, "page_number": "", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "QDid you know anything about what went on there?\nAYes, I did. Yes, the raw materials were distributed. The orders were distributed there according to the Hitler order for the program of the Wehrmacht branches.\n1680 a", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2110, "page_number": "1681", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "Q.You never know anything about a report of a meeting on 22 July 1942 which said that Gen. Reimecke and Fieldmarshall Milch would undertake the accelerating of the procurement of Russian prisoners of War in the camp?\nA.No, I can not remember that.\nQ.Well you said that Hitler had ordered that no French should be used in the Alsace?\nA.Yes, and no Frenchmen were used. After the order came from Hitler I don't know. However, the Frenchmen were not used. Apart from the Russians, no enemy nationals wore used.\nQ.You never had any other kind of employees other than Russian and French and Germans?\nA.Employees? What kind of employees? Employed by whom do you mean?\nQ.By the Luftwaffe, working in their plant.\nA.I did not see any more other them the Russians and the French.\nQ.That is all you knew about?\nA.Yes, sir.\nQ.And you made about sixty trips to various factories over the period from 1941 to 1944?\nA.Yes, but a great larger part of the trips only dealt with the development furnished. In those development factories only Germans were employed.\nQ.You spoke about prisoners of war being released on the basis of being recalled. What do you mean by that?\nA.Well, that was a case where the French, or Frenchmen according to their agreement with time French Government of Vichy had released or had to be released until further notice. In other words, in case there should be certain existence of foreign policy, then they could be recalled. The same also opplies to Dutchmen and Belgians.\nQ.What were you going to do with the Dutch and Belgians when you got them back?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2111, "page_number": "", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "A.The Dutch and the Belgians, all we wanted to say was that they were being released also until further notice from captivity.\n1681 A", "speakers": [ "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2112, "page_number": "1682", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "QThey were releasing them until further notice, and then the time would come when they re-arrested them?\nANo, the Dutch and the Belgiums worked in their own country.\nQWhom did they work for?\nAI did not know that in detail. So far as I know they were long in their own factories in Belgium and Holland. I know that some of them worked in the firm Fokker, and where they manufactured the Dornier-24 down there.\nQThe Dornier-2d, that was a Luftwaffe plane, wasn't it?\nAThat was a plane which would rescue pilots who fell into the water. In other words, Germans or Americans or British. In other words, it was a sea plane.\nQYou wore not making it for the Lufthansa, were you? You were making it for the Luftwaffe?\nAYes, but that in itself it was not armed, it was not a war plane, it was just a sea-rescue plane.\nQDid you know anything about people who told the French prisoners of war they were going to work in baby carriage factories?\nANo.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2113, "page_number": "1683", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "QDid you know anything about people who told the French prisoners of war that they were going to work in baby carriage factories?\nANo.\nQYou never heard of a Luftwaffe factory referred to as a baby carriage factory?\nANo.\nQHow about Milch and Himmler? Did you ever see them together?\nANo, I did not.\nQYou never heard Milch say anything about he was going to have recourse to Himmler and some of the people under him to take care of some of these workers?\nANo. I know only that Field Marshal Milch once told me that he had also spoken to Himmler in order to get through with his defense program and that Himmler himself was also interested in that in order to make certain arrangements with the Fuehrer on that program.\nQThat is the defensive war as opposed to offensive war?\nAYes.\nQYou never heard Milch say anything to anybody to speak to Reinecke and ensure that French prisoners of war who did not work would be shot?\nANo.\nQYou knew who Reinecke was?\nANo, I don't.\nQYou never heard of General Reinecke?\nANo, I haven't.\nQWho was in charge of the prisoners of war for the OKW?\nAWell, now I do remember him, yes, but I could not recall the name.\nQYou remember him now, though.\nAYes.\nQYou never heard Milch say anything about sending French civilians and prisoners of war to Germany to do work?", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2114, "page_number": "1684", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "ANo. That in itself would have been in contradiction with our whole program, because we had an agreement with France concerning the production of planes and engines. These factories, after difficulties which they had at the beginning, worked very well toward the end. For instance, the Junkers, or U-52, was manufactured there, and in Germany we did not manufacture any more Junker 52's. They were manufactured only in France and Hungary.\nQDid you know that concentration camp inmates were working in the munitions plants?\nANo, I didn't, and I never visited ammunition factories because the ammunition manufacture, with the exception of those that I mentioned before, those secret plane ammunitions, was not under our command and order, but some of it was dealt with by the army itself.\nQAnd you never heard Milch say anything about concentration camp inmates being used in ammunition plants?\nANo.\nQAnd did you know that Italian prisoners of war were being used in ammunition plants?\nANo.\nQYou never heard Milch say anything about that?\nANo.\nQDid you ever hear Milch say anything about the billeting conditions of these foreign laborers, or any kind of laborers who were working at the factories, aircraft factories?\nAYes, he saw to it that the billeting should be better because at the beginning we had difficulties, and also insofar as clothes were concerned.\nQAll the orders he gave were to improve conditions?\nAYes, indeed.\nQYou said that -- By the way, are you a pilot?\nAYes, I am.\nQHow many hours have you had in the air?\nA", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2115, "page_number": "1685", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "A.I have the military pilot's permit. For that it was necessary to have approximately 200 to 300 hours of flying time.\nQ.When did you qualify as a pilot?\nA.In 1940.\nQ.Did you ever--\nA.That was the last time. I started in 1938.\nQ. 1938. Did you ever use an oxygen mask?\nA.No, I did not.\nQ.Well, how high have you flown in planes that you piloted yourself?\nA.Up to 4500 meters.\nQ.You never went any higher than that?\nA.When I was piloting myself, no.\nQ.Did you ever go up higher then that in a plane that somebody else was piloting?\nA.Yes, I have during the war. I made several flights, and I went as high as 6,000 meters. That is when we used an oxygen mask.\nQ.You went under oxygen about when?\nA.From 5,000 meters on.\nQ. 5000 meters without going into oxygen?\nA.Yes. People reacted differently. Some of them needed some, but some did not. I always used on oxygen mask after 5,000 meters.\nQ.That was part of your training as a student pilot, was it not?\nA.Yes. Well, I already mentioned that as a pilot I went up to only 4,500 meters, and those were the conditions and terms for altitude flights that were necessary for the pilot's license.\nQ.But when you were studying they told you that there would come a time when you would pass into an altitude when you would need to put on the oxygen mask?\nA.Yes. In these planes which we used for schooling purposes, we did not have any oxygen masks.\nQ.But you know when you were a student pilot that when you got up over 5,000 meters you would have to go on oxygen.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2116, "page_number": "1686", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "A.Up to 4,500 I did not fool anything. Up to 4,500 meters everything went fine.\nQ.Beyond that you had to go into oxygen?\nA.Yes, that is the way I did it.\nQ.Now, you said Milch turned down a gift of 50,000 Reichsmarks from the aircraft industry?\nA.Yes, by Admiral Laas. He was the president of the Union of German Air Industry, and in the name of the air industry he wanted to present him with a gift of 50,000 Marks, which Milch, as he told me himself, refused. Admiral Laas confirmed that later on to me.\nQ.That was his 50th birthday, was it not?\nA.Yes.\nQ.Did you know of any other sum of money which was given to him on his 50th birthday?\nA.If it was for his birthday I do not know, but I know that he got a gift, a bonus, from Hitler.\nQ.What was the bonus he got from Hitler?\nA.That was a certain amount of money, I believe that it amounted to 250,000 Marks, and he told me himself that he considered that the difference between his former higher wages as director of the Lufthansa and what he was making as a general.\nQ.And this was in 1945, was it?\nA.I can not tell you the exact date, but I believe it must have been around 1943.\nQ.He got 250,000 Reichsmarks from Hitler?\nA.Yes.\nQ.Did you ever inspect underground factories?\nA.What do you mean \"underground\"?\nQ.Factories that were not on top of the ground.\nA.Yes, I did, right here near Fuerth, near Nurnberg. There was a factory, Wachmann and Blumental, a repair shop for planes.\nQ.When did they build that?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2117, "page_number": "1687", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "A.The factory had already existed during peacetime, and then it was changed, reconverted. First it was a wagon factory, and then it was reconverted into a repair shop for Messerschmitt planes. These underground factories were brewery cellars, in which the entire mechanical factories were situated.\nQ.Did you ever inspect any other underground factory?\nA.Yes, I believe that in the Harz there was also a factory there which we saw. That was in a cave.\nQ.Would you mind spelling that for me?\nA.I can not remember the name exactly. I believe it was near Ernstedt.\nQ.Where is Ernstedt? In Germany?\nA.Yes, in Germany, on the Harz. That is a small group of mountains south of Braunsehweig.\nQ.You knew what the Protectorate was, didn't you, when anybody referred to that?\nA.I did not quite understand the question.\nQ.If some one used the term, \"the Protectorate\", you knew what they were talking about?\nA. \"Protectorate\"? Yes, that was Bohemia and Moravia.\nQ.You said that you discussed these altitude experiments with Milch, and you agreed that there should be no activity carried on above what height?\nA.We had agreed at the time that we would not carry on experiments over 14,000 meters, because we doubted that planes would never attain such a height with manned aeroplanes during the war.\nQ.And when was it that you had the discussion?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2118, "page_number": "1688", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "QWhen was that, that you had that discussion?\nAI cannot tell you that exactly, but it was probably in 1942 when the high altitude development question was being discussed.\nQAnd what happened after that?\nAThe research offices, the research departments were informed of our wish. During those development conferences and meetings there was always a representative of the research council or Reichsmarshal was present, who would give necessary instructions to his institute what wish had been expressed by the Luftwaffe in matters of research.\nQDid you ever talk to Milch about sea rescues?\nAThe sea-rescue planes, yes. We discussed those as well because they were also in our manufacturing field, and after all the various planes we used did not succeed in helping us. We finally developed the Dornier plane, 24, which turned out to be a very good sea-rescue plane, and later on we did not have any further complaints with those planes so that the sea-rescue service did not object to it, and the number of planes built also corresponded with the number required, or requested.\nQWhen was that that you discussed the sea rescue?\nAThat occurred during various G. L. meetings we had. It was no special meeting. It was one of the points of the program which was discussed once in a while and was in the daily order.\nQNow, I asked you once before if you knew Dr. Benzinger?\nAYes, I knew him from Rechlin, yes.\nQSo you did know him.\nAYes.\nQDo you recall being there, and don't you recall seeing a movie with him in September, 1942?\nANo, I don't.\nQIf Dr. Benzinger said you were there he is mistaken?", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2119, "page_number": "1689", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "AThat cannot be possible. I never saw Dr. Benzinger in Berlin but only in Rechlin two or three times. That is when I met him in the evening, that is all.\nQIn conjunction with these directives that you gave for the aviation experiments, did they carry out their experiments in accordance with the expressed wishes which were made by you?\nAIn Rechlin, you mean?\nQThe altitude experiments.\nAThe altitude experiments took place in part also in Rechlin. I said before that in Rechlin was the main testing group of the Luftwaffe, and all the planes were tested there which were being delivered by the industry. Whatever was still in development state was not under the F. L., and I never visited the research factory of the Luftwaffe.\nQWell, but you said that you and Milch agreed that 14,000 meters was high enough altitude to go into in these experiments.\nAYes. We regarded that as a line, borderline, so that the experiments wouldn't go too far but would only have to attain a certain aim, and it was always planned that way.\nQAnd so far as you know they complied with your wishes in that regard?\nAYes.\nQYou spoke about this meeting with Himmler over defense. Do you remember when that took place?\nANo, I don't, but I believe it was in 1943. The Field Marshal told me that., He told me that he had availed himself of the opportunity, he had met Himmler in the headquarters to get, also to win him for the defense program of the Luftwaffe, in other words, to have him see his point.\nQHis point being to fight a defensive war as opposed to an offensive war?", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2120, "page_number": "1690", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "AYes.\nQThis was in 1943?\nAYes. The idea itself was the reenforcement of the defense power. That idea which came from Milch had already been mentioned before. However, in 1943 the matter became of the utmost urgency, for all the heavy night and daylight raids of the Anglo-Americans over Germany had taken place.\nQIn 1943 you were out of Africa, weren't you?\nANo, I myself was never inAfrica.\nQThe German army, the Wehrmacht, they weren't in Africa any more in 1943?\nAWell, in 1943, no, they weren't there any longer.\nQOf course, you were still in the Low Countries and in France and Norway?\nAGreece.\nQBut you weren't advancing any place much, were you?\nANo.\nQNow, these experiments that had to do with cold water and air sea rescue, was there anything connected with freezing experiments that you knew about?\nAI do not know that because I only heard of these experiments in May, 1945, through the press in one of the Munich papers, and then, of course, through my examination by Americans in Dachau itself. That was in September, 1945.\nMR. DENNEY:No further questions.\nREDIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. BERGOLD:\nQWitness, you have mentioned the fact, you spoke about the sea rescue planes. In one phase, sea rescue planes in the Luftwaffe were a similar institution as the hospital ships in the navy?", "speakers": [ "A", "MR. DENNEY", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2121, "page_number": "1691", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "AYes, absolutely.\nQIn such experiments were discussed, in other words, the point of their altitude, in going to sea rescues, were those human experiments or were they only discussing the technical side of the question, which, for us, was the important thing and which we were responsible for.\nQWitness, the question of the flak, ack ack, antiaircraft was discussed several times today. Who was in charge of the flak as a branch of the Luftwaffe, the G. L. or who was it?\nAThe ack ack was under the Luftgaus as far as it only concerned the hone defense. Apart from that they had a flak course or ack ack course at the front. These flak courses were under the air fleets which fought at the front, and apart from those the army, for its own protection, had its own flak which was called the army flak, or army ack ack.\nQThe home flak, Witness, according to your statement, was under the Luftgau. These Luftgaus were they now under the G. L. or Milch respectively?\nANo, the Luftgaus were under the Luftfleet of the Reich in Berlin, or Reich Luftfleet shortly before the end of the war. There was another supervision later on. They were never under the G. L. it was a troop, and no troop was under the G. L., but only officers and departments of the ministry and their testing department.\nQThe airfleet Reich, was that under the G. L. then?\nANo, it was under Goering immediately, just as all the other fleet chiefs.\nQDid the G. L. have anything to do with the flak, with the home flak which had to be set up for the defense of the factories, or who was it ordered that?\nAThat had been ordered by Hitler himself. In the first order, that was issued by Hitler, I was present.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2122, "page_number": "1692", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "That was the 4th of November, 1941 at the headquarters in eastern Prussia.\nQIt set up the number and the driving. In other words, had nothing to do with the factory?\nANo, nothing at all.\nQOf the factories there were home flaks. You mentioned that before, factories that were manned by factory workers?\nAYes.\nQWho were they under, under the factories?\nANo, they were also under the Luftgaus.\nQIn other words, there was an additional force?\nAYes. They had only a few soldiers, the gunner, the battery leader and their own officers. The others were soldiers or civilians who only worked during alert times and were always present at night. Apart from those there were all the Luftwaffe aids. These were the young pupils.\nQThese civilians during the time you were there at the home flak, were they on the same basis as the soldiers?\nAYes.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2123, "page_number": "1693", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "QWitness, this morning you spoke about the Jaegerstab meetings. The prosecution asked you who presided during those Jaegerstab meetings when Milch was present. Would you like to repeat your answer?\nAThe presidency was always in Mr. Sauer's hands. In other words, Mr. Sauer was the president during those meetings.\nQWas that the practical chairmanship or do you mean that Milch was there as an honorary title?\nAYes, he was the chairman, but the meeting was led by Sauer.\nQIn other words, do you want so say that, practical chairmanship?\nAYes.\nQWitness, I shall now come back to the speech to the Air Ordnance Quartermaster Generals. The prosecution mentioned to you a number of passages or sentences which were said, that the international law did not play any part and that these foreign laborers should be whipped and similar remarks. You said that you never heard anything about those things. Does that mean that you never heard it or do you mean that you never remembered?\nAI cannot remember these words. For instance, the word \"whip\", I cannot remember that, because had it been used, then I am sure that I would have remembered. I never heard that.\nQWere you constantly present during that particular speech?\nAYes.\nQWitness, you spoke of female Ukranians. Do you know on what sort of planes these women worked?\nAMost of the time they worked on transport planes.\nQWitness, another term was used before, that foreigners were employees of the Luftwaffe. Was such a formulation correct?\nANo, one cannot say that. They were employees of the firm. By Luftwaffe employees we mean something entirely different, for instance, a clerk in the ministry, but these people are not employees of the Luftwaffe, but only employees or workers of the respective firms to which they were assigned.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2124, "page_number": "1694", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "QNow, my last question, witness. We shall come back to that letter. These letters which you signed, did you read them?\nANo, one could not do that. For instance, these travel orders, these last travel orders which I mentioned, I just glanced through them, that's all. I had given orders to my adjutant to look through the things in order that there should not be certain travel orders which had been smuggled in there for people who did not need them absolutely, to take them out, and he showed me those travel orders in particular. As far as the rest is concerned, I just signed them without even looking through them, without even reading them, because it was absolutely impossible to go through every travel order and to examine it.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:May I ask a question please?\nEXAMINATION BY JUDGE MUSMANNO:\nQYou would distinguish, would you not, between a mere formal routine signing and the signing of a rather important communication?\nAYes.\nQSo that if there was placed upon your desk a letter of some importance, indicating some policy, you would read it carefully and then sign it. That is true, is it not?\nAYes, I usually carried it out in the following way; that important things were shown to me by the man who was working on it, and I signed them in his presence. The things which were less important were put in certain folders on our table and in the evening I looked through them and signed them. What I mentioned last were those big heaps of travel orders. There it was a routine matter, nothing else.\nQ (By Dr. Bergold): Witness, did you look through all those letters in the folders?\nAWell, it all depended. In other words, if I was tired on that particular day, then I could not read through everything. I only looked at the letterhead, whom it came from, and then I signed it. We had so much work to do at the time that it was absolutely impossible to read every single letter in itself.", "speakers": [ "JUDGE MUSMANNO", "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2125, "page_number": "1695", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "DR. BERGOLD:I have no further questions to put to the witness.\nMR. DENNEY:I have one question, Your Honors, which I forgot to put to the witness.\nRECROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. DENNEY:\nQYou have your soldiers' book with you, do you not?\nAYes.\nQAnd there are some ten commandments for the German soldier just inside on the front page, are there not?\nAThey are not in my booklet, but I do know them.\nQYou are an old soldier. You learned those when you first went in the Army, didn't you?\nAThirty years.\nQWell, tell the Court what those ten commandments are.\nAThey say the following, approximately: The fight has to be led in the chivalrous way.", "speakers": [ "A", "DR. BERGOLD", "MR. DENNEY", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2126, "page_number": "1696", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "The fight is to be fought in uniform. Prisoners who surrender are not to be shot or killed. The Red Cross is to be observed. Neutral territory may not be stopped on or flown over. Prisoners of war are to be treated in a humane way; their belongings belong to them, and they will stay with them and also their ranks and decorations. The fight is not against the civilian population; the civilian population is to be treated well, particularly the honor of the women. No looting must be done. Reprisals may only be carried out on orders of the higher leadership. Requisitioning and confiscations can only be carried out on proper orders and only be paying those people. That's about the contents, generally speaking.\nQDo you know whether or not the SS had similar principles?\nAI do not know that. I never had anything to do with the SS.\nDR. BERGOLD:No further questions, your Honor.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The Marshal may escort this witness from the courtroom.\n(Witness excused.)\nDR. BERGOLD:May it please this Tribunal, I would appreciate it if Mr. Milch could be called to the witness stand.\nERHARDMILCH, the defendant, took the stand and testified as follows:\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:The defendant will raise his right hand repeat after me. I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.\n(The defendant repeated the oath.)\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:You may be seated.\nDIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. BERGOLD:\nQWitness, I do not have to tell you the same thing I tell all the other witnesses; namely, that you should speak slowly and all that. You have heard that several times.\nGive your full name.\nAErhard Milch.", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "ERHARD", "Q", "A", "JUDGE MUSMANNO" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2127, "page_number": "", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "QWhen and where were you born?\nAOn 30 March 1892, in Wilhelmshaven.\nQWho were your parents?\n1696a", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2128, "page_number": "1697", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "A.My father was a clerk with the Jar Navy, with the Kriegsmarine, and my mother was born Vetter.\nQ.What education did you have?\nA.I attended the gymnasium in Wilhelmshaven, and then from 1905 on I went to the Joachimsthalsche gymnasium in Berlin.\nQ.When did you mat riculate?\nA.In February, 1910.\nQ.What did you study then?\nA.I didn't study, but four days later I went to the First Infantry Artillery Regiment in Koeningsberg in Eastern Prussia, and I joined that regiment as a cadet.\nQ.Did you ever receive a personal bonus for saving somebody's life?\nA.Yes, in 1907, by the Government Counsellor, von Stralsund.\nQ.That was At the time when you were a soldier?\nA.No, in 1907. I was still in school then. I was in the third but last class.\nQ.Would you now tell us briefly your military training?\nA.First of all I was in the Regiment for eight months. Three months out of that I had recruit training, basic training, and then I joined the battery. In the autumn of 1910 I attended the Kaiser maneuver in Eastern Prussia, Oh the 1st of October 1910 I visited the War School in Anklam. After nine months there I passed the officers' examination. Then I returned to my regiment and on the 18th of August through a special order then I became Lieutenant. My licence became two years older. Three years in sequence I trained recruits and in 1913 I went through an additional course for artillery officers in the artillery school in Jueterberg in Berlin, and there I reported for the first time in the airfleet. However, later on I didn't get the permission from my commander.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2129, "page_number": "1698", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "QWitness, what political education did you have during your military career and as a young officer?\nAWhen I was an officer, and even when I was at home, the questions were to be true to the Kaiser and fatherland and true to my home country. That was the only political education I ever got. The soldier should not deal with political questions, and he has no right to vote. I never understood anything of politics and I did not know anything about it.\nQWas that the general military training concerning the policy which was usual in Germany?\nAYes, it was usual in Germany, and the Kaiser was the only one who wad our superior commander and he was the only one we were responsible to. All the other political institutions had no connection whatsoever to us, and there were no superiors for us. The education in that direction was stressed by the higher-ups.\nQWitness, we have repeatedly mentioned here -- or, witnesses have repeatedly mentioned --- that you used very strong words, strong expressions. Did you learn those when you were a young soldier?\nAAt that time it was used among soldiers -- words were not placed on a golden scale. Everywhere and always we swore a lot; we cursed a lot. However, I can assure you that it was never meant in a bad way or serious way. Our soldiers were very willing in spite of that fact.\nThere were certain abuses of the disciplinary regulations. The official legal way was, during such abuses, to punish them with arrest. That is, he was put in prison for one, two, three days, and sometimes for several weeks In my regiment, as well as with all other regiments of Eastern Prussia, the young soldier was not afraid of -- as he was very scared of an arrest; because, then, after the first year he could not be promoted to corporal; and, after the second year, could not be promoted to NCO.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2130, "page_number": "1699", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "I never punished a man with arrest for that very simple reason. However, I told him my opinion about his small incident, and sometimes by using strong words so that it actually worked on him, and so that no repetitions occurred. Otherwise, I would not have been able to protest him from being punished with arrest. That is sufficient.\nQWitness, what were you used for during the first war?\nAOn the first ofAugust, I becameAdjutant of the Second Battalion of the Regiment, and used as such. The Battalion consisted of four batteries and one night ammunition column. Very soon we went up to the front in the East where the Russians had penetrated at several points. My battalion fought in the battle of Gumbinnen on the twentieth of August 1914. Then Tannenberg, Villerstellen and Tisset, etc., etc. In the winter cf 1914-15, we returned to eastern Prussia and we occupied the so-called Angerab position. From that position, in February, 1915, we started the winter campaign, the winter battle; and we ended this winter battle in Poland which, at that time, was Russian territory.\nQWitness, can you give us the whole thing in broader lines? We do not want a war history; we just want the broad outlines...\nAWell, we had a position-warfare down there, and the great battles were over. I dad not like it any more in the artillery. It was interesting enough, however, and I availed myself of the first opportunity to join the Air Force. I succeeded in doing so the first of July, 1915; after having received my basic training, I went to the Verdun front in autumn, and stayed there during the battles in 1916.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2131, "page_number": "1700", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "In the summer of 1916 my Group was transferred to the Some, when the Allied attack there had been on for fourteen days.\nIn the winter I had a greater command which had something to do with organisation and training. In 1917 I was Deputy of Flight, Group Commander, which was near Lille. That Group dealt with long-range reconnaissance. Then, in the spring of 1918, I was put on the General Staff List as candidate. As such, I was put in charge of an infantry company near Arras, Later on, I was put in charge of a field artillery battery, a so-called sturm (accompanying) battery, escort battery. From there on I was put in charge of a flight group, as the commander of it. As far as calling up was concerned, to general staff meetings, did not take place because the war had already progressed too far, I was very glad that I could stay at the front. My Group was in Flanders, in the sector of Ypern. From there on, during the last weeks of the war, I was put in charge of the command, commander of the fighter group which consisted of four squadrons. And I remained in that position --- or, in that position somewhere, the revolution and the collapse took place. I marched back with my troops and took care of the demobilization as had been ordered. And I took that in Graudenz on the Weichsel.\nThen I put myself at the disposal of the General Command of the Seventeenth Corps, and was then by the Chief of Staff of the General Command, used for my first political task.\nQWitness, before we reach that point, I would like to ask you a question which I would like to interpolate here. Were you ever wounded during the first war?\nAYes; I had several wounds, but they were rather of a Slight kind. I could stay with my troops.\nQWitness, before you describe to us your activity after the end of the war, with these political tasks, I would like you to tell me what was your opinion about the loss of the war in general.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2132, "page_number": "", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "AAs every other soldier, I was very very sad about it. We never expected such an end. And we never found out how such an end actually occurred 1700a I knew one thing, however.", "speakers": [ "A" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2133, "page_number": "1701", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "Namely, we had been beaten on the field; that the war, speaking militaristically, had come to an end, and that the revolution was just a small addition to the whole fight. The war would have been lost even without the revolution.\nQYou know that in Germany they were speaking of having been stabbed in the back. Do you agree with that?\nANo, I don't, because one could not reproach the German people for that. During the war there had been certain revolts at certain points, but they were of only small importance; and the strikes which took place towards the end in Germany were, according to my opinion, only the reaction of the terrific starvation which had taken place due to the blockade all over Germany.\nQIn other words, you are of the same opinion as the militaries that the ammunition workers' strike lead to the end of the war?\nAWe soldiers thought that this was just propaganda.\nQTell me, were you of that opinion already at that time -- or is it your opinion today?\nAI would not state my opinion at that time if I would not have felt the same way at that tine already.\nQWhat was your nickname because of your political opinion and attitude within the circle of the land-owners?\nAThe Red Captain.\nQTell me, now, about your first political tasks.\nAIn the field of the SeventeenthArmy Corps, on various points, armed bands had formed themselves. They were soldiers who had returned from the war and who did not agree with the situation prevailing at the time. They wanted to fight for their rights with the weapon in their hand. Their political knowledge, however,was not sufficient to tell of whom they wanted to fight against.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2134, "page_number": "", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "They were fighting against everyone and everybody who did not grant them whatever they wanted to have. I went to see the leaders of those gangs. There were three actions I carried out altogether; and I had to convince the captains of these gangs, or the commanders and the chiefs, that they were wrong in their ideas and that they should lay down their weapons; otherwise the general command of the 17th corps would take action. I was all by myself at that time; and no troop could have been put at my disposal in order to enable me to carry out the task. With the help of the Social Democrat fundtionaties I succeeded in quieting down these gangs. In all three cases they dropped their weapons; and then I had the general command get them. These actions lasted over a period of several weeks because sometimes the first attempt was not very successful.\nQWitness, could you stay in the Reichswehr which was then instituted?\nAYes. When the action which I have just described was ended, I applied for use at the front as a customs guard. I was there in charge of an air group, a fighter group or something, until the end of the boundary protection; and only at this point the question arose of who was to join the Reichswehr. I was offered the opportunity of taking over a flyers' group of the 17th corps and an army which at the time was expected to contain 200,000 men. I accepted that offer.\nThen, however, only 100,000 men were allowed us by the peace treaty and that without flyers. I was put in charge of an infantry company; but before I could take it over, I was offered a larger group of planes or flyers, which was working and in cooperation with the Landespolizei which had been created at that time. This was not a transfer to the police but only a command. Nothing happened, however, with that matter because the police were allowed to have police air force units and so-called air police, although they were not allowed to have the planes. Thereupon, I renounced taking this command. I did not want to stay in the army any longer. In the meantime the first fi* beginnings of a commercial airline were being put into execution.\nQWitness, we shall come back to that later.\nDR. BERGOLD:I would ask the Tribunal that we have a recess.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Very well.\nTHE MARSHAL:The tribunal is in recess for fifteen minutes.\n(A recess was taken.) 1702", "speakers": [ "A", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "Q", "THE MARSHAL" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2135, "page_number": "1703", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "THE MARSHAL:This Tribunal is again in session.\nBY DR. BERGOLD:\nQ.Witness, you have explained to us your attitude with regard to the military losses in the First World War. Now what attitude did you adopt with regard to the Versailles Treaty?\nA.The Versailles Treaty was not considered by me to be a good treaty. This treaty could not bring peace to Europe. That Versailles Treaty would lead to numerous difficulties.\nQ.Witness, please describe to us how you went into the aviation business after your remaining in the German army forces that were sent out by you.\nA.At the beginning of the air traffic, probably with the end of the war, and then in 1921, there arrived on the scene a number of airway companies. I got into touch with one of them, since this company turned to eastern territory, as the first company, and it made this territory, or it started there. I was offered the management, the aviation management of this company at Danzig. The North German Lloyd at Bremen was back of the corporation, as well as the Junkers, Dessaru, and the Albatros works at Berlin. I accepted this position and resigned from the armed forces.", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "A.", "Q." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2136, "page_number": "1704", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "Q.And what were your activities in the commercial company?\nA.In the beginning I had to deal with the aircraft and their departure at Danzig, the aeroplanes that used to arrive from Berlin through Stettin, and they left Danzig for Koenigsberg and back.\nSometime later it became important at Danzig, which had now becomeL freecity, that a subsidiary company should be formed, which was a small limited company, the management of which, simultaneously with the other tasks, I was working on. Later the management of the entire route from the technical point of view was handed over to me, so that the clearance offices in Berlin, Stettin, and Koenigsberg were also under my jurisdiction.\nThen we started flying to Lithuania and to Kowno, and there we received a concession to extend our lines to that point. The same applied a little later to Latvia, to Riga, that is. In the winter traffic was discontinued at that time for reasons of weather, and during that period I used to work in the central offices in Berlin or during later winters in the factory at Dessau.\nIn 1922 the shareholders parted Company. The Junkers works retained their part of the service, whereas the North German Lloyd and the others began an enterprise of their own. The Junker works had approached me at the beginning of my activity, and I remained with Junkers. In 1922 I received instructions to get in touch with foreign commercial aviation companies, which were taking up close connections with the Junkers Works. These foreign corporations were buying Junkers aeroplanes. At that time the first real commercial planes in Europe were the Junkers planes, while the remaining commercial traffic was handled by means of converted combatant aircraft.\nThe first corporation I visited was the Swiss air company, called Ad/Astra at that time. I intended to assist the chiefs of that company in starting air traffic. This air traffic was then connected with the air traffic handled by the Junkers firm, but they understood their business well enough, so that it was more a question of a friendly visit which has continued amongst the survivors up to this day.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2137, "page_number": "1705", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "Subsequently I had a similar task in Austria and, following that, in Hungary. Later, during the following year, the same applied to Sweden, but as early as the autumn of 1922 I met a few Polish industrialists and was in turn led to the forming of a Polish company, which, however, was buying German material from Junkers, which was being used on the routes Danzig, Lemburg, Cracow. For the first eighteen months, as long as I myself was at Danzig, I was the technical chief for this Polish company, too; that is to say, simultaneously.\nIn this manner I used to make frequent journeys to Poland in order to negotiate with these business friends of ours on the spot. That was not a particularly easy affair at the time, particularly so far as the Poles were concerned, because these Poles depended upon Trance, and pressure was applied to them not to buy German material.\nIn the spring of 1924 -- and just previously I had been called to the central office in Berlin in order to take over the entire management, the flying management of this firm -- I was offered to take over a command in South America. In 1923 the Junkers Works had started a flying expedition there, but that had got stuck. Junkers were afraid that through this they would suffer considerable loss of prestige for their firm, and so they gave me the assignment to take over a certain number of aircraft and continue this expedition.\nI left in February of 1924, going to Pernambuco, Bahia, where I took over the old expedition, or rather, liquidated it. I went to Rio, and from Rio I went by air to Buenos Aires, taking along these aircraft. There the first foundations were laid for local airways companies, which, of course, during subsequent times, using German equipment, German aircraft, supplied particularly by the Junkers firm and the firm of Dornier, continued to work, and later in the case of the Hansa, this led to the traffic being handled jointly, mostly only for mail, which twice weekly went from Berlin via Rio de Janeiro, Buenos Aires, to Chile, and the remainder of the American west coast.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2138, "page_number": "1706", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "In the autumn of 1924. Professor Junkers had gone to the United States, following an invitation by Henry Ford. Ford at that time was interested in the construction of aeroplanes, and he wished to establish closer connections with Professor Junkers in that field. As technical advisor, as it was called there, I was called upon by Professor Junkers.\nWhen I arrived, Professor Junkers had already left for Germany, and his arrangements with Ford had not been concluded. I paid a short visit to them, and their factories were shown to me by one of Ford's collaborators, and for the first time in my life I saw manufacturing that used moving belts going on. I was deeply impressed by this visit, since it was put on a basis completely different from that which I had previously seen in Germany.\nI was given the order to return to Germany. This was at the end of 1924. In Germany I worked in the future in the central offices under the directors. I was not a member of the board of directors, of course. I worked under the two presidents of the company, and I was given the task to take charge of the management of all the flying business, technical questions, questions of passengers and freight and mail. The financial matters were not dealt with by me.\nAt that time there were two commercial air traffic companies in Germany, the only two remaining out of the original thirty-four. Both companies, Junkers alone on one side, and all the other large banking corporations and shipping companies on the other, as well as various other big firms such as the AEG, for instance, were involved in a considerable competitive struggle against each other. The government got fed up with this, and when Junkers get into financial difficulties, due to reasons other than air lines, since the sale of air craft was not really a good business in Germany at the time with the military buyer completely lacking, the government used the opportunity to force a fusion.\nOn that occasion the government turned down both the presidents of the Junkers corporation, and the shareholders chose me as the director who had to join the new company on behalf of the Junkers.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2139, "page_number": "1707", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "The presidents of the other company remained in office, and that meant that there were three of us. The new corporation was called the Deutschelufthansa, German Lufthansa; this company began to operate in the autumn of 1925, but the official formation date was January 8, 1926. I was in charge, in this board of directors of three, of technical questions and the flying business itself. Some one else was in charge of the financial and. commercial problems, and the third -\nQ.This is not so important. Please continue.\nA.I considered this work which I joined, having at my disposal an excellent staff, the task for life. I made particular efforts and was known amongst all commercial air companies abroad for the principle that air traffic should be formed, in the first place, considering safety as the first question. This was the first time blind flying came up; let us say flying without visibility to the ground, and it was then that this was developed into a secure matter. All instruments which were being developed, for this purpose were properly developed by us.\nIn 1928, I think it was, difficulties arose between the government of the Reich -- that is to say, the Reich Ministry for Traffic, which had jurisdiction over us -- and the Reichstag. This was due to political problems which I do not wish to go into in detail but which can be attributed, to the traditional, historical development of air traffic. ihe Reichstag reduced the central subsidy by half, which brought the company into a financially very difficult situation, particularly since it had been deeply in debt before. In the course of this affair the commercial head retired, and the board of directors gave me the task to retain the technical supervision and also to take over financial affairs A (Continued) They insisted, even when I told them that I hadn't even been able to read or understand a balance sheet.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2140, "page_number": "1708", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "\"Please, will you be more brief?\" I mentioned this because this led me into a very comprehensive condition in this company which brought me even into closer contact with the work there.\nQWhat were your intentions in connection with the building up of the air traffic?\nAThe task was to create a reasonable participation on Germany's part in the developing of air traffic in Europe. Air traffic can always only be an international affair, but particularly in Europe where the distances are extremely short. It wasn't the purpose of the air traffic to connect small towns and small places, but to connect the centers, the large centers of economy. This collaboration in Europe, even after 1926, was probably an example. Very nearly in all other countries a large company with one ownership had developed, and these companies, amongst themselves, were closely inter-connected. We had a so-called international air traffic association to which we all belonged, and in which all joint questions were discussed twice really during meetings. The places for these meetings always changed so that other countries and their institutions too could be seen. During this collaboration, a particularly intimate collaboration had developed with the French, with the Air France, but also with all the other groups, the British Imperial Airways, and whatever the names were. I don't want to list them all. Everywhere close friendship had developed. There was competition. Everybody wanted to produce the best technical results, and our German roup was certainly on the same level with all the others in Europe. There was not any kind of competition financially speaking. We had equal tariffs for passengers, freight and post and mail , just as the national corporation always cleared all foreign aircraft on its own territory The French company flying to Berlin, for instance, did not need to have personnel in Berlin except a general representative who looked after their special interests. The chief representative of the French corporation beyond that was the German Lufthansa, and vice versa.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2141, "page_number": "1709", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "QWere you in touch with ex-European countries too?\nAYes.As I had already mentioned, traffic to SouthAmerica was one of the most important points. We had three main aims, South America, North America, and the Far East. The Far East would have been easiest. In Russia we had a joint company with the Russians. That is the so-called RussianGerman Aircraft Corporation. There we got as far as Moscow and St. Petersburg. The representative of the German Lufthansa in Russia on the Russian side was the Russian Government, where there were high government officials, commissars, for instance, who were together with us on the board of directors of this corporation. Before we discussed, before we arranged for further flights from Moscow to the East with the Russians, we had come to an arrangement with Chang Kai Chek's Chinese Government and there was a joint company in China called the Eurasia. In that Eurasia company under Chang Kai Chek's arrangement they had two-thirds , where as the German company had onethird of the shares of this company. It was using German aircraft, as well as German personnel, intermingled with Chinese. We also took care of the Chinese pilots and technicians.\nThen on the two large sea routes, the technical problems regarding South America were much easier, since distances going over the sea were much shorter, and at that time particularly the aircraft we had could cope with that. It was for that reason that this line was first started, together with the Pan-American Airways in America, with whom we also had close contact. I knew their director, Mr. Tripple, and there, too, we had joint airways, regarding joint routes \"from Germany to America and vice versa, to be handled by those two corporations and their joint service. This later service, however, never got beyond the stage of experimental flights after 1933.\nQHow did you handle, how did you regard those international collaborations politically speaking?\nAThe very close friendly collaboration, particularly with the French after four and a half years of war with them was a great event to me. I saw that people were not different from us, that their thoughts were just the same is ours, that from the point of view of the airplane from which we were accustomed to see the world, it was ridiculous when in Europe these small countries were destroying each other for thousands of years, all without any final solution ever being achieved at any time.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2142, "page_number": "1710", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "During cur conferences we often talked about this, and we were all convinced that in the era of the airplane this nonsense would now at last stop. We were nursing the hope that the countries to which we belonged would come to a similarly good personal relationship between their governments, such amity that has existed between those small modest air companies.\nQYou told me once that you considered your collaboration a sort of preparatory step for Pan-Europe.\nAYes, as early as 1925 we were trying to form a company called Europe Union Airways Company, which was in fact brought about, but the fees which the government forced stopped it from a final development. This was a corporation in which all those companies which were willing should have entered, such as, for instance, the Swiss, the Hungarians, the Ukrainians, the Latvians, the Swedes, the Norwegians and various others, the Polish too, and where they jointly were forming a company. I was told, although I understand it perfectly well, at the time that this was something quite new, since no international corporation at that time had been in existence. It was mentioned that it should be put on record with the League of Nations. But all these questions, in spite of the actual function, were never solved, but the thought, the idea remained alive amongst all these aircraft corporations, these airways corporations. Had this company come alive then a Pan-European continent would have existed, at least in the air.\nQWitness, the prosecution in its opening speech assumed that you had used the Lufthansa for the secret preparation for a new war.\nATo suppose that is erroneous. The Lufthansa had nothing whatever to do with military or beligerent questions. The difference between civil aircraft for traffic purposes and military aircraft, even during the First World War, was a very clear-cut difference. Certainly shortly afterwards as time went on and its output increased, the performances increased, these elements became more and more outstanding. A further point was that a military air force is a machine of large movements and high figures.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2143, "page_number": "1711", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "an air force like ours with everything that it needed for trainers and transports amounted to some forty or fifty thousand aircraft which it had to maintain. The German Lufthansa, during its peak period, had one hundred and fifty aircraft all told and just as many pilots, just as many wireless operators, and just as many technicians, or rather fewer aircraft mechanics because some of them were servicing two or three. I think these figures, apart from the technical questions by other experts, should be made clear and ought to be enough to prove that with such means and such machinery a military power or in fact anything military could not be started.\nMay I also draw your attention to the fact that at least as far as we in Germany were concerned, the military was also high above any civilian authority so that its work and its intentions would never have been entrusted to such a civilian authority. I knew all these gentlemen very well, because we in the Aero club met from time to time, but I also knew the intentions of the German Government of the time, that is before 1933; which was afraid of nothing more than that some prohibitive matter should be detected by the Allies, and military aircraft, of course, were prohibited.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2144, "page_number": "1712", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "QWitness, since it was your opinion that the first World War was lost in the military field too, did you think of it at the time, of beginning a new war?\nANo. I believe that all my statements which I have been able to make up to now show that I myself considered a war in Europe as being something mad, no matter who would win. None of the parties could gain anything, and the period following the first World War, with its extremely difficult economic situation in all European countries, even the rich countries, the England of those days, for instance, showed clearly that the war had destructive values only for everyone, quite apart from the moral and humane angle. So that I considered a war as completely unjustifiable. I only considered it justifiable if the basic rights of a nation were involved; that is to say, the freedom of the people and the utmost necessities of life.\nQVery well, witness. Now, witness, what personalities were you in touch with during those years?\nAFirst of all, I came into contact with the members of our board of directors. There were 64 persons, sometimes 66. Some of them were the outstanding economic leaders in Germany. For instance, from the shipping companies the Hapag Lloyd; then all the big banks had representatives, but there were also the Burgomasters, the Lord Mayors of big cities such as Cologne, Duesseldorf, Hamburg, Bremen and Munich, who were represented on this board. But because of the difficulties which the government had with the Reichstag in 1928 I also came into contact with some deputies in the Reichstag.\nThe leading parties had one each there who was dealing with the special sector of airways in Parliament, and it was those that we got in touch with or they got into touch with us. It was on this opportunity that I met Goering for the first time, who at that time was a deputy of the National Socialist Party and who was dealing with the question of air traffic, besides other important tasks in the Reichstag.\nQWhich leading personalities, Reichstag deputies from other large parties, did you meet on that occasion?", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2145, "page_number": "1713", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "AFor the Social Democrat Party there was the Wuerttemberg deputy Keil whom I can remember. Of the German Peoples Party there was Mr. Kraemer. There were two or three other gentlemen whose names I cannot at this moment recollect, since those three were in more frequent touch with us, whereas the others took part in these questions to a lesser degree.\nQDid you, with all these three men; that is to say, Goering, Keil and the third gentleman, Kraemer, have the same amount of contact or did you favor the National Socialist Party?\nAWe were only interested in being in touch with important people in the Reichstag to such an extent that this reverse, this setback which occurred in 1928 would not be repeated. At that time we, with our international ties, had been unable to do those ties justice. The subsidies were always only granted for one year, but our contracts had to be longer than that. It was economically out of the question to make investments and then only to have security for a period of one year.\nQThank you, that's enough. What was, at that time, your political attitude both from the point of view of foreign and internal policy?\nAFrom the point of view of foreign policy it was in the same sense as was our collaboration in these air traffic corporations. I had no other connections abroad at the time, except in air circles. In other words, I was interested in neutral shared collaboration with the emphasis on our joint life and our joint work.\nFrom the point of view of internal politics I did not belong to any party. I used to follow the press and the picture of the country as it was going was not particularly clear, at least not to me. I believe at that time there were more than thirty political parties, and each one of them would promise approximately the same as the other, but none of them was strong enough to assert itself. Governments were only being formed by means of compromises between various parties which, however, did not exactly love each other. These compromise parties and connections usually disintegrated rather rapidly, and really, one government used to follow the other without one of them having a chance to warm up properly.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2146, "page_number": "1714", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "I used to follow this from immediately after the end of the war, and I always thought that I did not have the gift of thinking politically because I did not understand all that. On one hand Germany was in flames at every corner; on tho other hand, as one used to say in Germany, there was a flight about the emperor's beard. I only experienced a few really great moments politically speaking, such as for instance, the signing of the Rapallo treaty which I considered the first ray of daylight politically in Germany, because, after all, Germany, considering its central position would either have to look towards the East or look towards the West, unless it was possible to look to both sides at the same time.\nFollowing that, a little later, I considered that Stresemann's policy showed a large scale promise, but I also saw how Stresemann, with all his work, was terribly impeded by all the other parties in Germany, whereas he, to my mind, was on the way which we were wanting.\nIt is for that reason that during ail the years when Stresemann was there, during all the elections which were taking place, I voted for the German Peoples Party, not so much because I knew anything very much about this particular party, but because I wanted to support Stresemann's personality. Here is one more thing I want to say, I envied Great Britain and the United States for having two or respectively three parties in their countries which seemed to me to guarantee the welfare of the country politically speaking in the best possible manner, but when you have 32 or 34 parties any such idea is out of tho question.\nQWitness, after the situation in Germany deteriorated more and more, what attitude did you adopt toward politics after that, and when did you cone into closer contact before 1933 with the NSDAP?\nAApart from frequent meetings with Goering in connection with which I must say that he never talked about politics with me, he spoke about technical questions and the questions of air traffic, and it was usually Goering who would talk, and he was an awfully good story teller, telling a lot of stories about the first World War and about his Richthofen squadron, and telling lots of stories about Sweden, which is the country his wife came from. He never theless never spoke about the politics of his party.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2147, "page_number": "1715", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "It might have been mentioned on some occasion but never in that sense that he was making a recruiting speech to me or that he would describe to me the advantages of his ideas and so on and so forth.\nOn two or possibly three occasions he brought me together with Hitler. On one occasion Goering had invited him, when he had also invited me, but it was only when I was there that I discovered it. On another occasion Goering and I together had had a meal at the Hotel Kaiserhof and suddenly Hitler turned up and sat down at our table. On those occasions Hitler talked almost exclusively only to me. I guess it was in 1930 that I met him for the first time, but I won't be absolutely certain about this date. Anyway, Hitler spoke about foreign political questions as well as internal politics, air traffic, technical questions, and I had the impression that he was pretty well informed about all those subjects. What was astonishing was his ability to adapt himself quickly to my sphere of work when I spoke about air traffic, and I spoke to him particularly about international collaboration as a basic point.\nDuring the last conference which took place before 1933 when he formed his government, it wasn't long before that by the way, he told me that as far as air traffic was concerned he would place at our disposal quite different facilities if he were in charge, and in fact, he quoted figures which appeared quite fantastic to me at the time, but which as an annual subsidy represented one-fifth of the monthly expenditure of the Luftwaffe, the German Air Force, during the war so that it is one-sixtieth part of the annual expenditure.\nIt was quite an astronomical figure for me at the time. I explained him that with such finance one could certainly carry out all ideas regarding rapid modernization of air traffic, using modern material very rapidly, and that the question of every type of development, particularly such as flying in bad weather could be tackled very quickly with such money.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2148, "page_number": "1716", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "Other personalities who played a part in the party I did not meet at that time. There may have been one or the other that I saw. Hitler did not come alone; he was accompanied by an adjutant; but of the better known people, such as Goebbels and Himmler -- I did not meet one of them before 1933.\nQ.Witness, before we come to the events after 1933, there is one question I want to put to you. Did you, before 1933, have any serious accident?\nA.Yes; during the war I had an air crash. I had been shot down, and on that occasion I suffered very serious injury to the head, after landing my aircraft since I had to land on bad ground. In 1932, I, myself, flying a JU-52, the first one in existence, participated in competitions in Switzerland, the so-called \"Flight Over the Alps.\" And, upon my return, when flying at an altitude of about two hundred meters, north of Munich near Schleissheim, I collided with a trainer aircraft which flew into my left engine coming from ahead. Both engines cracked up and penetrated the cabin and hit the pilot's seat, and I suffered a very serious head injury. The main artery was penetrated but there were various objects which had penetrated the skull, and, upon landing, incidentally, I had lost a wheel during the collision, something which I didn't know -- the undercarriage, of course, not being retractable, was fixed. We had to land in a corn field. and, on that occasion, I hit the dashboard with full force and suffered a very serious concussion of the brain at the time.\nQ.Did you know in 1927 of another serious accident?\nA.Yes; I think 1924 or 1927 -- yes, I think it was '27, that, when flying an aircraft in the Bohemian forests I had to land in the woods. We took down about a hundred trees but of course the impact was still very strong. But I don't think that that accident caused me any permanent injuries.\nQ.Now, then, when did you first concern yourself closely with the aims of the NSDAP?\nA.Let me add this. In 1932 -- I think it was in '32 -- there wore two elections.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2149, "page_number": "", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "As a result of them I voted for the NSDAP for the first time. But, first of all, let me say I knew just as little about that party as I knew about 1716a the German Peoples' Party.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2150, "page_number": "1717", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "Q.Why did you vote for the NSDAP at the time?\nA.Very simple; because the system of more than thirty parties appeared impossible to me and because I adopted the point of view that now one of the larger parties ought to be voted for so that at last there would be a majority in Germany capable of forming a government.\nQ.When did you concern yourself closely with the political aims?\nA.I never really concerned myself intimately with it. I read through the so-called Party Program which was attached to the membership book of party members. It was comparatively short. I cannot tell you the number of points contained therein and whatever it contained at the time is something which is as far as I was concerned I had no objections to. Approximately, its wording was the same as one heard from other parties -- at least I was told later.\nQ.Had you read Hitler's book, Mein Kampf, at the time?\nA.No.\nQ.Well, when did you make your first acquaintance with it?\nA.I started to read it after 1933 -- I think it was in i934 -but I never got past page twenty at the time. I would attribute this to my being over-burdened with work, of course. It was not so able that anyone who was tired would comprehend it.\nQ.Did you make yourself acquainted with the writings of Rosenberg?\nA.No, never.\nQ.Are you acquainted with Hitler's attitude towards these writings?\nA.Yes. Hitler, on one occasion -- possibly in '34 or '35 -when a party was going on in his house -- a big party; I think it was the General's Dinner or some such dinner of that sort which took place twice or once every year, something which had been taken over from Hindenberg -- it was on this party that he stated in a large circle of people that he, as far as Rosenberg's writings were concerned, hadn't read it.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2151, "page_number": "", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "That he started once but found it impossible be read. He said that five thousand pieces had been printed at the beginning but even years afterwards they had still been sitting in the bookshops 1717a and, apart from three, none had ever been sold.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2152, "page_number": "1718", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "But then, he said, somewhere, some bishop, had started fighting Rosenberg, and it was after that, that those five thousand books had been sold out after two days. I am only giving you a picture of what Hitler said at the time. At any rate, the bookshops now had it reprinted to the extent of fifty thousand. And now the church imposed some ban on this book-it may have been the Bishop of Fulda; it might have been quite a different one. But, anyway, fifty thousands were sold overnight; and now they had printed a few hundred thousand, and then the Pope had imposed his ban. And since that time they had been unable to print the book as quickly as they sold it. But, of course, I can't guarantee the truth of that story.\nQ.Witness, when did Goering give you a state position after 1933 for the first time and on what occasion?\nA.As early as 1932, during the summer, Goering told me that now a joint government was being formed with the German nationals, or even the German People's party, or who else was there, and that this could be expected for the subsequent day, and that he would now form an aviation ministry, and that he had chosen me as his State Secretary. I told him at the time, \"well, let's wait and see.\" And then, with some friends of mine, I talked about it, with a friend on the Board of Directors, and actually the decision we reached was that I should turn down the offer. In fact, Goering never brought the subject up again because the formation of that government was not realized. On the 28th of January, in the evening, some of my gentlemen friends were there; ladies were visiting me at my house, when quite suddenly, without being announced or being invited, Goering turned up. He asked me to come outside into the other room for a moment where I could be alone with him. And he explained to me, \"We have got there at last. During the following day the Government, together with German Nationals already formed. I am taking over the Air Ministry,and you will be my Secretary of State.\"", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2153, "page_number": "", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "I told him that he had said that six months ago; that in that time I had discussed the matter with others, and that, really, it was my opinion that I was not the suitable person for this; to begin with, I liked it very much with the Lufthansa, and I could not think of a better position for a life's work.\n1718 a And, secondly, I said I was the sort of nan who did not like to be connected with politics; and, after all, every State position was political.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2154, "page_number": "1719", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "After that, I suggested to him to choose the Materials Councillor at the head of the Aviation Department in the Ministry for Traffic, whose name was Ministerial Director Brandenburg who was an excellent wartime pilot from the first world war. But Goering turned him down, and said that he was out of the question for him.\nI suggested Admiral Laas who was already working the Reich's Union of the Aircraft Industry; but Goering did not want him either. When he continued to insist, I asked him for time to think it over, and told him that I could not decide on the spur of the moment. He told me, all right, and would I be good enough to visit him at the Hotel Kaiserhof on Monday morning, the thirtieth, and communicate to him my final decision? He added that I could rest assured that he would not tolerate a refusal of mine and would not accept it. I laughed and said that, \"That, after all, did depend on me, too.\" Still, that some evening, I had talked to my most intimate collaborator, Baron von Gablenz -- whom I have mentioned repeatedly -- and I also talked to a member of the Board of Directors of the Lufthansa, the president, Herr von Stauss, and a certain Dr. Weigelt who was at the head of a small working committee in our firm. Both gentlemen, incidentally being members of the board of directors of the Deutsche Bank, the German Bank. It was with these three that I went into consultation. Two of those gentlemen explained to me that in the interests of the German Lufthansa I would have to accept the offer. They said they could appreciate that I did not like the idea, but there was no other way since, otherwise Goering would take it out on the Lufthansa. One of these two directors stated that I ought not to go, in spite of this. We made an appointment to meet the following morning, Sunday, and called in several other gentlemen for consultation, and this did, in fact, take place. It was on that occasion that everyone, including the man who had contradicted the others the previous evening, had reached the conclusion that it was in the interests of the Lufthansa, too, that I should accept the position.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2155, "page_number": "1720", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "I should like to emphasize that my refusal had nothing whatever to do with any political aspect or any hostile feelings I might have nurtured as to Goering at the time. But that was merely a personal question regarding my own career, my life. I loved my work, and although I wasn't too old to reconvert my life, I could not imagine any details of any new position which could tempt me so much. External, outside honors of this type didn't mean anything to me.\nSo I myself decided that I would leave the matter to Hitler's final decision since I did not know whether Goering might not make a proposition on his own initiative. Thus, on Monday the 30th I went to the Hotel Kaiser Hof with Goering. It was approximately 11 or 12 o'clock. I visited Goering and was in a hurry. Together with him quite some time later -- the time I can't tell you exactly -- I went to Hitler. I think Hitler had just come back with his appointment from the Reich President.\nWhen he saw me, he told me right away: \"It's a good thing that you're here. Goering has already told me that you are going to be his state secretary.\" Whereupon, I told him, \"Mr. Hitler, that hasn't been decided. I've just come to discuss this matter with you.\" He then said, \"Look here, I've only known you for a short time, but you're a man who knows his business.\n\"We talked about it and came to the conclusion that we don't have a man in the Party who knows as much about aviation as you do. That's why we have chosen you. You've got to accept. This isn't a question of the Party calling you; it's a question of Germany. Germany wants you for that position.\" And so I accepted.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Dr. Bergold, will you have the witness explain what he means by saying that Hitler had just come back with his appointment?\nDR. BERGOLD:This means that he came back, having been nominated Reich Chancellor by the Reich President von Hindenburg.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Yes, all right.\nQ.Witness, did you have any financial advantages from the acceptance of that office?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2156, "page_number": "1721", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "A.To the contrary, I did not. The Lufthansa brought me an income of more than 50,000 marks per annum; and as secretary of state, even later as colonel and general, I had an income of approximately 21,000 marks. I think once it had been 24,000; but in the emergence of regulations, something came about leading to the deduction of about 3,000 marks. I can't tell you for certain. At any rate, I've never received my salary myself. I've left it to my office; and they gave me what I need and then sent to my family what my wife needed. So there was a question of dividing the salary in part; but this wasn't a question which came into it at the time. This did not come into the decision for me to accept the position or not.\nQ.Witness, did you at that time make any conditions to Hitler or Goering regarding the taking of that office?\nA.Yes. I made the condition that I would remain on the board of directors of the German Lufthansa in the future even if I became an employee of the Reich when I became secretary of state. In fact, I did that with a particular intention. I had hoped that I would not be granted this condition and that I could consequently say, \"Well, I'm awfully sorry but I can't come.\" But Hitler immediately complied with that condition, so subsequently in my honorary capacity, of course, I remained on the board of directors of the German Lufthansa.\nQ.Did you make a condition to Goering, too?\nA, Yes. I told Goering that there was a personal habit of Goering's which was the reason for me not to join them; but he had sworn to me that he was no longer indulging in that vice.\nQ.Witness, what was your position in the Third Reich in 1933?\nA.At that the, first of all, it wasn't called ministry. It was called the Reich Commissar's Office because normal measures for the formation of a ministry had to be considered both with the Reich President as well as the Reichstag. First of all, Goering was Reich Commissar and I was Deputy Reich Commissar for Aviation. I think it was in March that the Reich Ministry was formed, and at that moment I became state secretary.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2157, "page_number": "1722", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "Q.What were your tasks as secretary of state?\nA.In such a ministry the state secretary had two deputies for the minister; that is to say, since originally each ministry had only one state secretary, he had jurisdiction of everything as a Number 2. It is for that reason that he signed his letters \"I.V.\", \"In Vertretung\", or as deputy of the ministry, but others could only sign \"I.A.\", on behalf of or by order of the minister.\nNow, the question was which pert of the business would the minister deal with himself and which would be handled through the state secretary. Since Goering was simultaneously Minister for the Interior in Prussia and since it was this task that interested him and occupied him most, he could hardly ever be seen in our office. But particularly at a later stage he was at the head since he defined the aims of our work. I considered myself as his executive organ for the carrying out of such work. For the efforts during the initial period the organization was on civilian lines. It was only later when rearmament began that it was completely militarized; and the civilian apparatus then only existed in one of the departments, the department LD. Then all other sources were militarized.\nThere was a command department which later on called itself general staff; and there was a technical department which was then headed by a soldier, having previously been headed by a civilian. I've already mentioned the department for aviation. Then there was an administrative department which dealt with all questions of clothing, billeting, and food and such like; in other words, the budget, financial question. Then in addition to that there was a personnel department, which dealt with personnel questions. This was the organization, of course, after the militarization, such as developed gradually on the military side.\nQ.When did this occur, approximately?\nA.Rearmament began at the beginning of 1935, and it was then that the matter was developed in such a manner.\nQ.So that until then it had been civilian?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2158, "page_number": "1723", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "A.Yes, but on the other hand we did have a few officers who had retired, however, whom we had taken over and who were responsible for administrative questions for which we needed an expert whom we didn't have. This, incidentally, was later Field Marshal Kesselring, who was considered an administrative expert at the time he retired joined us.\nQ.When did you join the Party?\nA.In the Spring, I think; in May 1933 I put my name down.\nQ.For what reason?\nA.It was suggested to me that since I was carrying out state functions on a high level and since Goering was an important member of the Party I too should join the Party.\nQ.Did you go through the usual education for the Party?\nA.No. Pretty quickly and outside normal channels I was given my membership. I've never joined such an educational meeting or whatever they had of the Party.\nQ.When did you once again become a soldier?\nA.In September 1933. It was at that time that the Reich President promoted me colonel.\nQ.Why was this done? Was it done for the purpose of rearmament or why?\nA.In the aviational field the anti-aircraft artillery had already been handed over. This had become a part of the troops. Since I was the superior of the man who was the inspector in our ministry, the Field Marshal Von Hindenburg, who always informed himself very accurately about such questions and took care of soldierly conduct in such a way, ordered that this was not possible and that Goering and I would have to be given military rank. At that time Goering was going to be major general, but he didn't agree to that and so they gave him the rank of a commanding general right away. That is to say, he was made a three star general from the American point of view. I became a colonel. Since there wasn't yet an air force, we both were given army uniforms.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2159, "page_number": "1724", "date": "11 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-11", "text": "Q.Witness, this anti-aircraft organization which existed in Germany, was that permissible at the time or was it in violation of the Versailles Treaty?\nA.No, it was permissible. I think there were special agreements at Geneva which were extended to that extent. First of all, there was fortification and the aircraft artillery, but later on mobile and aircraft was also granted. I can't remember the details, you see, because this took place before my time.\nQ.So that you want to assert that the fact that you became a soldier had nothing to do with the rearmament activities within your position as secretary of state?\nA.No. Particularly as far as the anti-aircraft weapon was concerned, we had a peculiar picture. It appears that Hindenburg learned on some occasion. On the occasion of a journey by aircraft, when I was accompanied by the anti-aircraft inspector, he suddenly took him along. We wanted something quite different, but anyway he showed him such a fortification at the anti-aircraft battery and he asked me to take him around. I was to take the parade. I was in civilian clothes, wearing a gray hat. Now, from the German point of view, it is out of the question that I should appear in such raiment on such an occasion. I told the inspector that he could shoot me if he wanted to but I wouldn't do anything like that. So he in his turn communicated this fact to Blomberg, and Blomberg talked it over with Hindenburg. That's the way this happened.\nQ.Witness, after you became a soldier, did you remain a member of the Party?\nA.No. You couldn't when you were a soldier. Membership in the Party was in a suspended state, In other words, you were no longer an active member of the Party.\nTHE PRESIDENT:We shall stop at this point.\nTHE MARSHAL:This Tribunal will be in recess until 0930 hours tomorrow.\n(The Tribunal adjourned until 12 March 1947 at 0930 hours.)", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "Q.", "A.", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2160, "page_number": "1725", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America against Erhard Milch, defendant, sitting at Nuernberg, Germany, on 12 March 1947, 0930. Justice Toms presiding.\nTHE MARSHAL:All persons in the courtroom please take your seats.\nThe Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal No. II. Military Tribunal No. 2 is now in session. God save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal. There will be order in the court.\nBY DR. BERGOLD:\nQWitness, I shall continue the direct examination. Yesterday we stopped at the question whether after you had become again a soldier, you remained a member of the Nazi Party. We now slowly come to the main part, will you please explain to this Tribunal how it came about of the building up of the Luftwaffe and when this took place?\nAIn 1933 Hitler became Chancellor of the Reich. In Geneva at the League of Nations the disarmament conference took place. One of the rights of Germany existing in the Versailles Treaty decided that disarmament should be called for all countries. The conferences were taking place for several years so far as I recall. From all countries soldiers had been sent there, and it was not to be wondered at that they sawed off the branch that they were sitting on. I can recall that one of the prohibitions which, was announced there was the poison of the South American Indians, which was called Gurare. Hitler ordered his delegates into Geneva so far as I can remember in order to accelerate negotiations. He demanded either to have equal disarmament of all countries, or rearmament of Germany.", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2161, "page_number": "1726", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "He said on that occasion that unless a decision was reached in a short time, he himself would continue rearmament. He suggested increasing the German armed forces to 200,000 men and limiting them to that figure, and he equally renounced bombing warfare for all countries. No decision was reached.\nI believe that it was in the autumn of 1933 when Hitler announced that Germany would leave the League of Nations, would leave at least the Disarmament Conference, but simultaneously Germany left the League of Nations. I know that at that time Goering was very worried. He called us to him and described the situation not too optimistically. All I could reply was that up to that time no beginning of German rearmament in the air had been made, and that if the order to do so were to be given, it would take several months or years.\nNo order was given at the time. All that was ordered was an increase in the number of pilot training schools and an extension on industry. The orders which were now given to the industry concerned in particular the type of Junker 52, of which I said before that in 1932 the first type of aircraft of that sort reached the schools in that year. The Lufthansa was interested in that in order to increase its total number of aircraft with that very good model as quickly as possible.\nThis is how it happened that the Junkers firm was increased and extended. Heinkel was next. Heinkel at the time had usually foreign orders. Heinkel worked for several countries, and whey supplied small and medium size aircraft.\nIn 1935, in March, Hitler ordered officially that Germany should re-arm, and he claimed that Germany should have armed authority.\nQJust a minute, witness. Before you continue, I want to ask you again: Up to that point - that is in March 1935 - there was not even a secret rearmament was there?\nANo, you could not call that rearmament. I said that the schools had been extended. I also reminded you that the industries had been extended. Models of new German aircraft were in the factories for military purposes which had been built on orders from abroad.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2162, "page_number": "", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "QWill you please continue?\nAFrom the spring of 1935 - that is to say, March - the rearmament became official. The first which was done was a fighter group, in Boeweritz from the 1726 A Squadron Richthofen, which had been newly founded.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2163, "page_number": "1727", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "They were equipped with a fairly old model, and the undercarriage could not even be retracted. Modern engines were not at their disposal, or to put it better, there was no military engine at all.\nThe road of rearmament was a slow one. In the coming years relatively little material was at our disposal. New aircraft had to be built, and perhaps there might have been preparations by comparing foreign models with them. Now, a definite number of fighter aircraft and bombers and reconnaissance aircraft were built.\nI do not wish to go into the technical details of these types, for I don't think such questions are relevant here, but only in, perhaps, 1937 or 1938 - I do not recall the exact year - it was in 1937 - we had our first modern fighter aircraft, and a little later a medium size bomber aircraft which was roughly on the same technical level as Britain, France, and so on. The reconnaissance aircraft were not so interesting, but figures were very small, nor was there a real Luftwaffe in existence then.\nThe question how strong and how quickly rearmament should be effected was highly debatable within the Luftwaffe. Goering, I suppose because of his knowledge of Hitler's wishes, demanded great speed. My chiefs of departments, above all the chief of the leading office, the Fuehrungsamt, the Chief of Personnel, and I myself, opposed this, not because we did not wish to re-arm but because we wanted to have the rearmament effected in what we regarded as a reasonable and possible frame.\nOf course, you could get large numbers of recruits or young pilots, and you could train them within one to two years as soldiers and pilots, but you could not in two years or five years or even in ten years create all the superior officers who had sufficient experience necessary to conduct a large branch of an armed force. That point was hotly debated in the later course of the peace years. On the one hand there were Hitler and Goering, and on the other hand were my experts and I. Our contradictions were not taken notice of as a principle.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2164, "page_number": "", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "This led me to make several attempts to be allowed to resign.\nQWe shall come to that later, witness. Witness, please tell the Court briefly when the air armament was concluded, at least in Goering's opinion.\n1727A We have heard your opinion.", "speakers": [ "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2165, "page_number": "1728", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "ANo final stage can ever be described, but when new squadrons had been installed - and we took the view that you can use them after a certain time, after a year or a year and a half - then the order was given to march. Well, anyway, no conclusion of the armament program was really reached; even in 1939, only a fraction of that was reached and effected which had been wished for from above, but with our best will, we could not have achieved more than we did.\nQIt can be alleged, it can be opposed to your view, that in 1939 the German Luftwaffe, after the successes it had was superior to the air forces of the neighboring countries. These countries, in your opinion, had rearmed. Is it possible then to say that Germany had also rearmed sufficiently?\nAThe high level of armament as it was requested - I did not understand that at all, and therefore I opposed this, not only for the reasons which I explained before - that sufficient numbers of leaders should be trained - but there were other reasons as well. Perhaps I can go into that later on, but the air forces of the other countries were in 1939 perhaps - not in all countries, of course - were sufficiently strong. Nevertheless - and that I shall explain later on I considered the strength of the British Air Force, for instance, to be superior to ours, although I may not have shown proof of that in the first months of the war.\nIn France there was a crisis in production and development of the factories. They had been taken over by the state, and in the transition period they were exposed to the negative sides of the state taking over industry which they had not overcome.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2166, "page_number": "1729", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "A (continuing): The Polish air force was to a large extent dependent on the French air force and was affected by the crisis of French industry automatically.\nQWitness, when in 1937 and '38 the first drives of Hitler against the foreign countries took place, at that time was the Luftwaffe already sufficiently armed in order to be able to keep up a serious conflict?\nANo, it was not. I explained that on frequent occasions, whenever I could see Goering, for instance, or Hitler, but Hitler said the war effort would be a military conflict. These things were purely political disputes.\nQWitness, was this rearmament of the Luftwaffe your task? Did your task of state secretary change, and in what manner did that change, if that did?\nAState secretary in theAir Ministry was a purely formal appointment, as it was a ministry in contrast to army and navy. I may perhaps add it was a purely political matter when a cabinet was formed in 1933. That was the method how Hitler obtained a third member of his party, made a third member of his party a third member of the cabinet. Therefore, for the reason there was a minister, there had to be a state secretary. The functions of a state secretary in a civilian ministry I fulfilled only up to a point, and that only as long as 1937. My military position was always in the foreground as Goering did not concern himself with the troops at that time. It was my task, therefore, to inspect the troops, and that led to my being ordered to become an inspector general, and that position was my main sphere of task up to 1941, up to the end of 1941.\nQWitness, in this position as inspector general, you had to carry out the reconstruction of the Luftwaffe?\nANo, you could not say that.As inspector general I had to inspect the troops. I was not the commander cf the troops. I was an independent official, who, on behalf of the Commander in Chief Goering, saw to it that the various units -- checked up on the fact that the various units were equipped with material, their billets, their food, and all such matters, that all these things were in order.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2167, "page_number": "1730", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "As state secretary, as it was a civilian appointment, I was only concerned with civil aviation, the so-called civilian air rights or air laws. These were the various permissions which you gave other nations to fly over your territory, and things like that. In the beginning weather forecasts were under that office, and that later on became also a military function. The state secretary, unlike other ministries, in that position he was not concerned with the budget. The most influential man for the budget was the Chief of the General Staff who from 1937 was no longer with me or under me, and whose requests, as long as they had been passed by Goering, decided how big the budget would be automatically.\nQ.Witness, who then would decide on the establishment of the types of plans, of the courses, who would carry out this plan, and under whose authority were these plans?\nA.Perhaps one should make here a difference between to carry out and to plan. The one is the planning office, that is to say, that office which creates the plans. That was the general staff. The approving position was Goering. The actual carrying out was in the hands of the various offices. Among others I, myself, was concerned with it. For instance, I was always in charge of administration. At that time that was the piece moving, the barracks and airfields, at that time food, clothes, and all the other things concerned with that administration. I was also always in charge of the training of the troops, of the pilots, etc., order in carrying out of these tasks concerned which was planned by the General Staff, all overseen by C. in C. Goering. All that was in my hands.\nThe Chief of Personnel was independent of me from 1937 onwards, was in charge of personnel lists. He decided how many officers there should be, what sort of training they should be given, and what positions they should take up, and in the higher positions Goering himself had to give his approval. From 1937 onwards the technical side had been removed from my command and was organized under a general Luftzeugmeister.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2168, "page_number": "1731", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "This G.L. was now in charge of the technical rearmament, again in accordance with the planning of the General Staff. I think that roughly is the answer to your question.\nQ.Yes, that is sufficient. Witness, is it correct to say that in your capacity as inspector general you had to make trips abroad too, that is, you had to see to the care of the comradely relationship of the air forces of other countries?\nA.Yes. I forgot to answer one point in your last question. You asked who was in charge of the troops. May I just repeat and make up for that? The troops were under the fleets, under the air fleets, under a Luftgau. When the organization was completed four air fleets were in existence, and roughly, according to the army, districts of the army. There was one Luftgau for each territory of the Luftwaffe. These commanders in chief of the Luftgau were the commanders of the troops and were immediately under C. in C. Goering.\nNow, I come to your question of the visits. Perhaps I can look up a note to get hold of the dates. The visits which I made were only, some of them, made in my capacity as inspector general. Some of them were made for purely personal reasons, relations with people. For instance, the first visit which I made at the request of Van Zeeling, the Belgian Prime Minister, that must have been about 1936. I visit Belgium. The ambassador for Belgium in Berlin, Count Kerkhove, was a personal friend of mine. One day he asked me to go to Belgium with him; the Prime Minister VanZeeland would like to see me. I was very astonished at this idea and I asked him what the matter was. I then told him that I had to have the permission of my superior officers. I received it. This was an entirely private journey. The purpose of the trip, as I realized in Belgium, was that Van Zeeland wished to come to terms with Germany, not only formally but fullheartedly. Belgium, since the First World War, had a treaty with France and was under an obligation to come to France's aid militarily by agreement with France. Van Zeeland wished to renounce that treaty, and he wished to have the same terms between Belgium and France as between Belgium and Germany.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2169, "page_number": "1732", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "Belgium was also prepared in economic matters, which was a very urgent point for Germany at the time, to make concessions, far-reaching concessions. The visit started with a brief call on the king, who did not refer to the purpose of the visit. This was purely a courtesy call, but this visit gave support to my trip. I saw that the prime minister acted in accordance with his king. The plan as such, although I emphasized it several times that I am not a politician, that it was not my intention to interfere in foreign office matters, but here Von Neurath entirely agreed with my visit. He had not the bureaucratic mind. The plan impressed me. Rather, I saw the possibility to create friendly relations between Germany and Belgium, and via Belgium to France, an later on via France to England itself.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2170, "page_number": "1733", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "I was convinced that the ever-privileged policy of balance of power no longer applied since the first World War. The powers in Europe had been dislodged too much and joint friendship between France and Britain was definitely a British interest, in that sense.\nWhen I returned I reported orally to Herr von Neurath who entirely agreed with that point of view. I also reported to Field Marshal von Blomberg, who, apart from Goering, was my military superior. He took the same line. I reported to Hitler and Goering. Both received my report but did not express their own opinion. To my question whether and what I could tell the Belgian Ambassador I was told that would have to be done through other channels, not through me. My orders had come to an end by giving this report. This was my first visit and that was entirely unofficial.\nThen I went to Belgium in May 1937. At that time, as a Luftwaffe man officially I was received by the C in C of the Belgian Air Force, General Duvivier; also by the Minister of War and other officials. That was a very friendly visit which also led to very good personal relations between ourselves and their pilots.\nI was particularly interested in Belgium because in the first World War Germany had marched through Belgium, had violated Belgian neutrality, and had to make up for this now. I believed that the views as expressed by Belgium an both occasions were aimed at finally burying the hatchet. I assumed that there was a direct connection between my Belgian visit and a visit by the French Ambassador Poncet who came to call on me in my office and extended an invitation by the French Government on the occasion of the International Exhibition. That visit took place from 4 to 9 October 1937 in Paris with the full approval of Goering and Hitler. The visit was most impressive since I believe since 1867 it was the first time that a German officer could pay an official friendly visit to France. The French told me with the greatest satisfaction that was the first the French Company of Honor had presented its arms since in 1867 the Prussian Crown Prince had visited Paris.\nThe French made great efforts to make the visit a success and I must say they succeeded all along the line. The main point was joint military inspections. Very cordial words were exchanged with the generals of the French Air Force.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2171, "page_number": "1734", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "I was accompanied by Udet and Count Kerkhove who also had very good relations with France from other times. The central point perhaps of the visit and its real purpose occurred after a lunch given by Pierre Cot, the Minister of Aviation. On my other side the Foreign Minister was sitting, and also the Minister of the Navy was there. After lunch the three French Ministers, Wilmer, the C in C of the French Air Force, Udet and myself remained in a special room and the French Foreign Minister asked me to take home with me some propositions made by his office.\nI should add our German Ambassador in France was also there, also in the smaller circle. When I said that I didn't want to interfere in his business he himself did not take any notice of it. He said that the most important thing was to report to Hitler on my impressions. He himself could not approach Hitler. The Ambassador was then Count Welczek. I was extremely surprised; I had no idea. I couldn't imagine that the head of State should not see his own ambassador. On that basis I said I would only act as a postman, and as such would transmit what I would be told now. I would give my very best own will.\nThe contents of the conversation were; to have a far-reaching agreement between the two countries, main purpose being to establish a really permanent and lasting peace between the two countries. I could take over this assignment with the best conscience in the world. After all, I said yesterday what I thought of military events in Europe in the last thousand years. My impression was that the Foreign Minister was very serious in this business, not did I have any suspicions that this might be a political trap and the Air Minister, who was always described as Communist in Germany, I liked Cot very much indeed, and our conversations were very intimate and very frank.\nThe French Foreign Minister at that time was called Delboss. The farewell on the Le Bourget Airfield led to fraternization between all of us and between ourselves and five or six of the highest French Generals. I must not forget that one of the oldest French Generals, General Keller, expressed with tears in his eyes he was now convinced that the thousand years war between France and Germany was now a matter of the past. We also were deeply moved.\nOn 9 October I flew from Paris to Berchtesgaden and reported to Hitler at once. He ordered me to report to him as soon as I had returned. I may perhaps say quite generally I could only see Hitler if Goering gave me permission or ordered me to do so, or of course, if Hitler himself ordered me to come and see him.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2172, "page_number": "1735", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "I myself could not go and see him as I was merely a subordinate.\nIn the presence of Udet I gave a report to Hitler lasting over two hours on the evening of the 9th of October, when my impression was still very fresh. Hitler listened very attentively, asked a number of detailed questions. I could tell him all about the various details which we saw and heard, not so much the military ones, but the political details. I could never talk enough about these things. After all, it was a fairly long conversation with the head of State. I recommended all these things very warmly and I asked him to take this extended hand and he would represent the greatest glory if he would succeed in coming to a lasting agreement with France which would be based on a very far-reaching economic community between the two countries.\nI compared this with the time of the German Customs League prior to 1870 when the German states were linked together only through this Customs League. I recalled to his memory, that both countries, France and Germany, had been a unit and a community for centuries at one time, and what was a strength at that time would today merely mean a normal state. I want to express in particular that nobody pleaded that the two countries should be politically linked or together but political collaboration was a necessity.\nOn 11 October, two days later, the Italian Ambassador called on me -\nQJust a minute. I have to ask another question. Is it correct that during this conversation you also offered to go as a special envoy to France and to complete this task?\nAOh, yes. I told him that Count Welczek should be called to Hitler in order to give a report. Hitler said no, that is not necessary. I then said that he must have somebody if he wished to pursue this matter, who enjoyed his confidence and also the confidence of the government to which he was sent. I told him that I was prepared at all times to serve under Welczek as a special envoy only for that one task.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2173, "page_number": "", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "I explained to him that I regarded Welczek as a man who enjoyed the confidence of the French Government, and that it would be a pity if Hitler would not see that man more frequently.\nQWitness, did Hitler take a position on this question or did he keep silent 1735 A again as he did before?", "speakers": [ "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2174, "page_number": "1736", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "A.Apart from putting questions to me he didn't say anything decisive at all. After all, I was not a foreign office official, and I could hardly expect him to do so. Perhaps later on I can describe what I did as far as Neurath is concerned.", "speakers": [ "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2175, "page_number": "1737", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "QBut before that I would ask you one more question. In Belgium and in France were you told why you or all persons were approached by these foreign countries and had the confidence of these countries?\nAThe Belgians were explicit on that point. When I told Count Welczek that, after all, the Foreign Office was concerned here; that it would not serve any useful purpose, he replied, \"That will not be read higher up. If you are coming as a soldier to Hitler, he will listen to you, for, after all, soldiers are your trump cards at the moment. Also we have confidence in you, confidence that you will at least be able to see Hitler; and he also has the confidence that you personally will do your best in this respect.\"\nQWitness, at that time did others also approach you, other diplomatic representatives, and lend you their confidence?\nAYes.\nQDid you have the confidence of Mr. Messerschmidt?\nAOh, yes, Mr. Messerschmidt; but that was before all this. I think that really took place in 1933, '34 or perhaps in '35. He visited me three times. When he was the Consul General of the United States he had some difficulties with some American subsidiary companies in Germany. One was Standard Oil, as far as I recall. I asked him why he wanted to see me because this was not my business. Then he said that he would have full confidence that I would look after his interests. He had been told by other diplomatic representatives that I was able to help him.\nQAll right. Now witness, we come to the steps you took after your report to Hitler, the steps you took later on. I ask you to tell about that briefly.\nAPerhaps I'll do that. It was after my visit to England.\nQVery well, go ahead.\nAOn 11 October, 1937, the ItalianAmbassador came to me. That was Prof. Attolico. He told me that the Italians had got very excited at my Paris visit. It was believed that I had come to arrangements there which were in contradiction to German-Italian agreements. I calmed him down at once without giving him too many details; but he asked me to pay a brief visit to Italy 1737A before going to England.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2177, "page_number": "1738", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "We had been asked to go there, to England, on the 17th of October. An air force exhibition in Milan was the occasion; and I was asked to open that exhibition on the 12th of May the following day. That, of course, was headlined by the Italian papers. Attolico came again and saw me after this and expressed his gratitude. He said that Delboss had put a trap in front of me. On the 17 October was the visit to England.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The witness gives the date the 12th of May. Is that what he meant for the exposition in Milan?\nA 12 October.\nTHE PRESIDENT:What year?\nAIt was all in October, 1937. I went from France, Italy and now to England. The visit had been arranged by the Royal Air Force as a reply visit paid by the Regal Air Force to us in January, 1937. At that time figures were exchanged between us on planned armaments, that is to say, the figures concerning bombers, fighters, and so forth, by agreement with Goering and Hitler. Here again the intention existed to know exactly what the other was doing. The other point was the intention to come to terms in all these questions.\nThe visit to England lasted until October 25. England had quite a lot to show. The Air Force was very well organized and had first-rate personnel. The visits were very cordial. Political conversations of an official nature were not held; but unofficially there we spent an evening in a club, in a very small circle of ten people, perhaps less than ten. Lord Swindon, who was then Minister of Aviation, took part, as well as the leader of the opposition, Mr. Churchill, and Lord Emmer, Secretary of State for India, and from the British Air Force Lord Trenshard.\nWe had brought General Stumpf and of course General Udet. This was more in the nature of a personal contact; and political questions weren't touched upon. The other hosts had told me before, \"Today you meet your first and second best enemy. Don't be confused by this; but if there is an attack, hit back.\" That is what happened, but it was a very jolly evening.", "speakers": [ "A", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2178, "page_number": "", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "Before we took off again, that is to say, on the 24th of October, Mr. Eden, the Foreign Secretary, rang me up. He said that he had been busy all the 1738A time before, but could I see him now.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2179, "page_number": "1739", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "I said that I'd be delighted but that a program had been arranged for us by the RAF to visit an airfield tomorrow before returning. I asked that if the program could be changed, would he please contact the RAF. He told me that perhaps that would be a bit too complicated and asked if perhaps I could see him later on. I could be with him in two hours and thirty minutes; and that was how long my aircraft took from Berlin to London at that time. Unfortunately I never saw Mr. Eden.\nI reported about that trip to England on the 2nd of November. The report took over two hours. Hitler was much more accessible than when I talked to him about France. I reported particularly my talk with Mr. Churchill and drew his attention to the seriousness which was expressed. Hitler immediately interrupted me. He said verbally, \"Please do not worry at all; never in my life will I do anything against Britain. The basis of my whole policy is collaboration with Britain.\" These words calmed me considerably. I immediately explained to him once more that the way to come to terms with England would be by Brussels and Paris; and I explained why.\nNuerath I saw on 11 October on the trip to France; and on the 28th of October I reported to him on my trip to England in great detail. All I could tell him at the time was what Hitler had said or had failed to say about France. Neurath again was very friendly and thanked me for having worked for him in this sense. I was in agreement with him that without any further invitations by him or Hitler I must not take any further steps, which, of course, I said to him.\nThen on 1st November 1937 I went and saw Field Marshal von Blomberg who at that time was C and C of the Armed Forces, that is to say, Goering's military superior. I reported to him. Blomberg in all things agreed with me entirely as did Neurath. Goering at that time did not have enough time to see me. I asked on several occasions to be allowed to report to him on these very important matters; but this did not happen because he simply declined.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2180, "page_number": "", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "QWitness, I think we can leave this field now. Will you only explain briefly to the Tribunal whether you have received foreign delegations and of 1739 A which nations and what happened at those occasions?", "speakers": [ "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2181, "page_number": "1740", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "A.I said before that the British had seen us in January 1937. After that I had perhaps five or six visits from Englishmen. The French paid a return visit in 1938. On that occasion again we returned the very cordial welcome which the French had given to us. We showed the French our troops and factories. Yesterday reference was made by the witness Vorwald to this, saying that we only showed what the troops had at their disposal at the time and what expressly had been permitted to be shown by Goering. One request had been made by the department for the General Staff. I know that somebody Alleged that Hitler at the end of the war should have said I had shown secret methods to foreign visitors and damaged Germany thereby. That is a slanderous statement.", "speakers": [ "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2182, "page_number": "1741", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "It was alleged that I had shown radar instruments, and at that time we didn't have any radar at all.\nWe were visited by representatives of all sorts of European countries: Italians, Yugoslavs, Brazilians, Poles, and so forth. I do not wish to give details here, but with Sweden, above all, we have always had very friendly relations.\nQ.Witness, did you have any doubts at all so far as fetching facts and informations were concerned?\nA.Not in the slightest. Above all, the British had allowed us to see perhaps their most intimate business, the so-called shadow factories, which was definitely a preparatory measure for mobilization. Industry which did not work for aviation in peacetime was already switched over to a military state in peace-time as a temporary measure, and when we were shown around there it was in full swing.\nWe did not show anything more secret, but we did show things which were of interest to a foreign visitor, because, after all, we could hardly show all our visitors all our Junker 52's, or an old BMW -6 engine of an antediluvian nature. I was convinced that mutual frankness would create confidence, and that confidence would be the basis for a personal approach and to create lasting peace.\nQ.Very well.\nWitness, you told us that Goering did not receive you. I ask you, in this connection, to explain your relations with Goering, and from the very beginning. From the beginning, were your relations with Goering very good and did you trust each other, or were there already differences from the very beginning?\nA.At the beginning our relations were entirely normal, and Goering gave me his confidence. I made every effort to justify this. We had our first argument when we discussed the speed and the extent of rearmament, and we had two different opinions.\nGoering, in about 1935 or 1936, had cultivated the habit of not standing contradiction and never allowing you to finish your sentence.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2183, "page_number": "", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "1741(a) That I would never stand for.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2184, "page_number": "1742", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "I told him that I was not a corporal, that my position was a high one, and that I had to express my opinions. It was bad enough if he didn't take any notice of my opinions, but that was his good right. However, he had to listen to me. It was very difficult to see him. Sometimes it took me seven months to have one conversation with him in that period, although he sometimes gave me orders for one of his A de C's. I would have to say quite a lot about this, but I could hardly argue with the A de C about these things.\nI believe sometimes I took a rather stiff attitude, and certainly there were people who didn't like my manner.\nGoering had been led to the conviction that I was after his own job, as he himself outwardly did not concern himself with the Luftwaffe. That was also used by enemies which Goering had in the Party, and he had quite a lot. These enemies would say publicly that Goering knew nothing about the Luftwaffe and Goering reproached me for that. I assured him that was untrue, and I supplied proof. But then he decided, in 1937 -- in the summer of 1937 -- to assume in reality, in every detail, the leadership of the Luftwaffe. He had already had the right to give large orders, and on top of that he decided to divide the whole organization into four parts. I told him that could only be justified if he himself would sit in the Ministry and do some work. He said he would do so. \"Well, all right,\" I said, but nevertheless I asked him as to my position in the subdivisions, my position having been number two, and now it became number three or four. The Chief of General Staff had to ask the man responsible for planning, who transmitted requests to all the other departments, and he had to be number two. That is to say, the next man under the C in C.\nHe asked me whether I wished to become Chief of General Staff. No, that was not my intention, I told him, but if I had to remain, I would prefer being Chief of General Staff than to become dependent upon my former subordinates.\nGoering declined this, and I asked him to let me go. After all, I was still with the Hansa in the Board of Directors, and I would be very glad to go back there.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2185, "page_number": "1743", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "He said that position was far too small for me. I told him, \"No, that position is just the right size for me, it is almost a suit tailored for me.\" He thought that was out of the question.\nWhen he thereupon gave up the correct manners which I always expected from him and there was quite a terrific argument between us, I really meant to resign, and I by no means meant this as an empty threat. He told me finally that according to a Fuehrer order no officer, no official, no civil servant, had the right to resign.\n\"If one of us has to go, the people above us will tell us in good time.\" I told him that I could see a method, are a way, to relieve my position. He said, \"If you report sick, that is no good at all, I shall immediately say you are quite well.\" I told him what I thought of, what I had in mind, and thereupon he gave in and brought the conversation to an end by expressing groat confidence in me. However, that meant putting things off, putting difficulties off, which reared their heads again and again.\nIt was quite obvious that my elimination had been effected. Very frequently I was not asked to attend important conferences, and later I was only told by hearsay what had boon discussed. What was even worse, my rears for a unified leadership as far as the carrying out of the task was concerned -- I make a distinction between leading and carrying out things. That unification no longer existed. The 4 parts of the General Staff, State Secretary, General Inspectorate, personnel Office, and GL -- from that time on they lead an existence of their own, and with the many tasks they had and everything else, they could no longer expect sufficient collaboration. Attempts were always made; we had the best will in the world, but what was lacking was the possibility to give orders in that sense.\nQ.Will you be a bit more brief, please?\nA.That has brought me to the end, really. The days in the war come later.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2186, "page_number": "", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "1743(a)", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2187, "page_number": "1744", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "THE PRESIDENT:This is a good time for recess.\n(A recess was taken).", "speakers": [ "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2188, "page_number": "1745", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "THE MARSHALL:Tribunal No. 2 is again in session.\nBY DR. BERGOLD:\nQ.Witness, you have just described your relationship to Goering. Will you explain to the Court how your relationship to Hitler was during those years, how often you have met him, at which opportunities, and what impression you gained from him.\nA.During those years, except at official occasions, that is to say when he called high military leaders to him, or when he invited them for dinner twice or three times a year, we only met comparatively seldom. I have no records of these occasions, but I should think that I spoke to him about five or six times a your and I reported to him, but always upon his order. At that time he was able to listen very well. On the whole, he was a completely different person in those years than later on in the war. he was amiable and friendly to all people, always considerate. He accepted suggestions. I cannot recall that during all the years of peace he ever expressed unfriendly feelings t ward myself r any of the other gentlemen who accompanied me at the time of reporting to him. I gained the impression that it was even possible to influence him because he was quite accessible to good reasons. On the other hand, I observed at times during these years that many of those who were closest to him did not tell him openly what they thought. Sometimes I was warned, not to express my opinion so clearly, but I never suffered any reaction from Hitler. True, he did not always agree to proposals because he may have been equally accessible to arguments presented from others, who tried to prove the opposite of my opinion. At that time he frequently moved around right amongst the masses by whom he was adored---indeed, worshiped. He held a strong position within the German nation, such as I have never seen held by any other individual in Germany. He was particularly fond of children, and all his measures for public welfare for instance, for the winter relief which netted several hundred million marks every year, were his own creation.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "THE MARSHALL" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2189, "page_number": "", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "As Germany in 1933 was in great economic need, this relief came at the right time for many thousands and hundreds of thousands.\n1745(a) On every occasion, he emphasized the social aspect, and what I had liked about him, already before 1933, was a sound synthesis between national interests and social interests.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2190, "page_number": "1746", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "For, after all, our old Reich under the Kaiser had failed because a combination of this kind did not exist as it should. The slogans \"National and Social\" were always right before, waiting for somebody to pick them up, and. the Weimar parties had failed to do that and therefore failed altogether. And now, that the people in its desperation did not see any other way out, it rallied around Hitler, and the measures he took after 1933 were successful. We had eight million unemployed in 1933, and that figure increased from week to week. In the Lufthansa, I myself registered the dismissal of, altogether, one thousand workers before 1933, I went there myself, and in our workshops where we carried out our repairs I had to dismiss 500 out of a thousand workers, all of whom could not find other jobs; and I have to say that this was one of the most difficult tasks which I ever had to perform. I did not merely want to publish it on the blackboard outside the plant, but I wanted to face the people when I told them. I have talked to them, and about what would become of them, and it w s hopeless. Contrary to our custom, on the part of the Lufthansa, we paid these people's salaries for many months, though we had no funds at our disposal at that time; but I could borrow it from the banks so as to make at least a transitional period possible for these people. Unemployment relief was not sufficient for the subsistence of these people. It was only slow starvation for them, and I was deeply impressed realizing what it meant to be unemployed. That, however was done away with in a few months in 1933. I can say I considered this a miracle. The people recovered. When I visited the Ruhr area in 1933, I could see workers' children in the streets showing signs of starvation. In 1934, on some occasion, I was again in the Ruhr. area. Goering delivered a public address Curt No. 2 there, and I had to join him bee use I also wanted to visit industrial plants.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2191, "page_number": "", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "These same children, and. grown-ups, were completely changed. Their cheeks were full and rosy. They had regained their color and. laughed again. I consider this success which Hitler achieved by his system at that 1746(a) Time one of tho greatest achievements which could ever be attained; and it was really no wonder that all of us sincerely believed in this man with all of cur hearts, and that we considered anybody a fool had ho told us at that time that he would lead us into a world war and would not stop until Germany was completely destroyed.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2192, "page_number": "1747", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "We would have attacked anybody who would have told us that Hitler at any time had ordered and caused cruelties, tortures and murder in concentration camps. We would have considered this the worst propaganda of oar worst enemies, but it was not only myself who thought that way. All of us thought that way, also those amongst us who were tho many little busybodies in the Party, the propagandists, etc. We called them the 120% believers, even though we brushed those people off and would not tolerate that they influence us in our sphere. That was Hitler in those years, I would say up about 1937-1938, or even until 1938.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2193, "page_number": "1748", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "Q. I shall refer to that later on. Until '37 or '38 did you meet other leaders of the Party? And did you take part in the internal life of the party.\nA.No; I had nothing to do with the Party in itself. Naturally, for instance, at these dinners with Hitler, I always met part of the higher authorities of the Party who were excellent people -- besides the others which I just described. But there was no close connection between us; the soldiers kept to themselves.\nQ.Which impression, witness, did you gain from the high Party leaders; Goering, Ley, and so on; -- what was their attitude towards Hitler?\nA.I gained the impression that they considered him a god who was beyond human criticism, and therefore, they could not contradict him; and every idea of his had to be considered as coming from God. It was a sort of dependence which many of them had to him and the behavior, of course, differed with the various personalities. There wore some who gave hints of their opinions first but then they became silent when they saw that Hitler did not agree with them. Others made previous inquiries through their adjutants as to the wishes of Hitler, and then suggested it to Hitler, himself, and others who magnified all of Hitler's wishes in proportion of one to a hundred thousand.\nIn the first years, Hitler had a sound feeling for these flatteries, and I gained the impression that he did not listen to them; but internally he actually was amused about these people, in contrast with later on.\nQ.Which attitude was there between Goering and Hitler? We are particularly interested in it here.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2194, "page_number": "", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "A.That changed. It only grow into a closer relationship. Perhaps in 1931 or '32. But I know that from other people who were more closely connected with Goering. Then, in '34 or '35 -- about that time -- and in '36, it had weakened, and in '37 it became 1748a stronger again.", "speakers": [ "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2195, "page_number": "", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "And that was going on until the time of the war. And from 1943 onwards, after the fall of Stalingrad, it noticeably weakened month by month.\nQ.What was Goering's attitude toward Hitler?\nA.He was very soft towards him. He often told me, \"Milch, leave that alone. Why do you oppose him? Hitler has the right ideas about this, whether he knows it or not. It is God who gives him these ideas.\"\n1748(b) I did not want to have that true and Goering said that I was not one of Hitler's friends as he, himself, was; which I confirmed.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2196, "page_number": "1749", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "Q.Witness, did you meet Hindenburg?\nA.Yes; often....\nQ.What impression, and what connections did you have towards him?\nA.I think the greatest disaster for Germany was that the old Field Marshal -- we always called him \"The Old Man\" - died so early. Hitler had real respect for him, and he was not the man who could be easily persuaded; he could not be cheated either. In spite of his age, he had very clear insight in every way, and I know that he criticized Hitler very often -- as he was very rough with him -- as soon as the old Hindenburg was informed of transgressions of Party members. I know a case there were difficulties with some party members and clericals in Fast Germany. Hindenburg called Hitler and it was only a few minutes, when some counter-measures were taken by Hitler. The old gentleman took great interest in everything -- above all for all questions concerning soldiers, as we had intentions as soon as we could to arm our Air Force, to consider the Luftwaffe as a third part of the Armed Forces -- that is, not under the direction of the Army and the Navy. We wanted to follow the example of England, the old gentleman had this explained by me...he was not interested in questions concerning flying and technical matters. He never listened to them very much and he never had a telephone in his hand. He said, \"I don't want this things I don't like this modern stuff.\"\nI asked him when I was entrusted, to explain to him how much time he would give me. And he asked, \"What did it actually mean -- independent air force? What is the purpose of it,\" he said to me. \"I give you just fifteen minutes.\"\n\"I don't need such a long time,\" I said. \"I will cover everything in seven minutes\", and then I reported, \"My report is complete.\" He said, \"I understand. I thank you very much for your explanation. These ideas are new to me.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2197, "page_number": "1750", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "I can see that you know about them; otherwise you could not have explained it in such a short time. With these words I saw that he was very clear in these human questions. He asked me some questions which showed that he really understood the whole problem. And I only can repeat again that the way which Germany took would have been a different one if this great and wise man would have remained in the government; for Germany owes him a tremendous amount. I always considered him far above Hitler, and I think all soldiers thought the same thing.\nQ.Did you meet the War Minister, Blomberg, and what were your relations with him?\nA.I very often saw him after we started arming in 1935. He was Goering's superior and he often sent for me, in these years until 1938, when he resigned. I often saw him and saw him more often than I saw Goering. He was a true soldier, a very friendly man, he knew what he wanted. He was the only superior soldier from the army who also had a political feeling, and his influence on Hitler in the first years was very great, especially as long as the Chief of Staff was Reichenau. He also was very clever in dealing with political questions. Hitler esteemed Blomberg very highly, and Blomberg also quite frankly told him his opinion - and Hitler listened to him - at least, on the whole. Only some actions which Hitler took, such as the reconstruction of garrisons in the Rhineland and also, later on, the action in Austria, were done against the advice of Blomberg, and Blomberg had to give in in this matter. But the difficulties which he created were very great for Hitler and Hitler did not want to listen to him later on.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2198, "page_number": "1751", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "But in the first years, by the faithful loyalty of Blomberg and also by the loyalty of the army and the armed forces through his action, his treatment of Blomberg was not exactly a grateful one. Blomberg was very interested in all questions concerning the Luftwaffe. He stood beyond the Party although he was an army man, and he supported the Luftwaffe in every way possible, which we demanded from him. He was my great help. Always, what he promised he kept, and what he didn't want to promise he refused at once -- and nothing could be done about it later on. He inspected many Luftwaffe troops with me, and until 1938 he knew much better about these units of the Luftwaffe than Goering himself. That is sufficient, I think.\nQ.Witness, I think this is sufficient.\nA.May I add one more thing? Politically he always managed to be sensible and quiet. I always informed him about my own problems. He always shared them and always presented them to Hitler.\nQ.You know that after a not very nice incident, he resigned. Do you consider it correct that Hitler had taken over the supreme command of the Wehrmacht?\nA.No, I considered it only a rise to power, forced by necessity, for the next one who should have ta.ken over was Goering, and Hitler was convinced at that time that Goering would not be fit to carry out these duties. But in this we saw an unnecessary burden for the head of the state because then, in the meantime, after the death of Hindenburg, Hitler became chief of state. He was at the same time, Reichs Chancellor and he was the C. in C. That was too much for one man and Hitler also lacked the knowledge for this position. One cannot be a soldier without knowing about it and having been trained in this.\nQ.Witness, what was your attitude towards the resignation of Fritsch?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2199, "page_number": "1752", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "A.I think this incident, which happened in the spring of 1938, was the greatest shock for me. The resignation of Blomberg could be understood from a human point of view, but the resignation of Fritsch was a dirty business. He was an extremely capable Commander in Chief and without blemish. He was not concerned with politics, in contrast to Blomberg. He did not know anything about politics; he was not interested in it at all, but naturally, in the position in which he was then, it was a great pity. But the manner in which he was removed, because one saw his clear and chivalrous attitude, his purely social feelings, and that he did not agree with things. That was a dirty business, and I know on this question that the Army never got away with it. We were only indirectly concerned with it, but I thought about it and what might possibly have been done and how little any of us expected it. And so he was replaced by another man in the same capacity. He was replaced by an equally capable man in the army. This was Field Marshal Brauchitsch.\nQ.Witness, were you ever Goering's deputy in this capacity, and how long?\nA.Until 1937 I was his deputy, and all offices in the Luftwaffe which were subordinate to him were also subordinate to me. This applied to the execution of orders. From 1937 onwards I was his deputy only in my own sector, and this automatically as Chief of the General Staff in his field, which applies also to the GL. In any case it was within my capacity to deputize for Goering in all matters as I was the second senior officer of the Luftwaffe, and this was done only by way of rank. But Goering reserved the right to appoint a deputy in general, that is, especially always only for the Luftwaffe. This authority he did not confer upon me. Even when he was on leave he kept this right, he retained his command. I agreed with this arrangement personally.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2200, "page_number": "1753", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "Q.Witness, we now approach the development of Germany up to the time of Austria. Did you ever doubt in anything that Hitler was aiming at war?\nA.No. At the discussions which wore taking place he always stressed that he wanted to do everything in a peaceful way. Occasionally he also called the military leaders to tell them also that his armament for which he was keeping up the Wehrmacht had nothing to do with war and that he could not express his political wishes unless Germany was respected and that this could only be done by having a Wehrmacht. He must only have the Wehrmacht from a political aspect. That Was one point of his discussion. The other one was for the Wehrmacht to be faithful toward him and to collaborate with his party, because in all these years rumors were current that the Wehrmacht wanted to make a putsch, which was not true.\nIn the case of Austria I did not have any doubts about it. If I may make a comparison before this Tribunal, Austria and Germany, like North and South America, belonged to each other for hundreds of years, then in 1866 there was a short war, and here in Europe we were not so intelligent; we had too much tradition and we had too many different opinions, and those two German parts, the North and the South, were fighting each other, just as happened in North and South America at that time. Those two parts did not find a way, because the monarchy in both countries did not allow that. Who was to reign, the Hapsburgs or the Hohenzollerns? When the Hohenzollerns and the Hapsburgs were not there anymore, there was no reason at all that these two purely German parts should not join together again, and this wish was expressed by both of them mutually. That there were people in both countries interested in not to give in, was evident. Consequently I saw in Austria a natural procedure but the Republican leaders had the same as the Monarchy.\nI did not consider the methods as beneficial. Hater on I heard that a quite incapable man represented the interests of the Party in Germany and Austria. When I saw this man later on, I had my first doubt about the personal judgment of Hitler.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2201, "page_number": "", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "I did not like the way in which he did it, but the fact was that it was good and was decided by all parties.\n1753a I landed with one of the first planes.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2202, "page_number": "1754", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "We had flowers instead of arms on our aircraft. We were greeted as never before in our own country. As Goering was deputy for Hitler in the Reich, I was ordered to St. Pol ten and had to make the entry into Vienna with him. My home is in North Germany, and there, there are comparatively quiet people, but what I saw in Austria, in excitement and joy, exceeded everything that I ever experienced in all my life. I don't think that southern people could be more emotional than these people in Vienna and in St. Polten. This event was a normal and natural one for me.\nQMay I interrupt you now? When for the first time did you have knowledge of this action?\nATwo days before I was on leave I can not recall the date, but perhaps three days before the march into Austria I reported to Goering and said that I wanted to do some skiing, which I did every spring. Without knowing anything himself, he let me go. He would not have allowed me to go if anything about a march into Austria had been a cute. I spent one day in Switzerland, when I was called on the telephone and told that I should return immediately. I returned. My aircraft landed in Berlin in the evening, and I reported at once to Goering. Goering told me that meanwhile difficulties had arisen with Schuschnigg and the Austrian government, and Hitler was extremely indignant. He had mobilized certain troops and unless Schussnigg gave in he would march into the country, but it was hoped that it could be done without that.\nThings looked a little calmer the next day. In the evening Goering gave a big party in the Pilot's House, and all the foreign ambassadors and ministers were present. In the course of that party he caught me outside for a moment and told me, \"We'll march tomorrow.\" The next morning we did, and I flew over there.\nQThank you. Through this method, in the matter of the Sudeten Germans, did you have any doubts concerning the future policy of Hitler?\nAYes, I did, although there, again, Germans were concerned, but the soil on which they lived was a foreign country. It was a new state, created by the Versailles Treaty called Czechoslovakia, and that state as a whole was not filled with the same desire as was Austria to join Germany.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2203, "page_number": "1755", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "We had many reports in the press and on the wireless that a great many cruelties were committed on the German population in the so-called Sudetenland, and that made the atmosphere in Germany somewhat excited, but the question of the invasion or capture of that country I regarded as unjust. That was a highly dangerous matter.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2204, "page_number": "1756", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "From the basis of information which I had in foreign countries there diminished and I doubted the main disadvantages of that action. It is true, however, the whole thing took place in the Autumn of 1938 and I had not much time to think because by the end of September, shortly after the event, the Big Powers met at Munich and there an agreement was reached which justified the business. That is to say, with Britain and France and said we will agree. I did not expect that myself but I had no reason to be more critical than the Pope. I was extremely relieved when Hitler said to the Reichstag later: \"Now, I have no further territorial demands in Europe.\" I took his word for it.\nDR. BERGOLD:Witness, then in the Spring of 1939 there was the occupying of the rest of Czechoslovakia. Please explain to the Tribunal this matter and your opinion on it and from that moment did you still think that Hitler loved peace?\nIn 1939 I was lucky or unlucky enough, as you may have it, that I was always on leave when something happened. On 12 March I was in Southern Tyrol in the mountains above the Grafholl. With great difficulty I got a wire within actually 12 hours that I must leave at once. I succeeded on the 13th to catch a train to Munich and from there by aircraft to Berlin. Czechoslovakia was invaded on the 15th. Later I heard how the whole matter was done but I never heard then. In the whole period when the matter was acute I was never present. Before I went to Tyrol on the Grafholl nothing was acute of the whole matter. The whole thing must have been arranged in a very short period of time -- maybe two weeks. The invasion of Czechoslovakia after the Munich agreement and the march into the Sudentenland after the promises to have no more territorial demands was a flagrant violation and from then outwards I was convinced now this will lead to war and as I know the British will not stand for this and automatically Britain and her former allies will join her again and I expected at that time even that complications would follow. That it did not happen probably then was that because in Britain armament which had been in full swing for years was not quite far advanced enough because otherwise the balloon would have gone up then, I am convinced.", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2205, "page_number": "1757", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "QWitness, what steps did you take from your viewpoint? What did you do in order to express your peaceful viewpoint and in order to prevent the war? First I spoke with Goering, then with Hitler himself.\nAUnhappily neither Blomberg and von Neurath were still in office at the time, whom I would have seen otherwise. I said to Pohl that our armament was not any where ready for war. I recalled in particular that I said apart from the lack of military leaders we had no bombs. We only had small bombs of 10 kilograms, some 60 kilogram and some 250 kilogram which you could drop in a few minutes. The quantity was very small which later on was proved. In a few days of the Polish War we spent 60 per cent of our bombs with only half our Luftwaffe. Hitler said \"We don't need bombs. There will be no war.\" I said that I differed. That the Munich agreement had been the last word said by the others in a friendly manner. Hitler said \"no\". \"If that had been the case then they would have attacked us already and the others do not wish war nor can they do anything useful with the war.\" I had to use this opportunity because I could do something for the peace. Later on it would no longer have been possible. I said again that I differed and that the situation had to be faced squarely and as unfortunately the thing had gone that far now I had to do that which was most important for the armaments which as far as this country was concerned, was to manufacture bombs. The capacity of which and the experiments of which could only take place not in five months or five minutes and that could only be done if the manufactured bombs could be given priority. Hitler smiled and said I need not worry at all. His policy would be such as to avoid war. He wouldn't dream to have a war and he reminded me that he had told me that once before -that his policy was to be on good terms with Britain. I expressed my doubts that that was very possible. He told me to be convinced. He knew the British can only be entered through acts and through the acts. I said there was a difference somewhere. In any case he refused to have bombs manufactured. This request I repeated another three times to him as I was very much concerned about it and I said to myself; should war break out tomorrow I could be reproached justifiably that the Luftwaffe and the bombing fleet could take four weeks' leave after the outbreak of the war -- for about five months.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2206, "page_number": "1758", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "I would not have been in a position to tell the German people that I was not me but Hitler. Hitler had on all occasions again refused and declared: \"I don't know what you want. There will be no war. The world has swallowed what he did and now we are very, very strong.\" Then once more after a conversation in May with Mussolini, who declared once on his own initiative, he said: \"Milch, war is inevitable now\". Quite different from Hitler. When I returned in May I told Hitler what Mussolini thought. Hitler smiled: \"Mussolini is wrong. There will be no war,\" In July 7 to 11 there was a General Airforce Congress in Brussel. The British Commander-in-Chief and the French Commander-in-Chief was there so I as deputized by Goering, who didn't go to these congresses. After that period I was unable to see Hitler but Goering and I told Goering that the attitude taken by the British delegation made it quite clear to me that Britain was waiting for her moment. The impression I made could not be overlooked. The British Commander--in-Chief of the Airforce Sir Newall, he left no doubt open that things were different from 1937; that patience was now exhausted on the other side. I asked Goering to tell Hitler that and I do not know whether he did so. It was not possible for me in any case to see Hitler,\nQWitness, will you please give us the date of the conference with Mussolini?\nAThat was on 26 May 1939.\nQWitness, I have now to put to you that on the 26 May 1939 you heard from Mussolini that he was of the opinion that war was now inevitable and you told us here under oath that you saw from that Mussolini had a different viewpoint from Hitler but now on the 23 May 1939 at the Reichskanzlei of Hitler there was this famous conference with the British, the Schmundt Minutes, and from which as far as the whole, you all had gained the impression that Hitler in this speech had talked in favor of war, I now ask you to express to the Tribunal what you think of these conferences of the 23 of May 1939 which, according to self-appearances, there was a contradiction of exclamations given to you and given your opinion of it?", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2207, "page_number": "1759", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "If you want to have the Schmundt Minutes to make your explanation I can hand it to you. May it please the Tribunal, this is Exhibit No. 3, Document No. 79 and the Document Book is 1-A of the prosecution, on the first page.\nAThe history of this conference was that at the end of March we were told by our intelligence service that -- in a very clear report -that in Poland on the German Frontier matters of mobilization were in full swing. I made a particular note of this in my diary. Shortly before that -- about ten days before that -- the invasion of Czechoslovakia had taken place, Poland bad been a party in this and was given the so-called Teschen area. Poland at once occupied this militarily but Teschen, the territory ceded to Poland by Germany -- far out that led to mutual difficulties and these difficulties, our intelligence service told us, led to the mobilization measures. Thereupon I heard no more at that point. Later on, however, it was stated that Poland would continue with these measures. The conference on 23 Hay was a complete surprise to me. I was in my office in the Reich Air Ministry when a telephone call came through as far as I know by Bodenschatz, that Goering who had just returned from his leave in Italy was unable to be present; that I would have to deputize for him. It was so late that I couldn't even go home in order to change into my official uniform. For instance, that is the Army and the Luftwaffe appeared in boots on occasions. The conference started at 1600 and lasted until 2030. That is to say four hours and a half. Hitler spoke alone as was the rule on occasions of that sort. Field Marshal Goering; did not appear as a participant. I know that not only because I had been ordered to deputize him so suddenly but also Hitler said at the end of the conference that the participants of the meeting must not talk about these matters, even among; themselves. After the conference I went up to him when I took my farewell from him and asked him whether I should inform Goering. Hitler said \"no, I shall do that myself.\"", "speakers": [ "A" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2208, "page_number": "1760", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "As there was no conference of that sort in that period with which I could confuse this conference to myself it is quite clear that Goering was not present. I recall very well to have seen Brauchitsch, Keitel, Halder, Bodenschatz, Schniewindt, Zeschonek, and Below, the Adjutant of the Luftwaffe. I cannot recall the other adjutants, etc.\nQDo you recall Raeder?\nAYes, of course, I can certainly recall Reader being there.\nQ fitness, I must speak to you now that Goering has testified before the International military Tribunal -- it is true that he said: \"I did not attend this meeting\" but later on when it was put to him and a list of attendance and his own remarks which are in the Schmundt Minutes shown to him, he changed his mind and he said ho thought that he was present.\nAI am convinced that Goering made a mistake if ho said that. I read that passage that Goering was present. No, he didn't speak there. I am certain Goering never know in these cases whether he was there or not. He had his finger in too many pies for him to recall everything on occasion and actually he wasn't present and above all, if Goering was present he would have at the end of the mooting -- ho would have to say: \"My Fuehrer, I will fight with you. We and the higher leaders of the Wehrmacht stand behind you. You give our orders. We follow.\" He would never have put a special question. It's possible Goering was never informed on that material question and secondly, he was a man of such formality that on occasions when the Chief of State and Chief of the Armed Forces was speaking, he would not have liked to disturb the picture by asking technical questions.\nQWitness, are you absolutely certain?\nAI am absolutely convinced he wasn't there because otherwise it would have been nonsense to ask Hitler should I inform Goering.\nQWitness, can it be possible that you didn't see him.\nANo, no. The circle was so small and we could see each other so clearly. I said next to Raeder and Brauchitsch right in front. I recall that on my left there was Raeder and on my right Brauchitsch.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2209, "page_number": "1761", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "I sat on the chair which was meant for Goering. Therefore, I was sitting in the middle and which was not entirely in accordance with the rank but we lost the piece of paper with his name on it and Goering was probably expected.\nQPlease go slow, witness. Witness, if Goering had appeared during the meeting would you have surrendered your chair?\nABut certainly. Goering would never have taken the second chair.\nQWitness, will you now explain your general impression of this conference of Hitler's of the 23 of May 1939 and especially according to your conception at that time? Whether you believe the former assurance Hitler made to you, the assurance in which he felt there would not be any war and whether be contradicted to these assurances?\nTHE PRESIDENT:At this time will you inform the Tribunal whether this will take a considerable time?\nMR. BERGOLD:Yes, quite some time.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Perhaps rather than get it into two sections and not interrupt it we should start at 1:30 and have it without break.\nTHE MARSHAL:The Tribunal is in recess until 1330 this afternoon.\n(A recess was taken)", "speakers": [ "A", "THE PRESIDENT", "MR. BERGOLD", "Q", "THE MARSHAL" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2210, "page_number": "1762", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1335 hours, 12 March 1947.)\nERHARD MILCH - Resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued) BY DR. BERGOLD:\nQ.Witness, I ask you now to state have you understood generally the speech of May 23, 1939, especially in connection with the declaration Hitler made to you according to which he was not expecting the war.\nA.This conference lasted four and a half hours and was even for a spectator extremely difficult to follow. I asked myself what purpose this conference served and I reached the conclusion that for one thing Hitler, who after all had become C. in C. of the Wehrmacht, wished to tell his C. in C. of the army, navy, and air force about his military ideas. To put it mildly he wanted to make an impression on his military leaders. He wanted to show them militarily, how much he knew about the highest military matters himself, and especially the high officers of the army were not in agreement with the fact he was C. in C. of the army because they considered him unprepared for his task.\nSecondly, from 1933 onward I can recall four or five conferences, sometimes among more people, during which Goering told me one was not always certain how loyal the soldiers were, and Hitler by speaking very impressively wished to give these soldiers a feeling of loyalty. Especially after Fritsch's resignation the officer group was not appeased as the soldiers, in contradiction to Hitler's promise, were very severely supervised. An good deal of material regarding remarks against Hitler by soldiers must have been at people's disposal. Hitler frequently expressed the opinion, and that was my thought, that soldiers had pacifist tendencies. He explained that by the fact that the First World War had been lost, and the confined mentality of the 100,000 man army. He believed that this pacifist attitude of the officers must be changed, he had to wake them up, he had to point out how acute the danger of war was or otherwise his soldiers would not do sufficiently in the rearmament program as he wished them to.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2211, "page_number": "1763", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "The overall situation in May 1939 gave him a welcome opportunity to pursue all these ends. This is what I thought myself insofar as I believe I knew Hitler at the time.\nNow I look at the record which I did not see before. There are several points which strike me. It is quite obvious that these few pages, there are altogether twelve pages, represent only a fraction of a conference, of a speech which lasted four hours and a half. Hitler did not speak slowly. If he got excited, which he always did when he spoke, then he spoke very, very quickly. It was extremely difficult to ask spectators to follow him; one, because he was so fast two, because he spoke in Austrian dialect which we north Germans cannot follow quite so quickly. This conference, I know very well he talked to us for one hour on the origins of his political mission. We called that \"now he is talking about Adam and Eve.\" I know that all his other speeches, he addressed the nation over the wireless, crowds over the air, one hour was always \"Adam and. Eve\" before he went over to something else. He explained to the soldiers, he was convinced, he said, that a soldier did not know anything about foreign politics. He told them what the German situation was within the framework of the world.\nIn 1939 he had changed a little in comparison to the earlier years. He was much more convinced of his own virtues than he was earlier. I recalled his modesty was not so apparent any more. Then he patted himself on the back on his successes. He talked for a long time about his successes, Austria, Sudetenland, Czechoslovakia.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2212, "page_number": "1764", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "When the latter subject was mentioned,he spoke oh the collaboration of Poland in order to take over the Sudeten area. At that time he became extremely furious because the Poles asked for more than he had arranged with them. He abused the Poles and said on that occasion, \"For the rest I have another account to settle with them; the question of the Corridor hasn't been cleared up yet,\" He said, \"Originally my requests wore only concerned with preserving a corridor through the Corridor; that is to say, a German Corridor from the Reich to East Prussia across the Polish area, which reached the Baltic north of Warsaw.\"\nLater on the Free City of Danzig is mentioned. I don't think he referred to Danzig at all because he confined himself particularly to that question. Then he spoke on Britain. He said that he wished to work with Britain, but he said also Britain did not wish that he would clear up the question of the Corridor with Poland. He then abused the British. He said the British wished to have the world to themselves and they wouldn't even let poor little Germany have the Corridor.\nFrom that matter it became quite clear what his opinion was. He became more and more excited, and then he said, \"We must think what will happen if, because of the Corridor question and that question I want to settle, if war breaks out because of that, what nations will oppose us; what can these nations do militarily; and what can Germany do against them.\" And he talked about that a long time. He had no notes with him. He spoke without any notes, and in my opinion he completely abandoned his original subject. I cannot recall that as in the document it says, \"Without invading foreign states or attacking foreign territory, this is not possible.\" He said, \"In fifteen or twenty years resettlement will become a matter of necessity to us. No German statesman can avoid that question any longer.\" He said before, as I recall it, that the German people consisted of eighty million people. He then spoke for a long time how many people there were to the square mile, what agriculture these people needed, and that now just enough material was available, but in twenty years, for instance, the German people would have increased so much more that then the figure of over one hundred million was mentioned.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2213, "page_number": "1765", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "Then our soil would no longer be sufficient; then we would have to have more soil. Then he spoke for a long time on the question of a nation without space, his favorite expression of the have not and the rich nations and so forth.\n\"Other successes can no longer be won without shedding blood\"; it says here. That was an idea which he did not have at that time and altogether that idea and ether ideas contained herein; I can tell you the various details; all these ideas really come only in a later period. He had these ideas only in the war.\nIn many speeches he very often used the same phrases and words as everybody knows who has listened to his speeches to the nation. He did not change his style very often. Many of these expressions were only too familiar to us or look very familiar now, but in certain of these expressions here I am of the opinion that it can be proved that he would not use them in 1939.\nHe said in one case he is expecting to be given colonies. I know that in 1933 and 1934 Hitler said once before a number of people that Bismarck's policy had been wrong in acquiring colonies; that only forced Germany to have a fleet and the German Navy under Wilhelm II had been the reason why there had been war with Britain. And in practice a colony achieved really very little; which would have preserved him from ever acquiring colonies.\nIn '36 and '37 he had changed his point of view completely. From an economic point of view the necessity to have colonies became urgent; and he always stated that Germany has been deprived of her colonies by the Versailles Treaty and we must get them back. In the same sense I understood his intention to build big battleships; for in '33 and '34 he was not interested at all in a Navy. He frequently said that was only going to lead into trouble with England. \"I don't want to have a Navy. I want to work with England.\" But in '39 he was an enthusiastic colonial politician and pro-Navy. I know that because in '36 and '37 I mentioned it three or four times, and I said that Germany was in no position to build a Navy of big battleships, and when he said, \"I need it for colonies if we get them\", I recalled his earlier speeches that he did not wish to have any colonies, and that in my opinion colonies were of no necessity.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2214, "page_number": "1766", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "As the time in which one can have colonies was a limited one, it was hardly worthwhile to acquire colonies now. So, therefore, in that conference he certainly did not refer to colonies.\nHe declared that by the Protectorate new food had been supplied to Germany, and above all, a fairly good industrial capacity was available there. He thought in particular of the Skoda Works, which, before the last war, were the true Austrian industry and which he knew very well. To him the Skoda Works meant the same thing as to a German would mean the word Krupp. He also said, \"As the Czechs will not be called up as soldiers if there should be a war, there in these big Bohemian industrial works we shall have a first rate armament works which can work for German military requirements.\"\nAll his questions about the war were of a hypothetical nature. He took part in certain maneuvers arranged by the Army, and now, in my opinion he himself wished to put hypothetical cases in a military sense-if this happened something else must be done and so forth. Surely all countries do this on the general staff, that they assume a certain situation and then work on that situation accordingly.\n\"A decision to attack Poland on the first given opportunity,\" as it says here, I have no recollection at all, but surely I would remember that, because that would have been a considerable step to take. The question there must not be simultaneous war with the West or if, in the course of a German-Polish conflict, war would be excluded, war with the West would not be impossible, then the war would primarily be directed at Britain and France; that has not been said in that form.\nThen there is a passage, \"Japan is a very grave problem. If, for various reasons, they take a cool attitude towards working with us, it is all the same in Japan's own interest to work to take steps against Russia in good time.\" I can not recall that the term Japan has been mentioned in this conference at all, but apart from that, that idea contradicts in '39 when Japan did not see Russia as an enemy, but the United States.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2215, "page_number": "1767", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "The remarks on economic relations with Russia are incorrect in this form here. He said once the political relations are improved, then economic relations will be possible. At that moment there were no negotiations with Russia at all, but they started late in August only. He only abused Russia at that time on 23 May in his old manner which came from certain home political opinions. It is very typical because in August political relations improved, and on the basis of these political relations there was an economic agreement also which guaranteed Germany a fair amount of foodstuff, I believe it was one million tons per year, and also a considerable support for materials necessary for war purposes.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2216, "page_number": "1768", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "That remark could have been made only after the end of August. Then it says here, \"If there were an alliance of France, England, and Russia against Germany, Italy, and Japan -- here he still thinks Russia is on the enemy side, -- \"I would be constrained to attack England and France with a few annihilating blows.\" I have to say this about that. A few annihilating blows were never mentioned before the war. The Wehrmacht and also Hitler were convinced that it would be a long and difficult struggle in order to gain a foot-hold in France in the military sense. The experiences of the First World War when those long battles took place on French soil without the possibility of strategic break-through did point out to the Wehrmacht not to take too lighthearted a view of a new war.\nWhen France fell so quickly in 1940 everybody, including Hitler, was tremendously surprised. We couldn't understand it for a long time because otherwise it could not be understood why not immediately after Dunkirk an action against Britain would have been taken by the Wehrmacht, instead of which there were preparations for months, and the Luftwaffe and everybody else remained completely inactive without going into action. If one had counted on a few annihilating blows, then surely there would have been the ships ready to sail to England. That operation was started after Dunkirk; and it took several months until the first ships of the so-called Sea Lion were assembled on the Channel coast. At the time an operation against England was no longer possible. \"The Fuehrer doubts the possibility of a peaceful settlement with England.\" He did not doubt it. He always emphasized that he wished to direct his policy in such a manner as to work with Britain; and he always said, \"Even if Britain now condemns my action and threatens me, I shall know how to deal with it. There will never be war with Britain, even if I have to give in politically. But the British are very good at bluffing. So am I. We shall see who is better at this game.\"\nI was convinced to the end and am so now that Hitler bluffed, just as in the affair when he occupied the Rhineland, in the case of Austria, Czechoslovakia, and the Sudetenland. He did not wish to go to war at that time; and as he was successful in bluffing because of the first operations, he was backed by nothing, and he wanted to bluff again and believed himself to be able to attain the glory of having settled the Corridor of Poland, even if it were only the Corridor across the Corridor.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2217, "page_number": "1769", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "Because he was very ambitious, he was convinced that he would always be successful. He believed that he had been appointed by Providence, as he called it, and particularly favored by Providence.\nHitler was not a blasphemist. On the contrary, originally he was very pious. He said to me once, \"A man who does not believe in God will never be faithful to his people. I do not wish to have anything to do with anybody who has not his God in his heart.\" He said so in 1934 or 1935. Therefore, all these words concerning Britain are wrong.\nAbout Dutch and Belgian air bases to be occupied militarily, nothing was mentioned at the time. That was an idea which was completely remote at the time. \"The opinion to buy one's way out cheaply is dangerous. There is no such possibility.\" These are ideas which it is true he expressed but always on the hypothetical assumption that there may be war and if there is a war, then it will be a life and death struggle, and then we must burn our boats. Either we win or we shall be dead. This was just a pep talk for his generals.\nHe was sufficiently well-informed not to say that \"Britain in the last war could feed herself without importing, which is no longer possible today.\" Britain didn't feed herself in the First World War without imports, which Hitler knew very well. He says here that meager supplies may cause the collapse of the whole enterprise. It is quite clear that he meant the 11th of January 1940 when an aircraft which was to have received an order had to make a crash landing in Belgium; and secret orders regarding our aggressive intentions against Holland, Belgium and France were carried there. Hitler never counted on such things.\nTHETRIBUNAL (JUDGE LUSMANNO): I'm confused as to the dates. These are notes of a conference or of a lecture on May 23, 1939; and I understand the witness refers to an episode of January 1940.", "speakers": [ "THE" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2218, "page_number": "1770", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "Perhaps I didn't catch that correctly.\nDR. BERGOLD:May it please the Court, the situation is this; and the witness will explain it in advance that in his conviction this record in this form was written only in 1940. That was the reason why Neurath, Raeder, and Schmieling were interrogated by me; and that is why this case is current now.\nTHETRIBUNAL (JUDGE MUSMANNO): When he said he was referring to the episode of January 1940, he meant Schmundt was referring to the episode of 1940 and not Hitler?\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes, that is so, Your Honor.\nBY DR. BERGOLD:\nQWill you please continue?\nAWhen this silly accident occurred on the 11th of January 1940, I know that Hitler always referred to this episode as a \"Silly accident\". I never heard him use that term before or otherwise. Then there's Point 4, why a surprise may not come off, Weather conditions. That point comes from the time after the Polish war. Hitler immediately after Poland wished to attack the West; but it demanded a period of six consecutive days of fine weather because at that time he was still convinced that he could attack only with the help of the Luftwaffe; and the Luftwaffe needed fine weather. There were so many weather conferences at that time as I had never seen them in my thirty-five years and more of flyers' life. Every single day and every day in Hitler's presence the weather exports would foregather. We said, \"He'll talk to them until they will really provide fine weather.\" There was a man even engaged who was supposed to produce. it. He alleged that he could influence the weather. He had a funny name which I can't recall; but his name sounded suspiciously like \"Deceiver\". So we said, \"We needn't give him a nickname because he's got one already.\"\nIn 1939, in May, Hitler didn't bother about the weather conditions, I am not sure even that he knew we had a weather service in the Luftwaffe, nor can I recall that in this context he spoke about the justice or the injustice of treaties.", "speakers": [ "A", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2219, "page_number": "1771", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "It's also very illogical that he should say here that an annihilating blow could only be dealt if and when one did not slide into a war afterward or during the war with Poland. This is the correct statement. He does not wish to be involved in war with England. He would regard that as a great political blunder if he became involved. He does wish to settle the Corridor question of Poland but does not wish to risk war with Britain on that score. The idea that the army will have to hold positions and so forth is an idea which he also only conceived in the war with France.\nThen there is the sentence about the army in cooperation with the navy and the Luftwaffe, and once the army has taken the most important positions, the industrial production no longer flows into the military matters but will be for the benefit of the Luftwaffe and the navy. To that I have to say that this is such a typical idea which was conceived only after the war with France. That Hitler should have spoken about the Danaides, which is an old mythological comparison, is quite impossible because such expressions are completely unknown to him. He didn't learn that in his school days.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2220, "page_number": "1772", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "To the question that the industrial production should be for the benefit of the Luftwaffe, I could provide evidence of that; that after the war in France, as late as the spring of 1941, I should say perhaps April or May, very short of the Russian campaign, there indeed Hitler calls together a conference and said, \"Now I no longer need the armament for the army. Now a lot, or a large part of the factories that should work for the Army should be switched over for the Luftwaffe, and, also take part of it for the Navy.\" He stated that fact in that manner. He said then he could not sleep, that he had a new idea. Now he could give the Luftwaffe what it had always demanded. That was in 1941. I am convinced that this record was not written before 1941. He never said that the British Navy had a defense installation against the Luftwaffe at that time; that may have been the case in 1940 or 1941. It is not true, because the defensive installation of the British Navy was in existence in 1939. I got this as one of the reasons why he actually had this war in 1939, but that is the reason given about the events afterwards.\nThen there are the other two very clear points which enlarged only after the war had commenced; The correct estimate of the effectiveness, for instance, of the aircraft, the battleships, and the aircraft carriers, and, which is the more effective on little occasions, and it was considered as a whole the aircraft carrier is a better protection for a convoy, and, (b), is an air attack on a factory more important than on a battleship, where the battleship protection is any protection for a convoy. The question of aircraft carriers, battleships and convoys arose only in 1940, then the new ones were built for convoys.\nThe question of aircraft attack on factories, or on battleships, was discussed by Hitler for the first time after the campaign in France, roughly, in August 1940. He maintained that you could sink a battleship by bombs, but he was speaking only of cruisers and smaller battleships for sometime thereafter.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2221, "page_number": "1773", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "Then the attack an the British was stressed, and he concentrated on the question which of the other, British Navy or the British Industry -- the British war industry should be attacked, and should be number one, but that before the battleships even the aircraft carriers should be attacked. These questions arose, in other words, in the fall of 1940. I myself have had no idea on that but just the same started to study various things which had been brought together, and, he said at that time, that I know that the questions connected with the war must be studied so that for every emergency a solution should be held ready in every regard, and he himself included as in the \"C in C\" not to be made part of this. I do not know whether this sort of planning so started was brought together with the aircraft. I never heard anything about it at all. Then finally the question of secrecy arose. He certainly did not care that secrecy must be maintained so far as Japan and Italy were concerned. The first question of secrecy towards Italy arose when Italy attacked and invaded Greece from Albania. Hitler was highly indignant because he had not been informed previously, that the Italian government had not taken him into its confidence; although after the Italian Army had marched into Greece, after this occurrence I think he would have never had the idea to go into Greece. The relations between Germany and Greece were always friendly, even in the First World War. Even when it said that everything which goes through the Maginot Line must be made by Italy, but I know positively in that sense that the Maginot Line was not mentioned at all. Then finally there are the working members, of course, that is, as to the frequently mentioned secrecy orders. These secrecy orders were the so called Fuehrer Order No. 1, and was ordered for the first time as of 11 January 1940, dictated and ordered by Hitler himself, and it said that nobody must tell anybody anything else, and so forth. At that time nobody thought of the order, and the order was not even mentioned at that time. As to what I said at the beginning, Hitler said, \"in all my conferences I want to say that all those questions must not be discussed at all amongst each other\", which is the reason I conferred with Goering on that subject.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2222, "page_number": "1774", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "Q.Witness, you talked also on the question of where Goering is alleged to have asked the question at that meeting you talked about this morning.\nA.Yes, I remember.\nQ.I want to ask one more question in this regard. On one point was the population of non-German territory, makes no military service and is available for labor, and this question arose at that time in which the slave labor was talked about?\nA.I think that is entirely out of the question of slave labor available, as I recall that in the connection of the Skoda works it was mentioned and particularly it was said that every good worker is in the priority, and protection to be assured every good skilled worker, he said. I know that as late as 1940 there was a meeting called where it was discussed within this four year plan at the time the assurance on the question of making prisoners of war available for work. This was maintained, and, that is, I know there was an agreement with France on the use of the prisoners of war. That was a new idea at the time, and the recruiting of foreign workers came from the time when the labor plenipotentiary decreed that work.\nQ. In other words, you mean to say that from this meeting you did not try to conclude that Hitler was planning to use slave workers, or workers of foreign nations?\nA.In no sense of the word. May I repeat, I don't think that Hitler he did not actually plan the war at the time, but that I say with regard to slave workers in the sense discussing it, he could have discussed that with Sauckel, and reported to Sauckel about it, and this idea of war in a practical sense was not in his mind at all, therefore, not the question of slave labor.\nQ.Witness, you have had a talk with him before that in which he assured you that there would be no war?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2223, "page_number": "1775", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "A.Yes.\nQ.In this conference, did you get the impression that Hitler had changed--basically changed his viewpoint?\nA.No. In a conversation, or in a conference like this one, or from any conversation in the past, not only before he succeeded Blomberg as \"C in C\", but also when he was Supreme Commander after Hindenburg's death, and he was very fond of planning and of solving different kinds of strategical problems.\nQ.Witness, you have said that Hitler had told all of his listeners that they should not talk to each other about these things. If at that time there had been talk of preparation of war, would not they have been necessary to speak to each other with regard to these preparations?\nA.Quite obviously. For instance, in my capacity as Inspectorate General, at the time also I was responsible for the training of the people on the feeding, and on the clothing of the troops and other equipment of which I had to know, so that I could have then taken preparations. I had no orders in the sense to make any preparations, and already I said this morning about the promise which we did not have. I always urged the bombing part of the question that he mentioned in the conference, because I say the invasion of Czechoslovakia could not have been effective without war.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2224, "page_number": "1776", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "QWitness, as a result of this conference, had you made any preparations for this alleged or claimed coming war?\nAIn no sense. I would have had to have an order from Goering via the General Staff. The General Staff would have had to make the proper decisions; Goering would have signed them, and I would have been given them and carried them out. Not one of those orders ever reached me.\nQWitness, did I understand you correctly? You mean to say that the protocol, or the minutes here, do not correspond to the real contents of the conference?\nAThat is what I wish to say. I am firmly convinced, having seen real record here for the first time - formerly I saw brief extracts in English, which did not give all these details - I am perfectly convinced that here history has been falsified, because it was intended to force history in order to prove how wise Hitler was to foresee events as early as 1939 after he had been successful in Poland and the West, and when he thought the war had been won for him. May I also add that in the course of the war a department war history was founded in Hitler's staff, and history was written in that same way.\nQIn other words, you speak of a falsification of war history?\nAHitler himself was not responsible for these falsifications, but the various people who were in this department.\nQWitness, in connection with this conference of the 23rd of May 1939, you have been reproached with having been called to this conference of the 23rd of May 1939, and that this fact proved that you were a member of the intimate circle around Adolf Hitler. May I ask you to explain your position with regard to that?\nAFirst of all, nobody of the inner circle was present at the time for Keitel and Jodl were not at that time members of Hitler's inner circle, they may have become members of the inner circle, if at all, during the war.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2225, "page_number": "", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "There were only present the Supreme Commanders in Chief, their Chiefs of Staff, and the Chief of the OKW with his representative, nobody else. As Goering was no 1776 a present and I was the next senior officer, I was automatically invited by Hitler's A de C, as it seems that Goering, at the very last moment, was prevented from turning up at a very late moment.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2226, "page_number": "1777", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "I saw that Admiral Raeder says he had turned up in civilian clothes. I think by that he means naval civilian uniform, he means the jacket with the gold braid. The Navy didn't wear their arms equipment, the Navy merely carried a dagger.\nQWitness, when, after that, did you clearly get information that war was intended? From whom did you get the information, and what details do you know about?\nAOn 15August I was ordered to go to Berchtesgaden where Goering was. I wrote in my diary, \"informs me of his intentions. He is very nervous.\" The intention which he expressed there was that there was a possibility, or possibility existed, of war breaking out and all preparations had to be taken.\nOn the 21st of August I was ordered once again to go to Berchtesgaden and on that occasion the four chiefs of the air fleet were present. In the evening Goering told us that there would be a conference at Hitler's office of all military loaders. In that preparatory conference, so to speak, which was concerned with the air fleet chiefs not with myself - the report came in that there had been a telegram from Stalin, as I regarded it, that \"Russia goes together with us.\" Later on I heard that this telegram had not been quite so far-reaching, but we were all under the impression that Germany had come to an agreement with Russia, an agreement which was a very important one for German military questions. German soldiers had always advocated collaboration with Russia as long ago as at the time of Bismarck and Moltke; and the small German Wehrmacht after 1918 became very greatly in good and intimate relations with the Russians' military machine.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2227, "page_number": "", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "On that day, on the 22nd of August, at 4 o'clock, all commanders-in-chief, all leaders of the armed group, all army leaders, all chiefs of air fleets, Mere present. There was a large number of people present, about 40 I should say. Hitler again gave a speech. There was no debate, apart from the fact that Goering once again reassured the Fuehrer of the loyalty of the 1777 a Wehrmacht.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2228, "page_number": "1778", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "During the conference it was said that relations with Poland had now reached a highly critical point, one war seemed inevitable; \"in the next few days orders will be given as to whether you have to report or not; everybody has to be ready; you have to mobilize and you have to take up from this starting point. However, everybody has to wait, as diplomatic negotiations are still going on.\"\nThen in between, I believe there was a brief order for the 27th of August, \"Be ready tomorrow and report tomorrow.\" This order was rescinded a few hours later.\nI do not wish to commit myself 100 percent for that date of 27 August, but I believe it was that day. Just a moment.\nNo, I am sorry, it was on the 25th, the 25th of August. The order was given to \"report tomorrow\", and rescinded very shortly afterwards. We hoped at that moment that the diplomats would settle the matter and war could be avoided.\nThat is how matters stood until August 31, when, at 1700, the order to attack was given for the next morning at 4:30 or some such hour.\nQThank you. Witness, now when, on the 22nd of August, 1939, you heard that the war was rather probable, what did you think at that time? Did you still retain your opinion that the war was to be avoided, or did you change it, or what steps did you take in order to avoid the war?\nAAt the first opportunity I had I talked to Goering, and Goering said to me that through a Swedish gentleman, Count Dahlehus, he was still negotiating with Britain, hoping to avoid war. I am still convinced today that Goering did not wish the war to break out.\nThen, when it was clear that war with Poland would break out, I advised Goering to go to England personally, of course with Hitler's permission in order to try and save what could be saved.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2229, "page_number": "", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "My impression from my visit in 1937 was that Goering had sympathies in England - that was what everybody explained to me at the time, and I assumed that it was correct - while Hitler and other Party members, above all Ribbentrop, were taken a negative view of 1778 a there.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2230, "page_number": "1779", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "I reported this to Hitler also, after my visit to England, that Ribbentrop was hardly the suitable man to represent Hitler's policy in Britain. I felt obliged to say so. Now I believed, perhaps, that a man like Goering, who was diplomatically very skillful and who certainly was very determined to have peace - perhaps he was the only man to avoid war.\nGoering was prepared and went also to Hitler, but I didn't see him afterwards, because shortly afterwards Britain joined in the war, on the third of the tenth month. Britain and France declared war on that day. I had no more possibility of doing anything at all, because though I knew the command of the Luftwaffe Department, they had as little political influence as I had myself.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2231, "page_number": "1780", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "Q.Witness, but you personally, would you have had a possibility to get out of your order to do military service - to avoid that?\nA.That, of course, is quite impossible. After all I was not a fair weather soldier. I had become a soldier to fight in a war should war break out. That was demanded by loyalty to one's own people.\nQ.Witness, what was your first war time order in 1939?\nA.My orders were shortly before the attack on Poland to go to Goering's headquarters and to be among his military staff. That finished my task in the ministry. The organization had been created before in such a way as to have a chief of air defense under me. This chief of air defense had nothing to do with actual defense; it was merely a highsounding title. In a civilian ministry you would have said deputy state secretary. He, in other words, was my deputy ministerial secretary. This was an officer of high rank who looked after all the ministerial tasks in the ministry independently. That didn't mean I lost my position in the air ministry; I was merely relieved, but I remained inspector general. Throughout the Polish campaign and later on in the campaign of the west I followed Goering's headquarters. I made daily flights with the troops, to the troops, and I was only active as an inspector general for there was no point in just sitting around in the headquarters; I had nothing to do.\nQ.Thank you. After the campaign in Poland did you receive a special task?\nA.Yes, I did. I said once before that we had no bombs. On 12 October, that was after the Reichstag meeting, and when Hitler failed to come to peace terms; that offer was never answered; Hitler ordered the war goes on; now you must produce bombs. That really should have been the task of the Army Arms Department. I contacted that department, as I did our own departments, and as the man responsible for the whole complex, it was not until the spring of 1940 when it came to an end, and I saw to it that the Luftwaffe received a sufficient number of bombs. I was deeply worried that the war would start in the autumn as Hitler wished it, and it was not possible to produce bombs between the 12th of October and whatever date Hitler had in mind, because after all if all went well, you would have to have a period of four to five months to start.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2232, "page_number": "1781", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "I began to produce concrete bombs to the tune of one million, which contained sufficient high explosives. The high explosives for these concrete bombs could be produced within a few days. By accident I had seen that type of manufacture in Switzerland, and I thought it a very good idea of producing bombs when I saw the explosive effect, that is to say, on buildings and solid objects which was as good as that of metal, or almost as good as that of metal bombs. We succeeded in a very few weeks to produce a sufficient number of concrete bombs, and in the spring, before we attacked France, we had a sufficient number of bombs.\nQ.Witness, did you know anything about the preparations of the Norwegian campaign?\nA.No.\nQ.When did you hear, for the first time, of the carrying out of the Norwegian campaign and its preparations?\nA.On 8 April, from Goering. The occupation took place on the ninth; a few hours so to speak before.\nQ.Witness, did you have any part in the preparation of the campaign against Holland and Belgium?\nA.On 12th of April I had been promoted Commander of Air Fleet V in Norway. The Luftwaffe there had been under the order of somebody else before. On account of difficulties of service there, moreover, there was only one telephone line which went via Sweden an independent command was to be established there. From the beginning of the war communications had been asked for and we received them to be used at the front. This had been given to me for the time being there. I commanded the Fleet from 12 April until 5 May; then the first operations in Norway had been concluded and connections had been established at the front and Goering insisted that I should return for the campaign in the west. On the 7th of May in the evening I arrived in Berlin, and on 8 May I reported back. That is, I had to report for the first time to the offensive in the the West and it began on the 10th of May.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2233, "page_number": "1782", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "DR. BERGOLD:Before I ask any more questions, may it please the Tribunal, I think that this is the time when the Tribunal would like to take a recess.\n(A recess was taken.)", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2234, "page_number": "1783", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "THE MARSHAL:Tribunal 2 is again in session.\nDR. BERGOLD:Mr. Denney is missing. May I begin?\nTHE PRESIDENT:Wait just a minute.\nBY DR. BERGOLD:\nQWitness, I have to put another question. According to the campaign in the west, you told us that only immediately you knew about that. Did you take part in the preparation for this?\nANo, I did not.\nQWitness, after the campaign in the west you received the Iron Cross. What were the reasons for it?\nAI received it after the Norway campaign, for my work in the Norway campaign.\nQWhen did you become Field Marshal?\nA 19 July 1940.\nQCan you give us the reasons for that, as far as you know?\nAThere was the question of how many vacancies of Field Marshals should be allotted to the Air Force. First of all there was talk of just two. In that case I wouldn't have become a Field Marshal.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Let me announce that any spectators who wish, inside the rail, may sit at this table here.\nBY DR. BERGOLD:\nQPlease continue.\nAIn that case there would only have been the two chiefs of fleet who would become Field Marshals, those who had been in active service in the French campaign. Since, however, I was senior in rank, being the only Colonel General in the air force, one did not wish to pass by me, and Hitler decided that I, too, should be promoted to Field Marshal. In that connection he gave credit for the fact that according to my flying logbook I had made about 40 sorties, and also he wanted to recognize my service in Norway, which actually probably wouldn't have been quite enough.", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "Q", "A" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2235, "page_number": "", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "1783 a", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2236, "page_number": "1784", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "Q.Witness, did you have anything to do with the air attacks on England, the so-called Blitzkrieg?\nA.No.\nQ.When did you know about it the first time of the attack on Yugoslavia and Greece, and did you take part in the preparation?\nA.No, I did not take part in the preparations. The attack took place on the sixth of April. That is, the attack against Yugoslavia and Greece. Both came to the General Government as a surprise, since previously there had been a mutual agreement between us and the Yugoslavs. When the government was removed - I think the prime minister was called Stojadinowicz, and, likewise, the regent, the Prince -- and from that moment onwards the Yugoslavs were at war with us. Greece too, through Italy's defeat, became a prerequisite since it was impossible for us to let down the Italians who were our allies. I myself only heard about the whole affair immediately before the attack, or rather, after it had already taken place. May I just confirm that briefly. It was on the previous day - that is, the 5th of April - in the afternoon, that I landed in Vienna and then I drove out to visit Goering at Semmering in the evening of the fifth day that I learned that the following morning something was afoot. Previously I had been on anti-aircraft precaution inspections through Germany which was under my jurisdiction, and I was responsible for protection of German cities in the West and North, and I had taken care of the necessary shelters there. It was about as I had material and labor for that purpose at the time.\nQ.Witness, when did you know that an attack on Russia was imminent? From whom?\nA.It was on the fourteenth of June, 1941, when I was with Hitler. The orders were given out to the Navy, Air Force, and the Army. On the other hand, previously I had already heard that Hitler was afraid of an attack by the Russians.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2237, "page_number": "", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "For instance, Goering told me so on the 13th of January. I was surprised and I just couldn't believe it. In fact I told Goering, \"I think that is out of the question. We have considerable 1784 (a) supply contracts - mutual supply contracts - with the Russians.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2238, "page_number": "1785", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "There was development work of the German Air Force which was planned, and which had been sold by order of Hitler. For instance, we sold them our latest fighter plane; likewise the most modern and newest instruments, such as ... All these things where we had opposition in connection with these sales because I said these are all things we haven't got ourselves. They have only just been developed. But it was said the Russians wanted these things and we have got to supply them with something in exchange for the large-scale supplies which we got from them. Thus, I did not believe in an attack.\nBut then, at some future time - and I think it was towards end of April - the chief of the anti-aircraft system came and visited me - whom I have already mentioned - who came together with the chief of the Administers' Department, who was in charge of clothing, and he told me that he wanted to have my opinion; whether I believed that, in a Russian campaign, there would not be any necessity for winter clothing. I jumped up from my chair and put my hand down, \"Surely I didn't understand you correctly. What did you say?\" And he said, \"In the Russian campaign, you know.\" I said, \"What Russian campaign?\" And he looked up and said, \"I beg your pardon, Field Marshal. Don't you know anything about it?\" And I said, \"About what?\" And he said, \"I beg your pardon. According to Fuehrer Order Number One you, too, must be told.\" And I said, \"Look here.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2239, "page_number": "1786", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "Now the world is coming to an end. You know something, and I - your immediate superior - know nothing about it\". And he said, \"I am terribly sorry, but I can't say another thing.\"\nNow, of course, I was hit by the idea, although it wasn't a clear one, and I said to him; \"I am now giving you the formal order for the Air Force; that winter clothing should be obtained to the greatest possible degree.\" And, I, myself, ordered that every man should at least have four woolen shirts and four woolen drawers, and that everybody should have high fur boots and a fur coat.\nAnd he followed up by saying, \"These instructions of yours are in direct contradiction of an order of Hitler's.\" I said, \"Well, now, will you please at least tell me what is going on?\" And he said, \"Well, what is really going on - that is something I don't know. We have only got an order to the effect that troops should be equipped with clothing for a Russian campaign. Now, whether that is going to be originated by the Russians or us - that is something I don't know. But it has been said that this campaign would not last through the winter.\" So I went on to say, \"Well, you know, these people have gone crazy. We have already had one war with Russia and we needed three winters for that. And this time we are going to need clothing for three winters, at least, also.\" And he said to me that he was of the same opinion that if I signed the thing, then he would immediately proceed with the matter; that he, himself, couldn't infringe Hitler's order.\nSo I gave him this written order he wanted to the effect that he should obtain this winter clothing. It was obtained and the Air Force could give some of it to the Army afterwards. This was the second point when I had heard it, but it wasn't clear.\nQ.Just a moment, witness. Is it correct that at this occasion that this man said the clothing was not necessary for the reason because the campaign against Russia would be finished before the winter?", "speakers": [ "Q." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2240, "page_number": "", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "A.Hitler had given the order that no winter clothing should be obtained since the war in the East would be completed before the winter. But, of course, considering that I went on to think during the night, it was quite clear what we were concerned with. It was my fear that we would now come to a war. I can't tell you the day when it actually happened. It may have been 1786 (a) the beginning of May.", "speakers": [ "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2241, "page_number": "1787", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "On the twenty-third of May, I visited Goering, and he was at Feldenstein on holiday here at Nurnberg, and I flew across because I had heard some more detailed rumors from some other source in the meantime. And I communicated to him a warning against this eastern campaign, myself. And I requested him to use all his influence with Hitler so that this war on two fronts would not happen to us. I can not recollect my words in detail.\nI could not describe you the situation clearly because never before had I been so deeply shattered and shaken with reference to this question. I told him, \"Reichsmarshal, now your great hour has come. You must stop this war through your influence with Hitler. There is no other person in the whole German nation, aside from you, who would have the strength to do this.\" I gathered from his words in that connection that he, too, was very much opposed to it. He shrugged his shoulders and he said to me, \"Milch, that is a matter without hope. Everything that could be done has been tried.\" I said to him, \"It couldn't be true that everything has been done.\" I said, \"It has to be avoided at all costs. This means a crime against Germany because this would mean Germany's defeat.\" He said that he was not seeing it quite as pessimistically as all that, and that, if Hitler had one of his inspirations, then this would only be because he was now going to beat Stalin to the draw. Hitler would have documentary evidence to the effect that Russia would go into the field against us in any case if Germany would be involved in battles in the West. And I declared, I stated to him that we had a pact with Russia which I knew in detail from my time that I was with the Lufthansa. And I knew now difficult it was to get the Russians to sign a pact for anything - but that once Russia had signed a pact, they would, in my opinion, be extremely faithful to such a pact; this having been my experience, and this having been my prediction.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2242, "page_number": "", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "Goering shrugged his shoulders and I went on to tell him that once I must have the permission to visit Hitler. \"I will stop him from going into this war.\" And he told me, \"That is out of the question. You can't do that.\" And I said, \"Yes, I can\". He said, \"If you tell Hitler that, then he is going to have you shot.\" And I said, \"That would be the most decent death which a German soldier could die; to die for this, to die in an attempt to stop this.\n1787 (a) affair from going through.\"", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2243, "page_number": "1788", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "\"Well,\" Georging said, \"Your death would be in vain just the same; and, apart from that, I prohibit you to approach Hitler in this question. But, if you do it, then you are subject to the most severe punishment. I do not want that a man of the German Air Forceparticularly in your position - to behave like a defeatist before Hitler.\"\nI told him I wanted to do it just the same. And he said, \"You are going by yourself.\" And I said, \"Yes.\" He said, \"I will see to it that you don't get there.\" Then he gave orders to the effect that I wouldn't be admitted before Hitler.\nAt that point, I didn't know anything about the date nor about any other intentions in that connection.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2244, "page_number": "1789", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "Then on 22 June there came an attack, and the first conference was on 14 June in Hitler's office, and on 15 June in Goering's office. I had not been called to the headquarters in connection with this campaign. I remained in Berlin and Goering gave the order to Udet to multiply the airforce. I did not participate in the meeting on 22 June, and Goering gave me the task of advising Udet in connection with this question. During this very conference I repeated my belief that I had previously made and remained right regarding Germany's position at the time. I repeated that early, and I demanded on that occasion that in case German airforce was being multiplied, in connection with that, of course, I am of the opinion, in effect, that the Army had at their disposal, 23 May 1939, the defense of fighter aircraft and night fighters, which should receive much greater priority than they did up to then. The question of the organization, too, was discussed in the conference. I had previously submitted that in writing to Goering in a General Inspectorate report. The arguments which I quoted in that connection were that now, after all, the full airforce must be employed in the East, and that consequently the continuance of the attack with England could no longer take place. Goering contradicted me and said it could run concurrently. I said that was out of the question. I knew as General. Inspectorate approximately the figures, what the figures were as to the production of the British airforce, and I knew that the force was getting from the States, because we had captured France, and was supposed to be supported there. Then I informed him that four-engined bombers would reach Great Britain to a. larger degree, and that they now attacked Germany, and the attacks by the British would increase; that so far as our home country was concerned, there was next to no defense with the anti-aircraft batteries appearing, and that where the Russians merely were to turn upon us an added attack with the antiaircraft it would not take place again; that was after this fighter aircraft was produced for that purpose, and at that time he did not say much about this, but he stated that the program had been laid down by the General Staff, and if they could turn out more, then the German Staff, too, would make higher demands.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2245, "page_number": "1790", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "Q.Witness, may I turn back to your warning against the Russian campaign? Do you know that Goering later on made a disparaging remark, publically or in other words called you a coward?\nA.Yes, I know that. It was when we had Stalingrad I was given the task I should effect a supply line, and I should supply with clothes the troops, and with food, by air, and I heard by air that speech which was made something like that, of course, which pleased me no end.\nQ.How did you know that he meant you?\nA.It was clear because I was the only one who had tried to contradict it; at least, I do not know of anybody else in the air forces was accused of being a coward.\nQWitness, in order to name an initial series of attacks on the defense, I'll have to ask you: Did you take part in the declaration of an attack on America?\nA.No, that was a matter that came as a complete surprise, since the highest leaders did not even know that Japan would suddenly enter into the war. Now, Hitler was demanding from the Japanese that faith that the Allies would demand of us who would also enter into the war.\nQ.Witness, your order to insist that Udet gave assistance as to the Luftwaffe, did you have any assistance from him, and what did it consist of and how did you remove it?\nA.I did go on record that he was a good fellow, and for many, many years he was one of my best friends, and if there was any one I would have had to come in with me there, I would rather like for him to have it than anybody else. I said, \"I think I'll have it that way but only temporarily.\" Then I had him report to me on the entire organization as it then turned out, and I had learned what had been produced, which kind it was that was produced, what was the expenditure, and just what developments that were shown to me, and I flew from industry to industry in the Luftwaffe, and I made suggestions to him as to how that organization should be changed, and to know exactly what he had which were known as being directly dependent on him alone, and further, it was regarded as a loss for one man to have twenty-four different departments directly under him.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2246, "page_number": "1791", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "The military organization mentioned four, and the next mentioned were six departments which can be under one man, and that was a leadership which existed in a case, as long as it was all right, and Udet was of a very general character. The entire machinery, I said, should be comprised of three or four departments, so that he would have only three or four departments, and I showed him the kind of an organization necessary, but he did not like to touch upon that problem, because someone in the immediate vicinity informed him to the contrary, and all the time being a man who was afraid of losing his interest; so I took it that as to his work and his assignment, that I could only give him advice, but then I saw to it as to particular supplies, and obtaining particular supplies, that there was considerable work for the year of 1942 to be done in the aircraft with a type that was standard in the war; that the very type which would be the B-bomber type was being discontinued, and a new type of aircraft was to come up with different motors, and the situation was slightly changed to a new type, and this new aircraft, I want to say I discovered the output was not enough to arrive at in 1942, but that would be under the best circumstances in 1944, and I presented that to Udet but he would not believe me, and I asked the representatives of the industries to come and see us, but they said they did not want to argue any questions, and they admitted I was right, and it was then necessary that the old type should once again be put to use. It was a very difficult task to speak of, for once a type becomes obsolete it is more difficult to start to make that type and then to start a new type in its development. So I say again that it took a. long time until I had it where I wanted it, and I wanted to express my objection very clearly. You must realize that they did already reluctantly give the \"A\" type should once again be produced. In other words, on an engine design, possibly, once an engine is discontinued you cannot start it up again, and then you have to start up with a new engine, whenever it can be made ready.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2247, "page_number": "", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "That of course caused a lot of difficulties afterwards, but it was before my time that the then new engine had become obsolete. Of course, Udet did not like to be told what to do but we did talk it over in its entirety, and any loose angles he might have had given him were removed. Then Goering stepped in, and he was on Udet's side, but he got the impression, or he did give him the impression, that he was ill and he rather gave me the order in Udet's presence I should interfere more strictly, which was something I refused to do. I told him that I only wished to remain in my capacity as Udet's advisor, and Udet would handle the matters coming from him, and Udet then did not want to adopt this new type of organization, and it was forgotten then, but Goering would not forget it then, and one day he gave the order, and. he complained bitterly. He said, \"If I was right from the beginning you know the Fuehrer would have given you the same order a long time ago.\" It was to me, it was a question if this machinery could be controlled, there is no doubt but what you people would have been so glad you might have the best will but some of you people have not that desire, they are too lazy. So very late this new organization was created, and this was on 4 October 1941, during the time when the conversion of the new types of aircrafts were taking place, which was achieved the first cf September. Udet was sick at the time. He was in a. sanitarium, and I saw him, for on that occasion I secured his support by getting a certain amount of pressure, and if he had not got it by September 1, then in 1942, certainly he would not have produced the bomber, and certainly not the single fighter. If I had not been able to produce more fighters, I would not have been acquainted with the situation, but it would not have helped the fighter situation very much.\nWell, after September, after the first of September everything was in perfect order so far as Udet was concerned - my personal relationship with him was concerned, I mean. Then, the 17th of November, the day before he died, I had arranged a short holiday journey, a journey consisting of three days, but when I came to Luetzen he was dead.\n1792.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2248, "page_number": "1793", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "QWitness, before you entered into this organization as an advisor, did you have another special task referring to the French factories?\nAYes. On the basis of theArmistice agreement, a joint production between Germany and France had been arranged. General Roerster, who was heard as a witness here, signed it at the time. Together with Udet, I talked about this when I received the order from Goering to the effect that we were going to suggest to the French that the entire production, not only of French types be continued, but also that German types should be constructed by them. Transports and training aircraft should be constructed in France.\nThen we jointly had a discussion in France with the industrialists there. We met not only the production leaders but also labor leaders, whom we had invited, and with them we reached complete accord regarding the question of manufacturing.\nProduction was particularly favorable to French interests. They had only a claim of the sixth aircraft. We were going to get five-to-one but since we did not have enough use for these types of aircraft, the entire production, right to the very end, remained one-to-one; that is to say, when we got an aircraft, the French too received an aircraft.\nThis was not by any means a forced contract. It was a contract that the French very much liked to make, because it gave them the possibility to retain their aircraft and even to produce now aircraft for themselves, contrary to the Versailles Treaty, where Germany was prohibit ed from doing so.\nQAt this conference with the French aircraft industry and the French aircraft workers, there was a speech. Was that yours, or whose was it?\nAYes, I drafted that for Udet. You see, Udet was not an orator.\nQWitness, now I refer to the actual indictment, at the time when you.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2249, "page_number": "1794", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "acted as GL; when did you become GL?\nAThis was after Udet's death. It was on the 19th that Goering ordered me to come and see him. He told me that he had nobody, that I would have to take on Udet's work in addition to all the other work I was doing.\nJUDGE MUSSMANO:Dr. Bergold, when you refer to a date, please make it a little more specific. The 19th is not quite enough. Give the month and, if you haven't mentioned a year within the few minutes immediately preceding, give the year.\nDR, BERGOLD: I was not going to put it to the witness. I thought the witness was going to give me the exact date.\nAIt was on 19 November 1941, Your Honor, that I was ordered to see Goering, and he told me that I would have to accept this office, in addition to the others, because he didn't have anybody else. I asked him to leave me out. I said that my technical knowledge was not fitted for this task, that for so many years since 1937 I had been outside this technical task, and the brief period of advising Udet, too, had not put me in the picture sufficiently well. He insisted on his request and gave me the order.\nHitler confirmed tho matter on 21 November 1941, and he demanded that I should take on this additional assignment. He had hoard from Goering that I was not willing, but ho stated to me that I would have to do it. He did not have confidence in anybody else to take on this task.\nQDid this commission agree with your thoughts for your utilization in the war?\nANo, not at all. Right to the very end I demanded active service in tho war. I asked Udet if I could not be used in the air force I should be transferred to the army, and I told the army that I was willing to take a division or less. I did not insist on leading an army group in my rank of field marshal. I just wanted to go to the front and go outside this paper war, since the outcome of the war was abundantly clear to me and since all this could be suffered so much more easily if you were in charge of troops and fighting with your men.", "speakers": [ "A", "JUDGE MUSSMANO", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2250, "page_number": "1795", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "On a few occasions the army tried to get me. I know that. On several occasions applications were made, and, in fact, I was going to be given more than a division, but Hitler did not allow it. On one occasion Hitler told a general that he could not spare me from the air force, and I had to stay.\nQWitness, yon just mentioned that Goering forbade you to warn Hitler before the Russian campaign. Did you have occasion before of warning him, or shortly after?\nAAt that tine, before the Russian campaign, I had no opportunity to talk with Hitler. I went to see him on one occasion, but that was previously, when I was not in the picture. It was on 23 April, before I was B.L. and I only went to see him for a brief period. I had been sent off to see Rommel in Africa, and I was to report to Goering and Hitler on the fighting conditions in Africa. I had been there for just a few days, and I had just come back from there, but this report to Hitler was interrupted because Hitler did not have the time. He was going to send for me again, but this never happened.\nQDid you as the GL give up your former duties, as General Inspector and Secretary of the State, or did you continue with these activities?\nANo, I continued with them all, just as I continued the training of all troops, the flying training, and so on and so forth. Therefore, I retained all the other assignments. I did say that it was too much, but it was demanded from me. I must say that the work as GL went to the foreground, as far as time was concerned, from then on. I had to devote most of my time to that assignment, but I was very much overburdened with work. I had certainly worked a lot before during my lifetime, but never as long as I did during that period.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2251, "page_number": "1796", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "QWitness, before I refer to your time working in the GL, I would like to put one more question to you. What did you think when on 22 December 1941 Hitler took over the chief command of the Wehrmacht?\nAI thought that that was a most regrettable fact. The head of a state ought to confine himself to that work, for such a position is not a question of the hours of work he puts in; it is a question of quality, so you have to have peace of mind and tine for thought, and it entails being free of any subordinate responsibility for any special purposes. The leadership of any army is a very comprehensive task, which will take up the entire tine of even the best man. It is not something you can deal with nonchalantly on the side, particularly if you have not learned the business. I thought it an impossibility, considering Hitler's personality, and I thought it was unfortunate as far as the army was concerned and even more unfortunate for the German nation, which, after all, could demand a fully capable supreme commander for every branch of the armed forces, because after all, the war was serious enough at that point.\nQDid you express your doubts on that to anybody?\nAI talked to Goering and my comrades about this question quite often, and there was only one opinion. They all thought that it was wrong, but we did not have the possibility, of course, of stopping it.\nQFitness, what was the position at the beginning when you took over the duties of GL? What measures did you take, and what was your aim?\nAI can be brief in this connection, at least in regard to the first point. General Vorwald yesterday spoke at length about it. No development in the immediate future took place that was useful. No bomber aircraft of a new type was in existence, and in mass production we stood, as I previously described it to you.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2252, "page_number": "1797", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "Painstakingly we had reorganized on I September, and it was only because of the extreme devotion of our industry and because of the faithful service rendered by cur German workers and those who helped them that it was possible to, shall we say, bring about a miracle.\nThe number of bombers was achieved one more in the shortest of time in the spring of 1942. There was not a single individual instance where our program as we had made it for ourselves was not kept, but this is something extraordinary. In the case of fighters, there was a good type of fighter aircraft, or even two; namely, the Focke-Wulf and the Messerschmitt, but there were no engines for those fighters. We had to use incomplete engines to equip these aircraft, and on the strength of my experience collected in my capacity as director of the Lufthansa, I had to have tests carried out. My testing department in Rechlin was excellently staffed, the commander being an excellent pilot and technician, and it was due to their devotion that in a few months we managed to get even these new engines ready, although, according to hi.nan estimate, we could not expect it. It was more through luck than intelligence that we got that.\nNow that was the situation as I found it. The now organization, of course, had not been started up, and I had to collect a few new, extremely good experts. The men who were working there independently were rather downhearted for a long time. As experts they had lost any doubt in the outcome of the war, and they did not believe that it would be possible once again to start up our armament program.\nThe total number of aircraft in production was something in the neighborhood of 800. That included trainer aircraft, transports, liaison aircraft, such as the Storch; it even included towing aircraft which were to be used for parachutists. As far as fighters were concerned, production of those, when it was removed from under my care, had increased by only about ten per cent, although '37, '38, '39, '40, '41--four years--five years-had elapsed.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2253, "page_number": "1798", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "The saddest fact was that in those 800 there were only 200 fighter aircraft, although both on tho British front and in the East, fighter planes were necessary. The Russians had at their disposal a very large number of bombers, and even if they were an elderly type, after all, we did have to have fighters to keep them in check, and since the transport extended from the North to the South over 2,000 kilometers, a large number of fighter units had to be used in that campaign. This army could not be supported with 200 fighters. We needed more.\nThe demand which I found from the General Staff, which of course made all demands and had them confirmed by Goering, amounted to a total of 360 fighters which were to be obtained in 1942. It was said yesterday that immediately I ordered a considerable increase. Several figures have been mentioned by various witnesses. Actually, these increases were not decided upon in one day. To begin with, it was to be doubled and a few days later I said, \"Let's make it 1000; that's a round number,\" and later, in fact, there were 3,000 and later even we planned 5,000. We knew about that time just what we had to expect from our enemies. We knew the types they had.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2254, "page_number": "1799", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "A (Cont'd.) America, in the initial period, still published their production figures correctly subdivided according to types, and we also had an excellent intelligence, and from analyzing aircraft that had been shot down and from the numbers which were coded, and which could be deciphered by an expert right away, we could discover right to the very last number what they had produced. That was production that had been actually carried out, and the figures found in the United States weren't fictitious. Industry, although with a certain amount of reticence and difficulty, but certainly afterwards quite clearly fulfilled these figures. I still know exactly that the plan ran to about 8,000 aircraft, and was achieved, and that figure included four-engine bombers. Production by Britain's rearmaments too was learned in detail, and I remember at the time Great Britain was either already producing 800 fourengine bombers a month or was just about to produce that number.\nYou could calculate from that the number, the quantity of bombs which could be brought to Germany, and regarding the function and size of the bombs, of course we knew about that too. This was, of course, the reason that previously as general inspector we demanded that the entire force should be built to defend our home country, this being the fundamental principle of warfare, since without armaments and life at home battles at the front were unthinkable. I shall later have to come to this question in more detail because I am probably the man who remembers this most accurately, and as long as I am still about I would like to state this clearly once again, because this is one of the most important questions which probably existed in every war. This was the biggest struggle that went on, and as I look back on it today I am surprised that I did not despair over that struggle myself.\nQWitness, those measures taken by you which you planned, were they enforced, but thought that after this starting of the campaign against Russia the situation in Germany would be desperate?\nAAs I said earlier, the fight on two fronts was the stab in the back of this war as far as I was concerned, that I thought excluded victory once and for all, and the only remaining question now was just how badly fleeced we might escape from this whole affair.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2255, "page_number": "1800", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "It was no longer possible in my mind to end this war with arms in your hand. It was only possible by means of arms to attain a somewhat satisfactory final position on the strength of which political and diplomatic steps would have to takeplace. In order to achieve such a final position it was necessary in the first place that Germany should be protected against destruction, because once the war potential was destroyed it was immaterial whether the fronts collapsed a little earlier or a little later. They couldn't be held any longer. This thought, unfortunately, was not understood by our leaders, or respectively they did not agree with it and turned it down and just didn't come to it. The end did not come until there was hardly one stone left intact.\nQWitness, in this connection I should like to ask you to prove of the directness of your present report and the truth, which you already mentioned before, and to submit this to the Tribunal, which remark you had made in your diary when the Russian campaign started.\nAI wrote in it, \"The attack against Russia, the first day 1,800 aircraft destroyed mostly on the ground. The Russians left them there. He didn't expect that we would attack. He overestimated our intelligence.\"\nQWhat did you want to say by these words, \"He overestimated our intelligence?\"\nAWell, the Russians could have thought that no opponent would be so dumb and so stupid to attack him now and create the war on two fronts.\nQWitness, the leadership of the air fleet, was it connected with your plans, or did they agree to your work in the G.L.?\nAThey were agreeable to one affair, that is that I succeed in increasing production very rapidly. In spite of the smaller allocation figures of most materials and the questions of the reduction of our laborers all the time, as I said we had a total of 800 aircraft at the time when I took over, including 200 fighters. One year later, just over one year later in February, 1943, that is to say one year and two months or three months after my taking over we were producing 2,400 new aircraft.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2256, "page_number": "1801", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "But February has only twenty-eight days. If it had more days than that then we would have produced 150 or 250 aircraft more, if we had thirty-one days, I mean. I recall that in July I only took down the number of fighters? but we produced 1,050 modern fighter aircraft. That, of course, had been accurately planned in tho program. We were in that program, but it meant that the increase from November, was 200, to July went up to 1,050 which meant that under normal circumstances three months later would obtain 2,000, and two months after that we would get 3,000 fighters per month. Since preparations and the production of a now fighter takes five to six months, at about that time there were two months which contained more than 2,000 fighters already.\nThe question whether those fighters would be used for the home defense or not is something which I shall have to answer at a later stage.\nQYou said at tho time, at this point, the leadership of the Luftwaffe was agreeable?\nAYes, quite. Of course, the figures demanded by Hitler included bombers and transport aircraft, which were always his main demands, and we pushed that too, but anything that we could possibly use and we could possibly got was used for fighter production. We also had bomber factories. Bomber factories were subdivided in ours, as well as any other country, some only making fighters, others only making bombers. These bomber factories were also used by mo to build fighter aircraft. As that applies to the factory at the Junker works, it was making scats for tho fighters, for instance. Others were producing fusilagos, so in addition to tho actual fighter factories we were actually producing higher factory figures.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2257, "page_number": "", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "QAll right, Witness, soon after you had taken over your duties as G.L. in connection with Speer, did you work with him together, how did you know him and how did you assume collaboration?\nAI know Speer as inspector general for the reconstruction of the capitol, Berlin. On one occasion he showed me all his plans and models for Berlin. Those, of course, I was interested in. Then, in addition, I know that after the beginning of the war he was guiding some industrial construction work for Udet. Earlier this had been handled by private 1801a firms and arranged between tho factories and private enterprise, but, of course everything was somehow controlled in one department and restricted so that smaller private firms and bigger private firms could no longer act on their own initiative.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2258, "page_number": "1802", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "It had all been drawn together, either Todt's or Speer's offices, both offices running side by side, and Speer was responsible for this construction for the air force program for the army. That is how I knew him, although comparatively slightly, but I always had a very excellent expression of him, and I hold him in a high esteem as a man, inasmuch as I could at the time. Speer came after Todt's death, Todt having boon on ammunition and armament since the beginning of the war and was working for rearmament, on the 8th of February, 1942 Todt died in an accident, and on tho twelfth of February Spoor, on Hitler's orders now, took over tho rearmament ministry with a simultaneous task going both those assignments.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2259, "page_number": "1803", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "Todt felt that the head of the entire armament should be chosen. After that time air force rearmament had a curtain amount of greater independence. For instance, they had direct contacts with tool industries, with cast iron works, with firms making crankshafts for aircraft engines and all that sort of thing, and this entire affair now came under Speer's jurisdiction, particularly during the previous days, because no clearcut leadership existed in our sphere; that is to say, the Chief of the Ordnance Department and the man from the Navy and I, following a suggestion of mine, we all had met a few times in order to create such a head position in the armament program.\nI wasn't going to put any particular person into the program. There was going to be a joint program on a voluntary basis for the three of us. We had not informed Todt. We intended to have him faced with the fair accomplishment. Unfortunately, it was at that time that his death occurred. When Speer arrived on the scene we had just formed this joint committee and we had just asked Funk of the Economy Ministry to come along because he still held coal and iron production in his hands at that point.\nSpeer had also been invited, and he now stated that this type of leadership had been ordered for him by Hitler, and since the others had previously asked me that I should be the head I got up and told Speer that God had sent him to us because we had just been looking for the leading man to take on this task and that we were happy and very pleased for him to take it, and ho did, and during all these years we collaborated with him excellently.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2260, "page_number": "", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "Gradually Speer took over more and more tasks in order to round off his armament program, not so much because he was looking for extra work, because he was overburdened considerably, but it was easier for him to have all these questions put under his own jurisdiction than to have to sit in the ante chambers of others. Thus, before ho took over air armament he had the entire armament program for the Army under him, Navy rearmament, all semi-manufactured parts, all raw materials, every part of the construction program, and all current and energy supplies.\n1803a Thus and to myself it was particularly a natter of course that we should see him through thick and thin, and in ay air armament program I suffered fewer restrictions than I would have under someone also, because Speer collaborated with me loyally.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2261, "page_number": "1804", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "Naturally, ho couldn't avoid any restrictions which occurred in his very big house, but when I did go to him and when I did hear of such setbacks, then he always interfered and assisted me. I know the amount of raw materials which we were receiving, because I collaborated in their distribution in the Central Manning Board, but it was, of course, not possible for me to discover the sequence and the level of priority of raw materials which were assigned by Hitler; in other words, tho sequence of the program, or to alter it. That was something even Speer could not do.\nAir rearmament during my period always occupied seventh place, whereas submarines occupied first place; tanks occupied second; ammunition for the Army occupied third; the fourth place was occupied by anti-aircraft artillery, then followed further supplies for the Army. I think anti-tank defenses, and then something else which belonged t o the Army, and then we came in seventh place, but within air armament the sequence was incidentally also decided upon by Hitler. One - bombers; two - transport aircraft; and three - fighters On the strength of that position it was extremely difficult for the fighter or rather, for the entire Air Force to increase armament and keep it up.\nIt is abundantly clear that in this matter, in order to do something for the Air Force. I would have to introduce very strict and severe measures. I suffered under tho conditions, something which I may be able to refer to tomorrow, to a horrible degree. I could sec the decline and collapse of my country drastically before my eyes. I knew how help could come; I tried it, and I didn't get there. I was stopped. That was something which we used to call in the German Army a paper war victory.\nI think anyone can understand that who has ever been in such a war in any responsible position. I fought for this to tho limit of my strength and I must recognize here that all my collaborators, only very few of whom we have had here as witnesses, they were all chaps who helped mo. Not one of these people know any personal factors in this war and for months they didn't even see their families.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2262, "page_number": "1805", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "We, in our Ministry, slept in our offices for months and. months. I was so tired at night that I didn't even go into the shelter when there were air attacks, apart from which, of course, that didn't help very much; it wasn't the proper shelter. But in Speer's case there were many matters which he couldn't alter either, and he couldn't alleviate the situations.\nWhen workers were taken away from mo, from my factories for instance, then there w s something I didn't even know and didn't over learn. When I arrived in one of the factories and they said, \"So many people have now boon taken a.way from me\", and I asked, \"Who has taken thorn away?\" Then I was told, \"tho Labor Office.\" \"Well, where did they go?\" \"Well, we don't know. I can't do anything either.\"\nThen I would talk to Speer and he would say that ho would follow up tho matter, but ho had more work in his comprehensive machinery than to follow up little matters like that. The people who had actually done it didn't, of course, tell him about it. They quieted him down and told him it was all untrue and it was just another bit of stupid talk on tho part of the Air Force. We never got these people back. I am mentioning this case which is probably going to be important later. We could not tell who the workers were that our fact cries received, nor did we know which workers were taken away, but I think that this is something which we shall have to comic to later.\nDR. BERGOLD:Your Honors, I shall now come to the foundation of the Central Planning Board. This is once again a comprehensive subject. We are just before the and of the session and I therefore beg to adjourn, but I have one other request. If, tomorrow, we deal in detail with the Contrail Planning Board it will be necessary for me to have the original records or the photostat copies which are in tho hands of the prosecution, and to have them here before us. At this moment they are in the Information Center. I shall be grateful if this High Tribunal would instruct the Information Center of tho Defense that tho entire records and minutes, inasmuch as they exist and their photostat copies, should be brought to this room for tomorrow morning.", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2263, "page_number": "1806", "date": "12 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-12", "text": "THE PRESIDENT:If those records are available and are in the Defense Information Center, of course you nay have then. The proper parties will be notified to have then available for you tomorrow morning.\nWe shall recess until tomorrow morning at 9:30.\nTHE MARSHAL:This Tribunal is in recess until 0930 hours tomorrow morning.\n(The Tribunal adjourned until 13 March 1947 at 0930 hours.)", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2264, "page_number": "1807", "date": "13 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-13", "text": "Official transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America against Erhard Milch, defendant, sitting at Nuernberg, Germany, on 13 March, 0930, Justice Toms presiding.\nTHE MARSHALL:All persons in the courtroom please take your seats.\nThe Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal No. 2. Military Tribunal No. 2 is new in session.\nGod save the United States of America and this honorable Tribunal.\nThere will be order in the Court.\nBY DR. BERGOLD:\nQ.Witness, do you know at what point the Central Planning Board was ordered and how did the creation of this institute come about?\nA.Its employment must have taken place during the last days of March 1942. It originated from a discussion which Speer had with Hitler in the latter's headquarters. At the time when Speer had taken over the armament, I spoke with him about the fact that there was no higher authority which was acting according to clear-cut points of view when distributing raw material. Until then we had been receiving raw material through a certain department of the OKW. This department in turn had been getting it from the four-year plan. The OKW was distributing to the Army, Navy and Air-force but this department had no expert knowledge. Then subsequently the continuity of armament work suffered under this. Speer rather early recognized the state of affairs and without my having previous knowledge of it he tackled this question when talking to Hitler. As a result Hitler employed --- Hitler appointed Speer as the central planner for this subject.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "THE MARSHALL" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2265, "page_number": "", "date": "13 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-13", "text": "Subsequently Speer made the request that I should take on this task together with him. Since Speer had been in the armament business rather briefly and since he said I would be able to help him -- at least this was the way how Speer discussed the matter with me shortly afterwards because I, myself, hadn't been at that conference. Following this, on the 2nd of April 1942, Speer and I together went to see Goering since Speer considered this task, which, after all, was in touch with the four-Year plan, should be discussed with Goering. Goering expressed agreement 1807 (a) but he demanded that a representative of the Secretary of State or his representative State Secretary Koerner, who was in official contact with the Four-Year plan should enter into tho Central Planning Board.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2266, "page_number": "1808", "date": "13 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-13", "text": "I know that Speer said at this point: \"It seems to me three are rather too many for this job\", and I said, \"Well, I am only too willing to drop out. I have enough work as it is,\" and Speer interfered and said that was out of tho question. Goering said: \"No, it is my view that there can be three.\" That is how the composition of Central Planning was realized. I can add that very much later Minister Funk joined Central Planning Board as a force which was done at the instance when the socalled \"War-Production\" -- and in this case we weren't talking about the armament business and civilian requirements and that matter when this had been transferred from Funk's Ministry to Speer's Ministry.\nQ.Witness, did you, within the framework of Central Planning become the Armed Forces or Air Forces representative?\nA.No, right at the very beginning that had been decided upon Hitler that, namely, that in no way I should look after my own interest there, that is to say, the interest of the Airforce, that I should be above the party. Later on there were demands from the Navy, which I had not known about this arrangement. They, too, wanted to have a representative in the Central Planning Board. But the emphatic answer, coming from Hitler himself, was given immediately to the effect that I was not in the Control Planning Board in my capacity which I was holding in the Airforce. It was not my task either to appear there on behalf of the entire Armed Forces, but on everybody's behalf, since distribution of raw materials for the whole of Germany and for all purposes was being dealt with.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2267, "page_number": "", "date": "13 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-13", "text": "Q.Witness, what were the actual tasks of this Control Planning Board?\nA.The tasks had been communicated to me by Speer and had been confirmed through Goering. There was only distribution of raw materials 1808(a) to all holders of priority permits, holders of the contingent.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2268, "page_number": "1809", "date": "13 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-13", "text": "Q.Witness, what is what you call the \"holder of a contingent\"?\nA.Well, the armed forces are such priority holders, and within the armed forces the Navy, Army, and Airforce are holders of those priorities. The coal industry holds these priorities; the stool Industry; the textile industry; the German cities and municipalities, for their municipal requirements, energy supplying industry.\nQ.What about agriculture?\nA.Most certainly agriculture, for agricultural machinery requires stool, requires coal, requires all sorts of things. Altogether, the forms according to which we used to distribute, and which contained the word \"armament\" on the list, contained, on the right, all the civilian purchasers, all the buyers. There were approximately 40 to 45 civilian holders of these priorities.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2269, "page_number": "1810", "date": "13 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-13", "text": "QBut then what did the Central Planning Board have to do with the Four Year Plan, to which there seemed to be some sort of formality through Speer?\nAThe Central Planning Board as such had nothing to do with the Four Year Plan; only Speer in his capacity as Armament Minister.\nQDid you ever report to Goering about the Central Planning Board?\nANo, with the exception of that first meeting, when the matter was reported to him, it having taken place on the 2nd of April, 1942. Apart from that meeting, I have never talked to him or with him about the Central Planning Board.\nQAccording to your opinion, would Goering have called you in to the Central Planning Board if he, Goering, had founded it?\nANo, I don't believe so. It only happened because Speer expressed his special wish to Hitler. Hitler, on his own initiative, would not have hit upon this idea either, because, generally speaking, such tasks were only handed over to one man, according to the so-called Fuehrer principle. Might I remind you in this connection of the General Plenipotentiary for Labor? There was only one man on that occasion too.\nQFrom whom did the Central Planning Board nave instructions?\nADirectly from Hitler.\nQThrough which channels were they given?\nASpeer was with Hitler practically every week, for tne reason of army supplies, or other questions, sometimes staying with Hitler for several days. On such occasions hitler would mention his most important problems. For instance, he would mention the sequence of priorities of the various armament branches, which I explained to you yesterday.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2270, "page_number": "1811", "date": "13 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-13", "text": "Quite automatically, through this, the approximate priority ratings were laid down. However, within the individual spheres, because of the events of the war, there were current changes: At one moment one type of tank, and then at another moment another type of tank; or first one type of gun, and then another type of gun would be more important. That, of course, necessitated considerable rapid changes in the allotment of raw materials. That was the case, and to an even stronger degree, in the case of ammunitions, so that currently, probably during every such conference which took place in his office, Hitler used to express special wishes, which of course meant orders for us.\nI personally took part in such conferences on nine occasions. Occasionally Speer would take me along to have me appear on the stage there, as he would put it. However, that ceased almost completely during the last years. Anyway, I know for certain, according to my documents, that I was there nine times.\nLet me add at this point that State Secretary Koerner has never been there. Speer did not think that it was necessary for him to be taken along, and Koerner would not impose his presence either.\nQSo that during such an order group of the Central Planning Board, Koerner was never there?\nANo, he was not there, and he did not know about it either. He didn't know, therefore, how strongly Hitler inter fered in this sphere by giving orders.\nQBut didn't you always report to him, either you or Speer, in the case of the meetings of Central Planning?\nAIt might have come as an aside during the meetings; one of us might have said, usually speer, \"Hitler has given this or that order,\" but that wasn't anything very noticeable to Koerner.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2271, "page_number": "1812", "date": "13 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-13", "text": "QWas it only because of the Central Planning Board that Speer went to see Hitler?\nANo; that was one very small portion of all the other discussions, because Hitler was interested, to an extraordinary degree, in army armament, and even right down to the most minute detail. He himself decided, on his own initiative, the thickness of armor on armored fighting vehicles he decided upon the caliber and type of gun which should be fitted to tanks; he decided the thickness and the caliber of anti-tank defensive armor; he himself laid down, personally, the supply rate of ammunition for every type of gun. I had an awful lot of difficulty with him over anti-aircraft ammunition in that connection, since Hitler would never depart, during that time, from anything which he had once laid down. He had changed a groat deal from his pre-war days.\nQWe shall come to speak about that at some other point.\nWitness, a business statute of the Central Planning Board is available, dated 20 October 1942. I shall put this to you.\nDR. BERGOLD:Your Honors, this is documentR-124, Exhibit No. 48-A. It is contained in the German document book of the Prosecution, No. 3-B. On one occasion, during the examination of the witness Koerner, it has already played its part.\nBY DR. BERGOLD:\nQWitness, have you found it?\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:It is document book 3-B, at pages 2 and 3.\nBY DR. BERGOLD:\nQWitness, you can see that there is a letter from a Mr. Schieber, which is attached to the Statute of the Central Planning Board, and which is dated 20 October 1942, which, according to your notes, must have been signed.", "speakers": [ "JUDGE MUSMANNO", "A", "DR. BERGOLD", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2272, "page_number": "1813", "date": "13 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-13", "text": "Will you please define your attitude towards the question as to whether you know this statute and whether you have signed it?\nTHE PRESIDENT:Dr. Bergold, documentR-124comprises a whole volume. What page are you referring to? Perhaps Mr. Denney can tell us.\nMR. DENNEY:Pages 2 and 5 of document book 3-B, Your Honor.\nBY DR. BERGOLD:\nQWitness, will you continue?\nAThis statute was compiled by the armament industry in a one-sided manner. It did not come before me, nor did I sign it. The date appears to me to be peculiar, since Central Planning had been created at the end of march. And now on the 30th of October, we are faced with a statute; all this, of course, in 1942.\nQWitness, aren't you mistaken? Isn't it the 20th?\nAWell, on one occasion it says \"30\". It says the 20th at the beginning, and then on one occasion, at the back it says the 30th. Perhaps it is supposed to be the 20th; probably it is a misprint.\nActually, what is correct is that the Central Planning Board had decided that it would not have any personnel of its own because, contrary to the General Plenipotentiary for Labor, the Central Planning Board did not represent any dependent department. For this reason, and following a suggestion of Speer's, we stated that every one of us would nominate a deputy. I, on my part, always detailed the respective chief of my planning department for this assignment. Speer too chose the chief of his planning department, and Koerner had one of his ministerial counsellors whom he detailed for that.", "speakers": [ "A", "MR. DENNEY", "THE PRESIDENT", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2273, "page_number": "1814", "date": "13 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-13", "text": "It is wrong, however, that the Central Planning Board had been created by the Fuehrer and the Reich Marshal for the purpose of the unified conduct of the armament and war economy. It had expressly only been created for the distribution of raw materials. It is equally wrong that these representatives, these deputies, had any supervisory authorities regarding decisions, with the exception, of course, of supervising the distribution of raw materials.\nI think that is probably the most important part of what it contains.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2274, "page_number": "1815", "date": "13 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-13", "text": "Q.Thank you; may be that is enough.\nA.May be I might add that under point seven dealing with the assignments, one of the tasks which is mentioned is that of increasing production for the purpose of improving raw material supplies, and also for the purpose of necessary alterations of the distribution. This means a listing of the actual tasks, namely, supply with raw materials and the necessary changes in the distribution, with reference to the distribution. The improvement cf raw material supplies, which is mentioned hero, was not a matter for the Central Planning Board, but a matter for the Armament Ministry, which was responsible for coal and steel production. The Central Planning Board could not by any means, however, interfere in Speer's jurisdiction. Speer would not have tolerated it either.\nQ.Witness, thank you. I am now going to another part of the Document Book 111-B of the Prosecution which was put to you, namely,R-124, the minutes of the first meeting of the Central Planning Board on the 27th of April, 1942. Your Honors, you will find this listed in the index in Book III-A, on the last page of the index; it is the fifth item from the bottom, page 21 and page 22.\nMR. DENNEY:Pages 21 and 22 , your Honor.\nTHE PRESIDENT:What did you say, Mr. Denney?\nMR. DENNEY:Page 21, page 22, Document Book III-B.\nBY DR. BERGOLD:\nQ.Witness, we are here concerned with the records of the first meeting of the Central Planning Board, in which the part of the Central Planning Board Duties are once more defined, and I would like you to make a statement as to whether these minutes are correct, and whether it conforms with the so-called statute which you have just read , or whether it is in contradiction thereof.", "speakers": [ "THE PRESIDENT", "Q.", "A.", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2275, "page_number": "", "date": "13 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-13", "text": "A.First of all I want to say in connection with this that I had never known that the Central Planning Board was mentioned within the four year plan; according to what I had known, it had nothing to do with the four year plan; Goering's authority for the formation of the Central Planning Board, because of the contact I might mention that (previously the four year plan 1815 (a) had distributed raw materials on a high level) it had not been transferred as part of the organization of the four year plan.", "speakers": [ "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2276, "page_number": "1816", "date": "13 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-13", "text": "This was a matter, this was an institution created by Hitler who had by-passed the four year plan and it was only Speer's tactfulness which brought about this conference with Goering. Goering, of course, never once interferred in the question of distributing raw materials; he left that entirely to Hitler. He would only have landed in a controversy with Hitler if he had done so. Speer, on the other hand, did mention this during that meeting, namely, that the Central Planning Board had the task of leading, that is to say, it wasn't going to deal with the details of the plan since special institutions were in existence for that purpose everywhere. For instance, it wasn't going to distribute orders to iron or steel concerns, let's say iron; it is only going to be done for the entire steel industry, and that is how you must understand the statement contained on page 2, under Roman numeral II, and the letter \"c\" for Charlie. The industry producing iron will be unified in the Reich. This wasn't by any means instructions coming from the Central Planning Hoard; this was an order from the Armament Ministry. This is merely mentioned there, here, because I don't know who prepared these minutes, but probably a certain Mr. Steffler, but I don't know his name; I don't know that name. It might be the Minister's counsel, Hermann, whose name is mentioned here; he was coal representative at the time; that is the type of representatives which I have said we all had.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Will you ask the witness whether he was present at this meeting?\nDR.BERGoLD: Yes, I shall ask him.\nQ.Were you present -- at this meeting?\nA.Yes.\nQ.Witness, it is your opinion that even this first record of the Central Planning Board meeting is inexact and does not correspond with the true discussions which took place.\nA.May I state quite basically in connection with this that I hardly ever had my deputy with me when I went to the meetings; no had a- lot of other assignments and these meetings went on for several hours.", "speakers": [ "DR.", "Q.", "A.", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2277, "page_number": "1817", "date": "13 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-13", "text": "Koerner's deputy, the representative whom he brought along, always kept the minutes in the sense of observing Koerner's meaning. Sometimes I did read through these brief minutes, and I might say that I pointed out to Koerner and Speer that facts always seemed altered considerably, but all three of us used to laugh about consider it, and with a flick of the wrist we used to it quite unimportant to have these minutes altered afterwards because all of these minutes appeared of no importance whatsoever. What was important were decisions of the Central Planning Board, and they were taken down most exactly, and they contained to my knowledge only contingencies of raw materials such as we had distributed in the proportion of two large forms on the left side the armament, on the right side the civilian consumers. By means of the four year plan, which was previously mentioned, the Armament Industry was to limit civilian consumers and that distribution of non-metal materials and non-ferreous metal, or building materials also came in this sphere. This was all assigned by us, and it was always our own signature which was affixed to it every three months because, generally speaking, they went out every three months, so that those brief minutes which are taken, some small official, ministry of counsel, or whatever the matter may be, would always see to it in the first place that the reputation of his shop wouldn't be damaged. Apart from that, these men were not informed about our real intentions and purposes.\nQ.Witness, on this occasion we might touch upon the value or lack of value of the so-called verbal minutes, now that we have come to this subject, don't you think.", "speakers": [ "Q." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2278, "page_number": "", "date": "13 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-13", "text": "These verbal minutes, which are very comprehensive, very voluminous, even with reference to one meeting, the whole volume it seems. Were they examined?\nA.No, that wasn't possible. I might have examined one or the other minutes at the beginning, and I did on one occasion try to make improvements, but I found that it contained so many mistakes that at the time of reading and improving them would have amounted to fifty per cent more time than the actual meeting. These meetings often went on four or more hours or so, and I really did not have the time to sit down for something like six hours afterwards in order to put this right. I know that there wasn't any one who 1817(a) read through them, and I didn't really know why these records, these verbatim records, were prepared.", "speakers": [ "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2279, "page_number": "1818", "date": "13 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-13", "text": "I thought perhaps it was a question of supervision for us, and I had no cause to state I an not going to allow myself to be supervised. If you went to the pains of having one stenographer who would do nothing but write, but who was stumped by the fact that we sometimes spoke too quickly or not too clearly; that stenographer often sat far away from the man who was speaking, or the stenographer didn't know the name of the man who was speaking, and there was a lot of muddle in that respect. He didn't know whether the man who was sitting on the left was talking or his neighbor on the right, and one mistake after another occurred. I gave it up pretty quickly after looking through these minutes. I once asked the others whether they were reading the minutes through and they just laughed at mo, and said that they had more and better jobs on hand, and I said so have I.\nQ.Witness, you have just said that these stenographers who sat on the side could quite often not even distinguish between the speaker, whether it was he or his neighbor. What was the custom; did you remain seated while you were speaking, or did one always rise?\nA.No, no, we all stayed seated; we all remained seated and the stenographer couldn't always see who was speaking because on certain occasions a lot of people were there. If you invited one man to a meeting in Germany, then possibly he always brought his entire staff along so that he could answer all the questions; and if you invited one, sometimes fifteen or twenty shewed up. I sometimes asked whether these men didn't have anything else to do because we were not really concerned with details, only with the basic, larger points, and they used to say, well, everybody is invited.\nQ.Witness, did it happen that specific orders were given to stenographers for them to alter certain points or omit them? So that apart from accidental mistakes, deliberate mistakes were being made?\nA. I have recollections of many occasions that Speer, who used to sit next to me, would shout to the stenographer across the room and say \"leave that out what the Field Marshal just said.\"", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2280, "page_number": "1819", "date": "13 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-13", "text": "Unfortunately, this is notorious before this Tribunal the expressions and words I used, which were not always too carefully chosen. I always have said during my entire life what came to my mind at that moment, and I, as a soldier, was never taught to hide my opinion. But sometimes, in order to refreshen sometimes boring meetings, I used rather forceful language to shake up the others a bit so that they would at last come out with their true opinions, because many of the people were only there as experts on individual points, and had perhaps too much respect for us. Quite often ministers were there; even in Germany a minister and a Field Marshal have a fairly high ranking position; and the German is rather more inclined to show too much respect than too little. Now, if they found that I too would use strong expressions on one occasion, or another, then they would loosen up a bit and they would start talking, and they would feel then that I can let go too. I was keen to have clarity, and that the cat wouldn't always run around the hot porridge, because, after all, we had to know the truth and the real background.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2281, "page_number": "1820", "date": "13 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-13", "text": "Since Speer was much more cautions and much more courteous, never having been a soldier, I could allow myself the exhibition of freedom, and unfortunately I did.\nQ.Yes, unfortunately. So that statements of that kind of yours were either razed or they were altered?\nA.They were only razed, or shall we say that opinion of Speer's only came into force if I stated my criticism of the higher leaders too severely. If, for instance, somewhere Hitler had given assignments or orders which, to my view, were wrong, or even coming from Goering or other people, the minister of the Interior or the minister of the Police or some other person, then I even here would state my frank criticism amongst these people. Usually I didn't have any other possibility to state my deviating opinion, and I had the inner urge, when I was deviating, to say it out aloud. Speer, in my interests, had this struck out, and he told me a few times afterward, \"For heaven's sake, do be careful. They will hang you one day.\" But of course he was referring to the German source. Sometimes when I myself became aware of the fact that in my criticism of these high ranking gentlemen I had gone too far, I would say to this man, \"Leave that out.\" And on one or two or three occasions I said, \"Change it. Put some one else in there as having been referred to,\" because I myself discovered -- mind you, I wasn't always aware that I criticized too severely, but since Speer told me so a few times, I controlled myself a little more. I discovered that I had said too much and that was a mistake, and so I intervened myself.\nQ.That is enough. Witness, I shall now put before you with reference to the Central Planning Board one other decree from Document book 2-A, No. 150, Exh. 58. Document Book 2-A, Document No. 150, Exh. No. 58.\nMR. DENNEY:It is on page 32 of Book 2-A.\nBY DR. BERGOLD:", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2282, "page_number": "1821", "date": "13 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-13", "text": "Q.Witness, this document is listed in the index by the Prosecution as the founding decree for the Central Planning Board, is that correct, or what does this document represent?\nA.That has nothing to do with the Central Planning Board.\nMR. DENNEY:At the time that exhibit was offered we made a correction on the record and said that it referred to the Central Planning Office, not to the Central Planning Board, and if Your Honors wish, I can bring in the page in the record and show where it appears. We called it to Dr. Bergold's attention at the time.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Dr. Bergold didn't hear your comment, Mr. Denney.\nMR. DENNEY:That is in the record, and you know it. I spoke to you about it prior to the time I made the correction, and there is no sense in misleading the Court.\nTHE WITNESS:So we are concerned with the Planning Department of the Armament Ministry. The word \"Planning\" crops up everywhere and might be the cause of such misunderstanding. I should never the less like to draw your attention to one matter in this connection on Page 6. We are here concerned with Speer's entire ministry and its organization, not only the Planning Department. And on Page 6 under \"Technical Department\" it says the head of Army Defense Districts. And under the following number the reference is to the Armament Supply Department, and the leaders of the armament trustees. Therefore witnesses, including Gen. Vorwald, have drawn your attention to the fact that the entire leadership of the armament industry out in the country -- of the armament business out in the country right from the beginning was in Speer's hands, and that includes the sphere of air armament. Later on in this same document there is a reference to the tasks which those armament commissioner and armament trustees had. That shows clearly that the entire organization of the armament business, both in the military as well the civilian field -- and I mean in this connection military organizations such as the Armament inspectorate as well as civilian March-13-M-4-3-HD-Feldt (Frank-JP sources -- that all that was entirely under Speer.", "speakers": [ "THE WITNESS", "Q.", "A.", "THE PRESIDENT", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2283, "page_number": "1822", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "The organizations in the industrial firms, too, namely, the so-called rings and chief committees, even the chief committees and rings for the production of aircraft, aircraft engines, and instruments were under Speer, so that the final equipment of the airforce which has always been mentioned up to then to the effect that it was in the hands of tne air ministry had, right from the beginning, been subject to that restriction.\nBY DR. BERGOLD:\nQ.But something appears in this document with reference to this Planning Bureau -- Planning Department. Speer has given testimony to the effect that this Planning Office under President Kohl did have some dealings with the Central Planning Board.\nA.Yes.\nQ.To what extent did this happen, and were these connections to the Central Planning Board the only sphere of work of this Planning Office under President Kehl?\nA.May I perhaps add in connection with this that Speer had a planning office in his Armament Ministry; the GL had the same in his Air ministry. The Central Planning Board, however, had no personnel of its own. And Speer had said, as far as I am concerned, the chief of my planning office Kehl will also become my representative on the Central Planning Board. I had the corresponding man in my planning office and I, too, detailed him to be my representative. Now then, Speer had suggested that the meetings, since they would have to be prepared, would entail the sending out of invitations. There would have to be an order or a program for the meetings, and for these purposes all these gentlemen jointly were to have President Kehl make such preparations. That means that apart from his assignment in the Armament Ministry, President Kehl would also have a small auxilliary assignment on behalf of the Central Planning Board.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "BY DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2284, "page_number": "1823", "date": "13 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-13", "text": "If you were to subdivide this work approximately according to its volume, then Kehl would work for the Armament Ministry 99% of his time and just loss than 1% of his time would be devoted to the Central Planning Board.\nQ.Thank you. Witness, this document No. 1510PS contains, at the end of the document, a decree dated September 16, 1943, which deals exclusively with this planning office. Five main points are referred to. The first begins with the statement that the Planning Office would prepare the decisions to be made by the Central Planning Board, and under this large heading I there follow seven further subparagraphs numbered 1 to 7. Let me put this before you once again and will you tell me whether the reference made under 1 deals exclusively with tasks of the Central Manning Board such as this Central Planning Office was meant to prepare.", "speakers": [ "Q." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2285, "page_number": "1824", "date": "13 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-13", "text": "AWe are here concerned with tasks of theArmament Ministry and the Central Planning Board having got mixed up.\nQWould you concern yourself with paragraphs 1 to 7? In these paragraphs the Arabic figures 1 to 7--a number of tasks are dealt with.\nAYes; figure 1, the preparation of meetings, of decisions of the Central Planning Board. That is all right; that had been arranged. And this, most of all, the distribution of basic war materials: coal, mineral oils, and such materials. That is all right. But it says, of course, \"preparation\" because the actual distribution was carried out by the Central Planning Board.\nThen, under Figure 3, there is the Planning Office, and it states, 'for the entire war economy, production, and distribution a plan was to be made.\" This had nothing to do with the Central Planning Board, nor did it ever take place in the Central Planning Board. It was sent entirely a task for the Armament Industry.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Dr. Bergold, I think we are wasting time here. Mr. Denney has conceded that this has no reference to the Central Planning Board, but only to the Central Planning Office of the Armament Industry.\nMR. DENNEY:No, Your Honor; I said that the index where it says \"decree establishing the Central Planning Board\" should change to read, \"decree establishing the Central Planning Office.\" Now, as this office is concerned with the Central Planning Board, we certainly maintain that it has a bearing. The only point that I wish to make at the time the document was offered was the fact that it was improperly listed in the index, as is obvious from the date, 1943. It was carried as a decree establishing the Central Planning Board. The Board was founded several months prior to this time, and we don't for a moment withdraw out contention that the Planning Office was concerned with the Central Planning Board.", "speakers": [ "A", "MR. DENNEY", "THE PRESIDENT", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2286, "page_number": "1825", "date": "13 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-13", "text": "THE PRESIDENT:Well, you do concede however that this is not a decree establishing the Central Planning Board? That is obvious.\nMR. DENNEY:Yes.\nTHE PRESIDENT:But you do claim it has some reference to the Central Planning Board.\nMR. DENNEY:Certainly, your Honor.\nBY DR. BERGOLD (Counsel for the defendant, Erhard Milch):\nQWitness, please, will you continue? This is a technical, a legal discussion.\nAWell, I would like to say that this entire publication is only concerned with Speer's task in his capacity of general plenipotentiary of armament problems in the Four Year Plan. This assignment of the general plenipotentiary shares work on Speer's part in his capacity as Armament Minister, has nothing whatever to do with the Central Planning Board. It was a special affair which he had Goering give him the order for. And he says in fact in the document that the Reichmarshal had come to him, Speer, as a man of the Four Year Plan, and had created a planning office. In other words, this plan ning office has now got a third task:\nOne, it is the Armament Ministry.\nSecondly, it had to deal with the preparations for the meetings of the Central Planning Board. That is, when Speer created his working staff for this task. And then, in September 1943, it received an additional task on behalf of the general plenipotentiary of the Four Year Plan for armament questions.\nQWill you go on, please.", "speakers": [ "A", "MR. DENNEY", "THE PRESIDENT", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2287, "page_number": "1826", "date": "13 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-13", "text": "A.Consequently, there are three tasks here which seem to get mixed up. If any staff had put a thing like this before me, then the gentleman--including his piece of paper--would have sailed through the door. It is the climax of lack of clarity of the bureaucrat and everything being muddled up. So, I would like to repeat:\nPoint 1 is okay.\nPoint 2 is all right, also.\nPoint 3 has nothing whatever to do with the Central Planning Board but deals with tasks of the Four Year Plan, the plenipotentiary for armament tasks. And I, of course, never had much to do with such armament work.\nPoint 4. No connection with the Central Planning Board, and deals with questions handled by the Armament Ministry.\nPoint 5 has no connections with the Central Planning Board.\nPoint 6. No connections with the Central Planning Board. These are questions of exports and imports, and the Central Planning Board had only one contact with export and import questions; namely, that certain raw materials were partly being exported. For instance, Sweden received coal from us; and Switzerland received coal and steel, and if we were making distributions, then these requirements for exports of raw materials had also to be taken into consideration. Therefore, otherwise apart from that, we had nothing to do with exports, etc. The question, for instance: Which imports were important for war economy was something that only interested the Central Planning Board to the extent that ores and bauxite were being imported from foreign countries. And, even there it only touched us, since it was mostly a matter for the Armament Ministry, and all we wanted to know was whether enough bauxite and enough ore was being imported since a certain number of months afterwards we had to distribute steel and aluminum.", "speakers": [ "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2288, "page_number": "1827", "date": "13 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-13", "text": "The way we saw our tasks in the Central Planning Board was that we weren't going to meet every three months like newly born babes, and then would have the permission given to us how much raw material there was available and then would say, \"Well, too bad we haven't got any more. Let's dish this stuff out.\" We were always making efforts to apply pressure to it that raw materials, too, such as were to be distributed under our program, would really be in existence. If we hadn't carried out that part of our work, then we would certainly only have had seventy per cent of the amount of the steel which we would actually have managed to distribute.\nPoint 7 has no connections with the Central Planning Board. It is purely a matter for the Armament Ministry and the armament tasks of the Four Year Plan. This thing was never brought to the knowledge of the Central Planning Board either, to the best of my knowledge. It was only here in the room that I saw this document for the first time; namely, when the prosecution presented it.\nQBut under (Point) 4, with reference to which you just said that it had no connections with the Central Planning Board, this document states as follows: \"The Planning Office is responsible for the allocation of all labor in the Greater Germany and its sphere of jurisdiction to the individual large main sectors of civilian war economy traffic; food, supplies, and so on and so forth, and will submit this to the Central Planning Board for its decision and it will also statistically deal with its carrying out.\"\nAThe only thing that is correct in connection with this is that I know that Speer's Planning Office also kept statistics or had a certain amount of statistics dealing with workers--if I am properly informed. And, of course, I don't know the details of Speer's organization.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2289, "page_number": "1828", "date": "13 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-13", "text": "Then these statistics in Speer's office were being compiled by the Armament Department, the highest department in the Armament Inspectorate. And Mr. Kehl used to have them supply him with the statistics documents. On one occasion or another, this question was discussed by the Central Planning Board; and, particularly if the question was to be ascertained whether the raw-material-producing industries did have the workers as Sauckel asserted, or whether they did not have them, as was stated by the industry themselves. Apart from this, everything which is contained in this paragraph was never carried through because the only occasion when tables about workers were submitted to the meeting of the Central Planning Board were concerned, we were concerned with tables which Sauckel had filled with his figures. And there we were concerned with utterly different purposes than those mentioned here; namely, this being the 53rd meeting of the Central Planning Board on the 16th of February, 1944, and about that, of course, we shall probably talk at the proper point, and it will be then that I shall explain to you what that meeting on that date was aiming at. It had nothing whatever to do with the task that is being laid down here. And, apart from that, Speer's Planning Office never brought this task to the knowledge of the Central Planning Board.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2290, "page_number": "1829", "date": "13 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-13", "text": "Q.Witness, you are saying that you didn't notice it. This would mean that you never approved this.\nA.No, because it never had anything to do with me. It is a purely internal instruction in the Armament Ministry, and I am convinced that Speer did not read it either, even if he did sign it, because Speer would not have affixed his name to such a muddle.\nQ.Witness, was Speer in his capacity as Reich Minister for Armament and War Production at all in the position to create a decree for the Central Planning Board, anything which would have been binding upon the Central Planning Beard.\nA.He, he could not have done that. Occasionally - and I know of several instances; sometimes he would tell me and sometimes he would forget it -- Speer did issue some decrees. I knew that his ministry was particularly keen on publishing decrees. There were too many clever men there, and they had to issue many decrees. Maybe there were too many exports there, too and the lot of them always wanted to publish some decree each -- something which I never was interested in my sphere. I think I have never issued a decree. At any rate, insofar as these decrees touched upon the sphere of influence of the Central Planning Board, Speer alone used to sign these decrees, and he did not consider it necessary to inform us on the subject. You must consider that he too was terribly overburdened with work. Occasionally he said also to write Milch's and Koerner's name at the bottom, and this applies to the work regarding the Central Planning Board. It was put neither before me nor Koerner, as far as we know. Speer was a little generous in that respect, I would not have had any objections if he had told me, \"I put your name at the bottom too, \"but it is all right\" because alter all, he had to know that.\"\nQ.Well, maybe you did not quite understand my question. Was Speer in a position to publish decrees which would give tasks to the Central Planning Board which it did not originally have?\nA.He, he could not.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2291, "page_number": "", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "Q.So he did not have authority to give instructions dealing with the type of work of the Central Planning Board?\nA.No, he could not. For, if the Central Planning Beard had been properly formed 1829 A organically speaking, then a Hitler decree would have been necessary.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2292, "page_number": "1830", "date": "13 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-13", "text": "I might remind you that we have such a decree for the Four Year Plan, for the Plenipotentiary for Labor, and for similar institutions. As far as the Central Flaming Board was concerned, something like that was never planned. It was merely a matter that was passed on by hearsay.\nSpeer sometimes interpreted such things the way it happened to suit him in other words, in his capacity as Armament Minister. As is understandable that Speer often struggled to extend his powers. I said yesterday that maybe it is easier to work if you make all the decisions then if you have to ask too many other people, and possibly Speer, as I have now seen--certainly he had not tell me so earlier--had once again in connection with the Central Planning Board put out feelers looking for the possibility to expand.\nQ.From what points of view were raw materials distributed?\nA.I can answer briefly by stating that Hitler had laid down the order of priority and at the some time had given orders dealing with individual points. For instance, it was very often said in that in this month the Navy would get 20,000 tons of steel of a certain type in addition to their allocation. Those were the rules which applied to us in the Central planning Board.\nApart from that, we were in touch with all the large priority holders, that is why there are these passages on material in the minutes of the meetings. We had them give us the justification for their requirements. It was our very difficult task to deny everybody a little of everything, because total demands were always much higher than the amounts we had. We could not just simply say, \"We are going to deprive everybody of 20 per cent.\" We had to introduce the finer touch. We could not take as much array from the army industry as we could take away from others, but, on the other hand, we could not leave the agriculturalists without steel. We also had to set assignments of certain number of nails or screws for the civilian population. To subdivide this was a matter which was impossible to carry out without knowing the interests of the parties, and when we had their views we would then carry through our tasks and distribute.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2293, "page_number": "", "date": "13 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-13", "text": "Q.Witness -\nTHE PRESIDENT:Dr. Bergold, we will take a recess at this time\nTHE MARSHALL:This Tribunal is in recess for fifteen minutes.\n(A recess was taken.)\n1830 A", "speakers": [ "Q.", "THE MARSHALL", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2294, "page_number": "1831", "date": "13 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-13", "text": "THE MARSHAL:Tribunal No. 2 is again in session.\nQ. (By Dr. Bergold) Witness, after having discussed, rather, in connection with the decree concerning the Central Planning Board, while we have discussed the labor situation, I want you to answer my question now, this and what powers the Central Planning Board had with reference to the plenipotentiary general for labor, Sauckel?\nA.The Central Planning Board had no power of issuing orders to Sauckel.\nQ.Who was it that gave Sauckel's orders?\nA.Sauckel's office had been formed by Hitler's decree. However, after that it was taken into the four-year plan so that formally speaking Sauckel was under Goering immediately. However, he received his orders from Hitler himself.\nQ.As you said, the Central Planning, had no powers toward Sauckel?\nA.None whatsoever.\nQ.However, don't you know that Speer tried to win influence over Sauckel. Did that occur in his capacity as a member of the Central Planning Board, or did that occur in his capacity as Armament Minister?\nA.It only occurred in his capacity as Armament Minister.\nQ.Can you tell us something about the struggle between Speer and Sauckel, or Sauckel's struggle with Speer? Can you give me some more details about that matter?\nA.I only know very little about these questions. I know that Speer himself took himself or reserved himself the right, with respect to the laborers brought by Sauckel, to distribute these laborers, that meant to distribute them to the central industry branches. Sauckel with respect to that stated, and it was his power to do so, that he was the one who had the right to distribute these single laborers to these single factories or branches of industry. Speer also brought his wishes to the Fuehrer's attention, and conferences took place between Speer and Sauckel and Hitler. However, Speer did not got through with his ideas because Hitler's view of Sauckel's position was that he should support it.", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "A.", "Q." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2295, "page_number": "1832", "date": "13 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-13", "text": "I know that from what Speer told me.\nQWitness, do you know the decree of Hitler of the 30th September 1942, concerning the Plenipotentiary General for Labor assignment?\nDR. BERGOLD:Your Honors. This is Document No. 1903, Exhibit No. 17, from Document Book No. 1-A of the prosecution.\nAYes, I know the contents of this decree. However, at the time I did not receive a copy, at least in my office didn't. However, I knew his tasks, and I knew that he was his own boss in this field.\nQWitness, how did you explain to yourself this decree at that time? It says here for the execution of this task, in order to carry out the task they are entitled to issue directives to competent military authorities in charge of the labor mobilization and wage policy.\nAI considered this a far-going measure, too far-going measure which was contradictional with the administration of the German policy at the time, because prior to that it was absolutely impossible that a civilian organization could issue orders to a military organization.\nQ.What power was given to Sauckel by such a decree, was he depending on someone apart from Hitler?\nANo, he was his own boss, but he depended only on Hitler and on Goering pro forma, but only pro forma. At the time that he wanted to relieve the Field Marshal in this position, one should not have the impression that someone was going over Goering's head, but Goering had the impression already that something was going over his head, and he took care not to speak in those questions because otherwise he would have had a struggle or a fight with Hitler. This also applies especially to Sauckel's case.\nQIf here the chief of the OKW signed, namely Keitel, would that mean that this power, Sauckel's powers to military positions, applied to all other divisions, also to the Luftwaffe?\nAOf course, it was, otherwise Keitel's signature as OKW would not have been affixed underneath this document. Hitler was he only one, generally speaking, who signed these things, but only in special cases where he wanted to stress the point for a special field as in this per ticular case with the military field, the higher man also had to sign with him.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q.", "DR. BERGOLD", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2296, "page_number": "1833", "date": "13 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-13", "text": "It is a sign that in this order by Hitler, Hitler wanted to put a special stress on the point that the military organization offices were under Sauckel's orders in this particular case. It was something entirely now, and so new that Hitler wanted Keitel's signature underneath his.\nQ. Thank you.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2297, "page_number": "1834", "date": "13 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-13", "text": "Q.Witness,I shall come now to the documents which the prosecution has introduced, namely, in the document books I-A, 2-B, 2-A and B. Prosecution has introduced Document Number 1375-PS, Exhibit Number 4-A, in Document Book Number I-4. This is a telephone call of Frank who was the Governor General for Poland; namely, a phone call from Frank to Goering on 25 January 1940. This is a letter of 25 January 1940 and concerns the directives concerning the exploitation of the polish workers; namely, for the preparation and transportation of at least one million Polish workers for the Reich. Do you know this decree and this pact between Frank and Goering? Do you know anything about them?\n4. This is the first time I heard about it. At this trial.\nQ.I shall proceed now to Document Number 2233-PS, Exhibit Number 4-A. At the same time I can take care of Exhibit Number 4-B, which is Document Number 2233-PS-B. Witness, those are extracts from Frank's diary or a record of the meeting of department chiefs. Do you know anything about these discussions or anything about this diary?\n4. Not until these trials started.\nQ.I shall go over to Document Number 1352-PS, Exhibit Number 5 of 16 May and 29 May 1940. This is a report concerning the confiscation of Polish agricultural enterprises, signed by Kusche. Do you know anything about that?\nA.Not until I came to these trials.\nQ.The next document Number isEC-68, Exhibit Number 6, on Page. 19, your Honors, from 6 March 1941. This is a confidential letter of the Minister for Finance and Economy of Baden and it contains directives on the treatment of Polish farm workers of Polish nationality. Do you know anything about this decree or these directives?\nA.Not until I came to these trials.\nQ.The next document, 3044-PS-B, Exhibit Number 6-A. Those are directives and instructions concerning the treatment of Eastern househole workers. Did you ever know anything about that?\nA No.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2298, "page_number": "1835", "date": "13 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-13", "text": "Q.Did you ever have any servants, any Eastern servants, at home?\nA.No.\nQ.Document 3005-PS, Exhibit Number 7, from 26 August 1941. This concerns a letter of the Reich Minister of Labor to the Presidents of Regional Labor Offices concerning the use of Russian PW's. Do you know anything about this directive of the Reich Minister of Labor?\nA.Not until I came to the trials.\nQ.The Document NumberEC-104, Exhibit Number 8, of 31 October 1941. This is a secret memorandum of Keitel concerning the use of prisoners of war in war industry. Did you ever hear anything about that decree? It came from the Chief of the OKW, of the Command of the Armed Forces of the Wehrmacht.\nA.Until these trials, no.\nQ.Don't you think, such a decree should have been sent to you?\nA.I know nothing about the context for the time being.\nQ.I shall submit this decree to you, and I want you to read the distribution on the back of the document, and I want you to tell me if any office which was under your control is mentioned there.\nA.No, no agency under my command is mentioned here. It only went to the Quartermaster General, because it is also here the question of work concerning the Wehrmacht; that is, clearing up work in the East. It is also clear that the GL has nothing to do with it because it says here that for the Arbeitseinsatz the following may be considered: For example, the Wehrmacht as one and number two, the Reich Minister for Armament and Ammunition. He is a man who came before the Armament Minister. The name was mixed up. And as third is mentioned the Reich Minister of Labor. The GL even in his industry had nothing to do with labor assignment questions.\nQ.Was the Quartermaster General of the Luftwaffe under your orders?\nA.No. He was directly under the Chief of the General Staff. Quartermaster General is not G. L.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Dr. Bergold, on the distribution list at the end of this document, the fourth line, what does that report refer to, L/General?\nDR. BERGOLD:That means Commander in Chief of the Luftwaffe, Quartermaster General.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2299, "page_number": "1836", "date": "13 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-13", "text": "Gen. Qu. means Quartermaster General.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Who was that?\nQ. (By Dr. Bergold) Who was that?\nA.The Quartermaster at the time was General von Seidel. He was immediately under the Chief of the General Staff, and he again was under Goering's orders.\nQ.In other words, the GL had nothing to do with that?\nA.No, nothing whatsoever.\nQ.Did the Inspector General - because you were Inspector General at the time, weren't you?\nA.Yes.\nQ.Did the Inspector General have anything to do with that?\nA.No, nothing whatsoever.\nQ.In other words, they were two entirely different offices?\nA.Yes, indeed.\nQ.What you said yesterday applies to these offices; namely, that they ran parallel to each other but had nothing to do with each other?\nA.Yes, that is quite correct. They were entirely different fields of task. The Inspector General was, as can be clearly seen from his name, the Inspector General for the troops. He had no power of issuing orders to the troops because the Commander in Chief was in charge of that. He just inspected the troops and wanted to investigate their general situation; namely, with regard to everything concerning the troops.\nEXAMINATION BY THE PRESIDENT:\nQ.What official position did you hold on October 31, 1941, witness?\nA.I was Inspector General.\nQ.At that time you had no connection with the Luftwaffe?\nA.The Inspector General - I was the Inspector General of the Luftwaffe; that is, I inspected the troops of the Luftwaffe, and only of the Luftwaffe.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2300, "page_number": "1837", "date": "13 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-13", "text": "Q.But you had not yet taken up your task as deputy to Goering?\nA.I was never a full deputy of Goering since 1937.\nQ.Was Inspector General the only post that you held on October 31, 1941?\nA.Yes, indeed. Only toward the end of November I became GL. I can add one things. I was State Secretary on top of that.\nQ. (By Dr. Bergold) Did the State Secretary, however, have anything to do with the Luftwaffe?\nTEE PRESIDENT:No, we understand that.\nQ. (By the President) You became GL at the end of November 1941?\nA.Yes.\nQ. (By Dr. Bergold) Witness, from all these documents which are up to the 7th of November, 1941, did your office of Inspector General have anything to do with the labor assignment?\nA.No, nothing whatsoever.\nQ.Witness, you visited troops very often and inspected them. Did you see their general situation in Poland, the situation which prevailed there with respect to laborers?\nA.I was in Poland just during the Polish campaign. That is all because during the war I carried out the inspections only at the front, and only with a very few exceptions at home; namely, in German itself. Therefore, I knew nothing about the situation concerning the workers, and I saw nothing, and apart from that, this field of task did not belong to the field of task of the Inspector General.\nQ.Witness, I shall now come to Document Number 3040-PS, Exhibit Number 10. This is a secret decree and secret orders of Himmler concerning the commitment of manpower from the East. Do you know this secret decree or these secret orders of Himmler and were they brought to your attention?\nA.Not until these trials.\nQ.Document Number 1435-PS, Exhibit Number 11. This document contains a speech by Speer which he held on 24 February 1942 to the Gau leiters, concerning the legacy of the party member Todt.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "TEE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2301, "page_number": "1838", "date": "13 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-13", "text": "Did you know anything about that? Did Speer give it to you or show it to you?\nA.No. All I knew was the fact that he had held a speech there but I did not know the contents of the speech.", "speakers": [ "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2302, "page_number": "1839", "date": "13 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-13", "text": "Q.Document D-316, Exhibit Number 12, on Page 38, is a memorandum of a certain Huper of the 14th of March 1942, concerning the employment of Russians with the firm of Krupp. Did you know this memorandum in your capacity as GL, or in any other capacity did you over see this document, and was it ever brought to your knowledge?\nA.Not up until these trials.\nQ.Witness, did the air armament industry have any contact or contacts with the Krupp firm?\nA.I believe that there were orders for our engine groups. What I mean is that our ministries had nothing to do with it.\nQ.In other words, Krupp did not belong to the air armament industry as such?\nA.No.\nQ.The Document Number 016-PS, Exhibit Number 13, on the 20th of April 1942, contains Sauckel's program for labor assignment. Was this program submitted to you in your capacity of GL or to the Central Planning, or did you ever hear anything else about that in any other of your capacities?\nA.No.\nQ.Did you know anything at all, and were these Sauckel decrees ever submitted to you, generally speaking?\nA.No, they were never brought to my knowledge.\nQ.Such decrees may appear in certain law publications of the Ministry. How was it in the Luftwaffe, was there a law booklet and then others concerning questions with respect to the Luftwaffe?\nA.Yes, that was only questions concerning Luftwaffe.\nQ.You didn't let me finish my question. How was it in your Ministry? Any agency naturally had decrees appear in some information leaflet. Were they all submitted to you, or did you experts show you only those decrees which had something to do immediately with your own office or the task of your office?\nA.Only the latter, and that only to a very small extent. In certain cases as far as I can remember my office had nothing to do with these decrees.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2303, "page_number": "1840", "date": "13 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-13", "text": "I was never shown these Reichsgesetzblaetter; but we had to know what was in our own information leaflet; and only those things were submitted to me in exceptional cases, an excerpt only, when I absolutely had to know about those things. I believe that the Hitler secrecy order was also applied to this case.\nQ.Witness, DocumentR-129, Exhibit Number 14 of the 30th of April, 1942, on Page 52, concerns a letter of Pohl, who is on trial here in the fourth case, Pohl's letter to Himmler concerning concentration camps. Was this letter here of Pohl's ever brought to your attention and to your knowledge?\nA.Not until those trials.\nQ.Witness, on this occasion I would like to ask you, what then do you know about these concentration camps during the war?\nA.I only knew of two concentration camps, namely, Dachau and Oranienburg. I visited Dachau personally in 1935; in other words, before the war. That was the only time that I had visited a concentration camp, with the exception of now when I was a prisoner of war. What there was inside the concentration camps I do not know. In 1935 there were only Germans in there; and I was very much surprised to learn after the collapse of Germany that there were also foreigners in the concentration camps. I did not know that. I am quite convinced that none of my collaborators knew about those things in the concentration camps. We had been told at the time that in these concentration camps criminals of most various categories were being detained; but what I saw in 1935 were habitual criminals. I thought it a very good idea that these people be not allowed to walk around freely. When we were there these people had to tell us their sentences; and there were several barracks around which were crowded with people, and there the average criminal record was twenty to thirty times, rape of small children. Therefore, I, being a father believe that it was best for these people to be locked up.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2304, "page_number": "1841", "date": "13 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-13", "text": "However, I know that there were also political people there; and I saw them too. There my opinion differed. But I was told that those people were there only on temporary basis and would only be kept in there for a longer period if they actually committed active sabotage against the state. At Dachau most of the political people who were being detained there as prisoners in 1935 were members of the SA, on account of the Roehm-Putsch in 1934, and that was the basis and reason for their being there.\nI should like to add that I asked to be allowed to visit that concentration camp at the time, together with other officers of my arm, in other words, of the Luftwaffe, because during my meetings and conversations with foreigners, I repeatedly heard the statement, particularly from British, \"We understand your Hitler's system very well. There was no other way for you to go. However, we do not understand your concentration camps.\" That is why I decided to get some sort of a picture for myself by seeing the camp. It took a little while; but finally I get the permission to visit the concentration camp. That at the time was my only contact with the question.\nQWhat was your impression of the camp? Was it clean?\nAIn 1935, well, yes, at that time it locked very well. There were good barracks, absolutely waterproof, wooden floors, with two cost, one above the other, like the soldiers. Our old barracks always had the same system one above the other; and I was the only one to get that principle in the Luftwaffe, so that there was quite a revolution amongst the soldiers in the army. I witnessesed one of their meals. There was a good portion of food, meat, vegetable, potatoes, first soup. The people were thus well fed. Of course, they had to work. The work they did was not an easy task. Cleanness was noticeable. The beds had checked sheets. The entertainment of the people was taken care of. There was recreation. They had special, rooms where they could hold speeches. They had facilities for writing and reading. There was an excellent library there which even according to its size and contents was very interesting. I looked through the index one time. The man in charge of the library was a Gruppenfuehrer of the SA and also a concentration camp inmate.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2305, "page_number": "", "date": "13 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-13", "text": "I saw the bakery, saw the butcher shop.\n1841-A At that time I am sure that there were no cruelties and no inhumane equipment of any kind.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2306, "page_number": "1842", "date": "15 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-15", "text": "Of course, I could not speak to these same individuals and ask them how they liked it in here, we were only allowed to stop these people; but the person was allowed only to say what his sentence was.\nQ.Did you see what kind of work these inmates had to carry out?\nAThat was very hard. They worked on their own equipment, I believe, not only for the camp but for all sorts of purposes and for the SS. In other words, they made furniture for themselves and for the Waffen-SS--far instance, cupboards, chairs, stools, tables. They also had a locksmith shop there. As far as I know they did work outside the camp as well.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2307, "page_number": "1843", "date": "15 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-15", "text": "I believe therewere special commands for cutting down trees; there were special commands for splitting stones. However, I cannot go into detail because I carried out this visit one day -- it was in the afternoon after I had an inspection of the troops in Munich, which inspection I got through with about 9:30 in the morning, and at four o'clock in the afternoon I had another inspection to carry out, of the Luftwaffe, and in the meantime I saw the camp. I myself ate or tasted the food which the German inmates had, and I thought it was very tasty, good and sufficient.\nQ.Witness, at a time following that, did you ever hear, even if there were rumors, that inhumane acts were being committed in the concentration camps?\nA. I cannot remember that anything had been mentioned in that had anything to do with the truth or that seemed like the truth. I can confirm the fact that there were quite a few rumors during the war. However, all our efforts to find where these rumors originated were not succesful. We were not able to find out anything at all, I had very few connections with the SS itself.\nQ.I shall come back to the SS later on. Now, witness, however, as witness said, you yourself saw to it that persons in concentrations camps be freed, or would not be sent to the concentration camp. Can one not draw the conclusion from that that you were of the opinion that it was not very good in the concentration camps; that bad things were happening there, because if somebody did something wrong, then he is to be protected to be put in jail?\nA.At the beginning I was of the opinion, or I was quite convinced that these concentration camps were just a temporary measure in appearance. I know from the press that they had done the same thing in Italy with the Mussolini regime, and that then, after a few years, these institutions had been dissolved -- at least that's what I heard at the time -- and, as many things were being imitated here in Germany which Mussolini's Italy had done, I saw in that concentration camp nothing but such an imitation.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2308, "page_number": "", "date": "13 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-13", "text": "That certain abuses would occur there, I could understand, and I knew, because, after all, the National 1843a Socialist movement itself, in its early beginnings, was a revolutionary group, and even if they weren't so, at least that's what people said about the organization.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2309, "page_number": "1844", "date": "13 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-13", "text": "I considered it to be like certain children's diseases. However, if I ever heard, if anything was brought to my own personal attention, then I thought it my humane duty to help. That the parents of somebody who is sent to a concentration camp or something, are always convinced of his innocence can be understood and every one of us knows how they feel today. However, certain other reasons prevailed at the time, wherever the family wrote: that is probably the case with one of the cases which was submitted here as an affidavit, the main reason was not that the man was a Social Democrat Leader. No; he was blamed for other things. And that had to be cleared up. That is why my help took a little bit longer here, and I believe that the man had been rehabilitated. The blames which they made to him, and which came from those two denouncers whom we had at the time had to be refused by bringing counter evidence.\nQ.That's enough, witness. Now such people were taken out of the camp by you. Then I'm sure that they came to see you and thanked you for it?\nA.No; they didn't do that and I did not pay too much attention to that. I told their parents and their relatives to restrain them from doing that. Maybe they wrote a letter though, sometime, but i did not do it in order to get their thanks and appreciation.\nQ.Witness, didn't you over speak to anybody who had been released from a concentration camp and who then would have given you more details about the concentration camp?\nA.I never spoke with anybody who had been released from a concentration camp -- at least, not that I know of.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2310, "page_number": "", "date": "13 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-13", "text": "I never spoke with anybody about his experience in a concentration camp. However, during my captivity, I learned through other prisoners and that no one else was ever supposed to have heard suck a thing either, because these people were not only prohibited from speaking, but they were also so scared that they followed that order to every letter.\n1844a", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2311, "page_number": "1845", "date": "13 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-13", "text": "Q.That's enough on this subject, witness. Now I shall come to three further decrees issued by Sauckel, namely, Document NO.3044-PS, Exhibit A on page 50A, Your Honors, Document No. 2241-PS, Exhibit No. 15, page 64, and Document No. 3044-PS which is Exhibit No. 15-A. These are orders issued by Sauckel of the 7th of May 1942, 20th of July 1942, 22nd of August 1942, and all of them deal with how foreign labor could be recruited, transported, fed and quartered. Do you know these decrees and orders, and directives issued by Sauckel: Were they ever known to you? Were they ever brought to your attention, or does the same thing apply to these, what I said about Document 016-PS, Exhibit No. 13, does your statement apply to these too?\nA.All three of them were not known to me before these trials. The same thing that I said before applies. We had nothing to do with that question.\nQ.Witness, Document No. 654-PS, Exhibit No. 16 on page 67, Your Honors, these are notes notes by Theirach, concerning a conference or discussion with Himmler of the 18th of September 1942, in his field headquarters, concerning the turning over Jews to Himmler for extermination through work, Do you know anything at all about this conference in which also officials of the Justice Minister were present? Did you learn anything about it, and particularly, did../... you know anything about its results?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2312, "page_number": "1846", "date": "13 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-13", "text": "ANot up to these trials, and the question of the extermination through labor or work, also for the first time in this trial. However, concerning the question of the extermination of Jews in captivity, I know.\nQWitness, what do you know generally speaking about the treatment of the Jews in Hitler's Germany?\nAI know that in 1937 or in 1958, the Nurnberg Laws were issued. I know that prior to that, constant propaganda was being carried out that the Jews could only be used according to the percentage of their number in certain fields of tasks. For instance, it was said that in some city, there was one percent of Jews; however, 80 percent of them were doctors or something like that. It was said that this would have to be brought down to a smaller basis and that time would take care of that. That is all I know at the time. However, the difference became more and more effective with the time, and some time passed by, it had been repeatedly mentioned, namely, when the Nurnberg Laws were published, or when the German diplomat was murdered, a largo program of Jewish business and Jewish synagogues took place. I did not know about that at the time. In 1939, I believe, during the war, when I was stationed at Koenigsberg with my old garrison, I noticed that the place where the synagogue was standing was empty. I asked my guide, who happened to be an officer from Koenigsberg, if he had any idea what kind of a square this was. He answered that he had only been there for a short time himself; however, the synagogue was there, and one of these years, I don't know -- until it was 1937 or 1938, it had been burnt down and that was all he had learned.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2313, "page_number": "", "date": "13 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-13", "text": "There, for the first time, I saw this question of degradation to a church.\nQ.What else did you learn during the war was to happen to the Jews. Did you learn that they were to be brought to the cast?\nA.Yes; but only through rumors, because neither from radios nor from the papers nor any other official agency would one learn about the facts.\n1846a What struck me, however, was -- and I don't know exactly when that was that the Jews were wearing a yellow star on their suit.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2314, "page_number": "1847", "date": "13 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-13", "text": "The star was about that big (indicating). It was very conspicuous. I saw that while I was driving from my office to my home, or from my home to my office, but I could see that. During the war, however, it struck me that very few of those stars could be seen in Berlin. I kept inquiring about that matter, but I never received an accurate answer, until one day somebody told me -- I don' t remember who -- that the Jews were being sent to special Jewish cities and resettled there. They wanted to give them state of their own, or a city of their own, if you want to call it that, a homestead of their own. As most of the Jews lived in the region of Galicia, I heard that these little homesteads of theirs would be set up there. However, the whole thing was not clear. The man who told me about that knew nothing more about it than what he had heard through rumors.\nQWitness, did you know that large numbers of Jews were being sent to concentration camps?\nANo.\nQDid you know that they were being gassed in the concentration a camps and murdered in an inhumane manner?\nANo.\nQDid you know what the name \"Auschwitz\" meant?\nANo, not in connection with the concentration camp or inhumane acts.\nQHowever, there was quite an important factory there?\nAYes; that is how I know the name.\nQHave you ever visited that factory?\nANo.\nQWhat was your opinion concerning the face question?\nAUntil the end of the first war, or until about the middle of the first war, I did not know the Jewish problem or the Jewish question. During the war, however, the Jews were being reproached for avoiding the draft, for the fact that they had made a lot of money as war profiteers or racketeers.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2315, "page_number": "1848", "date": "13 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-13", "text": "During the whole war I was at the front and never at home, with the exception of a few days' leave or furlough, and I was not able to observe that with my own eyes.\nFrom that time on, until the end of the war, we had one family where my sister and the daughter of a Jewish family were known to each other; in other words, they were friends. Those were the only Jews I ever saw in my own family and they were very nice and sympathetic people.\nAfter the first war, however, there was a large immigration of Jews from the Eastern parts of Europe into Germany. I know from those Jewish people that I knew--that is, those that I know--that they were absolutely against that immigration of the Eastern Jews; and they even made a statement to the effect that this was not their own race.\nLater on, in the continuation of my work in civilian aviation, I very seldom met Jews.\nFor example, the Poles, with whom I made all these agreements at times concerning the commercial air line and the sale of Junker planes--coming back to that, the first man of that company was Jewish. I had very good connections with him, and I got along fine with him; I thought he was a very good man. When I was in Warsaw I stayed with him; there were difficulties with billeting at the time.\nThen, in the Lufthansa, I used, as my technical secretary, a pilot who also was Jewish; he has been mentioned here before. His name was Erich Schatzki, and I believe that at the Lufthansa I helped him to keep his position as well as to build up his position, which he deserved according to his work, because he was a hard working man and an honest man. It was my duty to help him during the war when, during the occupation of Holland he wanted to go to the States, which I could understand very well, and I tried my best to help him.\nQIs it correct that colleagues of that Mr. Schatzki in the Lufthansa had approached you and asked you to have him fired when they were so excited that he, as a Jew, had such an important position? What did you tell these people upon that?", "speakers": [ "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2316, "page_number": "1849", "date": "13 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-13", "text": "AThe higher technical chief who was between myself and Schatzki did not like him. That was, technically speaking, my deputy. I did not comply with these wishes, but I was absolutely against them, and as there were other points which I did not like about this gentleman, I went to see the Control Council and saw that he was fired. Schatzki, together with somebody else, took his place, or his job. However, after 1933, Schatzki -- he was an honorable man and he did not want to stay in Germany as a man of second-class because he was a Jew. I told him I could understand that very well, and we helped him to receive a job with Focker, first with Kurzhofen, and then with Focker.\nQWitness, did you believe in the Master Race theory, or were you against it?\nAI have been abroad very often, and I know three continents. From that reasoning, it can be understood that I did not believe in the Master Race theory. I saw in that nothing but a reflection of the people's own inferiority complex. Whoever knows the Englishmen and the Frenchmen, or the Russians, will never be able to speak of an inferiority complex within those races.\nApart from that, I think it absolutely crazy that some one who believes in such a theory should mention it or speak about it. I don't believe that anybody would say he is more handsome than anybody else, even if he himself is absolutely convinced of that.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2317, "page_number": "1850", "date": "13 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-13", "text": "QThank yon, that is enough.\nWitness, document 017-PS, Exhibit No. 18--this is a letter of the 5th of October 1942, of Sauckel's, to the Reich Minister for the Occupied Eastern Territories, namely, Rosenberg, concerning the mobilization of foreign laborers. That is a letter he wrote. Do you know anything at all about this letter?\nANot until up to these trials.\nQWitness, what, generally speaking, do your know about the recruitment in the East? At that time did you go to the East, and could you make your own observations at the time?\nQI only arrived at the air fields near the front, where I inspected troops, and then I drove in my car through known countrysides to Hitler's and Goering's headquarters. These were headquarters which were in wooded areas, in the woods north of Winniza. I landed either in Winniza or Kalinowka; the airfield of Winniza was in the North. In other words, I did not drive through the town itself. That place, had no air field, had no houses whatsoever.\nQIn other words, you could not make any observations whatsoever?\nANo. I couldn't make any observations.\nQYou couldn't know that, I see. Thank you.\nDocument 054-PS, Exhibit no. 19, is a report of Rosenberg's-- on page 85, Your Honors-- concerning the bad situation which had been caused by the Sauckel action, the report of the 7th of October 1942. Has this report been brought to your attention?\nANot up to this trial.\nQDid you ever hear any rumors about that, or any other statements that Sauckel, when recruiting these Eastern workers, had taken considerably wrong measures and that bad situations had occurred or arisen namely , that these people were taken together like cattle, so that one could speak of theft or robbery of human beings?", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2318, "page_number": "1851", "date": "13 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-13", "text": "ANo, not up to this trial. On the contrary, if I ever heard anything about that question, or if I read it in the newspapers, then it was described in the most beautiful colors you can imagine.\nQWitness, you also visited factories, didn't you, and you saw Eastern male or female workers there, didn't you?\nAYes.\nWhat was your opinion about these people? Didn't they complain to you of anything?\nAI regarded it as absolutely natural that whenever I visited a factory it was natural for me to talk to these workers, even if, in my official capacity, I had nothing to do with that question. However, as a soldier I was accustomed to act in that way. On that occasion I asked them how they were, how the food was; I looked at the people and I saw how well they were clad and what kind of an impression they gave us, generally speaking, if they looked healthy, if they looked satisfied or not. I saw Russians, namely Russian prisoners of war. Then I saw Russian female civilian workers, namely, Ukraines. I saw Frenchmen, namely, French civilian workers. There could have been prisoners of war amongst them, but they were wearing protective overalls over their clothes. There could have been workers from Slovakia, who considered themselves our allies, but they were very, very few. Then there were quite a few Italian workers there, those who had come on a voluntary basis at the time; those so-called \"Emis\" I did not see.\nQDid Eastern workers, male or female, ever complain to you concerning their work?\nANo, they did not. On the contrary, the general im pression of these female Ukrainians who worked on the Junker 52's was a very pleasing one.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2319, "page_number": "1852", "date": "13 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-13", "text": "The girls were singing; they were well fed; they were well dressed; and they answered my questions in a nice, cheerful way. I spent about 20 minutes with these girls. There were quite a few pretty ones amongst them, and towards the end they flirted with me, and the girls were laughing all the time.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The Court had better recess, this is getting to the danger point.\n(A recess was taken until 1330 hours.)", "speakers": [ "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2320, "page_number": "1853", "date": "13 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-13", "text": "AFTERNOON SESSION\nTHE MARSHAL:Tribunal No. 2 is again in session BY DR. BERGOLD: Witness, I now turn to Document 294 PS, Exhibit 19A. It is a document dated 25 October 1942, and it is a top secret matter in the shape of a memorandum from a Mr. Braeutigam dealing with the situation in Russia. The back of it deals with the situation regarding prisoners of war, some of it with the treatment of Ukranians. Had you previous knowledge of this matter?\nA.No.\nQ.I now come to Document L6I, Exhibit No. 20. It is an express letter from Sauckel dated 26 November 1942 addressed to the Presidents of the Landes Employment Office. It deals with the employment of Jews and their exchange for Poles. Do you know or did you know at the time of this document and its contents?\nA.No.\nQ.Document 1063 PS D Exhibit 21, an order from a certain Mr. Mueller from the RSHA relating to detainees capable of work who were to be sent to concentration camps. Do you or did you know anything about this at the time?\nA.No.\nQ.Exhibit 22, Document 018 PS, which is a letter of complaint from Rosenberg to Sauckel dated 21 December 1942. It relates to labor in the East, and Rosenberg is complaining about wrong measures which Sauckel adopted. Did you ever get this letter, or did it ever come to your knowledge?\nA.No.\nQ.Then of coarse you couldn't know anything about the story told about this Document 3003 PS, Exhibit No. 24, a report from a certain Lt. Haupt regarding the war economic situation in Holland. Did you know anything about that at the time?\nA.No.", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "A.", "Q." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2321, "page_number": "1854", "date": "13 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-13", "text": "QThen follows Exhibit 1526 PS, Exhibit No. 25, a latter from the Ukranian Chief Committee addressed to tho General Government originating from the north of February 1943, again dealing with tho deficiencies in the East, which Sauckel's treasures had caused. Did you receive that report or did it come to your knowledge at tho tine?\nANo.\nQThen follows Document No. 1130 PS, Exhibit No. 25. Those are notes and reports about a speech made by Gauleiter Koch at Kiev dated 5 March and 11 April 1943. Did you hoar anything about tho speech made by Koch or did you have detailed knowledge of it at the time?\nANo.\nQThen I turn to Document 407 II PS, a letter from Sauckel to Hitler dated 10 March 1943, again dealing with recruitment difficulties of labor in the former soviet Territories. Did you receive it?\nANo.\nQNext is document 019 PS Exhibit No. 27, dated March 17 1943, a letter from Sauckel to Rosenberg regarding replacements of Eastern laborers. Did you got knowledge of it? Did you receive it?\nANo.\nQDocument 3012 PS, Exhibit No. 28, an order from a certain Mr. Christiansen dated 19 March and 11 March, respectively, addressed to all group loaders of SD dealing with deficiencies in Eastern territories. Did you got knowledge of it?\nANo.\nQExhibit No. 2220 PS, Exhibit No. 29, is a report from Lammers to Himmler dated April 12, 1943 dealing with the situation in the Government General and containing suggestions regarding, alterations, including dismissal of Frank. Did you previously gain knowledge of it?\nA.No", "speakers": [ "A", "A.", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2322, "page_number": "1855", "date": "13 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-13", "text": "QDocument 407 V IS, Exhibit No. 30, a report from Sauckel to Hitler, dated 15 April 1943, in which he reports to Hitler about his activities and particularly reports about the fact that statutes should be applied to the Belguims similar to these applicable to the French, and also all the foreign labor ho had brought to the Reich. Did you gain knowledge of the report at the time?\nANo.\nQThen follows 2280, Document 2280 PS, Exhibit 32. That is a letter dated 3 Hay 1943 from the Reich Commissioner for Eastern territories dealing with the recruitment of labor in the Baltic states. Did you gain knowledge of it at the time?\nANo.\nQExhibit No. 31, photograph of the work done by Russian prisoners of war on ammunition works. Did you ever see such photographs?\nANeither did I see the photograph nor did I see it in reality.\nQDid you never hear of it that Russian prisoners of war were carrying ammunition and had to load aircraft and had to do similar work?\nAIt isn't known to me. When I visited an airport with bombers in it I never saw Russians who worked on these aircraft in any way, be it with ammunition or be it with bombs. I did see aircraft being loaded. That was always done by special employees, German soldiers of the airforce.\nQDocument 407 IX PS Exhibit No. 33 a letter from Sauckel dated 3 June 1943, addressed to Hitler, again do-ling with the situation of foreign workers, in connection with whom ho reports all the things that he did in the first five months cf 1943 and whom ho brought to Germant. Did you hear of this report at the time?\nANo.\nQWith reference to this passage I want to put a question to you. The assertion has boon made that Sauckel had currently made reports to you about his activities, about the bringing into Germany of foreign workers, for instance. Is that correct or is it not?", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2323, "page_number": "1856", "date": "13 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-13", "text": "AThat is wrong. I only saw Sauckel in the framework of the Central Planning Board on individual meetings. He never once came to my office, and I myself never went to his. Nor could I tell you today where it was. I don't even know where he had his offices.\nQDidn't you receive written reports from him?\nAI never saw a written report from him.\nQDo you know wheter your office would have received such a report and whether you had a verbal report about that?\nAMy own office certainly never received suck a report. Whether the statistical personnel department in the GL did receive suck matters is something I do not know. They certainly weren't put before me.\nQReports about the receipt o such?\nAI did not receive them.\nQDocument 3000 PS, Exhibit No. 34, a report from the chief of the loading department 3 attached to the Supreme Commander in Minsk, addressed to a certain Mr. Reichert, dated 28 June 1943, dealing with political and economic problems in the East, particularly in White Russia. Did you over receive that report or did you over get knowledge of it?\nANo.\nQDocument 265 PS, Exhibit No. 35, a memorandum dealing with an oral report of a Mr. Luose (?) to Rosenberg, dealing with the situation in the district of Shitemir in Russia. Did you over got knowledge of that memorandum?\nANo, and I would like to add to that that this applies to the period right up to the beginning of this trial.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2324, "page_number": "1857", "date": "13 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-13", "text": "Q.Document 3010-PS, Exhibit 38, a secret organizational order dated 17 August 1943, from the Economic Supervisory Department regarding recruitment of labor for the Reich, Did you gain knowledge of it?\nA.No.\nQ.What is the position - a number of documents I have Put to you have been described as \"secret\". Could you possibly ever reach them in your department or were they only secret within the actual sphere of activity which they concerned?\nA.No, that differs. \"Secret\" means that they weren't allowed to reach the public anywhere. Such, also, when the heading was \"secret\", were treated in a special way, militarily speaking; that is, because they went through a special registry department, and that civilian departments would also write \"secret\" also. What they mean by that - how they treat it - that is something I don't know. We didn't call it \"secret\". We called it \"Secret Command Matter\" and whenever it says just \"secret\", then it is probably from a civilian source.\nQ.Document 290-PS, Exhibit No. 37, a letter from Rosenber's ministry dated November 12, 1943, regarding the burning down of houses in the district of Lille. Did you hear about it at any time?\nA.No.\nQ.Did you hear at any time anything about the fact that Sauckel, as punishment for the failure to report for work, had houses burned down?\nA.No.\nQ.Document 1702-PS, Exhibit 37, dated November-December 1943, a report about the evacuation of Cassatine. Did that cone to your knowledge - that report?\nA.No.\nQ.Document 1913-FS, Exhibit Number 38-A. It is an agreement reached between the general plenipotentiary for labor - that is, Sauckel - and the German Labor Front regarding the welfare of foreign labor, which appeared in the Reich Law Gazett in 1943. Was this agreement communicated to you, or did you gain knowledge of it?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2325, "page_number": "1858", "date": "13 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-13", "text": "A.Yes, I know it as far as its contents are concerned, but the text was not submitted to me.\nQ.What do you mean, \"as far as its contents are concerned\"?\nA.I knew that for the improvement of the lot of all foreign workers in Germany, it being high from the point of view of welfare and entertainment, cinema, music, theater, and such like, and better equipment of camps with furniture and so on. Ley, with his Labor Front, had intervened and that this sector, which had until then been dealt with by Sauckel along, and which wasn't functioning too well, was taken over.\nA.What was the impression you had of this decree? Was it meant to improve it or make it worse?\nA.Since the German Labor Front in Germany was doing a great deal of good work on behalf of the workers, we were most pleased since a demand of ours which we had often made for better welfare for foreign workers was thus taken care of. However, industry, during occasional visits, had drawn our attention to the fact that such questions of entertainment and improvement were lacking a great deal in many places, and industry alone was not in a position to alleviate it in a sufficiently strong way.\nQ.Document 204-PS, exhibit Number 59, a memorandum dated 18 February 1944, from the Municipal Commissioner at Kauen, originally called Kowno, regarding the supply of workers from there to the Reich. Did you gain knowledge of that memorandum?\nA.No.\nQ.DocumentR-103, Exhibit No. 40, a letter from the Polish Chief Committee to the Governor General Frank, dated 17 May 1944, dealing with the position of Polish workers in the Reich. Did you ever receive that letter - gain knowledge of it?\nA.No.\nQ.Did you, around about that time, not hear about it - that in Poland conditions were frightful?\nA.No.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2326, "page_number": "1859", "date": "13 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-13", "text": "Q.Document 254-PS, Exhibit 41, dated 7 June 1944, is a letter from Rapp to the Reichminister for the Occupied Territories, who was Rosenberg, dealing with the burning down of houses in the Rasivkow district. Did you gain knowledge of it?\nA.No.\nQ.I shall now turn to Document 3721-PS, Exhibit Number 41A. That is an interrogation of Sauckel on the 22nd of September 1945. It is on page 180 of the English Document Book. He makes the following statement; namely, that the Fuehrer had given him the task that all questions from the Central Planning Board should be complied with without question so that the Central Planning Board would, therefore, have some sort of authority to give orders to him. And he says it was decided in the Central Planning Board that their workers in various departments would be dealt with by Milch or Speer, Speer for agriculture. I don't want you to go into this in detail; we shall have to speak about this at great length. But when going through these exhibits, I should like to have a brief answer from you regarding the correctness of this statement. I think we shall go into it in detail at another point.\nA.These statements are wrong.\nQ.There are similar passages where it is again and again asserted that since the Central Labor Board made decisions to the effect that Speer would get a hundred thousand, Milch would get a hundred thousand people, and so on and so forth. Is that correct or incorrect?\nA.No, it is incorrect.\nQ.Regarding the remaining exhibit in those two volumes, 1-A and B, I don't think I need come to them since they deal with affidavits; for instance, from a certain Deuss, dealing with the approximate numbers, or a report from the Senate of the 79th Congress for cruelties in concentration camps, and all these are natters, of course, which were only compiled in this form after the war. I shall now turn to Document Book 2A, Your Honors, and I turn to DocumentNOKW 311, Exhibit 61, which is Goering's interrogation on the 6th of September 1946.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2327, "page_number": "1860", "date": "13 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-13", "text": "Witness, once again I shall only put to you individual statements and I should like you to tell me with reference to those passages, briefly, whether the versions are correct or not. Page 44, 2B, Goering's statement at that point that you had made requests - on orders by Speer, who in turn would make these requests to Sauckel, You make them to Speer, he made them to Sauckel. The version which we have there -\nDR. BERGOLD:This, Your Honors, is the 8th document in Document Book 2-A; the interpretation of it on page 20 - on page 34. It is NOKW, on page 44-\nMR. DENNEY:Your Honors, that is the first page of Document Book 2B.\nBY DR. BERGOLD:\nQ.Is that a correct statement, such as he gave?\nA.No, it is wrong. It is untrue. Goering didn't have the slightest idea of the organization of his own ministry.\nQ.Witness, he states that if you had ever been having difficulties in getting workers, then you had gone to him and he always supported it. Is that correct in that form?\nA.That is correct; that on a few occasions, and always when he had been making, raising accusations against me to the effect that our armament was lagging behind its program, and when I was giving him as the reason the lack of workers, I would tell him these workers never got to us. And then he would say that Sauckel had supplied them, that he had no idea about it.\nI told him that I could only find out what the industry had reported to me as the actual strength which I think was done month by month, and I could gather from that, I said, that the number of workers had never increased.\nHe wouldn't have it; he wouldn't believe it, and he was going to talk to Sauckel. But usually I never had another word about it.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2328, "page_number": "", "date": "13 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-13", "text": "Sometimes, of course, he used to say that he was going to see to it that we would receive these workers in our industry. But then again I couldn't 1860-A judge that because I only knew the total figures which were available.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2329, "page_number": "1861", "date": "13 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-13", "text": "", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2330, "page_number": "1862", "date": "13 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-13", "text": "Q.He then went on to say that you had boon his deputy as State Secretary, firstly, during his absence and, secondly, in a number of spheres which he left to you. Is that correct or not correct?\nA.It applies correctly until the summer of 1937 -- the general deputizing in the Air Force I am talking about. After that it is no longer correct. Automatically I became his deputy in my own sphere of work if he did not carry out his offices, but since he retained his position when he was on holiday, for instance, then it was only the ordinary deputy's work in my own spheres of work, dealing with all questions where he had given me an independent position. What this amounted to was that he was informed through me about all important questions. He never gave an order--something which he had expressly reserved to himself--to the effect that I was to be his deputy.\nQ.Witness, I shall now go ahead a number of documents, and I shall turn toNOKW 247, Exhibit Number 61, which is this power of attorney, this authority which Goering is supposed to have given you in 1944. It is in Document book 2-C. I shall have it put to you.\nMR. DENNEY:Document book 2-C\nA.May I ask whether we have an original or a photostatic copy of this?\nQ.That I do not know. Maybe Mr. Denney can clear up the situation, namely, whether there is an original of this draft.\nMR. DENNEY:It would be with the Secretary General, whatever we've got.\nQ.As far as I know, an original is not in existence.\nA.I wanted to see the numbers it had so that I could see where it originated and who wrote it.\nDR. BERGOLD:Perhaps the General Secretary could be asked to have Exhibit Number 61 sent to the courtroom, and I shall in the meantime ask about various other exhibits that I have to deal with.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2331, "page_number": "1863", "date": "13 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-13", "text": "I am now taking about Exhibit Number 61, and perhaps, witness, you will retain it for the moment.\nBY DR. BERGOLD:\nQ.I shall now pass on to Gearing's testimony inNOKW 311. There it is stated that Hippke had been under you directly in his capacity as Inspector General and that Hippke had simultaneously been under the command of the General Staff. Is that correct in that form?\nA.No, it is not correct in that form. During peace time Hippke was under my command. Sometime at the beginning of the war his subordination was altered. Later by error I had the view that he had immediately been transferred under the command of the General Staff, but that was not correct. This occurred only at the beginning of 1944 and applied only to his successor. During the war and at the time which is interesting in connection with these experiments, he was under the Air Chief, first of all, General Ruedl and later General Foerster.\nQ.I should like you to find the last document in the book which you have before you. This is the second book of the Prosecution, and, please, will you look atNOKW 287, Exhibit Number 49. It is a letter dated 8 April 1943 which you are supposed to have written to Goering and Sauckel. It is on page 176, page 101 in the English document book.\nA.I have found the letter.\nQ.Will you define your attitude, please?\nTHE PRESIDENT:First, did he write the letter? Did you write the letter?\nA.I consider that a possibility. I have no recollection of it, but I consider it a possibility that I signed it. According to the file reference, it comes from the Planning Office of the GL, and I have no reason to doubt that I signed it.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2332, "page_number": "1864", "date": "13 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-13", "text": "Q.Witness, you are saying, then, that you did not draft tho letter?\nA.Well, naturally, this is a smaller department which, insofar as its work was concerned, had also to deal with the protection of industries.\nQ.What are we concerned with is the case of this industry protection? Did that mean that that was in charge of the supervision of foreign workers and prisoners of war?\nA.We called it \"Plant protection\", and it had nothing to do with it. These plants were naturally separated by a surrounding wall. You could get in through the entrance only. There had to be a guard at each entrance, and that guard used to examine passes of all those who entered, because certain secret articles were being manufactured in those plants, and you just couldn't walk in as you might into a public place or an ordinary house. That was one part of those people.\nThen inside all these plants there wore other special departments needing protection, such places, for instance, as those which were carrying out new developments. They, in turn, wore once more separated from the rest of the plant. Everyone who was allowed to enter such a secret place had different passes, passes with a different color.\nNow,for instance, if I visited a plant, then I was let through tho first gate very simply by virtue of the fact that one of the higher officials of the plant used to receive me, but if I wanted to enter the secret departments--and they were, of course, distributed over various parts of the plant--then I had to show special passes. I remember it in detail. It used to be a red pass. Only a limited number of them had been issued.\nIn certain plants there were even departments where not even I could enter, and that was my own industry. That was a special order which came from Hitler.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2333, "page_number": "1865", "date": "13 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-13", "text": "All these fences, or whatever they were,were guarded by sentries, just as we have a sergeant standing at the door here to examine the passes of the Americans,too, when they want to enter here.\nThese same people were also responsible for supplying the fire fighting squad of the plant, and that fire fighting squad, according to the number of air bombing attacks, was becoming more important and was being employed more frequently and had to be increased in numbers. likewise, every plant had air raid shelters, and those air raid shelters had to be taken care of. There was technical equipment in them, special ventilation equipment, heating equipment, and such like, and that question too, was taken care of by this plant protection squad. Those were the only purposes which they served.\nLet me add that prisoners of war, if they were working in a plant, used to bring an officer from their camp and some arms, and according to instructions, an armed officer would have to be present when, theoretically speaking, only one prisoner of war was sent there to work. Only the army was concerned with that type of supervision. Foreign workers who were civilians were not guarded at all.\nQ.Witness, you will remember that a French witness testified here and said that during transports and in various camps he had been guarded. He did admit later on that he wasn't.\nA.The way I understood his testimony was that he was guarded during his transport and in the first camps he was in, which were under Sauckel's jurisdiction. That is before he was sent into plants.\nAt any rate, I do not know that a single civilian worker was guarded at any time, nor have I ever during a single visit to a plant seen anything like that.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2334, "page_number": "1866", "date": "13 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-13", "text": "Q.When you were traveling through Berlin, did you observe that foreign workers were freely running about in the streets? Did not Eastern workers at one point wear special badges on their clothes? I mean the Ukrainians, the White Russians, and so on.\nA.It is true that there were badges, colored badges, the colors of their national flag, I think it was. I think it said \"East\" on some of then at the beginning. I knew that they were going about freely. I saw it, and I know from my family that they wore sitting next to then in the pictures. I myself never wont to a cinema during the war, and, therefore, I can not give you an impression of my own.\nQ.Witness, such guarding of plants where military arms were being produced, according to reports from your agents --was not that carried out in hostile foreign countries?\nA.Yes, and as far as we were concerned, that eas the situation in peace time. I know such an institution from the British aircraft industry, and I do not believe that it was over handled differently in the States either. That is a. perfectly normal procedure -- that every plant has such protection as I have explained to you. It had to be. It would have boon a frightful omission on the part of some authority if such protection had not been applied, but that docs not apply only to military plants. It applies to every other typo. I know for instance, that a plant like the Siemens Works, which was manufacturing only civilian articles -- and there were lots of plants there -- was similarly surrounded by plant protection, as was any military plant.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2335, "page_number": "1867", "date": "13 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-13", "text": "QWitness, I shall now review Exhibit No. 61. It is an authorization from Goering. It is a photostat copy.\nAIt is the same thing as this other one. You can not tell what, but actually I know of the affair as such. In this is this story.\nQWitness, will you let me have the envelope back again, will you please?\nACertainly, I don't want to keep it. Yesterday I told this Tribunal that on the 20 June 1941 I received the order in Goering's office that I should act as Udet's adviser to something about the supplying of the air armament production. During subsequent days by means of discussions with Udet, I gained a picture of the situation, and how the production situation was under Udet, which came from Udet's description. Udet was telling me of his objection, and he said that he was not getting enough material, and we considered the number of items in detail, that copper was placed in priority in the materials, and consequently he was complaining that he was not able to get a hold of the necessary labor for his factories. Everything, he said, has always been promised and nothing had been kept. Apart from that he said his armament had always been treated as in the last place, and that Hitler with the same principle had always been acting in favor of the Army and the Navy; or, that no one was taking care of the armament for the airforce; that Goering had not been informed as to individual problems, and, that, therefore, when he would bring that subject up with Hitler, he was and always had been told to keep quiet. Minister Todt was still alive at the time, and had much greater influence upon Hitler than Goering, and consequently any support was going through the Army and Navy channels, whereas, he to the best of his ability could not achieve what w as being asked from him. He went on to tell me he wanted to have some sort of authority, or some sort of authorization which would open their door. Consequently we met on 23 June 1941, when we were with Goering, and reported that what Udet had told us. In the end I claimed to Goering that either Udet or I, whoever he wanted, would have to have an authorization by means of which we could assert ourselves against the re-armament of the Army. Goering had bluntly stated, \"Put such a paper before me and I will sign it for you.\"", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2336, "page_number": "1868", "date": "13 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-13", "text": "I got ahold of a legal expert of good standing and asked him to produce an authorization, and I told him in that connection - in that authorization we must have so much that we do that I can arrest the Reichsmarshal himself any time I want to. He laughed at me but he got such a thing for me, and a few hours later it came, and then I put it before Goering. Goering did not read it but he signed it, and I went on to tell him the fact that I would have to be decent enough to point out to him that with that authorization I could not only arrest him but Hitler too, any time I felt like it. He looked at me, and now he read it, and that was the end of that authorization. This had been precisely on 23 June, when he allowed it, and I think it was the next day that he signed it when I put it before him. This authorization had never been, nor was ever meant seriously, because I myself would have probably been arrested if applied, if any one of the things had been tried by me by means of this authorization. This authorization went far beyond what Goering had in the way of power.\nQ.Witness--\nTHE PRESIDENT:Just a minute. When the witness testified about the authorization, the date is not given, or are we to speculate it would have been 1944?\nDR. BERGOLD:No.\nTHEWITNESS: 1941, Mr. President.\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes.\nTHE WITNESS:But it was not dated, you see, because it did not come into force. I don't know where this particular edition of this authorization might be coming from because everything was destroyed at the time. It is only possible that the legal man who wrote it took a copy. Never at any time did this authorization become valid, and, therefore, it was never employed, and I believe the legal expert will understand it better when I say that it would have been an impossibility that any man in Germany could have been given such an authorization.", "speakers": [ "THE WITNESS", "Q.", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2337, "page_number": "1869", "date": "13 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-13", "text": "BY DR. BERGOLD:\nQ.Witness, what you want to say is that the authorization had been some \"gag\" similar to the one which the lieutenants used to play on their captains when they had them sign a death sentence against themselves?\nA.Yes, and I know of such a case. What is more, I can give you another example here of a Battalion commander was dismissed one tine and his paymaster was put in a prison for six months. The paymaster had made a bet to the effect that his commanding officer would sign everything for him without reading it. It was a very high bet on it, and this paymaster did win it. It said in the letter \"Dear Sir: That I have not read this letter, that if I had read it I would have not have understood it. Signed, Major - \" of the Battalion commander. It really had happened, Your Honor.\nI would like to add that I was going to write Goering in this connection because he had new to give my authorization. He said, \"Now you got my authorization, now you can do everything you want,\" and we would not have had a moment's peace, either, by showing him that authorization, which could not have had a chance of success, as it could not have been issued by him at all since he could not give such an authorization which went far beyond his own powers. That is the reason why it was destroyed at once. But Goering had his different instructions to the effect that an authorization from him would not be questioned at all for purposes of air re-armament, something which he had been stating before. His strength of poorer at that time was not so strong, although he was at the time acting on his glory, ad arbitrium, that he could stand up against the armament program, or the other branches of the armed forces. In 1944 it had been stated by the prosecution, I should like to remind them that on 20 June 1944 I had been excluded from all armament questions, and that it could hardly be assumed that during those last twenty days one might be given any such an authorization as that.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2338, "page_number": "1870", "date": "13 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-13", "text": "QWe shall cone to the differences which you had with Goering, which lead to your breach with him, we will come to this later. Witness, I shall have to ask you now in relation to Document No. 1297-PS, Exhibit No. 63, a letter from Sauckel to Lammers, dated March 9th, telling about the recruitment of labor. Do you mind if I have your book. It is page 65 of the Document Book 2-B in English. It is merely a report dealing with labor, which ho applied between 3rd of January and March 1944, totaling three hundred thousand. Did that letter come to your knowledge?\nANo. What that is connected with is the Hitler conference on 14 January 1944 and the Central Planning Board meeting after the middle of February up to the 3rd of March, but I did not get knowledge of that letter.\nQThen we have a report from Sauckel, dated 7 July 1944, Exhibit No. 65, Document No. 208-PS. That is again dealing with the labor supply description. Did it come to your knowledge?\nANo, I had resigned from that work at the time. I was not there.\nQYou were not there and do not know anything about it?\nANo.\nQYou had nothing to do with the labor question?\nANo, I did not have anything to do with the labor question. Even before when I was there, that is, I knew what they were speaking of, I still say no.\nQThen the same applies to Document No. 3819-PS, Exhibit No. 86, and Document No. FA-24, Exhibit No. 87, the one dated 11 July 1944, and other dated 26 July 1944; one is a record by Lammers recording the discussion with Hitler, and the other one from Herr Kluge telling of the recruitment of labor there, but was, I think, after the time of your resignation?\nAYes, both are unknown to me.\nQWitness, I will now enter into the question of what did the Central Planning Board have to do with the labor questions at all?", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2339, "page_number": "1871", "date": "13 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-13", "text": "A.The Central Planning Board had considerable toughness connected with the question of getting hold of raw materials, which was in turn to be distributed by them, and obtaining of raw materials. According to the original Ministry of Economy it went to Speer in the Armament Ministry. On such raw materials depended the armaments of the armament program.\nThe pacemaker among all these raw materials for the rearmament program was steel, but the pacemaker in turn for steel was coal or coke production. That was the biggest bottleneck, since, unfortunately, during the first years cf the war the youngest and strongest aged groups of miners had been called up for military service. Hitler had given us the order to develop a steel production program amounting to 3.2 million tons per month. This was to be done by Speer, and Speer had succeeded to reach the figure of 2.6 million tons, but that was the maximum. Hitler's armament program, however, had been based on the figure of 3.2 millions. Hitler had demanded these armament programs and the experts had calculated the amount of steel they needed for those programs.\nWe, in the Central Planning Board discussed the possibilities of getting up to 3.2 million tons of steel, and Speer being the man for that part of the production, ordered the men from the steel manufacturers' union to come and see him in a conference in which all steel problems, through his administration of the industry, were being dealt with. Speer was in agreement with me, this is an aside which I must add, to the effect it was a mistake to direct industry through the state, but that industry ought to govern itself through committees of their own, coming from their own ranks, and then, cf course, these main committees and rings which we have talked about must be understood.\nThese gentlemen from the Reich's Union, Iron stated that the possibilities existed that 3.2 million tons cf steel could be manufactured, subject to certain conditions. In that connection the main prerequisite was a very much larger allocation of coke. Apart from that they wanted certain additional matters for their own production, some labor too.", "speakers": [ "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2340, "page_number": "", "date": "13 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-13", "text": "I remember the question of smelters which was submitted at the time. I am not an expert, but at that time I did gather that we were concerned with specialists with very considerable ability and knowledge, since otherwise a few handsful of men wouldn't have 1871 a been brought into our conversation.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2341, "page_number": "1872", "date": "13 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-13", "text": "At any rate, the main problem was coal.\nSpeer, anyhow, during one of our conferences, sent for the men representing the coal industry. Such a Reich Union, Coal, had existed for some considerable time. These people stated that there was enough coal in the mines but that human manpower was lacking to bring it up. Speer now asked them to tell him in writing in his capacity as armament minister as to what was needed. Now, these men apparently reported the figures regarding workers they had, and it was during those conferences with the coal representatives, always, of course, with reference to the question of steel. It was also stated that all efforts on the part of the Armament Ministry would have to fall down because of the labor shortage.\nSpeer, as he told me, mentioned this to Hitler dozens of times. It was here for the first time that various controversies arose between Speer and Sauckel.\nDR. BERGOLD:Witness, I think it is going to take sometime in what you have to say. Perhaps at the point where you turned to Sauckel we can have the recess of the Tribunal.\nTHE MARSHALL:This Tribunal is in recess for fifteen minutes.\n(A recess was taken)", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHALL", "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2342, "page_number": "1873", "date": "13 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-13", "text": "THE MARSHAL:Tribunal Number 2 is again in session.\nQ.Witness, will you now continue to explain to the Tribunal what the Central Planning Board had to do with the labor question? You just stopped at Sauckel.\nA.The first difficulties arose with Speer as armament minister and Sauckel. Speer said, \"I'm short of workers.\" Sauckel said, \"I have fulfilled all your demands\", and as proof he submitted his figures. Between the figures which Speer had and those which Sauckel had no comparison was ever possible. They were based on different suppositions. Speer was unable to obtain the basis for the figures which were at Sauckel's disposal. In their conflict Hitler took the side of Sauckel. He wished to exercise pressure on Speer, thereby to increase armament. Speer was unable to do so because he did not have the workers who ha.d to produce coal.\nThis struggle went on through the years. At first Speer still hoped that Sauckel would still bring the workers into his factories until in the summer of 1943 he gave up this hope. In the Central Planning Board this, of course, was discussed, and it was also discussed how much steel we could obtain for the next three months and haw we could, distribute it. The contrast between the figures Hitler wishes to have 3.2 million tons of steely we can only distribute 2.6 millions because Speer is quite unable to produce more. The consequence was.again that Hitler reproached Speer for not producing more steel although Sauckel had supplied the workers. The Central Planning Board was not responsible for the quantity at his disposal. Speer asked me to give him my support in this question. I did so quite frequently in the meetings and also when I reported to Goering because we wished to convince Goering that we did not have the workers so that Goering would intervene with Hitler in that sense.\nBut I was unable to obtain Goering's support. Goering took Hitler's side, and he said, \"The workers are there.\" All we could do now was i.e. Speer above all and we ourselves secondly in order to help him to attack Sauckel. Sauckel escaped all meetings for a long time. Sometimes he sent a representative, and in some cases he himself appeared.", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "A.", "Q." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2343, "page_number": "1874", "date": "13 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-13", "text": "but he and his representative pursued the some policy by giving us a lot of figures and alleging \"we had fulfilled everything\". Our doubts in these figures increased. Hitler became more and more impatient and the reproaches for Speer towards the end of 1943 became insufferable. Whereas Hitler supported Speer until roughly the middle of 1943 and regarded him as one of the first collaborators, the relations became much more cool later on, and I explained that mainly through this conflict I myself had the same annoyance both with Goering and with Hitler, who maintained vis a vis of myself; that I had been, given all of the workers.\nOur mood wasn't very nice about this, obviously because although we had no personal ambition we did not wish to be blamed for something that we were not responsible for, bad armament, and for the reasons of bad armament the war had been lost. That reproach, of course, we could foresee, and it was obvious that we fought against it with every means within our disposal. We felt ourselves to be quite innocent in this field, but in order to prove our innocence, we were without one link in the chain. That was to show beyond doubt that Sauckel's figures were untrue. They were not wrong by accident; they were deliberately forged in cur opinion because Sauckel wished to impress Hitler with his own efficiency as he was able to fulfill all the demands of Hitler in the sphere of labor.\nSauckel pursued that policy up to 4 January 1944. Only when there was a conference with Hitler on 4 January 1944, of which I was a participant, did. he there say for the first time to Hitler, \"Up to now I always fulfilled all your demands, my Fuehrer. Whether that will still be possible with the new demands of four million workers I can no longer guarantee.\"\nQ.Witness, we will come later to this conference. Now, I ask you to go back and to answer the question. Did the Central Planning Board have authority to request labor and. to distribute it?", "speakers": [ "Q." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2344, "page_number": "1875", "date": "13 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-13", "text": "A.A clear \"no\" to both questions. That request was only debated in the interest of Speer in the Central Planning Board because Speer needed help because he knew I would always give him my support. I had similar worries myself and because it was only possible even for Speer who, of course, had frequent discussions with Sauckel otherwise but Sauckel stated before this committee, that is, the Central Planning Board, in order to aid the iron association, and the coal association at times -- had them give us information. Speer could, as well as I could myself, answer to all of these sections but whether there was sufficient labor for coal for instance, the Reich Association Coal could tell us on the basis of their evidence down to the last man and that is how in these so-called -- those people of the Reich Association Coal or Iron.\nQ.Could you give us a few names?\nA.Herr Pleiger and Herr Reichling. The first coal and the second for iron and their staff. That's how these people spoke. These gentlemen were in a position after the meeting to inform Speer what Sauckel had misfigured.\nQ.Witness, during these conferences, however, mention was made of agriculture and labor and we need so many workers for the mining industry and will you use prisoners-of-war for this job. This gives us the impression of the Central Planning Board after all had some decision -- made some decision with regard to labor especially in the direction of how many workers were to be distributed into the basic sectors. That is, agriculture, coal and mining industries.\nA.By that I had to say that naturally it was very difficult for one man who had several tasks to look after to confine himself to one sphere only at all times if all his spheres of tasks are involved in one question and that is how Speer very frequently during the meetings of the Central Planning Board in his capacity as essential planner, he transformed himself into the armament Ministry or the Four-Year Plan and for Armament industry and then he transferred himself back into the Central Planner. Hardly at all and I don't think it is said anywhere even I put the armament demands of the Luftwaffe only in order to better understand matters I gave several impressions from my experience on those conferences for everybody's benefit.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2345, "page_number": "1876", "date": "13 May 1947", "date_iso": "1947-05-13", "text": "The demands and the wishes which we had were only brought forward to support Speer and they are exclusively concerned with increasing steel production. The majority of the people requested were concerned with coal, whereas certain individuals especially were concerned with iron. It is, of course, obvious that I in my position and with the general survey which we had I insisted in a strong manner to increase the production. I had to concern myself with that; that Germany would emerge from this war as well as possible and my philosophy there was to a large extent armament. As a Field Marshal I could not confine myself to declare; I am not interested how raw materials are being obtained; I am only interested how they are being distributed. I did not regard myself as a waiter who tells the guest; \"I am sorry. This is not my table.\" After all, a little more could be expected from me. The question that agriculture came into this had several reasons. Just before the agriculture was mentioned at all at the conference the extremely efficient Mr. Backe, who well knew his business, to find out together with him whether the workers who were to work in Germany could be looked after from the point of view of food because it would have been irresponsible to recruit workers who afterwards could not be fed properly in Germany. Secondly, agriculture had to surrender a great many people to the army. Perhaps the highest percentage of all after perhaps the forest economy. Conditions in agriculture from the point of view, of food, are always better in towns than in the cities. That applied also to German workers. Of course, the result was that we were very keen for agriculture to feed as many workers of the industry as possible. The workers did not have the opportunity to make up for lack of food from former times, even by high rations, of course taking into consideration that the food is always better than in the town, this applies also definately to the German worker in the industry and I know that Russian prisoners-of-war when they arrived in Germany, all this happened in 1941 - the summer of 1941 - went through a very bad period of eating. These men had persisted in their bunkers up to the last moment. They did not surrender one moment before it was no longer possible to fight back. These bunkers in cut-off areas arc very often without food for very long periods and once they are taken prisoners difficulties to supply them with sufficient food arose.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2346, "page_number": "", "date": "13 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-13", "text": "As prisoners-of-war they are taken in such quantities and the army had not been prepared for that. I myself went through the same thing; when the big numbers of German prisoners-of-war arrived in 1945 it was not possible for about ten days to give us any food at all and I know that wasn't due to bad-will but we at that time had not been tried by the bunkers. Therefore, these ton days of privation didn't finish us off but the Russians arrived in a starved condition out of the bunker battles and they needed a period of recovery so to speak, and that would only have been possible by employing them in agriculture. For that reason we contacted Backe in order to see whether we couldn't have Germans in exchange. Unfortunately, that wasn't arrived at but agriculture every now and then helped out a little bit especially in the winter of 1943 and 1944 because during the winter agriculture is not so much dependent upon people at all. Although the agriculture Ad not Ash to part with the people. They wished to feed their own people during the winter in order to have them back in the Spring. On those occasions Backe, at our request, would give us a general report on the European nutrition system. It was very interesting to all of us because that was always one of the more important points. If production had broken down that alone would have lead to the conclusion of the war as it did in 1918. That was the only reason why Backe turned up at the Central Planning Board meeting but Backe as far as those visits were concerned joined, so to speak, at his own. wishes, as he had not obtained enough steel. Too much bad been taken away from him for the armament program. If I recalled right he needed per month 40,000 tons of steel for his agriculture machines as a minimum stipulation. In all of the time ho had. never complained his agriculture didn't receive enough artificial fertilizer. The question of sufficient fertilizing on German soil -you elevate 30% more or less under the same conditions, Hitler's orders were to the effect to take the necessary material for fertilizer into the manufacture of 1877 explosives and as the demand for explosives went up the weight of fertilizer in agriculture become smaller and smaller and Backe, who held his own responsibilities strongly, that made him feel very dependent and so he tried to got us to support him as well as we could in the fertilizing problem.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2347, "page_number": "1878", "date": "13 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-13", "text": "", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2348, "page_number": "1879", "date": "13 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-13", "text": "As we ourselves were all armament people as the second profession, so to speak, such as myself, we asked State Secretary Koerner to look after the agricultural concerns when Backe wasn't there himself, which was usually the case. That, perhaps, was the only function which Koerner fulfilled, that he always reminded us, \"don't forget agriculture\", for Koerner was not concerned with any questions of armament.\nI understand that through these conferences we did not always remain on the strict basis of the Central Planning Board, but everybody who was there with us, who knew about these things, could quite follow the proceedings. Nobody ever had any doubts as to what the Central Planning Board had to do and what it didn't have to do. Everybody understood also that these worries of Speer's, which we shared, all of us, had to be balanced off against each other somehow.\nQWitness, perhaps in this connection we could, in order to clarify the situation, explain what the GL -- that is, the Air Ordnance master General -- had to do with the question of labor, in order to get a picture of your special sector and to show how the Central Planning Board was connected with it. How did you, coming from the GL, have the task to work on labor questions? Did you make requests, or did you only supervise the distribution of labor?\nAThe GL, already in peace-time, was in charge of statistics as to the number of workers within the aircraft industry or aviation industry. We needed that for several purposes, namely, in peace-time, to supervise balance sheets and accounts as to our demands to the industries. It was not always possible to quote fixed prices for new aircraft. For that reason, our contracts with industrial works, in all those cases where the prices were not quite fixed, were such as to make the industry submit all their costs and expenses to us. We then would tell the industry that we would guarantee, as far as the industry was concerned, profits and expenses.\nIn these accounts the wages were a very important point. In order to supervise that, there were trustee companies who were in charge of these things. We had to quote the figure of workers to those offices, because we were responsible for the tax money with which we paid for our armaments; and we had to exercise all possible controls, even when we had no suspicions that our industry would give us wrong figures.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2349, "page_number": "1880", "date": "13 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-13", "text": "However, I think that is probably the same in all countries.\nThis department looked after, so to speak, statistical figures in peace-time, and that was a part of the armament industry which went far beyond the expenses incurred by the aviation industry. In that time there was no Minister of Armaments; there was no Central Office in Charge of Armament. Therefore, the OKW had all factories on one list which were producing or would produce armament material at some time. That list consisted, in peace-time, of roughly just over five million workers. The OKW did not have any department for armament, apart from a higher staff; the OKW distributed these workers to the three branches of the Wehrmacht. I believe the Army got about two million and a half; the Navy about half a million or three-quarters of a million; and the Luftwaffe received two million. Many of the factories were involved in this which had never had anything to do with the Luftwaffe.\nNow, in a very stupid manner, this figure was carried on all the time and was revised month after month. As this had been ordered by the OKW and I was not very interested in the matter, I did not change this, but I always found it interesting to get the figure once a month to see whether it had become bigger or not. Throughout the period in which I was in GL, from peace-time onwards, the figures always kept to the two million limit and, if anything, it became less, or more. That was statistical fluctuation which one could supervise quite easily.\nI may add here, perhaps, that the whole of the aviation industry, which was part of our command--to whom we gave commercial orders and with whom we made commercial contracts--the whole of that industry consisted at the most of five hundred thousand people, the actual figure in which we were interested. That figure could only be arrived at by special measures I took, and if I wanted to revise it from time to time I had to get going at a special statistical machine, although that was the figure in which I was interested.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2350, "page_number": "1881", "date": "13 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-13", "text": "We from the Luftwaffe gave the industries which worked for us contracts. We asked them, to give an example, whether they could, in their work, produce 200 aircraft of the type fighter 109 for a month. The industry answered back, perhaps, \"No, not at the moment. The can, however, produce 150, but if we can build another factory which can be done in six months, then in a year from now we can easily produce 200.\" Then the price was discussed. When agreement had been reached there, the industry would say,\"But of course we depend on the material, whether we can get it or not; and secondly, whether we can also get another 500 workers\", to continue with my example, and so forth. \"Then, as soon as the new construction is finished, we shall need another 2,000 new workers.\"\nWe told them that as far as the material was concerned we would make allocations in accordance with the requirements, however, we had found that for one aircraft they had asked for 1.5 tons of aluminum, but from our comparative figures we thought that that could be done with 1.1 tons. In other words, for 150 aircraft they would only be given 165 tons of aluminum and not 225, as they had asked for. The industry would object and they told us that. We said not one more word but, \"Please go to the factory of so and so and just see how these people are working, and you will then be able to do it yourselves\", and that was that.\nAs far as the workers were concerned, we told then that they sould go and see the labor offices about their demands and also the Inspectorate for Armaments. And we ourselves-as far as we had their figures and those of other factories-at the end of the month we would go to Speer's armament office, where the figures from factores were derived altogether. Once we had checked up their figures before-hand, there was no sense in asking for more than was really necessary. And it was eq ually wrong if up to now I had asked for 100 workers because I needed then but I only obtained 20, that next time when I needed 100 I would ask to 500 in order to say that I only get my workers in the proportion of one to five.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2351, "page_number": "1882", "date": "13 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-13", "text": "These unnecessarily inflated figures were checked up by the man in charge of my statistics, together with my production man. They were compared and decreased as much as possible.\nQJust a moment. Will you please indicate some names? who worked in the statistics sector, and who was the man in charge of production questions?\nAThe statistical nan in the planning office was in the planning office, and at the moment I an afraid I can't give you the name, me probably changed quite often. It was not an important position in our department; he never reported to me directly, he was under the chief of the planning office.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2352, "page_number": "1883", "date": "15 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-15", "text": "The other man who was in charge of production was engineer Harertel, who has been here as a witness, and he was a very good export. He said at once the demands put out by industry are much too high. If they ask for five hundred, they can only really account for about eighty, for he saw how many aircraft could be produced by how many workers every where. He had practical figures to compare those things with. The department that worked on statistics, as far as I know, reported once a month, the figures to be compared with the figures with Spoor's armament office. There we found only the highest demands of the industry which came to Speer via the armament inspection, and my man said, we don't need that. From those figures, to call an example, which might have came from all sectors, let us say it was twenty thousand. Then he said we can answer for and support only seven thousand four hundred and thirty-one. Then the armament inspectorate struck not the surplus demands of the industry, for every body was only too pleased if he could put up lessor demands, because even the necessary lesser demands were not easy of fulfillment; that is to say, practically speaking, were never fulfilled at all. That is what the GL had to do officially with that whole question. Unofficially, it was a matter of course that each one of us who went to a factory would there talk to the workers, and saw whether help was necessary any where, which we could not give directly ourselves, but which we could apply for. Even in my period at the German Lufthansa I liked to talk to workers. Apart from that, a man like myself could only learn from these specialists. It was always a joy to me to talk to simple and sensible men with clear minds, who had no intention to get anything for themselves, who had no ambitions as far as I was concerned, who, as was usual with the Germans, would give their opinion of everything in a clear and frank manner. Uhnt I knew of politics, which wasn't much, I really learned from these talks with workers. Before 1933 half of my workers wore communists, that is to say, a large number of there later on became National Socialists before 1933, and the others were social democrats, trade unionists, etc.; and I heard quite different opinions than in my own circles.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2353, "page_number": "1884", "date": "13 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-13", "text": "Therefore, I always talked to these men during the war, and I also discussed politics with them, and that automatically went for me to the foreign workers. I speak a little French; I could make myself understood with these people, and I had an interpreter along when I talked to Russian workers, but these were present everywhere I went. That was the unofficial way in which I contacted the workers, and when I had conferences at the GL I always told these people that it was my wish for them to talk to the workers, and show an interest in them whenever they went in to a factory. As men in higher position, we could not overlook a wish which, or in case of difficulty, in which a man who worked in a factory might find himself, and that is the way I really think quite a number of questions were settled. I made claim, for instance, myself that throughout my activities, any way shortly after the beginning of the war, that is to say, on 9th November, there were about sixty production managers of factories; they are men of trust, elected by workers; these men came to me and I found out they wanted to ask me to get their rations increased. At that time the whole nutrition was based upon lower rations; these people in our high industries were not entitled to the supplementary rations for heavy workers, and these people explained to me that now that there is or was a war, and they were forced to work in different factories from peace time, for that reason their housing was much further away from their places of work, and in the morning and at night they had to travel longer; and, therefore, their food was insufficient. That gave me the idea to apply for a new supplementary ration and as we became very set in this question, it became possible to achieve that supplementary ration which was now for the benefit of all workers. And I have now gotten hold of documentary evidence that supplementary rations were also given to foreign workers; that was a supplementary ration for foreign workers working long hours. As this documentary evidence shows, it is an affidavit actually, that food of German and foreign workers was the same. But I also wanted to say that it is quite possible that there are cases where this principle was not observed. but that was against the will of the German government if it happened.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2354, "page_number": "", "date": "13 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-13", "text": "QWitness, that means that neither the labor office nor the armament inspectorate were under your supervision, as the GL.\n1884a", "speakers": [ "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2355, "page_number": "1885", "date": "13 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-13", "text": "A.Yes, that is quite correct.\nQBut Speer has testified that until the very end you did not renounce the command of the air industry. What could you say to this effect?\nAIf Speer should mean that my personnel official, in the way I described before, talked with his, Speer's armament office, once a month, then it is quite correct; but my officials might have used those occasions, and how far he worked with my name on those occasions I do not know. I hope he did so in order to get his point through. I was never present. I never heard how these negotiations went on. Should Speer mean, however, that my work in that field was the same as he in his field, then he makes a mistake, for I did not have that organization nor did I have the task. My field was only comparatively small and very specialized compared to Speer's field.\nQWitness, -\nAI might add perhaps, that Speer did not know my organization; of course he never discussed it. He knew, of course, that I had a technical office; he knew that I had a planning office, and he also know that I had an economic department for the contracts of industry. After all, he fought a battle to take the whole economic department into his sphere, and when I said he couldn't possibly do it, he waited until the whole armament industry came under his charge, as we two always settled everything in a friendly manner after that up to the last moment. Even if there wore a certain amount of conflicting interests which sometimes were quite considerable, particularly between our subordinate officers, there were quite severe battles between those subordinate officers at times, but we always poured oil on the troubled waters, Mr. Speer and I.\nQWitness, but couldn't it be, that a fine working of the Central Planning Board, you presented the labor demands of your industry, that is, you have talked for your own interests.", "speakers": [ "A", "A.", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2356, "page_number": "1886", "date": "13 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-13", "text": "AI cannot recall, and I have read some of the records, but in not one of them, there is not one word said that I had any special demands for the Luftwaffe. Apart from the fact that once or twice I remarked that I was equally badly off, I don't get anything, with regards to Sauckel for instance, but that doesn't mean that I was looking after my interests in the GL. If I talked about workers at the Central Planning Board, I said so at Speer's request, to give him in the armament industry all the support. Speer was particularly pleased when I played the wild man and became a little strong. He once told mo you are much better at this than I am; I am only a civilian; I can't do it as well as you can. And some times he pepped me up and said speak a little stronger, please, which I was only too delighted to do for him. That was meant to achieve something which you may wish to ask me a little later on about how we can get Sauckel to speak clearly. How can we get rid of the suspicion that we through our inefficiency cannot bring to German industry up to the high level, to the right level.\nQWitness, did you at all in the framework of the Central Planning Board would you present it individually of your own office, the GL, that is to say, or of the air force as a whole; was it rather your task to be a buffer party.\nAThe latter applies.As I said before the Navy wanted a representative of their own,and that was imitated soon by other departments; everything was turned down; so we after all didn't wish to become a party to where everybody formed his own party. I had to make efforts to be very neutral because otherwise there would be attacks against me brought to Hitler. Therefore, when questions of the Luftwaffe had to be put, that was only when the question of distribution of raw materials was concerned, for that was always the bone of contention between all departments.Then, to my so-called chief representative, my chief of my planning office, I ordered him to attend, and I had him report the wishes of the Luftwaffe, and then I was there as a neutral agency as it wore and listened and in certain cases when I saw that the demands wore impossible I said at once, refused the Luftwaffe demand, so that the others could see I was fair with the parties.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2357, "page_number": "", "date": "13 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-13", "text": "1886a", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2358, "page_number": "1887", "date": "13 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-13", "text": "Q.Witness, during these conferences of the Central Planning Board did it happen that the bulk of the workers was discussed, or was it rather a question of bringing new workers into Germany?\nA.No, it only was concerned with the labor question as such, only inasmuch as it was important for the increase of raw materials in accordance with Hitler's order, always meant as an attack on Sauckel in order to get him either to give us the people or to say he cannot do it. As we knew he could not supply them, our main demand which we wished to achieve was an open statement by Sauckel, \"I haven't got the workers whom you need.\"\n6. Witness, but if your air force industry, for instance, either the labor offices or the armament inspectorates had made requests to Speer, and when your Planning Office had checked these demands in order to find out what was really necessary and what was unnecessary in these general requests, was it a matter of proposing what kind of workers you wanted to have and what kind of workers should be distributed into these different production programs? Was it a question of deciding whether you needed German workers or rather more foreigners?\nA.We did that in one sense, that for certain factories we simply had to have skilled workers, which we asked for, but never did we ask, \"Give us foreigners; give us prisoners of war,\" and so forth. Our wishes were to the effect to have Germans, but it was quite clear to us that there weren't enough German workers to fulfill the demands. Had they been available, one needn't have used prisoners of war or recruited foreign workers or sent the prisoners of war to work unless they volunteered for it.\nQ.Several persons of your office have testified to this Tribunal that you made great efforts in order to receive German workers by rejecting and protecting them from being drafted into the armed forces. Was that in connection with the general requests by the factories, or was that a special general measure you took for the benefit of production of airplanes?\nA.The industry simply asked for workers, and of course they preferred to keep their own skilled workers or obtain more.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2359, "page_number": "1888", "date": "13 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-13", "text": "The action was taken quite independently of that. Each month at least once I saw the representative of the OKW or the army, for these tasks were looked after by the reserve army for the OKW, and I fought with this man to suspend the drafts into the Wehrmacht and to take the armament into consideration. Hitler's orders were so sharp that the men of the army entirely saw my reasons because the army worked under similar conditions, and they had to turn me down. But in some cases it was possible to persuade Hitler himself, either through Speer alone or perhaps I was there myself with him, that certain actions were taken to get soldiers back. All these people were specialists. As we went very cautiously and only demanded small figures, we asked for instance for 2,000 once or 4,000, and the maximum case was 12,000. And we told Hitler, only if we can got these people can we build the new gun or the new aircraft, or whatever it may have been. Then Hitler became so interested in the new gun or the new aircraft and he put that above his normal line of soldiers, more soldiers, and more soldiers. That was how the Luftwaffe got a few thousand workers back from the army. It was colossal work to do that. Everybody had to be applied for by name and address. The bulk of the people had been killed anyway; others were in hospitals, wounded; others were missing. In other words, we only obtained a fraction of the original demands, but as they were particularly good people, it was extremely valuable to us.\nQWitness, it has been testified to this Tribunal that at some time large numbers of workers were requested.\nAThat was an extremely exhausting and tiring work at that time and the people which we got back in this way were not given to us for the duration. They could be taken away from us any month, and new actions became again necessary to preserve these people. That, of course, gave us ideals in the course of events which were no longer to be answered for from the point of view of normal government. The biggest parcel of people which I ever achieved amounted to 40,000, and they were people who had been called up at Hitler's orders. But that was Luftwaffe replacements. The troops had asked for quite a number of people.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2360, "page_number": "1889", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "The restrictions which we had in the industry were unknown to the troops, and thereafter I had talked to Goering for a long time, the chief of staff and the army office -- that is an office in the Luftwaffe for reserve men. It was under Foerster. It was my own arrangement, actually, but I told Foerster that he must look after his own interests. That is how I had quite a struggle with Foerster on that point, and when he won all other points, on this one I won the day and I kept my 40,000. That,in relationship to the 500,000 workers, as we would put it vulgarly, was just a drop in the ocean. But I could not see how, without these people, I could keep the armament going. Then there was another big parcel of people. They were perhaps 15,000 men. Those I got from our intelligence chief - I must almost call it \"by cheating.\" At the point of a gun I told him that I would not build one single equipment for him unless he would give me those 15,000 men. As he, for his signal corps, had 500,000 soldiers without women, I had no compunction to press him. Had I been C-in-C he would have given me more, even. But those were the methods without which it wouldn't have been possible, and which really could get one down. Col. Eschenauer who wrote on those matters in the General Staff, quoted 70,000 as the total figure, and Gen. Vorwald, I think, also quoted a similar figure, which would, have contained the 40,000. That, anyway, is how I understood him. And one thing is quite certain. Never was there a bigger figure than 40,000, unfortunately.\nQThat is sufficient. Witness, only briefly now, what was the bulk, the mass of the workers which Germany could receive?\nAThey were German workers. They were -- I think these figures become quite clear from the record of the meeting of 16 February, I think it was.\nDR. BERGOLD:May it please the Tribunal, before I start a larger theme, it is only two minutes now, and I would propose that we take a recess now.", "speakers": [ "A", "DR. BERGOLD", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2361, "page_number": "1890", "date": "13 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-13", "text": "THE PRESIDENT:Recess until tomorrow morning at 0930.\n(The Tribunal adjourned until 14 March at 0930 hours.)", "speakers": [ "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2362, "page_number": "1891", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America against Erhard Milch, defendant; sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 14 March 1947, 0935. Justice Toms Presiding.\nTHE MARSHAL:All persons in the court room please take their seats.\nThe Honorable, the Judges, of Military Tribunal No. 2 Military Tribunal No. 2 is now in session.\nGod save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal.\nThere will be order in the Court.\nERHARD MILCH - Resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. BERGOLD:\nQYesterday at the end, we were discussing the activities cf the GL in the Central Planning Board with reference to the occupation of laborers and workers. Well then, you hinted at it yesterday that in the Spring of 1944 there came the decisive discussion with Mr. Sauckel, and I should like you to describe to the Tribunal now, first of all merely from the point of view of time, how these meetings came about, and what had been the cause for those rows?\nAI assume that you are now thinking of the 53rd and 54th Meeting?\nQYes, and you will tell the Court what happened from the beginning.\nAYou mean 1944 ?\nQYes.\nAAs I have already stated, Hitler had put the increase for the program at such a high level that 3.2 million tons of steel would have been required for it monthly, but considering the means at our disposal, only 2.6 million could be produced per month. On the 4th of January 1944; Sauckel had once again reported to Hitler that all requirements for workers which had come up in the previous period had been completely fulfilled by him. This meant strong contradiction of the reports which Speer and I had made on every occasion. Hitler, on the other hand, emphasized that we had no means of checking this and that the figures stated by Sauckel were the correct ones.", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2363, "page_number": "1892", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "For that, we would most certainly be in a position, and have to be in a position, to produce these 3.2 million tons of steel, thus increasing the output of armament material.\nThe Armament Ministry desired now at last to reach a clear understanding with Sauckel. We were not in a position to check Sauckel's figures because the statistics of the Armament Ministry were based on something quite different than those statistics Sauckel was making. In spite of every effort on Speer's part, Sauckel would not give us clarity regarding the origin of his statistics. As far as we were concerned, it was a necessity for the entire armament system-- I mean, in this connection-- that Hitler should be furnished with clear proof that Sauckel's figures were wrong, so that Hitler's demands too, regarding increased armament production, could not be justified either.\nSpeer, himself, had demanded this first conference. In the meantime, he had become ill, and I visited him, and I think it was the day before that he informed me that he briefly regarded the necessities he considered existed for this meeting. I, for my own sphere, which as far as this correction was concerned was only of secondary importance, had previously not known that such a meeting had even been arranged. It was during this meeting then that we were going to make preparations for the distribution of raw materials. It was high time too, because raw materials, which were being allocated quarterly, had to be allotted to the various priority holders at least six weeks before the beginning of the wuarter, and the 16th of February, therefore, was really too late as far as I was concerned. As far as we were concerned, we could only distribute 2.6 million tons for the second quarter of 1944, and it was only possible to arrange for an increase if Sauckel was really going to supply further labor for the coal industry. Consequently, in this case, Sauckel was going to be confronted with the very clear-cut question of at last being made to give a statement which would really determine the decisions regarding the distribution of raw materials.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2364, "page_number": "1893", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "This meeting on the 16th of February 1944, was not attended by Sauckel. He sent somebody else along , someone to whom he had given authority. It was during this conference that we were concerned, as I said before, with the question of forcing the Plenipotentiary for Labor to quote his workers figures. First of all, for the past period, the end of January and for the beginning, of February; secondly, for the remainder of the year, and likewise, for the second, quarter of that same year. I, myself, wasgoing to try to amend it. Speer represented this before Hitler. I wanted possibly to prove that the figures which Speer had mentioned, and as they were presented to Hitler by Speer on the 4th January, should be reduced, since I, myself, had, the feeling and was convinced, that the demand, made by Sauckel was really too high.\nIn other words, I was going; to try to reduce them to a reasonable level. In order to be able to do that more easily, I was going to use the other experts who were also present. They were invited by Speer, They included the Minister of Agriculture. There was the State Secretary from Reich. There was the Chief of the Reich Forestry Department. There were representatives of the reserve authorities, reserve departments for the any and airforce. The person definitely trusted by Hitler was the State Secretary from Ministry of Propaganda. During a certain period, in the past, the air raid precaution problem had been taken away from the Air Ministry and handed over to the Ministry of Propaganda.\nLet me repeat, also, that now we wanted to create a clear statistic report with Sauckel, so we at last could come to a mutual understanding. Furthermore, we were going to contradict the attack which Sauckel had made before Hitler aginst us because Sauckel had stated that much too much manpower was being used by industry, and that with their increased output, one could just as well manage with fewer people. It had been said on that occasion, that workers were standing about for days in various places because of lack of proper organization.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2365, "page_number": "1894", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "As far as my experience was concerned, I had a serious clash with Hitler about that. This led to the fact that through the armament industry, there had been an inspection in one of my plants which showed that all these attacks were not justified. Once Hitler was told of something like that, it was very difficult to talk him out of such prejudice. The outcome of this conference, then, brought the following results:\nOne, figures which Sauckel had stated as having been supplied to us for the first half of 1944 were basically untrue. On one occasion he had spoken of 145,000. On another occasion, of 160,000. In reality according to the statement of the chief of Speer's armament department, only 14.500 people had been supplied of that number. The difference with relation to the figures of just one month ago was significant as far as we were concerned and it coincided with our previously formed opinion. We were convinced that for time past, also, the relationship between Sauckel's reports and the real achievements had been exactly They entailed for us, in the Central Planning Board, the clear out conclusion, that under no circumstance could we expect an increased output of iron in the second quarter that year.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2366, "page_number": "1895", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "The best we could expect was the figure of 2,100,000 and we could not carry out Hitler's risk to increase it.\nThe second result was that the figures which were mentioned and which had been demanded by Sauckel could even be contradicted by means of questioning representatives from other ministries as early as that meeting; and the figure of two million workers for that year was reduced by 1,150,000 workers, that is to say, on paper. So according to the calculations which I made during that conference, only 950,000 laborers, instead of 2,100,000 could be regarded as really essential. Fluctuations through the transfer of workers from one plant to another, through alteration of programs had already been taken care of in the case of those figures. Later on the armament industry compiled some tables.\nQMay I have them put before you at this point?\nAThe armament industry compiled some table in which these figures of mine were increased a little. I had no knowledge of this subsequent increase.\nThe third point arising from this conference was that we dealt with Sauckel's statement to the effect that we had not been economical with workers which we succeeded in contradicting. It was essential to lay this down in order to be able to make a report to Hitler on the proper occasion about this. Those two sheets which have been submitted here -\nQWitness, the Exhibit number is at the top. Tell the Tribunal what it is.\nADocument NumberNOKW 198, Exhibit Number -\nQWould you mind letting me have it again? The exhibit number is NOKW-\nMR. DENNEY:Exhibit Number 51.\nJUDGE MUSSMANO:Which document book?\nMR. DENNEY:It is document book 2-D. If your Honor please, that is Prosecution Exh. No. 51 in evidence. It isNOKW-198. It is page 59.", "speakers": [ "A", "JUDGE MUSSMANO", "MR. DENNEY", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2367, "page_number": "", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "in Document Book 2-B. Perhaps it might help the witness if he had the original because if your Honors recall, this is the one on which some notations, were made in 1895a red pencil, and did not photastat.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2368, "page_number": "1896", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "If the witness would like to see the original, I will be very glad to ask the Secretary-General to get it for him.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2369, "page_number": "1897", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "MR. DENNEY: If Your Honors please, after the prosecution's Exhibit No. 51 in evidence, which isNOKW-198, and it is in page 59 of Document Book 2-B, perhaps it might help the witness if he had the original, because, if Your Honors recall, this is the one on which some notations were made in red pencil which were in photostat, and if the witness would like to see the original I will be very glad to ask the Secretary General to get it for him.\nDR. BERGOLD:Do you want the original or are you satisfied, with a photostat copy?\nTHE WITNESS:I am satisfied with what I have got. I assume that they must be identical.\nMR. DENNEY:Well, they aren't Chinese copies, Your Honor,because you can't file the numbers over other numbers. It is as close a copy as we could make. As Your Honors recall, at the time it was offered, the original was produced and handed to the Court.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Yes; I recall. But the witness doesn't seem to care for it. Unless he wants it -\nMR. DENNEY:I just wanted to make it clear in the record.\nDR. BERGOLD:Witness, apparently the figures are not enough to tally completely. Perhaps we better have the original.\nTHE WITNESS:But surely this is a photostat copy.\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes; that's what I thought.\nTHE WITNESS:In that case I would rather see the original.\nDR. BERGOLD:Your Honors, in the meantime, may I draw your attention to the fact that the statement made by the witness regarding the difference between Sauckel's reports and the real reports are contained in my document book, Document Book 1, on page 15 of the original of the Exhibit No.11. There in the passage where Weger is talking. It is that passage which the witness was making reference to. It's the minutes of the 53rd meeting of the board in my Document Book R-124, Exhibit No.11, and its page of the original.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Page 24 in the English Document Book.", "speakers": [ "THE WITNESS", "DR. BERGOLD", "MR. DENNEY", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2370, "page_number": "", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "DR. BERGOLD:Yes. Will you continue, witness? Perhaps you can continue your statement 1897 A", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2371, "page_number": "1898", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "THE WITNESS:Yes. May I draw your attention to the fact that there are two copies; one contains handwritten endorsements by me, the other does not have such endorsements, and I should like to request that the one with the handwritten endorsements should be looked at because that is the copy which was used during the meeting on the 16th February 1944. The copy filled in with a typewriter is a later one.\nDR. BERGOLD:Your Honors, are you not in possession of this table?\nTHE PRESIDENT:We have the one that is without the pencil notations on it. That's being brought down. We'll see it when it comes.\nDR. BERGOLD:In that case perhaps you had better make general statements about this meeting which you will have to make anyway. After all, certain criticism, which are of Sauckel's -- were being made during that meeting, and THE WITNESS: I can perhaps refer to some points which are of particular importance. First of all, I would like to state that as far as I was concerned, I was not interested in the obtaining of foreign labor during that meeting. General Weger, who has already been mentioned, who came from Speer's armament department, states, on page 1875, that continuously there was an influx of now programs which of course meant increased labor demands as an automatic consequence. I replied to this at the time that the allocation of materials had already been impeded and could therefore not be further increased, and that we weren't receiving any further materials, particularly since we were unable to -- . Consequently, this argument can't be put down to labor request problems, because considering that we weren't getting any additional material, we couldn't possibly need any additional labor. During this same conference I am also expressing clearly that the \"rideman\", I mean the branch of the armed forces; they were coming from the highest leaders as an order, and that it was a particularly difficult task to fulfill, and of course the personnel question was the most difficult one of all. Sauckel's representative, during his statements, and presumably he must have had his orders for that meeting from Sauckel, nevertheless admits - and this you can find on page 1911- that the General Plenipotentiary for Labour was being told, loudly, silently, directively and indirectly, that there were accusations against him, that all his figures 1898-A were just play figures, just acrobatics with figures.", "speakers": [ "THE WITNESS", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2373, "page_number": "1899", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "He were most agreeable to such a conception, because that corresponded absolutely with our conception, regarding the figures quoted by the plenipotentiary for Labor. I also stated during that same meeting, and you will find this on page 1931, just how important the presence of the Food Ministry and the Ministry sources such as Transport, and other departments would be. I am saying, none of us on his own is in a position to help Germany, and to see Germany through, only all of us together can do that.\nDR. BERGOLD:May I, Your Honors, let you have my copy at this point?\nTHE WITNESS:Do you want me to finish my sentence, which I just started?\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes; go ahead, witness.\nTHE WITNESS:I am saying that everything would have to be but right, and no purpose could be served if only one portion of Germany's economic system was in order and the other part was not. So that therefore, the many requests from individuals could never he fulfilled; that is to say, regarding the obtaining of labor from Sauckel or these sources and I go on to say that the organizations are not at 11 in a position to do so, namely, to supply everything that's wanted, but every one of us in his own particular sphere, would have to attend to those important points as a leader which would enable us to attend to these matters comparatively correctly and successfully.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Does the figure on the left of this exhibit, where there is a column of figures followed by the symbol MIO -- does that by chance mean millions?\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes; that's millions.\nMR. DENNY:Just so the record will be clear, Your Honor, the witness is apparently reading from something. I'd just like to have a statement from Dr. Bergold as to what the paper is. I believe it's a copy minutes of the Central Planning Board, but I would also like to have it appear whether the witness recalls it or whether he's just reading now from the record something that was produced in March or February 1944.", "speakers": [ "THE WITNESS", "MR. DENNY", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2374, "page_number": "1900", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "(Court No. 2\nDR. BERGOLD:These are extracts from documents which I have presented and he is quoting verbatim statements made by himself which of course he couldn't possibly remember accurately after so many years. He just quoted.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Mr. Denney is interested in knowing just what the document is that ho is using to testify from. What does ho have in his hand?\nDR. BERGOLD:He has in his hand written extracts which he himself has prepared from my document book, in this particular case, from Exhibit No. 11, which is the minutes of the 53rd meeting.\nTHE PRESIDENT:His own memoranda or compilation?\nDR. BERGOLD:That is correct -- which he has compiled; yes.\nTHE WITNESS:I did it, Your Honors, in this particular manner, so that this very long record of that conference should be shortened.\nTHE PRESIDENT:It's all right; we just wanted to know what it was.\nTHE WITNESS:Yes; and the words of mine which I am quoting here, I should like to explain briefly, there sense, that is, which they had at that particular time.", "speakers": [ "THE WITNESS", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2375, "page_number": "1901", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "I went on to say, \"It will be from this emergency that we will find ourselves forced more and more to forego things which have become dear to us.\" If new aims and programs appeared somewhere, then the consistency amongst the various branches of the armed forces was so large that they were anxious to retain old models at the same time. In other words, everything new was demended as additional material; and the troops had grown attached to the old things. In this connection I am trying to express the fact that we must form a total picture; and we must put into the foreground what is really important. We musn't manufacture every type of arms. We must only make what is important; and we must reduce our programs correspondingly. If everyone of us does that, and if we come to agreements about it amongst ourselves, then thus we will see the ceilings which we know will be too low, whereas the labor at our disposal will be enough. May I continue?\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes.\nA.Then, if I may ask you to look at the document which has a handwritten endorsement. That was the very copy which was used for the meeting of the 16th of February 1944, and which the Planning Bureau of Speer's Ministry and the planning Office of Speer's Ministry submitted. I assume that the figures inserted on the right originated from Speer's statistics or the Statistical Ministry. After that moment those figures in that particular form had been unknown to me.\nThe left-hand side has been left open, the reason being that we wanted Sauckel's representative to tell us the figures during that meeting. This was meant to be the preparation for joint statistics. Up tothat time I was meant to carry out reduction of labor figures which I, in contradiction even of Speer, who had previously made such requests, and in contradiction of Hitler's decision of the 4th of January, 1944, was intending to make. Now, on the left-hand side I put that note down which, according to Sauckel's statement, isn't applicable to the fourth quarter after the previous year, that is 1943, and has really been the design. That is followed by the figures 865,000.", "speakers": [ "A.", "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2376, "page_number": "1902", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "At the top it always states supplies of workers in thousands.\nQ.Witness, what you have just mentioned -- is that in handwriting?\nA.Yes, in handwriting, a handwritten note because we wanted to know from Sauckel what he was telling us.\nQ.Witness, whenever you quote figures, will you please say whether it is a printed figure or a figure inserted in handwriting so that the Tribunal is more easily in a position to find the point? You know it, of course; but we don't.\nA.Below that is again in handwriting a statement to the effect of what types of figures, what type of numbers of foreign workers, prisoners of war, and so forth compose the totals. This 865,000 entry consisted of Germans; and the 511,000 below are foreigners. The classification made according to nations, French, Belgian, and so forth hadn't been filled in. Then followed prisoners of war, 761,000, so that a total for the fourth quarter of 1943 which was supposed to have been reached was arrived at, amounting to 2,137,000, a figure which, as far as we were concerned, was never believed, even if the effect of that figure was due to so-called chance affairs or fluctuations. That is to say, people the mass of whom had already been working in Germany were now in the course of that quarter being shifted to another place. The fact that the figure around about that time, namely, the end of 1943, appeared to be very high was not a miracle. A large number of factories had been destroyed through bombing; and these workers from those factories were being sent elsewhere. Nevertheless, these figures go far beyond those which had been calculated by Speer's Armament Ministry; and the fact is that he was continuously being accused that the figures of GBA, the Plenipotentiary for Labor, were acrobatic.\nThen follows figures expected from the first quarter of 1944. That is meant to say, those figures, too, have been put in in handwriting by me. Would you just mind waiting a, minute? Go on, please. If you assume, then, that a total of 251,000 German workers, a total of that figure, would be expected, that includes fluctuations, and Sauckel's representative goes along and goes on to quote the following figures during that meeting.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2377, "page_number": "1903", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "He is expecting 135,000 French; 38,000 Belgians; 38,000 Dutch; 110,000 Italians; 150 Eastern workers; 12,000 miscellaneous workers; and that brings him to a total, including Germans and foreigners, of 749,000. Just like all the other gentlemen I inserted these figures into my copy during that meeting in order to get a clear impression.\nThen I made the remark which you can find under the heading \"Remark\" regarding what Sauckel's representative had mentioned under figures obtained by now, that is, during January; and this figure, which is under the heading \"Germans\" at the top, refers, however, to the entire page, that is, workers altogether. He states that in January a total of 145,000 workers arrived. That was again taking into consideration fluctuations. He never states in that connection which were really new arrivals; and this figure deviates from a figure states previously which he had reported to Speer's armament office and which was 160,000. That was the figure of which General Weger from the armament department states that it was all untrue -- only 14,500 altogether have ever arrived. Here we come to a point where we quote Sauckel having given untrue reports.\nThen below that there is an explanation of the items which make up that 145,000. It says 40,000 bombing injuries, that is, people in factories which had been damaged, factories which had been destroyed. That 40,000 must be taken into consideration.\nQ.What do you mean, \"taken into consideration\"? Are you talking about workers?\nA.Yes, those are the factories, those are the workers from factories of which he says they can be newly introduced into the figure because they are from old factories which have been knocked out. Then he states that he is expecting 16,000 Italians; and he also states that, owing to fluctuations from factories which were not destroyed, there will be a transfer of workers numbering 50,000.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2378, "page_number": "1904", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "I went on to say that if he wanted to stand up to the conclusion that he states; if he wants to fulfil his program for February, he will need another 500,000 workers for February and March of that year. But, of course, about those no news was available at the time to the effect of whether they were going to come or whether they were not. On the other hand, if I compare this figure with the asserted figure of 145,000, then I could see that it would be most difficult for February and March to place at the disposal of industry another 500,000.\nBut I did see much more clearly, considering that he had only really supplied 14,500. That is the sense of the statement here. It would be a certain impossibility to attain 500,000 workers in February and March, that is to say, as far as I was concerned. These figures made it abundantly clear that the considerable increase of steel demanded by Hitler for the second quarter of 1944 would fall down because of the shortage of labor. It is at that moment and at that time that I came to the decision that the steel contingent should not be increased in the quarter but that if anything the amounts for the first quarter should definitely be distributed to priority holders.\nThis was decidedly one of the most important tasks for a man from the Central Planning Board. My responsibility was all the greater since unfortunately Speer because of his sickness could not be present during that meeting. Since both Funk as well as Koerner were not up-to-date on this subject, the weight of this task during that meeting was entirely upon my shoulders. Then I wrote below once again -- that is in my handwriting. That means on the first quarter of 1944 Sauckel is expecting approximately 650,000 men. That means 145,000 for January and 500,000 which he only is going to try to get hold of for February and March. Once again I reduce this figure by 100,000 with reference to the statement he just previously had been making, namely, what he thought he was going to be able to place at our disposal during the first quarter of 1944.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2379, "page_number": "1905", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2380, "page_number": "1906", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "May I have your permission to ask whether I have explained sufficiently and clearly the Sauckel figures which were written on the moon, which could not even through a superficial possible check to be found to be correct.\nQ.Mr. Witness -- I am perfectly convinced.\nA.On the same page on the sheet I have also mentioned in handwriting, just what Berg is describing as Sauckel's plan for the entire year, in connection with which Sauckel probably first of all quoted the last figure at the bottom, because there we have those four million approximately of workers, and 200,000 of which were entirely of Hitler's demand made on 4 January, and he asked Sauckel what figure he wanted to serve, and that he, Sauckel, wanted 1.5 millions of the Italians to be brought alone. Sauckel was making apologies during that meeting that he was trying with Italy first of all to come to an agreement about this question of armament. He expected one million to be expected from France, and he referred to the agreement made with Lavalle; expected 250,000 from Belgium, and 250,000 from Holland. Once again based on the agreement existing with the two governments in question, then he refers to these figures to bring 600,000 people from the East, and that he would also additionally mobilize 500,000 Germans. That is adding, and I am coming to the part there where the man said, \"Wait a minute, we have to have 100,000 from the Balkans.\" I said, \"All right, that makes it two millions.\" Now there is an additional statement from what has already been said during the Hitler conference, on January 4th, which was about the date of it, that 2.5 million people would be necessary coming from a fluctuation, which would also be able to take care of the fluctuation; but I repeat that it would be not new laborers, but it means the old German and foreign workers we already had, and who were already working in Germany's economic program. Below that we serve 1.3 million new workers, and that refers to an order made during the Hitler conference, which also corresponds to the demand made by the Armament Ministry of Speer, ordered there at the time, and also been referred to as Speer's figures in these minutes.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2381, "page_number": "", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "They were supposed to be obtained now, and then there is the figure of 250,000 a special demand 1906-A made by Hitler personally, which arose from the meeting of the 4th.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2382, "page_number": "1907", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "The idea was that these people were to be used for anti-aircraft construction work on behalf of the population, and I think that Hitler on that occasion said, \"I want 100,000 of those in Vienna alone to be taken from the population there to make bunkers for the population. This total figure then was four million fifty thousand, and I wrote below that Fuehrer conference, \"The Fuehrer Conference Special.\" On the right hand side you will find the figure which had been previously inserted with a typewriter. These figures gave the total figures of laborers in Germany at the time. At the head there is Agriculture, then Forestry, then Armament and War Production, and, then under numeral III and so on, I think I don't need to go into this in detail, but it is quite interesting, I thought, the total, as then being mentioned, which at the time was on 31 May 1943, was actually available. I presume that was the last account that was available, which were up to date, something which at first was something one could not justify, either, because that particular fact after all was not available, and changes taking place, as you know, were very rapid. Altogether 35,901,000 workers were available in Germany. This built up in male Germans about fifteen-one-half million, and the female just fourteen million, a total of not quite thirty million. Then follows the foreigners, male 3,119,000 and the female 1,460,000. Then follows the column Prisoners of War, 1,585,000, and then we come to the new column, that is, who is going to get these workers during the first quarter of 1944. Sauckel's figures named the amount for Agriculture, and to him what could be drawn into that figure. Speer's Armament Department so far as these figures meant had obtained these figures previously from Sauckel, and they had put them here in the document, so that we can see that Agriculture was asking for 200,000. Forestry and Timber industry was 48,000; Armament and War production, including those of coal and iron, and all of that, and also the building industry, and the power industry have 1,700,000 and then an additional 100,000 with reference to the place at the bottom was for removal of air raids, and they would fall outside the Reichsministry for Armament and War Production. In other words, outside of the actual organization of Speer's sphere, this one point certainly did not account to Speer the air force figures, that is obtained altogether in this industry in the Speer Department, because it is not listed and the air force industry, its command of the organization did come under Speer's Ministry.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2383, "page_number": "1908", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "Then follows Traffic, 70,000 and then comes Distribution, that is Commerce, Banks, Insurance and such, 60,000. That is followed by the Administry figures. From that figure for Administration Civilian and Administration Military, the Military Administration is asking for 126,000. This is a certain total regarding the demand for the first quarter of '44, at the bottom was about 2,104,000 and this was the form in which it was handed to me for that meeting. That is right at the side, and then the discussion showed in Administration, after that named figure I asked -- first, Mr. Backe if he was in actual need of this 200,000 people straight away, he answered yes because these are people I have placed at the disposal of Armament workers for the winter, but in addition I need another 200,000 for the rest of the year, that is later on, not during the third quarter. Immediately preceding they did make a new request which did not interest us a bit. Then followed Forestry, 48,000. I did account for what it was. Then there are two columns, and down there in my handwriting, one is Alphos the Chief of Forestry 25,000 and one is 15,000. Mr. Sauckel is stating those figures talked of Forestry, and when I calculated on 40,000 I then saw that 8,000 can be saved in this connection.\nThen followed point three, Armament and Work Production, where it states at the bottom 1.7 millions. Following that I have written at the top of the document \"Immediate requirements 544,000.\" Then the remark further to the right is not connected with this. That was some additional calculation I made later, which does not belong to this story -- this part of the story. Your Honors will be able to see from the figures at the bottom of the second sheet, that instead of 1.7 millions, I only put down 544,000, as being justified, from my point of view; and the figure which is below 1.7 millions in the entry which was made of 100,000 required, in that form I accounted approximately for 15,000, but actually it was 14,735; this reduction I made. The figures for the Transport System, 70,000 I struck off, after having discussed it with the experts.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2384, "page_number": "1909", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "Likewise, with the Banks and Commerce, to ask for 60,000. I struck that out, too, because I saw that number was not justified for the war. Then in the case of the Administration, the demands were being made by representatives who were present, and who were stating that it was with those figures they could not do anything, which was out of the question, and then there is Public Administration, which had the figure 0 before in addition in the document now suddenly demanded 62,000, and for the Military Administration the demands were made from 130,000 and that was an increase of 4,000, and set at the bottom of this were the stab and anti-aircraft auxiliary figures. The OKW were asking for 80,000, and out of that figure 46,000 of this went to the antiaircraft auxiliary, who were, of course, the German girls - GL, to be asked for by that Ministry there, which was in that connection an increase, so that in the end we arrived at an increase of 192,000, and that is the figure I put down in that manner, because I could not make any reduction for the OKW and my own Ministry in this connection, because on the one hand I could not overlook the reality and necessity of this request, and, secondly, because we were interested in the German girls who were possibly not employable in other spheres, since Hitler in the war employment of German women, even at this particular time, had imposed and was maintaining far reaching restrictions.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2385, "page_number": "1910", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "If Your Honors will then take the second page, which is executed on the typewriter and which, as I said, I could not check since it seems to have appeared later, then Your Honors will find on the left under the heading of \"Necessary Requirements for the Fourth Quarter\", inserted with the typewriter, the same figure which I had inserted in handwriting in the older copy, namely, 2,137,000.\nIn the following column final requirements are listed, and there my figure of 650,000 is calculated more accurately at 645,000, and that is put at the top as the final requirements of the Plenipotentiary for Labor; that is, Sauckel. But, opposed to my statement from the first sheet where 645,000 was meant to be the total of that calculation, one apparently obtained new figures from Sauckel, so that only 645,000 Germans are shown at the top.\nIn connection with them, I am perfectly convinced that there is a mistake of logic on the part of Speer's Planning Office, because quite certainly it was impossible to raise so many Germans during that particular quarter.\nThen at the bottom Polish seasonal workers for agriculture are listed, amounting to 60,000. As has once been explained in this courtroom, even in peacetime seasonal workers were always coming from Poland; harvesters, that is, and the total number of suck workers exceeded the figure of 60,000.\nThen there is the new insertion on the returns from the armament and agricultural system, the figure of 200,000, so that final requirements here amount to 905,000, which, however, could, not in reality even be remotely expected. However, we did not have any documentary evidence of our own; not even Speer did. This had to be accepted in the shape in which Sauckel or his representatives reported.\nQWitness, perhaps at this point there could be a short interval, for presumably this is going to take ten minutes, is it not? Just as Your Honors wish, of course.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Let's go on for ten minutes.", "speakers": [ "THE PRESIDENT", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2386, "page_number": "", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "A.The only possible comparison necessary is that of the three small columns on the right which deal with the first quarter in 1944. There appears 1910-A quite suddenly and contrary to the statements which I had made during the meeting, under agriculture an additional 130,000, for the group dealing with the use and distribution of foodstuffs, so that agriculture suddenly leaps up to 330,000.", "speakers": [ "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2387, "page_number": "1911", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "My estimate had not been accepted by Speer's Ministry, and I think that is clear proof that the figures which I had put it and suggested originally did not represent instructions or orders but merely proposals and that Speer's official considered himself to be completely at liberty to deviate from those proposals of mine without informing me personally of such action. This is nothing extraordinary. It was a perfectly ordinary procedure.\nThen follows the list by industry with 40,000 in accordance with the proposal, and then comes the large scale reduction for armament and war production, where my suggestion of 544,000 is adopted. The reduction I made for the traffic system was understood, I assume, because the 85,000 had been put under the Air Raid Precautions, which is only 1,700,000, and they put 85,000 at the bottom. During distribution my proposal is followed, and that figure is struck off.\nFor public administration the reported figure of 62,000 had somehow been reduced to 27,000 in Speer's department in the meantime, but my other figure of 130,000 for the military administration is now suddenly increased to 165,000, because, as it says at the bottom under Remarks, the German Red Cross is asking for 35,000 Red Cross auxiliary workers. However, in order to stay within the 192,000 which is the total, one is shortening the administrative figure so that the final figure remains the same in this column.\nThe total at the bottom, including everything, however, departs from 2,400,000 and goes down to 1,291,000.\nNow, if my suggestion had been followed, then it would have decreased to 950,000, so that Speer's Ministry was considering approximately 550,000 more than what I had said to be justified, and this meant the last word on this question having been spoken. My suggestion had been partly met, but I had been particularly interested in reducing the figures for armament and war production, and that I had been successful with.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2388, "page_number": "", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "Most of all, if you consider that fluctuation figure, it had, at any rate, amounted to more than 60 per cent of the total requisitions -something shown in the first column -- and if you consider a fluctuation of 2.5 million of these Hitler workers, that is, 1.3 million workers whom Speer had newly acquired and 205,000 of Hitler's other workers, this meant nothing more than that 540,000 for armament and war production were already in existence through transfers, amounting to 550,000 people who were already there, whereas Sauckel was faced only with the task of newly producing 250,000, approximately, for that quarters, but I have said that if he was supplying 40,500 for January and was not supplying many more for February and March, he would probably supply 50,000, and that meant that an increase of the program through Hitler for the armament program could not be carried out and must, therefore, be pictured in that manner in the reports from the Central Planning Board.\nAt the side of this column on which I have just reported there is another column containing suggestions for allocations. It ends at the bottom, 950,000 which can be expected for allocation, and that figure corresponds with the left hand side where once again, as was to be expected for the first quarter, 950,000 are quoted.\nIf I look at this, I become aware of the fact that on the right hand side one first of all proceeded to say, \"Let's give these people about 900,000 in order to meet their most urgent demands,\" but one also says that armament and war production are not going to get the 544,000, but only 400,000, and administration -- that is all these girls for antiaircraft work which were to be 192,000 -- they were only to get 55,000, so that at the bottom through these reductions we arrive at 905,000, and that is the figure which on the left hand side Sauckel's man had probably inserted after the meeting of 16 February and submitted to Speer's Planning Office as their total which they were hoping for and had to expect.\nFinally, with reference to this part of my testimony, may I say that with reference to the second thing which, of course, I must have had a copy of, I did not take cognizance of it at all. So far as I was concerned, the 1912 matter was settled when the meeting was over, and all I had to know about the whole problem was clear:", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2389, "page_number": "1913", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "Namely, an increase of the armament program was not possible, that I as the responsible person during Speer's absence, would no longer distribute more steel, as had previously been the situation, and thirdly, that I had the inner satisfaction of being able to show these various people, with reference to their high figures, that I could push them down and that I was able to prove to them that their demands were excessive, and fourthly, I knew now that Sauckel's figures were untrue and that the next time when Speer or I reported to Hitler I could now give an accurate report of this, namely that the increase of the armament production is not dependent on the raw materiel allocations nor is it dependent on Speer's production of raw materials. After all, I did have to protect Speer when he was absent. The reason for the lack of increase is contained solely in the question: Sauckel can not furnish any more workers. We can not increase our worker total; according to these figures we are already in difficulties. Regarding the combating of fluctuations, I must point out that from now on the armament program, too, will decline, because figures relating to workers will have to decrease as times goes on.\nTHE PRESIDENT:There.\nTHE MARSHAL:This Tribunal is in recess for fifteen minutes.", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2390, "page_number": "1914", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "THE MARSHAL:Tribunal No.2 is again in session.\nBY DR. BERGOLD:\nQ.Witness, you told us now about the way this session was carried out, mainly the 53rd Session of Meeting of the Central Planning Board, and that was later on either confirmed or partly altered. Now I want you to finish your statement concerning the 53rd Meeting and to go into details.\nA.For the time being I must rectify a certain figure. I have said before that Sauckel in January, in reality would have only brought 14,500 people. However, I looked it up in the records and there were only 13,500 people. From this record, it can also be seen what we thought was the main thing of the whole work. I say that, \"For the time being, the defense -- the home defense -- must be brought into order,\" and by this I mean the air defense. \"Only then, we have the possibility to have a basis on which we can rearm and be able to wage a war and which we can live on and be able to continue our work. And it is here that the Luftwaffe must come into action by throwing the enemy out of the home land. We must see to it and try to avoid that the armament industry and whatever goes with it, namely the homes, etc., are not destroyed. The destruction of the homes and of the living possibilities for the workers are bottlenecks against which we have to fight.\" I must point out this sentence because I will show later on that this was one of the points of my main program. In this record, there are many words which come from me which point to the question of the unit statistics.\nI say, for instance, \"It is important that clear terms are created, not only for ourselves but also for the gentlemen higher up.\" By that I meant Hitler and Goering. And then I suggest, \"Couldn't the Planning Office,\" namely, Speer is meant by that, \"together with the Plenipotentiary for Labor, and you, General Waeger,\" that is the Armament Staff or Office of Speer,\" \"Couldn't you clarify the question of the terms which we have to enforce here?\" And in order to get a clear cut picture, namely what is the assignment, what is the additional demand - in other words, multiplication - what is the fluctuation, etc., etc., when this is cleared, we have a secure basis for our discussion.", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "A.", "Q." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2391, "page_number": "", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "I wish to remind you of the discussion of the Reichsmarshal in Obersalz 1914A berg where there was a meeting--rather, the meeting did not succeed due to these unclarities and nothing happened therefore.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2392, "page_number": "1915", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "These statistics have to be based on that, and I might add at this point, apart from this conference in the Obersalzberg with Goering, there was one or more other discussions with ministers. They all failed because everyone who was there started out from a different basis, namely, it was the Tower of Babel. Every one of them spoke in a different language a language which the other one couldn't understand, and there was nobody there who could have interpreted. Sauckel's deputies also answered on these wishes that the Gauleiter Sauckel, as of the first of January 1944, intended to create such statistics. It was, according to our opinion, a little bit late.\nThen, concerning the fighters, Sauckel's deputy, Mr. Berk said once, \"Sauckel has actually brought three million additional workers for the industry in Germany than they had before.\" I believe that Sauckel, in the Spring of 1942, had been appointed. We were then in February 1944; in other words, it was a month and a year, and ten months of his office. Mr. Kehrl from the Planning Office of Speer says, \"He has no new figures,\" when Sauckel had been there for one year. There was only one million. However, in 1943, the whole thing with the labor assignment became worse. \"He wants to say that; however, he doesn't express it. It is absolutely impossible that in these ten months two million additional workers could be brought, and he could not possibly have brought that figure. And then later on I shall come back to a figure which will stress that point.\nThe gentlemen were getting excited, and I try to calm them saying again that, \"The figures, no matter how inaccurate they are, are insufficient.\" I still think it's a progress because the figures we had so far were still more inaccurate and worse. Then there was, where we urge him to give us more accurate figures--that means Sauckel's deputy, Berk--\"That the wage scales with the foreign exchange situation do not have a sufficient urge for the workers from the East, namely, to volunteer for the Reich.\" In other words, because of this foreign exchange, these people did not want to come to Germany.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2393, "page_number": "", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "This is one of the typical ways how Sauckel's people spoke in these meetings; namely, that they repeatedly expressed the point mainly that these foreign laborers 1915A came on a voluntary basis--absolutely voluntary--and if not their wishes were fulfilled on the monetary or foreign exchange question or problem, they would not fulfill their wishes and would not come.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2394, "page_number": "1916", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "Then again comes General Waeger from the Armament Office, by using strong words and expressions of indignation, when they say to those higher-ups, \"You have received 160,000 people assigned to you.\" However, in reality, there were only 13,500. Sauckel's deputy says, \"I have to reserve myself the right for those figures.\" However, he is not in a position to conceal those figures, and apart from that, he only brought 145,000 instead of 160,000, which he said. I asked General Waeger if these 13,500 laborers or workers were additional ones; in other words, if they were new workers, and he says, \"No, not at all; all together. Whatever was brought in by red slips.\" in other words, the people who had already been working in Germany were comprised within that figure of 13,500. Then, in order to show you how very unclear these terms were, the fluctuation consisted of two parts; namely, a real one and a faked one. I asked, because this is not very clear to me, \"What is the real fluctuation?\" By that I mean these people who actually come from the whole working process, while the faked fluctuations were those who went from one factory to the other. Nobody could answer my question.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2395, "page_number": "1917", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "Then it is in the record again just like in any other record, that a request was made by me that we first of all must organize German workers. I say to that, if we looked at all these figures which were submitted to Sauckel, one gains the feeling that these labor requirements are absolutely impossible in their nature. It concerns the four million which we requested.\nAnd I continue, it strikes me here that the house economy has an additional number of workers, 810,000. I might add here that apart from those forms which we have here, there were five or six large charts which had been pointed on the wall and which contained all sorts of statistics. That is where I was able to get that number, namely, the figure of 810,000. They were on the wall during the meeting of the Central Planning Board. The most interesting of them all is the last figure, namely, that of the employed German Women.\nIt is absolutely in favor of the mobilization of the German women for work and for armament. That can be seen. I continue, we have to say that these Russian prisoners of war, officers, namely, are right, to have been given the possibility to look around or look about in Germany.\nUpon the question which struck him most, he said in Russia, they wage a war with 100 per cent of their population, whereas, in Germany, not even 40 per cent is used. Then I say that is not due to the German people because the German peoples acts in such a mature way, particularly in larger cities, that one can only praise them.\nThen I return to the figure of the maids. This figure, in my opinion, is much too high. 950,000 Germans are included. Sauckel's deputy says to that the Fuehrer is against the assignment of women labor for biological reason. I told him what I was trying to do was to follow Hitler's decrees or directive, namely, to activate these women in such a way that they can take the place of men. This should be possible without any difficulty.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2396, "page_number": "", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "After that passage, I say, in the Luftwaffe, for instance, I have found out that Junkers, with respect to the figure of women he had before the war, not even been able to keep up that figure. In reality, the number of German women who today are at the disposal of the war economy is not quite as high as what other countries are able to produce, and what actually would be 1917A necessary in our country also.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2397, "page_number": "1918", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "There are still reserves which Sauckel could actually activate. With reference to the entire picture, I could see from the chart which was on the wall, that the armament and the war production figures sunk from 100 during peace time, until 89. That is the percentage.\nI mentioned here that additional German people or German forces could be mobilized in the Ministries.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Dr. Bergold, this has deteriorated into a trial of Sauckel's business acumen. It is far beside the point in which we are interested. I think you should bring it to a conclusion fairly quickly. It is interesting to know what difficulties the armament ministry had, but that is not the purpose of this Tribunal. Much of this material was no connection whatever with what we are determining. I suggest that you make it brief. I think you will have to take charge of the examination and not let the witness have his head.\nDR. BERGOLD:I wanted to do that, Your Honor. I thought it too long myself. I wanted to stop it.\nQWitness, we are not so much interested in all these details; that is not the question. I want you to look at the 54th Session or 54th Meeting. There was another discussion there concerning labor assignments. Why is that such a short time after the 16th of February there was another meeting concerning labor assignment?\nAAfter the 16th of February, it had not been possible to be able to get some sort of a result from Hitler. When he gave his consent, the increase of armament stopped. Sauckel, in the meantime, had returned from Italy on the 29th of Feb. I was called to the meeting of the first of March suddenly. That invitation also came from Speer's Ministry. Speer was in a hospital that evening, approximately 80 kilometers from Berlin. Speer told me that Sauckel had started this counterattack against Hitler by declaring that the bringing of workers from the exterior, from abroad, was failing due to the fact that Speer had protected factories both in Italy and France.", "speakers": [ "A", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2398, "page_number": "", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "QJust a moment. I would like to have one thing corrected. The witness said Sauckel went over to attack--by that he did not mean counterattack 1918A against Speer and Milch.", "speakers": [ "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2399, "page_number": "1919", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "AAnd Speer then asked me to defend Speer's factories and ours. The whole meeting concerns this question:", "speakers": [ "A" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2400, "page_number": "1920", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "Sauckel wants to have the protected factories eliminated and Mr. Kehrl and I are working against him. Sauckel says if these protected factories are left alone, then the whole labor assignment will collapse.\nQJust a moment, Witness, would you answer this question at this point: Did the Luftwaffe, with reference to protected factories, install them before Speer took them over, or did that happen at the same time? Did it happen to many of them or all of them?\nAThe Luftwaffe in 1941 already installed protective factories in France. And the whole time, they fought against taking workers from France. Speer at that time took over the system. I repeat, Speer took over the system from us. Our system was comparatively small. It confined itself to the industries producing planes in France. Speer's building up of the whole affair was a little more difficult. In order not to be able to get laborers from France into Germany he transferred civilian production to France, also for the German population.\nQThank you. Continue.\nTHE PRESIDENT:That is where the trouble comes, you see. You just turned him loose now. You told him to continue. Ask him a question, then you will keep him controlled.\nDR. BERGOLD:Your Honor, I just interrupted him in order to be able to clarify the question of the installment of protected factories. He declared that the struggle of the 54th Session or Meeting, only concerned attacks by Sauckel. To protect the attack of Sauckel on these protected factories, Sauckel said to the Fuehrer, \"It is not my fault. I am guiltless. The blames lie on the protected factories.\" I wanted him to explain this in detail.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Let us make sure of this. The protected factories were those from which the workers could not be drafted or taken?\nDR. BERGOLD:That is correct. They could not be drafted from there.\nTHE PRESIDENT:And Sauckel had been attempting to get workers from the protected factories in France and elsewhere?", "speakers": [ "A", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2401, "page_number": "1921", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "DR. BERGOLD:Yes. After they found out that so far he had not told the truth, he apologized to the Fuehrer by saying that because of these protected factories, he was prevented from bringing laborers from France into Germany.\nTHE PRESIDENT:All right.\nQWitness, please give us these details in short because the main subject of the 54th Meeting concerned the protected factories.\nASauckel says that he would not be able to get more workers. In order to state an example, he states until the 30th of may he wanted to bring in one million Italians. However, in two months, he had only been able to receive seven thousand. He said then, \"If I am not given a chance to take the Frenchmen from protected factories and bring them to Germany, then I cannot fulfill my program, and it is your responsibility.\" He placed the responsibility on Speer's shoulders. The deduction of those protected factories was a mistake which was disturbing the entire interest.", "speakers": [ "A", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2402, "page_number": "1922", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "QThat's sufficient. Now, witness, did this 54th meeting have anything to do with the redistribution of the workers or did they have anything to do with the alteration of the results of the session of the meeting of the 16th of February?\nANo. The attack which had been carried out by Sauckel before and after that, against Hitler, had to be cleared by us, as being unjustified. Therefore, I protested against Sauckel, and I did not make any concessions to him with respect to these protected factories. This will be seen later on.\nQWe had already read those?\nAYes. That is the most important part of this meeting because now Sauckel could not possibly, with a good conscience, be able to keep up his statements with Hitler. However, if he was sincere we could be helpful to him and later on this happened with Hitler.\nQWitness, I shall come now to details with respect to those documents introduced by the prosecution. The prosecution has introduced documents from which one can think that the Central Planning, in spite of everything you said, had something to do with the labor distribution, and not, as you said here, for the larger part, acted for information and clarification purposes. I would like to start out from the document of the prosecution, namely in a chronological manner. We ought to be able to clarify all those points. In these documents, the meetings are somewhat muddled up. I shall refer now to the 11th meeting of the Central Planning Board, Document No.R-124, Exhibit 48, and this is in the index of the prosecution, namely in Book No. 3, on the second page, the second document from the top. It's on page 88 in the German.\nMR. DENNEY:Page 41-42 of Document Book 3-A.\nQ (Cont'd.) Witness, this meeting is of the 24th of July 1942. What this meeting deals with is not entirely clear and cannot be seen from this document. However, Sauckel was present, and now they discussed the point here, namely, Sauckel said that these Russian prisoners of war are coming in hesitantly. Then it says, General Field Marshal Milch takes it on his shoulders to expedite the bringing of Russian prisoners of war from the camps.", "speakers": [ "A", "MR. DENNEY", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2403, "page_number": "1923", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "Prior to that they had discussed the point that these people be used in coal mines. Would you take a position as to that, why you took that over?\nAThat is how it happened. Some office said \"Russian prisoners have been assigned to us by the OKW. However, somehow the transportation question does not seem to be settled. They should have been coming for weeks and however none of them has arrived as yet.\" Then Speer said: \"Why don't you be so kind and tell the OKW?\" Nothing happened however, and I didn't do it either. That was up to the armament office, that was the military liaison office of Speer's. The record is misleading, has been misleadingly taken up here. However, I had no misgivings whatsoever to tell the OKW by telephone. Many of these people are complaining about the fact that they do not get their workers. However, I did not see why I had to take over the job of a higher ranking general, namely something that belonged to his field of tasks.\nQWitness, in the same meeting--just a moment--now, this is in my document book, namely it is Exhibit No. 5 of the Document Book 1 of the defense. Speaking of an additional amount of workers of 1 million so many that are expected at any moment, and for which the full supply had to be arranged for. It says here that this million of workers has not come in yet, and---. In this conference, did anybody say that these people, namely that these civilian foreign laborers came into the Reich on a non-voluntary basis?\nAI do not remember that. They always mentioned the fact that they were either State contracts or single contracts which had been concluded on a voluntary basis.\nQThe prosecution then introduced Document No. 396PS, which discusses the 16th meeting of the Central Planning Board. This is in the index of Document Book No. 3, as the last item but one in this index. It's the meeting of the 23rd of October 1942, with respect to coal, and here they speak about requirements of labor for coal mining purposes.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2404, "page_number": "1924", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "QWitness, during the middle of this there is a remark of Speer's. Speer mentioned the fact that for coal mines, people should be taken out of the quarries. All these quarry laborers had already been released, however, there are still quite a few laborers in the concentration camp of Mauthausen, which is Himmler's concentration camp in the quarry there, and there Pleiger, who is the coal man, says he could not use these people, because he could not begin anything with prisoners. Did he have any misgivings then, as to using concentration camp inmates or prisoners in the quarries?\nAI do not remember this passage at all. I never heard the word \"Mauthausen,\" and once in a while I left the meeting, or then I was called to the telephone. It is quite possible that I overheard that when I was sitting there. I cannot remember this passage.\nQWould you have had a misgiving as to using concentration camp inmates in the coal mining industry? Had you been told how the prisoners are being used in Germany?\nANo; I did not know that, and that is why I could not judge. I was absolutely convinced that these concentration camp inmates were Germans, and that these could only be criminals if they are being used in quarries. All I knew was that the work in the quarry is a very difficult and hard one.\nQHad yon been told or do you know if German prisoners have to work or not?\nAYes; of course they have to work. It would have been against the sense of the country, that is the general idea. One country is in danger; then those people who belong to that country have to work for it. Then, if these people had been left alone and did not have to work, it would not have been right.\nQThen I shall come to the meeting, the 17th meeting of the Central Planning Board; that is, Document No. 124, also Exhibit No. 48, AB. It's on page 91 in the German first book and the Book 3-A, and can be found in the index at least in my book, on the second page of the index, the third item from the top.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2405, "page_number": "1925", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "MR. DENNEY:The 17th meeting, I believe, Your Honor, is page 43, Document Book 4-A.\nDR. BERGOLD:It's there twice in my book, It's mentioned on the top and one on the bottom of the page.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Well, page 7 of Document Book 3-B are the minutes of the 17th conference. There may be another section of them elsewhere.\nMR. DENNEY:If he is referring to the second one, Your Honor, page 1226 of the original, the other pages are in the earlier book.\nDR. BERGOLD:This is a meeting of the 28th of November 1942, with reference to coal production -- October, rather.\nAGenerally speaking, they always discussed the coal production in the Central Planning Board. We did not speak about labor, and providing the labor for the industry or for any other offices or organizations. The only thing we were interested in was the coal, because that was the bottleneck for the steel production, and the steel production was being required to be higher by Hitler. That was the reason why we had to pursue the whole question, in order to be able to check up as to how the whole affair was. Is it possible to produce more or not? All these previous meetings also referred to coal production, coal output, in order to be able to melt the steel.\nQWitness, there is an expression here used by a Mr. Winkhaus, or a statement, rather, in which it says that the coal mining industry is part of the armament industry and that nobody knew about that. Now, I want you to tell this Tribunal what they mean by the words armament industry in Germany?\nAIn any case not mining itself. However, everyone had the impression that the armament industry had been treated in a better way, namely with priorities. But the armament industry was worse off than the mining industry I proved to you before with those figures I mentioned, and that is why this gentleman from the coal industry wants to be included in the steel industry. Armament industry was all armament items, namely, arms, weapons, and ammunitions for the army, for the navy, and for the air force.", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "MR. DENNEY", "Q", "A" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2406, "page_number": "1926", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "THE PRESIDENT:We will recess until 1:30.\nTHE MARSHAL:This Tribunal is in recess until 1330 this afternoon.\n(A recess was taken.)", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2407, "page_number": "1927", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1330 hours, 14 March 1947)\nTHE MARSHAL:All persons in the Court please take your seats.\nTribunal 2 is again in session.\nERHARD MILCH - Resumed.\nDIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued)\nDR. BERGOLD:If Your Honors please, I may go on.\nBY DR. BERGOLD:\nQ.Witness, I now pass on to the twenty-third meeting of the Central Planning Board of October 30, 1942. May it please the Tribunal, this again is in two parts in the document book of the prosecution. That is, it is in the Book A -- it is the last document in that book -- and at the same time it is in Book B, the last document but four.\nWitness, in this twenty-third meeting of the Central Planning Board of the 30th of October, 1942, Speer speaks of the slacker question. I would like you to explain to the Tribunal what you understood by the word \"slacker\" and what the discussions of the different meetings of the Central Planning Board meant.\nA.The laws of war caused all people in Germany to be called up to work, including those who normally did not do any work. Some of those people were shy of work; and- they didn't like to do any work in wartime either. They didn't work properly and therefore were delighted when they were dismissed from their work after some time, for the factories could not afford to have people who gave bad examples. Those people had supplementary rations just as did their colleagues. German workers were annoyed at this and frequently complained to various departments in Germany.", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "A.", "Q.", "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2408, "page_number": "1928", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "Those people were then sent to different factories by Sauckel. The same thing happened again. Sometimes they could be sent around several times a month. I could not say that it was the same type of people, and they were called \"Pink.\" As far as the female elements were concerned, their professions were similar. They were tramps, as it was usual for them to wall the roads and highways in the summer. They worked when they felt like it, that is to say, when they could not do anything else to stay alive, and, therefore, apart from calling them \"slackers\", we also called them \"Occasional workers.\" The German workers who had a strong feeling for fairness, they wished those people to be tackled severely, and in that connection the statements are to be understood which sometimes were made by Speer and later on by me.\nQ.Witness, in this conference Sauckel is said to have stated the following: \"The- Fuehrer has said the following: If the French do not want to work, then I will have to keep the eight -- to draft the 800,000 prisoners of war back into the prisoner of war status. If they are willing to work, the French women can come to Germany to the husbands and work there.\" What did you understand from this quotation?\nA.After the French campaign, also after the Belgium and Dutch campaign, equally Norway, a large number of prisoners of war had been released. Almost all of the small countries, for instance Norway; but they had been released on condition that the conditions in France would be observed according to the Armistice terms and the treaties which had been coming through with Italy and France.\nThe next point that also becomes important later on is whenever reference was made to their being called back again; that moans those prisoners of war who had been released revocably.\nQ.Witness, in the course of this conference you went on to talk about having an immediate requirement of 49,000 and having reported it, that in spite of that there was a monthly deficit which accumula ted every month.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2409, "page_number": "1929", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "What was the purpose of those remarks. Was it a strengthening of your request, or what did it mean?\nA.No, that was not meant. What I meant was to show a parallel so far as Sauckel and his crowd were concerned; that he was behind in every case, not so far as Sauckel's coal was concerned, but Sauckel was also to be shown that his promise had been kept, and that his statement to Adolph Hitler had been correct.\nQ.Witness, in this conference, Sauckel speaks of having the possibility -- of having to have the possibility to take over the prisoners of war in the operations area right away. On that you declare that the normal channel would be that by order of the Fuehrer all stalags or prisoners of war camps would be handed over to him, that is, the armed forces, to catch the people, \"And should hand them over to you,\" that is, to Sauckel, and Sauckel answered that he had no uniforms for his people, and then you proposed \"after all that the men in question could wear uniforms.\" How did you mean that?\nA.Sauckel's demand, so far as the armed forces were concerned, was so far reaching that from the point of view of a soldier, it really looked ridiculous, and, therefore, I permitted myself to joke with him, as I wished to give an answer to his ridiculous demands.\nQ.Furthermore, Witness, during this conference you speak of the fact that the Prisoners of war who would come from the Ukraine generally were in very bad state, and that they would be of no benefit for the industries, even if they could be given better food as the industrial workers, that is, the German industrial workers would receive. As in the agriculture, they could got additional food, and, therefore , they should be sent there first. What was the meaning and intention you had, and why did you say it?\nA.The case was to be a measure of welfare, for complaints had been made in this meeting by other parties that the latest capture of Russians had been badly fod. I said yesterday, to that, that is in those battles the people when they were captured were in a bad physical state, and that they had been starving for a long time, and I assumed this would apply here also, and know from my own experience that you can soon catch up again in the country, whereas, rations in the cities, even for workers, were somehow restricted, and the rations for the workers, and the rations for workers were thus calculated to preserve a person's physical state, but it was not intended that those rations were to be given to men as additional food to recuperate.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2410, "page_number": "1930", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "I knew also that workers like going into agriculture just because of the better food situation.\nQ.Witness, was that a request which you had made repeatedly?\nA.Yes. I made them on all these occasions when such conditions were mentioned as a proposition.\nQ.Witness, now I come to the 22nd meeting of the Central Planning Board, which again is in two different parts in the Document Book, namely, the first as sixth document in Book A, and as last document, number two, is in Document Book B. In Book A there is only one part in which you speak again of feeding those prisoners of war, therefore, I have not to repeat it. Then in the second part, in Book B, the third last document, there again we have a conversation with Sauckel concerning the covering of the need or requirement, and Sauckel passed on the balance, which in general, was decreasing. Was that again a conference which was called for clarifying matters?\nA.Yes. I may point out at the meetings of 23rd October, 28th of October, 30th of October, 2nd of November and 3rd of November, these are five meetings, five consecutive- meetings, all of which were intended to prepare the steel distribution in that field for the first quarter of '43, for at the latest meeting of the 15th of November the Central Planning Board had to take measures to distribute the raw materials. And then again there were so many uncleared points as to the labor question that we were compelled to discuss that point in regard to coal and the steel production, for here again Hitler's demand was before us to distribute more steel than we could actually manufacture, and we did not think that system could be answered for.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2411, "page_number": "1931", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "Before the Central Planning Board existed, the Four Year Plan had distributed, very much more steel than was actually available, therefore, the whole industry had made steel memoranda, but no steel could be issued on the basis of those memoranda, and that caused chaos among the whole of our industry and the production, and we wished to finish with that state of affairs, and did not wish to continue that system.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2412, "page_number": "1932", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "Q.That is sufficient. I now pass on to the 23rd meeting, of which you just talked. This meeting is contained in Document Book 3-B; it is the third and fourth document.\nWitness; during this conference; this 23rd conference of the Central Planning Board; you talked of three hundred melters, and in the meantime this part of the document we know pretty well, and you make a proposal that you will receive two people for one worker of this kind. what did you mean by the proposal and why did the Central Planning Board deal - if it was only an information agency as far as labor was concerned - why did the Central Planning Board deal with such trifles?\nA.At that meeting I understood the proposition which was made by somebody else; that among the released prisoners of war there were some melters, and as I heard that this point had been discussed for a long time I suggested having; from among the prisoners of war still in Germany, releasing two of the prisoners of war for one melter each.\nThe man who came to us from France, not as a prisoner of war, of course, but as a free worker; my impression was -- without knowing myself what a melter really is - that that was such a rare type of work that it would not be too expensive to exchange one of them for two prisoners of war. Such exchanges between the German and French governmentsthat is to say, between prisoners of war and free workers -- was in full swing for a long time. That we of the Central Planning Board talked of the small quantify of three hundred people which, however, were very necessary for steel production, shows only that we did not discuss the question of labor as a whole but only the specialist questions for steel production; whether they may concern bigger numbers of workers, such as in the case of coal or a small figure as demanded by the iron industry.\nQ.I now pass to the 33rd meeting. This is in the Book A, and there it is in the seventh document, and it is again in Book B, equally the seventh document. This is the meeting of 16 February 1943 and again it is a meeting dealing with the labor allocation.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2413, "page_number": "1933", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "Witness, there is a great discussion with Sauckel concerning, the blocked factories and the taking in of foreign workers into Germany. Do you have anything special to say on this matter?\nA.As far as the date is concerned, that once again is six weeks before the quarter is up. The Central Planning Board is most anxious to distribute its raw materials. The steel industry once again has said, \"We did not receive any workers. We cannot manufacture any more steel; it is not our fault.\" On the other hand, there is Hitler's pressure, \"You have to distribute more steel. You must see to it that more steel will be manufactured.\"\n\" Witness, during this conference mention is made of the fact that the people from the Russian front should be taken back into Germany; that is, the population should be taken back a hundred kilometers behind the front, Why was that proposed?\nA.I believe that meant that part of the population which was on digging work. In my opinion, as I saw it at the time, they were not people who were present in those areas. They were merely employed behind the front in digging battalions, and there was an order from Hitler that those people, as the Russians advanced, should be transported back. It was my view that they should not be transported to the homeland. They should merely be taken back, because otherwise as soldiers they would be sent against us into battle.\nQ.And you wanted to prevent that?\nA.I wanted to prevent that, and therefore I mentioned this figure of a hundred kilometers. There were tendencies to bring these people to Germany by force, but I said, \"No, our purpose will be served if they are brought back about a hundred kilometers, because the Russian advance will probably not go any further at once.\" At that time I still hoped that we could hold our front until winter. I shall speak about that later on, because I had very special suggestions to make in that spring to Hitler concerning the question of hot the war should be conducted and finished and those ideas filled me since the fall of Stalingrad, and therefore 1933A that is a remark which is connected with that idea.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2415, "page_number": "1934", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "Q.Thank you. That is, in other words, you want to summarize that has nothing to do with labor commitment?\nA.No, it has nothing to do with labor. It was merely concerned with the overall situation. I wished to prevent what had actually happened in other places -- that those people would, within twenty-four hours, fight on the enemy's side as'soldiers. We knew that from the large number of deserters.\nQ.Thank you. Witness, in this conference you speak also of your French factories and you propose that sponsor-firms should be put in the relations with French factories. Was that meant to supervise the French factories in order to put pressure on them?\nA.No, this was a connection between the German factories and the so-called blocked factories. I wanted to increase output in the blocked factories by seeing to it that the home industry, the German industry, would place more orders to France. Then the German blocked factories there could be increased and they were less short of workers and had fewer worries than we had in Germany. The idea was to overcome the short age of workers by giving more work to France, instead of getting the people to us as Sauckel wished.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2416, "page_number": "1935", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "QWitness, during the same conference the assignment of Russians to the ack-ack batteries is mentioned, and you said the following: \"We have requested that in our ack-ack batteries a certain percentage of Russians are to be assigned, 50,000 in total should be assigned and 30,000 gunners are already there. This is a funny thing that these Russians have to man the guns.\" I ask you to explain your position on this quotation, because if you say it is a funny thing, then you approve the fact.\nALay I say first of all this must be a misprint. It should mean insane, insane, mad, in German.\nDR. BERGOLD:Lay it please the Tribunal, may I say that we have in German the word Witzig meaning funny, and the word Wahnwitzig, meaning insane. Both words are just the contrary of one another.\nTHE WITNESS:May I say that the whole text here, I am convinced, has not been reproduced. Very well, which happened frequently. I don't think that I spoke quite so unclearly as it sounds. I do believe, however, that the sense must be clear undoubtedly because everything else which I said on the naval situation in other conferences would be quite wrong. Perhaps I may put in my words how the situation was, because after all, I know it quite well.\nAt Hitler's orders the Luftwaffe, personified by Goering, ordered that certain services in the anti-aircraft batteries should be done by socalled Russian auxiliaries. Russian auxiliaries were Russians, Russian soldiers who were prisoners of war, who had declared themselves to be anti-Stalin and were prepared to volunteer to fight against Stalin. They were not small in numbers either. That went into many hundred thousands. There were quite a few who remained in that organization up to the end, until after the collapse they were sent back to Russia. I saw hundreds of them commit suicide only to avoid being sent back to Russia. Those Russians should be recruited from the auxiliary units of the Army, and from the 50,000 they supplied 30,000. The OKW now said, \"We have no more auxiliaries at our disposal, for the auxiliaries make up a large number of divisions with the Army and they should not be dissolved for the anti-aircraft batteries.\"", "speakers": [ "THE WITNESS", "A", "DR. BERGOLD", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2417, "page_number": "", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "1935A Thereupon the OKW said; that us to say, in this case Hitler also, \"Then the Luftwaffe industry; which is employing Russian prisoners of war, should supply the other 20,000 Russians.\"", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2418, "page_number": "1936", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "That was roughly the biggest part of all Russian prisoners of war which we had in the Luftwaffe industry. That would have caused a collapse for me in several branches of the industry; for no other substitutes were given us in reality.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2419, "page_number": "1937", "date": "17 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-17", "text": "A (Continuing) I, therefore, was strongly opposed to giving up the Russians for anti-aircraft purposes, and I said either here or somewhere else, I can't remember where, I was morally very indignant, and said that was a piece of nefariousness, it was nefarious to employ these people shooting against their own allies, for the Russians themselves did not fly over the areas of those batteries. I overlooked unconsciously that these people wished to fight voluntarily, but I think if is quite clear that I, as the responsible man for armament, would not stand up for this interference with my industry and fought back with all means at my disposal, and as far as I know those people were not supplied by us, but I took measures in order to avoid carrying out this order by Hitler.\nQWitness, I now come to the thirty-sixth meeting. This is the third document in Book 3-A of the prosecution. This is the meeting concerning the coal economy-plan. In this conference Timm speaks of the fact that the recruitment would meet considerable difficulties, at least at the time, and that they had started to draft the people by year call. At this occasion I would ask you to explain your position to the question, what you thought, of how and whether it was justified to bring those people to Germany. What were your thoughts with reference to that question?\nAThis is a statement by Timm? Yes, it is.And do I understand you correctly, you wish to hear my attitude about this?\nQYes.\nABefore I became GL, that is to say, in the year of 1941, I had been ordered by Goering to work as Udet's adviser. According to my document, ten days later on 30 June, I had a long talk with Udet on the question of foreign workers and prisoners of war.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2420, "page_number": "1938", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "Udet said that the situation was the following, and that his information had come to him from the O.K.W. The first question was french prisoners of war. There was an agreement with the French Government that French prisoners of war should, some of them, be released, I believe the older age groups, married men, and that the younger age groups, however, should remain in Germany to be at disposal for all sorts of work, that is to say independent of the rulings of the Geneva Convention, for the French Government of the day wished to have a balance determiner with Germany being firmly convinced at the time that Germany would win the war, and that it would therefore be advisable for France to be on good terms with the future victor. Then there were agreements on the exchange of the older prisoners of war. I should call it the second oldest generation, for French civilian workers which would be recruited in France. I believe that system worked quite well for a long time. I may anticipate here that later on, long after Udet's death, as far as I know, there were agreements between Sauckel and the French Government to the effect to have old age groups called up for purposes of work, and the French Government, the Vichy Government, undertook the obligation to call up the people and put them at Germany's disposal. That is what I meant by the age group which I mentioned so often. That system was carried out only half, or even less than that, out Germany had a legal claim on the basis of those treaties on the age groups.\nI now go back to the question accrued in '41, the Russian prisoners of war, and there were also the Russian and Polish civilian workers who had been recruited. As far as I know the Polish prisoners of war were immediately made civilian workers so that Polish prisoners of war with soldiers' ranks really no longer existed as such. They were simply civilian workers now.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2421, "page_number": "1939", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "It was explained here that Russia had not become a member of the Geneva Convention, and that Russia also had resigned from The Hague Land Warfare Regulation which deals with the prisoner of war question. It had resigned after the First World War, so that the decrees of the Geneva Convention and the Hague Convention were not applicable to Russian prisoners of war nor to their civilian population. That had to be understood in the sense that they had been well treated, of course. Of course I must assume that as a basis because that was our conviction. The Geneva Convention should not be suspended in order to treat them badly, mistreat them or let them starve or insult their feeling, their sense of honor, but only to the effect that they should be at the disposal for work in Germany, because the Russian and civilian population, according to the Geneva Convention, could only have been used in Russia and do there all sort of work on behalf of the Wehrmacht, but they should not have been brought to Germany, but as Russia was not a signatory to the Convention, the work of the civilians was also permissible in Germany herself.\nSimilarly as in France, conditions were in Holland and Belgium, although I never saw myself any Dutch workers in the Luftwaffe industry, and Belgians only in very few cases. What we really had were mainly Frenchmen and a relatively small contingent of Russians. As far as the civilian Russians were concerned, they were mainly girls from the Ukraine. That is what I learned at the time.\nAbout a year later, in the early summer of 1942, I think I once saw the chief of my planning office, General Von Gablenz, and I gave him the order to report to me closely on that situation, for the whole question of the Geneva Convention, etc., was well known to soldiers. The recital of his examin ation was, and it is in the same fundamental situation.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2422, "page_number": "1940", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "I also heard from other sides that the same results had been given. I was therefore convinced that employment both of French and Russian prisoners of war and of the civilian workers from France, Belgium, etc., also Russia, was justified, but I want to emphasize here that I myself was under the impression that the voluntary nature as far as civilians are concerned, and as far as it applied to Germany, was said to be present and existed, whereas we in Germany did not feel ourselves to be responsible what the French or Belgian Government might order. I heard that the highest authority in our country was of the opinion that the French would be compensated later on at the peace treaty for the way in which they collaborated with us now. The French also had supplied air squadrons and anti-aircraft batteries in their own country, and they shot quite gaily at British aircraft without us having given the order. The French Government had been prepared under its own initiative to do this. I regard this type of relationship in the same manner as the relations between the allies and the Italians who after the collapse of Lussolini's system went over to the Allies, at least some of them, whereas the rest fought with us and worked with us.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2423, "page_number": "1941", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "JUDGE PHILLIPS:The Tribunal understands you to say that Polish prisoners of war were changed into civilian workers and that you no longer considered them to be prisoners of war. How were they changed into civilian workers from prisoners of war?\nA.Personally I can not give you many details about this because that happened as early as 1939, and at that time I was not connected with the armament question or with the labor question. How it was worked I do not know. All I can imagine is that there was no longer a Polish Government and that the Governor General gave such order, that he interrogated Polish authorities on the point. It was only here that I saw that there was a polish Consul or somebody, but I cannot give you anymore clear details.\nDR. BERGOLD:May it please the Tribunal, perhaps I can clarify the matter.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Let's let the witness clarify it.\nBY THE PRESIDENT:\nQ.Witness, you are an old soldier. You have been a soldier for many years. How do you transfer a prisoner of war into a civilian, by discharging him?\nA.Yes, he must be released from being a prisoner of war, and then there are various possibilities. One possibility would be--and this was resorted to b Germany--to make him. a free worker and tell him that \"You are being released, but you must do some work. That is the conditions which we put to you. You are being paid properly, and otherwise you live as a free man.\"\nThere is also another possibility, which was the way chosen by the Americans, by which a prisoner of war is released and them locked up as an internee. I think that that procedure is not quite so favorable for the man concerned.\nQ.You just transposed them from prisoners of war to civil prisoners, then?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "JUDGE PHILLIPS", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2424, "page_number": "", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "A.No, they were no prisoners. They were properly released, but they signed a document which obliged them to do some work for Germany.\nQ.You imprisoned them by a document instead of in a stockade?\nA.They were no longer locked up, sir. The polish workers--I saw them 1941A in the country, for instance, lived quite freely.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2425, "page_number": "1942", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "Q.Could they go where they liked?\nA.They could not change their places of work without permission. For instance, they were allocated to a farmer, and then they stayed with that farmer. Only if there were special reasons could they change their place of work. Then they were transferred.\nQ.That is what you call freeing them?\nA.It was not complete freedom, but it was a better status than previously when they would have remained prisoners of war.\nQ.What would happen to one of these free workers if he walked away from his place of employment?\nA.Sir, that is what I do not know myself. But may I say something else? A German worker was not allowed to change his place of work either. Freedom for a German was not any bigger than freedom for a Pole, as long as the war lasted.\nQ.The German went home to his family every night, did he not?\nA.These Polish soldiers--I can not speak comprehensively because I am not particularly well informed here--but what I saw were young people, and they lived with the farmer's family.\nQ.Witness, you don't mean to tell this Tribunal seriously that the Polish worker, the former prisoner of war, had the same freedom of movement that the German civilian had?\nA.I can not speak on all fields of life because I do not know. All I do know was that he was under the obligation to remain with his employer, but, as I said before, the German worker had to remain with his employer.\nQ.Oh, well, we had that in the United States, for that matter. I still don't remember your answering my question: What would happen to a Polish worker who chose to walk away from his place of employment?\nA.I am unable to answer that. I know of no such cases, nor was I told about one.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2426, "page_number": "", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "DR. BERGOLD:May it please the Tribunal, the defendant can not know, because he was a soldier, what the Polish worker had to do. Like the German 1942A worker, the polish worker would have been punished and brought before a tribunal because he broke his contract, and he would have received a small punishment.", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2427, "page_number": "1943", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "Thousands of German workers have been punished for the same reason, and I have defended many a German worker for the same charge. That would have happened-- nothing else.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2428, "page_number": "1944", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "THE PRESIDENT:Let me ask you, Dr. Bergold. Did you over defend a Polish worker for walking away from his employment?\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes, I did.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Well, I have no inclination to dispute you.\nDR. BERGOLD:I defended quite a few foreign workers in war time, not only Poles, but Frenchmen, Belgians, Dutchmen.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Oh, maybe Belgians, maybe Dutchmen, but Poles --?\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes, definitely. I am prepared to make that statement on oath, sir.\nTHE DEFENDANT:May I supply an observation of my own on the Polish question? Shortly before I was taken prisoner, I was in the country in Sleswig-Holstein. In that region the only foreigners there were Poles. Those Poles on the estate where I was, perhaps 30 or 40 of them, said that they did not wish to return home, that they would ask to be allowed to remain on the estate just as did their colleagues in the neighborhood. These people were wearing a splendid suit on Sundays. They looked very clean and healthy. They could not be told from any German in the neighborhood there except for certain racial distinctions. All of them had bicycles. On that bicycle they went on Sundays to the nearest pub and met their girl friends and danced, and they told me themselves that never before had they been so happy as they were in Germany. That was at a time when the British were 50 kilometers away from their village.\nBY THE PRESIDENT:\nQPerhaps that is why they were so happy.\nANo, they said that they did not want to leave there now. They wished to remain.\nQI think you misunderstood my point. Perhaps their happiness arose from the fact that the British were only 50 kilometers away.\nANo, I understood what you were trying to say, sir, out I also talked to the German employers there. I was there in a totally private capacity, I had no official functions, and I knew those people quite well.", "speakers": [ "BY THE PRESIDENT", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE DEFENDANT", "THE PRESIDENT", "Q", "A" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2429, "page_number": "", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "They were friends of mine, end they told me that they were quite satisfied with their Poles, and they also said 1944A that the Poles had done very good work and that the Poles had asked to be allowed to remain after the collapse, because in those days they did not wish to return to Poland and they were quite well looked after here.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2430, "page_number": "1945", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "May I ask the Court to believe me that we in Germany were not all of us hangmen and people who delighted in other people's misery. I may say here that I think that the majority of the German people are goodhearted and that they treat other people well and that these people did not know that in some isolated places there were isolated criminals who polluted our good name for a. long time to come. The people are suffering from that now, and they will also suffer in future. That is what depresses all of us the most. Otherwise, one has to take the point of view that all Germans are criminals and then it might be justified to hang the lot. Then, please start on me.\nQI am interested in your use of the word \"isolated\". I don't know just what you mean by that, but I won't enter into any controversy with you about it. How many scores or hundreds of cases must there be before they cease to be isolated? Well, let's stop the discussion. This is time-consuming. I started it, and I'll stop it.", "speakers": [ "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2431, "page_number": "1946", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "BY DR. BERGOLD:\nQ.Witness, this question has been discussed after all and you said that you had received information that this deportation of foreign workers would be admissible. Could you tell me now what you knew already before, prior to that moment concerning this question.\nA.I know that after the first war, the question of deportation of Belgium workers had been examined by a committee of the German Reichstag. I know that this parliamentary committee examined personalities like Hindenburg, Ludendorff, I think Mackensen and others; and that many questions were discussed, including that of Belgian civilian workers. As far as I can recall, that committee was presided over by a man who had been given the Nobel prize, Professor schuecking; I think that was his name. However, I was very interested in it, in this, and closely followed it because Hindenburg whom I worshipped, was put before a court; and as far as I can recall, no sentence was passed upon that score, and nobody had been reproached that international law had been-violated, because the Hague Convention and. also the first Geneva Conference believed that -- I am not very well informed, but I think that was so.\nQ.Witness, I now pass on to the 42nd meeting of the 23rd of June 1943; this is document book III-A; it is the fourth document. A discussion arose there concerning the fact that for the coal mining industry the output of Soviet Russian workers should be increased by a bonus system, and that meant one mark, perhaps, a person, and per day. What can you tell us about this question?\nA.Similar bonus-systems existed for German workers. The value of the bonus was not financial; one mark was roughly the wages for one hour, but that mark was not given as a piece of money, out in a sort of ration card; that ration card might be good for say twenty cigarettes, or perhaps ten cigars or fifteen cigars, I don't know; or, perhaps a visit to the cinema; or, a certain quantity of food, etc.;", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2432, "page_number": "1947", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "that is to say, the man concerned could obtain something which was given him additionally, and he couldn't have obtained the same things just with money, at least as far as food and luxury goods were concerned. That was quite an inducement for the workers, because even a man with one million marks in his pocket could not buy anything beyond what was prescribed in his ration card.\nQ.Thank you. I now pass on to the 53rd meeting, the meeting of the 16th of February, 1944, and I want to speak of several points of that meeting. This is the next document after the document which we just referred to. Witness, in this conference you speak of the following: It is quite impossible to exploit each foreign worker, each foreigner completely, otherwise it would have to be by piece work, and it is impossible to do anything against foreigners who do not do their work, but if the trusty starts to tackle a prisoner of war and gives him a beating, then we get hell:", "speakers": [ "Q." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2433, "page_number": "1948", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "the man is thrown into the prison. Witness, how can you, how could you explain this passage, and did you issue any directives to treat foreigners in this manner?\nAThe last portion of the question I can answer with a definite no. I was a bit excited, particularly on that occasion, because a case of that sort had occurred; somebody had been beaten by somebody else; the man was sent to prison, but it had not been taken into consideration, I thought, that the man who hit had been strongly provoked. I know that there on that day I spoke particularly strongly, and all my remarks were of a fairly violent nature; I do not wish to make excuses for that today after so many years. When I read it now, when I read it just now, I, myself, could not understand how I could possibly have said these things, oven when I say that a few days before I had been bombed out, and that the night before that half of my parents had been wiped out by bombs, which I must say affected me. But 1 was much more indignant about the over-all situation in which we found ourselves; I could see the collection drastically in front of my eyes; I knew that one's work had lost all sense, but I could not say so or show it, and I had to walk into defeat with open eyes. Other things which might have affected me that day I no longer recall; certain days I was particularly excitable, and that might have been the climax of those days; that is how it looks to me now.\nQWitness.\nAMay I add that I can't recall a large number cf things I said there, and some of it came back to me later, I know in a small way, when I saw the evidence and what was told about various things.\nQWitness, you said you had not issued any directive to that effect, but in this document there are a few lines that say during an occurrence in which a Frenchman had told the trusty, the manager, and the manager that he would be the first to hang, that you said to your engineer, that if you don't smack the man like that, then I will punish you; I will protect you if you do a thing like that, but didn't you after all issue a certain sort of directive at that occasion?", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2434, "page_number": "1949", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "AAs far as I can still recall the case of the Frenchman saying something, saying so, all I said in reply I would have given him hell if he told me so. How I could have said the other things I cannot recall now.\nQIn the same connection you said then that you had ordered two Russian officers to be shot; did you ever issue such an order?\nANo, never.\nQAnd how do you explain these minutes then?", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2435, "page_number": "1950", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "A.Hero I am convinced that the records are wrong. First of all, the passage is hardly suitable in this context. Apart from that, I must have said something else, because if you read the next sentence you will see that. I can hardly at all recall it, and a few weeks ago I did not recall anything at all that somebody told me that Hitler once had had such a measure carried out, and perhaps somewhere else I described that case, but I cannot imagine that it would have happened in the Central Planning Board; it might have taken place within the framework of the GL perhaps.\nQ.But how could you explain that they have been entered into the minutes of the Central Planning Board?\nA.Perhaps there was a stenographer stuck in the office who took down the minutes of GL meeting as well as the Central Planning Board meeting. I, myself, thought it once because I remembered darkly and dimly that I told somebody, \"Omit Hitler's name here completely\"; that was somewhere, I know, but I could not swear to it now where and when it happened.\nQ.On this occasion you said at the end, after you had reported this, you will certainly get the hell out, somebody who will interfere on the part, or for the benefit of prisoners of war.\nA.Yes, that it seems to me is true; that the text must have been quite different.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:Did I understand then that the witness says he did make this statement, but not at the Central Planning Board meeting; is that the result of the discussion?\nJust that and no further.\nDR. BERGOLD:No, that is not quite correct; the witness has as far as I understood him said he referred to that incident not in this form, in another form, nor did he refer to it at the General Planning Board, but in the GL meeting. He said the form cannot be correct. Witness, please correct me if I am wrong here.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "JUDGE MUSMANNO" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2436, "page_number": "", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "A.No, that is quite correct; that is my assumption, which I have now reached when I saw the evidence; I know that on some occasion or another I said 1950A and I talked of Hitler, that Hitler had done this thing and that; I thereupon said, don't mention the name of Hitler here at all.", "speakers": [ "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2437, "page_number": "1951", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "DR. BERGOLD:May I interrupt; that is not the point: your Honors wish to know what you testified to regarding the question whether you had spoken of the case at all and in what manner.", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2438, "page_number": "1952", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "A.I said that my memory is very weak on the point, which is becoming a little clearer of late. I am still thinking of wether I didn't say all this in these GL meetings.\nQ.In this form, or in another form?\nA.No, no, in a different form, in the form that Hitler had ordered this or that, and that Hitler had these people shot and we were indignant, as they were prisoners of war. In that sense it is quite obvious that I said, \"There will be trouble; somebody will look after this.\"\nTHE PRESIDENT:We will take a recess now.\n(A recess was taken)", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2439, "page_number": "1953", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "THE MARSHAL:The Tribunal is again in session.\nDIRECT EXAMINATION (Cont'd.)\nBY DR. BERGOLD:\nQWitness, you say, with reference to these Russians, that you do not remember their exact statement. However, you must know very clearly if you gave such an order or not, because the shooting of two prisoners is something that cannot be forgotten.\nAThat is quite correct. I certainly did not issue such an order. Neither did I have the right nor the possibility to give such an order. However, I never gave anybody the idea to do that. On the contrary, I know that I was very indignant about that, and I know exactly if I had done such a thing, then I would never have been able to forget it, because anyway that would have been the first murder I would have had on my conscience.\nQWitness, you know the case Sagan, don't you? What was your opinion about that case?\nAWe were not clearly informed about that. I only learned of the full truth when I was in British captivity. However, I know that at the time I was very indignant about that also. I was afraid that counter measures would be taken against it. In our eyes -\nTHE PRESIDENT:Dr. Bergold, we don't identify this incident. What is it you call it, \"Sigon incident\"?\nDR. BERGOLD:Sagan. Sagan is that famous case which played a certain part before the International Military Tribunal where British Air Corps officers escaped from a camp and then upon Hitler's order, for the larger part, were shot. Mr. Denney shortly asked the witness Foerster about it, not so long ago.\nTHE PRESIDENT:We didn't identify it by that name. We understand now. Go ahead, witness.\nA (Cont'd.) I wanted to add to this that we all were very indignant about that case and that, for quite a few of us and even for myself, cut the last bonds between me and those who had given such orders.", "speakers": [ "A", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "Q", "THE MARSHAL" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2440, "page_number": "", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "1953-A", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2441, "page_number": "1954", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "QWitness, were you indignant about this order for personal reasons also?\nAYes. My heir was in British captivity in Canada. He was also shot down as a pilot. I thought it over, what I would say, if the other party had committed such a crime. I know also that one of our young people whom we had there whom I liked very much, a certain Oberleutnant V. Werra, tried several times to escape and he actually succeeded in escaping from Canadian captivity and to reach Germany. I might add that we old airmen from the last war were very pleased about that as he was a young man who succeeded in doing so, because I believe for every prisoner of war, it is a flash of light in the sky to be able to escape, and if a young man is able to do so, then he does so for his fatherland, and he shows that he is a \"tough guy\". I think one can appreciate that in other nations just as well even if they are fighting against somebody. I know from the World War I, when I had my own fighter group, that very often we invited shotdown British airmen. We did not keep them prisoners, however, as long as they were with us, they could move around freely and we got on together. I even permitted one of these young people to fly one of our planes because he was very interested in the technical aspects of it, and he gave us his word of honor that he would not escape and he actually kept his word of honor. That is hour we airmen used to treat the prisoners of war. I may add that the other party did the same.\nQThank you. Witness, I shall now come back to two points of tho 54th meeting. This is the first document in Document Book No. 3-A. Witness, during that meeting Sauckel mentioned that only a very small percentage of those sent to Germany came on a voluntary basis. The statements have been mentioned repeatedly in this trial and may I ask you to state your opinion on that?\nAI might say that I do not remember having ever heard these words from Sauckel.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2442, "page_number": "", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "It is possible that I was not there at the moment when he said that. However, it is possible that I overheard that remark, because during those 1954-A long meetings, we had discussions amongst each other.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2443, "page_number": "1955", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "We were also interested in ether questions and one did not pay any attention then. During these long meetings there was at least one meeting or two, when our concentration was not quite what it should have been. Had I heard it, I would have believed Sauckel just as little as I believed in all the acrobatic figures ho gave us, because Sauckel had stated the contrary previously. I know exactly it was not so long ago, namely that he declared in a meeting how well his system functioned and how he brought all these laborers on a voluntary basis.\nQWitness, in this meeting you also discussed or spoke of what should happen if, in Franco, the invasion of the allied forces would take place. You proposed that, in order to prevent the revolution of the partisans, these people should be sent to Germany. Won't you make a statement as to that?\nAWe spoke of those age groups of prisoners of war who were free, but particularly the young ago groups, which, on the basis of an agreement between the two governments, namely, Germany and Vichy, had been agreed upon by France for Germany. I realized that this is a historical fact from many wars that the French youth is nationally inflamed, and, at that moment, when an allied army would be on French soil again, it would start the fight against tho invader as partisans.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2444, "page_number": "1956", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "We were very well informed about the weapons that were dropped every night. We knew the approximate figure of those things that had been sent over because, among these people who had been sent over there were also agents, German agents, so that all those light arms which they sent over would have been sufficient for a whole army in French territory. It would have been the duty of the German occupational forces to be able to seize these weapons in time. Possession of weapons was under penalty of death, exactly as it applies to the Germans here in Germany. This is the normal procedure for an occupational force for zone security. However, the treatment of the French on one hand was too mild, too soft; on tho other hand, however, too hard. So that the Frenchmen did not know what the German wanted to do and I always followed measures which were dictated by my conscience. Such a procedure had to be right between hard and soft. If that would have been tho case, I'm sure that a partisan army would not have been able to resist in France, and I thought that our military officers were blind that they could see all that. However, later on, or a few months later, experience proved that such a partisan army existed, and that these partisan armies committed so many cruelties and inhumane crimes that I am sure that they contributed to the victory of the allies by doing so. At least, seen from our part, namely that they contributed to Germany's defeat.\nQWitness, I shall now leave the meetings of the Central Planning Board and come to single questions in that connection. What do you know about the use of British and American prisoners of war?\nA.According to my knowledge, they went into the respective camps and they were not being used for labor. I never saw such a prisoner of war any place.\nQ.Witness, did you ever know the Fuehrer records of Speer? Were they ever shown to you?\nA.Only certain excerpts of them, if they ever were connected with the air armaments, but that was very seldom and I did not know them in their bulk.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2445, "page_number": "", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "1956-A", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2446, "page_number": "1957", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "Q.Do you know the Fuehrer record of the 29th of September 1942, in which Speer laid down that the Fuehrer's attention was drawn by him to the fact that armament production is not possible in the concentration camps?\nA.No, I did not know that.\nQ.Within the frame of the Central Planning Board you also spoke of the fact that the parcel post traffic in France should be confiscated in order to induce the French to go to work. What did you mean by that?\nA.I mean under control. It was said that the whole black market went through these parcel pests. That black market was already at the time forbidden by us and I proposed that this parcel post traffic be controlled, and if there should be any black market goods, they should be confiscated. I don't think the record of what I said is accurate because in that parcel post traffic there were many goods for Germany, the date of arrival for which was important for the armament. At that time we asked for many spare parts fer the industry, or for the armament, and we carried that out through parcel post mail.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2447, "page_number": "1958", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "QWitness, suddenly you're speaking here of the fact that in special manufacturers or in one special factory, eighty per cent of foreign laborers were employed. What was that all about?\nAFor the time being I can't answer that. I think that is a parts manufacturer.\nQYou spoke about transportation machines?\nAYes. There were transportation machines, namely, Junkers 52. That was the Junkers factory.\nQWhy was there such a high percentage of foreign laborers there?\nAThat was not a war machine. In other words, it was not a weapon; and as far as we could, we told our industry that these foreign laborers be used for the manufacture of such equipment, if that should be possible.\nQWithin the framework of the Central Planning Board, did you succeed in increasing the Luftwaffe production, the air production?\nAExcuse me. Do you mean within the framework of the Central Planning Board?\nQYes.\nAYou mean that I got more material? Yes, to a certain extent. If it bad gone according to the Fuehrer's orders concerning priority and urgency then the Luftwaffe would have been on position number 7, seventh on the list. However, due to the fact that I was on an equivalent basis with Speer and I worked on the same basis with him, Speer being clever enough to realize the necessity of air armament. I always received more material than I would have been allowed to have according to the Fuehrer's orders.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2448, "page_number": "1959", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "I always received more material than I would have been allowed to have according to the Fuehrer's orders. However, I did not mention all that during these sessions and meetings. Later on, however, I briefed my chief as to how to appear. Speer then later on considered the necessity of the whole matter and agreed with me and insisted that we got more.\nQDid you within the framework of the Luftwaffe have to look after your satellites as well and provide them with air equipment?\nAWell, our satellites were not exactly strong; and the famous Italian industry could not even produce two hundred planes a month, including transport and similar planes. Rumania had hardly any production; Bulgaria none at all. We had to help them. In Hungary a new industry was being developed which had been strongly supported by us. However, unfortunately the ambition of those small countries was that they wanted to build all types themselves.\nQThat is enough, Witness, in the framework of your collaboration with your allies, did you influence the labor question there?\nANo.\nQBefore I turn over to the Jaegerstab, I should like to discuss a special case here. What orders did you have toward the middle of January 1943? What orders did you receive from Hitler?\nAOn the 15th January 1943, in the evening I was called up by the Fuehrer, saying that I should go to see. Hitler the next day for a special mission. As far as I ***** I believe that the General Bodenschatz called me up from the Fuehrer's headquarters. The following morning I reported to Goering, who happened to be in Berlin at that time. Goering knew that the question of food for Stalingrad was involved. Stalingrad had been encircled for months, and the whole Sixth German Army was in it. On the 16th, in the morning, I flew to Hitler's headquarters in East Prussia; and then Hitler either in the afternoon or in the evening gave me the order that I should proceed to Saratow immediately by air in order to supervise Stalingrad's food supplies from there.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2449, "page_number": "1960", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "QWitness, make it a little more short, please.\nA.Yes. Later on I tried to carry out this mission. When I received the mission, the last airfield had been lost through the Russian attack. We looked for certain places which were rather difficult to find there in those mountainous areas; and within the next few days we succeeded in carrying our plans out and sending a certain amount of food. However, it was too late. The resisting force of the party had broken down; the people were starving; they had no more vehicles or horses at all. They could not get the food from the landing places for the planes because they were too weak to do so. They could not carry the containers so that the increase of supply for Stalingrad ended before it even started. What there was near the end of the month in February could not be kept up.\nQDid you have a serious accident then?\nAYes.At that moment when I wanted to fly in to Stalingrad, before I hit the airfield, I was hit by a railroad engine; and I was seriously injured.\nQThen you went back to Hitler?\nAYes, I carried out the mission first. Then when Stalingrad had fallen, I flew back, reported to Hitler that I could not complete my mission. He told me, however, that it was not I who had not carried out the mission but that it was his fault. He said he gave me the orders too late; he wanted to give the orders to me much earlier; but they had, however, talked him out of it.\nQWitness, during that occasion, did you tell Hitler your opinion about the war and the general situation of the war?\nAThat was on the 4th of February when I reported back to Hitler. Hitler on that particular day was very crushed due to the loss of Stalingrad. It was not possible to have a quiet talk with him. He did not receive me at first with my chief of staff, namely, General of the Tank Corps Modell, who had a corps within that fortress. We both were under the impression that day that we would not be able to speak to him.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2450, "page_number": "", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "However, he told me in a few words, \"Now, go right ahead to your GL task, manufacturing and the first line. Now we will have transport planes, transport planes, and more transport planes.\" He was talking about Stalingrad. He thought that had he had more transport planes he would have been able to keep Stalingrad.\n1960-A With respect to Stalingrad I had a long discussion with him on the 5th of March.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2451, "page_number": "1961", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "That was the last time I saw him. That was about a month later. I was ordered to see him because he wanted to give me the mission, that I should build high altitude and fast bombers and put them in the first line of production. These now were more important than transport planes. I had availed myself of that opportunity on that day and had prepared myself in writing in order to tell him my opinion about the general situation. That discussion took place in the evening. I had dinner with him alone. That was shortly before 9:00 o'clock; and it lasted until 3:15 a.m. Then in contradiction with all other discussions I had with him I was the one who was speaking all the time.\nQWhat did you tell him at the time?\nA.Do you rant me to answer that in a few words or shall I go into detail?\nQAs we say, choose your golden way; go between the two.\nAWell, I did not want to talk about that for the period of six or seven hours which it lasted at the time. I told him first of all the truth about Stalingrad; and I told him that the question of leaving an army was a serious military mistake, although according to military and strategical points of view it had to withdraw, something which had been suggested both by myself and by the army. It was a mistake; and it did end with the loss of 350,000 men on the German side. However, our withdrawal in time would have saved the greatest part of these soldiers. I told him that, after all, the Russians were not as anxious to attack as that, that in the winter they would have dared to attack a German army which was in a difficult position. I told him then that that point was now the last point in the fate of the war. I told him that I had tried to roach him before the Russian campaign. However, I had been unable to do so because it had been forbidden. I said that the time was now five minutes past twelve. We use that expression in Germany when something is done with. I told him in that by that I meant that the war was lost.", "speakers": [ "A", "A.", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2452, "page_number": "", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "I apologized for not considering his nerves. There was no tine for that. I thought it my duty to tell him my sincere opinion; as a field marshal I thought myself entitled to such an action.\n1961-A I knew that he did not want to hear it.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2453, "page_number": "1962", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "However, I wished that he would hear me in spite of that. He could do with me whatever he wanted afterwards. I remembered, however, that he himself before the war had used strong words against the bad advisers of William II (Wilhelm). They had not approached him because of their cowardice and had not told him the truth. In no case would I wish to be similar to such a person in my own conscience, even if such blame could be put on me. He told me then, \"Yes, you can say today whatever you wish to say.\"\nI told him then that he was not any longer in a position to attack in the East; that these attacks which had already been developed he should stop; that he could only defend himself; and I was of the direct opinion that instead of building great fortification works in France and Norway, that during the whole of the spring, summer, and autumn, with respect to the Dnjepr position at the time, it was, I should say, 800 kilometers behind the Russian front, that he fortify that position with every means, which was to be of concrete, etc., in a great depth, between two-hundred and three-hundred kilometers depth; and in that way with strong fortification and good shelter for the soldiers, equipped with good equipment and food and ammunition, and that then he should take the troops back to that position for the winter, and that he should give up the whole territory between the fortification where they were then, out of which he would not get anything at all, nor oil, coal, or ore. By doing that he would shorten the length of the Russian front, and in such a way that the maintenance of those soldiers on the line would be much easier. Apart from that he should takemore care of the Eastern forces, and I am quite sure that on the whole Eastern front of twothousand kilometers, about ten million German soldiers, not one million was fighting, then he would have to take measures to change that. That was the only point he carried out later on, but unfortunately only towards the end of that year the result was that the fighting infantry units on the whole Eastern front amounted to 265,000 men of the Army. It was impossible to hold that front with such a small number as such.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2454, "page_number": "", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "I furthermore suggested to him that a greater personal change should occur, namely, he himself should give up command over the Army, and to take in 1962-A his place a capable General.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2455, "page_number": "1963", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "That thus he took before the German people that responsibility, which he could not bear. He was no soldier in that respect, because he die not learn that. I suggested to him to dissolve my own armies, my own branch of an independent Wehrmacht unit, and to put the Luftwaffe entirely under the Wehrmacht, for there was no longer a strategic Luftwaffe.\nWhat I had to say now was special on the Army, and that this was certainly in a personal nature, namely, to remove the Reichsmarshal Goering from the Luftwaffe, and give him a different task. I said at an opportune moment that the Foreign Ministry also be eliminated from that position.\nQWould you give the name?\nAVon Rib entrop, I suggested to him that the Fieldmarshal Teuffel be put in charge of the units at the front, and I gave as a reason that Keitel is too lenient towards you, and he does not 'now how to get his ideas through with you. However, you must have somebody who would force you to observe correct military measures. I told him then that the most important task in my opinion was the home defense of Germany, the air home defense of Germany, and to consider that in the first place; and also the fighter production should be placed in the first place, in Armaments. I showed him these figures of the English, the American and the Russian Armaments explicitly, and I showed him how these Armaments would have their effect over Germany, and also at what time this would happen. I reported to him that many false reports were made to him, and I gave him an exact instance. I reproached him that he over-estimated himself, and his allies, and that he under-estimated the Russians, and Stalin's personality, and that that led to the Stalingrad collapse, and he must realize that if the attack were discontinued in the East, and if he would be able to hold the Dnjepr position, and if the air defense would be able to prepare a military preparation for peace, if the enemy would see that this crushing of Germany from the air, was no longer possible and if the Russians would see that they would not be able to cross the Dnjepr without the most serious losses that then there would be willingness on the other side to come to peace terms which, he, however, should start right away.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2456, "page_number": "1964", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "It might be possible to get off cheaply, however, only if they would act immediately.\nThen I also discussed the peace question, and I told him he might make a real peace with France without taking land away, and I am sure that France would still be able to consider that. The same applied to Belgium, and also Holland, as well as Norway. A peace with these countries would then make the greater countries of the Western territories more inclined to conclude peace with Germany which would be more advantageous for Germany. Those were matters of my opinion, and I did wish to touch on the important points, but I don't wish to touch upon all the other points. We listened to me and interrupted me only once, briskly, namely, upon the question whether he would be able to attack early in 1943 in the East, or not and I remember exactly that I told him more than twenty times, \"You cannot attack any more\" and first he said in a quiet way, then got more excited and more excited until he was very cross, and banged his fist on the table, and \"I must attack there.\" I told him at the end, \"I know I am very rude, but I shall not mention this question of attack any more and I want you to be convinced I shall not change my opinion.\"\nThen he waited for a short while, I began to speak of something else, and then suddenly he said, \"What would you say, Milch, if I would only make a short attack in order to be able to push through the Russian preparations before they start developing.\" I answered, \"I regard that as a defensive measure, because a soldier carries out his defense by attacking in turn,\" He then took a deep breath and said, \"Then we agree on that point.\" I said, \"No, I don't think we do. If you are successful you will continue to advance. I would say after 48 hours, no matter what would have been achieved, \"All troops retreat.\" Think of 1916 When the same error was made, when we did not succeed with a surprise attack we got obstinately stuck.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2457, "page_number": "", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "1964a", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2458, "page_number": "1965", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "QWitness, did you ever propose to make alterations in the cabinet and an entire change of the government system in Germany?\nAYes, I did mention that here before.\nQWe shall come back to that Speer question. However, this is an anti-question to that.\nAI'll have to mention that on 27 February I had spoken to Speer that now a war cabinet must be set up consisting of four or five personalities, namely of the best people we had and that this cabinet, under Hitler presidency would have full authority so that the dictatorship question would cease. We thought of people who were not with the government at that time but were outside the government. I told Hitler about that. He did not answer. He said he would think everything I told him over and told me if he wanted me he would send for me. May I add, so as not to give a wrong impression that I told him that I myself would be out of the question for the Luftwaffe, or for any other higher office. Otherwise, I would not be able to talk so frankly.\nQWitness, what influence did develop after Stalingrad with respect to the relationship between Hitler and Goering?\nTHE PRESIDENT:May I, before you go on, ask for the date of this conference with Hitler again?\nTHE WITNESS:It was on 5 March 1943.", "speakers": [ "THE WITNESS", "A", "THE PRESIDENT", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2459, "page_number": "1966", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "After I returned I spoke with the people who were nearest to me about that matter, and a few witnesses have made statements to that effect. I made exact records about that. But I have lost them, however. I cannot forget the whole matter because it was something extraordinary for me to talk to the highest man of the Reich in such a way. I had had several open discussions with him, but never in such a critical form.\nRegarding the question of how the relationship developed later on I have to say the following: It became worse and worse from time to time. It was due to a struggle which I had about the German air defense which also contradicted Hitler's idea of waging war, for this was the specific field of the Luftwaffe, and I as inspector general of the Luftwaffe in that capacity was forced to make suggestions. I did not give in to that matter, and I repeatedly brought it to that person's attention, in contrast with political proposals or proposals in the field of the army and navy, which were outside of my field of tasks and which I could bring to somebody's attention only if Hitler gave me his permission or if he wished me to.\nQWith respect to this conference, did you inform him of the fact you wanted to have Goering gone?\nAYes, I did. I told Goering about that. I did not want to stab him in the back.\nQHow, then, did your relationship with Goering become?\nAI do not believe that this single incident had any influence on our relationship, which was bad anyway. Goering was not the kind of a man who would hold it against me. He had a certain understanding of the circumstances. There were things about me he was much more annoyed about.\nQWitness, shortly before the end I would like to ask you a few minor questions. Did you have to see about the civilian air raid precautions?\nAYes, the civilian air raid precautions were immediately put under my charge after the French campaign. The question was to build pill boxes for the German population.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2460, "page_number": "", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "Very few things had been done during peace time in this direction and one apparently had no idea whatsoever about the war of bombs and their 1966a effects, because the great heavy bombs were only created in almost all countries during the war.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2461, "page_number": "1967", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "In spite of that, air raid shelters to a great extent had been planned by us; that is, the Air Armament Ministry, which a very conscientious man was in charge of. He never got tired of repeatedly bringing his requireTodt's death I put them before Speer, those responsible for construction Hitler himself decided regarding this question.\nThen we went ever to making small air raid shelters by protecting cellars.\nQ.Witness, did you ever have any discussions with Hitler with reference to the cement question?\nA.Yes, there was a conference in 1944 with Hitler, during which discussion we talked about the question of distribution of raw materials for construction purposes. That was early in 1944. I am trying to find the exact date I have it here. I proposed to Hitler at the time to put at the disposal of the city population larger amounts of concrete. He, further fortification in the West and North. I pointed out to him that for his new Fuehrer's Headquarters, which was to be built in Waldenburg in Silesia, he needed 28,000 tons of cement, and that had to be granted and agreed upon by Central Planning. That was exactly the amount needed for the entire civilian population, for their protection against air raids. I told him that this was a misproportion for which he could not take the responsibility. I asked kin on the basis of the comparison of these two figures to make a special agreement for the protection of civilians. He refused that rudely.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Dr. Bergold, with whom was this last conversation? It isn't quite clear.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2462, "page_number": "", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "DR. BERGOLD:Hitler.\nTHE DEFENDANT:There was a question of the Judge?\n1967 (a)", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD", "THE DEFENDANT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2463, "page_number": "1968", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "DR. BERGOLD:Well, I have already answered the question. I said Hitler.\nTHE DEFENDANT:Yes, that is it.\nBY DR. BERGOLD:\nQ.When was it that the enemy air raids were becoming felt by the German aircraft production?\nA.That was toward the middle of the year 1943, when the Americans started the heavy daylight raids against the German Luftwaffe industry as their main target. July, in particular, was the break which was very weak, when we had been able to produce over 1,000 fighters. Within the next few months, however, the entire amount of planes for the front was 2,600, and 1,050 of them were fighters, and the production was being increased steadily. If these air-raids had not started, then toward the end of September the output would have increased to over 2,000 fighters, because the preparations had already been made a long time in advance. However, due to those air raids, we always remained on the same level. Everything that increased was barely sufficient to cover the losses which were occurring during the air raids, and that was the critical moment, in my opinion, particularly with respect to air defense.\nQ.Are you through, witness?\nA.Yes, I am through with that statement.\nQ.What did you do about that danger?\nA.We had already previously started to transfer our industry to a certain extent. We moved into many civilian factories. Most of them were small so that we could produce only parts there, and then put them together in one central factory. Of the 12,000,000 square meters around that time, July of August 1943, we had already transferred 4,000,000 by the same means. We, of course, increased, the speed. Of course, in various places we had to go somewhere else because our old factory was no longer there; although all workers were still working in the ruins, both summer and winter. I was in a factory and, although it was 15 degrees below, there was no roof, nothing, and the attack had started two days before, the Assembly Line was working again, when I arrived there the first fuselage came out of that factory.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE DEFENDANT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2464, "page_number": "1969", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "That was an achievement of which I am still touched very deeply when I think of this. However, that is how our young boys were.\nIn spite of that fact, it was quite clear to me that the whole procedure of manufacturing could not possibly be kept up for a longer period of time, that it was a little bit more than twelve o'clock, because the destruction by the American bembers was extremely great. We called that \"Work made to measure.\"\nQ.Witness, with respect to transfer, did you then transfer, or did you plan to transfer the factories underground?\nA.No, I did not do that. I was repeatedly urged to do so. However, I knew exactly that if I should never get the construction because it was not only the workers that were lacking; neither the cement nor the machines that purpose did we have. I knew from my struggle with reference to the civilian air raid precautions what everything was like. We could not increase the ridiculous amount of 28,000 tons. In our case we did not need thousands tons, but we needed hundreds of thousands of tons and millions of tons of material if we really wanted to achieve something.\nThat is why I declared to Goering and Hitler that these projects could not possibly be filled and that it was, therefore, useless to spend material and energy on that.\nQ.That also applies to overground factories?\nA.Yes, it does, to an even greater extent than to the underground factories. In the underground factories you have to distinguish between various things. There were caves in Germany, namely, the potash mines. That is the town near Helmstedt that the witness Vorwald mentioned. I don't know if they ever started working or operating. However, nature had already formed them and had them ready for us. No construction work of any kind was necessary there. Of course, these things would have been taken up without much ado.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2465, "page_number": "1970", "date": "14 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-14", "text": "DR. BERGOLD: Thank you, that is sufficient. May it please Your Honor I think it is time.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Until Monday Morning at 9:30.\nTHE MARSHAL:This Tribunal is recessed until 0930 hours Monday morning.", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2466, "page_number": "1971", "date": "17 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-17", "text": "Official transcript of tho American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America, against Erhard Milch, defendant, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 17 March 1947, 0930 hours, Justice Toms, presiding.\nTHE MARSHAL:Persons in the courtroom will please find their seats. The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal No. II. The Military Tribunal is now in session. God save the United States of America, and this honorable Tribunal.\nThere will be order in the courtroom.\nDR. BERGOLD:May it please this Tribunal.\nBY DR. BERGOLD:\nQ.Witness, the last time you were giving us a description of the suggestions you made with Hitler with regard to achieving a change. What was the impression you had afterwards as to whether he was going to follow your suggestions or not?\nA.A that time I first of all hoped that he would somehow react to my suggestion, because in the assignment regarding Stalingrad it had been given by me too late, and I saw indications that at that time he was having confidence in me, and that he had confidence in my military ability, but during that week and month I waited for something to happen, but nothing did. In the Spring of 1943, after my conference, now attacks were ordered by him on the Eastern front. He was not making a defense for a possible defense of tho country, he was going to try to advance towards the Caucasus. As a result the German Army became stagnant on the Eastern front inspite of local success, and without results. It was only in November 1943 that he followed one of my suggestions, namely, to ascertain how many men were fighting in the East, as I said last Friday, and I need not repeat it. The attack was kind of catastrophic, but inspite of that no principal changes were made after that. In the other suggestions, both political, military, and those regarding the personnel, were not followed. Through that I lost my last hope, namely, we had a final basis favorable to Germany that could be established, regarding the bringing to an end this war through political means, in other words, peace negotiations, which might have had certain prospects of negotiations.", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "A.", "Q.", "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2467, "page_number": "1972", "date": "17 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-17", "text": "Q.That is enough, witness. Now I shall have to put to you this question. Why, after you recognized the fact did you remain with, or continue your activity at all. What were the arguments which made you place your service at their disposal at all?\nA.The main reason was that I was responsible to my people, and, even if all the plans failed to materialize, I, nevertheless, was still having one last hope at least, that a proper air defense could be arranged for Germany in order to protect our home country, and the people against the worst destruction of their homes, and places of culture. That was the main reason for me.\nQ.What then are the steps that you took in order to achieve your last final aim for final negotiations?\nA.After 1941 I concurrently forced a strangle, I would like to say, with Goering and with Hitler in order to achieve a tight air defense, which I considered necessary as my last hope, that was towards the foundation of the Jaegerstab.\nQ.Could you tell us about your earlier efforts before this formation of the Jaegerstab in more detail, though not to go into too many details.\nA.I can refer to the suggestions I made at the time, and describe to you every point of view in the timing of same. The first suggestion was the case on 4 January -- I beg your pardon, now, on 26 March 1941 with Goering. I was making a report to him to the effect that the situation which was still undergoing an impression of an attack against England would continue to develop, and that we would have to expect a very serious setback through the British. I attached particular importance to what I regarded at that time the protection of our home country, that is to say, the civilian population, which was not sufficient. Immediately after that conference I went on an air defense inspection which lasted for several weeks and in every town, hansiatic-towns, and in every \"Hansa\" town in the north I inspected construction work which was going on on the spot, that.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2468, "page_number": "1973", "date": "17 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-17", "text": "is to say, air raid shelters which were being constructed by the Todt's Ministry. I was making particular effort for the strengthening of this protection work. Fortunately, on 8 May, again in 1941, I made a similar personal report to Hitler, who was not saying anything as to commenting at that time. On the 7th and on the 20th of June, both days, I reported to Goering, after previously having handed him a detailed memorandum amounting to three typewritten pages, which was very long indeed for any memorandum sent to Goering, and I had pictured for him both the point of view of the organization, as well as the tactical points of view ingreat detail.\nI had suggested a unified command for the air defense, and demanded that need, as it had been the case up to that point; that of a division into two wester air fleets, and an independent command given for Germany. Likewise, I suggested to him a production program for fighters, and a training program for fighter pilots, and also the importance of night fighters. In either instance nothing happened, consequently, and then I went to see Goering twice during June, on the 23rd and on the 26th, that is to say, very shortly after the attack against Russian. In July I went to him three times, on the 4th, the 17th and 18th.\nThence again, once together with the technical people that was Udet, his general, and one of our best fighter pilots amongst them, Galland, and also with the others, Ihlefeld and Schnell, those were amongst the best fighter pilots at the time. Then they were, of course, slightly with me, with my own people, which they had the insight into the seriousness of the air battle with the British. Since neither Goering nor Hitler showed any interest or any reaction, I tried in August to get Fieldmarshal Keitel and to interest him in this question, hoping that he would try to place his influence upon Hitler. This was on the 14th and 16th of August. On the 20th of August, I talked to Goering in the presence of the Chief of the General Staff, and informed him of my efforts, and asked him to follow it up in the same sense with Hitler. In September I went to see Goering five times, which is on September 5th, 6th, 8th, 11th and the 18th, that is September 1941, and again sometimes together with representatives from industries, who were to explain to Goering that in case of destruction of a town, production would cease.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2469, "page_number": "1974", "date": "17 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-17", "text": "On 20th of October I went to him with new documentary evidence, and figures regarding pending air armament on the part of the enemy. At that time I scored a minor success, and Goering together with me and in the presence of Udet, and Jeschonek, Jeschonek being Goering's chief of Staff, went to Hitler on 31 October 1941. However, we were turned down, but in order to give Goering my peace offer, we went to see him the following day, 1 November, and with Udet, and I had General Vorwald, who had been a witness in this trial, and another one of our best fighter pilots with me named Desau, when on 19 November 1941 I took over the task of the FL I made it a condition that the program will include the air defense in its consideration, a completely different extent then up to them. At that point at that time a monthly production amou ting to 200 fighters is only to bring that view to a memory and it is continued.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2470, "page_number": "1975", "date": "17 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-17", "text": "I think I had better make it shorter. 17 and 18 December, went to see Goering, once again with the Chief of the General Staff. In Janurary, three visits to Goering, together with Gallant and, on another occasion, with Joschonek. 24 January, went to see Hitler with Goering and Chief of Staff. Once again Hitler turned us down. Four days later, 28 January, made a visit to Hitler accidently. It was that day that Gallant received the Diamond Needle of the Knight's Cross, and I had to go along on Goering's behalf. Once again both of us turned the conversation to air defense, but with out success. The 24th, incidentally, was January 1942.\nIn February detailed conferences with our Chief of Staff on two occassions. Chief of Staff had joined Hitler's point of view to the effect that attack should be in the foreground and not defense.\nIn March, three visits to Goering. On one occasion Minister Speer was there. Then follows a big meeting of the Chiefs of Fleets with Goering, where, once again, I touched upon this subject.\nIn May I am taking Goering over our experimental stations at Rochlin, where I show him new fighters and new fighter armament, showthem again the following day, this time to the Chief of Staff. During that month there were two further conferences dealing with defense with Goering, and there is one in June.\nIn July there are in all four -- No, I beg your pardon, in July there are two with Goering, and in August we once again are together with Hitler on the 10th.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2471, "page_number": "1976", "date": "17 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-17", "text": "In the meantime, through this inspection at Rechlin, I had aroused Goering's interest, and he too was now trying to act in favor of this program, but Hitler turned it down. The following day I visited Goering in order to revive his interest, which had been broken, and his resistance.\nIn August we once again discussed the matter together with Gallant, and we arranged that we would act on our own initiative independently as far as we could and against orders which had been given. A few days afterwards I gave the order to the Training Section, which was under my jurisdiction, the order once again to give priority to fighter pilot training. I ought to mention in this connection that in the beginning of the war the air force had only two training **** stations for fighter pilots, and one of those was dissolved after the beginning of the war.\nIn September I went back to Hitler on the same subject. Between the 11th and the 14th of October -- that is to say, during four days -I was together with Goering every day with regard to this fighter problem.\nOn 7 November Goering sent me the general commanding the bombers, who was making the request that all new fighter planes should be employed in the first place as fighter-bombers. That is to say, not for defense purposes, but for attack. This goes on through 1943, and I do not want to go into detail.\nOn 4 February Hitler is making the demand to me that transport planes should have priority and not fighters. This was just after Stalingrad, when the lack of transport aircraft was becoming apparent. A few days later, during February, Hitler is calling me on the telephone personally and now demands amphibious transport planes, since the evacuation of the Caucasus in the direction of the Krim would now have priority through using the sea route.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2472, "page_number": "1977", "date": "17 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-17", "text": "On 5 March -- that is just a few days afterwards - in a visit to Hitler, the order was given to the effect that high altitude bombers would now have priority; that is, no longer bombers, but most certainly not fighter planes. On 13 March Hitler is giving the order that the bombing war against Britain should now once again be accelerated and intensified. Two days later I pay another visit to Goering and report to him that this order can not be carried out, and this continues back and forth with regard to that program which was an impossibility and that the situation, more than before, made defense essential. This goes on through April.\nThere is another visit to Goering, and on 8 May Hitler sent for me and demanded new types of bombs. Subsequently, on 25 May, I made another attack on Goering, demanding that from now on new fighters, which had passed the initial tests excellently, should now have a priority on the program in a big way.\nToward the end of June 1943 I talked to Hitler's air adjutant, Colonel von Below, whom I called before me together with a number of well-known pilots, and I convinced him of the necessity of a defense in the air. This occurred several times afterwards, and Below supported me well, but he, too, was just as unsuccessful as I had been.\nOn 3 July 1943, the main subject during a conference Goering had with the chiefs of the air fleets was defense. Gradually my continuous reminders became too much for Goering. Particularly he did not like the fact that in front of all the others I would press matters like that, and there was a very serious argument between him and me, during which he said to me that my repeated written reports regarding defense, which I had made in my capacity as Inspector General, had not been in read by him at all.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2473, "page_number": "1978", "date": "17 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-17", "text": "He said, verbatim, \"Don't you kid yourself that I am reading the nonsense you are putting down on paper for me,\" whereupon I stated that in that case it was quite useless for me to carry out tours of inspection as Inspector General, and he thought, as far as he was concerned, it was useless.\nThis goes on throughout July. I no longer have any hope that Goering will help, no more than I have hope that the General Staff will help me, or the Chief of Staff will help me, and on 15 July I informed Minister Goebbels, who was playing a very important part with Hitler at that time, calling him to Rechlin and showing him our experiments. He promised that he would support me with Hitler, but that had no success either.\nOn 20 July 1943 I call all Ministers and State Secretaries of the German Reich and all Gauleiters to Rechlin to show them the means air defense had at its disposal. These people, of course, were particularly interested, especially the Gauleiters, in the defense of their home country, and I made a very frank speech before them, told them about our efforts of the past, and asked them to press Hitler at every opportunity.\nOn 23 July I went first to Goering and then with him to Hitler in order to make another attempt. Hitler would not listen to a thing. The following day, in order to obscure the impression he had from this conference with Hitler, I succeeded in getting Goering to come to Rechlin, and once, to discuss everything with him in practice.\nNow, on 28 July, at last, an order arrived to the effect that now air defense would have priority. How I thought at last my efforts had been crowned with success, but as early as a week later the air armament program once again occupied seventh place, since in the meantime some sort of serious events had occurred at the fronts, end one day after air defense had priority, I was ordered to appear before Hitler in regard to some other problem.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2474, "page_number": "1979", "date": "17 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-17", "text": "For the first time he was extremely unpleasant to me. He had never treated me badly before. This was the first time.\nNow, in spite of this, and two days after the priority order had arrived, I had a previously prepared program for the conversion to fighters, which I had started, and night fighters had been included on that occasion. About that time the monthly output of fighters had risen above 1,000. I could see that there were certain technical difficulties regarding materials, pre-fabricated materials, for instance, and I arranged with Speer that we should meet our department heads once a week in order to step up production of fighters. Those regular weekly meetings commenced on 3 August.\nAfter Jeschoneck's death I immediately talked to the new chief of the staff, Korten, and informed him. He concurred in my views. He had a very excellent relationship with Hitler, but in spite of that not even he succeeded in bringing about any changes.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2475, "page_number": "1980", "date": "17 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-17", "text": "Now, this goes on currently, and in October, 1943, Goering once again was prepared to do everything for fighters, but he could no longer score successes with Hitler. I, once again, tried in November to get Himmler interested, whom I met by accident when Hitler was making a speech to junior officers, which we had always been ordered to attend, and Himmler promised to support me. He had a good position and great influence with Hitler, but I didn't notice any success on his part.\nAt the end of November, we displayed new fighter types to Hitler at Insterburg, these jot planes, and Hitler was very much impressed but stated that bombers and transport planes had priority. In 1944 too this goes on without any changes occurring.\nHow, I could see that according to the time and the situation of this war great efforts on everyone's part in favor of defense would have been too late, and I come to the decision that now I would out my ties, I would cut loose, and this decision was arrived at by me at the end of January. I talked about this with my immediate collaborators, to whom I talked about it at various times.\nQ.Witness, just one question, I would like to interrupt and ask, can you clear up for us the question why Goering, who, after all was an expert, did not agree to your proposals and why he did not succeed in convincing Hitler?\nA.Goering knew Hitler's opinions accurately, I would say, attack, not defense. Suggestions which he made cautiously regarding defense had been turned down by Hitler. Goering was always under the impression that Hitler's ideas came from God, and that he couldn't make mistakes so that would be the right road. In 1941 and '42 no larger air destruction had happened in Germany, and he must have closed his eyes to possible future developments. When towards the end of 1943 he was really convinced that air defense ought to be pushed into the foreground by him too, he had lost his influence on Hitler.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2476, "page_number": "1981", "date": "17 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-17", "text": "The Stalingrad affair was the changing point for Goering too. At that time he had favored supplies being flown in by air, and Hitler was taking umbrage over this, and after that period he was excluding him more and more and treating him worse. On one occasion Goering was becoming rather energetic before Hitler with regard to this defense question in my presence, but Hitler yelled at him in an almost indescribable fashion so Goering shut up. He thought that it was his duty, his duty and his faith that he should remain silent before Hitler.\nIf I may carry on at this point, I would say that in order to carry out my decision to bail out, I came to an agreement with Speer to the effect that air armament with its small factories would now be transferred to his ministry too. Since Goering would not have agreed to this at all, we wanted to found a fighter staff, a Jaegerstab, which was to take over the production now and which would facilitate this transfer to Speer. On the 23rd of February the idea was born to form a fighter staff, and during the subsequent days I talked it over with Speer, who was sick at the time, and on the 2nd of March, 1944, the first meeting of the Jaegers tab took place.\nMay I add that this was not an independent authority and that consequently this staff did not have any executive powers or any powers to give orders. It was composed of people from the various ministries, the bulk of which came from the Armament Ministry. We, the G. L. supplied the second biggest portion, and then there were representatives from the Railway Ministry, Post Ministry, and various others, who joined. Only considerations were taking place in this staff. Recommendations were made. The actual execution as far as ** every department was concerned was a matter for its own ministry, and, of course, independent members of the fighter staff, therefore, once they had returned to their ministry would there have to draft corresponding orders or obtain such orders from the higher sources, from the higher people concerned.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2477, "page_number": "1982", "date": "17 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-17", "text": "In other words, the Armament Ministry could accept or turn down these proposals, just as could all other ministries, and carry them out or refrain from carrying them out. As far as the Air Ministry was concerned, I was the responsible person.\nOn the 4th of March we obtained Goering's agreement and on the 5th Hitler's agreement. Apart from these meetings of the fighter staff my own conferences in my offices continued with my technical departments.\nI can add very briefly what my other efforts regarding defense were when this transfer was taking place. On one occasion on the 19th of April I went to see Goering and on the 23rd of May I went to see Hitler, but Hitler merely gave the order on that day that this new jet fighter, which was the only one which had prospects for effect at that time, was not to be employed as a fighter, but only as a blitz bomber. This aircraft hadn't at all been designed for such a purpose. Conversion became necessary which, as far as the use of that aircraft was concerned at that limit of the war, out us back six months.\nAt that point I became abundantly aware of the fact that no defense of Germany would materialize. Subsequently I retired on the 20th of June. Perhaps I should go into this in detail, but there is one more thing I can say, that at my retirement Hitler demanded from Speer that the four engine bomber made by Heinkel would have first priority of air arr.ar.ient. Here again there was only the idea, nothing but the idea of attack, not defense.\nIf I can summarize it very briefly then there were fifty-four visits of mine to Goering during those years of dealing with defense. I went to see Hitler sixteen times. Fifteen men from the air force not belonging to my department, aside from the conference which I had with Goering, were consulted by me during conferences and inspections lasting for days when I tried to convince them, and likewise apart from that large figure which I previously mentioned of ministers, gauleiters, state secretaries, there were thriteen individual actions on my part in connection with important people in order to convince them of the necessity of defense so that they too would represent my view before Hitler.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2478, "page_number": "1983", "date": "17 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-17", "text": "Altogether this amounted to exactly ninety-nine acts according to my notes.\nQ.Witness, you have just testified that you had founded the Jaegerstab in order to gradually leave your post. Did that further have any other purpose, for instance, the removal of existing difficulties outside of your own department?\nA.Yes. Air armament was part of the entire armament program. Of course, it had very small, very negligible powers. Hitler was favoring army and naval rearmament very strongly and demanding those. Speer's ministry for years had had to carry out far-reaching interference and intervention into all problems which were important for my industry. As a result experts and other workers had been taken away from us quite simply everywhere. The armament inspectors and defense construction commanders, both of whom were under Speer, of course, succeeded in carrying this through. It was merely by accident that I learned of this in individual cases. For instance, quite accidentally one of the industrialists came to see me. We raised objections but we could not alter the situation, something which I touched upon the other day in here. Now I was wanting to use the Jaegerstab in order to transfer part of this responsibility for air armament to Speer and his ministry so that such intervention, which was particularly noticeable in the material sector, could no longer be carried out.\nThe man who had a task approximately like my own in Speer's ministry was Mr. Sauer. Sauer was a very clever man, very able, very energetic, and since he was always sent for reports to Hitler personally, he knew Hitler and his intentions intimately, and he knew therefore that Hitler wasn't so keen on air armament, and from that he drew the conclusion which led to these interventions in our sphere. I was very anxious to have him join the Jaegerstab so that there too he would assume his part of the responsibility.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2479, "page_number": "1984", "date": "17 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-17", "text": "There was a struggle about this after with Speer until it finally came about that Sauer joined the Jaegerstab.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2480, "page_number": "1985", "date": "17 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-17", "text": "I was very anxious to have him join the Jaegerstab so that there too he would assume his part of the responsibility. There was a struggle about this, even with Speer, and it was finally achieved that Saur joined the Fighter Staff, but I wasn't going to found the Jaegerstab at all without him. And it turned out, eventually, that, very energetically, Saur now tackled this new task and he did in fact succeed to some extent, in bringing Hitler at least to a standstill. But Hitler's views and Hitler's orders, he could not change either. Apart from that, of course, it was necessary, if I were to transfer armament work to Speer, the final armament, this would have to reach Saur's hands eventually, so that it was equally essential that Saur should be included right from the start.\nQDid you give him the smaller or larger responsibility within the Jaegerstab?\nALet me answer it like this: I gave him as much freedom of action as possible, since he was going to take it over later, and it was his nature, that, if he touched something, he would look after it very energetically, and I was happy to see that ho was going ahead so emphatically.\nQWitness, you have made notes about everything you did during the war. Can you tell this High Tribunal how or whether, in the Jaegerstab too, you were gradually getting out? Can you tell us how many meetings during individual months you participated in?\nAIn March, I participated in 15 meetings. Of course they were taking place daily, and I joined two trips. In April, I participated only in eight meetings, and one journey. In May, I attended five meetings and two journeys. In June, I joined two meetings only, and again, two journeys. And, in July, I didn't attend any meeting at all, neither a meeting nor a journey. I took more active interest in the journeys, totalling seven, in order to go out into the provinces and show that the handing over of my task to Saur was taking place with my agreement. There are figures, March 15, then eight, then two.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2481, "page_number": "1986", "date": "17 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-17", "text": "QYou mean the meetings?\nAYes; that applies to meetings. In other words, I participated in a total of 30 conferences.\nQBut there was one more on the 1st of August 1944, wasn't there?\nAThat was after my retirement. It was a meeting when Speer was in the chair in which the Fighter Staff was now finally discontinuing. its work since the tasks of fighter staffs were now being transferred to the spheres of ordinary armament, under Speer, which organization it was joined with. It was a purely formal meeting of handing over, and I deliberately took part, so as not to create the impression that I was leaving reluctantly or that I was being angry about anything, since, of course, the exact opposite was the case.\nQWitness, the prosecution submitted a document,NOKW-359, Exhibit No. 75, notes, or rather, shorthand notes made of a Jaegerstab meeting, 27 June 1944. Did you attend this meeting on the 27th of June 1944, witness? I should like to ask the Secretary General to obtain photostat copy of this document,NOKW-359, and have it brought to the courtroom.\nAI was not present on the 27th of June.\nTHE PRESIDENT:That's Exhibit 75?\nDR.BERGOLD: 75. It's in Document Book 4, page 161 of the English copy.\nBY DR. BERGOLD:\nQSo that, witness, according to your notes, you were (imprisoned)?\nANo; I wasn't. I took very accurate notes about that.\nQAll right, I shall come to this in detail when we get to the point. But, in the meantime, will you answer the question please, what did the Jaegerstab have to do with the construction work of the air armament?\nAThe Jaegerstab merely had to lay down the part of the country where this construction was to take place, and what sizes of manufac ture were demanded, because that depended upon the article which was to be manufactured.", "speakers": [ "DR.", "A", "THE PRESIDENT", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2482, "page_number": "", "date": "17 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-17", "text": "If I was making wings for aircraft, then these wings had certain sizes, and certain sizes also applicable to the moving belt. Consequently it was up to 1986-A the Jaegerstab to lay down the measures of these factories' halls.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2483, "page_number": "1987", "date": "17 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-17", "text": "Otherwise, the Jaegerstab had nothing to do with such building work.\nQBut, there is frequent mention of building work in Jaegerstab meetings, subterranean building work and work on the ground. What is this due to?\nA.We had to know whether building was going on at all and we had to know the dates when we could move into these buildings with our armament work, and, apart from that, there were clear cut orders to the effect from Goering, regarding those caves, tunnels, and such-like, and also from Hitler, regarding surface concrete construction work.\nQWitness, there have been statements contained in affidavits to the effect that such building work was being carried out and that these orders had been given by Hitler and Goering because the Jaegerstab had demanded them.\nAMay I give you the following explanation? The requests originated from the end of 1943. I had discussed the possibilities of such building work in great detail with Speer, since Speer was a building minister at the same time, and he had an excellent picture of these problems. He convinced me very rapidly that this building work couldn't be carried out during war tire at all, since there was a shortage of materials and of labor. And, likewise, there wasn't time enough to carry out such building work. We were -- both of us -- aware of the fact that it would be better to use building workers and cement for the protection of the civilian population, whose martyrdom had in the meantime reached the stage of the insufferable. Consequently, in the most severe manner possible, I opposed such building, because I considered them a useless effort, which wouldn't get us anywhere. Consequently I was never in the least interested in such building work during that period, and particularly because of that question I had clashed with Goering and Hitler at that time.\nQThat was something I was just going to ask you. What did you do in order to put your deviating opinion on record, and to stop orders which you considered nonsensical?", "speakers": [ "A", "A.", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2484, "page_number": "1988", "date": "17 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-17", "text": "AI said the same things which I've just said here, namely -but at that time, they didn't get anywhere.\nQWitness, I shall come back to this meeting of the 24th of June, once again. The 24th -- oh, no! I mean the 27th of June, 1944, and I shall put to you the point that on page 26 of this document which I have read, your name appears on one occasion, and it states: \"Milch: would you describe the whole situation briefly to the General Staff.\" You're saying that to a certain Mr. Krause. \"--so that you are actually listed in the record?\"\nAThat is most certainly an error. During that stage I wasn't there at all. I wasn't in the place where the Jaegerstab met.\nQCan you describe where you were in those days?\nAYes; in the morning I was in my ministry, the Jaegerstab was having its meetings at Tempelhof. There I was carrying out the handing over of a completely different part of my work, and at midday I left to some place outside Berlin.\nDR. BERGOLD:I should like to put this part of the minutes before this High Tribunal, and with reference to this passage where Milch is speaking, I should like to draw your attention to it.", "speakers": [ "A", "DR. BERGOLD", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2485, "page_number": "1989", "date": "17 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-17", "text": "Q.Witness, was it your habit that when you were present during such meetings, you would only speak once? Were you otherwise sitting there silently?\nA.I am awfully sorry but I did not do that. Otherwise I would not be sitting in this place now. Might I add also with reference to this subject, that seven days previous I completely disappeared from the whole matter. This conference before Hitler with Goering on the 20th of June resulted in the order that I would leave my post as a practical matter on the 20th of June, both as State Secretary as well as GL. After that moment I did not practical work at all and a transition stage for the Jaegerstab was not essential since for some time the business there had been handled by Saur. After this date I only had a conference, a GL conference, with my own people when I said goodbye to them. That was just after the 20th. I have got it here. It was on the 30th of June. And of course Verwald, who ought to have represented me but was not there because he was sick, and his deputy, had the work handed over to them by me insofar as this work was a question for the GL, and I had completed that on June 30. On that day I merely made a short farewell speech in order to take leave of my old collaborators.\nQ.Witness, I want to ask you once again with solemn reference to your oath, can you say with the greatest possible certainty that on that 27th of June 1944 you were not present?\nA.That I can say with absolute certainty because I know exactly what I was doing during that morning when I was in Berlin.\nTHE PRESIDENT:In the English document book this appears on page 161 of Document Bock 4, and the passage that you are referring to - the quotation from Milch - does not appear. Why do you bring it up? It isn't in the English document book at all.\nDR. BERGOLD:Your Honors, that is something I was just coming to because through this I was going to show how unreliable these records - these minutes - of those meetings are. If a man is described es present and sneaking during a meeting by the stenographer - the court re porter - although he isn't present, then it shows how little documentary value can be attached to such document.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2486, "page_number": "1990", "date": "17 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-17", "text": "THE WITNESS:I might add something to this. There have been frequent complaints from individual gentlemen to the effect that they were being quoted as speakers present.\nQ. (By Dr. Bergold) Would you repeat that, witness?\nA.There have been frequent complaints from gentlemen that they had been listed as present and speakers in the records but that they had not spoken at all, or that they had not been there at all, and also gentlemen had been present who had spoken who were equally complaining that their words had been attributed to someone else. That happened quite often. There used to be only one stenographer taking notes.\nDR. BERGOLD:Your Honors, the reason why I am referring to the German minutes of this affair is because that is the decisive one. The English translation, of course, is not authentic. The German record is authentic.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Well, you are merely attacking the veracity, the credibility, of the whole system of taking the minutes.\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes, quite, the entire system.\nQ. (By Dr. Bergold) Witness, let us return to this building work. Is it not correct to say that now after this Hitler and Goering order had not been abolished in spite of your attempts, that the Jaegerstab was now responsible for supervision over such buildings or the supervision of the carrying out of such orders respectively?\nA.No, no, that was not the job of the Jaegerstab. For that Hitler had appointed the OT, contrary to the previous procedure, according to which OT was the only building outside Germany - OT being Organization Todt - and Speer's refusal with reference to this building work had linked to it that Hitler had by-passed Speer and had taken over the carrying-out of such building through OT himself. Speer too had been comparatively removed from such building work. There was considerable anger between Speer and Hitler due to this question at the time.", "speakers": [ "THE WITNESS", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2487, "page_number": "1991", "date": "17 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-17", "text": "QWitness, did the Jaegerstab have anything to do with workers?\nAIf you mean building workers, no.\nQI mean generally speaking, for the moment.\nAI see. Well, you have to draw a clear dividing line. Those were completely different conceptions for us, armament workers and building workers. Armament workers came precisely through existing channels; in other words, requests made to Sauckel by the industries and fulfillment of such requests or non-fulfillment of such requests by Sauckel. News about this first of all went to Speer's ministry through the armament inspectorates, and secondly, there were statistics and reports monthly from industry to air force. Building workers, on the other hand, did not concern any one of us at all, not even statistically speaking; that is, insofar as the CL was concerned, and his representatives on the Jaegerstab. This was entirely a problem for Todt's organization. We knew absolutely nothing about this problem as far as we were concerned.\nQWitness, did the Jaegerstab include a member of the CBA, the Plenipotentiary for Labor, Sauckel, on its board?\nAI cannot at this moment recollect that accurately, but I believe not. As far as I know, these questions were only being dealt with in the sphere of speer's ministry. That was Mr. Schmelter, who has been a witness in this trial, and who on his part used to hear our requests and used to take our requests to his ministry to help them as far as he could.\nQIn order to help in labor problems did Schmelter have to go to Sauckel on his part?\nAYes, quite decidely. He, on his own initiative, could not distribute workers because he did not have any workers reserves of any kind.\nQI shall now put before you the plan of the Jaegerstab which has been submitted as Exhibit 70,NOKW 261, which is contained in Document Book IV, on page 1 of the document book of the prosecution - Exhibit 70,NOKW 261, Document Book 4, page 1.\nWitness, is this an absolutely accurate plan and are the names listed on the right-hand side all leading and permanent members of the Jaegerstab?", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2488, "page_number": "1992", "date": "17 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-17", "text": "A.With reference to this let me say that only the right-hand column belongs under Jaegerstab. Where it says afterwards, responsible department groups and leading departments, we are concerned with the very sources in the other ministries which on their own part were dealing with recommendations by the Jaegerstab to carry them out or not, as the case might have been, and then further to the left we have the higher bureaucratic sources in these departments which have the work to do, but outside the sphere of the Jaegerstab.\nHeads of the Jaegerstab, Speer and Milch, that is correct. That is correct, and as long as Speer was sick, Saur, of course, was his deputy, since I myself could not represent him as I did not give orders to Speer's ministry. I could only give orders to the organization of the GL. Pauli, Supplies - Pauli, that is correct.\nQ.Was he a permanent member?\nA.I would assume so. I did not call these men in. Everybody sent his own men from his own ministry so that personally I only appointed members from the air force side, whereas Saur and Speer had to appoint their own people, and this man, Pauli, came from Speer's ministry, of course.\nConstruction, Schlem; he too came from Spear's ministry. Road and Transport, Nagel; also Speer's ministry. Quota System end Raw Materials, Stoffregen; once again comes from Speer's ministry. Labor Allocation, Schmelter; he too came from the armament ministry. Allocation of Output, Birkenholz; those were additional PX supplies and such as compensations for extra work. That again is Speer's ministry. Transfers, Speh; he too comes from Speer's ministry. You can see that in the third column going from left to right. Then there are additional supplies, semi-completed materials. That nan was called Schaf. He too comes from Speer's ministry. Fighter Deputy for Production, Lange; he came from Saur's office in Speer's ministry.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2489, "page_number": "1993", "date": "17 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-17", "text": "Q.Just one moment, please. I would like to stop you for a moment. Wasn't it to be expected that such a man who had part responsibility for fighters should have come from your ministry?\nA.This is not a question of technical developments of fighter types. This is merely a question of mass production. In other words, it was a production expert who was qualified as an expert on motor car production, for instance.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2490, "page_number": "1994", "date": "17 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-17", "text": "Then follows representatives for Production and Fighter Repairs. He, too, comes from Saur's department in Speer's ministry. Then follows planning of many factory sites. Dr. Wegener, too, comes from Speer. Immediate Measures and Aircraft Matters, I think it says.\nLucht -- he, too, comes from Speer's ministry ...\nQJust one moment. But these people were being used for special purposes in the Fighter Production program; that they should come from Speer's ministry -- is that evidence to the effect that there had been this transfer already?\nAYes; without question. First of all, regarding the change-over; and secondly, Air Armament, of course, had even previously had not anything to do with these questions and was depending on the organization of the Armament Ministry in any case. Then comes the question of Mining Operations -Gabel is the name; and this was construction work demanded by Goering -Subterranean work -- and he belongs to the Ministry. Then comes the question of Rail and Water Transportation: Pueckel. He belongs to the Traffic Ministry. He is a railway representative. Then comes Signal System; he belongs to the Postal Ministry (Zerbel). Then follows Medical Expert Advice Dr. Poschmann. He, I think, belonged to the General Commissioner for Hygiene. That was Brandt, who, as far as I know, came directly under Hitler. That is the doctor, Brandt; not Himmler's man.\nThen follows Special Subterranean Construction: Kammler. He came under the Reichsfuhrer SS Himmler.\nQJust one moment. Was he a permanent member of the Jaegerstab?\nAI can only recollect having seen him once, rather briefly. He might have been there more often but I only attended a minor portion of all these conferences, of course.\nQWas he a leading member?\nANo; certainly not. He was a liaison man from Himmler who somehow -I don't know how or through whom -- was being brought into these tasks, presumably by a direct order from Hitler.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2491, "page_number": "1995", "date": "17 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-17", "text": "QWas he concerned with the actual tasks of the Jaegerstab, or only with the order he had with Hitler?\nAWell, of course, only with that task. I know that he had been talking to Goering, too, on one occasion. It became apparent from some sort of correspondence, I think.\nThen follow the three main committees for Aircraft: Aircraft Engines and Aircraft Equipment. They were, as far as they were, main committees under Speer's jurisdiction. And as far as these men: Frydag, Werner and Heyne, who are listed are concerned, they, as persons, were advisors to the so-called Industrial Committees. They were advisors of the GL. In other words, they had to give tasks. As far as they were advisors, they were independent, on the same level with the GL. They were not under his command as far as they were main committees; they were part of the administration of the industry, and were in that capacity under Speer's command.\nThen follows Anti-Air Raid Protection: Schnauder. He was under our -the Air Forces -- command, the so-called Thirteenth Inspectorate for Civilian Air Raid Protection. Then the liaison officer listed, the liaison officer of the Air Force: He was a member of the general staff of the Air Force and had been detailed with them. And then there was a liaison officer with the Chief of Army Armament and OKW. He was under the command of the commander of the Home Forces, and through that directly under Keitel.\nQWitness, who composed this list of persons? Who worked that?\nAThat was Saur's job. The bulk of these people he had to decide upon in any case.\nQWere you previously asked as to who was to be taken in?\nANo. Considering the type of collaboration, this is neither necessary nor possible.\nDR. BERGOLD:Your Honors, I should like to make a pause now since it is ten to eleven.\nTHE PRESIDENT:We will make a pause.\nTHE MARSHALL:This Tribunal will be in recess for fifteen minutes.", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHALL", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "Q", "A" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2492, "page_number": "1996", "date": "17 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-17", "text": "THE MARSHAL:The Tribunal II is again in session.\nQ.Witness, I'm still speaking of the construction. Not so long ago it was mentioned that you gave a report to Hitler with reference to the general concession situation. That was during a meeting of the Jaegerstab. What did you tell him? That does not mean that the Jaegerstab in spite of everything had the constructions under it.\nA.My speech on the 6th of April 1944, at Hitler's was a reference to construction and had nothing whatsoever to do with the Jaegerstab. Actually, it was a construction quota, a distribution; in other words, the distribution of cement, stones, tiles, and wood for construction purposes, namely, the distribution on the various contingent bearers. That is a task of the Central Planning Board. With reference to this construction material, when the final drawing up came, no cement for a single stone was distributed; but that was expressed in construction quotas. As Speer at the time was sick, I had to get Hitler's permission for the Central Planning Board. It was a day which I mentioned before, namely, when I drew Hitler's attention to the fact that for Hitler's new headquarters just as many contingent construction quota were distributed as for the civilian airraid precaution program of the entire population. Altogether there were 28,000 tons of cement. They were all included in that figure.\nQ.Witness, in some other passage the point is discussed that the construction quota of the Jaegerstab amounted to 550 millions; and here the Jaegerstab is the one that is the contingent or quota bearer. How can we understand that?\nA.Before the Jaegerstab existed they had for the constructions the air ministry, which was the quota bearer. In other words, in Germany we called that the person or the ministry for whom the construction was to take place, that person for which purpose or for whose purpose constructions were to be carried out. If a man wanted to build himself a house, then he instructed or ordered an engineer or architect to build it. The man himself was the construction orderer, that is, the man who was going to own the house, and the architect was the \"Bauunternehmer\" or the man taking over the construction.", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "A.", "Q." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2493, "page_number": "1997", "date": "17 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-17", "text": "In this particular case the air ministry was the ministry to own the construction because the constructions were being built for the air benefit; and the organization Todt or the construction organization in Speer's group were the architects.\nWhen the Jaegerstab came and there were orders from both Hitler and Goering for construction work, then somebody had to be the person to own the construction afterwards on whose account the constructions quotas went, if this man did not want the construction and knew nothing about the construction questions.\nI cannot tell if I have been explicit enough.\nQ.Witness, the construction work which was stated by Hitler which had to be constructed either by Kammler or Dorsch, was that all for the purpose of the Jaegerstab or also for other armament purposes?\nA.I know that also for many other purposes or, rather, these constructions were meant for many other purposes because if these questions were discussed in the Jaegerstab I repeatedly heard Sauer or some of his representatives saying, \"We wish to change this; we want to use concrete, reinforced concrete here; or here, for instance, we will use V-2 rockets.\"", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2494, "page_number": "1998", "date": "17 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-17", "text": "That is how it fluctuated. In any case I know that the subterranean constructions or tunnels were meant for other ministries and purposes.\nQWitness, did you ever near about the fact that for the construction of the surface concrete factories concentration camp inmates were to be used?\nAI heard that in the Jaegerstab, I believe; and that is how we can explain Kammler's task.\nQWitness, in any of your capacities as GL, as member of the Central Planning Board, or member of the Jaegerstab, what did you have to do with the concentration camp inmates? Did you apply for those?\nANo, we had nothing whatsoever to do with it. But they were requisitioned in a manner which I did not know at the time, or, rather, they were assigned to the industry. At that time I knew from a conference that In Oranienburg, near Heinkel, or East Heinkel the people were being used for the concentration camps which were near there and that laborers had been withdrawn from there and sent to Heinkel's. I heard there that one of my men said that the work that was being done over there was good work, I did not myself see these inmates while working. However, at that time I was convinced of the fact on the basis of my visit to the concentration camp of Dachau in 1935 that these were in the main only German criminals.\nQWitness, I shall submit to you now a document, Number 1584-PS, Exhibit Number 71, from Book Number IV of the prosecution, with reference to the Jaegerstab. This is the fourth document from the beginning.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2495, "page_number": "1999", "date": "17 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-17", "text": "I wish you to take a look at the telegram of the 14th of February 1944 sent by Goering to Himmler. Do you remember this telegram and what did you have to do with it?\nANo, I only saw this here for the first time at these trials, for I myself did not send this request. It seems to deal with laborers for the transfer of the industry to subterranean sanctuaries. We had nothing to do with that question, not even indirectly. As Goering himself was the man who requested the subterranean construction works, it could possibly be in connection with his wish. That ZBV squadron is mentioned here which had been set up at Himmler's. I did not know that myself. I had heard from Speer, however, that the SS required some counterpart for whatever services they furnished. At Speer's they had asked for a certain percentage of the armament so that I con understand that here they applied for an air formation from Goering for some purpose which is unknown to me.\nQWitness, I want you to go through the pages. You'll see here a letter of Himmler's in which there are reports to Goering as to what purposes concentration camp inmates were used for. Do you know of Himmler's latter here and the charge, which is a little bit farther on? And did you know anything about those things?\nANo, I cannot recall anything at all about this matter.\nQThe whole number of factories are mentioned here in which concentration camp inmates were used. Didn't you know anything at all about all these factories?\nAMay I go through the document? It says here, \"Construction of ack ack positions, and than manufacture of ack ack guns.\" We had nothing to do with that.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2496, "page_number": "2000", "date": "17 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-17", "text": "Then as to the construction or the completion of the plants at Siemens-Schuckert Auschwitz, we had nothing to do with them. When later an airplane parts production at Erla-Leipsiz, we did have something to do with this.\nQ.Witness, I don't want to go through the single items here in detail, as the witness Haertl has already done so. What I want to know from you is, is it the truth you did not know anything about these factories except the Heinkel in Oranienburg?\nA.No, all I knew was the Heinkel-Oranienburg factory, that is all. I went over this, and I find that a great part of these factories here which were mentioned had nothing to do with the air industry.\nQ.Witness -\nTHE PRESIDENT:Just a minute. With the plant in Butschowitz, which was making rear control apparatus for the M-101, for the Messerschmidt, did you have anything to do with that?\nTHE WITNESS:Your Honor, what page is this?\nQ.It is on the second page of Himmler's letter.\nA.Yes, the second page of Himmler's letter, yes, it seems. This is the last aircraft plant at Butschowitz making of certain parts of planes, Your Honor.\nQ.All right.\nA.I did not know of a factory by the name of Zwedau. I did not know what it was all about.\nQ.Zwedau?\nA.Sledau, Your Honor. I did not know where it is supposed to be.\nQ.Are we looking at the same document? I am looking at a letter from Himmler to Goering, Document No. 1584-PS, dated 9 March 1944?\nA.Yes.\nQ.Is that the one you are looking at?\nA.Yes, Your Honor.\nQ.Now, near the end of the letter, which is the second paragraph from the end a reference is made about manufacturing fourteen-thousand wooden rear control apparatuses for Messerschmidts.", "speakers": [ "THE WITNESS", "Q.", "A.", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2497, "page_number": "", "date": "17 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-17", "text": "Do you see chat?\n2000A.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2498, "page_number": "2001", "date": "17 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-17", "text": "A.Yes, I do, Your Honor.\nQ.You mean to tell us that you did not know this was being done. das not this done for the Luftwaffe?\nA.I am certain of them, that this was being built for the Luftwaffe, however, there were sub-orders which were given them by the industry, that directly the G-L has been informed about it, and in these singular instances.\nQ.You mean to say you did not know about this particular factory, or what it was doing for the Luftwaffe?\nA.Your Honor, we from the G1 gave out orders to the industry, namely, to the main factory where these people had their parts made, or their single parts; that happened in the main factory, or in a subsidiary branch, or with foreign factories with sub-orders. It was not our task to know that, therefore, we did not know which factory they were given to.\nQ.I understand the system of sub-contracts. I merely asked whether you know about this one. I understand that contracts are lot out to the sub-contractors. I merely asked whether you know about this particular one?\nA.I know nothing whatsoever about this special case. Your Honor.\nQ.All right. You did know about the Heinkel works at Oranienburg?\nA.Yes, I learned that, Your Honor. I learned that an agreement had been reached either immediately between the Heinkel factory and the concentration camp of Oranienburg; however, we only learned about these things much later. Probably it was during the end of my activity where.\nBY DR. BERGOLD:\nQ.Witness, you just told us that the SS always received some sort of payment for the services which they gave by putting concentration camp inmates at somebody's disposal. Did you as GL ever pay or give anything to the SS for those activities for the use of concentration camp inmates?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "BY DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2499, "page_number": "2002", "date": "17 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-17", "text": "A.I can not speak of gifts; we had nothing whatsoever we could give away to these SS. Whatever we had to give away we gave away to Goering. We gave for instance portable typewriters -- Goering gave them planes.\nQ.How did you say that, say it again?\nA.Goering gave an order to give Himmler two YU-52's. They of course, were built in our industry, and we had to carry out those orders. Here they discussed a whole squadron. These orders were probably given out by the Quartermaster General. This is a transport passenger plane, and was not given out by us directly, but we only built it. I gave them all to the Quartermaster General, and from there they were sent down. With reference to these passenger planes, I knew they were or had been sent to Himmler. I knew nothing of this squadron here.\nQ.Did you know what Himmler wanted them for?\nA.No. That is, as I said before, I did not give them to Himmler myself. I have an idea what Himmler used to do with them, as he used to do a lot of flying, and he only wanted a plane for his own purpose, and one for his staff. I think that is what they were used for.\nQ.Witness, otherwise you had nothing to do with the concentration camp, or the concentration camp directly, did you?\nA.I believe a letter was submitted to me once. I did not know whom it was sent to, that letter which said we had to thank somebody immediately. We had not done so, and, therefore, the help which the SS wanted to give us would have been withdrawn if we would not thank them. The man concerned came to our planning office for Speer. That man came to see me, and I told him to show this to Goering for his signature. However, he said at the same time that he was a technical officer of Goering's at the planning office, and Goering had said I was to sign it. It was then the only case which I can think of right now which I am accounting for while I was with the GL, namely, where I thanked somebody for something; however, I have no exact reaction with reference to this letter.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2500, "page_number": "2003", "date": "17 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-17", "text": "Q.Witness, did you hear in connection with service for concrete construction work, that Hitler gave orders then for the use of onehundred thousand Jews, or did the Fighter Staff request this?\nA.I aim sure that the Jaegerstab did not do that. I can not tell exactly for sure if before the collapse I knew anything at all about this matter. I know from the record that Hitler had a discussion, or was to have a discussion on 4 January 1944 about this question. How ever, I know that these discussions lasted for quite a few days, I believe, from the 4th of January I participated for a very short time in these conversations. I did not know, or remember, or I can not recall if during the time I was in office they had discussed that point.\nQ.Did you later on find out that the concentration camp inmates, or rather Jewish concentration camp inmates, were used in this construction?\nA.I never found out for sure.\nQ.However, in the sessions of the Jaegerstab they had discussed that point?\nA.Yes, however, I can not remember anything about it. Many things were discussed there every day, so that it is not quite possible to remember every detail that they discussed.\nQ.During these conferences or meetings, the number of which you had mentioned, did you always or permanently participate in these conferences?\nA.No, I was called out several times, or very often. I left on my own sometimes in order to make certain arrangements in connection with my other field of tasks, otherwise, I would not be able to do any work whatsoever in my other field of tasks. At that time I had the whole work of General Foorster under my orders, and also the entire training of the Luftwaffe; on top of that were the questions of the Inspectorate General and his problems.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2501, "page_number": "2004", "date": "17 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-17", "text": "Q.Witness, I shall come now to your speech of 25 March 1944, which has been repeatedly mentioned here. DocumentNOKW 017, Exhibit 54. It is your speech to the Chief Engineers of the Luftwaffe and the Chief Quartermasters. It says here at one point that for the construction a few hundred thousand laborers were being used who were withdrawn from other places. By that don't you mean these 100,000 Jews we just mentioned?\nA.No, under no circumstances, but at that time from many other constructions which were already operating workers had been transferred here for those purposes.\nQ.Witness-\nA.May I add to that this: I could not possibly imagine why Jews would be used as construction workers. Therefore, I am sure that it would be strictly untrue. Jews are not known as carpenters and bricklayers. They are mostly people who work in offices. I don't believe that one could possibly expect construction work from them. I myself as a man who has never done that kind of work, I don't believe that I would qualify for this type of work.\nQ.Witness, explain to us now the purpose of this speech of yours, which uses rather strong words.\nA.During the strong air raids we had, many material stocks, mainly of parts, had been lost -- through those air raids, that is. The new output of these parts could not possibly keep pace with the destruction. There was only one way left, namely, to take these parts from troop stocks. The troops had large stocks which the GL himself had no power of disposal over whatsoever. He just gave the orders for the manufacture of them. The requests of the troops in my opinion were always too high. Four point two billions worth of parts were being ordered at that time. That goes to show you clearly my part. If we wanted to have these planes which were half ready in time, then it was possible only if the troops would give us small single parts. Prior to this conference many tests to that effect had been made.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2502, "page_number": "", "date": "17 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-17", "text": "We had tried several times. However, the Quartermaster general on the basis of the vote of 2004 a his Chief Quartermasters and Chief Engineers, had refused my wishes; in other words, he had not complied with them.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2503, "page_number": "2005", "date": "17 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-17", "text": "I was very indignant about that. Saur came to see me and stressed once more that the output of planes or their completion was impossible. He thought that the army would have taken care of this long ago. However, in the Luftwaffe there does not seem to be a definite power of giving orders, and he would have certain discussions with reference to this matter with the higherups. That, for the second time, annoyed me, and when this conference took place immediately after these things, I used very strong words. I was harsh with the purpose of seeing to it that the Quartermastergeneral with his staff would give me the parts that were needed. That was the purpose and the aim of the whole thing and in contradiction with what I mentioned before -- namely that they had refused me these parts, the harsh military speech I held there was crowned with success.\nQ.Witness, in this speech there are certain passage which in themselves have nothing to do with those aims you just mentioned. I would like to show you these passages. At one spot you come to the question concerning human beings, and you say that the part of the Luftwaffe with reference to labor assignments had been assigning foreigners, that the foreigners were running away and not keeping their contracts, and that if a foreman reprimands or beats one of these young laborers who is doing sabotage, he, the foreman, gets into trouble, and that the international right could not be used here and that you would see to it yourself that the prisoners, with the exception of the Americans and British, would be removed from the power of the military organization and then, with inference to a man who does sabotage, that he ought to be hanged in his own factory or workshop. What does that have to do with these aims that you mentioned?\nA.As far as the prisoners of war were concerned, as far as they were working with the Luftwaffe itself, the Quartermaster general and the Chief Quartermaster had something to with it.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2504, "page_number": "", "date": "17 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-17", "text": "This was to be a threat to that department namely, that certain rights would be withdrawn from their jurisdiction. Of course, I could not do that. I don't believe.\n2005a that Goering would have complied or followed this suggestion of mine if I had made one.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2505, "page_number": "2006", "date": "17 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-17", "text": "I have no excuse whatsoever for these words which I used, although I did have excuses for other passages. Now I have had the time to read this passage in peace, and I could not understand myself. I can only repeat that I myself was in a complete desperate position. I could see what was coming, and I could no longer help my people. At that time -- I do not wish to say this as an excuse, but just in order to explain something -- I was under the impression of my accident that I could not quite heal my concussion, because at that time I could not possibly leave my office for one minute. I knew that, therefore, my doctor was worried about me, and he tried to help me with all sorts of drugs and medicines.\nQ.Witness, a number of witnesses who were here have stated that very often you used such expressions of indignation, that you had outbursts of rage. At that time when you made that statement, did you have the sincere wish to get through with these measures?\nA.No; I can say that with a good consciance. Never, never in my life did I do such a thing, and I believe that he who really knows me knows exactly that, on the contrary, I was different. However, at that time I simply had to use strong words, and could not use strong words on the people I wanted to use them on. That you could not do because of the discipline which you have in an army. I also have to say that immediately after such a discussion I myself did no longer know what I had said during one of those outbursts of rage. Even today I could not say for sure that I said that. However, I cannot deny it.\nQ.Witness, did you at that time use such wild expressions with reference to these Luftwaffe gentlemen, and did you threaten them as well?\nA.Yes, I did. I read right now that I did so. I am very sorry even today that I used such strong words against my comrads.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2506, "page_number": "", "date": "17 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-17", "text": "Q.Later on you heard a different passage to the effect that the people who acted as if they were sick ought to be sent to work or whipped 2006a to work and that the whip should be used as a medicine.", "speakers": [ "Q." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2507, "page_number": "2007", "date": "17 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-17", "text": "That is a similar statement?\nA.That was just silly talk, so to speak, and I also used strong words on myself and called myself an idiot once in a while.\nQ.Did you ever issue orders to send people to work with the whip?\nA.Never, and I am sure that I myself would have intervened in such a case.\nQ.Did you ever have anybody hanged because of sabotage at any time?\nA.No. Number 1, I did not do it. Number 2, I could not do it. I never had anybody punished for sabotage in any way because that was not within my field of tasks, not even in these single instances where actual sabotage had taken place.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2508, "page_number": "2008", "date": "17 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-17", "text": "Q.Witness, weren't you afraid, however, that such words that you used before this circle of men, that those people would actually act according to your words?\nA.In this circle there was nobody who could possibly have the power to carry out my statements, and secondly, I believe that everybody knew me, because my friends already at that time had told me that I had lost my control over myself, and that it was very good that quite a few people did not take me seriously, for hardly anybody took me serious ly. Then I also promised myself that I would not burst into rage again. However, at that time I did not have full control over myself because the situation was becoming more serious everyday now, and also the knowledge that all this could have been avoided, it would never have been necessary to wage a war, and if so that the war could have been terminated long ago, and that apart from all this that if nothing else the destruction of - Germany could have been avoided. That the thought did not leave me alone day or night, and that actually contributed to these explosions. When everything was over, from that day I became more quiet.\nQ.Witness, those people you spoke to were soldiers, right?\nA.Yes.\nQ.Those soldiers, according to your knowledge, could they possibly have been led to carry out these orders which were against the international law?\nA.No, never. What they thought and said show that. They were right, that people thought I was crazy during such outbursts. I myself was in no position to judge that, however.\nQ.Witness, however, a certain number of measures in contradiction to international rights were carried out in Germany. Did you know anything about that, couldn't you have thought then that \"maybe I am also causing such measures against international right?\"", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2509, "page_number": "2009", "date": "17 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-17", "text": "A.No, I did not know that, with the very few exceptions that were discussed here. However, I never brought them into direct connection with myself, and there was no connection whatsoever at any time.\nQ.That is sufficient, Witness. Witness, I shall come now to the Fuehrer conferences which have been submitted in this book, that is Exhibit No. 48.D, from document No.R-124. At one point it says, namely at the conference of the 6th and 7th of April, 1944, that the Fuehrer demands the transfer or does not think the transfer of French workers into Alsace possible, and you will remember that during Jaegerstab sessions you had proposed that these French laborers be put into barracks. Would you make a statement to that?\nA.May I ask you for the date of that conference?\nQ.Just a moment, it was on the 6th and 7th of April, 1944.\nA.The question was that an engine factory from near Munich which had been bombed out there was to be transferred to the tunnel in Markirch. Markirch, as far as I knew, is between Baden and Alsace, but never on Alsace territory. The workers who were to be assigned there, as far as I knew, were Russians, and these in charge of them were Frenchmen. Now, according to what I knew Hitler was to have given an order that Frenchmen could not be used in Alsace. These two hundred Frenchmen, however, had already worked together with the Russians for a long time, and they knew them therefore, and they know their whole sphere of tasks. In other words, it was useless to put those workers there without their supervision, or rather their technical supervision. I tried, by making use of my words, to bypass Hitler's orders somehow. I know, however, that there were a few people in this conference who, with reference to my contradicting Hitler's order, would have reported that to Hitler immediately.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2510, "page_number": "2010", "date": "17 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-17", "text": "In other words, I had to be very careful of the words I chose. My only aim at that time was to help this industry factory, to the effect that it could resume its manufacture, and that was only possible with the French supervisory forces. All those words with reference to putting them in barracks, etc., were only to induce Hitler to cease his resistance, that they were not to be put in barracks practically speaking, and that it was intended either there can be seen from the local conditions there. I hope thus to be able to get Hitler's permission.\nQ.You also proposed that these people not be damaged somehow, or that they should be compensated by additional bonuses, and to put this on a friendly basis?\nA.As far as I know these two hundred people were people of high quality. In other words, there were masters or controllers or engineers, foremen. They had come voluntarily, and even at that time they were entirely on our side, and I myself was far from mistreating these people, but all we would have to do was arrange with them how to do or take care of the whole thing in such a manner that Hitler would not interfere.\nQ.Witness, Thinks. That is sufficient. Witness, then I have the Hitler conference of the third to the fifth of June, 1944 I wish to discuss here. It is also documentR-124Exhibit 48-D. First of all a different question, during those Fuehrer conferences, were you always present there?\nA.Those are the Speer records?\nQ.Yes.\nA.No. During all those years of war I have seen Hitler nine times altogether during which time Speer was there, and Speer was there once, a week. May I ask you again for the date?\nQ.That was the third to the fifth of June, 1944.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2511, "page_number": "2011", "date": "17 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-17", "text": "DR. BERGOLD: That is on Page 82, your Honors.\nA. A.I was not at Hitler's at all then.\nQ.Witness, did Speer show you or give you the full contents of the records which he had drawn up himself?\nA.No, he only gave me an extract then when the extract was of importance for the G.L., but that happened very seldom.\nQ.Witness, during this conference in which you were not present, Speer on Cipher 22 pointed Hitler's attention to the fact that each month from the entire economy thirty to forty thousand workers or prisoners of war escaped and have been caught again by the police and were recaptured, then that these people were then put to work in the interests as concentration camp prisoners. Did he ever speak to you about this matter, namely that these escapees were recaptured by the police and then used as concentration camp prisoners?\nA.No, I did not know of that and I an most surprised at the great amount, of the large figures that can be seen. We never heard such figures.\nQ.Witness, I shall come then to the two last records of the Control Planning Board which the Prosecution has introduced, namely the 55th and the 56th meetings, the board meetings. The question is of the iron quotas and the others of the construction plans or projects. You said at one point, namely during the first conference, the 55th conference, the G.B. construction, 100,000 tons are allotted to them. Was that for the Jaegerstab?\nA.No, I take it for all its construction plans or projects, because this 55th meeting came before the 55th, and in the 56th meeting the construction quotas are discussed again. However, the steel question had already been taken care of before.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "A. A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2512, "page_number": "2012", "date": "17 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-17", "text": "Then the entire quota, that was the entire quota that they received for a whole year.\nQ.Then there is also the question that the planning office is given power to build up a forrous reserve for repairs of steel, and to give 30,000 tons to the Jaegerstab. Those 30,000 tons, were these meant for construction purposes or what were they meant for?\nA.No, that could not be for construction, because as you said yourself, the question was of iron weights. I remember, however, this conference. The question was that Speer had a special quota for his navy armament, a special quota of stool, and the same applied to the Luftwaffe, for the G.L. Sauer then demanded that he was not to go the round about way of asking for the whole supply over the G.L. in order to be able to receive steel, but he wanted to have a certain amount over which he could have the power of disposal, which he could distribute at a given moment, and that could be understood. The G.L. did not have the steel at its disposal. After all, we did not have such great amounts of steel. Just like Sauer, he needed them. Therefore, we went to see the Central Planning Board as representatives of the Luftwaffe, and we asked for this quota.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2513, "page_number": "2013", "date": "17 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-17", "text": "Q.That's sufficient, witness. Now, as we have discussed the last documents of the Central Planning Board, I already mentioned the other thing before, about the 55 million construction quotas. I would like to ask you, in conclusion, to say how many sessions, according to your opinion, of the Central planning Board had anything to do with the labor question? There were 60 meetings altogether.\nA.According to the record, as I was able to see at the trials, from the 60 meetings 11 of them discussed the labor question. Nine out of those 11 meetings, exclusively, discussed the increase of coke production, in order to produce more steel. The 10th meeting back here also discussed or touched that point, however, discussed the labor question more explicitly, that is the 53rd meeting, during which we finally wanted Sauckel's representative to speak. Then the 54th meeting, in which only Sauckel discussed, namely, only laborers, at a special report of Sauckel's for justification was with one single aim. Sauckel at last has to confess that he could not bring those laborers or workers promised. And I don't believe I have to mention all the rest because I mentioned that before, on Friday. We wanted to know the reason for not preparing Hitler's requests, and we continued to make them obvious.\nQ.Witness, after the Central planning Board had something to do with the labor question, don't you think that many meetings concerned would have probably taken place then?\nA.I believe that then daily meetings would have been necessary for such a task, and if, for instance, the Jaegerstab had daily meetings for its production, and that the number of workers who were discussed at all these meetings with the exception of all those statistical discussions of the 54th meeting, was only a fraction, generally speaking, of all labor figures, namely, only what we needed, in order to reach steel production through coal production. All the questions concerning armament there were not discussed. There were greater questions of greater importance on special fields, for instance, than this question.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2514, "page_number": "", "date": "17 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-17", "text": "If you ask me now what it was all about, I'd say now that the question was of 30 million workers 2013 a who were employed here in Germany, than, oh, the number was probably a hundred thousand workers, if it is ever discussed.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2515, "page_number": "2014", "date": "17 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-17", "text": "And, frorm these proportions of figures you can see very clearly that in the Central Planning Board, generally speaking, they did not discuss labor assignment questions.\nQ.Thank you, witness, Now, witness, I shall come to these single records of the Jaegerstab meetings. First of all, toNOKW-337, all the documents which I mentioned before are part of Exhibit 75. This document I have just mentioned now refers to the session of the 6th March 1944, which is on page 133, Your Honors.\nThey are speaking here, witness, of construction companies, namely, three construction companies of the Luftwaffe. What was to happen with these construction companies?\nA.At the time being I cannot tell you by heart. All I know is that construction companies of the Luftwaffe were German soldiers, of all the age groups.\nQ.You speak later on of three construction companies; that you could possibly make ten out of three construction companies if you could possibly bring in 70 percent of foreign laborers. What do you mean by these foreign laborers or foreign people?\nA.I take it that they are civilians and not soldiers. They are just transfers for the construction industry before the Jaegerstab had taken place. In other words, repair work was being done to buildings destroyed by bombing. At the time, as far as I can remember, approximately one million of construction workers - German construction workers - were here.\nQ.In other words, you mean German workers who were called?\nA.Yes. At that time there was a certain change in that field for the benefit of the Jaegerstab. With Stoppeldettnetzen, for instance. We had arranged it with him.\nQ.Witness, during the same meeting they spoke of these famous 64 miners. Can you tell anything to this Tribunal about it?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2516, "page_number": "2015", "date": "17 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-17", "text": "A.Miners are people who are to build tunnels, and these people were being occupied with the Fuehrer Construction Works in Berchtesgaden. They were Germans because foreigners were not allowed to work in Berchtesgaden. I applied for it that these laborers be put at our disposal because I thought it important to be able to build out the caves which we already had at the time with the help of these men. This had been ordered and I thought it rather useful that these people were there instead of working in Berchtesgaden. I could not imagine anything, inasfar as air raid shelters were concerned, for Berchtesgaden, that is, there were hundreds, rather thousands of different points that were in danger. That was refused by Hitler personally, and he proposed we should have 10,000 people trained as miners with the SS, namely Germans. I thought the whole thing was said in order to put me in a ridiculous position. After all, where were we to get 10,000 people who were free for that kind of work, and, apart from that, what were we to do with 10,000 miners? After all, we did not want to go from pole to pole for grinding a hole right through the earth. That is all I know about these 64 miners. I wanted to show with my statement that the orders were always given, indeed. However, if one asked for help which one did not have, for execution of these orders, then one was laughed at.\nQ.Witness, these miners - were they Germans or concentration camp inmates, or were they foreign laborers?\nA.I must repeat that they could only be Germans. Namely, because foreigners were not allowed to work in Berchtesgaden in the first place, and in the second place, I don't believe that our policemen would have been so stupid as to give these concentration camp inmates high explosives into their hands, because high explosives are of great importance for the miners, that is where the name is derived from; that is the chief tool for a miner, and high explosives cannot be supervised in such a way that one or the other takes along a little bit, and if he does, nobody could find out.\nQ.Witness, at one point you say that you would ask the SS to send you more miners from Italy and Czechoslovakia. Were those foreigners?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2517, "page_number": "2016", "date": "17 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-17", "text": "A.No. These people were people from the Waffen SS. They were building there for the German army in Italy. There they were building certain forts, defense positions and shelters. I had been told that they were there. I hadn't seen them myself and no one came from there, but that's just like it used to be in all similar cases. It was just a proposal which we made, because, somehow, we wanted to carry out the orders given us.\nQ.Thank you. Witness, do you know that the SS had a miners' school or a school for miners, which was training some personnel?\nA.Yes, I understood that during that conference with Hitler and, if I remember correctly, Hitler reproached the Wehrmacht, that they did not have these miners. However, in reality it was nothing else but a pioneer's school. And all other Wehrmacht branches also had such pioneer schools.\nQ.Only members of the SS were used there?\nA.Yes, it was just a purely military school.\nQ.Witness, in that session Saur proposes one thing, namely, to turn over to Stalags, these prisoners of war of the SS in order to get a stronger hold on the Italians. Did the Jaegerstab do anything in that respect?\nA.No. I may stress here the point that the Jaegerstab itself, by itself, could do nothing whatsoever. The Jaegerstab itself could not even apply for a typist. If the Jaegerstab needed a typist, it had to apply for a girl at the R.L.M. or at the Speer ministry.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The Tribunal will recess until 1:30.\nTHE MARSHAL:The Tribunal is in recess until 1330 this afternoon.", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "Q.", "A.", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2518, "page_number": "2017", "date": "17 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-17", "text": "AFTERNOON SESSION \"The hearing reconvened at 1330 hours, 17 March 1947.\"\nTHE MARSHAL:All persons in the courtroom will please take their seats.\nTribunal Number 2 is again in session.\nERHARD MILCH-Resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued) BY DR. BERGOLD:\nQWitness, in DocumentNOKW-337, which we just submitted and in which we have talked of the miners, there is a passage--excuse me--no, that is a mistake.\nIn the DocumentNOKW-338, which again is Exhibit 75 I now come to the Jaegerstab conference of March 17. In this document reference is made to concentration camp inmates, and it is a conversation between Saur and Stobbe Detleffsen. For instance, Stobbe-Detleffsen says, \"Requests are made to me for German labor,\" and it is said here, \"You have five thousand concentration camp inmates; give me a thousand German workers.\" did you have any knowledge of the fact that such barter business between concentration camp inmates and German workers was carried out?\nANo.\nQCan you remember at all that this matter had been discussed in the Jaegerstab?\nANo, I have no memory of that because this was not in my field of task.\nQIs it correct that these Jaegerstab conferences were very often dissolved into individual conferences?\nAYes, very often.\nQHow did that occur? Would you please explain it to us in detail how this came about in a general way?", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2519, "page_number": "", "date": "17 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-17", "text": "A During the first conferences, these took place in the Reich Air Ministry. Later on when daily attacks--when attacks during the day accumulated also on Berlin, Saur suggested that the conferences be moved to Tempelhof 2017- A because there was a big air raid shelter.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2520, "page_number": "", "date": "17 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-17", "text": "The Reich Air Ministry had no air raid shelter. That was the location.\nIn Tempelhof I almost never took part in the conferences. That was only very exceptional. Otherwise, during the first period they were in our medium hall, conference hall, and the gentlemen who were then ordered to come to these meetings; for instance, I ordered them, I summoned the gentlemen from the Air Ministry who were to take part, where as Saur summoned those for the Speer Ministry. These gentlemen held a common conference in which in general, though only production questions were dealt with, which after all now were already discussed in the Jaegerstab and had been shifted over to the Speer Ministry, if now, for instance the question--what factory is to be moved into what subterranean construction,--this question now was being dealt with, then it was not discussed with all but only at another instance the gentlemen who were concerned with this question. All these larger planning questions for mass production were discussed in such individual conferences.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Witness, will you tell us please with what Ministry Stobbe-Detleffsen was connected?\nTHE WITNESS:He came from the Speer Ministry. There he had a division for constructions.\nQ Witness, but if these minutes are a continuous report and if they were individual questions, were these minutes collected as general minutes or how did this occur?\nAEither the reporters came along to these individual conferences entered these conferences also in the minutes of the meeting, or else it simply entered into the minutes because there only was one report for every meeting, even if the meeting took place in several locations.\n2018-A", "speakers": [ "THE WITNESS", "A", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2521, "page_number": "", "date": "17 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-17", "text": "QThat means that there were no separate minutes for these individual conferences, but they were parts of the general minutes?\nAYes, that is my recollection.\n2018-B", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2522, "page_number": "2019", "date": "17 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-17", "text": "QWitness, I now pass on to the minutes,NOKW-346of the 20th of March. There Saur tells you, \"As far as Hungary is concerned, I should be greatful if the Field Marshall would call up Mr. Sauckel and tell him that the whole group mobilized in Hungary should be primarily at the disposal of the Jaegerstab. Large Schanz-Columns\"--which means heavy labor companies, literally columns of ditch diggers-- \"must be formed. The people have to be treated like the prisoners, criminal prisoners; otherwise they will not work.\" The witness Vorwald has already testified in this regard, but I ask you to give the Tribunal an answer yourself with regard to the question whether you granted this demand and whether you took steps with Sauckel.", "speakers": [ "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2523, "page_number": "2020", "date": "17 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-17", "text": "A.At this day, Saur had summoned the German Engineers Association and the German Association of Electricians. He had summoned them to attend this meeting in order to get support in a general way from these circles. And I assumed that he wanted to boast a little bit--as we call it--and he wanted to show that he was giving, issuing directives to me, the Field Marshal; that I had no idea of executing these demands, and I have not taken any steps and have not discussed the matter, neither with Sauckel nor with anybody else, because, after all, that was no task for me, in any way. I had nothing to do whatsoever with construction questions. That is sufficient.\nQ.Witness, in this same meeting, Saur speaks of 54,000 Czechoslovakians. There were 17,000 for Czechoslovakia, itself; 31,000 for the Reich. Would you tell us, witness; do you know anything about those Czech workers?\nA.No.\nQ.I now pass to youNOKW 388. There, you see; and this is the conference of 28 March 1944. Here a certain Mr. Nobel is speaking, and he says that the labor assignment situation in the repair sector is unsatisfactory. Of the 2,000 people promised -- not one has yet arrived. And you answer: \"Tell Schmelter that if I can help in any way by calling Sauckel, etc, he should let me know.\" Later on, Schmelter came and no further discussion was made with regard to that matter. But how did that occur? What kind of people were they? Were they German workers -these repair workers who are experts -- or what kind of workers were they?\nA.I could not tell you that in detail, but I assume that there might have been some of each kind. I don't know where these workers came from or to come from, but, in itself, we had in our repair sectors more Germans than in the new construction because this work after all is much more difficult. It is much more difficult. It is much more difficult than to produce spare parts for a new plane. Repair factories which I knew had German staff. But, here again, I could not call Sauckel because I never called Sauckel over the telephone at all; but I had offered it here because at an earlier stage already it had been said that Speer's people had difficulties with Sauckel and that they never took the chance of calling Sauckel over the telephone any more.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2524, "page_number": "", "date": "17 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-17", "text": "Q.Now, in this conference there are other discussions concerning labor questions, and, more precisely, the question that Sauckel did not fulfill the demands in spite of the fact that he had reported very large figures. Could the same be said with regard to this as what you have said concerning the Central Planning Board?\nA.Yes.\nQ.You speak of taking the servants away from the housewives--that means 800,000 servants-\nA.Germans...\nQ.Yes; Germans. And here you have to fight for 2,000 men.\nA.Yes.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:Do you say those domestic servants were Germans?\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes, in Germany there were much larger proportion of young girls in the households as far as I know than is the case in the United States. In Germany, every household of upper-middle class people had house servants. That amounts to an enormous figure--and they are always Germans.\nTHE WITNESS:May I say one thing? There were already also, a certain number of Ukrainians, but this figure is in addition to the 800,000 German workers. But I wanted to have workers from these Germans because other documents show that I always fought against the tendency which was in accordance with Hitler's orders, according to which German women were not to be used as laborers, as far as possible.\n2021 -A Hitler quoted biological reasons for that tendency but I didn't recognize these reasons because we were engaged in a battle for life or death of our nation, and, therefore, I considered it right that out of these German house servants our small figures should be covered.", "speakers": [ "THE WITNESS", "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "JUDGE MUSMANNO" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2525, "page_number": "", "date": "17 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-17", "text": "BY DR. BERGOLD:\n2021-B", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2526, "page_number": "", "date": "17 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-17", "text": "Q.Witness, during the same conference you speak of a \"robbing action\" which had to be carried out because legal means could no longer be used... Would that mean that you were going to shanghai foreign workers--or how do you account for the words \"robbing action?\"\nA.It should have been the contrary to the word \"legal\". That means we were willing to try to circumvene the German conscription, and towards other German authorities we wanted to violate these prescriptions. But we never succeeded in doing so, either, because, unfortunately, we were unable to do so.\nQ.Witness, during the same conference, reference is made to the fact that you wanted to protect the fighter factories from having to surrender labor, and that, therefore, you wanted to write a letter to Keitel of the OKW, and a letter to Mr. Sauckel. Why did you propose that?\nA.From the fighter factories, soldiers were continuing to be drafted into the German Wehrmacht. We only heard of that later on, after the fact. And, therefore, I tried to succeed, in obtaining that the drafting from the fighter factories was to be informed first of all--was to be told us in the fighter staff, in order to enable us to raise a protest. And, therefore, the name Keitel OKW and Sauckel, of course, had to know that, because he, after all, was supposed to send reserves and replacements into these factories. But the old method was used; the Armed Forces only notified the factories of the drafting, and we didn't even hear of it at all. And we were suddenly quite astonished to see that the production was decreasing. And when we asked the factory then, they just told us: Well, they have drafted so-and-so many soldiers from our factory. We have lost again so-and-so 2022-A many of our skilled workers.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2527, "page_number": "", "date": "17 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-17", "text": "Q.That is sufficient, witness. In the document NOKW 365, a certain Mr. Lange says: Schmelter's man complains especially that they have now no chance to make severe demands on Sauckel which would be carried out. Saur then asked you that it would be best if you, yourself, went to Sauckel as the man in charge of labor recruitment, and you said 2022-B to him,\" I shall tell him that the 10,000 red tickets have not been covered.\"", "speakers": [ "Q." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2528, "page_number": "2023", "date": "17 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-17", "text": "Did you actually ask Sauckel or tell Sauckel?\nA.No, I did not tell him. After the meeting I told the man that he should do so himself because Saur's demands, after all, went much further. And I answered that I only wanted to tell him something about the red tickets, but, after all, that was not a question I had to deal with.\nQ.Witness -\nA.Furthermore, I want to say that might have meant, also, I would tell him. That means, if I were in your place I would--and not \"I will.\" This kind of mistake happens very often on every page of the minutes because I never had the intention to speak with Sauckel, myself because, after all, that would have served no purpose whatsoever. And especially, if there were no witnesses while I talked with him.\nQ.Witness, I now pass toNOKW 334. This document deals with the assignment of French forces -- we already talked of that matter; but it deals also with the assignment of prisoners of war -- near Braunschweig, and there you say the famous sentence: \"I also think it is a very good thing that POW's should be sent there if Braunschweig is always attacked.\" What does this sentence mean?\nA.In this conference there was a representative of the high command of the Luftwaffe. Before the meeting I had succeeded--and this was quite some work for me--in obtaining that we would get a barracks for our workers on airfields which, according to my statements, was about 15 kilometers or 20 kilometers out of Braunschweig. And in these barracks there were the fighters. Home fighters were placed in these barracks. When, finally, I succeeded in getting the barracks for ourselves, the home authorities who were in charge of these fighters made difficulties. I had received my permission from the General Staff but the Air Fleet, the Home Air Fleet, said, No; and the representative had declared that the fighters should remain there, and had to remain there. I said, I have to get that factory; I need it for the purposes of the fighter staff.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2529, "page_number": "2024", "date": "17 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-17", "text": "And on that they said, already in one of the preliminary conferences: \"What do you want there at all? After all, the factory won't be standing very long anyhow. It is much better if you shift the workers and the production somewhere else right away.\"", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2530, "page_number": "2025", "date": "17 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-17", "text": "But we had no place anywhere else. Then I said, \"Even if the attacks are there, it is much better if these people get there and are sent there because in this factory they are mainly old people and women, and if we send young people there, they can also help when the plances are around, when it's burning, and they can also have the clearing work,\" because the women were not very good for that kind of work and also the old men couldn't give much help. But the danger was not great there. It's quite obvious exactly from the fact that the Air Fleet Reichs, the Home Air Fleet, had sent home fighters there. The factories at Braunschweig were in the city, right near the city, and these places which were far out were not attacked. But if they should have been attacked, then these people could have helped.\nI wanted to bring forward the argument and refute the argument of the Home Air Fleet which was trying to get these barracks away from us.\nQ.Thank you. Witness, I now pass on toNOKW-389, which is the conference of the 2nd of May. There an incident in the earlier work is referred to, during which POW's had started a large-scale mutiny. Did you have any knowledge of this mutiny?\nA.Yes, I had received a so-called special report on that matter before the conference, that is - and the whole matter was so unique and so different from anything that had happened before that I hardly believed the contents. I did not really believe the contents and I wanted to wait on what the definite report would be.\nQ.Witness, Kammler said on that occasion that he had thirty people hanged in special treatment. Was the fighter staff in any way connected with that matter, or in what capacity had Kammler hanged these people?\nA.There was no connection whatsoever with the fighter staff anyway, but I assume that it was some occurrence in the framework of the SS at some time. I don't know Kammler very well, but it might even have been just a tale he gave us in order to influence the others - in order to boast. I couldn't tell what it was.\nQ.Witness, I now pass to Document LO-390. This is the matter with the Italians, and there also we have a connection with the Document NOKW 442.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2531, "page_number": "2026", "date": "17 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-17", "text": "Will you first of all answer the question, what kind of Italians were involved here? Were they civilian workers or were they PW's?\nA.These were the so-called Imis, who were interned soldiers. On the strength of an agreement with the Mussolini government, they were the Italians who had declared themselves in favor of the Badoglio government. On that Mussolini had them captured, and he stressed the point that they should, if possible, work with us.\nQ.In *** connection with the transport of these people, you said that you are of the opinion that shooting should take place if somebody tries to escape from the train. How did you come to this opinion?\nA.Well, we had received a report that the first transport or whatever it was had been dissolved by itself because the people had just left the trains, and it was quite legal in case of escape that the surveying power should use their arms. I understand by that if an attempt to escape cannot be prevented by any other means, then they should be entitled to shoot but not if the people had already been recaptured. But, as I have proved, that is quite the same for all other powers, also.\nQ.But did you issue an order in this connection?\nA.No, that wasn't my task. We had nothing to do with the transport of these people.\nEXAMINATION BY THE PRESIDENT:\nQ.Your statement would only be true if they were prisoners of war, would it not?\nA.Yes, they were prisoners of war.\nQ.You don't mean that people who were coming voluntarily be agreement with their own country to work in Germany could be shot if they changed their minds and tried to go back, or do you mean that?\nA.I may explain this then briefly. This was just one occurrence. In Italy there was an opposition against the Mussolini government and a revolt against that government. Now, one part of the Italian groups declared themselves in favor of Mussolini, and another part declared themselves against him.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2532, "page_number": "2027", "date": "17 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-17", "text": "Mussolini captured that part which had declared themselves against him with the help of Germany, and they were declared prisoners of war. These people now were prisoners of war of the German-Italian alliance, and Mussolini placed these people at the disposal of Germany as prisoners of war. He wanted to get them out of Italy because after all they were not secure enough in Italy, and he handed them over to Hitler for work purposes, and now these Italian PW's were to be transported to Germany, and that is how it came to this conference.\nQ.Then we have the strange situation of Italian nationals being prisoners of war of Italy?\nA.Yes, that was the situation. There was a mutual question. That is, the Bodoglio people also captured the Mussolini partisans. After all the nation didn't know where to go, and there were partisans for one as well as for the other.\nQ.Did anyone who was a partisan and who was captured become a prisoner of war of the other faction?\nA.Yes. They even did the following. The officers were asked whether they declared themselves for Mussolini or for Badoglio. I know of one of them, a good friend of mine. He was for a long time the Italian air attache in Berlin. This man declared himself for Badoglio, and as a consequence he was/interned and became a PW. He then remained in Italy as a prisoner of war, as an officer prisoner of war. Other officers, again, declared themselves pro Mussolini. If they were in the northern part of the country, that is, behind our front lines, then they were sent to the Graziani army, which continued to fight with the Germans. But if the man was behind the other front line, that is, behind the allied front line, then he became a prisoner of war there, if he declared so. Of course, I can't know whether he declared himself for Badoglio.\nQ.The same situation was true in France, wasn't it?\nA.In France there was a slightly different situation.\nQ.Yes, but generally the same situation was true in France?\nA.Yes, to a certain extent, at least. The difference was that as long as France was in the fight, that is, until the armistice, the France nation was united in the battle against Germany, but then later when the armistice was concluded and was broke later on by a part of the French, then another part remained on our side, and there we had similar conditions as in Italy.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2533, "page_number": "2028", "date": "17 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-17", "text": "BY DR. BERGOLD:\nQ.Witness, in other words, these Italians were not civilian workers who had volunteered to come to Germany and work.\nA.No, if they had come to Germany as volunteers, after all they wouldn't have run away.\nQ.I now pass on toNOKW-361. This is the conference of the private staff of the 9th of May, 1944, and this concerns a journey from the 8th to the 10th of May. Witness, can you remember that journey?\nA.Yes.\nQ.In this passage reference is made to the assignment of concentration camp inmates in the mining industry. Did you attend this conference?\nA.These were only part conferences. As far as I remember, that was in Bruck at the Mur. In that case I did not attend any of the conferences with the exception of the speech I made at the beginning where I gave directives to the competent local authorities, and I gave them a report on the situation. I stressed the importance of the fighter production. At the end there were always a few words of thanks for the good reception. All other conferences were only part conferences which had been detached, but besides that I don't remember what you just said now.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2534, "page_number": "2029", "date": "17 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-17", "text": "QI now pass ontoNOKW 349, this is the conference of 23 May, which probably deals also with the employment of Jews for the large air raid shelters.\nAMay I ask for that again?\nQOn 23 May, I just want to ask you whether you were attending these conferences?\nANo, I was not in Berlin at that time. No, not at all. I was at Obersalzberg with Goering.\nQI now pass toNOKW 336, which is the conference on 26 May. Witness, did you attend this conference?\nAYes. Yes, and for that time I was there together with Speer. I think that was the first time that day when he attended any Fighter Staff meeting. But I did not attend the whole of the meeting, but together with Speer, so far as I remember, I left the meeting before it ended.\nQHere again reference is made to the Hungarian Jews, and \"Schlempp's report that what Dorsch told me, and Speer answered: \"We have often made such calculations but people never came.\" What do you know of that matter?\nAThat is possible in spite of the fact I don't remember it.\nQWitness, then suddenly reference is made, and that is on page 80 of the original, reference is made of the fact that you asked \"How long did Italian prisoners of war worked there.\" Will you tell me where did this conference of 26 May 1944, where did that conference take place?\nAThis conference exceptionally took place in the ReichAir Ministry, because Speer came to the conference, and Speer had told us it would be too far for him to go to the Templehof.\nQJust a minute, witness, that is sufficient. Witness, will you tell us how it came then you say, \"How long did the Italian Prisonners of war work there.\" Did you see the Italian prisoners of war work in Berlin?\nANo, but I saw them walk around in the afternoon, and there were large numbers of them.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2535, "page_number": "2030", "date": "17 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-17", "text": "QWere they accompanied, or were they guarded?\nAYes, if you can call that a guard, because there were fivehundred Italians, and they were with an old territorial soldier. They went where they wanted, and in whatever manner they wanted.\nQBut that is quite peculiar. First of all they have to report either at the Italian plant with a very heavily armed guard, and now they walk around in Berlin?\nAYes, and they did so at the time when everybody else was still working. After all the practice was different from the theory.\nQI now pass toNOKW 350, and this is the eighth journey of the Budapest enterprise. Do you know where this journey went? Could you tell us about it?\nAYes, that was the very first to attend, the 3rd of July.\nQOh, yes.\nAThis journey went to Budapest, June, and on the 2nd June in the morning we arrived at Budapest. The report of the matter, as I recall from my notes show it was a matter to discuss with the government Horty who was the Prime Minister at that time, and his Deputy Imredy, to conclude a state agreement with them concerning a joint firther production in Hungary, on which occasion Hungary had to service planes which were already in making. There were caves, there were wine caves of large volumes, and were fivehundred fighters amongst them that were to be produced, and a large part of which were to be delivered to Germany, while Germany was to send reconnaissance planes and bombers to Hungary, and also ach-ach batteries with ammunition. This was a matter or public production barter.\nQWitness, but did this journey ever serve the purpose of bringing Hungarian Jews to Germany?\nANo, there was no word at all about that. That was not our task at all because -\nQGo on.\nAThat is all.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2536, "page_number": "2031", "date": "17 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-17", "text": "QWitness, during one of these conferences, you made reference to the fact that \"No Frenchman will work after the invasion had started, and I am of the opinion that the French should be forced to come over into Germany, and should be forced to come over as prisonners.\" How did you come to make such a statement?\nAFirst of all, I don't know whether the words are quite correct that was as they are put in these minutes, but in the case of French prisonners of war which were to leave conditionally were to be brought over before the invasion started, in order to prevent them from fighting against us over there, but rather to make them turn into the status of prisonners of war.\nQThen this you speak of having machine engines in France, and you said everything is to be brought over into Germany, also the engines. Are those French engines, or were those engines which had been transported there from Germany to France?\nAThese were engines, that they had sent over to France because of the fact all the French worked for us in the productive factories, and they produced instruments for us, and they had no machinery for the production of those engines, and, therefore, we had to send our tools and instruments and also the engines, because we could not do anything with French engines.\nQThank you. Witness, did you attend the conference of June 7, 1944, which comes underNOKW 348?\nAThat was of June?\nQYes?\nANo, at least I did not put it down. May I ask what it dealt with?\nQYou are not listed in the stenographic report, but there was a teletype machine?\nAIf there was a teletype machine, no, in that instance I did not attend.\nQI now refer toNOKW 358, the fighter staff conference of 30 June. Did you attend that conference, that is, June, that is this second one?\nANo.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2537, "page_number": "2032", "date": "17 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-17", "text": "QAnd another document I come to,NOKW 335, Fighter Staff conference of 31 July, did you attend that conference?\nAYes, indeed. Just a minute. 31st, yes.\nQ 31st.\nAYes, that was the final conference, wasn't it? No, on the 31st I did not attend, I made a mistake then. I attended the conference on the 1st of August.\nQI just want to make a brief reference, and I want you to answer the question I just put to you now. Did the Fighter Staff have the authority, and did the Fighter Staff reduce the authority in the field or task of Sauckel, or didn't it?\nANo, it did not reduce the authority, and it did not reduce the authority of any other ministry either, or of any other government agency.\nQNow did Sauer distribute workers to the factories?\nASo far as I know or I think, no, because of the fact -- it is true, that Speer had the authority to shift workers within his factories, but that only could be even done by Sauckel. I might answer, after all, the GL did not have that authority.\nQWitness, I now close this chapter, this chapter on the Fighter Staff, and I now pass onto the question of medical experiments. In 1932 was the Health Inspectorate directly under your authority?\nANo.\nQUnder whose authority was that?\nAIt was under the authority of the Chief ofAir Defense.\nQAnd who was the Chief of Air Defense?\nAAt that time that was still the General Ruedle, but then in 1942 was replaced by General Foerster.\nQAnd who was the medical inspector?\nAThat was the General Oberstabsarzt Hippke.\nQWitness, in this trial you have heard often enough of these medical experiments. Did you in 1944 have any connection, or any concern at all with these medical experiments?", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2538, "page_number": "2033", "date": "17 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-17", "text": "ANo.\nQDid you never have any report from Hippke, or from Mr. Ruff, or Rascher, or by Himmler, and have a proposal made by them that the air force should participate in human experiments at Dachau?\nANo.\nQWitness, have you any knowledge of letters which were exchanged between Rascher and Himmler, or letters between Rascher and Brandt of 1941 concerning these medical experiments? Did you receive knowledge of these letters?\nANot before this trial.\nQWitness, on the first report on high altitude experiments, on April 5, 1942, did you receive knowledge of this report which Rascher sent to Himmler, and was it submitted to you?\nANo, so far as I know this report never came to the ReichAir Ministry.\nQWitness, the request made by Wolf to Hippke, 16 April 1942, according to which Rascher's assignment should be prolonged, was this letter made known to you?\nANo.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2539, "page_number": "2034", "date": "17 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-17", "text": "QThe same day there was a second report, also of 16 April, a second report made by Rascher concerning the high altitude experiments. Was this report submitted to you?\nANo.\nQDid Hippke make a report to you of the fact that on 27 April he had written to Mr. Wolf and reported to him that he had prolonged Rascher's assignment?\nANo.\nQDid you have any knowledge of the third report made by Rascher and sent to Himmler concerning high altitude experiments of 1 May 1942? Was it submitted you?\nANo.\nQI now pass to the letter of 20 May 1942, which is Exhibit No. 87. That is your letter to Mr. Wolf concerning the remaining, or rather, the withdrawal of the high altitude chamber and the beginning of experiments concerning sea rescue questions. I submit this to you and ask you to explain your position with regard to it.\nAMay I have the original?\nQIn that case, I shall have to ask the Secretary General to have Exhibit 87 brought into the courtroom.\nAIn that case, I would also ask that my letter to Himmler of 31 August be brought.\nQIn that case, I ask also that Exhibit 115 be brought in the courtroom.\nAAnd perhaps also Exhibit 89, if I may suggest it, because that is my letter of 4 June to Hippke.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Let's make sure we have these numbers. How many exhibits do you want, now?\nDR. BERGOLD:Three. Exhibits 87, 115 and 89.", "speakers": [ "A", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2540, "page_number": "2035", "date": "17 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-17", "text": "BY DR. BERGOLD:\nQ.But perhaps for the time being you can explain your position with regard to this letter.\nA.Reference is made here to a telegram which Wolf is said to have sent to me on the 12th. I can not remember that telegram was sent to me. Maybe I can ask whether this telegram is in evidence.\nQ.This telegram is not in evidence, witness.\nA.May I say that if a telegram is sent on the 12th, then it will be received on the 12th or, at the latest, on the 13th. From the 10th to the 13th, inclusive, I was not in Berlin. Even if it had been sent to my address, the telegram would have been sent on automatically by my office. They would not have waited until I was there.\nQ.But where would they have forwarded it to?\nA.They would have forwarded it to the Medical Inspectorate. Even if I had been there, such a telegram or such a letter would always have been forwarded by my office to the competent authority. My reply is dated May 20. I have not dictated this letter, and I would like to prove that from the original Hippke has testified that he had submitted corresponding evidence to my office and he wanted to talk with me but I was not there. I quite understand that also because if I look at my notes, on that day there was a very important commemoration for armament workers, and there were a lot of important speeches from important person, from the V I P's, except from Hitler. Goering had something to do with it, and Speer. That day I came to my office only in the evening for a few minutes, because there was subsequently a joint dinner together with the workers.\nOn the 21st, which was the next day, I had been summoned to Goering's house at Karinhall in the early morning, and I did not return to Berlin, and I went to Rostock, where I had to be the whole day the following day. Therefore, I had not the possibility to go to my office for more than a few minutes before dinner and I just had to glance through the letters I received and the letters which were to be sent out.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2541, "page_number": "2036", "date": "17 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-17", "text": "Because I had absolute confidence in the Medical Inspector, I want to point out that the remark of my old ante-room man, according to which I did not like Mr. Hippke, is not correct. Richter right have gained that impression from the fact that I always raised both hands when Hippke came and wanted to report to me, because he always asked for half an hour, but if I did not get very energetic, I could not get rid of his in less than three hours. I could not quite reconcile that with the time I had available, but as far as his character and capacity were concerned, I had entire confidence. If he had submitted such a document to me, I never had any doubts in signing it, because I know that this man would never submit anything to me which could have the slightest doubt of bad treatment or a bad action. Today, as at that time, I am still firmly convinced of that.\nWe also discussed humane questions, and, therefore, since 1935 when on 1 April he became Medical Inspector, I know this man quite well from that moment forward.\nI may add also that, as far as medical questions are concerned, I had no indirect or direct subordination. I never had any connection with these medical questions. I was not his superior in medical questions, and General Ruedl or General Foerster were not his superiors in these questions either, but, rather, all the medical questions were, of course, in the end decided at the highest military level. He was only organizationally attached to us, because, after all, the highest medical general had to be subordinated somewhere.\nQI now hand you the photostat of your letter, and I ask you to use this photostat in order to establish whether you dictated this letter or whether you did not.\nANo, I did not dictate this letter.All letters which I dictated myself have under my name the letters \"M.I.\" then a dash, and the first two letters of the secretary who took the dictation. That means that this letter was dictated by somebody else and submitted to me for signature.\nQWitness, how does it occur that in this letter you use such a confidential form of address as \"my dear Wolfie\"?", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2542, "page_number": "2037", "date": "17 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-17", "text": "AMay I refer to the testimony of Wolf in this regard? This address was quite correct. I liked this young officer very much, because he always placed himself at our disposal in all questions which we had to discuss with regard to Himmler. He also always tried to do what we wished him to do. I was very happy that this possibility of liasion was existing, because, of course, I had much less contact with Himmler himself.\nQBut if you say now that you did not dictate this letter yourself, how can another subordinate agency use such a confidential address? This subordinate agency does not know your relations with Wolf.\nAYes, but my ante-room knew my relations with Wolf, and there they always asked, \"How does the Field Marshal address this or that man; how does he sign below the letter --'Regards', etc.?\" And when I was supposed to have written this letter, they even asked me to give them my letter paper, and I think Mr. Richter quite clearly and unmistakeably expressed that.\nQWitness, did anybody in connection with this letter of 20 May 1942 report to you in order to make you sign this letter?\nANo, I can only assume from the time-table I have that, I did that very quickly before I left again, that I just signed it. Certainly I had not read it. I was not obliged to read every letter which I signed. Otherwise, I would have been a mere signing machine. Most days there were hundreds of signatures to be done, and, of course, I looked who sent the letter. Not every dispatching office was in my confidence, but Hippke was, and what he submitted, or what General Foerster submitted to me, or General Vorwald, I did not have to read that. That was okay. If I had read it, from the knowledge I had at that time, I could only have gathered that experiments were taking place concerning high altitude, that these experiments were terminated, and that, on the contrary now, other kinds of experiments concerning questions of sea rescue were of primary importance.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2543, "page_number": "2038", "date": "17 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-17", "text": "To the best of my ability I couldn't have imagined anything and I couldn't have seen what the doctors meant by that, but as I knew that there were instances of sea rescue, I, of course, would have been very glad of the attention of the medical inspectorate given to air rescue questions and questions of acute importance. I cannot remember either that I ever saw the name of Oberstabsarzt Weltz, Stabsarzt Rascher.\nQ.Witness, from where did you know that this letter, which does not bear any notice of the instant which produced it, that this letter came from Hippke's bureau, Hippke's office?\nA.A little note was attached and on this note was written, \"Hippke requires the following notice be sent\", or something of that sort.\nQ.Was that customary in your office?\nA.If a letter came from some other office, it was customary.\nQ.Do you yourself have any knowledge about medicine?\nA.No.\nQ.Did you get anybody's counsel with regard to medical questions, anybody's advice?\nA.It is quite obvious that when Hippke came to report I asked him questions, I asked him whether our soldiers of the airforce had been vaccinated, all of them, and what kind of innoculations they could receive, and so on. Of course, I had asked whether there were sufficient hospitals everywhere, everything from the viewpoint of organization work, but you couldn't call that medical questions, but rather medical organizational questions.\nQ.Very well, Witness, I now submit to you Exhibit No. 89 and ask you to give me by book back. I ask you to explain your position with regard to that document. Did you draft this letter yourself?\nA.No. Here again my personal initial is lacking, and I also see that I said \"Dear Herr Hippke\". I would never have addressed him that way if I had given a small note like that. I usually wrote, \"My dear Hippke\". Our personal relation was such that we wouldn't use the word \"Herr\" (mister), if I may say \"we\". In this connection this is of the 4th of June, then I was in the ministry.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2544, "page_number": "2039", "date": "17 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-17", "text": "I also see from the manner in which it is written in a general way that I have not dictated this letter. In these cases I wouldn't write in my own house to these gentlemen and sign it by \"Heil Hitler\". It is true that these kind of greetings were prescribed, but we didn't use it in our own offices, above all not to the people which we had confidence in, and I would never have written, in accordance with the agreement the low pressure chamber is this, and furthermore this and this is this. After all there must have been a report here and as no report was submitted, or telegram or letter, most probably it would have been a telephone call, but in that case I would have written, \"My dear Hippke, Mr. Wolf called me up. He wanted to keep the low pressure chamber for so and so mush longer, and he wants to keep Dr. Rascher for so and so much longer. What is your position with regard to that? Please answer directly to these people. Yours, M., or Mi.\"\nQ.According to your opinion who wrote this note?\nA.Some one of ay adjutants who probably took this telephone call, which I assume, and from the word in accordance with the agreement with the Reichsfuehrer this and this and this. I assume that the other instance which has called up, and I should think either ti was Wolf or as he says himself some other instances which used, his name. This instance probably alleged that it was an agreement between the Reichsfuehrer SS and the Luftwaffe. It is most probable that was a lie because of the fact that Wolf was stated here as the others. That is quite obvious from the fact that this letter was sent to Wolf in a copy that way, copy of this letter was sent to Wolf, because Wolf has testified here that he has no knowledge of this matter and that at that tine he was not at all with Himmler. In any event this here, the note, is not an order issued by the man who wrote it. It is not in the way of \"I order that this or that be done\", but rather it is the passing on of a request which is made by a third party.\nQ.Witness, did you receive any knowledge of the fact that Hippke had a talk with Rascher in June 1942, that is, did Hippke make a report to you in that matter?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2545, "page_number": "2040", "date": "17 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-17", "text": "A.No.\nQ.The 25th of August 1942, in a letter which Himmler sent to you there is the final report concerning the high altitude experiment. Did you read yourself this final report and did you receive it before it vent to Hippke?\nA.No. It was customary that if a letter was submitted to me which had such contents of experts, medicine, that such a letter wasn't even submitted to me, but only the letter which was attached to it, but very often even the letter which was attached was not submitted to me.\nQ.Where were you during these days, witness?\nA.That is after the 25th of August, isn't it? On the 25th I was in Berlin there. It could not have been received yet. On the 26th I was in Berlin, but I hardly vent to the ministry that day because it was the funeral for a friend of nine who had a fatal accident, that is Mr. Gablenz, and I was together with his family because many a thing had to be settled on that day. On the 27th I was in Berlin in the ministry; on the 28th also. I presume that the letter should have been received about these days, the 27th or 28th.\nQ.Did you then give orders that was passed on to Hippke?\nA.No. I am also firmly convinced that this letter was not submitted to me because it was customary and normal that in my anteroom such letters were passed on to the agency right away, and, that by themselves they very often wrote to it, \"Report to the Field Marshall\", or \"Submission of the answer\", or even they didn't write anything at all, and the competent expert was left to settle the matter. Of course, I don't know how it was in this particular case.\nTHE MARSHAL:This Tribunal is in recess fifteen minutes.\n(A recess was taken.)", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2546, "page_number": "2041", "date": "17 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-17", "text": "THE MARSHAL:Tribunal Lumber 2 is again in session.\nQ.Witness, we shall come now to your answer to Himmler; namely the acknowledgment of receipt which you sent to Himmler. May I ask you to make a statement about that? How hid you happen to write this letter?\nA.On the 31st of August 1942, shortly before noon, Hippke came to see we in my office, and he brought along a letter which was to be sent to Himmler and which was to be signed by me. Hippo then, for the first time, told me about the whole question and at was also the first time then that I heard anything about the whole question of the experiments.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:What was that date, Dr. Bergold?\nDR. BERGOLD:On the 31st of August, your Honor, 1942.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:Very well.\nA. (Con'd) From that letter of the 20th of May I knew nothing whatsoever, although I had signed the letter, and on the question of the 4th of June I could not possibly imagine what it was all about no matter how hard I tried. This conference took place a little bit later in the afternoon because I had been all morning long in the Reich Economy Ministry during which time Minister Funk had had a conference. At noon I had to leave because I had am appointment with the widow of my friend Gablenz; it concerned his will. There was not too much time at our disposal, and I asked. Hippke to make it as short as possible. Hippke began to tell me all about it, and he said something about these experiments. I asked him, \"What interest does the SS have with respect to these experiments?\" Hippke said, \"Well, it does not concern them too much actually. However, it is Himmler's vanity. He wants to be able to tell the Fuehrer once again that he is doing everything and in this particular case the doctors of the Luftwaffe are not very able to carry it out because they are a little bit too old fashioned\", as he put it.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE MARSHAL", "JUDGE MUSMANNO" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2547, "page_number": "2042", "date": "17 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-17", "text": "Then I asked him what kind of experiments are these. Hippke answered, \"They are high altitude experiments and freezing experiments. Undercooling is freezing experiments.\" I asked him, \"What is under-cooling?\" \"Freezing.\" From the question, it can be clearly soon that up to this time I had no idea about the whole latter and. what it could be. Thereupon, Hippke explained it to mo namely, on the basis of our pilots and. other personnel who wore being shot down during their flights from Germany to England over the North Sea. And that those pilots who are in the water in their 'Mae Wests' and he also said that rescue usually took a long time. Hippke, furthermore, explained that the high altitude experiments had been completed. However, the other thing was probably quite far, also, but that he had no report whatsoever on that matter. He did not like this cooperation with the SS.\nI told him, \"Are such experiments necessary at all?\" He answered, \"Yes they are, namely, seen from the medical point of .vice.\" I asked him then, \"What kind of doubts do you. have about it, about the SS-misgivings? Are they substantiated?\" Hippke said, \"No; however the SS is not an expert with reference to our question.\" And then, of course, we have the channels of orders are not too clear either. We have not too much right of word with the SS. And, after all, these experiments are our own business. Or that sometimes the Navy could be interested in this. And now the SS wanted to carry out those highaltitude experiments without our help. However, I did not return them to the low-pressure chamber, and I do not wish to return them unless you order me to. I told him that I never thought of giving him such an order because it is purely a medical question, and if you have any misgivings; for instance, that Himmler would be intrigued because of this or against us, with Hitler, then, of course, we don't want to support these people on top of everything else.\nHippke, himself, added, \"Apart from that, nothing good happened during these altitude experiments.\" I personally, would not have asked such a question. Hippke then Trent into detail, namely, that we had already carried out all the experiments -- we, of the Luftwaffe-and.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2548, "page_number": "", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "on top of this all our medical officers had volunteered for this kind of work; while in these SS experiments criminal 2042a and murders who had been sentenced to death were being used-- if they volunteered.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2549, "page_number": "2043", "date": "17 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-17", "text": "That pardon is at their disposal if they volunteer for that kind of work. Put, at that time, I did not quite understand why these experiments were still being carried out, that we had already taken care of all ourselves, namely, the Luftwaffe. However, the question in this particular case was the higher altitude for which the medical research was interested or in which the medical research was interested ... I thought at that same time of the fact that Hippke had mentioned the necessity that one had to have parachutes which, during the unconsciousness of the man who jumped, would automatically open. Then, a road the letter which he submitted to me; and, as far as I can remember, it contained many pages. And I told. him, \"The less letters you have, then the less Himmler can interpelate or intervene in all these questions. And, as you and your people do not wish to have anything to do about that matter with Himmler, we only want to give him small possibilities to do so.\" And. I believe that I struck out two or two and a half pages of the letter, and all that remained were the first few sentences and the last few sentences.\nMay I ask you to show me the letter--an original if possible?\nQ.Unfortunately, I have not been able to do that, but the Exhibit No. 115 refers to something else. But I believe that you will be able to do without it; we don't have to bother the Secretary-General about it.\nA.I only wanted to show that I did not dictate that letter. The letter has been re-written by some other office, however submitted to me as Hippke's letter.\nQ.That we can see from Hippke's statement.\nA.I saw him at the time, and I saw that there was no signature whatsoever by me. In other words, this is just my thanks to Himmler for Ms letter. The names, Rascher and Romberg, which I hoar are the instigators of the letter--I can not remember anything about them. I never noticed the names of Rascher and. Romberg until the end. of the war, consciously. Then it says here, I am informed about the current experiments.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2550, "page_number": "", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "That is what it said in Hippke's report, and I must refer to many witnesses who have said that in 2043a the German ministerial style in which the letters are written, this \"I\"--the letter \"I\" is absolutely normal, even if the man who signed it does not mean himself.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2551, "page_number": "2044", "date": "17 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-17", "text": "By saying \"I\", \"I\" in this case or in similar cases, refers to the ministry as such. It also said, \"Very soon I shall ask these two gentlemen to make a report before my gentlemen of my office-- with or by us-and showing a film.\" I can not remember this statement or massage, either. I did not write it myself. That I just state there as paragraph 1. Then, later on, I added the following words, \"Hoping to be able to sec you during my next visit at your headquarters, I remain, yours as ever, etc., with kind regards...\" because the last signature had been signed in a different manner by Hippke. And with this friendly gesture, namely, that I will go and visit him, I \"wanted to tame Himmler's nervousness, shall we say by saying that I will come myself, meaning that we will then be able to discuss everything. We don't have to write here much more than that because the way it says, that is, in the first paragraph, was not very polite or could be regarded as impolite by Himmler if one knew him and his susceptibility.\nQWitness, why do you say you had taken knowledge of the report?\nAHippke -- ho was the one who had taken knowledge of the report, and when he had taken knowledge, the Minister or his deputy writes, \"I took knowledge.\"\nQWitness -\nAIf, for instance, the Ministerial Director of the Ministry takes a trio and visits a factory, then the minister writes, \"I, during my trio to the factory so-and-so, I found out the following\" --not he was there but one of his higher ranking people in his ministry. However, that is the German ministerial style which was being used and has been used since, particularly with the old ministries.\nQWitness, then later on did you discuss the matter with Himmler?", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2552, "page_number": "", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "ANo, after this particular incident, as far as I can remember, I never heard anything at all about this. As for the showing of the film I knew nothing about it. That I was the one who wrote the distributer for sending all these reports in, one of those young doctors testified here in 2044A Court.", "speakers": [ "A" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2553, "page_number": "2045", "date": "17 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-17", "text": "That would have been the same as if the King of Siam would have been forced to wipe his own room and keen it clean, because I never had to do with such questions of the ministry. And I would have told them my opinion if they would have asked me to such a thing.\nQWitness, didn't you discuss the matter with Wolf?\nAOnly to the effect, namely, that when Wolf told me everything worked out fine, and the Luftwaffe certainly is glad about it, and satisfied, and that above all, everything is all right between you and Himmler now. And I told him, \"Yes, indeed,\" I had to think it over twice before I could answer. He meant, I know, where it was, though. It was on the seventh of September, 1943 namely in the Fuehrer's headquarters in *inniza, where I, while leaving my quarters there, my billets-- we had our own billets there, namely, the Guest House-no, it was 1942. I am sorry; I made a. mistake-- on the seventh of September.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2554, "page_number": "2046", "date": "17 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-17", "text": "That was at the time when I went to see Hitler about armament questions or, rather, I had been ordered to see him there. I met Wolf there; and I believe that he walked those fifty or seventy maters with me up to the Fuehrer's Villa, if you want to put it that way. We wanted to discuss things for a little while. However, when I got there, I was called in immediately because Speer was already there with Hitler. That is why I could not discuss things in detail with Wolf. That is the only thing I still can remember; that is, that once, without mentioning the word experiment, we had spoken about the troubles of the relationships between Himmler and myself and the gentlemen in my office. I deduced from that Himmler then felt better about me.\nQ.You say, Witness, that you were not present on the 11th of September when they showed the film?\nA.No.\nQDidn't you actually ask for the showing of the film?\nA.No, I knew nothing about it. Had I known that then, of course I would have invited Mr. Hippke as Number 1 guest; and I can see from here on this document that he was not present.\nQ.Where were you on the 11th of September?\nA.On the 11th of September I was not in Berlin at all; I was in Rechlin. I had not been in Berlin the night before either; and then I was in Neuruppin where I met Speer later on. On the 12th of September I came back to Berlin. What has been stated is also wrong-that I had seen Goering on the 11th of September and had been ordered there for an oral report. I did not see Goering on the 11th of September, 1942, but the first oral report I made was on the 13th of September with Goering.\nQ.Witness, did you discuss the question of the experiments with Goering?\nA.Yes.\nQ.Concerning these Dachau experiments?\nA.No, I only explained to him--yes, with reference to the Dachau experiments. However, I didn't tell him anything about Dachau because I was not too clear myself as to where these experiments were being carried out; and I only told him that Himmler, I believe, had written in his letter that he wishes me to inform the Reichsmarshal as well, that is, Goering.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2555, "page_number": "", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "I was worried for fear if 2046A Himmler should address the Reichsmarshal and perhaps ask him that orders should be issued that this low pressure chamber be out at his disposal again, that Goering then would be able to order it.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2556, "page_number": "2047", "date": "17 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-17", "text": "Having a knowledge of the whole matter, I had to prevent this.\nTherefore, during this long oral report I told Goering towards the end, \"As far as this is concerned, Himmler asked me to inform you of the fact that the SS carried out experiments for us and the SS, and of course, wants to be praised for it.\" I expressed the minister's thanks to him \"The medical inspector was not very glad about the experiments. He did tell me that everything was all right. Nothing had happened, however, if he docs not want to continue them because after all Hitler's impression would be that we were not able to carry out such things. Apart from that, Hippke would like to keep the chamber because he needs it himself, the chamber meaning the low pressure chamber; and he did not want to put it at anybody's disposal anymore. It is possible that Himmler will ask you questions as to that.\"\nGoering answered me: \"Very well, I am cf your opinion. We'll take care of our things ourselves; and Hippke can keep his low pressure chamber.\" That's how Goering, who had known nothing about this question before the whole matter was taken care of, reacted.\nQ.Witness, did you ever hear anything about the freezing reports?\nA.After these things I neither received a report from the medical inspectorate nor from any other agency. The only thing which I forget to mention is that Hippke on the 31st of August said with reference to this whole freezing business, \"Nothing will be of benefit to us: and so far I think that the means which our grandmothers gave us were good enough.\" They had only found out that there were interesting things which had come out during these experiments, mainly from the scientific point of view.\nQ.Witness, were you at the Nurnberg conference on the 26th and 27th of October?\nA.No; and I would like to know from you what I was to do there. It was purely a session or meeting for special doctors. There were many more important sessions and meetings of a military kind which I did not attend in my position as inspector general; and after all you should not forgot what tasks I had.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2557, "page_number": "", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "I was not, after all, a corporal.\n2047A", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2558, "page_number": "2048", "date": "17 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-17", "text": "Q.Witness, do you remember the letter of Wolf of the 27th of November, 1942?\nA.No; and I think it impossible that the letter went to me; that it came to me directly and personally. I believe this because of the date of the 29th of November. From the 1st and the 5th of December I was not at the Reichs aviation Ministry. On the 30th I had been there for a very short time; and all I dealt with was with the trip from the 1st to the 5th of December to Rome. I had very important conferences there with reference to coming production with the Italians; and I also had special orders to discuss there with reference to Rommel, who had just come back from Africa. So that the letter of the 27th of November which was at Berlin either on the 28th or the 29th at the latest was automatically sent to Hippke due to my absence there.\nQ. fitness, Hippke testified in this court that ho had only received this letter from you in February.\nA.Yes, well, in any case the letter was not with mo until that date. Who kept it I do not know. Some office probably kept it or mislaid it. That was not possible with me. I had no records in my ministry; I had: no files. table was always clean when I left the office in the evening. There never was one single sheet of paper that remained on the desk. In other words, if there was anything the ante-room would have taken care of that anyway; and as I said before I was not there when the letter was supposed to have come and. I don't care if my ante-room, namely, the files which we have there, or Mr. Hippke's office is responsible for this.\nQ.Witness, did you receive a letter from Himmler around the same time?\nA.No. I saw the records here for the first time; and Himmler's letter, which came as a draft without a date and which was included in the letter drawn up by that notorious Mr. Rascher, who had sent it to Himmler,--this letter seems to have been sent on to Wolf to be answered and to be sent on.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2559, "page_number": "", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "Wolf, with reference to this draft by Rascher, actually used everything verbatim, with the exception of those religious questions which Mr. Rascher had interpolated. He left those out because Wolf know\" us officers bettor and he knew definitely that we did not like funny jokes about religion. Wolf guessed right; and he left that out.\n2048a", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2560, "page_number": "2049", "date": "17 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-17", "text": "Q.Thank you. Witness, with the exception of Mr. Rascher, did you also know Mr. Ruff and. Mr. Romberg?\nA.I mot Ruff once before the war due to the fact that I had given a special flyer's prize to him and. to a few other young fliers. He was a very good pilot, and. ho distinguished himself by carrying on selfexperiments. That, according to my recollection, is the only time that I ever saw him and spoke to him. As for the other man, Romberg, I never knew him before these trials, and I never saw him. Also, I never heard his name.\nQ.Witness, in the time that followed, did. you ever find out that Rascher was to be transferred to the SS?\nA.No, I know nothing about it.\nQ.Did you over do anything about this matter?\nA.No. And. I may add. to this also, such inferior questions wore not under my jurisdiction and. did. not belong to my sphere of tasks.\nQ.Witness, couldn't one say that because the medical inspectorate was indirectly under your orders that you should have dealt with this whole question a little bit closer?\nA.As I was not in charge of these medical questions, I had nothing to do with it. I may add. one thing, that Hippke came to see no with reference to the fact that I mentioned. The fact that Hippke came to see mo with this letter goes to show that he was not on good, terms with the SS and that therefore he came to see mo in order to get help from me by having me sign for him.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2561, "page_number": "2050", "date": "17 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-17", "text": "On the other hand, however, I was convinced that the SS had not written to me because the SS did not know our competent agencies, and that the officers did not know the competent officers or agencies of the SS. I knew nothing about their organizations and branches, and apart from that Himmler if he ever wrote anything, or said something, he only addressed himself to Goering, or maybe sometimes to me. To Himmler I was just a small man. However, Hippke did not exist at all for him.\nQWitness, did you at any time give orders about medical experiments, or of any other kind, fur Rechlin, or for technical things -\nANo.\nQ (continuing -- or medical things?\nANo, never. That the Benzinger who has been mentioned hero repeatedly was actually unknown to me. However, Rechlin for me amounted to a material for me of ninety-nine percent research. I never saw at all what Benzinger had figured himself, and I never visited his factory which he was supposed to have out there. I made out one thing in reference to low pressure chambers, it was absolutely unknown to mo that we had a mobile pressure chamber, which had been at the disposal of the DVL. That was outside my interest, or anything about that matter.\nQWitness, how far were you interested in those high altitude experiments in question as GL?\nAWe were interested in the real altitude tests as 1 know it exactly, because I want to state this figure as 13,500 meters, and we added 500 meters in order to get a square figure. However, we knew that this last 500 meters which I had mentioned, we were not too interested in that. We were only interested in the first place in cabin planes, too, after a certain test had been carried out on 388-cabinsuit, whether it did not succeed or fail, because a person could not move properly the way those suits were, due to low pressure up there in the air is felt much more than here on the ground.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2562, "page_number": "2051", "date": "17 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-17", "text": "QWitness, were you in charge of the DVL?\nANo.\nQDid you have certain powers with reference to disciplinary powers in reference to the DVD?\nANo.\nQDid you assign the personnel of the DVL?\nANo. I know many things about the DVL, exactly, because up to 1933 my position as director of the German Lufthansa I was present, as already I was part of the Board of the DVL. It was an incorporated association, and had a certain board, which consisted of many industrialists, which at that tine consisted of Professor Junkers, Professor Dornier, Professor Heinkel, and Mr. Heinkel and several other gentlemen and myself. There was also somebody from the German School for Traffic. The money for the flying tests of the DVL carried out material tests for at least ninety-nine percent cane from the Transportation Ministry. That was the purchase. They bought service, and the German Association for Aviation delivered then research notarial, or results. That was the only connection which we had with then, namely, that they bought. However, a registered incorporated association is not in a subsidiary position for an organization in Germany. When I came to the Ministry later on as Secretary of State, I automatically moved out of the Board of DVL, because I represented the government, and that would have interfered with the freedom of the facts.\nQWitness, how was the research work, or how was it organized within the framework of DVL.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2563, "page_number": "2052", "date": "17 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-17", "text": "Was it under the RLM?\nA.When I took over my position as Chief CL, I started a chain organization, a basic chain organization. During that occasion I also created a special department called \"Research\" which was under the Ministrial Director Baeumker.\nQ.Baeumker?\nA.Baeumker, and I just dissolved that immediately because it was there without reason to exist. The Rt-H could not possibly give orders for research, neither for us nor for outer persons in Germany. A great number of research institutes were working, which most of them belonged to some university, or to Kaiser Wilhelm Institute, or to some other free organization. For instance, for the Luftwaffe over twenty such institutes worked, and then we had one of them, namely, one of the most important ones at Adlershof. During the conference of the Deputy of the Reichsmarshal for these questions, or with delegates, rather, I agreed to create a research committee of the Reichsmarshal, and these were not under the Reichsmarshal, but they wore free collaborators. This committee consisted of four persons, the president being Professor Prandtl in Goettingen, the most famous streamline expert in Germany, and also Professor Seewald from the technical high school in Aachen, and also Professor Georgii from the technical high school in Darmstadt. Then associated not to be a professor but as principal, Beeumker for the economical question of this research committee. The professors were not in a position, for instance, to give a special report. These things were too far from them. However, these people had to be compensated for cash expenditures, and Baeumker was one who was supposed to take care of that. Baeumker was not a scientist, nor was he a technician either. He was just a clerk, an administrative clerk.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2564, "page_number": "2053", "date": "17 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-17", "text": "Baeumker preferred then to take care of the research of the Jews into Bavaria, of which he took very good care of the administrative part.\nQWitness, just a minute here. This chart as it appears on the wall, is it right?\nAAs far as facts are concerned with Foerster, Foerster was under my orders, and Hippke was under the first order, that is correct. Everything else on this map is wrong. The lefthand side was all directed by Hippke. I don't know it very well, despite the fact I notice the organization at that time was entirely different; and that on. the right hand side, it is nothing but pure fancy without even showing a trace of correctness. I know the righthand side very wall, the people named there are entirely of different tasks, it had nothing to do with research work, and even up there, the way these \"brown\" offices are drawn up are certainly wrong.\nQWitness, Rascher referred to you as the third witness. Can we not draw a conclusion that you did know him?\nAI don't know him, and the first thing I over heard about that man, that was during my examination hero in Nuernberg in 1945. At that time I had asserted I did not know or met him, and did not know his name. Then much later I found out that he had been shot by the SS, namely, I found that out a very short while ago, and the only way I found out any thing about him and of his misdeeds was through those records here, and then I can remember very well that such a criminal of his vanity would have gladly played with my name, so to say, as names were not protected from such things in Germany.\nQThank you. That is enough. Were you in charge of the Sea-rescue service?\nANo. It was under the Quartermaster General.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2565, "page_number": "2054", "date": "17 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-17", "text": "QWitness, the last question on this. You heard Herr Becker-Freyseng testify here that Kalk on 11 September called you up by telephone, and asked you in reference to Rascher's film, and what was going on. What could you understand from this question of Kalk's asking you that; wasn't Kalk an expert, and asking you that question?", "speakers": [ "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2566, "page_number": "2055", "date": "17 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-17", "text": "A.It was on 11 September at about four o'clock. I saw from these records here that Kalk participated in the showing of the film. I can imagine -- this is an assumption though -- that he suddenly heard that the man who had a film was there. Later on he referred to him as the competent adjutant of Hippke and was convinced that this film came from Hippke. That is the only thing I can imagine in this whole connection Kalk was my personal physician. He was with me often. However, for the main thing, he was chief physician of two great hospitals in Berlin. Ho was a civilian doctor and only in officer of the reserve during the war.\nFurthermore, in the Medical Inspectorate ho was being used as a consulting internist with Hippke, and in that capacity he went on trips quite often. He was one of our most favored German internists, and he is an expert on all fields with reference to liver diseases and also others.\nQ.Thank you; that is enough.\nA.That is the reason I did not see him for weeks and weeks. When we were together, we never discussed medical questions. He was a very good pilot, however, and I always put one of my personal planes at his disposal. We discussed only things in connection with flying, in which he was vory deeply interested. However, he knew exactly want my opinion was of the general situation and of my attitude toward my superiors.\nQ.Thank you; that is enough. Witness, a very few concluding questions, I am afraid, however, that I shall not be able to get through today. Witness, can you tell me how often in the period 1939 to 1945 you went to see Hitler, Goering, Himmler, or any other SS leaders?\nA.Yes, I am in a. position to do so on the basis of the notes that I made daily. I shall give you just a general idea of the whole thing now. I drew up a plan for the years 1939 -- or rather, from 1939 no 1945, which was the time when I was captured. That is six and a half years, approximately at least.\nI went to see Hitler 48 times altogether; namely, in general discussion, that is, where other people were also present -- soldiers or officials, etc, 19 times; when I was Inspector General for the Air Forces, eight times;", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2567, "page_number": "2056", "date": "17 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-17", "text": "as Air Ordnance Master General 12 times; when I was in the Central Planning Board, nine times. It occurred often that I discussed two or three tasks at the same time. However, here I have only mentioned the main things.\nWith Goering I was there at the same time 153 times from 1935 until 1945 -- six and a half years. That is approximately 20 times a year. Also, in general discussion, namely, where other people wore present, 78 times; as Inspector General, 39 times; as GL, 35 times, and with reference to Central planning Board questions, once.\nI was with Himmler once in 1939, once in 1940, twice in 1941, namely, with reference to personnel questions. Then in 1942 I did not so him at all. In 1943 I saw him once when he was at Speer's, and once I discussed the general situation with him. That was the question of home defense. Then I met him in 1944 once at Hitler's headquarters. Altogether, this is seven times in those six and a half years.\nWith reference to all three of these personalities here, Hitler, Goering, and Himmler, I saw them more often than I have said, during official matters, receptions, etc., or during burials or during special banquets. However, I wrote down all these cases in which I had spoken with those men, whether personally or officially.\nWith reference to the other SS leaders, I met Wolf during the war three times, Heydrich, twice. Both times there were personnel questions regarding my proteges. Daluege, four times, of which three times occurred within a period of three days, one after the other. The question was that the police ham taken over the executive powers of the civilian air raid precautions, the alarm question and the order in air raid shelters, etc, which were before at the Air Ministry. However, it had. been turned over to the police in 1940. It was an agreement which Goering had reached with Himmler without asking us for our consent or advice.\nThen in 1943 I met Heydrich's successor, Kaltenbrunner, twice, and here, also, I noted personnel questions concerning the men in my Ministry. That is altogether four persons concerned, and I saw them only six -- twelve times in those six and a half years.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2568, "page_number": "2057", "date": "17 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-17", "text": "The reason was that I saw these people very seldom.\nQ.Witness, I shall come back now to your curriculum vitae. On what occasion was there a final breach between you and Goering?\nA.That is a question which is a little difficult to answer because the relationship was a continuous action. From 1937 on the relationship was sinking. In 1941 it looked a little bettor when I was ordered to take over the office of the GL. This lasted for a few months, and then it become worse. After Stalingrad it deteriorated much faster. Then shortly after the formation of the Jaegerstab I received evidence that my wish to withdraw from the Armament was also Goering's wish with reference to me, without his knowing my intentions. In March 1944 he asked Saur for all questions of the Luftwaffe, and not all the questions which were in direct connection with Saur, namely, production, but also questions of development. That facilitated my withdrawal on 20 June.\nI may add that Saur could not possibly change this if the Reich Marshal ordered him. He then had to carry it out.\nThen there were considerably difficulties with Goering in 1944, or rather, already in 1943. I forgot to say that. That was on the occasion when we showed our equipment in Insterburg, where I was treated in such a way that I could not help but excuse myself with Goering and took off immediately in my plane. A little while later he spoke to mo about it. Then we had several differences.\nThe reason with me was air defense or no air defense, and I had reproached him of being too soft toward Hitler and that, on the other hand, ho did not permit us to be harsher in our dealings with him. That for me was always the reason. It had. not boon in the personal field. We were strangers to each other. However, I did not mind it, and I did not wish to belong to the closer inner circle of Goering.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2569, "page_number": "2058", "date": "17 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-17", "text": "During the whole spring of 1944 there was considerable tension, and, of course, I did not act correctly at all times, and I was a little bit too harsh towards him.\nThen, on 18 April he called no to Obersalzberg. We had a discussion which lasted for two hours and in which on his only Bodenschatz took part. I was not to take anybody along. He started reproaching no. Then, as we happened to be alone, so to say, I answered the sane way. For instance, he asked me if it were true that I used frank words about him. I said, Yes, that that could be quite possible, and I wished ho would tell no more in detail what it was all about. He gave no a piece of paper on which he had many instances written down from those examples. I could see that my telephones were being monitored. That was the proof, and I reproached him for that. Then I told him that in reality I was harsher than I had actually said over the telephone, and I also told him ay opinion.\nTHE PRESIDENT:At that point, we will adjourn until tomorrow naming at 9:30.\nTHE MARSHAL:The Tribunal is recessed until 0930 hours tomorrow morning.\n(At 1630 hours, 17 March 1947 a recess was taken until 0930 hours, 18 March 1947.)", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2570, "page_number": "2059", "date": "18 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-18", "text": "Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America, against Erhard Milch, defendant, sitting at Nuernberg, Germany, on 18 March, 1947, 0930 hours, Justice Toms, Presiding.\nTHE MARSHAL:Persons in the courtroom will please find their seats. The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal No. II. The Military Tribunal is now in session. God save the United States of America, and this Honorable Tribunal.\nThere will be order in the courtroom.\nERHARD MILCH - Resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued) BY DR. BERGOLD:\nQ.Witness, yesterday the last question raised here was the conference of the 18th of April, 1944, during which your relation with Goering deteriorated in a decisive way. Will you please continue explaining to us this development?\nA.I rejected Goering's reproaches, and I even made my own reproaches to him, and especially I discussed the question that he did not sponsor the air defense in a sufficiently strong manner and that now he could already see the results. We also discussed the question that he, as the President of the Reich Chamber was responsible for the maintenance of the constitution. The discussion lasted for quite some time and I think that this was the final point in our relations.\nQ.Is it correct, or rather did you have any knowledge of the fact that at Pentecoto, 1944, even before you were officially to resign when at that time Goering handed over the whole air armament as a whole to Mr. Sauer.\nA.Yes, indeed. That was on the 29th of May, Whit Monday. Goering did not wish that I took part in this conference, and as he expressed it he handed over the whole of the air armament to Herr Sauer This was reported to me by my exports who attended this conference, but I consider that a quite nor mal stop in this whole chain of events.", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "A.", "Q." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2571, "page_number": "2060", "date": "18 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-18", "text": "Q.Witness, on the 20th of June, 1944, what happened then?\nA.At that particular day I had been summoned to Hitler, and Goering summoned me before the conference with Hitler, and ho told me that the armament was now as a whole and had to be under Speer's supervision as a whole, and that my resignation as G.L. was meant by this new development. He then went together with me to Hitler's. Speer also was present, and now Hitler issued the directive that Speer should take over also the whole of the air armament, and in his presence Goering reported that I, in my capacity as G.L. was resigning and also as Staatssekretaer, that in order not to create the impression of a dispute in public he asked me to continue to remain inspector general of the Luftwaffe.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2572, "page_number": "2061", "date": "18 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-18", "text": "Q.Witness, then, did you receive a new task with Speer himself?\nA.During his talks Hitler had mentioned the fact that I, after all, could help Speer, and that it was possible too that Speer had not quite recovered his health, because, after all, he had been ill for several months, and he asked me also to get a survey of the whole armament ministry. There is nothing more in detail which was mentioned with regard to this fact but Speer may have asked to keep this somehow loose connection with me because in some direction I had to be protected and I could not get this protection from Goering any longer.\nQ.In the framework of Speer's organization did you exert an actual task?\nA.No, because I had reached an agreement with Speer that I should not work in any capacity in his offices because Speer himself had recovered his health and in this proposal of Hitler's he only saw a pressure on himself because Hitler thus could say, \"If you don't do what I want you to do, then I'll have you replaced\", and that was not my intention at all.\nQ.Witness, when were you removed from your post as Inspector General then?\nA.That was during the first days of January 1945. The letter was dated as of the 7th of January. It was received at my offices on January 15. But there was no conference with Goering during all these months.\nQ.Witness, what knowledge did you receive of the fact whether, and in what manner, Hitler wanted to take action against you yourself?\nA.That was in ---. The 1st of October I had a severe accident, that is, in October 1944, and I was sick until spring of 1945. About this time Speer wanted to use me in order to have the railway station and railway installations which had been damaged by air raids, in order to have these installations repaired, whole life in Germany was paralyzed by these damages. There were no longer communications between the West and the center of the Reich, and the organization of the railways was not up to the task to have these damages repaired and removed. Thereupon, Speer asked Hitler whether he would agree that I take over these repairs.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2573, "page_number": "2062", "date": "18 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-18", "text": "Hitler then declared \"No\". He didn't want that. He would take an action against me. That was quite enough material. The post was Mr. Kaltenbrunner, that is, evidence against me, and Mr. Kaltenbrunner had reported to Hitler. Speer, as my friend, succeeded in getting the thing put off because he requested that he himself could look into the matter. Hitler agreed to that and it was found out, after a lot of hemming and hawing from the side of the Gestapo, that in reality there was no evidence at all against me. Speer reported that to Hitler and Hitler answered, \"I'm not interested in that. This man has to be removed.\" But now, in April 1945, when already at that period Berlin was being encircled, I left Berlin on the 26th in the early morning and then I never heard anything about it. There was no disciplinary action against me and a few days later I was captured.\nDR. BERGOLD:I have an objection against the translation. The word \"vanish\", \"disappear\", it has a double sense in German and that is the sense of having somebody removed, to do away with somebody, rather, make his disappear. The sense here was to have him killed by court action. In that I saw the answer.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:It's very confusing now. Who said this, and---?\nDR. BERGOLD:Hitler said this.\nA. (continuing) This was the answer to the 5th of March 1943, where during the night I had told him my opinion quite frankly.\nQ.Witness, why didn't you try to get out of the Hitler regime earlier, at an earlier moment?\nA.When for the first time I saw that this regime, this system, was not a lucky one for Germany, as I had supposed in the first years after 1933 - at that time we were already in the war - I was a soldier and I had fought for my country as a soldier. At that time I didn't think it anything criminal either, that Hitler's intention didn't seem criminal to me and the events in the beginning, after all, made it appear that he was right.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "JUDGE MUSMANNO" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2574, "page_number": "", "date": "18 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-18", "text": "His successes in Poland, in Norway, and also in France, strengthened 2062A his position very strongly with the German people and only after I heard that he was intending new to attack Russia, and to get Germany into a different war, then I thought that was a crime against the German people because such a war could only end with Germany's defeat.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2575, "page_number": "2063", "date": "18 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-18", "text": "Even for a soldier in Germany it was impossible to resign during the war. After all, he would never have gotten his discharge either. Hitler would only let go the people he wanted to get rid of himself, and after all, I didn't feel myself responsible only to Hitler, but first of all I felt responsible towards my people, and at that time I was still hoping to save at least the German home country from the destructions by air raids. This hope I maintained until the end of 1943. Then I lost this hope and then I started to think by which means I could get out of it. I could not resign. My demand to be used at the front was rejected. Thus I had only one way and that was the way to take over the part of the work which was now the most important and hand it over to Speer and therefore we created this Fighter Staff, and then my resignation, on the 20th of June, came about. There was no other possibility which I saw and during the two years I have been in prison now I often thought it over, what else I could have done, but up until today I have not found a way, which in that period of time and under that government could have given the responsibility to a field marshal to resign. After all, it was quite a miracle that even in this manner I succeeded in resigning. I think that most of the others didn't even have that opportunity.\nQ.Witness, just a minute ago you stated that in the beginning you did not think that what Hitler was doing was a crime. You explained to us, however, that you continuously made efforts to preserve the peace. Didn't you think that war was a crime, or did you think that Hitler's reasons for the war were pertinent?", "speakers": [ "Q." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2576, "page_number": "2064", "date": "18 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-18", "text": "A.I thought even until 1938, yes, until the spring of '39, I strongly believed that Hitler would try to prevent a war in any event. I considered him a bluffer, but however, a man who was clever enough to go on right until the end, and he was too clever to be brought into a bad situation.\nHowever, I observed the whole negotiations concerning the Polish Corrdier, and I considered that the same kind of bluff. Afterward I believed that Poland actually had made this attack on the Gleiwitz Radio Station and also the murdering of tens of thousands of Germans in Brombe and in the other locations. On seeing these conditions I did not consider it a crime that Germany should defend herself against these occurrences.\nQ.Witness, you explained to us that during the first period Hitler was a man who was quite accessible to reasonable advice. Later on, in his general nature and in his general countenance, did you see a change?\nA.Yes, the change--as I see it now from this moment -- occurred slowly after the annexation of Austria, after the Anschluss. Even the Sudetenland action already exceeded what the Hitler of prior days had considered right. Even stronger the change could be seen when Prague was occupied. During the war the great successes, according to my opinion, changed Hitler completely. Now he was no longer the man who could be influenced by others; he was quite self-confident. He would not brook any opposition and he lost more and more the confidence in his fellow workers, and especially concerning his generals. He considered himself quite a strategist and the successes, after all, were brought about by the military leaders themselves, but he considered that he himself had gained these successes. While, during the first years, he would never accept any flatteries, he was now very accessible to them.\nI know that even at the beginning of the war he accepted drugs, and I think he received an inoculation every day, and my doctor told me once that there was strychnine in those inoculations and also hormones, and this doctor, who was a specialist in his field, told me that cannot end well.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2577, "page_number": "2065", "date": "18 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-18", "text": "A man is changed by these shots, not only in his physical condition, but also in his mental capacity and morally. And he seemed to have deteriorated more and more as time went on and thus, Hitler, who now had been influenced by Stalingrad and had received a special shock, a shock where he actually separated -- at least as his inner feelings were concerned -- he separated from Goering, whom he had appointed his own deputy and his own successor, and from that moment on one could not get along with Hitler anymore. He became an autocrat more and more. Even the slightest objection was shouted down by him.\nThus, in about the year of 1943, and even stronger in 1944, and especially after the attempt on his life, he changed in a way that he was just the contrary of what he was before, and marched in the opposite direction. On one occasion he had written that a war could never be conducted so long that the actual substance of the people would be endangered. At such a moment the chief of the state tried to stop, whatever be the cost, because the substance of the people and the blood of the people was the only thing that was worth saving.\nUntil 1945 he kept up the lost war in spite of the fact that the substance and the blood of the people had been attacked in a very strong way for a long time already, and thus I could quote quite a number of examples concerning the complete change this man underwent. I did not consider him a normal human being any longer. He was not insane in the sense that one could say he was really insane, but he did not think straight any longer, and his logic was rather unclear.\nQ.Witness, a few days ago you told us that in March 1943, during a conference, you had proposed to Hitler to appoint a war cabinet -\nA.Yes.\nQ. -- and thus to end the dictatorship. Did you continue your efforts in this direction?\nA.Yes, ten days later I discussed the matter with Goering, but Goering rejected it in a very harsh manner, and he was not at all ready to head such a movement.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2578, "page_number": "2066", "date": "18 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-18", "text": "At that time there was nobody else in Germany, however, who would have had the right to head the movement, because at that time his relations with Hitler were all right, and they only deteriorated in the course of the year, and after all, he was the successor who had been appointed by the Reichstag. Then, on the 24th of October -\nQ.Of what year?\nA.That is 1943, I first approached two gentlemen who were especially near to Goering and who belonged to his close circle of collaborators; that is, the Chief of the General Staff, Korten, with whom I had quite close relations myself. Korten had been, prior to this for long years -- Korten had been my Chief of General Staff, and I also approached a personal friend of Goering's, the General Loerzer. I proposed to them that now there should be a change in the conduct of the German Reich, and in my eyes, as a soldier of course, this was to be done by adequate report and adequate pressure exerted on Hitler.\nI did not think of an attempt on Hitler's life at all, or anything of the kind. I reported it to Goering that the war was lost, that steps should have to be taken in order to bring about a peace now, and in contrast with March of the same year, there was no longer time to build up a defensive front on both sides and bring our troops into it, because there was no good defense position to conduct these negotiations.\nGoering actually went to Hitler with these proposals, and on the 28th of October, that is four days later, he ordered me to Karinhall, and his word showed clearly that Hitler had rejected his proposal in a very harsh manner. Now Goering reproached me very strongly by telling me that I had influenced him and given him these crazy ideas, and he would not think of letting himself be put into such a problem again.\nOn the 16th of November, 1943, I discussed once again with the adjutant of the Luftwaffe and went to Hitler with him; that is, he was Hitler's adjutant, and I had a personal confidence in him, and he had quite a good position with Hitler too, because he was an irreproachable man.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2579, "page_number": "2067", "date": "18 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-18", "text": "I discussed with this adjutant the questions, but already saw from this conference with the adjutant that there was no hope in this field.\nThen I gave up my efforts, and then from January onward I tried to get out of my positions.\nQ.Witness, after you received the Knight's Cross in 1940, did you receive any distinctions from Hitler, any decorations?\nA.Yes, I did, 1940 -- I received the promotion to a Field Marshal, and that was also in 1940. After 1940 I did not receive anything which I considered a distinction as a soldier, because the bonus I received in 1942, yes, I will refer to that later, I couldn't sec any distinction in that as a soldier.\nQ.Will you now talk of this bonus which you received? Give us some detail about it.\nA.Hitler sent his adjutant -- that was on my 50th birthday and the adjutant brought a picture of Hitler, that is, a photograph, with a dedication, and then he brought me a letter in which he congratulated me, and furthermore there was a check in the amount of 250,000 marks. Hitler wrote in his letter that he knew I was leading a very modest life and he would like to give me the possibility of leading a little bit happier life this way.\nI thanked Hitler, and I told him that I accepted the money, because after all, I could not reject it, as a compensation for the fact that I had earned a little less than this amount in my State position than I would have earned if I had remained with the Lufthansa, because my wages in the Lufthansa were twice as high, and even later on, three times as high as the money I got from the State, and therefore I did not consider that as exceeding my merits.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2580, "page_number": "2068", "date": "18 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-18", "text": "Q.Witness, did the Air Ministry not offer you a bonus, also?\nA.That was not a bonus but the president of the Air Ministry told me that the industry wanted to give me a present in the value of 50,000 marks, and I told him that I rejected this present. This, to me, looked like bribing. He immediately withdrew the offer, especially as he knew that never in my life had I accepted a present from the industry.\nQ.Witness, -\nA.That is, as long as I was in official position--in government position.\nQ.Witness, you spoke of bribery now, but was the Air Ministry under your supervision?\nA.No. It was not under my supervision; but, after all, they received orders from us. That is, we gave them orders to produce things for us, and during the first period as GL, I took quite a number of steps against individual officials or engineers who were in official positions with the GL because they had accepted presents from the industry, and I had all of them condemned for bribery. Therefore, my own way, the way I had to follow was quite clear to me.\nQ.Was it possible for you to remove directors of industry, or to appoint them?\nA.No; after all, either there were limited companies or GMBH, or shareholder companies, and they had their own organizations, their own administration. The shareholders appointed the board of directors and the board of directors decided who was to be the general manager, and we never interfered with that.\nQ.Did you have a financial share in any of the enterprises cf the Air Industry?\nA.No, never.\nQ.The agreements with the Air Ministry, therefore, were always free agreements between government and industry, were they?\nA.They were agreements--contracts which the industry could accept or reject or for which they could propose changes.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2581, "page_number": "", "date": "18 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-18", "text": "Q.I have only a few remaining questions now. Who was the man who was 2068A competent for death sentences with the Luftwaffe?", "speakers": [ "Q." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2582, "page_number": "2069", "date": "18 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-18", "text": "A.All death sentences were under Goering's direct supervision. He had reserved the right to decide on that, contrary to what was the custom in the army, where the army commanders had also the right to decide on death sentences.\nQ.Concerning the testimony of the witness, Richter, will you please tell us in what manner your 'phone calls' to other agencies or to the supreme command -- Through what channels these 'phone calls' went . . .\nMy machine had several levers, could in the house touch about four or five of my direct subordinates. When I wanted to make a 'phone call' then I had to get in touch with Richter who was in the ante room, and he had to make the connection with the official channel. I, myself, could not get into this channel directly. All 'phone calls' to Hitler, Goering and other agencies --military or civilians--only went through a special channel, official channel. That was not the normal postal network. In other words, if I wanted to show that in a plastic manner, I took off the receiver, pushed down the button \"Richter\" and said, \"Richter, I want to talk to Goering now.\" And then I put down the receiver. If Goering was in and was ready to talk with me, then in two minutes I had the connection with Goering--wherever he was; whether he was in Germany or abroad was quite indifferent. Every connection would take only two minutes to be brought about because my talks had priority and all other agencies immediately disconnected; and then Richter told me, \"Now the Reichsmarshall will be on the 'phone',\" and then I could talk with him.\nThank you. Witness, again concerning the testimony of Richter: What letters did not go through the office of Richter?\nA.If I speak from the military viewpoint, there was the open letter always went through Richter. Then there were military secret matters which also went via Richter; but in those cases on his own initiative he did not submit these matters himself out he gave them to the officer Court No. 2 (lrz) of my General Staff or to one of the adjutants, according to which field of tasks the letter belonged.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2583, "page_number": "", "date": "18 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-18", "text": "And then there were the so-called Top Secret matters. These matters were only transmitted by officers--and only directly to the receiver. I could not even show them to the officer of my General Staff. This concerned only questions of operational interest.\n- 2069 a Every second year I would receive such a letter headed by Top Secret, this letter would not be seen by Richter, and I couldn't even discuss the letter with anybody unless there was a special order in it that it should be discussed.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2584, "page_number": "2070", "date": "18 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-18", "text": "And this letter I even had to keep in my own safe.\nIn a general way, the Top Secret matters were not left with me but they had to be sent back once you had taken knowledge of the contents. But, as I said before, if, during the whole war I have received two Top Secret letters that should be about correct.\nQWitness, concerning your knowledge of the situation which now is subject to the general judgment... In this connection I would like to ask you: Did, at any time during the war, you receive foreign newspapers or were you authorized to read them?\nANo, we didn't receive any foreign newspapers. If there were matters concerning air planes in certain newspapers, then we would get a copy, and a copy was sent to us.\nQWere you in a position to hear foreign radio broadcasts, and were you allowed to do so?\nANo, that was quite prohibited in Germany, and strictly prohibited for myself. Within the Luftwaffe there were a certain number of persons who had been appointed, and they were authorized to hear the radio of the foreign country. I know, for instance, that the Chief of the General Staff was authorized to do so, and also the Chief of our Signal Service. I was not authorized to do so; and the other Air Marshals who had the air fleets were not authorized to do so, either...\nQWitness, but thousands of persons in Germany have listened in secret to these foreign senders. Couldn't didn't you, yourself, get knowledge of such a manner con cerning the way foreign countries judged the events in Germany?", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2585, "page_number": "", "date": "18 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-18", "text": "AFirst of all, I myself, had the tribunal where Germans where persons were judged when they listened to foreign stations. This tribunal had to condemn, had to sentence a man. And I, as the man in charge of the tribunal, received the sentence submitted to me, and I was asked whether I 2070 a would like to mitigate it.", "speakers": [ "A" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2586, "page_number": "2071", "date": "18 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-18", "text": "I shouldn't have held this position if I, myself, would have infringed the regulations.\nSecond, I, myself, thought it was ridiculous that listening to foreign radio stations was prohibited to the German people. After all, the German people were considered much more immature than they really were. Therefore, I considered it below my dignity to infringe such an order. Also, I would have endangered my people. I couldn't have done that secretly because my adjutant and my ordnance officers were around; they could have heard it themselves or others of the staff... It is true that none of them would have reported me, denounced me but perhaps they would have started to like it and they would have listened to foreign radio stations themselves, and then they would have been in a bad situation and I would have had the moral responsibility for their happenings.\nQWitness, the experts in the Reich Air Ministry - did none of them tell you anything about foreign stations - I mean, the persons who were authorized to listen to these foreign radio stations?\nAThey had the so-called Fuehrer Order Number One. Therefore, they did not tell me anything.\nQDo you mean to say that during the whole war you never heard anything about the way the foreign countries judged the German events?\nANo.\nQOn several occasions you have travelled through Germany and through the occupied territories. During these journeys, did you at no occasion notice a thing which was contrary to humanity?\nAI think that about ninety-five percent of my journ eys have been by plane and there I could not see anything of that.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2587, "page_number": "", "date": "18 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-18", "text": "And, on the occasions when I used the train which was mainly when I took part in the Fighter Staff journeys - then the travelling took place in a special train and we always went right away to the point where we had to go in order to do our work. And, there again, I had no possibility of seeing anything and on other occasions I had no possibility of travelling.\nQWitness, will you now explain to the Tribunal how over-burdened you were with work during all these years?\n2071 a", "speakers": [ "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2588, "page_number": "2072", "date": "18 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-18", "text": "AMay I refer to my field of tasks which is shown in one exhibit?\nDR. BERGOLD:May I ask this Tribunal to now see the charts which are in the Document Book Reman II, as first document, and look at this chart?", "speakers": [ "A", "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2589, "page_number": "2073", "date": "18 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-18", "text": "THE PRESIDENT:You mean defense document book?\nDR. BERGOLD:Defense Document Book Number 2, Milch 2. Has the Tribunal found the chart, or doesn't the Tribunal have it? Defense Document Book 2, Page 1.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Yes.\nA.Until the end of 1941 my main task was to be Inspector General of the Luftwaffe. From that point onward, the work as GL took the main part, while in my capacity as Inspector General I continuously travelled around by plane. But as Inspector General I was bound more strongly to the Berlin Ministry. Oh, I beg your pardon, I mean to say as GL. There we had meetings every day; and in my capacity as GL I took over a tentative staff in the Ministry which exceeded four thousand. I reduced this staff to about half of that; but in spite of that the number of conferences and meetings could not be reduced. Therefore, I had to go through the incredible amount of paper which was to be read and also the paper which had to be signed; and I had to take it home in the evening. I think that always amounted to two large suitcases and sometimes even three of them. On the average I would work at home until 2:00 o'clock. During the night the reading was the main task because in all technical matters I had to be up to the mark myself; and that was not quite simple for me for the very reason that I, after all, had not studied technique but rather was a self-made man and soldier who had been a pilot. In the morning I would start my duties at 9:00 o'clock or at 9:15. In general I would eat my lunch at my desk and often I even ate my dinner at my desk.\nI had the impression that I was overburdened with work; and even aside from these two functions, as GL and Inspector General of the Luftwaffe, I, of course, had to conduct different other offices in the Ministry. They made quite a lot of work for me. Even in my last position I was helped very strongly by the excellent General Foerster.\nQ.Witness, are the offices as they are shown on this chart which I have submitted to the Tribunal correct, and can you confirm them as such?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2590, "page_number": "2074", "date": "18 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-18", "text": "A.Yes.\nDR. BERGOLD:May it please the Tribunal, this concludes my interrogation; and I give the witness over to the prosecution. Your witness.\nMR. DENNEY:Your Honor, we have some documents which are being brought in; and I wonder if we might adjourn until 11:00 o'clock.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Yes. The Tribunal will recess until 11:00 o'clock.\nTHE MARSHAL:All persons in the Court please rise. This Tribunal is in recess until 11:00 o'clock.\n(A recess was taken.)", "speakers": [ "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "MR. DENNEY", "THE MARSHAL" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2591, "page_number": "2075", "date": "18 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-18", "text": "THE MARSHAL:The Tribunal is again in session.\nCROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. DENNEY:\nQ.You testified as a witness before the International Military Tribunal on behalf of the defendant Goering, did you not?\nA.Yes, I did.\nQ.And in the course of your testimony before the Tribunal you stated that you were the second highest officer in the Air Force?\nA.Yes, that was my rank.\nQSo that the only one who ranked you was Goering?\nA.Yes.\nQ.And that continued up until the time when you told us this morning that you completely withdrew, which, I believe was sometime in January of 1945?\nA.Yes. May I remark here that since 1937 several officers were in the second place. That is to say, the Chief of the General Staff, the Chief of the Personnel Office, and also the GL. We were all of the same rank, as it were, but I was the most senior officer among them.\nQ.And under Goering there were really four eschelons; that is the Chief of Staff, the Inspector General, the Generalluftseugmeister, and the Director of the Personnel Office?\nA.Yes. They were all equal to each other.\nQ.Goering was on top, and then came these four in a parallel line below him; is that right?\nA.Yes, under Goering.\nQ.And you, from 1941, November, following Udet's death until sometime in the middle of 1944, held both the office of Generalluftseugmeister and Inspector General?", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "A.", "Q.", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2592, "page_number": "2076", "date": "18 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-18", "text": "A.That is correct.\nQ.Now, during the first trial you testified -- again I am speaking of the International Military Tribunal -- you testified that the first knowledge you had of concentration camps, other then the two, Dachau and Oranienburg, occurred following your capture?\nA.Yes.\nQ.And prior to that time, prior to the time you were captured, you know nothing about the conditions in concentrations camps?\nA.I described very carefully at the time, as I did here, what I saw in my one and only visit to a concentration camp. That was Dachau.\nQ.That visit, as I recall, was made in approximately 1935?\nA.As far as I recall it, yes.\nQ.Now, when did you first learn that concentration camp inmates were being employed in the Luftwaffe?\nA.I can not give you the date here. It was their use in the Heinkel factory in Oranienburg. That factory was a few kilometers away from the concentration camp. The factory did not report this to us at first, but it became clear as time went on. As far as I know, the chief of my technical office reported it in one of the conferences, but I could not know whether that was in 1943 or the beginning of 1944.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2593, "page_number": "2077", "date": "18 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-18", "text": "Q.It would have been '42?\nA.I am unable to say that, but I hardly think it was so early that concentration camp inmates were used and supplied for our work, but I am afraid I cannot really say precisely.\nQ.Now, when did you first learn about foreign laborers being employed in the German war economy?\nA.When in 1941 I became G.L. I found that foreign workers and prisoners of war were working in factories.\nQ.Did you ever get any reports on the numbers of prisoners of war and foreign workers who were working in Germany?\nA.The total figure I saw only in 1944 when on the 1st of March we made this list with Sauckel. As I recall it that was the first time that I saw the total figures. There are single detail figures which might have cropped up earlier, of course, but statistically speaking which the G.L. drew up, the figures were always mentioned which were reported to us by the industry.\nQ.So, as far as you recall, the first time that you saw any large number of figures with reference to foreign labor and prisoners of war was in 1944, maybe in connection with the chart which you described just the other day?\nA.That is low I recall it now.\nQ.Do you recall speaking to one of the judges the other day about the situation of the Polish workers in Germany?\nA.Yes, I recall that occasion.\nQ.And you stated that there were isolated instances in which Polish people were mistreated, if I recall?\nA.No, all I said was I can well imagine that people misbehave at times and equally that people mistreat other people. I do not know a concrete instance myself, but I talk about cases when I saw Poles myself.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2594, "page_number": "2078", "date": "18 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-18", "text": "Everything was in order.\nQ.Well, you weren't familiar then with the treatment which was expressed by Governor General Frank in a letter to Sauckel of 21 November, 1943?\nA.No, I do not know that letter.\nMR. DENNEY:This, your Honors, is Document 908 PS, and I am just quoting in part from it now to see whether or not it recalls anything to the witness.\nQ. \"The recruiting of Poles for the Mobilization of labor in the Reich takes place unconditionally; in the assignment to their work they have no personal say. Their obligation to work in the Reich is unlimited in regard to time. Even in the case of serious family reasons they have no guarantee for a return to their homeland. Therefor for the Poles employment in the Reich has essentially the charactteristics of a restriction of freedom, similar to imprisonment.\n\"The regulation of 5 October, 1941, with reference to the application of labor laws to the treatment of Polish laborers places them outside the community of the factory. No obligation for social care exists beyond the purpose of maintaining their capacity to work.\"\nAnd then over a little farther he says, \"According to the regulations of 51 March 1943 on leave of absence for civilian workers (male and female) of Polish extraction employed in the Reich, the rights of Poles to leave of absence and family trips home are not in effect at present. According to the Reich wages and hours law issued for them, the Polish farm workers have no claim whatsoever to leave of absence. In case of an exceptional permission for a temporary return to the homeland only to me without pay may be granted.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2595, "page_number": "2079", "date": "18 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-18", "text": "\"In the past two years a number of especially efficient Polish workers were permitted to go home on leave in order to give an incentive for greater efficiency to those Poles whose work is not satisfactory; but the number of furloughs was so limited that most of the Poles now working their fourth year in the Reich have not yet had the privilege of home leave.\n\"Civil litigation arising from contracts of employment with Polish labor shall not come under the jurisdiction of Labor courts. The Poles do not have the privilege of protection through agencies of the state as is the case in regard to other foreigners. Only the possibility of obtaining a settlement by arbitration through the office of the Employment Service exists for them.\n\"According to the police order by the Reich Minister of the Interior of 8 March 1940, all civilian workers of Polish nationally extraction are compelled to have the distinguishing mark \"P\" attached to all their clothing. We knew from experience that the Poles regard this a particularly degrading regulation.\n\"The Poles are forbidden to take part in church services for two German population and visit any churches. Up to now it has not been permitted to send Polish clergymen to the Reich to organize their own services. Because of the pronounced religious feeling of the Poles according to their Roman Catholic faith, this lack of spiritual care is of tremendous significance. I causes parents in the Government-General to prevent their children from leaving the country.\n\"In addition, the attitude of the clergy to the Mobilization of labor in the Reich is strongly affected and the population is very much under its influence.\"", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2596, "page_number": "2080", "date": "18 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-18", "text": "Then it goes on a little further and says, \"Poles who were transported to the Reich under the Mobilization of Labor and who are permanently incapable of working because of insanity, and are in need cf care in an institution, are no longer taken back to their homeland.\" Did you ever hear anything about this particular decree having to do with Polish workers?\nA.No, this is quite unknown to me. As far as I know we are in our industry had no Polish workers, at least I know nothing about it.\nQ.So far as you know you never had any Polish people working in the Luftwaffe?\nA.I never saw anyone there and therefore am unable to say anything. As far as I know they were usually working in the country.\nQ.In the country?\nA.In the country, yes. There I saw Poles at the end of the war, and that is what I described previously to the Court the other day.\nQ.Now, about prisoners of war, what kinds of prisoners of war did you know were working in Germany?\nA.I know of French and Russian prisoners of war.\nQ.You didn't know about any others?\nA.I cannot recall anything at the moment. As far as I know Norwegian, Belgian, Dutch and also Polish prisoners of war were also released immediately. From Greece and countries like that I saw nobody, and at the end I know that Italian prisoners of war, the so-called Imi's, worked in Germany on as all scale, but what I saw, our own Luftwaffe industry, were Frenchmen and a small number of Russians. Of course, it is quite possible that some others were used, but I couldn't say at this moment of what nationality. That would have been another question.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2597, "page_number": "2081", "date": "18 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-18", "text": "I didn't recall to have seen any.\nQ.I am going to land you a letter from Sauckel to you, together with an acknowledgment from you to Sauckel. The letter is dated 1 April, 1943, and your acknowledgment is dated 7 April, 1943.\nMR. DENNEY:The court will recall that he said he never had any communications from Sauckel.\nQ. (Continuing) And in addition enclosed with this is a speech which Sauckel gave in Posen on the 5th and 6th of February, 1943, and on Page 17 of the original there are some rather interesting figures.\nMR. DENNEY:It will take a little time to get the copies. I believe on the German copy, Dr. Bergold, the letters appear at the end. that is on the photostatic copies. You have the whole speech, but we are only interested in the two letters and the two excerpts from the speech.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2598, "page_number": "2082", "date": "18 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-18", "text": "If Your Honor pleases, I ask that this be marked Exhibit 132 for identification. This is a letter, dated 1 April 1943. The writer of the letter is Sauckel, and the letter is addressed to the defendant.\n\"Most honored Field Marshal, \"I take the liberty of enclosing in confidence three copies of the speech I gave in Posen an 5th and 6th February 1943, on the occasion of the Reich and Gauleiters meeting and beg you kindly to peruse it.\nThe figures contained in this speech refer to the end of the year 1942. Of course, the figures given concerning utilization of labor have again increased in the meantime. I would ask for your continued sympathetic understanding of the interests of manpower utilization, and your understanding and assistance in my task as far as possible. On my side, I can assure you that I always have asked the offices of the labor supply administration subordinate to me for close and successful cooperation with all departments and that I will do so for the future too.\"\n\"With Heil Hitler, yours respectfully, Sauckel.\"\nAnd, on the 7th, the last page, the defendant acknowledge receipt of this letter: \"Most esteemed Gauleiter, \"I think you most cordially for kindly transmitting to me the speech you made in Posen on 5th and 6th February 1943 on the occasion of the Reich and Gauleiters meeting.\nHeil Hilter! Yours.\"\nThat is addressed to Sauckel, Berlin W 8, Hohrenstrasse 65, and of particular interest is paragraph 2 on page 1.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The other way around, Mr. Denney.\nMR. DENNEY:Paragraph 1 on page 2.\nTHE PRESIDENT:That's right.\nMR. DENNEY:Yes; I'm sorry.\n\"According to the Fuehrer's decree of March 21st, 1942, the Plenipotentiary General for the Employment of Labor has the task, within the scope of the tasks of the Plenipotentiary for the Four Year Plan, the Reich Marshal of Greater Germany, party member Hermann Goering, of securing the necessary manpower for the entire war economy and particularly for the armament industry. He must guarantee a uniform method, adapted to the requirements of war economy, of controlling the utilization of all available manpower including hired foreigners and prisoners of war, as well as the mobilization of all manpower still untapped in Greater Germany, including the Protectorate, and also in the Government-General and in the occupied territories.\"", "speakers": [ "MR. DENNEY", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2599, "page_number": "2083", "date": "18 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-18", "text": "Those two terms, as Your Honors know, in the first place refer to Bohemia and Moravia, and in the second, to Poland, and then, on page 11, paragraph 4, there is a recapitulation with reference to employed workmen and employees in World War I. June 1914 shows that they had a total of ten million, seven hundred odd thousand. In December of the same year they had seven million four hundred odd thousand. In September 1918 they had eight million eight hundred odd thousand. In those figures, they refer to men and women. Then, in the following page, they speak of the present war, the number of people employed - in June 1939, 25 million, two hundred odd thousand men and women; November 1942, 28 million, five hundred odd thousand, both men and women. And then on page seven there is a list of foreign workers employed according to their nationaliities, and that list is broken up into prisoners of war on the one hand, and workers on the other. The workers listed are Belgians, 131,000; French 135,000; Italians, 200,000; Jugoslavs, 54,000; Croates, 64,000; Dutch, 154, 000; Hungarians, 31,000; Protectorate, Bohemia and Moravia, 193,000; in the General Government, which is Poland, 896,000; Estonians and Latvians, 30,000; Protective Power, 501,000; Eastern workers, 1,350,000; other foreigners, 275,000. Prisoners of war - Belgians 55,000 all these numbers are approximate, again, as are those listed under \"Workers.\" - French, 932,000; English, 45, 000; Jugoslavs, 101,000; Poles, 33,000; Russians, 488,000;", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2600, "page_number": "", "date": "18 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-18", "text": "others, 4,000.\nBY MR. DENNEY:\nQDo you recall receiving them from Sauckel on April 1st, 1943?\nANo; I was not here for a few days at the beginning of April - I saw his remark, by somebody else, on this document. It probably says - can't read it very well probably something about the files of the Central Planning Board. Perhaps this letter may have been submitted to me later on. Nor do I know whether I replied myself. I certainly did not read the report 2083 a because otherwise I would be able to recall the figures.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2601, "page_number": "2084", "date": "18 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-18", "text": "Q.But you did initial tho letter, didn't you?\nA.I do not know. I do not recall it at all. It must have boon submitted to me because I put my i *I on it. As far as tho figures are concerned, I can't, of course, say anything about them. I see that prisoners of war wore mainly French and Russians, whereas the figures concerning Poland and Belgium were only a fraction of the actual prisoners, and, as far as I am concerned, I knew that those two nations will had prisoners of war in Germany.\nQ.Did you get any other reports from Sauckel about labor?\nA.I cannot recall a single one at this moment, but I may add, I did not say that Sauckel occasionally sent reports to me. I, personally, quite apart from the Central Planning Board, did not negotiate with Sauckel, because Sauckel did not come and see me, nor did I go to see him. I know certainly that I do not know where Sauckel's office was. When, if he had it in the Labor Ministry, where Minister Seldte was in office, all I can say is that I never went there.\nQ.Where was Mehrenstrasse, M-E-H-R-E-N-S-T-R-A-S-S-E, in Berlin?\nA.That was in central Berlin.\nQ.Well, even if you didn't know where his office was, somebody found the address for you and sent the letter off?\nA.Yes; of course. It was quite well known. Only I didn't know it, because I didn't take any interest.\nQ.Do you notice the figure on there in English, \"45,000\"?\nA.One moment. Yes, yes, I see here, 45,000.\nQ.I suppose English are listed as employed foreign workers; isn't that it?\nA.All I can imagine here is that perhaps they worked in the forests, or something like that, because if prisoners of war volunteered for that, they could be given work of that nature, but I know very well that in the armament industry of the Luftwaffe, there were no English workers, because I would have noticed that immediately when I paid a visit.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2602, "page_number": "2085", "date": "18 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-18", "text": "Q.And, as long as were on the subject of the Luftwaffe, you also say there no Americans that ever worked there?\nA.No; never, because, under the Geneva Convention, which was concluded with those two countries, and which had not been renounced by a treaty, as in the case of France, it was forbidden.\nMR. DENNEY:On the copy that Your Honors have, I believe it's apparent up in the upper lefthand corner of the first page, the defendants initials appear there, as well as on the original letter.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2603, "page_number": "2086", "date": "18 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-18", "text": "We are sending for the original and it will be apparent from that that the same pencil which was used on the outside was also used to make some marks on the inside of the speech.\nQ.You have said that you were interested in seeing the foreigners who were working be well treated in order that they would produce as much as possible for the German war economy?\nA.I did not send workers myself but whenever there was an opportunity we pointed out that these people would be well fed, because we said somebody who doesn't eat well cannot work well.\nQ.And you certainly tried to give them as good treatment as you gave the German workers?\nA.Yes, quite.\nQ.And the 84-hour week had been ordered by you at the beginning of the war, had it not?\nA.Not by me, but it was ordered quite generally at the time. The decision of how many hours should be worked was not within the power of the Air Ministry, but the office of labor Assignment. That was not Sauckel at that time, when war broke out, but the Reich Minister of Labor.\nQ.How was that 84-hour week broken up? Was it seven 12-hour days or six 14-hour days?\nA.Six days, eight hours. Each weekday eight hours as far as I know. Those were the normal working hours in peacetime. I believe there were factories which, on certain days apart from Saturday, worked eight hours and a half, and therefore on Saturdays closed down at lunchtime. Whether they were able to do so under their own initiative or by permission from the Ministry of Labor I am unable to say.\nQ.Perhaps you did not understand my first question. Maybe the interpreters reversed the figures. Didn't you order an 84-hour week at the beginning of the war?\nA.I was not in a position to order it.\nQ.Well, in any event in the letter yesterday which Dr. Bergold submitted to you, which isNOKW-287, it appears on page 101 of Document Book 2-C, a letter addressed to the Plenipotentiary for the Four Year Plan, General Plenipotentiary for Labor Assignment, the third paragraph, it says, \"In the field of the Air Force industry I already ordered at the beginning of the war the 84-hour week for these sectors so that no further increase can be made with those working hours, for otherwise there would be an increase of illness which would bring about a further unwarranted weakening in the numbers of personnel.\"", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2604, "page_number": "2087", "date": "18 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-18", "text": "Do you recall that?\nA.No, there must be a mistake somewhere. At the beginning of the war I was not in that position, at the beginning of the war. An 84-hour week I think was quite impossible. I think it is cut of the question. I think that figure I recall vaguely from the time of the Jaegerstab and that is much too much. Nobody could work that long. And at the beginning of the war it is quite impossible that that existed.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Mr. Denney?\nMR. DENNEY:Yes.\nTHE PRESIDENT:I think this exhibit will have to be Number 133.\nMR.DENNEY: 133? Yes, sir.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The letter of George Scapini was 132.\nMR. DENNEY:Yes, sir.\nQ. (By Mr. Denney) Now, do you ever recall saying that you would put the German workers into concentration camps, the ones who did not work well?\nA.When I talked about slackers, I referred to education by Himmler, but not of sending them into concentration camps, but Himmler had other training places for workers where such people who were disciplined to work were being trained by making their supplementary rations dependent on their production.\nQ.Don't you recall that you asked that certain camps be set up to especially take care of these German workers who weren't doing well?\nA.I said not that we should make a special camp, but they should go to the training camps which already existed and we could get them back from there. I do wish to emphasize here these are people, Germans, who did not do their duty towards their fatherland.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "MR.", "A.", "THE PRESIDENT", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2605, "page_number": "2088", "date": "18 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-18", "text": "Such people I thought it was justified to educate them.\nQ Did you know a man named Brueckner?\nAYes.\nQWhat was his job?\nAHe was with the chief of my planning office. Originally, as far as I know, ho came from the army and he took care of statistics and personnel questions.\nQDon't you recall asking him whether or not camps had been set up for these people?\nANo, I can not recall that. I spoke with him very rarely because quite generally his chief reported to me; that is to say, the chief of the planning office.\nQWell, you knew around the middle of 1942, did you not, that Sauckel had brought a substantial number of foreign workers to Germany; as a matter of fact, over a million?\nA.I am certain I did not know that at the time because Sauckel at that time had just taken over office and at that time I was not interested in those questions personally because I had quite enough to do as I had to direct armament by the end of 1941, and I could not interfere in all these very difficult questions of technical processes. I was unable at the time to see what these four thousand people who were on our records did and so forth. At first they were four thousand; later on they were two thousand four hundred people who worked. They work and write an awful lot and that makes it necessary to write many replies. Overworked as I was, I was unable to take note of everything; that would have teen quite impossible. I was quite glad if the things which reached me would be passed on to the people who had to work on it.\nQSo you didn't know in the middle of 1942 that Sauckel had already brought over a million workers to Germany?", "speakers": [ "A", "A.", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2606, "page_number": "", "date": "18 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-18", "text": "ANo, I do not recall anything there. Sauckel may have said so; that's quite possible, but I did not recall it. I did not make note of it.\n2088 a", "speakers": [ "A" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2607, "page_number": "2089", "date": "18 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-18", "text": "Q.Now, what was your attitude on these foreign labor contracts? What did you think about then?\nA.I never saw the contracts nor did I know them.\nQ.Well, didn't you have something to do with extending these foreign labor contracts?\nA. personally, certainly not. That we made a statement on that score, that they should be extended, for instance, is quite possible, but it was not our task to make contracts or extend contracts.\nQ.Well, you don't know then whether or not there was anything that had to do with the compulsory extension of these contracts?\nA.I am unable to recall a detail of that sort at this moment.\nQ.You knew in 1942 that these concentration camp workers were available, didn't you?\nA.As I said before, I don't recall that year. I don't think I knew that particular year.\nQ.You knew that Himmler could deal with people outside the law, didn't you?\nA.What he did and whether that was within or without the law I did not know as a positive fact, nor was I informed as to the type of people who were in concentration camps at the time. My sole knowledge comes from 1935.\nQ.In other words, except for what you saw in 1935 and what you learned after the war, you did not know anything about who went into concentration camps?\nA.I knew that they existed, of course. As I said, I only knew the names of those two. That there would be others, although I didn't know where or how, is quite possible. The term concentration camp was used quite often in Germany because it moved everybody. But I had no knowledge of the conditions there and what they looked like.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2608, "page_number": "2090", "date": "18 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-18", "text": "QAnd you didn't know who went into them...?\nAIn my view, people who had opposed and offended against Germany's interests... That is to say, apart from criminal - in the legal sense; political prisoners.\nQDid you know that they sent foreigners to them?\nAIt had not come to my knowledge at the time.\nQYou never knew that until after the war was over?\nAI heard that after the war, yes. I didn't see it, but I only heard about it.\nQDo you recall at any time making a statement about shooting or beating or hanging workers, other than the ones that have already been testified to here in Court, either through statements or documents?\nAI do not recall that at this moment, but it is quite possible, but in tho same sense as I did at the time.\nQ How many people used to go to the Jaegerstab meetings?\nAThat depended, and varied. I can recall there were conferences of about twenty people. At the beginning there sometimes were less, usually, and sometimes there were more. When the conferences were held in Tempelhof, they were bigger , tho attendance was bigger. It is quite possible that perhaps it went up to fourty people, but at that time I seldom attended.\nQWell, at those general Luftzeugmeister meetings how many people were there?\nAI should say between thirty and forty; there may have been a conference with more but that would have been about a special question. But there were a great many conferences attended by less than thirty people. I never counted them; I can only make an estimation. Also, there was a coming and going. Some people attended at first that left later on for their work, and others came in. The same applied, of course, to the Jaegerstab.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2609, "page_number": "", "date": "18 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-18", "text": "QNow, about the prisoners of war. You said the only Italians that you recalled were some so-called Minis or Imis...\nANo, at this moment I know of none else.\nQHow many of those were there; do you recall?\nANo idea. I never knew it.\n2090 a", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2610, "page_number": "2091", "date": "18 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-18", "text": "Q.Do you recall what the living conditions which you advocated were for these foreign laborers?\nA.That depended, I suppose. When I paid visits and when I put questions to then the replies would show that everything was in order. But sometimes there were complaints from other sources that food was insufficient or that clothes weren't good enough --particularly, shoes were lacking; and there were cases when we parsed on a recommendation to correct these things.\nQ.Yon don't ever recall tolling people that, or saying that the workers should sleep in the factories?\nA.That had become necessary with the Jaegerstab as all the apartments had been destroyed and, actually, German and foreign workers lived in special rooms in the factory itself, provided always, of course, that the factory was still standing and was not destroyed. Whereas the dwellings and the hones of those people had been destroyed. In the Ministry, a largo part of our people slept in their offices because their flats in Berlin had been destroyed by bombs. That was quite a normal, if regrettable, state of affairs.\nQ.You don't recall getting men from Himmler in 1943?\nA.It is quite possible. At this moment I do not know what this is supposed to be about.\nQ.Well, concentration camp people ...\nA.Yes; but I mean, for what purposes; where was this? And to whom it was addressed?\nQ.Well, it would have to do with something that you were interested in if you wore getting people from Himmler for the Air Force industry.\nA.I am unable to say anything about this at this time because I don't know the process.\nQ.Do you recall the orders that you gave in the event that there were any uprisings in the factories by these foreign workers?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2611, "page_number": "", "date": "18 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-18", "text": "A.I don't recall this at the moment, but I can well imagine that I would have taken very strong measures.\nQ.Do you recall talking to Himmler about that?\nA.I can't recall that, no. But it is quite possible because I myself, would have been unable to take stops myself. All I could do if I heard about 2091-A something --I could only pass it on, unless it had already been dealt with in the normal manner, which is the most likely thing.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2612, "page_number": "2092", "date": "18 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-18", "text": "Q.Do you recall a speech by Goering on the seventh of November, 1941, which is Document 1206, PS Exhibit 9, in evidence, which has to do with the employment of laborers in war industries?\nA.I see that on that day there was a conference of the Four Years' Plan.\nQ.Where was that held?\nA.I am unable to tell you. Perhaps in the Reich Air Ministry because when Goering had a larger number of people he wanted to address, he needed our big halls; and then he used to come to the Reich Air Ministry.\nQ.You have seen Exhibit 9, in evidence of the Prosecution, which are notes on the outline laid down by Goering in this meeting, have you not?\nA.I don't recall it at the moment.\nQ.Were you at this meeting?\nA.I don't recall it. At that time I was not interested in that question yet; and from the list which is attached underneath, I see that none of my officials were present.\nQ.Then you don't have anything in the notes that you have to indicate whether you were there or not?\nA.No; there is nothing there. Whenever Goering came to the Ministry --which didn't happen very often--he usually came to see me first --the few times. Then, when he needed a room somewhere in the Ministry I used to accompany him to this place, but I did not remain with him unless it was a meeting which was in my sphere of tasks, which was the general military custom throughout Germany.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2613, "page_number": "2093", "date": "18 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-18", "text": "Q.Did you ever hear anything about the changing of exchange rates with reference to these foreign workers?\nA.No, all that I recall is that sometimes there were complaints that there were difficulties with the offices concerned with that business, with the transfer of wages to the hone countries of the foreigners. I heard that occasionally, but that was not our task. I believe that one document I saw here shows that I am trying to do something about this; that what I said was that something should be done about it because these people should be helped.\nMR. DENNEY:I have here a document which I shall read from. This is NOKW-195. We don't have the German copies of it yet, your Honor, and we will submit then this afternoon. I am just going to read from it now, Dr. Bergold. This isNOKW-195. It is a stenographic record of a discussion with the Reichsmarschall on 28 October 1943, held at noon at Karinhall. The subject is the allocation of manpower, the effects of the drafting of laborers. The participants arc rather an interesting list: the Reichsmarshall, Speer, Milch, Sauckel, General von der Heyde, Staatsrat Gritzbach, Dr. Groenner, Ministerial Director Hildebrandt, Landrat Berg, Colonel Biesing, Colonel von Brauchitsch, Director Frydag. The copy which we have is the fourth and bears the signature of the defendant on the outside.\nReading from page 6020 of the original:\n\"Milch: Interesting are the figures on the decrease of prisoners of war where one had believed they would remain stable. Between January and August the figure went down for the Russians from 22,000 to 19,000 and for the others from 48,000 to 28,000. In the summer the prisoners of war decreased from 70,000 to 48,000.\"\nThen we go along twelve pages later at 6032 when Goering says:\n\"Here you report to me and to the Fuehrer: From 1 January to 30 September a total of 2,200,000 in manpower could be made available for armament production.\"\nSauckel interrupts: \"But not for the first time.\"", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2614, "page_number": "2094", "date": "18 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-18", "text": "Goering says: \"Among which there were 770,000 prisoners of war. Through allocation 300,000 of these who have been drafted for armament and the armed services and those who left for other reasons were replaced. The labor for the most important armament industry was increased by 650,000, from 5,300,000 to 5,900,000.\"\nThen over on page 6045 Goering says, \"Then there is one more question which again belongs here and which in all seriousness must be discussed. Suppose that in the central sector of Holland between Arnheim, Utrecht, and Dortrecht I place at your disposal for three days 15,000 young German soldiers, recruits, who have been there eight days, together with their respective officer corps, for handling the executive, to catch the young Dutchmen. This would have to be carefully prepared, of course, Would you expect good results? It goes without saying that everything must be well organized in advance - transport to move then out, camps to receive them here far away from the Dutch frontier.\"\nSauckel: \"Considering the Dutch population figures, that amounts to something. However, the same should be done in Poland and France.\"\nGoering: \"Naturally. After that has been done once, one has to modify the system for the second blow. Then the Dutch people will be no longer out in the streets on Sunday for pleasure promenades.\"\nSpeer: \"Care should be taken now not to affect the protective industries which we have established there. Their workers are also out for walks on Sundays.\"\nGoering: \"First all the people must be brought together in a pen. Then they will be asked individually who works where. Then the men will be selected accordingly.\"\nSauckel: \"We should like to set an example. However, I do not like to rely on this alone for the next year. I should like to ask that one have confidence in us that, reasonably speaking, we are doing things the right way. The factories which Speer has barred to us ---\"\nAnd then Goering interrupts: \"Really I am not imposing, but when I constantly hear, 'I could do very much more if I only had the executive power', then I am ready to assist you, not permanently, but then for five days or one week, by putting my men at your disposal.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2615, "page_number": "2095", "date": "18 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-18", "text": "In France also we have training regiments, and the army too can arrange to make certain units available so as to make a big push.\"\nSauckel: \"If I may be permitted to speak quite frankly, the conditions are as follows. All of our military commanders and all our general commissaries with the exception of Koch, the general governors, take the stand that in all of their regions the supreme law is tranquility and order. Also during the present era of war these German people still feel - after all, that is typically German - the inherent obligation of maintaining order in their country and of somehow protecting the local population.\"\nThen they go on, and over here Goering replies to a statement by Sauckel in which says, \"May I call attention to the following; That which makes things very difficult for me at the moment is the question of our currency. It is a fact that prices in France and in the entire West are very much out of proportion. If we bring the workers to Germany and according to German standards we pay them just as well as the German workers, that does not help then at all because their families living in the occupied territories can't buy anything with the money that the people transfer. I should like to ask you, Herr Reichsmarschall, to talk with Reichsminister Funk and with other competent officials so that under all circumstances and with all possible means the German Mark will preserve its purchasing power against the French franc just as it was done on the other side during the world war.\"\nReichsmarshall: \"All we need to do is to fix the rate of exchange, just as was done at that time with the dollar, i.e., today the German mark equals 20 francs, tomorrow 23, then 27, then 40, and so forth, up to one million, or one billion. We have had all that. The same holds true for the guilder. One cigarette now costs in Holland 1.50 guilders; formerly it cost 10 cents. I merely have to say, 1.50 guilders equal 10 pfennig or one mark equals 15 guildiers.\"", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2616, "page_number": "2096", "date": "18 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-18", "text": "Sauckel: \"That would solve a big problem in the wage question.\"\nGoering: \"The same is done in Belgium. I shall schedule a discussion on that with Mr. Funk. With friendly nations it is more difficult; nevertheless, there, too, we have to do it.\"\nSauckel: \"There is still something I should like to say. If this large-scale recruiting is carried into effect, even with coercion, it is nothing but compliance with laws which were promulgated there by their own governments, except that the governments declare they lack the executive power.\"\nGoering: \"That is always the excuse. I simply shall give them the executive power. Let me summarize it once more. We undoubtedly are agreed on the fact that what Sauckel brings to us here, and that which to us appears as stocking up, has been subject to a natural compromise and actually a greeter number of people was necessary to make up for the losses. If it had been impossible to obtain more labor, there would of , necessity have been a decrease merely by reason of the draft, the increased rate of disease during the war, deaths, etc. The decrease in prisoners of war should really be insignificant unless there are modifications. On the contrary, I should like to see that the prisoners of war who had been released, Norwegians and so forth, be taken again. Insofar as officers are concerned, this has been done to a certain extent. It was the greatest nonsense ever committed by us and for which nobody thanks us. We have made prisoners of entire armies and we let them go again. We do not get anything from Norway.\"\nSauckel: \"No, even Russians are being taken there, also French specialists. The tasks there are much bigger than the population can cope with.\"\nBY MR. DENNEY:\nQ.Do you recall this meeting?\nA.I recall that there was a meeting there, but the content I do not recall in detail because, one, it happened a long time ago, and, second, because that meeting had been preceded by a personal talk with Goering, which I described this morning, when a terrific argument occurred between Goering and me.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2617, "page_number": "2097", "date": "18 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-18", "text": "That was the day when Goering, after Hitler had turned him down in the formation of a new cabinet, made me responsible for his failure. Consequently I was very preoccupied and depressed therefrom. There were so many conferences during the war and so much was talked over by everybody that even somebody who had a better memory than I would have been unable to recall a thing like that because of the fact that these subjects were only hurriedly touched upon, as it were, first of all. Everybody tried, like Goering or Sauckel, to help in this very difficult situation.\nQ.What was the difficult situation? The obtaining of labor?\nA.No, that was the extremely unhappy military situation. Others had seen, too, that a different kind of effort would be necessary in order to get out of this war relatively unscathed.\nQ.Do you, recall anything about Goering's little lecture on economy there, foreign exchange values?\nA.From that mooting you mean? No, I do not recall that.\nMR. DENNEY:I wonder if we could adjourn now for lunch, your Honor.\nTHE PRESIDENT:We will adjourn until 1:30.\nTHE MARSHAL:Tribunal Number 2 is in recess until 1330 hours.\n(A recess was taken until 1330 hours.)", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "THE PRESIDENT", "MR. DENNEY", "THE MARSHAL" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2618, "page_number": "2098", "date": "18 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-18", "text": "AFTERNOON SESSION (The Tribunal reconvened at 1340 hours.)\nTHE MARSHAL:The Tribunal is again in session.\nMR. DENNEY:If Your Honor pleases, I would like to assign number 134 for Identification to the Document 908-PS, which was read from to the witness, it being a letter from Frank, the Governor General of Poland, to Sauckel, dated 21 November 1943.\nTHE PRESIDENT:We have not had copies of this yet, have we?\nMR. DENNEY:No, sir, not yet, nor has Dr. Bergold.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Will you be good enough to give us the document number again?\nMR. DENNEY:The exhibit number will be 134, and the document number is 908-PS.\nTHE PRESIDENT:That is a letter from -\nMR. DENNEY:Frank, the Governor General of Poland, to Sauckel, dated 21 November 1943. The addressee is Fritz Sauckel, the Plenipotentiary for Labor.\nCROSS EXAMINATION -- Continued ERHARD MILCH -- Resumed BY MR. DENNEY:\nQ.Witness, I believe you said you kept a diary?\nA.A diary? You could not call it exactly a diary. I only took some short notes concerning my stay, and I took down a few notes which contained generally the most important part.\nQ.That was lost, was it, or destroyed, when you were captured?\nA.It has not been lost. I still have it here, after all.\nQ.That is what you are referring to?\nA.If I look up where I was at a particular day or what personalities I met, I mean I refer only to the most important questions, not to everything, and I can refer to it and see whom I was with on that day. Sometimes there is a table of contents, too, which is more detailed, according to the interest I had in those questions.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "THE PRESIDENT", "MR. DENNEY", "THE MARSHAL" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2619, "page_number": "2099", "date": "18 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-18", "text": "For instance, for 28 October, which you referred to a while ago, I only have the following: My dispute with Goering he had reported to Hitler; he had not obtained anything, and now he started to get rid of his bad humor on me, and now we have a short note again that there was a conference afterwards with Goering. That was in Karinhall. It went on for the whole day. It was one hour from Berlin by car. I noted down that Speer was there, that Sauckel was there, Grawitz, von Der Heide, and some others. There is no mention what subjects were discussed, but the attendance of Sauckel clarifies the matter for me. That is an example of how I would enter these notes in this book.\nQ.Insofar as you recall, you were at that meeting on 28 October?\nA.Yes, indeed. I have found it here in my book.\nQ.Do you recall that we were talking about Exhibit 133, Document NOKW 352, in three parts: the letter from Sauckel to you, together with a copy of his speech made to the gauleiters on 5 and 6 February 1943 in Poson, and your reply to Sauckel? Now, on the prior queries with reference to this, you stated that you do not know whether you read it or not. Your initials appear on the outside of the speech and also on the letter from Sauckel to you.\nA.Yes, I said that before; also, that in both instances I made my sign. That moans that I initialed it because it had been submitted to me, but that does not mean that I have read it or that I did not read it. It is quite obvious that I have not read the whole of the speech. I know that perfectly well, but I might have glanced through it. I really couldn't tell whether I have glanced through it, and a notation with a red pencil somewhere is no proof that I made it because that might have been done by the expert who sent it in to me in order to awaken my interest and stress this particular point. After all, I was not the only man to use a red pencil. This red pencil was used in other instances in my office, also, and in other offices.\nQ.What do you toll the Court about it now, that you did read it or that you did not read it?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2620, "page_number": "", "date": "18 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-18", "text": "A.No, I certainly have not read the whole of this. This was much too 2099a long, and I did not have that much time to road this whole story.", "speakers": [ "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2621, "page_number": "2100", "date": "18 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-18", "text": "Above all, it did not concern my field of tasks, at least not directly. There were many speeches at gauleiter conferences, and very often they wore also mimeographed. There were many people who particularly stressed that the speeches they made should be directed to all the offices, but that was not a reason for me, with the burden of work I had, to road through such a long speech. It is possible that it was submitted to me and that I glanced through it.\nQ.It must have been submitted to you if your initials are on the outside of the speech.\nA.Yes on the outside. I do not contest that it was submitted to me. Certainly it has been submitted to me. That can be seen from the initials \"M.I.\" as also from the date \"6/4\", that is, the day it arrived at my office and was submitted to me as well as from the \"M.I.\" on the letter that was sent by Sauckel.\nQ.Now, with reference to the rate of money in foreign exchange that Goering discussed in that meeting at Karinhall on 28 October 1943, you told the Tribunal that you did not recall hearing about the rate of exchange at that meeting. Do you recall hearing about it at any other time?\nA.The rate of exchange, yes, that has been discussed at some occasions, but, with the best of my intentions, I cannot tell you when it was discussed and who discussed it.\nA.Do you recall anything regarding the discussions?\nQ.No, I have no recollection that it was at that time, but I consider that impossible that I could remember it.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Mr. Denney, let's get an unequivocal answer to this. Did you put the initials on the letter from Sauckel?\nA.The \"M.I.\", yes, indeed.\nTHE PRESIDENT:You wrote that?\nA.Yes, I did. I wrote it. Somebody else wrote \"to the files--\"\nTHE PRESIDENT:Never mind what somebody else wrote. Now, on the first page of the pamphlet, the printed speech, there are some initials.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2622, "page_number": "", "date": "18 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-18", "text": "Did you write those?\nA.On the cover, yes; I did, \"M.I., 6/4\", that is what I wrote.\nTHE PRESIDENT:All right.\n2100a BY MR. DENNEY:", "speakers": [ "A.", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2623, "page_number": "2101", "date": "18 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-18", "text": "Q.Do you recall saying that Americans were never assigned to work in any of the airplane factories?\nA.Yes, I said that.\nMR. DENNEY:This is DocumentNOKW 364, which is a partial translation of the minutes of the Jaegerstab, held on 19 June 1944. The cover page, which is photostated here in German, which will be given to the Secretary General, bears the initials of the defendant.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Is this a new exhibit?\nMR. DENNEY:Yes, Your Honor. This will bear Exhibit Number 135 for identification, if Your Honor pleases. DocumentNOKW 364, a partial translation of the minutes of the Jaegerstab of a meeting held 19 Juno 1944. On the covering page there appear the initials of the defendant. Perhaps the Secretary General would be good enough to lot Mr. Blakeslee have the original so the cover page can be shown to the defendant. Just show it to him, Mr. Blakeslee.\n(A document was handed to the defendant).\nBY MR. DENNEY:\nQ.Witness, those are your initials, are they not?\nA.Yes, they are. They mean Engineer General. Those are my initials.\nQ.And when you personally received papers you put your initials on them did you not?\nA.If it was submitted to me, yes. As it was put on my desk, then I put my initials on it.\nQ.And you just put them on the outside page?\nA.Yes, as a proof that I passed it on to the agency which should receive these letters. I myself did not participate in that meeting. The next day I retired, and when these matters came into my office, I did not read them, paid I passed them on. That is all I did.", "speakers": [ "THE PRESIDENT", "Q.", "A.", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2624, "page_number": "", "date": "18 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-18", "text": "Q.The only part of this document that we are interested in is on page 41, Your Honors.\nWho was a Mr. Lange? L-A-N-G-E.\n2101a", "speakers": [ "Q." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2625, "page_number": "2102", "date": "18 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-18", "text": "A.He was a man from tho Speer Ministry, and he was detached to the Fighter Staff.\nQ.Do you know Schaede, S-C-H-A-E-D-E?\nA.Yes, he also was detached from the Armament Office, or rather, from the Technical Office, and was sent to me by Speer.\nQ.Did you know a man named Kleber, K-L-E-B-E-R?\nA.Yes, I think he was detached from the High Command of tho Army, or the Supreme Command of the Armed Forces, the OKW.\nQ.Starting at the bottom of page 41 with Lange speaking:\n\"This morning a representative of Dornier, that is, Oberpfaffenhofen, reported to me that 300 Americans who were put to work at the factory refused to work. They simply sat down, drank coffee, and ate corned beef, and could not be persuaded to work in spite of threats of shooting. Now, the question has been asked if we should not start a shooting action. That was turned down by higher authority, though. Thereupon tho 300 Americans were removed. Five hundred Russians are supposed to be coming. I am airing this question because this example can ultimately act infectiously on tho other prisoners of war. The matter should have been bettor brought out from tho beginning. Either these people should never have been put to work, or one should have persisted with severity.\n\"Schaede: I do not know what the procedure is. The easiest method would be that they get nothing to eat.\n\"Kleiber: I'll take the matter up.\n\"Schaede: The matter is clear. We can not shoot them. The Fuehrer refused to do that for fear of reprisals. However, we have had experience with another method. In the camp everything stops for four days. There are no parcels, no rations. This method is also used over there. We'll break them.\"\nApparently the war was so far along on 19 June 1944 -- some thirteen days after the initiation of the successful beachhead in tho Normandy Peninsula -- that even Hitler would not let them shoot Americans at that time, but Your Honors can see that these men, who were members of the same organization, the Jaegerstab, with which the defendant was connected, seriously considered shooting.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2626, "page_number": "2103", "date": "18 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-18", "text": "The only thing that prevented them from shooting was that they were afraid of reprisals, and instead of that they said, \"Well, we'll just stop everything for four days; don't give them any food. They'll have no rations,\" and one way or the other, that would break them.\nWhen did this come to your attention?", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2627, "page_number": "2104", "date": "18 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-18", "text": "AI heard that today for the first time, those contents.At that time I didn't read it, and nobody--After all, I resigned on the next day. The submission of the documents could only have taken place after I retired. Most probably I just passed it on to the agency which was concerned with this matter, and that was none of my own agencies. Ay note only means that I sent it back to an agency which was now out of my field of task, and the contents have been shown to me today for the first time.\nQThe Dornier factory was an airplane factory, was it not?\nAYes, Dornier was an aircraft factory.\nQThey speak here of Oberpfaffenhofen. That is down south west of Munich, is it not?\nAYes, that is somewhere near Munich. You see from this that the allotment of such workers did not pass via the GL, because I never heard anything of the fact that Americans were assigned work at any place.\nMR. DENNEY:The next document, if your Honors please, isNOKW-418, which is a partial translation of the minutes of a conference of the General Luftzeugmeister, presided over by the defendant on Tuesday, May 5, 1942.\nQDoes your diary show you were present at that meeting on that date?\nASecond of May? Second of May, yes.\nQFifth.\nAOh, the 5th of May you mean.\nQOf 1942.NOKW 418\nAYes, there was a conference of the GL.\nQDo you remember what you talked about there?\nANo, I can't remember that.\nQYou do not have any notes that would indicate it?", "speakers": [ "A", "MR. DENNEY", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2628, "page_number": "2105", "date": "18 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-18", "text": "ANo, just the fact, I just know the fact there was such a conference.\nMR. DENNEY:If your Honors please, we offer this as Exhibit 136 for identification, being documentNOKW-418, partial translation of a conference presided over by the defendant on 5 May 1942.\nQDid you know a man named Alpers, A-l-p-e-r-s?\nAYes, I did.\nQThat did he do?\nAHe was in the technical office and he dealt with the questions of procurement of airplanes. That is the airplane without the motor and without equipment.\nQCan you look at the cover page there and see whether or not you initialed this?\nAYes, I can.\nMR. DENNEY:Perhaps you had better let him hold on there for a moment. You can go over and sit down if you want to.\nQYou note on the first page there that Alpers says, \"The reason given is shortage of labor. And in fact there are 2,000 men licking at Heinkel-Oranienburg.\" And then you said, \"As far as the French are concerned, 60,000 of the ones that we had been promised are still missing.\" How many Frenchmen had you been promised?\nA.Well, at the present moment I could not tell you that. I didn't even find the spot so far. Yes, I couldn't tell you what was said at that time, what they promised us at that time.\nQI am interpolating, \"40,000 are still missing.\" So at least you had 20,000 Frenchmen then, didn't you?\nA.I think it says 2,000 here.", "speakers": [ "A", "A.", "MR. DENNEY", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2629, "page_number": "2106", "date": "18 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-18", "text": "QThere is an interpolation after the first sentence of your speech or your remarks.\nASomebody made an interpolation at that time, but I didn't say that.\nQOh, no, you said 60,000 were missing.\nAYes, that is what I said.\nQSomebody else said, no, it is only 40,000, and then you go on to say, \"If we get these men,\" the 40,000 who are missing, \"I would assign 2,000 to Heinkel-Oranienburg.\"\nAYes, I planned that.\nQIt is what you said, isn't if?\nAI couldn't tell you that I said it.\nQThen a man named Fridag, who was Fridag?\nAFridag was a man who belonged to the main committee for airplane bodies. That was the organization which came from the total armament industry which was organized by Speer.\nQFridag said, \"The French become worse and worse, I threw out 80 of them who will be sent to concentration camps in Russia. They refused to work. The French say at 4 o'clock! \"I won't work another hour,\" and you cannot make them work another hour. This happened four weeks ago all of a sudden, when the first bombing attack on Paris took place, whilst before that the French were the best people.\" What did you do when Fridag told you he was sending people to concentration camps in Russia?\nAI haven't taken any steps at ail after that.\nQThen you said, \"We were told at Oranienburg that they were good as long as they don't get spoiled by our German people.\" Then Fridag said, \"It happened here after we got the French from Messerschmitt, according to the French they got a warm meal twice a day there and had their laundry done. We cannot do either. We don't have a warm meal twice a day either.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2630, "page_number": "2107", "date": "18 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-18", "text": "At Messerschmitt the living conditions were better.\" And then you said, \"Gablenz--\" Was that your friend, General Von Gablenz?\nAYes, that was the chief of the planning office.\nQ \"I want you to get in touch with Reinecke concerning these French.\" Who was Reinecke, the general in charge of prisoners of war?\nAWell, I couldn't tell you that now.After all Reinecke was not personally in charge of the PW's. He had a general there. I couldn't just remember that name now, but I have to read it through. I am not quite in the atmosphere yet. I don't know what it is.\nQWell, anyway, if you told Gablenz to get in touch with Reinecke, you said, \"I demand that if the people refuse to work-\nAWell, I can't remember that now. I don't know that.\nQYou said, \"I demand if the people refuse to work they immediately be placed against the wall and shot before all the other workers.\" You were suggesting rather stringent measures pretty early, weren't you, May 1942?\nAI cannot remember anything of the kind, and I cannot imagine either that that has been told in that form.\nQThen you say, \"I ask you to get in touch with the Reich Fuehrer SS and to ask him to discuss the matter with the Fuehrer. Now is the right time, unless we do something effective now, the others will become bothersome. I ask that their being sent to concentration camps be taken into consideration too. I will tell you afterwards how you should act in such a matter.\"", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2631, "page_number": "", "date": "18 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-18", "text": "AI think there must have been something mixed up. If you read the next paragraph you'll see that also.\nQYou were thinking about sending people to concentration camps in May of 1942, weren't you?\nAI doubt it very strongly, that I said that. If you read, the next paragraph you see that something must have got mixed up in the minutes there.\nQ.Well, there's certainly nothing mixed up as far as I've read in this speech of yours. You're telling your good, friend Gablenz to see Reinecke, He, Reinecke, a general in the army, who is head of the prisoners of war, and you're also telling him to get in touch with Himmler and asking him to get in touch with Hitler. You know all these people.\nAMay I read the next paragraph, please?\nQCertainly; read the next paragraph.\nA \"So I do not agree. You should make another proposal. At the beginning you can not expect more after all.\" That shows clearly that this passage has become separated from its context and something quite different must have been involved. Furthermore, I could never have recommended to Gablenz to talk with Himmler, because these two were mortal enemies.\nQYes, I realize that everybody was a mortal enemy of everybody else in the Third Reich, but, from your notes, which you've initialed, it says that you told Gablenz to get in touch with Reinecke to get in touch with Himmler and ask him to speak to Hitler; there's certainly no confusion as far as that goes.\nAYes; my initials have nothing to do with that, because the contents were not read and were not checked either, because that was an excerpt from some--extensive document.\nQYou presided over the meeting, didn't you?\nAYes; I was.\nQYou were the General Flugzeugmeister in May 1942?\nAYes, I was.\nQWell, let's go on a little farther in it. Now, down on page 392 of the original, you see a photostatic copy of your initials at the bottom there? 2108", "speakers": [ "A", "Q.", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2632, "page_number": "2109", "date": "18 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-18", "text": "AOn 392, isn't it? Yes, I think that is the case. It seems like it.\nQAnd if you turn over the page, do you see, perhaps one or two pages, do you see a signature of Gablenz's, at the bottom?\nAYes, I do.\nQSo Gablenz wrote something that went on here?\nAYes, it's signed Gablenz. Then, in my own handwriting, above, \"To my files\", then Speer -- that would be on page 394.\nQYes; and that has to do with the entry of-Gablenz wrote a note on 18 May which you received on 19 May, didn't he?\nAI can't read the date which is after my name. The letter is the letter of the 13th of May by Gablenz. It's dated 13th of May, at least. But my own reception date I can not read.\nQWell, you see point six in Gablenz's note? This is on page 392, the same page that your initials are on.\nAI just talked of another page now. I understood \"394\".\nQNow, will you look back to 392, please?\nAYes.\nQDo you see your initials on 392, up to the right?\nAYes; I do.\nQAnd the date, 19/5, which means 19 May, appears after that, doesn't it?\nAYes.\nQAnd over to the left, below that, appears \"Berlin, 18 May 1942\"?\nAYes, I see that.\nQNow, will you turn over to point 6 of Gablenz's note to you, which is still on page 392?\nA.Yes, let's do that.\nQNow, point 6 has to do with -- \"For Heinkel-Oranienburg the 2,000 workers are brought in as follows: 400 Russian Women\", after that, the notation, \"already arrived.\" Then, below that, \"47 Czech Women (already arrived\". Furthermore in accordance with main plan No. 1, 300 Poles (arrival to be expected on 19.5.42\", which is the 19th of May, \"and from the Sauckel Action)\", and, below that,\" 400 Frenchmen (from unoccupied France)\", and, below that, \"400 Dutchmen (Metal workers).\" Now, what was the \"SauckelAction\"", "speakers": [ "A", "A.", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2633, "page_number": "2110", "date": "18 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-18", "text": "AI couldn't tell you that in detail. One of the Sauckel-Actions, I suppose, was known under that particular name at that time, because, after all, all the other workers were also supplied by Sauckel. I suppose that was shortly after Sauckel had received his assignment, and there were still action in progress originating from his predecessor, and I think his name was Syrup. He was subordinate to Minister Selte, Labor Minister, and Sauckel, the newcomer, now had arrived and he just started his own actions, that's the way I suppose it was.\nQNow, these Czech women--how many other plants did you employ Czech women in?\nAI don't think that they are Czechoslovakian women; I think they are male workers. The Russians, above--those are female workers, otherwise it would read \"Tschechinnen\", which means Czechoslovakian female workers.\nQWell then, in how many plants did you employ Czechs?\nAI couldn't tell you at the moment. I myself didn't make them work there.\nQNow you were getting in some Poles for Oranienburg or the Heinkel plant.\nAYes; it only stated that they are supposed to be about to come.\nQThey were expected on the day that you made this note on this, were they not?\nAThat was possible, that they were to come.\nAAnd the Dutch, where else did you employ Dutch workers?\nAI couldn't tell you that, because they weren't sent in there by our officers, because this here is only an information we received. I suppose that the agencies of the industry complained about the lacking workers in Heinkel Oranienburg and that then our agencies investigated the matter, whether these workers come or would not come. In one of these conferences at my offices this subject was then discussed, because I there made reference to it at the top of the letter, reference to the conference on the 5th of May, and the Planning Office as Statistical Agency reports here the information which it probably had 2110A requested from Sauckel, and according to which 400 Russian women had been assigned, 47 Czechoslovakian, and then, it continues, what is to come-those are only intentions of Sauckel and he now is forwarding this information.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2635, "page_number": "2111", "date": "18 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-18", "text": "But for the GL, it became apparent from that Heinkel actually could fulfill the contract he had taken upon himself, provided that the promised workers actually arrived. And that was the task of this agency of the Planning Office, to establish whether the workers promised to the industries by Sauckel and reported as having been supplied, really had arrived.\nQNow, these Poles that were brought in by a Sauckel-Action, the Frank-Decree of 21--. Withdrawn. Now, you know, below that, it says:\n\"The remaining 453 workers are to be dispatched as soon as new Sauckel contingents are released.\"\nAYes; I see that.\nQAnd at the bottom, before Gablenz's signature, you will note that there are some figures over in the left-hand column, \"11,651--1,500--13,151\"; do you know what those meant?\nAI assume that this was an addition of the figures at the right, now that is a matter which is not, if you allow me, I'll just read it a little bit. That is only a notation for our information, sent by Gablenz, according to which other people, for instance, the Plenipotentiary for Chemistry, which is just listed here and the B.F.M., the meaning of which I do not know had received workers' and I noted Speer in order to ask Speer who had to keep himself informed about these matters via the Armament Inspectorate, and to tell him that we wouldn't receive enough workers while other instances here were actually receiving these supplies, but in no event the workers listed here were meant for the armament industry of the Luftwaffe.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2636, "page_number": "2112", "date": "18 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-18", "text": "QDo you recall where you were on 27 May 1942?\nAAt that time I was in Berlin.\nQDo you have a Generalluftzeugmeister meeting on that day?\nAYes, we had.\nMR. DENNEY:If Your Honors please, this is DocumentNOKW-407, which we will offer as Exhibit 137 for identification, being an excerpt from the Generalluftzeugmeister conference of 27 May 1942. The first page has been appended in order that the initials of the defendant on these might appear.\nQShow it to the defendant please, and I will ask him, are these your initials which appear at the top of the first page, which I believe is 7-763.\nAYes, M.E., that's on page 763.\nQAnd you put those on there?\nAI should think so, yes. Of course, I couldn't tell you that exactly.\nQWell, doesn't it say Z.M. above it?\nAI couldn't read that. Z.M.--no, I can't really see it.\nQWell, you don't question that these are your initials, do you? Doesn't it say \"to my files\" above your initials?\nMR. DENNEY:Perhaps we could pull up the blind behind him, Colonel.\nAI cannot read it exactly on this copy.\nQ well, it's not on that page. It's on the first page.\nAYes, on the first page. Yes, now with this light we can see it.4 It's \"to my files\".\nAAnd you wrote it on there and put your initials under it, Didn't you?\nAYes, I did.\n7 All right. There is only one short quotation here which appears on page 798, which is page 36 of the original, von Gablenz speaking.", "speakers": [ "A", "MR. DENNEY", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2637, "page_number": "2113", "date": "16 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-16", "text": "He says: \"Yesterday the first---(blank) has exploded in France, at the Arade Plant, an explosive, a float, but no damage has been done.\"\nThen the defendant speaking; \"What measures have been taken in consequence? I want to have a report on what has been done, how many people have been shot and how many hanged? If that guy cannot be found today fifty men should be selected and if I were you I would hang three or four of them whether they are guilty or not. It is the only way.\" Do you recall saying that?\nANo, I cannot recall saying that. But if any steps had been taken, I certainly would recall it.\nDR. BERGOLD:Kay it please the Tribunal, I would like to request Mr. Denney to submit the whole of this report. I suppose that witnesses are present whom we could hear today still and who could confirm whether come steps had been taken or not. I suppose, for instance, that it might have been that General Verwald was attending that conference. From such a small action you cannot see enough.\nMR. DENNEY:We will be glad to give Dr. Bergold the entire meeting.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Can that document be furnished during the recess, do you think? Is it immediately available?\nMr. Denney: I don't know, your Honor. I will endeavor to get it during the recess for him.\nJUDGE PHILLIPS:On the outside of the document here it purports to show that the defendant presided over the meeting on May 27, 1942, at 9:00 a.m.\nDid you preside over this meeting?\nTHE WITNESS:Yes, if I attended these meetings of the GL, I always was the senior official and I always presided over the meeting.", "speakers": [ "THE WITNESS", "JUDGE PHILLIPS", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "MR. DENNEY", "A" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2638, "page_number": "2114", "date": "18 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-18", "text": "JUDGE PHILLIPS:I just wanted to know if you presided ever this meeting?\nTHE WITNESS:If I attended the meeting, then I certainly presided. I couldn't say that up to now, because I have no document submitted to me to that effect.\nJUDGE PHILLIPS:Did you attend the meeting?\nTHE WITNESS:I suppose so, yes, yes.\nQ (By Mr. Denney) The next document is HOKW-406, which consists of the covering page and one page of a meeting of 7 July 1942 presided over by the defendant, and this is offered as Exhibit Number 138 for identification.\nOn page 1392 of the original, who was the man named Toennes?\nA.I am sorry; I didn't understand the name.\nQ. (Spelling) T-o-e-n-n-e-s or perhaps T-h-o-e-n-n-e-s.\nA.I couldn't tell you that.\nQWell, the last three sentences day: \"If that does not succeed, then I intend to fill the now Heinkel Plant in the East entirely with Frenchmen brought down there by force. If they don't work in France, they may work as prisoners in Poland, after all we have to remember that it is we and not the French who have won the war.\"\nWhere was your now Heinkel Plant in the East?\nAI couldn't tell you that either at the moment. There was an intention to establish a Heinkel Plant in the East, but as far as I knew, it has never been opened.\nDR BERGOLD:May it please your Honors, I make two requests. First of all, Mr. Milch should be supplied with a copy also because it is very difficult as the names are mispronounced, and in this way there can be a false testimony. Second, here again I would like to have the original in order that I may be able to check whether Vorwald, the only witness still present, was attending that meeting, and in order to be able to establish whether or not Vorwald can testify in this regard.", "speakers": [ "THE WITNESS", "JUDGE PHILLIPS", "A.", "DR BERGOLD", "Q", "A" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2639, "page_number": "2115", "date": "18 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-18", "text": "MR. DENNEY:We will be glad to furnish Dr. Bergold with photostatic copies of the originals. The originals we are unable to furnish him because we don't have them. The originals are in the Air Ministry of the Royal Air Force in London.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Well, a photostatic copy is just as good.\nDR. BERGOLD:Very well.\nQ (By Mr. Denney) The next document isNOKW-408, which is a report of Generalluftzeugmeister conference presided over by the defendant on 28 July 1942.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Mr. Denney, just a second.\nJUDGE PHILLIPS:Mr. Denney, there is a long paragraph here, and I would suggest that you read the whole paragraph to the witness, and possibly that would refresh his recollection as to what took place at the meeting and whether or not this was said.\nQ (By Mr. Denney) Document 406, this is an excerpt from page 1392 of the original ofNOKW-406, Exhibit 138 for identification, a meeting of 7 July 1942, in which you were speaking about an engine. You said: \"I do not like the engine. I have inspected it and for the time being, anyhow, I shall not take the 177 plane as a traveling plane. With regard to the output of Prague I want to say this: Of course, one must recognize good output even of a foreigner. On the other hand, as far as the French are concerned, something must be done now. Gablenz, ring up Toennes and tell him that this is a crazy situation. However, we would still try first to arrange it in a friendly way through Toennes. If that does not succeed, then I intend to fill the new Heinkel Plant in the East entirely with Frenchmen brought down there by force. If they don't work in France, they may work as prisoners in Poland.", "speakers": [ "THE PRESIDENT", "JUDGE PHILLIPS", "DR. BERGOLD", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2640, "page_number": "2116", "date": "18 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-18", "text": "After all we have to remember that it is we and not the French who have won the war.\"\nDoes that recall to you whether or not--\nANo, I cannot recall it, but I might be able to clarify the matter. There was one plant in France, I still remember that, which always was in contrast with the others because its output was so very bad. These were the protected factories, Speer plants, which we have mentioned so often, and most probably this was again a question of bringing the workers, who, at that time were working there and who were released prisoners of war, that those PW's should be taken back into Germany. In the meantime I remember now that there was an intention at a certain time to open a Heinkel Plant in the East, but as I said before, the plan was not executed. After all, we had talked so much at that time that I simply cannot remember all the things that have been said.\nQ This is Exhibit 139 for identification, DocumentNOKW-408, a conference of the Generalluftzeugmeister held on 28 July 1942, presided over by the defendant. I would particularly direct the Court's attention to the statement on page 1646 of the original, which is on page 3 of the document, where he is speaking about production difficulties in France. The defendant talking: \"As far as we are concerned that is very difficult, but at the very moment when the deadline is passed for me, I shall say: now there is no more French production. The workers are sent on leave or taken away immediately for other work. The French always want the proportion 1 to 5, but they only reach 1 to 2 or 3. In reality they have very much more as we have received only old French junk. If we consider the actual output that we have received, then the proportion is not even 1 to 0 or 2, but exactly the contrary;", "speakers": [ "A" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2641, "page_number": "2117", "date": "18 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-18", "text": "5 to 1 in favor of the French. At the present time we receive six to nine planes from the French. I could well imagine that they get out 45 for themselves. I shall shut up the shop with a single stroke and have the workers and the machines come to Germany. If it does not work on a voluntary basis, then we do it by compulsory contracts. Perhaps I shall first give them a week to think it over. It is a fact that, on the whole, these people work in silent opposition. One cannot blame than for it either, it is true, but they should not have started the war.\"\nDo you recall that statement?\nAThe fact itself, I remember. I mean, the fact that we talked about those matters, and I even remember that the proportions 5 to 1 were the proportions which were supposed to exist, and that practically the proportion was 1 to 5 in favor of the French. And as I said before, there was a failure to act by certain agencies, and this matter simply could not be put in order. Thus the sense and the meaning of the protected factories was no longer existing for us if we couldn't change the situation. After a lot of hemming and hawing the situation changed, and thus the protected factories were maintained. I also say that after all, I cannot reproach the people if they use the factories for their own armament purposes for the armament purposes of the French government, but that it was not in the interests of Germany after all, and furthermore, France had declared war upon us. That's a fact.\nQYou spoke about compulsory contracts there. You say, \"If it does not work on a voluntary basis, then we do it by compulsory contracts.\"\nAThese details, of course, I cannot remember. I cannot say either what I imagined when I said that.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2642, "page_number": "2118", "date": "18 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-18", "text": "Q.Do you know what a compulsory contract is?\nA.First of all we ourselves could not conclude suck a contrast because this was just mere talk perhaps in order to exert a certain pressure that the situation in France should now change for the better. It could be supposed that everybody would talk about that. Perhaps many of the words spoken in these meetings are not rendered correctly. I wouldn't know what it meant when I said in a general way these people work \"through their teeth\". That has no meaning in German.\nQ.Back on Page 1645, a page ahead of the one about which you are talking, you say, \"It really is always the same story with that firm.\" You are speaking about the Dornier firm. \"The blame lies with the firm itself. The new supervising agent should be informed. I told admiral Lass that he should have them both come over to him from Friedrichshafen, as soon as the first complaints come in. I shall put those two, Schneider and Berger into a concentration camp for the duration of the war as soon as they make difficulties.\"\nDo you recall saying that?\nA.No, I cannot remember that. I can only repeat I didn't have any possibility of putting them into a concentration camp. That was just a mere expression of anger because somebody had failed in the armament.\nQ.You could get people out of concentration camps, couldn't you?\nA.Only if on certain occasions I had the possibility of obtaining them with the consent of the competent persons; but I also proved that during the war I had only a very slight contact with these agencies. I can assure you that I never brought anybody into a concentration camp. It is true that I got some people out of concentration camps; but I never got anybody into a concentration.\nQ.Whom did you have to see to get somebody out of a concentration camp?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2643, "page_number": "", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "A.Well, in peace-time in general I did that via Wolf; but some times I also got results via Goering's office because, after all, Goering was for a long time Prussian Prime Minister; and Generally I used that channel.\n2118a", "speakers": [ "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2644, "page_number": "2119", "date": "18 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-18", "text": "QDuring the war didn't you get people out of concentration camps?\nANo, I cannot remember that during the war I got people out of concentration camps. At least at the present moment I cannot remember one single instance; and the total situation should be investigated, in order to see what kind of failure occurred at that time. Also in all the other cases in question it became apparent that this kind of failure excited me beyond all bounds because I saw the general significance of the matter. Then, too, I was not so very careful with my words; and very often I went further than I wanted to go; but I didn't mean it that way. I can assure you that no one ever was punished and that no action ever followed that.\nEXAMINATION THE THE PRESIDENT:\nQ Did you say, \"If one cannot blame them for it either, it is true that they (meaning the French) should not have started the war\"? Did you say that?\nAYour Honor, I cannot recall it.\nQWhat did you say?\nAI just said, Your Honor, I cannot literally recall these words one by one; but these were expressions of strong emotion and excitement.\nQI understand. Did you think that was the fact?\nAAt that time, yes, because I knew at that time that it was France who had declared war upon us. The real connections and real background of the war became apparent to me much later.\nQBut it says here that you stated that France started the war. Never mind who declared war; but did you ever think that France started the war?\nANo, that was not my opinion.\nQThen it isn't your opinion now?\nANo, today my opinion is quite different, your Honor, because in the meantime I have received information that the complication with Poland, whence originated the war, were of an altogether different nature than those told by our propaganda at that time 2119A BY THE TRIBUNAL (JUDGE MUSMANNO):", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2646, "page_number": "2120", "date": "18 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-18", "text": "QWhen you made that statement you had in mind that France formally declared war on Germany; is that correct?\nAYes, that's what I meant.\nQWhat was your opinion as to who provoked the war between the United States and Germany? Which nation was the provoker in that instance?\nAGermany alone.After all, Germany had declared the war.\nQSo if Germany declared war against tho United States and France declared war against Germany, the more fact of the declaration of war does not really indicate who started the war.\nAThat is quite correct. It is rather the outward form which is expressed by the declaration of war. But if I may give a short commentary to the words of your Honor, at that time I was under the impression that the war between Germany and Poland had been caused--I mean not declared but caused--by Poland. At least cur German propaganda aimed at that. They gave us a lot of facts. At that time I had no occasion to look into tho real background of the matter. Therefore, I believed that the declaration of war by France was without any motive at that time, that is, because I didn't know that the actual beginning of this war, this actual beginning, was also Hitler's fault.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The translation, I think, should be \"without any justification\" instead of \"without any motive.\"\nTHE INTERPRETER:Without any motive.\nTHE PRESIDENT:That's right?\nTHE INTERPRETER:Motive, yes.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The Tribunal will be in recess.\nTHE MARSHAL:The Tribunal is in recess for fifteen minutes.\n(A recess was taken.)", "speakers": [ "THE INTERPRETER", "A", "THE PRESIDENT", "Q", "THE MARSHAL" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2647, "page_number": "2121", "date": "18 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-18", "text": "THE MARSHAL:The Tribunal is again in session.\nMR. DENNEY:May it please Your Honors, the next document isNOKW-409which will be exhibit No. 140 for identification.\nBY MR. DENNEY:\nQDo your records show that you attended a conference of the Generalluftzeugmeister on 4 August 1942?\nAYes, indeed. These discussions were twice a week.\nQIn a proposed excerpt of a meeting presided over by tho Defendant on 4 August 1942, who was a man named Geyer? G-e-y-e-r?\nAGeyer? He was a ministerial diligent from theAir Ministry. I think that is the man you mean. May I have a copy as well, please?\nQYes. On the outside of the cover page of that meeting appears a notation \"To my personal files,\" does it not?\nANo. My files -- I can't read what it says on the back, but I don't think it says \"personal files\" -- I don't believe, but it doesn't make any difference anyway.\nQWell, did you write what is on the outside there?\nAYes, I did.\nQNow a man named Geyer, whom you have identified -\nAYes, this Geyer who used to belong to the supply office.\nQIt says:\n\"In the West there is a danger of the French going on strike in the event of a British attack. In that case the whole of the engine supply would be severely handicapped.\" And then you said:\n\"In such a case I would ask to be appointed Military Commander myself. I would band the workers together and have fifty percent of them shot? I would them publish this fact and compel the other fifty percent to work by beatings if necessary. If they don't work, then they, too, will be shot. I would get the necessary replacement somehow. But I hope the Military Commander will do duty. I'm not worried about it. The word \"strike\" must never be used.", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "A", "MR. DENNEY", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2648, "page_number": "2122", "date": "18 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-18", "text": "For us there is only \"living or dying\", but not \"striking\". That goes for the educated man as well as for the worker, for the German as well as for the foreigner. The word \"strike\" means death for the man who used it.\"\nWas that you attitude as to the way to treat these workers in the event they refuse to work?\nA No, that was not my attitude. As it can be seen from the records of the Central Planning Board, in all cases like this one here, being a case in which I thought that the danger for Germany was to big, and I was very worried about it, and since this worry got me very cross, I used such strong words as soldiers usually do. I never meant it that way, and never was there an order given to that effect.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2649, "page_number": "2123", "date": "18 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-18", "text": "It is just one of those lyrical expressions which, were also used by other soldiers and by statesmen in other countries very often. As a matter of fact that was never my opinion nor my attitude nor my idea.\nQ.Excuse me. A little later in this same document, on page 1760 you state, \"In spite of all he has brought in quite a tidy number,\" speaking of Sauckel to whom Gablenz had referred earlier in the discussion, and you continued, \"Sauckel has brought ever 1.6 million people to Germany, 1.3 million from the East and the rest from other countries.\" That was in 1042, August, when you knew that Sauckel had brought over a million and a half people into Germany.\nA.I take it that is the way he reported it, yes. However, I don't believe it has any connection with what I mentioned before.\nQ.But you know in August 1942 he had brought 1,600,000 workers into Germany, didn't you?\nA.No, I didn't know that. However, I probably learned this assertion from some letter that was submitted to me. I learned that this had been assorted and at that time it was still a matter of doubt whether Sauckel's figures were correct or not. However, we did not see anything about it. because that is the question here, and that already struck us at that time, because we never would have discussed the question hadn't it struck us.\nQ.You say, \"In spite of all he has brought in quite a tidy number.\"\nA.Yes, according to what he asserted. I don't say it is a fact.\nQ.Where did you learn those figures?\nA.Unfortunately, I do not have the part that precedes this part here. However, I take it that somebody else mentioned such a figure, either at this conference here or outside of this conference.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2650, "page_number": "", "date": "18 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-18", "text": "Q. Now, you said just a moment ago that you got a letter or something that indicated these figures.\nA.Just a moment please, where did it say that?\nQ.No, that is what you said.\nA. No, I said here somebody else had mentioned it at this conference. This is only one page from the whole context as I have here. The preceding 2123(a) page is sixty-one pages ahead of this one.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2651, "page_number": "2124", "date": "18 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-18", "text": "In other words, there can't be any connection between the two, and therefore I assume this because the figure as such was not known to me.\nQ.Then below that Gablenz says, \"We should not be sorry if Sauckel not only took care of getting the workers but also of distributing then. That way we would fare better.\"\nA.Yes. Well, by that he means Sauckel assorts that he had brought in so many people; however, we would appreciate it if he could possibly take care of the distribution as well. That at least would mean something to us. However, there seems to be some sort of doubt here as far as Sauckel is concerned.\nMR. DENNEY: The next document, if your Honors please, isNOKW 412.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:Mr. Denney, before you reach this one, I would like to put a question to the witness.\nMR. DENNEY:Yes, your Honor.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:You state that you did not mean what you said there in language that was quite clear that you would have so many people shot if they failed to do certain thing.\nTHE WITNESS:No, I never thought that or even intended to do that.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:Curiosity consumes no as to what would happen if an officer inferior in rank to yours took you at your word and actually executed a number of these workers or prisoners of war. Would that officer then be punished?\nTHE WITNESS:No one was there who would have been in a position to do so. Apart from that all those who were under my orders knew me and my way of handling things.", "speakers": [ "THE WITNESS", "Q.", "A.", "MR. DENNEY", "JUDGE MUSMANNO" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2652, "page_number": "", "date": "18 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-18", "text": "They know exactly that I didn't mean it the way I said it, and apart from that they always laughed about my remarks if I ranted against the above mentioned.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:In other words the comment of the Field Marshall in a matter of this seriousness was really of no value?\nTHE WITNESS: Because the people knew that I get excited very easily about certain things, and these incidents here have been selected and sub 2124(a) mitted, of course, from every one of these meetings which took place twice a month, for instance from Flick's report and from some of the ether reports, maybe once or twice.", "speakers": [ "JUDGE MUSMANNO" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2653, "page_number": "", "date": "18 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-18", "text": "The nature of many of the reports which I received caused some of those outbursts or explosions, and then I used to fly into a rage as soldiers would, that is, I would just get mad, that is all. However, I never intended to carry out any of these threats and I spoke to my subordinates about this occasionally. They pointed out to me that I used such strong words. They knew exactly from my words that this was not meant seriously. They knew exactly that no suck order had been given and that no one over was punished at my instigation, not even then whom I perhaps would have been justified, if only for the very simple reason that I did not have the authority to punish.\nTHE PRESIDENT:You want to ask a question?\nJUDGE PHILLIPS:Mr. Denney read this paragraph to you, Exhibit 140. I understood you to say this, that the paragraph did not contain your attitude there, that you never gave suck an order, that when you were worried you sometimes used strong language as a soldier would. Didn't you say that?\nTHE WITNESS:Yes.\nJUDGE PHILLIPS:Well, now, whether you meant it or not, you did say these things, and by so doing you counselled and advised others under you at a meeting which you presided over to do suck things. Whether you meant it or not you did that, didn't you?\nTHE WITNESS:No, I never gave an order by using such words because my people spoke with me, and after all they implied from my words that I never meant them seriously. 2125", "speakers": [ "THE WITNESS", "JUDGE PHILLIPS", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2654, "page_number": "", "date": "18 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-18", "text": "JUDGE PHILLIPS:Didn't you say, \"I would hand the workers together and have fifty percent of then shot. I would then publish this fact and compel the other fifty percent to work by beating if necessary.\" Did you say that or not?\nTHE WITNESS:I do not remember to have said that. However, three days ago I believe I said that I never knew afterwards when I had such 2125(a) outbursts of rage because I had that rusk of blood to my skull owing to that injury I had, and I couldn't remember what I said at that particular moment.", "speakers": [ "THE WITNESS", "JUDGE PHILLIPS" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2655, "page_number": "2126", "date": "18 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-18", "text": "I just burst out in rage.\nJUDGE PHILLIPS:Well, if you did say that, you were advising and counselling others to do that, were you not?\nTHE WITNESS:No, that was not a counsel or an advice to any one, on the contrary. I was known for the fact that if someone had done suck a thing I would have intervened and taken care of the matter.", "speakers": [ "THE WITNESS", "JUDGE PHILLIPS" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2656, "page_number": "2127", "date": "18 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-18", "text": "Q. (By Hr. Denney) Did you attend a meeting of the General Luftzeugmeister on 18 August 1942?\nA.Yes, I did.\nQ.DocumentNOKW-412, which we offer as Prosecution's Exhibit No. 141 for identification, being a partial translation of an excerpt from the General Luftzeugmeister Conference of the 18th of August 1942. The defendant is speaking. \"As soon as the figures for August are ready I request an exact account for my report to the Reichsmarshall and also for the conferences which I want to hold with Sauckel and Spoor beforehand. This account is to show how the labor question has developed, how great the fluctuation is and which nationalities it involves, what real requests we now have to make in the different sectors in order to cover tho needs for specialists and for skilled and unskilled labor, low many of them are foreigners, etc. What happens to those who leave the industries. Are they being compelled to work elsewhere? Are they, as I proposed, under control in the camps supervised by the SS and considered as being in mild concentration camps or are these gentlemen allowed to remain outside and do as they please?\" You were referring to labor figures there, were you not?\nA.I an referring to various things here. I wanted to have a general synopsis with reference to the extraordinarily bad labor situation, and I wanted to got help from Goering because we did not get enough workers, and therefore I wished to discuss it with Spoor also --- hero I come to a special part which can be soon from the last few pages -namely that a part from the general labor question the fluctuation was also being discussed, and the term fluctuation includes also the slackers or shirkers. Those are people I wanted to have taken care of by the SS, namely these 2127 (a) people who are idling away their time and who do not wish to work, but also in the case of this question nothing ever was proposed to the higher-ups or instigated by us.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2658, "page_number": "2128", "date": "18 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-18", "text": "Q.You say here how many of them are foreigners?\nA.That applies to a compilation having the nature of a statistic, and I want to report to Goering on this statistic. These foreigners have nothing to do with the slackers I mentioned before.\nQ.Did they submit the report to you, which you request here?\nA.No, I can't recall that.\nQ.Well, you said that this was a very grave question, the trouble between the workers, and you were going to take it up with Goering, with Sauckel and Speer.\nA.Well, will I have to look it up, whether there had been a discussion with Goering with regard to this question. We have occasionally tried by telephone to obtain a definite date, however, we never succeeded in getting it.\nQ.You don't have any present recollection of having seen Goering about this?\nA.No, I don't.\nQ.Now, perhaps you can tell me what a mild concentration camp is?\nA.These were the camps mentioned before, whore people were sent to for a period of two months to be \"educated\" that is only slackers. At least these people aught to have been sent there. That camp was some kind of institution which according to information from the SS existed theme, however, we never sent such people to these camps.\nQ.How did you learn of these mild concentration camps?\nA.I know that at the Fuehrer headquarters once, at quite a large gathering, I believe Himmler was there himself -- it was said that the problem of the slackers had been solved because he took care that in his special camps, the supplementary rations over and above the normal rations were only given to the worker on condition that they achieve a normal output.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2659, "page_number": "2129", "date": "18 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-18", "text": "If they had mild concentration camps they must have had concentration Camps that were less mild.\nA.No, that has nothing whatsoever to do with that. That is just a term used here once with no significance whatever.\nQ.The only kind of concentration camps you knew about were mild?\nA.I repeat, I have only seen the concentration camp Dachau, in 1935. That is the only thing I know about a concentration camp, and the only thing I saw of a concentration camp in all that time.\nQ.You never heard about anybody being sent to one?\nA.Sent where?\nQ.To a concentration camp.\nA.Well, of course I knew as well as everyone else in Germany, that people were being sent to concentration camps. They had to be sent there.\nQ.What kind of people were in concentration camps?\nA.I cannot give you any information about that. I do not know that. I only Can say that of the people I have seen in 1935.\nQ.What kind of people did you see in 1935?\nA.Criminals, political prisoners from the SA, for the most part.\nQ.Did you see any Jewish people there?\nA.Yes, indeed. We saw one or two barracks with Jews. However, they also had long sentences. However, I particularly emphasized that I had not seen everything, and do not believe that in 1935 anyone had been locked up yet because of their race or belief, and I assume that this occurred much later as a natter of fact.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2660, "page_number": "2130", "date": "18 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-18", "text": "Q.You said in 1935 you saw two barracks of Jewish people?\nA.I said one or two. I can't remember very well.\nQ.Let's say one then. They were segregated, the Jewish people at Dachau, in 1935, weren't they?\nA.I think so, yes, they were segregated into groups according to the nature of their crimes. That Was as far as I can recall.\nQ.You knew throughout the war the only people who were in concentration camps were political offenders similar to the members of the SA who probably were put there as a result of the putsch involving herr Rhoen, or continual offenders, or were criminals.\nA.I believe that they were segregated according to the type of crime. I didn't say that two barracks were only full of Jews, but I said that there were also Jews in one or two barracks.\nQ.Well, will you answer my question then? As far as you knew to the end of the War the only people who were in concentration camps were political offenders similar to the people they had there following the Rhoen putsch or people who had committed offenses similar to that or they were criminals who had committed very serious crimes?\nA.I can again repeat only that I cannot toll you, that I did not see it, and that nobody ever told me who in particular had been sent to these camps.\nQ.Did nothing ever come to your attention before the end of the war which gave you any information as to who was being sent to concentration camps?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2661, "page_number": "2131", "date": "18 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-18", "text": "A.With reference to such questions many things were said but nothing was authentical, nothing was clear. Nothing but rumors.\nQ.Well, perhaps we Can pass to another document. The next document is--were you at a meeting of the General Lufzeugmeister on 26 August 1942?\nA.No, I was not, at least not according to ray notes.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2662, "page_number": "2132", "date": "18 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-18", "text": "Q.Your notes could be wrong.\nA.Of course, it is quite possible that I have omitted something. I couldn't swear to that. However, on that day I noted many other things which enable me to recall these events quite clearly.\nQ.This is an excerpt from the conference of the Generalluftzeugmeister on 16 august 1942 which the original records show was presided over by the defendant. It is DocumentNOKW-416, and it is offered as Exhibit Number 142 for identification. On the first page Frydag is speaking; \"Another Important consideration is the letter which you yourself have signed, Field Marshal, dealing with the expiration of the labor contracts of the foreign workers. The investigation has shown that, for instance, the firm Junkers Aero Engines loses 38% of its foreign labor on account of the expiration of the labor contracts, while the IFA loses 34%, the Hakenfelde plant for aeronautic instruments 42%, the United German Metal works 17%, Arado 18%, DaimlerBenz, Genshagen 26% and Heinkel, Rostock 10%.\"\nAnd then you spoke: \"The Reichsmarshal wanted to bind these people by law at one time; that was one idea. The Fuehrer's plan would be more favorable. Re wishes that these workers be gradually all replaced by Russians for whom there is no longer such a thing as expiration of contracts.\"\nThen someone interpolated, \"But there is a certain transition period.\"\nThen Brueckner spoke up: \"You, Field Marshal, have yourself put your signature to this matter. The contracts are to be extended until 1 October 1943. I hope that it will be done.\" Do you recall that?\nA.I remember the fact itself. I remember that I had made a metion, through Goering in this particular case, that from that source negotiations should be taken up with all those laborers whose contracts would have expired. You can see from the words mentioned by Brueckner how important this question is and he mentions our request to extend the contract at least until the 1st of October, and Brueckner says that he hopes that it could be done.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2663, "page_number": "", "date": "18 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-18", "text": "2132 (a)", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2664, "page_number": "2133", "date": "18 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-18", "text": "Q.The extension in all cases was, of course, voluntary?\nA.It should be voluntary, yes, because the fact that the contracts expired and the ensuing calamity sufficiently proves that the contracts in question wore voluntary contracts That is, if the contracts were initially entered into voluntarily so far as the workers were concerned, they were voluntary?\nA.Yes, otherwise they couldn't possibly terminate their contract it says explicitly here by expiration of labor contracts.\" They were voluntary contracts which at the time as far as I can remember, had boon signed for a period of six months. That was a very short time because the people in question had to be trained at first and then we had the bad luck that at a given date a particularly large number of the workers terminated their contracts and it was quite natural therefore that we could only suggest that these contracts be renewed or extended.\nConsequently we expressed the desire for a minimum length of time as of 1 October. From Brueckner words, \"I hope that it will be done,\" can be seen clearly that this was not for us to decide, but that he just hoped that this matter will be dealt with favourably by the competent agencies.\nQ.Well, then we go on. Frydag says: \"An altogether false picture is given by the file note according to which 403,000 workers have been assigned while in reality we have only an asset of 60,000. That is another piece of luck for if we had not got the 90,000 FL workers free, in spite of the assignment we would still have a deficit of 30,000 for the entire Luftwaffe.\"", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2665, "page_number": "", "date": "18 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-18", "text": "And then you said \"it is true that a number of these people have been drafted Into the armed forces, but I consider the others I'll arrive all the same at a monthly total of about 30,000 who slack and move around from job to job. According to the suggestions of the Relchsmarshal these people are to come under the c care of Himmler and are to be handled quite severely there. What has been done so far in this regar? Brueckner you know about this matter, don't you?\"\n2133a Brueckner:", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2666, "page_number": "2134", "date": "18 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-18", "text": "\"Yes.\"\n\"You do not seem to be informed quite correctly. Some time ago we were quite irritated about the fact that so many workers move about from one factory to another, most of them are anti-social elements who do not like to work and whom the firms are possibly glad to get rid of because they do nothing but complain and grumble, do no proper work, are constantly late, shirk work where they can, pretend to be sick, etc. These people were supposed to be handled more severely and about a year ago the Reichsmarshal issued an order and gave the Ministry of Labor the job of dealing with this matter firmly. Then the Ministry of Labor issued an explanatory order which was nothing but a sabotage of the order and tie desire oppressed by the Reichsmarshal, I reported to the Reichsmarshal in the very words which I have just used -- that in this case his will was clearly being sabotaged by some lawyers or other poor fellows and that I asked him to take measures against it. He told me that he would talk the matter over with Himmler. That is, I had suggested to him that this matter could only be settled with the help of Himmler's organization. The armed forces are not in a position to do it. The suggestion had been made that the armed forces should take care of these people in camps but these workers are not ready for that. They have not been condemned and in no way violate the existing laws, but act only against their country which certainly does not yet come within the sphere of the old legal nonsense. That is why Himmler should get these people into his clutches because he can treat them inside the low. My suggestion was that the people should be put into the camps or, in part, just get numbers. The person involved could have a passport in man has been ill, or late thirty times in one month, then the SD takes him along and gives him a job in which he has to work fourteen hours a day and where he is treated in the way he deserves if he is not willing.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2667, "page_number": "2135", "date": "18 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-18", "text": "The Reichsmarshal has approved this suggestion. Nevertheless I have not yet seen anything of the kind being carried out.\"\nBrueckner; \"I know that such labor camps have been established.\"\nMilch: \"In that case I want you to tell me exactly during the next conference where these camps have been established, who is in charge of them, and how do we get these honorable gentlemen who do not want to work into them. In the Luftwaffe alone there were 30,000 last month. If we take the same figure for the army we have already 60,000. If you look at the total loss Germany has about 100,000 of these anti-social creatures who run around free, doing their duty neither at the front nor as workers at home. It is a simple matter to have these people t ken care of somehow by the SD. It has only got to be taken in hand. I want to have a report on it as soon as possible. Otherwise I will talk to Himmler about it myself and see that this matter is taken very firmly in hand. I see in these people the greatest danger for the home front.\"\nDo yon recall saying that?\nA.Not those actual words, and here again the experiment counts. However, I believe that in no place was it expressed in such a clear manner what kind of people these people were, and I believe that there is no other country in the World which, with reference to its own citizens who commit sabotage actions during the war, would not hold at them very firmly, because not only the loss of laborers is concerned here and to be regarded, but also the very bed example which these people give and this above all, the change of the good morale of millions of good people.\nI repeat that they are criminals and pimps, and moreover as far as the rest are concerned, this order Was not addressed to us but to the Labor Ministry, as I found out later on; namely, by Goering himself.", "speakers": [ "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2668, "page_number": "", "date": "18 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-18", "text": "And the Labor Ministry didn't do anything about this natter but they suggested to us 2135 (a) armament office, that we should institute camps on our own.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2669, "page_number": "2136", "date": "18 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-18", "text": "That was not our \"business, however, because the Labor Ministry had to assign the people and also to care for them. That they wanted to drag us into this matter was wrong.\nQ.Well now, you told. Brueckner to get you a list of how many of these camps had been established and who was in charge of them and how the people got into them. Brueckner told you that he knew the camps had been established.\nA.I think that this was never put into execution because I told Brueckner later on, \"This is none of our concern. We will not have anything to do with it.\"\nQ.When did you tell him that, right after the meeting?\nA.I think so because I know that this was never submitted to me and that we did not deal with that question apart from the fact that we used a lot of strong words about it. The question of the slackers, according to my recollection, went on until we gave it up later on because we, on our part, could not do anything about it.\nQ.Did you tell the rest of the people at the meeting to nay no attention to this?\nA.The other people had nothing whatsoever to do with it,and they did not receive any order to do so.\nQ.What did the camps do then? Did they just sit around until the end of the war?\nA.Yes, well, they had to discuss other things. This was just on the side. The main purposes were material questions, execution of our material program, or of our research program and to discuss these points.\nQ.Well, what about these camps that had been set up that you asked Brueckner to investigate?\nA.No such camp was ever instituted with us.\nQ.Now, over on page 2102, it seems you have a little bit different idea about the extension of these contracts - page 6 of the original, your Honors.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2670, "page_number": "2137", "date": "18 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-18", "text": "You are speaking again and you say here: \"You must get as many Russians in as possible. For a time compulsory extension of the contracts may help. But they cannot all be forced, for instance, it is not possible with Italians, Hungarians, and Rumanians. Furthermore, it has to be considered that the workers become unwilling and bad tempered when they are forced. Fundamentally you have always to reckon on an additional 20% in this distribution which includes altogether 43% foreigners, on account of the poor wartime capacity of these people. The desired output, after all, is based on the normal working power of a German. You have to add 20% in order to achieve the same result.\"\nCeyka: \"We could always lower their rations in their home countries a bit; then they would have more incentive to work here.\"\nAnd then you speak: \"Yes, they must be better off here than at home. Verwald, you will clear up the matter of the 177 with Heinkel.\"\nVorwald: \"Yes.\"\n\"When should the planes get to Oranienburg?\"\nVorwald: \"In September.\"\n\"Tell these gentlemen that I will accept no excuse if the planes do not come in September.\"\nFrydag says: \"He can make it by September, with the people from the concentration camps.\"\nAnd then you say: \"He could have had the people from the concentration camps half a year ago. That goes to prove how sleepy even normally active firms are if something new is involved.\"\nApparently you were going to extend the contracts of the Russians compulsorily. You weren't going to give then an opportunity if they, in fact, had any contracts.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2671, "page_number": "2138", "date": "18 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-18", "text": "Well, the question of understanding contracts was not in my hands. be had nothing to do with the question, and this whole muddle here can be seen from the fact that I said that they were better off here than they were at home. This docs not seem to have been taken down in shorthand correctly up here.\nQWell, Hungarians, Rumanians and Italians were your Allies, at that time, were they not?\nAYes, and they were also less workers, that is to say, they were volunteers.\nQAnd the Russians, of course, were not your Allies as the result of your attacking them in 1911, June, is that right?\nAYes, Germany had attacked Russia.\nQBut the Russians you could keep over there, but you did not want to with the Italians, Hungarians and Rumanians?\nAWe could not do anything at all with all of them in any case, because we had nothing to do with it, and it was passed on to quite different agencies.\nQBut you had people from the various agencies who were attending these meetings of the General Luftzeugmeister, didn't you?\nAI did not quite understand. No, nobody was there from these other agencies, but contrary to the Central Planning Board, that was an internal matter within my organization, or within my office.\nQYou presided at those meetings of which we read today, didn't you.\nAYes, sure, these GL meetings, yes. I was the GL at the time.\nQAnd these people, some of them went back to the factory where you had people working, didn't they?\nANo, none of those from the factory were there with the exception of Frydag, who was mentioned here, who belonged to my Planning Committee. However, he had no power to contract. This contract went through Sauckel\nQBut you at this meeting were saying that the contract should be extended compulsorily, if necessary?", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2672, "page_number": "2139", "date": "18 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-18", "text": "AIt is quite possible this was a misprint here. It is in contradiction to the statement given later on, and it also contradicts what I said before a few cages prior to this.\nQIn a few pages before you just said that we'd do it voluntarily, that is what you got down?\nAThat is what I said, to compel them to work, and I say I probably did not say that word \"Schwerezwald.\" It was probably misspelled here, or miswritten.\nQYou did not want to compel anybody to work, did you?\nAI only wanted to have people who would carry out ourArmaments, and the other organizations than ours were responsible, namely, to see to it that we had the workers, but as there were constant failures, we were also worried about this problem. However, we could not interfere, because we had nothing to do with it.\nMR. DENNEY:I think that is enough on that document, Your Honor, please.\nQYour record shows that you were present at the meeting on 3 September 1942?\nAAs to the former meeting I would like to say that there must be some certain mistake s to the date, because on the 26th of August I don't believe these were suitable times for the GL meeting. On that day Gablenz who had accidentally died, was buried and he received a State burial, and I was the one who had to road the funeral oration, and then later on I left the place where the State burial took place, and I went to the cemetery, which was quite a long way from there. It is quite possible that there was a meeting on 28th August. There was a meeting on 28 August, and also on the 26 August. However, I doubt very much if it took place on the 26 August. Of course, it could be some sort of mistake in the shorthand report.\nQYes, and we could be mistaken in our translation. However, we shall sec what we can do to correct the date, but you have no quarrel with the contents?", "speakers": [ "A", "MR. DENNEY", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2673, "page_number": "2140", "date": "13 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-13", "text": "AYes, as I have stated. I believe the date was playing a part in it, but I want to state that for the accuracy of my report, because in that I remember it so very well, and I do remember at that time I believe it said 11:00 o'clock, didn't it, and I was busy due to the burial. In other words, this is not the day for sure this time. May I ask you for a new date, please, Mr. Denney?\nQThe new date is September 3, 1942.\nAYes.\nMR. DENNEY: ill you just let me see that document, please. I just want to look at it for a moment, and I shall return it immediately. The original record is 26th, Your Honor. Maybe a typewritten error, and this is the photostatic copy of the original which was taken from the files in the British Air Ministry.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The defendant recognized the occasion, anyway.\nMR. DENNEY:Perhaps before this next document we can adjourn before we get started on it, your Honor. We are still getting it into shape, Your Honor.\nTHE PRESIDENT:All right.\nDR. BERGOLD:I have one request to make, Your Honor, namely, I would appreciate if this tribunal would order that the witnesses, General. Vorwald and General Reinecke, who are still at Numberg, may remain here at my disposal, so that the same tiring does not happen which occurred to General Roeder, when some kind of a magician simply snatched him away from me.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Very well, the Marshal will be directed to inform the jail authorities that these two witnesses are not to be sent away until the conclusion of this trial.\nMR. DENNEY:I trust that Dr. Bergold is not implying that the Prosecution has any magicians.", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "MR. DENNEY", "Q", "A" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2674, "page_number": "2141", "date": "18 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-18", "text": "THE PRESIDENT:Well, Dr. Bergold is speaking from a painful experience. He went through the experience of losing a witness entirely, who later turned up at a far distant point, and than could not be even located there.\nMR. DENNEY:Yes, but I have been called many things but never a magician.\nTHE PRESIDENT:We will adjourn on that line. This Tribunalis in recess until tomorrow morning.\nTHE MARSHAL:This Tribunal is in recess until 093 0 tomorrow morning.\n(The Tribunal adjourns until 19 Milch 1947, at 0930 hours)", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "MR. DENNEY", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2675, "page_number": "2142", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "Official Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America, against Erhard Milch, defendant, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 19 March 1947 , 0930-1700, Justice Toms, presiding.\nTHE MARSHALL:All persons in the Court, please fine your seats. The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal No. II. Military Tribunal No. II is now in session. God save the United Stares of America and this Honorable Tribunal.\nThere will be order in the Court.\nMR. DENNEY:We've delivering to Dr. Bergold the photostatic copies of the complete minutes which he requested yesterday. I'd ask that the doctor handle them carefully and return them to us because they are the only copies that are in existence, so far as I know, in Germany.\nIf Your Honors please, we're now prepared to distributeNOKW-195, which was offered yesterday as Exhibit No. 134. This is the conference held on October 28, 1943 at Karinhall, with Goering, Speer, Sauckel, the defendant, and others. That's Exhibit 134, Your Honors; we assigned it a number yesterday and we didn't have it to distribute at the time.\nCROSS EXAMINATION (continued) BY MR. DENNY:\nQWitness, did you know a man named Kammler or Kemmler, something like that, who was with the SS?\nAYou mean Kammler? Spelled with an \"a\", sir?\nQ.K-A-M-M-E-R, was it?\nAYes.\nQWhat did he do?\nAI knew him from the time of the Jaegerstab, and, at that time, he had something to do with constructions.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "THE MARSHALL", "MR. DENNEY", "Q", "A" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2676, "page_number": "2143", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "I believe those were the subterranean constructions--in caves. Those were the constructions that were being built on Georing's special orders, at first , while Hitler was in charge of the surface constructions.\nQ.He built things for the Jaegerstab; is that right?\nA.No, he was a liaison man to the Jaegerstab, bocause part of these underground constructions were also meant for the production factories of the Jaegerstab.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Mr. Denney, May I interrupt to straighten out this record a little bit?\nMR. DENNEY:Yes, sir.\nTHE PRESIDENT:I made a note of 134, yesterday, which was a letter from Frank to Sauckel, dated 21 November 1945. Was that wrong? I wonder if we've given the wrong number to this last exhibit which, you've just handed up?\nMR. DENNEY:Could be, Your Honor.\nTHE PRESIDENT:We all have the same notation, and I think Dr. Bergold has -\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes.\nMR. DENNEY:Well then -\nDR. BERGOLD:Exhibit 134 was 908-PS.\nMR. DENNEY:Yes.\nTHE PRESIDENT:I think this should be the next exhibit number.\nMR. DENNEY:NOKW-195, then Your Honor, will become 143.\nTHE PRESIDENT:I think that's right.\nJUDGE PHILLIPS:We never did get a copy of 908-PS , did we?\nMR. DENNEY:No, Your Honor; that's being prepared.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "JUDGE PHILLIPS", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2677, "page_number": "2144", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "Q (By Mr. Denney) Were you at a meeting of the Generalluftzeugmeister on 3 September 1942?\nAI do not believe that it was an actual GL meeting. I believe that at that time there was a special meeting with the man in charge of the news service. He was the intelligence chief of the OKW, at the same time, of the Army.\nQWhat was his name?\nAFellgiebel.\nQFellgiebel?\nAYes, General Fellgiebel.\nQ (Spelling)F-e-l-g-i-e-b-e-l?\nANo, no. (Spelling)F-e-l-l-g-i-e-b-e-l.\nQThe next document isNOKW-286which will be Exhibit 144 for identification. These are partial excerpts of a conference held on 3 September 1942. On page 2 which is page 2325 of the original, a man named Deutschmann is speaking. Who is Deutschmann?\nAI do not know that. However, here I have a meeting of the 9th of September.\nQYes. Well, the cover sheet that I have says the 3rd. Did you go to a meeting on the 9th? Will you look in your diary?\nANo.\nQWell, let's go over the context and perhaps it will refresh your recollection. Deutschmann says: \"Reports have come in from front repair workshops that up to 40% of the people simply do not come to work. Because of the difficulties in the food supply they simple go out into the country in order to have something to eat. At the workshop \"Mechanische Werkstaetten (mechanical Workshops) I have found out that the Poles have not come because Russian pilots had dropped propaganda material. In one case, I have seen that about 50% of the workers failed to come.\"\nAnd then you spoke \"What do you do against that?\"\nDeutschmann says: \"For the time being, I did not do anything.\"\nAnd then you continued: \"And where was that - in Warsaw? In such a case, orders have to be given that these workers get a good beating. And Russian prisoners of war are used to give it to them.\"", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2678, "page_number": "2145", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "Deutschmann: \"Just at the time when the Russians attacked I was planning to have 200 Poles transported to Western Germany in order to fill a gap in the hoop production there. The conditions of procurement in Warsaw were such that I could afford it; therefore, I had no special reason to take measures.\"\nThen you spoke: \"If those workers stay away from work just as they please, then they need a good beating and this punishment is to be administered by Russians. Contact the SD; tell them that these workers had failed to come to work and that I demand that they be punished and not by having their food taken away from them but by the slightly milder punishment of 50 strokes each.\"\nDeutschmann: \"Various unfortunate occurrences have happened together.\"\nThen you spoke: \"I don't care, these occurrences are none of my business. The unfortunate occurrence for the person involved is when he gets his good beating. And he should not fail to get it.\"\nDeutschmann: \"We have already drawn the attention of the Reichsfuehrer SS to it; something is going to be done about it.\"\nThen you continue: \"Such occurrences must not remain unpunished, they must not happen. If those people mutiny and do not work, then I demand that some shooting is done at those occasions. No do the same in Poland as the British do in India, with the only difference that the British deal with their own subjects whereas we deal with the enemy. I want none of our people ever to show lack of action. I make every Section Chief responsible to take measures to that effect immediately. He is not to administer the beatings himself but to go to the SD and demand that this or that is done. What kind of measures they take we will leave to the SD, but I want to have a report on what has been done, in such cases. What do you think would happen to a worker in Germany if he went on strike?\"\nDo you recall that?\nANo, I don't.And on the 3rd of September I had not been to a GL conference anyway.\nQHave you ever said anything about beating Polish workers?", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2679, "page_number": "2146", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "ANo, I can't recall that.As I said before, on the 3rd I had not been to a GL meeting, and I only came back to Berlin in the afternoon, and I had a long conference concerning radio equipment and those people who were present there on the 9th -- there was no meeting whatsoever on the 9th. I was not at Berlin either.\nQI will hand you the cover page which precedes this particular note and look on the top there and see if you didn't put in your hand, ZMA, on it?\nAMy name is not on there.\nQYour name, no, but isn't that in your handwriting? Isn't that the same ZMA that appears on all these other notes?\nAIt could be, yes. However, it is not quite sure.Apart from that it says 10:00 a.m. On that particular morning I had started from Breslau at 8:52 a.m. and I arrived in Rechlin at 9:57 a.m., and I had those things shown to me and I looked at them and then in the afternoon from 3:12 to 3:34 I flew from Rechlin to Gardow; went to see the Air Minister because I had a conference on radio equipment there with the General of the Intelligence Division of the OKW and the Army. In other words, I was not in Berlin on that day.\nQThere wasn't any other General Field Marshal Milch in the Air Force, was there?\nANo, there was no other Field Marshal Milch. However, due to the inaccuracy of these records I consider it possible that there was quite a muddle.\nQWell, I suggest to you that you are probably the one man in the Generalluftzeugmeister that no stenographer keeping notes would ever mistake.\nAThat is absolutely impossible because all these things are dated very accurately by myself. After all, I had to write a log book as pilot.\nQThe next document isNOKW-288which will become Exhibit 145 for identification. This is a series of meetings, Your Honors, one of November 30, 1943; one of October 19, 1943; one of 25 January 1944; and one of 14 December 1943. Of the cover page of the meeting of 30 November appears the notation \"to my files\" with the defendant's characteristic signature, Mi. The same thing appears on the cover page of October 19; 1943, the same on the meeting of 23 January 1944; and the same on the meeting of 14 December 1943.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2680, "page_number": "2147", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "This becomes Exhibit 145 for identification. I ask that you look on the cover pages of those minutes and see whether or not you initialed them. They may be somewhat out of order.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2681, "page_number": "2148", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "19MA r-M-GES-3-1-Blakley (Simha)\nA.It says here on the record, the 23rd of January; and here again it says, \"To my records with Milich\"; and then it says, \"Mi\"; and here again it says, \"Mi \". On one of them Zmy name is not there; and the handwriting there concerning the files is different from mine.\nQ.Then you admit that your signature appears on three of them?\nA.Yes, indeed.\nMR. DENNEY:In any event I might add here that all of these papers were taken from the files of the defendant in the Reich air Ministry in Berlin, captured by the RAF; and they are currently in the British Air Ministry at 17 Bunk Street London.\nTHETRIBUNAL (JUDGE PHILLIPS): You mean the files of this defendant?\nMR. DENNEY:Yes, sir.\nA.May I add something to this, sir? Verbatim records concerning GL meetings were only issued in two copies; and both of then were in my office, with my secretary. Apart from that there were no copies whatsoever in the whole building or anywhere also outside the building. The stenotypists did not keep a copy of them either as they were compelled to destroy the first take. In the RLM, when Germany surrendered there was no longer a copy left. In other words, they must have been brought lore from somewhere also than Berlin.\nQ.But you don't dispute that many of those copies which we have shown you bear your initials?\nA.No, not at all, I only wish to say that those records could not have been found in Berlin.\nQ.Well, wherever they were found they were taken by the RAF to London where they presently are; and those are photostatic copies of them; and they were all taken together. Now, on Page 7929 of the original, Peterson is speaking and he is talking about the withdrawal of the 288 from Junkers.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "THE", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2682, "page_number": "", "date": "10 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-10", "text": "He says: \"Five hundred men could be composed of concentration camp inmates. Those five hundred could be obtained from Himmler. At present a list of names is being drawn up .\"\nThen you spoke, and you said: \"For this purpose we would come to an agreement with Himmler. That we could do. I am convinced that even otherwise 2148(a) we could get the people somehow.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2683, "page_number": "2149", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "But I am also convinced that this request of one thousand men is an exaggerated request which is meant only to prove to us: You cannot meet your obligations and therefore we cannot get ready with our series. \" Do you recall that?\nA.I can't read the date here. That was the 19th of October, your Honor?\nQ.No, this is the 30th of November.\nA.That is of November, 19---?\nQ. 1943.\nA.Yes, indeed. On my cover page, however, it says October; and on the 19th of October there was a meeting; however, not on the 19th of November.\nQ.No, the 30th of November. You also have been handed record of a meeting of the 30th of November.\nA.On the 30th, I'm sorry. Yes, on the 30th of November there was a meeting.\nQ.Do you recall talking about getting concentration camp inmates from Himmler on that date?\nA .No, I don't; and I don't quite see what the question is about.\nQ.Apparently it is about getting concentration camp workers to work for you.\nA.As far as I can see it's all about Heinkel.\nQ.Well, it doesn't make any difference whom it is about. Didn't you talk to Himmler sometime---?\nA.No, I did not speak with Himmler about that. I have to think over for a moment what this question is all about. I already said before that at certain given time it was known to me that concentration camp inmates were being used at Heinkel's near Oranienburg; and this seems to be the question about the same thing. The remark I made here goes to show you that the demand for a thousand men by the industry seems exaggerated to me; and I say if we actually were given these thousand men, then we would be in a spot.", "speakers": [ "A .", "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2684, "page_number": "", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "By that I mean according to my opinion they couldn't possibly 2149(a) use those people.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2685, "page_number": "2150", "date": "15 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-15", "text": "Q.Over a little farther in the same note you say: \"Since with all this labor they still are very weak and still go on requesting labor, they cannot have produced anything in the past. From all this it appears clearly that these are phony requests which constitute a knowingly exaggerated demand,\" This is on Page 7930 of the original. \"That they say is: you do not grant the necessary primary needs, that,is, the workers and therefore I cannot meet my deadline. How easy-going they are in this regard can soon be seen from the type 209 which was to come out in June. For this type only 165 workers in total were requested; and now we hear: we need an additional one thousand, and furthermore to hear: even then we cannot bring out the type 209 before the end of 1945 or the beginning of 1946. According to my opinion things like that should be brought before a court martial.\"\nA.By that I mean that the firm which was responsible for this ought to be put before a court martial. However, there was no court martial, unfortunately that is one of my usual expressions.\nQ.Yes , it seems to be. Now, down a little lower on the page you say: \"That I am in a position to classify as key workers a thousand workers individually, that is no miracle.\" You could classify workers, couldn't you?\nA.No, that is not what I mean by that. I am in a position to have checked up. I am speaking of another time where someone was to check up on this man. Then I say that it would be possible to classify and check up on the fact that they could use a thousand men in there and only a fraction of it. That wouldn't be a miracle, and further on I say I want to speak to Frydag and say that that has to be investigated. I say that we cannot permit the crazy demands to be made to us which cannot be fulfilled. I believed this is a clear proof that I stressed the point that all exaggerated requests of the Industry be rejected.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2686, "page_number": "", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "Q.They first brought the request to you, didn't they?\nA.No, that isn't it. They sent the request to Sauckel. However, they informed us of the fact that they had made these requests; and furthermore they told us, \"If Sauckel cannot give us these people, then we cannot fulfill 2150(a) our program.\"", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2687, "page_number": "2151", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "Then we thought it over; and we said, \"This request is somewhat exaggerated.\" I have taken the liberty of repeating several times that this was a main task of this agency in my office, that is, with reference to the exaggerated requests of the industry, to press those down to a certain minimum.\nQ.If you told them to reduce their requests for labor they would do it. wouldn't they?\nA.No, that has nothing to do with it. However, we ourselves sent them on to Speer who passed them on to Sauckel -- \"We cannot fulfill the requirements of the industry or, rather, we cannot support it.\" On the other hand, we told this firm, \"Your requests are false, much too high. We cannot allow this. If we hear anything else about this matter and if you make such exaggerated requests, file such requests with Sauckel.\"\nQ.You always kept in touch with the labor situation to know whether or not their requests were exaggerated or normal?\nA.That was a task which we had. That belonged to all agencies of every organization which had something to do with the armament. That is, if they found out whether the orders taken over from the industry could be fulfilled or not, with reference to the labor question or, more often, to the material question, and if the firm for instance said, \"I need five thousand tons more aluminum,\" this all had to be examined by me to see that it was correct, so that I could inform the agencies in charge of the distribution of the material, I could tell them whether the request of the industry was correct or if it was not correct. Those labor agencies of Sauckel's, the labor offices, could not survey whether a request made by a factory was technically correct or not, so Sauckel had to assume that when the industry made demands they were justified. However, as we had experts or engineers for this purpose who could check up exactly whether the requests were correct or not. And it was our duty as a matter of course to report this to the superiors and also to tell our industry what they should not do. However, if we had not done that -", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2688, "page_number": "2152", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "THE PRESIDENT:Try to keep the witness in hand, Mr. Denney. He is wandering.\nMR. DENNEY:Yes, Your Honor, please.\nBY MR. DENNEY:\nQ.Do you recall talking to Himmler in October on the matters of labor? Have a look in your diary and see if -\nA.Can you tell me the date, sir.\nQ.Sometime in October, the first week or so, 1943?\nA.I did not discuss this in October with Himmler. I spoke to him on the 12th of April and on the 12th of November.\nQ.Let's look at this meeting of 19 October 1943, page 8391 of the original, Your Honor, Midway of page with the defendant speaking:\n\"Gen. Field M. Milch: I do not want to reject it, but the man who submitted it is not a clever man. What these people want to do is certainly the following. The other day I talked to Himmler about it, and I told him that his main task should be to see to the protection of German Industry in cases of internal uprisings of the foreign workers (Botokuden). I said, that, consequently, a well established method should exist, and I have already given orders to the Chief AW and to the training stations to get military training in this field.\"\nDR. BERGOLD:May it please the Tribunal, I have to raise an objection. In the German copy it says: \"A certain disturbance of the Botokuden for the protection of German industry.\" The words, \"The internal trouble of the Botokuden\" is missing in the English translation. \"For any disturbance at the battle of Botokuden.\"\nMR. DENNEY:Well, I think Your Honor can see this \"Internal uprising of the foreign workers.\"\nDR. BERGOLD:It is of the \"Botokuden.\"\nTHE PRESIDENT:Will some one tell us what \"Botokuden\" is?\nDR. BERGOLD:They are certain negro tribes.\nMR. DENNEY:I am told that the term was used to apply to foreign workers as well. However, it is a small point, and we can pass it.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2689, "page_number": "2153", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "BY MR. DENNEY:\nQ (continuing) \"I said that, consequently, a well established method should exist, and I have already given orders to the Chief AW, and to the training stations to get military training in this field. If for instance in the locality X, an uprising is started, then a sergeant with a few men, or else a lieutenant with 30 men to turn up in the plant, and first of all shoot into the crowd with a machine gun. What he should do after is to shoot down as many people as possible in cases of revolt. I have given orders to the effect even if our own foreign workers are involved. But first of all he must succeed in getting them all laid out flat on the ground. And then every tenth man is to be singled out and shot, while the others are lined up and see it. If our machines are being wrecked, etc. then such measures have to be applied. I said to Himmler: I'll go along with you in your efforts. He said: I want to know where the most important production plants are located. He approaches the armament production in general. I cannot know exactly where that is what they want, but I presume that that is it. Why should we oppose that? He would get that information from Speer anyhow.\"\nYou still say you did not talk to Himmler about this?\nA.No, I did not discuss that point with Himmler.\nQ.Well why were you telling people at the General Luftzeugmeister that you talked with Himmler, if you had not?\nA.I cannot recall that today. However, I doubt it that this verbatim record here is correct, and somehow I was particularly excited, and I will say if our planes were being destroyed in the workshops, an energetic measure should be taken then.\nQ.That is how you explain putting people on the ground by submachines and then lining them up and then shooting one out of every ten as energetic?\nA.I think I cannot remember very well the whole instance myself, because in all of those cases when I was especially excited, I don't know myself what I said at that particular moment.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2690, "page_number": "", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "I believe, however, that it was absolutely clear that no such German order was ever issued, that it never occurred, and I even know exactly that during this time I did not talk to 2153 a Himmler.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2691, "page_number": "2154", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "Q.You told him you had given orders to that effect?\nA.No, I did not.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Didn't what? Did you say that,or did not give the order?\nTHE WITNESS:Neither did I discuss them with Himmler, nor did I issue an order.\nTHE PRESIDENT:But it just said that you had given the orders?\nTHE WITNESS:No, I never said that.\nTHE PRESIDENT:You are quoted here -- you are quoting here as saying: \"I have given orders to that effect.\" Did you make that statement?\nTHE WITNESS:I don't believe that I said such a thing.\nTHE PRESIDENT:You mean that this report is not true?\nTHE WITNESS:Yes, I think so.\nJUDGE PHILLIPS:To keep the record straight so as to quote correctly the witness, I believe it reads as follows:\n\"I have given orders to that effect even if our own foreign workers are involved.\" You read in the record: \"I have given orders to the effect.\"\nMR.DENNEY: \"I have given orders to that effect,\" yes, sir. Thank you, sir.\nBY MR. DENNEY:\nQ.Now over on page 8453: the meeting of 25 January 1944, you start out by saying: \"Have all requests for labor been granted?\" Somebody said, \"No.\" and you said, \"What is still lacking?\" and Diesing said, \"Kaufmann can say that.\" There is some discussion, and over on the next page, page 8454 of the original, Mahnke says, \"The labor situation in the motor sector has been mystified by the fact that there have been delays in the assignment of Czech workers. This is especially fine for the type 262, and for Junkers for the TL instruments.\" Then you say, \"We are not speaking of the TL instruments now. The only thing that is decisive for me is the question whether the transport problem in the protectorate has been solved.\"", "speakers": [ "THE WITNESS", "Q.", "JUDGE PHILLIPS", "MR.", "A.", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2692, "page_number": "", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "And then Diesing told you: \"The transports go on. Up to now, 5,000 workers have been brought 2154 a in.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2693, "page_number": "2155", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "General Weger wanted to ring up the Field Marshal because yesterday he talked this matter over with Minister Speer. Now I do not know whether something has been done in this matter already. I have dispatched a stop cable directed against the practice of taking any people whatsoever from the class 1924 for other production, and I said that Saur, too, assured us even at our last discussion that we shall get all these people. Second, I have protested against giving a despite to transports. Up to now the transports are still going on.\" Then over on the next page, page 8455 of the original, you say, \"We have to get these people. What exactly are we lacking?\" and Kaufmann said: \"428 German and 677 foreign specialists. The others are auxiliary workers, there is no difficulty in getting them.\" Then you say: \"Apart from that how many auxiliary workers?\" Kaufmann Said, \"148 German and 1381 foreign auxiliary workers. To that 1532 men are to be added for the plane body construction. They have not yet been declared reserve workers by the special committee. They, too, are for the most part only auxiliary workers. How many of them will be foreigners I cannot say, but I do not think that there will be many.\"\nDo you recall that?\nA.Yes, I remember the question concerning these Czech people. The question was that a greater number of Czechs had been destined by Sauckel for the Luftwaffe armament. At that time Czechslovakia, after 15 February 1939, was a part of the German Reich, and these Czechs were to work in Czech factories for the Luftwaffe. This was done because work had already been done both for the Army and the Navy in the old Skoda-werke, and various others, while the Luftwaffe industry was not included. Now an agreement was reached that these Czech laborers were to be sent to Germany for a certain number of months to learn their trade, and then later on they were to work under the treaty terms, and to learn their new trade, and in the meantime all the factories which were under construction in Czechoslovakia were completed, and the people then came back to their home country.", "speakers": [ "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2694, "page_number": "2156", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "QYou wore taking twenty year old boys from Czechoslovakia, weren't weren't the class of 1924?\nAWell, the older age groups were already being employed elsewhere for other purposes. We did not take them, but the GBA had put them at our disposal because these twenty year olds were compelled to work, I believe they were conscripted for some kind of labor service, the same as in Germany. They were to learn this trade.\nQYou say that Czechoslovakia was then a part of Germany\nAYes, indeed.\nQAs a result of two actions which I believe you described to the Court last Tuesday or Wednesday?\nAYes, those were the enterprises of 1938 and 1939, spring, that is.\nQThese Czechs were all voluntary workers?\nAI can not tell that; insofar as the question here is the age group of those who were twenty at the time, that is 1944, they were compelled by the law to work, just as a all others in Germany.\n(Discussion off the record.)\nTHE INTERPRETER:Dr. Bergold's objection is that it should read \"legally compelled\" instead of\"compelled by law\nMR. DENNEY:I think it is a minor point, but if Dr. Bergold wants the translation to road that they were legally compelled, with \"legally\" in quotes I certainly have no objections.\nBY MR. DENNEY:\nQNow, turn over to the meeting of 14 December 1943. You recall being at that?\nAOn 15 December 1943? Yes, there was a GL meeting at the time.\nQNow, you notice that Kleinrath there -- the man ahead of him is speaking of 30,000 or 35,000.", "speakers": [ "THE INTERPRETER", "A", "MR. DENNEY", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2695, "page_number": "", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "Kleinrath says:\n\"From the military sector we received exactly 1100 workers from the Italians. We have no military internees at our disposal. Even the last 16,000 have been given notice by the OKW for January 1.\"\nAnd then you say:\n\"Things will not be set right before the whole question of prisoners of war is differently arranged and the prisoners of war withdrawn from the troops. Most of them are just useless camp followers, and in most cases they go over 2156 a to the partisans anyhow.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2696, "page_number": "2157", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "As long as the army retains the prisoners of war under the present form of administration, we shall never get things straightened out. The Luftwaffe now has a total of, I believe, 50,000 prisoners of war, about 28,000 of which are Russians. This is the total of the Russians at the disposal of the whole industry of Luftwaffe, and it includes the officers in both camps. The situation, after all, is utterly ridiculous if one thinks of the millions which are still alive, and tomorrow we have to make the demand that for the winter the agriculture inevitably has to turn over labor.\"\nNow, how do you account for that statement? First, you are using prisoners of war in the Luftwaffe, and, second, you are using officers. You are an old soldier. You have been in the army for thirty years.\nAThe question here deals with prisoners of war who are in the armament industry of the Luftwaffe and in one or two places, younger officers, were employed, Russian officers.\nWe ourselves had no right to visit those factories. specially constructed transport plane was being built there, and I assume that these Russian officers had volunteered for their work. I personally had nothing to do with the question and I never could have heard anything about this whole matter myself, because, as I said, not even the GL was allowed to enter those premises. That was a special order issued by Hitler, the reasons for which I could not find out. Also I don't know if those officers were all being used as supervisors for their people or as interpreters. At least, that is the way I imagined it at the time.\nQWhere did you get these figures?", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2697, "page_number": "", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "AThey must have been submitted on some sort of list of our statistics.\nQ You got a list of statistics all the time, didn't you?\nANo, we had our own statistics. From our own statistics from the reports which we received from our own industries, and during the examination by Dr. Bergold I mentioned that.\nQHow about the other 22,000 prisoners of war that the Luftwaffe was using. What were they? You have told us that they did not have any Americans, and we showed you a Jaegerstab meeting where you had 300 of them working in a factory. Tell us who these other 22,000 were.\nA according to what has been submitted to me and what I have seen, these 2157 a were Frenchmen, French prisoners of war.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2698, "page_number": "2158", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "With reference to American prisoners of war, I knew nothing about than until yesterday when this was submitted to me. I did not know that they were working.\nQWell, what else were in the 22,000 besides French?\nA I know only of Frenchmen, and I only saw Frenchmen.\nQYou don't mean to tell the Tribunal seriously that you could not go into a factory that was producing Luftwaffe equipment and go in and look around, you a Field Marshal in the air forces, the second ranking man in the Luftwaffe, the man who Hitler was sending to France and the Netherlands and Belgium, and you could not go into a factory and look around if it was a Luftwaffe factory?\nAI still adhere to my statement earnestly and truly. This can also be testified to by several witnesses - that I was not allowed to visit that factory.I was in a certain cleared area where the transport plane which I mentioned before was shown to me. Then I wanted to see the factory, which was a little distant from that cleared area. The G-2 man there was very sorry. He said that I had no permission to do so and that, therefore, he could not permit mo to visit the factory. I was humiliated that I had to leave in such a way I could not get inside neither could I see the work being done.\nQDid not that arouse your curiosity as to why they would not lot you see the premises?\nAYes, I asked this, and the man told me that a special order of Hitler applied to everybody, even the highest ranking officers.\nQ.Well, they were making something at that factory for your Luftwaffe, weren't they, an airplane?\nAYes, that is correct; transport pianos for the Luftwaffe were being constructed there.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q.", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2699, "page_number": "", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "There were certain conditions in Germany which were rather peculiar and in which somebody from a democratic country could not very well place himself and understand the situation. However, that is the way things were in Germany. It was humiliating for me, for instance, that I was not allowed to listen to foreign news broadcasts, but the same thing applied to Germany all the time.\nAYou could not listen to radios and foreign newscasts because you had something to do with a court that was sentencing people. By the way, what 2158 a sentences did people get for that?", "speakers": [ "A" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2700, "page_number": "2159", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "AIn my court, they received very mild sentences. The sentence itself was not pronounced by me, but by the judges. I only had the right to reduce the sentence or to reject the proceedings, and also I had a certain right of pardon and I made use of it. I believe that General Raeder here testified to that effect - that in such cases I put the people on probation. That is they would be used at the front.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:Let me interrupt, please. I'm sorry. Mr. Denney asked you one very simple question: What was the extent of the punishment meted out to those who listened to foreign broadcasts? Now, why can't you answer that directly? The other is very interesting, but let us have that answer first.", "speakers": [ "A", "JUDGE MUSMANNO" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2701, "page_number": "2160", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "ANow, generally speaking, probation. The sentences were, if my recollection is correct, between six months and one year. However, they did not serve their sentences because the people had the opportunity to go to the front in order to be free from this sentence there. The normal sentence which was always applied form from above was higher.\nQWas anyone over sentenced to death for that?\nA.In other places yes, I have heard about it.\nQAs far as you know, the other prisoners of war working in the Luftwaffe were 22,000 Frenchmen; is that right?\nAI was not able to count them. However, I can only say that during all visits I only saw French and Russian prisoners of war and spoke to them also.\nQYou never heard anything about any other kind working for you?\nAIn a report, of which I have no knowledge myself and which was submitted here a short time ago, other nationaliities were discussed also. I saw, for instance, yesterday that Belgians were mentioned at one spot. However, if they were in the Luftwaffe industry, I do not know. I did not see them there.", "speakers": [ "A", "A.", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2702, "page_number": "2161", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "QDo you know a man named Rothanbach?\nAYes, indeed.\nQWe now offer N.O.K.W. 417, which will become Prosecution's No. 146 for identification. Do you recall presiding over a conference of the General Juftzeugmeister on 31 March, 1944?\nAYes.\nMR. DENNEY:This next exhibit, if Your Honor please, the German copies aren't here yet. However, we have one German copy which we will show the witness.\nTHE PRESIDENT:They are being distributed?\nMR. DENNEY:Yes, Your Honors, they are being distributed Q (By Mr. Denney) Will you look on the outside and see if the note appears, \"Z.M.A., to my files,\" or to my records, with your signature underneath it?\nAYes, it does appear, and also my initials, \"Mi\" are there, and the date.\nQOn page 9579, you are making a little talk about the Jaegerstab. \"All the of as made during the previous months to increase this production were made in vain because the Luftwaffe lacked the primary requisites, firstly with regard to staff, including specialists and supervisory personnel, secondly for repair construction and everything connected with it, and thirdly for transport and everything connected with it. The demands we made were not satisfied.\n\"In the last days of February, I therefore approached Minister Speer. Together with him and his division chiefs, we agreed to create a Special Staff for the promotion of the Fighter production, in the same way as we created a special Ruhr Staff by which we successfully overcame the emergency created in the Ruhr by the summer attacks of last year.", "speakers": [ "THE PRESIDENT", "A", "MR. DENNEY", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2703, "page_number": "", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "Here the question supplying parts made of forged iron or of cast iron, etc. in addition to the questions questions mentioned above, were of real importance. All these are tasks which lie tied up in the armament supply office of the Speer Ministry. Minister Speer and his division chiefs who saw the situation quite clearly, enthusiastic 2161 a tically joined us in our demand, and thus in the course of one single day, even in the course of only six hours we came to an agreement and set up the Jaegerstab.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2704, "page_number": "", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "Minister Speer, at that time, was sick and I had gone to Hohenly chen to discuss these questions with him.\n\"The plan was then submitted to the Reichsmarshall who welcomed it very much, and then it was submitted to the Fuehrer who agreed wholeheartedly to the proposal. Thereby the Jaegerstab was born and recognized.\n\"Right at the beginning of March we started work, and we set up a special organization for these tasks, an organization in which all important questions are dealt with, independent of official regulations, normally existing in the central and medium government agencies. Minister Speer and myself took charge of the Jaegerstab. Hauptdienstleiter Saur is the Deputy Chief of Staff. The Staff includes a Planning Division under Dr. Wegner, a Construction Division under the Engineer Schlempp, Lt. General Kammler of the Daffen SS takes care of questions of Special Construction, Director Schaaf, right hand man of Staatsrat Schieber in the Armament Supply Office deals with the Supply Question, Ministerialrat Speh is in charge of the Confiscation of Dispersal Sites, Nagel, chief of the Transport Units in the Ministry of Armament and War Production handles the Questions of Transport, the Power Supply is the task of Director Gen. Fischer, Otto Lange deals with Machinery, Nobel with Repairs, Pueckel, president of the Reich Railway Directory, handles Transport by the Reich Railway, Reich Postal Matters are taken care of by Oberpostrat Zerbel, Workers' Health by Dr. Perschmann, Social Welfare by Ministerialrat Birkenholz, and Dr. Engineer Stoffregen is in charge of the Raw Materials and Quotas. These are the gentlemen who form the Jaegerstab. From the list of names you see that entirely independent persons are involved, while the enumeration of the different spheres of work shows you that all spheres which are of interest to us are included, in the Jaegerstab.\" It looks as though you and Speer were boss men, doesn't it?\nAYes, sir.\nQI see that Lieutenant General Hammier of the Waffen SS is listed here. 2162", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2705, "page_number": "2163", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "A.Yes, he had also been sent there by his agency, and I wish to point out again the Jaegerstab was not an authority. All the work that was being done by the Jaegerstab could only be done on the basis of the authority to which these single members of the Jaegerstab belonged. That means then the Jaegerstab couldn't give any order of any effect, but it could only give certain requisitions which then on the basis of the liberations were either granted or not. The execution was in the hands of all those ministries and offices from which these people had been sent.\nQ.You said yourself that you dealt independent of the official regulations.\nA.Yes, in so far, according to the German administrative law such a compilation of many representatives of various ministries had not been known before but the man in the ministry had to go approach his minister to the minister of the other ministry, who only then could give it to his expert or then not one of the two. However, here there was a regular meeting of people from the various ministries. With regard to everyone of those actions the minister had to give his agreement to it, and so there was a greater independence in the collaboration and cooperation here.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Recess, Mr. Denney.\nTHE MARSHALL:The Tribunal is in recess fifteen minutes.\n(A recess was taken.)", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "THE MARSHALL", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2706, "page_number": "2164", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "THE MARSHAL:Tribunal Number 2 is again in session.\nQ. (By Mr. Denney) Turning now again, Your Honors, to Exhibit 146 for identification, which we just discussed, you will note that there is an excerpt from page 9603 which has been added, in which the defendant speaks and says: \"I know our German research very closely. I have to do with it intimately since 1926, and I was always a member of the control board of the German Experiment Institute for the Luftwaffe.\"\nThe German Experimental Institute for the Luftwaffe was the DVL, was it not?\nA.Yes, it was, but that applies up to 1933. From 1933 onward I was no longer on the board of directors of the DVL.\nQ.So when you said that there you meant up until 1933; you didn't mean that you were now?\nA.That is so, yes.\nQ.You were interested in those matters, however, weren't you?\nA.Only technically. As a pilot, of course, I was interested in research work.\nQ.Well, the witness Vorwald testified here that when these experiments were made they were limited as to what height they could go?\nA.Yes, that is, of course, a matter of course, that the GL should say what altitude he is anxious to reach, but that has nothing to do with whether I am still on the board of directors of the DVL or not, nor has it anything to do with the fact that I should have to be its superior officer. As I said, I was not the superior officer.\nQ.You said you were above Foetster and Foetster was over Hippke?\nA.Yes.\nQ.And you talked to Hippke about these things in August of 1942?\nA.Yes, I did.\nQ.You told the Court that you had made sure that nothing had happened?", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "A.", "Q." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2707, "page_number": "2165", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "A.Yes, Hippke said that in the court.\nQ.I seem to have forgotten a Luftzeugmeister minute or two here. Did you attend a Luftzeugmeister conference on 22 September 1943?\nA. 22 September was it?\nQ. 1943.\nA.There was a conference of the GL with Speer.\nQ.And you were there?\nA.Yes, I was.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2708, "page_number": "2166", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "MR. DENNEY:This isNOKW 347, which is a partial excerpt from a General Luftzeugmeister conference of September 22, 1943, which we offer as Prosecution's Exhibit 147 for identification.\nQ.Will you look on the outside and see whether or not your initials appear, please?\nA.Yes, I find them.\nQ.A man named Fluegge is speaking on Page 44 of the original: \"Other branches are included in this figure 50, which refers to the red tickets of August. A part of the production has found its way into this column. Anyhow it is a question of certain sectors within these 35,000 red tickets. Thirty five per cent of these requirements have been covered. It is possible that it happens to be more unfavorable in this specific sector. For the time being we do not have to deal any longer with the question from where to get the people but with the technical question to withdraw them as quickly as possible from the Stalag's. That has to be achieved within the next few days. Up until now it did not work well. During these last days, only very few prisoners of war have been assigned. I wanted to deal with the matter already today. These people do exist.\"\nThen Speer says: \"Which army districts have to be furnished with labor. Someone interpolates or interrupts: \"Army district VI and also Schweinfurt Gerhardt speaks: \"The labor officials also have to remain firm, even if the enterprises says that they cannot use Italians.\"\nThen Speer says: \"As far as the quantity is concerned, there is really no problem for the time being. According to reports received yesterday we have 190,000 Italian POW's in Germany which belong to us alone and which are as far as urgency is concerned, divided up in such a manner that after those fit for mining and those fit for the heavy industries, the supply industries absolutely receive the next priority. They arc secured for the armament industry. The OKU has received orders accordingly. Perhaps, Nicolai, you arrange it that way that by 5:00 p.m, a conference takes place between Hildebrandt, yourself a nd the other gentlemen. And then right after the conference you come over here, together with Hildebrandt, Gerhardt, Becker, and Mueller, and tell me what really is to be covered finally, and within what period of time.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2709, "page_number": "2167", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "And then we let the different enterprises give a summary report every second day as to what actually has been done with regard as well to the crankshafts as to the cylinders. On the whole this covers the whole area of the supply industries. The 30,000 we have mentioned are a total. We do not want to delay the others again. Otherwise they will get nothing at all.\"\nThen you say: \"If these people cannot be lodged right away -- I have seen how they have done it in the East -- then lodge them in the factory let them stay there until the barracks are constructed. This matter must not fail because someone says these people cannot be lodged. They can sleep near the machine.\"\nDo you recall - suggesting that the workers sleep in the plants near their machines?\nA.Yes, I recall that. At that time the cities where the factories were situated had been damaged by air raids; and our German workers had to sleep in their factories. The people you spoke of here, Fluegge, Nicolai, Hildebrandt, Gerhardt, Becker, Mueller, are not people of the GL. In this meeting we were concerned with the question of how Speer could help in the Luftwaffe industry; and these are deliberations and those of his people. I assume that in this report we discussed the question of lodging before; and with some delay I deal with it now.\nQ.You could get almost anybody you wanted in one of those Luftzeugmeister meetings, couldn't you, to take up any problem?\nA.No, I was unable to do that. For instance, in this case when I wished to enlist Speer's support, I had to apply to him; and he brought his expert workers with him.\nQ.You asked Speer to come; and he came and brought whoever you wanted to have brought?\nA.No, whomever he wanted to bring. I could not give Speer orders as to whom he was to bring along.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2710, "page_number": "2168", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "Q.You could suggest, couldn't you?\nA.I did not know these people nor can I recall either Fluegge, Gerhardt, Becker, and Mueller. In the case of Hildebrandt I assume that he was an official from Sauckel, who did not belong to Speer's Ministry and Nicolai was an officer of Speer's Armament Ministry.\nQ.Where was Speer's office?\nA.It was in Berlin on the Pariser Piatz, Numbers 3 and 4.\nQ.This meeting that we have just talked about was held in the Reich Air Ministry in your office, wasn't it?\nA.Yes, it was held in my office. Speer came to see us for that purpose because we had issued the invitation to him. That used to change to and fro. Sometimes we would go to see him; and sometimes he'd come to see us.\nMR. DENNEY:This next document isNOKW-449, which we offer as Prosecution's Exhibit 148 for identification.\nQ.Will you look on the cover and see whether your initials appear there?\nA.Yes.\nQ.They do appear?\nA.Yes, they do.\nQ.This is a General Luftzeugmeister conference of March 2, 1943. Here you present at that conference?\nA.Yes, I was.\nQ.On Page 4505 of the original, you say: \"Another question. All reports from France show that the French have got their heads full of political thoughts and ideas. On the basis of the news they tell themselves that they are retreating on the Eastern Fromt and the English and Americans are gradually getting afraid that the Russians alone will be victorious. The French go on to say: If the promises made to us by the Americans are really kept, our fortunes are made. That has already led to our foreign workers' slowly becoming hostile. On principle I have to be informed of every case of swinishness. I do not understand at all why Germany should put up with it when Poles and Frenchmen explain to the people -- today, indeed, you are still sitting in this work; but later we shall be the owners; and if you treat us properly we shall see to it then, that you are shot dead immediately and not tortured first.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2711, "page_number": "", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "In all these matters energetic interference must be made. I am of the opinion that there should be only two types of punishment in such cases; firstly, concentration camps for foreigners and, secondly, capital punishment.\"\nDo you recall saying that?\nA.I recall the following, that, indeed, there were several reports made through our intelligence service that such statements had been made by foreigners; that if we treated them well they would shoot us at once and torture us first. These were official reports which were available at the time and which we regarded as a danger signal.\nQ.You continue: \"If a certain number of such hostile elements are removed and the others are informed, they will then work better. Their love for us certainly won't become any greater; but neither will their hate, for that is already strong enough. In this respect, too, energetic interference must be made and in no case must the works put up with it. The best method to give one with a sledge-hammer to the person concerned; and I shall treat with distinction every man who docs something like that whenever he hears such stupid nonsense. We are living in a total war; and the workers must be told that they don't have to put up with anything. Now the question is whether or not the gentlemen believe on the whole that we achieve something worth mentioning about work and production in France.\"\nDo you recall saying that?\nA.No, I do not recall that. That, once again, is my well-known burst of temper. I simply let myself go.\nQ.These are voluntary workers, I assume, that you are treating them this way?\nA.It was never really my intention to do that. That is just one of my sayings which I used to make.\nQ.Many of the witnesses have testified and I note on your direct examination that you were very careful to delete from the record any derogatory remarks that you made about Hitler, or Himmler, or Goering, or any of 2169 the other people.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2712, "page_number": "2170", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "AOnly if my attention had been drawn to these statements. If something slipped out in my rage, I didn't even remember it myself.\nQThen you say that all these things were said when you were mad?\nAYes; and I was enraged here through the report which had been submitted to me, because our people were being threatened with death. That enraged me considerably; and I exploded.\nQWell, it doesn't seem to have been a very strange thing in the Third Reich. You and everybody else were threatening other people with death all the time.\nAWho tells you this?\nQThis comes from one of those German intelligence agencies that you are sure are telling the truth.\nAI was convinced of that at the time.\nQThe same people had told you that Poland attacked Germany and the same people had told you that France attacked Germany, I suppose?\nANo, it wasn't the same people. They were entirely different departments and agencies. Political reports came through the progaganda machine whereas this one came from official agencies which had no cause to invent such things.\nQSo the report, of the invasion of Poland so far as you a.re concerned was a political report; that wasn't a military affair?\nAI never saw a military report about that.All I knew was the propaganda as broadcast by the radio and the press.\nQDid you hear Speer when he referred to the 190,000 Italian prisoners of war in Exhibit 147 in the meeting of September 22?\nAI saw it just now in the document submitted to me.\nQDo you remember hearing him say that?\nAI cannot remember that meeting any more; but it may well be.\nQThe Italian armistice was hardly concluded in September of 1943, was it?", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2713, "page_number": "2171", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "A.I cannot recall the date. I do not know it. But it must have been after Italy collapsed.\nQ.The war with Italy was just barely over and now you are talking about splitting up 190,000 prisoners of war of your recent ally?\nA.I do not speak of that myself.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2714, "page_number": "", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "Q.Speer spoke of it and you say you heard it?\nA.Yes; I don't knew what that has to do with it. Italy had let us down and then again the Italians who were spoken against Mussolini were taken against it, and the other people who were concerned here.\nMR. DENNEY:The next document is No KW 414, which we offer as Exhibit No. 149 for identification.\nJUDGE PHILLIPS:Mr. Denney.\nMR DENNEY:Yes, sir.\nJUDGE PHILLIPS:The last part of the statement objected to by the defendant as contained in Prosecution's Exhibit No. 148.\nMR DENNEY:I meant to read that, Your Honor.\nBY MR. DENNEY:\nQ.At the end of this speech again talking about the French workers, you said: \"But in the abstract; I see no difficulties in the way of getting 100,000 or 200,000 French workers to Germany, nor do I see any difficulties in the way of keeping them in order. If a case of sabotage occurs in one area, every tenth man in that area will be shot. Then such acts of sabotage would cease of themselves. The Western peoples are very much afraid of death, while it is a quite different matter with the Russians.\"\nDo you recall saying that?\nA.No, I don't recall. That was still part of my madness.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Then you were mad at nearly every meeting; were you not\nTHE WITNESS:Not in every meeting. No.\nQ.I said; nearly every meeting?\nA.NO, not ever that.\nQ.We have been shown in a great number of examples where you have spoken immoderately, putting in midly, and you explain then by saying that you were infuriated.\nA.There were more than three-hundred of such reports as part of the GL activities of the Jaegerstab; and that of the Central Planning Board; and each one of these copies had a large number of pages, I should say about one--hundred or more, and these things have been exacted here. Then I exploded. 2172", "speakers": [ "THE WITNESS", "Q.", "JUDGE PHILLIPS", "A.", "THE PRESIDENT", "MR. DENNEY", "MR DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2715, "page_number": "2173", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "THE PRESIDENT:All right.\nTHE WITNESS:In this case, for instance, I mentioned once again if there are uprising, or sabotage, that was always the question whether any uprising, they would be allowed here, once the Allied armies would come closer to Germany that question in a great many departments of uprising would be combatted in all countries of the world with very strong measures.\nQ.Well, the minute you got mad, or angry, you began talking about shooting people indiscriminately, and of beating them, and you immediately said that you had given orders to shoot people and to beat them, or that you would'give orders. Your anger always seemed to take that particular manifestation?\nA.Yes, I say, that was true; the head of the factory exercised here a statement, that no facts of orders were being given.\nQ.Yes, I know you have told us that you did not say that, that you had given the order, but threatened to give some more.\nA.No order was given. The record must be incorrect from what I see of something wrong at the time. I know very well that no such order was ever issued.\nQ.That is hard to understand, why you said that you had given such orders when it was not true?\nA.I assume that from the text that the stenographer did not keep the text correctly, there were mistakes on every page.\nQ.Then you did not say those things when you were mad, and if you did say them at all, then the stenographer is mistaken?\nA.I can hardly imagine that even when I am mad I say something which is wrong, of which I should be convinced that it is incorrect, therefore I assume that.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Go ahead, Mr. Denney:\nBY MR. DENNEY:\nQ.You speak in this particular exhibit of the differences between the attitude of the Easterners and the Westerners when they were killed, in the very last sentence?", "speakers": [ "THE WITNESS", "Q.", "A.", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2716, "page_number": "2174", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "A.Yes, that is understood there.\nQ.If people had not been killed, how did you know about the reaction towards these deaths?\nA.These are experiences I made in the First World War.\nQ.So you are relying on that to make these statements?\nA.That is how I know this.\nQ.You say of these workers that all were volunteers, you heave made that a great point, and that they were better treated at your hands than they were at the hands of any one else. If that is so, one would expect that they certainly would not want to bite the hand that fed them?\nA.All that is mentioned here is what should happen if there would be sabotage and uprising. It was never said that under normal conditions these things should be done, but only if the conditions were very acute. Happily that hardly applied in reality, and as long as the relations were good between the industry and our workers from abroad, always, however, instances are applied concerning, the welfare and good treatment and these cases here have only provided that.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2717, "page_number": "2175", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "Q.Well, you just said you had received intelligence reports that these threats were made.\nA.Yes, from certain agencies, but that did not allow for conclusions as far as normal conditions were concerned. I blew up because I had just been given that report, and I said that if that should happen something must be done, that our industry must not put up with it.\nQ.Well, how many people were normally at these meetings, 20 or 30, weren't there?\nA.Yes, it changed a bit. There were some lists this morning of people who had participated and that must have been roughly 25 to 30.\nQ.And the personnel who went to the meetings changed; the same people were not always there?\nA.One part of them was always the same -- the chiefs of offices and the heads of departments and the ones immediately under the second heads. Then there were some people who attended only temporarily to give information of some sort. These were specialists for special tasks. The majority would usually be the same ones, apart from the ones who changed.\nOf course, there were special conferences, as, for instance, the address given to the generals and to their chief engineers and so forth. On that occasion we went beyond the 25 or 30 limit but that size was a unique event. On that occasion we discussed only a very special subject, special questions in which these people were interested.\nQ.Are you speaking about the speech to the Generalluftzeugmeister on 25 March 1944? You ought to know what you are speaking about. You raised the question.\nA.I believe it was 31 March, not 25 March.\nQ.You are talking about the Generalluftzeugmeister conference on 31 March, the one that was put in?\nA.Yes, with the DVL pages attached. There was a large number of people taking part there, but I believe that was 31 March.\nQ.That's right. Now, 149 for identification, which isNOKW 414.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2718, "page_number": "2176", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "This is a partial excerpt of a minute of November 30, 1943. Do you remember that you initials appear on the outside? Oh, I don't think you have an exterior page in this one. I withdraw the question. It is 7970 of the original and 7971.\nThe defendant is speaking: \"The question is whether the material will be delivered from down there. My reflection is the following. The Italians have had a certain capacity which they themselves have not fully exhausted. If that is to be achieved, only one type of plane should be constructed down there. They have many skilled workers there while from us they are always withdrawn again. We cannot get these workers to Germany, or else another political and military leadership would have to exist down there. But for that, the preliminary conditions do not exist. They ought to be told: Either you work or starve. If they are starving they could be induced to cone to us. But as one does not have the power to let them starve, what I say to myself is: down there they will work. There are good workers in plenty there. The men are there, so is the capacity, and a large part of the necessary raw materials and accessories, which we cannot get to Germany in this quantity because we have no possibilities of transportation.\"\nDo you recall saying that?\nA.I do not recall those words in detail, of course, but I do know that the question of establishing steel factories in Italy or, as we had been ordered, production in Germany with Italian prisoners of war had been debated.\nQ.Well, if you could have let them starve, you would have?\nA.Starving is not mentioned here. The question is only that those who do work should be given ration cards. That ha.d been ordered by the Italian government but the Italian government was not strong enough to execute its own orders. In other countries - we, for instance, we were only given food if we worked for the fatherland. That was obvious in our case. In Italy, of course, it was no longer so.\nQ.You are speaking of the Mussolini government?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2719, "page_number": "2177", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "A.Yes, I speak only of Mussolini, of course.\nMR. DENNEY:That is 149 for identification, if Your Honor please. The next dccunent isNOKW 413, which becomes Exhibit 150 for identification. This is a partial excerpt of a meeting presided over by the defendant on 27 April 1943.\nBY MR. DENNEY:\nQ.Will you look at your notes and see whether or not they indicate that you were there?\nA.Yes, they are my initials.\nQ.I did not ask you about your initials. I asked you to see whether or not they indicate that you were present.\nA.And I said yes.\nTHEPRESIDENT: \"Diary\", Mr. Denney.\nQ.I asked you to look at your diary and see whether or not you were present.\nA.Yes.\nQ.You were present?\nA.Yes.\nQ.Those are your initials on the top page?\nA.Yes.\nQ.Perhaps you can explain to us this notation here. Von der Heyde is talking and says, \"I have one more question. How many inmates is this concentration camp to include?\" And Stahns says, \"These concentration carps are always 3,000 men strong,\" and then you say, \"Against a withdrawal of 3,000 foreign workers who can be used elsewhere. I attach importance to then being assigned to the Luftwaffe.\"\nA.From these brief words I cannot see the context. I do not know what is being debated here. May I just read through this?\nI assume from this brief passage here that this must be the extension of an airfield near Rechlin for the purposes of hone-based fighters. The airfield at Rechlin had been given orders by the Luftgau to execute the extension of the airfield. These were steel and subterranean shelters for the personnel and for that purpose young German people had been detailed but they were unsuitable for the work because they had too much training themselves.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "THE", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2720, "page_number": "2178", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "They had to give a lot of time to other purposes. For that reason, somehow or other, the column from a concentration camp had been detailed for that purpose, or had been promised. Other workers, also German workers, were there. They had to be removed and replaced by 3,000 people from a concentration camp. I was very anxious for those German workers to be sent to another department of the Luftwaffe. I see that that is the question debated here, because, apart from Petersen - his right hand man is speaking, man called Stahms. This man Stahms was a part of the testing station and usually did not attend the meetings.\nApart from Rechlin it could also apply to another testing station of curs where the same conditions prevailed, a question which did not concern the GL as such, but these were construction matters of the Luftgau. The testing stations were under two different departments. Technically they were under my leadership. As far as the ground organization was concerned, installations and so forth, they were subordinate to the Luftgau, to the Air Fleet Reich, and these gentlemen, of course, came to see me in order to enlist my support. I myself cannot give you details of the arrangements made here. Of course, we always were anxious to appear helpful if one of our own agencies applied to us, even when the question was not within my sphere, I can see here that it must have been a construction matter which was not my concern.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2721, "page_number": "2179", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "Q.Well, anyway they talked with you about it, didn't they?\nA.Yes, it seems that this conference took place. I have no personal recollection.\nQ.About the matter of the initialing of these communications. Did you initial everything that came to your desk?\nA.Do you mean these initials on this report, those \"Mi's\"? As I recall it I always put my \"Mi\" there. Whether the date was always there or not depended. Normally I usually put the date with it. Only in cases when I dealt with the matter very quickly so that it could be put with the files, then I often only put \"Mi\". All these were things which I didn't read myself. That would have taken up many hours. That was impossible for me.\nQ.Did you always initial everything that came to your desk?\nA.I assume so, yes. I am convinced of that but perhaps I may have omitted to do so. Whether or not I omitted to do so I am unable to say now but on the whole I think I was very reliable as far as signing was concerned, because otherwise my people outside wouldn't know whether it had reached me or not, and then it would be submitted to me again normally until it was finally initialed and disappeared.\nQ.Now, about the people of foreign extraction who worked -withdrawn. About the people who were non-Germans who worked for the Luftwaffe - what ones did you know that you had besides French and Russians?\nA.When I became G.L. at the end of 1941, Russians and Frenchmen were already working with us and if other nations were present there, although I cannot recall them, they must have been present at that time, too. I mean, for instance, Belgians, which I read something about just now.\nQ.The next document isNOKW 272, which is a partial, extract from a conference held between the defendant and one Rautenbach on 22 February 1944. We don't have the cover page here. Do your notes show that you saw Rautenbach on that date?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2722, "page_number": "2180", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "A.Yes, on the 22nd of February I was in Wernigerode with the Jaegerstab and Rautenbach - the factory there.\nQ.This is Prosecution's Exhibit 151 for identification, and midway on page 22 of the original, the defendant speaking, \"How is the personnel made up proportionally, as regards Germans and foreigners, and men and women?\"\nThen Rautenbach says: \"In Wernigerode we have some 6,000 and in Solingen some 4,000 work hands, all together some 10,000 people. Of these 76 percent in Wernigerode are foreigners and 24 percent Germans, end this includes the non-productive labor, though not office workers. Furthermore, we have 550 German women and 600 foreign ones in Wernigerode. Before the outbreak of the war we had hardly any women at all, only in the offices apart from the 'Kernmacherei' in Solingen. There were no foreigners employed there at all.\"\nThen the defendant says, \"To what nationalities do the foreigners belong?\"\nEngelke comes in, \"We have almost all nationalities here, in the main there are: 2,000 Belgians and Frenchmen, about 1,000 Poles and Russians, in addition 800 concentration earn internees, among whom you can find the most widely different nationalities, and then some Czechs and Poles.\"\nAnd then the defendant says, \"With/what workers are you not satisfied? The Frenchmen are good, skilled workers, but lately by not returning from their furloughs they have become unreliable. The Eastern workers, particularly the women, turn out very well once they have been schooled and trained. In the foundries and 'Kernnacherei' they are perhaps our best workers.\"\nRautenbach: \"That refers to Wernigerode. In Solengen we had the best results with Frenchmen and the worst with Italians, meaning the Italian workers and not the prisoners of war. For that reason we do not employ any Italians here in Wernigerode. They are only 50 to 60 percent efficient.\"", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2723, "page_number": "2181", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "Then the defendant says, \"Could not the following be done: give the Italians in principle only half of their food rations, letting them earn the other half when they do their work well?\"\nRautenbach: \"We introduced that already but the pilfering that starts ---\"\nMilch interrupted and said, \"Then we must take counter measures against such pilfering. Diesing, we will discuss that with the Reichsfuehrer SS.\"\nI am sorry, in the original it just says Reichsfuehrer. It doesn't say \"SS\". I don't believe there is any other Reichsfuehrer besides Himmler. Do you recall that?\nA.Himmler is meant here, of course, but there were other Reichsfuehrers, of course. I may say here that that factory did not belong to. the Luftwaffe industry. It was a foundry work that made semi-manufactured goods, and those factories were not part of the Luftwaffe industry. It did not concern the GL. We merely maid a visit there with some people from Speer in order to inspect this modern foundry equipment, and the preposition that they should be given only half the food ration does not mean that they should only be given half their ration. Half their ration should be given, which roughly corresponds to the ration for the German civilian and non-working German civilian families, etc. They should be given that in any case, but the supplementary rations, they should be only given the supplementary rations if they worked for us.\nQ.Here you were advising a factory owner, you, a German field marshal, you say the factory had nothing whatever to do with anything you were concerned with and yet you were projecting yourself into his business and suggesting how he should out down on the rations of his employees.\nA.He himself was not in a position to do so because the rations were not distributed by the factory, but that is merely a question put to him, whether that method had been tried out by the authorities con cerned with that sort thing.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2724, "page_number": "2182", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "THE PRESIDENT:Recess until one-thirty\nTHE MARSHAL:This Tribunal is in recess until 1330 this afternoon (A recess was taken until 1330 hours.)", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2725, "page_number": "2183", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1300 hours, 19 March 1947.)\nTHE MARSHAL:Tribunal II is again in session.\nERHARD MILCH - Resumed CROSS-EXAMINATION (Continued) BY MR. DENNEY:\nQWitness, do you recall the other day speaking about isolated instances with reference to the treatment of Polish people?\nAI am not quite sure what you are driving at.\nQWell, if you will recall his Honor spoke to you about how Polish people were treated and you said in certain isolated instances they might have been mistreated.\nAYes, that was my idea.\nMR. DENNEY:This document is 654PS which are notes on a discussion among Himmler, Dr. Rothenberger, and SS-Gruppenfuehrer named Streckenbach and SS-Obersturmbahnfuehrer named Bender. We offer this as prosecution's Exhibit 152 for identification. I will only read from it in part.\nIf your Honor, please, I thought that we had only offered part of this but it seems that we have offered all of it before, so we will withdraw this offer and I call your Honor's attention to Exhibit No. 16 in evidence which is at page 67 of Document Book 1a. Dr. Bergold has the German copy. This document expresses, as of that date, at least, the 18th of September 1942, the attitude so far as Polish people were concerned in Germany at that time, paragraph 2 stating the delivery of antisocial elements from the execution of their sentence to the Reichsfuehrer of the SS to be worked to death.", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "MR. DENNEY", "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2726, "page_number": "2184", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "Persons under protective arrest, Jews, gypsies, Russians, and Ukrainians, Poles with more than three-year sentences, Czechs and Germans with more then eight-year sentences, according to the decision of the Reich Minister for Justice, first of all, the worst anti-social elements among them just mentioned are to be handed over. I shall inform the Fuehrer of this through Reichsleiter Bormann.\" And then they continue talking about the administration of justice by the people, and, over in the last paragraph, number 14, \"It is agreed that a consideration of the intended aims of the government, for the clearing up of the Eastern problems, in the future, Jews, Poles, gypsies, Russian-Ukrainians, are no longer to be judged by the ordinary courts, so far as punishable offenses are concerned, but are to be dealt with by the Reichsfuehrer-SS. This does not apply to civil law suits, nor to Poles whose names are announced or entered in the German racial list.\" I think that is an example to which the Court's attention should be called at this time with reference to the way the Polish people were treated as early as 1942, and it is also worthy of note that they were denied the German judicial process, such as it was at that time, particularly with reference to the criminal courts. It does say that in civil law suits, it isn't applicable, but I should think so far as they were concerned they'd much rather be allowed the questionable benefit of German judicial processes as opposed to those of Mr. Himmler and his people.\nQ.You didn't know anything about that, witness?\nA.No.\nQ.So far as you knew, the Poles were always very well treated here?\nA.I never saw ill treatment of any kind, or myself ever heard about it.\nQ.You never heard of foreigners being thrown into concentration camps for minor offenses?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2727, "page_number": "2185", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "A.In my opinion, only for serious perpetrations, only for the same crimes which would cause Germans to be put there too.\nQ.In other words, they ought to get the same treatment as the German people?\nA.That is what I assumed.\nQ.The next document is 242, NOKW, which is a letter of 13 October 1941 which would be Exhibit, -\nTHE PRESIDENT: 152.\nMR.DENNEY: 152; yes, Your honor.\nQ. (Continuing) This letter was not written to the defendant, but it concerns him. It's written to the president of the District Labor Office in Westphalia, and it has to do with the assignment of workers to a factory, specifically, a drop--forge installation, to increase the manufacture of airplane engines. Perhaps you can help us with the signature?\nA.I can't read it. It is the armament Inspectorate, Army Defense District 6, according to the heading, and it states: \"By order\" and then there follow the names. The signature is not familiar to me.\nQ. hell, in any event, the parts with which -\nDR. BERGOLD:One moment. (Examining documents.)\nQ. (Continued) The second letter, the one dated 28 august 1941, signed by one Schultz-Bless, bears the heading on it \"Generalluftzeugmeister.\" The first letter indicates that the defendant has informed the Armament Inspection of this Wehrkreis, that they will need a certain number of workers to set up and develop a drop-forge to increase the manufacture of airplane engines, and the writer says that, for this purpose, \"a thousand more workers must be assigned to the firm by the end of this month.\" It states, in addition, that \"French prisoners of war will do.\" And he goes on further, and says: \"A direct use of Russian prisoners of war is out of the question.\"", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "MR." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2728, "page_number": "", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "In the second letter (he) indicates that:\n\"Up to 1 October 1941 Goering will place 80 - 100,000 French 2185 (a) prisoners of war at the disposal of the aircraft armament industry for their employment in production.\"", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2729, "page_number": "2186", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "And there's an interesting note down a little farther, that: \"The prisoners of war are to receive about 75% of the net-wages of German workers.\" Do you recall having been advised of this at the time?\nANo; that I cannot remember.At that time, both inAugust and in October, 1941, I had nothing to do with the question of manufacturing aircraft engines, nor can I recollect that at any time did I give information to that effect to the Armament Inspectorate. I consider that that's out of the question.\nQWell, that was the point I wanted to make. You've insisted that you had nothing to do with this prior to the time that Udet died, which was in November 1941, as I recall, and you became Generalluftzeugmeister on November 19 of that year, and yet here we find a letter from the Armament Inspection Office of Wehrkreis VI, saying that you are requesting laborers.\nAWell, I can't believe that I should ever have done that because this was a problem which didn't concern me at all. It doesn't state here that I'm supposed to have asked for workers. It merely says that the union of Buchum had received a special task from the Reich Air Ministry which had special priority, and now the Inspectorate continues to say that we're concerned with construction of a drop-forge for the increase of production of aircraft engines, which, at the time, was not one of my tasks.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2730, "page_number": "2187", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "QWell, but this was something that was being done at the request of the Supreme Commander of the Luftwaffe, who was Goering?\nAYes, but it didn't come to me. Something like that would have gone to Udet or his deputy.\nQWell, the man who wrote the letter here says that you have informed the Armament Inspection. He certainly would not dare to use your name if you didn't do it. He wasn't trying to sabotage you, was he? In 1941 things were pretty good.\nAThis could be some sort of a misunderstanding. Some other department might have used my name, that happened very often.\nQYes, your name seems to have been used a great deal.\nAYes, and what's more, I can prove it by means of these very instances where it was done wrongfully. Might I draw your attention to one more point that becomes obvious to me, and that is this 75% of average wages which is being mentioned. That isn't a little since prisoners of war were drawing their rations from the camps as well as any other rations they needed, whereas the German laborer with his net wages had to purchase his food, take care of his lodgings, and buy his clothes.\nQWell, you know that the Geneva Convention provides that you have to feed prisoners of war with exactly the same rations that you give your own troops, don't you?\nAYes, yes, and I assume that in addition to this, that was being done. That brings you to the reduction of wages to 75%. What this amounts to is that expenses for food, lodging and clothing would amount to only 25%.\nQOf course, we had testimony here by one of the Frenchmen to the effect that they were forced to pay for some of these items. However, I won't argue with you about it.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2731, "page_number": "2188", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "The next document, if Your Honors please, isNOKW-267, of which we don't have a German copy at the moment, but Dr. Bergold, we will get one this afternoon or tomorrow morning. We offer this as Prosecution Exhibit 153 for identification. This is a letter of 13 August 1943 which has to do specifically with the problem of the transportation of timber, and it is to be noted from the context of the letter that, \"The Forestry Office has recently transmitted the enclosed note to State Secretary Koerner and proposed to discuss the matter in the next meeting of the Central Planning and to bring about a decision.\" And Liebel says that he takes the liberty of bringing this to the attention of the defendant, and to point out that the removal of the difficulties will be of decisive importance for the armament industry. Then the alleged difficulties which are involved are stated on the next page. One of the notations has to do with civilian Russians, making available 7,000 civilian Russians for timber trade enterprises, 5,000 for mining timber trade, and 2,000 for the fibre wood industry.\nNow, there has been considerable discussion here as to whether or not the Central Planning was actually a part of the Four Year Plan. We have here a document which the Court has not seen before, which is NQKW260, which we offer as Prosecution Exhibit 154 for identification. This is signed by Goering, and there is a second Page - the German copy is being obtained, Dr. Bergold.\nTHE WITNESS:Is nothing going to be said about this one, the one that you have just submitted previously, because there we are concerned with the question of transport on the railways. At that time Hitler issued a special order of a temporary nature to the effect that we in the Central Planning Board should deal with the dropping off of rail transport fig ures; that we should take care of that.", "speakers": [ "THE WITNESS" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2732, "page_number": "2189", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "In the first place we were concerned with allocation of increased iron and timber allocations for the construction of rails, sleepers, and locomotives. This was a matter which only happened once and this letter of Liebel's, who belonged in the Speer office, deals with the affair. I just wanted to give you that explanation as to why it went to the Central Planning Board at all.\nQ.Well then, this was just an isolated instance. Now, in Exhibit 154 for identification, the first is a note signed by Goering and a copy of it was received by the defendant. Your initials appear on the letter of 7 September 1943, do they not?\nA.Correct.\nQ.And Goering says: \"I transmit enclosed my decree of 4 September 1943 as a supplement to my order of 22 April 1943 in respect to the Central Planning of the Four Year Plan. The Supreme Authorities, the High Command of the Army, the High Command of the Navy, the High Command of the Luftwaffe, the Military Commanders, the Reich Commissioners in the occupied territories, the Reich Protector, the Governor General, the Chiefs of the Civil Administration, the General Plenipotentiaries, Plenipotentiaries, and Special Plenipotentiaries for the Four Year Plan have received a copy of the decree.\"\nThen it is interesting to note the reference on the next page to the planning office, about which there has been some discussion here. This again is signed by Goering and says that it is a supplement to his decree regarding the Central Planning of the Four Year Plan with respect to the changes in ministerial powers occasioned by the Fuehrer decree of 2 September 1943 concerning the concentration of economy. The thing with which we are concerned principally is Central Planning and in order to secure the coordination of war needs in all branches of economy, I am setting up a Planning Office under the General Plenipotentiary for Armaments.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2733, "page_number": "2190", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "It will be at the disposal of the Central Planning for all its tasks. The tasks' and powers of the Planning Office will be fixed by the General Plenipotentiary for Armaments\"...who was Speer...\"who, with my consent, will appoint the Chief of the Planning office.\"\nAMay I give you an explanation with regard to this?\nQCertainly.\nAIn the first -\nTHE PRESIDENT:Let me inquire whether it needs any explanation? What does it tend to prove, Mr. Denney, anything?\nMR. DENNEY:Just that he said that the Central Planning board had nothing to do with the Four Year Plan, your honor. He made that statement on direct examination, and he also said that there was no connection between any of these ministries in the Central Planning board, and this decree has to do with the Planning Office under the Speer Armament ministry, and says that it will work in conjunction with the Central Planning Board.\nTHE PRESIDENT:All right.\nMR. DENNEY:It is a matter of minor moment, but as long as the point has been made, and we have the document I think it ought to be offered.\nTHE WITNESS:May I then, your honor, reply please?\nTHE PRESIDENT:Of course.\nMR. DENNEY:Certainly.\nA (Cont'd) At this time which is mentioned here and where it says the concentration of war economy, reference is made to the fact that civilian output under the minister Funk had been or was being transferred to Minister Speer. Goering now is giving authority to the Plenipotentiary for Armament Tasks in the Four Year Plan, who was Speer, to the effect that civilian production too is to be taken over by him.", "speakers": [ "THE WITNESS", "THE PRESIDENT", "MR. DENNEY", "Q", "A" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2734, "page_number": "2191", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "That, however, had nothing to do with the Central Planning Board. Speer, in his capacity as Armament minister, was the Plenipotentiary General for Armament Tasks in the Four Year Plan. Goering further decides that Minister Funk should join the Central Planning Board which, however, was also due to an order from Hitler, and I don't really know why Goering is repeating it on this occasion.\nThe Planning Office mentioned at the bottom was Speer's Planning Office, but Speer had decided right from the beginning that this department should simultaneously carry out the preparations for the meetings of the Central Planning Board in order to avoid the creation of some new special department. It was entirely a matter of economy. Actually that was the exact way in which I reported it at the time.\nQWell, Goering indicates that the Central Planning Board is part of the Four Year Plan in his memorandum, doesn't he, the first one?\nAYes, but that wasn't the situation as far as we wore concerned, in practice. otherwise, somehow I would have been making reports to Goering together with Speer, but all we did was report to Hitler. Only the reports for the Central Planning Board regarding such points as touched the Four Year Plan had led to it. Before the work of the Central Planning Board had actually begun to discuss all these matters with Goering, Speer said to me, \"We have got to put Goering up to date. It's a matter of courtesy, otherwise, he will feel that there is interference in his own sphere.\" And that was the reason that on one occasion there was a conference in his offices. I have already given you the date for it; it was in 1942, at the very moment when Hitler had given the order for the creation of the Central Planning Board.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2735, "page_number": "2192", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "MR. DENNEY:The next document, your Honor, is N0KW-180, which is a conference with Goering on 4 November 1943 at the Junkers plant in Dessau. Again we don't have a German copy of this. It is in the process of coming.\nDR. BERGOLD:Really, your Honors, I must ask Mr. Denney to see to these things in good time. It isn't making my task as a defense counsel easier if I get the approximate hint of what is going on. After all, I've got to see it myself. If consistently such quantities of documents are being submitted which I will maybe get at some future date, then I shall not be able to prepare my re-examination. For instance, I am still without the document mentioned yesterday afternoon which dealt with the conversation with Sauckel. I've got to have that.\nMR. DENNEY:If your Honor please, this business of not having copies is not unusual from our side. The sane thing has happened with Dr. Bergold. I think this is the fourth document that we haven't been able to give him of the many that we have submitted; and we're making every effort to get them. I hope to have them by the end of today's session, and he certainly will have ample opportunity to out any inquiries he has to the witness with reference to them. I've been very careful in the documents which have been submitted which haven't been given him. I've read everything in that has any bearing. I certainly don't propose to inconvenience him any more than is absolutely necessary just based on the physician problem of getting the documents.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Of course, the procedure isn't ideal but it nay be unavoidable. It leaves Dr. Bergold without much of an opportunity to examine the document in German and to plan his redirect examination if he wishes. I'm not blaming anybody. It is just a vice which is inherent in the size of the task. Would you be satisfied, Dr. Bergold, if you get the documents tonight, by the end of the afternoon?\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes, all right. But it is absolutely essential that I have them by the end of this afternoon, your Honor.\nTHE PRESIDENT:I'm sure every effort will be made to get them to you.", "speakers": [ "THE PRESIDENT", "DR. BERGOLD", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2736, "page_number": "2193", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "DR. BERGOLD:Thank you very much.\nBY MR. DENNEY:\nQ.Concerning Document 155, for identification. Do your notes show that on 4 November 1943 you were at a conference with Goering?\nA.That's right, yes, at the Junkers Works at Dessau.\nQ.Was there anyone else present?\nA.Yes, it was a very large circle of people who came from Goering's staff, and also a number of my gentlemen were there at the time. Then there were a few members of the Junkers Works. I can't give you the exact number of people. I would estimate that it amounted to about ten or twelve people altogether.\nQ.Now, here on page 6013 Goering is talking and he says, \"Give the Stalag commander my greetings and tell him I said the Stalag is the biggest racket in Germany and merely a camp where getaways are being organized wholesale. The men do not even have to bother to dig a tunnel since they can walk out freely in broad daylight. The Italians get beaten up when they do not work. If Reinicke cannot do the work\" - that is referring to General Reinicke, the head of the prisoners of war \"I shall dismiss him and get somebody else. I will not be bothered with it any longer. It is absolutely useless to take the Italians as soldiers for they report for duty, it is true, but then they bolt again. We need them here, however, as workers for the '100,000 man operation'. In the second place, why do we not get the machines? If I want to have them, I just have to occupy a factory by surprise.\"\nThen you speak. You say, \"There are no transportation facilities to make this possible. We have to let certain plants go on working in Italy, such as ball bearings, steel castings, and others, and we cannot take the people from there. The same applies to the technical sphere. The people there are working for us. All depends on our policy toward the Italians. I have ordered that they can be beaten up if they do not work. I have also given permission that Italians caught sabotaging be sentenced to death. If this measure is not desired by the higher author ities, which seems to be the case, we are powerless.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2737, "page_number": "2194", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "Then the Italians in the Reich will not be of any use to us.\"\nDo you recall ordering that Italians who didn't work should be beaten?\nANo, because I never gave that order.\nQWell, now, up to this time you were always talking to people whom you ranked. Now here you were telling Goering that you had given that order. We don't see Goering interrupting and saying \"No, no, you didn't give any such order.\"\nABut Goering doesn't know it at all. This is a question of pacifying Goering who previously had demanded equally severe measures. Never at any time has such an order been given.\nQWas Goering demanding that these people be beaten and be put to death, too?\nAIt states in the previous paragraph, \"The Italians are being beaten, and so forth,\" and subsequently we told him to pacify him, \"That's already happening. The most severe punishment is being threatened.\"\nQSo you didn't give the order. You were lying when you told Goering that?\nAYes. The order was never given, nor do I know who wrote this down at the time, nor whether it was ever said in this particular form. I'd rather like to doubt it.\nQWell, now, if you'll look over on the last page, which is just a few pages later, you'll notice that there is a note to you from Lt. Col. von Brauchitsch. He says, \"Forwarded herewith for your attention and further handling are the uncorrected stenographic notes on the conference at the Reich Marshal's office on 28 October 1943.\" And they are listed as \"Top Secret\", and you got the fourth copy. You put your initials on that down there, didn't you, at the bottom?\nAYes, I initialed the receipt of this letter from Brauchitsch.\nQYou received it on the 15th of November, about two weeks after it happened?", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2738, "page_number": "2195", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "A.No, it was dated the 12th of November, on which day it was written by Brauchitsch, and my initials are the 15th of November. That's three days later when it was put before me.\nQ.Well, that's what I said, that you initialed this 15 November, which was approximately two weeks after the date of the meeting.\nA.Yes, that is correct.\nQ.So you were lying to Hitler and to Goering when you said that?\nA.I believe that this is a different set of minutes than those of the Junkers meeting because, you know, there was another meeting at the Messerschmidt works. Maybe there is a third one, too, I don't know. There were several inspections carried out by Goering which had been summarized in such a report. It also says, you see, that it should be checked, and quite possibly later on it was looked through and checked, and maybe it was even altered. This is the copy which Brauchitsch sent along.\nQ.Well, I'm still asking you, did you say it?\nA.Well, I can't remember it. I can't remember having used these very words. I only know that were pacifying Goering and that we told him that everything was already being done and that he should not worry.\nEXAMINATION BY THE PRESIDENT:\nQ.You won't deny that you said this, will you\nA.I don't believe that I used these words; that I said it like that.\nQ.Well, then you do deny it?\nA.I am saying that approximately using the following sense we later reported to Goering when he said that severe measures ought to be adopted, namely, that we on our part or, rather, I mean some other source had already ordered measures in order to pacify him. We ourselves hadn't given any instructions.\nQ.Wait a minute. I don't care for your motives. I don't care why you said it or did not. Will you try to answer this question. Did you say what it says on this paper or did you not?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2739, "page_number": "2196", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "AThat I cannot remember having said in this way. The way it is put here in this document it isn't true.\nQWhat do you mean? The facts that you stated were not true?\nAI mean the contents of what I am supposed to have said in this document would be incorrect. It says that I am supposed to have given the order that there should be beatings and that likewise in the case of sabotage people were to be sentenced to death.\nQWe have had any number of instances where you told people who were subordinate to you many things that were not true. That isn't the question. Did you say this, if you know?\nAI couldn't have told Goering that because it wasn't the truth.\nQThat's hardly the test, is it, because you've pointed out to us a dozen instances in which you told people things that were not true about ordering people to be shot and beaten. You mean you couldn't have told Goering something that wasn't true?\nAWhat you are saying would appear to be correct. If I really said these words, but that is what I am doubting.\nQAll right, we'll leave it on the note of being doubtful then.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2740, "page_number": "2197", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "THE PRESIDENT:What I had in mind, I am not interested in Goering's statement, which has nothing to do with the issue here. You stated, \"If we do not provide the Italians with food, and tell them only these who fight and work for us will get food,\" and Goering interjects, \"That is what the Americans do.\" Do you find that?\nAI've just found it now, yes.\nQWhat do you suppose he meant?\nAI cannot recollect the words said at that time. It sounds as if he had been saying that the Americans were only feeding those who were working or fighting.\nQWas that the general impression? Did you believe that?\nAI never heard it in that form, nor did I think about it.\nQYou had no opinion about it?\nANo, no, I had no opinion about it. I have no means of judging it. May I perhaps in this connection say one more thing. You can see from the first page that this entire correspondence was handed on by me to the Chief of the GLC. This was done with regard to the fact that Brauchitsch makes the remark that it should be checked. I cannot tell you now whether this was re-drafted or not.\nMR. DENNEY:I omitted one of the GL conferences, which we now offer as Prosecution's Exhibit No. 156 for identification.\nBY MR. DENNEY:\nQWere you at the meeting on 21 July 1942?\nAYes. There was a meeting.\nQThis is one quotation from this meeting, a statement by the defendant. The last paragraph starting below the words \"I do not care.\" The defendant is speaking and he said, \"At the GLA, the question also arose whether such French labor as is needed in France, can be protected against the Sauckel drive. I have talked the matter over with Speer, and we have come to the conclusion that we can not promise any definite protection there because we are afraid that in that case the whole drive for skilled workers would be a failure. This drive has to get going first, and after all, there are still sufficient skilled workers in France.", "speakers": [ "A", "MR. DENNEY", "THE PRESIDENT", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2741, "page_number": "2198", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "Don't forget that not even 1,000,000 Frenchmen are here as PW's while we have 7 to 8 million soldiers. Therefore, the French are still in a very favorable position. But they must realize that they will be brought to Germany all together if they don't work hard enough at home.\"\nWhat was your idea of bringing all the Frenchmen to Germany to work?\nANo, no, once again we are concerned with prisoners of war being released, of which, of course, since several million had been taken prisoners; especially, as I had been talking to Speer, and he had an order from Hitler to the effect that at that time we should not slow down Sauckel with his block plans completely, something, of course, which we did later on.\nQYou still maintain these people were working for you voluntarily?\nAThose who were working in France, yes.\nQHow about the people who were working in Germany?\nAAt that time we were completely convinced they had been recruited voluntarily, if they were not prisoners of war. Prisoners of war, of course, had been placed at our disposal for work by the French government of Vichy, so that their employment was a legal matter.\nQYou say it was a legal matter. Did you regard the French government at Vichy as anything else You know what happened to Mr. Lavall?", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2742, "page_number": "", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "A.Yes, but you know after the war at the time the French Government of Petain was certainly the leading Government for us.\nQ.Well, I won't argue that question with you. When did you first learn that the people over here were not voluntary workers, the Frenchmen who were working, other than the prisoners of war?\nA.I cannot give you the exact date. What I know is that there was an agreement regarding the annual employment of the French workers with the French Government, for the purpose of working in Germany, which had been formulated. Naturally it can be assumed that these people who would withdraw were being rounded up and could not be regarded as volunteers, but they were people who by order of their own Government were 2198a were brought to us.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2743, "page_number": "2199", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "QWhen did you say you first learned that concentration camp workers were being used in the Luftwaffe as workers?\nAI cannot give you any exact dates on that.\nMR. DENNEY:Well, the next document, Your Honor, isNOKW 245, Exhibit No. 157. A particular matter here has to do with a speech by the defendant on page 5407 as follows:\n\"I told Sauckel that we will cooperate on all matters on the very spot, that we will get the thing done but not smash up anything that is producing for us, or is going to produce. He admitted that his men had acted wrongly. In the program there are 1886 airplanes which we want to deliver. We were to deliver 1790; 130 planes we want to deliver in addition, and I still hope to go beyond that figure. Out of this, the German side has to deliver a planned amount of 1769 planes. On February 20 it already delivered 1290 planes. So far no month was so favorable, especially if you consider that this month has three days less than a normal one. Already 521 fighter planes have been delivered against a planned number of 677. The figure is higher indeed than the plan, and we hope to be able to deliver still somewhat more.\n\"But we need certain components to be delivered by the French. Sauckel understood that he was wrong and promised to arrange this. We hope he will keep his promise; otherwise, I shall have to use the Reichsmarshal, and something will have to be done so that Sauckel will make up for it by the end of the month. Speer and myself are of the opinion that he must be incorporated somehow in the Central Planning in order to secure manpower for us as well as the material. Now we got the first workers in November; prior to that date none at all. Of course, by taking into account the many fluctuations he arrives at phantastic figures. We try to diminish the fluctuations with the aid of Himmler and Ley.\n\"The military physicians are put in to examine the men. I have proposed that a man who leaves his working place more than three times a year should be put into a detention camp, and released only when he stays on the very spot. In the Purchasing program we have 20,000 such pigs who are constantly roaming; in our own plants 30,000; in the Armyprogram alone 100,000 which do nothing else but run away.", "speakers": [ "A", "MR. DENNEY", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2744, "page_number": "2200", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "They run away, contact the next firm, take with them a few useful things in food and clothing, if possible, and away they are. Those fellows would be most pleased if they could report themselves as unemployed at the labor office. The best workers we have are the concentration camp inmates. That is our elite.\"\nHow many concentration camp workers did you have working for you at that time in February 1943?\nAThat I cannot tell you.\nQWell you are calling them the elite of your working program, did you not?\nAI am just thinking it over. This cannot be connected with the concentration camps.\nQHow did you use Himmler and Ley in connection with the fluctuation of German workers? You seem to call on Mr. Himmler in several instances.\nANo, we did not do that.\nQNow Goering was at this meeting too, and also Jeschonnek, who was the Chief of Staff?\nAYes. Only there is something which I must reconstruct in my mind in reference to that meeting. The first question means that Sauckel had interfered with the block hours, and as I am saying he realized his mistake when he was trying to put them right, since we had received parts from France. Let me say it did not really happen in reality, but there was the question of slackers, which was being touched on again. That concerns -- we are not concerned with the ordinary fluctuations, but only the people that were used, only slackers, those being people who kept running away, and the plan was Himmler's recommendation that extra rations above the normal food ration should only be given to such people if they really did work.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2745, "page_number": "", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "However, that proposal was turned down, because it would have meant changes in the administration of rations, and under no circumstances was one prepared to include the firms or plants in which these problems appeared, because from the First World War of 1914, bad 2200A experience had been made in this way.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2746, "page_number": "2201", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "Ley who had been included in our food program, because he had the welfare of these people in his charge through \"Strength and Joy\" and other organizations. And through intensifying that part of the work such people who came into that part of the program, or some who were rescued, were to be put into a different mood, which in turn was to result in improved output.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2747, "page_number": "2202", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "QYou were using Himmler then as early as 22 February 1943 in connection with these people; is that right?\nANo, no, I did not employ him or use him. I heard this from him, and in one of the meetings which have been submitted in the minutes, I myself made the suggestion that this system now ought to be employed; maybe that way we would get control of these shirkers. These shirkers who are being spoken of here are traitors who, according to our laws, could most certainly have been punished very severely. They are not ordinary Germany workers. They are abnormal German workers, people who neither wanted to do their duty for their country as soldiers nor as workers in this terrible war, and surely it is a matter of course that we would on our part be most hostile to these people and that we would not have any false pity for them. However, no measure was actually arrived at which could really have brought about or did bring about any changes in this connection.\nQYou say that, \"The best workers we have are the concentration camp inmates.\" What kind of concentration camp inmates were you speaking of?\nAAs I said, the Heinkel Camp at Oranienburg was the only one I knew of at the time, and I did not have any personal impression of the work done by these people, so that I really cannot imagine that I used this word concentration camp inmates, since I did not know anything about them and how they worked, and I cannot remember anything about another working column in another plant at that time.\nQYou certainly couldn't make the statement just based on Oranienburg where you say that you did not have any personal knowledge about what they did.\nANo, we must have misunderstood each other. I am denying that concentration camp inmates are being talked about at all in this connection, particularly since I myself could not imagine how they worked.\nAYou don't recall making this statement at all?", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2748, "page_number": "", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "ARegarding the concentration camp, no. That would not have corresponded to the truth. Our best workers were our German workers and I can only have mentioned somehow a special quota of German workers who were the very best, because we were very satisfied with their work.\n2202A", "speakers": [ "A" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2749, "page_number": "2203", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "QAs far as you know, the concentration camp inmates were all Germans too, weren't they?\nAThat I would assume, yes. They did not by any means take a place ahead of other German workers. That would be absolutely wrong. I say it was the other way around. Our German workers, the ones who were not in concentration camps, were certainly the ones who were by far the better.\nMR. DENNEY:Note that General Vorwald was at that meeting, Your Honors, and I neglected to mention Colonel Brauchitsch, who said that he had never heard anything about beatings or any employments of any foreign workers, was at two of the prior meetings, and also General Vorwald was at two of those which I shall call to the Court's attention.\nTHE PRESIDENT:We'll take the customary recess.\nTHE MARSHAL:The Tribunal is in recess for fifteen minutes.\n(A recess was taken)", "speakers": [ "A", "THE PRESIDENT", "MR. DENNEY", "Q", "THE MARSHAL" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2750, "page_number": "2204", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "THE MARSHAL:Tribunal No. 2 is again in session.\nQ (By Mr. Denney): Witness, just before the recess reference was made to the Vichy Government, don't you know that the Vichy Government that dealt with the Third Reich was nothing but a puppet government which was forced upon them by Hitler and the rest and they were made under duress to consent to the various impositions which Germany wanted to force upon them?\nA.I didn't know that.\nQ.Well, you knew that you hadn't signed any peace treaty with France at that time?\nA.Yes, I knew that.\nQ.When did you find out that the Vichy Government was nothing but a puppet government?\nA.That was never told me. My personal regard for Marshall Petain was considerable, and I never hold him to be a puppet nor did I know through which means this government was formed.\nQ.Well, you knew from meetings of the Central Planning Board as late as February of 1944 that Sauckel was going over and telling Laval what should be done with reference to French workers?\nA.Yes, there were conferences between Laval and Sauckel.\nYou certainly knew that you were practically at bayonet's point to foreign these people to come over to Germany.", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "A.", "Q." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2751, "page_number": "2205", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "A.No; I didn't see it that way at the time. Right at the end, I saw that the French Government: that is, in 1944, was forcing it's citizens to do things they didn't want to.\nQ.Well, throughout these meetings that we have in evidence here, you were telling about how the French hated the Germans, and how they were doing things that were opposed to Germany's best efforts, and you even said in one instance that had you been there, you would have acted exactly the same way. Now, do you think these people came-\nA.Yes; I remember that very well. I spoke of the young men, with hot nationalist feelings, for which I have complete understanding, but in the meantime, in the year 1943 I believe, and not all at once, but piecemeal, the French attitude changed towards Germany. In the first years after the Armistice, their attitude toward us was good, and I have many proofs that the relations were very friendly at first. I can't say what contributed to changing this attitude, but certainly one of the main reasons was the fact that Germany's military position deteriorated, and that became obvious for the first time after Stalingrad.\nQ.You still say that all of these French workers came over voluntarily?\nA.At first, yes. Later they were forced to do so by their own government. To what extent these people were volunteers and when they stopped being volunteers, -- that I can't say.\nQ.Well, you say later that they were forced to come by their own government. Now you know that the only act that the Laval Government could do was something that the German Government wanted it to do.\nA.I am not informed about that in detail. I never had anything to do with that government myself.\nQ.Well, you knew that you never concluded a peace treaty with them for the sole purpose of holding it over their heads. Germany had occupied their country, first in part and then completely. The Wehrmacht was running wild all over France, from the border down to the Pyrenees.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2752, "page_number": "", "date": "19 February 1947", "date_iso": "1947-02-19", "text": "A.That was known to me, and both I and several witnesses, have stated that we considered this condition to be false, and thought that a peace treaty should be drawn up in the interests of both countries.\n-2205(a)", "speakers": [ "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2753, "page_number": "2206", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "Q.Well, now you say that at first they came voluntarily, and then they didn't come voluntarily. When did the involuntary exodus begin?\nA.I cannot say that from my own knowledge.\nQ.You don't have any idea as to when it started? You made a distinction between two conditions, one which is necessarily inconsistent with the first, and if you knew that the second existed, it would seem that you could tell when it began to exist.\nA.No: I cannot say that, because I myself had no immediate insight into the entire matter.\nQ.You've heard one French witness here testify, who was a prisoner of war, that he worked upwards of three years in a Luftwaffe factory?\nA.I heard that here. Nevertheless, I had no personal experience of what he described here.\nQ.You certainly were in a position to have the knowledge. You were the second highest man in the Luftwaffe.\nA.That has nothing to do with that.\nQ.Well, don't you think it has anything to do with it? You were in a position to have the knowledge, if you had looked.\nA.No; I was not. When I went to the factories the only possibility I had was to speak to some extent with the people I met there. I couldn't have spoken to everyone anyway, because there wasn't enough time for that. Then, if someone had come to me and said, \"We have complaint\", then I might have found out something, but no one turned to me with a complaint, not even when I asked how things were going and whether they had any troubles.\nQ.Well, you've told the Court in direct examination that you were rather a minor participant in the affairs so far as the Third Reich was concerned: I have here some photographs which perhaps you can identify for us as to the events and the dates. This is in there -- six photographs here, Your Honor, and we ask that these he marked Exhibit 158 for Identification.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2754, "page_number": "", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "Now, there's one on top here with Hitler and Galland, and then there's one apparently taken at night, of you and Himmler, and someone else seated at a table, and then there's another one in which there are some civilians present where you're at some sort of a meeting.\n2206-a", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2755, "page_number": "2207", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "JUDGE PHILLIPS:We only have four.\nMR. DENNEY:Perhaps I can see which ones Your Honors have, and then I can arrange to get the others.\nThis 158 is four parts instead of six, and the remarks about the photo of the civilians at the conference and one with General Galland are withdrawn.\nQ. (Continued) Can you tell us on what occasions these photographs were taken?\nA.Yes; I can. But let me take as the first, the one where I am shaking hands with Hitler. Next to me is Keitel, is standing on the other side, Himmler. Then, to the right there is one of Hitler's adjutants. This is in front of the Zeughaus, in Berlin, on one of the memorial days in spring. All of the generals who were present in spring were ordered to return at that time. In connection with the celebration there wan a parade, and you can see in the picture how this parade was marching by. Now Hitler is greeting the people who are standing there. Goering was not there; consequently, I, as the senior Luftwaffe officer, attended when this company marched by. On this occasion, Hitler greeted all his higher officers, ministers, and so forth. I can't tell you the year. It could have been 1942 or '3.", "speakers": [ "A.", "JUDGE PHILLIPS", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2756, "page_number": "2208", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "Then there is a picture where the Party Badge is prominently displayed. Hitler stands to the left, in the foreground, and I stand as second on his right with my Marshal's baton raised. I assume this was on the occasion of one of the speeches to the Reserve Officers of the branches of the Army which took place twice a year. Roughly 20,000 young officers attended and they were addressed by Hitler for roughly two hours on their duties as officers. On this occasion, too, as a matter of principle, the higher officers were present, and in view of my rank I am sitting there in the first row; namely my rank as Field Marshal. I can't tell what the date of this was. It was certainly before 1944. The Luftwaffe always provided a contingent of six to seven thousand officers on these occasions. Goering never came to these addresses. Consequently I or one of our other Generals always took part.\nNow, there are two more pictures. One of them seems to have been taken in peacetime. I am wearing the leather band over my shoulder which was done away with after the war started. So far as I recall that was the inauguration of a winter welfare work. On this occasion, too, all the officers of the rank of General of the Berlin garrison had to take part.\nThe last picture, I am quite to the right, then Keitel, then in the background two of Hitler's adjutants, then Hitler himself, to the left is a large number of Generals. This too could be the inauguration of a winter relief program. This must have been relatively early in the war, but not before 1940. Hitler is in civilian clothes here, which, during the last four years never were. If the whole place had been photographed you would have seen in all of the pictures that all general officers took part in this on orders from Hitler. I do not believe that there is any proof of any probative value in those pictures as to what my relations with various personages were.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2757, "page_number": "2209", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "Q.Well, that is for the Court to determine, as to the probative value. I merely offer them to show that at certain times you were certainly well up front along with Himmler, Keitel, Raeder and Hitler. You certainly didn't go up there just to have your picture taken?\nA.No, I never did that. You notice the other gentlemen in the first row besides those who were mentioned. Besides in 1940 Germany had a total of twelve Field Marshals who were of the highest military rank.\nMR. DENNEY:At this time I would like to hand Dr. Bergold the German copies of certain exhibits which he does not have. The first one isNOKW-267; the next one is NOKW-180; and the third is NOKW-260. Then we also have 908-PS to distribute to everyone, including the German copies. With the delivery of these, Dr. Bergold will have all of the documents which we have not been able to furnish him copies of earlier today.\n(Documents distributed)\nDo you have them all now, Dr. Bergold?\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes, I do, thank you.\nQ. (By Mr. Denney) This next document isR-134which we offer as prosecution's exhibit 159 for identification. This letter reached the defendant through rather a circuitous course. It is a letter written by Terboven to Goering in May of 1942, and then from Goering was sent by his adjutant, Brauchitsch, to Milch.\nTerboven was the Reich Commissioner for Norway, was he not? Do you recall who Terboven was?\nA.Yes, I know.\nQ.Well, will you tell us?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2758, "page_number": "2210", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "A.The Reich Commissioner for Norway.\nQ.Norway was where you served as a commander of an Air Fleet, wan it not?\nA.In the first part of the war, yes.\nQ.When was that, in April and May 1941?\nA.I can tell you exactly in a moment. Norway wan occupied on the 9th and on the evening of the 12th I received the order to take over the Fifth Air Fleet. In the days that followed it was decided that the Air Fleet was to be stationed in Oslo in Norway. Then on the 16th of April I flew to Norway and returned on the 7th of May.\nQ.Well, Terboven writes to Goering: \"Esteemed Reichsmarshal: Attached to this, I forward you an explosive device, which is new according to my knowledge, and which, issued by the Secret Service, an can be construed from the attached copy and translation of the English instructions, servos exclusively for the purpose of sabotage of airplanes.\n\"Several days ago on an island west of Bergen, we have flushed out a Norwegian sabotage unit, which was trained by the Secret Service, and have found during this, extensive stores of sabotage instruments, some of them of a new kind, among which poison and bacteria can probably be found, and which, as far as they are not known, have been forwarded today to the Reich Security Main Office (RSMA) for closer examination.\n\"Besides other tasks, this sabotage unit was to begin with their sabotage work with the explosive devices, of which a sample is available on Sola and Herdla; this can be construed from found written directives. Since it must be assumed that similar actions are under way on airfields of the remaining European coast, and assuming, that a means of sabotage, actually unknown until now, is in question here, I forward it to you by the fastest means in order to give you the opportunity to issue the appropriate warning order.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2759, "page_number": "", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "\"Unfortunately, two especially deserving officers of the Security Police were killed in the fight against the sabotage unit. We buried 2210-a them this morning at about 1000 hours in the heroes' cemetery in Bergen.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2760, "page_number": "2211", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "\"On the same day, and at the same hour, 18 Norwegians were shot on my order; these had been captured some time previously in the attempt to go to England illegally.\n\"Also on the same day, the entire community, which granted a hiding place to the sabotage unit, was burned down, and the population was deported. All males were sent to a German concentration camp, without their families receiving any notification about it, the women were sent to a female forced labor camp in Norway, and the children, not capable of working, to a children's home. Heil Hitler, Yours Obiediently, signed Terboven.\" And it's to Reichsmarchal Hermann Goering in Berlin.\nThat was then sent to the State Secretary of Air and the Inspector General, the defendant, in his office at the Reich Air Ministry, and he has initialed the front part of the buck slip which, Brauchitsch, then a Major, used, and Brauchitsch, concerned only apparently with the matter of the new explosive and not with the people who had been murdered, says \"I am enclosing a copy of a letter by Reich Commissioner Terboven to the Reich Marshal about an airplane bomb generated with air pressure (sample is in possession of Dr. Fischer L.C. 7). It is requested that report and the counter measures instituted be sent here for the Reich Marshal. Dr. Fischer has received a copy of the letter. Signed Brauchitsch, Major.\"\nThen in the lower left-hand part the defendant has written:", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2761, "page_number": "2212", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "\"To be returned GLC (the Technical Department). I have given orders that this be submitted to me. Communication with the Reich Marshal is reserved to the Chiefs of Departments and myself.\nWhat did you do when you heard that eighteen Norwegians were shot because they were trying to escape to go to England?", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2762, "page_number": "2213", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "A.I had nothing to do with that question and was unable to do anything, but I was to concern myself with the question that was put to me under the sabotage plan -- and to issue instructions for the necessary counter measures to all places where German airplanes were located. We had many airplane casualties that were not explained at that time; for example, the death of Minister Todt, and many others; and here for the first time we received a communication from Norway about this bomb. Shortly thereafter we received a second one from the Mainland. These were about bombs that reacted to air pressure. That is, they could be set for five hundred meters. Then when the airplane had reached five hundred meters altitude, the bomb exploded and everyone in the airplane was killed. From this letter I could not see at all what other individual acts of sabotage had actually been committed in Norway, nor could I see what these individual persons had done.\nThe entire problem did not fall within my sphere, as I had been absent from Norway for quite a while and had nothing to do with the troops stationed there. Moreover the report on the matter was in the hands of my superior.\nQ.You regarded an attempt to escape as being a heroic thing, didn't you?\nA.No, but that did not concern me.\nQ.Well, you concerned yourself with other things that didn't concern you. Wernigerode Factory, which you said didn't make any thing that you used and which wasn't under you, you gave them advice about how to cut the rations.\nA.We were concerned with this factory to the extent that it provided the Luftwaffe with molding material; and I had to know whether the deliveries of this material were meeting our demands or not. Thus, technically, I did have some concern with this matter. I request that this matter may be discussed here at noon; and I'd like to make a remark about Wernigerode if I may.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2763, "page_number": "", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "Q.Just a moment. Let's confine ourselves to this. You may make any remarks about Wernigerode you wish.\n2213 a", "speakers": [ "Q." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2764, "page_number": "2214", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "A.Yes.\nQ.Now, it says here that the males were all sent to a German concentration camp. You said that you didn't know who was going into concentration camps.\nDR. BERGOLD:One moment. Your Honors, for the sake of the record I should like to have it made clear what year the defendant gave as the period of his service in Norway. He stated only the months; and I should like the Court to ascertain what the year was, whether 1941 or 1942.\nTHEWITNESS: 1940 was the year that I was in Norway; and this letter is dated 1942.\nMR. DENNEY:There is no contention made that he was in Norway at the time that this letter was written. He obviously from the records was State Secretary and Inspector General and had his office in the Reich Air Ministry where he couldn't very well be if he were commanding an air fleet in Norway.\nQ.I am just trying to inquire into his mental processes with regard to receiving this advice from your superior officer with reference to the fact that eighteen people had been murdered in Norway where he had served.\nA.I can only repeat that I had nothing to do with this question and had no opportunity of interceding in this matter nor of undertaking anything.\nQ.Well, let's get at it directly.\nEXAMINATION BY THE PRESIDENT:\nQ.Do you approve of it?\nA.No, I do not.\nQ.Do you approve of it when you heard about it?\nA.I never approved if a person who undertook something for his land was condemned to death. It was my view that even if the law provided the death penalty for members of one's own country, in the event of members of a foreign country the whole question should be postponed until the conclusion of peace.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2765, "page_number": "", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "Q.Then you believe that the Norwegians had a right to try to escape?\nA.Of course.\nQ.And that they shouldn't have been shot for doing something that they had a right to do?\nA.Yes.\n2214 a", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2766, "page_number": "2215", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "Q.Did you say anything about it?\nA.In my circle of close friends we always spoke in this way.\nQ.You just kept it among your close friends; you didn't voice any protest?\nA.There was no opportunity for us to do so openly.\nQ.And this wrong was committed by a force of which you were the leading member?\nA.It was committed by a German who was the German Reich Commissioner for Norway, in other words, the man high up in the German Executive.\nQ.About as high up as you were?\nA.There's no real direct comparison here. In onesense he was higher than I was.\nCROSS EXAMINATION (Continued) BY MR. DENNEY:\nQ.Did you make any complaint about the male population being sent to a German concentration camp?\nA.No, I could only have turned to Goering as my superior and ho had this letter himself. I don't believe there is any army in the world where the subordinate can advise his superior about a matter that this superior already knows, because he has already been informed in writing and can make a complaint himself.\nQ.Well, you certainly advised Hitler in March 1943 about what a mess he was making of things over in Russia, didn't you, without any invitation? If I recall, you said you were with him from about 8:30 p.m. until 3:30 in the morning.\nA.Yes. That's so; but this was something quite different. That was something that I only did once; but I exceeded my authority, by speaking of matters that affected the life or death of the whole nation. I did not give Hitler instructions but told him what my personal opinion was. Of course, I could not give him instructions of any sort; but I knew that such a thing could only be done once.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2767, "page_number": "", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "Thereafter it was no longer possible for me to have a conference with him about matters that did not fall within my sphere.\n2215 a", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2768, "page_number": "2216", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "QWell, you talked out of turn about a war that Germany had started and which was going badly ten months later than this; but at this time you wouldn't even bother to mention to Goering that eighteen people had been murdered and that they were sending men to a German concentration camp; that their families didn't receive any notification about it; that women were being sent to a female forced labor camp and that children not capable of working were being sent to a workers' home, and you can imply from that that those who could work were made to work someplace.\nAI can only reiterate that Goering, my superior, had himself received this letter and had sent me the copy of it with a specific military order as to what I was to do. I couldn't normally tell Goering about something he know about already.\nQYou said you could go and discuss things with Goering. You remember that order that you said you had him sign; that you told him afterwards that you had talked to Hitler about him without his consent; and that Goering forgot those things. It certainly would seem you could bring to his attention that perhaps all was not as it should be up in Norway. Did you make any inquiry about what was being done in other places?\nALet me say again Goering himself had this letter. Once or twice a month at least Terceven reported to Goering and Hitler. I couldn't come myself with all the problems that come up, no matter how unpleasant they were.\nQYou got the letter and the only thing that you concerned yourself with was the bomb?\nAThat was the order I had received; and I as a soldier had to carry out that order.\nMR. DENNEY:I have no further questions.", "speakers": [ "A", "MR. DENNEY", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2769, "page_number": "2217", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "THE PRESIDENT:Before he starts, Mr. Denney, I have some photostats here in German of Exhibit No. 133 which is of no use to me.\nRE-DIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. BERGOLD:\nQ.Witness, I turn first to the Exhibit No. 908, Exhibit No I believe, 132. This is the Frank letter to Sauckel of 21 November 1943. Did this letter ever reach you?\nA.No.\nDR. BERGOLD:Your Honor, I should like to point out for the record that from the paragraph after No. 12 the Exhibit proves that Frank's letter to Sauckel is a letter of complaint and that this needed a different treatment. I come now to Exhibit No. 133,NOKW 352, This is concerned with the address made by Sauckel on the occasion of the Gauleiter congress on 5 and 6 February 1943. I would like to ask, is Mr. Denney in a position to give us the original again or does the Secretary General have it? If I cannot have it now, I can postpone this until tomorrow.\nMR. DENNEY:I do not have it now, Your Honor.\nMR. BERGHOLD:I would be grateful if I could have it for tomorrow morning.\nTHE PRESIDENT:What was the copy I just gave you, which was the photostatic copy?\nMR. DENNEY:He is asking for the original.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Wasn't it the photostatic copy, too?\nDR. BERGOLD:I wanted the original to show it to the witness.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Why if you have the photostatic copy is not that sufficient?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "MR. BERGHOLD", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2770, "page_number": "", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "DR. BERGOLD:No, that is not sufficient because it is a matter here of certain notations and marks he made and we need to know the color of that letter.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Will the Secretary General at the opening of court tomorrow morning bring with him Exhibit No. 133. That will not be the original, will it?\nMR. DENNEY:I think we can relieve the Secretary General of the burden because he already has his photostatic copy and we will undertake 2217a to produce the original at 9:30 in the morning.", "speakers": [ "MR. DENNEY", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2771, "page_number": "2218", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "THE PRESIDENT:That is the original document.\nDR. BERGOLD:I thank Mr. Denney and the Court.\nBY DR. BERGOLD:\nQ.Witness, I come now to Exhibit No. 49,NOKW 287. This is the document that was submitted to you yesterday by the prosecutor regarding the \"workday\". I show it to you again, witness, and I will ask you to answer the question whether this document has anything to do with the length of the work day in the Luftwaffe industry or of any special branch.\nA.No. Is thatNOKW 287?\nQ.Exhibit No. 49 from the Book 2-C of the Prosecution. This is the passage regarding which Mr. Denney spoke at some length, the passage dealing with the length of the working day. Witness, is this document with the work day in the Luftwaffe industry?\nA.No, it is concerned with the protection of industry. At the top just under the address it says \"re: protection of industry,\" and I just read through it and it is perfectly clear that only the protection of industry was here concerned for which a 84 hour week had been ordered. From the beginning of the war the personal pronunciation is used, but that again is the ministerial style. The phrase \"from me\" means \"from the GL\" and the indication for \"Udet\" means my predecessor. The industry work at that time was 48 or 54 hours a week, in 1942.\nQ.Witness, why did these protection of industry require 84 hours a week? Was that the real period of work?\nA.No, that was no real period of work but the period of preparation for work was here included.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2772, "page_number": "", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "To a certain extent these people were on guard 84 hours a week, including Sunday, of twelve hours a day. On that there were always two shifts, with one taking relieving the other. In the factory they had their living quarters, in other words, a large number of these people were living there, and they stood guard exactly as they do in a military guard. For two hours they pulled guard there and then for four 2218a hours they could rest, so that the 84 hours mentioned here were of no excessive demand.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2773, "page_number": "2219", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "This is not 84 hours work at the machines. The fire service was included here also, which always had to stand by.\nQ.Witness, did you order this work day, and, if you did, how could you have done so?\nA.As I said, this industry protection was ordered by my predecessor at the beginning of the war. In 1941 I took that over and continued that arrangement. The directive was not an independent one but was one within the general regulations for the industry as a whole, issued by the competent authorities; so as many of these persons were to be conscripted into the army, a new reserve was required to finally bring the number up to a basic total of, namely, 2500 to 3000 men. I mention in conclusion that these men also carried out Security Service, that is, if work was not being done, guards went through the factory and where secret manufacturing was being carried on they placed a special guard, even during the day, so that espionage or sabotage would not be possible.\nQ.Witness, I come now to Exhibit No. 143, NOKW 195. This is a conference with Goering on 28 October 1943, which my esteemed colleague of the prosecution put to you, yesterday in which Goering made the proposal that army units should capture men in Holland. Do you know whether this measure was carried out?\nA.I never heard that and so far as I know we never received any allotment of Dutchmen, nor do I believe that the local officers would have obeyed such an order from Goering.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2774, "page_number": "", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "DR BERGOLD:Your Honor, on this point I should like to refer the Court to the regulation of the IMT, because the time is so short I have not been able to find the passage, but from Steinbauer's dissenting opening plea for Seyss-Inquart I discovered that it was proved before the IMT that it was only in the autumn of 1944 that the Wehrmacht forcibly removed persons from Holland, in connection with the Anglo-American invasion Moreover, this document which I just got today is so large that I must reserve for 2219a myself the right to return to it tomorrow.", "speakers": [ "DR BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2775, "page_number": "2220", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "Now I come to Exhibit No. 135,NOKW 364. This refers to the assignment of three hundred Americans", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2776, "page_number": "2221", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "Q.Witness, Lange says here, \"This morning representatives of the firms Dernier-Oberpfaffenhofen told me that 300 Americans who were to be employed there had refused to work.\" Witness, what do the German words \"Die eingesetz werdenrsollten\"-- who were to be employed\"-- mean? Does that mean that they were already working or does it mean at that moment it was being planned that they should be employed?\nA.That means that it was being planned to use them.\nDR. BERGOLD:Your Honors, the phrase \"werden sollen\" means in German that something now is planned for the future. It does not refer to an already completed fact.\nBY DR. BERGOLD:\nQ.Witness, on 20 June you resigned; is that right?\nA.Yes.\nQ.Where were you on the 19, 20th, and 21st of June 1944?\nA.On the 19th of June I was in the Reich Air Ministry, but the Jaegerstab did not meet there but in Tempelhof. I was not in Tempelhof. Then on this day Speer telephoned me and told me that we were to meet Hitler on the 20th. Then the next morning I flew to Salzburg and the meeting between Hitler, Goering and Speer took place. We went by car to Obersalzburg. On the 21st I was in Berchtesgaden.\nQ.Witness-\nA.On the 22nd I was in Berchtesgaden. On the 23rd I was also in Berchtesgaden. On the 24th I was in Austria. I was in Austria also on the 25th.\nQ.Witness-", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2777, "page_number": "", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "A.It was only on the 27th that I returned to Berlin.\nQ.Witness, before you resigned your office, did you find out that it was intended to use American prisoners of war for work?\nA.No, never. That would have struck me because in all regulations in this matter basically and in principle all Americans and British were excepted. That was always emphasized.\nQ.Witness, in the opinion of the Prosecution, you put your initials \"MI\" on this report. Does that mean that you read this report?\n2221a", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2778, "page_number": "2222", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "A.No, I never read the verbatim record of anything during these years. For office reasons they were put on my desk every morning when they came in. I then put my initials on them, and my secretary then knew that the report could be passed on or could be filed.\nQ.Thank you. Witness, I come now toNOKW-418, Exhibit No.136. This concerns your statements to General Gablenz and General Reinecke regarding the punishment of Frenchmen. Likewise, with the Reichsfuehrer SS, you should get in touch with him about this matter. Was this directive ever implemented on your part?\nA.No, I can remember that Gablenz frequently after I had exploded, pointed out to me as my friend what I was doing, laughed at my behavior and said, \"Today you blew up again,\" and then when I was surprised at that he told me the details.\nDR. BERGOLD:Unfortunately, a small part of this document is lacking in my copy, which the Prosecution gave me. I have it only up to page 360, and I shall be obliged if I could have the appendix, so that I can return to it tomorrow. This is the passage in which Poles and Dutchmen are discussed, but it is unfortunately missing from my copy.\nBY DR. BERGOLD:\nQ.Witness, in DocumentNOKW-407, Exhibit 137, there is mention of an explosion in France in the Arado Plant. Can you tell me what this is all about?\nA.Yes. I remember the case. This was a hydroplane, an Air-sea rescue plane which was to save crews that had bailed out into the sea. Just before it was about to take off, one of the cylinders exploded. It was a bomb with a time fuse. It was clearly a case of sabotage, sabotage being the worst thing that a pilot can confront.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2779, "page_number": "", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "There wore cases of sabotage in the first world war also, but, God be praised, they were infrequent, and in the first years of this war there were only very few cases of sabotage. Now, around this time, the number of sabotage cases increased, and it was particularly unpleasant in the question of those mines that have been described previously which made airplanes explode in midair. I believe that no pi 2222a lot in the world is not filled with great bitterness when he hears of such a mean, dastardly action.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2780, "page_number": "2223", "date": "19 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-19", "text": "A flier has other and better ways of losing his life, more normal ways.\nQWitness, I come now toNOKW-406, Exhibit 138. This is the affair in France in which you ordered Gablenz to call up Toennes. Do you still recall who this man Toennes was?\nAI cannot remember the name myself, but he must have been in the so-called liaison office in Paris, where there was a certain liaison with the French aircraft industry which was working toward cooperation between Germany and France.\nQWitness, you spoke of the new Heinkel Works in the East. Do you know where that was to be cuilt? Was it ever put into operation?\nAThe reason why it was to be located there was to escape from the combing area of the most, and I recall that it was to be fuilt somewhere in the area of Kielce in Poland, where the conditions were for some reason favorable. The GL was not in charge of picking the location. That was a matter that the factory took care of. The construction was started. However, as far as I know, it was not concluded because the area of Kielce was full of partisans. There were a few Germans from the factory who were sent to that area ahead of time, and they were killed. Consequently, the factory had no desire to go to that area and gave up the whole plan.\nQWitness, I came toNOKW-408.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Which we shall take up at 9:30 in the morning.", "speakers": [ "A", "THE PRESIDENT", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2781, "page_number": "", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "Take 25, page 1, 1630 to 1635, March 19, 1947, Hoxsie (Simha)-AK\nDR. BERGOLD:I have a request, that we may finish tomorrow, I ask permission to call the witnesses Vorwald and Reinecke tomorrow at eleven to be heard in the matter of these G.L. meetings, and Reinccke to be heard in the matter whether the defendant ever either directly or indirectly spoke with him in connection with the treatment of French prisoners.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Do you want these witnesses at eleven o'clock whether you have finished or not with your indirect examination of the defendant?\nDR. BERGOLD:I believe that I shall be through with my redirect examination at eleven. Perhaps first of all only the witness Vorwald should be called.\nTHE PRESIDENT:I think, we had better wait until you have finished your examination of the defendant, and then we will have them brought to the courtroom. It may be in by eleven. We will wait until you have finished.\nDR. BERGOLD:Thank you.\nTHE MARSHALL:This Tribunal is in recess until 0930 hours tomorrow morning.\n(The Tribunal adjourned until 20 March 1947, at 0230 hours.)\n2223(A) Official transcript of the American Military Tribuinal II in the matter of the United States Of America, against Erhard Milch, defendant, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 20 March 1947.", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHALL", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2782, "page_number": "2224", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "Justice Toms presiding.\nTHE MARSHAL:Persons in the courtroom will please find their seats.\nThe Honorable, the judges of Military Tribunal II.\nMilitary Tribunal II is now in session. God save the United States of America and this honorable Tribunal.\nThere will be order in the Court.\nERHARD MILCH -- Resumed REDIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. BERGOLD:\nQ.Witness, I now come to DocumentNOKW 408, Exhibit 139, at the end you spoke about Friedrichshafen, and you say that the directors Schneider and Berger should be sent to a concentration camp as soon as they become obstructive. Who were Schneider and Berger? Were they German citizens?\nA.Yes, they were. They were directors of Dornier.\nQ.Witness, did you cause anything in that direction?\nA.No.\nQ.You had a special court, did you not?\nA.Yes.\nQ.Would that have been competent, to sentence people for sabotage?\nA.Yes, it would.\nQ.Did you order any proceeding?\nA.No.\nQ.Witness, Document No. KW 409, Exhibit 140: You are speaking again of the difficulties arising in the French industry, and you say that sabotage might occur. You then say \"I would ask that I should be made the military commander in that case; then I would have fifty percent of the employees shot and the rest would be beaten.\" Did you apply to your superior officer at any time to become a military commander?\nA.No.\nQ.Witness, a number of documents have been offered dealing with the question of slackers. You say that you wished to see Himmler about that, or the SD, because of the treatment these people.", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "A.", "Q." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2783, "page_number": "2225", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "Did you at any time speak to Himmler about slackers?\nA.No.", "speakers": [ "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2784, "page_number": "2226", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "Q.Can you tell us on what days you saw Himmler during the war? The other day you gave us the whole figure, which was seven times. Can you give us the various days on which you saw him?\nA.Yes, I can. In 1939 on the 2nd of May; in 1940, 15th of March; 1941, 17 March and 17 June.\nQ.What did you discuss on those occasions?\nA.In 1938 matters concerning personnel, people from the Ministry who had got into trouble with the police. Also on March 15 in 1940, on the 17th of March in 1941, I did not put down what I talked to him about; but on the 17th of June I again put down \"Personal questions.\" In 1942 I didn't see him at all. In 1943 I saw him on the 12th of April with Speer.\nQ.What did you discuss at that time?\nA.I cannot say exactly what this was about. I didn't make a note of it at that time. That was very brief as far as I was concerned. I just greeted him and went away very quickly. On 20 November in 1943 I saw him for some time. That was in Breslau where Hitler was addressing cadets and young officers I had been ordered to go there and quite accidentally I happened to run into Himmler. After that we had a conference after that, alone; and I attempted to interest him in air defense problems in order to get him to use his influence on Hitler and Exploit that influence. In 1944 after I had resigned as GL and State Secretary, I saw him on the 23rd of June near Salzburg. The only problem there was to explain to him why I had resigned and what I intended doing now, that is to say, to withdraw myself from all my other tasks.\nQ.In 1942, in other words, you didn't see him at all?\nA.No.\nQ.Did you ever see an SD officer about the question of slackers?\nA.No.\nEXAMINATION BY THE PRESIDENT:\nQ.Witness, when you resigned -- and when was it? 1944?\nA.Yes, it was on the 20th of June, 1944.\nQ.You resigned as GL but you retained your post as Inspector General?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2785, "page_number": "2227", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "A.Yes sir, that is correct,. That was a special order from Goering.\nREDIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued) BY DR. BERGOLD:\nQ.Witness, I now come to Exhibit 142,NOKW 416, again a conference was held in 1942 on the 26th of August, where once again the question of slackers is being discussed and a Herr Brueckner says that a labor camp had been established. You had told him that you wished to have more details about that in the next conference. Did Brueckner ever give you those details?\nA.As far as I recall, no. He himself had nothing to do with that question.\nQ.That is part of Vorwald's testimony.\nTHE PRESIDENT: Let me ask another question, please.\nEXAMINATION BY THE PRESIDENT:\nQ.Witness, at the time of your capture, what military rank did you hold? Were you still a Field Marshal?\nA.Yes, I was. In Germany you stay a Field Marshall until you die. Field Marshals are not dismissed in Germany.\nQ.Were you exercising any military authority at the time you were captured?\nA.No, I was with out any assignment at all; and I was not Inspector General at the time either.\nQ.You were simply Field Marshal without assignment and hold no other post?\nA.That is correct.\nQ.That had been true since you were relieved as Inspector General in January 1945?\nA.Yes, indeed. In January, 1945.\nQ.I meant January; I intended to say January.\nREDIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued) BY DR BERGOLD:\nQ.Witness, now I come to Exhibit 145,NOKW 288. I shall read a passage to you.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2786, "page_number": "2228", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "It is the passage where you are speaking of the stamping out of an uprising. A man called von der Heyde says; \"These are lists of industrial plants which belong to the security decrees 1, 2, and 3, in order to decide whether they need anti-aircraft protection or not.\" Witness, does that mean protection against uprisings or protection against air-raids?\nAOnly against air-raids.\nQThen you reply to that question to protect industry against air-raid as follows: \"I do not wish to refuse. The man who has submitted it is not very clever. The people wish to do this. I saw Himmler about this the other day; and I told him that his main task should be, to protect German industry if the foreign workers should make an uprising. That refers to the uprising of the Botokuden, which is a Negro tribe. Thereupon you speak about these people being shot by soldiers. Then you continue: \"I told Himmler I shall join you. He said, \"I wish to know where the most important factories are.' He refers quite generally to armament. I do not know whether he actually means this. I assume that the problem is the same one. Should we oppose this? After all, Speer will help him anyway.\"\nQWitness, I do not understand the context here. First you say that the people who arranged for anti-aircraft protection were not very clever; but then you could speak about Himmler and of uprisings. Then you say, \"I do not know whether it is that; I assume that that is it.\" Witness, if you have talked to Himmler, about it, you should know, shouldn't you, what the problem is?\nAI can't quite see any sense in this. I think this is a matter of several issues here. Himmler had nothing to do with antiaircraft protection and I cannot understand how all these things were mixed up here to that extent.\nQDid you see Himmler on 19 October 1943, and talk to him about uprisings?", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2787, "page_number": "", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "ANo. I never spoke to Himmler at all in October 1943.\nQYou spoke to him in April.\nAYes, and then in November.\nQDid you discuss the question of an uprising with Speer in April.\nANo.\nQBut how can you say then that you saw him?\nAAll I can imagine here is that, as it happened once or twice, that the records were wrongly kept. I have no recollection of the question that an 2228a uprising was expected at that time.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2788, "page_number": "2229", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "Q.Witness, but if you said these words, would it have been correct?\nA.No, it's out of the question. I didn't see Himmler nor did I see Speer about this question.\nQ.So if you used those words at the time they would have been wrong, wouldn't they?\nA.Yes; but I am firmly convinced that I never said it.\nQ.Witness, I now return once more to a document, which is Document NOKW? 416, Exhibit 36. I didn't have pent of this document yesterday. There is a report attached to this document by the GLA, the Planning Office of the GLA, dated 13 May. You initialed it -- yes. Czechs are mentioned here, Poles and Dutchmen. Now, you told us that you never knew anything about Dutchmen and Poles. How is it that you no longer know this? Did you see that sort of report only once, and did you not go into the details? Did your memory not retain it? How is it?\nA.I have no recollection that Poles and Dutchmen worked for us. I did know generally speaking that Dutchmen and Poles were in Germany, but I never saw them in our armament industry. Of course, such reports I could not always remember.\nQ.Witness, now I come toNOKW--347, which is Exhibit 147. Here the Italians are mentioned, prisoners of war. You said yesterday Mussolini wanted to send these Italians to Germany and that they were to work there. Was there any restriction attached to this where they worked?\nA.Not that I know of; not that I know of.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2789, "page_number": "2230", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "Q.They were at your disposal and were in reservation?\nA.In the first place they were to work for the armament, for the greater part of the armament in Italy was manufactured in Germany. Guns, ammunition, and aircraft, these were reserve departments, and aircraft, or course, of the GL, and they were built in Germany for the Italian Army. It had begun after the capitulation or even earlier. I had been to Rome, I believe that was at the end of -- I must look that up, it was at the end of 1942, from the 1st to the 5th of December and an agreement was made with the Italians that we in Germany would build a large part, or would have a large part of the Italian production, and the Italians were to build aircraft, and then I suggested they should limit themselves to the fighter type.\nQ.And after the capitulation they would extend the manufacturing for Germany?\nA.Yes. Owing to the events following the capitulation of Italy, the possibility to manufacture things in Italy had become very difficult, and then Germany had to supply much more.\nQ.Now the question, for that reason Mussolini put these people at your disposal?\nA.I assume that was his main reason.\nQ.Witness, not I come to N0KW 449, Exhibit No. 148, that is the passage where you say that you had received reports that Poles or French had told the people you had better treat us well, or we will then see to it that you will be shot at once, and not tried first, Did you hear such statements also outside of your sphere, as it was stated?\nA.Yes, I know for instance that some of the Russian servant girls in Germany told their employers that these employers treated them differently from what they had been told before.\nDR.BERGOLD; Your Honor, on this occasion I want to present an affidavit that will be given Exhibit No. 57-Milch. It could not be translated because time was too short, and I wish to read it into the record.", "speakers": [ "DR.", "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2790, "page_number": "", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "I have one German copy which I have given to the interpreter, so he can follow more easily just what the affidavit contains.\n2230-a \"I, Ursula Milch, nee Kaiser.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2791, "page_number": "2231", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "Born 29 December 1913, in Hagen in Westphalia, at present in Nurnberg, Fuerther Str. 185, IV, had been told that it is an offense for me to give a false affidavit. I state on oath that my statement is true, and has been given to be submitted as evidence to the Military Tribunal No. 2, in the Palace of Justice, Nurnberg, Germany. My father was a protestant priest for over forty years in Hagen in Westphalia. During the war I and all my children were for a long time with my parents. At that time of the year we received an Ukrainian servant girl as a servant, and her name was Dussia. That girl was at first very reserved and hostile, but in the course of the years she became more and more attached to my family, and after the collapse in 1945 she protected our family to the best of her ability, and she gave us food. That girl, once we had won her confidence told us that she had been given orders to kill Germans during the uprising; that she would kill us first because we had been decent, and not torture us first. The same remark had been made quite independently to families known to us by other Russian girls; Dussia, received the same food as we did. She was allowed to go out and visit her Russian girl friends. Signed; Frau Ursula Milch. The above signature of Frau Ursula Milch, in Hagen, Westphalia, Florerstr. 223, at present Nurnberg, Fuertherstr. 185-IV, was given before Dr. Friederich Bergold, is hereby certified and testified by me, Nurnberg, 19 March 1947. Signed: Dr. Friederich Bergold.\"\nYour Honor, this shows that there was a propaganda campaign, among the foreigners from abroad to threaten the Germans with such statements. The French did it, and the Poles and the Russians, and they did it in the very same way. I myself came across such a case, that the German population were fooling depressed about this, anyway, while they were suffering from the bombing and shelling. You must understand that the German people went through more difficulties than any other nation in the world. It is not purely a propaganda lie on the part of the German National Socialist Party, but these statements have really been made.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2792, "page_number": "2232", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "JUDGE MUSMANNO:Dr. Bergold, do I understand you to say seriously that the German people were depressed because of the chatter of a little servant girl?\nDR. BERGOLD:Your Honor, the German people had the feeling at the time that the war will be lost, and they were afraid of the foreigners everywhere who made these remarks. You must understand if you are being bombed night after night, and had to stay in cellars, and see so often that which we are recollecting, and you have fire all around you -- you were spared that experience in America; you are to be graceful to your creator for that. Your country's attitude is so weak that these statements excite you rather heavily.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:Do you suppose that any one of these servant girls or anybody else that was brought into Germany had not suffered that harrowing experience which you are now so graphically describing? They know just as much as the Germans did about bombing and fire and collapse and destruction, did they not -- these Russians, the Ukranians, the Italians, the French, the Poles? They received it long before Germany did -- the English. How you can make that comparison is a little mysterious.\nDR. BERGOLD:Your Honor, you must take only what these people had the hope of once to be victorious, and our people were afraid to lose the war, and to face the eternal mystery. That is a great difference.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:There is no difference. The others had the same fear, and in fact, suffered even more. However, that is beside the issue.\nBY DR. BERGOLD:\nQ.Witness, now I come toNOKW 413, Exhibit No. 150. This is the question of using and employing three-thousand concentration camp inmates. You told us yesterday that these people probably were employed on the airfield Rechlin. Is that the same airfield where the witness Koenig had been working?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "DR. BERGOLD", "JUDGE MUSMANNO" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2793, "page_number": "2233", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "A.I assume that from What I have heard so far, because constructions were being made there, and, as Koenig said, building workers from a concentration camp were working.\nQ.Witness, is it true, as Koenig said, that you gave orders to give supplementary food rations to these concentration camp inmates?\nA.Yes. The commander of the testing station came to see me and told me that he did not think that the food was sufficient. As the testing station had its own agricultural assignment, I ordered that sufficient food should be given from those agricultural products.\nQ.Now, I come witness, toNOKW-272, Exhibit 151. This is the incident in Wernigerode, where you suggested that foreigners be given only half their food supplies and only supplementary rations if they worked. Witness, you told us yesterday that the simple food ration cards were given in Germany to people who did not do any work. How did you mean that? Did not work where?\nA.Did not work in the industry. That is to say, the employees of my ministry were given these small rations, as were the rest of the population. I myself was mobile, and I could claim the bigger ration, but as I was in Berlin, it was quite impossible for me for reasons of my own moral attitude to claim the bigger rations there, so I was also given the smaller ration. I expected all other soldiers in the RLM to do the same so that there would be no discrimination among the masses of the population. Workers, on the other hand, in the industry, according to the heaviness of their work, were given supplementary rations of a larger or a smaller extent, as the case may be.\nIn this case, in the case of the Italian prisoners, for instance, some of whom did not wish to do any work, my suggestion was to give them the normal portion -- that is to say, the same as I had myself -and the supplementary rations for heavy work. That is to say, in the foundries, near Rautenbach where work was prescribed as very heavy because people worked in front of the hot stoves; this work was always regarded as being very heavy, and these people were given more than double rations compared with the normal al rations.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2794, "page_number": "2234", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "That was true only as long as they really did the work. If they did not, they could not claim more rations. I do not think that was inhumane, but a just proposition.\nDR. BERGOLD:Your Honors, throughout the war I myself received normal rations, although I worked ten hours a day. Intellectuals were not given more food in Germany. Intellectuals did not count for much in Germany at the time.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Intellectuals don't win wars.\nDR. BERGOLD:Too true, too true. I want to add, your Honors, that by order of the Control Council at present in Germany, a person is only given a food ration card as long as he works, unless the doctor certifies that he cannot do any work of in the case of a woman who has many children and must stay at home to look after them. Every time a German wants to have his ration card today, he must submit a certificate from the labor Office that he does do some work.\nQ.Witness, I come now toNOKW-242, Exhibit 152. That is a letter from the Inspector of Armament of the Wehrkreis VI, dated Muenster, 13 October 1941. It says that Field Marshal Milch had told the Inspectorate that Director Berchert of the Bochum Union had been given a special task by Goering. You told us yesterday that at the time you were not the GL.\nA.Yes.\nQ.Did you have any possibility to give such an order within the sphere of your position as Inspector General?\nA.No.\nQ.You said your name had been misused?\nA.That is what I assume.\nQ.Yesterday you said there were many examples. Can you give us one example, at least?\nA.One day the commandant of an airfield, a man called von Gatow, buttonholed me. My aircraft were actually stationed there. He told me that an aircraft had landed from Greece and that there were things for me aboard, according to the statement made by a Ministerial Councillor who had been on board and who was in the Reich Air Ministry.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2795, "page_number": "2235", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "Every aircraft which landed from abroad was always supervised very carefully to find out whether they had food and merchandise for the black market aboard. It was forbidden to buy things abroad unless you did it through official channels who had special permits for this. I had never given orders of that sort, and first of all I ordered that the aircraft and all its crew should be arrested and that the legal officer of the airfield should interrogate them at once. It was shown then that this Ministerial Councillor had bought carpets in Greece for his own purposes, and in order to get away with it as far as customs were concerned, he simply misused my name. The crew, who wore ignorant of this, were released at once. The Ministerial Councillor was arrested and by courtmartial -- not my courtmartial but somebody else's -- was given two and a half years in prison because he had bought things abroad. A particularly incriminating circumstance was quoted as the fact that he had misused the name of a superior officer. I know ten or twenty cases of that sort.\nQ.Thank you very much. Witness, I now come toNOKW-260, Exhibit 154. This is the decree by Goering of 4 September 1943 concerning the Planning Office with the Plenipotentiary for armament Tasks. Witness, I asked you once before whether that Planning Office, apart from preparing the meetings of the Central Planning Board, had other tasks?\nA.A large number of tasks. The majority of its tasks were contained in the Speer Ministry in his capacity of Minister for Armament and also in his capacity as Plenipotentiary for Armaments in the Four Year Plan. Both these things were not connected with the Central Planning Board. This was only to save personnel and to avoid having to establish an office of its own.\nDR. BERGOLD:Your Honors, I now submit another exhibit, Number 55. Unfortunately, it has not been translated into English, although it was supplied to the Translating Section on Monday. I shall submit it later on in English. I cannot read it all now. These are two charts concerning Speer's tasks, on the basis of his own decrees, according to Document 1510-PS:", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2796, "page_number": "", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "also, a 2235 a chart showing Milch's tasks as GL; also a list of the collaboration between Speer and the GL and GL and the industry.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2797, "page_number": "2236", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "BY DR. BERGOLD:\nQ.Witness, these lists have been drawn up by you, have they not?\nA.Yes.\nQ.Can you say also that they are correct?\nA.Yes, Perhaps I can repeat what has been said on the organization of the Speer Ministry. It comes exactly from the documents submitted by the Prosecution. What I have put down about the GL are the very same organizational parts which are put on the same basis as those of Speer, and the third is the difference in the question of collaboration between Speer and the GL. I can also testify on oath that it is correct in every detail.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2798, "page_number": "2237", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "DR. BERGOLD:I would ask permission, Your Honors, to submit the English translation later on. The translation section does not work very quickly.\nQ.I shall now come to Exhibit 155,NOKW 180. I shall read from this a passage which the prosecution has not noted. In that conference Goering says that you suggest the best thing would be the Luftwaffe calls up these people, gives them leave, and from that moment onward nobody can interfere with their business. \"Then these people are my soldiers and what I do as their C. in C., as how much leave I shall give them, is my business. Then this man is really safe for us. As soon as he would be called up again he puts on his blue coat and says, '\"I have been a soldier for a long time and I am really here on leave.'\" Is that in connection with your attempt to retain German workers in the air industry?\nA.Oh, yes. That was the basis, for instance, for the 40,000 I talked about. I was very glad to have been able to persuade Goering to do this.\nQ.Witness, then I come to page 6013 of the same document. You may recall that the prosecution put to you that Goering had demanded Italians should be beaten up, and you also recall that according to the records you answered, \"I gave the order that they may be beaten if they don't work but I also permitted to have Italians who are caught doing sabotage, to be sentenced to death.\" You recall that the President, His Honor Judge Toms, put to you whether you told Goering lies here. I shall now ask you, witness, did you have a chance at all to order this sentence?\nA.No.\nQ.Did Goering know that he was the only man in the Luftwaffe who was in a position to order a death sentence?\nA.Oh, yes, because he himself had given the order.\nQ.Witness, why if Goering knew that did he not tell you too, \"You are lying\"?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2799, "page_number": "", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "A.I am convinced that it was not said like that. I do not recall this passage. Had I said it it would have been a lie and then Goering, in my view, would have told me at once, \"Don't exaggerate.", "speakers": [ "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2800, "page_number": "2238", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "You are in no position to do so. You have not the right to do so. \"\nDR. BERGOLD:Your Honors, may I remind you that a number of witnesses said here on oath, particularly General Roeder, that Goering by giving express orders reserved the right to give death sentences. That passage, therefore, must be wrong. In the course of this day after the recess I shall show through some other means how wrong the records were.\nI assume that the court wishes now to take its recess?\nTHE PRESIDENT:We were rather late getting started, Dr. Bergold. I think we will run until eleven o'clock.\nDR. BERGOLD:Very well, your Honor.\nQ.Witness, I now come to the big document, Exhibit 134, NOKW 195. This is a conference with Goering on 28 October 1943. I am very glad that this document has been submitted because there a number of statements made by the defendant which are borne out. Witness, according to the record Goering says at first the Reichsmarshall is dealing with the question of the discrepancies in figures of assigned workers. He says he drew the Fuehrer's attention to this problem and noted the numbers of workers. \"If I take out last month, the figure has remained the same although millions of persons, recently recruited workers, and women worker's, have been assigned to German economic life.\" The Fuehrer replied that he couldn't understand this at all. \"I refer to what Field Marshall Milch reported to me about the industrial situation, what Milch and the Industrial Council reported to me.\" He then said, \"In any case it is quite clear that the figures remain the same. Once before we looked for our Easter eggs in Berchtesgaden.\" By that he means the correct figures, and at that time we couldn't get a very clear result. He says that the Fuehrer thinks that with so many millions of workers the air armament would need at least five million workers, and under these circumstances should have at least five million. Speer points out that in the armament of the army they had started with 1.6 million and now they had 1.9 million. Milch replied that the question was when we began two years ago, how things were then and what we have today and how we stand, today.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2801, "page_number": "2239", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "The conclusion is reached that it cannot be done below 200,000. There is a loss here, an additional figure which is far below 100,000. Witness, is that the same which you told the Court the other day when you told about the false figures supplied by Sauckel?\nAYes.\nQYou continue, \"It is very interesting to see how the figures were before Hitler's. As we thought, they did remain on the same level from January to August. From January to August the Russian figures sank from 22,000 to 19,000, and the others from 48,000 to 28,000. In the summer the prisoners of war became loss, from 70,000 to 10,000.\" Is that correct in this form? Was that your opinion at the time?\nAThat was how the statistical department supplied the figures to mo, because without our knowledge people were taken away from us and sent somewhere else.\nQGoering then says, \"As I think about the figures which were given to me by Sauckel and see what the effects are in my case, then I ask myself, where are we heading for. Then I always told you there were fluctuations. This word is supposed to explain everything away which exists. I cannot understand that. It is not possible to that extent.\" I refer to a statement by Heyde, von der Heyde. He says, \"We gave 71,000 men to the Wehrmacht this year.\" Is that a large figure compared to the air armament?\nAHere we not only had the pure figures of the air armament but also additionally all that which the OKW gave to us as far as statistical figures were concerned. That started on a figure of roughly two million. We ourselves had only 300,000. In this case the 71,000 listed here refer to the two million and that is not a large figure.\nQThank you. Then further down you say after a calculation of Speer of recent date, \"We have a total figure of 1,832,000 employees. 817,000 are Germans, that is to say, 44 percent; German women, 25 percent; male foreigners, 23.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2802, "page_number": "2240", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "5 percent; female foreigners, 7 percent.\" Shortly before that the Reichsmarshall said, \"In any case up to now I haven't found one enterprise which has told me it had more than 50 percent foreigners.\" Then you say these percentages apply only very generally. In certain cases of production the figures are different, is that so?\nAYes. The percentage quoted by you just now are the average. That applies to everything but within the armament the distribution was different in some cases.\nQGoering then says, \"That is very interesting. I see with joy that German people are still twice as strep* as the foreigners and thus everything is kept going.\"\nTHE PRESIDENT:That will be a good place to stop.\nTHE MARSHAL:The Tribunal is in recess for fifteen minutes.\n(A recess was taken.)", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "A", "THE PRESIDENT", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2803, "page_number": "2241", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "THE MARSHAL:The Tribural is again in session.\nDR. BERGOLD:Your Honors, a little earlier I had mentioned the fact that newly submitted exhibits had not yet been submitted in the English translation. Naturally, far be it from me to accuse the translating branch. I know that for technical reasons it could not possibly have been translated in so short a time. The only reason why I said it was because I wanted to apologize for the fact that it was not yet available in the English.\nQ. (By Dr. Bergold) Witness, in this document Goering states that \"The decisive thing is that in the management of the camps a personnel strength is being maintained which if free would provide the most outstanding help for us in the field of labor or other military necessities.\nIs this connected with any of your efforts , I mean towards the reduction of the excessive personnel numbers in the German Army.\nA.Yes. Through these means I was trying to free German personnel which were not in fighting units, but which were being used for duty in stores and dumps, and I was trying to got these people free for work.\nQ.Witness, you then state, and I quote: \"The following considerations are to be made; how much power does the Army have today without Air Force and without Navy? I assume eight million men, and how many of those are actually fighting at the front? Certainly not much more than twenty-five to thirty per cent.\"\nWould this reflect your correct point of view?\nA.This was the point of view which I had reported to Hitler as early as the 5th of March 1943.\nQ.Goering, a few passages later, says: \"But in spite of all this, there remains the great discrepancy between the number of laborers actually supplied by Sauckel and that figure submitted, by the Central Planning Board.\nOnce again this is connected with the fact that Sauckel's figures were untrue; is that right?\nA.Yes, the statement made by him, and it means that the figures could not be correct.", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "A.", "Q.", "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2804, "page_number": "2242", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "Q.Then follows a passage which says as follows: \"Milch submits to the Reichsmarshal a program which, by means of graphs of aircraft production in Germany, comparing it with that in America, Great Britain and Russia.\"\nWould this be the confirmation of the fact that at that time here too you were trying to got Goering to increase fighter production?\nA.Yes.\nQ.And then you state: \"The enemy is proposing to reduce, not to increase, production further although he could, because in the air armament program they have first, place.\"\nWhat does that actually mean?\nA.I was showing Goering the increasing production figures, I think, in connection with the American aircraft, and this graph then does not rise so steeply, only rather more gradually. What I am trying to say with this is that they are now slowing down because they have enough. They could actually increase if they wanted to because they have the facilities for it and the facilities they have because in these countries air armament is occupying first priority. I was trying to point out that here in Germany air armament only occupied seventh place.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2805, "page_number": "", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "Q.Goering then goes on to say, \"The Americans can't climb into space with this thirty millions, either.\" And he goes on to say, \"If I look at the conscription figures of the Americans, well, they aren't arriving yet, are they. And that is quite different and there will be quite different crashes on the American side, too. The Americans aren't having any less difficulties than we are having.\"\nWould this be expressing his view that he doesn't believe you?\nA.Yes; the submission of these latest graphs -- which were always brought up-to-date -- was carried, out to Goering by me very often. During every report I had them in my briefcase, and Goering didn't believe these figures, and kept saying that difficulties over there were just as great as they were in our country, and that they were also only 'boiling with water'\".\nQ.Later on you are saying, I quote Milch: \"May I report in this connection that requests which I have made are aiming at an increased fighter production program.\" And Goering follows by saying that, \"We may possibly reduce fighter production in favor of bomber production because I simply can not forego these bombers -- at least not those six hundred. I would rather forego eight hundred fighters.\"\nIs that, once again, part of his resistance against you?\nA.Yes.\nQ.Near the end you are saying in this connection, \"I am thinking of vital questions connected with these confronting us, namely, whether our home country in the following Spring is being sufficiently defended when the American bombers arrive. And Goering says, \"And if every town in Germany is razed to the ground, the German people will nevertheless survive. Certainly this would be terrible, but the German people lived before there were towns.\" Would this once again be a final refusal to your proposals?\nA.At least on that day everything that I was indicating to him--everything that I was aiming at in connection with the increase of defense -- was being turned down by him.\nQ.I now pass on to the last passages in this document, page 73 in the German, and Speer is saying: \"At this one point the 1-8 million reserved in this department 2243 are the best people in the industry\"; and you are saying, \"Yes, they are the best -- as far as quality is concerned.\"", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2806, "page_number": "2244", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "You are talking about people of reserved occupations. What are they exactly?\nA. \"UK\" means: people who, according to their ages and their state of health, ought to have been competent soldiers; who, however, for reasons of professional work rendered by them, were allowed to remain in industry, a position which could at any time be reversed.\nQ.In Germany they always had the two letters UK?\nA.Yes.\nDR. BERGOLD:Your Honors, I beg you -- and this is of great importance -- to look at DocumentNOKW 245, Exhibit 157, and I should like you look at page 5408, where the defendant is supposed to have stated: \"The best workers we have are the concentration camp people. They are our elite.\nThis meeting was on February the twenty-second, 1943, and, Your Honors, yesterday the witness testified that he could not have said this since he has only, always, referred to free German workers as being the best. Your Honors, quite obviously it has been established here how wrongly these minutes were being prepared; obviously the stenographer heard the word \"UK\" and he put the letters \"UK\" there, couldn't read, his own handwriting any more and wrote \"KZ\" -Concentration Camps.\nIn the Document, Exhibit 134,NOKW 195, the witness is expressly speaking of the fact that the best workers were those who were designated UK, so that obviously here, once again, a serious error has crept into the record. The stenographer put down letters which he put down quickly couldn't read any more and which he then, with a great deal of imagination renamed into the letters \"KZ\" referring to concentration camp inmates. Whereas, obviously the defendant spoke of the elite of German workers, namely those who had been put \"UK\" and. whom he referred to before Goering as his elite during the same year.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:Who are the UK ? What does UK mean?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "JUDGE MUSMANNO" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2807, "page_number": "2245", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "DR. BERGOLD:UK means unabkoemmlich -- people who can not be spared, people, who in Germany are reserved...in comparison to those people who are liable to be called up as soldiers. Someone who was UK could not be called up as a soldier.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:Then they would necessarily be Germans -- would they not?\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes, necessarily Germans. People who are UK must be free German workers who are unabkoemmlich, as we call it, in Germany -- reserves for the Wehrmacht.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:How do you explain that in that very same paragraph in which you eulogize, as you say, the German workers, he refers to twenty thousand of these German workers as pigs?\nDR. BERGOLD:Those are different ones; those are the shirkers.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:But they are still Germans?\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes, Germans, too; yes.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:They were net members of the Master Race -- these?\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:You mean they were -- they did belong to the Master Race -- these twenty thousand pigs?\nDR. BERGOLD:They were Germans, yes; but those were people who defendant has described as traitors, traitors to their country, and the elite, on the other hand, are those with UK, the very good German workers. And the stenographer put UK -- two letters -- and apparently afterward he couldn't read it any more, He could still see the K and decipher it, and made the K a Z -- concentration camp out of it.", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD", "JUDGE MUSMANNO" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2808, "page_number": "2246", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "This is proof of the fact that the witness was speaking the truth yesterday because in 1943 he could not have described to Goering these UK people as the elite and previously describe concentration camp inmates as elite. That wouldn't make sense.\nTHE PRESIDENT:And of course the pigs weren't elite.\nDR. BERGOLD:No, no, no. No, certainly not. There are, gentlemen, decent and rotten people in every nation, in every nation in this world.\nTHE PRESIDENT:So it isn't a matter of race; it's a matter of persons, isn't it?\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes, a matter of the individual, your Honor, quite. I shall now turn to Exhibit 157 which I have just had in my hand. Your Honors, I am terribly, terribly pleased about that exhibit, and I'm so glad that for once the prosecution submitted a document which helped me and which supplied my little beat with fresh winds to sail since I had already been promoted captain by some highly spirited person yesterday afternoon.\nI beg you to look at page 5407 of that exhibit. There Milch is stating, \"Speer and I are of the opinion that he\" - this is referring to Sauckel - \"should, somehow be included in the Central planning Board so that apart from the material, labor allocation, too, would, be under our control because now there isn't any possibility of steering the situation.\"\nYour Honors, I have spent many an hour to prove to you that the Central Planning Board had nothing to do with the actual allocation of labor or labor problems as such. The witness has stated the same to you under oath. A number of witnesses, Vorwald, Haortel, Eschenauer, Pandele and Schmelter have told you the same story. And now here in 1943 on the 22nd of February Milch is stating with great exactness the very thing which we are trying to prove. Sauckel ought to be included in the Central Planning Board, and only then would the Central Planning Board, aside from raw materials, also have labor allocation under its control, whereas up to then it had had no possibility to steer and to direct the situation.", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2809, "page_number": "2247", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "REDIRECT EXAMINATION (Continued) BY DR. BERGOLD:\nQWitness, was Sauckel ever included in the Central Planning Board?\nANo.\nQWould this passage correspond with your views which you have stated here to a full extent?\nAYes, we did want that influence, but we didn't succeed. Hitler refused it point-blank.\nQI consider that this is a key document with reference to the Central Planning Board. May I ask the prosecution if I may have the original ofNOKW-252? Witness, I am having this put before you, and I should like you to check Sauckel's speech. There in this speech of Sauckel you will find passages marked with red containing certain entries on the second page, the first page of the take, and also on page 11 and on page 12.\nAI've seen it.\nQWitness, these entries marked in red - are those yours? Do they originate from you?\nAI believe not.\nQWitness, what was your custom if you were marking such passages?\nAI would affix my initials, \"Mi\".\nQSo that if you did mark anything in some such document then you'd make that red mark with pencil?\nAYes, because my adjutant sometimes marked certain passages with red pencil for me in order to draw my attention to those. I see in the first instances that - the first paragraph is put in parentheses. I couldn't imagine for what purpose this would serve. I certainly never did. that.\nQThank you.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2810, "page_number": "2248", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "DR. BERGOLD:Your Honors, in that case I have no further questions to put to the witness ?\nAMay I add one more thing? This letter sent, along by Sauckel is dated the 1st of April 1943, and he is writing to Field Marshal Milch. The following day, April 2nd, he sends the same letter to the State Secretary Milch. This appears to be an indication that he hardly knew rue at the time.\nDR. BERGOLD:Now I have no further questions to put to this witness, and I beg your permission to call witness Reinecke.\nMR. DENNEY:With reference to what Dr. Bergold just said about this other exhibit, I'd like to call the Court's attention back to the fact that I read it into the record yesterday and we have no quarrel with what he said at that time. He said he wanted to got Sauckel as a member of the Central Planning Board. That's all the statement says.\nTHE PRESIDENT:His point there, Mr. Denney, was that that indicates that Sauckel, the labor procurement man, up to that time was not a member of the Central Planning Board.\nMR. DENNEY:Yes sir.\nTHE PRESIDENT:That's the emphasis he makes?\nMR. DENNEY:Yes, sir.\nRECROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. DENNEY:\nQWitness, you were a rated pilot; you had wings?\nAPilot's wings, yes.\nQUntil the end of the war?\nAYes.\nMR. DENNEY:No further questions.\nTHETRIBUNAL (JUDGE MUSMANNO): Dr. Bergold, I'm going to put some questions to the witness and I'll refer particularly to the last statement which you made regarding the inability or the lack of authorization on the part of the Central Planning Board to allocate workers.", "speakers": [ "MR. DENNEY", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "THE", "MR. DENNEY", "Q", "A" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2811, "page_number": "2249", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "EXAMINATION BY THE TRIBUNAL (JUDGE MUSMANNO):\nQWitness, did the Central Planning Board have influence in the matter of the procurement or the allocation of workers?\nAWe did not have such influence but we were always aiming at it. We were always trying to reach clarity as to whether Sauckel's figures were correct or not, because Hitler was holding us responsible for the insufficient distribution of steel and through that the low figure in armament production.\nQVery well, Now, you recall having testified before the International Military Tribunal in the first case, do you not?\nAYes, I testified there.\nQWell, you seem to have made there a statement somewhat contrary to the one you've just made, namely, that the Central Planning Board had no influence. The record indicates that you said, \"On the question of the availability of working forces it had no command authority. The distribution of workers was influenced in art by the Central Planning Board, since the armament industry could see what was necessary in each regard.\" So, therefore, you did have some influence, did you not?\nAMay I say in this connection that the sense of my statement at that time was that Speer in his sphere and I in mine were making requests regarding the distribution, and there again we were trying to gain influence because only we knew through reports from our agencies where workers were needed and which workers were needed. Sauckel, on the other hand, went to the extent of stating there that it was he alone who was distributing workers and that he could not fulfill our wishes.\nQYes. Now -\nAMay I first give, you an example?\nQWitness, I don't want any long explanation. I have a number of questions so please endeavor to answer them briefly. We merely want to clarify whatever may be in doubt before the Tribunal in these last few moments of the trial.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2812, "page_number": "2250", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "In reading the transcript I find that here and there some doubts arise in my mind. Some of them may be the result of faulty transmission and some may arise out of the questions and answeres themselves.\nNow, in the very early part of your testimony you spoke of the Versailles Treaty and yon mentioned various prohibitions. Here is something I don't understand at all, so there must have been some grave error in the transmission. You spoke of one of the prohibitions being the poison of South American Indians, called \"Gurare.\" Now, that doesn't make any sense to me. What did you moan by that?\nAWhat I wanted to say was that the disarmament conference at Geneva hadn't arrived at any result. That was the meaning.\nQWell, what did that have to do with South American Indians?\nAAs a matter of fact, the disarmament conference arrived at only one resolution, namely, that Gurare, an arrow poison, was prohibited in Geneva at that time. That was only meant to be one example, to the effect that no results were possible.\nQI see. That's all I desire.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2813, "page_number": "2251", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "JUDGE MUSMANNO:\nQ.Then you referred to a meeting in England, and gave us an interesting quotation which, standing alone, is rather ambiguous. Some Englishman said to you at a party, \"Today you meet your first and second best enemy. Don't be confused by this, but if there is an attack hit back,\" Now what is the connection, what did he mean by that, and who was it that said it?\nA.That was Lord Trenchard.\nQ.Who?\nA.Lord Trenchard, and of course it was a joke on his part. He brought us together with Mr. Churchill, and Mr. Amery, and had previously told me knowing of my efforts, that they on their part, and I on my part ought to arrive at a peaceful and friendly solution. He told me jokingly previously that maybe these men are ready to try you out, but that during the conversation don't be bashful after all an Churchill, is so far as I was concerned, a very very high ranking personage, \"That you go ahead and answer them in a recognizable manner.\" It was a, friendly conversation and not a conference or meeting.\nQ.Was Churchill present?\nA.Yes.\nQ.What was meant \"That you meet your first and second best enemy\"?\nA.The person in question was trying to say of this, that here in England there are various attitudes towards Germany. One attitude is that of being rather angry about everything that Hitler had been doing, and these two gentlemen belonged to that school of thought, whereas -\nQ.Very well, that is clear. Now I find this statement by you, which has to do with the airforce and in isn't quite clear to me in the record. You said: \"I would have to introduce very strong and sever measures.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "JUDGE MUSMANNO" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2814, "page_number": "2252", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "I suffered under the conditions something which I may be able to refer to tomorrow, to a horrible degree. I could see the decline and collapse of my country drastically before my eyes. I know how help could come. I tried it, and I didn't get it.\"\nQ.What help was that?\nA.We were concerned with the question of creating an air defense inside of Germany in time, which was to be strong enough for the defense of the home country.\nQ.In other words; what you mean is, that you were seeking augmenting defense by the fighter plane forces?\nA.Quite.\nQ.In the earlier part of your testimony you spoke of Hitler, and you seemed to be admiring him considerably in these early days. You said that from 1933 to 1938 he was adored and worshipped by people. Was he adored by the Jews whose property he had confiscated; whose property he had destroyed; and whose personal dignity he had degraded; or, didn't you regard the Jews as people?\nA.When I had referred to this liberty of the people, naturally I considered the Jews to be people; part of the people; that I did not include them in the words of mine was because they were not in a position. They came within my ideal.\nQ.And since we are on the subject of Jews, I would like to refer to something which occurred at the first trial. Now you are not compelled to discuss this matter if for any reason you prefer not to, but you will recall that you were cross examined by Justice Jackson on the subject of your being Aryanized. Do you recollect that?\nA.Yes; I recall it.\nQ.Now you gave an explanation at the trial which; however was not definitive, it seems to have been left in midair, and since you have given us quite a long autobiographical sketch of yourself, if you would care to enlighten us on this point, you are free to do so.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2815, "page_number": "2253", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "A.It is my point of view that I made a definite statement at the time.\nQ.Yes.\nA.That point of view I still adhere to.\nQ.Let us see. You were asked certain questions and gave certain answers as follows:\n\"Q. At that time Goering had referred to 1933, so we will have no misunderstanding, Goering made you what you call a full Aryan; is that right?\n\"A I don't believe he made me a full Aryan; but that I was one.\n\"Q. Well, he had it established, let's say?\n\"A. He had me in clearing this question, which was not clear.\nQuestion: \"That is, your mother's husband was a Jew, is that correct?\nAnswer: That is not meant by that.\nQuestion: You had to demonstrate lack of connection as to any Jewish source, is that correct?\nAnswer: Yes, everybody had to do that.\nQuestion: And in your case it concerned your father, your alleged father, is that correct?\nAnswer: Yes. And there the inquiry rested.\nA.Yes.\nQ.Just what had to be done to demonstrate that you were a full Aryan, and why did the question arise?\nA.The first time that question arose was in 1933, and the occasion was the following: The president of the German Air Plan was reported as being adverse to the Hitler regime, and I stood in front of that man to protect him, and following that, a man who was a member of the SA sent a letter to Goering; and I would like to add, that this was a man who was trying to become State Secretary of the Air Ministry by such a method, and who had been deeply hurt that he as am old Party member had to take a second place behind me, that he wrote this letter from those rumors that were current to the effect that he said, Secretary of State Milch is not a full Aryan.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2816, "page_number": "2254", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "This happened in the Summer of 1933, Goering forwarded this letter to me, and I then went to Goering, and following that I was asked to submit my family tree, of my origin, and that is how this matter arose, that was the reason.\nQ.You had to establish that no Jewish blood flowed in your viens, is that correct?\nA.Yes, that is what I was supposed to do.\nQ.And you established that to their satisfaction?\nA.That was established, yes.\nQ.In your eulogy of Hitler as you admired him in the early days, you said that he believed in God. Do you know why he persecuted the church if he believed in the Supreme Being?\nA.Persecution of the churches was something which I only heard about afterwards and later on, during these later years.\nQ.You did not know that the Church and the clergy had been warred against by Hitler?\nA.During those early years I did not know it, no. I have three clergymen in my own family. All three of them were not members of the Party. All these three, too, I often met, and not one of them ever told me anything about this war going on at that particular time, when they told me that later.\nQ.Very well. It is just as easy to answer the questions, simply.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2817, "page_number": "2255", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "Now, I understand you to say that the first time you learned of the proposed war against Poland was on August 21st, and even then it was not very clearly indicated that a war would actually be unleashed, and that actually it was not until the very eve of the attack, that is to say, at five o'clock in the afternoon of August 31st that you were directed to put the Luftwaffe, or all your forces in readiness for the attack. Is that correct? Is that what you said?\nA.On 31st August, not to alert, but I did receive the order that the attack would start tomorrow, whereas, previously over-all preparations had been made through the meeting which took place with Hitler on 22 August that there was a possibility of instituting negotiations, and these negotiations were to carry on, too. These negotiotions came to an end on 31 August at 1700 hours.\nQ.I understood you to say that after the meeting of May 23, 1939, you were convinced that war was not intended?\nA. 23 of May?\nQ.Yes, 23 May 1939?\nA.Yes.\nQ.That you had no intimation of Hitler's intentions of aggressive war on Poland?\nA.Yes, because at that time, according to my recollection, Hitler stated again and again that he was certainly going to settle the problem, and that he would not allow war to break out.\nQ.And that you had called to his attention the necessity of manufacturing bombs, because you believed that hostilities might break out.\nA.This had been the previous date before the 23rd, and also after the 23rd, because I myself did not share Hitler's optimism, because although he could not have intended to wage war, his policy might nevertheless have brought war just the same, but after all he was not alone.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2818, "page_number": "2256", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "The others would have something to say as well.\nQ.And that assumption lulled you into the conviction that there would be no war since he refused you authority to manufacture bombs?\nA.Today I have to realize that in that line, at that time I did not discover this.\nQ.Very well, and then you say that it was not until the 12th of October that you were authorized to manufacture bombs, is that correct?\nA.Yes.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2819, "page_number": "2257", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "QIn the meantime you had conquered Poland. What were you using against Poland, bonbons?\nAEvery bomb we had at the time, usually small type bombs, mostly explosive bombs of 10 kilograms weight.\nQYou said that you had only small bombs, 10, 60 and some of 250 kilograms, which you could drop in a few minutes, and then your bomb supply would have been exhausted.\nAWhat I said was this: During the 18 days of the Polish campaign we dropped approximately 60 per cent of all the bombs we had, although only 50 per cent of the air force was being employed in that theater. If then, now that we were at war with the Western countries too, an attack had come from there, then the air force would have remained without bombs after one week.\nQWhen did you first learn that an attack on Russia was intended?\nAAt the beginning of January 1941 -- I beg your pardon -- Yes, that is right, 1941, on 13 January actually. It was then that Goering during a conference in a large circle of commanding officers informed us, that ones' attention should, be drawn toward the East, as Hitler was fearing an attack by tho Russians.\nQYes, and you finally came to the conclusion that the declaration of war or rather, the undeclared war against Russia was a crime against Germany.\nAYes.\nQDid you think it was a crime against Russia?\nAAgainst Russia, yes.\nQAlso.\nAYes.\nQNow, you endeavored to see Hitler to persuade him not to enter this war.\nAYes.\nQAnd your immediate circle, your military friends, realized that it was foolhardy to provoke a war with Russia and thereby establish two fronts?", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2820, "page_number": "2258", "date": "30 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-30", "text": "AExactly the way I saw it, yes. My immediate circle were of the same opinion I was after we had spoken to him.\nQAnd all the generals were of the same impression -- that it was hopeless for Germany and that further it was tragic and suicidal to Germany to allow Hitler to take over the control of the armed forces? You were practically unanimous in that belief, were you not?\nAThis was never discussed in any larger circle.\nQBut you have testified here -- it is in the record -- that you were all of that belief.\nAThis transpired at a later stage, when it was discussed with him. Later we discovered that they were all of the same opinion.\nQWhen was that?\nAIn the course of the war.\nQWhen did you realize that it was a mistake to have Hitler as commander in chief of the armed forces?\nAI personally?\nQWhen was it so universally known, even though not expressed at a public meeting, among the generals, that it was suicidal, a great mistake, to have Hitler as the commander in chief?\nAGenerally the view arose after Stalingrad. That is when it became general.\nQAnd when was that?\nAThat was the end of January 1943.\nQYes. You still had two and a half years of war ahead of you?\nAYes.\nQWhy didn't you do something about having Hitler removed?\nAIt was my duty toward my people to maintain my allegiance. I had sworn an oath to keep allegiance to Hitler, too. I am only a human being who can see this world subjectively and I can not claim the ability to be an objective reporter of such situations, and I believe that in the whole of Germany's history there is not one example where soldiers arose against their military commander.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2821, "page_number": "2259", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "I certainly do not know of one.\nQEven though you realized that Hitler was leading Germany into stark annihilation and destruction, and even though all the generals were of that same belief, you yet upheld this fetish of an allegiance which was destined, and very clearly so, to bring unparelled misery to the people that you professed to be faithful to?\nAYour Honor, I personally did not claim the right to say that my judgment was right and that Hitler's judgment and the judgment of all those who were next to him was wrong.\nQThen, you modify your statement that Hitler was wrong? You say that he might have been right?\nANo, no, I am not saying that. What I am trying to say is that it was my point of view that the question whether the head of the state was to be over thrown or not was a matter for the constitution, and that for this eventuality the constitution and the powers of the state contained the means through which in such cases there could be intervention, but then it could not be the task of any individual general to take steps in such questions, which were, after all unlawful.\nQYou don't mean seriously to tell this Tribunal that you had constitutional government in Germany and that you would have to await the results of election to displace a man who was leading you into abysmal disaster?\nANo, no, that is not what I want to say.All I want to say is that something like that ought to be in existence; such institutions ought to be there, and, of course, apparently it was not possible, although, formally, the parliamentary system had been maintained, and, of course, there were ministers who, according to the constitution -and, this constitution had not been abolished in our country, you must remember, not formally speaking, that is -- who according to the constitution had the duty in their individual spheres to look after the interests of the people to the best of their ability.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2822, "page_number": "", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "Only the soldier in our country had no political functions.\nQWe'll sum it up this way, then, and see if you agree with the statements. That although you know as early as November 1941 that Germany was bound to destruction because of having entered a war, although you were more convinced of this when war was declared against Russia, and that no doubt at all remained in your mind after Stalingrad, that your people were doomed to a defeat with all the misery which accompanies it.\n2259A knowing all this, you yet continued with all your energies and all your intellectual forces to carry on this war, which could only bring more misery to your people, is that correct?", "speakers": [ "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2823, "page_number": "2260", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "A.I continued to do my duty as I had sworn to do, and may I , Your Honor, put one question? I have now spent two bitter years thinking it over in activity. What could a man like me have been able to do in practice?\nQ.There were many things you could have done. In the first place, you could have discussed with your brother generals how to remove this madman from the leadership of your nation. That is one thing you could have done. You did not line up with the generals who attempted to eliminate that Memicidal maniac in July 1944, did you?\nA. No.\nQ.No, the only way that you demonstrated your desire to help your people although you know that a continuation of the war could only bring them further misery, was to bring in more slave workers -- to threaten with machine guns , the hangman's noose, whips, and all other dire tortures and eventualities if they did not work. That is the way you attempted to dimish the horrors which were facing your people; is that correct?\nA.No, that is not correct.\nQ.Tell me one thing which you did which helped your people, to whom you profess such allegiance and whom you say you wished to help, when you know a continuation of the war could only load to the further tortures and horrors which your attorney so graphically described just a few minutes ago.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2824, "page_number": "", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "A.Of course, I could not foresee everything that happened or that could happen. Secondly, I myself considered it to be my duty to use all my force and power to create a home air defense for Germany so that our home country should not be destroyed. Had this plan succeeded, then Germany would have achieved a final position without the home country being destroyed, on the basis of which peace negotiations could have been possible. The awful thing about it all to no is that this effort of mine --- and as I have told you this effort was 2260(a) by no means a miner one -- nevertheless had failed, a thing which I recognized at the beginning of 1941.", "speakers": [ "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2825, "page_number": "2261", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "At that time, considering the possibilities I had at that time, I had nothing left but to try to retire.\nQ.To that extent it merely meant a continuation of the war, only on defensive lines?\nA.In order then to make peace.\nQ.Now, you say you could do nothing. Could you not have resigned? Could you not have tendered your resignation? Could you not have indicated that morally, spiritually, religiously , honestly, and according to all your conscientious scruples, you could not continue with a war that was encompassing the horrible destruction which we see on all sides of us here in Germany to say nothing of all of Europe?\nA. All that I told Hitler personally on 5 March.\nQ.Why couldn't you have resigned after Stalingrad?\nA.I tried that, but it was not possible. It was not accepted.\nQ.Why wasn't it possible? Why couldn't you write out and say, \"I, Ehard Milch. Hereby resign\"?\nA.That was turned down. It was said \"It is out of the question\".\nQ.Out of the question? Why? It was within your power to stay away from the office; you could have stayed away from troops. It wasn't really a matter of papers. It was a natter of will . You could have withdrawn from the war.\nA.In that form, according to the military conceptions in Germany, Your Honor, that was an impossibility. A German soldier could not do that.\nQ.You would have been executed; is that what you are loading up to?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2826, "page_number": "", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "A.That might not have been the main point as far as I was concerned. It would rave been utterly useless.\nQ.Then you were not honest with yourself, because you were convinced that it was unjust war, that it was an incorrect war, that it was a suicidal war, and yet, with all that, you lot every possible energy that you possessed -- and you had many -- to a continuation of that war.\nA.Your honor, whether I am convinced of something or not convinced, 2361(a) that is not a question for the soldier, and it is not tho decisive point for him not to do his duty.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2827, "page_number": "2262", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "Everyone who is a soldier must do his duty. I bad tried many a time to offer my resignation.\nQ.You did eventually offer a resignation which was accepted?\nA.No, no, I did not clearly make my exit, but through initiating a reorganization of the entire armament program, which succeeded, it was through that that I organized myself out.\nQ.Now to another subject: In explaining many extravagant utterances, utterances of fearful punishment to workers, were not meant. What you made these statements because you say that you were horribly depressed; is that correct?\nA.About what? I failed to understand.\nQ.You say that you were very much depressed, and because of your mental depression you uttered these remarks in anger.\nA.That was the exterior cause, the external cause. That was a disease of mine which I bad at the time, which was brought on through that.\nQ.You were depressed because Germany was losing the war?\nA.Yes.\nQ.You were not depressed because Europe had become a slaughterhouse and that human dignity had been defiled as it never had been before since nan know shame; you weren't depressed at that , were you?\nA.Oh, yes, those two things were closely connected as far as I was concerned.\nQ.You were concerned about what was happening to the human race in general, were you?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2828, "page_number": "", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "A.I was worried about tho entire war and the entire excesses of the affair, and all the dreadful things which this war brought upon us and which it would further bring upon us.\nQ.And being so concerned, you would order further excesses against the foreign workers by ordering machine guns and the whip and the hangman's noose?\nA.No such order was ever passed on. Never was such an order as much as issued. They were purely figures of speech, without any serious background.\n2262(a) I did neither want anything like that in reality, nor did I at any time give such an order.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2829, "page_number": "2263", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "Q.And do you think that those remarks contributed to the tranquility of the situation?\nA.You mean in my case? They were explosions, and somehow they gave me relief.\nTHE MARSHAL:The Tribunal is recessed until 1330 hours.", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2830, "page_number": "2264", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "AFTERNOON SESSION\nTHE MARSHAL:The Tribunal is again in session.\nDR. BERGOLD:If His Honor has no further questions, I would like to put one question.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Judge Phillips has some questions of the witness.\nBY JUDGE PHILLIPS:\nQ.Coming back to Prosecution Exhibit No.3, DocumentL-79, which is known as the Schmundt Report, I understood you to say, witness, that you attended that meeting?\nA.Yes, I did.\nQ.Were you there during the entire meeting?\nA.Yes, I was present at the entire meeting.\nQ.And you heard what was said there?\nA.Yes, I did.\nQ.And, after hearing that, I understood you to say that you had no idea that Poland was going to be attacked, or that war was imminent?\nA.Yes. There was no mention of an attack which was to take place. I understood before, after Goering spoke - did I hear that correctly?\nQ.I asked you the question, if you did not state on your examination, that after hearing this speech of Hitler's, that you had no idea that Poland was going to be attacked, or that war was imminent.\nA.Yes, no mention was made that Poland should be attacked.\nQ.Was Hitler's speech read or was it delivered without manuscript?\nA.Without a manuscript; it was improvised.\nQ.Was the report or stenographer present to take it down?\nA.No, there was not.\nQ.Did you receive a copy of it after it was written up?\nA.No.\nQ.You had never seen the so-called Schmundt Report until after this trial began?\nA.I saw it in the first Nuernberg trial.\nQ.Well, since these trials began?\nA.Yes, I saw it during the Nuernberg trial.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "THE MARSHAL" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2831, "page_number": "2265", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "Q.I'll ask you if it wasn't divided up - the speech - into various categories, beginning first with what had happened since he, Hitler, had become the Fuehrer in Germany, and then, the other possibilities that could be attained in Europe, then the attack on Poland, then what the struggle would be like, then the question as to whether or not it would be a long or a short war, then a discussion as to England's weakness, then a discussion as to the consequences of what would take place, then a discussion as to the unrestricted use of all resources, then the plan of attack, then the working principles of how ultimate victory would be attained? Now, do you tell the Tribunal that you heard none of those things discussed in this speech?\nA.Some of it had been discussed, but in a different sense from what the record says.\nQ.Well, do you know who would have made such a record as this and kept it in the German files of the Reich Ministry?\nA.I believe there was only one copy, which was with Hitler's staff. I don't believe that anybody else received a copy of the record.\nQ.So you want the Tribunal to believe that Hitler would make a false copy of this speech and keep it in his headquarters, and that was the only thing that was done?\nA.I say I don't believe that there was another copy, because I never heard anything about it, and Hitler never would issue any reports on his conferences, even in other cases, and it is my conviction that the report was put together later on, after the event, in order to falsify history.\nQ.That's your opinion?\nA.That is my opinion, yes.\nQ.But if the Tribunal finds this report to be true, you were one of the planners, the instigators, and one who started the war, is that correct?\nA.I'm not of that opinion.\nJUDGE PHILLIPS:All right, that's all.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "JUDGE PHILLIPS" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2832, "page_number": "2266", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "JUDGE MUSMANNO:Just a few more questions. I might say that neither defendant nor counsel must assume that these questions by me are being put hostilely, but only for the purposes of arriving at the truth, for the utmost clarification. As one of you phrased it - I don't quite understand the meaning of the phrase - \"You don't like to have the cat run around the hot porridge.\" I don't know what it means, but I presume it means you want clarification and that is what we are striving at.\nDR. BERGOLD:I understood that already this morning.\nBY JUDGE MUSMANNO:\nQ.Very well. Witness, you stated that it was a bad and ugly thing for prisoners of war to be used as they were used in the war?\nA.Yes, I did.\nQ.Yes. And then you explained that Russia had denounced the Geneva Convention and, while that did not permit you to maltreat Russian prisoners of war, it did not prohibit you from using them in the war effort, that is correct?\nA.Yes, it is. I'm not sure that the translation came through quite well. May I repeat that the fact that Russia no longer belonged to the Geneve Convention did not permit us to mistreat prisoners but it did permit us to use them for work.\nQ.Yes, that is what I said. But how do you explain the use of the Polish prisoners of war and the Italian prisoners of war and the French prisoners of war, prior to the agreement with the Vichy government?\nA.In the case of the French prisoners of war, the work concerned, as far as I know, because at that time I was not really connected with GL questions. After the Armistice --\nQ.Well, I said prior to the arrangement with the Vichy government. Whatever prisoners you captured before the surrender of France.\nA.I don't believe that they were assigned to work before that. Of course, I cannot say that precisely.\nQ.Very well, then, let us exclude the French prisoners then, and direct our attention to the Polish prisoners.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "JUDGE MUSMANNO" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2833, "page_number": "2267", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "A.The Polish prisoners of war, before I became GL, were made into civilian workers. That meant to them the end of their prisoner of war time.", "speakers": [ "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2834, "page_number": "2268", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "Q.Very well, that's your explanation and that's all I desire. Now, you are not charged with being a lawyer -- not that necessarily is an offense -- but you have made reference to international law in some of your speeches. Now, you sent prisoners of war to Braunschweig which you knew was a target for air attack on the part of the Allies.\nA.The barracks was not in Braunschwieg itself; it was about 15 or 20 kilometers outside the place. It was away from the attacks, and that the stay there was quite pleasant is shown by the fact that the troops which were there in the barracks did not wish to leave it, and the conversation quoted here refers to a dispute between one Luftwaffe Department that was responsible for the fighters, and myself who wished the barracks to be free in order to house the workers there.\nQ.Well then, if I misunderstood your explanation as to why you sent them there, then there is no point in my pressing it. If I understand, as you say now, that you sent them there because it was such a lovely location, wonderful accommodations, good food, and they enjoyed it, and you did it out of a benevolent and humanitarian impulse and not as a matter of carrying on the war, then of course, there is no point to my interrogation on this subject.\nA.Your Honor, the workers were to go there because outside Braunschweig a workshop was to be built near the barracks and that barracks were therefore so suitable, but there was no worry that the barracks would be attacked from the air.\nQ.Very well. I will read to you, just because I happen to have the book here and you may or may not be familiar with this provision in the Geneva Convention, that \"no prisoner may be sent to an area where he would be exposed to the fire of the fighting zone.\"\nNow, whether living 15 kilometers away from a target is considered within the area or not is a matter of interpretation, and we will leave that subject.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2835, "page_number": "", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "A.May I make one point here?\nQ.Certainly.\nA.In Germany there was no place where bombing attacks might not be expected.\n2268(a)", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2836, "page_number": "2269", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "Q.Very well. Now, you were opposed to the war from the very outset. You said you did not believe in war as soon as 1920 or in that period you believed that a war in Europe would be a madness.\nA.Yes.\nQ.And yet in spite of this conviction you allowed yourself to join a Party that was war mad; you helped to build up a fighting air force; you yourself participated in 40 sorties; you led an air fleet over helpless Norway and you carried on right to the very end against what you knew to be inconsistent with your principles.\nA.When I joined the Party in 1933 nobody said one word about a war. Nobody wanted war. If the Party had said it wanted war, the whole of the German people would not have joined the Party.\nQ.You do not believe that Germany was preparing for war? You state that as a fact?\nA.I state here that in 1933 and the following years, when the Party -- and even before 1933 --- when the Party received so many members, not one word of war was mentioned.\nQ.Did you believe as late as 1937 that Germany was headed for war?\nA.I am firmly convinced of that; Germany did not want war.\nQ.And in 1938?\nA.Even there I believe Hitler was so powerful at that time that his will could decide that question. And I was convinced that at that time Hitler did not want war; that he wanted by bluffing to obtain the extension of Germany.\nQ.Well, you did not believe that Germany was prepared for war as late as 1933 and the early part of 1939?\nA.That is my opinion, yes. Germany was not prepared -\nQ.Germany was not prepared for war and yet Germany defeated Poland in 18 days; defeated the British forces in six weeks; overran Holland and Belgium in a few days; brought France to her knees in two months; defeated Denmark and Norway almost immediately, and this was all done without any preparation for war?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2837, "page_number": "", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "2269(a)", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2838, "page_number": "2270", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "A.I didn't say that Germany wasn't armed. Germany had rearmed but armament does not necessarily mean that you intend war. According to the dictum, \"Para Bellum\" if you want peace, prepare for war. If you want peace, prepare for war. Be armed. That is how I thought the armament was meant. When I say that Germany was not prepared for war, events of this war proved this; that Germany was far too weak for a war because the politicians had to expect that they would not only have to fight a small part of their enemies; that even the more powerful nations than Germany would join in such a war. That had to be expected after the experiences of 1914, and against such a power Germany was not prepared.\nI could give you any amount of examples of this, but I don't think that we have enough time for that.\nQ.Very well. Now -\nA.If I may say one point? All of us were extremely surprised that Polish resistance was so small and even more surprised that the French Army, which was numerically equal to the German Army, should have attacked us at the same time when we were busy in Poland.\nQ.So when you saw that you could pluck one fruit easily, you then decided to pluck fruit from the whole orchard of Europe?\nA.War went on, in the West in the spring, but all I can say, I personally had no influence on these events.\nQ.You were a Field Marshal. How many Field Marshals were there?\nA.I became a Field Marshal after the French campaign, and at that time twelve were appointed after that campaign.\nQ.How many generals were there?\nA.I am not able to give you the figures in detail, several hundreds I should say.\nQ.Several hundreds. How many Hitlers were there?\nA.One.\nQ.One Hitler. Now all you generals and field marshals combined, with the reins 2270(a) of the war wagon in your hands.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2840, "page_number": "2271", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "Were you unable to unseat Hitler if they had a will to do so?\nANo sir, that was not possible; firstly, because the German people at that time believed in Hitler. They had no idea what Hitler was to do later on, and the German people would never have understood if anything had happened to its Hitler, and the generals never discussed this point during the war. There was no conspiracy among the generals, not even against their own government. If I said this morning, that after Stalingrad there was the general conviction among the higher officers that the war would end badly, we did not discuss it at the time, but only when I was taken prisoner when I discussed this with other generals, I heard that they shared my view at that time.\nQSo you were willing to follow this man ever the brink of ruin, rather than to do something to save your country and your people?\nAI believe I said with emphasis, and I personally know that it is so, that I did what I could within my power in order to influence Hitler directly or through my superior officer, Goering, to give him my clear opinion irrespective of my person or what would happen to me. That I regarded as my duty as a soldier and a Field Marshal, but it was not my duty as a soldier for myself alone to start an action which would have been against my oath.\nQTo whom was your oath?\nAI swore this oath to Hitler and -- and to the German nation.\nQTo one human being with all the frailties -\nAThe oath also applied to the whole of the German people. The German people had to have a chance to express their opinion, and as long as the German people followed Hitler, I could not leave my national community. Apart from that it would not have served any purpose if I had taken a step which you described this morning; nobody would have heard a word about that. The German press propaganda wireless would have referred with one word to it, that a general differed from his leaders and took the consequences.\nQIt occurs to me, and we will leave the subject after this question, that with all your abilities and your energies, if you had hurled yourself into a movement to stop the war, as you directed all your efforts toward carrying it on, mercilessly, that you could have eventually convinced many of your brother generals who already shared your opinions to do something to throttle the man who in turn was strangling Germany.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2841, "page_number": "2272", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "ASir, I think you overrate me. You overrate my possibilities and my abilities. If I may say one thing, it is not easy to describe the situation as it really was in our case, with a few words and answers. And as you yourself are unable to understand because conditions are so different in your own country; I know that you were more happy in your country, but I had to remain where I was.", "speakers": [ "A" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2842, "page_number": "2273", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "I was a German, and I had to remain a German because I hoped that through my efforts I might be able to avoid the worst in Germany. I know that in this struggle I was, in a minor sense, a leading man because the others were unable to see the conditions so clearly as I did as far as bombing warfare was concerned. And up to the end of 1943; I never gave up hope that I could do a great service to my country which would have at least made it possible to stave off destruction of our homeland or keep it down to more modest limits. Many hundreds of thousands of people's lives would have been saved who were killed by bombs, and, also, I could hope that then peace might be concluded which would have been more bearable for the German people. Such were my hopes, my hopes. That was what directed me, and I believe that the German soldier can not act towards his country otherwise, and I would welcome it if you would have doubted if I had the possibility to speak on the general, situations calmly and sensible.\nThis morning I said that for two years I only thought about one idea: How could it have all been prevented and avoided?\nQYes, you have answered that.\nHow many concentration camps were there in Germany, so far as you know, during the war?\nAI can give you no information on this point. I knew only two names.\nQYou knew of only two concentration camps?\nAI knew the names of two concentration camps. I assumed that there would be more but I never heard of another one and never saw any thing of another one.\nQWhen Goering telegraphed Himmler for concentration camp inmates for the Air Industry, and Himmler replied on March 9, 1944 that 36,000 prisoners of war were already employed in the Air Industry; that he would furnish 90,000 more, you did not know where they were coming from?\nANo, I did not, because they did not come through me; they did not go through our office at all.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2843, "page_number": "", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "Prisoners of war was mentioned here -- I should think you meant concentration camp inmates.\n2273A", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2844, "page_number": "2274", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "QPerhaps so. The transcript actually carried it as \"Prisoners of War,\" but that may have been an error. Now, one final question. You had this night-long conference with Hitler in March of 1943, and then in the spring of 1945 you say that Hitler was determined to be rid of you, and that it all went back to what you had so candidly told him two years before. Are we to understand by that Hitler withheld his hate, or his revenge against you for two years?\nAI didn't say it like that. I said that Speer, in the spring of 1945 told me that Hitler wished to eliminate me, and I personally said, \"I looked for reasons,\" and I said I thought that was to be explained by the fifth of March 43 because from that time onwards he behaved differently to me than he did earlier on.\nQAnd did the Gestapo conduct an investigation and find that you were utterly from their criterion of worth, blameless?\nANo, that is also incorrect, sir. I said Hitler explained to Speer why he took action against me by saying that Kaltenbrunner of the Gestapo had told him there was an enormous amount of material against me, that I was an enemy of the State. And thereupon Speer asked -- as he was a friend of mine -- that he would like to look into the material before anything is done. Hitler gave permission and then it was shown by the inquiries of Speer that the Gestapo had no material against me.\nQThat is all -\nASpeer reported that to Hitler, and Hitler said, \"I don't care whether there is material or not -- that man must be liquidated.\"\nQThat is all -\nAThat is what it was.\nBY DR. BERGOLD:Your Honors, I have a few questions.\nQWitness, you spoke of the German people not wanting war in 1939. Please describe to us the attitude of the Berlin population when, in March of 1939, the tanks moved towards Czechoslovakia?\nAI believe on 13 March -- 13 March I left theAir Ministry in order to go to lunch. The streets had been blocked because through the Wilhelmstrasse, where our ministry was, a long column of tanks were marching.", "speakers": [ "A", "BY DR. BERGOLD", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2845, "page_number": "2275", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "I stood among the people and I was in civilian clothes. People were completely silent and no nobody saluted the soldiers, as was usual in Germany. People were very depressed. And I heard the same evening or next day that Goering said that Hitler had intentionally sent a tank division through Berlin because the people of Berlin did not approve his actions - or at least so it seemed. He wished to show people. He wished to put them under pressure, as it were. There is an expression \"in order to fortify one's spine\". I use that expression because I never forgot its peculiarity. It was such a strange impression to notice opposition on the people's faces although they didn't even know - nothing had been released. But it was feared there might be complications.\nQWitness, what did Hitler do after the Polish campaign as far as France and Britain were concerned?\nAIt was officially announced and I believe he explained this in the Reichstag, and then the papers and the wireless carried it, that he had made an offer of peace and that the peace offer was made in the first half of October. But no reply came back, or at least an insufficient reply, and it led to Hitler, giving the order on 12 October: \"The War Goes On!\" And now bombs must be manufactured which were still not available.\nQWitness, my last question - and I am referring back to the case of Braunschweig. When I examined you, you gave us reasons why you sent the prisoners of war to Braunschweig.\nAFirst of all, we needed workers there.Amanufacturing process was in full swing there about 15 or 20 kilometers north of Braunschweig, near those barracks. More workers should be sent there and as Sauckel had given us prisoners of war for that purpose, I was glad because prisoners of war, because young strong people, would help more efficiently in the work, particularly if something went wrong in the factories, for instance, if a fire broke out, etc.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2846, "page_number": "", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "because the old people and the women who were there at the time, were physically at a loss in such a situation.\nQAfter bombing attacks, were prisoners of war used to extinguish fires in order to help the German people?\n2275 a", "speakers": [ "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2847, "page_number": "2276", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "AAs far as I heard, in cases of many fires, prisoners of war helped very efficiently in extinguishing fires; very many prisoners of war were released by the government and sent home as a token of gratitude in order to reward a good deed. I know several cases, myself.\nQThank you very much. I have no further questions of this witness.\nTHE PRESIDENT:All right. The defendant may resume his place in the deck.\nDR. BERGOLD:I would ask to be allowed to call the witness, Reinecke.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Marshal, please bring the witness, Reinecke, into the courtroom.", "speakers": [ "A", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2848, "page_number": "2277", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "THE PRESIDENT: Has this witness been here before?\nMR. DENNEY:The witness Reinecke before this Court? No, Your Honor, the witness Vorwald has; the witness Reinecke has not.\nHERMANNREINECKE, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:\nTHE PRESIDENT:The witness will raise his right hand and repeat after me, please:\nI swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.\n(The witness repeated the oath.)\nYou may be seated.\nDIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. BERGOLD:\nQWitness, will you please speak slowly and I will also ask you to make a little pause after each question put to you so that the translator can finish translating my question.\nAYes, sir.\nQPlease give the Court your Christian name and second name.\nAHermann Reinecke.\nQWhen were you born?\nA 14 February 1888.\nQWhere?\nAIn Wittenberg.\nQWhat was your last rank in the Wehrmacht?\nAGeneral, Infantry.\nQWitness, what was your position in 1942 in the Wehrmacht?\nAI was the chief of the General Wehrmacht Office with the OKW.", "speakers": [ "HERMANN", "THE PRESIDENT", "MR. DENNEY", "Q", "A" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2849, "page_number": "", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "QWas this office in charge of prisoners of war?\nAYes, to a certain extent. One of my departments was the department for prisoners of war.\nQWitness, I shall now ask you, in 1942, did the defendant Milch or General von Gablenz, or any other officer of the Luftwaffe approach you requesting you to give your agreement, or to give the order directing that French prisoners of war should be shot before the employees of the factory if they refused to work?\n2277 a", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2850, "page_number": "2278", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "ANo, it is very difficult after five years to remember all single conferences and talks; but I should certainly remember such a question.\nQDo you know the General of the Luftwaffe von Gablenz at all?\nANo, I do not know him.\nQWitness, were French prisoners of war always well provided for and looked after?\nAYes. The French Government had appointed the French ambassador Scapini to look after their own prisoners of war. Scapini was an old soldier himself and was blinded in the war and worked with me very intimately and zealously; and we discussed all questions concerning French prisoners of war.\nQWitness, is it correct that you together with Scapini released over a million of French prisoners of war?\nAI can not give you the exact figures; but we certainly released a large number of prisoners of war, and sent them back home. Both of us on our own initiative released a large number of prisoners of war, off officers as well as NCO's and enlisted men, although I really wasn't justified in doing so.\nDR. BERGOLD:I have no further questions to ask this witness. Your witness, Mr. Denney.\nCROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. DENNEY:\nQWhen did you assume the command of the office that dealt with prisoners of war?\nAI took over as chief of the General Wehrmacht Office in 1938; and the Prisoners of War Department was formed when war broke out, roughly in September 1939.", "speakers": [ "A", "DR. BERGOLD", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2851, "page_number": "", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "Q So you were in charge of prisoners of war for the Wehrmacht starting in September 1939 when the war broke out until what date?\nAI did not actually have the supervision of prisoners of war. We only had certain tasks which were important for the hone front. If the prisoners of war were in occupied territories, they were under the Wehrmacht branches generally under the Army.\n2278 a", "speakers": [ "A" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2852, "page_number": "2279", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "Q.Will you answer the question that I asked you, Witness? You were in charge of an office in the Wehrmacht which had to do with prisoners of war starting in September of 1939 and you continued to hold that position until when?\nA.Without any change, up to January 1944. Then I was given another task; and as chief of the Wehrmacht office I was relieved by a permanent deputy. Then I took it over again fully from March 1945 until the end of the war.\nQ.And at the time that you had a permanent deputy, starting January 1, 1944 you were still in charge of it, were you not?\nA.Yes; but I was relieved from my responsibility because there were so many things I could not do myself. However, my permanent deputy always informed me on the most essential points.\nQ.Now, you knew that prisoners of war were used to work in German armament factories?\nA.Work in armament factories was not forbidden by the Convention. The Convention only forbade that prisoners of war should be used to manufacture arms, ammunition, and to transport such things to the troops. I do not recollect it precisely; but that, I think, is roughly what the Convention said.\nQ.Well, you knew that in Germany prisoners of war worked in factories that produced arms, munitions, material that was used by the Wehrmacht and its branches.\nA.I must make a more precise statement here. To work in such an armament factory as Krupp is not an offense against the Convention. They can be employed there and could have been employed in such work with tasks which were not connected with the manufacture of munitions and arms; but I know, and Scapini once told me that--\nQ.We're not interested in what Mr. Scapini told you; and I'm not interested in your making speeches. You can make all the speeches you. want to when Dr. Bergold is up here. Just answer my question. You knew that prisoners of war worked in factories that manufactured armaments, munitions, and material that was used by the Wehrmacht or its branches, didn't you?\nA.Specific knowledge I do not have.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2853, "page_number": "2280", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "Q.Well, did you have general knowledge of it?\nA.I did not know any details that they worked at places which were prohibited generally, that is to say, that they worked on producing armaments. It was once told me by Scapini, and I attempted to clarify that matter. At that time Keitel, the chief of the OKW, told me that in that respect no objection could be raised by us, because Sauckel and the French government had come to a special agreement on the basis of the Convention.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Do you give up, Mr. Denney?\nMR. DENNEY:Oh, no, sir.\nQ.You knew that you furnished prisoners of war to Sauckel to work; furnished prisoners of war to Sauckel, the General Plenipotentiary for Labor, to do work, didn't you?\nA.I don't follow the last point, that Sauckel asked ---?\nQ.Well, just withdraw everything, and we'll do it in steps. Did you know Sauckel?\nA.Yes, of course.\nQ.Fritz Sauckel?\nA.Yes, indeed.\nQ.What was his position?\nA.Sauckel was -- what was the name? He was the Plenipotentiary for the Assignment of Labor.\nQ.Now you furnished labor to Sauckel, prisoners of war, didn't you?\nA.Well, that wasn't done by the OKW, the employment of prisoners of war was made independently by the commands of the Wehrkreise.\nQ.Well, all right. Did the Wehrkreis commands furnish prisoners of war to Sauckel to be used as laborers?\nA.Yes, of course, in connection with the representatives of the labor exchanges and the economic offices.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "MR. DENNEY", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2854, "page_number": "2281", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "Q.Yes and once those prisoners of war had been furnished to Sauckel, you lost control over them, didn't you? You had nothing to do with them any more after that?\nA.The OKW, no, no. The camps according to the rules and regulations, before the prisoners of war were assigned to work had to examine the order to see if it was in accordance with the regulations, and if it was not in accordance with the regulations they were not allowed to be employed.\nQ.So that you did check, you or your subordinates either in your office of the OKW office, for prisoners of war or in the various \"Wehrkreisen\", in and determined in every instance what kind of work a prisoner of war was going to do before he was released to Sauckel?\nA.Yes, that went quite automatically through the camps. The OKW did not deal with the details at all, we only sent the prisoners of war to the aircraft command, and then the whole operation went on automatically. It was not agreed between Sauckel and OKW that prisoners of war could be sent to such and such an organization, but that was done locally on application.\nQ.Yes, but prisoners of war would be sent out to the \"Wehrkreisen\" when the labor administration had asked for workers, and they would be assigned to the labor administration. Is that correct? And then they'd go to work?\nA.Yes, quite.\nQ.And then you are certain that none was ever employed in any occupation that in any way violated the Geneva Convention?\nA.Well, that is very difficult to answer.\nQ.That was your job?\nA.No, that was not my job.\nQ.You were head of all the prisoners of war?\nA.Firstly I was not a superior on that question but we merely worked on that point for the OKW, and secondly, on these questions as to assignment, there were decrees according to which the branches had to act, as the Wehrkeris Commander was not my subordinate. I had no official position in this natter.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2855, "page_number": "2282", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "That was not organized along the American line, when then there is a commander of war. We were completely decentralized.\nQ.You did not know what kind of work prisoners of war did?\nA.Generally they were used wherever there was a shortage of labor in industry and in agriculture.\nQ.You were a member of the People's Court, were you not?\nA.Of what?\nQ.You tried some Generals arising out of an incident that took place on 20 July 1944. Haven't I seen your picture in the movies as a member of the court?\nA.Yes, you did.\nQ.And you also were the general who on 8 September signed an order in reference to Russian prisoners of war, which order Admiral Canaris commented on 15 September 1941, which was put in evidence in the first trial, which is quoted in the judgment, and you had stated that the Soviet Union was not a party at the Geneva Convention, and Admiral Canaris in his comment on your order said that, \"The Geneva Convention for treatment of prisoners of war is not binding in the relationship between Germany and the USSR. Therefore, only the principles of general international law on the treatment of prisoners of war applied. Since the 18th century these have gradually been established along the lines that war captivity is neither a revenge nor a punishment but solely a protective custody, the only purpose of which is to prevent the prisoners of war from further participation in the war. The principle was developed in accordance with the view held by all armies, that it is contrary to military tradition to kill or injure helpless people. The decrees for the treatment of Soviet prisoners of war enclosed are based on a fundamentally different view\" and to the protest made by Admiral Canaris to the orders which you had signed with reference to the treatment of Russian prisoners of war, Keitel, who was your chief in the OKW, said, \"The objections\" - speaking of what Admiral Canaris said - \"arise from the military concept of chivalrous warfare. This is the destruction of an ideology:", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2856, "page_number": "2283", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "therefore, I approve and back the measures\".\nDo you recall that?\nA.Am I to have said all of this?\nTHE PRESIDENT:Now do you give up?\nMR. DENNEY:Maybe I ought to, Your Honor, but I won't.\nBY MR. DENNEY:\nQ.You say you worked very closely with a man named Scapini?\nA.Yes, sir, I did.\nQ.Did you know who Scapini was?\nA.Yes.\nQ.Now he received a letter, you said you worked very closely with him, in reference to French prisoners of war?\nA.Yes, quite.\nQ.And anything that came up with reference to French prisoners of war of course went through him, didn't it?\nA.Yes, and he passed on complaints when they were complaints.\nQ.Yes, when complaints came up from below they went to Scapini, and Scapini came to see you?\nA.Yes.\nQ.You were the head man?\nA.Yes, otherwise they went through the offices.\nQ.Now I show a letter that Scapini wrote back, which is the German copy Exhibit No. 132 for identification, if Your Honor please. It is the reply that Scapini made to the protest made by the French prisoner of war Paul Le Friec, who testified here as a witness.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Mr. Denney, do you have English translations of this Exhibit. We don't seem to have it.\nMR. DENNEY:No, I am sorry, Your Honor. Do you have a German copy, Dr. Bergold?\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes, and I still want it.\nMR. DENNEY:Exhibit No. 132 for identification, Your Honor.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2857, "page_number": "2284", "date": "30 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-30", "text": "BY MR. DENNEY:\nQ.Do you recall, witness, Scapini taking up this matter with you? Just answer the questions. Don't make speeches, please. Did Scapini take this matter up with you?\nA.It is possible, yes.\nQ.And does this letter which I have shown you substantially set forth your attitude about this question?\nA.I did not recall it that way, and as I said before Keitel had told me Scapini had concluded an agreement with the French government that the convention itself reflected -- I don't know the particular paragraph in that convention but that a new agreement had replaced the old convention, and that seems to be the case, because I now recall that Keitel had also said that the French prisoners of war were considerably helped in the future by the casening of the situation, and they were much better off than they would be under the obligation arising out of the Geneva Convention.\nQ.Did you agree with what is set forth in this document. Is that substantially your position in reference to that matter? Don't tell me anything about Keitel or Sauckel or anybody else. Just answer the question.\nA.My personal attitude on that point was not decisive. The decision on these matters was up to Keitel or Hitler.\nQ.But whatever Keitel or Hitler said you agreed with, is that right?\nA.No not at all. In many, many cases I made strong protests and I tried especially in many cases to divert certain matters with regard to prisoners of war and to prevent them from being carried out until these regulations were given. My task was to make the proposition or comment on orders which were given and these I made precisely.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Do you mind if I give up and take a recess?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2858, "page_number": "", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "MR. DENNEY:No, we can take a recess, but not to give up on this.\nTHE MARSHAL:The Tribunal will recess for fifteen minutes.\n(A recess was taken).\n2284-a", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2859, "page_number": "2285", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "THE MARSHAL:The Tribunal is again in session.\nQ. (By Mr. Denney): Did you know that prisoners of war were employed in Airplane factories?\nA.Well, I do not know that in detail, no. I never did have the opportunity to bother with details.\nQ.No, I am sure you didn't, but do you know whether or not they were? You can answer that yes or no.\nA.I really can't tell you that exactly. I never dealt with the details. That some of the people had been used in the aircraft factories is possible of course.\nQ.Some of the prisoners of war?\nA.Yes, I think so. I take it.\nQ.Well, there is no sense in prolonging this. I will read you an order that you signed on 8 September, 1941, one of many orders that you signed. Listen and see if you recall. This is taken from the judgement of the International Military Tribunal and has to do with murder and ill treatment of prisoners of war. I am quoting from Page 229 of the First Volume, the official transcript of the record.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:The reporters aren't getting it, Mr. Denney, something is wrong.\nMR. DENNEY:The English reporters?\nTHE PRESIDENT:The German reporters.\nQ.I am reading, Your Honors, from the First Volume of the official record of the International Military Tribunal in English, Page 229 of that volume. Lister to this, Witness. On 8 September, 1941, Regulations for the Treatment of Soviet Prisoners of War in all prisoner of war camps are issued signed by General Reinecke, the head of the Prisoner of War Department of the High Command. These orders stated, \"The Bolshevist soldier has therefore lost all claim to treatment as an honorable opponent in accordance with the Geneva Convention. The order for ruthless and energetic action must be given at the slightest indication of insubordination, especially in the case of Bolshevist fanatics. Insubordination, active or passive resistance must be broken immediately by force of arms, bayonets, butts, and firearms.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "THE PRESIDENT", "MR. DENNEY", "THE MARSHAL", "JUDGE MUSMANNO" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2860, "page_number": "2286", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "Anyone carrying out the order who does not use his weapons or does so with insufficient energy is punishable. Prisoners of war attempting escape are to be fired on without previous challenge. No warning shot must ever be fired. The use of arms against prisoners of war is, as a rule, legal.\" You signed that order, didn't you?\nA.Not the order. The directives had been issued by Keitel and I signed the circular. I did not issue the order either.\nQ.You signed the circular passing the order on?\nA.Yes, I signed this covering order upon which is written, the order was issued. In other words, this was not signed upon my orders but by the chief of the OKW, who had given the order.\nQ.You passed it on?\nA.Yes, of course I did. These directives had been set up by Hitler or Keitel respectively, and they had been given out with the ordinance to the Wehrkreise.\nQ.You were in charge of prisoners of war?\nA.I was not the commander in chief in prisoners of war matters, never, nor did I have any powers whatsoever to issue orders. I was just the office and I told you that 90 percent dealt with other things and 10 percent dealt with the treatment of prisoners of war.\nQ.But part of your 10 percent in dealing with prisoners of war was passing on this order?\nA.Yes, the order was passed on.\nQ.By you.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2861, "page_number": "2287", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "A.Yes, the order was passed on, and partly signed by me.\nQ.By you?\nA.Yes, it was passed on by me, upon orders.\nMR. DENNEY:Your witness.\nDR. BERGOLD:I have no further questions, Your Honor.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The Marshal will remove the witness.\nDR. BERGOLD:I would appreciate it if General Vorwald could be sent in. I would like to explain one thing here, Your Honor.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The witness Vorwald, please.\nDR. BERGOLD:I examined the witness Reinecke yesterday, in the presence of representative of the prosecution--rather, I only saw him, with Mr. Kaufmann, and I did not ask him any further questions than what I had asked him here in this Tribunal. The whole thing only took five minutes.\nTHE PRESIDENT:This witness has been sworn heretofore. I advise the witness that any statements now made will be made under oath, under the oath administered when he was a witness previously. Do you understand?\nTHE WITNESS:Yes I do.\nGeneral Vorwald, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:\nREDIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. BERGOLD:\nQ.Witness, I will submit to you a document,NOKW-352, Exhibit No 132. The speech of the Plenipotentiary General for Lacor, Sauckel, will be submitted to you and I want you to take a look at it. (Document handed to witness. ) Would you look up page number one of the speech, or number two, as it says here --\nTHE PRESIDENT:Dr. Bergold, Exhibit 132 is the Soapini letter.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "MR. DENNEY", "THE WITNESS" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2862, "page_number": "", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "DR. BERGOLD:Oh, yes. 133 --excuse me.\nQ. (Cont'd) I want you to take a look at Page number 11 and page number 12. Can you see that?\nA.Yes.\nQ.You will find there dashes in parentheses marked in red pencil.\nA.Yes.\n2287 (a)", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2863, "page_number": "2288", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "QWitness, in the office of the GL, was it customary that only Milch used a red pencil, or did other gentlemen in there also use a red pencil?\nANo. I, for instance, myself, also used a red pencil. Other gentlemen also used a red pencil. The Field Marshal, most of the time, if he marked something, and if he made certain remarks to it, he resigned it by putting MI and also the date.\nQThank you. Witness, were you present at the conference which took place on the 28th of October 1943 with Goering and were Speer and Sauckel also present?\nANo, I was not there when they were there.\nQI shall come now to Exhibit No. -- just a moment, please. My other copies were not in order.\nWitness; did you ever find cut at any place that Americans were to be employed at the firm of Dornier-Oberpfaffenhofen in June 1944?\nANo.\nQDid Herr Milch ever tell you that he had ordered or agreed to having Americans work in the air armament?\nANo, and I never heard of that, and I don't believeAmericans were employed.\nQWitness, I shall come now toNOKW-418, Exhibit No. 136. This is a meeting with the GL. I would like to ask you now, generally speaking, with reference to this GL meeting, what kind of records were taken during the GL conferences?\nAI already mentioned that fact last time. There was a verbatim record which was taken down by two female stenographers, and this verbatim record was then reviewed by an engineer of my office, namely, of the \"C\" Office, or rather, taken by him, and that record was completed which was to go to the various divisions of the offices, and the various places of the Ministry, and to all those people who were interested in it. In other words, the small record is the only one that went out, which had been regularly signed by myself and submitted to the Field Marshal.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2864, "page_number": "2289", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "Only this record had any value whatsoever on the outside. The verbatim records were kept by Herr Richter, who sent them to Mr. Milch, and therefore there were only two copies of every meeting.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2865, "page_number": "2290", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "Q.Witness, if you say in other words, those office records or executive records were signed by you, what do you mean by that? Can you explain why this happened?\nA.Yes, in these long verbatim records there were so many things that were not considered very important, and what happened during the conversation which was not too important, or something which was not on the record, was struck out. The most important things or the most important conclusions that were reached during the meetings, and the directives that went out to the various offices, and whatever was important for the GL, we compiled that in a short record which contained either three or four pages.\nQ.Witness, and you reviewed those records.\nA.Yes, everytime, because most of the time they were technical things which were being discussed there, things perhaps that the planning office was interested in, which was our parallel office and they were controlled or reviewed by the chief of that branch, and I received it as the last person and I then sent it to the Field Marshal for his signature.\nQ.In other words, one can say that records from the GL conference which were not signed by you and Milch had no value whatsoever, not an official value anyway?\nA.Yes.\nQ.Witness, you said that these verbatim records were kept by Herr Richter in the ante-room of Mr. Milch?\nA.Yes, I only went through one of these records myself.\nQ.Was it entirely correct or did it contain mistakes?\nA.This verbatim record was full of mistakes, and it is quite obvious because at such a meeting where perhaps thirty to fifty people were present, sometimes there were several interpolations, and two shorthand stenographers could not possibly follow.\nQ.Witness, is there the possibility that the stenographers used their takes in order to make copies of those and give than to other people?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2866, "page_number": "2291", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "What were the orders the stenographers had?\nA.The stenographers -- the Field Marshal's stenographers had strict orders that their takes, just as they are taken here in this Court, were to be given to Richter after they had been transcribed and also to turn in the transcript as well.\nQDid an order exist that the stenographers had to destroy their first takes?\nA.The first takes always had to be destroyed.\nQ.Were the stenographers sworn to do that?\nA.Yes, the Field Marshal always pointed out that fact before the meeting started. I remember that.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:Dr. Bergold, it isn't clear to me just what is meant by the first takes were destroyed. Here I understand that a \"take\" refers to a certain period of time, twenty minutes or so.\nDR. BERGOLD:No, no, he means by that, that the take, or rather, the stenotypist writes down on a piece of paper whatever he has taken down, and then he transcribes it on the typewriter, and the paper, like this one right before you, that paper was to be destroyed. That was considered the first take, the original of the shorthand take.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:Yes, I see.\nQ.Witness, did you have the duty of supervising the execution of the decisions made in the GL meetings?\nA.Yes, because most of the things discussed were referring to my office itself, because they were technical meetings, the questions of raw material and laborers always appeared. However, most of the things dealt with development on Tuesday, sometimes on Friday or requisitioning, or sometimes on development things; in other words, all purely technical matters. That is the reason why I had been told by the Field Marshal to draw up the program for every meeting and to inform the participating agencies before the meeting; in other words, all the agencies in the Ministry and also the General Staff and the executive sections, etc.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "Q", "JUDGE MUSMANNO" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2867, "page_number": "", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "Q.Witness, in that discussion of 5 May 1942, DocumentNOKW-480, Exhibit 136, Milch, with reference to the French prisoners of war, said 2291 (a) the following:", "speakers": [ "Q." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2868, "page_number": "2292", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "\"Gablenz, I would appreciate it if you could contact Reinecke, with reference to the French. I want you to see to it that people, be placed against the wall and be shot in front of all the other employees when they refuse to work. In other words, I want you to contact the Reichsfuehrer SS and ask him to bring the whole matter to the Fuehrer's attention. This would be the correct moment to reach great aims by interfering, or else the other people will also act in the same way. I request that the sending of these people into special camps also be considered. Later on I will read to you how such a matter should be dealt with. In other words, I do not agree. You should make another suggestion. The first few days will not help any anyway.\"\nAI do not understand the last thing.\nQWitness, I don't understand the last statement either. I am assuming first of all, that the record is correct. Do you know whether this order to Gablenz was ever actually carried out, and whether Gablenz talked to Reinecke, and whether he got in touch with the Reichsfuehrer SS?\nANo, this matter would have had to come to my knowledge if such stops had been initiated, because during one of the following meetings this report would have had to be put before the Field Marshal, and apart from that Gablenz had no contact with Himmler and couldn't have any contact with him, because there wasn't any type of collaboration between those two. He certainly didn't talk to Reinecke either, because I would have heard of that, and during some meeting or other the report demanded by the Field Marshal would have had to be read out, but that didn't happen. I said before, the points for the program wore drafted by me even for other departments.\nQWitness, then how do you explain this statement?\nAThat's one of those outbursts of fury to which we were accustomed in the case of the Field Marshal. I recollect that during this and various other meetings dealing with the program in France, the program which was running on behalf of the Air Force and which was mentioned here the other day, wasn't turning out enough and the Field Marshal became furious, and these outbursts of fury were well known and we knew about them, and whatever was the outcome of that outburst couldn't be taken seriously.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2869, "page_number": "2293", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "We knew perfectly well he didn't mean it and that any of the things he said in such cases were impossible.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2870, "page_number": "2294", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "QWitness, if he had such attacks of rage, could you see an outward sign, a physical sign.\nAYes, I always used to sit on his left--during the meetings he sat on my right--and I could see how his neck became red and how it was swelling. And I knew how he would burst out.\nQWitness, please, will you tell this Tribunal how the members of your Staff would previously act with regard to such outbursts? What -actually what do you know?\nAWell, actually bets were made. It might sound funny to you now, but I have got to say so. Bets were made on whether he would break out with regard to the matter that come up for discussion.He was known for that, and all the people working under me, even from other departments, knew this. And they know that that was not to be taken too tragically. First of all, there was nothing you could do; if we had taken any steps in the sense of what he said and how these minutes wore pictured, then we certainly would have been ourselves shouted at by Himmler.\nQWitness, so that there were previous bets that such outbursts would occur?\nAYes; people from my department were always address in such a manner so they were told they would be put against the wall or hanged, I remember the Chief of the Engine Department, with whom the Field Marshal was angry, was being interrupted and on one occasion his collar burst and he said, \"I am going to have you hanged.\"\nQSo that such outbursts of rage against members of the Staff weren't normally taken down in the minutes.....?\nAI don't believe they were, because, after all, all of us would stick together like tar on paper, and we would go through thick and thin with the Field Marshal. And we would never allow things like that to penetrate to the outside.\nQYes, I see. Witness, during such conferences, only members from the GL were there?", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2871, "page_number": "", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "AYes, most of these conferences were of an internal nature. There were representatives of the main committees which had previously been called the Industrial Committee. They were considered by us as being members of our 2294a little circle, as we say.", "speakers": [ "A" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2872, "page_number": "2295", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "Q.Witness, with reference to these outbursts of rage and the instructions and opinions of Milch--did you tell third persons about it?\nA.No, every one of us never took any one of those things outside because such statements would have put our chief in a bad light outside.\nQ.So that other people never heard of what Milch would be saying during such meetings?\nA.No; a member of the general staff was there but he, too, was considered a member of the family, and knew the Field Marshal's habits.\nQ.Witness, I am once again coming back to the wording of those minutes. I have read to you that he gave Gablenz instructions regarding some action taken regarding the s hooting of Frenchmen, and what is the meaning of the sentence: \"I do, therefore, not agree. Make another stich, please.\"\nWould the possibility exist that the first part of the sentence was wrongly taken down?\nA.It is very possible because the way you have worded it to me, it doesn't make sense at all. I mean the second, with reference to the first.\nQ.Thank you. Witness, I am turning to DocumentNOKW 407, Exhibit 137. I shall read it to you. It is from Gablenz. \"Yesterday, the first of October, Best in France in the Arado works, is an explosive subject and nothing happened.\" Can you make yourself a picture? Can you draw a picture of the event at the works?\nA.We didn't have much manufacturing going on in the Arado Works in France. I mentioned it the other day that we were having aircraft engines made in France for the YU-52 aircraft, but Arado wasn't being used for such manufacturing work. But the word \"buoyant explosive\" would bring me to the conclusion that perhaps we must have been concerned with a naval airport, and an Arado-96 aircraft which was a reconnaissance aircraft, a naval reconnaissance aircraft; and it is possible that such an aircraft is being made reference to, and that such aircraft station in a naval airport was the subject of a sabotage attempt; but, of course, I can't actually remember this individual case.\nQ.Witness, Milch then says: \"What happened in consequence: I want a aircraft; and it is possible that such an aircraft is being referred to, and that such an aircraft station in a naval airport was the subject of a sabotage attempt, but, of course, I can't actually remember this individual case.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2873, "page_number": "", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "Q.Witness, Milch then says: \"What happened in consequence: I want a 2295a report of what happened.", "speakers": [ "Q." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2874, "page_number": "2296", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "How many people were shot and how many were hanged?\"\nA.I have got to laugh about that, about these expressions.\nQ.It goes on to say, \"If that character isn't discovered, then fifty men will be counted and I would suggest three or four hanged -whether they are guilty or not. There is only one method.\"\nWhat do you consider the value of this statement? Would you say it was serious?\nA.It was meant exactly the same way as those other things. We never listened anymore. After all; we made bets beforehand how many were going to hang today, and how many he was going to shoot...\nQ.Is it known to you that a report of such shootings actually was received?\nA.No, I mean, I said that the other day. He had no authority to decide life and death of foreign workers or prisoners of war. That power was only held by the Reichmarshal, and he had got it from the Fuehrer. He, himself, couldn't give any such instructions. prisoners of war weren't under his jurisdiction; foreign workers weren't under his jurisdiction; and our own workers weren't under his jurisdiction, from the point of view of discipline. It was the execution of some such statement which wasn't probable at all.\nQ.But the Tribunal always believed that it might have become known and it might have incited other people to do things like this; isn't that possible?\nA.Well, I mean, matters like that didn't get into the minutes, the record which went cut.\nA.Witness, after all, records like that which I have always talked about -- these instructional records -- they ought to be available if the other type is there. But you wouldn't find a single one of those instances contained therein. Witness, I am turning to NOKW 406, Exhibit 138.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2875, "page_number": "", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "JUDGE MUSSMANO:Did he say it didn't get into the minutes? We have the minutes right here. That is the way we found out.\nDR. BERGOLD:No; I am talking about the executive records. The witness previously said there were two types of records; first of all, the verbatim, thick ones, and then the thing that was really decided and really ordered -\n2296 a the executive, instructional records which were actually signed by the witness and by Milch.", "speakers": [ "JUDGE MUSSMANO", "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2876, "page_number": "2297", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "And it is only those, the letter that contained the orders and it is those executive records of which not a single one has been submitted in this court. In order to check I have had all the records given to me. These are records that I have checked in one case and they amounted to two hundred and eighteen -- in one case. Whereas, the executive records only contained very few pages and what Your Honors have here are all verbatim minutes. You see that from the way names are listed and the way conversations are quoted; that is, the executive minutes only contained orders. Is that correct, witness?\nA.Yes. The way this record would look is as follows: The heading on the left side; G L, Technical Department, and then CE, and then a number 11, and then the year, and then CB, if it was a material affair. Then followed participants, record of a meeting on such and such a day, and then followed the individual points, beginning with one. And, on the right-hand side, set out, who had to give what sort of instructions.\nBY JUDGE PHILLIPS:\nQ.Witness, the defendant has gone on the stand in this case and admitted under oath that this very document you are talking about, that he initialed this document with pencil in his own handwriting; and you say that is not an official document.\nA.I did not understand what minutes or records you are talking about, Your Honor.\nQ.The minutes that Dr. Bergold has just examined you by, Prosecution's Exhibit 137.\nDR. BERGOLD:Your Honor, may I show one example to the witness?\nBY JUDGE PHILLIPS: Just a minute; I haven't finished.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2877, "page_number": "", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "Q.Do you know that the defendant has gone upon the stand and testified under oath, after having looked at the back of this exhibit, that he in his own handwriting initialed it, put his initials upon the back of it as a meeting of this Central Planning Board; transcript of the record of the conference of the 27th of May, 1942. Do you know that?\nA.No.\n2297 a", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2878, "page_number": "2298", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "Q.And now you tell the Tribunal that this is not an official record even though the defendant says he initialed it himself.\nA.Just now you were talking about a report of the Central Planning Board, and, as far as those reports from the Central Planning Board are concerned, I don't know anything about them at all because I never participated in any of those meetings.\nQ.That is just what he was asking you about?\nDR. BERGOLD:Your Honors, I am always talking about the G L meetings.\nJUDGE PHILLIPS:That is right. It is the GL meeting. And the defendant went upon the stand and testified that he initialed the cover of that report himself; and that he presided over the meeting. Now you tell the Tribunal that that is not an official document.\nTHE WITNESS:The report was official but what went out was, I described as only executive records, amounting to three to five pages. And the signature at the bottom, that of the Field Marshal, and then followed my initials.\nBY JUDGE PHILLIPS:\nQ.Well, do you know why the defendant will initial a record and keep it in his own file, if it was not true?\nA.You initial a lot of documents which come to our desk in spite of which they don't go on anywhere.\nQ.In other words, it didn't amount to anything, and kept it because it was nothing?\nA.Yes.\nQ.All right.\nBY DR. BERGOLD:\nQ.Witness, please have a look at this Protocol. On the title page you see M I. Does this mean that this record was now going to be published?", "speakers": [ "THE WITNESS", "Q.", "JUDGE PHILLIPS", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2879, "page_number": "", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "A.No; the Field Marshal had initialed it. That means he actually read the record. But this record in the form in which I have it here, in this particular shape, has never been sent to any department outside our own building. Only those minutes went out I mentioned and which I have referred to as executive records.\n2298 a", "speakers": [ "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2880, "page_number": "2299", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "Q.Witness, does this \"Mi\" mean that he actually read it?\nA.No, just what the action taken in connection with this steonographic record was; and the answer of the Field Marshal, that is something I wouldn't tell you. But possibly he wrote a lot of \"Mi's\" on a lot of things; and that doesn't mean that he necessarily read them. It merely meant that Mr. Richter, Ministerial Counsellor Richter, could put them into the files.\nDR. BERGOLD:Now, your Honors, I draw your attention to the testimony given by the defendant himself to the effect that he only put \"Mi\" on the document so that it would be put in the files but that he did not read it. Now, what we are really concerned with here is this.\nQ.Witness, in these verbatim records, supposed executive orders, such as orders to Gablenz and Reinecke, are supposed to be contained. Everything that was being talked about, would that have been taken into the executive records you have talked about?\nA.No.\nQ.Was it only those that went into the executive orders?\nA.What went into the executive records were those things which were to take effect on the outside, not any of the other things; and I believe that to this matter, this Gablenz affair where these Frenchmen talked to Reinecke, was such that General von Gablenz, either the same day or the following day, went to see the Field Marshal because they knew each other from the old days of the Lufthansa; and probably he talked him out of the whole business. I can't really imagine since I never received a report of the type which was demanded from Gablenz, not did I include any such report in the program.\nQ.Witness, final orders were only those that went into the executive protocol?\nA.Yes.\nTHE PRESIDENT:May I ask a question?\nEXAMINATION BY THE PRESIDENT:\nQ.Richter corrected the original transcript by boiling it down and eliminating the things that were of no value?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2881, "page_number": "2300", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "No, that wasn't Richter. Richter was the file clerk for those stenographic records. That is, the shorthand report as it is available here must have gone to the technician of my department, the engineer of my department , who, according to this verbatim record, then drafted the executive protocol. That is the short one; and it is a short one. The short one went to all departments which had to be informed; and they checked it; and then eventually at the end, it came before me so that in all cases before putting it before the Field Marshal for signature, I would read it and initial it.\nQWell, neither you nor the engineer nor Richter over put anything into the official record that hadn't actually happened, did you?\nARichter? No, I don't believe so. He didn't add anything, no.\nQDid you add anything?\nANo, no.\nQDid the engineer over add anything? I mean did he put words into the document that had not been spoken?\nANo. This verbatim record had nothing added to it. It was according to the wording of that record that the short record was prepared. It wasn't in the form of a meeting with talk and counter-talk; it merely consisted of instructions, you see, it was an extract, so to speak.\nDR. BERGOLD:Your Honors, from these verbatim records the actual orders were extracted; and they were then put into a special verbatim record; and it would therefore be essential for the prosecution, if they want to prove that these statements on the part of the Field Marshal went out as orders, to show the executive record containing such orders.", "speakers": [ "A", "DR. BERGOLD", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2882, "page_number": "", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "It would only then be possible that it actually happened in fact.\nTHE PRESIDENT:I'm talking about his having said these things; not that he issued the orders that he threatened to issue but whether he actually said then; and I think there's no dispute about that, even by the defendant, is there?\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes; particularly in the case of this Reinecke protocol, you can see that the sense in itself is incomprehensible because it says at 2300 a the end", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2883, "page_number": "2301", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "QWitness, do you mind reading it?\nA \"I should like Dietrich that dispatch to punitive camp should be taken into consideration. Yes, that hardly makes sense; not quite clear. I am therefore not agreeable. You ought to make a different suggestion. Initial period, of course, can't bring anymore.\"\nDR. BERGOLD:Your Honors, if you read this entire speech of Milch ligically and examine it logically, you've got to come to the realization that it is incomprehensible because he says at the beginning, \"I want action.\" And he says, \"There people ought to be shot\"; and at the end he says, \"I am not agreeable.\"\nTHE PRESIDENT:Do you think the garbled ideas are Milch's or the court reporter's or the stenographer's?\nDR. BERGOLD:I think Milch is right. Your Honors, unfortunately this has not been discussed in this trial; but I have examined the records of this trial. I have made innumerable applications to the Secretary General's office. There is the most fantastic nonsense contained in the records of this very Tribunal. I haven't been able to check them all because that would be the work of a giant. But mistake after mistake occurs in the records of this very Tribunal here every day. I have been thinking of the few which I have examined where mistake follows mistake and completely distorting mistakes are apparent.\nHere we are speaking slowly. Only one person is speaking at a time. There arc two court reporters; four court reporters. Whilst there those people were talking crosswise and they weren't being considerate. If somebody was talking and yelling - while here Field Marshal Milch is speaking slowly - everything burst out like a waterfall.", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2884, "page_number": "", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "I am convinced that those verbatim records have no probative value because certainly they have not been taken down in their exact meaning.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Well, I'm trying to find out just what you do contend. Do you say that he didn't make these remarks or that he didn't mean them and never carried them out?\n2301 a", "speakers": [ "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2885, "page_number": "2302", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "DR. BERGOLD:Your Honors, I allege this first of all. I deny that the wording was that which appears in these verbatim minutes; but even if it were correct, he would not have meant it. Thirdly, I allege that he certainly didn't execute them.\nTHE PRESIDENT:I think that's covering a good deal of ground. First he didn't say it -- Now, wait a minute, I'm taking your version of it now. First, he didn't say it. Second, he didn't mean what he said. Third, he didn't do what he said he meant.\nDR. BERGOLD:No, I didn't say that, your Honor. Here again, you see, there's an erroneous translation. What I said was this. I believe that the verbatim records do not fully and correctly represent the truth and that it contains mistakes. If, however, they have been taken down correctly, which, of course, naturally must have happened on some occasions, then he didn't mean them the way it states; and they weren't executed. That's what I want to say.\nTHE PRESIDENT:I think that's just what I said; but we'll drop it.\nBY DR. BERGOLD:\nQWitness, I am now turning to the GL meeting on July the 7th, NOKW-406, Exhibit 138. There it states\"that to the achievement of Prague. I would like to say that of course it must be recognized at some stage that a foreigner can attain good output in his factory work; but in the case of the French something will be done. Gablenz, call Toennes on the phone and tell him that this is a pigsty of the worst order. But first of all we've got to try through Toennes to put the matter right. If it is not successful, then I propose that the now Heinkel Works in the East be fully staffed with Frenchmen, who will be forced to come over. If they don't work in France, well, they can work as prisoners in Poland.\"\nNow, my first question. Who was Toennes?\nAI know a Chief Engineer Toennes who later worked at Hamm. He was a member of the liaison office of the GL in Paris. But that didn't come under me. That came under Gablenz. That's the Planning Office. Otherwise I couldn't imagine who this man could be.", "speakers": [ "A", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2886, "page_number": "2303", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "QWitness, what do you know about the Heinkel Works in the East -when it was constructed and when it was completed?\nAThe Heinkel Works in the East was never completed.Afew machines were erected. Their tooling machines and a part of the staff began to work there. There were a few engineers, I think, but this is in the territory which was continuously being upset by partisan activities. Later on because of the advance of the Russian front, it had to be abandoned. The machines were sent back; and it was never completed. But I know the plans. That's enough.\nQWitness, in July 1942 did anyone work there?\nANo, that's out of the question.\nQWhen was there any work done for the first time, approximately?\nAWell, in 1942 the plan for the construction of the works there was only just conceived by Heinkel; and the reason why the plan was conceived was because the Heinkel Works at Oranienburg and at Warmomuende had been attacked. So that it can only have been around about the middle of 1942 that the idea was conceived to construct the works in the East. That alone shows that you can't create a work like that by clapping your hands on foreign territory and it shows that the plant wasn't completed. At any rate around about that time there wasn't a single brick in its place.\nQWell; it is correct that it was only in 1943 that some people worked there?\nAYes, I can remember that the director of the Heinkel Works spoke about it and that he had considerable qualms regarding the continuous partisan activities in that territory. The plant, like a hedgehog position, had to defend itself.\nQThat is enough; thank you. Witness, if Milch in 1942 said, \"I am going to send these people to the Heinkel Works in the East,\" did the possibility exist at all at the time for this?\nANo, not at all.\nQWell, then was this in your opinion a serious plan or not?", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2887, "page_number": "2304", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "AWell, I think this was an expression such as they would call out in the heat of battle and on the basis of anger and rage.\nQWitness, I now turn toNOKW-408, Exhibit 139. There Milch is once again talking about Frenchmen; and he is saying that the proportion between French and German aircraft wasn't one to five but approximately five to one. Then he says, \"I am going to shut the shop; and I'm going to have workers, and machines taking the work; and if it isn't done on a voluntary basis, I'm going to force them. Maybe I'll give them a week to think it over.\" Did any corresponding action occur?\nANo. I said the other day that to the contrary after these initial difficulties in France, production was running rather smoothly. I described the good relationship between private industry and the defendant and described it by saying that the liaison in one works in France paid a visit to the Field Marshal in Berlin to discuss the program with him.\nQThat's enough.\nABut at the beginning there were difficulties; and they had to be overcome. The reason was that the French tool machines.\nQThat's enough -- didn't fit outs.\nAThat's definitely enough.\nQWitness, in the same program Milch is speaking about Friedrichshafe; and he says: \"I told Admiral Laas that he should have those come up from Friedrichshafe as soon as the first complaints were received. I'm going to have these two gentlemen, Schneider and Burger, put into concentration camps for the duration as soon as they become obstructionable; and Dr. Dornier, too, is partly responsible for this.\"\nFirst of all, who were Schneider and Berger?\nAThese were two engineers from the Dornier Works. I don't know them personally; but the names are familiar to me from various meetings which Dr. Dornier attended.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2888, "page_number": "2305", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "QDid Milch take any action against these two gentlemen?\nANo, we got along with them very nicely, afterwards. It is another spontaneous statement, and I can only say again and again that we had worries, a hell of a lot of worries even at that time. You can understand from the atmosphere at the time, when he read these words, that the Field Marshal, together with myself and my collaborators were making efforts that the air armament should be a defensive armament program, and for the reason which I gave the other day, he did not succeed in doing so in view to the resistance put up by the General Staff, Goering, and eventually Hitler, to those whose reasons for desire of his to protect Germany against the attacks of the four-engine bombers of the British and Americans was not realized. These attacks resulted in increasing devastation, particularly of our air armament plants, and it was getting more and more difficult from day to day, until finally one could explode after that happened.\nQWitness, would ha have had to put these two men before a special court martial, or give special treatment,if he wanted to? He could have done it?\nAHe could have done it.\nQDid he do it?\nANo, they did not.\nQDid he start proceedings against them?\nANo, he did not. This court only dealt with cases of corruption.\nQThank you.\nAI myself was once interrogated for that.\nQThank you. In the Exhibit No. 140, dated 4 August 1942, NOKW 409, there is talk of Frenchmen once more, He said, \"I will request therefore, to be nominated as military commander, and then I'd get the group together, and I would have fifty percent of them shot, if this continues. As to the remaining 50%, I would beat them until they worked, if necessary, and if they did work I would have them shot as well, so on and so forth.\" Did he take any action on that?", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2889, "page_number": "2306", "date": "20 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-20", "text": "ANo action was taken, and consequently he could not have taken any action there primarily, and it was one of his routine matters, and part of which routine we used to go through the orders of the day.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Will you have considerably more examination?\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes, I have more.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Then we will recess until tomorrow morning.\nTHE MARSHAL:The Tribunal is in recess until 0930 hours tomorrow morning.\n(The Tribunal adjourned until 21 March 1947 at 0930 hours.)", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "A", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2890, "page_number": "2307", "date": "21 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-21", "text": "Official transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the Matter of the United States of America against Erhard Milch, defendant, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 21 March 1947, 0930-1700, Justice Toms presiding.\nTHE MARSHALL:Military Tribunal No. 2 is in session.\nGod save the United States of America and this honorable Tribunal. There will be order in the court.\nMR. BERGOLD:Your honors, to begin with I would like to make a request for permission that ay secretary may collect two exhibits of the Central Planning Board from Lt. Garrett - such as we had here a few days ago. With the aid of these two copies I can prove to the court the difference between the verbatim record and the resulting executive record.\nTHE PRESIDENT:My switch was turned when you started -- you want your secretary to bring ...\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes, that she should go to Lt. Garrett's office to have two such booklets brought here, such as were lying here two days ago, if I have the permission of the Tribunal to do so.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The Tribunal is agreeable if she can arrange it with the Defense Information Center. The Tribunal is willing.\nDR. BERGOLD:Thank you very much.\nWOLFGANG VORWALD -- Resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION - (Continued) BY DR. BERGOLD:\nQ.Witness, I am coming to Exhibit 141,NOKW 412, dealing with a meeting dated 18 August 1941. Milch in this meeting deals with fluctuals and shirkers and mentions that one should discuss with Sauckel and Speer what action was to be taken with these people, and whether they should be sent into the camps administered by the SS. I have already asked you several times whether anything was actually done against these shirkers. I would like to ask you with reference to that --did anything happen?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "THE MARSHALL", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "MR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2891, "page_number": "2308", "date": "21 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-21", "text": "A.No. Nothing could be done -- I didn't quite get the date.\nQ. 1942.\nA. 18 August 1942, because in 1941 I was not yet in my office.\nQ.Witness, can you tell me why again and again this question of shirkers was being touched upon and why, apparently, an order is issued repeatedly that it should be dealt with, why there are repeated inquiries coming from the defendant?\nA.Just like the Field Marshal and every one else, I was angry about these shirkers because these shirkers were people who were loafers. They were Germans who didn't want to work and they would go from one working place to the other, enjoy all the advantages, and would not carry out their work properly. And the mass -- the bulk of the German workers were working sincerely at their work --whereas these people were shirkers from their work and sometimes I felt very angry about these people.\nQ.Witness, why was it that the subject came up for discussion again and again, that the defendant repeatedly went to the central camp, that this should be done?\nA.Well, that is the best sign -- that nothing was actually done against it.\nQ.Witness, I shall now turn toNOKW 416, Exhibit 142. It is a GL conference on 26 August 1942. Witness, on that day there was supposed to be the funeral of von Gablenz and two of his pilots. Was there on that day of Gablenz's funeral a GL meeting at all?\nA.No. The funeral service for General von Gablenz and his two co-pilots in my opinion took place already at either eleven or twelve a.m. so it would not have been worth it to hold a meeting; there wasn't one on that particular day.\nQ.Witness, assuming that the date of this meeting, presented in the Tribunal's report, is wrong. I should now like to discuss its contents with you. Here, too, the question of shirkers is once again discussed and a Mr. Brueckner stales that he knew that such labor camps had been established, upon which the defendant, Milch, said -- at the next conference I want to hear from you in detail as to where they have been established, who is taking care of them, and how we can transfer these honorable gentlemen who don't want to work, to these camps.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2892, "page_number": "2309", "date": "21 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-21", "text": "Witness, did Brueckner make such a report at any time?\nA.No, I cannot remember one; that, too, would have had to go through my record department and my program department because they always compiled the program for these meetings. Brueckner made no report on that matter during any meeting.\nQ.I shall now come to Exhibit 144,NOKW 286. Here we are concerned with a, conference of the 9th of September 1942, and I should like to first of all talk to you about it and then put it before you. Witness, it was during that conference that a certain Mr. Deutschmann elaborated on the fact that in front line repair shops people were deserting and Milch then said that they should have their bottoms slapped by the Russians and that they ought to get into contact with the SD, and that it would be better to slap them rather than give them anything to do -and goes on to say, \"we have already drawn the attention of the Reichsfuehrer-SS to this.\" Who was this Mr. Deutschmann?\nA.Deutschmann worked in my office. He was the man responsible for the air torpedoes and similar matters. He had nothing whenever to do with frontal repair shops and he should not have spoken about this either.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2893, "page_number": "2310", "date": "21 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-21", "text": "A.It is quite incomprehensible to me. He was a group chief in the Department B-7, That is the purchasing department 7 and the group which had dealt with the obtaining of aerial torpedoes.\nQ.Did you ever hear at any time that this was discussed, namely, that Milch had given orders that the SD should be informed that Poles ought to be beaten?\nA.No, nor can I remember exactly this particular meeting of the 9th of September during which this Deutschmann is supposed to have talked about a frontal repair shop.\nDR. BERGOLD:Your Honors, let me remind you that the defendant Milch has testified that on the 9th of September a meeting hadn't taken place at all.\nQ.Witness, I shall now put to you the minutes; and I should like you to look at the first page. Is the initial, the \"M.A.\", in the handwriting of the defendant, in your opinion?\nA.No, it doesn't really look like it.\nQ.Will you please turn to the following page where there is a list of participants? Does that list of participants contain the name Deutschmann at all?\nA.No.\nQ.Then will you please give it back to me?\nA.My name, I can see, is not contained there either.\nQ.Thank you. Then will you let me have it back, please?\nDR. BERGOLD:Your Honors, I wish then to state that the defendant has said that there was no meeting on the 9th of September; and the witness doesn't know either that there was one. Deutschmann had nothing to do with frontal repair shops; and according to the opinion of the witness the initials in the defendant's handwriting -- I don't know whether we cannot consider them a forgery which has been manufactured somewhere.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Dr. Bergold, is it your contention then that this is a pure fabrication just made up out of whole cloth; that there never was any meeting; and that Milch didn't say this or anything else?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2894, "page_number": "2311", "date": "21 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-21", "text": "DR. BERGOLD:No, no, only with reference to this one of the 9th of September.\nTHE PRESIDENT:That's what I mean, too. Is it your contention that this -\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes, that this is a forgery.\nTHEPRESIDENT: --That no such meeting was ever held?\nDR. BERGOLD:It didn't take place, no. Deutschmann had nothing to do with this natter at all at any time.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Neither Deutschmann nor Milch were there?\nDR. BERGOLD:Neither was present, that's right.\nTHE PRESIDENT:And Milch didn't say this or anything else?\nDR. BERGOLD:He didn't say it, no.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Somebody just sat down and imagine this whole transaction?\nDR. BERGOLD:That, your Honors, I don't know either, who forged it; but at any rate even the reference number at the top, ZMA, is not the defendant's, so the witness just testified. There is a similarity; but it is not accurate nor the same; and the well-known \"Mi\" isn't there either.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Well, whom do you suspect?\nDR. BERGOLD:I cannot say who may have done this. It is not my habit to invent matters like that. I am merely stating that this individual record is not authentic. We are not particularly worried about one individual meeting, your Honors; but what I do consider is that what was in my hands here is not authentic, not genuine.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Well, there's a good deal of difference between saying that there are typographical mistakes in a report and saying that a whole report is completely imaginary and is manufactured; and that's your contention about this one, is it not?\nDR. BERGOLD:Your Honors, it is my opinion that such mistakes, namely, that Milch was supposed to have been present, and that Deutschmann was supposed to have been talking about that subject at all, and that a meeting was supposed to have taken place on a day when there was no meeting, as well as that there is an initial on this which does not originate from the defendant, it is my view that these all can't simply have been errors.", "speakers": [ "THE", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2895, "page_number": "2312", "date": "21 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-21", "text": "But here I come to the conclusion--and of course it is merely my opinion--that here we are concerned with some sort of falsification, by whom, of course, is unknown to me.\nTHETRIBUNAL (JUDGE MUSMANNO): What date do you have there, Dr. Bergold?\nDR.BERGOLD: 9th of September 1942. This is only the one conference of the 9th of September I'm referring to.\nTHETRIBUNAL (JUDGE MUSMANNO): This says September 3rd, not September 9th.\nDR. BERGOLD:That's the photostatic copy. My client just tells me that on the 3rd of September there was not a GL meeting either.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Mr. Denney, the copy of this exhibit which we have indicates that the meeting was held on September 3.\nMR DENNEY:There may be an error in the typing, your Honor. These papers that we have here are all from the same file that were photostated in the British Air Ministry in London; and they are in the same position as they were when they were captured.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Now, which date was the defendant questioned about? The 9th or the 3rd?\nMR. DENNEY:I don't recall, your Honor.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Judge Phillips says he was questioned about the 9th.\nMR. DENNEY:I can check in the record. I believe I asked him if \"ZMA\" here were his initials; and he said they could be; they didn't look like them, but they could be.\nTHETRIBUNAL (JUDGE PHILLIPS): His answer, which I wrote down, was, \"It looks like my writing; but I am not sure.\"\nTHE PRESIDENT:Well, Dr. Bergold, he referred to his diary and said that he was elsewhere on a certain date. Now, was that the 9th or the 3rd?", "speakers": [ "DR.", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE", "THE PRESIDENT", "MR. DENNEY", "MR DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2896, "page_number": "2313", "date": "21 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-21", "text": "MR. DENNEY:Of course, we don't admit that. He never has offered his diary in evidence. He's just using it to refresh his recollection.\nDR. BERGOLD:Your Honors, now I shall either have to put the defendant quickly on the witness-stand or I could make a statement to you. Anyway, he wasn't in Berlin on the 9th, nor was ho in Berlin on the 3rd of September either.\nTHE PRESIDENT:He is prepared to testify to that?\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes, he is prepared to testify.\nMR. DENNEY:If your Honor please, he was questioned about this document with reference to the 9th; and I said: \"I will hand you the cover page which precedes this particular note; and look at the top there and see if you didn't put in your hand, 'ZMA' on it.\" Then he answered: \"My name is not on there.\" I said, \"Your name, no, but isn't that in your handwriting? Isn't that the same 'ZMA' that appears in all these other notes?\" He then said: \"It could be, yes.\" However, he is not quite sure.\nDR. BERGOLD:And hero this witness now testifies that ho docs not consider it to be the defendant's handwriting. In the case of all these many documents, one doesn't matter that much, your Honors; but I am being sure that these documents can be objected to. They are not without fault.", "speakers": [ "THE PRESIDENT", "DR. BERGOLD", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2897, "page_number": "2314", "date": "21 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-21", "text": "DR. BERGOLD:Your Honor, I shall now come back once more to the question which was under discussion yesterday: that is, the difference between verbatim record or minutes, and the so-called resulting records because both were taken down, the verbatim record naturally having been taken down by the stenographer; and following that the executive records were prepared, and that one which only and alone contained the verbatim and official resolution. The difference is not that one is not an official record; the difference is that wherein the written record and those matters which are contained therein were the actual results which were to be regarded as instructions or orders, since during such meeting there was a lot of cross talking going on. One did not talk according to plan, and any one word which was used, one did not want to be tied down to. It is a better conviction for that reason that the verbatim record be prepared, this record giving it alone; and I shall now like to show you the difference of the meeting of the Central Planning Board. Unfortunately, we don't have the final record of the GL meeting, and I shall have to make an application for this later. The results of the 20th meeting of the Central Planning Board went back to the first meeting therein contained. I have chosen the 15th conference, and there we have the verbatim record of the 15th meeting, and you can see that here on these points are the results of what was discussed, and what became valid, and no names are mentioned, whether here in the verbatim record, and of the individual who made those speeches that were listed of where resolutions were passed which are on the resulting records. This is the official contents of the meeting, even if it is an official verbatim record. The official resolution and the official contents of the meeting arc only considered as only such, and I therefore want to ask the witness whether, in the case of a GL meeting only those matters were taken down in the resulting record which were no doubt the final and official resolutions on the subject. That was the object of that.", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2898, "page_number": "2315", "date": "21 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-21", "text": "THE PRESIDENT:I think we understand just what you mean, Dr. Bergold, and it is quite usual for an official record of any meeting to be condensed, and to contain all of the conversations and comments that go on at that meeting. We are quite accustomed to that same thing.\nDR BERGOLD:Yes, and Your Honor I am here to make an application to the effect that I had not the possibility to get that kind of record. If these records have been captured, then the final record, or resulting record must also be available, and they contain the official resolution which went out, and they would contain the actual action taken, and, in the name of justice I now beg this Tribunal to instruct the Prosecution with reference to the meetings which verbatim have been submitted to you, the resulting final record not being submitted, because it must be just as available as the verbatim records are. You can not think of them now in any other way, because tho words that are stated there, and because of the action, that you can judge upon him. In the final report we have the action of the defendant, and what the defendant says, and the final record as given in such order.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Your point is that no matter what the defendant said, that no action resulted?\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes, that is right.\nTHE PRESIDENT:You are not attacking tho record of what he said, but only that he may have done or not done officially.\nDR. BERGOLD:Your Honor, I am attacking the record that he did not carry out what he said, that it is not even certain that he said all of that.\nCertainly he said a lot of nasty things, and he is not denying that, and whether it was said exactly like that in every individual case, that is not definite either. We have no course other than of certain facts of all he did and had not done, I am not denying that, nor is Mr. Milch denying it.", "speakers": [ "DR BERGOLD", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2899, "page_number": "", "date": "21 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-21", "text": "THE PRESIDENT:It is your contention it was a false alarm, and he let it go, and then he stopped.\nDR BERGOLD:Yes, he barked then he stopped.\n2315A BY DR. BERGOLD:", "speakers": [ "DR BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2900, "page_number": "2316", "date": "21 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-21", "text": "QWitness, I shall now turn to Exhibit No. 146, NOKW No. 288. I refer to where the concentration comp detainees are being mentioned, and 500 concentration camp detainees who were compiled in a list by certain Herr Petersen. Witness how can you explain that \"concentration camp prisoners\" being compiled by Mr. Petersen? Was that correct?\nANo, not by Mr. Petersen. That was an office which was in charge of concentration camp prisoners. Then when they finally came with a list of five-hundred people who would have been suitable for the work which was demanded there.\nQJust a moment. It is not correct to say that Petersen was the commanding officer there?\nA.Yes, that is right, he was the commander of all provost marshall provinces.\nQWitness, is it not known to you that the concentration camp inmates were working on construction at Rechlin, at the construction of an airport?\nAYes.\nQCould you say by that for special reasons, for on experimental station, Petersen had chosen experts for the experimental list of these people?\nANo, that is out of the question, no concentration camp inmates were taken for such purposes. These were secret matters, and the experiments were very secret indeed, only especially elected persons known were used.\nQNow I come to another passage. In that former exhibit of a meeting dated 19 October, I have a record which I would like to read to you in its entirety: starting with --\"Von der Heyde: You are here concerned with the valuation list of the industrial enterprises which are classified into security ratings,\" Then -- I beg your pardon. I am afraid I talked about this already yesterday. No, I talked to the defendant about it.", "speakers": [ "A", "A.", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2901, "page_number": "", "date": "21 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-21", "text": "I am getting old. \"It concerned the valuation list of the industrial enterprises which are classified into security ratings 1, 2, and 3, thus deciding whether they should have anti-aircraft protection or not.\" What was his concern in this matter, witness?\n2316A", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2902, "page_number": "2317", "date": "21 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-21", "text": "AThese were instructions which came from the OKW stating that there exists some disorder in the plant, and that their priority should correspond with the type of the laborers, and that such laborers be checked, to make sure that the anti-aircraft protection proscribed will be provided in such a way as to give due priority to the most important work.\nQNow let's continue. \"I don't want to turn it down, but the man,\" that is Milch speaking, \"I don't want to turn it down, but the man who submitted it is not a clover man. What these people want to do is certainly the following. The other day I talked to Himmler about it, and I told him that his main concern should be to provide protection to German industry in case of internal uprisings of the foreign workers.\"\nANo, not at all, it docs not make sense.\nQJust a minute, then it goes on and says: \"I said, that, in consideration thereof a well established method I hope should exist, and I have already given orders to the chief of AW and to the experimental stations to the effect that military training must be provided in this field.\"\nAThe Chief of theAW is the Chief of the training station, the entire training program of the pilots was under his control, and the experimental stations are those which came under the jurisdiction of my office; they came under the KDE.\nQDo you understand what these departments were to claim themselves with regard to the internal disquiet of the foreigners?\nAThe chief of the training system had everything to do with it, but in this country, well, that does not make sense at all.\nQContinuing: Then for instance in the locality \"X\" an uprising occurs a sergeant with a few men, or a lieutenant with 30 men arrives at the plant, and first of all fires into the crowd with his automatic gun with the intention of killing as many as possible.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2903, "page_number": "", "date": "21 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-21", "text": "This is the substance of the orders given even though our own foreign workers wore involved. Witness, did Milch, at any time give orders that in case of an uprising an officer should start fire into a crowd, or to take part in the matter.\n2317A", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2904, "page_number": "2318", "date": "21 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-21", "text": "AHe had nothing to do with this matter, and as I recall it uprisings were dealt with by the police.\nQThen continuing: \"But first of all he must succeed in laying them out flat on the ground, and then every tenth man is to be singled out and shot, while the others are lined up to watch it. If our machines and installations are being wrecked, then such measures will have to be adopted. I have told Himmler, I'll go along with you and he said, 'I want to know where the most important production plants are located.'\" Now at the beginning it said, \"The other day I talked with Himmler, and I told him that it would have to be up to you to take care of suck production, and now it said, I have told him I'll accompany you, \"and then it goes on and says, \"I can not know exactly whether that is what they want, but I presume that is meant by it. Why should they oppose that? He would get that information from Spoor anyhow. In reality, what does that have to do with aircraft production and I don't understand it at all, really I don't know what to do. It does not make sense to me.\" Witness, in the German language does this make logical sense?\nA.No, something must be missing, or there is something which does not belong there.\nQAt any rate, in the beginning it says that the plants needed anti-aircraft protection?\nAYes, that was a matter for which I am not competent. I know from our department--or from our main department that he had to cooperate in compiling this list which was completed in the Central Planning Office, but my advice with regard to the several plants was that he could not estimate the priority to be given as accurately as I could.", "speakers": [ "A", "A.", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2905, "page_number": "2319", "date": "21 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-21", "text": "THE PRESIDENT:This is not so mysterious to me as it appears to be to you. The plants were threatened with uprisings among the foreign workers, which has nothing to do with plant protection. It is noted he voices some fear that there will be a riot or uprising among the foreign workers, and he proposes that if such uprising occurs he will appeal to Himmler, who commanded the SS, to put down the uprising in the manner indicated. What is mysterious about that?\nDR. BERGOLD:No reasons why it should be mysterious, Mr. President, but nevertheless it is so because it does not make sense. It comes from Von der Heyde's statement regarding the anti-aircraft protection, and secondly, \"I do not want to turn this matter down, but the man who submitted it is not a clover man. What these people want to do is certainly the following. The other day I talked to Himmler about it, and I told him that his main concern should be to see to it that protection is provided for the plants.\" Let's talk about the anti-aircraft protection. He said, \"I don't want to turn this down,\" the anti-aircraft protection for machines. \"But the man who submitted it is not a clover man,\" and, \"You certainly ought to do this,\" and that he wanted to do that and he wanted antiaircraft protection, but he does not want uprisings - - that is not sensible, that is not logical. The theory is originally clear. But you are either an expert on anti-aircraft protection, or else you cannot hit anything, and he does not want to turn it down.", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2906, "page_number": "2320", "date": "21 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-21", "text": "AWell, I don't get it at all. Quite frankly, I don't know what it is. This does not make sense to me.\nQWitness, in the German does this make logical sense?\nANo. Something must be missing, or something was added which doesn't belong there.\nQAt any rate, the beginning words of von der Heyde deal only with aircraft protection?\nAYes, that was a matter with which I am most conversant. I know my own department had to cooperate in compiling this list. It was completed by General von der Heyde's planning office, but he needed my advice in regard to several plants because he could not judge priority as accurately as I could.\nTHE PRESIDENT:This is not so mysterious to me as it appears to be to you. The plants were threatened with uprisings among the foreign workers. It hasn't anything to do with plant protection. Milch voices some fear that there will be riots or uprisings among the foreign workers, and he proposes that if such uprisings occur, he will appeal to Himmler, who commanded the SS, to put down the uprisings in the manner indicated. What is mysterious about that?\nDR. BERGOLD:No. The reason why this is so mysterious, Mr. President, is that it does not make sense. It starts with von der Heyde's statement regarding anti-aircraft protection. Milch says, \"I don't want to turn this matter down. The man who submitted this is not clover.\" No wants to say they don't want antiaircraft protection but protection against uprisings. That is not sensible. That is not logical. The first is so abundantly clear to every expert that he could not hit upon the idea of saying, \"I don't want to turn it down. These people obviously want to do this and that.\" It does not have any internal connection or logic. It is bound to be wrong. At the end he says, \"I can't know for certain whether this is it, but I assume that we are concerned with the matter.\"", "speakers": [ "A", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2907, "page_number": "", "date": "21 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-21", "text": "All of this is not logically connected. According to the laws of logic, it does not make sense. Somehow this had been inserted somewhere else. Some one else may at that moment have said 2320-A something, but whether this comes from Milch or from whom this passage does originate and who has interpolated it at this point -that is something one cannot say.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2908, "page_number": "2321", "date": "21 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-21", "text": "Your honors, you can sentence a man on the basis of written statements only if these written statements are clear in themselves, This passage in its present form cannot have been said, because it is full of contradictions. There are two separate portions. One is uprisings, and one is anti-aircraft protection. Somehow they became mixed up but it is impossible to say who disarranged these parts. Originally, it started with antiaircraft protection, and then it deals with something quite different. You have heard from tie witnesses that 30 people were there and that the stenographer quite often could not see who had been talking.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Is there anything strange in Milch changing the subject? Is there anything strange that he talked about two different things?\nDR. BERGOLD:No, but the reason why this is peculiar is that the introductory words in German -- According to German linguistic habits, you cannot change the subject like that. Every language has laws which you can break only if you are an imbecile or if you are exceptionally stupid, and if this man says, \"I don't want to turn it down -- the anti-aircraft protection -The man who has put it before us is not clover. These people certainly want to do the following.\" These are the people who suggested anti-airraid precautions, and something has to follow which deals with air raid precautions, but what does follow is, \"I talked to Himmler about it the other day.\" That is so madly stupid in the German language that it does not make sense at all.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Well, at the risk of being stupid in the English language, I should like to change the subject too and ask the witness what he understands by the word \"Betekuden\".A. \"Betekuden\", that was an expression which was used for some motley crowd of people.", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2909, "page_number": "", "date": "21 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-21", "text": "THE PRESIDENT:It does not mean \"negroes\", does it?\nA.No, no.\n2321-A Dr. Bergold:", "speakers": [ "A.", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2910, "page_number": "", "date": "21 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-21", "text": "Originally, your Honor, it was a negro tribe.\nTHE PRESIDENT: There were no negroes working for the Germans, were there?\nDR: Bergold: No. A mothley crowd of people.\nTHE PRESIDENT: A mob.\nDR. Bergold: In the case of soldiers, when new recruits loafed about and were standing around stupidly, an officer would come up and yell at them, \"You're standing around like Botekunden.\". It is a German military expression.\nBY DR. Bergold: Q. Witness, in a meeting of 18 January 1944 which has the same NoKW and Exhibit Number, there is talk about fluctuations once again and also about the fact that people were being lost throught this. Then Milich states, \"Then you, Verwald, have to exert pressure, and likewise the KDE has the same principle that this has, that must not happen again. There is still enough work left which has to be done, and I would be thankful if Department VI would support me as well.\". Does this mean that you had to restrict work if these workers were missing.\nA.This is incomprehensible to me. May I read It?\nQ.Yes, certainly.\nA.Yes, now I understand. I had to read it first. Now It becomes clear. It deals with the entire system of changes. The changes in our case played an important part. Changes aggravated the manufacturing process in industry immensely, since tools and moving bolts were subject to continuous changes which made even production of aircraft and equipment impossible. This is the origin of the expression, \"Then you should exert pressure and say that this or that may no longer be done, meaning that these changes demanded by the General Staff or the troops through the General Staff must cease so that production could continue.\n*2322* smoothly.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2911, "page_number": "", "date": "21 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-21", "text": "That is what it means.\nQ.Witness, now I have a different question. In a GL meeting dated 25 January 2322-A 1944, contained in the same document, there is talk of Czechoslovakian workers.", "speakers": [ "Q." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2912, "page_number": "2323", "date": "21 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-21", "text": "Are you up to date on that matter?\nACzechoslovakian workers? Yes. You mean work carried out in the Protectorate?\nQNo, work done by Czechs in the Reich. They were to have a training period and I think they mean young workers meant for labor service. Well, of course, if you don't know anything about it, you don't need to answer.\nWitness, I turn to Exhibit 147,NOKW 347. There Milch testifies with regard to Italian workers, and he says: \"If accommodation of these people is not easy -- and I have seen how it was done in the East -- they were put into the factory and they will stay there until barracks have been erected. They can sleep next to their machines.\"\nIs it known to you that anywhere in Germany German workers too slept next to their machines in the factories when their homes had been destroyed?\nAYes, it happened several times, particularly in times of frequent attacks. Then it happened that people just stayed in the plant and slept there.\nQWitness, I tun toNOKW 449, Exhibit 148, a meeting dated 2 March 1943. There Milch got excited about the fact that Poles or Frenchmen told people in factories, \"Today you still find yourself in this plant, but later we'll be the owners, and if you treat us decently now, then we shall see to it later that you'll be shot dead right away, without being tortured first.\" Milch obviously got excited about this. Do you know about this matter?\nAYes, I have heard it said reportedly that such statements had been made in various plants.\nQDid Milch ever get terribly excited about it?", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2913, "page_number": "", "date": "21 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-21", "text": "AAbout the statement? Yes, certainly.\nQNow, he says that he will see to it that only two types of punishment will be awarded for such statements, firstly, concentration camp, 2323-A and secondly, the death penalty, and if a certain number of such people have been liquidated and the others have been informed of this, then the others will work better once more.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2914, "page_number": "2324", "date": "21 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-21", "text": "Apart from that, he says the best procedure would be to hit a man who says a thing like that over the head with a mallet. Did he give any orders in that respect?\nA.No.\nQ.Did subordinates do it for him? Did they give such orders?\nA.No, they could not have done it.\nQ.Then he is speaking of sabotage acts, and he says, \"If there is a case of sabotage in a locality then every tenth person from that locality will be shot, and then the sabotage will cease.\" You know the resulting orders that went out. Did any such order ever go out?\nA.No, it could not have gone out, because we were not the authority to issue such order. These people were not under our jurisdiction, something which I have frequently told you about.\nQ.Did you never hear that during a meeting of the GL an 30 November 1943,NOKW 414, Exhibit No. 149, Milch pleaded to the effect that Italians who were not working should be starved to death in Italy?\nA.No.\nJUDGE PHILLIPS:Dr. Bergold, did this witness attend all these meetings?\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes.\nJUDGE PHILLIPS:There is no evidence that he did, and what he knows about these meetings would largely depend on whether or not he was there. I have not heard any evidence that he attended all these meetings.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "JUDGE PHILLIPS", "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2915, "page_number": "2325", "date": "21 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-21", "text": "Court No. 2 (lrz)\nDR. BERGOLD:It says so everywhere on the list of these present. You can see it at the head of those lists and all the exhibits which have been presented.\nJUDGE PHILLIPS:Each one?\nDR. BERGOLD:Some sheets pertaining to these meetings are missing, because the prosecution submitted only separate sheets. They are only handing over a sheet and they that must be connected. In this connection the Prosecution is making it unusually difficult for us to submit our evidence. For instance, two sheets which refer to this meeting are being submitted without an accompanying list of these present and without the first list.\nJUDGE PHILLIPS:Dr. Bergold, it would aid us a good deal where the witness does not say he was present at the meeting, just ask him the question so we will know if he was there or not, because if he wasn't there what he knows about this meeting would be negligible.\nDR. BERGOLD:Very well.\nQ. (By Dr. Bergold) Witness, were you attending the meeting of 30 November, 1943?\nA.I am not in a position new to remember the matter accurately, but I shall have to read from the records, and then I can tell you whether I was there or not.\nDR. BERGOLD:He is listed here anyway. Please give that to the witness.\nQ.Have a look at the first sheet. Is that your name?\nTHE PRESIDENT:It will be sufficient if you tell us whether the cover sheet shows he was present.\nDR. BERGOLD:Very well, In all the records which I have submitted so far I have found his name.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Good.\nQ.Witness, were you in attendance at the time when the Rautenbach factory at Wernigerode was inspected?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "JUDGE PHILLIPS", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2916, "page_number": "2326", "date": "21 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-21", "text": "A.No.\nQ.Witness, I shall turn to N.O.K.W. 241, Exhibit 152. Witness, is it known to you that the name of the defendant Milch was frequently misused by third sources in the way that they based their statements up on it?\nA.Yes, that is well known to me. For instance, I can give you an example, a personal experience of mine when one of my subordinates misused the name of the Field Marshal too. This happened in 1942 in the autumn. I had just cleared out a flight at Kiev in order to attend the experiment with the bomb which we had developed jointly with the industry, and the fire fighting with which we were concerned. Large scale fire fighting squads had been employed, and in the evening the town governor of Kiev had invited me to the German restaurant there. I was surprised to see the lovely collection of things which he produced, and it was on that occasion that it was discovered that the town governor had been of the opinion that Field Marshall Milch was ping to attend this inspection something which this bomb development chief had told him at the time although that had never been true. The Field Marshal had never been asked to attend this inspection. This is just a small example.\nQ.Was this reported at the time so that he would get a particularly good dinner?\nA.Well, that was no of the reasons. They were expected to exert themselves in every way, they were to make special efforts, much more than if I had come alone.\nQ.Witness, now I turn to document Exhibit 159,R-134. Your Honors, this is the so-called Torboven affair. Witness, are you familiar with the fact that the Reich Commissioner Torboven had a sabotage detail, who attempted to escape ***t down in Norway, that he had a village set on fire, and that he had people taken into a concentration camp?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2917, "page_number": "2327", "date": "21 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-21", "text": "A.Yes. Of course, I can't tell you now what the year was when that happened, but I do recollect that a story to that effect had been told in the Reich Marshal's office and came to us in connection with this.\nQ.I think that I can refresh your memory. Here is the cover sheet with the names contained in the document.\nA.This is it. In fact, I was rebuked by the Field Marshal. Someone working under me and Dr. Fischer from the development department, C-7, this was the German development department, apparently he was in direct contact with the Reich Marshal after that time, and I got a rocket and red neck. There was a sabotage troop which had been found which the secret service had handed over in order to cut out sabotage on aircraft. Me had been asked to examine this article and to make suggestions how one could protect oneself against such types of sabotage. When reading this report I saw how Torboven had acted against these people and escaping Norwegians, and I got considerably worked up and talked to the Field Marshal about it, and I can now remember very accurately a few days later in Rochlin the ReichsMarshal was attending a demonstration, it must have been about five or six days later, I can't give you the accurate date, but at any rate it was the first time that the ReichsMarshall returned to Rochlin after not having been there since 1939, because when he went there with the Fuehrer he was very pleased with the things he was shown, but during later years he became very annoyed about the fact that so much fog, such a fog screen was put down for him at the time, that it was on that day that the engineer corps, as far as they were there, were con siderably yelled at by him, and I remember now very accurately that subsequently the Field Marshall and Colonel General Jeschonnek, the Chief of the General Staff of the Air Force and I, had an opportunity to speak very briefly with the Reich Marshall, just the four of us, and I know that the Field Marshal referred to this report and states his opinion quite clearly to the ReichsMarshal regarding the type of action which Torboven was adopting in Norway.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2918, "page_number": "2328", "date": "21 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-21", "text": "It was on this occasion he had another attack of fury accompanied by a red neck and the ReichsMarshall also became pretty tough and told him to mind his own business, that this was a matter that Torboven was going to settle with the Fuehrer by himself, and nothing else happened subsequently.\nQ.Witness, can you remember that on that occasion he misused a nasty word that he ascribed to Torboven in a certain thing?\nA.Yes, he said the whole thing was a pig-sty business.\nQ.Didn't he use the word \"marodour\"?\nA.Yes, that might be so. I can't remember that in detail, but at any rate he called the whole thing a pig-sty affair, and he really got an attack of rage.\nDR. BERGOLD:Your Honors, will you recall please that the honorable representative of the prosecution, Mr. Denney, has put in detail to the defendant why he did not make demonstrations against this, and the defendant, you can look at the record pertaining to this, no longer reremembered that he had a furious clash with the ReichsMarshall Goering on this matter so that the prisoner did not testify he had a social red neck. And you will recall, your Honors, that several witnesses and the defendant himself have stated here that afterwards he never remembered a thing cf these matters which he said in his attacks of rage.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2919, "page_number": "2329", "date": "21 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-21", "text": "Now, if this man had known that he had objected to this Terbevon case with all his courage in front of the Reichsmarshall, then he would be able to answer the severe attacks made by Mr. Denney, because this is very important mitigating evidence. He just could not remember because it happened during an attack of rage.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2920, "page_number": "2330", "date": "21 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-21", "text": "BY DR. BERGOLD:\nQWitness, do you know that Milch quite often, when such an attack of rage was over, made inquiries of his people, what on earth he had been saying and whom he had been insulting and so on?\nAYes, I remember that. I remember that I had frequent conversations with Gablenz and von der Heyde, his successor, in the afternoons after such meetings, when the three of us went to see the Field Marshal, and when we told him that he'd raged a lot that morning, and that rather severe language had been used, he always used to say right away, that --\nQGo on, please.\nAHe used to say, \"if I insulted you too, let me apologize,\" and that has always been an indication for us that he didn't even know what he said. Actually he never went against the two of us. That never happened during all that time, but, as to his expressions, he just apparently didn't remember them, or he wouldn't have assumed that he insulted us too, and I must say that these attacks apparently were connected with these two serious flying accidents. I remember that in 1942, that being the first year of our collaboration, Professor Kalk treated him continuously and was always giving him drugs because during these long meetings in smoky and badly-aired rooms he frequently had a sort of veil for his eyes and he told me a few times that he was just short of fainting. He was continuously getting drugs in order to fight these fainting fits. This condition improved at a later stage and only deteriorated again after his car accident at Stalingrad.\nQWitness, do you know that he made an application to Goering after Stalingrad to be relieved because physically he could not stand it any longer?\nAYes.At that time he was in a very bad physical condition. He had received fractures from that accident and he was in the hospital near Stalingrad for a lengthy period and he carried out his activities from there for some time. I know that at the time he urgently requested to be relieved from his offices but this wasn't granted, of course.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2921, "page_number": "2331", "date": "21 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-21", "text": "QWitness, was it possible for a general to resign in Germany at all?\nANo, it certainly was not, during the war.\nQWitness, is it known to you that there were factories in which a General Field Marshal too could not enter without special papers?\nAEvery plant, and of course I can only answer for air force factories, could only be entered with a special pass, this special so-called \"red pass,\" which the Field Marshal and I had, entitled us, within such plants, to enter into secret production shops and development workshops. There was a special endorsement on this card the color of which was different from the color of the cards of other people who had permission to enter the factory. These passes had to be shown at all times and I cannot recollect a single case where I succeeded in getting into the plants without such a pass.\nQCan you remember that near Regensburg there was a plant which required yet another special pass - an additional pass?\nAAt Regensburg. Do you mean Messerschmitt? Oh, yes, the Messerschmitt Works at Obertraubling. That was what I reported the other day, where this large aircraft was being manufactured, near the Autobahn from Munich to Augsburg and Stuttgart, the air force camp at Leipheim, and it happened actually oh one occasion that an officer who was driving over the Autobahn and who had come to a halt, and was missing at the airport, was shot by a sentry after he had been halted three times. A German officer. Large posters had been erected which were drawing attention to the fact that from this point halting or stopping was not permitted.\nQWhat about the physical condition of the Field Marshal in Spring 1945?", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2922, "page_number": "", "date": "21 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-21", "text": "A.According to the reports which I received through Colonel Petersen, who was often in my office, and District 7 the Field Marshal had a very serious car accident in the Autumn of 1944 and he had been extremely sick in bed and was limping on crutches, as Colonel Petersen told me. He was no longer in active service and was comparatively 2331a badly hurt.", "speakers": [ "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2923, "page_number": "2332", "date": "21 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-21", "text": "DR. BERGOLD:Your Honors, I have no further questions to this witness.\nMR. DENNEY:I may have one or two questions,.Your Honor, not many But may we have a recess so that I can look at the --\nTHE MARSHAL:The Tribunal is in recess for fifteen minutes.\n(A recess was taken.)", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "DR. BERGOLD", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2924, "page_number": "2333", "date": "21 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-21", "text": "THE MARSHAL:Tribunal Number 2 is again in session.\nCROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. DENNEY:\nQWitness, do you recall my questioning you on 11 March?\nAYes, I do.\nQDo you remember I asked you if you attended a meeting addressed by the defendant which was held in Berlin on 25 March 1944?\nAYes, the one that was addressed to the fleet engineers and quartermasters.\nQYes. How many people were at that Meeting?\nAThere might have been about fifty to sixty people. It was in the great hall of the Air Ministry, in the so-called Hermann Goering Hall.\nQAnd do you remember that I asked you whether he said anything about \"there is no international law\" at that meeting?\nAYes, I do.\nQAnd your answer was no?\nAThat's right.\nQAnd I asked you whether or not you had heard anything about how many different dialects were spoken by the various employees in the factories?\nAFactories? Dialects? You mean languages, don't you?\nQLanguages, yes.\nAIn the flak batteries you mean?\nQNo, in the factories, Luftwaffe factories.\nAOh, I see, factories, yes.\nQDo you remember that I asked you this question: \"You didn't hear him say anything about how many different dialects were spoken by the various employees of the factory?\", and you answered \"No?\"\nAI do not remember this last question.At the time we did not speak about the various languages spoken in the factories.\nQThen I asked you this question: \"Nothing in the speech so far as you recall to indicate that there there any foreign workers working for you?\"", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2925, "page_number": "2334", "date": "21 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-21", "text": "and you answered, \"We, the question of labor and workers was not so important at this conference.\" Do you remember that?\nAYes, I do.At that meeting the labor question mas not so important because the question was from the various supply points of the Luftwaffe which had been taken care of by the quartermasters of the Luftgaus and by the engineers to get spare parts which already belonged to the troop for use in aircraft production, in order to complete planes that were incompleted at the time.\nQDid he say anything about the hours of work there?\nAYes, he did. We generally worked from eight to nine hours.\nQFrom eight to nine hours?\nAYes, and during special programs this was increased sometimes, and in the Jaegerstab the number of working hours was increased considerably.\nQBut how much did you hear him talk about, so far as working hours were concerned, on that day?\nAAt that meeting you mean?\nQYes, we are still talking about the same meeting.\nAWell, I can't remember. I can't recall that the working hours were discussed there.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2926, "page_number": "2335", "date": "21 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-21", "text": "QDid you hear him say anything about a special Courts-Martial that he had?\nAI did know that he had a Courts-Martial; however, whether that point was discussed during the meeting, I don't know.\nQWell, you have got a pretty good memory for what happened at all these other meetings. Do you recall what happened here?\nAYes; however, I do not remember all those details.\nQWell, let me refresh your recollection. On the first page you said, \"We do have in our employ today approximately 60% foreigners and 40% Germans and one has to take into consideration that women work in the factories one half a day. Therefore, the ratio of Germans to foreigners becomes considerably more unfavorable. The ratio is gradually appreaching 90% foreigners with 10% German managers. The rest of the Germans arc concentrated in development of factories and the like.\"\nDo you remember now that he spoke about foreign laborers there?\nAYes, I do. He used this as an introduction in order to represent seriousness of the situation, which was very acute at the time.\nQAnd then a little later, on page eight: \"In brief, the people arrived there and are put to work there. If any doubts exist as to whether a request is justified where the people are not requested by numbers but as electricians, blacksmiths, fitters, turners, as unskilled laborers, as foreigners; then this is settled. If the results show that the request for people is not justified, then, the matter is referred to a commission. This commission examines the facts within 48 hours. If it becomes apparent that dirty dealings are going on, a special Courts-Martial was called into session and handed down a quick decision.\"\nDo you remember when he said that?\nAYes; by that he wanted to express the fact that the unjustified requests by factories... We had those repair shops, which have already been mentioned; and they also had labor requests. And I can only understand it in this connection.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2927, "page_number": "2336", "date": "21 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-21", "text": "Q.And if people did wrong things, they would show them up before a court?\nA.That is right. He said they would be placed before special court if they would request more laborers.\nQ.Then if people did do wrong things they were put before courts, weren't they?\nA.Yes; however I can not recall that in such cases that the Field Marshal's courts were ever in session. But as I said once before, as far as I can remember, this court only dealt with cases of corruption which occurred in the Luftwaffe, itself, or in connection with the industrialists. Industrialists were also convicted by this court.\nQ.Then, still on page eight, he said: \"The normal work-week in our industry is 72 hours.\" Do you recall that?\nA.Yes, I do.\nQ.That is a little more than eight or nine, isn't it?\nA.Yes, it is. At this time, already -- that is, since the first of March:\n-we had been under the jurisdiction of the Jaegerstab -- the Jaegerstab had increased the working hours.\nQ.Then a little later, he said: \"Then there is still the human factor. We often had considerable difficulty with the human factor. Fluctuation there is very considerable. The quota of the Luftwaffe and the distribution of manpower was constantly lowered; that foreigners run away, them don't keep a contract; there are difficulties with Frenchmen, Italians, Dutch. The prisoners of war are partly unruly and fresh, people are also supposed to be carrying on sabotage. These elements can not be made more efficient by small means. They are just not handled strictly enough. If the decent foremen would sock one of these unruly people because the fellow doesn't work, then the situation would soon change. International Law cannot be observed here. I have asserted myself very strongly and, with the help of Sauer, I have presented the point of view very strongly that the prisoners with the exception of the English and Americans, should be taken away from the military authorities. The soldiers are not in a position, as experience has shown, to cope with those fellows who know all the answers.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2928, "page_number": "2337", "date": "21 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-21", "text": "I shall take very strict measures here and shall put such a prisoner of war before my courtsmartial if he has committed sabotage or refused to work. I will have him hanged right in his own factory. I am convinced that that will not be without effect.\"\nDo you recall when he said that?\nA.On that date very strong words were used. I do not recall in detail all these expressions. However, it is quite possible that they occur.\nQ.And his neck was red and he was mad...and everybody just laughed it off?\nA.Yes.\nQ.And then, over a little farther, he said, on page twenty-two:\"In saying this, I do not even consider the fact that the workshops have first-class personnel, whereas we in the Luftwaffe armament industry have Russian, French prisoners of war, Dutch, and members of 32 other nations. The obtaining of interpreters alone presents a big difficulty there. I would be very grateful if the gentlemen who are concerned with this could carry out something in this field and succeed. Saving can be achieved only if every factory has one type and actually develops this methodically.\" Didn't strike you at the time that he mentioned that you had 32 nations represented in addition to Russians, French and Dutch?\nA.Well, I really can not recall any details, and the expression \"thirty-two nations\" I can not recall either. I can't remember that it was used, and I don't see how these could come together.\nQ.Well, this was the man who was Generalluftzeugmeister, Inspector-General in the Air Force talking to his subordinates...\nA.Those were not his subordinates: The Fleet Engineers and the Luftgau Engineers, Quartermasters, were not under his orders. They were under the General Staff.\nQ.Did you ever hear Milch give any oral orders to anybody?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2929, "page_number": "2338", "date": "21 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-21", "text": "A.Oral orders? Yes, they were given all right, of course.\nQ.So you didn't write down everything that You did?\nA.No. However, most of the things were decided upon in the meetings and conferences and then the completed records were sent to the office concerned.\nQ.Well, were any oral orders given in any of these meetings that you attended?\nA.Yes. For instance, they submitted a report with reference to this matter.\nQ.Then oral orders were given out at these meetings?\nA.Yes, but later on they were kept in the records in writing.\nQ.Now, in all these cases where oral orders were given, they were always reduced to writing?\nA.Yes, that was the custom in the Ministry.\nQ.That always happened?\nA.Yes.\nQ.Nobody ever acted on an oral order so far as you know?\nA.No.\nQ.What happened to Field Marshal Rommel?\nA.I did not know Field Marshal Rommel personally.\nQ.Well, was he active at the end of the war?\nA.No, I was only present there when he was buried. I was present there as representative of the Reich Marshal.\nQ.Was Field Marshal von Leeb active at the end of the war?\nA.Von Leeb?\nQ.Ritter von Leeb.\nA.Ritter von Leeb -- I don't believe that he was active. However, he is still alive.\nQ.Yes, he withdrew after the campaign up at the Pripjet Marshes, didn't he?\nA.The Field Marshal von Leeb who was in charge of the front at Petersburg?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2930, "page_number": "2339", "date": "21 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-21", "text": "There were two Ritter von Leeb's.\nQ.There's only one Field Marshal von Leeb.\nA.Yes, one Field Marshal, that's right.\nQ.Then after the campaign up in the Pripjet Marshes, he flew back to Hitler and told him that he wanted to straighten the lines up; that there were 10 divisions cut off up there; and Hitler wouldn't let him do it; and he retired?\nA.Yes. I don't know anything at all about this matter.\nQ.You recall when Rundstedt became inactive when he was assigned on the Eastern Front?\nA.Yes, Rundstedt withdrew five times and was taken back five times.\nQ.Yes, but he did withdraw, didn't he?\nA.Yes, he did; and he lived down here in Southern Bavaria.\nMR. DENNEY:I have no further questions.\nREDIRECT EXAMINATION BY DR. BERGOLD:\nQ.Witness, did Mr. von Rundstedt resign on his own or was he ordered to do so by his superior officer, that is Hitler?\nA.Hitler made him resign and then took him back.\nQ.In other words, he did not resign on his own?\nA.No, he could not.\nQ.When he had been released from active service, was he a Field Marshal any longer?\nA.Yes, he was. I have mentioned before that in the German army it was customary that a Field Marshal always remains active until the end of his life; in other words, until his death.\nDR. BERGOLD:Your Honors, with reference to the question of thirtytwo nations, I have just counted the nations in Europe. If we disregard the Russians and the French, then there were the Spaniards, the Portuguese, the Belgians, the Dutch, the Luxembourgers, the Norwegians, the Swedee, the Italians, the Hungarians, the Serbs -- or the Groates or the Yugoslavs -- I'm sorry;", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2931, "page_number": "2340", "date": "21 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-21", "text": "but I'm very tired today because I had a bad heart attack last night -the Czechs, the Poles, Bulgarians, the Roumanians, the Swiss, and the Creeks. In other words, a total of sixteen nations. I don't believe that in Germany we used Portuguese or Spaniards or Swedes or Swiss. None of them worked in Germany. Then, as far as I know, there were no Roumanians working here either. In other words, it's one of those passages where the defendant says more than the truth.\nI have no further questions to the witness.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The Marshal may remove the witness.\nDR. BERGOLD:May it please your Honors, I have a few exhibits which I would like to submit; and I ask the Secretary General, if I may, to distribute the English copies to the Court. I hope that Mr. Denney also received the English copies. However, the distribution is not in my hands. I have no objection to their being offered, your Honor. I received none of these; and I received none of the last batch being offered.\nI would like to submit Exhibit Number 51, an excerpt from the Nurnberger Nachrichten of the 5th of March, 1947. That is the third year of publication, Number 18, page 3. On the basis of an Associated Press report, the following thing is being said:\n\"On the basis of statements made by five German women on March 1st, German female Wehrmacht Auxiliaries who had returned from captivity in Russia, representatives of the German church told the public that 20,000 German women are in Russian camps. Those five who returned out of hundreds of women who were in Russia are mines or foundries themselves said they had been released because of illness.\"\nThe remaining part is not interesting at all.\nI am submitting this because according to my opinion it proves how Soviet Russia interprets the directives with respect to treatment of prisoners of war between Russia and Germany.\nI would then like to submit Exhibit Number 52, which is an affidavit of Herr Schirmer. It reads as follows:\n\"I, Albin Schirmer, born on the 25th of August, 1892, in Bamberg, postal address Nurnberg, Furtherstrasse 58, my attention having been drawn to the fact that I will be punished if I give a false affidavit.", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2932, "page_number": "2341", "date": "21 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-21", "text": "I declare on the basis of this affidavit that my statement is the truth and is to be used as evidence before the Military Tribunal Number 2 in the Palace of Justice, Nurnberg, Germany.\n\"Since 1929 I worked at the Nurnberg Hercules Works GMBH, and I also worked there during the entire war as a workshop master or foreman. The necessary workers were requested by the firm at the labor office. The labor office preferred the firm to use French prisoners of war or Free French and Free Czech laborers. These free foreign laborers, who also worked on Luftwaffe orders, were on the same basis, or were just as good as the German workers in every respect.\n\"The greatest part of them lived in furnished rooms. Some of them lived in camps because it was much cheaper there. Working hours and payment food coupons, and the additional worker's coupons were the same as with ever German. Their freedom to move about was the same as that of the Germans. For example, they could visit theatres, movies, cafes, German families; and the same applied to talking to German girls, which, however, did not apply to prisoners of war. The sanitary facilities of the firm were good and were at the disposal of both German and foreign workers. The prisoners of war has a certain time to take showers, while the free foreign workers could take showers with the Germans. The free French workers were allowed to correspond freely with France; and they also spent their leaves there.\n\"I know of only two cases in which free French workers did not return from their leave in France. Many French prisoners of war reported voluntarily as free laborers in order to avail themselves of the various privileges. The prisoners of war also asked for beer every day. During the airraids the free foreign workers volunteered for difficult work which they wouldn't have done if they hadn't been treated properly. After the arrival of the American troops the mass of the French workers said good-bye to me very kindly and shook hands with me, wishing me the very best of luck.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2933, "page_number": "2342", "date": "21 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-21", "text": "\"The Ukrainian laborers, female workers, also, according to their own statements, were well-off.\n\"(Signed) Albin Schirmer. Thus is to testify that this above signature is proper and was witnessed by Dr. Werner Milch. (Signed) Dr. Werner Milch, assistant defense counsel before Military Tribunal Number 2.\"", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2934, "page_number": "2343", "date": "21 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-21", "text": "DR. BERGOLD:I would like to submit now Exhibit No. 54. I already submitted No. 53 yesterday. This is the affidavit of Frau Mathilde Kayser, \"I, Dr. Mathilde Kayser, born Hunnius at Hagen-Westphalia.\nNow resident in Hagen-Westphalen, In der Welle 34, has been cautioned that I will be liable to punishment if I make a false affidavit. I declare under oath that my state ment is true, and was made in order to present evidence before the Military Tribunal No. 2, at the Palace of Justice, Nurnberg, Germany. My husband's comrades including Dankwart Graf. v. Arnim and Dr. Hellmuth Freiherr von Maltzahn, who live in Hagen-Westphalen, In der Welle 34, have given the identical account of the death of my husband, 1st Lieutenant of the Reserve, Dr. Jur. Wolfang Kayser.\n\"On 27 August 1944, my husband and several comrades were captured in Paris by the French. The German soldiers were marched away together with their hands raised. Without any obvious reasons an armed French civilian suddenly stopped out from the crowd standing in the street, and fired a shot from his pistol at close range, which hit my husband in the left temple so that he fell dead immediately. The French neither arrested the Frenchman, nor did they make any investigation whatsoever. The German comrades bent down over the dying man. They were driven off with blows from rifle butts. The various information of the comrades about the death through the Red Cross was never forwarded to me. I received the information about his death only on 1 April 1946, after the release of eye witnesses from American and English captivity. I still know nothing about the location of his grave, nor have I received any official communication. Signed. Dr. Mathilde Kayser. The above signature of Dr. Mathilde Kayser Hagen-Westphalen, In der Welle 34, made before the undersigned, is hereby certified and witnessed by me. Hagen, 9 February 1947, Signature, Dr. Werner Milch. Assistant Defense Counsel before Military Tribunal No. 2\".", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2935, "page_number": "2344", "date": "21 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-21", "text": "Now, may it please Your Honor, I don't wish to accuse anybody, be it far from me, to say that the French Nation had anything to do with it. I only want to say that there are certain acts committed in excitement without a motive of revenge amongst millions of people which the war had led to fight against each other, and that there are certain acts which are not very pleasant, without one being able to charge or accuse the government, or the military superiors, or to make the entire people responsible.\nNow I would like to introduce Exhibit No. 56, an affidavit of Dr. Rolf Funzengruber, which reads as follows:\n\"I, Dr. Rolf Punzengruber, born on 19 December 1900, Schwarzenbach Kaernten, stateless, a witness at the Place of Justice in Nurnberg, have been informed that I make myself liable with punishment if I make a false affidavit. I declare on oath that my testimony is true, and was made in order to present evidence before the Military Tribunal No. 2, at the Palace of Justice, Nurnberg, Germany. I was a prisoner of the Gestapo from '41 to '43. I was a concentration camp inmate at Dachau for the greater part of this time I was detailed to the concentration camp as a prisoner to do chemical work for Dr. Rascher. During all of this time the name of Milch was never mentioned. Rancher was morally inferior, had a greed for money, and was inclined to lie and used to exaggeration, to ambiguous expressions. He was false and a psychopathic individual. Signed. Dr. Rolf Punzengruber. The above signature at the Place of Justice, Nurnberg, has been made in the presence of Dr. Friedrich Bergold, Attorney at law, and hereby certified witnessed by me on 8 March 1947. Signature Dr. Friedrich Bergold, counsel for defense, Military Tribunal No. 2.\"\nNow I am through with my presentation, may it please Your Honor, and in this whole document book I have not shown the charge put at least of the Speer contradiction with the past exhibits which had been submitted here.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2936, "page_number": "2345", "date": "21 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-21", "text": "These charges could not be mimeographed as is customary because it is too large. It will be photostated and then submitted to you in the English translation, that is, as a photostatic copy. I beg you to have patience. Besides that, Your Honor, there are quite a number of requests as I already mentioned yesterday, which I sent out through the Secretary General, showing that the alterations in the verbatim record to contain very serious mistakes; these are mainly very serious mistakes; I am very worried about this matter. Then these records in English do not only contain stenotype mistakes of the stenotypes, which can be understood, but also mistakes or misunderstandings by the interpreters, which can also be understood. However, if these records are submitted to you, you are liable to draw false conclusions. I don't know how this should be changed. The requests for alterations have been submitted by me, and that was only part of the material which I was able to look through as I am busy all the time, and it is not very easy for us Germans when we do not speak English well, as is the case with me, as I myself did not learn English during my youth; it is not my language because I was taught Greek and Latin and then it is rather difficult to carry out such a comparison. However, this matter must be cleared up somehow, because the records are the basis for your judgment. The requests are under way, and so far I have heard nothing about their fate. I have only heard that for certain technical reasons they have to go through quite a number of processes, and they are being checked up now. As the information center was only at my disposal, for my requests, it is my opinion also that quite serious and distorting mistakes are in the records. Therefore, I would like to ask this Tribunal to take care of this matter and to think it over and to give it their kind assistance, which has been given to me so many times, and I have every confidence to tell this to the Tribunal in every respect. That is all I have to say.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2937, "page_number": "2346", "date": "21 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-21", "text": "MR. DENNEY:If Your Honors please, I have here a teletype cable which was received from the Provost Marshal General of the United States Army. I have not as yet been able to get any copy made and I am sure Dr. Bergold will not mind, in view of the misfortunes he has had recently with his exhibits. However, I shall give him one as soon as I get it translated. It is from the War Department:\n\"20 March 1947, 0232Z. Office of Chief Counsel. Reference your radio March OCC ML dated 110800Z, following affidavit prepared by General Bryan, the Prevost Marshal General. Blackshear. Bryan being duly sworn deposes and says: That he is a Brigadier General in US Army serving as Provost Mrshal General. That from 17 December 42 until 45 he was Assistant Provost Marshal General. That from 3 December 45 to 6 December 1945 he was acting as Provost Marshal General. That from 7 December 45 to date he has been The Provost Marshal General. That during the period of the war the Office of the Provost Marshal General functioned as the staff agency of the Commanding General, Army Service Forces, and carried out the responsibility of the Commanding General, Army Service Forces, in all matters pertaining to enemy prisoners of war. That among these responsibilities were:\n\"A. Supervision and execution of War Department policy to make effective the provisions of the Geneva Convention of 1929, reference to the treatment of prisoners of war.\n\"B. Formulation of necessary rules and regulations reference War Department responsibility in control of prisoners of war. That the Office of the Provost Marshal General had jurisdiction over Prisoners of War Division, and the operations section of teletype Prisoners of War Division. That in order to implement the provisions of the Geneva Convention of '29 and to provide War Department personnel and others concerned with information concerning basic plans and policies of the War Department reference prisoners of war, War Department Technical Manual 19-500, entitled 'Enemy Prisoners of War', was published by order of the Secretary of War for information and guidance of all concerned. That further in accord with the Geneva Convention and with Technical Manual 19-500, and with specific reference to the work of German prisoners of war within the continental limits of the United States:", "speakers": [ "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2938, "page_number": "2347", "date": "21 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-21", "text": "\"Chapter 5, Section 3, Technical Manual 19-500 states:\n\"'1. No prisoner of war nay be employed at labors for which he is physically unfit.\n\"'2. Labor furnished by prisoners of war shall have no direct relation with war operations. It is especially prohibited for manufacturing and transporting arms or munitions of any kind, or for transporting material intended for combatant units.'\n\"Officers from my office, and who reported directly to me, inspected the camps and labor projects of German prisoners of war. The inspections of thest officers, together with my own inspections, did not reveal violations of the above quoted provisions.\"", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2939, "page_number": "2348", "date": "21 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-21", "text": "\"The inspections of these officers, together with my own inspections, did not reveal violations of the above quoted previsions. To the best of my knowledge and belief, I would have known of such violations had they taken place.\n\"That the words 'installations' and 'military installations' as used in War Department publications or reports concerning the utilication of German prisoners of war meant only posts, camps, stations, and offices. Such words had no reference to war factories or other places of manufacturing arms or munitions of any kind.\n\"That wherever the words 'installations' and 'military installations' were used in connection with the later of German prisoners of war, they were not to be defined or used in such a manner as to negate or circumvent the provisions contained in Technical Manual 19-500 against using prisoners cf war in violation cf the Geneva Convention.\n\"That to the best of my knowledge and belief the labor of German prisoners of war was used only in types of labor permitted by the Geneva Convention.\"\nIf Your Honors please, we would like to mark this as Exhibit Number 160. I shall furnish the Court with copies of this this afternoon, I trust.\nAt this time I should like to make a blanket offer of all those exhibits which were offered for Identification. I believe, Your Honor, it began with 126.\nTHEPRESIDENT: 126, yes.\nMR. DENNEY:That would be exhibit 126 through Exhibit 159, all of which have been heretofore marked for identification, which are now offered in evidence.\nI should like at this time to ask the Court to judicially notice the -\nDR.BERGOLD: (Interposing) Could Mr. Denney be kind enough to tell me what the affidavits are according to their contents, in a few words? I have no knowledge of these affidavits here.\nMR. DENNEY:I am not talking about affidavits, Dr. Bergold. I am talking about exhibits which have been submitted and marked for identification. You have seen all of them.", "speakers": [ "DR.", "MR. DENNEY", "THE" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2940, "page_number": "", "date": "21 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-21", "text": "DR. BERGOLD:Oh, I see, It is a misunderstanding. I thought they were called affidavits.\nTHE PRESIDENT:These are the same exhibits that you used to cross examine.\nDR. BERGOLD:Thank you.\nTHE PRESIDENT:In accordance with the Chief of Counsel's motion, offered exhibits Number 126 through 159 will be received in evidence and incorporated in the record.\nMR. DENNEY:Do you propose to give us copies later of the cable which you just read?\nMR. DENNEY:Yes, Your Honor. It is being copied now. I just haven't been able to get it copied or translated up to now. That will be Exhibit 160.\nI'd also like to ask the Court at this time to judicially notice the opinion of the International Military Tribunal and to give me leave to quote from it in summation. There are three short passages with reference to the Schmundt record which I should like to read into the record.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Passages from the judgment of the International Military Tribunal?\nMR. DENNEY:Yes.\nTHE PRESIDENT:I think the Tribunal under the Ordinance takes judicial notice of that, and it is already in the record by reference.\nMR. DENNEY:Your Honors feel it will not be necessary to read this?\nTHE PRESIDENT:You may use it in your summation because it is already by operation of the Ordinance, a part of this record.\nMR. DENNEY:And Your Honors feel it is not necessary at this time to read any part of it in?\nTHE PRESIDENT:Exactly.\nMR. DENNEY:We are in a little quandary over your effort to incorporate part of the judgment of the IMT trial. Do you propose to offer findings of fact made in that judgment as binding upon us?\nMR. DENNEY: YES, Your Honors, I just wanted to cite the part of the ****2349*** record where they discussed the Schmundt record of the meeting of 23 May 1939.", "speakers": [ "MR. DENNEY", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2941, "page_number": "2350", "date": "21 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-21", "text": "THE PRESIDENT:In that discussion, did they make findings of fact?\nMR. DENNEY:Yes, Your Honor.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Perhaps, then , if you expect that to be part of the proof-- and undoubtedly you do -- it ought to be read into the record.\nMR. DENNEY:If Your Honor pleases.\nIf Your Honor pleases, this is from pare 1** of the Judgment cf the International Military Tribunal, which is being quoted from the official text in the English language, published in book form at Numberg in 1947:\n\"The Planning of Aggression: The evidence from captured documents has revealed that Hitler held four secret meetings to which the Tribunal proposes to make special reference because of the light they shed upon the question of the common plan and an aggressive war.\n\"These meetin ;s took place en $ November 1937, 23 May 1939, 22 ..uaust 1939, and 23 November 1939. At these meetings important declarations were made by Hitler as to his purposes which are quite unmistakable in their terms. The documents which record what took place at these meetings have been subjected to some criticism at the hands of defending counsel. Their essential authenticity is not denied, but it is said, for example, that they do not propose to be verbatim transcripts of the speeches they record; that the document deal with the meeting of 5 November 1937 is dated five days after the meeting had taken place, and that the two documents dealing with the meeting of 22 August 1939 differ from one another and are unsigned.\n\"Making the fullest allowance for criticism of this kind, the Tribunal is of the opinion that the documents are documents of the highest value and that their authenticity and substantial truth are established. They are obviously careful records of the events they describe, and they have been preserved as such in the archives of the German Government, from whose custody they were captured. Such documents could never be dismissed as inventions nor even as inaccurate or distorted. They plainly record events which actually took place.\"\nThey again refer to the document:", "speakers": [ "MR. DENNEY", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2942, "page_number": "2351", "date": "21 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-21", "text": "\"On 23 May 1939 a meeting was held in Hitler's study.\nJUDGE PHILLIPS:The page?\nMR. DENNEY:Page 198, sir.\n\"On 23 May 1939 a meeting was held in Hitler's study in the new Reich Chancellery in Berlin. Hitler announced his decision to attack Poland and gave his reasons and discussed the effect the decision might have on other countries. In point of time, this was the second of the important meetings to which reference has already been made, and in order to appreciate the full significance of what was said and done, it is necessary to state shortly some of the main events in the history of German-Polish relations.\"", "speakers": [ "JUDGE PHILLIPS", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2943, "page_number": "2352", "date": "21 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-21", "text": "Then, on Page 200, it was four weeks after making this speech, that Hitler on May 23, 1939, held the important military conference to which reference has already been made. Among the persons present were the defendants Goering, Raeder and Keitel. The adjutant on duty that day was Lieutenant Colonel Schmundt, and he made a record of what happened, certifying it with his signature as a correct record. The purpose of the meeting was to enable Hitler to inform the heads of the armed forces and their staffs of his view on the political situation and the future action after analyzing the political situation, and in view of tire course of events since 1933 Hitler announced his decision to attack Poland. He admitted the quarrel with Poland over Danzig was not the reason for this attack, but the necessity for Germany to enlarge her living space and secure her food supply. He said, \"The solution of problems demands courage. The principle by which one evades solving the problem by adapting to one's self the circumstances is inadmissible. The circumstances must rather be adapted to needs. This is impossible without invasion of foreign states or attacks upon foreign property.\" Later in an additional statement he added, \"There is therefore no question of sparing Poland. We are left with the decision to attack Poland at the first suitable opportunity. We cannot expect a repetition of the Czech affair. There will be war. Our task is to isolate Poland. The success of the isolation will be decisive. The isolation of Poland is a matter of skilful politics\". Lieutenant Colonel Schmundt's record of the meeting reveals that Hitler fully realized the possibility of Great Britain and France coming to Poland's assistance. If therefore the isolation of Poland could not be achieved, Hitler was of the opinion that Germany should attack Great Britain and France first or at any rate should concentrate primarily on the war in the west in order to defeat Great Britain and France quickly or at least destroy their effectiveness. Nevertheless Hitler stressed that war with England and France would be a life and death struggle which might last a long time, and preparations must be made accordingly. That last appears on Pages 200 and 201, if Your Honors please.\nIf your Honors please, I believe initially I have already offered the findings with reference to the power and authority of the Central Planning, and I shall check that this noon to make sure that all the parts which are applicable are in the record, and if necessary then I can supplement what is there after luncheon.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2944, "page_number": "2353", "date": "21 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-21", "text": "THE PRESIDENT:I believe it is all there Mr. Denney, now.\nMR. DENNEY:As I recall it I believe I have.\nDR. BERGOLD:May it please this Tribunal, in connection with those things just read now by Mr. Denney, I would like to remind this Tribunal of the fact that not so long ago we already had a discussion about this fact if in these proceedings any more evidence could be submitted against the sins of the International Tribunal. I believe that in this hall I am the only one who had the honor to be directly present at the Internartional Tribunal. At the time I declared to this Tribunal here that the International Military Tribunal omitted a series of evidence, or rather did not listen to a series of evidence I submitted. In this case several witnesses were examined by me, Schniewindt, Engel, Raeder.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Let me interrupt you. This is not offered as considered binding upon this Tribunal. Under the terms of the ordinance this is part of the matter to be considered by this Court, but any other evidence, such as that you are now mentioning, will also receive due consideration, so don't be alarmed that we are prejudging on the basis that the International Military Tribunal forces us to.\nDR. BERGOLD:Thank you.\nMR. DENNEY:Thank you. We now offer as Exhibit 161 an affidavit by Walter Napp. If Your Honors recall he was the man who testified before Mr. Justice Beals' Tribunal. His testimony was read in here, and he was also called by Dr. Bergold, presented solely with reference to when a crematorium as far as this inmate's knowledge was concerned, was first erected at Dachau.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Of course, Mr. Denney, you have handed us a transcript of the proceedings before the Military Tribunal, but you didn't mention if you wish it to be in the record.\nMR. DENNEY:Yes, Your Honors, I am sorry. Have you already marked that?", "speakers": [ "MR. DENNEY", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2945, "page_number": "2354", "date": "21 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-21", "text": "DR. BERGOLD:I have to object to the introduction of this affidavit because of two reasons. Firstly, the Witness Napp was already here, and the witness testified in this Tribunal, and Mr. Denney had the opportunity to examine him. If Mr. Denney would have directed the questions then to Napp then I would have been able to bring here counter evidence with the examination of Obergruppenfuehrer Karl Wolff. However, due to the formal proceedings, this is now made impossible unless I have leave to call Wolff again, but this would lead to a trial that would never end, and I am of the opinion, therefore, that this affidavit should not be admitted in this particular case, because Wolff was examined after Napp, and at that time everything could have been cleared.\nMR. DENNEY:It just happens that the prisoner who was in Dachau can say that there was a crematorium there in 1940 testified before Obergruppenfuchrer Wolff. I didn't know what his witness Wolff was going to say. I didn't call Napp. I read in his testimony, and Dr. Bergold called him to cross-examine him. Now, if it presents any difficulties to your Honors why --\nDR. BERGOLD:I have learned during recourse of my activity, before those Military Tribunals, that generally speaking, such affidavit's should not be submitted afterwards. I can also remember an objection which Mr. Denney made, namely with reference to an affidavit by Richter. At the time it was not discussed any further because it was not regarded relevant by the judges as far as I remember. The affidavit was not submitted by me as far as I recall. However, here an affidavit is being submitted that has more importance because this witness, Walter Napp, only speaks of hearsay in this evidence with reference to Wolff. He does not even state from his own knowledge. This makes my evidence more difficult.\nMR. DENNEY:I don't know when hearsay has been inadmissible in this Tribunal. We have certainly had a lot of it.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Well let's try to salvage some of the fundamental rules of evidence, and one seems to be it is not permitted to make a collateral attack on an immaterial matter upon the testimony of a witness.", "speakers": [ "THE PRESIDENT", "DR. BERGOLD", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2946, "page_number": "2355", "date": "21 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-21", "text": "This is intended, to impeach the Witness Wolff, is it not?\nMR. DENNEY:Yes, your Honor. I will be glad to withdraw it.\nTHE PRESIDENT:We will be glad to exclude it. Mr. Denney, will you explain to us about this transcript?\nMR. DENNEY:Yes, this is a partial transcript from the testimony of the Witness Wuerfler called before Mr. Justice Beals' Court. Wuerfler was Chief of Staff to Hippke, and all this is offered for is to show that Wuerfler testified before that Tribunal. We are asking the court to judicially notice his testimony, that Wuerfler stated, on Page 3135 in answer to a question, \"A few moments ago you mentioned that you met Dr. Rascher during the course of planning or preparing such a meeting at the Secretary of State's office; that is Secretary of State Milch, is it not?", "speakers": [ "THE PRESIDENT", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2947, "page_number": "2356", "date": "21 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-21", "text": "\"A Yes, Secretary of State Milch.\" And in the second answer thereafter the time is established as September 1942 and the witness says in that connection, \"Well, the meeting should have taken place, and I shall picture the event as it was. That was in September 1942. With the 1st of September I was transferred to the Chief of the Wehrmacht Medical Service. Since my successor had to be trained, and since at that time Generalstabarzt Hippke had to go on leave, I was periodically still active in the Luftwaffe Inspectorate. From this time I remember that I was suddenly called away from my work because of a telephone call. I don't know who called me. I was to report to the Secretary of States for the purpose of a discussion. This discussion did not emanate from the Medical Inspectorate, but was ordered by the Secretary of State. I went there by car, that is from my agency in the Aviation Ministry, and in the corridor before the Office of the Secretary of State I met a few of my acquaintances, and some people I didn't know, and among the people I know I think Dr. Romberg was present.\"\nThe next question, \"Dr. Rascher was there also? \"A I wanted to say Dr. Romberg.\n\"Q. Dr. Rascher and Dr. Romberg together?\n\"A. No, I don't know Dr. Rascher, I don't know, I asked what was this about, and I learned that a certain Dr. Rascher was to make a report. No further details were given to me. The beginning of that meeting was postponed since the State Secretary didn't appear when he was expected. Since I was taken out of my work, my double work, I became very impatient and I asked Dr. Rascher, whom I hadn't known before, for the information of what this whole thing was about. Dr. Rascher refused to give me any information, and he said that he had a special order by the Secretary of State. Because of the fact a younger medical officer refused to give me that information, I was very angry and left this group, and I said something of the nature, \"If you have any secrets deal with them yourself.\"", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2948, "page_number": "2357", "date": "21 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-21", "text": "Upon that I returned to my office.\nDR. BERGOLD:May it please your Honors, according to my opinion the question must be decided upon basically. Mr. Denney from time to time submits reports from Military Tribunal No. 1, namely statements made by witnesses for which I was not a defense counsel myself, in which I was not present myself, and during which I can't develop the interests of my clients. Now, had I been present at that session, then, for instance, I would have asked the witness, or I would have been able to ask the witness how he knew that this meeting had been ordered by the State Secretary, as I know it could have been, or he would have had to give information and he didn't know it, and this was only one of his deductions. Furthermore, I would have been able to put before him if it is correct that Dr. Rascher spoke of a special deputy of the Secretary of State, or if he discussed the point that an order for secret meetings was received from Himmler, because all the witnesses who have appeared here so far have confirmed that the order to keep secret everything that was said had been given by Himmler, and Rascher referred to this secrecy order to Hippke. This, gentlemen, means if you accept this exhibit that I have to ask that the witness Wuerfler, who is outside of Nurnberg now, be brought back to Nurnberg so that I can question him on these various points, because this is of importance, if he really knew that Milch had ordered the meeting to take place, and it is also important to know if he did not refer, if he was not known with reference to this special order and if Rascher had not spoken of Himmler as Reichsfuehrer SS.\nYour Honors, a trial is being carried on upstairs. There is constant difficulty that I have no opportunity to be present up there to guard my client's interest. They are introducting and many times they were talking about the admissibility of experiments which would be important for my case. I have no possibility to go up there. I am just one single man, and I am not given the possibility to be at both places at the came time.", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2949, "page_number": "2358", "date": "21 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-21", "text": "Therefore I would like to request that this be withdrawn or that the Tribunal permit me to call the Witness Wuerfler to Nurnberg. I shall find out where he lives, and then we will just have to wait for him.\nTHE PRESIDENT:This seems to be much ado about nothing. Doesn't this exhibit show that Milch was not there, that they were all impatient? This exhibit indicates that Milch was not present, and the most incriminating thing, if it can be said to be that, in it, is that Milch called a certain meeting. This was the meeting at which the picture was to be shown, is it not?\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes, that is correct. However, your Honors, may I add one thing. You stated it is much ado about nothing. However, I have toe much respect for the wisdom of my opponent, that I have to take it that he is not submitting this affidavit for nothing, and therefore I have to object to it.\nMR. DENNEY:In order that Dr. Bergold may not be confused I will withdraw the offer.\nTHE PRESIDENT:I was right, it is much ado about nothing.\nMR. DENNEY:Just so the record will be straight, it is a matter of which the Court could take judicial notice, being part of the transcript of another Military Tribunal.", "speakers": [ "MR. DENNEY", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2950, "page_number": "2359", "date": "21 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-21", "text": "If your Honors will recall, I questioned the Witness Brandt, about 1971-PS, which was in evidence at the International Military Tribunal, and at that time I did not have copies of it to offer. I believe you will recall, Dr. Bergold, it was a letter from Himmler to Rascher of 13 April 1942, followed by a telegram from Rascher to Himmler in October, and then followed by a teletype from Brandt to Rascher in October. It was the question of Himmler's first instructions about the people who were to be pardoned, and then Rascher writes Himmler and says he wants to know whether if under Paragraph 3 prisoners in Dachau condemned to death who overcome tests which endanger their lives they should be pardoned, and then Brandt writes to Rascher and says please inform Rascher regarding the teletyped request that the decree of the Reichsfuehrer requesting the pardon of experimental subjects does not apply to Poles and Russians. Do you remember that?\nWe offer this as Exhibit 162. I trust I can get that number on something. 161, I guess it is. I will settle for one less. Your Honors, and I don't think the entire exhibit has ever been read so I will just read it into the record now, the first being a letter from Himmler to Rascher dated 13 April 1942. \"Dear Dr. Rascher, I want to answer your letter with which you forwarded to me your report.\n\"The latest discoveries in connection with your research have especially interested me. May I request of you the following.\n\"1. These experiments should be repeated with men condemned to death.\n\"2. I would like Dr. Fahrenkamp to take part in these experiments.\n\"3. Those experiments should above all be evaluated for the purpose of seeing whether it is not possible, through this long functioning of the heart, to bring such people back to life. Should such an experiment of bringing back to life succeed, then it is to be understood that the person condemned to death will be commuted to life-long imprisonment in a concentration camp.\n\"Please keep me informed of further progress of the experiments.\n\"Friendly greetings and Hail Hitler!\" Yours signed Himmler.\nThen a telegram from Rascher to Himmler \"Will you please clarify the following case with the Reichsfuehrer SS as soon as possible.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2951, "page_number": "2360", "date": "21 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-21", "text": "\"In communication RFSS of 1.4.42 it is ordered under paragraph 3 if prisoners in Dachau condemned to death overcome tests which endanger their lives, they should be pardoned. As up to now only Poles and Russians were available, amongst them also persons condemned to death, it is not quite clear to me yet whether the above mentioned paragraph also applies to them, and whether they after overcoming several very severe tests they may be pardoned to lifelong KZ.\" meaning imprisonment in a concentration camp. \"Beg for answer by teletype via adjutant's office RFSS Munich.\" It is signed respectfully, and then Brandt's reply to that of the 21 October 1942, dated at the top by 22 and 1942.\n\"Please inform SS-Untersturmfuehrer Dr. Rascher regarding his teletyped request that the decree of the Reichsfuehrer SS concerning pardoning of experimental subjects does not apply to Poles and Russians.\"\nThat concludes our offer of documents. Your Honor, we have one witness which we would like to call this afternoon.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Will that conclude your proof?\nMR. DENNEY:That will conclude our proof, yes, your Honor.\nDR. BERGOLD:Just one more word. May it please your Honors, I only have one question with reference to this exhibit which has now been submitted, namely to the letter of the 13th of April 1942, I would like to say the following. If it is necessary that I allso submit more evidence, you will remember that I always tried to prove that Rascher. carried out secret experiments in Dachau, upon Himmler's orders, and it says here under A No. 3, \"These experiments should above all be evaluated for the purpose of seeing whether it is not possible, through the long functioning of the heart, to bring such people back to life.\" We should hear Hippke on this matter, if such an order was ever given by the Luftwaffes, or if these secret experiments were the ones that I have looked for for a long time, that therefore I could prove that they were secret, namely that Rascher had special orders directly from Himmler. If the Tribunal tells me this, this exhibit would prove it sufficiently, then I do not need Professor Dr. Hippke any more.", "speakers": [ "MR. DENNEY", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2952, "page_number": "2361", "date": "21 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-21", "text": "THE PRESIDENT:The Tribunal is of the opinion that any farther evidence from Dr. Hippke on this point would merely be cumulative and that it has been sufficiently inquired into.\nDR. BERGOLD:Thank you.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Due to the late adjournment we will recess until two o'clock.\nTHE MARSHAL:This Tribunal is in recess until 1400 hours.\n(A recess was taken until 1400 hours.)", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2953, "page_number": "2362", "date": "21 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-21", "text": "AFTERNOON SESSION\nTHE MARSHAL:Tribunal No. II is again in session.\nMR. DENNEY:If Your Honors please, I ask that the Marshal be directed to summon the witness, Krysiak.\nJUDGE PHILLIPS:What language does he speak?\nMR. DENNEY:German.\nJOSEPHKRYSIAK, a witness, took the stand and testified as follows:\nBY JUDGE MUSMANNO:\nQPlease raise your right hand and repeat after me:\nI swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.\n(The witness repeated the oath.)\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:You will be seated.\nDIRECT EXAMINATION BY MR. DENNEY:\nQWhat is your name?\nAMy name is Joseph Krysiak.\nJUDGE PHILLIPS:Please spell that, Mr. Denney.\nBY MR. DENNEY:\nQWill you spell your last name?\nA K-R-Y-S-I-A-K.\nQK-R-Y-S-I-A-K, I believe it is; is that right?\nAYes, that is correct.\nQWhen were you born?\nAOn the eighth of May, 1911.\nQWhere were you born?\nAAt Dortmund.\nQAnd Dortmund is in Germany, is it not?\nAYes.\nQWhere did you go to school?\nAFirst elementary school at Dortmund, then secondary school, and for the last eight years I went to internes' schools in Switzerland at Freiburg.", "speakers": [ "JUDGE PHILLIPS", "A", "MR. DENNEY", "Q", "THE MARSHAL", "JOSEPH", "JUDGE MUSMANNO" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2954, "page_number": "2363", "date": "21 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-21", "text": "QAnd what was your profession?\nAI was a trained engineer and had a diploma in aircraft construction.\nQAnd when did you finish your schooling?\nANineteen-thirty-six, at Berlin-Charlottenburg.\nQAnd thereafter did you go to work?\nAI worked at the Focker works atAmsterdam, the Messerschmitt works at Augsburg.\nQWhat happened to you in 1940?\nAOn the ninth of December, 1940, I was arrested because of defeatist statements and anti-armed forces activities.\nQAnd where were you sent?\nAI went to the concentration camp at Mauthausen for political re-training.\nQAnd where is Mauthausen located?\nAOn the Danube.\nQNear what city?\nAIn the neighborhood of Linz, on the river Danube.\nQWhat did you do for the first several months of your internment at Mauthausen?\nAUntil 1942 all of us worked in the quarry.\nQWhat did you do in the quarry?\nAWe had to carry stones which had been broken, and we had to load them.\nQAnd then did you change your employment?\nAYes, from November '42, armament work was carried out in every concentration camp.\nQWhere did you go to work in November, '42?\nABeginning November, '42, the ME-109 was produced at Gussen I.\nQWhere was that?\nAIn Gussen, which was a branch camp of Mauthausen, Gussen I.\nQAnd you still lived in the concentration camp while you worked there?", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2955, "page_number": "2364", "date": "21 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-21", "text": "AYes.\nQDid you live in a stockade?\nAI was inside the camp, yes.\nQDid they have barbed wire around it?\nAThe camp and the place of work was surrounded by a chain of sentries.\nQAnd how would you describe the living conditions to the Court?\nALiving and working conditions were the worst imaginable --- bad they were. Regular working hours amounted to twelve hours, and we had a watery soup at lunch, and in the morning we had coffee, and at night seven men shared a loaf of bread.\nQHow were the living conditions?", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2956, "page_number": "2365", "date": "21 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-21", "text": "ALiving conditions were bad inasmuch as during this lack of food we had to work for twelve hours a day and we were beaten when we didn't reach the ceilings set for us.\nQNow, did these conditions continue until the end of the war?\nAYes. In fact, they increased during the approaching collapse.\nQNow, you say you worked at Gussen I, making the ME-109. Until when did you work there?\nAAt Gussen I, I worked until February 1944; then at Gussen II in the so-called case the 262 was begun, the jet fighter plane; and I worked on that jet fighter until the collapse.\nQNow, were there other concentration camp inmates with you who worked in these jobs at Gussen I and Gussen II?\nANo.\nQThere were no other concentration camp inmates who worked there?\nAOh, yes. Yes, the inmates of concentration camps after 1944 came from camps dissolved from the East; and all that was transferred to Austria. Consequently, there were many prisoners amongst those who had previously worked in other armament production programs.\nQNo, I don't think you understood my question. You say first you went to work in Gussen I?\nAYes.\nQIn November 1942?\nAYes.\nQWere there other concentration camp inmates besides yourself who worked there in the factory?\nAOh, yes. In Gussen I, working on the ME-109, there were 3500 prisoners working, working on fuselage and wing construction.\nQIn Gussen II how many concentration camp inmates were working in the factory?\nAAt the time of the collapse 4800 detainees and *00 civilian workers.\nQNow, among these concentration camp inmates, will you tell the Court what nationalities you found?", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2957, "page_number": "2366", "date": "21 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-21", "text": "AThere were all nations represented, among them Norwegians, Swedes, Dutchmen, Belgians, Frenchmen, Italians, Yugoslavs, all the Eastern peoples; and there were also Americans and British there.\nQYou say there were Americans and British in the concentration camp?\nAYes. Three Englishmen were with us in Gussen I; andAmericans who had been shot down above Linz were with us for a few days at Gussen. Then they went to the mother camp at Mauthausen.\nQDid you talk to these men?\nAYes, one of them had been shot down. He came to the sick bay; and we talked to him. He gave us the news that we, the inmates of concentration camps, had nothing to fear since all concentration camps had been marked on maps.\nQDid they ever have inspections of the factories?\nAYes. Between the end of 1944 and the collapse, one inspection would follow the other.\nQWhom did you see at these inspections?\nAObergruppenfuehrer Pohl, Gauleiter Eigruber, with his staff, and many people from the Air Ministry who came to check.\nQDid the conditions remain the same until the time of the collapse?\nAYes.\nQIncidentally, how many hours a day did you work?\nAWe were working at Saint George, Gussen II, for twelve hours.Also, the transport to and from work and back to this camp occupied two to three hours as well, so that these people altogether had only four to five hours sleep under the worst imaginable conditions. Four people had to sleep in one bed.\nQDid you work seven days a week?\nAYes, and the day and night shift, and Sundays, too.\nQYou've told the Court about the nationalities who were in the concentration camp with you. Were there any Jews there?\nAYes.\nQDid there come a time when they brought Jews in from Hungary?", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2958, "page_number": "2367", "date": "21 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-21", "text": "AYes. The largest transport arrived in 1944 from Budapest. There we were concerned mostly with the intelligentsia from the city of Budapest.\nQWhen was that in 1944?\nAI can't give you the exact date because one transport was following the other. It was in the summer of 1944.\nQYou spoke about some planes which were shot down in the neighborhood of the concentration camp. Will you tell the Court what you saw?\nAIn July 1944 there was an air attack on Linz; and during that air attack, a number of American aircraft were shot down. They were four-engine bombers. The crew bailed out; and they were caught and taken to the concentration camp.\nQWere there inspections by Luftwaffe officers prior to 1944?\nAYes, beginning with the day when part of the armament program was transferred to the camp and particularly when the Messerschmidt production started, we had inspections monthly.\nQThat was starting in November 1942?\nANo, really not until the spring of 1943 when mass production had not going.\nMR. DENNEY:I have no further questions.", "speakers": [ "A", "MR. DENNEY", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2959, "page_number": "2368", "date": "21 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-21", "text": "THE PRESIDENT:Witness, you spoke of American and British prisoners of war being in this concentration camp. Were any of those working in the armament factories?\nA.The Americans were up at Mauthausen, and Englishmen were at Gussen I. They were not directly used for armament work.\nQ.What did they do?\nA.The Englismen were working inside the camp, on camp work, and that varied.\nJUDGE PHILLIPS:What effect did this work and this food and those accommodations which you have described have upon you and other inmaters in the concentration camp?\nA.The most dreadful effect; the majority died in Mauthausen and Gussen II. It was a rule no one was released, but transports which were filled were where detainees would die.\nQ.Could you give me any estimate on how many died in the camp in which you were located while you were there?\nA.That would be difficult. I can only judge it according to the number of transports which arrived monthly; transports usually arrived from Ruschwits, from Holland and from France, and whenever any special action had taken place, and from the Balkans.\nQ.Here there other prisoners of war of other nationalities besides the Americans and British in that camp?\nA.You mean prisoners of war?\nQ.Yes, prisoners of war, yes?\nA.Yes, the Russians, and generally others, and the Yugoslavs.\nQ.Were they also working in the airplane factories?\nA.Yes, they had to work in the armament production.\nJUDGE PHILLIPS:That is all.\nCROSS EXAMINATION BY DR. BERGOLD:\nQ.Witness, you have explained to the Tribunal that you sent to a concentration camp?", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "JUDGE PHILLIPS", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2960, "page_number": "2369", "date": "21 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-21", "text": "A.Yes.\nQ.Did the SS take you straight into the concentration camp, or was there an intervening period?\nA.No, the Gestapo took me immediately on the day of the protection on an arrest order, which was a red ticket.\nQ.Did the Gestapo do that?\nA.Yes.\nQ.Witness, you have told us that in 1944 large transports arrived from the East?\nA.Yes.\nQ.When in '44 was this?\nA.It was the beginning of the Autumn of 1944. I think in October, these were larger transports.\nQ.Yes, I understand that. Witness, I did not quite understand when the Americans were captured. Was it June or July, or the 1st of July?\nA.Yes.\nQ.The seventh month?\nA.Yes, July 1944, during their attack on Linz.\nQ.By whom were these Americans taken to camp?\nA.It was after they had been shot down by aircraft guns, and they were taken to camp.\nQ.By whom?\nA.We were not present. We only saw them arrive in camp, since we could not walk outside the camp.\nQ.How many days did they stay in camp?\nA.They were in Gussen I two days, and then they went over to Mauthausen.\nQ.Do you know how long they remained at Mauthausen?\nA.No.\nQ.Do you know when they left there?\nA.No, I don't know.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2961, "page_number": "2370", "date": "21 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-21", "text": "QYou don't know, I see. You were talking about Englishmen too?\nAYes.\nQHow long were these Englishmen with you?\nAThey were there for eight months at Gussen.\nQWere they prisoners of war?\nAThey were listed as prisoners of war.\nQWhy did they go to a concentration camp, do you know that?\nAI am not absolutely certain, but there were rumors they would run away.\nQWitness, you were saying that there were inspections?\nAYes, that is correct, regularly.\nQWere there inspections taken on finished products?\nANo.Another commission came separately, and a certain Captain Frank from Regensburg was ahead of them.\nQAnd at these inspections, what did they inspect?\nAThey were mainly interested in raising the production, and getting more stuff out of the camp.\nQDid you talk to any members of this inspection group?\nANo, not before the trial -- before the collapse. In November 1944, I was confronted during a conference when such an inspection took place.\nQBut did any detainees from the camp talk to these inspectors?\nANo, they did not have a chance.\nQI don't quite understand the expression, \"They did not have a chance.\"\nAThey did not get in touch with these inspection parties.\nQSo the inspection party did not come to the detainees?\nAThey went through the camp, but no detainee would have dared to accost an official of the party, or an inspector.\nQSo you did not raise any complaint to any such inspecting official?\nANo, we could not and we were not allowed to do that.", "speakers": [ "A", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2962, "page_number": "", "date": "21 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-21", "text": "Q.Did you ever see the former Fieldmarshal Milch, who is sitting at the far end of this bench, during such inspection?\nA.No.\n2370 a", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2963, "page_number": "2371", "date": "21 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-21", "text": "Q.About how far was Gussen I and II away from Mauthausen?\nA.That is the next place from Mauthausen, which was ten or twelve kilometers.\nQ.Ten or twelve kilometers, I see. Was that where you slept at Gussen or did you sleep at Mauthausen?\nA.I slept at GussenI, Gussen I and II, first, usually Gussen I where the ME-109 was being produced, and later this subterranean factory was built and was established near Gussen II, and it was all a part of Mauthausen. The mother camp was Mauthausen.\nQ.Where were those motors that you were talking about at?\nA.The one I am talking about now?\nQ.These places of work I mean? At Mauthausen?\nA.No. The bunch you were talking about, they were at Gussen I and II.\nQ.Were they in factories outside?\nA.They were outside, factories of that camp.\nQ.In which camp was that, a special camp?\nA.There was a special camp for that.\nQ.You said that you had been beaten?\nA.Yes.\nQ.Who beat you?\nA.I can say with my regrets that the civilians were later on worse than the SS people; that is the Regensburg civilians coming from the ME-109 works in Regensburg, and also the foremen coming from the camp.\nQ.When did they come, the foremen?\nA.These foremen arrived when the production increased in the concentration camp.\nQ.And they went inside the camp?\nA.They were living in barracks outside the camps.\nQ.Until 1942 you worked in the quarry, you said?\nA.Yes, sir.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2964, "page_number": "", "date": "21 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-21", "text": "Q.How many hours did you have to work there a day?\nA.We had to work eight to ten hours a day, working for the Reichs Party.\n2371 a Rally, for which I had to break up stones.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2965, "page_number": "2372", "date": "21 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-21", "text": "Q.You mean, the \"Schwarzbide\"?\nA.Yes.\nQ.Well, that was really heavy work, wasn't it?\nA.Yes, we worked with heavy sledge hammers all day in breaking up stones. You can imagine what that meant, too, with this nourishment can't you.\nQ.Then the work at Mauthausen, apart from its duration, was that heavier than the factory or quarry work?\nA.Normally speaking under normal circumstances.\nQ.You can really apply it to any type of work, can you?\nA.No.\nQ.And what work did you do at Gussen?\nA.At Gussen I and II I was in the quarry, when they would blast the stones, and they were loaded into a truck and taken to the stone mason barracks.\nQ.I am talking about Gussen?\nA.We were working in the ME-109, and later on we were making wings, as well as working on the moving belt.\nQ.This work would normally be carried out elsewhere, wouldn't it?\nA.Yes, but under much different living conditions.\nQ.But it was normal factory work, actually?\nA.Actually, yes.\nQ.You said you had Swedes working with you?\nA.Yes, Swedes and some Swiss were also here.\nQ.Swiss?\nA.Yes, I remember we had a lot of Swiss.\nQ.How did they happen to come into a concentration camp?\nA.That I can not tell you. They were political detainees.\nQ.Were they not common citizens?\nA.I cannot imagine that but a lot of them were in the concentration camp nevertheless.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2966, "page_number": "2373", "date": "21 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-21", "text": "Q.But the Swedes and Swiss had not been occupied by our victorious armies.\nA.Yes, but they were in our concentration camp, some were block clerks and some were just working as Swiss and Swedes.\nQ.You said \"block clerks\" in the plant. They were supervisors and in the personnel, is that right?\nA.No, they had this administrative work, which they did.\nDR. BERGOLD:Thank you, very much.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Were you ever taken before a court, or given a hearing before being sent to a concentration camp.\nTHE WITNESS:No, simply arrested by the Gestapo.\nQ.You were simply arrested by the Gestapo, and the next thing that happened, you were in the concentration camp?\nA.Yes, and the reason given was political, re-schooling.\nTHE PRESIDENT:All right, that is as good as any indication.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO:What was the state of your health prior to your concentration camp experience?\nA.All I can say now is that I suffer from TB, and I am being medically treated, and this is what those five years did to me.\nQ.What was your condition before going to the concentration camp?\nA.I was active in sports, and I was a long distance runner. I can say my lungs were not affected at all.\nQ.You now are impeded in the normal enjoyments of life because of this infliction?\nA.Yes, without a question.\nQ.What was the exact nature of the deed which you committed, which brought to you your commitment to the concentration camp?\nA.It was a statement of a free opinion. Of course, I did not know that it would be interpreted the way it was.\nQ.Was it confined entirely to an oral utterance?\nA.Yes, not in a general question, it was a detailed statement I never thought in a discussion like that could lead to imprisonment in a concentration camp.", "speakers": [ "THE WITNESS", "Q.", "A.", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "JUDGE MUSMANNO" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2967, "page_number": "2374", "date": "21 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-21", "text": "Q.Had you taken up any physical opposition to the regime?\nA.That is a difficult question to answer. During my last life abroad in 1938 I had a lot of friends abroad, having been educated in Switzerland, and it is natural, of course, that you would hear a great deal, and then coming back to Germany you checked up, and one would try again and again to talk to people and to hear their opinions, too.\nQ.Then your offense was talking?\nA.Yes.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2968, "page_number": "2375", "date": "21 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-21", "text": "BY THE PRESIDENT:\nQWe are wondering what it was that you said that caused you to be sent to prison.\nA.First of all, in 1940, I was of the opinion and made the statement having come back from Berlin, that if American entered the war, we would lose it. I knew that, on the other hand, the South Eastern Army was being put together in Munich, and I was having my private doubts about that too. In connection with that, I spoke to one or another of my comrades about that, not knowing that one would go along and report everything to the Gestapo.\nQ.What did you say to your friends in Munich about the military situation?\nA.Until 1940 there was not much to say. We were always advancing. The Germany army was always advancing. Set-backs did not occur until the time I was in prison.\nQ.Well, then, first you said that it was your opinion that when America entered the war, that would be decisive against Germany?\nA.Yes, and conditions in Europe were coming to such a critical pitch that one day America would have to enter the war.\nQ.Well, did you in your talk advocate overthrowing the German government?\nA.No.\nQ.It does not seem that you said anything serious enough to be sent to a concentration camp. Was there anything else that you said?\nA.No, but if, for instance, you believed and said that Germany might lose the war, that was enough to be taken to a concentration camp or at least to go to a concentration camp for a length of time.\nApart from that, you must add in my case that later on I was speaking about that I was having qualms about metal alloys which in 1940 were not as good as they should have been in order to manufacture first line aircraft.", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A.", "Q" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2969, "page_number": "2376", "date": "21 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-21", "text": "QWell, you see, when you expressed the opinion that Germany was about to lose the war, you should have been a field marshal. Then nothing would have happened to you.\nAThat is something I don't know about.\nQNo.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Any other questions?\nMR. DENNEY:No further questions, Your Honor.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The witness may be excused.\n(The witness was excused.)\nMR. DENNEY:We have nothing further, Your Honor.\nTHE PRESIDENT:You mean that concludes the Prosecution's proof?\nMR. DENNEY:Yes, Your Honor.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Have you anything further, Dr. Bergold?\nDR. BERGOLD:No.\nTHE PRESIDENT:At 2:49 proofs are concluded. On Tuesday morning at 9:30 Counsel will be prepared to sum up. No shall recess until that time.\nTHE MARSHAL:The Tribunal is in recess until 0930 hours, Tuesday, 25 March.\n(The Tribunal adjourned until 0930 hours, 25 March 1947.)", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT", "MR. DENNEY", "Q", "A" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2970, "page_number": "2377", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "Official transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America against Erhard Milch, defendant, sitting at Nuernberg, Germany, on 25 March 1947, 0930 hours, Justice Toms presiding.\nTHE MARSHAL:Persons in the courtroom will please find their seats. The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal 2. Military Tribunal 2 is now in session. God save the United States of America and this honorable Tribunal. There will be order in the courtroom.\nDR. BERGOLD:May it please the Tribunal. In my opening statement I drew a picture of the defendant Milch which differs considerably from the description given by the prosecution. It is my hope that in the long course of producing evidence I have given proof that my conception that I have taken is as full truth.\nAccording to the testimony of the witness Richter, the affidavit of the witness Von Mueller, and according to the defendant Milch's own testimony, nobody can doubt that Milch has never been a good National Socialist. His love for peace and his longing for a final understanding between the nations of Europe, especially between Belgium, France, England, and Germany, became completely obvious. No one who believes in justice would refuse to believe him if he states that he regarded the war as a misfortune. He was also one of the few intelligent men to admit Germany's defeat in the First World War. There was no proof applied first in any way prior to 1933 that he supported any armaments. His testimony and military affidavit from Von Mueller have shown under his management the Luftwaffe was always a peaceful instrument of communication among the nations. It is to be regarded that the examination of foreign politicians, such as Van Zeeland, Pierre Cot, and Von Delbos, had not been permitted, because only then the personality of Milch would have been shown in its true light. He must have been a peaceful and just man; otherwise, all these statesmen would not have had confidence in him. Even the witness delegate Messerschmidt, whose affidavit Document 1960-PS was introduced in the International Military Tribunal proceedings, affirmed that Milch condemned the coercive methods of the Nazis. He was different from the other Party members, that after 1937 he lost Goering's confidence.", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2971, "page_number": "2378", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "At that time he asked to be allowed to retire but in spite of threat of suicide could not obtain that.\nSuch a man of such a past must be believed when he testified that even in 1939 he had no knowledge of Hitler's aggressive intentions. Milch had misgivings about Hitler because he regarded that measure taken against Czechoslovakia as a breach of peace, and he was sufficiently intelligent to see that Britain would no longer tolerate such violations. Hitler was dishonest with him and always introduced his intentions for peace known to him, even forbidding him the manufacture of bombs. The defendant never requested the manufacture of bombs because he intended to lead a war of offense, but only therefore because he was convinced that England, having the understanding of the international situation, would fight against the Nazi regime.\nUp to that time, Your Honor, nobody can find any inconsistency in the defendant's outlook. It was no offense if he requested the Wehrmacht for his country to fight the world's conflict, and therefore for that reason he favored a rearmament, and as long as all nations were peaceminded and maintained armies, Germany had the right to maintain armed forces as well. I beg you to remember that the defendant demanded from his superiors that rearmament should be effected in a slow and reasonable manner and that he had a difference in that respect.\nIt was not without reason, Your Honor, I repeat that. Only for one to keep all these things in mind will it be possible to judge whether or not the defendant's statement regarding the conference of 23 May 1939 is correct. A man who loves peace and works for peace was present at that conference and states today, or testified that his speech in question did not contain any mention of aggressive way against Poland or any other country. He even testified in this courtroom that this speech did not have the contents as it is laid down in the Schmundt Protocol.\nI realize that the International Military Tribunal came to the con clusion that the Schmundt Protocol is correct.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2972, "page_number": "2379", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "All defendants and witnesses which were heard at that time declared that the contents of the speech were not of so aggressive a nature as it is laid down in the minutes. The defense counsel made a mistake at that time of not calling all the witnesses which I requested. Nobody went to the trouble of critically examining the text of the record. I can already understand why the IMT reached a different conclusion, having heard the defendant's general objection, which remained unsubstantiated in detail. Nowhere has it yet been permissible in law to maintain the verdict of the previous court although new and better evidence has been given.\nThe witnesses Warlimont, Schniewindt, Engel, and Raeder stated that several passages of the Schmundt record contained a number of false assertions regarding Hitler's words. Warlimont testified that he was not present, although he is listed as among those present. Milch's testimony made it absolutely correct that Goering was not present. If there were only so few persons present and there were mistakes made concerning the presence of persons, the record must have been made up a long time after the event, because no faults of that kind would have been feasible. Schniewindt testified that a number of points contained in the Schmundt record were never discussed at that time at all. He had the opinion that many ideas laid down in the record were born out at a later period, that is to say, 1940. These ideas concerned for example the use which could be made of war production, after the defeat of France, the importance of aircraft carriers for convoys, the collaboration of Italy, and the break through the Maginot Line by this force, about Japan; last but not least, the so-called Fuehrer decree. By the statement of Felmys it is proved forever that the so-called Fuehrer order was given only on 12 December 1940. Even Raeder stated that the principles of the Fuehrer order were laid down at another occasion and that they were accordingly carried out afterwards. This other occasion was stated by the statement of Felmys. Also Raeder did not hear anything about Japan; he considered it impossible that Italy and the break through the Maginot Line were dis cussed and he also states that nobody mentioned a better production of cruisers.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2973, "page_number": "2380", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2974, "page_number": "2381", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "He also testified that in that meeting a two-front war was not mentioned, because he as an officer would have noticed that. Furthermore, he testified that Belgium and Holland were not referred to and that after the speech Goering did not open a debate. Even though the witness was not present at all times, it is rather strange that he should not have heard mention of any of the very points not heard either by the other witnesses. The defendant Milch gave you the precise details of those points of the speech which were not mentioned at the time, and he was even in a position to tell you when these various points were first conceived.\nWho, taking his responsibility with justice, can still seriously keep up the findings of the IMT now that these precise statements have shown us the errors of the Schmundt record. A record containing so many grave mistakes is no longer of probitive value and can never be made the basis for any judgment. I am convinced that after this trial the historians of the whole world will regard the Schumdt record as the product of a later period; i.e., between the fall of 1940 and the Spring of 1941 and that they will regard it as the result of time, drawn up to make Hitler, then regarded as the victor, seem possessed of a prophetic gift which in reality he never had.\nThe conference did take place on 23 May 1939; that is true. It's real topics, however, can no longer be stated on the basis of the Schmundt record. Thus, the statements made in the first Nurnberg trial gain a different and greater significance. Never again, therefore, will it be possible for anyone to say that on that occasion Hitler preached war and the enslavement of Europeans.\nThere is yet another argument possible against this record, which, it is alleged, also contains the plan for slave labor.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2975, "page_number": "2382", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "Document EC-109, Exhibit 8, and 016-PS, Exhibit 13, submitted by the Prosecution, show in all clarity the use of European peoples in German armament works was a measure forced by the emergencies of the war and that the idea was born and realized only by the military difficulties resulting from the war with Russia.\nWith clean hands and a pure heart, Milch entered the war in August 1939, having previously advised Goering to fly to Britain to avoid the war. He himself became the victim of Hitler's deception, and he himself believed that the war had been forced upon Hitler. Who can disregard justice to such an extent as to reproach Milch with having held that belief? It is his misfortune, but not his guilt, to have been deflected from the truth by misleading propaganda. Who would so misinterpret patriotism, heretofore regarded as one of man's noblest instincts, as to reproach Milch for having done in 1939 his duty as a soldier?\nHe had never prepared any aggressive wars. In every case he was informed shortly before the event, and nothing is more typical of the opinion his superiors held of him than the fact that he chanced to hear about the preparations for the war against Russia through a subordinate, who in turn had been told of Hitler's' plan before the Field Marshal was told. The first Nurnberg trial has already shown that Milch saw Goering at once in an effort to prevent that war. Goering himself admitted this. Milch's good intentions were of no avail because Goering turned him down. As Milch's superior officer, he even went so far as to forbid Milch to see Hitler and to tell him that he, Goering, would prevent Milch from being admitted to Hitler's presence.\nOne of Your Honors, in putting questions to the defendant, aimed to show that it might be regarded as incriminating to the defendant that he did not resign in 1941 or at least in 1943.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2976, "page_number": "2383", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "Your Honors, only if one has lived in Germany these last years is it possible truly to judge that problem. As I said in my opening speech, one can judge the man only against his background, through his upbringing, from which usually nobody can escape, no matter in what country he lives. Milch was brought up as a soldier. He absorbed ideas which for centuries were regarded as true and inviolate laws. It is not blamed for not having freed himself from them. I have said this once before.\nAt that time nobody in Germany was in a position to protest against certain events, against certain aims of the Party. All that one could do was to criticize things within one's own immediate circle and tell one's intimate collaborators how to improve matters. If in Germany anybody had attempted at any time to express criticism publicly, either by word or by publicly resigning, nobody would have been the wiser for it. This system was so ruthless and its stranglehold over public opinion so great, that it would and could suppress anything.\nYou need only remember that during the first IMT trial it was shown that von Papen's criticism in his Marburg speech was completely withheld from the German public. Had Milch done anything, nobody would have heard about it, and his action would have been useless, perhaps senseless, as nothing would have been changed for the better. Your Honors may not know that six to eight generals, including General von Falkenhausen, once commander in chief in Belgium, and Colonel General Halder, one of Germany's highest and best leaders, were thrown into concentration camps because they had deviated from Hitler's line. This is not connected with 20 July 1944.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2977, "page_number": "2384", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "Nobody in Germany knew about this. Pictures of General Count Spohneck were sold as a here two years after this man had vanished into a concentration camp. Such were the lies and the deceptions of Goebbels' propaganda. We have learned since the end of the war that prior to 20 July 1944 there were 50 to 60 generals in Moabit prison, without anyone in Germany knowing anything about that. You will understand the full falsehood of propaganda when you recall the base distortions by which the dismissals of Generals von Blomberg and von Fritsche were announced to the German public.\nBelieve me, Your Honors, protests in Germany were not possible at that time. The only result would have been the futile death of the protesting person. If Milch had attempted to fly abroad, his whole family -- such were the detestable methods of those in power - would have been put to death on the basis of what was known as Family Responsibility.\nNow can Milch be reproached with not having refused service and allegiance. No soldier could do this. Should an member of the Anglo-U.S. Air Forces suddenly have refused to go out on an operation which would bring death to innocent women and children, he would not have been regarded as a here. He would have been put before a courtmartial.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2978, "page_number": "2385", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "You would have accused Milch of not having participated in an attempt on Hitler's life. Although he was an energetic man, the defendant, was, because of several concussions of the brain which he suffered, inclined to terrifying fits of rage, or ranting speeches, but they have showed that in his heart of hearts he was kind and soft. Sentences passed he would ameliorate, and as the witness Richter testified he made up the fine which he inflicted himself by secretly passing to the family of the punished man a very large sum of money, larger than the fine itself. The witness Vorwald expressly stated that basically Milch was a man soft of heart who conducted himself as softhearted people would. He whose character is basically soft, who only in a rage caused by disease and worry utters harsh words, never followed by action, is not capable of murder. Thus, no just man will blame him for not having liquidated Hitler, and Milch did what in his conscience he felt to be possible and necessary. He had the courage of telling the dictator to his face what he thought of the situation. He demanded Hitler to desist from his plans, to dismiss the most important man, such as Goering, Ribbentrop and Keitel, to give up the supreme command and establish a cabinet of equal powers, and he finally desired that peace should be brought about.\nYour Honors, it would be easy to say that as a Field Marshal he did not thereby endanger himself. The statement of the next witness Krysiak, the fate of the generals which I mentioned to you, show what was done in Germany to men who did such things, but the defendant went one step further. He succeeded in inducing Goering also to demand the end of the dictatorship and the instituting of a Reich cabinet. Your Honors, this means that this defendant thereby risked his life. He could not foresee that nothing would happen to him. That nothing did happen to him was not due to his rank, but to Hitler's opinion to the effect that this man was not yet dispensable. Everybody can only be sentenced according to his potentialities. Your Honors must not compare conditions in your free and noble country to those in Germany. Only the German world as it then was should be the basis of your judgment here.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2979, "page_number": "", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "It is not true to say that Milch gave his continued support to the objectionable aims of the party. He continued to do his duty because as he testified 2385-A he wished to prevent the worst from happening to his people, the total destruction of the cities and of Germany's cultures.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2980, "page_number": "2386", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "It was his constant hope to organize the defense in such manner as to prevent bombing warfare from taking its full effect, that same bombing warfare which is the scourge of mankind, whatever one may think of its military value. Would it be for us to judge him in view of the fact that he did not obtain his aim because of the stupidity and failings of his superiors? Milch furthermore testified before you that by an improved defense he hoped to obtain better peace terms for his people. I can assure your Honors that since 1941 the Goebbels' propaganda told the German people time and again the horrible terms the enemy would impose on them in the event of peace. That included an item to the effect that the whole of the German male population would be castrated, should Germany lose the war, so that the German people would perish. Who has the courage to say that it is despicable for a man of battle to organize a defensive system under the news impact of such items in order to obtain better peace terms?\nIt would be a distortion that Milch thus believed Hitler's aim of destroying Europe for he knew that the war had been lost. He was intelligent enough to see that with the lost war the end of Hitler's ideology would come. It was not the party he wanted to serve when he hoped for loss severe peace terms as a result of a better defense, but he hoped for a lost war that would not mean the loss of the legal rights of a whole nation as is the case unhappilly today. Only he who comprehends and understands all these things can appreciate Milch's action and judge them fairly. And subsequently, when he saw that his objective of saving the German people from the world would fail, Milch withdrew from the regime. He could not resign of his own volition . That was an impossibility for a soldier in Germany. He did not choose to act dishonorably, which no one can expect from a decent man. In Germany, soldiers are removed from their offices only by their superiors. Thus, as he put it himself, Milch could only organize his own elimination from office by gradually transferring his task to Speer's ministry. As his superiors thereupon regarded him as superfluous and were glad to be rid of this man, Milch was finally free. Then began the scheme on the part of his superiors to liquidate him.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2981, "page_number": "2387", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "Such was the position of Milch the man, and such by and large were his motives. For him to have acted in this and no other way is not dishonorable, and only he can cast the first stone who never in his born days gave in to public opinion in defiance of his better judgment, who has never considered his superiors, and who proved himself to be above his upbringing, and had the courage of fighting for his convictions even with the most brutal methods.\nBefore dealing with the details of the indictment I should like to make these basic points. The Prosecution created the impression after all under the conspiracy count it would hold Milch responsible for everything in totality that was done in connection with labor assignments and experiments within the confines of the Luftwaffe, nay, within the confines of the German government departments. This is not admissible. The indictment may be referred to Control Council Law No. 10. Nothing is mentioned there that conspiracy to commit crimes against humanity or war crimes constitutes an offense. Only conspiracy against peace is punishable. The way the law is formulated, particularly Count 2 of Article 2, makes it clear beyond doubt that activities listed therein only concern participation but no independent types of crime. Where there is an independent crime then also in the case of war crimes and crimes against humanity there would have to be a provision similar in Count 1-A, Article 2 of the Control Council law where the crime is defined as \"participation in a common plan or conspiracy for the purpose of committing one of the crimes above set forth.\" In this connection the verdict of the I.M.T. must also be considered. The verdict states at the end of the sixth part of the verdict, \"Count One, however, charges not only the conspiracy to commit aggressive war but also to commit war crimes and crimes against humanity, but the charter does not define as a separate crime any conspiracy except the one to commit acts of aggressive war. Article 6 of the charter provides the leaders, organizers, instigators and accomplices participating in the formulation or execution of a common plan or conspiracy to commit any of the foregoing crimes are responsible for all acts performed by any persons in execution of such plan. In the opinion of the Tribunal these words would add a new and separate crime to those already listed.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2982, "page_number": "2388", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "The words are designed to establish the responsibility of persons participating in a common plan. The Tribunal will therefore disregard the charges in Count 1, that the defendants conspired to commit war crimes and crimes against humanity and will consider only the common plan to bring about, incite and wage aggressive war.\" And under Figure 8 the I.M.T. states further: \"As heretofore stated the charter does not define as a separate crime any conspiracy except the one set out in Article 6-A dealing with the crimes against peace.\" The verdict was so formulated because the charter was unclear at this point. As above stated the Control Council law contains no such provisions, so much the less because in this case conspiracy does not constitute a separate crime. The provisions of Article 2, Paragraph 2, No.6 state that whoever was connected with this planning or execution is guilty of a form of individual defense and cannot be acquitted with the concept of the common plan or conspiracy. Article 2 defines clearly the type of crime referred to in Paragraph 1, namely 1, the individual crime of violation of peace; 2, conspiracy against peace; 3, individual war crimes; 4, individual crimes against humanity, and finally the form of participation as laid down in Apt. 2 qualities, proof has been furnished herewith that a so-called conspiracy to commit war crimes and crimes against humanity is not punishable in the case of every man under indictment. It has to be examined therefore whether Milch made himself guilty of any individual type of participation. It would have to be shown that either as a principal or accessory he participated in a crime or that he especially ordered or initiated it. It would have to be proved that he gave his approval for a definite crime. That approval, however, cannot refer to a general approbation but such approval can only be considered as participation in crime if by his approval he strengthened and stiffened the criminal will of the perpetrators. It must therefore be made clear that he knew of the individual crimes and that he intended to put them into action by means of his approval. In that case his subsequent approval would not suffice. No one, as yet has been punished because of an inner or moral attitude. Finally it must be examined whether Milch was connected with the planning or commission of such crimes.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2983, "page_number": "2389", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "Here again it must be understood, of course, that this connection must be capable of causing the crime, and that Milch knew about the connection and therefore the crime. The question of membership in any organization or association which was connected with the execution of crimes requires special examination. It is clear that mere membership as such in any organization wherein any member may at one time have committed punishable act cannot make every other member of that organization punishable. Otherwise a monstrous situation would arise where the commander in chief of a large army was punishable if any member of that army committed a war crime. Where in this world in all time has it happened that in such a huge organization as wartime armies soldiers did not at one time or another commit punishable acts? This is inevitable and it occurs in all armies. It can therefore only by a question here whether the organization or the association of which the defendant was a member had as its particular purpose the commission of war crimes or crimes against humanity.\nLetterF ofArticle 2, Paragraph 2. This will be considered here. Since Milch is not charged with a crime against peace it would also have to be especially proved that he participated in the common plan of conspiracy for the commission of crimes against the peace. That he held high office can not of its own make him punishable. This is also evident from the Tribunal of the I.M.T. who acquitted three persons who equally held high office in Germany.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2984, "page_number": "2390", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "Bearing in mind these points of view one has to examine the individual counts of the indictment. In answer to the prosecution's charge that Milch in February 1944 had ordered two Russian officers to be shot, Exhibit Milch 40 to 44, and the testimony of the witness Vorwald have proven that the said officers were shot on the basis of an express order by Hitler who received, through political channels, the report of the incident earlier than Milch. Exhibit Milch 40 to 44 and the testimony of Vorwald have made it clear that Milch, first of all, had no possibility of issuing such an order, and secondly, that he did not cause it's being ordered, and thirdly, that ho only gained knowledge of the incident after the officers had been shot.\nThe witness Vorwald was in a position to testify that Milch even angrily protested against such an order.\nThe passage in the record of the 53d meeting of the Central Planning Board of 16 February 1944, also contained in Exhibit Milch 10, can therefore not be made the basis for a judgment. Whoever, knowing the German languages, reads the text critically must realize that the utterances of Milch recorded therein are contradictory in themselves and therefore cannot possibly contain the real statements made by Milch. They are contradictory to the true course of events; they are contradictory to Milch's real authority, and finally, they are contradictory to the inner attitude of the defendant who himself angrily describes this act as a crime when speaking to the witness Vorwald.\nIt is significant for the question of the probative value of all verbatim records submitted to consider that such recording of the true events is found here. Records containing such mistakes cannot be made the basis for a judgment. If we assume, however, that Milch really made these utter ances which are so wrong, then this passage would remove all doubt that Milch during moments of excitement was no longer master of his thoughts and words and therefore cannot be held responsible for then.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2985, "page_number": "", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "It would be a serious offense against justice, however, if judgment was to be pronounced on the basis of such stenographic notes taken by an unknown person who may have been in error.\nMilch is furthermore accused of having abetted, participated in and been 2390(a) connected with cruel and inhuman experiments carried out on concentration camp inmates at Dachau.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2986, "page_number": "2391", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "I believe that here too, evidence has shown that Milch is innocent. It has been proved by the clear, although long-winded, deposition of the witness Hippke that the defendant had heard for the first time on the 31st of August 1942, that human experiments were being carried out on others than volunteers from the Luftwaffe; that is, at a moment when the high-altitude experiments were already completed and when the freezing experiments too were about to be completed.\nIn this connection I recall that the final report on freezing experiments was available in print already on 10 October 1942, so that these experiments too must have been completed at a considerably earlier time. On 31 August 1942, the defendant learned merely from Hippke that human experiments had been carried out on criminals who had been sentenced to death and who had volunteered in order to obtain a pardon. He was told expressly that nothing had happened so far during these experiments. It is obvious that experiments as such, do not in themselves constitute an offense against humanity, whether or not they are in use in some foreign countries. At any rate much evidence has already been submitted by the defense in the medical trial proving that also in democratic states of the world, experiments have been carried out and are being carried out on volunteering criminals, experiments which constitute a danger to the life and health of the experimental subject.\nThe prosecutor has submitted in evidence his last exhibit, Exhibit Number 161, showing irrefutably that Himmler too had ordered that only men sentenced to death are to be used for these experiments. Hippke did not even misinform Milch. That, besides the experiments which were of importance to the Luftwaffe, Himmler had also started secret experiments, is shown from this very Exhibit 161, because therein Himmler directs Rascher to continue these special experiments on which he had reported to him, and even to carry out revival experiments.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2987, "page_number": "", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "Both witnesses Ruff and Romberg have testified unanimously that nothing has happened during these experiments. Death casualties had occurred during Rascher's own experiments which he carried out on Himmler's behalf. Only 2391 a the aim of these experiments remained unclear to the witness, which is now being clarified by Exhibit 161, but Milch had no knowledge of all this.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2988, "page_number": "2392", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "He fully believed what Hippke told him, nor did he ever have any cause to distrust Hippke and he could not distrust him more as he knew that high-altitude experiments had already previously been carried out on Luftwaffe personnel of his own Air Force without any danger being involved. Not even Hippke has had knowledge of cruelties and death casualties. How much less can be proven that the defendant could have had any knowledge. It does not say anything against the defendant that he had signed already before 31 August 1942 some letters which had been submitted to him by his offices. Nobody has been able to state that Milch had dictated these letters at all. It could not even be proved that he had seen or read the letters from the SS to which these letters refer. It is impossible for a man who has had such a burden of work and such a large sphere of tasks as the defendant had to take care of every trifling matter in his office, that these letters which to anybody who has no knowledge of the underlying facts appear harmless and unimportant could also not arouse the defendant' s suspicion. Should he be charged with responsibility for them then, this would be a responsibility which could not be borne by anybody. This would mean to overestimate human working capacity. It is the very idea of any great organization to relieve the chiefs or the heads of attentions to details in order to make them free for the main tasks. If such a man were to be asked to take care of everything, then the organization would be unsuccessful and no man in the world could form a great work comprising many people, and no man in the world would be willing to head such an organization if the chief of the organization should be held responsible for everything that his subordinate agencies commit. Everybody has the right generally to trust his subordinates as long as he has no reason to distrust them.\nHippke's descriptions were unimpeachable and gave no reason for misgivings His tenure of office at that time was irreproachable so that Milch had not to distrust Hippke's activities and all the less so because already at an earlier date human experiments had been carried out by the Luftwaffe in a manner above reproach.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2989, "page_number": "2393", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "Milch has testified to the effect that he had not read the report on high-altitude experiments. Evidence has shown that he has not seen the film nor could he have caused for this film to be shown; else he would have attended the presentation, but he was not even in Berlin on that day; therefore, he could not become suspicious from what occurred. Likewise Milch never received the report on freezing experiments, nor did he ever get a final report on this matter.\nFinally, Milch had no reason to distrust the fact that the SS participated in the experiments. He knew that Hippke was part of it and was therefore entitled to believe that everything would be in order. Therefore, Milch was neither a principal in nor an accessory to, nor has he ordered or instigated these experiments. He has never given his consent to the crimes committed because he had no knowledge whatsoever of them nor was he connected with their planning or their execution, nor was he a member of any organization aiming at the commission of such crimes. This is not the aim of the Luftwaffe to carry out such criminal experiments, and with the DVL he had nothing to do at all. It is irrelevant that at that time Rascher was a member of the Luftwaffe. Exhibit 161 proves that Rascher received the orders to execute the crimes as a member of the SS from Himmler himself, and also carried them out in that capacity. Finally, it must be said that the Wolff letter of November, 1942, was only written after the crimes were committed. It has not been proved that Milch ever saw this letter. He was not in Berlin when the letter arrived. That he has testified. The letter was sent to the medical Inspectorate which only answered it in 1943, as Hippke has testified.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2990, "page_number": "", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "Also, the fact that Rascher was transferred to the SS had nothing to do with the defendant. That was a matter settled outside of his competency. The personnel chief of the Luftwaffe was at no time subordinated to him, and it must also be taken into consideration that according to the evidence Milch had no knowledge of Rascher's having committed any crimes. One can not charge Milch with the fact that Rascher referred to him. The testimony of Neff and Exhibit Milch 55, the affidavit of Punzengruber, have shown to this Tribunal 2393 a that Rascher was a confirmed liar whoso statements have no probative value and therefore, I believe that Milch in this matter too has shown to this tribunal his complete innocence.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2991, "page_number": "2394", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "Before I go into the charges against Milch for his participation in the so-called slave labor program, I must make a few fundamental statements. I shall begin by examining the question as to what extent the Hague Convention on land warfare and the Geneva Convention of 1929 were valid for the treatment of Russian prisoners of war. By the statements of witness von Neurath it has been confirmed that the U.S.S.R. in 1919 specifically withdrew from the Hague Convention on land warfare as well as the former Geneva Convention. Jurists will not dispute the fact that a formal withdrawal from agreements is of greater importance in the relations between states than the act of joining such a convention.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2992, "page_number": "2395", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "Even if one were of the opinion that the Hague Convention on Land Warfare and the Geneva Convention represented merely the codification of already existing international law, so that also the state that did not join the conventions would be bound to this already existing international law in all details, even in such a case the expressly stated withdrawal from such a convention must mean also a withdrawal from the natural international law. If this were not the case, the withdrawal from such conventions would be an act without meaning which so intelligence politicians as those to be found in the USSR would never undertake. Nor is this conception of mine contradicted by the expert opinion offered in the first Nuernberg trial (Canaris Document No.EC-338) because this expert opinion is only concerned with the order of Hitler and Keitel regarding the killing and cruel treatment of prisoners. It is of course clear that inhumane acts do not become permissible even though withdrawing from a convention. What we must examine here, however, is purely the question whether or nor, and for what activities, such prisoners of war may be used. Detailed regulations of international law, which in themselves do not contain atrocities, can, in my opinion, be nullified by expressly withdrawing from a convention codifying existing international law. Finally, we wish to draw the attention to Article 82, Paragraph 2, of the Geneva Convention of 1929 which contains the following regulation: \"If in wartime one of the belligerents is not a member of the convention the regulations of this convention remain valid, nevertheless, for the belligerents who have signed the convention.\" This does not mean that the signatories are bound to the Geneva Convention also with regard to the treatment of soldiers of a non-signatory power, but only with regard to soldiers of the signatories who are at war. Article 82, paragraph 2, of the Geneva Convention, therefore, states that with regard to the relations of nonsignatories the convention is not valid. The regulation was made so that it should not be thought that if a non-signatory participated in the war the Geneva Convention would not apply to that war.\nThat my opinion was shared by the USSR becomes clear beyond doubt from Exhibit Mi 49 presented by me, which contains the decision of the Council of the Peoples Commissioners of the USSR of 1 July 1941.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2993, "page_number": "2396", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "This decision does not mention any limitation with regard to the use of prisoners of war for labor except for the regulations under Number 25. According to this, prisoners of war may not be used as workers in the battle zone, nor for the personal needs of the administrations, or by other prisoners of war (orderly services). Exhibit Mi 51 concerning employment of German women prisoners of war in Russia also reveals the same conception of the USSR.\nThe objections that not Russia's conception but that of the United States of America matters here is not justified. Existing regulations between two states can only be judged on the legal relations valid for those two states. If both states regulate a given question in agreement with conclusive acts in the same way, that regulation becomes international law valid for the relations of those two states and must be taken into consideration by all other states. It is the right of sovereign states to regulate their relations as they wish. Other states have no right to interfere in the right of sovereignty and they must acquiesce in the legal conception existing between those two states regarding any issue concerning their citizens. Therefore, legal opinions of another state must not be taken as a basis for the judging of actions which occurred between the nationals of these two states.\nAs in Milch's sphere of competency Russian prisoners of war were used neither at the from nor as orderlies, he cannot be found guilty so far as the treatment of Russian prisoners of war is concerned.\nAll this also applies to the treatment of the Russian civilian population whose rights could have been cared for by the Hague Convention for Land Warfare alone. Here, too, Russia's express withdrawal from the convention is of great importance.\nIn my opinion it cannot be argued that Germany attacked Russia and that, for that reason, employment of the civilian population would be illegal even if this were not illegal in itself. That alone would mean that Germany would be bound to the regulations and that Russia was not.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2994, "page_number": "2397", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "From the point of view of international law this is an impossible situation. For two belligerent states there cannot be a different international law.\nMoreover, the validity of the regulations laid down in the Hague Convention for Land Warfare can be canceled by a special factor which precludes lawlessness. In all codes of law of the civilized world the law of so-called emergency situations exists. This conception of law must also be applied to international law. That Germany was in an emergency situation in that sense that the use of the civilian population for labor in the occupied territories was only caused by the emergency situation, I have shown in detail a little while ago. Modern war means total war and as such has suspended, in several points, international law as it existed up to now. It is uncontested that according to the Hague Convention for Land Warfare actions of combat against the civilian population are forbidden. Moder air warfare, having as its aim total annihilation of armament and production of the enemy, brought with it to a great extent warfare against the civilian population without any of the belligerents regarding such combat actions as forbidden according to the Hague Convention on Land Warfare. This also applies to the total blockade of a country which aims at starving the population of that country. These comprehensive ways of waging war which hit all classes of the population permit, in my opinion, to a state which is at war, especially on account of the fact that its civilian population is brought into the strife, to use for its purposes labor from occupied countries so as to maintain its production and armament.\nConcerning the relations of the other nations involved in the war there is no doubt that for the above the Hague Convention on Land Warfare and the Geneva Convention of 1929 are valid. But it is just as clear that it is left to the nations to change and abolish these regulations by special agreements between one another. A good example here is the Armistice Treaty signed in 1944 between the Russian and Roumanian governments according to which Roumania had to pledge itself to put at the dis posal of Russia a large number of people for reconstruction purposes.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2995, "page_number": "2398", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "Complying with this agreement, in January 1945 many thousand members of the Roumanian state were deported to Russia by compulsion and against their will. This case shows what, in such matters, may be legal and valid. Moreover, that agreement was made under some force of bayonets, as in all history is usually the case with every treaty between a conquered and conquering state. The Exhibit Mi 47 proves that in the case of Germany the Control Council (see Section VI, Number 19, of the Proclamation No. 2) imposed on the German authorities even without a treaty, simply based on unilateral orders, the same obligation, i.e., to put at disposal labor for personal services inside and outside Germany. That such orders could naturally only be fulfilled by the German authorities by means of a labor service law will not be contested by anybody.\nThese one-sided orders given by the victor to the vanquished, whether they be issued on the basis of an armistice brought about by force of arms or on the basis of command or law following the unconditional surrender of a state, are not contrary to law.\nIt should, therefore, be stated that the rules of the Hague Land Warfare regulations can be suspended between two states. I have given proof for the fact that there were between Germany and France agreements whereby the French population had to make themselves available for work in Germany, first, by volunteering, and later, on the basis of a law for compulsory labor issued by the French government. No restrictions were laid down to what extent and for what purpose these people were to be employed.\nThe objection has been raised that the Vichy government was a government of traitors, but it was that government which concluded the armistice with Germany, and throughout the war all Frenchmen, including those in De Gaulle's camp, would raise passionate protests when they thought that one of its articles had been violated. Thus, they all acknowledged that an armistice could be concluded, and was concluded. Once you acknowledge the existence of an armistice agreement, you cannot, logically or legally, deny the legality of the government which has concluded the armistice.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2996, "page_number": "2399", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "You must eat your cake as it is and you must not pick out the plums alone.\nAs for the situation in Holland and Belgium, both those countries surrendered unconditionally.\nAccording to international law Germany was, therefore, in a position in its dealings with the authorities of these countries to regulate the labor commitments of the civilian population unilaterally in the same manner as this has now been handled in regard to the German population by the Control Council.\nAs far as Poland is concerned, that country, on the basis of the partitioning agreement between Russia and Germany, had lost its sovereignty. That such partitioning agreements can abrogate the existence of a state has already been historically proven by the former partitioning agreements of the bordering countries in regard to the Polish state. Moreover, the agreements concluded between the victorious nations after this war have abrogated the sovereignty of the German state over very large areas in the East and thus have created new sovereignty for the population of these territories.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2997, "page_number": "2400", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "Germany released the Polish prisoners of war and could at any time issue legal labor directives as regards the Polish civilian population since the latter were under German sovereignty. So far as the Italian prisoners of war are concerned, the evidence has shown that the Mussolini government, which at the time was the covenant government in that part of Italy not occupied by the allied forces, made then available for work in the armament industry, especially after Germany had to manufacture armaments for Mussolini's Italy.\nTestimony of Vorwald. Here it should also be mentioned that Milch's opinion that Italian prisoners of war who fled from a transport should be shot does not mean a cruelty. All countries of the world have prisoners shot who attempt to escape, as proved by me in Exhibit MI 26. So far as the civilian population of other southeastern states are concerned, they were only recruited and employed as free workers based on approval by the legally existing governments of these countries.\nIn addition, it is interesting to point out that the agreement between France and Germany, according to which France was supposed to allocate French civilians for the labor commitment in exchange for the release of prisoners of war, had a parallel in the discussion of the question regarding the fate of German prisoners of war still in allied countries. In France, in particular, the request has been made to make possible the release of German prisoners of war by making available German civilians as workers in Place of the prisoners of war. This, too, is evidence to the effect that such an agreement is not contrary to international law.\nThat, Your Honors, is the legal position as I must present it.\nMay I propose, Your Honors, to recess now. Otherwise I would have to interrupt a long passage.\nTHE PRESIDENT:We will now take a recess.\nTHE MARSHAL:This Tribunal is in recess for fifteen minutes.\n(A recess was taken.)", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2998, "page_number": "2401", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "THE MARSHAL:Tribunal 2 is again in session.\nDR. BERGOLD:In regard to the question of guilt, a special point has still to be considered. All legal theories consider that the defendant is not liable for punishment if after careful consideration and careful inquiries he has gained the conviction that his action was permissible. It has been shown that in Germany prisoners of war and foreign civilians were being employed within the war production even at the time when Milch had not yet taken over the office of the GL. In other words, he was already confronted with the situation, the exploitation of which he is being reproached for today.\nThe testimony of the witness Vorwald and that of the defendant himself showed that Milch made inquiries from the competent authority as to whether the employment of prisoners of war and foreign civilians which he found in existence was admissible under the then prevailing regulation. He has testified here that he received an affirmative answer. Furthermore, he testified that the admissibility of the utilization of foreign civilian workers was discussed soon after the first World War in an investigation staff committee of the German Reichstag. The chairman of that investigation committee was Prof. Dr. Schucking, a legal authority of repute, who had become known throughout the world as a passionate champion of pacifism and democracy. This committee, as the defendant gathered from the discussions held at the time, could not and did not find that employment of foreign civilian workers in armament industry was inadmissible.\nImpressed by his earlier experience, the defendant has the right to believe the information given to him by his superior office that employment of foreign manpower and of prisoners of war was admissible. Moreover, this information was not issued without reason. The reasons given for it were rather in accordance with the reasons which I have described in detail above. How should Milch, who is not a legal expert, who as a layman did not understand anything about applicable international law, how could he form a different opinion?", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 2999, "page_number": "2402", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "It is the right of every citizen to believe the legal information supplied by his superior and the concomitant authorities, for no one can impose upon a citizen the duty to undertake on his own accord an examination of the legal questions involved. In a modern state this would result in an untenable situation whereby everyone of the citizens would acquire his own conception of the law.\nDissenting opinions from abroad Milch was not in a position to hear since he was not allowed to read foreign newspapers nor listen to foreign broadcasts, nor did he do so.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3000, "page_number": "2403", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "He acted in good faith, and this has to be considered in his favor today, the more since he knew and may well assume that these measures were only temporary, and were brought about irresistibly by the necessities of war.\nTHE PRESIDENT:May I interrupt you a minute. Is it a principle of the German Law that ignorance of the law is an excuse for its breach? Is it a principle of the German Law -- can you hear me now?\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes. Excuse me.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Can you hear me now?\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Is it a principle of the German Law that ignorance of the law is an excuse for violating it?\nDR. BERGOLD:It is a principle inasmuch as if somebody has been misled by his superiors on the significance of the law. Everybody must inquire of what the law is, but if his superior authorities had given him certain information, he can rely on that.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Suppose a person is advised by his own counsel as to the law, and counsel is wrong, does that excuse the client?\nDR. BERGOLD:The client's lawyer is not considered to be a sufficient authority, it must be a governmental authority.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Well, suppose a high government official, a man in high authority who was not a lawyer advised his subordinate as to his legal rights and duties, and that advice was wrong?\nDR. BERGOLD:That would mean that there would be an excusable error, an excusable legal error.\nTHE PRESIDENT:You mean then, and it is your position that if Goering, for example, had told Milch that it was his legal right to go out and shoot a person without a hearing, or a trial, that Milch would be justified legally in doing that?\nDR. BERGOLD:I did not get it, Your Honor. Would you repeat it, please.\nTHE PRESIDENT:If, for example, Goering, who was a person in high authority, advised Milch that he had the legal right to go out and shoot a person, that would be justification for Milch doing so, legally?", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3001, "page_number": "2404", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "DR. BERGOLD:No, because the question of whether you can commit a murder or not is settled for everybody, but the point as to whether the employment of foreigners was admissible under the International Law, that this is a very tricky legal point, and there, of course, there is a difference.\nTHE PRESIDENT:You mean that every one is supposed to know that he cannot shoot a man.\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes, everybody knows that.\nTHE PRESIDENT:But everyone is not supposed to know that he can force a man to unwilling labor?\nDR. BERGOLD:No, he is not obliged to know that. That is why Milch applied to receive this information about International Law.\nTHE PRESIDENT:You make a distinction between homicide and slavery?\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes, I make a difference not, perhaps, in this exact example, but I make a difference between the natural knowledge of law, which everybody has, and special questions and special knowledge not shared by everybody in the State. The point whether you can kill or steal is common knowledge, but the question whether International Law permits the employment is not something which everybody knows. This question was only what specialists and legal experts can decide, and, if any man concerned tries to receive information whether this is permissible, and obtains that information from a specialist of a governmental department who says, yes, then it does not become permissible in itself, but then we have what is known as an excusable legal error.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Would you take the same position as to enforced civilian labor?\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes, on the question if it is permitted at all to employ someone, foreign workers or prisoners of war.", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3002, "page_number": "2405", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "THE PRESIDENT:I would like to get this straightened out.\nDR. BERGOLD:There are a number of other difficult legal points which I need not go into here. This is certainly an example of what occupies us here.\nTHE PRESIDENT:That is true. I want to get your position perfectly clear. I think it is -\nDR. BERGOLD:Let's assume, for example, the question in any foreign country which you occupy you may issue occupation money; let's assume that was punishable according to some International regulation, which would be difficult to interpret, and a layman is not in a position to know that. Supposing the Government-General of an occupied country, for instance, applies to tho Reichsbank, with the question what is permitted, then the government would know and the occupied country would then concede to the regime a knowledge of which it is not guilty.\nTHE PRESIDENT:No, that theory of law becomes a very uncertain guide, does it not? It depends upon interpretation of not the lawyers, nor the professors, but of high government officials, they make the law.\nDR. BERGOLD:No, my client tries to receive information from, so far as your point is concerned, let's say, the legal department, or from the Ministry which has its legal department, or of both the Reich-air Ministry and also the Wehrmacht itself, or from the head legal experts who were specially trained, and I draw your attention -\nTHE PRESIDENT:Just a minute. Then the head legal experts make the law as far as the defendant is concerned?\nDR. BERGOLD:No, no, he did not make the law but he tried to, and that is, of course , the legal error that -\nTHE PRESIDENT:He makes the law by which the defendant may govern himself?\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes, for this special case, as long as he does not hear an opinion to the contrary, let's assume.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Oh, what happens after he does hear the opinion to the contrary, then which law does he abide by?", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3003, "page_number": "2406", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "DR. BERGOLD:In that case he can act no longer at all. If he acts, he acts on what is known as the term applies from the Roman Law, that is, to say, \"Eventual delus,\" an evil intention in the case of his being opposed by the law. I assume that the term \"Eventual delus\" is known to your country, too.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Supposing that he gets two conflicting opinions from the legal ministry, or one of the legal advisers in a high place tells him he may do a thing, and another in an equally high place says he may not, how does that solve the dilemma?\nDR. BERGOLD:In that case he must not commit the act, because his attention has been drawn to the difference in the legal opinions, and that is where we have the \"Eventual delus\". If he does not depend on it, and does it on his own risk, then with that risk he made a wrong.\nTHE PRESIDENT:I am frank to say that this is a new and startling legal theory. Did you understand that?\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes, I understood.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Well, we have your position.\nDR. BERGOLD:I shall continue: His good faith, however, was reinforced by the fact that all the measures against English and American prisoners of war, which are being objected to, were not carried out. That the reasons expressly stated for this were that no agreement except a change in the regulations had been conveyed normally to the British and American prisoners of war. Whoever has the least psychological insight will understand that by observing the Geneva Convention principles towards those two countries must have made it appear to the defendant as applicable towards other countries, all the more as this deviation had been based on presence of other agreements, or the lack of other protective measures.\nAs far as the question of actual recruiting, and using of manpower is concerned, a differentiation must be made between recruiting, bringing foreign laborers to the country, and their treatment on the whole on the one hand, and on the other hand their employment within Germany the labor assignment.", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3004, "page_number": "2407", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "May it please the Tribunal, the case in chief, and the submitted documents of the Prosecution, especially the documents Exhibits Nos. 13, 14, 14-A, 15, 15-A, and 17 had eliminated any doubt as to the fact that Sauckel alone was competent for the recruiting of foreign laborers and their transport to Germany, and for the treatment of the foreign workers, and that Hitler over and over again confirmed against other attacks, that Speer was the only competent man.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3005, "page_number": "2408", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "Not one single document has been submitted which would show that Milch participated in the recruiting, transfer to Germany and treatment of the workers. The witnesses Speer, Koerner, Richter, Hertel, Eschonauer, Pendale, Vorwald, as well as Milch himself, have testified under oath that neither they nor the defendant knew anything about all the abuses which have become evident in the sphere of Sauckel's work.\nI call your attention to Exhibit MI-3, which reveals how Sauckel always and everywhere emphasized that he took care of the foreign workers to the best of his ability. In this exhibit he makes the assertion that foreign workers have never in the history of the world been treated as well as they were treated by him in this most severe of all wars. The testimony of the witness Schemtler and of Milch has shown that Sauckel had made the same declarations and told the same lies to them also. There is no need for any further statement to the effect that the recruitment and even the forced transport of the workers into the Reich on the basis of an order could have been carried out in an absolutely humane manner and that all these atrocities, murders, and tortures which took place need not have occurred. Such actions are not of necessity connected with such events. The fact that in the East and in France parts of the population were called up and drafted by classes by means of Labor Service decrees could not and did not have to make Milch suspicious. Forced drafting of people occurs in all countries which have a compulsory military service or labor service. Examples of the latter are Germany and Bulgaria. The latter state had ordered service according to each group before the Hitler regime existed, and how could Milch, after all, have found out about the inhuman acts in the recruitment and transport into the Reich and the treatment within the Reich? Obviously, only if he had observed such incidents himself or if complaints reached him through his subordinates or through these foreign workers themselves.\nMilch testifies here in a creditable manner that during the entire course of the war he had never observed such conditions. During all these years he made his trips by plane and, in some exceptional cases, by special train; that in this way he could naturally not observe such facts is quite clear.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3006, "page_number": "2409", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "The witnesses have confirmed that they never reported abuses to him. The only thing he heard were isolated complaints that the food was inadequate at times or that there was a lack of clothing and shoes. In themselves, these were conditions which resulted at the time from the wartime emergency and applied also to the German civilian population. All of the above mentioned witnesses and Milch have, however, confirmed that Milch on his own part immediately ordered that the conditions should be remedied.\nThese incidents, however, cannot be called inhuman acts or atrocities, cannot be called crimes. The witnesses Pendele, Hertel and Vorwald, as well as the defendant himself, have testified that the foreign workers never brought any complaints to the defendant. They all expressed their happiness. It may be that they were afraid of complaining to Milch. That, however, was not Milch's fault. He had the right to believe the assurances of the persons he questioned, the more so because his conversations with them were carried out in the friendliest, even the most cheerful, manner.\nNow, how could Milch have found out about these incidents? I have already mentioned that he could not obtain knowledge about that from foreign reports, because he did not receive such reports. Thus, it should be established that Milch was not responsible, first, for the directive for the so-called slave labor; secondly, the recruitment of manpower; third, the inhumane acts perpetrated in connection with this, fourth, the transport to Germany, and the crimes connected therewith, and finally, fifth, the treatment of foreign workers in Germany and the atrocities committed in connection therewith. He knew nothing at all about it. He did not commit these crimes; neither as a principal nor as an accomplice. He neither ordered such crimes nor instigated them. He did not take a consenting part in them either. On the contrary, he always eliminated minor abuses and constantly saw to it that the conditions of the foreign workers were ameliorated by special gifts. He was in no way connected in a causative manner with the planning or execution of these crimes, and here I refer you to my earlier legal statement, for he would have had to know about it, that such atrocities, murders, and other inhumane occurred in connection with the recruitment, transfer to Germany and treatment within Germany if he is to be held responsible for them.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3007, "page_number": "2410", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "Neither did he belong to the organization which was connected with the recruiting, transport and treatment, namely, the Organization Sauckel. If at all, he could be charged only with the exploitation of foreign workers.\nNo just man who values that name can by virtue of knowledge subsequently acquired condemn the actions which a defendant committed at an earlier time in ignorance of what later became known. Today the whole world is full of the horrors which have been brought to light. It is not true, however, that those horrors were desired by the supreme leadership. That Sauckel acted independently here and that he alone bears the guilt is shown by Exhibit MI-3, in which Sauckel lied to Hitler, saying that workers had never been treated so well as by him.\nI do not wish to defend Hitler. As a German, I myself have every reason to raise the most bitter and serious charges against the man whose account of guilt can never be paid up, but here it must be said that Hitler could hardly have included the commission of atrocities and murders in his plan for the foreign workers, for if that had been the case, Sauckel would not have had to lie as he did. Then he would not have had to pretend to his lord and master that he was treating the foreign workers so well. Such lies, such deceit, are practised only by the subordinate who is aware that he has violated instructions and that he can be punished by his superior.\nExhibit MI-32 shows clearly that in two cases Sauckel acted against Hitler's instructions in committing his crimes. Therefore, even Sauckel's labor organization was not created for the purpose of committing atrocities, murders and other inhumane acts. Sauckel and a number of his subordinates made themselves guilty on their own accounts, and as guilty persons they strove to keep their crimes secret and to cover them up. That the defendant cannot be made responsible for these secret acts can hardly be refuted.\nI realize that in answer the Prosecution will remind me of all the documents with severe statements by Milch which have been submitted to the Tribunal. This is a serious count of the Indictment, but one can achieve clarity on the complexity of questions thus brought up only if one considers whether Milch made these severe statements only against foreign workers and prisoners of war or whether they were simply a part of his nature.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3008, "page_number": "2411", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "The witnesses Richter, Foerster, Hertel, Eschenauer, Pandale and Vorwald have confirmed that Milch in his tantrums threatened even his German subordinates, his best workers, with hanging and shooting, and here in this room several men have appeared on the witness stand whom the defendant shot or hanged in words. This clearly shows that the defendant was not one sidedly filled with hatred of the members of foreign nations; besides, this was hardly to be expected in the character of a man who for years energetically worked for peaceful collaboration with other nations and who despised the racial doctrine and the idea of the \"master race.\" Rather, it makes it clear that he uttered such wild expressions only when he was excited, so that his subordinates acquired the habit of laying bets on the number of people who would be shot, when they knew that exciting matters were up for discussion. I read a number of passages to you from the notorious speech before the quartermasters and fleet engineers, in which he raged against those present and against himself in the same terms as he used against the foreigners. And in other documents submitted by the Prosecution one can find such expressions used against Germans, and at that against members of the leading class of the German people and against German workers. All this proves that an unfortunate inclination of Milch is here expressed for which, like a sick person, he cannot be held responsible, especially since he never carried out the punishments which he threatened. All the witnesses whom I have called to the stand from Milch's entourage have testified that he used such terms only in tantrums. These tantrums occurred frequently, and always when he had met with major difficulties in the way of his work to save Germany from complete destruction. He was a sick man. He suffered several very serious accidents, all with severe brain concussions. It is an old experience of medicine that such people are easily excitable, and you must not forget how much this man had on his mind. He was a clairvoyant. He knew that the war was lost for Germany. He realized to what horrors Germany was doomed as a result of the increasingly violent air war. He knew what help was possible in the distress of his people, and he had to stand helplessly by while his shortsighted and perhaps malevolent superiors frustrated hampered and prohibited all his precautions.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3009, "page_number": "2412", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "In such severe mental distress even a healthy man would become so irritable that he would be subjected to violent outbursts of anger. How much more violent would these outbursts be in the case of the sick defendant. His disstressed soul, dwelling in a suffering body, helplessly exposed to its worries, reacted in this way to relieve the tension.\nMany witnesses, in particular the witness Vorwald, have told you that when such excitement occurred the defendant even changed physically, that the back of his face became red and swollen and that afterwards he no longer knew what he had said while he was in such a state. That this testimony, especially that of the witness Verwald, is true, is shown with complete certainty by the incidents between the defendant and Goering on the occasion of the report on the crimes committed by Terboven in Norway on the civilian population., and Exhibit 159 of the Prosecution. The Prosecution with justification bitterly reproached the defendant for failure to protest against this monstrosity. The defendant in his defense was not able to answer that he had really done so. Vorwald has testified that this art of protesting took place in connection with an outburst of anger about precisely that incident, and because the testimony of Vorwald that the defendant did not remember afterwards what had happened during this period of excitement is true, the defendant was not able to carry out a full answer in his own defense because of his excitement. He did not remember. Your Honors, it is clear you have achieved deep insight into the souls of men. Therefore surely you are able to judge that this incident has revealed the truth of what the defendant and his witnesses have told you. Otherwise he would be able to cite his protest as a defense against the charge of the prosecution.\nNow, I assume that the Prosecution will object that these fits of rage occurred much too frequently and that they are therefore not a pathological symptom but a normal expression of his character. Your Honors, this can be disputed by a very simple consideration. The so-called G.L. meetings took place twice a week. That means that from the time when the defendant took office there were a total of about 160 meetings. In addition there were 60 meetings of the Central Planning Board.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3010, "page_number": "2413", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "Finally there were about 30 Jaegerstab meetings, altogether about 250 meetings in which the defendant participated. The meetings lasted many hours. According to my examination the average number of pages of verbatim transcript of the G.L. was about 200 for a single meeting, or about 30,000 - 32,000 pages for the G.L. alone. If one includes the transcripts of other meetings then one comes to figure approximately at least of about 35,000 pages for all the transcripts at a conservative estimate. This is an enormous figure from all these many meetings. From all these many, many pages of transcript, the prosecutor has been able to submit only a very few pages with only very occasional extravagant statements. Therefore it cannot be said that the defendant habitually used such expressions. It is also significant that in the meetings of the General Luftzeugmeister such outbursts occur much more frequently than in the transcripts of the Jaegerstab or the transcripts of the Central Planning Board. In the G.L. meetings the defendant was in his own realm \"among us parson's daughters\", as the witness Vorwald said. Such outbursts naturally occurred there more often because according to experience a human being can let himself go more easily among his most intimate friends than among his subordinates. Nevertheless the outbursts remained isolated.\nIs it not symptomatic that the emotional disturbances of the defendant occurred repeatedly in connection with the same subjects of discussion, for example in the question of the work done by the French industry, the French people, the question of so-called slackers, or the discussion of threatening and inciting remarks made by foreigners. Sometimes several outbursts occurred at brief intervals, one after the other. Why, your Honors? Because the matters that have excited the defendant have not been settled. But this leads us to the question of whether the defendant followed up these wild words with deeds. He never did. It is exactly the fact that as, for example, in the case of the slackers or in the case of the work done by the French industry in France itself, these seemingly malevolent threats so angrily uttered had not been put into effect at all, nevertheless they were made the subject of continuous reproaches for the defendant. Here, your Honors, I ask you to penetrate into the depth of the circumstances with the understanding that characterized a legal person.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3011, "page_number": "2414", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "The defendant repeatedly became excited, for example, over the so-called slackers, Germans unwilling to work whom he considered to be traitors. Each time he issued strict orders expressed wild threats, but would it not have been the most natural thin for this excitable man on all these occasions which followed one on the heels of the other, to shout at his subordinates and to reproach them, to ask them why the orders which he had given and supported before in anger, and which he had advanced repeatedly had not long since been carried out. Would that not have been the most natural and the primary thing that he would have done in his anger if he had really expected and wanted his wild orders carried out? Your Honors, look at it from the human point of view. Revive all the experiences of your long and no doubt rich lives and examine with me whether I am not right in what I say.\nI challenge my learned opponent to show me in all these instances, which are really appalling, one single expression indicating that the defendant objected to the failure to carry out his earlier threatening orders. Not a single word can be found and here, your Honors, the truth becomes so obvious that no intelligent man can ignore it. It sounded incredible in the mouth of the witnesses when they said again and again that no such orders were carried out. It has been put to the defendant that it is improbable that a Field Marshal did not expect his orders to be carried out and that all his subordinates did not immediately rush to carry out his orders, but the man who is sitting before you told the truth in spite of all appearances to the contrary, for if he as a field marshal had expected his orders issued in anger to be carried out then he would surely at one time or another have expressed dissatisfaction because they had not been carried out. But he did nothing except to get angry from his sickness and his anxiety about his people. It is clear not only from the Terboven case that he actually knew nothing about what he had screamed out and that he never seriously pressed home his demands. The court has questioned him repeatedly about these expressions. He always replied that he did not remember them and he didn't believe that he had said so.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3012, "page_number": "2415", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "He has often had to tell you that what he shouted was wrong if he had actually said it. That too seemed incredible at first, but as this man afterwards no longer knew what he said in these attacks then he cannot testify about it. It is also clear that a man in such a fit, speaks many untruths and one cannot assert that he lied deliberately. The man, as I say today, has told you the truth as far as he can know it to the best of his knowledge and belief. These transcripts cannot convict him of untruthfulness. Moreover, in many cases the transcripts arc no doubt full of mistakes; distortions and errors. I have shown you a number of passages which must be wrong. I have shown you transcripts such as N.O.K.W. 359, Exhibit 75, which speak of Milch's presence and of statements made although that day he could not have been present in the Jaegerstab. This is also true of some records of ostensible G.L. meetings. I have also proved that other transcripts make no logical sense in the German text and that several statements must have been run together there. Today, of course, no one can say whether these various statements were all made by the defendant. Many witnesses which I have examined on this matter, for example, to name but a few: Richter, Pendele, Hertel, Speer and Vorwald, have testified that the transcripts contained many errors and that they were never corrected, that they were sometimes even intentionally distorted when the defendant attacked his superiors. Such passages were either left out or changed in such a way that the attacks on the person in question were no longer recognizable. But who would seriously consider it permissible to use such faulty transcripts as evidence?\nAll the witnesses from the entourage of the defendant Finally have told you that in these Central Planning Boards, as well as in the Jaegerstab and G.L. meetings, in addition to transcripts reproducing the individual speeches and opinions, so-called records of results were drawn up which contained only the really important decisions, orders and regulations. They alone were valid for the subordinates. They alone were decisive for them. It is noteworthy that the Prosecution has not submitted a single one of those records of results containing any inhuman orders issued by the defendant.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3013, "page_number": "2416", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "I beg of you, your Honors, not only to give severe consideration to the weaknesses of the defense, I beg you to draw your severe conclusions also from the weaknesses of the prosecution as well. The fact that no incriminating records of results have been submitted proves once more that these threats were never carried out.\nYour Honors, in disturbed times other men, too, sometimes say things which cannot be taken seriously. Men can be judged only according to their deeds, not according to their chatter. If you have access to Churchill's speech made in his first excitement after Dunkirk, you can sec what violations of international law he recommended to the civilian population of England when he called upon them to prevent a German airborne landing. But he never actually issued any such orders, and so no one will try him for that. When the late General Patton said at one time that he intended to continue to collaborate with such of the German Nazis as were specialists, some excited American newspapers ran this headline. \"Patton Should Be Shot\". Who would be so stupid as to call these newspapers inhumane? No one in the world; no one takes such excited words seriously. No one can say that these outbursts of anger meant that Milch approved the atrocities which occurred elsewhere in Germany.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3014, "page_number": "2417", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "The affidavits of Kruedener, Exhibit Milch 37, Lotte Mueller, Exhibit Milch 38, the testimony of witnesses Koenig, Vorwald, Pendele have all shown that this man always and everywhere tried to help people in distress. He, who ostensibly wanted to force the foreign workers and concentration camp inmates to work by means of starving them, had the concentration camp inmates supplied with food from his estate near Rechlin in order to improve their diet. Thus, in his actions, he did the opposite of what he shouted in his anger. But one could raise a very serious charge to the effect that Milch by his thoughtless manner of speaking incited the elements throughout the country which committed such misdeeds. But this again, your Honors, is untrue. You have not heard one single example here of anyone having acted according to Milch's words and having referred to having done so. These displays of fury only occurred among people who knew Milch and knew that he could not be taken seriously in such moments. All witnesses have stated for you that these fits only became known to the circle of intimates.\nI lived in Germany throughout the war. Although the sins of the high ranking leaders of the Reich were eagerly discussed among the people, I never heard one word about Milch's fits of rage. In reply to my question the witness Vorwald stated convincingly that nobody spoke about these incidents to other persons because they did not wish to expose their superior to whom they were attached. His loyal followers surrounded with a cordon of silence. Nothing could more understandable, and every decent person who respects his superior will and must act in the same manner, for, in spite of his occasional fierceness, Milch was popular with his subordinates. The witnesses Richter, Hertel, Pendele and Vorwald, among others, testified before you that Milch was highly esteemed. Richter actually called him the best and fairest superior whom he had ever met in all his life. Here, your Honors, in this praise Milch's true nature appears before our eyes.\nI believe, therefore, to be justified in saying that one cannot and must not judge Milch by his wild talk. To infer guilt from that would mean to pass a judgment which could never be uphold before justice. Nobody may be judged by empty phrases. I would like to tell you a true story here which occurred in Germany during the discussions about a new, more stringent National Socialist penal code.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3015, "page_number": "2418", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "At that time the Party took the point of view that criminal intent in itself was punishable, and thus, during a meeting of the Penal Law Commission in connection with the question of the meaning of murder, a long debate developed as to whether a person who intended to bring about the death of an enemy by prayer was to be punished by death for murder The majority of Party members concurred with this mad opinion on the punishment of criminal intent. The sensible ones protested against it for a long time. When the debate was nearing its end, Dr. Guertner, the Reich Minister of Justice at the time, a clear sighted man, rose and with one single sentence made reason prevail. These were his words: \"Gentlemen, I do not understand you. All my life a corpse has been part of a murder.\" The narrow minded Party doctrinaires had to give in to the scornful laughter that followed these words. And in that way I should like here to think of Milch's wild talk and exclaim, \"Where is the corpse?\"\nIn my opinion the only remaining question which needs serious discussion is merely that of the employment of foreign workers, of POW's, and of concentration camp inmates. To begin with, it must be mentioned that the prosecution in its opening speech maintained that Milch more than anybody else in Germany was occupied with the employment of forced labor in Germany. That statement, however, is in no way correct. That, at least, has been clarified by the evidence beyond all doubt, it seems to me. There can be no doubt that Sauckel and Speer had considerably more to do with so-called forced labor than Milch quite apart from Hitler and Goering themselves.\nIt is necessary to visualize clearly the scope of Milch's sphere of activities and of his authority. Your Honors, even if you were only to check the three part Exhibit Milch 55 which I submitted, even to a superficial scrutiny only, you would realize immediately that Speer alone had a great deal more to do with this work than Milch. Speer was in charge of all armaments for the Army and Navy which, measured in human beings, by far exceeded the Luftwaffe, and alone exceeded the volume of the Luftwaffe armament many times, in particular as Milch only dealt with the construction of airplanes and as all equipment for the crews, in fact, were part of the Army equipment.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3016, "page_number": "2419", "date": "23 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-23", "text": "Furthermore, Speer was in charge of all other productions in the German Reich. Finally, after the establishment of the Jaegerstab Speer was also placed in charge of all armaments for the Luftwaffe. This Exhibit Milch 55, to which the defendant has sworn and which is based on the prosecution's own Exhibit 58, reveals a much greater and more comprehensive scope of Speer's organization. It was he, who as the central authority, not only controlled an apparatus with considerably more tasks; he alone also had at his disposal the executive authorities in the country who dealt with all matters which had to be taken, whereas Milch had no executive organs at his disposal. He had, therefore, no executive powers whatsoever. Speer alone was in charge of the powerful main committees, the main industrial rings (cartels of factories) in which the captains of industry exerted their influence and power.\nHe was also in charge of the armament commissions and armament officials of the armament inspectorates and armament detachments in the defense districts. And lastly, the Gau Plenipotentiaries and provincial economic offices in the whole country listened to him. He was with Hitler almost every week, and therefore, he possessed much more influence which was only second to Sauckel's.\nTHE PRESIDENT:May I ask you what was Koerner's special interest?\nDR. BERGOLD:I am not speaking about Central Planning Board here. I am only speaking about the GL.\nTHE PRESIDENT:I know, but in the Central Planning Board what particular field was Koerner interested in -- the Navy?\nDR. BERGOLD:Koerner? No, he was mainly in charge of agriculture. He testified to that effect.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Very well.\nDR. BERGOLD:Speer was with Hitler almost once a week and had therefore much more influence to which Sauckel's power set the only limit. The man Milch never possessed such a machine. The GL was nothing but a technical agency in the Reich Air Ministry which generally, as the witnesses Vorwald and Hertel confirmed, was told by the General Staff of the Luftwaffe what was to be constructed.", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3017, "page_number": "2420", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "If Milch had really been the powerful man as the prosecution describes him, it would have been possible for him to carry out his plan for Germany's air defense. But the achievement of this goal for which this man worked with unbelievable effort and with all energy was denied to him simply because he was only in charge of a technical office which could not make any fundamental decisions whatsoever. Hitler, Goering, and the General Staff of the Luftwaffe decided what this man had to construct and what plans he was to carry out. He carried them out only within the framework of the task with which he was entrusted, always being in the central authority without solid foundation of power, without the direct authority to give orders to industry, without influence on the supply of manpower and materials, he could only get influence through the Central Planning Office, and there too the fundamental decisions were made by Hitler, by the latter himself, or on the advice of Speer.\nIt is not necessary for me to name all the witnesses. All his collaborators have testified to that effect. May it please the Tribunal, if you examine the statements made by Hertel and Vorwald, you will gather from them beyond any doubt that the GL had nothing to do at all with the question of labor, with the recruiting, transportation and assignment of workers. The GL and this cannot possibly be doubted by anyone, after hearing all these witnesses and especially after Milch's testimony, had merely to make the blueprints for airplanes and construction necessary for this purpose, and then to place the orders with the completely independent industry following in all this the instructions of the General Staff and the orders given by Hitler and Goering. All witnesses from the GL had confirmed before you that the GL had nothing to do at all with the labor question; that he did not request one single worker or exert any influence on Sauckel. It is true that requests for labor passed, for statistical reasons, through the GL office, and also for the carrying out of control. But it is importan to remember and never to forget that the industry submitted its real labor requests through the country to the labor exchange offices which were Sauckel's agencies and to the armament inspectorates and armament detachments which were Speer's agencies.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3018, "page_number": "2421", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "Vorwald and the defendant himself have shown you with unmistakable clearness that the only thing which the GL had to do with these requests was merely that he examined these requests of the industry from the points of view of material as well as labor, and that he then reported to the Speer Ministry whether and how far the requests of the industry were exaggerated and mistaken and if the GL considered fewer materials and less manpower to be adequate.\nNow, what does such an activity actually mean? Surely not as the prosecution submits, the enslavement of now workers, but exactly the contrary; namely their reduction. If the GL had not exercised his beneficial activity Sauckel would have got much larger requests from the industry and he would have procured this labor by means of more forceful methods than he actually did. That the industry had to request workers in order to carry out its tasks assigned by Hitler, Goering and the General Staff of the Luftwaffe, being the authorities which decided on the extent of the construction program of air armaments, was however not caused by the GL. He was nothing else but an executive organ in the chain of command from Hitler, Goering and the General Staff. He was merely the technical agency which had to make the blueprints and constructions, and then, after approval by higher authorities had to submit them to the industry for the taking of orders.\nThis, your Honors, is the result of the evidence produced on the activity of the GL, and the only thing which the GL did in the framework of this activity was to reduce to the lowest level the requests for labor made by industry, for the many reasons that he was sufficiently expert to see through the exaggerated requests of industry which could never get enough workers.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3019, "page_number": "2422", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "It is significant that the GL minutes which have been submitted nowhere reveal a discussion of real manpower guidance, but, at the utmost, that once a few questions were discussed for information purposes. It is furthermore, highly significant that among the entire organizations of the GL there were no offices for labor assignment and labor control as was the case in the Armament Ministry of Speer (see Exhibit Mi 55), but merely statistics of the personnel. There is nothing to clarify the real situation better than this fact.\nCan the defendant be blamed for the fact that industry, which had to carry out Hitler's construction program, employed foreign workers, prisoners of war, concentration camp inmates --? Industry had employed these people before the beginning of Milch's tenure of office; it employed them because Hitler had ordered through Sauckel that industry had to employ these people not in order to obtain slave labor for slave labor's sake -- but for the only reason to be able to throw still more Germans into the greedy jaws of the fiendish war and thus surely causing disaster for Germans as well as for other peoples.\nAs far as the GL is concerned -- the least reproach can be made to Milch of all reporaches that can be made to him. It only consists in that he passed orders on to the air armament industry (and where did this not occur during the war?), and that he saw to it that no exaggerated requests for material and manpower were made.\nThe prosecution has proved nothing which could contradict these statements. But Milch has --- and this, too, has been proven -- not only curtailed exaggerated labor requests of the industry by means of his statistics, thus preventing the increase of foreign labor, but in addition to that, as was stated by the witnesses Brauchitsch, Pendele, Hertel, Vorwald, and others, he always endeavored seriously and successfully to maintain the German workers in the factories; and in doing so he even saved German workers who should be drafted, at least to the amount of 70,000 for the air armament factories, keeping thus on a lower level further requests for foreign workers and their assignment. A man who, as the prosecution means, is keen on slave labor does not act in that way.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3020, "page_number": "", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "Finally, there is another point to be mentioned in this connection. The 2422-A International Military Tribunal -- which, by the way, states expressly in its verdict against Sauckel that there is no doubt of Sauckel having had the overall responsibility for the slave labor program -- that Tribunal stated in its verdict against Speer that it has to be considered as a mitigating circumstance in his favor, that by setting up protected factories Speer had kept many workers in their homelands.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3021, "page_number": "2423", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "Your Honors will remember the depositions of Hertel, Vorwald, and Milch, from which it can be seen that as early as 1941 Milch, firstly together with Udot and later on alone, had factories working in France on the basis of a free agreement with the French plants in order to employ French workers in their home country.\nInternational Military Tribunal -- which, by the way, states expressly in its verdict against Sauckel that there is no doubt of Sauckel having had the overall responsibility for the slave labor program -- that Tribunal stated in its verdict against Speer that it has to be considered as a mitigating circumstance in his favor, that by setting up protected factories Speer had kept many workers in their homelands. Your Honors will remember the depositions of Hertel, Vorwald, and Milch, from which it can be seen that as early as 1941 Milch, firstly together with Udot and later on alone, had factories working in France on the basis of a free agreement with the French plants in order to employ French workers in their home country. These agreements were, as has been testified by Foerster, completely free, because in 1941 the industry of that part of France although not yet occupied at that time had adhered to them. Therefore, Milch was the inventor of the idea to have labor employed on the spot in foreign countries. It was not only in France that he, being the first, carried that our. You have heard that this occurred also in Holland and in Hungary. Now, if the International Military Tribunal counted this circumstance as a mitigating one for Speer, it must all the more be credited to the defendant who acted in that way not merely from 1943 onward, as did Speer according to his own statement in this trial, but already as early as 1941, and being the first to do so at that. In this instance again the defendant proved to be a man who endeavored to mitigate as much as possible the difficulties which had arisen from the exigencies of the times. That much as far as the defendant's activity as GL is concerned.\nWhen I come to consider in how far Milch's activity in the Central Planning Board could be charged against him, I am aware that some of the minutes of the Central Planning Board could, in themselves, be interpreted as a charge against Milch. But if your Honors consider that out of sixty meetings of the Central Planning Board the prosecution could only list fifteen meetings in which labor questions were discussed - this being done in some instances in a perfunctory and casual way -- it results from this fact already that the Central Planning Board, as to its aim, was not charged with the guiding of manpower which at that time was the focal point of many schemes in all countries, and, above all, in Germany.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3022, "page_number": "", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "In this trial there was much argument between the prosecution and the 2423-A defense as to the significance and the essence of the Central Planning Board until, eventually, with the help of the key document Prosecution Exhibit 157,NOKW 245, the argument has been decided upon.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3023, "page_number": "2424", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "There it says on page 5407 of the German text, literally: \"Speer and I (that is, Milch) are of the opinion that he (Sauckel) has to be incorporated somehow in the Central Planning Board in order to get into our hands also the labor assignment, besides the material. At the present time we have no possibility to steer it.\"\nThese words were voiced on 23 February 1943 after the Central Planning Board had been in existence for already one year. These words were not voiced at that time for the purpose of ex post facto whitewashing, but they expressed the complete truth, unmistakeably characterized the situation in quite simple and clear words for ever and always. No decree has been submitted, nor has there been proved any order of Hitler to the effect that this situation has been changed at any time. At no time, indeed, at no time was Sauckel a member of the Central Planning Board. If the prosecution wants to consider the wish Milch uttered at that occasion as incriminating, they are at liberty to do so. However, this is not a punishable deed, and nobody can tell what amount of good Milch could have done if he had actually been in charge of the labor assignment. His other deeds account for the assumption that he would certainly have stopped abuses and would have mitigated all that was necessary as far as possible. The members of this trial would not really believe, at first, the depositions of all the witnesses who have been heard here, including Koerner's stating that the Central Planning Board dealt with labor questions merely for reasons of information. The wording of the speeches seemed to contradict it. But, Your Honors, the witnesses have also testified before you that the speeches could only be understood if they are read by an initiated. This, at first, does not sound very intelligible, as no one of us is among the initiated. Prosecution Exhibit 157 has put an end to all such doubts. Whoever wants to pronounce here the verdict with all the necessary seriousness cannot bypass this document. Nobody can contend any longer that the defendant has not told you the full truth.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3024, "page_number": "", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "Therefore, his statement under oath is to be believed, which agrees with Speer's statement in that the socalled labor assignment meetings were held with Sauckel always with the sole aim to obtain from *******, 2424-A Sauckel, who had reported so many false figures and was not scrupulous about telling the truth, eventually and for once, clear figures.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3025, "page_number": "2425", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "Likewise, Prosecution Exhibit 134,NOKW 195, the report on the meeting of 28 October 1943, held at Goering's place, shows a constant struggle with Sauckel in order to obtain true figures because Hitler would not believe that Sauckel's figures were completely false. It has been proven that actually both Speer and Milch have been reproached because they did not fulfill the program made by Hitler, although many millions of workers had allegedly been at their disposal. Alone for air armament, according to Goering's calculation based on Sauckel's figures, five million workers should have been available - whereas the entire air armament employed a much lower total of people. As Hitler was a dangerous man and his reproaches could have disagreeable consequences, Speer and Milch cannot be blamed for wanting to get this subject clear; consequently, if they discussed this problem in detail especially during 53rd and 54th meetings of the Central Planning Board this had nothing to do at all with labor procurement. That these meetings have not been called by Milch - that they have been called by Speer and his ministry, has been proven. Milch presided over these meetings only because Speer was ill. But he only carried through the orders of his friend Speer. But even these discussions do not alter the fact that the Central Planning Board did not obtain any influence on the carrying out of the labor procurement nor on its distribution. How characteristic it is, however, for Milch that he used even this discussion about Sauckel's figures in order to reduce the millions of new workers whom Hitler had ordered in January 1944, to quite a considerable extent.\nIn all the discussions submitted there is nowhere a word to be found, either, to the effect that Milch had requested workers for his air armament.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Dr. Bergold, will you select a convenient stopping place for the recess?\nDR. BERGOLD:Yes, yes, I thought of that.", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3026, "page_number": "2426", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "THE PRESIDENT:I take it you are not going to finish before the recess.\nDR. BERGOLD:I thought that. All right. I shall be there very quickly (Continuing). If the need for workers was under discussion, then always only, as the defendant himself confirmed, in regard to the basic industries-that is, mining and the iron industry and in regard to agriculture. It was always a question, as the records show, of the commitment of prisoners of war But even according to the Geneva Convention prisoners of war may be employed in mining, in the production of iron, and in agriculture. These places of work are not actual armament industries.\nThat Milch did not have anything to do with the commitment of Russians in anti-aircraft defense (flak), which was not under him at all; that, on the contrary, he even opposed it, and that that part of the minutes of the 33rd meeting of the Central Planning Board must be incorrect here, too, has been stated by the witnesses Hertel, Koening, an well as others in an equally unobjectionable manner. It has not been proven that this order was issued by the OKW directly via Goering.\nThus Milch, in his capacity as member of the Central Planning Board, was neither perpetrator of, nor accomplice in, crimes; nor did the Central Planning Board have as its purpose the commission of such crimes. Its sole purpose was the distribution of raw materials -- an activity which is not prohibited under any conditions.\nDR. BERGOLD:I interrupt here.\nTHE PRESIDENT:We will recess for lunch now.\n(A recess was taken until 1330 hours)", "speakers": [ "DR. BERGOLD", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3027, "page_number": "2427", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "AFTERNOON SESSION (The hearing reconvened at 1330 hours, 25 March 1947)\nTHE MARSHAL:Persons in the Courtroom will please take their seats.\nThe Tribunal Number Two is again in session.\nDR. BERGOLD:The third activity of Milch which could bring him in connection with the so-called slave labor was the activity on the Jaegerstab. Were one to view this membership in the Jaegerstab from the point of view of the prosecution, one could perhaps maintain the previously formed opinion that this activity was limited to the increased use of slave labor. The testimony of Speer, Vorwald and Milch, however, have shown that the Jaegerstab had two main aims, namely; first, to raise the production of fighter planes and, secondly, to facilitate Milch's resignation from his office by transferring the entire air armament industry to the ministry of Speer.\nFormerly, to be sure, Milch was one of the chairmen of this Jaegerstab, but the witnesses--among them Schmelter, Hertel, Eschenauer and Vorwald--have testified that the actual chairman of this Jaegerstab was Saur. Milch very soon withdrew from the Jaegerstab; in March 1944 still participated in fifteen meetings, in April only eight, in may only five, and in June only two. Nothing concerns the veracity of the testimony of the defendant more than the quite obvious decrease in his participation. If one considers the fact that the Jaegerstab held its meetings daily one realizes how rapidly the decrease in the activity of the defendant was... If one considers furthermore that he was not always present at the meetings at all; that he did not hear most of the details of the discussions at these meetings--one can say with certainty that he was really not the man who had the biggest influence in the Jaegerstab, and who performed the practical work there. The expression \"Breakfast director\" which the witness Dorsch applied to the defendant characterizes the situation excellently.", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "DR. BERGOLD" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3028, "page_number": "2428", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "The Jaegerstab was concerned with labor questions only insofar as it guided the so-called transfer of workers who were already working in industry. In the event changes in production occurred, especially effecting, as far as possible, their transfer from closed down bomber factories to fighter plane factories. However, in this connection it is almost exclusively a question of socalled skilled workers, as the witness Schmelter, a specialist in this field, has confirmed. In this process no new workers of any kind were introduced into the industry. The witness Schmelter, however, finally expressly confirmed that no real influence was exerted on Sauckel and his offices. Wishes regarding the transfer were merely referred to the Organization Sauckel. This fact in particular was emphasized in the statement of Schmelter with all the clarity desirable.\nThus, it has been proved in regard to this committee, too, that it had nothing to do with the bringing of workers into Germany from abroad, or dealt with their re-distribution. Thus, it was also not the purpose of the Jaegerstab to decide labor questions. Finally, it has thus been clarified that the ministry of Speer was the office which handled labor questions, insofar as it was necessary in the framework of the transfers. On the basis of the submitted documents, it seems at first as though the Jaegerstab had initiated and carried out the building of underground factories or of concrete protected factories above ground. The witnesses Speer, Hertel, Eschenauer, Koenig, Spendele, as well as Milch, himself, however, all clearly and decisively confirmed that these constructions were ordered directly by Hitler and Goering, and that the defendant had opposed these orders because he considered them senseless. It has furthermore been declared that Hitler, himself, handled the needs of workers for these undesirable constructions.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3029, "page_number": "2429", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "The Jaegerstab was connected with these constructions, according to all the testimony, only to the extent that it had to examine which ones of the fighter plane factories had to be installed in them. In this connection it must be remembered that a number of these constructions were also allocated for armament factories of the Wehrmacht. Thus, Milch cannot also be charged with any responsibility in this count. He was neither formally nor actually in a position to prevent Hitler's and Goering's orders. Nor had Milch anything to do with the allocation of Hungarian Jews to these factories, quite apart from the fact that it has been made clear that these Jews were allocated only in the summer of 1944, which was stated by the last prosecution witness, Krysiak. That is at a time when Milch had withdrawn from his office for some time.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3030, "page_number": "2430", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "It has been proved that Hitler issued relevant orders here and that the Jaegerstab trip to Hungary was entirely unconnected with this matter because it was undertaken solely for the purpose of a conference with the legal Hungarian government. These consultations were merely concerned with agreements regarding aircraft production by the Hungarian industry in the large caves near the Danube. Not one single document has shown that Milch either agreed to or welcomed the employment of Hungarian Jews.\nTo sum up, I may say then that even within the Jaegerstab Milch was neither a principal nor an abetter in the crimes listed in the indictment. I might add that it was not the purpose of the Jaegerstab to carry out such crimes. In any case he was on that board by no means the leading man. It has been found with certainty beyond all doubt from the defendant's point of view the Jaegerstab served the purpose of helping him to withdraw from office.\nMention will also be made of the question of concentration camp inmates doing work. Before going into details, I should like to make a few basic remarks. From all the trials in which I acted as counsel, from the questions asked in this courtroom, from various discussions I have had with citizens of your country, I have, your Honors, attained the certainty that in your circles no one believes in the truthfulness of the defendants and all other witnesses' statements, namely that the average German knew nothing about the happenings in the concentration camps and that the defendant did not know of the existence of such camps, with the exception of Dachau and Oranienburg. As most Germans certify to this and as all witnesses swear to this under oath, it is first of all difficult to understand why such statements are not believed. It can only be explained by the fact that the citizens of your country have been so much influenced by press propaganda and the newly discovered facts that they put more trust in the reports of their newspapers than in the assurances of the citizens of a country which is now known throughout the world as the place of origin of many atrocities.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3031, "page_number": "2431", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "But should such prejudice which does not originate from own and actual experience influence the judgment? I believe and always have believed that it is one of the essential laws of justice to base one's judgment strictly on facts which have become evident during a trial. It is a proven fact that in Germany no one was allowed to write about concentration camps; that the rules of secrecy which had been imposed by the dictatorial regime had to be kept very strictly; and that even the German authorities in case of their violating these rules of secrecy, were threatened with death, as I have proved by the submission of Exhibit MI-36.\nFrom the statement of the witness Roeder, who, incidentally, explained that the defendant had neither the power of passing a death sentence nor of sending people to concentration camps, you have learned that the concentration camp inmates spoke to nobody about their condition. Even the prosecution witness Krysiak has told you that the prisoners did not dare to lodge complaints to anybody. How could the Germans generally learn about conditions in concentration camps? Milch, too, could not and did not learn about them, as he has told you, for the secrecy was kept even among the highest authorities. May the propaganda of your country insist on the contrary as much as it likes, what I have stated here still remains true, and I can certify it myself.\nI myself who during the time of the so-called Third Reich often enough defended men who were accused because of their political views, I, who was watched by the Gestapo, who was attacked in the public newspapers of Nurnberg and especially was mentioned with name in the notorious \"Stuermer\" on account of my defense of unhappy Jews, I, too, didn't learn anything about these camps, although clients came to me after their release from the concentration camp Dachau. I always asked them and I always received the answer that they had nothing special to report. It was, of course, no pleasant life, but they reported that it was not so bad.\nI would as you, your Honors, to consider how, we could have learned of these conditions.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3032, "page_number": "2432", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "May I remind you in this connection that deeds have been committed in the East of the former German territory, in the Sudenten-German border territories of Czechoslovakia, and other countries, deed which, even if one imagines them at their worst, remain far behind the truth. About these atrocities the international press has kept silent although one day history will speak and one will learn about them with horror. I have refused to give proof of the events which were brought about by your armies after the collapse. I could have mentioned many deeds which can be called nothing but grave infringements against the Geneva Convention. I could have given you a picture of how in the prisoners' camps in the early days hundreds of German prisoners died of starvation. I am never accusing any one. Shortcomings of organization and of human nature but not express orders and rules account for it.\nI only mention this, your Honors, in order to point out that you did not learn about this and that it is only our unhappy and wretched people who know about it. But we who have had the bitter experience of the power of propaganda and of the force of secrecy know that ignorance of such matters can be excused and believed. Therefore, no one may say from the outset that all the unanimous statements by witnesses and the declarations of Milch are to be disbelieved. They have been sworn to; and the verdict must take them into consideration.\nAccording to these it is certain that Milch only knew of the employment of concentration camp inmates in the Heinkel plant in Oranienburg and that he was of the opinion that these were German criminals and German political prisoners, of whose mistreatment, however, he had no knowledge. The use of prisoners and convicts is not a crime against humanity. This, however, should not have to be mentioned. In all countries in the world it is customary for prisoners to be obliged to work. In Germany this was even regulated by law to such an extent that the prisoners who were condemned to prison, that is, not to the penitentiary, also had to work. For a prisoner to have to work is not an atrocity. An atrocity can be seen only if the prisoner has to do this work under conditions which injure his health or which are inhumane.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3033, "page_number": "2433", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "But Milch did not know that the food, the housing, and the treatment of the prisoners were inhumane. One would have to prove such knowledge before one could punish him for it. You have heard, on the contrary, that he always did everything possible when he heard of individual cases of abuse. He even tried to help, as the Kreudener affidavit, Exhibit MI-37, proves, in a case where he was not competent. As the testimony of Kruedener revealed this was a case of inadequate accommodations. Moreover, as the witness Koenig has testified, he instituted an improvement in the food given the prisoners at Rechlin on his own initiative. Moreover, he generally saw to it that the workers got better rations.\nBut that does not mean that he knew that those prisoners were starving. It was unfortunately so that because of the total blockade of Germany by the allied forces the food available to the civilian population of Germany was very poor. I myself had only had the minimum ration card; and I could tell you a long story about how difficult it was to work on such rations. Milch, however, obtained better food for everyone working under him for armament. It was he who was the first to obtain extra rations for his air armament industry because the workers worked overtime. As a number of records of the Central Planning Board and the Fighter Staff show, he obtained additional rations for the prisoners of war and, for example, sent the Russians into agriculture so that they might get better food there and be padded a little. He had an office set up in the Fighter Staff in order to obtain additional food and clothing for the workers as the witness Schmelter has testified.\nThe improvement in the food of the inmates of Rechlin concentration camp was part of these measures. If he did this through the estate, it was because he had no influence with the administration of the concentration camps in respect of the issue of additional ration cards.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3034, "page_number": "2434", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "It would not correspond with justice if he was pronounced punishable for the employment of concentration camp inmates under this condition. The compulsory labor of prisoners has always been lawful in Germany even before the Third Reich. He knew nothing of cruelties and atrocities or inhuman treatment. Therefore, his consent to this cannot be proved. If I may summarize then, I believe that my opening statement for the defense had correctly revealed that Milch was not a slave driver, moreover that he never initiated it, nor was he of the opinion that the employment of such workers was permitted, and finally that he had done everything to keep down the employment of foreign workers as much as possible and to make it as humane as possible. At any rate the Prosecutions description of him is in no way accurate, and could only originate from a misunderstanding of the man, his speeches, and of his background. Sauckel and Speer had far greater responsibility in this connection. It was they who had real influence, and not Milch, but even in the case of Speer who was higher than Milch in his position, the International Military Tribunal has granted extenuating circumstances in connection with the manpower. I am convinced that Milch thought employing such labor was permissible, and that he did everything in his power to keep such employment to the lowest level and as human as possible.\nI am conscious of the fact that the verdict of the International Military Tribunal is a great obstacle for me, and nevertheless the Tribunal was merely composed of human beings, and it had passed judgment under particularly difficult circumstances, and in composition it opened the door to politics into the courtroom. I do not need to remind you that in the English speaking countries, several verdicts of the Tribunal were subjected to very serious criticism. I myself here attacked one point of this verdict with better witnesses and better evidence. That with regard to slave labor, the International Military Tribunal, for example, based itself upon a wrong assumption. Nobody has stated there that the USSR has called off the Hague Convention of land warfare.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3035, "page_number": "", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "I have checked up on those features of defense, and I found that all the time it was only talk that the USSR had not become competent of the Convention. The statement of Jeurath has revealed that notice was expressly given.\nHere we not only pronounce penalty verdicts or judgment, but also political judgments, whether we want to, or not. Especially in politics there is always some fluctuation. Every day new facts have turned up, which throws different 2434 a light upon things.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3036, "page_number": "2435", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "The distance of the time always grows greater and greater and has become separated from the events of the past which allows a mere conscious judgment. The man who returns from battle is always confused. The more he becomes calm the more he admits justice towards his enemy.\nThe Honorable Judges of this Tribunal when you judge please don't forget the whole personality of Milch. He always concerned himself as a good and noble man, and I am not only convinced of that as his counsel but also as a human being. The world would have a different outlook if his superiors had listened to his advice, which were made to serve the people of this world, and the common will of the people, and peace. In his heart he always took the side of the fighter who fought for united Europe, which now has been joined also by his former enemy Number One, Churchill. May this statement of Milch which has thrown new light upon things serve this aim. The poor and tortured Europe needs an enduring peace. May his statements also open the eyes of those among the German people who still cannot give up their misconceptions of many years, and show them what crime has been committed against them.\nBut you Honorable Judges must recognize from the attitude of the defendant Milch that he never became unfaithful to himself, and even if he had been perhaps under the spell of erroneous conception, he has always wanted the best for his and other people.\nI have profound confidence in you, the Honorable Judges, that you, equally detached from your own people, will find an independent, true and righteous judgment that corresponds to the truth. I shall consider it as an honor for my person, if I have contributed to this through my painstaking labor.\nMR. DENNEY:May it please Your Honors.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Mr. Denney.\nMR. DENNEY:We close today the trial of a major war criminal. A leader in a slaving operation, the enormity of which is without historical parallel; a principal in a crime of murder in the ironic masquerade of scientific progress which has shocked alike the world of medicine and the world of laymen.", "speakers": [ "THE PRESIDENT", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3037, "page_number": "", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "The evidence set forth before the Tribunal has shown that Erhard Milch was 2435 a primarily implicated as a leader in a program to bring laborers into Germany by force, of allocating them to the various segments of the German war economy, and of munitions.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3038, "page_number": "2436", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "We deal here with a top military and economic planner who at all times was fully informed as to the aims and objectives of the Nazi plan. Unlike his colleagues SPEER and SAUCKEL, MILCH entered the conspiracy early. The defendant was one of a small group of men who constituted the leadership of the Reich.\nBefore dealing directly with the responsibility of the defendant for the crimes charged in the Indictment, as shown by the evidence, we should like to review, briefly, the law applicable to these crimes.\nTHE LAW.\nThe indictment charges and the evidence has connected tho defendant with a wide variety of crimes incident to the enforced labor program of the Nazi regime. In themselves, these crimes are not now except in their enormity. In domestic law they have, from ancient times, borne such familiar titles as assault, battery, murder, kidnapping and pillage. In international law the principles which protect the individual from undue interference with his person and his personal freedom have given rise to a series of kindred precepts governing the conduct of a nation which has gained factual control over the citizens of another state. We shall consider briefly some salient precepts and prohibitions of international law up to, and including the provisions of Control Council Law No. 10.\nMuch of the labor which supplied Germany with the tools of total war was exacted from people who had been uprooted from their homes in occupied territories and imported to Germany. Displacement of groups of persons from one country to another is the proper concern of international law insofar as it effects the community of nations.\nThe law has recognized that some conditions may justify the transfer of people from one country to another. Correspondingly, and with much more relevance to the present case, international law has enuciated certain conditions under which the fact of deportation becomes a crime.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3039, "page_number": "2437", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "If the transfer is carried out without a legal title, as is the case where people are deported from a country occupied by an invader while the occupied enemy still has an army in the field, the deportation is contrary to international law. The rationale of this rule lies in the supposition that the occupying power has prevented temporarily the rightful sovereign from exercising power over its citizens.\nArticles 43, 46, 49, 52, 55 and 56 of the Hague Regulations, which limit the rights of the belligerent occupant, do not expressly specify as a crime the deportation of civilians from an occupied territory. However, Article 52 states tho following conditions under which services may be demanded from the inhabitants of occupied countries:\n1. They must be for the needs of the army of occupation;\n2. They must be in proportion to the resources of the country; and 3. They must be of such a nature as not to involve the inhabitants in the obligation to take part in military operations against their own country.\nInsofar as this section limits the conscription of labor to that required for the needs of the army of occupation, it is clear that the use of labor from occupied territories outside of the area of occupation is forbidden by the Hague Regulations.\nThe illegality of the deportation of civilians in territories under belligerent occupation was demonstrated in the First World War when the Germans attempted a deportation program of Belgian workers into Germany. This measure met with world-wide protest and was abandoned after about four months.\nAmong the voices raised in protest against the deportation of Belgians by Germany in 1916-1917 was that of Lansing, Secretary of State. He wrote:\n\"The Government of the United States has learned with the greatest concern and regret of the policy of the German Government to deport from Belgium a portion of the civilian population for the purposes of forcing them to labor in Germany, and is constrained to protest in a friendly spirit but most solemnly against this policy which is in contravention of all precedent and all principles of international practice which have long been accepted and followed by civilized nations in their treatment of non-combatants in conquered territory.\"", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3040, "page_number": "2438", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "Other protests were lodged with the German Government by Spain, Switzerland, Netherlands and Brazil, all neutral countries. International lawyers all over the world condemned Germany's action in the strongest terms.\nThe opposition in the German Reichstag accused the Government of violating the Hague Convention and refused to vote for the war budget.\nIt is worthy of note, in passing, that the defendant has testified at this trial that he know of this effort at deportation of labor on the part of Germany in the First War and that he was much interested in the investigation conducted by a Reichstag Committe concerning this matter. He could not have followed this investigation, as he admits he did, without learning that the deportation in question was violation of internation law.\nThe second condition under which deportation becomes a crime occurs when the purpose of the displacement is illegal. A conspicuous example of illegality of purpose is found when the deportation is for the purpose of compelling the deportees to manufacture weapons for use against their homeland or to be assimilated in the working economy of the occupying country.\nAn attempt has been made by the Defense in this trial to show that persons were deported from France into Germany legally and for a legal purpose, by pointing out that such deportations were authorized by agreements between Nazi and Vichy French authorities. This defense is both technically and substantially deficient. Many of the Vichy Government's highest officials who held office by reason of and under the protection of Nazi power, have been punished for treason by the present legitimate government. And two, the agreements themselves were illegal - because they were exacted under duress, and because they were void \"ab initio\" because of their immoral content. It is common knowledge that oven tho puppets of Vichy did not of their own accor agree to the Nazi deportation measures. It is equally clear that these agreements were \"contra bonos mores.\" Then to it was illegal for any French Government, to conclude agreements which provided for the compulsory mass deportation of French workers to aid tho enemy's war effort. At the time of the agreement between Germany and Vichy there was merely a state of suspension of hostilities.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3041, "page_number": "2439", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "French resistance had not ceased, and the outcome of the war continued to be uncertain. Lastly, the deportation agreements were invalid because their manifest purpose was to aid Germany in the commission of the crime of aggressive war. That an agreement in furtherance of an act which is illegal in international law is invalid has been stated by various authorities.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3042, "page_number": "2440", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "For example, Professor Charles Cheney HYDE of Columbia University defines as internationally illegal \"agreements which are concluded for the purpose of, and with a view, to causing the performance of acts which it (international law) prescribes.\"\nProfessor HALL, page 382 of the 8th Edition of International Law (1924), declares:\n\"The requirement that contracts shall be in conformity with law invalidates, or at least renders voidable, all agreements which are at variance with the fundamental principles of International Law and their undisputed applications.\"\nLauterpach on International Law by L. Oppenheim, at Volume I, page 706, states:\n\"It is a unanimously recognized customary rule of international law that obligations which are variance with universally recognized principles of International Law cannot be the object of a treaty.\"\nThe final condition under which deportation becomes illegal occurs whenever generally recognized standards of decency and humanity are disregarded. This flows from the established principle of law that an otherwise permissible act becomes a crime when carried out in a criminal manner.\nA study of the pertinent parts of Control Council Law No. 10 strengthens the conclusions of the foregoing statements, that deportation of the population is criminal whenever there is no title in the deporting authority or whenever the purpose of the displacement is illegal, or whenever the deportation is characterized by inhumane or illegal methods.\nArticle II (1) (b) lists under war crimes \"ill treatment or deportation to slave labor or for any other purpose of civilian population from occupied territories.\" It is clear that Law No. 10 establishes the following separate and dis tinct crimes:", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3043, "page_number": "2441", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "ill treatment of civilians from occupied teritories; departation to slave labor of such civilians; and deportation for any other purposes of such civilians.\nThe prohibition of deportation of civilians from occupied territories irrespective of the purpose, as stated in Control Council Law No. 10, is a recognition of tho principle of international law that a power in belligerent occupation has no right or authority (title) to deport tho citizens of the occupied territories. The separate specification as a war crime in Law No. 10 of ill treatment of civilians from occupied territories, is a recognition of the rule of international law, as heretofore discussed, that even an otherwise lawful deportation (by an authority having title and for a legitimate purpose) is rendered illegal where the doportees are ill treated.\nWithout entering into a detailed discussion of the evidence, it should be pointed out at this point, that all these conditions for criminal deportation were abundantly present in the enforced labor program of Germany during the 2nd world War, and that the knowing connection of the defendant with all phases of illegal opertation has been established.\nArticle II (1) (c) of Control Council Law No. 10 specifies certain crimes against humanity. Among these is listed the \"deportation ..... (of) any civilian population .....\" The general language of this subsection, as applied to deportation, indicates that Control Council Law No. 10 has indeed unconditionally condemned, as a crime against humanity, every instance of the deportation of civilians. Under this subsection, there would seem to be no room for argument as to the legality of any agreement on the part of any government, legitimate or illegitimate, which allows deportation in time of war of its subjects.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3044, "page_number": "2442", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "We come now to a consideration of the crime of enslavement. Whereas Article II (b) names deportation to slave labor as a war crime, Article II (1) (c) states that the \"enslavement\" .....(of) any civilian population\" is a crime against humanity. Thus, Law No. 10 treats as separate crimes and different types of crime \"deportation to slave labor\" and \"enslavement.\"\nArticle II (b) does not specify as a crime the detention (as distinguished from the deportation) of civilians for use as slave labor or for any other purpose. However, the section does stipulate that any a trocities or offenses against persons which constitute violations of the laws or customs of war, including but not limited to deportation to slave labor, are war crimes. Use or detention of persons from occupied territories for slave labor or for any other purpose, in and of themselves, do constitute violations of the laws and customs of war. Ergo, such use or detention is a war crime within II (1) (b) of Law Number 10.\nThe crime against humanity which is termed \"enslavement\" in Article II (1) (c) of Law Number 10 is susceptible cf two meanings. It can be understood to embrace the initial act of deprivation of the freedom of another, and an act whereby such deprivation is continued, or either of them, or it may be interpreted as referring only to the initial measures whereby a person is deprived of his freedom.\nIt is the contention of the Prosecution in this case that all phases of the slave labor program, the taking, the transpertating, the detention, the use and the inhumane treatment of foreign workers as practiced by the Nazi state and participated in by the defendant, constitute enslavement within the meaning of Article II (1) (c). No sufficient reason appears for the limitation of the crime to the mere initial act.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3045, "page_number": "2443", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "In every true and complete sense a person is enslaved from the moment when his liberty is taken from him until the time when it is restored to him. It is more than probable that if Law No. 10 is intended to limit the crime of enslavement to the initial measures under which a person was deprived of his liberty, there would have been some definite indication, either in the language or in the context of the statute to so indicate.\nEven if we were to concede the narrowest possible meaning for the term \"enslavement\" in Article II (1) (c), so as to understand by it only the first acts of deprivation of liberty, all acts under which such people were kept in an enslaved status would be crimes against humanity, because the same section defines as such any atrocities and offenses committed against civilian population. By express provise \"enslavement\" and \"deportation\" are only illustratively mentioned, and \"other inhumane acts committed against any civilian population\" constitute crimes against humanity.\nThe result is that whether we adopt the broad interpretation of the term \"enslavement\" or the narrower one, the deportation, the transportation, the retention, the use and the inhumane treatment of civilian populations are crimes against humanity. The Prosecution charges that the defendant was criminally connected with all the phases of the slave labor program, whether these division be comprehended within the technical term \"enslavement\" or be divided between the crime of \"enslavement\" and that of \"other inhumane acts.\"\nWe shall now make brief comment on the subject of the treatment and use of prisoners of war. The Hague and Geneva Conventions merely codify the precepts of the laws and usuages of all civilized nations, Article 31 of the Geneva Convention provides that \"labor furnished by prisoners of war shall have no direct relation to war operations.\"", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3046, "page_number": "2444", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "Thus the Convention forbids:\n1. The use of prisoners of war in manufacture or transportation of arms or munitions of any kind, and 2. The use for transporting material intended for combat units.\nThe Hague regulations certain comparable provisions.\nThe essence of the crime of the misuse of prisoners of war derives from the kind of work to which they are assigned -in other words, to work directly connected with the war effort. The Prosecution would like to recall to the court the evidence which connects the defendant, with both the illegal employment of prisoners of war and with their abusive treatment. The Tribunal will recall that the defendant ordered the murder of prisoners of war who attempted to escape. We will discuss this crime more fully later. It will be remembered that there never has been a substantial denial of the fact that prisoners of war were used to man German anti-aircraft batteries. Nor is it subject to doubt that prisoners were used in air armament Industries over which the defendant exercised supervisory control.\nWe now come to the consideration of the basic charges and the law governing tho defendant's complicity in, and responsibility for, the medical experiments program. The fundamental crime with which the defendant is charged in this connection is murder. Also involved are various atrocities, tortures, offenses against the parson, and ether inhumane acts.\nThe applicable provisions of Control Council Law No. 10, Article II , are (b) war crimes, (c) crimes against humanity. In connection with the criminal medical experiments program, the Prosecution submits that the defendant is guilty of:\nA) War crimes, namely violations of the laws and customs of war, as the medical experiments performed upon involuntary persons, some of them nations of countries at war with the German Reich, involved the commission of murders, tortures and other inhumane acts.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3047, "page_number": "2445", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "b) Crimes against humanity, namely medical experiments performed upon involuntary German nations and nations of other countries, in the course of which, brutalities, murders and other inhumane acts were committed.\nBefore we pass from the law involved in this case to a consideration of the evidence, we wish to mention the legal basis for the Prosecution's contention that the defendant must share the guilt which attaches to the slave labor program and the conduct of medical experiments upon unconsenting human beings. Control Council Law No. 10 defines for us the theory upon which this trial proceeds in Article II, paragraph 2, when it says:\n\"Any person without regard to nationality or the capacity in which ho acted, is doomed to have committed a crime as defined in paragraph 1 of this article, if he was (a) a principle or (b) was an accessory to the commission of any such crime or ordered or better the same or (c) took a consenting part therein, or (d) was connected with plans or enterprises involving its commission or (c) was a member of any organization or group connected with, the commission of any such crime. ........\"\nWithout wishing to limit the scope of the testimony in this case, the Tribunals attention is directed to the evidence which has established that the defendant, as a member of the Central Planning Board, and the Jaegerstab and as Generalluftseugmeister and in every one of his capacities was connected with \"plans and enterprises\" for the commission of war crimes and crimes against humanity, and was a \"member of organ izations and groups\", within the meaning of subdivisions (d) and (e) of paragraph 2, \"connected with the commission of such crimes\".Count one, paragraph 6 of the Indictment charges the defendant Milch with guilt in the murder of prisoners of war who had attempted to escape from enforced labor in German war industry.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3048, "page_number": "2446", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "The gist of this crime is murder is, and always had been, prohibited by every country which laid any claim to civilization. It was specified as a war crime under the Hague and Geneva Conventions and under the provisions of Article II of Council Law No. 10. The evidence which connects the defendant with this crime will be discussed in another part of this summation.\nLaw Number 10, article II, paragraph 3 provides that the death penalty or lesser sentences may be prescribed for the commission of war crimes and crimes against humanity as defined in the statute.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3049, "page_number": "2447", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "We turn now from the law to the evidence. In the presentation of its case in chief, the Prosecution first offered evidence to describe the slave labor program in Germany in all its stark terror. It then turned to a presentation of the proof which connected the defendant with the slave labor program in two of his principal capacities, as member of the Central Planning Board and as member of the Jaegerstab. Next there was put in evidence the documents which established defendant's connection with the medical experiments, and finally after the defense had put in its case, the defendant was confronted with the evidence of additional documents which connected him with the detention and mistreatment of slave labor in his capacity as Generalluftzeugmeister. In summing up the evidence the prosecution wants to keep roughly the same order. It will deal in turn with the evidence of the defendant's activities as member of the Central Planning Board and as member of the Jaegerstab. The documents relating to defendant as Generalluftzeugmeister will then be dealt with and in conclusion, the defendant's implication in the criminal medical experiments will be discussed.\nWhen, in the course of presenting the evidence, we first turned our attention from the general documents which established the body of the crime of slave labor to the documents which were to prove the defendant's connection with that crime, we asked the court's attention to certain key words which we said would run like small threads through our proof. These words were cited to be \"procurement, allocation and use\". It was stated that we would often use them. We offered many documents to prove Milch's connection with each of the functions described by these key words. Once again, we ask the Tribunal to keep these words in mind.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3050, "page_number": "2448", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "The Central Planning Board, which was established in April 1942, served as a means of consolidating in a single agency all controls over German war production. The minutes of the Central Planning Board which have been submitted to the Tribunal reflect the dominant role played by the defendant at meetings of the Board.\nThe best evidence of the scope and authority of the Central Planning Board is contained in the Board's own minutes. The first conference of the Central Planning Board was held on April 27th, 1942. The duties and responsibilities of the Board were announced in these words:\n\"The Central Planning in the Four-Year Plan (decree of the Reich Marshall of greater Germany of April 22, 1942), is a task for leaders. It encompasses only principles and executive natters. It makes unequivocal decisions and supervises the execution of its directives. The Central Planning does not rely on anonymous institutions difficult to control but always on individuals and fully responsible persons who are free in the selection of their working methods and their collaborations, as far as there are no directives issued by the Central Planning.\" Then, six months later, on October 20th, 1942, the statutes of the Central Planning Board were published and distributed. A portion of these states?\n\"The Central Planning board created by the Fuehrer and Reich Marshall in order to unify armament and war economy deals only with the decision of basic questions. Professional questions remain the task of the competent departments which in their field remain responsible within the framework of the decisions made by the Central Planning Board.\"\n\"The highest Reich authorities, the Reich Protector, the Governor General and the Executive authorities in the occupied countries.\"", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3051, "page_number": "2449", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "The letter of transmittal stated in part:\nEnclosed I send you for your information the statutes of the Central Planning Board with the request to support the office of the Central Planning Board in every possible way in its work, and to direct, more particularly, to your section chiefs and reporters to forward all information requested orally or by writing, in the shortest possible time. By this collaboration by your section chiefs and reporters, the building up of larger machinery in the framework of the Central Planning Board is to be avoided.\"\nThe International Military Tribunal found that the Central Planning Board: \"had supreme authority for the scheduling of German production and the allocation and development of raw material.\"\nIt needs no emphasis chat the effective performance of these functions necessarily involved the Board in the requisitioning and distribution of labor, and the records of the Board which have been submitted leave no doubt that the Board exercised the authority conferred upon it in the field of labor. The International Military Tribunal in its opinion found that the Board requisitioned labor from Sauckel with full knowledge that the demands could be supplied only by foreign forced labor and that the Board determined the basic allocation of this labor within the German war economy.\nIn accessing the guilt of the defendant Funk, the Court said:\n\"In the fall of 1943, Funk was a member of the Central Planning Board which determined the total number of laborers needed for German industry, and required Sauckel to produce them, usually by deportation from 2449a occupied territories.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3053, "page_number": "2450", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "Funk did not appear to be particularly interested in this aspect of the forced labor program, and usually sent a deputy to attend the meetings, often SS Gen. Ohlendorf, the former Chief cf the SD inside cf Germany and the Commander of EinstzgruppoD.But Funk was aware that tic Board cf which he was a member was demanding the importation of slave laborers, and allocating them to the various industries under its control.\"\nBearing in mind the fact that Funk was a minor member cf the Board, now much greater is the responsibility of the defendant who was a dominant figure on the Board throughout its existence.\nThere is no need to review in historical detail the defendant's personal participation in the criminal activities cf the Board. A few references to the pattern for 1944 will suffice. The Tribunal will recall that Albert Spoor, the other dominant member of the Board, was ill during most of this period.\nOn January 1944, demands were made at a Hitler conference that Sauckel produce four million new workers from the occupied countries. The defendant was present at the conference, and at this meeting, Sauckel, in pledging himself to perform his recruitment tusks, indicated that the demands could be mot only by Himmler, and the promise of assistance was forthcoming from the Reich Fuehrer SS.\nThe allocation cf this labor to the various sectors of the German economy was determined by the Board at its 53rd meeting. The defendant was the presiding officer at this meeting. The chart compiled by Milch and found in his files shows his personal knowledge of the sources cf the labor being allocated.", "speakers": [ "D." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3054, "page_number": "2451", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "Sauckel was, however, unable to satisfy completely these demands. He reported this inability at its 54th Meeting. This Meeting of the Board was presided over by the defendant, and the minutes which we have submitted show the subordinate position occupied by Sauckel with respect to the Board. The Tribunal will recall Sauckel's opening statement:\n\"Field Marshal, Gentlemen, it goes without saying that we shall satisfy as far as possible the demands agreed upon by the Central Planning Board.\" And then later on in the meeting:\n\"If I am to fulfill the demands which you present to me...\"\nWe shall not review in detail the minutes of this meeting, but the Tribunal's attention is again directed to the fact that Sauckel was questioned closely by the defendant who suggested that the Wehrmacht be assigned to the task of assisting in the recruitment drive. The defendant suggested that French workers be coerced by a system of premediated starvation. In dealing with the problem of Italian laborers, the defendant suggested that only those who went to Germany or worked in protected factories be given food.\nAs a further moans of meeting the manpower shortage, consideration was given to possible measures for increasing the productive power of prisoners of war. Accordingly, on 5 March 1944, a conference was held at the Fuehrer Headquarters. It is evident from the minutes which have been submitted to the Tribunal that the defendant was in attendance. The Tribunal will recall that the decision was made to give the direction of the Stalags to the SS, in order to increase the production power of the prisoners. This was not to apply to the Americans or the English.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3055, "page_number": "", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "The Tribunal will take judicial notice of the methods of the SS.\n2451a On 7 July 1944, Sauckel issued a report showing new manpower placed at the disposal of German war industry during the first half of 1944.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3056, "page_number": "2452", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "We shall not review in detail this report, but merely state that it is proof of the Board's directive to Sauckel.\nThis report, however, showed a deficit, and on 11 July 1944 a further conference was held to solve the question of how greater compulsion could be exerted on persons to work in Germany. The defendant has testified that he was in virtual retirement from production matters since late June 1944. Yet, the record of this conference shows that he was present. The result of this conference was the greater utilization of the Wehrmacht in the recruitment of forced labor. The directive of Field Marshall von Kluge, which has been submitted in evidence, makes specific reference to the r suits of this conference.\nHere, in brief, we have the picture. The defendant and the Board of which he was a dominant member requisitioning forced labor from Sauckel, allocating this labor to the various sectors of the German war economy, and later improvising new and more brutal techniques of force and terror for the recruitment of new labor.\nThe defense, besides denying the power and authority of the Central Planning Board, has challenged the authenticity and accuracy of its transcripts. The Prosecution has been compelled to rely upon these minutes for much of its proof.\nIn t is connection, it might be said that these same transcripts constituted the basis for finding of fact by the International Military Tribunal. They are quoted in the decision of that Court.\nThe Statutes of the Central Planning Board, mentioned a few minutes ago, show the extreme care taken to insure the accuracy of the reporting these meetings, as well as action taken or ordered to be taken.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3057, "page_number": "2453", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "The Statutes of the Board provide in part:\n\"In order to have the conferences properly prepared and to have the execution of the decisions supervised, the Central Planning Board appoints an office. This office consists of the deputies appointed by each of three members of the Central Planning Board; one of these three deputies shall be appointed chief of the office.\" Then follows a handwritten marginal note which I shall omit.\n\"In accordance with the attached distribution of work the office appoints reporters. These reporters are at the disposal of all members of the Central Planning Board. The office appoints one reporter to keep the record.\"\nAnd then, Tasks of the Office? The office prepares the meetings of the Central Planning Board in such a manner that the members of the Central planning Board have the agenda and the material of discussion 24 hours in advance. For this purpose the office conducts preliminary talks with the competent departments, etc.\nOn the strength of the record made by the reporter, the office sees to the execution of the decisions of the Central Planning Board by the competent agencies, and sees to it that the deadlines fixed are complied with.\nThe members of the office keep the members of the Central Planning Board informed between the sessions.\"\nThe minutes of these meetings which have been submitted to this Tribunal show that these proceedings were recorded and transcribed with characteristic German detail and accuracy. We need only refer to the charts and tables, and the remarks quoted in the transcripts. Of the 59 meetings fully covered by these official reports, 41 were prepared and signed by Ministerialrat Steffler -- who was personally responsible for the accuracy and completeness of these reports.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3058, "page_number": "2454", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "Without the Central Planning Board the slave labor program could not have functioned.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Shall we take a recess before reading some more?\nMR. DENNEY:This might be a good time.\nTHE MARSHALL:The Tribunal is in recess fifteen minutes.\n(A recess was taken.)", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHALL", "MR. DENNEY", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3059, "page_number": "2455", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "THE MARSHALL:Tribunal Number Two is again in session.\nMR. DENNY:If it pleases your Honors--the Jaegerstab. Here we have tho defendant in immediate contact with the slave labor program at its peak. By tho testimony of tho defendant, it was he who conceived and instigated the formation of the Jaegerstab. Speer and the defendant constituted its loadership. Speer's participation was nominal and it was tho defendant who directed its activities and acted as its chairman. Speer was ill during part of tho Jaegerstab's existence and has stated to the Court that he did not preside at a meeting.\nThe Jaegerstab assumed control over fighter production when the exploitation of foreign forced labor in air armament had already reached unparralleled heights. On February 18, 1944, tho defendant had told his colleagues in tho Central Planning Board that \"our best now engine is made 88% by Russian prisoners of war\". On March 25, he told his engineers that seen the percentage of foreign personnel in tho aircraft industry would roach 90%. Reich Fuehrer of the SS Himmler, reporting to Goering on March 9, 1944, an the employment of concentration camp personnel in tho aircraft industry, stated that nearly 36,000 prisoners were employed and that an increase to 90,000 was expected. The formation of the Jaegerstab is partly explainable in terms of tho battle to increase the man power resources available for fighter production.\nTho Jaegerstab was assigned top priority. Projects for tho recruitment and commitment of manpower were discussed by tho Jaegerstab. The evidence presented before the Tribunal has shown that questions of manpower were time and tine again referred to tho defendant. No have soon him agreeing to use his prestige and influence upon Sauckel in efforts to obtain now workers for aircraft production. When manpower in sufficient numbers was not forthcoming through normal channels, tho Jaegerstab did not shrink from other methods of obtaining its labor. When necessary, tho Jaegerstab recruited its own labor, either directly or by engineering \"snatching\" expeditions for tho seizure of manpower arriving on transports from tho East.", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHALL", "MR. DENNY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3060, "page_number": "2456", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "The defendant's frank admission to his subordinates that \"International Law cannot be observed here\" characterizes best his own participation in the activities of the Jaegerstab. Where, as was the case with France, transfers of production facilities were concerned, the defendant advocated tho stripping of tho country and the deportation of its people as PW's. When tho discussion turned to PW's, tho defendant was quick to suggest their transfer to places under air attack. When the transportation of Italian civilian conscripts directly recruited by tho Jaegerstab for service in Gemany was in question, it was tho defendant who advocated tho shooting of these who attempted to escape.\nThe Jaegerstab was no more discussion group. As an agency with absolute authority over fighter production, the Jaegerstab acted by orders and directives. The Jaegerstab fixed hours of labor and conditions of work. It was tho Jaegerstab, for example, which established tho 72-hour work week in tho aircraft industry.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3061, "page_number": "2457", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "In addition to its jurisdiction over fighter production, the Jaegerstab was charged with the program for the decentralization of the German aircraft industry, both to above ground bombproof installations and to subterranean locations. Much of the labor employed in both chases of the project was concentration camp labor. The defendant must have known this fact.\nOne phase, the transfer to new installations under ground, was under the immediate supervision of SS Gruppenfuehrer Heinz Kammler. Kammler was a member of the Jaegerstab. Where, as was the case in some instances, labor was not forthcoming in sufficient quantity, Kammler informed the Jaegerstab of his intention to take large numbers of persons into protective custody for use on his projects. Members of the Jaegerstab knew that manpower shortages on the construction projects were at least in part due to the high death rate. The conditions of employment on the projects have not been substantially disputed. The Jaegerstab was well informed of these conditions. While on trips with the Jaegerstab, Kammler visited these projects and his fellow members of the Jaegerstab were well advised as to the manner in which workers employed on them were treated. Where it was necessary to hand thirty people merely as an example to others, Kammler reported this fact to the Jaegerstab.\nA second phase of the program, the transfer of fighter production to bombproof factories above ground, was carried out for the Jaegerstab by Stobbe-Dethleffson and later Xavier Dorsch. While Stobbe-Dethleffson and Dorsch were immediately in charge, it was the Jaegerstab which received the funds and raw materials necessary for the carrying out of this project. When sufficient progress had not been made under Stobb-Detbleffson, the Jaegerstab demanded that Dorsch carry out this program. The defendant was a leader in the planning which preceded Borsch's appointment.\nBy the testimony of Dorsch, Milch was one of a small group present at Goering's at which details of the project were worked out, including the question of manpower. Dorsch was represented on the Jaegerstab by Schlempp, and later Knipping, deputies designated for this particular purpose.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3062, "page_number": "2458", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "Schlempp informed the Jaegerstab on the progress of the work, bot orally and in writing. Dorsch received manpower from the Jaegerstab, This was the immediate concern of Schmelter.\nEarly in April 1944 the defendant represented the Jaegerstab at conferences with Hitler where the decision was first taken to carry out deportations. Shortly thereafter, the defendant received written confirmation of the results of this conference, as did Himmler, who was to procure the workers. Progress reports were made and delivery dates agreed upon. Then came the disappointing news that the first transports arriving at Auschwitz consisted primarily of old men, women, and children. Later on there were reports as to the successful allocation of this personnel. The testimony of Dorsch shows that these Jews were used on the construction projects, that the conditions under which they lived were intolerable, and that the death rate on the project was excessive.\nIn closing this phase of the case, it is submitted that the defendant never resigned from the Jaegerstab. While it is true that the defendant at Goering's behest was removed from certain offices in the Air Ministry in the summer of 1944, he retained his membership in the Jaegerstab until its dissolution, the prosecution contends.\nAs Generalluftzeugmeister, the defendant had complete control over aircraft production. In this field his authority was unlimited. In particular it has been shown that the defendant requisitioned labor for the aircraft industry with knowledge of the brutal and inhumane techniques employed in recruiting those laborers and that he gave directives for the criminal treatment of these laborers at the centers of production.\nThere is evidence that the defendant presented the labor demands of the aircraft industry to Sauckel. The Tribunal will recall that in his affidavit Sauckel stated that it was the defendant who produced the manpower figures for aviation. In view of the position occupied by Sauckel in the slave labor program, this statement is of special importance.\nThe statement of Sauckel is in agreement with the statements of Hermann Goering, the defendant's superior in the Luftwaffe. In his inter rogation the former Reich Marshal stated that the defendant was in charge of the division for labor employment in the Air Ministry and that the industry demands for labor in air armament were made by the defendant.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3063, "page_number": "2459", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "Even the defendant's collaborator Albert Speer testified to the same effect when he stated:\n\"The requests cf the air armament industry for laborers were presented by Milch and he did not permit anyone to take this right away from him until March 1944.\"\nThe defendant as Generalluftzeugmeister was acquainted with the methods employed in recruiting this manpower. In fact, many of the practices indulged in by Sauckel were formulated at conferences at which the defendant was in attendance. The Tribunal will recall that the defendant was present at a conference in which Goering announced his plan to use the Luftwaffe in the recruitment drive to capture laborers in Holland. The Tribunal's attention is also drawn to the Generalluftzeugmeister meeting of 25 January 1944 in which methods for the more expeditious deportation of young Czechs for work in the Luftwaffe were discussed.\nThe defendant also knew that prisoners cf war and concentration camp personnel were included in the manpower he was requisitioning and distributing to the aircraft industry. We have seen him trying to increase their numbers in the industry under his control, and we have seen him ordering and abetting the inhumane treatment of this labor.\nAs chief of aircraft production, the defendant regulated the treatment of foreign forced labor in the German aircraft industry. The defendant fixed hours of labor and conditions of work and by directives to his subordinates set basic policies for the handling of this labor within the industry.\nWhere foreign workers refused to work the defendant ordered that they be shot. When these wretched slaves attempted to revolt, the defendant directed that some of their numbers be killed, regardless of personal guilt or innocence. In the case of prisoners of war who attempted to escape, the defendant ordered that they be shot.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3064, "page_number": "2460", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "When the \"contracts\" of workers under his control expired, the defendant ordered their compulsory extension, and when workers attempted to change jobs, he advocated that they be put in concentration camps.\nIn the case of Italians who refused to work, the defendant ordered that they be beaten end so informed his chief, Goering. And where French men refused to work in French factories under his control, the defendant stated that he would deport them by force and bring them to Germany or to the East. Similar policies were applied by the defendant in the case of Polish workers.\nNo more need he said about the Generalluftzeugmeister. The Tribunal has seen the documents detailing the minutes of their meetings. The documents dealing with this phase of the case are particularly revealing in showing the fanaticism of the defendant and the enthusiasm with which he recommended ruthless treatment of the hapless victims of German occupation policies.\nWe will now restate the pattern originally presented in terms of the proof brought forward at the trial in order to ascertain to what extent the defendant's culpability has been established with reference to the medical phase.\nFirst, the body of the crime. The prosecution contends that in violation of the laws of war and all the laws of humanity criminal high altitude and freezing experiments were carried on by Luftwaffe physicians.\nThe testimony of Dr. Erich Hippke, the medical Inspector of the Luftwaffe, is of interest on this subject. Hippke stated that Dr. Rascher, a Luftwaffe physician at the time, came to Hippke with a proposal to use prisoners as high altitude experimental subjects in May 1941.\nHippke was in a receptive frame of mind for it was essential that the scope of these experiments he widened and new human subjects were needed. The researchers working on the tests had developed a certain immunity so that results of self-experimentation did not give a true picture of the reactions.\nWith the aid of Himmler and the SS the Luftwaffe was able to proceed with the experiments which were allegedly necessary in the interests of German military aviation medical knowledge.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3065, "page_number": "2461", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "But lest one be inclined to believe that these pressure experiments were considered as minor nuisances to the subjects concerned, with no real dangers, note the words of Dr. Hippke:\n\"I asked him,\" speaking of Rascher, \"how he would be able to obtain such persons for experimentation, and he justified himself by saying that he had connections with the SS who had charge of such penal Prisoners. There were such penal prisoners in Dachau and he would be in a positron to obtain them for these purposes. I myself, because of my inner personal feelings on the matter, was very much against these experiments and could not make up my mind whether I should approve such experimentation.\"\nFrom the very beginning of the plan to conduct these experiments Dr. Hippke had strong mental reservations concerning the moral principles involved in the task which the Luftwaffe doctors were about to undertake. During the coming year Hippke weighed the problem, and it was with sime misgiving that he finally allowed his doctors to begin the experiments, saying to then: \"Please, children, go carefully.\"\nBut, tragically enough, his \"children\" did not go carefully. Instead, they ran amuck with their scientific apparatus and tests. The pressure experiments which were supposed to have been helpful to fliers of the Luftwaffe degenerated into so-called \"X-experiments\", which meant \"execution\" experiments.\nSeventy to eighty persons were murdered during the spring and summer of 1942 when the pressure experiments were carried on at Dachau.\nDuring the subsequent freezing experiments a comparable number of concentration camp inmates forfeited their lives to the sadistic Dr. Rascher and his Luftwaffe associates.\nDr. Romberg himself admits having seen three persons die in the low pressure chamber mud concedes that at least nine other deaths nay well have occurred when he was absent from his post at Dachau.\nWolfram Sievers, the manager of the Ahnenerbe, the SS Research Institute, witnessed the death of an experimental subject in the freezing tank.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3066, "page_number": "2462", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "There is adequate evidence that the low pressure and freezing experiments were carried out by Luftwaffe physicians for the benefit of the Luftwaffe. There has been no valid denial of the fact that the defendant was the Luftwaffe official responsible for the deaths and cruelties suffered in these twin torture chambers, the pressure chamber and the freezing tank.\nNow, let us examine in more detail the second basic charge of the prosecution, viz., that the defendant was officially connected with these experiments which violated the laws of war and humanity.\nWe have the \"Wolffy\" letter of 20 May 1942 in which the defendant tells Obergruppenfuehrer Wolff of the SS that \"the altitude experiments carried out by the SS and the Luftwaffe at Dachau have been finished.\" In this same letter Milch announces that experiments in connection with perils on the high seas would be important; that the necessary arrangements have been made and, since the low pressure chamber is no longer needed, it must be moved from Dachau. Thus the defendant has entered the picture and established his official correction with the high altitude experiments end the low temperature experiments, which proved to be considerable more then mere harmless chilling tests.\nIf, as the defendant contends, he was not officially responsible for these Luftwaffe medical experiments, then it should follow that other Persons connected with them would not take cognizance of the defendant in this matter. The contention is ridiculous.\nThe witness Wolff had the following to say regarding a meeting he had With Milch in August or September 1942:\n\"Thereafter, we had discussed our official questions. I inquired about how he was and if everything between the Luftwaffe end the SS was all right. During that occasion we also spoke about these experiments very shortly, if at all, and we spoke of the invaluable help which the SS was giving us by providing these voluntary inmates, which was helping us with our medical material and which could be used at the front.\"\nIt is to be noted that they talked about the experiments and Wolff asked how the Luftwaffe-SS relations were. It is submitted that this demonstrates that Wolff regarded the defendant as the top man in the Luftwaffe medical experiments program, as indeed he was.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3067, "page_number": "2463", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "Then there are the two letters addressed to Milch by Himmler and Wolff, substantially alike in content. Himmler's, dated November 1942, in which he cites the opposition that exists among \"Christian medical circles\" to conducting experiments on helpless, involuntary concentration camp inmates. He refers to the narrow-mindedness of such medical men, which \"will take at least another ten years\" to remove. But this narrowmindedness did not trouble the consciences of Himmler or the defendant Milch. Decidedly not. In the words of the Reich Fuehrer SS: \"We two should not get angry about these difficulties.\"\nThe prosecution submits that Himmler would not have written a letter in this tenor unless he was certain that his good friend Milch would be in complete agreement with his views.\nAnd how did Himmler regard Milch in connection with the experiments? As a casual on-looker, with a purely academic interest in the results obtained? No, Himmler knew that Milch possessed the overall command, the ultimate authority in the Luftwaffe; that the Inspector General of the Luftwaffe was the man to refer to whenever a question arose as to the disposition of the pressure chamber or the status of Dr. Rascher. Witness Himmler's request in his letter:\n\"I beg you to release Dr. Rascher, Stabsarzt in reserve, from the Air Force and to transfer him to me to the Waffen SS. I would then assume the sole responsibility for having these experiments made in this field and would out the results, which we in the SS need only for the frost injuries in the Last, entirely at the disposal of the Air Force.\"\nThe logical corollary to this statement is inescapable. If Rascher was not transferred to the SS and remained with the Air Force, the responsibility would not be Himmler's alone. And we must remember that Rascher did not leave his Luftwaffe post until the year 1943 after the experimental atrocities had been largely completed. Then where did this responsibility rest? Himmler had not doubts, it was on the shoulders of the defendant Nor did Karl WOLFF, HIMMLER's right hand man, have any doubts as to the responsible person in the Luftwaffe, with reference to the medical experiments.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3068, "page_number": "2464", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "He, too, wrote to MILCH requesting that RASCHER be released from the Luftwaffe and transferred to the SS. Here was a man, who, by his own testimony, \"had a good comradely relationship\" with the defendant. On the direct examination, WOLFE testified regarding his connection with MILCH:\n\"Q. In your position during the war did you have any official dealings with Mr. MILCH?\n\"A. Yes.\nQ.In what connection?\nA.During peacetime --that is, from 1933 on, until 1939 -there was a personal cooperation between MILCH and me. All difficulties between the Luftwaffe and the SS were handled at personal conferences in a very comradely way. This usage also took place during the war.\"\nIt is because of the situation above described, that the prosecution has called WOLFF the liaison man between HELLER and the SS on the one hand, and defendant and the Luftwaffe, on the other.\nThe testimony and affidavit of Walter NEFF, the Dachau prisoner who later became a Block Leader in Dachau, is of interest. This man saw RASCHER often. Was MILCH's name mentioned by RASCHER in connection with the medical experiments? It was. In his affidavit, which he did not repudiate when testifying before this Court, NEFF said:\n\"The name of Field Marshal MILCH was frequently mentioned in Dachau. Every time I asked Dr. ROMBERG how long the cars and the low pressure chambers would remain in Dachau, he assured me that MILCH would attend to everything. Dr. RASCHER said to me that he had communicated with MILCH personally and that the cars would remain in Dachau as long as he specified.\"", "speakers": [ "Q.", "A." ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3069, "page_number": "", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "Dr. Siegfried RUFF, an important figure in the medical experiments program, head of the Research Section of the DVL, recognized the defendant MILCH as the supreme authority in the experimental program. In his affidavit RUFF said:\n2464(a) \"The entire medical research for aviation was under General Erich HIPPKE, in his capacity as Chief of the Medical Service until 1944 and subsequently under Prof.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3070, "page_number": "2465", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "Dr. SCHROEDER. As Chief of the Medical Service, General HIPPKE was immediately subordinate to Field Marshal MILCH ... The chain of command for these experiments was: MILCH - HIPPKE - RUFF - Romberg.\"\nAgain there is the chart drawn up by Dr. Oskar SCHROEDER, outlining the official Luftwaffe channels through which orders flowed from MILCH to HIPPKE, and from HIPPKE to the various doctors engaged in the actual process of experimentation SCHROEDER thus knew definitely that MILCH was the Luftwaffe Chief in the medical experiments program. He later succeeded HIPPKE as Medical Inspector. Consequently, his chart is entitled to material weight in the proof offered by the Prosecution.\nRudolf BRANDT adjutant to HIMMLER, often had occasion to deal with correspondence between the Luftwaffe and the SS, regarding the experiments. In referring to HIMMLER's request that MILCH order Dr. RASCHER to be transferred to the SS, BRANDT wrote a letter to Wolfram SIEVERS, of the Ahnenerbe Society, stating:\n\" I assume that the General Field Marshal will of himself give the necessary orders, and then confine himself to sending a brief answer to the Reich Fuehrer SS.\"\nAnd SIEVERS writing to BRANDT about the use of the low pressure chamber says:\n\"The putting at our disposal of the low pressure chamber, however, will be possible then only if the Reich Fuehrer SS writes in per son to Field Marshal MILCH concerning this.\"\nThese two men, SIEVERS and BRANDT, were not informed of the course of the medical experiments nor of the competent personnel in the Luftwaffe and SS in t is matter. On the contrary, SIEVERS admitted witnessing the death of an experimental subject in the freezing tank, and the subsequent autopsy, while Rudolf BRANDT stated in his affidavit:", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3071, "page_number": "", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "2465(a) \"General Field Marshal E. Filch and Professor Hippke, Inspector of the Medical Service of the Luftwaffe, were fully informed about the low pressure experiments.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3072, "page_number": "2466", "date": "23 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-23", "text": "Actually these experiments could not had been conducted without the knowledge and approval of these men as they were conducted for the benefit of the Luftwaffe and the experimenting persons were mostly Luftwaffe physicians.\"\nIn the eyes of other persons, the defendant was the dominant force behind the Luftwaffe participation in the medical experiments program. The Defense has brought forward an adequate proof to show that they were mistaken. It is conviction of the Prosecution that no such proof exists.\nThe Supreme Commander of the Luftwaffe, the Reich Marshal Herman Goering, was thoroughly familiar with the organization which was his brainchild, the Luftwaffe and the way it functioned. What importance did Milch's position have in Goering's mind.\nHis affidavit reads:\n\"Included among the responsibilities of the Office of the Inspector General was the conduct of all research and experiments and of all matters pertaining to health and sanitation inspection...\n* * * * * That Generaloberstabsarzt Erich Hippke was the Sanitation Inspector of the Luftwaffe during the period from 1941 through 1944, that the Office of the Sanitation Inspector was directly responsible for the conduct of all research and medical experiments; that the Office of the Sanitation Inspector, of which Generaloberstabsarzt Erich Hippke was the head, was directly subordinate to the Inspector General, former Field Marshal Filch, and that former Field marshal Milch was responsible for all actions taken by Generaloberstabsarzt Hippke, or by the Office of the Sanitation Inspector or its subordinates.\"\nIt has been established that criminal experiments, high altitude and freezing, were carried on at Dachau by Luftwaffe physicians, working under the orders and supervision of competent Luftwaffe authorities.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3073, "page_number": "2467", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "We have shown that all Luftwaffe personnel connected with, or knowing about those experiments from those closest to the place where the experiments were conducted, i.e. Dr. Rascher, and Walter Neff, to those high up in the positions of command, Goering and Schroeder, looked to Milch as the ultimate authority in the medical experiments program. An investigation of the attitudes and convictions of the SS officials concerned in this program, discloses the same picture.\nCould all these men have been mistaken? Nero they writing to and referring to the wrong man, when they contacted the defendant? To put forward such a proposition is to deny the facts. There was no error, the facts arc indisputable.\nThe defendant was and is official responsible for the medical experiments program of the Luftwaffe.\nLastly we come to the question of the defendant's knowledge of the experiments which were being carried out at Dachau for the Luftwaffe.\nThroughout direct examination by his Defense Counsel, the defendant has consistently denied receiving reports authored by Rascher, or in any other way being informed of the criminal nature of these experiments, until the time of this trial.\nHowever, he was very much interested in altitude experiment as such, viz: The following excerpt from his testimony under questioning by Dr. Bergold:\n\"Q. Witness, how far were you interested in these high altitude experiments in question as GL?\nAWe were interested in the real altitude tests as I know it exactly, because I want to state this figure as 13,500 meters, and we added 500 meters in order to get a square figure.", "speakers": [ "A" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3074, "page_number": "", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "However, we know that this last 500 meters, which I had mentioned, we wore not too interested in that. We were only interested in the first place in cabin planes, too, after a certain test had been carried out on 388cabin suits, whether it did not succeed or fail, because a person could not move properly the way those suits wore, duo to low pressure up there in the air is felt much more than here on the ground.\"\n2467 a The Tribunal's attention is directed to this figure of 14,000 meters, which is approximately ten miles.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3075, "page_number": "2468", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "MILCH wanted that altitude simulated in the pressure chamber and the human reactions studied.\nIt was on 20 May 1942 that MILCH wrote his letter to WOLFF. Hero he said that HIPPKE had reported to him that the altitude experiments carried cut by the SS and Luftwaffe at Dachau were finished. Mention was made of RASCHER's availability for the forthcoming experiments dealing with sea perils. And MILCH stated that the low pressure chamber could no longer remain at Dachau. In this one letter, defendant demonstrates his knowledge that the SS and the Luftwaffe were conducting, and had completed, altitude experiments at Dachau and that Dr. RASCHER was involved There is the letter of 4 June 1942 to HIPPKE, wherein the defendant exhibits his authority in regard to the low pressure chamber and the tasks of Dr. RASCHER.\nOn 25 August 1942, HIMMLER wrote to defendant enclosing the report an the high altitude experiments. Moreover, he asked MILCH to receive Drs. RASCHER and ROMBERG for a lecture and presentation of the film on the experiments. HIMMLER suggested that MILCH refer the matter to the Reich Marshal \"because of its importance\".\nThis last statement should dispel any possible doubts as to the attention accorded these experiments by official German military circles. In fact, defendant himself admitted discussing the experiments with GOERING on 13 September 1942. The defendant spoke of HIMMLER's interest in the program, and the apprehension felt by the Medical Inspector, HIPPKE, although \"he did tell me that everything was all right.\" The disposal of the pressure chamber was settled in this talk with GOERING.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3076, "page_number": "2469", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "The defendant has said that the experiments, reports and other aspects of the matter were not known to him, partly because he had no time for this, and partly because he had no technical knowledge of the subject. He would have this Court believe that the experimental program was a minor natter -one that the Inspector General of the Luftwaffe would not pay close attention to. Yet we have seen that it was important enough so that HIMMLER was frequently corresponding with the defendant or others on the subject. It was important enough for defendant to bring the matter to GOERING's attention, even to the details of the disposition of the low pressure chamber.\nOn 31 August 1942, defendant wrote to HIMMLER, acknowledging receipt of the report on altitude experiments, and telling HIMMLER that he was \"informed about the current experiments\".\nWhile on the stand, the defendant attempted to explain this letter by referring to the usage of German Ministries, where the form \"I\" means the Ministry as such. But he admitted that he had written the closing sentences of this letter \"I\" remain yours, as ever, etc.\" Here ho did not deny that \"I\" was used in its ordinary sense. It is neither logical nor capable of belief that in the sane letter to HIMMLER, defendant would use the word \"I\" in two different senses.\nIt was also on the 31st of August 1942 that HIPPKE discussed the experiments with the defendant, expressing doubts and misgivings. In reply to MILCH's question, HIPPKE told him that those doubts had not been substantiated.\nThus it can be seen, from MILCH's testimony itself, that a cloud of suspicion and evil hovered over the entire medical experiments program.\nIt is useless, indeed futile, to punish the perpetrators of criminal acts on the one hand, and to ignore those in high positions who have made possible the commission of the crimes.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3077, "page_number": "2470", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "The defendant has belabored the term \"duty\" in the course of his testimony. He has spoken of his solemn oath to HITLER and to the German people. It would seem that it was incumbent upon the defendant to acquaint himself with the activities of his subordinates, at least to the extent that he should have known that people were being murdered in experiments, which from the evidence, were useless so far as the advancement of the knowledge of aviation medicine is concerned.\nThe present case is not without judicial precedent. A close analogy can be drawn between it and a recent case decided by the Supreme Court of the United States, in re YAMASHITA, Nos. 61 Miscellaneous and 672 - October term 1945. The procedural and jurisdictional questions therein decided arc of no moment to us now, but the facts of the YAMASHITA case are similar to those of the MILCH case, and the opinion rendered by the Court is particularly in point in the matter of responsibility for senior officers.\nGeneral YAMASHITA was the commanding general of the 14th Army Group of the Imperial Japanese Army in the Philippines.\nUpon surrendering to United States Forces, he was indicted and tried as a war criminal before a Military Tribunal on the following charge - \"while commander cf armed forces of Japan at war with tho United States of America and its Allies, unlawfully disregarded and failed to discharge his duty as commander to control the operations of the members of his command, permitting them commit brutal atrocities and other high crimes against people of the United States and of its Allies and dependencies, particularly the Philippines, and he.... thereby violated the laws of war.\"\nThe Court summed up the issue as follows:\n\"The question then is whether the law of war impo ses on an army commander a duty to take such appropriate measures as are within his power to control the troops under his command for the prevention of the specified acts which are violations of the law of war and which are likely to attend the occupation of hostile territory by an uncontrolled soldiery, and whether he may be charged with personal responsibility for his failure to take such measures when violations result.\"", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3078, "page_number": "2471", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "The Court cited Articles 1 and 43 of the Fourth Hague Convention of 1907, Article 19 of the Tenth Haguoe Convention, and Article 26 of the Geneva Rod Cross Convention of 1929. It then stated:\n\"These provisions plainly imposed on petitioner, who at the tine specified was military governor cf the Philippines, as well as commander of the Japanese forces, an affirmative duty to take such measures as were within his power and appropriate in the circumstances to protect prisoners of war and the civilian population. This duty of a commanding officer has heretofore been recognized and its breach penalized by our own military tribunals.\"\nThe Court thereupon denied the petition for certiorari, and leave to file petitions, for writs of haveas corpus and prohibition.\nIn the cases of the medical experiments, we have a much less complex situation. There is no question of a senior officer in an occupied country, rather we are faced with a simple direct chain of command problem. MILCH - FOERSTER HIPPKE. Had MILCH given the order, the experiments would have been terminated, but no order of termination was given - people were murdered and RASCHER remained in the Luftwaffe until he was transferred to the SS in March of 1943. The defendant had an affirmative duty to know what was going on, and an af firmative duty to act so as to stop the experiments.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3079, "page_number": "2472", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "That he was ignorant of the true state of affairs is unbelievable in view of the letters and the testimony of these who were below him. Field Marshals are not made as are non-connissioned officers. The road is a long one in any army from the position of private to the lofty peak of a Field Marshal.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3080, "page_number": "2473", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "The defendant would have you believe that his powers were similar to those of a private first class. Yet we have soon him, high in the councils, a confident of Hitler, one who could disagree with Goering, whose deputy he was on occasion, a man who was so thoroughly skilled a soldier that he seriously requested an assignment as a division commander although his service had been in the Air Force for a decade prior to the request. If the defendant was not the responsible officer in connection with the medical experiments, then the scourge of the Wehrmacht has not touched the Continent of Europe. There is no one who knows better than the defendant the principle of responsibility in any Army. By holding the office which he held, he had the duty to control the activities of those who were his subordinates, to insure that they conducted themselves as soldiers and not as murderers. He has failed woefully in the task.\nWe have concluded now our remarks regarding the criminal activities of the defendant in his various capacities with respect to the slave labor program and the medical experiments. It remains only for us to deal briefly with the defendant's participation in the murder of two Russian escapees, to discuss his defense of irresponsibility because of a bad temper to discuss the use of P.W.s and to touch upon the testimony of some of the witnesses who appeared in his behalf, and the record of the meeting of 23 May 1939.\nThe defendant has maintained that he knew nothing about the shooting of the two Russian officers who attempted to escape in February 1944. We have his own statement, made at a time when the general situation, from the Wehrmacht's point of view, was acute but not forlorn. The International Military Tribunal has stated at p. 17041 of its Judgment concerning Fritz SAUCKEL, speaking of a statement made by Sauckel at a Central Planning Board meeting, \"although he now claims that the statement is not true, the circumstances under which it was made, as well as the evidence presented before the Tribunal, leave no doubt that it was substantially accurate\". The word \"circumstances\" as there used refers to a meeting of the Central Planning Board on March 1, 1944. Milch made his statement at the prior meeting held on February 16, 1944 (53rd). The letters submitted by the Defense in connection with this episode are interesting.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3081, "page_number": "2474", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "The first and second from Schmidtke on 10 January and from Gangolf on 13 January refer to another similar incident other than that with which we are here concerned. The third letter from Winterstein on 12 January says nothing about the deaths. The affidavit of Predl, other than stating that the deaths occurred on a Saturday, is of no value. The witness Barthelmeus, who made an affidavit, though a resident of Nurnberg, was not called. The affidavits of Klein and Popp ware offered; each is in a prison camp in the American zona, yet neither was called. The letter of Janko recites the facts in a context suggestive of the words used by the defendant when he described the incident in the 53rd meeting on CPB on February 16, 1944. Here, too, it is submitted that the circumstances under which the statement was made, leave no doubt that it was substantially accurate. The defendant boasted of his prowess as a commander who ordered executions when he would impress those who curried his favor at the Central Planning Board meetings but now he says he had no authority to give orders and if he had given them, they would not have been obeyed.\nThe defendant has offered, as a plausible reason for the employment of Russian, French and Italian prisoners of war, the fact that various historical events made it unnecessary to abide by the terms of the Conventions concerning prisoners of war. The witness von Neurath testified that Russia had renounced the Conventions in question, and hence Germany could renounce them as to Russia. As for France, it is contended that the alleged government headed by Pierre Laval had concluded an arrangement with the Reich which made it legal to employ prisoners of war in tasks forbidden by the Conventions. A similar reason is advanced for the use of Italian Prisoners, the concluding of an arrangement between the Reich and Mussolini. The International Military Tribunal made a finding with respect to this matter (p. 16892). \"The argument in defense of the charge with regard to the murder and ill-treatment of Soviet prisoners of war, that the USSR was not a party to the Geneva Convention, is quite without foundation. On 15 September 1941, Admiral Canaris protested against the regulations for the treatment of Soviet prisoners of war, signed by General Reinecke on 8 September 1941.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3082, "page_number": "2475", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "I might add that Admiral Canaris was a member of the German navy. Resuming the quotation:\n\"He\"--Canaris--\"then stated: 'The Geneva Convention for the treatment of prisoners of war is not binding in the relationship between Germany and the USSR. Therefore only the principles of general international law on the treatment of prisoners apply. Since the 16th Century, there have gradually been established along the lines, that war captivity is neither revenge nor punishment, but solely protective custody, the only purpose of which is to prevent the prisoners of war from further participation in the war. This principle has developed in accordance with the view held by all armies that it is contrary to military tradition to kill or injure hapless people... The decrees for the treatment of Soviet Prisoners of war enclosed are based on a fundamentally different viewpoint' This protest, which correctly stated the legal position, was ignored\".\nThe defendant was a soldier of some experience, he know it was improper, even criminal, to have the Russian prisoners work in the Luftwaffe factories, but he paid no attention to the breach of this duty of the soldier. The manner in which the Reich bludgeoned a treaty from the French is too well known to warrant discussion. It cannot be contended with any seriousness that the French prisoners of war, who were negotiated into slavery by a puppet government, were voluntary employed of the Germans. Indeed the witness Le Friec has testified that when he was taken to work in the airplane factory, he was told that he would \"work on baby carriages\". The position of the defendant with reference to Italian prisoners of war and their illegal employment is still more absurd, if that is possible. The Wehrmacht had moved into Italy early in the war and in 1943, when the Badoglio government concluded an armistice with the Allies, the Wehrmacht continued to occupy the northern part of Italy as an occupying power. They allegedly made a treaty with the by then tottering shadow of the former sawdust Caeser and proceeded to bring the Italian prisoners of war to the Reich to work. Here again the soldiery had been sold into bondage by their former chief. The record shows that the Russian, French and Italian prisoners of war were used to work in airplane factories. Whether they made the fighter plane, ME 109, or the jet fighter, ME 262, or the transport plane, Ju 52, is of little moment.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3083, "page_number": "2476", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "In the total warfare in which the Reich was engaged, there is one certainty, that nothing was being constructed which was not part of the war armament program.\nThe International Military Tribunal stated in this connection (p. 16915): \"Many of the prisoners of war were assigned to work directly related to military operations, in violation of Article 31 of the Geneva Convention. They were put to work in munitions factories, and even made to load bombers, to carry ammunition and to dig trenches, often under the most hazardous conditions. This condition applied particularly to Soviet prisoners of war. On February 16, 1943, at a meeting of the Central Planning Board Milch said: 'We have made a request for an order that a certain percentage of men in the Ack Ack artillery must be Russians; 50,000 will be taken altogether. Thirty thousand are already employed as gunners. This is an amusing thing, that the Russians must work the guns'\".\nThat every aircraft factory in the Reich had anti-aircraft batteries to protect it, goes without saying. Who would know better than the defendant that such use was made of the Soviet prisoners of war? Further, this type of artillery was a part of the Luftwaffe and not a separate branch in the ground farces, as it is in the US Army. The witness Foerster has testified that Soviet prisoners of war worked at the gun positions. If the number two man in the German Air Force could not have done anything toward arranging that the prisoners of war did not work in the factories or work the guns, then no one in the Wehrmacht could have done anything about the situation.\nWe have heard much of the defendant's violent temper and the resulting statements which, witnesses assert, were never taken seriously by those who heard them. The explanations offered by the Defense are as frivolous as the alleged outbursts were frequent. It would have been difficult, if not impossible, for one who occupied the positions held by the defendant, to accomplish anything if his subordinates had to sift all of the strong statements he made, in an effort to determine which of them were seriously said. Further, his strong statements about the procurement and treatment or 1 laborers are closely aligned with the grim reality as we have seen it.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3084, "page_number": "", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "We submit that this man of violent temper believed in, and consciously advocated, the ruthless measures he recommended, and that his subordinates, to the best of their ability, complied with his recommendations. It is not reasonable to assume that one with his power could have made statements, of the kind of which we have heard here, and that he would then rely on the good offices of those who were around him to insure that nothing was done as a result of these statements. The Reich was not a country of innocent victims of one tyrant, but rather it was composed of a series of tyrants, each like the mastertyrant, each with his own group of subordinates, who carried out the wishes and whims of their respective chiefs. If all men who held positions of authority in the Reich are to be believed when they say that they were personally opposed to criminal excesses, then we have the fantastic conclusion that these crimes were committed in the face of influential and unanimous opposition.\nThe witnesses produced by the Defense left a little to be desired. Without indulging in exhaustive detail, a few statements made by some are worth comment.\nThe witness Koenig said that he didn't know Himmler was head of the SS until 1945.\nThe witness von Brauchitsch did not know families were broken up and sent to concentration camps. It was this man, the aide to Goering, who passed on the Terboven letter of May 1942 to the defendant. The Court will recall that the letter told of the attempted escape and the resulting concentration camp detention of the Norwegians. It was the defendant who said that an attempt to escape by a prisoner of war is an honorable thing. Would not a similar effort on the part of some Norwegians merit something less than a concentration camp? Brauchitsch had said a little earlier that he did not know that foreigners were in concentration camps.\nThe witness Felmy has stated that some Jugoslav partisans were sent to Germany as laborers.\nThe witness Schniewindt, who was present at the conference of 23 May 1939, did not under any circumstances gain the impression that aggression was announced. 2477 The witness, Vorwald, a subordinate of the defendant and hence his concern for these proceedings, may be assumed as being something short of disinterest, was thoroughly glib and exceptionally agreeable.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3085, "page_number": "2478", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "He even agreed with the statement, on cross-examination, that the forces of the Reich were no longer in Africa in 1943. It is a matter of historical record that the invasion of that Continent began in November 1942 and that the campaign was concluded in the spring of the following year.\nThe witness Doerner, still laboring under the spell of the former leaders, stated that he believed Goering to be the last great man of the Renaissance.\nThe last witness of whom we shall speak is Karl Wolff. In his affidavit, he spoke of meetings between Himmler and Milch over coffee and cigars. He spoke of the great cultural works of the SS. Was he speaking of Dachau and Manthausen? With some vehemence, he insisted that he had deported only 1,050 Jews from all of Italy. He knew nothing of Dachau that led him to believe that anything unusual was happening there. Although he did say that in his visit there in 1942, the place was so clean that one could have oaten from the floor.\nThese represent a fair cross section of the witnesses, all of whom had roles of varying importance in the tragedy with which we are here concerned. Even as the defendant contends that he knew nothing of what went on, so do they echo the same refrain.\nMuch time has been spent in attempting to discredit the Schmundt record of the 23 May 1939 meeting. The Court is familiar with the findings which have been made by the International Military Tribunal, on this subject. There has been no additional light thrown on the matter by the evidence here presented to indicate that the Schmundt record is anything other than a correct record of the events which transpired at the meeting.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3086, "page_number": "2479", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "We wish to discuss now in conclusion one document offered by the Prosecution. This we have saved until the last because we believe that of all the evidence presented by the prosecution it is most typical of the defendant as a man and as a Nazi. We refer to the minutes of the conference of Air Force engineers and others which was presided over and was addressed by the defendant on 25 March 1944. This document, like so many others in this case, was initialed by the defendant.\nThe defendant stated that, as of the date of the conference, \"We have in our employ today approximately 60 percent foreigners...\"\nHe continued, \"The ratio is gradually approaching 90 percent foreigners with 10 Percent German managers.\"\nThese are statements by a man who said he did not know about the extent to which foreign labor was used in his own industry, let alone in Germany. He stated that:\n\"The Fuehrer order provides cleanly that the fighter plane program which the Fighter Staff is starting has priority over all other fields of armaments...\"\nHe showed knowledge of the production of tanks and infantry munitions. He spoke of having the Air Force production \"to an extent safely underground\" in four months time. It is here that he stated that he was head of the Jaegerstab and that Saur was his deputy and chief of staff. Touching on his conferences with the various plant officials, he stated:\n\"On the spot the individual gentlemen are then told - supported by the combined authority of the State, the Wehrmacht, and the Party, that is Saur and me, Speer is unfortunately still on sick leave, otherwise he would also be present - what it is all about.\"\nHe commented on labor:\n\"Thus, all pertinent questions are dealt with in the conferences about the commitment of labor and all competent men, who have anything to do with the commitment of labor, meet, especially the President of the competent Provincial Labor Office. Thus it is determined on the spot, in the individual spheres, what the factory lacks.\"", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3087, "page_number": "2480", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "This is the man who has constantly maintained that he had nothing to do with labor. One can readily imagine a session between the Luftwaffe Field Marshal and a Labor Office chief.\nWe have heard the defendant deny and redeny any knowledge of the slave labor program as such, let alone the extent to which it went. It is our contention that anybody who walked the streets of Germany could net have failed to have become aware of the activities which were being carried on by Sauckel and his henchmen.\nHe makes an interesting reference to bureaucracy:\n\"It is an error to believe that civilian offices are more bureaucratic than military offices. On the basis of my continuous and extensive experience, I can assure you, exactly the opposite is true.\"\nThis from one who would have the Tribunal believe that his staff and officers were one big happy family who ran things in a rather casual catch as catch can fashion.\nSpeaking of the arrival of laborers, he said:\n\"In brief, the people arrive there and are put to work there. If any doubts exist as to whether a request is justified - for the people are not requested by numbers, but as electricians, blacksmiths, fitters, turners, as unskilled laborers, as foreigners - then this is settled. If the result shows that the request for people is not justified, then the matter is referred to a commission and this commission examines the facts within 48 hours. If it becomes apparent that dirty dealings are going on, my special court martial is called into Play, and it hands down a quick decision.\"\nThis from a man who has stated that he had no power to give orders. He stated further, \"the normal work week in our industry is 72 hours.\" The witness Krysiak testified that they worked 84 hours at the factory where the Mauthausen inmates were employed.\nSpeaking of the difficulties that resulted from the hoarding of spare parts by the various foremen, he said:", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3088, "page_number": "2481", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "\"Now it is your task to teach these people some sense and to nut the entire system of hoarding on a sensible basis. I therefore ask you, as the Senior Authorities in the field; teach that to these people by force. There is no sense in writing letters. Such letters are not read. They would not understand them anyhow.\"\nThe wish of a Field Marshal is as an order and he advocated the use of force on his own people. The extent to which he urged that they go was expressed a few lines further on when he stated:\n\"Whoever hoards supplies must be punished immediately. By punishment I also mean shooting. For if these people are told what is at issue here and they still try to hide parts of their supplies or to cover them up, that is dirty dealing and a crime against Germany. I want to say that very clearly and I want to say it in very sincere words, so that you yourselves will realize that we are dealing here with a question which is of decisive importance for German's well being, that we are not dealing with an ordinary point of discussion but with a question which decides about the life and death of Germany.\"\nHe advocated killing Germans, not slackers but hoarders. He consciously used strong language, yet he would have it believed that he never smoke harshly except in a rage and that nothing ever came from his outbursts. He indicated knowledge of the overall figures on the breakdown of working hours.\n\"In considering the figures one has to know that 52 percent of the total man hours spent in equipping a plane and only 48 percent in building the aircraft frame and engine.\"\nHe has said that he was powerless to do anything about requests from industry, yet he stated:\n\"If I want something from industry, then industry comes and says, 'Yes, I have those and those requests.' Only then can I do what you want.\"\nHe again speaks of the death penalty when he says:\n\"Gentlemen, in this connection I may call your attention to another important point.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3089, "page_number": "2482", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "If I visit an office and find out that something is being hidden there, then I ask for the death penalty for such a crime today. That is fraud. That is sabotage of the German armament industry.\"\nCan it be seriously contended that these words were regarded by the listeners as mere outbursts?\nNext we have another illuminating passage on his attitude toward prisoners of war:\n\"Then there is still the human factor. We often had considerable difficulty with the human factor. The fluctuation there is very considerable. The quote of the Luftwaffe in the distribution of manpower was considerably lowered. The foreigners run away. They do not keep any contract. There are difficulties with Frenchmen, Italians, Dutch. The prisoners of war are partly unruly and fresh. The people are also supposed to be carrying on sabotage. These elements cannot be made more efficient by small means. They are just not handled strictly enough. If a decent foreman would sock one of those unruly guys because tho fellow won't work, the the situation would soon change. International Law cannot be observed here. I have asserted myself very strongly and with the help of Saur I have represented the point of view very strongly that the prisoners, with the exception of the English and the Americans, should be taken away from the military authorities. The soldiers are not in a position, as experience has shown, to come with these fellows who know all the answers. I shall take very strict measures here and shall put such a prisoner of war before my court martial If he has committed sabotage or refused to work, I will have him hanged right in his own factory. I an convinced that that will not be without effect.\"\nThese words are strangely reminiscent of his speech at the 53rd meeting of the Central Planning Board. He knew he had advocated and participated in flagrant violations of International Law and here he went on record on this subject.\nWe see the defendant making a \"big request\" of the Quartermaster General and calling for \"energetic action\" by the Chief of Supply. This was a meeting of considerable moment and these statements did not go unheeded.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3090, "page_number": "2483", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "He spoke of the laborers:\n\"...We in the Luftwaffe armament industry have Russians, French prisoners of war, Dutch, and members of 32 other nations. The obtaining of interpreters alone presents a big difficulty there.\"\nThen he adds:\n\"We, the Quartermaster General and Generalluftzeugmeister, have already agreed that we are to balance the personnel also. Above all it is necessary that the member of the troops be treated in exactly the same way as the industrial worker.\"\nWe have a strong statement concerning the feelings of the German worker. He said:\n\"By unjust treatment the German worker means that the treatment is not the same for all. That is what makes the German worker indignant. He wants everyone to be treated the same way. He wants justice and does not want to be mistreated in words or any other way. He cannot stand it and he is right in not being able to stand it.\"\nThe defendant advocated that the German worker be carefully handled. The Tribunal has heard from the witnesses Ferrier, Lb Friec, and Krysiak how the foreign workers were handled.\nHe outlined the working program for the Raster weekend:\n\"Finally I ask that the troops received the fundamental order to work on Good Friday, the Saturday before Raster, and on Raster Monday in the same way as the people in the factories. The soldiers just do not have to go on furlough either. They must be told why.\"\nAre these the words of a man who is without authority to issue orders concerning the troops?\nHe acknowledged his employment of Russian prisoners of war and advocated that shirkers among the factory laborers be whipped back to their jobs. He said:\n\"I further ask for support by the Luftwaffe physicians. With all the rabble that we have among the foreign workers there is of course a lot of shirking.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3091, "page_number": "2484", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "At the moment the Russians - that is, the Russian prisoners of war - are feigning a lot of fatigue and illness. The incidence of sickness of one and a half to two percent which we have had up to now has at least doubled and in some factories it has been increased to eight, nine, and. ten percent. That is, of course, done by previous agreement. There the official physicians must undertake an examination and if the physicians, who have to be very strict, find out that it is not true, then we return the fellows to work by means of the whip. Then the whip serves as cure.\"\nHe again spoke of orders that have been given:\n\"If the factory knows: Now we are going to be attacked, and it has a few trench shelters but does not have a bomb-proof shelter or the like, then the people simply ran away from the factory automatically at each raid after the first one, and they could usually not be caught the next day, either. That applies particularly to the foreigners. We have therefore now issued the following order, and have equipped the superiors accordingly with weapons and pistols: as soon as a factory which has already been attacked a few times can count on the raid's being aimed at that particular factory again, then the personnel leave the factory, but in closed groups by shops, under the leadership of the man in charge of the shop, and, to the extent that they are German personnel, they leave singing military songs.\"\nAre superiors armed, with weapons and pistols to lead contented German workers away from a factory in case of an air raid? Little wonder that the foreigners who had been brought in like chattels ran away when the opportunity presented itself. Were these workers who were fleeing voluntary workers?\nCommenting on the gravity of the task of fighter production, and the importance of the months of April and May 1944, he said:\n\"That will be decided in six to eight weeks. If we succeed in this, then we will once again have time to carry out all the other tasks and jobs of this war and can also achieve greater success in other fields.\"", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3092, "page_number": "2485", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "Bore the \"other fields\" tasks to be accomplished in the sowing of seeds of the Reich's culture?\nThe defendant has said that he knew nothing about the living conditions of the foreigners. It is obvious that he knew something, for he said:\n\"I also ask you to be of considerable assistance in the question of lodging in connection with the question of the relationship between our military personnel at the airfields and the workers. If we bring the people over to work, we also have to provide them with places to live. As far as Germans are concerned this is not a problem. As far us foreigners are concerned, this has to be done in some suitable way. They can not be put together with our people, just like that. But they should not be so far away from the airfield that one can not get them to work at all.\"\nNo, don't let them live with the native workers, but be sure that they live close enough to the factory so that they can put in their 72 hours a week.\nThe importance of the fighter program is emphasized when ho said:\n\"There are no laws of bureaucracy, there are no regulations, there is nothing at all as important as the task of winning the war.\"\nThe defendant could not agree with anything that Hitler stood for after March 1943, he was trying to get out but here he speak of Hitler and his henchmen - men who, he said, were leading Germany to certain catastrophe, \"It is quite surprising how the population has endured this thing so far and how it always gets on its feet again, when it is led in the proper way by true leaders who, thank God, are present among the people through the party and the rest of the leadership.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3093, "page_number": "2486", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "But you must not forget, gentlemen, the war of nerves has reached a point which causes us in the leadership group worry.\"\nHe has said that he was not a whole-hearted Nazi, but here he referred to. himself as one of the true leaders and this at a time when the hands on the clock tolling the hours of the Reich were approaching twelve. Yet he would have you believe that he was a minor man.\nHe -did not confine his speaking efforts solely to the Luftwaffe! ho was one of the leaders and as such it was natural that he should address the entir armament feeder industry. On that subject he said:\n\"What I am telling you today was told the other day to the entire armament feeder industry -- that includes the blacksmiths, foundries, crankshaft works of the iron producing industry, etc. They were likewise exhorted to produce the maximum; in the same way the Gauleitungen, all of the provincial offices, where ever we were, were addressed by us to that effect. But everyone considers that if he does not do his duty we do not ask whether there is a law, we ask only that he is the responsible one and that we will seize him no matter who he is.\nHis first peroration is indicative of his attitude:\n\"Please go wherever you are going and knock everybody down who blocks your way! We cover up everything here. We do not ask whether he is allowed to or whether he is not allowed to. For us, there is nothing but this one task. We are fanatics in this sphere. We do not even consider letting anything at all distract us from that task. No order exists which could prevent me from fulfilling this task. Nor shall I ever be given such an order.\"\nYes, the defendant was a fanatic. Too, he was one who could cover up. It was a wilful man who could say that.\nThere is an interesting statement concerning the number of employees of the Luftwaffe. The defendant set it at 1.8 million. This is somewhat in excess of the .5 million figure that one witness mentioned.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3094, "page_number": "2487", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "It has been insisted that he had nothing to do with labor, it has been insisted that he could give no orders, yet in his second peroration to the same speech, he said:\n\"We have given orders that will make you laugh. Some labor control offic or other suddenly declared that the Jaegerstab was not entitled, according to paragraph so-and-so, to establish a 72-hour work week; it was not valid. ** said: the gentleman is herewith informed; if he should say such a thing once more, he will be picked up; I have excellent cellars in this house. Then the opposition disappears immediately. But you have to count on such things, and the difficulty for you is that, in order to get through all the junk, one should clean out first of all a whole let of little pigsties. Something will come out of this whole affair with us, yet. Whoever of my technical people from the Ministry does not earn his keep with the Jaegerstab now, and does n** cooperate, I guarantee that he will never appear again in this Ministry, in the machine where I give the orders.\"\nIs this the man who said he could not have people sent to concentration camps? The witness Krysiak was \"picked up\" for having said in 1940 that Germany would lose the war. He was arrested by the Gestapo as the result of private conversation. It is unbelievable that a Field Marshal could not, and did not, exercise the same power.\nToday is the third anniversary of the speech of 25 March 1944, male by the defendant. His closing remarks on that day detail decisively the philosophy of the then Field Marshal of the Luftwaffe. Those assembled has been listening to their chief since midmorning. The hour was late. The hands of the clock were past twelve. Germany was in the fifth year of war. The defendant was concluding his speech. He said:\n\"Gentlemen, I know, not every subordinate can say: for me the law no longer exists, but he has to have someone who covers up for him, not out of cowardice. But if you act according to the spirit of the old field service regulation, 'Abstaining from doing something hurts us more than erring in the choice of the means', and if, moreover, you keep in touch and immediately clarify difficult points, so that something can be done, then we are willing accept the responsibility, whether this is the law or not.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3095, "page_number": "2488", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "I see only two poss bilities for me and for Germany; either we succeed and thereby save Germany, c we continue these slipshed methods and then get the fate that we deserve. I prefer to fall, while I am doing something that is against the rules but that is right and sensible, and be called to account for it, and, if you like, hanged, rather than be hanged because Papa Stalin is here in Berlin or the Englishmen. I have no desire for that. I would rather die in a different way. But I think we can accomplish this task, too. We are in the fifth year of war. I repeat: the decision will come during the next six weeks, Heil Hitler!\"\nThe time is at hand for another decision, a decision which will follow the dictates of sound reason. The record which will be made by this Tribunal in its judgment will be one that shall give courage to peaceful free men everywhere. Indeed, the defendant is fortunate that the decision in the present cruise is in the hands of those who do believe that the law exists and vi 11 continue to exist. There is no place for passion or for prejudice in the ceaseless tasks, the seeking of truth and the establishing of justice.\nDR. BEHGOLD:May it please your Honors, before I ask you to allow the defendant to make his final statement, I must follow my profession and make an objection here. Mr. Denney has quoted the affidavit of Schroeder. The Court may remember that I called the witness Schroeder to the witness stand and that I let him go because Mr. Denney said that the affidavit would not be used by him and it would not be part of this trial. I would therefore like to remain on that line, for otherwise I would have had to interrogate Schroeder.\nMR. DENNEY:If your Honors please, the only quotation that was made from Schroeder was the chart which was offered in evidence, which he made. We did not offer the affidavit and we did not quote from the affidavit. We only spoke of the chart.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Well, it is understood that the affidavit is not to be considered by the Court. The law provides that at this time the defendant may, if he chooses, make a statement to the Tribunal. If he so desires he will approach the podium and speak into the microphone.", "speakers": [ "THE PRESIDENT", "DR. BEHGOLD", "MR. DENNEY" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3096, "page_number": "2489", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "DEFENDANT ERHARD MILCH:Since I became a soldier in 1910 my work was to serve my German people. In the first World War I was at the front from the first to the last day. Then with others I built up German air lines, and when in 1935 the Government asked me to enter the Air Ministry, despite many misgivings, I could not refuse to take up that task because it was pointed out to me I could not turn a deaf car to this call of the German people.\nMy idea was conceived at the time of the air lines, that all nations must collaborate, particularly the European nations, gathered together on a small area. I have remained faithful and whenever possible, mostly outside my actual sphere of work, I dedicated myself to that task. I was opposed to war because the experiences from the first world War showed me that the living standard of the people would not be improved by war, and on the contrary everybody would be grievously damaged.\nIt was for me a matter of course, even in the late great war, the planning of which was unknown to me, to do my duty at my place. My full effort was dedicated to the air defense of the German homeland. This I conceived to be the only possibility to obtain bearable peace terms. Even though I had nothing to do with the employment of workers, including foreign workers, I considered it to be my duty to make precise examinations of the admissibility of work by foreigners which was answered in the affirmative, as I made also efforts to keep the figures as low as possible and to see to it that they would work in protected factories (Speer enterprises) foreign countries.\nI always made efforts to improve the living conditions of all types of workers. My statements made to the best of my knowledge and conscience to this Tribunal were directed to the world at large and above all to the German people, in order to show that only by peaceful understanding of the nations among each other, could life and civilization be secured in future and that understanding was not only necessary but also possible if there is a will, but I also wanted to show my fellow Germans quite clearly that an autocratic government which is not controlled must end in disaster.", "speakers": [ "DEFENDANT ERHARD MILCH" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3097, "page_number": "", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "2489 a My personal faith is of no consequence in this connection.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3098, "page_number": "2490", "date": "25 March 1947", "date_iso": "1947-03-25", "text": "I am interested in only one thing; that the German people should, as soon as possible, be relieved of their untold suffering and should join the community of nations as an equal partner.\nTHE PRESIDENT:This case is now in the hands of the Tribunal for the rendition of its final judgment. The Court will be in recess until Tuesday, the eighth day of April, at 9:30 in the morning, unless sooner convened.\nTHE MARSHAL:This tribunal is in recess until Tuesday, April 8, at 0930 hours, unless sooner convened.\n\"The tribunal adjourned until 8 April 1947 at 0930 hours.)", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3099, "page_number": "2491", "date": "16 April 1947", "date_iso": "1947-04-16", "text": "Court No. II, Case No. II.\nOfficial Transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America, against Erhard Milch, defendant, sitting at Nurnberg, Germany, on 16 April 1947, 1400-1530, Justice Toms presiding.\nTHE MARSHAL:Persons in the Courtroom will please find their seats.\nThe Honorable Judges of Military Tribunal II.\nMilitary Tribunal II is now in session.\nGod save the United States of America and this Honorable Tribunal.\nThere will be order in the Courtroom.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The case of the United States versus Erhard Milch is before this Tribunal, being Case Number 2. The record will show that the defendant and his counsel are present in Court. Will the Page give a copy of this to Mr. Denney and to General Taylor, and the copy in German to Dr. Bergold? The opinion and judgment of the Tribunal is about to be read. Judge Musmanno, have you something?\nTHETRIBUNAL (JUDGE MUSMANNO): I am filing a concurring opinion.\nTHE PRESIDENT:This will be noted, please, by the Secretary General.\nThe Indictment in this case contains three counts, which may be summarized as follows:\nCOUNT ONE:War Crimes, involving murder, slave labor, deportation of civilian population for slave labor, cruel and inhuman treatment of foreign laborers, and the use of prisoners of war in war operations by force and compulsion.\nCOUNT TWO:War Crimes, involving murder, subjecting involuntary victims to low-pressure and freezing experiments, resulting in torture and death.\nCOUNT THREE:Crimes against Humanity, involving murder and the same unlawful acts specified in Counts One and Two against German nationals and nationals of other countries.\nFor reasons of its own, the Tribunal will first consider Counts Two and One, in that order, followed by consideration of Count Three.", "speakers": [ "COUNT TWO", "COUNT ONE", "THE", "THE PRESIDENT", "COUNT THREE", "THE MARSHAL" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3100, "page_number": "2492", "date": "16 April 1947", "date_iso": "1947-04-16", "text": "Court No. II, Case No. II.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Judge Phillips, please.\nJUDGE PHILLIPS: COUNT TWO\nMore in detail, this count alleges that the defendant was a principal in, accessory to, ordered, abetted, took a consenting part in and was connected with, plans and enterprises involving medical experiments without the subjects: consent, in the course of which experiments, the defendant, with others, perpetrated murders, brutalities, cruelties, tortures and other inhumane acts. The so-called medical experiments consisted of placing the subject in an air-tight chamber in which the air pressure is mechanically reduced so that it is comparable with the air pressure to which an aviator is subjected at high altitudes, and in experimenting upon the effect of extreme dry and wet cold upon the human body. For these experiments inmates of the concentration camp at Dachau were selected. These inmates presented a motley group of prisoners of war, dissenters from the philosophy of the National Socialist Party, Jews, both Germany and the eastern countries, rebellious or indifferent factory workers, displaced civilians from eastern occupied countries, and an undefined group known as \"a social or undesirable persons.\"\nIn approaching a judicial solution of the questions involved in this phase of the case, it may be well to set down seriatim and controlling legal questions to be answered by an analysis of the proof:\n(1) Were low-pressure and freezing experiments carried on at Dachau?\n(2) Were they of a character to inflict torture and death on the subjects?\n(The answer to these two questions may be said to involve the establishment of the corpus delicti.)\n(3) Did the defendant personally participate in them?\n(3) Were they conducted under his direction or command?\n(5) Were they conducted with prior knowledge on his part that they might be excessive or inhuman?", "speakers": [ "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3101, "page_number": "2493", "date": "16 April 1947", "date_iso": "1947-04-16", "text": "Court No. II, Case No. II.\n(6) Did he have the power or opportunity to prevent or stop them?\n(7) If so, did he fail to act, thereby becoming particeps criminis and accessory to them?\nThe periods during which these experiments were conducted became extremely significant in determining the responsibility of the defendant. The evidence is uncontradicted that the low-pressure experiments were inaugurated in March, 1942, and were concluded by the end of June, 1942. The cold water experiments extended from August to October, 1942, and the freezing experiments from February to April, 1943. During all of these periods the defendant was Under Secretary of State and Head of the Reich Air Ministry, Inspector General and Second-in-Command under Goering of the Luftwaffe, to which post he was appointed November 19, 1941. In these various capacities, certain military duties devolved upon him, especially as Inspector General. For example, he was ordered by Hitler to take an air squadron to Norway on a purely military expedition, and during the siege of Stalingrad, early in 1943, he was ordered by Hitler to attempt to transport into Stalingrad by air food and supplies for the beleaguered German Army. His high military standing is indicated by the fact that he was one of the twelve Field Marshals of the German Armed Forces. The major part of his duties, however, revolved around the production of aircraft for the Luftwaffe. He was primarily a production man, charged with the duty of keeping military airplanes supplied in sufficient quantity to the air arm of Germany's military machine. This naturally involved the procurement in large quantities of the two essential ingredients of production - labor and raw material and an over-all supervision of any efforts having to do with that arm. One of the defendant's immediate subordinates was Professor Hippke, who held the post of Inspector of the Medical Services of the Luftwaffe. Hippke was a physician, and had supervision of all matters involving the health and physical welfare of the personnel of the Luftwaffe.\nThe low-pressure experiments at Dachau were conducted by three physicians, Dr. Romberg, Dr. Ruff and Dr. Rascher. It is quite apparent Court No. II, Case No. II.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3102, "page_number": "2494", "date": "16 April 1947", "date_iso": "1947-04-16", "text": "from the evidence that Dr. Rascher, who was attached to the Luftwaffe but made frantic efforts to have himself transferred to the SS, was principally responsible for the nature of the experiments. Dr. Ruff and Dr. Romberg were also attached to the Luftwaffe and were, therefore, remotely under the command and control of the defendant, but the evidence is persuasive that, although they were interested in and helped conduct the experiments up to a certain point, the excesses which resulted in torture and death are attributable to Dr. Rascher. It is quite apparent that the actual activities of these three physicians were far removed from the immediate scrutiny of the defendant even though their activities were conducted within the orbit of the Luftwaffe, over which the defendant had command.\nApproaching now the determinative questions listed above, some progress can quickly be made in arriving at judicially satisfactory answers.\n(1) As to the first question, the evidence is overwhelming and not contradicted that experiments involving the effect of low air pressure and freezing on live human beings were conducted at Dachau from March through June, 1942.\n(2) Approaching the second question, it is claimed by the defendant that only legitimate scientific experiments were conducted which did not involve pain or torture and could not ordinarily be expected to result in death. It is remotely possible that so long as the experiments were under the guidance of Dr. Ruff and Dr. Romberg some consideration was given to the possible effect upon the subjects of the experiments. But it is indisputable that the experiments conducted by Dr. Rascher involved torture and suffering in the extreme and in many cases resulted in death. Under the specific guidance of Dr. Rascher, the air pressure was reduced to a point which no filer would ever be required to undergo (14,000 meters). The photographs of the subjects undergoing these experiments indicate extreme agony and leave no doubt that any victim who was fortunate enough to survive had undergone a harrowing experience.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3103, "page_number": "2495", "date": "16 April 1947", "date_iso": "1947-04-16", "text": "The Tribunal does not hesitate to find that these experiments, performed under the spacious guise of science, were barbarous and inhuman. It has been urged by the defendant that the only persons used as subjects of these experiments were habitual criminals who had been sentenced to death and who were given the dubious option of offering themselves for the experiments and receiving as a reward, if they survived, a commutation of the death sentence to life imprisonment. This claim scarcely merits serious consideration. A number of witnesses stated that they had a vague understanding that this was the case, but the record is entirely barren of any credible testimony which could possible justify such a finding of fact.\n(3) The prosecution does not claim (and there is no evidence) that the defendant personally participated in the conduct of these experiments.\n(4) There is no evidence that the defendant instituted the experiments or that they were conducted or continued under his specific direction or command. It may perhaps be claimed that the low-pressure chamber, which was the property of the Luftwaffe, was sent to Dachau at the direction of the defendant, but even if this were true it could not be inferred from that fact alone that he thereby promulgated the inhuman and criminal experiments which followed. The low-pressure chamber was susceptible of legitimate use and, perhaps, had Dr. Rascher not injected himself into the proceedings, it would have been confined to that use.\n(5) Assuming that the defendant was aware that experiments of some character were to be launched, it cannot be said that the evidence shows any knowledge on his part that unwilling subjects would be forced to submit to them or that the experiments would be painful and dangerous to human life. It is quite apparent from an over-all survey of the proof that the defendant concerned himself very little with the details of these experiments. It was quite natural that this should be so. His most pressing problems involved the procurement of labor and materials for the manufacture of airplanes. His position involved vast responsibilities covering a wide industrial field, and there were certainly Court No. II, Case No. II.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3104, "page_number": "2496", "date": "16 April 1947", "date_iso": "1947-04-16", "text": "countless subordinate fields within the Luftwaffe of which he had only cursory knowledge. The Tribunal is convinced that these experiments, which fell naturally and almost exclusively within one of his subordinate departments, engaged the attention of the defendant only perfunctorily, if at all.\n(6) Did the defendant have the power or opportunity to prevent or stop the experiments? It cannot be gainsaid that he had the authority to either prevent or stop them in so far as they were being conducted under the auspices of the Luftwaffe. It seems extremely probable, however, that, in spite of him, they would have continued under Himmler and the SS. But certainly he had no opportunity to prevent or stop them, unless it can be found that he had guilty knowledge of them, a fact which has already been determined in the negative. As early as May 20, 1942, the defendant wrote to Wolff, Himmler's Adjutant, stating:\n\"........ our medical inspector (Dr. Hippke) reports to me that the altitude experiments carried out by the SS and Luftwaffe at Dachau have been finished. Any continuation of these experiments seems essentially unreasonable........\n\"The low-pressure chamber would not be needed for these low-temperature experiments. It is urgently needed at another place and therefore can no longer remain in Dachau.\" Certainly the defendant did not have the opportunity to prevent or stop the experiments if he had been told and was convinced that they had terminated on May 20, 1942, and there is no reason to believe that he did not rely upon Dr. Hippke's report as to their termination. Considerable emphasis is laid upon the testimony that a motion picture of the experiments was brought to Berlin and exhibited in the Air Ministry Building, where the defendant had his office. It may even be said that the picture was brought to Berlin for the defendant's edification. But it appears that he was not present when it was shown and that, in any event, the showing was long after the experiments were concluded, at which time the defendant certainly could do nothing toward preventing Court No. II, Case No. II.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3105, "page_number": "2497", "date": "16 April 1947", "date_iso": "1947-04-16", "text": "them or stopping them.\n(7) In view of the above findings, it is obvious that the defendant never became particeps criminis and accessory in the low-pressure experiments set forth in the second count of the indictment.\nAs to the other experiments, involving subjecting human beings to extreme low temperatures both in the open air and in water, the responsibility of the defendant is even less apparent than in the case of the low-pressure experiments. The same letter of May 20, 1942, to Wolff, does indicate that the defendant was aware of the proposed sea-water experiments. In it he says:\n\"........ the carrying out of experiments of some other kind, in regard to perils at high seas, would be important. These have been prepared in immediate agreement with the proper offices; Oberstabsarzt Weltz will be charged with the execution and Stabsarzt Rascher Trill be made available until further order in addition to his duties within the Medical Corps of the Luftwaffe. A change of these measures does not appear necessary, and an enlargement of the task is not considered pressing at this time.\"\nIt is true that Rascher wrote interminable reports as to the results of these experiments, but there is no proof that they ever reached the defendant. On the contrary, they were addressed to Himmler and to Rudolf Brandt, his Adjutant. At the Nurnberg conference in November, 1943, which was held after all experiments had been finished, reports were made which even to a mildly curious lay person might have indicated that the experiments had been tinged with excesses and fatalities. But two facts are striking. First, the defendant was not present at the conference and only received a report of it later, and, second, the experiments were at that time all over.\nIt must be constantly borne in mind that this is an American Court of justice, applying the ancient and fundamental concepts of Anglo-Saxon jurisprudence which have sunk their roots into the English common law and have been stoutly defended in the United States since its birth.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3106, "page_number": "2498", "date": "16 April 1947", "date_iso": "1947-04-16", "text": "Court No. II, Case No. II.\nOne of the principal purposes of these trials is to inculcate into the thinking of the German people an appreciation of, and respect for, the principles of law which have become the backbone of the democratic process. We must bend every effort toward suggesting to the people of every nation that laws must be used for the protection of people and that every citizen shall forever have the right to a fair hearing before an impartial tribunal, before which all men stand equal. We must never falter in maintaining, by practice as well as by preachment, the sanctity of what we have come to know as due process of law, civil and criminal, municipal and international. If the level of civilization is to be raised throughout the world, this must be the first step. Any other road leads but to tyranny and chaos. This Tribunal, before all others, must act in recognition of these self-evident principles. If it fails, its whole purpose is frustrated and this trial becomes a mockery. At the very foundation of these juridical concepts lie two important postulates: (1) Every person accused of crime is presumed to be innocent, and (2) that presumption abides with him until guilt has been established by proof beyond a reasonable doubt.\nUnless the court which hears the proof is convinced of guilt to the point of moral certainty, the presumption of innocence must continue to protect the accused. If the facts as drawn from the evidence are equally consistent with guilt and innocence, they must be resolved on the side of innocence. Under American law neither life nor liberty is to be lightly taken away, and, unless at the conclusion of the proof there is an abiding conviction of guilt in the mind of the court which sits in judgment, the accused may not be damnified.\nPaying reverent attention to these sacred principles, it is the judgment of the Tribunal that the defendant is not guilty of the charges embraced in Count Two of the Indictment.\nTHE PRESIDENT:Judge Musmanno will read the judgment of the Tribunal on Count One.\nJUDGE MUSMANNO: COUNT ONE", "speakers": [ "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3107, "page_number": "2499", "date": "16 April 1947", "date_iso": "1947-04-16", "text": "Court No. II, Case No. II Count One of the Indictment charges the defendant with the commission of specified war crimes, as defined by Article II of Control Council Law No. 10, in that he was a principal in, accessory to, ordered, abetted, took a consenting part in and was connected with, plans and enterprises involving slave labor and deportation to slave labor, resulting in the enslavement, torture and murder of civilians of foreign countries.\nThe Indictment further charges that he similarly participated in the use of prisoners of war in war operations and work having a direct. relation to war operations, resulting in inhuman treatment and death to captured members of the armed forces opposed to Germany. The Indictment alleges that these acts were in violation of international law and the recognized principles of civilized warfare and in specific violation of numerous treaties and conventions to which Germany was a party.\nIt is claimed by the prosecution that the defendant's responsibility for these alleged crimes arises from his activities in three capacities: (1) As Air Ordnance Master General (Generalluftzeugmeister); (2) Member of the Central Planning Board; and (3) Chief of the Jaegerstab. The Central Planning Board was established by a decree of the Fuehrer, dated October 29, 1943. That decree fitted the task of production of material goods of every kind into the framework of the Four-Year Plan and charged the Central Planning Board with the procurement and distribution of material of every description. The Board consisted of Reich Minister Speer, Under Secretary Koerner, and the defendant. On March 1, 1944 the Jaegerstab was established, consisting of Speer, Sauer (a subordinate of Speer), and the defendant. The Jaegerstab concerned itself exclusively with the material needs of the Luftwaffe, and was headed, naturally, by the defendant. It became apparent that neither of these two bodies could adequately deal with the problems of production without constantly dealing with the question of labor supply. Meetings of the Central Planning Board were held at least weekly and the minutes of those meetings which were offered in evidence show a constant and unremitting concern with the problem of labor. Fritz Court No. II, Case No. II.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3108, "page_number": "2500", "date": "16 April 1947", "date_iso": "1947-04-16", "text": "Sauckel was in supreme command of the procurement of labor for the entire war effort, and his conduct in carrying out his task has been vividly portrayed in the judgment of the International Military Tribunal?\n\"........ As local supplies of raw materials and local industrial capacity became inadequate to meet the German requirements, the system of deporting laborers to Germany was put into force. By the middle of April 1940 compulsory deportation of laborers to Germany had been ordered in the Government General; and a similar procedure was followed in other eastern territories as they were occupied. A description of this compulsory deportation from Poland was given by Himmler. In an address to SS officers he recalled how in weather 40 degrees below zero they had to 'haul away thousands, tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands.' On a later occasion Himmler stated:\nWhether ten thousand Russian females fall down from exhaustion while digging an anti-tank ditch interests me only insofar as the antitank ditch for Germany is finished ........ We must realize 1a.That we have 6-7 millions foreigners in Germany.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3109, "page_number": "2501", "date": "16 April 1947", "date_iso": "1947-04-16", "text": "......\nThey are none of then dangerous so long as we trice severe measures at the merest trifles.'\n\"During the first two years of the German Occupation of France, Belgium, Holland and Norway, however, an attempt was made to obtain the necessary workers on a voluntary basis. How unsuccessful this was may be seen from the report of the meeting of the Central Planning Board on 1 March 1944. The representative of the defendant Speer, one Kochrl, speaking of the situation in France, said:\n'During all this time a great number of Frenchmen was recruited, and voluntarily went to Germany.\nHe was interrupted by the defendant Sauckel:\n'Not only voluntary, some were recruited forcibly.'\nTo which Koehrl replied:\n'The calling up started after the recruitment no longer yielded enough results.'\nTo which the defendant Sauckel replied:\n'Out of the five million workers who arrived in Germany, not even 200,000 came voluntarily.' and Kochrl rejoined:\nand Koehrl rejoined:\n'Let us forget for the moment whether or not some slight pressure was used. Formally, at least, they were volunteers.'\n\"Committees were set up to encourage recruiting, and a vigorous propaganda campaign was begun to induce workers to volunteer for service in Germany. This propaganda campaign included, for example, the promise that a prisoner of war would be returned for every laborer who volunteered to go to Germany. In some cases it was supplemented by withdrawing the ration cards of laborers who refused to go to Germany, or by discharging them from their jobs and denying them unemployment benefit or an opportunity to work elsewhere. In some cases workers and their families were threatened with reprisals by the police if they refused to go to Germany.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3110, "page_number": "2502", "date": "16 April 1947", "date_iso": "1947-04-16", "text": "It was on 21 March 1942 that the defendant Seuckel was appointed Plenipotentiary-General for the Utilization of Labor, with authority over 'all available manpower, including that of workers recruited abroad, and of prisoners of war.'\n\"The defendant Sauckel was directly under the defendant Goering as Commissioner of the Four Year Plan, and a Goering decree of 27 March 1942 transferred all his authority over manpower to Sauckel, Sauckel's instructions, too, were that foreign labor should be recruited on a voluntary basis, but also provided that 'where, however, in the occupied territories, the appeal for volunteers does not suffice, obligatory service and drafting must under all circumstances be resorted to.' Rules requiring labor service in Germany were published in all the occupied territories. The number of laborers to be supplied was fixed by Sauckel, and the local authorities were instructed to meet these requirements by conscription if necessary .........\n\"....... the evidence before the Tribunal establishes the fact that the conscription of labor was accomplished in many cases by drastic and violent methods. The 'mistakes and blunders' were on a very great scale. Manhunts took place in the streets, at motion picture houses, even at churches and at night in private houses. Houses were sometimes burnt down, and the families taken as hostages, practices which were described by the defendant Rosenberg as having their origin 'in the blackest periods of the slave trade.' The methods used in obtaining forced labor from the Ukraine appear from an order issued to SD officers which stated:\n'It will not be possible always to refrain from using force..... When searching villages, especially when it has been necessary to burn down a village, the whole population will be put at the disposal of the Commissioner by force.....\nas a rule no more children will be shot.......\nIf we limit harsh measures through the above orders for the time being, it is only done for the following reason.\n.... The most important thing is the recruitment of workers.\n' The resources and needs of the occupied countries were completely disregarded in carrying out this policy.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3111, "page_number": "2503", "date": "16 April 1947", "date_iso": "1947-04-16", "text": "The treatment of the laborers was governed by Sauckel's instructions of 20 April 1942 to the effect that:\n'All the men must be fed, sheltered and treated in such a way as to exploit them to the highest possible extent, at the lowest conceivable degree of expenditure.'\nThe evidence showed that workers destined for the Reich were sent under guard to Germany, often packed in trains without adequate heat, food, clothing or sanitary facilities. The evidence further showed that the treatment of the laborers in Germany in many cases was brutal and dograding..... They were subject to constant supervision by the Gestapo and the SS, and if they attempted to leave their jobs they were sent to correction camps or concentration camps. The concentration camps were also used to increase the supply of labor. Concentration camp commanders were ordered to work their prisoners to the limits of their physical power. During the latter stages of the war the concentration camps were so productive in certain types of work that the Gestapo was actually instructed to arrest certain classes of laborers so that they could be used in this way. Allied prisoners of war were also regarded as a possible source of labor. Pres sure was exercised on non-commissioned officers to force them to consent to work, by transferring to disciplinary camps those who did not consent.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3112, "page_number": "2504", "date": "16 April 1947", "date_iso": "1947-04-16", "text": "Many of the prisoners of war were assigned to work directly related to military operations, in violation of article 31 of the Geneva Convention. They were put to work in munition factories and even made to load bombers, to carry ammunition and to dig trenches, often under the most hazardous conditions. This condition applied particularly to the Soviet prisoners of war. On 16 February 1943, at a meeting of the Central Planning Board, at which the defendants Sauckel and Speer were present, Milch, the present defendant, said:\n'We have made a request for an order that a certain percentage of men in the Ack-Ack artillery must be Russians; 50,000 will be taken altogether, 30,000 are already employed as gunners. This is an amusing thing, that Russians must work the guns.' And on 4 October 1943, at Posen, Himmler, speaking of the Russian prisoners, captured in the early days of the war, said:\n'At that time we did not value the mass of humanity as we value it today, as raw material, as labor. What, after all, thinking in terms of generations, is not to be regretted, but is now deplorable by reason of the loss of labor, is that the prisoners died in tens and hundreds of thousands of exhaustion and hunger.'\n\"The general policy underlying the mobilization of slave labor was stated by Sauckel on 20 April 1943. He said:\n'The aim of this new gigantic labor mobilization is to use all the rich and tremendous sources conquered and secured for us by our fighting Armed Forces under the leadership of Adolf Hitler, for the armament of the .armed Forces, and also for the nutrition of the Homeland.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3113, "page_number": "2505", "date": "16 April 1947", "date_iso": "1947-04-16", "text": "The raw materials, as well as the fertility of the conquered territories and their human labor power, are to be used completely and conscientiously to the profit of Germany and her Allies..... All prisoners of war from the territories of the Jest, as well as the East, actually in Germany, must be completely incorporated into the German armament and nutrition industries.... Consequently it is an immediate necessity to use the human reserves of the conquered Soviet territory to the fullest extent. Should we not succeed in obtaining the necessary amount of labor on a voluntary basis, we must immediately institute conscription or forced labor...... The complete employment of all prisoners of war, as well as the use of a gigantic number of new foreign civilian workers, men and women, has become an indisputable necessity for the solution of the mobilization of the labor program in this war.'\nContinuing with the quotation from the IMT decision:\n\".... As the dominant member of the Central Planning Board, which had supreme authority for the scheduling of German production and the allocation and development of raw materials, Speer took the position that the Board had authority to instruct Sauckel to provide laborers for industries under its control and succeeded in sustaining this position over the objection of Sauckel. The practice was developed under which Speer transmitted to Sauckel an estimate of the total number of workers needed. Sauckel obtained the labor and allocated it to the various in dustries in accordance with instructions supplied by Speer.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3114, "page_number": "2506", "date": "16 April 1947", "date_iso": "1947-04-16", "text": "\"Speer knew when he made his demands on Sauckel that they would be supplied by foreign laborers serving under compulsion. He participated in conferences involving the extension of the slave labor program for the purpose of satisfying his demands. He was present at a conference held during 10 and 12 August 1942 with Hitler and Sauckel at which it was agreed that Sauckel should bring laborers by force from occupied territories where this was necessary to satisfy the labor needs of the industries under Speer's control. Speer also attended a conference in Hitler's headquarters on January 4, 1944, at which the decision was made that Sauckel should obtain'at least 4 million new workers from occupied territories' in order to satisfy the demands for labor made by Speer, although Sauckel indicated that he could do this only with help from Himmler.\n\"Sauckel continually informed Speer and his represent atives that foreign laborers were being obtained by force. At a meeting of March 1, 1944, Speer's deputy questioned Sauckel very closely about his failure to live up to the obligation to supply four million workers from occupied territories. In some cases Speer demanded laborers from specific foreign countries. Thus, at the conference 1012 August 1942, Sauckel was instructed to supply Speer with 'a further million Russian laborers for the German armament industry up to and including October 1942.' At a meeting of the Central Planning Board on 22 April 1943, Speer discussed plans to obtain Russian laborers for use in the coal mines, and flatly vetoed the suggestion that this labor deficit should be made up by German labor.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3115, "page_number": "2507", "date": "16 April 1947", "date_iso": "1947-04-16", "text": "Speer argued that he advocated the reorganization of the labor program to place a greater emphasis on utilization of German labor in war production in Germany and on the use of labor in occupied countries in local production of consumer goods formerly produced in Germany. Speer took steps in this direction by establishing the so-called 'blocked industries' in the occupied territories which were used to produce goods to be shipped to Germany. Employees of these industries were immune from deportation to Germany as slave laborers and any worker who had been rodered to go to Germany could avoid deportation if he went to work for a blocked industry. This system, although somewhat less inhumane than deportation to Germany, was still illegal. The system of blocked industries played only a small part in the over-all slave labor program, although Speer urged its cooperation with the slave labor program, knowing the way in which it was actually being administered. In an official sense, he was its principal beneficiary and he constantly urged its extension.\n\"Speer was also directly involved in the utilization of forced labor as Chief of the Organization Todt. The Organization Todt functioned principally in the occupied areas on such projects as the Atlantic Nall and the construction of military highways, and Speer has admitted that he relied on compulsory service to keep it adequately staffed. He also used concentration camp labor in the industries under his control. He originally arranged to tap this source of labor for use in small out-of-the-way factories; and later, fearful of Himmler's jurisdictional ambitions, attempted to use as few concentration camp workers as possible.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3116, "page_number": "2508", "date": "16 April 1947", "date_iso": "1947-04-16", "text": "\"Speer was also involved in the use of prisoners of war in armament industries but contends that he utilized Soviet prisoners of war only in industries covered by the Geneva Convention.\n\"Speer's position was such that he was not directly concerned with the cruelty in the administration of the slave labor program, although he was aware of its existence. For example, at meetings of the Central Planning Board he was informed that his demands for labor wore so large as to necessitate violent methods in recruiting. At a meeting of the Central Planning Board on 30 October 1942, Speer voiced his opinion that many slave laborers who claimed to be sick were malingerers and stated: 'There is nothing to be said against SS and Police taking drastic steps and putting those known as slackers into concentration camps.'\" That completes the rather liberal quotation on the decision of the International Military Tribunal.\nUnder the provisions of Article X of Ordinance No. 7, these determinations of fact by the International Military Tribunal are binding upon this Tribunal \"in the absence of substantial new evidence to the contrary.\" Any new evidence which was presented was in no way contradictory of the findings of the International Military Tribunal, but, on the contrary, ratified and affirmed them.\nThe next question to be answered is whether or not the defendant Milch in this case knew that foreign slave labor and prisoners of war were being procured by Sauckel and used in the aircraft industry, which the defendant controlled. The defendant's own words, as gleaned from the minutes of the Central Planning Board and from his own testimony, conclusively answer this question in the affirmative.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3117, "page_number": "2509", "date": "16 April 1947", "date_iso": "1947-04-16", "text": "He testified that he know that prisoners of war wore employed in the airplane factory at Regensburg and that some twenty thousand Russian prisoners of war wore used to man anti-aircraft guns protecting the various plants. He stated further that he saw this typo of war prisoners manning 8.8 and 10.5 anti-aircraft guns at airplane factories in Luftgau 7 near Munich. Sauckel, the Minister Plenipotentiary for Labor, sat in on at least fifteen meetings of the Central Planning Board, over which the defendant presided, and discussed at great length and in elaborate detail the problems involved in procuring sufficient foreign laborers for the German war effort. He frankly disclosed the cruel and barbarous methods used in forcing civilians of the eastern countries into the Reich for war work. He related the difficulties and resistance which confronted him and the methods which he used and proposed to use in forcibly rounding up and transporting foreign workers. The advisability of using prisoners of war and inmates of concentration camps in the Luftwaffe was frankly discussed, with the defendant offering advice and suggestions as to the most effective methods to be used. In the face of this overwhelming evidence, disclosing page after page of discussion between Speer, Sauckel and the defendant in which the defendant urged more severe and coercive methods of procuring foreign labor from the east, it would violate all reason to conclude that he had no knowledge of the source of this labor or of the methods used in procuring it. His voice is constantly heard, pleading for more laborers from this source and clamoring for a larger share in Sauckel's labor pool. Hildebrand and Sagemeier for the coal mines, Rohland for the foundries, Kehrl for the coal and iron industries, Bruch and Becht for the rubber industry, Speer for the armament industry, and Milch for the aircraft industry - all those and others joined in a pagan chorus, in which the harmony was frequently strained, but all singing the same song, \"We need Laborers, Men and Women.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3118, "page_number": "2510", "date": "16 April 1947", "date_iso": "1947-04-16", "text": "We Don't Case where You Get Them, But Give Us More.\"\nAt the 54th Meeting of the Central Planning Board, Sauckel stated in the defendant's presence:\n\".... Thereupon I even proceeded to employ and train a whole batch of French male and female agents who for good pay just as was done in olden times for 'shanghaiing' went hunting for men and made them drunk by using liquor as well as words, in order to dispatch them to Germany.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3119, "page_number": "2511", "date": "", "date_iso": "", "text": "Moreover I charged some sole men with founding a special labor supply executive of our own, and this they did by training and arming with the help of the Higher SS and Police Fuehrer a number of natives, but I still have to ask the Munitions Ministry for arms for the use of these men. ...........\n\"..........I and my assistants in fact have sometimes seen things happen in France that I was forced to ask, is there no respect any more in Fr nee for the German Lieutenant with his 10 men. ....... We Germans must make an example of one case, and by reason of this law if necessary out Prefect or Burgomaster against the Wall, if he does not comply with the rules; otherwise no Frenchman at all will be dispatched to Germany.\"\nThe defendant contributed to the discussion by saying:\n\"...... As soon as you arrive the men run away to protect themselves from being sent to Germany.......... The men even then will be whisked away unless quite another authority and power is on the watch, and this can only be the army itself. ......I can find no remedy out that the army should assert itself ruthlessly.\"\nAs indicating that the defendant was not indifferent to the problem, at the same meeting, in referring to procuring labor from Italy, he offered the following suggestion:\n\"We could take under German administration the entire food supply for the Italians and tell them: only he get any food who either works in a protected factory (that is, a factor in Italy manufacturing German war materiel) or goes to Germany.\"", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3120, "page_number": "2512", "date": "16 April 1947", "date_iso": "1947-04-16", "text": "Later in the same conference, the defendant made another contribution to the solution of the problem of foreign labor, saying:\n\"Now during the transfer it is necessary to see that the people really do arrive and do not ran away before or daring the transfer. If a transport has left a town and has not arrived, 500 to 600 persons from this place must be arrested and sent to Germany as prisoners of war. Such a thing is taken talked about everywhere. If actions like this and other similar ones are carried out often, they would exert a certain pressure. The whole thing would be made easier, if we had control of food.\"\nAt the 53rd Meeting of the Central Planning Board (February 16, 1944), the defendant stated:\n\"Our best new engine is made 88% by Russian prisoners of war and the other 12% by German men and women.\"\nInstances could be multiplied in which the defendant not only listened to stories of enforced labor from eastern civilians and other prisoners of war and thereby became aware of the methods used in procuring such labor, but in which he himself urged more stringent and coercive means to supplement the swindling supply of labor in the Luftwaff As Germany's plight became more desperate, her loss of military personnel presented an alarming dilemma, resulting in the defection of thousands of workmen to the armed forces. This resulted in a shifting of the dilemma to industry, and spurs were put to the labor procurement officers, headed by the implacable Sauckel, cast aside all restraint and set out systematically to herd into the Reich any human being who could contribute to Germany's war effort. Under Sauckel's whip, no means no ever harsh were overlooked, and no person however exempt was spared.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3121, "page_number": "2513", "date": "16 April 1947", "date_iso": "1947-04-16", "text": "The defense on this count of the indictment is ingenious bat unconvincing. As to the use of prisoners of war, the defendant testified that he had been advised by some unidentified person high in the National Socialist Councils that it was not unlawful to employ prisoners of war in war Industries. The defendant was an old and experienced soldier, and his testimony revealed that he was well acquainted with the provisions of the Geneva and Hague Treaties on this subject, which are plain and unequivocal. In the face of this knowledge, the advice which he claims to have received should have raised grave suspicions in his mind. Presenting, an entirely different aspect to his defense, he testifies that many of the Russian prisoners of war volunteered to serve in the war industries and apparently en joyed the opportunity of manufacturing munitions to be used against their fellow countrymen and their allies.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3122, "page_number": "2514", "date": "16 April 1947", "date_iso": "1947-04-16", "text": "Other Russian prisoners of war, he states, were discharged as such and immediately enrolled as civilian workers. The photographs introduced in evidence, however, show that they still retained their Russian army uniforms, which makes their status as civilians suspect. Be that as it may, it does nor adequately answer the charge that hundreds of thousands of Polish prisoners of war were cast into concentration camps and parceled out to the various war factories, nor the further fact that thousands of French prisoners of war were compelled to labor the most harrowing conditions for the Luftwaffe.\nAs to the French civilian workers who were employed at war work in Germany after the conquest of France, it is the contention of the defendant that these workers were supplied by the French Government under a solemn agreement with the Reich. It is claimed with a straight face that the Vichy Government, headed by Laval, entered into an international compact with the German Government to supply French laborers for work in Germany. This contention entirely overlooks the fact that the Vichy Government was a mere puppet set up under German domination, which, in full collaboration with Germany, took its orders from Berlin. Tho position of the defendant seems to be that, if any force or coercion was used on French citizens, it was exerted by their own government, but this position entirely overlooks the fact that the transports which brought Frenchmen to Germans were manned by German armed guards and that upon their arrival they were kept under military guard provided by the Wehrmacht or the SS.\nIt was sought to disguise the harsh realities of the German foreign labor policy by the use of spacious legal and economic terms, and to make such policy appear as the exercise of conventional labor relations and Labor law. The fiction of a \"labor contract\" was frequently resorted to, especially in the operations of the Todt Organization, which implied that foreign workers were given a free choice to work or not to work for Germany military industry. This, of course, was purely fictitious, as is shown by the fact that thousands of these \"contract workers\" jumped from the trains transporting them to Germany and fled into the woods.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3123, "page_number": "2515", "date": "16 April 1947", "date_iso": "1947-04-16", "text": "Does anyone believe that the vast hordes of Slavic Jews who labored in Germany's war industries were accorded the rights of contracting parties? They were slaves, nothing loss - kidnapped, regimented, herded under armed guards, and worked until they died from disease, hunger and exhaustion. The idea of any Jew being a party to a contract with Germans was unthinkable to the National Socialists. Jews were considered as outcasts and were completely at the mercy of their oppressors. Exploitation was merely a convenient and profitable means of extermination, to the end that, \"when this war ends, there will be no more Jews in Europe\". As to non-Jewish foreign labor, with few exceptions they were deprived of the basic civil rights of free men: they were deprived of the right to move freely or to choose their place of residence; to live in a household with their families; to rear and educate their children; to marry; to visit public places of their own choosing; to negotiate, either individually or through representatives of their own choice, the conditions of their own employment; to organize in trade unions; to exercise free speech or other free expression of opinion; to gather in peaceful assembly; and they were frequently deprived of the right to worship according to their own conscience. All these are the sign-marks of slavery, not free employment under contract.\nThe German nation, before the ascendancy of the NSDAP, had repeatedly recognized the rights of civilian in occupied countries. At the Hague Peace Conference of 1907, an amendment was submitted by the German delegate, Maj. Gen. von Gundell, which read:", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3124, "page_number": "2516", "date": "16 April 1947", "date_iso": "1947-04-16", "text": "\"A belligerent is likewise forbidden to compel the nationals of the adverse party to take part in the operations of war directed against their country, even when they have been in his service before the commencement of the war.\"\nThe German manual for war on land (Kreigsbrauchin Landrecht. ed. 1902) stated:\n\"The inhabitants of an invaded territory are persons endowed with rights ...... subject to certain restrictions ......... but who otherwise may live free from vexations and, as in time of peace, under the protection of the laws.\"\nDuring the First World War, an order of the German Supreme Command (Oct. 3, 1916) provided for the deportation of Belgian vagrants and idlers to Germany for work, but specified that such labor was not to be used in connection with operations of war. The order resulted in such a storm of protest that it was at once abandoned by the German authorities.\nIt cannot be contended, of course, that foreign workers were entitled to comforts or luxuries which were not accorded German workers. It is also recognized that, especially during the litter part of the war, there was a universal shortage of food and fuel throughout the Reich and in the discomforts arising therefrom foreign workers were bound to share. But it is an undoubted fact that the foreign workers were subjected to cruelties and torture and the deprivation of decent human rights merely because they were aliens. This was not true in isolated instances, but was universal and was the working out of the German attitude toward those whom it considered inferior peoples. If any decent human consideration was shown these workers, it was merely to maintain their productivity and did not stem from any humanitarian considerations.\nThe Tribunal therefore finds the defendant guilty of the war crimes charged in Count One of the Indictment, to wit, that he was a principal in, accessory to, ordered, abetted, took a consenting part in and was connected with, plans and enterprises involving slave labor and deportation to slave labor of the civilian populations of countries and territories occupied by the German armed forces, and in the enslavement, deportation, ill-treatment and terrorization of such persons and further that the defendant was a principal in, accessory to, ordered, abetted, took a consenting part in, and was connected with, plans and enterprises involving the use of prisoners of war in war operations and work having a direct relation to war operations.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3125, "page_number": "2517", "date": "16 April 1947", "date_iso": "1947-04-16", "text": "THE PRESIDENT:Presiding Judge continuing:\nCount Three of the Indictment charges the defendant with crimes against humanity committed against \"German nationals and nationals of other countries.\" Sufficient proof was not adduced as to such offenses against German nationals to justify an adjudication of guilt on that ground. As to such crimes against nationals of other countries, the evidence shows that a large number of Hungarian Jews and other nationals of Hungary and Rumania, which countries were occupied by Germany but were not belligerents, were subjected to the same tortures and deportations as were the nationals of Poland and Russia. In Count One of the Indictment these acts are charged as war crimes and have heretofore been considered by the Tribunal under that count in this judgment. In the judgment of the International Military Tribunal (Vol. I, Trial of the Major War Criminals, p. 254), the court stated:\n\"From the beginning of the war in 1939, war crimes were committed on a vast scale which were also crimes against humanity.\"\nThis is a finding of law and an interpretation of Control Council Law No. 10, with which this Tribunal is in full accord.\nOur conclusion is that the same unlawful acts of violence which constituted war crimes under Count One of the Indictment also constitute crimes against humanity as alleged in Count Three of the Indictment. Having determined the defendant to be guilty of war crimes under Count One, it follows, of necessity, that he is also guilty of the separate offense of crimes against humanity, as alleged in Count Three, and this Tribunal so determines.", "speakers": [ "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3126, "page_number": "2518", "date": "16 April 1947", "date_iso": "1947-04-16", "text": "In exculpation, the defendant states that he was a German soldier and that whatever was done by him or with his knowledge or consent was done in pursuance of a national military policy promulgated by Hitler and in obedience to military orders. He protests that, no matter how violently he disagreed with the methods used by the German Reich in the furthering of its policy of aggressive war, he was helpless to extricate himself and had no alternative except to stay with the venture to the bitter end. It is true that withdrawal may involve risks and dangers, but these are incidental to the original affiliation with the unlawful scheme. He who elects to participate in a venture which may result in failure must make his election to abandon the enterprise if it is not to his liking or to stay as a participant, and win or lose according to the outcome.\nMuch significance must be attached to the meeting of May 23, 1939, at which the defendant was admittedly present and in which Hitler spoke at great length as to his plans for the subjugation of friendly minor nations and the ultimate conquest of Europe. A purported record of the events at this meeting has been introduced in evidence and has been found to be reliable and accurate by the' International Military Tribunal. The defendant has throughout insisted that this record is spurious and was made by Schmundt long after the occasion which it records. Of course, it was never anticipated that this record, which was marked \"Top Secret, To Be Transmitted by Officer Only,\" would ever be captured and its contents become known. It is not surprising that those who sat and listened to the astounding program of the Fuehrer now wish that they had been absent. It cannot be denied that there was a meeting of some kind which the defendant attended and at which the Fuehrer spoke, and further that it was hold a few short months before the actual invasion of Poland, as forecast in the report of the meeting. The Schmundt paper does not pretend to be a verbatim report of Hitler's exact words, but certainly all of the diabolical plans which it reveals were not manufactured by Schmundt out of thin air, attributed to Hitler, and then marked \"Top Secret\". Even if Hitler said only a small part of what is attributed to him by Schmundt, there was enough said to advise and warn a man of the defendant's intelligence and experience that mischief was afoot.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3127, "page_number": "2519", "date": "16 April 1947", "date_iso": "1947-04-16", "text": "Every sentence shrieks of war. The record hints at nothing else, and, if all references to conquest and war and world domination are eliminated, Hitler did not speak at all. At this early date, the defendant must be charged with knowledge that a war of aggression, to be ruthlessly pursued, was planned. This, then, was the time for him to have made his decision - the decision which confronts every man daily - to be honorable or dishonorable. Life consists quite generally in making such decisions. As an old soldier, schooled in the code of war and well aware of the principles to which an honorable soldier must adhere, he sat complacently and listened to a proposed program which violated national honor, personal integrity and the moral code of an honest soldier. He made his choice and elected with the tyrant.\nWhen the defendant joined the National Socialist Party in 1933, Germany was in the throes of dire economical and political distress and was burdened by a myriad of political parties, each with its separate program and all functioning at cross-purposes. The defendant elected to affiliate with the NSDAP because, he testified, he believed it offered the most likely agency for bringing order out of chaos. But very soon he must have realized that he had joined a band of villains whose program contemplated every crime in the calendar. The Nazi code was not a secret. It was published and proclaimed by the party leaders in long harangues to the people; decrees a and directives were broadcast; the infamous Streicher was spreading anti-Jewish obscenities throughout the Reich in \"Der Stuermer\"; Roehm and a large number of the SA were murdered by Hitler's orders;", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3128, "page_number": "2520", "date": "16 April 1947", "date_iso": "1947-04-16", "text": "hundreds of German citizens' were cast into concentration camps for \"political reeducation,\" without hearing or opportunity for defense; the iniquitous Gestapo stormed through the land, with power over life and liberty which could not be questioned; in public view Jews were beaten and killed, their synagogues burned and their stores destroyed. The Party proclaimed its objectives from the house tops and verified them by open public conduct throughout the Reich. The significant fact which must not be overlooked is that all these things happened before the war was launched, at a time when there was no claim upon the loyalty of the defendant as a soldier to protect his homeland at war. He protests that he never subscribed to the Master Race philosophy, but 13 years before he joined the Party in 1933, its precepts and demands had been proclaimed, among which was Point 4:\n\"Only a member of the race can be a citizen. A member of the race can only be one who is of German blood, without consideration of creed. Consequently no Jew can be a member of the race.\"\nThe humblest citizens of Germany knew that the iniquitous doctrines of the Party were being implemented by ruthless acts of persecution and terrorism which occurred in public view. Thousands of obscure German citizens were only too well aware that they were living under the scrutiny of an army of spies and saw their friends and relatives summarily dispatched to concentration camps for the slightest suspicion of dissidence. The defendant did not live in a vacuum. He was not blind nor deaf. Long before 1939, long before his military loyalty was called into lay, long before the door withdrawal was closed, he could have seen the bloody handwriting on the wall, for murder and enslavement of his own countrymen was there written in blazing symbols.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3129, "page_number": "2521", "date": "16 April 1947", "date_iso": "1947-04-16", "text": "But he had taken on the crymson mantle of the Party, with all its ghastly implication, and he were it with glory and profit to himself to the end. Others with more courage and higher principles and with more loyalty to the ancient German ideals rebelled and withdrew from the brutal crew: Von Clausewitz Yorck von Wartenberg, Schlegelberger, Schmitt, Eltz von Ruebenach, Tesmer, These men in high positions had the character to repudiate great civil, and if in so doing they took risks and made sacrifies nevertheless, they made their choice to stand with decency and justice and honor, The defendant had his opportunity to join those who refused to do the evil bidding of an evil master, but he cast it aside and his professed repentance now comes too late.\nWhat a sordid of a civilized nation- the nation of Goethe and Hiene, of Beethoven and Chubert, even of Bismarck and von Hindenberg,- fawning and cringing at the feet of a small man with delusions of granduer: Even when madness in to intensify his frenzy and fear and defeat put spurs to his ferovity, they still said, \" We are his people. He is our immaculate leader.\" Men of large capacities, even genius, prostitute their talents before a puny renegade who used them impiously and paid off his puppets with medals and pelf. But the strutting menials stayed with him. So long as success was on the horizon, they bowed and scrapped and sought to out do each other in supine adulation. They tell us now, Hitler was wrong.\" But they told him that. Right or wrong, their only concern was, \" Can him the war? And what will it mean for me?\" They heard him proclaim as early as November, 1937, \" The question for Germany is where the greatest possible conquest could be made at the lowest possible cost,\" and they nodded and shouted, \"Heil Hitler,\" and maneuvered to get closer to him.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3130, "page_number": "2522", "date": "16 April 1947", "date_iso": "1947-04-16", "text": "Before the invasion of Poland, they heard this blood-thirsty tyrant say,\"In starting and making a war, not the right is what matters, but victory.\" And this defendant, as part of the unholy array, rolled up his sleeves and said \"Let me help. Give men and more men, no matter where you get them.\"\nIn a civilized state which recognizes the sanctity of human lives and human rights, no man - no group of men - should be endowed with omnipotence. The history of human relations, from Herod to Hitler, has repeatedly demonstrated this to be true. Omnipotence is only for God. Be a man over so wise, ever so benevolent, ever so trustworthy, there still exists in him the frailty, tho fallibility, the susceptibility to temptation that is inherent in every man. If the only protection against the tyranny of an autocrat is his own selfrestraint, that is not enough, for power feeds or power, and the temptation to stretch authority to its limit is irresistible.\nWhat, then, of the responsibility of those who bask in the reflected radiance of omnipotence, who get their sustenance from it and who arrogantly carry out its mandates and crush any resistance to it? Are they not the hands and limbs of the monster, carrying out the orders of the head? Surely, they cannot be allowed to detach themselves from tho corpus by saying, \"Those arms and legs are innocent - only the head is guilty.\"", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3131, "page_number": "2523", "date": "16 April 1947", "date_iso": "1947-04-16", "text": "In an authoritarian state, the head becomes the supreme authority for woe as well as weal. Those who subscribe to such a state submit to that principle. If they abjectly place all the power in the hands of one man, with me right reserved to check or limit or repudiate, they must accept the bitter with the sweet.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3132, "page_number": "2524", "date": "16 April 1947", "date_iso": "1947-04-16", "text": "This is especially true of those in high places in the state -- these who choose to enjoy the honor, the emoluments and the power of such high stations. By accepting such attractive and lucrative posts under a head whose newer they know to be unlimited, they ratify in advance his every act, good or bad. They cannot say at the beginning, \"The Fuehrer's decisions are final; we will have no voice in them; it is not for us to reason why; his will is law,\" and then, when the Fuehrer decrees aggressive war or barbarous inhumanities or broken covenants, to attempt to exculpate themselves by saying. \"Oh, we were never in favor of those things.\"\nOne cannot escape the conviction that, had the war terminated in victory for Germany, all of the acts of Hitler, including those related to the charges in this indictment, would have been hailed as stroke of genius, and that this defendant would now be elbowing his way into the front row of those claiming to have successfully and victoriously carried out Hitler's orders and policies - in fact, claiming co-authorship in many. But with Germany defeated and Hitler dead, it becomes naively convenient to take refuge in the flimsy claim that no one except Hitler was in favor of the invasion of Poland and Russia and France and the rape of Holland and Belgium and Norway and Denmark.\nThe defendant insist that he knew nothing of the atrocities and violence which were cumulating day by day throughout Europe. Being a good German, he says, he supinely obeyed the decree which forbade listening to foreign broadcasts or reading foreign periodicals. He surrendered to a political philosophy which outlawed the ordinary means of knowledge and which prevented the formation of rationalized opinion or judgment. No one might read or listen or talk except in predetermined channels. Ignorance was prescribed by law.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3133, "page_number": "2525", "date": "16 April 1947", "date_iso": "1947-04-16", "text": "The first weapon of tyranny is to keep its victims in darkness. The Germans were an intelligent, cultured people; they were not ignorant serfs. What a travesty to say that a people which has produced some of the greatest intellects in human history is not fit to be told the truth.\nDesperate and discouraged peoples, distraught with the crushing problems of hunger and insecurity, have always cried out for a miracle worker to lead them out of the wilderness. Then is the golden opportunity for the mountebank with bland promises and soothing phrases to provide a poisonous panacea for their distress. In their desperation they fail to realize that despotism has a way of beginning with benevolence and ends by being merely despotic. Marquerading in the mantle of a messiah, the wily opportunist lulls them into subscribing to some glib fuhrerprinzip which means, \"Ask no questions; leave everything to me.\" And when the debacle comes, they realize that they have left everything to him - honor, dignity, self-respect, liberty, even life itself - and they end up degraded, ashamed, impoverished and hopeless. But have type ended up wiser? The universal fear today is that in their desperation they will repeat the vicious process by saying, \"Last time we picked the wrong man. Let us seek a new messiah. He will save us.\" The lessons of one generation are quickly forgotten by the next, but the inexorable laws of nature are immutable. The tragic fruits of tyranny and intolerance will always be the moral decay of peoples and the degradation of human dignity.\nOver the heavy gates which shut in the hapless victims at Dachau is a legend reading, \"Work will set you free.\" The toil of slaves cannot set them free; it only serves to further enslave them.", "speakers": [], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3134, "page_number": "2526", "date": "16 April 1947", "date_iso": "1947-04-16", "text": "Come dry an enlightened German people will storm those gates and all others like then and recast them into an image of Truth - an imprerishable figure with eyes open and unbandaged. So long as Truth stands free and untarnished, no future Hitler will ever arise to deceive and degrade the German nation. Then there will never be another Dachau.\nEveryone will remain seated while the defendant is removed from the courtroom by the Marshal.\nThe Tribunal will be in recess until tomorrow morning at 9:30 promptly in this courtroom.\nTHE MARSHAL:This Tribunal is in recess until 0930 hours tomorrow morning.\n(Tim Tribunal adjourned until 17 April 1947, at 0930 hours.)", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3135, "page_number": "2527", "date": "17 April 1947", "date_iso": "1947-04-17", "text": "Official transcript of the American Military Tribunal in the matter of the United States of America against Erhard Milch, defendant, sitting at Nuernberg, Germany, on 17 April 1947, 0930-0935, Justice Toms presiding.\nTHE MARSHAL:Persons in the courtroom will please take their seats. The Honorable, the Judges of Military Tribunal II. Military Tribunal II is now in session. God save the United States of America and this honorable Tribunal. There will be order in the courtroom.\nTHE PRESIDENT:The case of the United States of America against Erhard Milch, Case Number 2. The defendant will stand. This Tribunal takes no pleasure in performing the duty which confronts it, but the deliberate enslavement of millions must not go unexpiated. The barbarous acts which have been revealed here originated in the lust and ambition of comparatively few men, but all Germans are paying and will pay for the degradation of their souls and the debasement of the German honor, caused by following the false prophets who led them to disaster.\nIt would be a travesty on justice to permit these false leaders, including this defendant, to escape responsibility for the deception and betrayal of their people. It would be even a greater injustice to view with complacence the mass graves of millions of men, women, and children whose only crime was that they stood in Hitler's way. Retribution for such crimes against humanity must be swift and certain. Future would-be dictators and their subservient satellites must know what follows their defilement of international law and of every type of decency and fair dealing with their fellowmen. Civilization will be satisfied with nothing less.\nIt is the sentence of this Tribunal that the defendant Erhard Milch be confined to the Rebdorf Prison for the remainder of his natural life.\nThe Marshal will remove the defendant from the courtroom. The Secretary General will record the sentence of the Tribunal which I hand him.\nThis Tribunal will now be in recess until 1:30 this afternoon in Courtroom 581.", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL", "THE PRESIDENT" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" }, { "seq": 3136, "page_number": "2528", "date": "17 April 1947", "date_iso": "1947-04-17", "text": "THE MARSHAL:Tribunal II is in recess until 1330 hours in Room 581.\n(A recess was taken until 1330 hours.)", "speakers": [ "THE MARSHAL" ], "trial_id": 2, "trial_name": "NMT 2 - Milch Case (Erhard Milch)" } ]